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[speaker001:] Is there a seconder? Seconded My Lord [clears throat]. I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name. Is there a seconder? [whispering] [] Councillor My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] All those in favour that the vote be now put? Fifty Those against?... That's carried, fifty to thirty six. [whispering] [] Those in favour of amendment H moved by Councillor? Those against? [whispering] that's lost, thirty four to fifty [] [whispering] thirty four to f []. That that's lost, thirty four to fifty. Those in favour of amendment G moved by Councillor? [whispering] [] The amendment moved by Councillor. Those in favour? [whispering] two [] Two. Those against? [whispering] there's a lot more than two [] Well, there's a lot more than two. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor. Come come? They don't really know here wh [whispering] [] [whispering] fifty four [] Those against? [whispering] yes [] That's lost, thirty four to fifty. Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor D C. Those in favour please show? [speaker002:] [shouting] [] [speaker001:] [whispering] [] Mhm? Those against? [whispering] thirty six [] Fifty [whispering] that's carried fifty to thirty six [] That is carried fifty votes to thirty six, now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] those against [] Those against? [whispering] carried [] [whispering] that's carried fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Item fourteen on the agenda, Community Council. In a in accordance with standing order A twelve C in force at the time, Councillor notice of motion on Community Council was referred by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Policy and Resources Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document M referred to on the agenda. At the same Council meeting an amendment er to the motion was formally moved by Councillor and seconded and was also submitted to the Committee. Call upon Council to move amendment I standing in his name. Have I a seconder? [whispering] [] [tape breaks here] fifteen B I move the vote now be put. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Er, those in favour of the substantive motion please show. It's Councillor motion. Those against? [whispering] fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Item fifteen on the agenda, sum of poll tax. In accordance with standing order A twelve C in force at the time Councillor notice of motion on sum of poll tax was referred to th by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to Policy and Resources Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document N referred to on the agenda. At the same Council meeting amendments to motion were formally moved by Councillor and ex-Councillor respectively, and seconded and were also submitted to the Committee. [whispering] [] Mhm? [whispering] [] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Those in favour the vote be now put? Yes [whispering] those against may now vote [] Those against? [whispering] thirty six, carried fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty thirty six. Now then, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor please show. Well, those against. I rather think there's more than two. Er, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor and submitted to Council on the twenty third of April? [whispering] [] Those against? Yes [whispering] [] That's lost, fifty four to thirty two Thirty four Thirty four f thirty four fifty two. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] those against Lord Mayor [] Those against? Fifty thirty six [whispering] that's carried [] That's carried [whispering] fifteen thirty six [] Fifteen votes to thirty six [whispering] [] We move on to motion, notices of motion. The first one is on pr is on proportional representation for all elections. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Moved Lord Mayor Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment K standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order ei [whispering] [] I call upon Councillor to move amendment L standing in his name. I move my Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? [whispering] do it at this meeting [] Deal this meeting my Lord Mayor. [whispering] [] [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded? [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Those in favour the vote be now put? Those against? [whispering] carried fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty thirty six. Now move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment L moved by Councillor? [whispering] fifty thirty [] Against? [whispering] they're a bit weary over here [whispering] carried fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six and now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of a substantive motion please show [whispering] those against [] Those against? [whispering] fifty [] [whispering] fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Lord Chancellor's proposal on Legal Aid. I call upon Councillor to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Mhm? I call upon Councillor to move amendment M standing in his name. Moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Vote that it be dealt with at this meeting. Seconded? Those in favour of it being dealt with at this meeting? That's carried. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor are you nominating Councillor? Thank you Lord Mayor Ok Twenty seven please My Lord Mayor [whispering] steady steady [] This is a subject which affects many people in this city and is another characteristic act by a Tory Government that acts in a callous way. On the second of July of this year, the Home Secretary made a statement to Parliament on the subject of asylum. By coincidence this had been followed by an orchestrated campaign in the gutter press stirring up fears about asylum seekers hear hear Now, this isn't about asylum seekers because on the back of that, on the back of that statement, without warning, the Home Secretary announced proposals to change the publicly funded arrangements for advice and representation in asylum and immigration cases. In short, to remove the entitlement for legal aid for this entire area of work. Now, as a Council and as a group, I believe that we should oppose the removal of the green form scheme. This provided initial low cost independent legal advice. The removal of this will mean that thousands of residents will be unable to obtain the legal assistance in matters like arranging family visits or to look into their own circumstances. There is, in this city, a pool of expertise that is built on local provision, provided by local people, Solicitors, Law Centre and others. It provides a choice of effective and independent advice locally. Now, why is this happening? Well, on the face of it, we have an obsession with cutting legal aid. The British legal system is already in a bit of a sorry state but this is only part of the story because we are faced with a creaking Government bureaucracy that has often been shown by the Higher Courts to be acting in an illegal and unfair manner. So the Government therefore seeks to use its powers to stop people gaining access to the law and getting advice from local sources. In its place they have a very good organisation called the United Kingdom Immigration Advice Service and I will quote a fax I have received from them. U K I A S was not consulted about this proposal beforehand and have so far not received any details about it. They are a one hundred percent Home Office funded organisation. They have not right to take and fund matters to the Higher Courts to review the decisions of the Government, the executive in other words, and they themselves have no idea how they're meant to fulfil this role that the Government sees them as having. This is basically a fig leaf. We need a comprehensive and effective system of access to advice for this in legal aid. Mister obviously when he didn't consult the U K I A S betrayed the cynicism which characterises most of his behaviour. We're actually talking here about family unit and human rights. We're actually re t talking about reducing the access to justice because if w if these proposals go through, your access to justice will depend on the size of your wallet and it is actually a restriction on liberty. People must be able to get the representation they trust and not that prescribed by the Government, whose in administration you may eventually end up challenging. This proposal sets a dangerous anti-democratic precedent. Now, if we take a look at Council, this Authority that we all know and love so dearly. We rightly have to live in an environment of audits, commissions, Ombudsman and legal review in the course of our conduct. Right. That's quite right and proper and all of us would support that. Now just imagine the outcry if Council had the power to close down every organisation, stop funding every organisation that criticised it and reviewed its actions. Because that is exactly what the Government is seeking to do with this legal aid proposal. It's transferring a limited provision of legal aid into a grant to an auth to an organisation which it controls and funds, which is not allowed to do the work that is currently done under the legal aid scheme. It is the characteristic of the kind of Governments that have just been turned over beyond the line, in Europe. So what I'm hoping that this Council will do is send a message up to White Hall that this is an abuse of executive power to stifle the challenges of t to the authority. It's maladministration. If extended, this means that talk of a citizens charter is utter nonsense. What kind of citizens charter is introduced on the back of denying you the right to even challenge the people who are providing the services, or could restrict the right of your family to be together, or the right for you to travel to the country where you've been living? It undermines the much tarnished and now fatally flawed British system of justice. How can you defend a system of justice that prevents you getting anywhere near it unless you have a large wallet. So on this side we actually believe in positive rights. No talk of the tittle tattle of erm the citizens charter that gets watered down one day and becomes something else the other day and you might get a free train ticket out of it some time. We're not about cynically smothering access to justice with a cynical morass of restrictions cut and downright cynical regard for the rights of people who're often in a vulnerable position. In opposing this motion the amend that you're about to hear about is actually supporting restrictions on justice. This this Council has now committed itself to a equality of opportunity and social justice. It is only natural that when we get back to power this cynical measure from the Lord Chancellor will be abolished. I look forward to that day. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, I must confess to being quite surprised by the incredible naivety and complete lack of understanding that's obviously rampant on the benches opposite with most of the items we've dealt with today. I suggest that in future Councillors and concentrate on engaging their brains before they start putting pen to paper [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] and coming up with a travesty like this that masquerades as a motion to the Council. The next time they feel it necessary to spout off in such an ill-informed, ill-advised and half-cocked manner over the issue of immigration, perhaps Councillors and should remind themselves that some of the most severe immigration laws were actually introduced by a Labour Home Secretary. Where then with their pathetic bleatings of contempt, or don't you go back as far as er. Quite simply what the Government intend to achieve through the proposed legislation is the introduction of new measures designed to s to halt the systematic abuse of immigration procedures by people who falsely claim asylum in Britain. The effect of these new measures will be to allow a substantial acceleration and simplification, which everybody's been calling for, of decision making in asylum and immigration cases. The Government's aim is to decide all cases within a matter of months so that all those affected do not have to wait an inordinate length of time to ascertain their legal status in the U K. It's obvious to everyone not too blind to see that such changes are vital to the mounting pressures on the existing system hear hear The number of people seeking asylum in the United Kingdom has risen sharply from five thousand a year in 1988 to over thirty thousand in 1990. From January to May this year twenty one thousand applications were received. These figures, if projected forward, indicate fifty thousand applications for asylum could be received during 1991. In May 1991 three thousand eight hundred and four new asylum applications were received. The majority of these, three thousand one hundred and twenty three, were made by applicants already in the U K who presented themselves at United Kingdom Immigration Nationality offices to request asylum. There is clearly refutable evidence to suggest that the great majority, as many as seventy five percent, of all such cases are not genuine. In only twenty five percent of United Kingdom cases do applicants have a well-founded fear of persecution. The criteria for seeking refugee status is based on the 1951 United Nations Convention on Refugees. Mot applicants wish to remain in the United Kingdom for economic reasons and use asylum seeking to circumvent normal immigration procedures. This has resulted in an immense backlog. There are currently fifty thousand undecided cases and the backlog is growing at over three thousand cases a month. The average decision time is already over sixteen months and getting worse. Action is needed now, to both tackle the backlog and deter more bogus applications coming in. That action has now been proposed by the Home Secretary. It includes the employing of up to five hundred extra staff to help speed up the initial determination of claims. It also includes plans to withdraw advice and assistance under legal aid green form scheme in asylum and other immigration cases. Necessary legal advice and assistance will be available from the United Kingdom Immigration Advisory Service whose grant will be substantially increased. Controls at entry ports will be strengthened to improve identification of applicants who arrive from safe countries. Carriers bringing passengers from abroad without valid documentation will be charged at double the current rate. Improved document checks abroad and better screening procedures for identifying undocumented asylum seekers will be introduced. None of these measures will prevent the entry into the United Kingdom of the genuine immigrant or asylum seeker. These are the very people who will most benefit from the proposed changes. The genuine people. They are precisely the ones who will gain from the accelerated handling of clearly unfounded cases. The Home Secretary has made it absolutely clear that he remains committed to meeting our obligation to genuine refugees. Asylum procedures exist to ensure the protection of those genuinely at risk, but they are in danger of being undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration. The many spoiling it for the few yet again. Lord Mayor, it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. Thank you Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Lord Mayor, under standing orders A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor. Those in favour? [whispering] seven [] Mhm? Eh? Is there forty seven? just walking back. [whispering] yeah, forty eight [] Against? Carried, fourteen to thirty two That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. Is that clear? Have you got that? Thank you. Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. Now, the evidence is very clear. I'll produce the evidence for you. That's not a worry. Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. But let me give you two concrete things you could do. Number one, you could lobby the Government to remove the twenty percent. Now that would, in fact, help the poor. It would also ensure that we were much more financially secure. Now the the control of the audit commission is on record as stating quite clearly that it is not possible to account the equation. It costs us more to collect it than we actually get in. The second thing we need to do is to lobby for the repeal of the unwinding of the safety net. The further twenty five pounds that will have to go on the poll tax this year will cost this Council eight point one million. Now, it's illogical for a so-called Government that's in power with all the financial expertise to talk about getting shut of it and leave it in to cause misery to people. Let me turn quickly to the out turn figures that were in P and R. The capital programme is already on line, although it was grossly underfunded. In terms of the revenue output it's a hundred and forty three thousand below the estimates and it was agreed that any variations would be carried over into next year. I accept that as a reasonable thing to do. The latter is a is a direct result of setting a poll tax which was clearly and blatantly an under provision to provide decent services in this city. There is one other point I'd just like because yo you've been on about Labour controlled Councils. There's a very interesting table which is now produced by the D of E, not by Labour Weekly or anybody else, which lays out the amounts of money that are set aside in order for the collection. Conservative in, three times that for which we put on for and let me remind you again that out of that seventeen pounds, you put eleven on, not us, you put it on. You put eleven pounds, that's the addition of we we accepted that and we. No problem, I stand I stand as I did before and I accept that that's extra. As regards to the non-payment, we are, fifty four pounds goes on in, forty three pounds goes on in, thirty seven pounds goes on in and, all of them greater than that which we have put on simply in order to recollect the poll tax. So let the Tories talk about a collectable tax. They've no idea. Now, what else did I want? Ah yes, I've said that. That's great. Now then Now, I wanna just deal finally then. Pardon? That's right. In conclusion my Lord Mayor, I think the controlling group seriously has quite ably demonstrated its ability to manage an economy both effectively and compassionately. That's very very important. And in spite of the major reorganisations in education and planned services arrangements, no jobs have been lost and they're at it again on this amendment [shouting] lies absolute lies and you cannot stand, you lied in P and R, and you're lying now on a speculative business about people's [] [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] We will continue, we will continue, you've lied before and you'll lie again, and we will continue to consult widely with the electorate and the Trade Unions on local economy, on the local economy that brings in financial matters which affect them. We can live we can live and demonstrate that there is an equation where services, quality service, area degeneration and job protection can be achieved within difficult resources. There's a simple message from today's Council, if you vote Tory, you're voting yourself out of work. So I would say to this Council [shouting] when they were in power they set compulsive competitive tendering that sent thirteen hundred people down the road. Now that is evidence, that's the kind of situation you've got while Tories are in power. Everybody in the Council should know that. I move my Lord Mayor, with great pride that this amendment be supported and final and finally we will to the electorate, as we did last year, and we will win and we'll have more success next year than we had this year. I so move []. [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, after that, what else can I do but to move? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Those in favour of amendment R moved by Councillor? Those against? [whispering] that's carried [] Th that's lost, thirty one to fifty. Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor? Those against? [whispering] thirty seven [] [whispering] that's carried fifty to thirty two [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Those against? That's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Next item is er standards and choice in education. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Moved Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Councillor to move amendment S I move Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Call upon Councillor to move amendment T [tape breaks here] to move amendment U standing in his name. Seconded? My Lord Mayor. That that the matter is not urgent and should be dealt with only at the receipt of a vote from Education Committee, I move A standing order A thirteen E be suspended for this meeting and B the motion and amendment be referred to the Education Committee for report without being debated at this meeting. I so move Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor Cou Councillor will you please sit down. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor will you [shouting] please sit down [] Sit down It's high time, it's high time the leader of the Conservative Party le learnt to recognise that the Lord Mayor was on his feet and should sit down You dis you have behaved disgracefully. We'll move to the m move to vote on the motion as moved by Councillor. Those in favour? I didn't know we'd any chickens here [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] [whispering] carried, fifty to thirty two [] That is carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Next item is the city hall pay awards. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment B standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? We hear it now my Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour?... My Lord Mayor, I move that the motion and amendment be referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for that Committee to consider the matter and make a decision and that the right of any member of that Committee to refer the matter to Council be removed under standing order A twenty three. I so move my Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor Those in favour? [tape breaks here] fifty votes to thirty two. Next one is the police complaints committee. Call upon Councillor to move the am motion together with amendment X standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment W standing or s in accordance with standing order A thirteen C this mo [tape breaks here] In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? [tape breaks here] All those in favour? My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move that the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here]

[speaker001:] Good afternoon. Item one on the agenda is the closure, disclosure of interest. Call upon the Director of Legal Services. [tape breaks here] There are dispensations from the Secretary of State for the Environment for Councillors,,,, and because either of their own or their spouse's employment in the Health Service. That dispensation enables the members to to speak during the debate but not to vote, me having first recorded a disclosure of interest by those members. Does any other member or officer wish to disclose an interest in any matters to be dealt with at this meeting? Item two in minutes. I move that the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the sixteenth of July be signed as a correct record. Is there a seconder? Lord Mayor N all those in favour please show. Item three on the agenda, apologies for absence. Er, Councillors,, and my Lord Mayor. Are there any other Item four, renouncements. Copies of my announcements have been circulated to all members of the Council on the blue seats. However, I will read them to you. I have been asked by the building custodian acting on behalf of the fire service to inform you that, should the fire alarm sound, you are required to leave the building in an orderly fashion by the nearest exit. No-one will be allowed to stay or return until the building has been checked. It is my sad duty to inform members that Doctor, former City Treasurer of County Borough Council and an Honorary Freeman of the City died in August. I have written to Mrs on behalf of the Council expressing our sorrow and extending a message of support to her in her and her family at this sad time. I would like to invite members to stand and join me in a few moments silence in memory of Doctor. [tape breaks here] Thank you. On behalf of the Council I would like to offer sincere congratulations to and for their recent successes in the Britain in Bloom competition. Members may be aware that received the National Britain in Bloom award for 1990 in the town category and, as a result, were entered in the o entente fleural, a European competition similar to that of Britain in Bloom. I was very proud to say that finished in second place, a very creditable performan achievement, as I am sure members will agree. Members may also be aware that won the small town category in the in bloom competition, which resulted in entry to the National Britain in Bloom awards. Unfortunately were not successful in winning the small towns category on this occasion but nevertheless I am sure that members would want to congratulate on their considerable success in the regional finals of this prestigious competition. I have just learnt have recently achieved a cup double, being winners of the speedway star knockout cup and the B S P A cup, as well as finishing second in the Sunbright British League, their best performance ever. I am sure members will be aware speed speedway received financial assistance from the Council a few years ago when they ran into difficulties. It's a great tribute to the that they have managed triumph over adversity and achieved such tremendous results this season and I am sure that members would want me to place on record the Council's congratulations on their performance. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Good that we're doing something good in sport, isn't it?... Item five, inspection of internal documents. I call on the Director of Legal Ser [tape breaks here] There've been no complaints against restrictions, Lord Mayor. Petitions. First one is about dogs. I move that the petition to be presented from persons about opposing the making of byelaws and supporting of a poop scoop scheme be received. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor All in favour please show? That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward... Wel welcome to the meeting you may s you may speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready. Thank you. My Lord Mayor, ladies and gentlemen. I represent the recently formed responsible dog ownership group which consists of people from most areas of the metropolitan district, both dog owners and non dog owners. On behalf of this group I would like to present to the Council a petition containing in excess of two thousand signatures from people throughout the metropolitan district who object to the originally reported suggestion that Metropolitan Council are proposing to make byelaws requiring that all dogs should be kept on leads at all times in all public places. We are aware that the suggestion relating to all public places has now been changed to, on all land owned by Metropolitan Council but this does not allay our concern. In fact, in our view, it would only aggravate the situation even further if such a byelaw was to be adopted, as most people within the district do not know which land is owned by the Council and which is not. We do appreciate that it is reasonable to impose restrictions on dogs in such areas as children's playgrounds, flower beds etcetera and we do support the extension of the byelaws relating to dogs fouling footways and grass verges and also the byelaws relating to the removal of canine faeces. However, we feel that such measures as those being mooted would only lead to further problems. It is the view of many of the vets in the district, the R S P C A Inspectorate and other dog handling professionals, that dogs must have adequate natural exercise and they should be given the opportunity to run freely as frequently as possible. Failure to provide such opportunities does cause dogs to become more excitable and aggressive and this in turn reduces the level of control experienced by the handler. A dog constantly restrained is an unhappy dog and an unhappy dog is more likely to become a problem dog. The responsible dog ownership group has received correspondence on this matter from the Animal Shelter, which is the agency currently being used by the Government to register pit bull terriers. They also express concern regarding this suggestion. It is their view that such a measure will be very counter-productive. To introduce further byelaws, with all the attendant costs of application to the Home Off, with all the attendant costs of such things as application to the Home Office to enact the byelaw, the probability of requiring to post notices on all Council-owned land etcetera so that the public knows which is Council-owned land would, in the opinion of the responsible dog ownership group, be a waste of the charge payers' money as we believe that the Council already have sufficient powers to deal with any problems arising by reference to the existing pleasure grounds byelaws and or the Dangerous Dogs Act. It should be noted that this view has recently been confirmed by the Council successfully prosecuting a person under the 1954 Pleasure Ground Byelaw. We understand that there is a dog working party of Council officers already established and we would formally request that the responsible dog ownership group be allowed a representative on that working party to ensure that the views of the two thousand plus petitioners and over two hundred and fifty persons who have written individual letters on the subject to Mister of the recreation division are considered. We would also hope that, should there be a need in the future to make a decision in Council regarding application for such a byelaw, you, the members, will give proper consideration to the views I have expressed on behalf of the ro responsible dog ownership group. In conclusion, I'd like to thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to present our petition. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thank you. Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor? Seconded? All those in favour please show. Ok. It'll be mooted. Thank you very much.... The second petition is about nursery classes at first school. I move that the petition to be presented from persons requesting the provision of a nursery class at this school be received. Seconded Lord Mayor All in favour? Ok. That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward?... Welcome to the meeting. You must speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready. My Lord Mayor. This is a petition for a nurs nursery class within the first school. My name is, I'm the chair of governors. I'm supported in this application by, the chair of the, Mister, deputy chair, and Mrs and, parent governors. is a compact area, now isolated by the traffic from the trunk road. The population is around five thousand three hundred. A questionnaire circulated by the Friends has identified one hundred and forty children living close to the school whose parents would wish nursery provision for them. Only one parent did not wish provision. Not all of could be sampled by the questionnaire but comparison with the 1991 census figures suggests that the number of children in the catchment area could be over three hundred. Of the fifty two children entering the school in September 1991 only six percent had received nursery education, compared with thirty nine percent from families who have moved in to in the past. To attend nearby nurseries involves car transport to or since bus timing is unsuitable. Places in those nurseries are now fewer. The only pre-school provision within is a playgroup which does not have its own premises. They now have only five weekly sessions instead of six, to comply with recent legislation. The playgroup leasers support this petition and say that they would have a valuable role preparing the children for nursery education, feeling that the children at four plus need more than the s playgroup can offer. Forty six point five percent of the children within the school come from Council rented housing, well above the thirty eight percent criterion for the school to receive social disadvantage allowance. Families in this category are normally without transport and therefore excluded from facilities outside. Frequently, they are unable to afford the playgroup fees and therefore miss all pre-school experience. This makes worse the problems of disadvantage and over-stretched resources, including time demands on working mothers. The school now has an increasing number of entrants with special needs, including children with support, children with behavioural difficulties and children already statemented. If had a nursery, all of these children would be able to start their education in their own community, without the expense and the disruption of being taxied out through the traffic jams. From an education viewpoint, all the children of would benefit from a natural flow from nursery into reception classes. Parents could be involved sooner in the childrens' educations. Better behaviour patterns could be established in a familiar place. The school at present has no spare classroom space and no likelihood of the number of children in decreasing. There is, however, room for a new building an play area. We urge you to consider our request for a nursery to be attached to the first school to give the children a head start in their education. We present our petition of nine hundred and fifty six names. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Si sit down a minute love Yes, well, it's alright. I haven't f I have something to say first. Does any member who wish to move the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor? Councillor? All those in favour? That's clearly carried. Thank you very much. [clears throat] Now the third petition is one to deal with a pelican crossing at Avenue. I move the petition to be presented from pers from persons requesting the provision of a pelican crossing at Avenue be received. Is there is a seconder? Thank you. All in favour? That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward?... Welcome to the meeting. You may speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready... Lord Mayor, parents and staff at first school and local residents are requesting that the Council instal a pelican crossing on the site of the existing zebra crossing. There's been concern over this area for several years but nothing's actually been done. A similar request was approved three years ago but has never been implemented. Parents and residents were given the impression that something was going to be done and were very dismayed to find that nothing has been done yet, hence this petition. There has been one fatal accident on the crossing in recent years which was the tragic death of a young baby. In addition there have been several other accidents where cars have collided with each others. These are not actually recorded on police statistics but th nevertheless they could have been much more serious than in fact they were. I witnessed an accident where a vehicle collided into the back of another one, pushing it completely across the crossing. At the time there were parents and children waiting to cross over the crossing and it could have been much more serious. The crossing is situated on a very busy dual carriageway where the speed limit is forty miles an hour and I would point th point out this literature which says that at forty miles an hour, if children are knocked into, most children are killed. But in fact most of the vehicles travel at fifty or sixty miles an hour on this crossing. It's a very busy crossing. Some of the children at school went out to do a traffic count recently and there was so much volume of traffic that the children were not able to keep up with th putting the in the to keep up with the volume of traffic. Many motorists use the dual carriageway as an extension of the motorway. The dual carriageway is just of the motorway and people are gearing up to go on the motorway. The practice of having zebra crossings on any multi-lane road doesn't seem to be very common outside. Myself and my family have never seen it in our travels, bridges or or pelican crossings or subways would be provided instead. Visiting drivers to, after a few hours on the motorway, are hardly going to be looking for a zebra crossing on such a busy dual carriageway. We believe that the peli th the current zebra crossing is unfair and dangerous to both pedestrians and vehicle occupants. Heavy vehicles, slowing down to allow people to cross, are often overtaken by cars, unaware of the crossing and the reason for the slowing heavy vehicle. A bus stop just before the zebra crossing only confuses the issue further. A vehicle volunteering to stop at the zebra crossing can only stop one of the two lanes, with no control over the other. I've seen many examples of vehicles, further back, unaware of the situation, switching lanes and accelerating. Many people feel very strongly about the dangers. One resident I spoke to, whose house is immediately on the zebra crossing, reports that every day he dreads hearing the squealing of bl brakes and looking out of his window. Another local resident has had a child who's broken he broken his arm on the crossing when a car hit into him. A policeman who works in the area describes Avenue as a nightmare of a crossing and I and other parents who have to take children across would entirely agree with this. I cross the crossing eight times a day with my own two children and I would underline how hazardous it is. One lane, often heavy traffic, tends to stop while the other continues to rush past at speed and the pedestrians' view is obscured by the heavy traffic. It's very difficult with a parent with a pushchair or a double buggy and other children to bring across. Unaccompanied children also cross this crossing, and the elderly, and they are very vulnerable from vehicles which seem to appear out of nowhere. To conclude, the current zebra crossing is unfair to pedestrians and motorists. A previous request for a pelican crossing was approved in 1988 but was never implemented. Parents and staff at school, and local residents who use the crossing, are united in this petition for a pelican crossing to replace the current zebra crossing at the earliest opportunity. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Thank you. Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour. That's clearly carried. Thank you very much. Thank you... Item seven is membership of committees. I call upon Councillor to move a motion, details of which have been circulated. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded? All in agreement? Ok. Item eight, which is Policy and Resources Committee, there are no recommendations arising from the meeting on the twenty second of October. Which brings us on to item nine which is er employment action. I call upon Councillor to move the recommendations of the Community and Environment Services Committee, together with amendment A standing in his name. [tape breaks here] Second Second [tape breaks here] Call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in her name [tape breaks here] Councillor, I believe you want to nominate Councillor, do you? I'm doing it for you. Councillor? Thank you Lord Mayor. Michael Howard, Secretary of State for Unemployment, in announcing employment action in Parliament, stated, this Government, have placed policies designed to lead to job creation and they will succeed in the future as they they have succeeded in the past. With that sort of reference, it's no surprise that the Government's new plans to fiddle the unemployment figures is treated with disbelief and disdain. These policies have pushed unemployment up to two point five million and rising. That's despite thirty changes in the way that the unemployment figures are calculated. The real figure is closer to three and a half million. These policies have slashed manufacturing output and these policies have cut a massive two hundred and forty five million pound from the employment and youth training budgets for this year, which has led to a cut of eighty thousand places. When the issue of employment action was discussed at the Community and Environment Committee in September, Councillor was clinging desperately to her history books. She told us that in 1979 unemployment was increasing at the astronomical figure of two thousand three hundred a week. I will not seek to justify this, any more than I would expect the Tories to justify the three day week, the Suez Crisis or any other element of their sordid history, for what we are discussing is a situation facing thousands of people in this district today, and what we are gonna do to ensure that they have a future. The situation today is not that two thousand three hundred people are joining the dole queues every day but that ov every week, but over twenty thousand. In there are four hundred and seven jobs registered with the Job Centre and twenty three thousand five hundred and twenty six registered unemployed. The situation today is that there is not enough training places for the people who want them. The situation today is that many sixteen to eighteen year olds, who were unable to get a training place, are disbarred from getting income support, and the situation today is that this country has the lowest level of skilled workers in the European Community. And this is the result of Government policies that succeed. God help us when they fail. In the cuts in the training budget this year have led to over two hundred trainee places disappearing. One training organisation, which had taken a twenty three percent cut in funds in 1990 ninety one, had to take a further twenty percent cut this year, and the people who are worst affected by these cuts were the very people that the Tory Party had been crying crocodile tears over for so long. Women returners, the black and Asian community, people with physical disability and people with learning difficulties. They suffer disproportionately because when the cuts come it's the special needs support that many of these groups need that was the first to go. It was the help with literacy and numeracy. It was the help with English as a second language. It was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence. These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives. But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election. Panic in Tory Party central office. What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed? What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training? The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the budget. There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year Those against? [whispering] yes [] [tape breaks here] That is lost, thirty to forty nine. Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show. Please show [tape breaks here] That is carried, forty nine to thirty two. [clears throat]. We now move on to item ten on the agenda, Local Management of Schools. In accordance with standing order A twelve little C in force at the time, Councillor of m notice of motion on Local Management of Schools was referred by the Council t on twenty third of April 1991 [clears throat] to the Education Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in document T referred to on the agenda. At the same time, at the same Council meeting, three amendments to the motion were formally moved by Councillor, Councillor and ex-Councillor respectively and seconded and were also submitted to the Committee. I call upon Councillor to move amendment C standing in his name. [tape breaks here] Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, the Local Management of Schools scheme er was reviewed first in the light of consultation which went on during its first full year of operation. It was by then already obvious that the schools had overcome their first reservations er about what the scheme had to offer and it was so obvious that they deserved recognition for their efforts that it led to my colleagues, Councillor and putting down the motion to Council in April of this year, drawing attention to the continuing success in schools throughout the district of the Local Management initiative. Instead of joining in with my group in recognising this success and congratulating the managers, the party opposite showed its usual churlishness by trying to congratulate themselves for some reason or other. They've shown opposition to the introduction of L M S right from the start and put every obstacle possible in the way of its success, and its implementation, and yet there they were congratulating themselves on how well it was working. They tried to cloud the issue even further by mixing the question of L M S with the reforms which my group brought in while we were in control of the Council which is in stark contrast to the true situation. The Local Management of Schools was due to be introduced from 1990 and the Conservative group in had the foresight to see that if the scheme was given a fair wind, and the full support of the Council, it would come to be recognised as one of the greatest reforms of education. We realised that there could be some difficulties, and some apparent injustices might show up, but due to great consultative work put in by Councillors, and Mrs, often against great vilification and personal attack, many per problems were sorted out as they arose but we saw that i in April motions in amendments we see that it takes three full paragraphs of the amended motion to see that they deign to welcome initiatives which extend participation in decision making to schools, governors and parents. But note the crudity of that paragraph, which still doesn't give credit to the head teachers and governors for the way in which they've worked, and the success which they achieved. Then in the final paragraph of their er amendment the attempt to crow that the Labour Group has allowed schools to take full L M S when they were ready. What arrogance that is, that they allowed the schools to take on the full role when over fifty percent of em were already willing and anxious to do so. The arrangement of the Local Management of Schools is one of the best initiatives of the Conservative Government and it has freed schools from the heavy-handed control of Local Government, and in particular that of Labour controlled Authorities because it's a step into the unknown for some, with obviously some doubt at first, and many Labour Groups fed on those doubts with lies and threats but nevertheless it was taken up wholeheartedly by many schools. In we were fortunate in that the time of the introduction of L M S coincided with the all too brief period when this group was in control of the Council and as the window of opportunity opened to get off to a flying start [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] So the Local Authority was in the forefront of efforts to make Local Management a success. By April 1989 every school had a computer system to help with School Management. Outside London we were the first L E A to realise that this would be necessary. We've invested well over a million pound in micro-computers for the teaching of pupils right across the three phases of first, middle, and upper schools. Support for the new governors undertaking the management was without equal. A widespread training programme was carried out to help governors and schools staff to meet their new tasks and obligations. So that some two thousand people were involved in a major training programme. A Governor Support Unit was set up and is still in operation and working well today. The National Curriculum was introduced also, alongside L M S and we're already able to see the success of that now. Testing of pupils has been introduced and is continuing to be improved in the light of experiences of its first year of work in spite of the criticisms, which are of method rather than of reason. We can see that it's gonna provide parents and pupils with the continuous necessary information which they need to see how the they're wor working out, how they're progressing, and the need for further improvement. We're now looking forward to teacher appraisal and the opportunities that this will give s school staff to enhance their own future development. All of these initiatives were made more possible as a result of, and parallel to, Local Management of Schools and all in spite of the petty opposition of so many Labour Local Government controlling groups, who just can't bear the thought that the L E A is at last breaking free of absolute Local Government control. In spite of the wording of the motion put forward by Labour members, I would point out that, under Conservative control, has spent three hundred and fifty eight pound per head compared with the Metropolitan District who average three hundred and seventeen. I'm still talking about when we were in control. Forty one per head more than the average of all comparable Authorities. These figures were confirmed even more when we saw when we saw that we spent twenty five pound more a head of population on our schools than the average Metropolitan District. This included spending almost twenty six a head more on secondary education and nearly five pound a head more on special education. To complete this numerical picture, the average spend per head of further education was almost fifty five pound per head, nearly five pound fifty more than the average Metropolitan District. So much then for the silly part of the Labour resolution of last April which tries to congratulate the Labour group on rescuing the L M S scheme. It needed no rescuing. I can assure them, and the people as a whole, that the L M S scheme had been born, was living and progressing well when Labour took control of the Council. It was already making such good progress that it's been able to grow and improve in spite of so much petty interference as the Labour Group has been able to put on it. Thank goodness that time too is passing and it won't be long now before Local Management of Schools and Local Financial Management is fully implemented and beyond the reach of the vicious Labour attacks on it's future. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] So, my Lord Mayor, I am sure that the original resolution of Councillor and, noting the continuing success of the Local Management Initiative, was the right one. The resolution then being flashed out by the amendments of Councillor and recognising the work of members of governing bodies given so freely. Also the importance which will come to be valued in future of the standard assessment tests. You've only to read the new Parents Charter, which John Major is introducing, to realise this. It will make it possible to have annual written reports on each child's progress. Regular reports will be made by independent inspectors on the strengths and weaknesses of each school and published tables will give parents the ability to compare the performance of local schools. This will then overcome this silly bigotry of the Labour Group in trying to ostracise the opted-out school in and the College, when this Charter is in place, we'll be able to compare every facet of education across the district because the results will be published for all to see and these two schools will not be able to be frozen out of that exercise. All of this is coming about as a direct result of the original plan for the Local Management of Schools and it's continuing success, in spite of the Labour Group and not because of it, and so I move the amendment my Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] It i my Lord Mayor, it is indeed colossal cheek and pure hypocrisy on the part of the Tory Group, and particularly on the part of Councillor, to be putting forward the resolution congratulating schools on their success in responding to the introduction of Local Management, when they and the Government, between them impose such conditions that could only lead to chaos and disorder. The Tory Group, you will all recall, imposed l Local Management on all except small schools in the shortest possible time. And whatever Councillor says, there was an inadequate period for that essential preparation, both within the directorate and for heads and teachers, to allow them to come to terms with what Local Manage of the schools meant. Why did they do this? It's clear now, if it wasn't clear then, that they were willing to sacrifice the well-being of schools, of their staff and pupils, for the glory of their leader and for national recognition of the then Councillor, as the most ardent of Thatcher disciples and ensuring for him another step towards that coveted safe Tory seat For that end, for that end, you people over there, who took a decision to implement Local Management at the earliest possible time, regardless of the state of preparation of each particular school, regardless of the resources of staff and equipment and, if that was not enough, you also introduced a cut of thirteen million pounds in education funding. Can anyone wonder that disbelief and despondency settled upon many schools in time to give way to anger and protest at the possibility of carrying out tasks that has been imposed on them under impossible conditions. Are your memories so short over there, or is it that you have deliberately forgotten or ignored the protests of that time. Do you not remember that two hundred head teachers gathered and protested and handed back their budgets? Do you not remember that when Labour took over You do in fact remember as c Councillor has said, that when Labour took over and schools were given the chance to change their minds and withdraw at least to change y to change the decision and withdraw from immediate L M S, then half of the schools chose to delay it's introduction. Surely by that time it had become clear that if the Government plans for Local Management were ill-conceived, that the plans for Local Management were ill-conceived and had not been properly thought out. Surely by that time many of you must have realised that had got you into a right pickle over L M S and that you some of you I believe felt that but none of you spoke out about it. It was left to the Labour Group, on taking over control, to find a way out of the morass that you had created. Since then we have redirected plans to ease the burden on schools, given recognition to the increased work load for clerical staff and to the importance of the work they do. A great deal of time and energy has gone into dealing with anomalies and revising the formula for funding so that it distributes more fairly on the basis of need. It is much improved but still does not deal satisfactorily with disadvantages that some schools face. Many Heads have expressed to me their appreciation of what the lu Labour Group has done for them to rescue them from the plight that the Tories imposed on them. But make m n no mistake, make no mistake, the situation is still difficult, because the Government imposes conditions and changes are all so often that the resolution of problems is difficult, as you will see from the Director of Education's statement. Problems problems over the alloc because the allocation is mainly based on pupil numbers and not on pupil's needs, by the use of average salaries and not actual salaries, by changes in level of grants for support and training, and the needs of the school and the children. And we still have L M S to com t to face. Schools are indeed to be congratulated in what they have done in the face of what you pr prepared for them. Only the the congratulations are implicit it seems to me in what you have said to the Labour Group for finding a way out of the problems that you had created. Schools recognise this and you too in your hearts will recognise this. Only because of Labour proposals and actions have schools managed to deal as well as they have with L M S. Congratulations, I say, go to the Labour Group. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor, Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] on about and I suspect that Councillor must be on about. The Conservative Group do indeed congratulate the Government for it's far-sighted legislation to make our schools more accountable to the people they serve. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] Local Management of Schools has been to many of our schools. Head teachers and governing bodies under L M S control their own spending and determine their own priorities. The Conservative Group put forward proposals to give this power to the schools as soon as possible, as Councillor did say, and many of our schools took advantage, around fifty percent I believe [clears throat]. Despite this, the Labour Group did persuade some schools to delay implementation of the L M S Initiative and I rather suspect that some of these schools regret this decision today. The schools who took the challenge are happy to be in control of their own affairs. Councillor has said that we have, that his group do not believe in the testing of seven year olds. He claims that it will be a waste of time and money. This is a disgrace and wi we will never agree with him on this issue. It would deny our better schools informing parents on how they were doing. The Government's policies have meant more choice [clears throat] sorry, and higher standards in educational spending per pupil. This is over forty percent above the level in Labour's last year. Allowing for inflation the total budget for L E A's this year is around seventeen point five billion pounds, nearly sixteen percent more than last year. Parents have been given a bigger role than ever before. They can pick and help their schools to which they send their children. They can play a very very key part on governing bodies. We welcome these initiatives. Labour would cut choice and standards by scrapping the C T C's, grammar schools and grant maintained schools. What a disgrace. In conclusion, Lord Mayor, the Conservatives welcome the fact that head teachers now control their own ship. Teacher, pupils and parents now know who their captain is. The Conservatives launched this ship and we will do all in our power to stop the Labour Group of Group from scuttling it. My Lord Mayor [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor That's you [tape breaks here] I'd just like to remind Councillor of one or two things and then spend a little bit of time talking about some of the gimmicks that the Tories have introduced over this past ten years. I'm glad Councillor reminded er Councillor reminded Councillor erm about the introduction of L M S, when over two hundred teachers did appear outside to protest about the introduction of it, along with cuts in budgets. And erm, whilst those schools are still suffering from under-funding, at least they can er gain some erm solace, consolation from the fact that er the Tories seem to be able to replace their chairs, opposition spokespersons of education almost at will. Councillor did in fact try to take some credit for one or two things in his speech. He talked of the Governor Support Unit and I'd like to remind Councillor and his group that they were responsible for taking over a hundred posts out of the administrative section of. The Governor Support Unit, Lord Mayor, did not exist under their structure. Councillor talked about er spending levels and he may be interested to know that the N U T have done a recent survey of education spending and found to be sixty first out of a hundred L E A's surveyed, so that doesn't quite stack up with some of his statistics. Of course, as Councillor rightly pointed out, they did take thirteen million pounds out of the budget. As far as the Parents Charter is concerned, that document is gathering dust in many school cupboards as governors, including some Tory governors, refuse to send it out. It means nothing in terms of dealing with the many problems before education today. Councillor and Councillor mentioned testing and they're dead right, I oppose it, it's an irrelevance, a complete distraction. What they want is a league table of young children, those that pass and those that fail. Can I le remind Councillor though that five out of six schools in his ward recently sent a letter to the D E S and the Education Minister opposing testing in schools. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Lord Mayor Can I say, Lord Mayor Can I say, Lord Mayor, that I am not, I am not a vindictive person but did grammar really expect to get away with including the Christmas dinner in their schools meals budget? That is, that is the whole truth Lord Mayor, and nothing but the truth. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] and, Lord Mayor, can I mention the disgraceful behaviour of that god father of the City Who? in defending the school against the advice of his own officials, who supported in its findings backed by the audit report into those figures on the schools meals budget. If any school in this Authority, including tries to take more than they deserve, tries to be greedy in taking more money from the rest of schools, I will oppose it and I hope every member of this Council does too. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Moving on to that other well known gimmick, that elitist Tory academy up the road called the College. Can anyone, Lord Mayor, condone spending seventy nine times more money on the children of that school You're lying than the, the truth, Councillor, nothing but the truth. Can anyone condone that sort of spending when schools are crumbling, when we're short of teachers, books and equipment for the National Curriculum. No, Lord Mayor, no one with any justice could condone that sort of spending. I am extremely pleased to be able to say that shortly, Lord Mayor, we will be able to consider the future of the T T C under a Labour Government and under a Labour controlled Council, and I can't wait. I can't wait to allow all children to benefit from that eight million pound school up the road. Can I just, Lord Mayor, point to one or two of the inequalities with the present L M S scheme, and in particular the average national teacher costs? It's something that the Government have continuously ignored but is a major problem to many schools. In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to schools and it's far worse in many other districts. What it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district. Can that be good for education? It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market- led economy education, competition, evasiveness, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority. And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation in decision making, as a vehicle for bringing that about. Councillor is on record, in fact not long after taking

[speaker001:] proportionately because when the cuts come it's the special need support that many of these groups need that was the first to go. It was the help with literacy and numeracy, it was the help with English as a second language, it was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence. These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives. But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election. Panic in Tory Party central office. What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed? What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training? The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the budget. There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year. This from the party of so sound finance and forward planning. What else do the Tories do? They try and hide some of the total mess they have made. They take some of the money they have cut from the training budget and use it to fund employment action. One of the most blatant and invidious pieces of political skulduggery we have seen for some time. Employment Action is a scheme that will take people off the dole queue and put them into full time work for benefit plus ten pounds. With the best will in the world, no-one could refer to it as a training scheme. A confidential Department of Employment memo states, the scheme will have only a minimal training element. Even the Tech, which has trumpeted the fact that it has pushed hard for a greater training element, has only been enabl able to include such elements as health and safety, job search, an enhancement of skills relevant to the job that is being done. One of the biggest farces of the whole idea is that the Tech proposals talk about using Employment Action in skill shortage areas. This is totally illogical. If you have a skill that's in short supply, you go and work for the proper rate for the job. If you don't have the skill, Employment Action will never give you those skills. Eligibility for the scheme is defined in such a way as to exclude the very people who've been worst hit by the cuts and to maximise the infl influence on the unemployment figures. Women returners and those people on disability benefits are excluded from taking part in the scheme, even if they wanted to. The timing of the launch means that ther if there is any sort of take up, it will have the greatest effect on unemployment figures between March and July. It's no coincidence that this is the likely period of the next general election. The Scheme is funded for eighteen months only and this means that the numbers will start to drop in October 1993 and that is the only good thing about this Scheme, because it'll make it easier for the next Labour Government to abolish it. Employment Action has no stated aim except to provide the long term unemployed with an up to date reference. Unlike the Government Training Schemes, funding is not reliant upon people finding jobs or gaining qualifications. There is nothing in it for the participants except the opportunity to work for low or no wages. The effect on those who are employed in the areas of work that Employment Action will concentrate on will be to increase unemployment and force down wages. Participants will not have the same protection as employees and trainees as far as the Health and Safety at Work Act is concerned. They will not be covered by the Race Relations and Sex Discrimination Act. They will not have the right to go to Industrial Tribunal for legal redress. Do the Tories really expect a responsible Council to take part in such a scheme? Where are these participants gonna come from? Who in this room would be willing to work full time for the equivalent of benefit plus ten pounds? The Government have painted a picture of willing participants lining up to take part in this scheme. This is pa at least in part due to the glossy advertising that they've launched at a cost of a quarter of a million pounds a week. But, if as I believe is the case, the scheme fails to attract anybody, then what are the Government's alternatives? They can either admit they've made a mistake, or they can make it compulsory. They had to get rid of a leader before they could bring themselves to admit that the poll tax was a mistake and I can't see John Major going before he loses the next election. So it's more likely that they'll make it compulsory. Work by another name. We've already seen it happen with the youth training. We're seeing it happening with adult training and this is all from the Party that talks about choice. In this district there are hundreds, if not thousands, of unemployed pe people doing the socially useful work, as the Tories like to describe it. They are running our tenants and residents associations. They are working in the voluntary sector and they're supporting charities. The problem that the Tories have with this is that they still appear on the unemployment figures. Employment Action was not designed to help the unemployed. It was designed as a desperate attempt by a desperate Government to dig itself out of a mess of its own making. It is trying to hide the fact that it's policies have bought pain, misery, the pain, misery and hardship of unemployment to thousands of people in the district and millions throughout the country. We, as a Council, are not willing to take part in this shoddy scheme but we'll [clears throat] we will continue to work to provide high q quality real training to the people of the district and to work with business and industry to develop real jobs. Norman Lamont said, unemployment is a price worth paying. Come the next general he'll be able to judge the value of that crass statement himself as he and the rest of his cabinet are replaced by a Party that has policies to develop real training and employment opportunities for the people of and for the country, and that will be a Labour cabinet and a Labour Government. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] Nothing that this Council will debate today will show the despicable face of the Labour Party more than this one. Sitting across on the opposite benches it is the Labour Party who shed crocodile tears for the unemployed. If the truth be known, the majority of Labour Councillors, just like their Socialist friends at Westminster, show more allegiance to the Trade Unions than to the unemployed. Labour like to talk about unemployment but, while the Conservative Government works to bring unemployment down, the Labour Party are busily embracing policies to put the unemployment rate up. And how they dare to care about the unemployed when they would price people out of work, strike people out of work and tax people out of work? [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] How can a group be taken seriously, or be considered concerned, when it openly rejects co-operation with this two hundred and thirty million pound scheme which will very substantially increase the number of opportunities for the unemployed in Britain as a whole and in in particular. To suggest that Employment Action is merely to massage the unemployment figures is a feeble excuse for the Labour Group to it's conscience. A great deal of emotive talk exists around the subject of unemployment and, just as there are many different reasons for someone becoming employed, there are equally many r different needs that the unemployed have. Regrettably, many younger people have no experience of the work ethic within their homes. Labour turning on its back on Employment Action will in no way help them gain the necessary experience to be employable, or to be equipped for further training for more advanced skills. Why deny them the benefit of self respect and a sense of purpose, which training on such a scheme would create. We all know the real reason for Labour Group's rejection of Employment Action. It has nothing to do with the plight of the unemployed and everything to do with the power and desire for further power of the Trade Union Movement. Our Labour Councillors don't represent their electorate, they represent the T U C and the vested interests of their own Unions. Only the A E U have the courage to stand up against big brother, the T U C, warning against denying the unemployed a glimmer of hope. To decry d decry Unemployment Action, claiming it to be work is, and at the same time supporting the Labour Party policy which would make it acceptable to receive benefit without training, but illegal to have a job without training, is a strange morality. What is wrong with providing tr training through environmentally useful schemes? It has much to commend it. Even th your chief supporter, the T N A, on September the nineteenth agreed that it was far better, it was far better to use the untapped human resource than to load the ca th the cost on to the community charge payer. The Labour benches had several new members and, dare I suggest, green Councillor, with no memory of the disastrous economic policies of the last Labour Government, or the ensuing distress that it's huge army of unemployed. The party you support created such chaos that unemployment rose by a hundred and thirty one percent. Yes, two thousand three hundred people per week is correct but that was week on every week for five and a half years that Labour held office. Two thousand three hundred per week for five and a half years. Rampant inflation, excessive public expenditure, lack of private investment because of ex excessive tax burdens, and to top it all, an industrial relations policy that brought this country to its knees, making it the subject of derision throughout the world. They were the Labour's disastrous policies for this country. In 1979 the Conservative Government was elected with a clear mandate to tackle the problem of excessive Union powers which was destroying the employment and the livelihood of thousands of people every week. Conservative Governments have honoured that commitment in full and, as a result, continuous strikes, the British disease as they are known, have been eliminated. The elements of success which have turned our economy round are quite clear. The top priority to re reduce inflation, removal of Labour imposed barriers to employment such as Wage Councils, increased and improved training. The Conservative Government since 1983 has created three hundred million, sorry three million, extra jobs. Of course, you will never hear a word about success and achievement from the benches opposite. About the fact that, under Conservative, our productivity has grown faster than Japans' . That our strike record is the best in fifty years. Our standard of living has grown faster than Italy, Sweden and Switzerland. Our exports since 1983 have increased faster than France, Germany and America. Isn't that the way forward to help the unemployed? This Government has spent more money on training than any other Government si in our history, two and a half times as much in real terms as when Labour were in office. Fifty new training places for every one under Labour. Now let's hear something of the policies that Labour would support. Remember, of course, that Labour and the Unions are as thick as thieves, so the gr Labour Group, just like its parliamentary counterpart, is incapable of making a single decision without the Union pulling the strings. More than half Labour's M P's are Union sponsored, a hundred and forty, being the highest since 1935, and eighteen out of the twenty in the shadow cabinet are also Union sponsored and their paymasters will expect plenty in return. Labour would repeal all sensible Union legislation. What about Labour's training commitment? Well, we've had three documents in eighteen months but none with a viable pound sign. Labour only pledge, of course, to er to spend money on pensions and child benefit, so the shadow treasury tell us. Unless, of course, you believe John Smith, whose alternative budget said, nothing for pensions but a two hundred and eighty five million for training. Who do we believe? Labour constantly block help to the unemployed. They have passionately and consistently opposed the first guaranteed yo two year training programme for unemployed school leavers and thirteen Labour controlled Councils pulled out of employment training. even forced it's skill centre to close. Some commitment to the unemployed. An utter disgrace. Where to Labour stand on Training and Enterprise Councils? tries to stress how much they are in favour of them, but Mister is telling people to ease up. Well, I'm happy to tell the Labour Group that tee the T E C's are alive and well and producing results. Labour's half baked Skills UK Scheme would be a national organisation to direct national training. Bureaucrats at every level instead of local TEC's dealing with local training needs. Labour's o Labour's open hostility to employers will do little for business confidence and job creation. Mister would impose sanctions on employers who did not follow Labour's wishes. The proposed jobs tax would be a contribution by all companies to pay for centralised training funds. Back to the bad old days when employers were so busy employing people to push bits of people round and see to inspectors that they didn't have anything to do with training an produced not one single job. Remember, Labour Party, that no legislative approach has been devised that relates training to business needs. Compulsion was mentioned by Councillor but he's too young to remember that compulsion was tried in 1960 [whispering] [] Councillor, compulsion was tried in the 1960's and 1970's. It failed miserably. It led to a climate when employers were forced into inappropriate training by m by numbers and mindless forms to avoid. The most disastrous of all Labour's proposed strategy is the National Statutory Minimum Wage and at a modest assumption this proposal would lose seven hundred and fifty thousand jobs. Such a policy would undermine the skill differentials which essential to maintain the incentive for individuals to train. A minimum age would be the death knell of hopes for incru improving the skills of the British people. Labour proved itself incapable of creating a sound economy when in Government. When in opposition it has proved it's policies of a minimum wage, a jobs tax, social charter, support and and s er strikers charter that they would never learn. As far as this Council is concerned, if you are unemployed you will get no constructive help from Labour. Instead they insist that their ideas are simple. If it involves training, boycott it. If it curbs strikes, fight it and if it creates jobs spurn it. Fantastic [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [whispering] [] On nineteenth June 1991 the Secretary of State for Employment, Michael Howard, announced a new package supposedly to help unemployed people. All this was happening and now this com here comes a Tory record. All this was happening at a time of deep recession worsening by the day with unemployment rising to two and a half million, redundancies up by forty percent in the first four months of ninety one. Bankruptcies, including voluntary and er company liquidations, up by seventy five percent in the first six months of this year. Property repossessions in the Nord Northern region up by forty seven percent in the first first six months. To exacerbate the situation, eighty thousand places were cut from employment training. Whilst our competitors in Europe and elsewhere continued to push their training objectives forward, Britain remains the only modern Western European country which has neither national objectives for training nor a statutory work force and, as yet, no unified or progressive system of national qualifications. The failure of Government to give a real to training arises from it's obsession with market forces and passion for privatisation. The Government is depriving the country of much needed vocational skills and training necessary to revive the industrial decadence caused by the twelve years of Tory control, leaving the potential work force not only unemployed but unemployable. Lord Mayor, Employment Action has been thoroughly debated at the previous Council Committee meetings, with all it's injustices brought to light. It is a no wage work scheme designed cynical to the employment figures in the wake of pending general election. We, on this side, are concerned about the plight of unemployed and are currently running training schemes to help them back into labour market. In E I D, for instance, we run pre-vocational and initial training. Both are customised to help the trainees progress to adult training. Employment Action is by far from being impeccable. It lacks the necessary ingredients of programme with a training element in it. Even the TEC's have spotted this deficiency, many of them deciding to shun it altogether. Some scare-mongering tactics have been adopted by the Tories to compel us into participating the emp in employment action. All of a sudden they have become sympathetic to a work force, the very people who have been threatened with Government's legislation on competitive tendering. Lord Mayor, I therefore support our motion. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor M my Lord Mayor Thank you my Lord Mayor Mayor, three months ago the E I D sub-committee Labour members rejected the Employment Action Scheme. A month ago the committee Labour members rejected this Scheme and I still have an enormous sense of amazement and anger that the local, and I express local, because it's not a national policy, that the local Labour group could act in such a callous and spiteful way, putting political dogma, party political dogma, before the needs of the unemployed in the district. And I doubt whether Councillor has read the papers. I mean, I've read em very thoroughly and I've read the reports of the officers. In these three months there has been nothing but support for this scheme, some of it qualified, but nevertheless support, that it should go ahead. Even the T U C, only the T U C and the Labour Party have been completely negative and rejected it out of hand. Our Council officers, and I refer to their report, recommended that we applied to run the Scheme. They fully considered that there was merit, great merit, in running it as far as the Council was concerned. And if you read the report, you can do nothing but agree. Councillor has referred to the editorial of the Telegraph and Argos. Can I just enlarge upon that because, and quote from it, by boycotting employment action the CoUncil's controlling group seem to have made a bad decision, prompted by a desire to score political points in the debating chamber. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] It is a shame that the local Labour Party, these are the editor's words, not mine, it is a shame that the local Labour Party has set its face against the scheme. The Telegraph and Argos, I quote. Well done the T and A , bless, president of the A V W Engineering Union, gave a warning to the T U C against denying the unemployed the opportunity to join the Scheme. And even, the Labour national spokesman, said to the T U C, it is unwise to reject the Scheme, it is not a good idea to say you will not co-operate with it. The local TEC board, on which I think the leader of the Council serves Yes indeed Good. Decided to bid to operate the Scheme providing there was a stronger training element and moves have been made in that direction. TEC plans to use Employment Action as a pre-adult training phase, and Councillor, it intends to use it for those trainees who need extra help and resource, those that you referred to, those requiring language training, those requiring literacy and numeracy training, Councillor the very group that you referred to. And Council officers say that this is particularly attractive in the situation and I agree. One year unemployment action plus one year adult training would achieve the long term objective for those unemployed, with special needs. You referred to those Councillor. TEC has also indicated that appropriate project work for Employment Action would fall into such categories as child care, you agree with child care presumably, energy conservation, you agree with energy conservation, environmental issues, security, tourism. Our officers say that this fits in perfectly with our plans for existing and new projects and I believe the officers. So why oh why do the Labour Party reject the Scheme when it will cater for those unemployed they profess to care about, when it will cater for those projects of benefit to the community the Labour party profess to care about. I've listened very carefully to Councillor and I haven't learnt a thing about the answer to various questions which were raised at E I D and and I ask it again, why do you really reject the Scheme? All I hear by way of reply are vague comments about massaging the unemployment figures. I think we even heard the cry, we want a minimum, we want a minimum wage, and everyone knows what that would do to the unemployment figures. Seven hundred and fifty thousand to a million more on unemployment. Is that massaging the figures? My Lord Mayor, my Lord Mayor, I started by saying how angry and dismayed I was on the twenty fourth of July. Three months on I er I'm even mor angry, appalled and disgusted at the hypocrisy of the members opposite because, if they really care about the unemployed, why don't they support this Scheme? If you really care about the unemployed with special needs, if you really care about special projects for which they work upon, you should support the Scheme. Quite frankly, you have time to change your minds because if you don't change your minds, those unemployed in with special needs will never forgive you and I certainly won't. Councillor bring your remarks to a conclusion please [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor is on his feet My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. Thank you. [tape breaks here] sec [tape breaks here] those in favour? [tape breaks here] that is carried, forty nine votes to thirty. Those in favour of amendment B moved by Councillor please show. [tape breaks here] Those against? [whispering] yes [] [tape breaks here] That is lost, thirty to forty nine. Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show Please show [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Those against? Some of them [tape breaks here] That is carried, forty nine to thirty two. In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to schools and it's ah worse in many other districts. What's it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district. Can that be good for education? It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market led economy education, competition,, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority. And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation and decision making as a vehicle for bringing us about. Councillor is on record, in fact not long after taking his job, that he doesn't care much for state education, he prefers, grant maintained schools, the assisted places scheme, which I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, we don't operate in this district and neither did the Tories when they were in power and I applaud them for that [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] This attack is yet another divisive scheme But Councillor, his first public statement was to support all those gimmicks and to say that he wanted an end to the three tier system in, turned his back on all our middle schools. His only interest was bringing back grammar schools, that's really what he wanted to do. Well, Lord Mayor, that's on no-one's agenda over here. I'm working hard, with colleagues, to provide a fair education system throughout the district and I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, when the Tories talk of petty interference, it's interpreted by our head teachers and schools as co-operation, consultation, our listening ear, yes, Councillor and Councillor, they'll listen and if they've got the money they'll assist our schools. Lord Mayor, I support the Labour Group's er recommendations. I think we have salvaged the L M S Scheme in and when we get a national Labour Government we'll be able to make sure that it protects, it protects, those children with special needs, those children from socially deprived backgrounds in this city and protects our most experienced teachers. Lord Mayor, clearly that is what the Tories do not want to happen in. Thank you Lord Mayor Well done [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move understanding order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. Thank you. Seconded, my Lord Mayor. Those in favour? [tape breaks here] Those against? [tape breaks here] That is carried, forty nine votes to thirty [tape breaks here] Those in favour of amendment C moved by Councillor please show [tape breaks here] Those against? [tape breaks here] We'll now vote on those in favour of an amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor. Those in favour please show [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Those against? [whispering] twenty eight [] Mhm? [whispering] twenty eight [] Two and twenty eight. That is lost to four to twenty against. We'll now move on to an amendment standing in the name of Councillor. Will those in favour please show? [tape breaks here] Those against? [whispering] it's forty nine, fifty one [] [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] That is lost, thirty votes to fifty one [tape breaks here] now deal with an amendment standing in the name of Councillor Those in favour please show [tape breaks here] Those against? [whispering] the two liberals [] Mhm? [whispering] thirty two [] Thirty two [whispering] [] That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against, which brings us now to voting on the substantive motion. Those in favour please show. Those against? [tape breaks here] That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. Which now brings us on to er item eleven on the agenda which are notices of motion, the first one being houses housing land for speculators. Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment D standing in his name. Moved Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Seconded Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? My l Lord Mayor, I move, that the item be referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and a decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Council be removed. [whispering] seconded [] Seconded? Those in favour please show [whispering] get up get up. It's gonna be a short evening []... Mhm? Those against [whispering] thirty two []. That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. The next white paper motion is on road safety and traffic calming measures. Call upon Councillor to move a motion, together with amendment F standing in his name. [tape breaks here] Seconded? Seconded my Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] I call upon Councillor to hem amendment G standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? [tape breaks here] I move that the item be referred to the Transportation and Highways Engineering Sub-Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and the decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Committee or and Council be removed. Those in favour?... Those against? [whispering] thirty two []... [whispering] that's carried, forty nine thirty two [] That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. We've come to er the third white paper motion, the Childrens Act. Call upon Mrs to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name. Move it, Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to move amendment I standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C, this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Lord Mayor, I D that the item be debated at this meeting, without first it receiving report from Social Services Committee on the grounds that the matter is urgent in the meaning of the section three one of the Local Authority and Social Services Act of 1970. I so move Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here] Those in favour? Mhm? Mhm [whispering] [] There's nobody appears to be against it, so it'll c [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, members of Council. I welcome the new Children Act which became law earlier this month. It is a new legal framework for child care and came about as a result of lessons learnt from Lord enquiry into child abuse in Cleveland in 1987. It is a credit to Social Services officers that many of the new policies for children had already been adopted, and you can be proud of the work being done in this area. However, there is always room for improvement and I think the public has little idea of the enormous problems that confront us, all of us, as the parents of these children in care. The emphasis of the new Act, and already a policy of this Council, is to keep children with their natural parents whenever possible. The prime responsibility for bringing up children rests with parents. This means providing help and support in the home, the provision of day centres and family centres, and all this we do. On the other hand the needs and welfare of the child must be paramount and if a child is deemed to be in danger, or at any particular risk, the child must be removed. In the new Act parents can appeal against the child's removal after seventy two hours. Previously they had to wait twenty eight days before doing so. Children who do come in to care are placed with other families where possible and again is fortunate in having an experienced network of foster parents and link carers and we can't thank them enough. In the new Act the positive role of relatives and friends is also recognised, but it must be obvious to everyone that some children are just so difficult, often having been very badly abused, and with severe behaviour problems, that they cannot be contained in a family and these children are placed in residential homes. Let me say at once what a very difficult job the residential staff have, often in poor accommodation and with very poor wages, and with the most difficult and damaged children. I welcome the Labour Party's proposals to refurbish some of these homes. I just hope it's done quickly. We in the childrens services have known for two years that something more must be done and we must pay our staff more. We have s training schemes with support money from the Government. The trouble is that with more training some of the staff quite naturally move to more lucrative jobs. In the new Act children are then to have a say in what they want and in the plans made for them. Given this, they m may be more co-operative and, even if living away from home, they have a strength and right of contact with their family. This all seems to make sense to me and I welcome the fact that this Act recognises children also have their rights. If all this leads the controlling group to scream for more money from the Government, and it will inevitably, I suggest they start using the money they have more sensibly and not waste it on their more extravagant schemes. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] For instance, festival, trips abroad, more and more committees with more and more meddlers, hence more paper, more secretarial work, all these neighbourhood forums, liaison groups and area panels, all costing a lot, talking a lot and doing very little [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] All the new traffic islands in this city. Just a fraction of this, just a fraction of this money directed towards our children and their services would help enormously Help our children to grow into good citizens for. Ensure a brighter f future for us as well as them. Thank you my Lord Mayor [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] Thank you Lord Mayor. Mrs er has er actually said that we should be getting some more money and then she spoilt it by saying we should be using the money we haven't got more er better use it and er maybe knocking the traffic li er islands out will save us a problem cos we'll get a few kids knocked down and we won't have to bother with em. That's the only thing I can say cos I can't understand how anybody can talk about traffic islands for er children in need [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And what I'd like to do is, we do welcome this Act cos y'know we're not dog in a manger, when there's a good Act well, we'll welcome it and we'll say so. But, as usual, the Conservative Government have spoiled it. They've undermined it by not allocating resources. Just to highli I'd just like to highlight a few of the principles before I comment on this dishonesty of this Government in, on the one hand enacting a major piece of legislation and on the other hand doing it in such a way that Councils' ll settle for failure because resources have not been allocated. Th what Labour would do would be ring fence the money, that's what Labour would do and I'll come on to that later if you give me a chance. Th the, one of the main principles is a comprehensive clarification and rationalisation of child care law, probably the biggest we're gonna get this century, and basic principles, as Councillor is that parental responsibility cannot be lost through the process of law. Regardless of who's caring for the child, both parents are still responsible and should still be involved in any decision making. It requires the Local Authority to seek alternatives in order to keep the child in the family, rather than legal routes for admitting children to care. It str strengthens the responsibility of Authorities to take into account racial and cultural needs when making plans for children. It recognises the children as the major actors in any decision making and ensures that their rights and involvements in decision making are enhanced. It requires Local Authorities and other agencies to co-operate with Social Services in responding to children in need. All these principles the Labour Group champion and support. But what about resources? The first resource I wanna talk about is not the resources, the Local Authority resources, the resources of the family. The family who has to care for children whether they've got disabilities or not and the whole intention of this Act is that children are best cared for by parents and any alternative is second best. Yet the basic requirements for a family to do this, a decent home, a decent job, good education services, good health services for children with disabilities, recreational facilities and support systems in the community. Every one of these requirements have been consistently attacked over twelve years by the Conservative Government. It's fine to pass Acts but even a good Act are no good if their parents are expected to care for the child without resources. Who considers our housing stock adequate and f that it provides a satisfactory environment to give facilities to parents? Who considers there are sufficient play and other activities to keep young people out of trouble? I'll give you two examples of the other side of Tories doing an Act. Under the 1989 Housing and Local Government Act a man, living in a thirty thousand pound house with a mortgage. He has three children. He's got six hundred pound a month clear. The middle child is severely disabled and necessary d adaptations would cost him three thousand seven hundred, that's what he's gotta find, and he cannot afford it, he can't afford to borrow that. That's one of the Acts that works against children in need. And also, when handicapped children are placed in foster homes, the foster parent is assis assessed as a contributor, which of course the Local Authority has to pay. We've a case where it cost ten thousand pounds. That ain't helping to do things for children. All these things are what the Childrens Act is about, but it's not presumably what the Conservative Government is about. The resources of the Social Services are purposely put last because really we don't wanna be involved. We want the parents to be able to cope. We want the spirit of the Act, that the parents should be in position to cope, to come through, but they're certainly not gonna be. At this point I'd just like to comment on Virginia Bottomley's contention that she'd give twenty four percent to Social Services extra in S S A to the ac for the Act. It were twenty four percent of virtually the same amount so the age old problem of the Conservatives robbing Peter to pay Paul. If you wanna take the money out of education, housing, and sweeping and cleaning the streets, then we could have it in Social Services. That's what it means. No, we didn't get it. That's w that's what it means. It's it's lies. That's what she's saying. She said she'd give twenty four percent darn lies then it's lies darn lies As a Council, as Councillor says, we've done everything we can to prepare for the Act. We've worked hard to develop inter-directory and inter-agency working, we've trained a high proportion of the staff and we are recognising that re- organising the directorate to provide specialist children's service. They've undertaken pilot schemes in three key areas of the Childrens Act. Definitions of children in need, emergency protection orders and accommodation agreements. We've tried to fulfil our responsibilities as good parents. But as a Labour Group, we welcome this motion because it demonstrates the dishonesty of the Conservative Government in passing one of the most enlightened pieces of legislation without any of the resources to implement it. Lord Mayor, I move. Well done [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] made a speech in the Council Chamber and I've tur [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] No, hold on, and I've turned up with the wrong one. I too could give you a very good speech on traffic island but I'll save that for the Transportation Highways and Engineering Sub- Committee. On the Childrens Act, I just want to say one thing briefly. There's been very little said about the actual content of the Childrens Act and I think it actually gets all Party's support, which is, which is excellent. What I want to say is one thing about the public's perception of the political scene at the moment. They are absolutely fed up with political point scoring. Er, wrong party. And I think er and I think we're gonna get a lot more political point scoring t er further on this evening. We've got a lot more to look forward to. We've tried to frame our motion as carefully as we could t so we could actually get support from everybody. There is concern about funding for the Childrens Act and it's too important to start scoring political points, whether there's a general election or not t and I must admit I was off, I was off ill, off work during the week of the Tory Party Conference. It was actually something that happened before the Tory Party Conference but it didn't, it didn't actually help me recover [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and nearly every day, nearly every speaker actually attacked Local Government in some way. What the Children Act does at least recognise in the Conservative Government passing the Childrens Act is the importance of Local Government. These are very important services and they are placed, just like care in the community will be, when it eventually is put into practice. They will actually responsibility of Local Government and er we've tried to put in here something that even Conservative Councillors could support, even though it's attacking Conservative Ministers, cos they must actually believe in Local Government to actually serve on Local Government, one would think, but er, but th the problems of under-funding are th could be very serious. During the summer we had serious problems report on childrens homes which erm which y'know which pointed out a few things y'know that hadn't been doing well, mainly, mainly in defence of erm because they did put in a lot of effort

[speaker001:] It is carried. [speaker002:] those in favour. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] Those against. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] The ayes have it.... Item six to report... social services committee... Mr [speaker001:] Then you turn your attention away in a minute and the rotten devils do [Roberts:] Chairman, I I move... that the report of the social services committee regarding the future of the county council's old persons homes... be noted. I hope... Chairman that er David... will listen to the arguments on this because like other members of his group he throws out... closure of elderly persons homes, y'know we've gotta do it, we've gotta do it... something about which he knows absolutely nothing... and about which he's completely wrong.... erm... I've always believed that consistency is an overrated virtue... so... I'm not gonna criticise the Conservatives for changing their minds but... you have to ask yourself why is this recorded on the agenda today... when... the sub-committee, planning sub- committee has already met and discussed these matters and things have moved on a little further... Well we... we really have to look at how the... resolution in this... paragraph came about in the first place.... erm... At the beginning of the social services committee meeting Mr... moved a resolution which he previously moved at the social services planning sub-committee... which... listed most of the things which are presently in the... the resolution but it started the social services accept the implication of the director of social services report on the future of the department's elderly person's homes... erm, after some minutes of debate... the... er Democrats asked if the Tories would remove that... phrase from the resolution and then tha... the Democrats, the Liberal Democrats would vote for it... the Tories of course er looking gift horses in the mouth as usual, said no... and... the the that... resolution was lost.... We then... voted on a lengthy Liberal resolution... er, it was amended by Labour... we voted on... all of the separate points in the resolution, all were agreed... and then Professor decided that he wanted to move a further amendment which after some consultation, some discussion with the legal people about it's validity, he did... which wiped out all of the things that we'd just agreed and we turned... to the original Conservative motion... minus the beginning phrase and with a couple of things stuck on at the end... and we thought well that's it the Conservatives will vote for that, but no... although it was their own motion... in all but name, the Conservatives wouldn't vote for that... unless Mr was allowed to move it. [speaker001:] So he did. [Roberts:] So he did... and it was voted on and it was agreed.... We spent... Chairman, two and a half hours discussing this matter at that point and we had come full circle... back to point 1.... To get back to that beginning phrase... the... social services committee accepts the implications of the director of social services report on the future of the departments E P H's.... That report predicted a rise from five hundred to nine hundred... er in the vacancies in in homes by nineteen ninety six.... Since then at the planning sub-committee Mr has produced a whole load of new made-up figures... which... pretend that the situation is far worse than that. Figures designed to get headlines... not make headway.... The figures actually... which I got from the director yesterday... are that the department is counting four hundred and ten vacancies... of those four hundred and ten, two hundred and thirty four are out of commission, they're in homes being refurbished... seventy two are in blocked places, that is... double rooms being lived in by a widow or widower where er they'd previously shared it with the spouse... or er disability reasons, health reasons, behaviour reasons of a resident er... in a previously shared room.... Purposes like that er which take out seventy two places. In fact... as of the first of this month, the number of real vacancies was a hundred and four... now today I've received another list of er so called vacancies... from the Leicestershire South area. As of the thirteenth of the ninth ninety three... I'll just read through one or two of these. Curtis Weston, no vacancies, one short stay vacancy. Demontfort, no vacancies. Endaby, two double rooms being used at single occupancy for Lental House residents, one shared female bed available. So on and so on in Leicestershire South... ten vacancies, seven short stay vacancies.... So you can see Chairman... the facts and figures simply do not support either the report which came to... the social services committee originally or Mr inflated figures.... The true vacancies are a hundred and four across thirty eight homes, we're talking about two or three real vacancies per home.... So Mr talked in the debate about internal reorganisation about continuing to provide services for which there is an over provision and it berated me and the Labour group for that. Well the figures show that... assessments of the over provision are incorrect but... even had they been correct if circumstances were an over provision comes about not because of an increase in our provision of services, but because of expansion in the private sector. Are we supposed simply... to abdicate our responsibility and for every new place that's... started in the private sector, we close down a place in our er organisation. Is that what this is about, that... places can continue to spring up in the private sector and we must close our homes... in order to meet that demand not from elderly people for places but from the private sector for profits.... Placements, April to August... a hundred and fifty nine in nursing homes, two hundred and eight in residential homes in all sectors.... But, we know that April was a low figure, we also know that July and August are low... a figure which comes out from this graph... and was given to me by the director yesterday, is a genuine average which is turning out to be between a hundred and a hundred and ten placements per month... twelve hundred to fourteen hundred placements per year... a thr over a three year average residency period... three thousand six hundred to four thousand two hundred placements in residential care, where... then is the real problem.... The problem is with the fact that seventy five to eighty percent of people are being directed towards the private sector... and only twenty to twenty five percent towards the public sector, yet... still the private sectors squeal.... I've got here a copy of a letter... by Peter spokesperson for care, a more misnamed organisation you couldn't wish to come across, a combined association of residential establishments.... A letter to G P s. Dear doctor,... we have noticed that as a result of a press article, copy enclosed, that there's been concern stressed by a number of general practitioners with regards the slowness of the social services controlled community care programme... as an association on behalf of our residential and nursing home members... we have been stating the same fact to social services who have basically denied the existence of any problem, although we hope that in the long term the social services will be able refine their system to be more efficient, as an interim measure we are offering you a direct line service. If you wish to effect a placement in a residential or nursing home... we hope for the time being it will help resolve your problem. This is an attempt... to circumvent the assessment process. They cannot of course do that, this letter described by the director of social services as a disgrace. No, people sitting across in the other benches saying of course they can are wrong. Of course they can't.... People may put themselves into residential care if they wish... they will pay the whole of the bill.... If they wish to be assessed as needing residential care and using public money then they have to go through the assessment process and be assessed as needing residential care.... So... this letter which refers to our processes in this county council, it's talking about people who want to go into residential care and to use public money.... All of that being said... and... Mr will talk a bit more about the figures when he... comes to speak. People will no doubt be relieved to hear what has finally been included in the planning sub-committee resolutions. That homes already furbished or in the process of being refurbished or identified for refurbishment shall not be closed and will re-open as county council E P H s. That reassurance is essential... to residents, staff and to the community.... That's what they desperately want to hear. We have also decided that we will look again at the costs of refurbishment. That we will seek to refurbish... the homes which will cost least to refurbish, first.... That way... we will achieve more in the period and for the money that is available.... That will leave us, presumably at the end of this process with... some of the worst homes, which we will then have to decide... what to do about.... So... although the Labour group will be moving a reference back of this matter... as an amendment.... I have to say that our input into what is going on is still very strong. We are still attempting... to persuade people that the figures they have been given or have invented are wrong... and if we operate on the real figures... there is no reason for mass closures of elderly persons homes... and we are still attempting to make the refurbishment programme... work as best we can... to achieve the most we can in the shortest period and for the least money. Chairman I move formally. [speaker002:] Seconder. Sec Right we have... an amendment to be moved by Mr. [Ryan:] I thought you would... Chairman, take it later I see a lot of hands up on the other side.... erm... The reason why... we moved the amendment on this is... er Jim been... and that has, we started to query the figures... I didn't get involved in the... all this week and th people like Jim, David loads of my attention and the whole er exercise was a fraud... they're all bum figures... and when I checked, the figures I have checked here are done by a senior officer... when I showed 'im what stuff was being wrong. apartments... and... I couldn't believe how they they there there could work up such a system... and I'm serious, I I really mean this Mr Chairman, it is serious.... Now what you were doing was, you got the top figure... of available beds... and you this time, I'm only going for the this paper that is shown to me... a an an an and produced some place in in your apartments... and it says here, partly vacancies weekend in the first of August. I was surprised when I found out who the officer, a very capable officers what's done the figures. But then I was reminded... how I thought of a an accountant who was at work... what figure was five and five... and he said what figures did you have in mind.... So what has happened here I believe, that... there was someone told, I don't know who it was was told... this is the figure, now you you you're. I will say that because as, we haven't heard the end by a long way for, of this one. Jim pointed out that... and when I looked at, in the report here, page fifteen, two of your paper... and there it says in little letters B, little little two... appendix B a during the year, a three year period from June ninety three to October ninety six, the level of occupancy... the department's afford.... Vacancies who arise from five seventeen, had a figure of five seventeen, when I looked at this now, how could y, where did they get the figures from this. Didn't that someone to do the the the homework for them.... So you did, right at the top one as I said two thousand... four three four... and then the closure of Coulson House in it.... Well I hope there's nobody in Coulson House because it's boarded up... and I cannot see how you get a vacant bed in Coulson House and this is this exercise. So we take that away... and then you got the refurbishment programme... and now taken away from the refurbishment programme something like two hundred, now where is the if you're refurbishing four homes... where is the vacancies when you close the home, you have made the staff the redundant, they go up the road or out wherever they're going to redundancy... persons. You have made 'em red, you have made 'em redundant... and you in, in... you have... and I hope you've had nobody redundant because I've I'd be pleased to go out to those homes and say them come back and I would be pleased to go up to and say you've got your figures... wrong because you're saying that nobody's made redundant... ooh well I I'm so pleased. I hope I've been given... I hope I be... the temporary staff but,... those homes are being refurbished, there are no vacant beds in those homes because they are being refurbished. You are carrying that number forward. Now if you have a rolling programme... and you wanna say we refurbish four at a time, roughly... I would say fifty beds in these two hundred, give or take... some money because they vary.... That's taken out, must be taken out of the calculation because they're not vacant, you can't get anybody in there, the criteria I say, should be beds available for permanent occupation. Now... you count on that... but the next vote... then comes in and they're still not available... beds are not available in it, and the next four and the next four so you'll have, for years you'll have those out of operation... would you like to call it that way... and out of production. Now to weight that... and the next one... is... respite an short stay beds as you mentioned. Now if you any system you got to have beds... for short stay etcetera, you don't count them into whether the those are vacant, because you have to keep some of those vacant in emergencies etcetera... so you can't count them. Well, this is how you got the figures... and then you have the temporary absence as Jim pointed out... and advance bookings. I got a higher figure than Jim because I was... I can't believe, believe this either th th the officer that, that, that, done this say to the, the, that's the figures that have produced... then they're completely wrong... and I can tell [Roberts:] Time... time... time [Ryan:] Time, right, I am moving the amendment the reference back and I'm handing those papers to the Chief Executive and I'm gonna ask the Chief Executive to get someone independent to do this... because you can't get away from the numbers that the numbers... I've get someone independent I'll ask for that. You can't get away with a with a fraud like this. You can't away with er some bum figures like this one, it's not good enough for the members... to give, be given wrong information... and I and I can tell you this... we'll be coming back again and then we would know and where they were getting where they were getting the seventeen homes [speaker002:] Time [Ryan:] Closed right down no... is a load of bloody bunkum... the whole I move [speaker002:] Have we a seconder? Have Mr [Clements:] Thank you Mr Chairman.... For Mr information... the vacancies are the difference between the number of beds we maintain and the number of residence we have. Every bed in that difference has to be paid for with wasted money... but in addition the loss of income from that bed has to be found from cuts elsewhere in social services. I frankly can't deal in the time allowed with what Mr said, I have never heard so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in a speech, it was the most comprehensive political suicide speech I've heard yet in this council. The truth is Mr Chairman that community care had as it's major objective... extending choice, give the chance to stay at home to many people for as long as possible, to eliminated the unwanted percentage of residential placements. What it's revealed, totally unexpectedly... is the vast extent to which inappropriate placements have taken place for many years. Totally unexpected because frankly no government, no civil service would have given us as much money for residential places as they did if they'd known. The knumdrum where the people have gone has now been answered because... the amount of domiciliary care needed to keep them out of residential places to meet their needs and wishes turns out to be... very much less than we expected, on average less than seven hours a week. This report Mr Chairman is already history which is as Mr has said not to say it doesn't represent... progress, it addresses for the first time the historical issues, it starts to address the lessons of the first quarter. We now know the outcome of the second quarter... ignoring today and tomorrow which can bring, can make no... major change in the scale of what we face. Leaving the rest of community care aside, the admissions to our part three E P H s were thirteen in July, twelve in August and in the first twenty eight days of September, just four. That's less than one placement for every ten homes over the quarter, an average of less than ten in total per month.... We must now fear with good reason that it was the first three months which were not typical. Late last year I was accused of scaremongering, dismissive speakers rubbished the remarks of the district auditor, not interested in what he was saying. The only thing I could be safely accused of was understating the problem. I still commend this report to council as the first real stride along the road we have to take, there's no choice about that.... This stride and those that have followed... last week, as recently as last week as Mr said are already miles back along that road.... The s the revolution of social services called for a rolling programme and a rolling review and the amendment Mr is utterly meaningless because... the matter will be constantly referred back and further considered by social services whatever the amendment says that's what the original resolution said.... It... contains a rolling review precisely so that it should remain a valid basis for whatever tomorrow may bring. In truth... the rolling review has become a running review... circumstances are changing with no respect for the committee cycle. Indeed some of us think we now know what bankers in the republic felt like, if you stand up to make a speech the matter has moved on before you sit down again but I must tell you of the next major problem. Flowing from that... that which social service must face urgently... and that is this. From the low admission rate, the nine hundred thousand in our revenue budget which was shown this year as savings, seven hundred thousand of which was met by fudging community care money in June... is now... short by three hundred thousand so at the end of this year there will be an overspend or rather a loss of income of three hundred thousand... which will show up as a deficit on social services budget for this year. Next year the full year effect of the revenue budget... one point five five million, already two hundred thousand short, the estimated loss of income from reduced placements will now put another eight hundred thousand on that... er, so there will be a million next year, so I have to tell you there is a gap of one point three million pounds in the social services budget which we have not yet faced.... Mr Chairman the social services committee and it's sub- committees face many more agonizing d decisions.... Nobody wants to close any bed that is offering a good quality service, that is wanted and being used. No one can afford to keep open beds that are not being used, not just losing savings... but soaking up resources that can only come from cuts in other vital social services.... The social service of this council. [speaker002:] You're on time. [Clements:] Are controlled and driven... by events... not by any one party or any parties. For the sake of our service and their users we must ensure we are not overrun by those events. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr [Clements:] The support of the whole council now would recognise [speaker002:] Thank you Mr [Clements:] and gratefully aid that work. [speaker002:] Mr please. [Parsons:] Chairman, I must confess to being erm, to being somewhat pessimistic about this whole er... this this whole problem of of the need to refurbish and the need to tackle numbers in our elderly persons homes. I I listened to Mr speech with some incredulity I must say, but I did listen to what he said and if what he said is true then I... I find some of the things... disturbing and and er I'd like to see his figures and I... I w I I... that there have certainly been er two messages coming to the social services committee in in in that case.... I'm pessimistic because I believe that if the council is to tackle what I still believe to be a big problem... of the local authority then it cannot really do so without [clears throat] the support... of the largest party on this authority and if... we have heard... erm an honest assessment of their perception of of the case, I I really I really do despair that this council... will will get to the bottom of the problem.... Er, we were told by Mr that there is no problem with numbers, remember there are two, there are two things we've got to tackle, one is numbers, two is conditions in our home.... I mean, one's, one's entitled to ask I think if there is no problem, if we only have vacancies of two or three in our elderly persons homes... throughout the county... wh erm... why on earth did the director of the social serv, did the director of social services and his deputy at the meeting on the twenty fifth of August of the social services committee, say that this was the greatest problem which was facing this council.... Why on earth eighteen months ago did the district auditor issue a letter saying that unless the council did something about the situation of numbers and of finance within its elderly persons homes then it would come in and it would require the council to... take action.... Why on earth on the twenty fifth of August at the social services committee meeting did Labour put an amendment which accepted that there was a vacancy problem... I quote from the Labourer, from from Labour amendment... that er we don't agree to closures, fair enough, that's your position.... But that that we ask for an exploration of the feasibility of widening the use of homes... into nursing care, very sheltered accommodation, apartment style accommodation etcetera. Now if there is no problem... why on earth do we have to put that sort of... that sort of work by officers erm, in, in to action erm, so between the, if I understand Labour's position now Chairman, between the twenty fifth of August and the twenty eighth of September, we have now gone from accepting the problem and seeing how we can solve a number problem to saying that there is no no number problem and that everyone is cooking the books. I find that quite incredible, if it's true erm... if it's true then it's a very serious allegation which Labour is making against the officers in social services department... and I imagine that if er, that if those numbers are proven then er I I shall be looking... I shall be looking for scalps because I have been, I would have been, so would the Liberal party and so would the Labour party, have been wrongly informed. I don't believe we have been wrongly informed but that's the logic of the charge which has been made.... I I simply, I simply want er er a direct message from from the programme which is going on Chairman... incidentally I I note that Nottinghamshire County Council erm has found a a and the Labour group there has found it necessary to tackle... just the same problems... erm in elderly persons homes and that I understand that they have a a closure list of seven, now presumably that has been drawn up from a long list of a lot more than seven, say fourteen or fifteen from which they've made their final choice. I think we're entitled to ask if Nottinghamshire faces those problems, what is peculiar about Leicestershire that it did face those problems but all of a sudden it doesn't face those problems. I I don't think myself and I still have an open mind and I don't think that the Labour case... erm... adds up to be perfectly honest. I simply wanna say two things and that is this that within a month if this scheme is to work I believe that the council or the social services committee must draw up a long list of homes which it proposes to close and that long list will be in teams and that must be done not behind closed doors so that people know what is being proposed, we level with people who live in those institutions and they are fully acquainted with our, with our intentions... and secondly I think it's necessary to understand from this programme... that it is not just refurbishment programme, it is a refurbishment and closure programme... the simple equation being that the money that comes from closures from capital receipts and some revenue savings, actually goes into the rest to refurbish them. That is the scheme er as as I see it and unless, unless I I thi, unless that is progressed quickly then as I say I am extremely pessimistic and let me just... say Chairman the dangers of not going along that line... the dangers of the present scheme which was at the last planning committee meeting or or or was it... one of the social services committee anyway, where four were chosen or or it was said choose a small number.... That I think is half a programme and while that might... erm... while that might appeal to er members of the Liberal party, half a cake's better than none. What I think the danger is there, from a Conservative political perspective, is that having, having, Liberals having with us if you like, got the principle through, Liberals may then go with the Labour party and say right we've got the principle through, we've identified four homes, let's have a refurbishment programme, a bit of airport money here, a bit of slippage there and we'll get this through and then we'll tackle the problem of closures and if closures is proving difficult let's ignore it for a year, let's do these four and let's go on. I would not recommend to this side that they have any truck with that particular perspective. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Parsons:] Erm, that is why I I b, that is why I'm against the amendment, I believe that decisions have been made.... I still n, I still think that we need to make er quick pro progress Chairman but er unless we do make quick progress and unless we do understand what's going on and call a spade a spade then I think this programme is doomed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mrs [Buxton:] Thank you Chair. Mr asked why we should close our homes and let private homes profit... erm, if people choose either to go into the private sector or to stay into their own homes, what are we supposed to do... tell them they've got no choice but to keep our substandard homes going? That's quite ridiculous. He says seventy to seventy five percent are being directed towards the private sector... so why. I thought our social services people did that... if they run that why should they direct people away from their own livelihoods. That's quite ludicrous, why should they shoot themselves in the foot... and is Mr seriously suggesting the same thing? I mean apart from a monstrous attack on our own officers who can't answer for themselves in this place. Why should they be prejudicing the the jobs of the their colleagues, I, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Now I think the tables speak for themselves... and they're born out by paragraph sixteen B of the report on page fifty nine.... I just wonder when Mr asks for other figures from the independent sector... what would have happened if the figures that you've got before you today had actually come from the private sector. I suspect he would have been making exactly the same speech but saying that the figures were suspect because they had been come from somewhere else.... Thank you. [speaker002:] Mrs [Avanby:] Thank you Chairman. I re do regret that this has come to full council yet again because I thought we'd already had the debate.... At the social services planning committee... we stated that we were anxious to make a fresh start in addressing the problems of our elderly persons homes.... In the end Chairman,... we did reach consensus... and I find no difficulty with that.... But our original vision... had almost been lost... in the unclean political battles which have taken place.... I re-read the speech that I gave in this full council chamber... on November the twentieth nineteen ninety one... nothing has changed except possibly it has got worse.... What has changed though is the refurbishment programme and I'm not quite sure what Mr was on about about er er the refurbishment programme. The officers advised us... that we could deal with four homes a year. So that's why we said well let's get on and decide which of the next four homes to be refurbished. So as that we could have the rolling programme.... No one should ever underestimate the trauma of change on res on residents... their relatives... and the staff involved, either in the refurbishment programme or... in future closers and we have never denied that there will not be closures, we have consistently proposed that there should be.... It's unfortunate that yet again... the Mercury got it wrong... they stated that we had made a decision to close four homes ... unnamed... that is not true and I do agree with Mr... that when we make a decision to close... some homes that they should be named to avoid the terrible indecision which exists at the moment. I'm sorry Mr has referred to closures in their teens cos this again throws residents and staff into total confusion... we're too early... in the... programme of community care to know how many homes are going to close. We do know that two or three or four may have to in the foreseeable future.... But without rationalisation Chairman... we will not be able to extend those services that we all know that we want to assist people to stay in their own homes. We've argued for years... about meals on wheel service... that there should be seven day a week service throughout this authority, we've only got it in the City, we want it throughout the authority.... We will not be able to supply an adequate home care service without the release of the resources that are tied up in our elderly persons homes.... We shall not be able to produce ethnically appropriate services without the necessary finance... and nor will we be able to develop new services which are innovative to assist people to stay in their own homes and I'm just going to take one moment to mention one or two Chairman. Why can't you have a flying warden service if you stay in your own home like in warden assisted accommodation. I'd love to see a service where somebody could come and knock on your door in the morning... and say are you alright and call again in the evening, just as if you were in warden assisted accommodation. If we have a night sitting service, an elderly person may not have to go in hospital if they are temporarily gone off their legs as sometimes happens.... After tiny U-turns Chairman... two by the Tories and one by the Labour group, I do... hope that finally we're going to make progress tonight. Thank you. [speaker002:] Professor. [Pritcher:] I was only going to say Chairman I wish people wouldn't... band the figures around the council chamber which nobody... has seen before therefore can't assess.... The issue here is quite simple, Labour... have consistently... turned their back on any closures, that's fair enough, so you wouldn't expect them then to produce figures... which demonstrate that they're right. The Conservatives have now... the Conservatives have now decided... that home closure is the thing and you'd expect them to produce figures to say we've got to have thirteen or whatever number closed. What the, I believe committees have never had and least of all Mr... papers produced on behalf of Mr have never had a serious... rigorous... objective assessment of... the vacancy situation of the future which first of all starts from issue... a rolling programme of refurbishments... that we haven't really seen sight of the of the implications of that on the number of vacancies. This has never had it... so this... as far as I'm concerned really, the only thing that is needs to be made clear, is that we must accept... of principle... that's all we need to... reason. [speaker002:] Mr. [Radford:] Chairman I think this is probably the first time in this council chamber in twenty years... that er I will probably have spoken on er social services issues... er and I speak from an entirely private capacity and any information that er... that comes my way is from what I might call... informed members of the public... erm, people who I come into contact with and from my own experiences as a ward councillor and from... as we all do from time to time, my own family experience, my own domestic experiences... and I do know... something about the problems which are associated with the... the care of elderly people... er although I don't have that problem now... erm... things have taken their course. Er, Professor is right... erm... there may always be a possibility that at some time er you have to... you have to recognise that there may be excess capacity in the system... and I I don't believe that the Labour party is not prepared to recognise that there may well be... excess capacity in the system at some time.... S what in fact er Mrs said... is too early in the process of... community care... to know how many homes you have to close... she really is approaching it from the wrong way, it's equally too early in the process of community care to know how many homes... you need to have open, keep open or open... and that is one of the problems which I believe this council and other councils will will face. Now from my... observations of these debates... I've not heard anybody on this council saying council debates that there is no role... for... this local authority or any other local authority... there is no role for them in the provision of residential care... or any extension of residential care because some of our residential care... is getting very, very close to providing a degree of nursing care. Nobody stands up and says that we shouldn't be in the business at all, we should get rid of all of them, so all the argument about how many.... Every group in this council and I believe every member who speaks, agrees that we have a need to refurbish homes. So those are the positive things about which we we all agree.... Now I would... urge this council that it really is too early in the process for you to start making up your minds about what you're gonna in future. You simply do not have enough data.... There is... a perception amongst informed people in the community... that... there may well be a shortage of long stay beds in Leicestershire... and you do need to bear in mind... that the National Health Service... is increasingly going down the road... of not keeping people in hospitals longer than they have to because hospitals are perceived as being... very, a very expensive way... of providing beds... and you have to take that into account because that's a fairly clear national policy... and you are likely to see an acceleration in that process from what I read... in the national press.... There's also a general view in the community that community care itself is not necessarily really working very well, there's some fears about it, some uncertainties... and a member did mention, it may have been Jim you know or somebody mentioned about the seven hours domiciliary, from my experience as a councillor... I am not sure that simply because that figure exists that that means that that is satisfying the need of those people... and in any case... the sort of people who need to go into residential care, who can no longer be maintained in their home, with whatever help we give them or with whatever help their family have to give them... they're not necessarily the sort of people who we're talking about need to go in a home. You must always remember that it's been a fairly small percentage of the frail elderly people who've actually ever had to go into homes. Most of the people in some way or other, have been looked after by somebody else and that's the experience which I... I've certainly gone through... and if in fact you start making up your mind too early... about which homes you're going to [speaker002:] Near time [Radford:] close, I can assure you Chairman... recognise the time, I can assure you Chairman... that our social workers when doing assessments will not, because I've had this from them, at grass roots level in a branch local party meeting,... that our social workers will not indicate to those people who they've assessed that there are vacancies in those homes. They steer people away from any home which they believe is likely to be closed... and once you start doing this, you will in fact be sealing the fate of those homes and you it's a very, very dangerous game, you've gotta be, you've gotta play it very, very carefully indeed and I... hope Chairman that there can be a degree of... common sense and rationality introduced into discussions between the... members of the various groups who have to deal with these very difficult issues. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr [speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Well I believe that the report that er... is before us that has been moved... erm... actually sets out a framework which the social service committee is able to... work to... and to monitor and I see no point whatsoever in referring this... back to social services... erm... to delay further what is the inevitable. The figures that have been mentioned er... and the danger with figures that are mentioned... is that they can't be everything... to everybody. Now eighteen months ago... we had three hundred and, it was April, the report in April nineteen ninety two... there were three hundred and sixty... five I think it was... places that were... vacant in our homes and this is before we started the refurbishment. Now if... Jim is telling us that there are four hundred and ten vacancies now... and he's explained where those four hundred and... ten vacancies are... we've picked up another fifty p places within that eighteen months.... So we do have a problem to address... but the... I I like Mr would certainly want some explanation from the director of social services if... erm the report that we have before us at the... planning sub-committee is incorrect because I deal with it said it it be noted that the capacity now exists to arrange for the transfer of residents from four homes to other res residential units as part of the rationalisation programme. Not part of the refurbishment programme, not the difference. So we do have a problem... and and we need to grasp that... the a conclusion... talking about rolling programme... we are concerned about resources we're, we're, we're concerned about using them to the best... advantage. We set up to be able to look at the refurbishment of our homes. Now if we are going to say that this rolling programme, we we don't mean this rolling programme because it it's all going back to committees again to be... to be looked at... then we are putting our at a disadvantage... they will disband and the cost to us for refurbishment... will... increase.... It's essential that in the terms of the... er report from the social service committee that we work, we work to the framework within that report. We have the ability to monitor it and I think that the discussions will have to take place as the director brings forward his proposals.... There is a great deal within that framework... er, it's not just about closing... elderly persons homes, it's not just about refurbishment... it's about resources and it's resources that we're very short of, to implement the sort of care programme that this council should be addressing. Thank you. [speaker002:] Er, Mr Thank you Mr Chairman.... As I, as I said earlier the new boy, the rather elderly new boy... but I can assure the Professor if I were a hundred years old I'd still be younger than 'im. That's how I look at life.... Now... I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I wondered whether you'd ever get it or not, come on quick quick.... Now what we'll be Mr Chairman is this. This has been hanging about for a long, long time... while I've been on this... and these people... and they're very special people... I've got this sword of hanging over my head.... Now... these, why do I call these special people, for the first thing... we're just coming out of a recession... they s [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] With three million unemployed [speaker002:] These people suffered the depression... and if you saw deprivation... that was deprivation.... There were no giros in them days. I beg your pardon. Now... they went into war, they came out of this war... the weren't, there was no tip of the glory for them. There was fourteen feet of snow... floods... but the main thing about these people, they took their jackets off and got stuck in... and they became special people because they laid... the foundation of the welfare state that everybody else in this room g gained out of.... They got the jackets off, they did the job, they laid it out for us. Now surely we owe these people something better than this... surely... there's got the wickedness out or the intelligence to get... this thing off the ground. If we've got to close homes, let's close them but make sure the homes that's left are warm... welcoming and give these people the dignity... and the independence to which they are entitled to... which they've earned and which they thoroughly deserve. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr do you want to speak or reserve your remark. [Roberts:] Yeah, I think some of the new members should wait to speak Chair.... Chair, sorry... right, I I've I I've don't very often. It's gone, it's gone... [LAUGHTER] I don't very often agree with [] Professor... erm... I very often don't agree with David either but I've got to admit that I agree with both of them today, we've got to make haste slowly on this one. It's alright... us starting to... go along the road of closures, but some of us have been here... through it a lot, little bit longer than others and I think... we have got to watch what we're doing. We don't know... what the capacity is gonna be needed in the future.... If the government gets its way and starts slapping... seventeen and a half percent, twenty percent V A T on fuel, we might need some more residential places... you don't know. If the figures that we've been given... the recent figures, cos w I've been working on figures for August... up to August but now we've got even better figures. If these figures are right... that we've been given by the department and I'm not saying them whether they're right or whether they're wrong... but... well we have to r rely on what we're getting this is why Mr... is sending this lot to the Chief Executive for him to do some work... I think it's very important that it is done independently, not by the independent sector but by done independently. If those figures are right of four hundred and ten now... you don't need to... be a real big mathematician, even at this time of night,... but you, if you have the two hundred and thirty four... out of commission and you've got to have those cos that's gotta be a rolling programme each four years. You're gonna have that two hundred odd... there rolling over, it's gotta happen until the end of the programme and that is likely to take six, seven, eight... years. [speaker001:] You're way about half a century. [Roberts:] That might be the simplest way... and if you add that to the seventy two that are out of commission short term beds, holiday beds, which you've got to keep empty anyway. You've got your three hundred and six. Now... we've been told by, in reports... that we've got... five, six hundred up to ni, we're gonna have nine hundred vacancies... this is Mr ... at committee I said that [speaker001:] unclear [speaker002:] Can we, can we come through the Chair [Roberts:] I think it's, it's very interesting that erm... the these figures are there. Now if we're gonna have those sort of figures we're talking about. What are we basing them on?... I want to see, I'm I mean I saw Mr and erm Mr nodding when Martin said he wanted to give these figures to the Chief Exec... and ask him to er... get it sorted out. I think that's right so, we we mustn't even start even thinking about closing beds at the moment. If we've only got two or three in each home empty, where are the people going to? I've checked with Demontfort House... today.... Ear early before I came over here and they've got no vacancies... none... none at [LAUGHTER] Demontfort House at all. We're told, we're told though in the report for Au for August... that we've got so many vacancies here, if we look at Nuffield House in the August report there was fourteen, but we're only just refilling it again [LAUGHTER] after closing it. [] We're only just refilling it. Now... I don't know where... Mr has got some of his figures from but I think we ought to... check... both our figures and his figures before we start jumping to [speaker001:] Not my figures please. Erm Mr Chairman on a point of information, the figures he has obtained on my figures are figures in a report... issued by the director of social services and I think on a point of... information he should acknowledge that they are the figures given by the officers. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] They were not supplied [Roberts:] And orders from you, yep. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roberts:] Now we must keep... we must keep be I know people and I'm sure every member in this council chamber knows people that need respite care. If you don't you're not wal you're walking around with your eyes closed.... I certainly do in my patch. There are people that we are redirecting, we were re redirecting... from Demontfort House at one time, it was denied... denied by by officers that it was happening. Denied by Mrs she had a letter.... But you ask the people that work there, you ask social [LAUGHTER] workers []. That place was gradually being run down... like a lot of the other are. [speaker002:] David, near time. [Roberts:] As far as the Nottinghamshire erm... thing... the reason Notts are having to close it is because the they've been capped haven't they and they've gotta save money. Now I think this is what's behind all this actually. Not to do with looking after people at all. It's to start saving money and give some and give some of this money to their private sector friends. Once again this is what's happened. [speaker002:] Thank you David, thank you. [Roberts:] So Chair, I will second these resolut, the the amendment. [speaker002:] Mr [Roberts:] Yes, thank you Chair, erm... A lot of this debate circles around... what we do about community care, I have to tell this council... as far as I'm concerned, community care's dead in the water.... Without massive input from central government and local government there is no community care... there are people out there... not receiving the services they deserve... With no prospect of receiving the services they deserve. Let's not pretend that we can escape from our responsibility to these old people... by pretending that the community will take care of them, that's not the way it's gonna be.... er... Mr talked about the figures, I'm convinced that the figures that, that I was given still include Perzon House... I'm convinced that those figures were not, have not been taken out... erm... I don't know who should audit the figures, perhaps the internal audit should audit the figures. [speaker001:] Yes, Yes, here, here. [Roberts:] Mr was completely wrong about the Labour amendment... erm... in fact he read out the wrong amendment altogether. The Labour amendment was to explore ways in which resources can be provided to fund and enhance refurbishment programme without closures and that for the next two years the additional necessary funding be sourced from... housing benefit income and income from the sale of East Midlands Airport and from other capital receipts. Now... if the Labour group had moved a widening of erm... the sort of provision in our elderly persons homes, I could have understood that, because we didn't have real figures, we could not get hold of real figures, every time I went back to a local party meeting, to the Labour group, to any other member they said, do you realise this home has this number of vacancies and your report says that number. Do you realise that the figures are out that everybody knows that the figures are out. [speaker001:] Is Mr and is er capacity for understatement. [LAUGHTER] His desire to devastate our residential sector and close seventeen homes will be thwarted... somebody... over there, it may have been Mr it may not have been, said that there hadn't been any redundancies.... Arbour House... twenty four staff, twelve redundancies, twelve redeployed.... Huntingdon Court twenty nine staff, ten redundancies, seventeen redeployed, two still in temporary posts. The Limes,... provisional figures twenty nine ninety three, closing during October, thirty four staff, sixteen redundancies, fifteen redeployed, two ill health retirements, one retirement. Bythorpe Hall twenty one redundancies, six lay off agreements, two redeployed, one temporary for a year, one on trial period two to three months. Kurzon House... twenty eight staff, seventeen redundancies of which two... re since redeployed... ten redeployed, one ill health retirement, of course there are no redundancies. We've not made anyone redundant, no one at all.... That Labour amendment I read out... mentioned the airport money. I'm aware... as everybody else is, that we could... do the sort of sweepstake that we carry out on th, what time the meeting's gonna close and everybody can just put down how [LAUGHTER] many times the the airport money had been spent. [LAUGHTER] But the real fact is if this council regards elderly persons homes as the priority it pretends... then it has to be the first priority for that money.... It doesn't have to stand in line... behind anything else.... About... er refurbishment and closure programme Mr talked about, a a refurbishment and closure programme is a Tory programme, not a Labour programme... and of course this is all verified by Mrs coming along to the committee... and saying please don't close Barleythorpe Hall, please tell the people that you're going to re-open Barleythorpe Hall, please do not allow them to think that it's going to close. Has anyone seen Barleythorpe Hall?... Does anyone know what needs to be done there, what the work is and how much it is gonna cost, I'm sure Mrs seen it.... So why are social workers directed people into the private sector, they are under the same constant pressure of letters from the private sector, the wingeing, the groaning, the moaning, the threats of... legal action, the threats of judicial review as the rest of us. Hardly surprising that they over compensate is it... put people into the private sector. I didn't understand her questions... was it the figures had come from the private sector I'm not sure if she understood it herself either... erm... we've talked... in the... social services planning cuts committee about a list of homes for refurbishment... and Mr wanted a very long list... er... a list which would blight every home not on the list.... Mrs talked about four, we've actually agreed that there should be more homes on the list than four... er for prospective refurbishment... and... Mr has stood up and protested that he did not produce the figures, but Professor... still says you will produce figures for this and you will produce figures for that, none of us do that... we all get our figures from the same place... but we all get inconsistent figures.... erm, Mr knows when he talked about getting rid of all the a ho, our homes that of course, we're not allowed to get rid of all of our homes, if we were the Tories would have moved it years ago.... But... what does happen is that people are directed away from blighted homes... we know that that happens, it happens all the time, as soon as a home's name is mentioned... social workers, quite... honourably believe that there's no sense in putting down people's names, no no sense in sending people there and you would expect nothing different from them so... it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.... The point to Mr, the point of the reference back... is simply to allow us to say that we do not accept the figures that we're being presented with.... We will not accept those figures because they are not correct.... Everybody agrees now that the figures before us are not correct as everybody produces a different set... er, it's alright for Mr to sit there and Mr like Heckyl and Jeckyl saying no we don't, no we don't, but he comes forward with different figures, worst figures [LAUGHTER] than we're presented with in the reports, he does it all the time Chairman.... As for Mr we're out of recession are we?... well... if that's an excuse for saying... let's close homes... well, I think that's a a terrible shame, all he, the certainty that he wants to offer to our elderly people is the certainty that their home will close and they'll be thrown out of it.... People really do have to understand the trauma we are talking about with moving people out of homes, the trauma that... moving them out for refurbishment is bad enough.... But telling them that they will not move back is even worse. We really do... have to put a human face onto these figures and these financial arguments, until we do that, we will not carry any decision... in this council chamber which is worth a light to any single elderly person in any of our homes or outside of our homes Chairman. I recommend to you the amendment. [speaker002:] Right, we now put the amendment. Those in favour please show.... Right, we're just going to count.... right, those against... the amendment is lost, thirty six forty, er those in favour of the substantive motion please say aye. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] Those against. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] The ayes have it. We will now have a fifteen minute recess. Six D the report of public protection committee. Yes, I've just counted them, Robert counts as two, Bob [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that's important [LAUGHTER] you see [] [LAUGHTER] right. That's promotion in the Labour rank... would you like to move the motion please Mr. Would you prepare to move the motion please. [Ryan:] Yes, sorry Mr Chairman... erm... I move, what'm I doing?... I move in the er public protection report that er Mr Chairman, the bell's still going... [LAUGHTER] do you want me to hang on a minute or what? [speaker002:] No carry on, I, the first bell there they should have been in. Carry on. [Ryan:] But people are gonna miss my blooming speech... they'll miss it. [speaker002:] I know you spent hours, I know you spent hours preparing this speech. [Ryan:] I haven't actually. [speaker002:] The important ones are here, proceed please. [Ryan:] I've prepared the amendment in the... in in removing the port er Mr Chairman I think it's erm... important to note the reason why the public protection committee have asked the report to be put onto the council agenda.... Not simply because... we also want to put our... bid in straightaway for the airport money... which is er [LAUGHTER] contrary to opinion [speaker001:] had been noted. [Ryan:] but to highlight to members of the council the importance of... having... the proper funding er er for the southern fire station.... The reasons for the southern fire station are clearly outlined on page seventy and seventy one... which is an extract from her Majesty's fire... [clears throat] service inspectorate.... In particular item eleven point three... of that where the H M I said sufficient capital... should be provided to enable the provision of the southern fire station to go ahead.... There is... a large area of new build... around where the southern fire station... will be and I do say will be... because it will be. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] That sounded, that sounded er, sounded quite good A promise... and er one of the... im important things er is that the Chief Fire Officer is currently away in... Glasgow at the Fire Service conference, as you're well aware. But I spoke with Mr about half an hour ago on the telephone, told him not to worry at all, that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] that's confidence. [speaker002:] This evening Bob will be changing his amendment to read the funds will be provided rather than consideration. [Ryan:] And the Chief said that doesn't compare... he said that does not concur with a visit I had last night in Glasgow whilst asleep when he awoke to a gleaming light at his bedroom and... he said who are you and this... figure said I am God... and the Chief Fire Officer said well God, all I want to know is one thing, will I get my southern fire station? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] And God said not in my lifetime. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] Cos I've since spoke to God Mr Chairman. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] and he is, as you do, as you do, and he assures me that er we will get the fire station. I don't wish to underestimate it... the, our attendance times... around the Meridian Park area, the large new build area Mr Chairman... erm, our attendance times there are shocking to say the least. No fault of our brigade at all, there's a desperate need for the southern fire station to go ahead without any doubt whatsoever, lives are at risk... and the longer we leave this... the more the costs will keep increasing... and er... I... I believe... that... the airport money... should be used... to build [speaker001:] Another one now, it's all gone now [Ryan:] Owen, it's not spent yet. Trust me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] Trust me I said not truss me, trust me. We have one of the best fire services and the best brigades in this country Mr Chairman... and you none the least Mr Chairman on some of you recent visits and meeting some of our fire personnel are more than aware we are... the the best equipped, the cheapest... brigade... and... our chaps and girls in Leicestershire, the morale is very high, regardless of what's going on around the pay dispute at the moment... and I think that we need to show our support... to those fire personnel and provide the adequate funding for the southern fire station. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Ryan:] I'm assured by Tommy that after I open the... Saw Valley Way er traffic jam on November the third, you you'll get a slight better erm, slightly better chance traffic through, er. [speaker002:] Have we a seconder? Have you reserved any remarks, you want er Mrs... do you wish to speak? I sorry, sorry. [Clements:] We'll have the amendment first shall we? [speaker002:] Yes, let's have the amendment. We have an amendment by Mr. I only did that just to test to see if you were awake. [Parsons:] I think er in an effort to accommodate Mr Chairman, the members here this evening, it's been quite a long day, the the Conservative amendment is very close to... the amendment that both er myself and Mr have put in... and yes we would be willing to... accept that, I think we've got the point across which the only thing missing from the Conservative amendment is the thing about the airport money. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Parsons:] I think I've made that point [speaker002:] Will you accept this subject in the raffle? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Parsons:] Chairman all I've heard so far is music to my ears er thank you. I'd like to er say one or two words before er moving the amendment and I, I'm very pleased to to hear that the two are to be incorporated as it were into this one. Members of the public protection committee take due note of the contents of Her Majesty's Inspector's current report, but in particular we take note of his concerns that the standard of fire cover... in an area to the South West of the city is inadequate. He's repeated his concern to us regularly for eight years... eight years. I've no difficulty in seeing why he's concerned er because I've seen the figures and examine the situation in in great detail. But even without the figures it takes very little imagination to see why this council must not put off any longer the construction and commissioning of the southern fire station.... Imagine with me Chairman if you will... the thoughts of someone trapped by some misfortune in the midst of the wreckage of a road traffic accident... on the M 1 motorway Southbound between junctions twenty one and twenty... that's at Nutterworth or Northbound between twenty one and twenty two... or Westbound on the M 69... they'll be thinking... the fire brigade'll be here in a minute or two. Certainly the first appliance will arrive... but on the opposite carriageway because it's coming from Nutterworth or Hinkley or Colvill... severely hampering what that appliance crew can do speedily.... It's unlikely that they will imagine that the most helpful appliance... is most likely to be one of three, battling to get through the traffic from new parts of Leicester, Lancaster Place Leicester and Wigstone.... Three because the Chief Fire Officer cannot guarantee any longer er that... if he only despatched the one which is necessary, it would actually get through the traffic.... Similarly in the vast residential and commercial areas of Enderby, Norborough, Homkirk, Cosby, Watchton Croft, parts of Broadstone and Meridian itself... the delays have become unacceptable.... This area is the furthest such populated area from a fire station in the county. I have witnessed myself the effects of the delays on a number of occasions. Within the past year a small fire in a large Victorian house only fifty yards from my workplace... watching helplessly while the building became engulfed before the brigade arrived from Leicester and Wigstone, five and six miles distance... distant.... Minutes matter, we all know this because of regular news reports, videos and demonstrations to the committee. I know because many years ago I happened to be in the right place, in the ambulance I was driving at the right time and was able to e effect a rescue of an old woman from her smoke filled house at Burstill Ten minutes later I could not have done it because of the smoke. The fire brigade arriving five minutes later might have done it, ten minutes, definitely not. The Chief Fire Officer advises us that the attendance times to the areas I have mentioned are regularly over the response times allowed by the standards of fire cover.... He tells me that attendances between three and five minutes, over the ten minutes allowed are common.... Five, six, seven, eight minutes are understandable and acceptable... lives are regularly saved in that time. More than the ten minutes allowed is no longer acceptable to the inspector... or to the many thousands of people who live and work in a large and congested area of Leicestershire. Southern fire station will not only direct cover... directly cover these areas but also provide essential back up cover to a much larger area including Glaby, Wigstone, Nutterworth, Hinkley and parts of the City.... It is pleasing... that there is a large degree of support... for the Southern fire station as I said it was music to my ears. This has been expressed by the acquisition of land by this council at Meridian and by placing the scheme in the capital programme as a high priority. At our last meeting... the council noted during question time that Mr and I agree that the saving of life from fire is an overriding priority for this council.... I therefore urge members to agree... on by whatever mechanism the financial experts deem proper, I'll say no more than that, er to place Southern fire station firmly in the capital programme for next year... and ensure revenue monies are available to enable its swift and essential opening. With all sincerity... er Mr Chairman on behalf of the people who live and work in that area I move the amendment. [speaker002:] Mrs Mr. [Clements:] Yes, thank you Chairman. I find this [speaker002:] Just a minute, can you hold just a moment er just a minute [speaker001:] Can I just make it clear Chairman on the amendment. [speaker002:] As I understand the position Mr and Mrs and the council have accepted that amendment so you've now got that as your motion with your debate. [speaker001:] I am pleased to hear that Sir. Chairman it makes the whole thing far simpler I think because there isn't really no disagreement about this whatsoever. I've read about Mr help line, I didn't realise he had a direct connection to the almighty but... he's obviously got his instructions and erm we are very pleased that he's going along the right lines. Now this really is one of the most important things on the agenda today. It is far more important in my view than a token ban on fox hunting on which we spent hours earlier on in the afternoon. This is the kind of thing that we really ought to be addressing because this actually addresses the safety of people in this county, not only the safety of people, this addresses the safety of property as well and there's no disagreement about the fact that this enormous development that's happened over the last few years in an area where you've got a regular traffic snarl-ups mean that you have got a potential disaster there on your hands and we're jolly lucky we haven't any... more serious incidents than we've had already and so I can see no reason why these two mo these two amendments shouldn't both happily be accepted... though I'm very cynical about the number of times we've spent the airport money already and sooner or later we've obviously got to actually seriously address that but the important thing is that we do all take it seriously and it seems that we all do now take it seriously. That what the inspector's been telling us year after year, that we are in serious danger of not... coming up to the... protection safety standards, is something that we can't push into the background any longer and I'm very glad it's come to the full council so that the whole council can take it seriously... the public protection committee has taken it seriously for a very long time. [speaker002:] Mr. [Buxton:] Mr Chairman, I I welcome this opportunity... er of of saying just a very brief word about fire service because as a new member I think one of the services that this county... has... er er is top in is the fire service. It has impressed... but it has to have the right tools... if it is going to provide... the safety that councillor referred to and the saving of life which was referred to by councillor. I welcome too that... the Labour party have accepted the amendment. We now have a a piece of land... which we can't use for fox hunting, so let's use it for the purpose it was bought for, use it for the fire station. But why I am pleased... that this has been, that the amendment has been accepted is... because of the words... and that projection's been made of the eventual revenue requirements to enable proper future provision to be budgeted for. It is very important this is done, we can join the raffle for the East Midlands airport and I'll tell you this I will help you pick out the winning ticket... er but... we cannot use the East Midlands airport money for revenue to run the stations. To often we have heard of buildings that have been put under capital expenditure and then the revenue has not been available for their use. I think we must make it a positive step forward that this council not only goes forwards to build but it goes forward to use that building and give the firemen of this county... the right tools, or firewoman, the firemen and the firewoman of this county the right tools to work with. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr [Avanby:] I suppose I'm the er ghost at the feast.... First of all I that at no time... have the Labour, the Liberal and the Conservative not been totally in favour of this fire station. They were last year, they gave an undertaking to do it as soon as possible, it is a case of where the money comes from... er... Mr of course is relatively new... er we don't bother about as a rule about what he casts as new costs in new staff. We just passed the revenue, the capital, the revenue then goes on the base budget, is called the revenue consequence of capital expenditure and all the fire officers ask for is enough to build a fire station... and the cost of running it is automatically going onto your bill.... Now somewhere we've gotta sort this out, because this is part of last year. Figures may be updated I seem to remember the fire station somewhere in the region of a million plus... and the cost of running it was three hundred thousand a year. Now both of these costs were fine, if this is your priority it's alright. I hope you'll pick out what's got to come from the East Midlands National airport, can I remind you that... a list of that has already been made and passed by this council when there was not a Conservative majority... and that had on it about seventy traffic calming schemes... bottlenecks' ll be done all over this county which in themselves save accidents and save lives. Now... er... there are some areas based in my area where you wouldn't get the fire station, the fire engine... through the bottleneck in ten minutes... erm, all this has got to be put in its relative priority. Now as long as this is council budget if this is what you prefer rather than Dovelands school... that's alright, this is the problem that the financial committee will be faced with this year. Urgent demand for which I totally agree... for millions more than the money is available... er, as long as all the council says this is our priority of course you can have it. As long as you're answerable... for the other priorities that can't be met. I'm totally in support of this, I'm support of a lot, want to be done. As long as we accept that there is a limit to what can be done and that in no way's detracted from fire station. I'm delighted... fire station's run... at a low cost. Members here sometimes were almost ashamed of the fact. There's also want more money to cheapest in the country and I say good... and I hope we can fit it in... this budget time and I hope we all support this, for this. I hope when the financial sub-committee... suggests the capital expenditure... one isn't there. You will carry back to your electorate and tell them why it wasn't there. Do you want Dovelands put back?... cos Dovelands didn't come on this year either and this is a a dilemma that will face us all. I'm delighted it it's a Conservative erm... er resol er erm amendment... that I think is agreed by all the council. That all agree this is a very high priority. Next February will you still live with that priority. [speaker001:] Well we will, you might not. [speaker002:] Thank you for putting some life in the proceedings Jim. Mr. [Pritcher:] In short all I hope that er this unanimous er feeling for the fire service stays in this next pending dispute. I hope you still support firemen through their troubled times in the next few months. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Right Mr you want to reply... like to reply. [Radford:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman.... Very quickly... erm... er... the Mrs said that er yes I do have a direct er line to God and one of the messages he did give me was that I should start to write Focus. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Radford:] Perhaps we could er [speaker002:] I thought God was writing that [Radford:] Very constructive... er Mr. Mr erm er we've actually got the land for the er the fire station, I think you you were there with us. [speaker001:] Well it can't be used for fox hunting now. [Radford:] That's true.... erm, it's actually sitting there on the Meridian er Business Park, it's been sitting there for three years... er overgrown with er... grass and what have you and it's there. Mr just very quickly... erm I disagree with your analogy about the ghost... but probably the rest of it, I'm not too sure... erm... the figures for the running of the fire station have been updated. It's no longer three hundred thousand pounds, the Chief Fire Officer and the Deputy Chief Fire Officer along with the er, the finance wizard David, have worked very very hard on er producing revised figures, scrimping and scraping... equipment from other stations... and the the actual figure is about a hundred and sixty four thousand pounds now. We brought the figure down... having at le, and waited two years and that's th, I think that proves the lad's foundation to the argument... of how desperate the fire service need, need this station and it has absolutely nothing to do with Dovelands school er er whatsoever... as far as I'm concerned, I'm the spokesperson for public protection not education and that's it... and er I'm surprised er er that I know erm er er that Mr is is a very, very good supporter of the er southern fire station and supported us in the er... in the er question we asked at the last council er meeting and er... I'm surprised he hasn't spoke or even Mr... who er, who likes to s, who likes to speak in the chamber but I've... hasn't supported the fire station. Thank you very much. [speaker002:] Would those in favour of the amendment... I'm very sorry but er it's not an automatic right, sorry, I'd like to have called him but... er we've summed up, what do we do now? We have re, technically reached the end of the debate I'm very sorry Mr... I'm sorry... you'll have to wave a little I'm very sorry... er, those in favour of the... ame amendment. [speaker001:] It's an amended motion [speaker002:] The amended motion please show. So that's subject to Robert getting confirmation on Sunday then. [Radford:] Er... I wish to move that the... er motion which is on the green order paper. I do draw... member's er... an an in particular Mr attention to... paragraphs seven and eight of the report. Paragraph seven making it clear... put that an initial assessment has already... established... er... it has already passed the preliminary assessment stage... er and that er... the director is undertaking the data collection procedure so that the site can be properly assessed and I do drawn... er Mr attention... er to that... I erm... have taken the opportunity during the last adjournment Chairman to to speak to Mr about the appropriateness... of the wording of his er er amendment and I believe that he... he may... wish to... er move something which is slightly different... er which will certainly er... we'll deal with that er if he does move that but er... it clearly is the intention of this report and of the committee that when the... work has been completed on the assessment of traffic calming measure in Shalford and its priority established, that we would then bring er another report... er to the highways and transportation committee in response to this petition... er as as indeed is set out in paragraph ten B... and if Mr wished that to be brought forward through to council then that will be done but I leave to him if he wish to move an amendment to make it quite clear, since er... I must say this motion is rather bland. [speaker002:] Mr [Roberts:] Seconded Chair, reserve my remarks. [Ryan:] Can I, I would like to... change the wording of the er amendment and I'm grateful to Mr for the advice he gave because I think by erm a slightly shorter and er... er brisker wording I can achieve the objectives that I set out to achieve. If if if we... if I withdraw the amendment in in terms that's on the order paper and substitute... after the, after the... erm, wording where it goes [reading] traffic calming measures on the B forty one at Charnford [] and add on... and that a further report be presented on traffic calming measures in response to the petition.... If that could be added... that would achieve my objectives... and we can all get on to the debate about V A T on. [speaker002:] Is that acceptable? [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Thank you.... Agenda item seven.... Confirmation of minutes of committees and sub committees.... I move that the minutes of meetings of committees and sub-committees in sofar as they require confirmation be confirmed by the council, Except with regard to any matters still under consideration. For upon which a committee proposes hereafter to report to the council.... All agreed. [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Appointment, agenda item eight, appointments in accordance no appointments, all agreed. Agenda item number nine, notice of motion, notice of motion by Mr, Mr. [Ryan:] Thank you Mr Chairman.... As you know it, this is the last... I'm sure everyone's aware it's the last item... on your agenda... when I was looking at the agenda... this item was before the fox hunting motion... I thought well... it'd be nice to have a debate before the fox hunting motion because we would have... er... a full house... of people who I'm sure would be very interested... to hear the discussion on V A T. As matter of fact I'm sure they would w w would welcome... the opportunity to have a de, a discussion, but it seems they have gone and I got, I got it wrong Chairman when you... by taking the the the fox hunting motion... it should really have, have held on till this time in the evening.... Er... I and the council will... recall the last time we had a motion on V A T... when we asked. [speaker001:] the last council. [Ryan:] The last council yes... and why not... and this council and we haven't heard the end of it yet, well I'll be coming to that bit... don't rush, don't rush me... [LAUGHTER]... We did ask the Secretary of State... not to impose V A T on fuel and light... because of the hardship it would impose... on the people and in particular... elderly... pensioners, sick and... invalids.... We wrote to the Secretary of State... after you passed that motion... so it appears from the correspondence we have back from the Secretary of State... that... they are bloody minded on this one... and they're going to, he's going to support, press on... with the imposition of V A T and... since that time we we see he's well supported by the cabinet.... Now the the motion's expressing concern over the government's intention.... when we got the letters back from the Secretary of State... one of his... excuses if you like, for imposing such a savage... tax... was that it was... save fuel... and help the environment.... Now there's no mention... of the human unhappiness... by the imposition of the V A T... and what this w w would, the concern... no concern whatsoever about this savage tax.... Now... when the Chancellor in the budget... said that he would... help the poor... he stopped short, there were no... copper bottomed... no copper bottom... guarantee... and then later on we had Michael Portillo... got in on the act.... Now Michael Portillo is one of the Tory high flyers, for anyone that don't know who he is, he's a Tory high flyer... who finds it very difficult... to look down, very difficult to look down on those... but he should look down before he makes a such statements.... Michael said there would be no special compensation... so you can imagine why we're concerned... and why we have this back on the... as a motion again. A motion to... monitor... the effects it will have on people that we are responsible for.... So really... it's only right that this council... should follow up on such a motion.... Because things are looking fairly bleak for pensions, disable etcetera.... Looking at the report and using the... present criteria... for increase in pensions... and these are the figures that... I didn't produce... but er... they look pretty bleak as I said because... what the pensions can expect next year... will be eighty four P for single pensioners and one twenty eight in that area for a couple... and then we had look at... we have some concern of what happened yesterday in a statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer who said he is going to... extend V A T... and also it has now been that instead of putting on half of it in nineteen ninety four... he put the full pile at seventeen and a half percent in nineteen ninety four because what was being saved... is that if he's... leave the other half to nineteen ninety five it'll be round near the elections and er there could be some difficulty.... I was hoping there would and I will still hope because there's not for the political reas, I would hope that... that the minister would not a U-turn, the Chancellor would do a U-turn on this one.... Because... I can, I'm surprised that the Tory party's. It'll haunt the Tory party... for years. It'll be a bigger bone than... a bigger bone than ever the poll tax was.... Now you say well why do a U-turn I see no reason why because... they done a few U-turns... on the child benefit... they done a U-turn, they picked it up and then blocked it. Charging pensioners and children for medical prescriptions... picked that one up and dropped it... like a hot potato... and charging for hospital treatment and why... so why not do a U-turn on on this one?... We must think Jim... of those people as I said that we are responsible for.... Our they'll want to forget... that the Tories... programme and policies, they lied about taxes... they promised... not to extend V A T... they lied about protecting the value of pensions... well I hope the people who get the eight four P and the one twenty, the one's that the old dears will remember that because that's what they will be getting.... That's what they will be getting... because I can tell this... to the Tories, let's be quite honest... that with the throw up... the the people... put their trust in the Tories... and I don't think they'll ever do it again.... I hope that we will, I will debate even in this late hour, it's not too late to... debate this... very important issue and let the people out there know that we are thinking of them, not just about the things that happened early on today but least... that we are responsible enough to dis to discuss... this motion... and to press and press and press again so... the government, hoping the government will do a U- turn, if you don't you'll be gone forever. Thank you Chairman, I move. [speaker002:] Have a seconder. [speaker001:] Seconded... seconded Mr Chairman, reserve me remarks thank you. [speaker002:] The serious item of news situ at the moment one day.... Mr. Mr Chairman er... when we discussed this last time... er I expressed the view that in fact er... the county council had better things to do... I've not changed my mind erm since but I have been reminded that er... when er... the... Roman Emperors er... found ascension in the... ranks... when Roman Emperors found ascension in the ranks... they... provided bread and circuses... and I have to say that I regard the two notices of motion which were placed in Mr... notably fox hunting and this debate on V A T as... bread and circuses.... It could be that er... he wishes to... distract attention between... the interesting arguments going on about one man one vote... which I'm pleased to hear that Mr has won. Well it is remarkable that it's taken until nineteen ninety two for the Labour party to discover that democracy consists in one man one vote... rather than somebody holding up... holding up a card saying one and a half million votes. And... and it is also... perhaps distracted er... attention... from the... interesting disagreements also taking place at the Labour party conference this week between the... one more pushes, if I might describe them... and the... hard liners who believe you've got to be radical. Just wait for it. So having said that I thought that there were more important issues for the council to discuss, I don't think it'd be fair to let this... second debate on the subject pass without actually making a few er er a very short erm... a few short remarks cos I think we need to be clear about the issues.... There is a need... to fund the deficit in public expenditure.... Even that nice Mr Gordon Brown... doesn't pretend... that... a deficit on the public... borrowing requirement greater than fifty million... is sensible. Indeed... that nice... it's interesting to note that that nice Mr Gordon Brown... has just rec Has just recently... withdrawn Labour's promise... to link pensions with average earnings. He recognises that there is a funding problem for public expenditure even if Labour members in this chamber don't... er and in case the erm... er... Liberal group is feeling sanctimonious. They should be aware that Mr beat Mr Brown to the punch and did exactly the same thing... a few months ago.... There is a serious question as to how reasonably... you should fund the deficit... and it is all very well to criticise... this suggestion as to how the a gap should filled without making any sensible suggestions of your own... and Mr Brown, nice Mr Brown so far has been singularly silent on the matter.... The second fact issued before us and it's one that I referred to er when we did it, debated this last time... is that if members... do take seriously the whole question of... Near time of reduction... of er emissions then in fact you have got to reduce the consumption of erm... hydrocarbons... er as interesting as the Liberal party has said for years but now er pretends it had nothing to do with... erm, er V A T on fuel. One final quick note Chairman, there is no point complaining... that there has not been a cop copper bottomed guarantee. You're on time at the copper bottom. Mr will find out whether or not there is a copper bottomed guarantee when the budget is announced and until then Time please until then Please Mr please. his criticisms are entirely er er surplus to requirements. Mr. I didn't mind waiting. Alright, well the rest did. We have nine speeches including yourself. [Avanby:] On a much more parochial level and I er I have an interest and I am one of these old age pensions that Mr is determined to look after.... Now the system at the moment seems to be... er suggested by the government that V A T should go up... and those that really need the money... will be if not wholly, mainly compensated, they will of course get another rise if the cost of living goes up because their pensions will go up. Mr is very different... we must all be protected, I've worked out my bill as the same as this year because no way shall I spend seventeen and a half percent more money... I shall be as careful as I can and I shan't starve and I shan't get cold... now I've worked out that the V A T on my fuel bill... is eight hundred and eighty five pounds, I'd delighted if Mr could perform the trick and I needn't pay it, on behalf of the Duke of Westminster, the Duke of Rutland, I think I can also thank him. This is not er... protecting that, no old age pensioner should pay these taxes... they should pay the taxes unless they're in need and be adequately taken care of.... I must remind you that in Europe... that marvellous place with the social contract, hasn't prevented... everyone paying tax on on fuel. I think in Denmark it's twenty percent.... Somehow we are different.... I don't know why we're different except that someone wants to makes some trouble. If we come into line with Europe,le Europe will soon be putting pressure on us... by having a common policy and the policy to save fossil... er burning of fossil fuels is international.... The Liberals said it must be done and done quickly... the Liberals said it must be done and done quickly, get extra tax on the fossil fuels for the sake of the environment.... If you remember... you did say that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Avanby:] Er it's perf altered a little now because it's not very popular but that's what you've said. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Avanby:] And I'm sure you've had a bit of thought about it, I'm glad you're see it there... er and the whole lot is a blessed mismatch, it's nothing to do with us though I do thank you Mr for the help you wish to give me, the Duke of Westminster and the Duke of Rutland if this goes through as I said this today because without a doubt the government will listen to what you have to say and I've no doubt it will be effect. [speaker002:] Mr [Roberts:] Thank you Mr Chairman. There is a sense of er deja vu about all of this isn't there. One seems to have heard it all and I'm sure you've heard before that I've, I've to say. Er, I wondered about this erm... this Tory high flyer, about whom er, my friend over there speaks with such admiration and envy, he must have a tremendous influence... because I wonder, had he been the mover behind... the fact that... this V A T on fuel is is there in every other country in Europe including Ireland... where it's about eleven percent. So this Tory high flyer must be a very high flyer indeed. The truth of the matter is this of course, that Mr might just as well put here any indirect tax, because that's what it's about. In one sense all indirect taxation is hardly equitable because it falls on the rich and the poor, like the old saying the rain, it raineth every day upon the rich and just and unjust fellow. But more upon the just because the unjust have the just's umbrella... but er this happens all the time. So there's no budget in picking out the f fuel for it. You might just as well pick out anything... but having done it and taking up, er what Mr mentioned, this question I think it was Mr, about the deficit.... There is a way of course, a classic way in which deficits trad can be... absorbed. You do it by having very high inflation.... That's all is easy, it swallows up an inflation and in fact all those many years ago when there was a... a socialist government... seems a long since, like a bad dream now doesn't it, but when there was a socialist government, they did just this. They have high inflation, I might add to you that it had a far far more... damaging effect on poor old pensioners, like myself and I'm a war pensioner as well, poor old pensioners t to be serious, old people and... people of limited means who are affected far more... by the cure, the other cure that the Labour party tried that... that was high inflation, mind you I'm sure that they tried it, I think it just happened. It does with Labour parties [speaker002:] Thank you [Roberts:] Thank you very much, er I can't... carry along because you want to stop me, but if I were capable of telling, I'd say... my attitude is still the same as it was before. [speaker002:] I'm glad you didn't mention the bank manager's umbrella. Mr... Mr [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] Than thank you Chair. Very quickly in, what, what can I say, I mean it's an appalling situation... where you have a political party that believes that it can solve all the ills of these the country that it has created in the last twelve years, I hope on the explicit though I tend to think renunciations are fairly clear here, but erm I hope you'll listen.... That, that they have create these ills in the last decade through this, this increase in indirect taxation. Be... bec, the appalling thing is... that they're quite, they're quite happy to spread this pain on those who are in the least position to burden it... and they believe quite rightly and this, this is the I think, that exists between socialism and... and and the Conservatism in that sense that... whereas... erm, you know opinion surveys bear out the fact that people are quite happy, those who can afford it... to pay a little bit extra in terms of direct taxation for those service provisions, which are absolutely... vital and these surveys have been conducted in public and they have been made quite er er open to the press, er, just before the last election... particularly for the health authority... and so forth. But I mean these, these surveys have indicated that the general public is quite prepared to give that little bit extra through direct t, through direct taxation, well listen, you you guys can't speak much after all there's only thirty one of you and there's thirty seven of us here let's face it. Er, but the interesting, the interesting thing is that they are prepared to pay and yet this obsession... this obsession with this ideology that the only way you can get... you can go forward in in terms of er... placing this this country in any economic status in the way it may have been and er... is is to privatisation of V A T. Chairman I look forward to the day when... when the very air and this has been said for that we breathe... will either be privatised or more important they'll stick a bloody V A T on it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ryan:] But it, isn't it an awful situation... when you, when you, when you look at it... that evidence indicates that the erm... the number of people that are either now elderly... infirm or sick... and [clears throat] and clearly that they all will have to face this, this, this terrible burden... and I cannot understand because there is, this, there is, there is er a total disarray within the Conservative party, that all their er er back bench er MP s are... making representations to their... erm... their leader who possibly may not be a leader tomorrow but as long as he's the leader today, John Major... that he should do a rethink... and here they are... er... you know, members of the same party, continuing to support... something which is so... idiosyncratic that... you know it's really beyond belief, er Chairman. [speaker001:] Not idiosyncratic. [Ryan:] I think, well, clearly those people... those people who have... er... those who have some notion of decency... and particularly... even taking into account the mixed economy that we need to work in... will... support... er the notion that those people who cannot burden this... kind of tax... should not have to... er er should not have to partake. In actual fact it was mentioned earlier that V A T er could be imposed on fossil fuel but I think any administration.... could clearly... make some kind of differentiation between a conglomerate... paying V A T or some such tax whereas er the exception could be made to those people who are not clearly in a position to make er er to say that. Ch Chairman I hope that the motion will get full support. [speaker002:] Thank you. Er is there a in the house? I, here he is. [Clements:] Mr Chairman... ladies and gentlemen, how's that. I wanted to say a word, I know you don't want me to. [speaker001:] . Thank you, yes they should be... but stand up and I'm only trying to help in the situation. [Clements:] Mr you'll spoi you'll spoil us... when I saw this tonight I thought we I gotta say something because Martin is coming up with the... er same motion as it was last time, it was not much different so... probably with the same reply's gotta be made and that is that... the Labour party is not the caring party, everyone here, I'm sure the Liberals as well as the Conservatives care... we are a caring party as much as you are... and we are concerned, we are concerned about, we are concerned about [Ryan:] the old people and the people that are, are living on low incomes.... I am an old age pensioner, you wouldn't believe that would you? I've struggled I know what it's like... to struggle to pay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] here, here. [Ryan:] Thank you. You may think I'm joking... I don't go abroad for my holidays, I go to Norfolk. I can't afford to go on foreign holidays. Anyway, the point is this... that I am going to say as far as I'm concerned I'm gonna put all my maximum ability in making sure that this government stands by its obligation which it gave me... when I wrote to the Prime Minister because I was very very concerned that I did not want to see the old people and pensioners who was having difficulty in making ends meet, suffer further... and therefore I am with you when it comes to concerning yourself in relation to the O A P's or the pensioners or any one who is suffering because of the s seventeen and o half percent, the maximum is put on. So, I am looking after their interests. I don't need the Chief Executive to tell me what's happening because I'm going to be... involved in seeing what's happening and as far as the Labour people talking about the cost... it's going to create.... You never said that when you were creating the cost, the cost of living which was inflation was soaring up to thirty percent, twice as much as what this bloody V A T will introduce. You were condemned of people then... you couldn't care a damn about it cos you couldn't do anything about it because your methods of running a country was a waste of time.... Er, so as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure as far as you're concerned, we are battling this together. We maybe on different sides, but we want to make sure that the O A P s and the people that do have to er... er present th... pay these bills, I mean if you consider... if you think of... Calor, Calor Gas, Calor Gas, the way that I actually heat my I pay V A T on that, Calor Gas is is is V A T ed Now, as far as... Conservatives are concerned, I speak myself and I'm sure everyone here would offer the same sympathy as the... the government has promised that they will do something about this. I promise that I will look into it and can I, can report back to you if you wish me to when it comes out. [speaker002:] Doctor [Clements:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. It's qu, it's quite. [speaker002:] Can we just quieten down a bit please. Thank you. [Clements:] It's quite interesting that er... two members of the Conservative party have referred to these very high rates of inflation... er that happened under a Labour government er because... they, the, the reason they occurred... primarily, if you remember is because in nineteen seventy two... oil, oil was three dollars a barrel. In nineteen seventy three it went up to fifteen dollars a barrel and in nineteen seventy nine it went up to thirty dollars a barrel. Now that was.

[Derek:] all Executive Directors of the Company together we'll answer any questions at the end of this short presentation. First the figures, furniture retailing continues to be highly competitive so I am pleased to report that turnover for the twenty eight weeks was through to the twenty million five point five percent better than the same period in the previous year. Operating profit for the period was twenty seven point four million compared with a pro-forma level of nineteen point four million last year an increase of forty one per cent. Profit before tax which includes nineteen point six million pounds worth of profit from the sale of the Group's investment in Carpet Right was forty four point one compared to a loss of twelve million for the same period last year. An extra share of five P of which two point two P relates to the exceptional period on the sale of Carpet Right shares giving interest net earnings per share of two point eight P. In a few moments I'd like to tell you briefly about the trading background to the figures and to give you an indication of how business has been since the period ended and particularly since our important sale started on Boxing Day. But first I'll ask our Finance Director to go into the figures in a little bit more detail.... [John:] Thank you good morning ladies and gentlemen,... turnover grew by five point five per cent during the twenty eight weeks the sixth of November to three hundred and twenty million there's been no inflation in our selling prices so all of this growth is from increased volumes particularly in upholstery, beds, appliances and Pronto. Although the total retail trading area is unchanged at the period end there are in fact two different underlying elements new footage has been laid down in France but this has been off set by a net reduction in the retail trading area in the U K.... The sales per square foot which excludes retail sales and is based on the waiting average trading area shows an increase of seven point two percent... A low margin of fifty five point six per cent was down from fifty eight point five per cent in the same period last this, this was mainly due to a drop in in-house manufacturing participation and adverse exchange rates. Gross margin was as we expected broadly level with the second half of last year.... The reduction and payroll costs of five million or six point eight per cent reflects the staff reductions which took place last year... These are efficiency gains primarily in areas of management and distribution. As a result of tight every-day control costs other operating charges at seventy eight point seven million have fallen as the percentage of sales by point nine per cent to twenty four point six per cent and depreciation in the period has fallen by two point three million to eight point four million.... Our sub-leasing of of surplus retail area has continued in the period and combined with a small programme of retail park developments will enable our retail area grow, sorry will enable our rental income to grow. Indeed rental income will be in excess of nine million pounds for the full year compared to seven million pounds for last year. Combined effects of these initiatives has resulted in operating profits rising to twenty seven point four million compared with the pro forma level of nineteen point four million last year, which is an increase of forty one per cent. Our net operating margins have risen from six point four per cent to eight point six per cent. There is a net interest charge in the period of three million which is a decrease of two point four million on the same period last year. This reflect the cash from the sale of the Group's investment in Carpet Right together with low interest rates. The profit on ordinary activities with more taxation was forty four point one million compared to a loss last year of twelve million but of course these two figures are not comparable. This year's number includes nineteen point six million profit on the sale of Carpet Right and last year's number includes twenty four point seven million flotation and buy-out costs. A more appropriate comparison is the profit before tax this year of twenty four point five million compared to a profit before tax last year of twelve point seven million an increase of ninety three per cent. The forecast tax charge for the year is thirty four per cent which is below last year's rate of thirty five and we expect this low rate to continue in the future. Earnings per share in the period were five p but after taking into account exceptional Carpet Right gain this is reduced to two point eight p and compares to last year's pro forma earnings per share of one point four million which included losses on the closing down of our operations. The cash position at the period end showed net borrowings of thirty nine point seven million which compares to eight two point seven million at the same time twelve months ago. has fallen over this period from seventy eight per cent to twenty eight per cent.... During the period net borrowings have fallen by twenty one point eight million principally due to the twenty one point four million proceeds from Carpet Right. M F I traditionally has a stronger second half cash flow and net borrowings are expected to fall further in the second half of the year. Two other key elements were within our cash flow. First, stock levels were increased by nine point three million in preparation for our important winter sale. Secondly we utilised available A C T capacity in the group to obtain an early recovery of eleven and a half million of A C T and this would not normally have been recovered until January nineteen ninety five.... Capital expenditure for the period was fourteen point six million and is likely to be twenty five million for the year. Although similar to last year's level of twenty three million you remember that last year's number included the purchase of four freehold properties for nine million pounds. You also know that on page nine of our interest statement we have created a non-distributable special reserve against which we are writing off our good-will reserve. This has created a capital structure more suitable for a listed company. Thank you for your attention I would now like to hand you back to [Derek:] ... Thanks and I'll just outline the background to the figures that has just presented to you. During the period new kitchen carcasses, stores worktops and the sinks all manufactured by Hygena were introduced into all out stores along with a number of improvements to our bedroom ranges. This will was completed in time for the sale period which began on Boxing Day. We opened a new store in Christ Christchurch and rebuilt our North Shields site replacing the M F I store with a completely new one. Two more stores will open in Cardiff and Yeovil at the end of next month bringing the total number of U K stores to one hundred and seventy eight. These two stores will trade under the name of Homeworks and will operate as a testing ground for M F I's mainstream business. They've been developed after considerable consumer research and will evaluate new products and new service ideas which if found acceptable will be taken up by the M F I chain. We've continued our programme of improvements to the M F I store design layout and presentation. Seven more stores have been completely refitted and a further eighty four thousand square feet of surplus space has been sub-leased to other retailers increasing our rental income by another half a million pounds. A new generation of a sell system has been successfully introduced into all our stores which integrates which integrates more closely the retailing distribution and manufacturing systems and raises the level of management information and control. Our new customer tracking system is giving us detailed information on customer tracking flows and purchasing bands and as a result we're refining staff working arrangements in all stores with a clear objective of increasing sales and improving customer service. These two important operational developments are now allowing our staff to make more productive use of their time enabling them to concentrate more effectively on serving customers and selling products. I am delighted to announce that we will soon manufacturing ovens at our Hygena factory in Stockton extending the range of products manufactured in-house follows on naturally as M F I's position as the leading ah retailer of built-in kitchen appliances. These new appliances will replace products imported from Europe and will retailed in our stores from Spring nineteen ninety five. Finally, I have to report that sales in France have increased by thirty per cent with like for like performance of six per cent on the same period last year. We now trade from forty eight locations in France with three more stores due to open in the second half of the financial year. To ensure that everybody's kept informed of our performance at regular intervals throughout the year we will in future announce our interim results in December, make a statement in February on the Winter sale performance announce final results in early July and give another trading statement at our A G M in September. Today today we're declaring an interim dividend of one point three three per share... er compared with the same period this year er sorry let me start that again. Today we're declaring an interim dividend of one point three three per share compared with one point two five for the same period last year. This decision takes into account the need to rebuild dividend cover whilst ensuring that higher earnings are reflected in increased income to share holders, just excuse me one minute... [LAUGHTER] Current trading. Trading in the second has shown a clear improvement and since Boxing Day sales of fourteen per cent ahead of the previous year. In particular sales of kitchens and bedrooms have shown considerable increases and whilst we're pleased with the response to our new products we remain cautious on the outlook for consumer expenditure. Now ladies and gentlemen if you have any questions we'll be happy to answer them for you... Can you just wait for the microphone because the guys at the back can't hear the question [speaker003:] right, erm Could you, you said that your payroll costs had come down by five million that's figure is it? [Derek:] yeah erm [speaker004:] sorry [Derek:] Have you got the figures there? [John:] Yeah, the payroll costs for the first half of last year were seventy three point eight million the payroll costs for the first half of the review were sixty eight point eight [speaker003:] right so it's for the half year sorry, beg your pardon five million half year [Derek:] that's correct yes [speaker003:] Fine okay and how many employees do you now have [John:] six thousand [Derek:] six thousand seven the average number is a six thousand seven hundred and seventy four it's actually erm financial highlights and I'll just check give you the exact figure six seven seven four [speaker003:] right that's a headcount that's not [Derek:] it is for equipment [speaker003:] that's equipment right, and how's that compared with the previous period last year [Derek:] well the year we had seven thousand five hundred and seventy nine [speaker003:] sorry could you repeat that again please [Derek:] seven thousand five hundred and seventy nine and at the same period last year which is November nineteen ninety two we have seven thousand eight hundred and forty three [speaker003:] right erm could I just check something else which was not mentioned er is that is it when you have opened these two Homeworks shops that you'll be up to a hundred and seventy eight [Derek:] yes that's [speaker003:] and I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about these Homework how they fit the M F I the plan of shopping [Derek:] well the reason that we've changed the name on those two stores is that any experiments we want to conduct have got to be conducted outside the normal M F I promotional platform and as we use the national press extensively the only way to do that is to change the name. We had a long series of various pieces of research, one of which was actually talk to enormous amount of customers through customer and as a consequence of that we've we decided to form a fairly business to produce a very different pair of stores, different in that they won't trade in the traditional way that M F Is gone ah they'll carry different merchandise, different price lines. Now what it is actually is a idea that part of our research and development actually engages the customer so that in the stores it's very difficult to experiment in say half a dozen when the national press is out there every week making an offer that you don't carry by definition like that [speaker003:] So what bits are more up market more down market [Derek:] what would you say about that [speaker005:] What we're actually doing in terms of the product is we're actually widening the franchise erm I don't like to use words going up market that suggests that we're leaving our core customers behind, we will we will add any product that is complimentary to our core kitchens but er we'll still be the main stance of the product in these two stores for instance, we're going to introduce a house wear department it is something that we've been experimenting with before we're going to erm use the opportunity to widen the franchise on appliances we're going to erm use the an experiment on erm floorings to match work tops, those kind of developments just to test to see whether the customer reaction is as good as we hoped it would be so that we can then introduce it in the main chain [speaker003:] Do they have to be a lot bigger these stores [Derek:] No they're just two standard stores, one's twenty five thousand square feet in Yeovil which as you will be aware is a market town with a fairly wide catchment area and in Cardiff which where we're opposite Marks and Spencers on an out-of-town development so they're just two stores virtually picked because they were ready to open [speaker003:] right, my final question have you talked to erm Do It All about buying in in their outfit? [Derek:] We've certainly talked to Do It All ha ha erm yes that's definite yes [speaker003:] thank you... [speaker006:] Can you tell us a bit more about this [speaker007:] Well it's a both a fortunate and unfortunate circumstance as a result of the by-out a sorry [cough] as a result of the floatation we cut a great many costs which reduced our taxable profits but at the same time we did actually pay some divides and we've also pay some dividends here in last year anyway. The complication has been that because last year's trading profits were lower than expected we didn't have any taxable profits against which to claim back this A C T so as this would be the first year in which taxable profits would arise unless we'd not been unless we'd been able to find some other way of dealing with it the A C T which we pay would not have been recoverable till January ninety five. What we have done is we have erm been able to utilise some A C T capacity or generate some A C T capacity within one of the subsidiaries within the group um the reason for highlighting it highlighting it is not particularly to make a song and dance about it but is particularly to say that on the cash flow statement there is this in-flood and it is a one off in-flood we're not going to be seeing that being brought forward every year, but basically what it is is we have profits in previous elements of the group which enabled us to generate A C T capacity enabled us to off set this A C T which we paid on dividends and bringing forward earlier than we would otherwise have done. [speaker006:] oh right [speaker007:] Conversely had we had the profits last year which would have generated taxable profits then we wouldn't have needed to have done that, so that's one reason why it was not disclosed on floatations at the time and floatation was not regarded as an asset. It's not an asset unless you can use it. [speaker006:] Right if you can show us erm a main stream corporation last year [speaker007:] yes, but not again not one which we're not able to off set this particular payment... [speaker006:] I'm not sure you've made it any clearer than it was before but erm [Derek:] well don't look at me I can't help ya [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] how do you feel about the erm deal and a [Derek:] I think a I think that a regional high street outlet will provide a threat to us certainly and it's not clear yet which way they're gonna try that business, but yes we are working at it very hard... [speaker008:] If the erm Homeworks experiment is successful could we see many more stores turning over to that that format and that that or will you consider converting the whole chain or might you just have a separate chain called Homesworks? [Derek:] No I don't think either erm... The whole emphasis of Homeworks is to learn things there which we can then bolt on to the main chain, I'll be absolutely amazed if in fact Homeworks manages to drive anywhere near the amount of customers through it that M F I does or the problem we had in Yeovil is because it is a very rural area a is not having the M F I name above the door so no that is not the intention. I do believe, however, we'll learn things from it that we can quickly adapt and put into the hundred and seventy six M F I stores.... [speaker009:] How big sales in France and how big are the sales in France and how do margins compare with the U K [Derek:] Well the total sales in France for this year will be around twenty five million pounds [speaker009:] for the whole year? [Derek:] for the whole year so it's a very small business the stores [cough] are much smaller than they are in the U K erm as regards your last point about margins the margins are erm at least equal to the margins that we achieve in the U K [speaker004:] Is that? Oh sorry erm we are expect the business this year to break even it broke even last year, erm and the reason for that is that we have expanded business very rapidly, last year we had only thirty five stores this year we'll have fifty and we will probably have a similar sort of expansion programme for next year. The cost of that level of expansion ah were largely written off against revenue or a large part of against revenue with the effect that reduces the business to break even.... What what proportion of the fourteen per cent sales rise since ah Christmas relates directly to to mark downs in that period after Boxing Day when you re- opened? None in the conventional sense that I take it that you mean mark down you mean clearing merchandise yeah yes, discounting merchandise is something we do all the time it's just that the discounts are different in January and the merchandise to which they're applied may be different. We don't have a in our business as many other retailers do where for instance after Christmas may be and other such things to clear we don't have that, so there isn't any merchandise that's been sold since Christmas that has been sold because we don't want it to be in the inventory post year end it's it's just generating trade by being discount price left so therefore to a certain amount your question would be has the post Christmas and it was pre Christmas no material difference we're very satisfied with the gross margins since Christmas we haven't had to take any extraordinary measures to generate this erm this level of sales increase that's being achieved at constant margin a flat margin [Derek:] I think the ah just to remind you what we have always said is that that would improve our gross margin situation would be a change in in house manufacturing goods and whilst it's a bit early to tell we are actually saying to you that the sales post Boxing Day have been in addition [speaker004:] What proportion of is now made in house? [Derek:] It's more than sixty per cent and eight five per cent is made in the U K just about almost... [speaker004:] as a matter of interest that's actually would be higher than any other retailer in Britain actually that's not commonly known no other retailer who has a penetration of whatever he sells as high as M F I does... Could you just repeat the figures for capital expenditure I think you said that this year was going to be higher than last year and explain explain where the money gonna be invested [John:] Well this year's capital expenditure will be around twenty five million and last year's figure was twenty three million the point I was making in the speech was that twenty three million included nine million pounds for the, we must have some static in our nine million pounds for the purchase of freeholds, erm but the capital expenditure this year is spread right across the operation includes introduction of erm re-fits in a number of stores includes expansion in France, investment in systems and hardware and indeed also includes ah about five million pounds for a retail park development which I also referred to... the park development on which we have an interest in the sense that we are developing an M F I store.... and of course if you want to include a small element this year a greater element would be for the new open plan.... [speaker004:] Just a couple of detail points erm why have you seen a fall in your depreciation charge and an increase in? [John:] Right I'll deal with with depreciation. Depreciation's been falling now for two or three years as our capital expenditure of depreciable assets has been falling indeed if you look at last year's net of the nine million pounds purchase of the freehold to fourteen million the year before was only sixteen million erm so as the as the depreciation as the capital expenditure falls the depreciation will also fall that's one reason. The other reason was in the late eighties and early nineties we had a very large expenditure programme indeed in one year amounting to one hundred million pounds now of that are now becoming fully depreciated and falling out of the charge [speaker004:] what ah capital expenditure on non depreciable assets [John:] erm, freehold parks, as I said last year we bought nine million pounds worth of freehold now [speaker004:] tended to depreciate with all this [John:] not freehold land freehold buildings we've been depreciating now for many many years.... so you know we've actually been doing that is not new as far as we're concerned [speaker004:] okay [John:] no particular reason for the rise its general movements and not a serious movement as far as we're concerned includes the whole element of debtors from ourselves to our wholesale debtors which is our own manufacturing operation where they're selling to outside customers there's nothing particularly significant in that.... [speaker004:] How many re-fitted stores have you got now then how many are you planning to re-fit over the next year? We've got in the new format sixty of the new new format but what we have been able to do is take elements of the new re-fitted stores and put those for instance erm Pronto we've managed to take those and re-fit them separately but the actual new concept stores sits at about sixty-odd stores and currently what we're doing is to check the that we have had a a re-fits this year erm where we've taken space for other sub-lets where put the new concept back to but as far as the go in majority of the chain now we have most of the major elements i.e an upholstery area bed area Pronto representation and indeed the re-fit that was discussed in the Chairman's statement the kitchen and bedroom re-fit erm was applicable to all stores so all of the stores have got new kitchens and bedrooms in So no further re-fitting will substantially [Derek:] yeah, erm I would take a guess that there will be because we still have ambitions to shed a load of space so it would be advisable to re-fit to release further space we have another twenty six smaller stores that we haven't done at all yet other than put a so yes we'll have an on-going re-fit programme I can't give you the exact details because erm how many it's gonna be but there will be certainly an on-going re-fit programme.... [speaker004:] What is Pronto's inflation [John:] Pronto is erm an area of the store where we sell our occasional furniture and erm small priced coffee tables, hi-fi units the occasional furniture that may go erm whereas up until a couple of years ago we use to display this product around the showroom floor part of the new concept stores was that we actually [cough] set the same section in the showroom which is very much like a a shelving system whereby the stock actually sits on the shelves, the customer walks in and it's an easy easy purchase straight off the trolley erm very much like the supermarket operation so it's the lower priced good value occasional type furniture the cash and carry the kind of things that you don't need sales assistants for the kind of bookcase that you would put in your children's bedroom that kind of thing. [speaker004:] As part of the what the stores back in the mid eighties were more expensive suites and so too conflicting we had a fifty or twenty five pound coffee table we sold the two greater mixture so its a methodology of just an ordinary table for exactly without conflict.... What were these what was the sales area of the how much sales area did you actually release in the first half and how much do you expect to go in the second? I'll give you the answer to that one just bear with me a moment please I'll try to be precise.... right the erm trading area the closing trading area at the end of the November ninety three was six thousand and forty sorry six million [cough] forty thousand square feet at the previous year in April ninety three it was six million and thirty six thousand square feet... that includes France does it? That includes France which has seen an increase in footage of a thirty thousand square feet... and we've also got a number of sub-lets we've indicated that erm sub-lets should pay reduces it do these figures include or exclude that sub-let they include the sub-let space and where we sub-let space we deduct that space from the trading area figure right has it still gone up? yeah, because we've opened stores in France and we've also a new store in the U K there's pluses and minuses there's pluses in France pluses in the U K with one new store erm and minuses with the sub-lets... sorry just remind us what proportion is is a flat pack represents of your total sales unclear fifteen something low eighty per cent obviously varies low eighty low eighty, low eighty it various from season to season as upholstery is more popular or less popular as beds are more popular at the the other question, how seriously do you view the likely impact of the new the budget er change come coming into force in the spring on purchases of consumer durables such as yours bearing in mind your and your customer profile? [John:] Yeah I mean we did insert actually in the Chairman's statement a cautionary note about the credit announcement because two years ago we had a similar increase which in fact by the time we got to the end of the year had disappeared so we view it with a lot of caution is the answer if you ask me to be more precise I can't because we've never really had a set of tax increases the like of which we face now... any other questions? In fact we oh sorry yes [speaker004:] erm sub-lets erm, on the sub-lets a big package deals with any other retailers and what would be the biggest [John:] Oh the erm if there is a sort of major beneficiary that Carpet Right because of course we owned the in them fairly decent straight throughout Currys, Dixons and some of the market people Quicksave erm, the sort of spread you'd expect on any retail park you know. I think that part of our business makes it more difficult because ah the purchase of Allied Carpets by Carpetland is the space of the market at a fairly speedy rate and I personally believe other retailers will have the policy to sub-let surface areas in the next few years so it's something we got on with three years ago and very pleased we did it.... Thank you very much for your attention gentlemen

[Wendy:] Er... there you go. okay. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] Where do we switch it off if we want to switch it off? [Wendy:] Erm you just press the press the stop button. They're [Emmy:] Okay. [Wendy:] all labelled and then press the red button again to get it going. [Emmy:] Okay fine [LAUGHTER] just for sake because she's going to write the erm minutes from that tape. Apologies, er Virginia and Jess. And so here this rural craft er thing which I wrote for which you asked me which is arriving from the last minutes, is I'll read it out to you. [reading] All work on display must be British of origin. We appreciate that raw materials may be foreign but it must not exceed thirty five percent of the finished product. This rule is being rigorously enforced this year. Work outside these limits must be removed. [] And they say you have to send in some of your product and then they come round to your stand and if it doesn't comply they just take it off your stand which is our whole merchandise really. [speaker002:] Mm. [Emmy:] So I think this is a great shame. Yes. Right well I'm coming back to this subject later on when we talk about er marketing. Right, that's matters arising from the last minutes, any other matters arising from the last minutes? [speaker005:] Yeah well there's one one point on the letter received from the Charity Commission. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker005:] Can you send them [Emmy:] Yes well when you weren't here last time, [speaker005:] Mm. [Emmy:] we have had a letter back and it's exactly the same as I got when I rang them up, if they just say it must not exceed a certain amount and they won't be tied down to tell me. There is a letter here. They won't they they they just said, if it exceeds a certain margin, we recommend that you establish another trading company. And they won't tell you what the safe margin is, they just don't. [speaker005:] Mm copy next meeting that's all. [Emmy:] Yes well who has got the copy, has Jess got it then? [speaker005:] I don't know it's just [Emmy:] I think we sent the copy to Jess and Jess I think has the copy. Yes and yeah we'll have to give you that copy. Can we make a note of that Jess, that erm we will need [speaker005:] Well it's already in the minutes. [Emmy:] a copy. [speaker005:] It's in the minutes last time. [Emmy:] Yes last time we talked about it. [speaker005:] Oh I see. [Emmy:] But I don't think we have the copy here did we, we didn't see the letter. No. [speaker005:] Sorry I [Emmy:] So I think [speaker005:] I think what I'm trying to say is, in the minutes that we produced for the last meeting, it says that a copy of it will be available for the next meeting [Emmy:] Right. [speaker005:] that is today. [Emmy:] Yeah. Which Jessica isn't here today. [speaker005:] Ah I see, so that's [Emmy:] And she might have, she may well be [speaker004:] was going to bring them today. [Emmy:] Because she only rang up very shortly before the meeting saying that she couldn't come. It's er er somebody on business is visiting and they the wife has come and she has to entertain the wife. Er something she didn't expect and that's why she couldn't come. So er that has to just wait now until the next meeting. Any other things?... No, shall I go onto the manager's report then? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Emmy:] Which they know all about. Erm... the sixth of the twelve we had Radio York here and actually it was very nice because they just introduce our people here, you know the craft workers and th you've heard the tape. [speaker002:] Mm. [Emmy:] And they spoke for themselves and I think they promoted us well. And [LAUGHTER] they also [] three times that day, very early in the morning, at nine o'clock and at lunch time, and always just between the weather forecast and the news I mean when people are switching on. [speaker002:] Mm. [Emmy:] Or is it the road conditions or something but peak times. [speaker004:] I heard it certainly I heard it just going on in the car. [Emmy:] And people have heard it which I think helps us in the long run. But the business we got from it won't be big, one lady rang up and said I heard about you on Radio York. Can I come and buy one cracker. I said, of course you can. And when she came she actually bought three. And that's the only customer after all that so I mean [speaker002:] Mm. [Emmy:] No easy answer. Then Des and I went to the wine selling party at and at you know made great a great effort and we did very well. Sold quite a few boxes of crackers there too. Did very well there, getting on for five hundred pounds. But everything is harder you know, everything is harder. It's not er you have to push for it now. Eleventh of the twelfth, Conservative Party Fair, well that one wasn't much good at all. You know they were sort of they were cheap stalls and and the people who came were the bargain hunters. Or some people like the s and you know who knew us and had bought already from us. Erm I think I sold twenty crackers. Lots of gifts. the rest was all gifts. Erm then on the seventeenth erm we had our part at my house, it was very enjoyable as always, but to be honest I almost collapsed, I really had had it by then. And er Mark 's sister and her partner, they are professional musicians and they do sort of Irish er Irish music. And they entertained us and then some carol singers came and we asked them in and they sang carols and the food was nice and everybody really was very happy and that was the start of our Christmas holiday. And then I came back on the forth to start off with the stocktaking which is not on the agenda I think. But let me just tell you we it's all counted, it's all written down. one thing Pat, I still need to know erm what stock we started all the selling. You will know what you made before the Christmas Fair. [speaker006:] Mm. [Emmy:] Yeah that's a figure I need to know. [speaker006:] Okay. [Emmy:] But otherwise everything's written down and we have bought the e of the computer but Wendy is familiarizing herself with it and it's quite hard work. Erm and it'll take us a little bit of touch actually now the computer evaluated.... Oh yes er er yes and or well I came back and organized the workshop you know did the displays and things like that. And tidied up. And then Wendy came back on the Wednesday, the day after It's just a meeting R [speaker002:] Er excuse me please, can I have the car keys? [speaker006:] You moving your blue car No [Emmy:] No he will take the er the other one [speaker006:] The one in the way. [Emmy:] So Wendy came on the Wednesday and we got going with all the office work here. Er mainly the proposal and then everybody came back on the sixth which is quite a long break in Christmas but we do need that break till we organize ourselves after Christmas [speaker005:] Yes I know [Emmy:] I mean things like unpacking the boxes and taking it all out of the erm cracker er paper or all that, you know just takes time. And then we went to the er Pat and I went to the toy fair in Harrogate and one little thing has already come. We found a very nice you know we once had this push up horse, we now found a push up doll which is sort of quite nicely coloured and this little spinning top which I think is quite nice. We were going to buy something else but you couldn't do it so I think this is going to be very nice. I mean I feel quite hopeful about our gifts, it's always a big problem but I think we'll be all right. Erm then er I introduced somebody on the seventeenth for this teaching post, for the sewing club which Noel unofficially told me and Donald also rang up and said that we were going to get the money so I I've already employed somebody, I haven't got the letter yet. But erm I've I've told them, I haven't got the letter but it it should be coming. [speaker005:] Have you got the money though? [Emmy:] I know. [LAUGHTER] But super super person we've got, unfortunately she might be offered a job at prison to take their sewing on and then she can't do ours. But she's setting it up and she will find us somebody to carry on. And I'm really excited about it and there's lots of interest, I think this places are taken up already. It's going to be six people. Erm then for of our administration well Celia really you should report Well you are saying it later on in your report aren't you about the administration skills course? [speaker004:] Mhm. Well well I can say it now really four have taken the R S A one exam, and and did very well though very nervous but er er and but they sat there and they did it which was superb I mean we were as nervous as they were sitting in here. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker004:] Erm but we won't get the results till mid March which is a shame. [Emmy:] But we think that possibly three passed and maybe and one failed. [speaker004:] But we don't know. Shirley [Emmy:] We don't know but somebody had a look at it, Shirley, the teacher. Er but they did so much better I mean you know nerves really got a bit the better of them didn't it [speaker004:] Well that's it's all about exams isn't it [Emmy:] Oh yes I mean Then er we had the Christmas Fair meeting of which maybe you want to look at the minutes now. And the minutes were taken by one of the Admin students and it was typed [speaker004:] No there. [Emmy:] It's part it's part of your pack Desmond, I gave you papers and you should have in it erm [speaker005:] Oh yes. I've got it I've got it [Emmy:] and again, just look at the work you know. [speaker005:] Can I make a point please? [Emmy:] Yeah. [speaker005:] I think you should have a tw a twelfth clause on it, appoint a treasurer for the event. And have somebody who deals with all the income, all the banking and all the payments out. So you've got the all the cash being handled by one person rather than being bonded together and any other situation where we get [Emmy:] Y y y you mean on the minutes? [speaker005:] Actually on this. In other words [Emmy:] Yes so we'll have that as a point. [speaker005:] As a point. I think you need somebody there [Emmy:] I I I [speaker005:] to deal with it totally. [Emmy:] Yes. Can you after the meeting dictate that point to Celia please. Erm [speaker005:] Yeah I'll just put it in. Appoint treasurer for the event. All aspects. [Emmy:] Yeah. Mhm. Could you write that down Celia just underneath [speaker005:] Detail all receipts and banking. [Emmy:] your that we've put that in as a recommendation. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Payment of expenses and provision of floats. [Emmy:] Yes yes. I agree with you. It was done by too many people. I agree with you wholeheartedly as I really always do yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Can I have a talk to you afterwards? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] Future events, erm this Saturday, a wedding service for Jim or the Sunday, Jim. And a wedding for that's Pat's cousin. [speaker006:] Mm. Thank you. [Emmy:] And er I haven't actually rung her yet to confirm that. So that's the manager's report. Then marketing and advertising. Well we've just heard we were had decided to go to the Harrogate Fair which we can't because our product isn't British enough. Erm it will I think leave a bit of a gap. Now I have decided and I hope you'll back that up to reduce our cracker production. Erm by a bit because we have now moved, the Monday morning we are going to have the sewing and the people from the Monday morning, we have put onto the the three other days when we make crackers. The people who make crackers on a Monday morning, we have moved to the other three days so that the Monday morning is free for the sewing. The teacher can only only come on a Monday morning. Also it suits me because all the other days weren't always completely full. We are one supervisor short for one day. So now we have a supervisor every day. And er we mightn't produce any less but I would quite like to produce a bit less. I haven't written it completely down here but erm and I want to do more boxed next year. Just I'm just talking about you know, two hundred less, something like that. Erm... I mean we we have some left but I mean they're mainly empty which doesn't matter a lot I mean I'll them for next year. But it's been very very hard work selling what we've sold. You know I men sort of you know, for very little, like the Conservative Party you know, it was hard work lugging all the you know, you pack it all up, you lug it all there. And I really and truly, when Christmas came,i the first year I really thought, Oh I can't do this next year, it's getting a bit too much. So I don't want it to depend so much on last minute sales. And what I'm saying is that we make less cracker but... with the advertising we're doing doing at the moment, in the magazine and Yellow Pages and I just want to kind I'm going to talk to you about what other ways of advertising. Well let me just start again. We have sold what we did through a lot of physical effort er of a few. You know, physical hard work, last minute. And I think, yes we will do all that but not quite to the extreme and we should try now and sell more during the year and really see how the flow goes. So instead of pushing pushing pushing, let's just see how much comes more or less naturally through advertising. [Wendy:] There's the figures. The Christmas Fair account I'm typing now. [Emmy:] Fine. [Wendy:] Okay? [Emmy:] Fine, yes. And we have been quite heartened by Where's my little list? We've had I think forty five enquiries and definitely one lady wants seventy from Sussex or somewhere, wants seventy crackers for one wedding. Now I'm hoping we get a bit more of that. And what we're doing is if you just look at your pack now, everybody who writes to us, it doesn't matter what they want, whether it's favours of crackers, they're getting a brochure which you know our brochure, which has the favours and crackers on. Ooh I need... [shouting] Wendy? [] Wendy, that letter we are sending to all new enquiries Erm so they get the brochure which has the er crackers and the favours. And then they get er D I Y pack which these two I know you saw that before but this is at the back of it. Okay, so this is not the price list you're used to, this is the D I Y price list. And in the D I Y price list, they can buy here a little pr er trial pack. Now on the trial pack we make a bit of money and it would employ somebody you know, somebody who's been ill. And people can just buy favours and then the instructions to make the favours are on the reverse side. I don't know how big the uptake is because actually it doesn't make a lot of sense you know, it's not that much cheaper. But competitors are doing it. So I think it's a good thing to offer it. And people might actually decide to buy crackers. Then we're sending a letter which erm, well let me just say, we are then also sending, now here with the D I Y, the numbers er coincide Here the numbers coincide with the illustrations, so if I talk about a certain you have to look at paper one, paper two paper three or A B C. And you see what they look like. Okay. And then as I say they can write off for a pack and they get examples which cost them. And then we are sending this. This is how they can fill crackers themselves. So somewhere there's a big party and o or somebody who wants three or four crackers and put their own gifts in. They can do it this way. And then I'm going to 's on Monday, they're going to photograph our Bridal box and they're going to get a photograph with printed on of our bridal box as well. So everybody gets all that. And then a letter saying, you know it's personalized saying, [reading] Dear Mrs Smith, thank you for your enquiry, I'm sending you the information you requested and also thought that you might like to have a l a leaflet about our bridal box. Favours are given to female guests only, crackers could be supplied for your whole wedding party, your females guests [] Oh gosh it's gusts. Must tell her that. [reading] Guests [LAUGHTER] or for selected guests only. We can enclose your ow we can enclose your own presents in crackers, but you can also choose from the gifts we supply. See brochure. Crackers A B C can easily be filled by yourself, see enclosed instructions. The charg the charge per cracker is then one pound eighty. [] Erm [reading] It is possible to coordinate most crackers in colour and style with favours []. You know I'm trying to push more you know. [reading] I hope er that you will be able to choose from our wide range of crackers and favours, just what you want to enhance your special day. Otherwise please send me a colour sample and I will come up with some [] I was doing it very much I you know, the designer's worrying about you. [reading] Me a colour sample and I will come up with some more design suggestions. I look forward to hearing from you. [] So they're getting this whole pack which I hope will pay. Now do you know, could you do me a favour and tell Wendy about that gust because she's just just sending them off. [LAUGHTER] Now there is another way of advertising and with Harrogate not coming off, I must say I'm quite keen on this. This is a firm and they've been going for a number of years. They're advertising, we'll see them in the Yellow Pages. All Yellow Pages, all bridal magazines and as you know there are quite a few. And customers of all the Pro Nuptia and Berkentex shops. The assistants try and make them fill this in. [reading] Tick services in this area you want. [] Now... so we would be here under favours and if we're doing this I think I'm going to say him, Yes I'll do it if you mention crackers as well. You know tick both. He's quite keen on that hasn't got another favour person. And you can have it it is is it a two hundred mile radius? [speaker002:] Er take a hundred [Emmy:] Hundred mile radius he says, but you can argue with that. And then everything in our area erm no They will send hundred mile area, our address to these people and they will tell us that they'll send to these people so we then contact the people as well. And they want the telephone number and he says the best thing is to ring us. And then you can also for the same money which by the way I think is er No I'll let me come to that later. For the same money y they will also tell you of any enquiry in your area, because somebody might not have mentioned favours, but anybody they know and it's a photographer here as well because they're fundamentally photographers, erm they will tell you everybody they know who's going to have er a wedding coming up and then you can write to them. That's in the area. And the shop. I've talked to your cousin, she does it with them. Yes and she said, I can recommend it. Our in Langdale where we go for our timeshare which is an absolutely super place, they do it. And they are happy with it. Er it's a fifty percent uptake but it co and he says, Don't you can ch you can just do it for six months of the Year. But he's told me the main months. And and then you get all these enquiries. Now half year costs including V A T, two hundred and eleven pound fifty. Which I know is all a lot of money and let me just tell you here, what we have spent this year on advertising. Er Brides and Setting up Home, no that's not the whole year, that oh she's just talking what we've spent so far. Brides and Setting up Home is something like five hundred pounds isn't it. [speaker006:] We got funded for that one though. [Emmy:] We got funding for one year but next year we're left with it. I think it's something isn't it getting on for five hundred for the whole year wasn't it. [speaker005:] I think it was something like that. [Emmy:] Ah let's ask Wendy. Yellow Pages, we pay two hundred and ninety three, three hundred pounds. Bridal Fairs I go to, we have to pay either a fee for going or put an advert in. Er comes easily well we have here two hundred and forty eight but you know, say two hundred and fifty to three hundred pounds. So it is a lot of money we're talking about I mean we're five hundred, eight hundred, if we do this as well, we're coming out to one thousand... between one thousand three hundred to one thousand four hundred pounds for advertising. Yeah well, the point is that this is going to generate sales we didn't have up to date. I think that we can [speaker004:] Mm But that's weddings I mean that's you're going for weddings [Emmy:] Weddings weddings but I'm keen on weddings. [speaker004:] Yes I know but I mean th th ce you're talking about selling The Harrogate Fair we're losing on Christmas. [Emmy:] But it doesn't matter does it whether we make Christmas crackers or wedding crackers. We don't mind as long as we make I mean I prefer this because it is to order, we don't make them to stock. But it is a lot of advertising but then... we have to generate the business somehow. We can make in our favour or we can easily make six thousand crackers favours and we've made a thousand. [speaker005:] How are you going to evaluate? [Emmy:] Well erm [speaker005:] Cos that's vital you can [Emmy:] Yes well quite simply, I mean we know all the replies from the bridal magazines, I mean we know what we sell at the Christmas fair and what we sell Christmas cracker-wise. [speaker006:] Mhm. [Emmy:] We can easily evaluate erm what we sell through the magazine because we've got all the enquiries and we know how much uptake there was and [speaker007:] But it's There isn't a problem there, because you're gonna find out aren't you. [Emmy:] If we have the money which really [speaker005:] What doesn't pay you won't do again. [speaker007:] You see the problem the problem to generate. You attract so much business that you can't meet. [Emmy:] You just say sorry. [speaker005:] Success is er [speaker007:] Yeah but then you against the advertising say I'm sorry we can't do it. [Emmy:] W well [speaker005:] No but I think Success problem. [Emmy:] Easy thing to cope with yes. [speaker005:] It's easier to cope with than failure. [Emmy:] Would you [speaker007:] dangerous spending far too much on advertising, the product won't bear it. [speaker005:] Yes well there I'd agree with you there [Emmy:] No the favours do bear it. The favours do bear it [speaker007:] well. [Emmy:] And and Ian we haven't got much profit margin on our Christmas crackers [speaker007:] Mm. [Emmy:] but we have a wider profit margin on our wedding crackers. They're differently priced. But I would say to you Well the point is this is spending on hope. It's not on something we do at the moment, it's wanting to get into a different market increasing. We have the cap we have the capability of of producing it. Erm we don't so and the way I feel like saying, well let's first do the bridal magazine, now I've seen how far that goes. Another side of me says, well let's go for it now. We're all set up, we've got it all everything is going, let's go for it. [speaker007:] got the money. [Emmy:] No but [speaker005:] No but you evaluate the return [Emmy:] we what I would say is could you possibly give Ian, Zain and me the authority to work that one out. That we sit down with the figures and it might be another thing like we did with the bridal magazines, that we go to somebody and say, look we would like to do this to increase our turnover, will you fund us for half a year? And again like we no we're not paying er personally for our bridal magazine for a year [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] and get another person to sponsor us for that [speaker006:] How many adverts [speaker007:] That's the one that's the one danger that I see, that instead of being led by the turnover of the product, we're being led by the funding we can obtain which I think is a is a weakness in the system. [Emmy:] It is not really because I was just Noel and I just had a chat this morning. I think you have to appreciate here that what we are doing is mainly therapy. And we must make it pay as much as we can. But and we must really work on it, but we will have our limits, due to the slowness of people, due to the wastage. I mean the product might might work for you and me and it might not it will work the same for them, even if we try our hardest. And but as we were saying earlier on, the work in itself is a therapy and that will need funding and we are a charity. And we will always have to be helped. [speaker007:] Yeah but but the point I'm trying to make is that it seems to me that if we're continually spending money on advertising, we're creating another problem elsewhere. In other words, on we can establish that we yes that's true, but we can't necessarily meet it because we are limited on what we can produce. [Emmy:] No. [speaker004:] No we haven't met that yet. [Emmy:] We still have a lot of capacity left. The the [speaker005:] That was the point I was making. [Emmy:] Yeah but the favour we're only touching on what we can do. We have now one girl there once a week. I mean there's a lot more we can do that is fairly profitable the and the whole object of what we're doing here is to get people occupied you know [speaker007:] Yeah I'm not I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is the question is, whether we're using the monies we're being given to fund it in the right way. [Emmy:] No. [speaker007:] By spending it on advertising if it's not successful. [Emmy:] No no no no. Because we would it would be No. No. No [speaker006:] You don't know that do you [speaker007:] No we don't know that [speaker006:] know that so you give it [Emmy:] No but we would This money we spend at the moment er on the bridal magazine was specifically given to test the market by this advertising. [speaker007:] Mm. [Emmy:] And I would again ask to have money given specifically for this you know, for this purpose. And not for buying a machine or something. You know it's specific. [speaker007:] Right. [speaker004:] How many times do we advertise in the bridal magazine? [Emmy:] Twice. [speaker004:] Twice. [Emmy:] The trouble is that we didn't have our leaflets ready because when you d er depend on large firms to help you, you know they're always just so busy when you need them, so it was dragged out. [speaker005:] How many enquiries did you have? [Emmy:] Forty five. [speaker004:] And you've got the leaflets out now? [Emmy:] The leaflets are out today. [speaker006:] how many orders have we had from it? [Emmy:] Because the leaflets are the enquiries are going to be answered today because only today did the second leaflet come. [speaker004:] It's very difficult as well because when [Emmy:] We couldn't answer. [speaker004:] you you know the thing, you do have a wedding in your family you sometimes enquire about these things a year before you actually decide to order six months later. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker004:] So it's going to be very difficult to [Emmy:] To evaluate it. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker007:] I think the [Emmy:] You're quite right. [speaker007:] I think the thing that we need to establish is that before you embark on any advertising, whatever it is, that you have funding for it. [Emmy:] Oh yes. [speaker007:] And and then evaluate it from there. But [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker007:] you cannot embark on an advertising program that isn't being funded by the higher profit made by the product [Emmy:] No. [speaker007:] Or by funds obtained [Emmy:] No. [speaker007:] by grants. So therefore that you need what you need is a clear understanding [Emmy:] Yeah. [speaker007:] that any advertising must be funded independently. [Emmy:] Yes. Yes. Yes. Unless with the bridal magazine we've had funding for one year. Erm the crunch will come in in a year we should You see I'm hoping that I mean the favours are important. And I'm hoping that next year we can afford our advertising. I'm hoping that. But as Celia says, the trouble is that so many people, they will only buy it in a year. They ask now and they buy in a year. But on the other hand a [speaker004:] But you should have I mean you should be able to I would have though in a year [Emmy:] Well I've had some telephone enquiries. One as I say for seventy crackers. [speaker005:] Does that seventy crackers. Is she going to follow it up? [Emmy:] Yes well she's definitely I mean she's ordered. I'll have to Yes she's definitely getting them. And I had three more telephone enquiries e and they were by telephone, they're in a hurry, you know, can you do it until the fifteenth of May, or can you do it until February something. You always get that last minute person too don't you. But [speaker006:] Well I think most of them will be within the two months of the wedding but there'll be enquiries now perhaps for a wedding at Christmas or even next spring. That [speaker005:] Wouldn't it make wouldn't it make sense to set aside a figure annually for advertising beyond which you don't go. You agree a figure based on what you [Emmy:] We haven't got the money at the moment we have [speaker007:] Well that that that's the that this is the real crunch. We haven't got the cash to do that so therefore I think the criteria must be, have we got funding before we embark on advertising. [Emmy:] The criteria is I think, will somebody give us the funding to do this? Now I mean I would hate to use the money we've got. We have to get somebody who will pay us this. [speaker006:] Well then I should let that be your criteria then erm [Emmy:] Yes because at the end of the day [speaker004:] But then you you also have to evaluate what what your priorities are because you can only go to so many people for funding can't you. So you know once you've gone to them No once you've gone to them for advertising you can't go to that person for something else. [speaker006:] Bits and pieces of equipment. [speaker004:] Mm so you have you know decide don't you what you want to spend the money on. [Emmy:] Yes. I know. I know. [speaker005:] But there isn't any reason why I suppose if you were looking at the the local authority grant it couldn't go into that for advertising. Because without advertising. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker007:] Unless you can do it by reputation [speaker005:] Well no but that that takes [Emmy:] It's too [speaker005:] some time to do [speaker007:] It does yes. [Emmy:] It's too slow. [speaker005:] You you do need to [speaker007:] Oh I I think it is I think it's essential that you don't take other funds and spend the money on advertising and then [speaker005:] That's right. [speaker007:] and then not meet [Emmy:] I think that is fully understood, we can't do that. Because all our funding is in a way allocated isn't it. Erm I mean in another year er hopefully it comes out of the profit margin. I mean eventually eventually, sooner or later and it might be later if somebody else will still it has to come out of the profit margin. But it's a chicken and the egg. The business is out there, we are set up to do it, and I've worked it out and and Zain and Ian and I of course we have to go through it, that eventually we will be able to meet it. But it all stands and falls by it. Do you know, I mean for so long now we've done it very much on personal effort. And now we're sort of letting it run how a business would. You know if this was my business, I would have budgeted for this amount of advertising to be ab I mean you can't sit it by getting at home er you can't get it by sitting at home. Erm you need somewhere don't you. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] Mm. [Emmy:] And I would have budgeted for that in my own business otherwise it wouldn't come. It's a lot of money for what we're doing. At the same time if we were have a little shop. The Christmas Fair is the best way of marketing we do but it's limited. You know we will only do so much and we need to do more. So would you give us the authority [speaker006:] It's not worth How much is it to go I'm just thinking of the differe the cost of advertising [Emmy:] I don't know it's a hundred and fifty or something. [speaker006:] Ah ah against. [speaker004:] Yes that's right I think that's a quite valid point. [speaker006:] Erm you know if you're going to use your two hundred pounds, for your advertising. Er granted that's weddings and and Christmas isn't it you know it's Christmas crackers [speaker004:] Have we ever [speaker002:] we've never been to [Emmy:] We I have enquired about [speaker006:] But it's always been too expensive you said I think. [Emmy:] Well it is you see if you want we would need aside No I mean it's a compared with the Harrogate one it is not. I doubt you're going to be there for three days though. It's expensive for what you get. I feel again that it's a lot of our actual customers are the same people coming like we had in Allerton [speaker006:] Yeah well I did wonder about that [Emmy:] that we're not actually and the thing is, with advertising here, we're selling more than Christmas crackers. I mean we hope to sell our erm favours, we hope to sell other things. I don't know we could look into that. Should we would you like Ian, Zain and I and does anybody else want to be involved. I think decision has to be made after er consideration and and of a few people putting heads together. [speaker004:] It's just I'm thinking that you've got your bridal magazine which you're obviously going into and you're going to your bridal sales. Erm you are fairly well saturating that specific advertising [speaker006:] I would have thought so myself [speaker004:] Er and erm and I just wonder whether you'll get that much more. I mean until you've had a go at the two you can't know. [Emmy:] You can't It is so much easier when the business actually comes through the letter box. [speaker006:] Well that's right yes. [speaker004:] Yes I'm sure. [Emmy:] And if it comes through the year and we work to order. [speaker004:] Mhm. [Emmy:] Much less nerve wracking. I mean this is always dreadful the worry at the end. You know how much have I left and what do I do now. [speaker005:] But if but if Emmy gets the funding nothing to worry about. [speaker004:] No that's true. [Emmy:] But we have to see. But I had had quite er if you want funding erm there's only so many people out there, you better make a success of what you're doing. Er if you want to go back to the same people. So even if other people pay for it, we will have to be pretty convinced that it will be successful. [speaker005:] Yes but what you're saying is that if you stay how you are now you're not going to get enough orders. [Emmy:] I feel that erm well I think we could cope erm... twenty four en enquiries, that's two adverts. Erm I don't know. I think it it needs a bit of discussion to see, [speaker005:] what I told Emmy though that that the other people advertising, they're dealing in the wedding dresses, so one enquiry could pay for the whole lot, for her she's dealing in nothing. [Emmy:] I know but then that's our game. [speaker006:] Well that's just the problem isn't it. [speaker005:] That's the problem. [speaker006:] It's a very small product. [Emmy:] I know I know [speaker005:] It's it's [speaker006:] It's a lot of money Well this is that Ian was making in the first place isn't it, product actually [speaker007:] Can it carry it? [speaker006:] Yeah can it carry it. [Emmy:] But that's the only product [speaker005:] It's tuppence ha'penny stuffy really isn't it. [Emmy:] we know we can make to that standard. [speaker007:] Well if we're looking in the wrong Emmy, if we're looking at at general er spread-shot advertising,i we're in a market which is much tougher than we we sometimes appreciate. Whereas if we go on the back of something else or somebody else as as you were saying on on the back of a wedding er brochure or something like that, in other words, go down down a specialized avenue rather than a general one, you might achieve something better. [Emmy:] But this is [speaker007:] But you see, unless you've got first of all as you quite rightly said, unless we've tried it, we don't know. But th that of itself, necessitates evaluating the results of what we're doing. And if in fact we haven't got anything and we've advertised in the Yellow Pages, Evening Press, we've advertised in in quite a number of other er bridal magazines, but have we got information as to the the the benefits derived from each one of those? And if we haven't, we're not really in a strong position to advertise something else [speaker002:] We have [Emmy:] We can evaluate what we have done. The point is that when I go The best thing is wedding fairs where you are seen and talk to people, but again that is a lot of effort depends very much [speaker005:] Costly [Emmy:] Sorry? [speaker005:] It's costly too. [Emmy:] It's costly but we have to do that as well. But [speaker007:] But is it is it effective, that's the main thing. [Emmy:] . But then there are a lot of wedding fairs and it's in the end you know, brides I mean there can't be any keener than brides, they just go to extremes in their preparation. And they go to all the wedding fairs. So i if you go to three in the spring, the main hotels and three at autumn, then very likely all the brides have seen you. And you can't expand that more. You know there is a limit to how far you get. But all I can say is we people who see us I mean it's not as if everybody has to have favours with their wedding, it's still a fairly new thing. We do have You know we sold a thousand favours this way, it's not bad. And I just have the feeling w the point is w what that is proving is we're good enough, we can compete. Now people don't come here and say, Oh I'll have a look at somebody else, they come here and buy. [speaker004:] I think it's [Emmy:] Very seldom have we had somebody come in [speaker004:] I mean I wonder if we should be spending this much money on another wedding type advertising until we've really had time to evaluate what we're getting from the bridal magazine. [Emmy:] Well this is this is the this is the point you can make. This is what I wonder. Should we not first see how this or should we say, look let's go for it now because I mean you know, we've been going now some years, what another year because with weddings, if you don't do it now you've lost [speaker005:] The time lag's terrific isn't it. [Emmy:] this year again you know. [speaker004:] And I think it's got to have one year of really high exposure. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker004:] People get to know your name then as well. I think if you're seen at all the wedding fairs no good just going to one wedding fair. And the same perhaps if you're exposed over a [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker004:] a a in in magazines and at wedding fairs, you get to be known then. [speaker008:] When you're actually get an order do you actually [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker008:] So if do you have that information on your computer, I was think that if you did that consistently over a year. [Emmy:] Yes well it's mainly wedding fairs. [speaker008:] Then you just ask the computer at the end of the year and you'll see whether your advertising [Emmy:] I'm telling I'm telling you, it's wedding fairs. Mainly. There's some Yellow Pages. But then there's a funny thing, Yellow Pages are some people you get a contact through Yellow Pages er which is not actually selling crackers but somebody wanted to know about you for something else you know, like. But wedding fairs as I say, they are at the end of the day, limited. You know you'll only you will only get that much for wedding fairs and we are getting that. [speaker005:] But at the end of the day [speaker004:] You don't Yes. you don't think the other thing is that people who erm you know there there is everybody's got wedding fairs in their own area, first of all, they're going to go to those anyway and buy from their own local person. Rather than looking in a magazine and buying something that that erm [Emmy:] I was thinking that but the I'm surprised I mean yes. What forty fi well we have a bit more, Say we have forty eight replies by now. Well forty eight people know they wrote away for something. And a lot of people are advertising favours so [speaker005:] But that doesn't mean a thing. [Emmy:] No no And I can't tell you [speaker005:] Doesn't mean anything. [speaker007:] They might have ticked it, they might write to every [speaker006:] Yeah that's quite true. [Emmy:] Oh I know Desmond I'm repeating myself, we've just said that. We will not know that in a hurry. I do know though that we've got some definite orders from it already. [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] You know. But [speaker008:] Yeah if you follow the sort of logic you were saying though the main business comes from wedding fairs, just three in the Autumn and three in the Winter. It's the around it would it would pay you so what you were saying do six in the Autumn and six in the Winter and don't do anything else. [Emmy:] Pay no no no no no. One costs fifty to sixty pounds. [speaker005:] No because it's the same people [Emmy:] No it's the same people going round. [speaker005:] It's the same people who who who go round, six hotels [speaker008:] Yeah u [speaker005:] er so you're just [Emmy:] You're not gaining. [speaker005:] And costs you money [Emmy:] There is an optimum figure. And it does cost you. You know you can easily spend three hundred pounds er doing that. And and I'm all in favour as I say getting more through the letter box, it's easier for us and it But I I think I mean I'm quite happy to leave this now and just carry on with the bridal But we have to make this pay itself [speaker005:] Yes but I [Emmy:] I mean at the end of the year, we need to have sold a Because these people, they need to come for funding purposes. I can't I can't lay off. Because that's the whole object, they have to come. They're churning out crackers and they're churning them out and they have to be sold. And at the end of the year, today in a year, we will sit here and we have to have sold it. And we have to get into that market, we can't afford too much to to hang back. And if I'm saying I really want to do less for the cracker bar now, because that was hard pushed. Erm then It is though let me just say quickly It is a recognized fact for weddings that you do sell through the magazines. The brides as I say, nothing is too much trouble for them. They read them and yes they send away to several and then you have to score, you have to have something better than somebody else. And I think we can compete. But shall we can go on forever, shall we leave it for Zain, Ian and I [speaker005:] I think that's the best thing. [Emmy:] to make that decision. And we might very well decide against it, but I think one day I would quite like to [speaker005:] Yeah but there's a Yes but at the same time, this way I agree with you, I I personally would do it if you have the funding and you're going to evaluate it because you cannot lose. But you've got to be strict with yourself. And really make some decisions, is it worth. [speaker008:] And you've got to know the source of your funds to do it. [Emmy:] Right so that's that on marketing and. And then the Christmas Fair accounts, if you want to take one. Here you go, and they've been slightly redone by Ian be for the accountants you know. And I think we still haven't taken the telephone yes we have done now.. [speaker006:] Well yeah, I haven't really kept that yet but [Emmy:] No. [speaker006:] Christmas Fair accounts. [speaker007:] There are one or two Well there are two items in there which haven't really been resolved at this point and that's the i the erm ins er where am I. It's the breakages which is one, the twenty one twenty one pounds there. And the telephone calls, the forty five ninety two, they haven't effectively been paid yet, but they are included in the result presumably this hasn't er been finally settled as regards the cash but this is the result. [speaker006:] But the breakages have been paid for haven't they, we have. [speaker004:] Have we? [speaker006:] That went today. [speaker007:] Yeah it wasn't included Well in fact it showed it as an outstanding amount. [speaker006:] Mm yeah. [speaker007:] This is why and one of the the real problems with this is it's not that I'm criticising, it's just that if in fact you've got somebody who was appointed as a treasurer, you can in fact get more information out of it, instead of having to guess what we got from where and how it came in. At the moment I've had to er shall we say adjust certain figures, because in fact er I haven't got the details. But this is the result and I I think it's very creditable. [Emmy:] What we are not sure is that at the end of the day it doesn't matter all that much what exactly was the raffle and what exactly was the entrance fee because we didn't keep a note of that. Erm I have a feeling the entrance fee was [speaker005:] It doesn't change the bottom line. [Emmy:] It doesn't change it it doesn't matter so much, the only thing is it'll be interest how many people came. [speaker007:] Yeah well that'll have to be adjusted [Emmy:] Erm [speaker007:] let's put it that way. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker004:] Well it would have to be very strictly adhered to then next year. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker004:] Somehow. I mean the thing happened, the float indeed was just split. [Emmy:] Well Ian is quite irked it happened because people Zain and Desmond got the job on the day and it wasn't quite clearly said, my fault, not quite clearly said exactly, count the money religiously and [break in recording] [speaker006:] Yes she was m waylaid [Emmy:] It comes with a letter which I can't find you know, telling them about us. [speaker005:] Ah. [Emmy:] These are our figures now and then Zain can take over. Erm [speaker005:] We're on number six now aren't we? [Emmy:] This you should have had you should have had this with the manager's report. They're late. Okay, this is part of the manager's report. Oh you've got one.... Oh... She does does she. [speaker007:] the one that you were talking about [Emmy:] No this is was part of the manager's report. [speaker009:] You've got one are you looking at the Christmas fair? [Emmy:] No no this is late [speaker004:] We've had that now. [Emmy:] this is part these are the figures you'd normally have with your [speaker009:] Yes. [Emmy:] with your erm. [speaker008:] Oh I've I've got two. [speaker007:] he's got mine then. [Emmy:] I've got I've lost everything now. I've lost my [speaker009:] Are we still at the erm trading accounts for the Christmas Fair or have we move on? [Emmy:] We have to come back to that in a minute okay. Because er we had not my accounts, the trading accounts. Okay. [speaker009:] Right well the next one Well seven and eight actually are one and the same. [Emmy:] What is that I've lost my [speaker009:] It's to do with self employment [Emmy:] Yeah, just an update and the sewing. Should I quickly do that? [speaker009:] Yeah. [Emmy:] Erm well as you know, Noel came and said there's spare money, have you got an idea. And I said, yes, this self employment. Now Zain has given me great help and everybody sort of helped er you know I've discussed it with everybody and we've almost finished erm a really good proposal I think. I think it's really really well written and and I'm very happy about it because I've got it out of my system because when I first started that that was my aim. So as soon as it's ready we will sent you a copy and please read it. I will send you a copy before it actually goes off and read it and ring me aft if if there's anything you don't understand or you don't agree with okay? [speaker009:] Is everyone fully aware of what the self employment [Emmy:] Well I explained it last time didn't I. And the sewing course I mentioned earlier, we are getting the money and we've discussed that already and it's all set out. Erm... Yeah. [speaker009:] You don't want to say anything more on the self employment? [Emmy:] No but I just know that I've forgotten something to say. [speaker009:] questionnaire to go with that [Emmy:] Oh very good questionnaire Zain did and we've almost done it. We'll send you a sample of all that. Very very well done I think it all Erm there was one other thing I thought I would ask. It will hopefully come back to me. Right okay. [speaker009:] Fine. Well the next one is er ignore number eight because it's. Training for for Wendy. [Emmy:] Yes. Now... Wendy... is struggling hard with the book-keeping. And with the er stock control. It's very hard work for her er you know she has to sort of get a get all the systems She has to you know it's it's very hard work to get the systems going. Now she is g has put herself down no no Zain. She has put she's put herself down for one day at the end of her accounts to learn about accountancy and as Ian pointed out, it's it's it's not a lot. Er to learn accountancy but [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] it was a bit a bit m a bit stronger than that but carry on [Emmy:] But she's a very intelligent girl and she's got a head start because Ian has taught and she's self taught her through TAS. Erm and this man said, you know what we are very aware of is trial balance sheets you have, she needs to know the exact format. And I think she can learn a lot there and I mean s you know, she is she is erm [speaker009:] this is a this is a new item, how did this come about? Are you saying that the package [Emmy:] The pack the TAS package has arrived [speaker009:] Yeah. [Emmy:] But it's mainly to erm present it to this committee, the trial balance sheet, She doesn't quite know how to do that and altogether she feels she just wants she says, how she's doing it now, at least she wants to check out with somebody, is she doing it how they would do it. So she's going for a day there. And I mean this is what self employed people do, you know they go and they get taught there and then that's it and then they the rest they have to teach themselves. So I'm very pleased you know I suggested it to Wendy and Wendy agreed that [speaker009:] What what is that costing? [Emmy:] It's costing nothing, the day. It's just the day it takes you know. [speaker009:] Right. [Emmy:] That's where Right fine. And the other thing is, I am really asking you to give Wendy two more hours a week for the next three months and then review it. Because once she has got the disciplines in place, she it should l take less time, but at the moment she is really overburdened. She does work seventeen to nineteen hours here a week and she takes her work home. [speaker009:] Mm. [Emmy:] And she's paid for eleven hours. And she's working very hard I mean,wh yesterday she was here at six o'clock, so I was long home and Wendy rang from here and she was still here. So please will you consider for three months out of our funds which has to be the to pay her that amount of money or else we cannot cope. Because I can't take it off her, I don't know how to do it. Nobody is there who can She has to do it. But she also has to learn it. And it's asking too much at the moment. [speaker009:] I was gonna ask is you know that he ha she has to do all these long hours. Er these hours th just developed over time or is just the work that's go [Emmy:] The work. [speaker009:] increased. [Emmy:] Oh yeah. [speaker009:] Are we asking her to do things that we weren't [Emmy:] Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean... we've tried to write down everything she does but it's so varied I mean, telephone calls and she has to do telephone calls. At the moment she has typed this proposal for me. You might think well that's not take long. But I mean we've been going over and over that proposal. You know it's not just once typed. You know we've corrected it and gone on about it and discussed it. We have things like appraisals to do, she has e I mean I can't tell you, all I can is I'm working at the side of her, she works all the time, she's very fast, she's very intelligent. She can't cope with the time she she has. But we want to review it after a few months because as I say, once she's got herself organized, it might be alright. Also if we do this self employment, I'll ask for more admin time. [speaker009:] So you're saying after three months the work will get [Emmy:] Easier hopefully. We will have to see. See at the moment she has to learn about TAS you know. She had to learn about accountancy, [speaker009:] Mm. [Emmy:] now she has to learn about stock control. Erm but once she's got it in place what do you think Ian? I mean hopefully then it will take up less time. [speaker007:] Well Yes I suppose that the thing is if she's having to work extra hours, she ought to be paid for them. [Emmy:] Mm. We can't expect her I mean she's very good hearted [speaker007:] It's as simple as that I mean we can't expect her to do it. [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] And I think she'll still do lots of time on top. But er I think we can't nobody else can do it and it has to be done. [speaker006:] Is is there room for payment from the erm money that we're getting from [Emmy:] No not really Er yes already she's already got two hours [speaker006:] she does she does she cos she does work [speaker004:] We've already got to pay her two hours. [speaker009:] The the money is not specific to any [speaker004:] No exactly [speaker009:] It's overall you know so if we choose to direct some money for [Emmy:] Yes but then we are short in the admin course. [speaker006:] Yeah. Or or the rest I mean in general [Emmy:] You know er it has to come really out of the Christmas Fair or Sir 's donations, something unallocated. We have the money. And then we have to review it again and er [speaker004:] Well I think as Ian says, there's no real choice is there. [speaker007:] No there isn't a choice no. [speaker009:] Well are we agreed then? Okay. Anything else on That's it on the [Emmy:] That's it. [speaker009:] So you're saying after three months you want to review it. [Emmy:] Review it after three months and see how we are coping then. [speaker004:] But that'll take up some. [Emmy:] She's now eleven, that will be thirteen thirteen paid hours. Also we are hoping to get people from the admin course to help with the. But unless she's got it in place, you can't do it. [speaker004:] They cannot work on their own. [Emmy:] No. And they can only work once it's properly set out. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Emmy:] It's not helped that [speaker004:] They couldn't come and run the office on their own if somebody else wasn't here, not yet. [speaker009:] So really the admin course doesn't really make is not going to reduce any hours anyway? [speaker006:] It could do depending how much how much they could be delegated. But I don't think they could you couldn't say come here unlock your door you know. Right there'll be some work for you to do. like a junior typist [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker006:] they'd need erm [Emmy:] But ano but what I think would happen when we get maybe Mike or Chris or somebody helping, it's not that they're taking work off Wendy, but that we will do more physical checks, do you know what I mean, with the stock control. Wendy will do the computer bit and they'll do the counting bit. That kind of thing. And erm somebody like Mike of Chris is perfectly capable of get their bits of paper to check to tick off things like that but Wendy will have to check it and put it you know they could do some of the legwork but not yet. [speaker004:] No. [Emmy:] It has to be ready for that okay? [speaker007:] Yeah I think any anything that's on the computer needs to have the input prepared beforehand. Now some of the inputs been prepared production of crackers, the production of sewing material things like that. Incoming material for stock, movements of stock, they can all be done by people on the admin course providing you can set a form up and say, go and do this. And then Wendy's just go to put it in the machine and the list of it. [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Okay. [speaker009:] Right, you've already covered the sewing Ian treasurer's report. [speaker007:] Well I think there is the the only report that I've got is the fact that the financial summary er you've seen at the same time as I have. [Emmy:] You see this is what we haven't got at the moment. Erm we need erm this er trial balance sheet, I recommend every second committee making which makes it every three months. That's normal and that's what Wendy has to learn to do or else it's you know it's it's difficult for somebody else to if Ian did it he would have to get all the figures first. So that's what Wendy has, she's going quite soon. [speaker007:] I think the the truth of the matter is that what the committee needs is this information that we've got in front of us. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker007:] It's a question of the format of it. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker007:] In other words we need to know what we've received, what we've spent and where it belongs i within the organization. [Emmy:] Right and that's what she doesn't know at the moment. [speaker007:] And we also need a you know, the stocks that we're holding, at the end of every month. Because in fact if we're holding far too much stock we ought to do something about reducing it because it's all [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker007:] tying up cash. And it's the cash flow [Emmy:] I would recommend every three months. That we have a trial balance sheet every three months. [speaker006:] But you'll naturally have more stock won't you at the beginning of the year. [Emmy:] We have times though before er before our Christmas Fair we have maximum stock. [speaker005:] It builds up to that. [Emmy:] Now we are low on stock. [speaker005:] And it builds up [Emmy:] Now we're low on stock. [speaker006:] Mm. [Emmy:] But you know the the the most we have is before Christmas. Can I just quickly erm I know what you mean I know what you mean. [speaker006:] sometimes it'll look worse than it is. [Emmy:] Yes and the committee has to learn to adjust themselves to that to that to not worry [speaker007:] Well there's an explanation for it. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker007:] But we ought to be aware of what values we're holding in in various [Emmy:] Yes. Because it will be er it will be cut down is the word into finished products and raw stock. So if I before Christmas you should have a lot of finished products which won't worry you. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] Mm. [Emmy:] Because it's just a matter of selling them. [speaker009:] Can I just go back on this I mean you say this is how we want it, does this [Emmy:] No. [speaker009:] actually tell me what the cash flow is? [Emmy:] No No that's just what we're saying. This is some information which is useful for you but we need a trial balance sheet every three months which Wendy at the moment [speaker009:] Well why why do we have wait three months? [speaker008:] Yes it should be it should be available every time we meet. [Emmy:] Because that is [speaker007:] The thing is that what we need and what's missing from this is in fact the balance that was available at the time we started this period. In other words, over the last six weeks. [Emmy:] I know. [speaker007:] Er and that's what missing and in fact we've now got a balance figure at the end there but er I'm not too sure what it means. [Emmy:] No. [speaker007:] But if in fact we knew where we were starting from, we could see the movement from the last period, the period and we've got an explanation of what that means [Emmy:] Yes I know. We we are very aware of that. That's what we're aiming at and that's what hopefully she will come up with. This is very quickly which I didn't have before, my way of doing the trading account and Ian was going to sympathize because he said there's no need to put exactly but for us it's quite interesting to see that. If you want a quick look at that. That's the Christmas Fair only and next time I will give you the the rest of all the selling parties. I've always done that.... [speaker004:] These little Smarties, the go round don't they the [Emmy:] Yes we did go round. [speaker009:] Did you work these back from the stocks in? How did you work them out? [Emmy:] Well I counted ev this is only the Christmas Fair okay. [speaker009:] Yeah. [Emmy:] I counted er well Tom counted everything going out. But I also counted the crackers going out. Er because that was easy, there was always full boxes. And er then everything after the Fair went to my home and I counted every, everything. I wrote it down but I c I did only do that for the Christmas Fair. Erm the rest is going to be more difficult. But so I spent quite some time over that. And it was quite interesting to see. Erm Tom has a different er starting number of crackers but that is because I filled some more up. But I have a note of that. [speaker009:] So what was the overall income on the er [Emmy:] Two thousand sixty eight [speaker009:] No there was also income from the doors. [Emmy:] Oh well yes you were away. Oh well you will have a little when you're dealing with little items you do get a difference. No but I mean things broke. And you somebody said you thought you saw somebody steal something. [speaker004:] Oh yes. I couldn't believe it but [speaker005:] Adult or child? [speaker006:] Pardon? [speaker005:] Adult or child. [speaker006:] Pardon? [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] Really, something of ours? [speaker004:] Mm yes oh in fact the favours [Emmy:] Because that was super light and they took them. [speaker006:] Er and was it said she saw somebody take a cake. [speaker005:] A kilt? [speaker002:] A cake. [Emmy:] Gosh, wee geriatrics, it can't get any worse now. [LAUGHTER] Right I'm in a hurry, can we get on. It's I would like to spend some money, can I mention that now then? [speaker009:] I'm trying to I'm trying to tie this this erm... [speaker005:] Actually that's something you're gonna have to watch isn't it? [Emmy:] Mm? [speaker005:] Theft [speaker006:] You wouldn't think it'd pay to come in that they would steal [speaker005:] Oh. [speaker006:] I mean the pound in can't be worth the [speaker005:] Stealing's unbelievable. [speaker004:] Mm it just eases [speaker005:] Be a shopkeeper and then you find out. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker009:] Can I just on on this Christmas Fair, I know some of the sort of accounting of money was erm... well not exactly brilliant. I Are you likely through next this coming year set up [Emmy:] No Ian has just mentioned that. [speaker004:] We have one person in charge of ever [Emmy:] with you and Desmond may I say [speaker004:] hassle about. Raffle and door. [Emmy:] And it is not a serious mistake because all we are not sure about is what was raffle, what was door. That's the only thing. Er which at the end of the day, cause all the money was bagged. Erm [speaker004:] It wasn't as though any went missing. [Emmy:] and it's either in the raffle money or in the door money. The two together are in correct amount. It's doesn't matter but Ian has suggested that next time we appoint a treasurer who has the account [speaker005:] In actual fact, there was no mistake made, I was just purely asked to bag the money. [speaker009:] Well I think that's what we were doing. [speaker007:] And we did it and we did it jointly for for security, that we agreed the figure [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] No mistake was made. Because I was never asked to. [speaker006:] I mean I was asked to keep my sewing money, completely separate. I provided my own float, I had nothing to do with any of the money. [speaker007:] No. [Emmy:] Right. [speaker006:] And then but then at the end er you know I think you said, Oh but Emmy says it all has to put together. [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker006:] But fortunately I did write down [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker006:] what mine Because I I mean I because she had asked me originally to keep it but I keep mine all separate until you asked me for it. [Emmy:] Yes. No no no no [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] It was all bagged together. [speaker004:] She was very concerned then. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] Are you trying to tell me it was somebody's fault? [speaker004:] No it was nobody's fault. [speaker007:] I can believe that. [speaker004:] It was it was that everybody needed the money, then we and it all went in one pot. [Emmy:] Ian is correct it was the chairman's fault [speaker002:] so next nest year [Emmy:] he should have known or whoever organized the fair should have known so really it doesn't work unless you make one person responsible for that job. [speaker005:] But you I think I think w er well it's no good saying it now but I don't think you can ask one person under the heat of all that to count up separate [Emmy:] No no no no no. No no no no no Nobody's saying that. [speaker005:] I think it could be the individual person. [Emmy:] No no no no no. [speaker005:] No. [Emmy:] No. No no no no no no no no [speaker007:] No no no what what Can I can I just say well I'm What what the treasurer of an event like this needs to do is to note down the source of the cash he receives, to note where it's coming from different products, how much is being received from that [speaker004:] Yes but that's I think that Desmond's quite right, what should have happened was just as Emmy said to me originally, you keep your sewing money separate. [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker004:] The person doing the raffle should have their money separate, [speaker007:] Yes fine. [speaker004:] the person doing the door. The that's how it should happen and and one person is simply in charge of taking that and making a note of their amount. [speaker007:] they say is the door, [speaker006:] needs to receive all those things. [speaker005:] But you wouldn't have time to count each individual pot [speaker006:] Well the raffle people certainly wouldn't. [speaker005:] with the person. [Emmy:] No but [speaker006:] But the person is responsible for their [Emmy:] The person keeps. [speaker006:] I was responsible for mine. I counted mine completely. I had [Emmy:] Pat had the same as the trading people, we knew what we took. [speaker007:] Yes. [Emmy:] So we could give it all to you and you could bank it. [speaker005:] Yes but it's rather um [speaker006:] And then the person doing the raffle the person in the door should have been the same. [speaker005:] But it's rather unfair on the person if he's given all this money from five different sources and one person makes a mistake of ten pounds which is easy to do. You add it up and there's ten pounds missing. And everybody says, Well I gave you a hundred, I gave him five, you [Emmy:] Can I please because I have to be off in a few minutes. [speaker007:] Well I am I am I am quite sure that the person who's actually if you appointed them treasurer has got the authority to be able to say, there was ten pounds difference, I'm knocking it off the door and that's it. [Emmy:] we're going around in circles [speaker009:] All we we've agreed that we're going to need someone to control it at the next fair. [speaker006:] Yes I think that's fair enough. [speaker009:] Okay. [speaker007:] You'll definitely need somebody to appoint. [speaker009:] Right erm. [speaker006:] Ian Ian Ian's going to be best at it. [Emmy:] I have to be off so soon, come on what now. Erm sorry sorry to come back again to to this financial summary. [speaker009:] So are we saying after all these balances are done, that statement at the very end end of December therefore. Therefore the cash flow situation isn't four thousand in trading committee, trading account of seven thousand seven hundred in the committee account at this moment. [Emmy:] Well no we're not saying any such thing, we're saying that this format is not very helpful and that Wendy is learning, is going to learn format that is better. [speaker009:] And who is deciding on the format? [Emmy:] There is a set formula to do it and she has to learn it. She don't know how to do it. And she has to learn how to do it. [speaker007:] Basically all all we is that the the movement from the various accounts should be known. In other words you've got the trading account which is how 's trading, the committee account, the petty cash and the wages box are part and parcel of the trading but they're kept as separate entities within the organization. [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker007:] Now then all we're doing, what we should have done is that we should have had an opening balance at the beginni or the end of December when the di information was first struck. And then any movement since then is identified either as expenditure or as income. [speaker009:] Right. [speaker007:] And the final balance represents the position at the end of the or should do. That's basically what we're aiming for. Now this is the first time I've seen these and I can't say whether they're right, wrong bad of indifferent, All I can say is that this was the intention. So that the committee are aware of the the movement of cash from one period to the next. [speaker009:] So you haven't had sight of this before today? [Emmy:] No it's only just come. Okay. [speaker009:] Oh well okay, the other we've got to do is be in the situation where you've had a look at it before we all see it. [Emmy:] Yeah well why that happened,... Oh I think it was just pressure of work you know, she had so much else to do. And it needed to be entered before she knew. [speaker009:] Okay but all I was just saying is that it would be helpful that before we that Ian has seen through these [Emmy:] Look every time we've done it that's what we also do it goes out on the manager's report w with the minutes or with the agenda. This was the first time and it was pressure of work that we haven't done it for you to see it earlier, this is not normal so just forgive this one time and we needn't spend any more thought on it because next time it it going to be different and it always has been different. Okay. [speaker007:] But this is the format [speaker009:] Okay. [Emmy:] Yes I know. Yes. [speaker009:] Right. [Emmy:] Erm. [speaker009:] Last item, we wanted [Emmy:] What is it? [speaker009:] You wanted to erm propose some purchase [Emmy:] Yes but should first Celia report on the admin. [speaker004:] Well erm [Emmy:] And let me just say one thing, before Celia talks about the admin course and that is [speaker004:] Not a lot to say really [Emmy:] Let me but let me just say one thing. I really want you to know what a fantastic job Celia's done. That admin course is fantastic, a re er you know I was in this r building yesterday, and I can tell you, the attendance is good I mean they have to have a real reason before they don't come. Their faces change, they're gaining so much, they're contributing. The way they react. We've got one chap who's autistic can you imagine, and he takes part. We have another chap who's just joined who is so shy, I mean Desmond knows him, and he's contributing and sitting there and typing. I as a result of that exam, unless you know the scene you don't know what they have achieved. Er er and that they sit two hours doing e and exam you know for somebody who can watch at all. Because their concentration is so bad. It's been wonderful and it is a lot of we have got two super teachers, that they are enthused by Celia. And Celia comes and she's cheerful and she does the admin with them, she organizes it and I just personally I'm just so grateful the best thing which has happened to me. And I I really want officially to thank Celia for what she's done. [speaker004:] That's nice of you. It it's a group effort as most things are here and er Pat will realize for all the volunteers that come in. Can I just say Margaret started and she's going to be brilliant. She fits in so well. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Erm she's doing numeracy power with them at the moment before she gets on to the because I believe she's got to sort out some programs for as yet. And sort out the computers but the thing is she may be able to get some more up to date computers. [speaker009:] Well strange enough rang me up [speaker004:] Oh really? [speaker009:] last week or the week before, who works at Rowntrees [Emmy:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] got this erm phone call. We actually haven't got any erm machines now because all the ones [speaker004:] I didn't know they were coming from She never said she sai just said I'm just holding out for some [speaker009:] Oh well her husband works in the [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker009:] ring me up and asking I understand you Anyway to cut a long story short, he was basically saying well do you know of any computers? And I said, well we've already asked before and the ones that we got were the ones that were thrown out. Any other ones, I've already put in a request through Peter, and as and when they become available, they will be given out. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker009:] Erm but there aren't any specific ones that I'm aware anyway that er [speaker004:] And those were the ones that Margaret was after. Oh well that's now we know. Er well she can work on these but she just thought if we could get some more up to date ones. [speaker009:] Mm. [speaker004:] Erm sh because apparently if they do go in an office, they'll find these are far slower than anything else they would ever work on, [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker004:] in any other office now. The thing is they are slow, you've you've got to remember to wait and you you know you [speaker009:] Yeah I mean, they're upgrading all of the machines at work but what they're doing is instead of throwing them out, those who don't use P Cs that often are being given the slower machines and those that as part of their job function, they need something much faster have been given the the newer machines. So unfortunately there isn't a a scrapheap of redundant P Cs [speaker004:] Well I mean in a way it would be nice to have one more new one [Emmy:] Which possibly [speaker004:] if funding here'll run to it. Because when Margaret gets going we'll have the good on in the office which super but it would be rather nice to have another one. [Emmy:] Which er can I possibly carry on from there and if you we have to talk about. Now as far as they know their money is coming. Er we have sent them you know a as you've said, just sent the letter back. We haven't heard since then. Er Zain has tried to ring, I have tried to ring, we have had no you know, we never got the person in. I think it'll all go ahead and we'll get the money but meanwhile before we knew about, we did do a lot of fund raising and we got some money in er I suppose something like a thousand pounds. And we've written back that we might get money from but can we use it for I E buying chairs and other things or for the general welfare. And they've said yes we can keep the money. And I would like... to buy two chairs for the favour room, you know chairs to sit on cos at the moment we have to always go and get them from the er cracker room. And so you know we just need to chairs up there. The other thing is that the cars in the yard have been bre broken into. And that you know, is worrying me. I mean our building wasn't touched but I I somehow always thought they wouldn't come there because they were so trapped, but they did and they spent quite a lot of time trying to get those cars going. [speaker009:] When when when did this happen? [Emmy:] Over the weekend. [speaker009:] This weekend [speaker004:] Really. [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker005:] Yes. [Emmy:] And it worried me to that extent that I almost went without your okay and rang up Terry and said, please fix those blinds, because we have got blinds which cost almost two hundred pounds or something and or a hundred and nineteen pounds, and it seems they can't fix them. It seems I keep running them under Tom's nose [speaker004:] Well what are they for then are they [Emmy:] They are these plastic blinds and they need cuttin cutting at the side. [speaker009:] They're just venetian [Emmy:] And and also I mean I don't want a zigzag and I really recommend we get somebody for Well I don't want to Tom to cut the sides like that with scissors you know, it has to be neat. And I'm recommending that we get er Terry to fix them. Also we do need a shelf you know in the office, Wendy has a shelf above her at the side, above and we really need another shelf underneath to store things. Erm and I was thinking or Desmond was thinking of a bell in your [speaker005:] Internal bell just to frighten them off. Because otherwise they could ba Well well once they get in here [speaker004:] Yes yes well you mean not an actual alarm. [speaker005:] They're home and dry. They'd just smash the whole place up. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] But a bell [speaker008:] where you're talking about an alarm. [speaker005:] Oh no not an alarm it's it's be too expensive, no just an internal bell to frighten the hell out of them. [Emmy:] And I think Terry would [speaker005:] It wouldn't it wouldn't interfere with the neighbours. [speaker009:] So what do you mean by a bell, trying to visualize what you mean [speaker005:] Yes. Well like I mean we all know what a bell is, a bell which is set off by by a human body coming in. [Emmy:] By the lock if possible. [speaker009:] Oh oh it's like on the front door. Every time somebody walked in. [Emmy:] or the best thing is they [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] What happens if she does it on a weekend, will we just have a key? [Emmy:] Well hopefully with the key because otherwise [speaker006:] Yes. [Emmy:] the people can't get themselves in. [speaker006:] Exactly [speaker005:] I would think [Emmy:] The front door key. If you open the front door [speaker005:] The front door key, close it and then and then resets it. And I take it it would have to be infrared. You'd have to have a sensor going down the corridor and one in the back because they'd come in the back, they wouldn't come through the [speaker006:] Yes that's right I just can't think how you'd [Emmy:] Erm we have an idea about that. Erm we have a burglar alarm. [speaker006:] Well it's fine as long as you actually tell people. Everybody who had a key I mean if there was a number to or something to do they have to know. [Emmy:] Yes but but er can you just [speaker005:] There's nothing to key in [Emmy:] switch that off a minute. Can you just switch the machine off. Erm [break in recording] [speaker004:] er if it's in the hall er we've got it in our hall and you just plug in and set it on and then if anybody opens a window, the alarm bell goes off. It just and it just switches off you know, [speaker005:] It's a bit too sophisticated for here. Every window to be wired up. [speaker004:] Oh no you don't wire anything up. It's just plugged in. [speaker005:] I thought you I thought you said if you opened the window. [speaker004:] Yes but it isn't from that. Erm it's just a change in erm atmosphere in the house. [speaker006:] But not the front door [speaker005:] No well that's infra red really. [speaker006:] What about the door. [speaker004:] Er well it does it's not connected to anything. All it is it's plugged in in in the hall and it is just a box a little box about this big and we just er it's just worked on the different just a movement of air, really that's all it is. Therefore once you everything settles and you switch it on at night or in the day, anytime, as soon as somebody opens the door, the bell will go off. It's not wired to anything, that's why we [speaker006:] Well how do you stop I mean how do you put it off though when you somebody [speaker004:] Well you just switch it it's a switch on the top. [Emmy:] But you see it doesn't help us because anybody getting in who knows about the box [speaker006:] Will just switch it off. [Emmy:] Gets in and switches it off. It has to be connected with the front door key. That you need the front door key. Because goes for the key [speaker007:] Ah but wait a se oh because they wouldn't have the key [speaker004:] What about a pad under the front under both mats at the [Emmy:] Yeah but again people who aren't here Too many people would know that it [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] But again we can go on forever. Can I would you give me permission to. [speaker005:] But do make it simple [Emmy:] Simple [speaker005:] Because you could soon run into five or six hundred quid. [Emmy:] I know I know. [speaker007:] And you mustn't have outside bells, mustn't have outside bells here because you'd you'd get so much opposition from those people [Emmy:] Because they go off at everything. [speaker007:] Yeah it wants to be just enough inside here that it frightens them. [Emmy:] I I agree. And I say let's get Terry Wilson to do it because you know he's on the [speaker005:] No i well it's Oh he has an electrician? [Emmy:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Oh well he most probably [Emmy:] And it's three little jobs and let him do it. get costings [speaker009:] Do you a do you know exactly what it's going to cost you? [speaker006:] You'll just have to get them to give you a quote. [Emmy:] But I am so worried now that I really would say, okay I'll discuss it with Zain but let's not wait until the committee meeting, next committee meeting, let's do it as soon as we can. [speaker005:] And and also I think now now that that's happened, I don't think it'll be long before there'll be another. [Emmy:] No. [speaker004:] Is everything insured? [Emmy:] Everything's insured but just thing the mess they could make. [speaker008:] it's the vandalism. [Emmy:] You know. [speaker004:] the computers [Emmy:] They are insured [speaker009:] They're all co [Emmy:] I don't think the cheap ones are? Our good one is. [speaker009:] I though we'd specified that [Emmy:] Maybe we have yes. [speaker009:] But we need to check [Emmy:] Well I mean you have to get them it's it's the little money you would get for those you'd have a job finding I mean everything would be in a mess. I mean you want to avoid [speaker008:] Don't forget Emmy, do have it at the back. It's the office and and it's those two rear [Emmy:] Oh I know I know [speaker008:] rooms. [Emmy:] Well I will ask you when the time comes. Now I'm just thinking, so we got a thousand pounds here, I would like to spend this money. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] But what is worrying me is is talking about a specific period, at the moment I hope you realize that the committee is paying all the admin costs in the hope that we are getting the money from. I mean we we had a definite offer and it's all paid much later, that the money is coming and then the committee will get the money back. Er And nothing should happen but we haven't heard, but also after that date we are high and dry again so I would quite like to keep as much in the kitty from the money we've raised, for the admin course you know, the future of the admin course, as possible. At the same time, this needs spending. [speaker009:] Where has this thousand pounds come from? [Emmy:] We have applied to General Accident, to erm oh oh oh a few people [speaker009:] Yeah. [Emmy:] I don't know the exact figure, a thousand pounds is r it's round about that. [speaker009:] And it wasn't earmarked for any specific items? [Emmy:] It was earmarked for the admin course, we asked will you fund a student for the admin course. And then we wrote back to them and said we are very likely getting funding from, in which case can we use your money for other purposes er Well one reason specifically said chairs. [speaker004:] Erm ta we need tables more than chairs. In there they can't get their legs under those tables. [Emmy:] Oh that is so true. [speaker004:] The the tables are very erm old fashioned wooden ones and sort of you know how you get your legs under sort of well like a bottom lip. And that really it's all the chairs are good office chairs in there, the tables are bad. [Emmy:] Right. Er can you Well hopefully in the minutes I need to can somebody make a note, we have to fund raise for that. Erm we need tables, I mean chaps like like Mike and Roger with their big legs they just can't under them. [speaker004:] They just can't get their knees in. [Emmy:] And we have to do that, we must get tables. [speaker008:] Rowntrees must have hundreds of tables. [speaker004:] the sort of metal tables that have just got the four legs [speaker008:] I would try there. [Emmy:] to get the proper computer tables sorted out. [speaker004:] Except if you got computer tables, it just seats one computer on it, don't forget we have we we're really better with bench tables like that, then we can put either typewriters [Emmy:] anyhow we can go into that. [speaker009:] These are these are tables we got from somewhere [speaker008:] Oh I wouldn't mind loaning out. [Emmy:] No no no. [speaker004:] we needs to look I mean [Emmy:] No. [speaker004:] just two like that, metal tables, but metal with nothing underneath. [Emmy:] But Celia, let us look at at tables because I saw some which can take typewriters and computers. And there was a track, electric track and all that. I think er it's it's Desmond, why I say no to that, the we Tom and I have measured it out and Celia. It's very tight to get in what we need to get in and we have to buy just the right tables. So I think for the time being, if you allow us, we will find out which tables we want and then we will fund raise for them and get the money for them, okay. [speaker004:] We we we also Sally and I were talking about this last week, we said often you know you get you can get bankrupt stock [Emmy:] Oh you do Now we need an optimistic accountant, can somebody look out for an optimistic accountant [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] There isn't such a thing. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] No no but Celia, Ruby Ruby told me her husband has to do with bankrupt office stock [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] remind me okay. There's some possibility there. No [speaker009:] So wh are you saying that all this stuff you want for the admin course, you're gonna raise money separately or do you want to [speaker004:] Well we're just I'm just we might have to ask for some money for it. [Emmy:] No the money I want to spend, I've partly already written back and said, can I use this money as we don't need it can I buy chairs, I was specific. Cos that was a big amount, and they said yes. And others, there's money here which we got for the admin course which which can spend. All the Christmas Fair money. But I think this is the big thing we want to fund raise for. And we would very likely get it. I know who's going to give it us. we'll get it. [speaker004:] We we need we need [Emmy:] Yeah. The other thing is, you know Noel came, they had some money, what do you want, actually I could ask them because he also said things. We must make a list but [speaker004:] A long one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] The point is [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] that this will happen, people will come to us occasionally and say, do you need money for what specific and I think, as a committee we must have a future, a list for the future of things we might want and also of ideas we have. Like now luckily I had these two ideas running in my head anyhow. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] Do you know, but you have to be so quick and you have to be precise and you must know that that's what you want. So I think we should learn to plan to have a plan a future plan. Sort of things we can tick off as we need them. [speaker009:] But didn't we do this [speaker006:] So that when comes up we've always got an answer. [speaker009:] Well no I mean, two years ago when we did this, we actually had a list of things that you identified [Emmy:] Yes. [speaker009:] you wanted. I think perhaps we need to do that as part of the planning for each year's budget. I mean I I know in that budget thing that we put together towards the end of last year, we didn't really look at it [Emmy:] Yeah well we did actually. Both those ideas now said were in our future targets. [speaker009:] No no no I'm talking about I'm talking about bits and pieces for the place, we did [Emmy:] Yeah bits and pieces. Yeah. Yeah. [speaker009:] set aside an amount of money or identified that we would need to spend an amount of money and perhaps we need to do that sooner. [Emmy:] Yeah we have to we shall do that quite soon I think. And if I may just, that's the last thing I need to say is the Christmas Fair dates somehow were muddled up and somebody put the wrong dates to the day, it's Wednesday the sixteenth and Thursday the seventeenth. Okay [speaker008:] Sixteenth and seventeenth. [speaker006:] Can you just give me the name of the person who has the [Emmy:] Oh. [speaker006:] ? [Emmy:] Mr.... [speaker009:] Where is [Emmy:] The. [speaker004:] Opposite,. [Emmy:] I'm leaving all my mess here because I'm coming back after my meeting. Is there anything else erm... you know Zain which we should do or pass on? [speaker009:] Erm no. Well we're not having much joy with these people from I mean I've rung them about four times in the last er week. The lady who I was trying to get hold of who's actually got the contract that er we want amended, for some reason I. I did try, I was gonna try before I came here but I was. So I'll try again but I think you're gonna have to telephone Erm not telephone, write to Mr directly. We're not you know we're not getting anywhere. [speaker004:] It's not moving very quickly is it. [Emmy:] No. [speaker006:] that's a long time since they said we could have it. [Emmy:] Oh well it was er this committee meeting, er when you were away. [speaker006:] Before Christmas. [speaker008:] No no er the money had been sanctioned long long time November, it was October. [Emmy:] Ah ah it was but it was sanctioned but we had to sign a contract with them. [speaker009:] Yeah okay. And then the solicitor asked us to advised us to have certain things amended and Mr had no problem when I told him over the telephone, he just said send it back and we'll just amend it. Well it sounded so simple when he said it over the telephone about two months ago. But [Emmy:] And somebody has been er is dealing with it. [speaker009:] Well they have a contracts department that deals with all these these are funding issues. And I presume it's just sitting on someone's desk which is still being processed. [speaker006:] It'll be a nice lump sum when we get it won't it. [Emmy:] Yeah but as I say, don't forget we're spending it already. Erm [speaker009:] Right is that is that all? [Emmy:] Is that all Right, I've put that here because I'm coming back you see. [speaker006:] When are we meeting again? [Emmy:] Oh yeah, good question. [speaker009:] Another six weeks. [speaker005:] When is that? [speaker009:] of March. [speaker005:] Oh sh [Emmy:] And thank you so much everybody and mainly for putting up with me. [speaker005:] Cos you're going away in March aren't you? To Germany? [Emmy:] I just hope Virginia doesn't get Ah yes, I'm going to Germany. You could have one committee meeting without me then. [speaker006:] We'd have to have another one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] tonight. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] [counting in german].... Yes I leave on the eleventh of March so can we have it on the eight of March? Is that okay. [speaker009:] because I've got now Wednesdays [speaker004:] That's a Tuesday the eighth isn't it. [Emmy:] Oh no Wednesday the ninth, sorry I got wrong. Well yes you can [speaker009:] I I will [speaker008:] Zain can't do it on a Wednesday any more. [speaker009:] No there will be Wednesdays now that I won't be able to come at all. [speaker008:] Yeah. You can't come on a Wednesday. [Emmy:] Which day can you come? [speaker008:] No it's it works every two weeks, I have to check it doesn't fall into that [Emmy:] otherwise we have it a week.... Yeah.... Well thank you so much. Thank you. I know it's a dreadful uphill struggle with us but... I it ca it just is that hard. [speaker004:] Mm. [Emmy:] You know. [speaker006:] It's probably going to get harder. [Emmy:] I'm telling you we work hard, I know we can get better organized, but we do work very hard and we have to work on so many fronts. [speaker005:] Well you're running a full blown business with erm [Emmy:] Not only is [speaker005:] and and a rehabilitation centre. You know and it's erm [Emmy:] And the fund raising, all the fund raising. [speaker005:] And a college so no wonder it's hard. [Emmy:] Yes. It's very very hard. [speaker006:] Switch this off shall I. [speaker009:] It's still going round. [Emmy:] Well I have to dash [recording ends]

[Dr Rob Fletcher:] need to see where you've got to and [Aaron Turner:] Well... the software came off the tape without any any problems wha whatsoever. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Good. [Aaron Turner:] And I copied it over It all compiled first time. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] E even the Pascal? [Aaron Turner:] Even the Pascal. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] That's interesting cos I mean it is a sort of a variant [Aaron Turner:] Luckily we have the er compiler for that. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] We have that particular compiler, that was [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] good then. [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] I I thought you might in fact but I mean when it was first taken we first looked at the tape, people in there weren't sure so Oh that's good news oh that helps a lot because they've tried The original Moneytalk was developed on VAX V M S [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] so that's why you see a lot of talk about VAX V M S around mailboxes and funny things like that which are [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] which are sort of er e Well a mailbox is a very crude inter process communication technique used on VAXes. But I mean, I don't think you need to worry about that cos I think got round that when they when they converted up to. Should be okay. Yeah so that all compiled up so what some bits don't work? [Aaron Turner:] Erm there we there was a problem with the erm lexicon lexicon [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. [Aaron Turner:] That just core dumped. But I was able to transfer it onto a separate system and compile that and produce the lexicon there. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] So why did that core dump on on [Aaron Turner:] I have no idea. I... look looked through it, couldn't actually see anything obviously wrong with it. I compiled it onto another system which has far better de debugging tools and [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah? [Aaron Turner:] It didn't core dump. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] But that that that sudden? [Aaron Turner:] Well Hewlett Hewlett Packard. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Oh you did one on the H P. Which one was the one that worked? [Aaron Turner:] The one on the H P. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] The H P worked better. [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. But it doesn't wor do it doesn't So it works on the H P but not on the Sun is that right? [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. So I created the lexicon [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right okay. [Aaron Turner:] on the H the H P and copied that back [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah sure. [Aaron Turner:] and... the first stage which is the for formatting stage [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Mhm. [Aaron Turner:] works. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. [Aaron Turner:] As far as I can tell, the other stages also seem to work, [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. [Aaron Turner:] but there is a problem with the the second stage which decomposes the [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right [Aaron Turner:] formatted input. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. [Aaron Turner:] Er into parts of parts of speech. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Mhm. [Aaron Turner:] If I tried to give it more than one one word at a time it falls over and core dumps. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. [Aaron Turner:] With one word it's unable to determine what what part of speech it is. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] This is not unreasonable. [LAUGHTER] [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah. [Aaron Turner:] And... I've been been through er th the debugging tools. Pascal on on the main system. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah. [Aaron Turner:] And slowly up uphill struggle to actually [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Have you managed to locate it at al Not been able to locate where it actually [Aaron Turner:] Erm I've been able to trace back it's probably in a procedure called fetch page. That seemed to be causing [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Well is that fetching I mean is that a is that the routine that's picking information back from the lexicon or something? [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. I was wondering I mean... there may possibly be differences between I mean there was the format that speech generate of the H P and the format that the Sun would use. [Aaron Turner:] Mm. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Er now I would think that the lexicon itself is just a w a whacking great look up table yes? [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right. Er I would check things like, signed and unsigned bytes. That's the that is the first problem you might find. Have you checked that at all? So you might find that if you do a thing on the H P you may find that what is being what's happening is that it it it's creating... the wrong size addressings in the look up table because either it's using you know, er signed and it's su assuming unsigned byte or something. So you've got the data ranges incorrect, that sort of thing. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Er you want to check that specification. That's quite likely where it's going to be going wrong. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] That I I've seen that before between erm VAX systems and Silicon Graphics systems. I also I mean Sun to Silicon Graphics, sometimes you need to make s see what the compiler option is in fact. You may find the default compiler option for the H P is different to the default compiler option to handle signed and unsigned integers or signed and unsigned bytes, may be different. It may well be the case. Er now these are you know is the lexicon a Pascal module or a... C module? [Aaron Turner:] It's a C module. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] C right, so I would I I would almost would think [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] it's a sign problem in that it's not doing the look up properly. These things are hideous to sort out I know. Erm w I mean where they don't work when somebody offers code and they don't work, there's not [LAUGHTER] a lot you can do other than sort of make some informed guesses as to what might be going wrong. Because at the end of the day I mean they're building up a a set of rules. practically you've got like a rule compiler. I mean the the later stages of the system had things like rule compilers and quite complex things which allowed you a more dynamic interaction with the system so you could actually build rules in and then some rules then erm allowed you to... shall we say,... partition out certain parts of speech. You found sometimes that other rules weren't required because that rule new rule that you'd finally developed encompassed other classes of events. You know so so the idea was having a rule compiler system which so you could actively refine it. You know the rules got more complex but in but in terms of actual processing power, the amount of look up required went down. One of the reasons for big look up tables is that the prototype system. Eventually the whole lot would be blown into ROMS. In a box. [LAUGHTER]. Well in fact it was. And still can ma buy cards for a P C. But I'm not sure whether that would be in of interest at all to Ian anyway. [Aaron Turner:] That might might [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yes you can actually buy a card for a P C. And all you do is you feed it erm text and it'll speak it. [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Albeit in an American voice. [Aaron Turner:] Is erm Ian definitely wants wants new suns. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yes I know. [Aaron Turner:] being targeted at students. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah I mean the would be very nice if you could get it to go cos it is it is quite acceptable speech. Albeit American. [LAUGHTER] American English. Which is different of course. So you don't get dog, you get dog. [LAUGHTER]. D A W G. [LAUGHTER]. Er but I think people can live with that understand sort of Americanisms now. Erm that that's I think the main thing you want to look at there. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Er what about the synthesis stage, do you know whether that works or not? Does it generate waveforms? [Aaron Turner:] It's been a bit Well it's it's been been a bit difficult to test because with the sort of ready the read-me files. Very very minimal so I haven't noticed [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Were there any erm already er sort of the intermediate files? Things like er erm s synthesizer files. [Aaron Turner:] Nothing. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] parameter file. Er just wondering whether [Aaron Turner:] There is apparen apparently book books details of of course it's out at the moment. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Mm. [Aaron Turner:] I could search round for papers on it. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] There's not there's not a lot on because n Well I mean,w the reason why there's not a huge amount published is because er Digital bought the rights to DECTalk. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] For something like six million dollars. And so at that point, nothing very much was published. No not in the public domain anyway. I mean there are plenty of internal reports at M I T and at DEC but you certainly can't get them. I have seen a paper been involved with M I T themselves. Er do you know what the er what a the input file would look like to the synthesizer phase? [Aaron Turner:] It gives a very sketchy idea in the read-me files however it also [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Do you know how many control parameters there are for instance? Is it the twenty one or is it the sixty or forty eight [Aaron Turner:] Without looking through the source file I wouldn't be able to tell. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Because erm I do have a variation er a version of the that particular synthesizer which is a class seventy nine synthesizer. And I may well have some input files which you could u test with. You need to find out though what version that that is. It may well be well the one that was out in the public in the public domain. One that was published in... the Journal the American Society for Acoustical Research. J A S A, J A S A. [Aaron Turner:] J S? [Dr Rob Fletcher:] J A S A. Journal of the American Acoustical Society.... Journal of the American Society for Acoustics, something like that anyway. That that that the original class seventy nine synthesizer was published, the source code. And it was originally in FORTRAN source so I don't know whether is it still in FORTRAN source? [Aaron Turner:] Erm no it's Pascal now. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Is it Pascal source now. Yeah n what you need to do is if you can look up the what the input parameters h how many input parameters there are, and if there are... if if it's basically a batch of twenty one parameters, er I can probably I've probably got the source code for them. Er I mean the input files. It depends whether they're ASCII input or whether they're binary input format. I would put money on them being what are called K P R [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Er K P R format which is parameter file. Er P R for parameter. [LAUGHTER]. parameter file and that is actually effectively a a sixteen bit integer encoded file. And in fact I can probably get you some of those as well. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Okay. Er we moved over to using ASCII so that we could actually hand edit them [LAUGHTER] and and look at them. But this is about four or five years ago so I mean it's n we've moved on a lot since then. But certainly we can probably find some stuff for er to help test. But did you get er but does the pipeline build for instance? I mean there's a program that builds the pipeline. [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] And that all builds? Right well that's wonderful, I mean that's really good news really, [Aaron Turner:] Mm. Mm. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] You see cos a again it was probably in the early days, running on P D P Elevens. [Aaron Turner:] Right. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Right so you've got to think P D P Eleven because it's fairly old stuff now. And I mean Unix in those d in the early days was P D P Eleven based. And then it moved over to sort of VAXes as well. Er but I think could be could be the backspace. Cos it's using B er B S D isn't it or J S D stuff so. Could be could well could have been backspace but still there'd still be Eleven stuff around I would have thought. Er you'd probably find that in the P D P Eleven around the place. [LAUGHTER].. And if it is then they're probably sixteen bit integer encoded files for the synthesizer phase. The other thing is that the output frequency is likely to be eight kilohertz or ten kilohertz. Er you need to think about that. But again, depending on your hardware you may the output phase hardware, you might need to alter some things in the synthesizer to change it to the from eight to ten to twelve to sixteen bit data. Again I I modified the seventy nine and rewritten the seventy nine I've had also the the later version of the synthesizer to handle different bit-width so it's not a problem. And I know how to do that. There's not a lot about to change. You know you tend to find there are a couple of fiddle factors around actually [LAUGHTER]. And magic numbers like multiplying the width of the byte by sixteen point O two five or something [LAUGHTER].. You m is it really well is it very well commented at all? [Aaron Turner:] It's fairly well commented. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah cos I I think you'll find there are various comments like you know, let's say you know, move the the data into the highest signi er the most significant bits of the word and this sort of stuff. You know where they and they just multiplying by number rather than doing bit shifts [LAUGHTER]. So So I mean you'll you'll find I mean, it's not that bad. Right I well if you can't get the lexicon going it's got a problem of course.. If it was on a P D P Eleven then... the addressing would only be a matter of si sixteen bit as well. In the tables. So again you might find that that you're generating the wrong type of integer number. I mean between your two machines. And also possibly with what it puts as a co Was it expect You know have a read of the code [Aaron Turner:] Yeah. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] a little bit more of the code, just to find out you know, what size integers it's using. And I think that's probably where your pro the problems would be. [Aaron Turner:] Mm yes yes. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Mm sure. [Aaron Turner:] That sounds likely. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] You know I've seen those sorts of problems before. Trying to think what else there is. Er that's about what there is well there's nothing to look at. At this stage anyway, then we need to have a another think. A little bit of detective work I think [LAUGHTER] to try and find out. I mean you could even write some fairly simple test programs in fact. [Aaron Turner:] Mm. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] That do a little bit of you know, very simple table look up. Or build a table. Does the l does the lexicon generate you the C source code? Like a a C look up table? Or does it generate a file? [Aaron Turner:] It generates a large well [Dr Rob Fletcher:] A large C large C structure. Or a just a large table or a large array. [Aaron Turner:] Erm... g erm it just gen gen generates a large large. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] You see cos I know that some of the phases you find that... Does it genera you see cos some some of the programs generate programs. [LAUGHTER] In the in the later versions certainly. But you you know you generate some of the C source or assembler source which you then compile. No I assume that your file is not one of those. [Aaron Turner:] No. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] No okay. S Yeah I wo I would basically put money on it being a problem with the the addressing. And it's gonna be either what a a a short it is or what a. [LAUGHTER]. Yeah I I if there's anything else you want to know I mean I think that's quite a good start [Aaron Turner:] Erm yeah I'll er [Dr Rob Fletcher:] one of those problems anyway. [Aaron Turner:] I'll go through that [Dr Rob Fletcher:] I I I would think I can't really see it being much else, I mean it compiles up. That's what it's most likely to be I think. [LAUGHTER] Okay. If there's anything else you want to know? [LAUGHTER] [Aaron Turner:] . [Dr Rob Fletcher:] I'm generally around so you know. Give me a shout. Don't lose your bit of paper. [Aaron Turner:] Okay. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] Yeah that's fine. [Aaron Turner:] Thank you very much. [Dr Rob Fletcher:] It's no problem. [recording ends]

[Mr E Barnett:] Well are we ready to go? I feel a bit like Henry the fifth, once more into the breach. Er... resumed... on er we actually got to number eight this morning didn't we? Can I can I ask er contributions, short and sharp. Please so we can finish at a reasonable hour. Otherwise we shall be having conflicts with the amateur dramatics society. So we go into and I'm r reading the schedule as submitted by Mr, eight, little a, another fact is regional, sub- regional policies and if you will recall we Council's wording was, be consistent with regional and sub- regional policies. Now how many of the sectors as again as defined ones which we've agreed we will examine, er would fit or would be con would be consistent with regional, sub-regional policies or would possibly cause conflict with those if er they were the receiving the receiving area for a new settlement? Or do you take the assessment which Mr has done which er indicates that they are all of equal er merit or rank? Mr. [Mr R Girt:] Dave, Leeds City Council. You've heard me often already chairman on this point. I don't think I need to repeat Leeds view about the implications for regeneration in inner Leeds and West Yorkshire. [Mr E Barnett:] Er yes, but be precise about the sectors Mr. Which are the sectors where you feel, if you had a new settlement, er there would be potential er problems if that's the right word, for the implementation of your regeneration policies in Leeds. [Mr R Girt:] Dave, Leeds City Council. The sectors of particular concern to Leeds are in particular, the A sixty four corridor, south west sector and depending on location, the A fifty nine corridor may have implications. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. So that's Selby west and possibly Harrogate. Is that it? [Mr R Girt:] That's correct chairman. That's correct chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Any anyone else want to make a point on this? Good can we move on to the next one? Infrastructure. Do you want t well yes, County Council criteria... was to be acceptable in respect of the provisions of essential infrastructure, particularly surface water and foul drainage and water supply. But it was agreed was it not that er... there ought to be coupled with that, it seems appropriate when you're talking about water supplies. Er avoid the flood plain and be acceptable in the context of surface water drainage. In other words er would be would not cause problems or ra raise objection from the N R A because it would conflict with their responsibilities. Erm any of the sectors that have been identified... erm... give cause for concern on that score? No. Y you were first on the draw Mr. [Mr Michael Courcier:] Michael. Sir it dealing with drainage matters, I think there's general agreement from Yorkshire Water that the preference is the new settlement should drain should should either g be within I think I I put it detailed figures in my in my statement. I think it's three miles from the er Naburn works or going to the east York main link sewer. That would mean you would be looking at something on the A sixty four north or happily for Mr, the A sixty four south or the A nineteen south. The A nineteen north, the A fifty nine and B one s three six three would be less favoured for those reasons. As brief as I can be sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Very succinct. Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Without commenting on the or any sector I think the conclusions on these three elements, that's surface water, foul drainage and er water supply, may be different in respect of each sector. It's not it's not as straightforward, the conclusions in respect of one may not necessarily apply in respect of the other. [Mr E Barnett:] Well. [Mr Peter Davies:] And I don't know the answer. I I suspect neither at the moment do the er do the National Rivers Authority or or or the water authority. [Mr E Barnett:] I know there may be variation in degree as it were, according to which particular aspect of infrastructure you're looking at. But is there likely to be anything which would be absolutely overriding? Or which would lead on to conclude that one sector is preferable to another. What you're saying is there's a shortage of information. [Mr Peter Davies:] At the moment I think there is yes. A definitive statement. [Mr E Barnett:] What about the point which Mr raised, made? [Mr Peter Davies:] Well I wouldn't want to comment on that because I don't have the information to er to to set against anything Mr. is to is to discuss the detail of the issues in respect of those three those three elements. [Mr E Barnett:] Would you like to ex Sorry Mr, would you like to expand on that last point? I mean do you want to go through each one. [Mr Peter Davies:] No! The County Council's position is it doesn't feel able at the moment to express a definitive view on these three elements in respect of er of either sector. Of any of the sectors that in er. [Mr E Barnett:] You haven't done any of these exercises? [Mr Peter Davies:] Not in detail no. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, do you want to? [Mr Michael Courcier:] Yes sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Just [Mr Michael Courcier:] Michael. Sir you'll have seen the County Planning Officer's own report on these matters and you'll have seen exactly the same comments which I've made contained in that report. The County have done initial work on this and come to exactly the same conclusions which we have.... [Mr E Barnett:] .... Agricultural land quality.... Any sector which is less favoured or more favoured as a result of a... shall I say a generalized overview on agricultural land quality?... Miss. [Miss Fiona Firth:] Fiona,. Er the County Council's own document January ninety two actually sets out erm the various regions around the around the York area and the general g grades of agricultural quality. They've pointed out that the area to the south and the west is generally much higher agricultural land than elsewhere.... [Mr E Barnett:] Are you commending us to look at that then? [Miss Fiona Firth:] Sorry am I? [Mr E Barnett:] Are you commending us to look at that and inwardly [Miss Fiona Firth:] Yes I am. Well it it won't have changed so [Mr E Barnett:] inwardly digest. [Miss Fiona Firth:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Paul, Partnership. Er the only point I wish to make is that there is considerable variability we have found in the grading erm and the Ministry of Agriculture maps can not be relied upon for relatively small er or larger areas. And erm in that respect I believe er that this particular factor as all of the other factors under er item eight, er it requires really site specific investigation. [Mr E Barnett:] Well we shall Than thank you Mr. We shall refresh our memories on the information already supplied to us. Mr. [Mr Michael Courcier:] Michael. Sir, we are obviously dealing here with a new settlement of ve very extensive land take, I think that the there are certainly been quite a There's been a lot of detailed work done by the various erm protagonists around around the table today about agricultural land quality. I think it is fair to say that erm all the detailed surveys which have been taken have tended to support the findings from the one to fifty thousand map in so far that the various developments proposed to the west and to the south have include quite large elements of grade two land, whereas the se proposals to the north a tend to be grade three land. And again one would te under P P G seven, one would tend to those localities.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, did you want to come back on that one? Or was it Thank you.... Can we move on then?... Archaeology and nature conservation. Erm... County Council wording had, avoid areas of archaeological nature conservation importance. Erm I take it Mr that that is what your... item heading actually encompasses does it? [Mr Paul Brighton:] It does sir yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Are there any sectors where... there are... for example triple S Is which are of er how shall I put it, strategic scale, that could influence er the location of a new settlement. I I I see from your nature conservation strategy document that you have got some sizable triple S Is er [Mr Peter Davies:] I [Mr E Barnett:] within within the area of search [Mr Peter Davies:] Mhm. [Mr E Barnett:] but for some reason some of them may well lie within the [Mr Peter Davies:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] in the flood plain for example. [Mr Peter Davies:] Yes I think [Mr E Barnett:] Do do any of those come into play? [Mr Peter Davies:] Erm I would think, by and large in practical terms erm they do not, I'm immediately thinking of the erm er on the Derwent. Erm some of which would be in the area of search but I think practically, for obviously drainage reasons, they wouldn't be a constraining factor. The other one that immediately comes to mind is er is is Strensall common but that of course is within the greenbelt erm anyway. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Peter Davies:] I wouldn't have thought er that that er on archaeology and nature conservation, which really is erm a matter of er detailed site consideration, that er it would be a fundamental matter in the er in the location of a new settlement. I don't know whether our colleagues would agree or not on that. So I wouldn't Yes I'd accept that probably er a tick in each probably would er would be a reasonable assumption. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. It's far too localized and site specific to [Mr Peter Davies:] It does tend to [Mr E Barnett:] actually come into play at the strategic level. [Mr Peter Davies:] Yes I think that's a reasonable er summary yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah yeah yeah. Even in spite of the advice given in P P G three? Yeah. Er moving on Pardon? Moving on then to freestanding form which in the expanded form would be, be freestanding and avoid coalescence with existing settlements. Now then [Mr Peter Davies:] chairman er Peter, North Yorkshire. I would have thought again that er that criteria could reasonably be e be expected to be accommodated with er within each of the sectors. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes I recall on Friday morning we had this discussion about the wording which you had in the er [Mr Peter Davies:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] in in in in H two, nine, be freestanding and well removed from. But I don't want to raise that one again. [Mr Peter Davies:] No. [Mr E Barnett:] Now then. Move on then to minerals considerations. Sorry sorry Mr, I moved too quickly for you. [Mr George Whip:] Er, Flaxton. [Mr E Barnett:] Are you going to produce your great white spots again as distinct from Mr [Mr George Whip:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] 's black spots? [Mr George Whip:] I'll I'll make brief reference to them. Erm the question of coalescence, freestanding form, is in my opinion of more importance in regard to some corridors th some sectors than others. I believe that in the evaluation of sectors that we're now engaged in, it is possible as a strategic exercise to exclude entirely number six, the A sixty four north eastern corridor, on coalescence questions. But I would first start with a slightly wider issue. Er namely the density of settlements. And I did a diagram which I think everybody has, showing broadly the the density as we have it. If one looks at that erm built area where we are now that looks perhaps like a heron on a perch, and looks immediately east of that, you have Strensall Common, most of which is a restricted area. And the outer boundary of the greenbelt proposed by the County Council, slightly closer in than the existing outer boundary at that point, is coterminous with the boundary of the grenade throwing range. Between it and the boundary of the Howardian Hills area of outstanding natural beauty at Foston Bridge, the distance is only three and a half kilometres, just over two miles, there is therefore a narrow corridor not designated either as greenbelt or A O N B, which naturally er comes under rather heavier pressure perhaps than er areas round it might. Therefore, in looking at this diagram, one needs to realize that to the southwest er and just east of er Strensall erm the area is filled up by greenbelt. There are in fact very few areas straddling the A sixty four north east than one needs to look at. There is perhaps one northeast of Flaxton Village, another south of it and another southeast of the A sixty four. Taking the last first, there are three villages which are so close together that with any allowance for coalescence, even the one kilometre which I believe was taken in the original look at this problem by the County Council, there would be no possibility of fitting in a settlement er of the size proposed. And here I ought to perhaps make it clear that the circles I provided on the sheet which was distributed, allow for a density of twenty houses per hectare. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr George Whip:] If one goes to the slightly higher figure, which would be more appropriate for inner suburban development, then instead of my cut out for the Land Ranger map, for one and a half square kilometres, one hundred and fifty hectares, one can take the new ten penny piece. That w that is exactly at twenty five, and that is allowing a doubling of the housing area to allow for all the other features that come within the new settlement. The er commercial, employment land, shopping, erm community facilities, infrastructure etcetera. I don't think that that would be likely to be argued against. If one comes to the are northeast of Flaxton, I believe that for the avoidance of coalescence, one ought in the case of a village which has a rather wide boundary conservation area, for historical reasons basically, one ought to take the coalescence distance from the edge of that conservation boundary. And that is shown in the appendix to the position statement put in by Flaxton. If one allows even the minimum that was contemplated by North Yorkshire, one finds that there is no room left in the triangle surrounded by the railway, the A sixty four and the conservation area of Flaxton. It is impossible. I commend that exercise to you but won't go into more detail about it now. To the south or southwest of Flaxton, a fairly similar problem arises. If one took the distance as only one kilometre and we regard that as absolutely insufficient for a village of the character of Flaxton, we would prefer one and a half miles or two point four kilometres as the minimum. But if one takes only one kilometre, again there is insufficient room for a settlement which would not be close up against the greenbelt boundary proposed by the County Council, and close up against the A sixty four. It is just impossible to fit it in. I cannot see any other potential locations for a new settlement straddling the A A sixty four corridor, in addition to the three I have just mentioned and I believe that on that basis, it would be reasonable from the strategic point of view, to exclude sector six. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm.... You've just introduced a new method of measurement for all planners Mr. But yes thank you I I do take the point. In other words, on this particular aspect, approach with caution sector six. Yes? [Mr George Whip:] Yes, I would go further than that but that is stating my view as at its minimum. Approach with caution, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Miss. [Miss Fiona Firth:] Fiona,. Sir, I'd like to bring your attention to erm a plan prepared by Partnership which is submitted as part of their evidence, which erm sets out for the south and southwest the er coalescence of existing settlements. First of all I'd like to point out that some of the existing settlements haven't actually been ringed, for example Acaster Selby. But it's obvious from a quick glance that that plan that in fact a number of those settlements are already coalescing in the form of a definition of a one kilometre cordon around the the village and there are actually very few areas outside of the greenbelt in that zone which could possibly accommodate a new settlement of the size we're contemplating, without causing coalescence. [D Whittaker:] That reference was to which sectors? [Miss Fiona Firth:] Well it's the south, southwest area. It it's actually probably south and south southwest. [Mr E Barnett:] It's Selby East and Selby West isn't it?... If I as I recall [Miss Fiona Firth:] Number two I think is the er [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Two primarily and possibly one as I as I as I remember [Miss Fiona Firth:] Yes. That's right. [Mr E Barnett:] the the plan which you produced Mr, it spans virtually the whole of the Selby District doesn't it? [Mr Paul Brighton:] Yes sir it does. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Yes.... Er Mr first and then then Mr. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] the revised criteria and and and as you've just read it out, I think for consistency with paragraph thirty three of P P G three, there needs to be the word unacceptable coalescence. And I think if you look at lessons such as the Cambridge situation, you can have distances of separation between a new village and surrounding settlements and it's as little as six hundred metres, depending on localized matters. And my view is that within the A sixty four corridor, north east, there is sufficient range of sites to be found that it should not be erm set to one side on this criterion. [Mr E Barnett:] I I must confess Mr I had some difficulty with the wording of P P G there when it says, unacceptable coalescence, er and trying to balance that against the expressed aim that this should be freestanding. And if it's freestanding then you can't have coalescence, acceptable or otherwise surely, can you. [Mr Christopher Timothy:] You might... There are certain new settlement proposals that have been put forward in other parts of the country which has been basically a bolt on to er an existing group of [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [D Whittaker:] Perhaps I could [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Which might be acceptable. [D Whittaker:] seek some clarification as to the way in which the County Council defines a settlement.... [Mr E Barnett:] When is a settlement not a settlement? [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] No no no no no no. Yes I sorry I mean there may be a cutoff point may there mayn't there. Mr. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Thank you sir. Just on a point of er clarification, the villages or settlements I should say, that I've indicated on the er plan which is included within my statement, er is actually derived from the Selby rural areas local plan, which defines settlements and I believe the County Council have used a similar erm listing of erm settlements within that those two sectors for their own exercise when they looked at this particular subject er criteria. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.... Mr. [Mr Michael Courcier:] Michael [clears throat] Michael, very briefly, we my my clients have two settlements new two ne new settlements proposed along the A sixty four corridor. Both have been designed to meet fully the requirements a set out by the County Council and we're quite happy, we can actually meet that requirement of being one kilometre from Flaxton, in fact we greatly exceed that distance, despite and that is a on the design of a larger new settlement than fourteen hundred dwellings. So as a matter of fact we can we can actually fulfil their requirement. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Are you to hazard a guess about when is a settlement not a settlement? [Mr Peter Davies:] No I'm not at the moment. Erm [LAUGHTER] erm can I just say, just on the on the basis of Mr 's map erm I think that proves the point that er that I suggested at the outset of the discussion erm on this issue, that if you look at the distribution of settlements there outside the greenbelt, there's nothing there that suggests that any of the particular sectors ought to be discounted. Erm I think it's a reasonable starting point that there's a reasonably level playing field on the basis of er erm of of of that issue. And I wouldn't agree therefore with Mr or indeed with er Miss that er either sectors within that general framework erm should be discounted. [Mr E Barnett:] On the same basis, there are some sectors er which have less settlements than indeed som if any than others. [Mr Peter Davies:] Well I think that's perhaps a matter of slight degree it's again [Mr E Barnett:] So the ques the question then is wheth whether you would accord anything anything erm any weighting to that. [Mr Peter Davies:] Well no the issue is whether any sector is to be discounted because because of the distribution of settlements it would be on balance, difficult to find a location for a new settlement within that sector. I think that is the issue and on the basis of the distribution of settlements, er now there's nothing there to suggest to me that er there's anything other than the level playing field at the outset of perhaps of that exercise. [Mr E Barnett:] Fine thank you. Anybody else want to make any comment on that? Can we move on to minerals considerations? Erm and we come back to the County's wording which is, avoid conflict between mineral and non-mineral development. Erm and I have to say that er I mean if if if for example this was to Well assuming we had H two policy then wouldn't you expect to make some cross-reference here to your ei policy M eight in your approved structure plan? [Mr Peter Davies:] I think that erm yeah, as a matter of principle that wouldn't be erm untoward. You will notice in the structure plan as a whole there is very little cross-referencing between any of the policies in there. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes [Mr Peter Davies:] Er I as I recollect it, that was largely the view the the Secretary of State took when he when he approved the plan and indeed there is a relationship between most of the policies. And you need to look at the policies as a whole rather than individually. [Mr E Barnett:] That's right yes yeah. But people sometimes fall into the trap [Mr Peter Davies:] Yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] in looking at individual policies [Mr Peter Davies:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] or selecting those which [Mr Peter Davies:] At the exclusion of others yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. Anybody want to make any comment on this? Mr? [Mr Paul Brighton:] Thank you sir, Paul, Partnership. Mr submitted this morning a letter from British Coal, erm I just wanted to place on record the fact that erm this is no more than erm a reiteration of a a previous holding objection to my client's erm proposal for a new settlement within Selby District. I would like to say that there have been no negotiations with British Coal erm in relation to this objection as the application is currently in abeyance as it's obviously subject to a section fourteen direction, but I don't see anything in there erm which erm alters the the general conclusions er that I've put in my supplementary paper on this particular criterion. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Michael Courcier:] Mic Michael. Sir er sir the I think I would not for a moment argue that minerals considerations can be ove overriding in this matter. Clearly they they they should not be. However they do go into the balance. It's quite clear from the British Coal letter that there is extreme concern about by the operator of the coalfield about the effect of any new settlement along either the A nineteen south or the A sixty four south corridor. And this is a matter which must be given some weight in decision when you combine it with the other factors also which we have gone through today.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [Mr Paul Brighton:] If I can just make er Paul, Partnership. If I could just make one closing remark on this particular issue. The question of the Selby coalfield has not been seen as a constraint on other forms of development erm peripheral expansion, expansion of villages and so on within the coalfield area. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you wish to make any comment on this this one point? [Mr Peter Davies:] Not specifically other than obviously we don't know at the moment [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Peter Davies:] whether it is a real constraint in terms of erm of locating a er er a new settlement. I guess again that's something that needs to be looked at in the context of the er of of British Coal's ongoing program of work in the Selby Area. [Mr E Barnett:] Well we have come to the end of Mr 's list. The other one, vaguely at the back of my mind it was raised this morning cos I recall Mr made a comment on it, and that is erm looking at the growth implications beyond two thousand and six. Are there any sectors where that may be acceptable or unacceptable? Or is it something which just has to be considered as part of the planning process? When you're dealing with a specific proposal. Mr? [Mr George Whip:] I would say that it's a general applicability and it er governs the erm size that one should have regard to potentially in looking at the matter from the local plan point of view. I would say that it's germane to this exercise again in so far as it might lead to the conclusion that a particular sector is impracticable.... [Mr E Barnett:] Yes that that i yes. Yeah yeah. That is assuming of course that you would then go b much beyond the f the fourteen hundred figure which has been identified. [Mr George Whip:] Erm just as an example, in the cutouts distributed, the three square kilometres, the three hundred hectares, is erm er double of course the area that I took up to two thousand and six of one and a half. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. [D Whittaker:] Can we take it Mr that you would therefore apply the same comments to sector six on this criterion, as you did to the freestanding criterion? [Mr George Whip:] Indeed I would. I think that the inherent development pressures which would develop by two thousand and six in the case of a successful new settlement, would be such that there would be a severe risk of encroachment within that distance that one had, years earlier adopted as the necessary clearance between and existing settlement and the new settlement. One should therefore have regard to as far as possible, the eventual size. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. Thank you.... Has anyone else I think we've exhausted the criteria er appraisal as it were. What I'd ask for now er erm is a sort of general rounding up, summing up staring on my left hand side.... Miss is just saying to me that [clears throat] a quick review of her chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how shall I say, clear indication, using the same word twice, that would point us to one sector only.... In other words In other words [D Whittaker:] If I may chairman. I only highlight that to encourage those who are going to be making er concluding commentaries to p sharpen up their summary. Please. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Michael Courcier:] Michael. Sir,i having listened to the discussion nearly two two days, two and a half days, it seems to me that I come very firmly with the conclusion that the A f A fifty nine, the A nineteen north and B one three six corridors are simply not practical. Mainly on highway grounds. The A fifty nine has a number of constraints upon it, including best and most versatile agricultural land, its its difficulty of assimilating a new settlement, but as I say most importantly for highway reasons. The A nineteen north, very similar reasons, but we have the added reason that the local planning authority, Hambledon clearly will not accept such a new settlement. And very similar constraints on B one three six three corridor. That leaves you then with three corridors to to consider. The A nineteen south, the A sixty four south and the A sixty four north. Again, the A nineteen south has a major highway constraint upon it and it's very difficult to see how that could be overcome. And I in my opinion the A nineteen south in particular should be dismissed for highway reasons. It simply cannot accommodate the traffic flows which would be generated. Which leaves two corridors, which are the A sixty four south and the and the A sixty four north. The A sixty four south, again there are highway difficulties, you will see from the note which we put out, the extent of di of of over capacity on the A sixty four south. You have heard the the frequently repeated comments by by almost all of the participants of the difficulties this would cause to the regeneration of Leeds. It has the added difficulty of the minerals problems. It also has the added difficulty that it cannot be effectively served by rail. I think, for all those reasons, it is should not be preferred. The a in comparison, the A sixty four north has I think o scores better on almost all of the criteria. It won't it is accepted that the new settlement new settlement can be assimilated into the landscape. It is accepted that there isn't any significant minerals constraint and it's accepted that there isn't any high well there isn't the same quantity of best and most versatile agricultural land. Which brings me really to the factors which I give the most weight to. Most im Very importantly, it is the area where I think there's agreement almost around the table that it is it will be the area which will best meet the Greater York needs, rather than needs of Leeds or elsewhere in Greater York. That I think is a factor which you must give importance to given the views of the Secretary of State. It is also the area where you have the most, the best transport choice of the practical corridors. We know as a matter o that the roads wh when dualled the road when dualled, will have sufficient c capacity. We know that it already has a very good bus service. And but most importantly, it is there is also the potential for a rail link. I think that it best meets that very important criterion. And I I think that's all I need to say at this point. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr, are you going to run some horses through this particular race? [speaker010:] Erm Roy, House Builders' Federation. I said some days ago that I would have difficulty er assisting you in making the choice for for some obvious reasons. Erm I'm still obviously in that position, that that position hasn't changed. I think I would simply say that er if you feel you can make a choice, so be it, if you feel you can't make a choice I would implore you to take up some wording similar to the wording I've suggested, which seeks to commit the district authorities to a to a new settlement within within Greater York. Albeit there's no sector location. Because as I've said to you before, I think it's very important that a new settlement is provided somewhere within Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [Mr Paul Brighton:] Paul, Partnership. Sir, I think I have the advantage over most round the table, if not all that I have actually put in to you a paper which I think sets out very clearly the basis of my er choice of the A sixty four south erm sector and I won't reiterate those points. I would just like to make a couple of general points though regarding Selby District as a location. Erm first of all, I think alternative sites can be found within the district which meet the requirements of P P G three, erm set out in paragraph thirty three, and I think the other advantage which perhaps hasn't been touched on is that the new settlement in Selby District would balance the otherwise very heavy bias of recent and future programmed development which is er to the north east of York. particularly within Ryedale district. And also I think you've heard that er Selby District Council er wish to u use the er York new settlement as a very positive part of their own strategy to accommodate development within er their own northern areas to relieve development pressures erm on their villages. The second point which I would make is that despite having had many months indeed years, to come to a view, erm it is only Selby District Council who have stepped forward and said, basically that they would be prepared to accommodate the new settlement. The other districts have had plenty of opportunity to say so but they have not and I believe that can be taken that they are not favourably disposed to a new settlement within their district, regardless of whether they're in favour of the principle of it. And I think it is important in the Greater York context that the York new settlement be located in a district which is enthusiastic about the concept of developing a new settlement, because to do otherwise I think will undermine the role er function of the new settlement. And that really leads me up er leads me to my final point which I think it is essential to plan for success with this new settlement. Erm I've indicated this morning that I think the employment component of the new settlement is an absolutely crucial part of the overall concept and unless you get a very good employment area, all the other objectives for the new settlement will not be achieved. And I think there is very clear evidence that a location along the A sixty four corridor to the south erm west or York is most likely in the Greater York context to produce a good employment area. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you, Miss? [Miss Fiona Firth:] Fiona,. I consider that the A sixty four south erm corridor should be eliminated from consideration for the following reasons. Erm a proposal of the new settlement in this corridor would be contrary to regional and sub-regional policy. Erm it would undermine West Yorkshire's policy of urban regeneration by creating a magnet which would erm lead to further migration into the York area, it would therefore not serve York well. Erm I consider also that erm a development in this area would intrude on the sensitive gap between the York and West Yorkshire greenbelts and would be likely to cause coalescence between the fairly densely located villages in this sector. We've heard from Michael about the access problems on this corridor, erm he's produced figures that show that this particular route is over design capacity. I'd also like to point out that erm due to the isolation of much of the area in the sector, erm n new access to a new settlement would be very intrusive on the landscape. The area is is erm in the main, flat farmland and it would be very difficult to erm landscape effectively any new settlement proposal or roads... serving it. Erm this sector of land also contains a high proportion of high grade agricultural land and should therefore be avoided. Erm i in addition British Goa Coal have plans to undermine much of this area up to and beyond two thousand and six. These plans would be prejudiced by a new settlement in this location. That's it. [Mr E Barnett:] Is that it? [Miss Fiona Firth:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] You're not proposing any other sector which might be a suitable home? No No. [Miss Fiona Firth:] I'm not not. I'm not. [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] I I I mean I know the point which has been pursued by before. Mr, standing in for Mr. Yes I'm afraid I've come in as a a last minute substitute and I feel as if in the eighty ninth minute I've been given a penalty to take that could win the match or [LAUGHTER] missing it could mess us up so I I apologize. Erm I I've no wish to run through all the points er again that erm Mr and er Miss have have made in regard to the southwest sector. Erm I think that you know where we're coming from which I think the phrase you've used before. Erm we question the need completely for a new settlement and and we question that on the basis of population projection which we believe are reasonable. We're not seeking to impose artificial restraints of development, we don't think the demand for a settlement is there. Certainly not within the period of the current structure plan. We feel that the development that we admit is necessary, can comfortably be spread around the constituent authorities and we've heard nothing I I would submit that that that that that goes against that. You sir, I would contend have found at every turn uncertainty amongst the local authorities and a and a lack of unanimity amongst the Greater York authorities as to whether there should be a settlement and where where it should go. Which I which we would suggest is indicative of the fact that there is no overriding demand, which is what obviously for the purposes of P P G three, you are looking for. With particular regard to the interests of our client, other than taking an overview, we obviously have to look specifically at the southwest sector as a as a possible location. Erm... the principle aim of the new settlement would be to meet the needs of Greater York and one area that I'm afraid hasn't been considered yet, but which I think may well come out in connection with the employment policies in due course, is whether or not a new settlement in Selby would actually conflict with the underlying policies of Selby for development. It would actually be competing for development that Selby wants for its own population. Erm once the development er that would have been g going into Selby actually goes into the new settlement then it's me it's either meeting the new settlement's er sorry the the it's either meeting the goals of Greater York, in which case that's been taken away from Selby, or it's substituting for Selby. Erm a new factory going into the area for example will have a choice between one of Selby's erm can't think of a suitable adjective, large requirement for industrial land, or it will go into the new settlement. In our view the the simple fact that Selby are prepared to take it, erm shouldn't carry that much weight. I mean we have to make a sensible planning decision on where it should go and the fact that one authority is prepared to put its hand up when the others clearly aren't, should not be the main determining factor.... That's all I have thank you. Thank you. A volunteer is better than a pressed man. Mr. [Mr R Girt:] The C P R E er remains opposed to to the basic principle of the new settlement on the grounds that have already been discussed, it's not needed, it's not sustainable and it's inconsistent with with current and emerging guidance. However erm if if you as a panel are one minded to to go for the new settlement option and two, er minded to make a ren recommendation about particular geographical locations or sectors, erm I for one would be very concerned that this would be done on the basis of of insufficient technical erm information. Erm you have in front of you er background material that's been submitted by way of statement and erm a half a day of discussion today plus plus this evening. I conclude from that that the technical information on on all the sectors is at best patchy, erm and where it's comprehensive it's come from people who are advocating a particular development proposal. And it's certainly not available in sufficient detail for for all of the sectors to make a fair comparison and I think Mr has made this point in in when you've questioned him a number of times today that the information is just not available or to hand to make to make that comparison. Erm I I look forward to hearing Mr 's views on on this particular matter given that he was the or or the department was was responsible for for in a sense prolonging the discussion to consider the breakdown of locations and as to whether he feels that there is sufficient technical information available on all of the sectors should a recommendation come forward for a particular sector from from the panel. If if you as a panel conclude that the information erm is inadequate, clearly er on that basis then then a suggestion would have to be made as to one how this matter can be progressed. And from C P R E's point of view we we would feel that the best way to do that is to is to reconvene if that's the right word, the forum of Greater York authorities to to look in more detail at at each of the sectors and under undertake the the technical comparison I think in a in in a fair and reasonable way which which I don't think we've really we've really achieved during erm three hours of discussion today. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr, Mr do you want to make a contribution on that? [Mr R Girt:] Yes please chairman, erm as you've already heard, Leeds concerns are principally with the southwest corridor, the A sixty four corridor and to a lesser extent with the A fifty nine. Our concerns arise in relation to the new settlement of fourteen hundred households which we see as a quite different animal to the dispersed development proposed in Harrogate, Craven and so on. That concern is heightened if the settlement's intended to have growth potential beyond two thousand and six, and heightened still further if it's likely to be the focus of major employment development either in the short or longer term. The problems with these I think are principally of two kinds. Firstly effect on regeneration of the di diversionary investment which would be likely to arise, and that's as has been already mentioned, that's contrary to the Strategic Guidance for West Yorkshire. But also the increase in road commuting on routes into Leeds which are already severely affected and recognized as such by the Department of Transport and by the City Council. Leeds has received objections to its own U D P which proposed new settlements just beyond the ten miles on the A A sixty four corridor as well as elsewhere in East Leeds. If the panel were minded to recognize south west corridor as the location for a new settlement in North Yorkshire, then this is bound to influence the consideration which the City Council can give to those particular objections. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr. [Mr George Whip:] , Flaxton. Mr made reference to the development which has taken place round York in recent years. And to the fact that Ryedale has taken much greater share of that development than the other districts round York. In fact this procedure has one on over twenty years at least. But it's proposed to continue and if one looks at table N Y thirteen, tabled today, one sees that the residential land supply in and around Greater York up to two thousand and six, disregarding the new settlement, shows that out of a total of between eight thousand three hundred and eighty and eight thousand seven hundred and fifty dwellings, between three thousand eight hundred and ninety and four thousand one hundred and sixty, are destined for Ryedale. Indeed the settlement where we are at this moment, is to be expanded very considerably. This kind of thing has an important influence on the degree to which congestion can arise. And there is undoubtedly a high degree of movement from some of the new settlements here and in Haxby Wigginton into the City Centre, as compared with some other locations round. Congestion is er towards the northeast and the north. Day by day. I referred earlier to coalescence as being as an extremely important factor. I regard it as one of the two most important factors set out by D O E in paragraph thirty three. The other is of course the question of a need for positive environmental improvement if that can be gained. Through the reclamation of derelict land or the upgrading of areas of low landscape value. I will commend to the panel paragraph two point one point three of Ryedale District Council's position statement on policy H two with which we wholly agree. I hope that the panel will feel that it has had as a result of the position statements before it, and the discussions over the last few days, sufficient information to decide whether to exclude certain sectors. I certainly think that there has been enough information to do that and I would suggest that sectors four, five and six can readily be excluded. As between the other three, I have not expressed a particular preference, but because no developer has come forward in connection with sector three, there has perhaps been less detailed attention paid to that sector the A fifty nine, than to others. One should not overlook the desirability of having the railway line, which goes fairly directly to the station on a Regional Railways route and one should not overlook the importance of having a radial road which does not go through or otherwise influence villages between it and the centre of York. One should also I believe have regard for both the southwestern sector of York and this sector, the A fifty nine, the choices for traffic in coming to the city, on reaching the outer ring road, and the inner ring road. I believe that distribution possibilities are possibly better er for erm the south west and the north west er than or the erm er north east. I entirely agree with the comments which have been made by Mr with regard to congestion resulting from erm commuting from the northeast at the present day. That is all I would say in conclusion. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Erm go to Mr and then Mr. Come back to Mr towards the end. [Mr Michael Courcier:] ,. In view of all the information and advice that has been given during the course of this planning discussion, I'm firmly of the opinion that sectors three, four and five do not fully comply with the requirement of P P G three. However in looking at sectors one, two and three, I think there are two important issues to consider, one is the ability of any one sector to maximize the use of public transport facilities and to encourage their improvement. I think all those three sectors have the ability to do that. The other consideration is clearly one of the threat of coalescence. Because this is indeed one of the important criteria set out in P P G three, that is the question to respect local preference as well as have the support of the local authority. It is for this reason therefore that I think that sector six is more likely to threaten coalescence with existing communities than sectors one or two. We have heard that Selby District has the capacity to absorb a new settlement, the will to absorb a new settlement and indeed, the need for a new settlement to. It is for this reason that I suggest therefore that the preferred areas of search should be confined to the corridors of Selby West or Selby East. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. [D Whittaker:] Can I just clarify I'm sorry [Mr E Barnett:] It's alright. It's alright, Mr. [D Whittaker:] Mr, you ruled out initially sectors three, four... and five [Mr E Barnett:] Three four and five. [D Whittaker:] You r did I understand correctly that you ruled out sector six on grounds of coalescence? [Mr Michael Courcier:] Sector six because there's more chance of the threat of coalescence within that sector. [D Whittaker:] I'm grateful thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr... [Mr Christopher Timothy:] Chris, Wood Frampton. It is my view that when you look at all the locational criteria contained in policy H two and as we've discussed them, you'll reach the conclusion that there is one corridor that best meets those criterion, is the A sixty four northeast of York, sector six. I consider that this is this conclusion is reached having regard to the following seven points. Firstly, the A sixty four is to be dualled, in the national road programme. When it's dualled the road will have the spare capacity to accommodate a new settlement and we've heard that there is no Department of Transport objections to a new settlement along the A sixty four northeast of York. Secondly there are no mineral workings in the A sixty four northeast sector. Thirdly there is limited high quality agricultural land within that sector. Fourthly there is scope to assimilate a new settlement into the landscape without coalescence. There is extensive areas of woodland, many commercial plantations which can become the starting point for accommodating the new village. Fifthly, a location northeast of York for important reasons that have already been identified, will minimize the impact upon would minimize the impact of the new development upon the West Yorkshire conurbation and the objectives of urban regeneration that are taking place there. Sixthly, a new settlement to the northeast of York on the A sixty fi e A sixty four would be well located to existing employment, retail and leisure development that's taken place there. I draw your attention to the plan at appendix five of my statement. I mean you can see, it's self evident as you travel to Strensall that that development has been highly successful and s and the s the final seventh point is that the A sixty four north east corridor can be well served by the public transport to achieve the close relationship between the workplace and home, as national policy now seeks. And you can the new v village can bring forward with it a park and ride initiative that will complement other such initiatives taking place around York. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much.... Do any of the districts want to be drawn on a choice or are you still maintaining the line which you have persisted in maintaining since we embarked on this discussion on Thursday, where we have two districts well sorry, Mr and Mr not agreeing in principle with the new settlement. Er do you want to pursue any point on that?... No? Mr and Mr? [Mr Peter Davies:] Please. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Lindsay er Harrogate Borough Council. I think er what this exercise today has shown us is that only about half the factors in H two er have a strategic dimension in so far as they would affect a choice between broad sectors around York. Er the other half of the factors really do depend on detailed site conditions, and cannot easily form part of a strategic assessment. I don't think we've heard enough here to make the choice, I think we need to look at both strategic and local factors in the co on a comprehensive and comparable basis. I think that really does lead us back to the starting point which is the County Council's view that er er that comprehensive study needs to be done as a matter of urgency and steps are being taken to get that work moving very soon now. And er I think all all the exercise today has underlined the the common sense of that approach. Thank you.... [Mr E Barnett:] add anything to that Mr? Or are you just going to concur with what he said? [Miss Fiona Firth:] I'd agree with it fully. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr. [speaker010:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry sorry Mr. [Mr Paul Brighton:] Yes er Michael, Hambledon District Council. I don't think I need to say anything further on the Council's erm position on the new settlement erm or reiterate Hambledon's earlier view that it's n its er view that the settlement is not needed and cannot be justified. In relation to erm Mr 's point, erm I would raise one particular point of concern and erm this is the possibility of delay in in identifying a district and an area if this step by step approach is adopted. Erm at Thursday's and Friday's session last week, we heard the possibility of a further erm E I P to consider the issue, erm introducing a possible delay of another eighteen er months er before more s specific strategic guidance would be available on this issue. Erm Hambledon believes erm not withstanding its overall objection, that such a delay is unacceptable. Particularly because of its im its implications on district wide local plan preparation. Erm it would be difficult for Greater York authorities erm other than York to progress their district wide local plans until the matter's been resolved. Erm and I'd remind the panel of the statements in P P G twelve erm paragraph three seven, that the government expects to see substantially complete coverage er for district wide local plans within five years. Now irrespective of what substantially complete coverage means or from one t when one takes the five year period, the message is clear, erm local authorities are expected to get on with their district wide local plans and I believe that this step by step approach on the new settlement is going to introduce delays into district wide local plan preparation. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for that. Mr? [Mr George Whip:] , D O E. Thank you sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry. [Mr George Whip:] , D O E. Er I'm sure that members of the panel appreciate why I've remained silent during the discussion of item two D, but does anyone in the room who doesn't fully understand, it's simply that the Secretary of State of exercises role in relation to a new settlement. He may for instance need to intervene at the modification stage of the structure plan, or it could be that he will have to deal with appeals against non-determination of applications made by prospective developers. Or he could even be faced with the prospect of calling about individual applications or even heaven forbid, the structure plan itself. One point the department is very clear on, the section paragraph five thirteen of P P G twelve is as crystal clear as it could be, the structure plan should indicate the general location of individual developments likely to have a significant effect on the plan area. I find it difficult to imagine a form of development which would have a much more significant impact than that of a new settlement. We therefore feel it is absolutely vital that if there is to be a new settlement, it should come forward through the structure plan. The question posed in er item two D, should the policy include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement, we would hope that in the light of what you've heard, and in the light of the statement I've just read out, that you would have no difficulty coming to a conclusion on that question, just as it stands. I fear however in view of what we've heard from the two sides of the table, you will have rather more difficulty in coming even to a recommendation as to specific guidance on which sector of Greater York, this new settlement should be located if indeed you are minded to recommend in favour of one at all. We would have hoped that the county and district councils would have so organized their selection processes that they could have come to this examination in public fully prepared to argue the merits of geographical location. We have heard many times why that has not been possible and it's no good crying over spilt milk, as they say in these parts. It's a question of what happens from now on that's very important. I believe it's the intention of the authorities to try and do some very detailed work over the coming months, then armed with that detailed assessment and hopefully armed with your recommendations they may aim to be pr proceed to the modification step of the structure plan in a way that which will lead to a speedy conclusion. I find difficulty believing that they will be able to do that, simply because the detailed assessment that has been done to date, as we've heard so many times is is incomplete. But th the County Council may may yet surprise us on that score. All I would say is that, when the plan reaches modification stage, the Department will be looking at that the situation very closely indeed, and at that stage I would fully expect that even though I won't be here to to do it myself, as I shall have retired by that stage, [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr George Whip:] I feel it is more than likely that the Department will be making a submission to ministers at that stage in the proceedings. Just how they react obviously will depend on the state of play which has been reached. All I would wish to say to you now sir is I hope you will feel able to make a recommendation on the direct question, should the policy include specific guidance. If you are, feel able to go one step further, and make specific guidance as to sectors in the way we've described, by reference to physical features, that would be fine. But I fear that you may not be able to do that. At the end of our statement sir we we did make reference to the er er removal possible removal of the article fourteen. And I noticed at one point in the discussion, this was queried by H B F. I think they feared that we wouldn't at that stage we'd be opening up free for all of the kind which we've obviously been seeking to avoid thus far. You'll notice though, in our statement it did say, on completion of the formal modification processes. And we of course in in our thesis, that would mean on completion of the selection process, if a new settlement is to be part of the plan. We wouldn't expect the County Council to to be proceeding to approval of the plan, but merely an approval in principle or an approval of the concept. We would expect them to be proceeding on the basis of a specific sector, a general location in sufficient detail to enable them to place a symbol on the key diagram in the approximate location where they think a new settlement should go. And it was on that basis that we made that statement there. That's that remains our intention, we wouldn't want this article fourteen direction to remain in force indefinitely, even though g the G D O said that we can do that. We wouldn't wish to do that, but nor would we want to open up a free for all. We would want this to be seen logically, through approval of the structure plan, to be taken up in r in the relevant local plan, and for that relevant local plan to then sort out competing claims from prospective developments, in mu in much the same sort of exercise as we've seen in the structure plan but obviously in a more detailed way. So we would hope that by releasing that article fourteen direction at that stage, all we would really be doing is making it possible for the l particular local plan to receive more specific impetus from real life applications within the general locations specified in the structure plan. Beyond that, clearly I can't go. If that stage has not been reached at the end of the formal application processes it it'not for me to judge now what the Department'll do. But that's what lay behind the statement there. And I think that's all I would wish to say sir unless you've any further questions. [Mr E Barnett:] No that's fine Mr, thank you. There is Mr, the outstanding question about when is a settlement not a settlement, but before that, I I found this quick s this this this round the table summing up, very useful [Mr Peter Davies:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] if nothing for the fact that the message that is coming home loud and clear is this request for clarification, the advent of certainty, one way or another. Er and I again I have to say that we have not come to any conclusions about the new settlement, but certainly if there is to be a new settlement, then generally people would like more certainty. Erm we've heard about the measured approach, the step by step approach er and Mr, has said, please make your mind up one way or another so we can proceed with our local plan preparation. My question to Mr which he might like to comment on in his his summing up, is we've heard about the forthcoming meeting which you're going to arrange with the district council's, how soon would you be able to make progress? Would when would you be in a position to clarify, to your colleagues never mind anybody else, when would you be in a position to clarify which way forward? If we were minded to go down the new settlement line? [Mr Peter Davies:] , North Yorkshire. Well can I say first of all that the meeting to which you refer will take place this coming Monday and I suspect that it will be the first of possibly two or three meetings which I suspect are going to follow rather quickly, one after the other. Er I suspect that through December and into early January, we would be moving towards agreement er hopefully agreement on the location for the new settlement. So that into the turn of the year, I can't be any more precise er than that, certainly we would hope to be seeing er the wood er from the trees. And quite clearly there is a lot of work that needs to be done because if we look back on the discussion this afternoon, er this morning er and this evening, quite clearly there are conflicting views and conflicting interpretations about various criteria, various elements of information that should er er should go into the mix. Erm as I digest Mr 's comments and the various implications erm of the things that he said, it's more and more confirming for me that perhaps we may well be right in the step by step measured approach because quite clearly erm I suspect that if we run at this stage a preferred location, erm I suspect that the the opposition to that and there would be opposition to it, may well have may well prejudice the principle er of the new settlement. The County Council's view has always been, before you face that hurdle, let's agree or get the principle accepted and then we move as quickly as we possible er as we possibly can towards a preferred erm location. That is our timescale, I know the County members and certainly the the three district council members are eager to have this matter resolved because, let's be perfectly fair, it's been hanging around now since nineteen eighty nine in a sense. But it's been hanging for the l particular local plan to receive more specific impetu done this exercise properly. They've done it step by step and they've done nothing er to my mind that would prejudice full public consultation and public confidence erm er in the process. As I look back on what happened this morning and this evening, er er nothing I've er suggests to me that any one sector should be discounted at present and I think er on the basis of what I've heard at the moment, erm all the sectors that er that we've discussed today, er are still in the frame. We said it would be difficult, erm and that discussion has proved how difficult it is to come to a firm conclusion. It may well be that weighting needs to be applied to er er the various criteria and I think that elected members are the appropriate starting point for er applying er er applying that weighting. Because it may well be again that more specific area of search will meet all twelve, on hundred percent erm of the criteria er that we er are putting forward. I did find the discussion interesting and illuminating, er it's gonna be a difficult task and I think that task for the County Council and certainly three of the district councils, starts on Monday afternoon. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Well on that note I propose to conclude [Mr Peter Davies:] The the difficult question of what is a settlement is going to be answered by Mr. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Oh yeah, the settlement. [D Whittaker:] Malcolm, County Council. I feel as though I've been asked to define, what is the length of a piece of string? I seem to recall I did once look in a dictionary to try and find out the definition of settlement, all it said was something like a place where people settle. It didn't seem to be getting me very far. It seems to me there are there are several elements to definition of settlement. First there's the idea it is a place where people live. Er it is not an industrial estate in the open countryside. I think the second element is that there must be some sense of a concentrational identity erm so that the the sporadic development that one does tend to see in the countryside, I don't believe constitutes a settlement. And the third element is a question of size. I don't believe that a a single farm with a collection of farm buildings around it constitutes a settlement in the way that is normally used in planning terms. Or that perhaps two or three dwellings together necessarily constitutes a settlement. But I think that is very much a question of personal perception. Trying to bring those those elements together into a single definition, I I had to use an established grouping of permanent habitation. And more than that I'm afraid I cannot tell people. There is no definition in the approved structure plan? [Mr E Barnett:] No. [D Whittaker:] There isn't Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. On that note I propose to close the discussion on H two, can I thank everybody for their participation, their contribution. We found it extremely helpful. Give us a headache of er where we take our thoughts from here. Can I say also a particular thank you to the unsung heroes sitting in the corner here. And without them we couldn't function properly. Anyway, thank you all very much, er some of you we will see again tomorrow, ten o'clock. [end of session]

[Mr E Barnett:] Part of the panel members is might be classed as partly walking wounded but... endeavour to carry on during the course of the day, you will find out who's the walking wounded. Erm before we embark on the continued discussion on H two er and we are prepared to look at erm the the which says should the party include specific plans on location of the new settlement. Erm there are a number of matters which need to be picked up by the county council as a result of requests which we made on Friday and also you will note that a number of additional papers have been laid on the table. Some of which are, well will need to be covered as we proceed er with the discussion on H two and I think in particular probably the additional paper produced by will need to be introduced... Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] North Yorkshire. First of all chairman we have put in this morning erm a paper on commitments which erm I think was asked for by the panel which is this document which should have been circulated er by now. Erm if anybody has any questions or queries on that er we'll be pleased to to deal with them. Erm the second er request was for to work in respect of the Greater York area, and unfortunately my unbounded optimism erm in respect of that has not borne fruition. Er as you will be aware chairman the nineteen ninety one census to work with data is not available, yet, from the census. But there is a body of information held by the county council erm on er journey to work movements in the Greater York area collected on erm on going basis largely by consultants, erm shared by the county council er and the City council. Unfortunately all the O N D information erm on that and that binds is post code er referenced erm and to extract the data erm in a meaningful sense for Greater York will require the reworking of all the basic data and that will take some time. So there, s a difficulty on that. But we have got a paper which we produced in nineteen eighty seven which was a review of the Greater York area using travel to work statistics from the albeit from the nineteen eighty one erm er census. And that worked did lead to an amendment of the then Greater York area to the area that is defined now. And that does include that paper does include er a schedule er of work trips into er York er for the various wards erm around York. And if that would be helpful er we can certainly give this to er erm panel secretary for circulation erm today. I apologize for the difficulties on getting er data out, more recent data largely due to the way the model is constructed at the moment.... [D Whittaker:] What I think we are looking for, in asking for during th was... a ratification of the definition of Greater York.... As I see it in with the board, Greater York,... now that the green belt is in a deposited local fund,... includes only two small areas beyond the green belt. [speaker004:] [whispering] [] [D Whittaker:] To the north and north west of the city.... St structured numbered policy H one as it stands [speaker004:] [whispering] [] [D Whittaker:] Provides for nine thousand seven hundred dwellings to be within the Greater York Area. And clearly from our debate the county council propose that that shall include a new settlement. It seems to me that the new settlement if... my analysis is correct can only be in one of those two areas, which doesn't seem to me to be a very sensible way of proceeding. [Roy Donson:] Yes I think erm I think that's a fair point and this was touched on erm on erm Thursday or Friday, I can't remember which and er in respect to I think Mr raised the issue of the specific wording of the proposed policy H one. Er and I think we would all er acknowledge er the the precise difficulties of that wording and perhaps a, an amendment may need to be considered on the second line following the list of districts. Er which refers to provided in relation to the Greater York Area rather than in the Greater York Area. Something along those lines er maybe a more [speaker004:] [cough] [Roy Donson:] acceptable erm recognition of the reality of the the boundary of the green belt in the Greater York study area.... And the wording could be tightened up possibly on that basis chair er chairman. [D Whittaker:] An alternative way of looking at it would perhaps be to say the Greater York Area is that area within ten miles of the city centre as is indicated by the third of the criteria set out in policy H two. [Roy Donson:] Well I think there's a difficulty with that on, you then get into a difficulty on housing provision for Greater York districts. Erm to take the Greater York Area out to to to ten miles would not equate with the the calculations and the level of provision which erm have been worked out and which relate to the Greater York study area as defined erm in in in this document. [Mr Peter Davies:] But p [microphone fault] up to ten miles, that takes you outside the limit and if if you have a new settlement for up to fourteen hundred clients, that patiently takes you outside the Greater York Area as defined by your study. [Roy Donson:] Yes indeed it does erm [Mr Peter Davies:] So it must fall within the remain you know eight districts figures. Outside the Greater York. [Roy Donson:] Well on the way that we've instructed erm policy H one part of the provision for the Greater York districts is part of the nine thousand seven hundred. Now quite clearly the new settlement erm when it, if and when it goes ahead will be outside erm the area of the green belt and which by definition is by and large the area of the Greater York er er study area, and I think in response to er Mr 's point, we've accepted as a need for a er a minor amendment to the wording of policy H one to reflect that er that reality. And I would have thought it could be accommodated with something like in relation to the Greater York area. [D Whittaker:] But you c... My impression is that you still finish up with a contradiction if you use terminology like in the Greater York area when there is and stick to the existing definition of that area. Is there a solution to this in the table which erm... has ruined Mr 's weekend perhaps? Oh he's still smiling, it obviously it hasn't ruined his weekend.... If, could... the problem be overcome by defining the Greater York area in the way I suggested? Within ten miles of the city centre and a and make a... compensating increase in the nine thousand seven hundred in line one of the third paragraph in policy H one. The table that's before us indicates that there are about sixteen hundred dwellings within the area... defined by ten miles [whispering] []. [Roy Donson:] I think to do that erm [clears throat] to chairman, to to define the Greater York [clears throat] area then to ten miles that would of course require a consistent calculation of the housing need requirement both the local need element and the hundred percent migration element which arises within that ten mile er area, to be consistent with erm the rest of the policy, and of course that calculation erm that consistent calculation er has not been done for that area. [D Whittaker:] I think Mr wants to help us out. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Er well I'm not sure I want to I I I I want to help you out chairman.. I I i i in a way I want to back up the point Mr has just just made. The basis of of the housing calcul housing requirement calculation which has submitted both in my evidence and and the county's evidence. Was based on calculating housing needs within that Greater York study area, roughly speaking, six miles. Taking parish members etcetera. If we are now changing the area to ten miles then the the basis of the calculation needs to be made differently. [speaker004:] Mm. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] It isn't the simple matter of adding on existing commitments to an existing calculated housing need. [Mr E Barnett:] Yep. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Er it would be a different commitment and would be a different basis. Er and and therefore er unless we are changing the basis of the calculation of the housing need thereby the basis of which we are thereby judging how we meet the requirement. Erm unle unless we're actually making that change as such, then the only way forward it seems to me i i is on the lines of which of which Mr has indicated which is that erm essentially the needs of Greater York are calculated on the current Greater York study area and the requirements are made on that basis and the supply is within that area, unless it can't be made in that area in that case it goes without that area, and therefore it it it's part of the justification for the new settlement. [D Whittaker:] Is there a compromise which says that [cough] rather than increasing the nine thousand seven hundred as suggested a moment ago from the county councils own point of view that nine thousand seven hundred should be decreased on a new settlement.... I'm not putting forward that as my position. But that is what I understand is the county council's position. [Mr E Barnett:] [whispering] [] Can we just ponder that, erm [whispering] []. chair. [Mr P Brighton:] county council. I mean that that is one possible approach of doing it that you instead of taking the figure of nine thousand seven hundred in policy H one you refer to it as being eight thousand three hundred, or whatever figure you might happen to come up with. And then make a separate statement on swearing the policy that er a new settlement of approximately X dwellings will be er provided in relation to the Greater York area or even round of type of form of dwelling you think is appropriate. And that is one way of doing it. Erm [LAUGHTER] it's just this is one alternative, yes? [Mr Peter Davies:] But it it strikes me that you need to do some critical rewording of that policy H one in order to reflect this situation. If as I suspect from what Mr has said that that the there is some reluctance to start revamping the Greater York in quotes figures.... Yes? Then we have to revamp. We have to recognize the situation but erm restructure accordingly. [Mr E Barnett:] Any other comments?... Thank you for that. Can we then come to discussing the outstanding... issue of H two. Erm before we do that Mr do you want to just briefly introduce your additional paper. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Mm, [clears throat].... your invitation erm on Friday, I've prepared a very brief statement on erm our analysis of the relative erm suitability of each of the sectors around the Greater York area to accommodate a new settlement. Erm you will see that in section one, I've identified six sectors which broadly relate to the main er the primary roots which er cross the Greater York area. And also in section one paragraph one point three I have ranked the criteria set out in policy H two plus two additional criteria of my own, in what I believe to be in their order of significance in relation to the questions that we're considering. In section three erm I set out erm my basis for the valuation of all those criterion for each of the sectors and basically I've adopted erm a fourth grade evaluation of each of the factors and you'll see on table one, which is contained within section two, erm the er the summary of that consideration. And basically the the gradings I've allowed in respect of the performance of each of the factors. Very good performance, acceptable performance, poor performance and very poor performance. Erm I would have liked to have produced some er tables and diagrams to go with this document, but you will appreciate within the time that we had available, erm that there was insufficient time available to er to prepare that but hopefully that will give you er a basis for considering the, relative merits of the various a various erm sectors around York. [Mr E Barnett:] This is this is only just been laid on the table obviously this morning, hasn't it? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Yes it has sir, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes and the county are in the same position as everybody else in not having been able to check it. Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] . Sir we've only had this for I think for three minutes before the start of the erm of of this erm session, I'm just wondering if we could have ten minutes to read it? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes fine. We'll have an adjourn we'll adjourn until half past ten, so you've all got chance to read this.... Can we can we now recommence please. Erm before we actually get down discussing this er submission can I just say that we do have another issue to talk about at er two o'clock this afternoon and therefore it means that our discussion will, on this topic, will have to terminate at one o'clock. If we have not got through for what we need to er examine then the proposition is that we should reconvene at five thirty this evening. And the hall is available to us this evening, but I would like to con I think well I hope you will concur that I would like to conclude on H two today. So with that we proceed into er looking at H two. Can I say that we ourselves have also been drafting a set of criteria, er taking on board the various points that were made on Friday morning. Er I also have to reemphasize again that we have in no way we have made up our minds as to whether or not there should be a new settlement, but we have to proceed to discuss the issues as identified. So we were drafting a list of criteria. And equally we were beginning we we had also, discussed the way in which we would approach it sector by sector. And certainly in terms of the sec the sector approach, the one which erm Mr has produced is als almost coterminous with the with the way in which we wanted to look at it. Now can I ask first of all, are you, as we have a paper in front of us, are you happy to continue the discussion of the basis of the sector by sector approach, and in particular the sectors which have been identified by Mr? Cos that I must say that was the way in which we would have wished to have proceeded with the discussion.... We we do have to try to answer this question of whether or not there should be specific guidance about the location. If if we are minded to support a policy for a new settlement.... And I frankly can see no way of being able to answer that question or attempt to answer that question without going through this form of exercise.... Any dissenting voice on that? No? Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Well erm, North Yorkshire. I wouldn't say it was a dissenting voice chairman, erm But er following the discussions on on Friday erm I endeavoured to take erm instructions from on this particular issue which I as far as I was able to do I did. And erm the county council position is as erm I stated at the outset of this exercise. That er erm the county council feels that it's not able to move toward a preferred general location in advance of the detailed assessment of the criteria. That erm the county council is pursuing at this er at this alteration. I er and I put that in solely as er as an update on the on the county council position as I expressed er earlier in the week. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Er I I mean I yes that was your attitude in the. Sorry that is the county council's view. It hasn't changed but as we said on Friday morning the D of E amongst others have sugg er expressed a view that the panel ought to try to come up with a general location if we can. And I can see no other way of proceeding than that in which we proposed at the moment. We may not be able to come to a conclusion. Cos we may not have sufficient information. We don't know yet but let us see how we go. Erm s so moving on from that we have a list of crit. Sorry Mr? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you sir er, Selby District. Erm whilst clearly I'll er I'll do my best to er assist your investigation sir. It's still as as we said on Friday, places I think all the districts but certainly puts the Selby district in, in great difficulty, in in that we've already acknowledged that we feel Selby district is an appropriate location for a new settlement and there are indeed two particular road corridors that that unclear [Mr E Barnett:] Yes I, we've we've identified these from your submission. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Well I I'm in difficulty to help you chose which which would be the more appropriate. There are potential areas of search in in growth which the local authority has identified as part of the background work to local planning preparation. But clearly I'm not in a position to reveal the results of of that work in advance of it put into my memory. [Mr E Barnett:] Well let's let's see how we go. I mean we could well be the exercise that we embark on, could actually eliminate sectors around York. And at least that would be an advance if nothing else. [LAUGHTER] Can we come back to the criteria and I probably ought to refer you lar really to the I I know this is set out a little br a s rather shorthanded fashion. But I think we all know what they mean. There's a slightly different list in the table one produced by Mr, as from the erm the criteria which are set out from the section in paragraph one three of this paper. And I say that because in one three, for example, he doesn't make any reference to the need for the settlement to be free standing as avoid coalescence. Whereas it does figure as one the factors within his table.... If you look at your paragraph one three Mr, under item eight where you say a bracket equals weight. You have five headings there. And if you look at the table one. You actually have six. [Mr P Brighton:] Yes I'm grateful sir for erm pointing out that omission. Er a reflection of the speed at which it was put together. [Mr E Barnett:] Precisely. [LAUGHTER] Now [clears throat] if you take the table one and bearing in mind it it it's... reflects reasonably well that that the factors or the criteria which we discussed on Friday morning. Are there any others which people feel ought to be added to that list?... Mr [Mr J Cunnane:] I'm I I've only just l l looked at this like very er er like everybody else. But er I'm not certain that the criterion two of edge two is in there anywhere. My... erm Could it should be under. Erm [Mr E Barnett:] Well i i it could be loosely bracketed under six.... I said it was a shorthanded way of [Mr J Cunnane:] Yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] expressing the criteria.... [Mr J Cunnane:] Yes, yes yeah... [speaker004:] I think [Mr J Cunnane:] I... I I have to say that I I... I I'm not enthusiastic about using this which is so obviously at a report in support of the particular locations, to to look objectively at the criteria. I would prefer it if... er we looked at the criteria and the policy itself, but take useful information from this if if need be. Rather than use this. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr J Cunnane:] Because it is er... let's face it is er [Mr E Barnett:] Well le let's put it this way. In the the words of the Mikado I have a little list of own. [cough] [speaker004:] Creeping little. [Mr E Barnett:] Perhaps we could see that? [LAUGHTER] We can use that.... [D Whittaker:] There is one criterion which erm I'm not clear about whether Mr has included or not. And then [microphone fault] question of beyond two thousand and six. [speaker004:] [blowing nose] [D Whittaker:] Whether... we should include as a consideration whether this particular eighth new settlement in this particular sector would have the capacity to expand beyond two thousand and si [microphone fault] In saying that I'm conscious that we have ducked because as a panel we have to duck. At the moment the question of how big the settlement should be... [cough] [Mr P Brighton:] , Part of the. I would be entirely happy to have erm an additional consideration relating to possible expansion beyond two thousand and six and I believe that is an entirely sensible way in which to proceed.... [speaker004:] [blowing nose]. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr and Mr, and then Mr. [Mr R Girt:] , Leeds City. I've er a comment which I think in part it relates to Miss 's observation. That is the relative importance which are attached to regional and sub- regional policies. It seems rather strange to me that something which is patently strategic should come so far down the list of factors even er below satisfactory access for example. [187 1] At this stage obviously the observations which can be particular will related to existing regional and su sub-regional policies. But at the time that the county council had moved to adopt the policy, we may be in the working the context of regional policy to be issued by the Secretary of State. And that may introduce new considerations not available to us today. So I would suggest that regional and sub- regional policies need to occur much higher up the list and er perhaps I would put them at number one if not number two. [Mr E Barnett:] W well if it wou if it would help I mean I could produce the list that we have in mind. Erm which moves certain things around. I iin the way in which, in the order of consideration. [speaker004:] [whispering] []. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Go on then. [D Whittaker:] Erm, in suggesting that we could use Mr 's papers as a basis for dis [microphone fault] Mr 's order of priorities. But simply using his list and any additional items that we have as a check list, no more than that. So I think that Mr 's point can be covered. Obviously in going through each of these lists, each of these items we want to know. Use participants [speaker004:] [blowing nose] [D Whittaker:] a new settlement in this general location would meet that criterion. I don't think we can take the discussion any further than that, otherwise we'd.... But perhaps a pig in a poke. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to take that in the spirit in which it's er made?... Alright? We'll move on. [clears throat] Now just going back to the, sorry, Mr. [speaker004:] Yes,. We would be very happy to see Mr 's paper used as a check list. But I should like to emphasize the point that expansion beyond two thousand and six is regarded by as having considerable relevance. And that it would be imprudent in the extreme for allowance not to be made for that feature. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yes. [clears throat]... Mr , York City Council. Can I just ask a point of clarification? Erm the phraseology under seven er which deals about satisfactory access. Do I take it to mean that when we come to discuss erm a particular road issue that would be take also to include impact upon the highway network in the area? Yes. Yes. Yeah.... [clears throat] Well if you turn back to the various sectors. Er... I I have to deal with I I say we must er Mr... has put this in as number two on his list, which is local planning authority support. But can I just refer you back to the words of P B G three where it says quite clearly in paragraph thirty three. The proposal is a clear expression of local preference, supported by local planning authorities.... And that must be the underlying, one of the underlying themes i i in considering er this this in considering this review of the area around York. Now in terms of the sectors erm Well I I sh probably shouldn't say this. But c c can we take er start off in the top top left hand corner of the clock face, which in fact is er Mr 's number three where he s he says the A fifty nine, the area astride the A fifty nine and B twelve twenty four within Harrogate d district. And then work our way round with the clock in that er in that way.... Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Thank you chairman., Harrogate Borough Council. Could I seek some clarification from Mr on what he means by the area astride the A fifty nine and the B one two two four. Because erm by the time those roads have left the green belt. Erm in the vicinity of Moor Monkton and Long Marston respectively. Er the roads are about four kilometres apart and, and a valuation would I think be pretty meaningless because conditions er along those two axes do differ in certain respects.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr P Brighton:] ,. Erm there was in fact a plan submitted with erm this text. Unfortunately because of its size it could not be erm reproduced quickly this morning. However, erm the area concerned basically is the entire segment of the ring that is within Harrogate district. I've tried to relate the sectors to both the principal transport corridors and also in very broad terms district boundaries. [Mr E Barnett:] So [cough] Just just so we're absolutely certain then, sorry if I if I can just take you back to the the l the areas spelt out in paragraph one one. Little one, A nineteen south. That is Selby district. Right Mr? [Mr P Brighton:] Correct sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Selby East we might call that. East of the Ouse. The next one is also, we'll call that Selby West.... Number three is Harrogate district. [speaker004:] ? [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want it split, Mr, or not? Or are you happy to take it under this umbrella umbrella heading? [Mr Peter Davies:] [whispering] [] [Mr E Barnett:] Or happier? [Mr Peter Davies:] I think as as long,, Harrogate Borough Council. As long as long as everyone recognizes that for an area of that size, er conditions will vary within it. Much significantly, as long as that is recognized I'm happy to proceed on that. [Mr E Barnett:] Well [cough] if you feel it should be split say so now. [Mr Peter Davies:] Erm I think we'll leave it as it is. [Mr E Barnett:] Alright thank you. Then A nineteen north number four, that is Hambledon. Mr okay? Clear? And the last two, they're all as, far as I read it Mr in Ryedale district. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Five? Runs from Hambledon round to the east. Six? Let's try the A sixty four. How much falls in Hambledon and how much falls in Selby? On six. Mr, I turn to you for guidance on that one. [Mr P Brighton:] Again sir. On the ground the the division between the B one three six three corridor and A sixty four north must be erm a difficult one but again I for convenience I have used the district boundary to divide the two. [Mr E Barnett:] So are you saying that the six actually falls in Ryedale? [Mr P Brighton:] Yes sir but erm The cu, the A sixty four north falls entirely within Ryedale. [D Whittaker:] And can be described as Ryedale east, northeast? [speaker004:] Northeast. [Mr E Barnett:] Well as there's only one Ryedale sector perhaps Ryedale east. [D Whittaker:] The implication of what the chairman just said was that area five was also in Ryedale. Is that not so? [Mr E Barnett:] That that's not so. Of the er [D Whittaker:] No part of a area five then in Ryedale [Mr E Barnett:] No. No it's all in Hambledon. In very broad terms.... [D Whittaker:] So Hambledon splits west to east. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes I wonder if it might help you sir if I erm if I submit a copy of the plan? [speaker004:] No. No. [D Whittaker:] Mr it's, I don't think it's helpful to the panel to have these sectors straddling district boundaries. In view of our starting comment on Friday morning, acknowledging that Mr had some reservations about it, was that we had at least aim district. [speaker004:] [paper rustling] [Mr E Barnett:] But Mr, sorry to come in. As I read five. You say the area astride the B thirteen sixty three broadly between the boundary of Hambledon district to the west [noise background] and to the east, so it must be Ryedale, [Mr P Brighton:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] if the Hambledon boundary is on the west. [paper rustling] Can't be anywhere else. Surely. [Mr P Brighton:] Yes I'm sorry. It's er,. I attempted at first to put this into Ryedale district. Erm and obviously unsuccessfully. The intention is that er this B one three six three six corridor lies broadly within the Hambledon district and its eastern most boundary is roughly contiguous with the Ryedale and Hambledon boundary. And there is an error in five under the description. [speaker004:] Chairman. Er I wonder if this planning coincidentally, that we've put in with with the commitments which has got the district boundaries on, may be in fact er more helpful in determining the the the one three six three. I in fact would very quickly er in orange just ran the an orange pin up along the line of the one three six three as you will see, it's is primarily within,with primarily within Hambledon district. The one three six three goes out through the Sutton on Forest on Forest does it? [Mr E Barnett:] Sutton on Forest, yeah. Well I must confess Mr it's it's difficult if we get into a situation where we've got an area straddling two districts and I don't have to say why, in some respects.... If I refer you back to P P G three. [Mr P Brighton:] Yep, yeah.. The patched lines on the plan which you have in front of you erm are only intended to be indicative. Erm we have not had a great deal of time to put this together. Er and they are merely designed to draw attention to the broad corridors which [Mr E Barnett:] Yep. [Mr P Brighton:] I would presume people would interpret to be contiguous with the district boundaries, where a district boundary straddles that line. [Mr E Barnett:] Yep. [D Whittaker:] How would you describe your area five in district terms please?... [Mr P Brighton:] Hambledon North. [D Whittaker:] As opposed to area four which is Hambledon? [Mr P Brighton:] Hambledon South. [D Whittaker:] Thank you.... [speaker004:] [clears throat] [Mr E Barnett:] So are we clear then both four and five, four certainly lies within Hambledon and five also lies within Hambledon? Is that the way we are going to bring mo move forward? [Mr P Brighton:] Well yes, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, thank you. Is everyone else clear about that?... Mr. [Mr R Girt:] Sir from. I'm just having regard to criterion four of policy H two. It says have good access or be able to provide good access to the primary road network. And when I refer to the erm primary road network defined in the T P P. I see that the one three six three doesn't form part of the primary road network. And I just wondered if it would ease the discussion if we omitted that particular corridor? [Mr E Barnett:] Well this is why we were trying to relate it to districts. [D Whittaker:] Which we have now done. [Mr E Barnett:] Which we have done. Alright? [Mr R Girt:] Mhm. [Mr E Barnett:] Right.... Can we now go through... criteria by criteria? And you've got to try and relate this back to the areas as we have now as we now understand them.... The first one identified by Mr says avoid the green belt. And there there is no doubt that the areas identified do avoid the green belt. They lie outside it.... Moving to number two on his list and I'm referring to table one. Forget the weighting, we just run through the check list, just run through the check list. Local planning authority support and here I refer you back to P P G three. These words will be inscribed on your heart before we finish today. The proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by local planning authorities. Now Mr in his table has identified, four double Xs.... Now the question is, is that correct? Because my understanding of the situation is that Harrogate have expressed, I'll come to you in a moment Mr, Harrogate have expressed support in principal for the idea of a new settlement. But here they are credited with a double X, astride the A fifty nine. And Ryedale again have also expressed support for the idea of a new settlement. But they're credited with a double X. But I'm also aware in the context of the A fifty nine sector, and this may well be your point, Mr, that Leeds would have, to put it succinctly, a dim view, about a new settlement in that sector because of the fact it may draw off erm regeneration effort in in the Leeds metropolitan district. Is that the point that you wanted to make? [Roy Donson:] Yes,. Yes yes it is. I think you've assumed the answer to my question which was going to be to, addressed to Mr. To clarify which local planning authorities would be party to the agreement of the location of a new settlement. Whether it be the planning authorities with er contiguous boundaries to the location of the new settlement area. Or simply those local planning authorities within the county area with whom which the new settlement proposal lay. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Can I develop that [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Peter Davies:] point as well? And in reference to what it said. North Yorkshire in the P P G. And can I put for erm in the P P G. Could I put forward a scenario to you, which I haven't really thought through. That being that the county council and yourselves consider this strategically. Clearly the best location ought to be at point eight. Which, shall we say, we are talking about the A fifty nine, is along the A fifty nine corridor. Erm that quite clear, that is the best solution. It could e just as equally be else where. What would happen if the district council didn't support it yet the county council er supported it? And quite clearly the strategic benefits erm justified a new settlement on say the A fifty nine corridor. And really I'm looking to here. What does it mean? Does it mean that county and district have got to sign up for it? If it's and district as well. Is there not the possibility that er a district that is not happy could er prejudice what is sound strategic planning er policy? [Mr E Barnett:] That's a fast one at this time of the morning Mr. [cough] [D Whittaker:] Can I perhaps offer to give give Mr a bit more thinking time and suggest that a local plan which did not contain something which was in the structure plan, as a proposal would not be in accord with the structure plan. Could I also give Mr a bit more thinking time by going off on another angle? I think it's important in considering the question of local authority to support, to remember the basis on which the advice in P P G three is predicated. And I don't I think it is no accident that the seconds criterion is the second criterion not the first criterion. It is the second criterion because the first step is to reject the alternatives. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. Yeah. [D Whittaker:] And therefore whilst it may be that district councils will have to take some reservations, in expressing support. And that may be a bit mild for the position they find themselves in. From our discussion last week it is clear they have rejected the alternative. Mr. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] . I shall do my best to answer the questions, chairman. But I I must say it fills me with trepidation. Erm as I understand the way P P G three was drafted, this was in response to the circumstances which had appertained before February ninety two. R r right around the country in all sorts of different locations, we'd seen applications coming forward on a speculative basis. The one which... [D Whittaker:] Can you move the microphone? [Mr E Barnett:] Can you move the mike? Yeah, move the mike. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] The one which was highlighted in the H B F paper in Nottinghamshire was quite clearly before P P P P G three came out. Erm it came as no surprise to me to read the the issue of that that particular proposal. You notice right at the top of the column of that particular page, er when it's highlighting that er that history. It does say they're almost invariable deeply controversial. And in the light of this experience the Secretary of State take the view that, and then goes on to list all the factors. So it seems to me that these were a set of circumstances trying to overcome the previous bad situation which has applied. Now I I construe that, the way that's constructed to mean that er when we're say that the tide had turned against new settlements, as some districts were doing at the time this came out. We thought what that meant, er it'd certainly turn turn against this speculative proposal. And I think it would now be most unlikely for a speculative proposal that hadn't come through a planning system to succeed. Now clearly in saying that, I I can only er say what we believe. And it wouldn't, you would never know for certain until a speculative proposal was actually put to the test. Well I certainly I believe that to be the case. Now as for the difference between county and district, Mr 's point is a very very valid one. They're the authority charged with producing a strategic plan for the area. In that obviously they have to take on board the views of their constituent districts. And three or four of them like this, they have to try and come up with the the right solution. So in theory it's possible for the county solution at the end of the day to be not completely in line with what its constituent districts think. [Mr E Barnett:] Aha. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] The Secretary of State, I'm sure would would obviously have to take on board what was embodied in the final structure plan. But I think in deciding his actions before the actual approval of the plan, he would ne need to take on board any difference of opinion between the county and district on an issue of this kind. And i it may be, for instance, erm that he may even have to intervene at the modification stage if something was going seriously wrong. All I all I think I would say at this stage is let's wait and see whether the county and one district are in line on the question of the the new settlement. If that happens I would think there would be a reasonable pro for succ reasonable prospect for success. And my guess would be, and it can only be a guess, that if there actually was disagreement between a county and the prospective recipient of a new settlement, then I suspect that that the Secretary of State would not want such proposals to proceed. And that's purely expression of opinion off the top of my head. I simply have no idea of how it would proceed in practice. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Sorry I can't be more helpful than that. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, the difficulty is at the moment of course, the Secretary of State does not, is not the erm person responsible for approving the structure plan. The the final the final desic well the decision will rest with the county council. But the Secretary of State ob has obviously got reserved power if he if he feels obliged to step in. [Mr Malcolm Spittle:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] Yeah er. Could I please draw attention er you already chairman have, but it's important from where I stand to draw attention to the words of the second criterion of the P P G. Which says that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities. Erm, to my knowledge and I'd be corrected if I'm wrong on this. Local preference hasn't or local views have not been canvassed about these locations that we're now discussing. So the question, whether or not there's there is a clear expression to my, to my mind cannot be answered. Second point I'd make is that in relation to the table one. Erm weighting, I'm sorry. It it's indic indic to the relevant performance in relation to the A nineteen and the A sixty four. Er they're both given very good performance. Er I presume on the basis that Selby district council have expressed a support for them. And I just need to come back to the point that my client certainly doesn't support either of them. Er and to that extent, as we have set out in our evid in our submissions. Er our client is a local employer of long standing who is concerned about the local environment and erm, objects most strongly to these locations. Er so to that extent local preference is not satisfied in that case, even though Selby district council have expressed a preference. [D Whittaker:] But is it not true Mr that your client rejects the alternative of expansion of existing settlements? [Mr J Cunnane:] Er not necessarily in the way you've expressed it. Er my client expr er rejects the expansion of Tadcaster as one of the potential, as as one possible expan er er settlement, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [D Whittaker:] , Ryedale district. I would agree with Mr that none of the proposals are a clear expression of local preference because none of them have actually been considered by the the local people within each of the districts. However, going back to the table, the second criteria local planning authorities support. Ryedale supports the principal of a new settlement. It has never answered the question whether or not it is appropriate in Ryedale. So I don't think that the two crosses which is given on the A sixty four north. [Mr E Barnett:] Can can can yes can you just disregard the weighting. [D Whittaker:] Right. [Mr E Barnett:] Disregard the weighting. just. [D Whittaker:] Well I I say that that at the best I think it it's just a question mark or a dash. [Mr E Barnett:] Put a tick. Just put a tick or a cross, you know, which is what we're trying to do. [D Whittaker:] I think it's neither in in Ryedale's case. It supports the principal but not necessarily whether or not it should be in Ryedale. Because it's [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [D Whittaker:] never been considered by members. Is, are you saying then that the best answer to the question of is there a clear expression of local preference is, don't know? But reject the option of expansion of existing settlements? . I think the question is, if it is a clear expression of local preference it certainly isn't don't know. But It's not? whether it's, whether it's Well it's don't know because no one 's ever been up, no-one's ever asked the question of the people in any of the districts as to whether, you know a new settlement in their district is appropriate. But they have obviously an the members and the local have as agreed with the principal of a new settlement to meet the assessed development needs of the Greater York Area. So in in ef in effect that question should be could be divided into two parts. Local preference, no. Local authority er support, don't know, in Ryedale's case. Do you actually know local preference answer no? Yeah. No. Yeah. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [D Whittaker:] I thought I'd only got the flu! Erm [LAUGHTER] Suspect I shall need brain surgery by the end of the morning. [LAUGHTER] How d, I'm sorry I don't understand how you know the local preference is not for a new settlement. No, I don't. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I don't know what local preference is, in terms of where it should go. Because no one in any of the North Yorkshire area has been canvassed as to whether or not they should have a new settlement. But I do know that in s in the sort of southern southern Ryedale area, the support was definitely for a new settlement to meet the assessed needs of the Greater York area. Because it wasn't considered that that the level of housing required could be accommodated in that area. So the principal is supported both by the members and by the public. [Mr E Barnett:] Ah. [D Whittaker:] But the location isn't... yet. [Mr E Barnett:] So you have a local, you have support both by the local authority and quote the local population for the idea of a, for the idea of a new settlement? [D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Could, or could not be maintained depending on its location. Putting words in your mouth. But there there is no clear indication that south Ryedale or Ryedale district should be the recipient. There's no expression of support that Ryedale should be the recipient of a new settlement as yet? Because that question has not been posed. [D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Yeah. And in fact if if... if if er we look along this line, at the moment we as I said in my introduction we have two districts or three districts who have expressed support for the principal, and of those of those one has given a clear indication that it would, this might be too, er high a phrase, welcome a new settlement, within its district. Mr, that that is probably a clear expression of the of Selby as a local authority, that's a that's a clear expression of their stance, isn't it? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Er yes er it well, more more or less. Er I think perhaps er wel welcome er [Mr E Barnett:] Well er don't er er don't use the word welcome I have indicated... yes yes, alright [Mr Terry Heselton:] I I will qualify the the general spirit of what was said. [Mr E Barnett:] And now is that view also an expression of local preference or local support in terms of the public at large in Selby district? What has their their view been? [Mr Terry Heselton:] , Selby district. Erm the the public at large in Selby district have er been consulted to the same degree that that that all er districts were involved in the Greater York study. So in other words, acceptance of the of the principal in preference [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Terry Heselton:] to the alternative of of expansion of existing settlements. [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [Mr Terry Heselton:] But clearly they haven't been consulted on preferred locations. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. Mr. [Mr P Brighton:] [clears throat], Hambledon district council. There are two points er chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr P Brighton:] The first relates to er a point made by the senior inspector about the list in er paragraph thirty three of P P G three. I don't think that they can be taken to be in any particular order. Certainly not in a des descending order of importance. And I know that they are not prefaced by one two three or any other form of indication, which would er suggest that they are in any order. Erm, it's clearly states that a new settlement should be only contemplated where, and it's my opinion, that all those factors need to be met and they are not weighted within that er paragraph. The second point is that Hambledon's position on the new settlement erm is unambiguous. We have a clear resolution that it objects to the new settlement on the basis that it is not needed and cannot be justified. And the reasons er for that, it is not necessary to go into them again, we have been through them erm on the erm erm er previous days. I would say however, that it's not been tested whilst, and whilst there isn't a a clear expression of local preference in terms of the population, I think my elected members who represent that particular area would say that they are expressing local views when they have spoken against the new settlement. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Is it Miss or Mrs? Can I can I just take Mr first and then come to you? Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Harro Harrogate borough council. Just briefly to reiterate the borough council's position. Harrogate borough council have rejected er the continued expansion of er settlements around its sector of York and villages within the York green belt. We support the principal of a new settlement. Erm but my councillors haven't yet taken a view on whether there is a possible site in Harrogate district. Er the reason for that is as already mentioned, that a comprehensive assessment hasn't been done. When that comprehensive assessment is available, er my members will take a view. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Miss [Mr Terry Heselton:] for. I really just wanted to speak in support of. The point I'd like to make is that we're here representing and a number of the parish councils in the Selby area. The fact that they've chosen to have somebody representing them in objection to the new settlement proposal I think is as strong an indication as you can get that the local people don't actually support the council on this point. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yep. [D Whittaker:] That refers exclusively to parish councillors in Selby district? [Mr Terry Heselton:] The people I'm representing are, but obviously [Mr E Barnett:] Yep. [Mr Terry Heselton:] there are other people around the table saying that for other districts. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes your your view relates to parishes in a part of Selby district? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Yes, that's right. But it it tends to be that [Mr E Barnett:] Yep. [Mr Terry Heselton:] much of the area that would be under consideration for a new [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. yep [Mr Terry Heselton:] settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] Well it's the sector west of the Ouse, isn't it? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Yes it is. [Mr E Barnett:] It, it Yes. Yeah. Mr did you want to come back on something? [Mr P Brighton:] No. [Mr E Barnett:] Well are we in a position now to put ticks or crosses against two on the list in table one? In the light of what we've said? [speaker004:] got a lot more than ticks or crosses. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry? [speaker004:] got a lot more than ticks or crosses. [Mr E Barnett:] want to, or then again, pardon? No. No, no alright, no ok. Can we now move on to item item three what criteria three is under table one. Located within ten miles of York. Well in fact the discussion on Friday morning... went along the lines that the new settlement should be located within six to eight miles or six to ten miles. So I'm inclined to sort of look at it under those, er, within those distances and is there any descent with er... Mr 's analysis of his sectors, that they would fit within that er, those general distances? [D Whittaker:] Mr. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr R Girt:] , Leeds City council. I simply make the observation that ten miles is a rather arbitrary figure. And that the reality of geography is that people will chose to live or develop in accessible locations. Some of these roads mentioned as though the focus of the the sectors erm have a much higher capacity and much greater speed capability than others and in terms of relative accessibility to the centre of York, probably you could come further out west on the A sixty four than on perhaps on the B one three six three, for example. This this could take you into the Leeds district as being a suitable location for a settlement which would meet this criterion. And in fact it might be useful for you to know, chair, that proposals for new settlements have been made on the A sixty four corridor within Leeds. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, well I mean we're aware of that and of course we went through this question of distances on Friday. Erm, and I think there was a general agreement that we would look at this six to eight six to ten miles. Was there, was there not? I mean there are other factors which come into play, we accept that. But this is one of one of which we did agree was was a suitable factor to be considered in the er in the analysis. [D Whittaker:] Would the districts agree if the area of [break in recording] to eight miles. That there would be areas within those sectors which would be suitable for a new a new settlement.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [D Whittaker:] Certainly on the A sixty four corridor there is a belt of grade two land that sweeps in west to east. Er around the eight mile limit. I would prefer it to see it extended to ten miles if that sector was chosen. Purely so that the area of land, or the area of search could be expanded to possibly avoid areas of high quality agricultural land. So you would say yes to six to ten miles but Yes question mark six to eight? [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, sorry. Sorry. So has anybody got any com any other comments about the individual sectors in the light of that? Mr [Mr J Cunnane:] Sir. [Mr E Barnett:] We'll have to give you a new name. [Mr J Cunnane:] [LAUGHTER].. Just dealing with Mr 's point. We have in fact done some detailed agricultural surveys in this area of York. In fact the grade two land tends to be in the eight to ten mile band, rather than six to eight. It's a matter of fact rather than rather than rather than a matter what is shown on the one inch map. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Before we get on to this next item, would it be a suitable place to break for, time to break for coffee? Er and resume at twenty five to twelve. Thank you.... [break coffee] We've, I will remind you that we've had an expression of view from Ryedale about the district factor. Any of the other districts want to make comments about that? Any one else? Mr. [Mr Terry Heselton:] , Selby district. Just just to briefly say that er I would prefer the the the ten mile limit because of the greater flexibility that it will give. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Thank you, yes sorry? [D Whittaker:] Are you saying that six to eight miles would not be, you would not be able to find a location for a new settlement in [Mr Terry Heselton:] It would [D Whittaker:] either sector within six to eight miles? [Mr Terry Heselton:] It would limit the choice. [D Whittaker:] Sorry, that wasn't my question. [LAUGHTER] Blatantly it would limit the choice. [paper tearing] Is it, would it make it impossible? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Well I I'm I'm sorry, I really can't respond to that. [Mr E Barnett:] You'd lose the flexibility factor? Thank you. Any one else want to make any comments about this, or can I move on to what is headed in Mr 's criteria, area of no market demand, and... one in which we had described, and it may well be coincidental, mean the same thing, be in a location where people want to live.... Now who's going to make comments about the various sectors, Miss. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Fiona,. I just wanted to point out that on this criteria, it doesn't appear to be one that the county council has listed. And I think we should look at this in a, cautiously because, erm, it it doesn't refer specifically to York. I think it should be qualified and say area of no market demand related to York, settlement. This particular erm, problem with it being market demand, possibly from West Yorkshire, in certain locations. [Mr E Barnett:] It well I say one it was one of the aspects that was that tha that cropped up in our discussion about the criteria on Friday and as far as we're concerned, what we are trying to do is not er to exclude anything from the discussion in terms of er trying to locate or find a suitable location. We can't do that at this stage. So we felt it reasonable to put that into the pot for discussion. [Mr Terry Heselton:] But I I feel it should possibly be tied in with six, rather than being considered on its own. [Mr E Barnett:] Aha, [clears throat]. [D Whittaker:] Can we ask Mr how it was that he eliminated three sectors? Or put Xs, I beg his pardon, put Xs against three sectors? [Mr P Brighton:] Thank you. You anticipated a point I was going to make in fact. And that is I was just a little concerned that you were possibly considering an additional criterion, as I've got a note of it here. Being in a location where people wish to live. Because that's really erm a part of what I mean by this criterion. And I think probably erm there is another issue which is equally important and that is the question that it must be a location where people who develop employment wish to locate and erm and develop enterprises. Because I see it is of fundamental importance to achieving the environmental objectives for the new settlement and making it a decent place to live. That there is a real prospect of jobs going to that new settlement. And in my view, and I think this is a view shared by the county council. At least it's in one of their statements er on the new settlement issue. Erm the areas to the south and west of north, that's erm Harrogate and the Selby sectors, erm, I think are most able to offer erm a good location. And in that respect I think the A sixty four i is the better of those three sectors because of its existing dual carriageway link. And that is the basis in which I have scored this particular criterion in my table. [D Whittaker:] Can you us a bit more explanation as to why you say the first three sectors are better than the last three, in terms of employment? [Mr P Brighton:] Well if I could refer you, ma'am, to my paragraph three point seven of my supplementary statement, erm I do indicate there erm that the factors which make me believe that a location in this sector or these three sectors erm is a better one in far, as far as employment is concerned. It's it's much nearer the strategic road network. The A one, the A one M, M sixty two and M one, than any of the other sectors. And erm as I've said before the A sixty four corridor or the A sixty four road is already an existing high quality dual carriageway road. And there is the factor that there is a need to diversify the economy of York generally erm and also erm to ensure that the new settlement has an employment component. Both to provide for some self-containment, and thereby minimize the degree of out-commuting. And also as a, a to form a sort of living erm community where there is opportunity to work locally. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, then Mr then Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] Michael. In terms of being in the area where people want to live. I d I d, from certainly my experience of Greater York I don't think there is, er I I personally feel that all the sectors would be reasonably successful on that basis. Erm, I d I certainly can see the commercial success of a new settlement in the south east of York, or south west of York, but that's because it would be attracting commuters from West Yorkshire. Not not because it would be meeting the housing needs of York. Certainly we have done marketing studies of a Succe of a set in the north east of York, and they show that it would be commercially successful. And it would be attractive to people wanting to live in that area. In terms of the employment, in terms of employment, the first most important point is of course we are talking about, generating employment at a scale appropriate to the new settlement. We're not talking about a major business park for Greater York. Again, we have put in a letter from an agent which quite clearly shows in his professional opinion, that a new settlement would be successful. The employment base of a new settlement would be successful. And certainly there is a good deal of empirical evidence to show also that it would be successful. Most of the new employment creation around York has been in the northern sector, not in the southern sector. It has been commercially successful. Defton Airfield is on is the most important example. The A sixty four is capable of generating major employer gen er being attracted to major employers. And I er addressing your attention ma'am to, particularly to, the erm M A F F laboratory, which has been established at Sand Hutton, which is a maj, going to be a very major employer, located immediately adjacent to, well within this particular sector. I'm quite convinced that that the A sixty four corridor north east of York would fulfil the criterion which you refer to and and I think that in general all the sectors score reasonably well against this against this particular criterion. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr I think. [Mr R Girt:] [clears throat]. left, erm P P G twelve and the draft P P G thirteen has a thrust of guidance there that erm talks about a closer relationship between the home and the workplace. If you look at appendix five of my statement in which I've identified erm the key employers within the Greater York area, you'll see that there's a greater concentration in the north and north east, as as Mr has just said. You've got the M A F F erm development on the A sixty four corridor. You also have a concentration of retail and leisure development to the north and north east of York, in Monk Cross, your Clifton Moor and so on and so forth. And clearly I would say that rather than to cross it in that column shown to the A sixty four north that Mr shows, it should be the converse and at least a tick, if not two. [D Whittaker:] The two sectors being? [Mr R Girt:] Sorry I I'm I'm [D Whittaker:] You're [Mr R Girt:] saying to you that the that you should ei that that the A sixty four corridor has a close relationship to the existing employment areas [D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr R Girt:] to the north. [Mr E Barnett:] So you so so you would say the A sixty four north would be a favoured one in the context of this this criteria? Or what we like, [Mr R Girt:] Absolutely because we've [Mr E Barnett:] what we're talking about. [Mr R Girt:] That's right because you you've an ability there to locate housing close to existing employment as well as erm leisure facilities and retail facilities and that would, in my view would follow on advice in P P G twelve and P, draft P P G thirteen. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [D Whittaker:] In your opinion does that, do those comments apply to the other two sectors, north of York? [Mr R Girt:] Cer certainly it would be other sectors to the north of York can can draw some comfort from from that the the comment that I've made as well. [D Whittaker:] What about the the other three sectors, the first three sectors? [Mr R Girt:] These these are the ones to the south? [D Whittaker:] South and west. [Mr E Barnett:] South and west. [Mr R Girt:] Yeah, well they're obviously more distance away from the key employers to they aren't so well located. [Mr Peter Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire County Council. I suppose it's really proof of what er the approach that North Yorkshire County Council is taking on this issue because nothing is is as simple a as it seems. Mr and Mr, quite rightly as a matter of fact, suggest that er most of the employment development over the last ten years has taken place on the north side of York. That is absolutely factually correct. The reason is of course that that is where the opportunities have arisen through the planning process. On the south side of York and the south west of York, those oppor opportunities have not arisen. Because in the south and south west of York it has been very heavily constrained erm by green belt. Er, that hasn't been the case in the past with the er areas er to the north. So that's one side of the equation. On the other side of the equation if I look at Mr er sorry er Mr Mr scoring of four, I would find some of the crosses rather surprising. Er one has only to walk down the road here for example at Strensall... but equally, the first point I made would be to contradict perhaps what Mr and Mr have said er because the the difference in employment distribution is a reflection of the pop planning policies that have been followed over the last ten years. [D Whittaker:] How would you score the six sectors? Mr? [Mr Peter Davies:] Well Certainly I I I would take the view that erm erm County Council would take that overall the York area overall is an area er of quite strong demand. Er but it really needs to be looked at er in some detail. I think the York area's an attractive area er er for development. While there may be nuances between different r chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how s chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how we've marked on there where there were objections to the greenbelt local plan, largely to take areas out of the greenbelt towards of the edge of the greenbelt for development. And those are quite fairly distributed er all the way round York. Erm I wouldn't want to erm to go through this this exercise scoring two ticks, two crosses er on on on each of the sectors. A because the work hasn't been done What I'm trying to do is er to say give a balanced approach which seems to me to reflect the County Council's view that er you really can't do it on the basis of a a a quick subjective assessment, it really needs to be the result of a l of a detailed body of work. [D Whittaker:] I'm sorry Mr, I think we have to press you on this, can I can I take it from what you have said We have to press you because for the reasons we explained on Friday morning, we have to go through the sector sites, if only to find at the end it cannot be done. Can I take it from what you said that you would not differentiate between the sectors on this criterion? [Mr Peter Davies:] I'll repeat what I said chairman, and I hope it was helpful that in terms of er er demand, I think all sectors would indicate that there is erm er demand er development demand, marked demand erm right the way er around Greater York. What I cannot do er is advise you on how I would score one sector against another in respect of that because again, er we haven't looked at that in sufficient detail.... [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you, Mr? Thank you chair, David, York City Council. I'd just really like to pick up on the employment argument. Erm er to pick up on what Mr said, I think it's important to differentiate between the local employment requirements of the new settlement and the strategic employment question. Mr implies that a location to the South of York er would actually be better in strategic employment terms. Now whilst I might concur with that view if it was er well related to the A sixty four, in fact immediately adjacent to the A sixty four, I think given the criteria you've got that the new settlement clearly has to avoid the greenbelt, I think that actually any of the locations being ten miles s sorry six to ten miles outside of the York urban area, would play little role in meeting the strategic employment needs of the urban area. So I think actually it at that level, these sectors are really quite uniform. Erm I think possibly what's more important is the i potential protraction of local employment to those individual locations. And erm er my view would be that either of the north north east or southern sectors could accommodate suitable levels of development to meet local need. Thank you that's helpful. Mr and then Mr. [speaker004:] . Criterion ten of policy H two provides for a balanced unity with adequate land for employment. I think it's rather important in connection with the north eastern A sixty four sector to realize that and reference has been made to the M A F F Central Science Laboratory, that it was a condition specified by M A F F in nineteen ninety, that their site should be a green field site free of airborne pollution. And it was on that basis that they decided to go to the point near Sand Hutton where provision has now been made for them. If one realizes that there is inevitably some degree of pollution from certain types of industry, it seems rather un unlikely that that requirement of the M A F F would be satisfied, were industrial development to take place on the A sixty four northeastern corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to comment on that Mr or not? I mean are you saying Mr in actual fact if we take the reverse of what you what you said that the the M A F F establishment itself would would object to development being within a certain distance of its premises because of the requirements which they have in order to carry on their operations? [speaker004:] I don't [Mr E Barnett:] In in other words is there a safeguarding zone? [speaker004:] I I don't know whether M A F F would object, but they did lay down for the selection of their site. [Mr Peter Davies:] Peter, North Yorkshire, I hope Mr is not suggesting that it would be the intention of the County or the District pursuing the new settlement to er include within it er polluting industry. Quite clearly er [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Peter Davies:] that would not be the scenario that we would be looking at. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you chairman, Terry, Selby District. Erm I think Mr and and Mr between them have have covered most of what I wanted to say so I'll I'll just endorse those points but the the other matter. I think it it it's been suggested that er in s in some way that the employment aspect of the new settlement w would in some way prejudice erm regional objectors in in terms of Leeds regardment and I really just wanted to to flag up that that I can't accept that, given the scale of development that that's proposed. Erm e even if the erm the new settlement employment allowance was doubled, I can hardly see how twenty five hectares is is is going to prejudice Leeds' own er economic development plans. Particularly when when the City Council themselves are promoting in the region of a hundred hectares of of development adjacent to the A one well well outside the city. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yes yeah. Mr and then Mr. [Mr R Girt:] Just re Chris from Wood Frampton, just returning to the comments made by Mr, erm we are on behalf of the church commissioners promoting a new settlement proposal, immediately to the North of the M A F F Central Science Laboratory. Erm that isn't a constraint to consideration of new settlement sites in the A sixty four corridor. Erm when the church commissioners sold the land to erm M A F F for the Central Sc Science Laboratory, a Cordon Sanitaire was declared wh within which no development should take place which would not preclude any any sites Northeast of York. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr? [Mr P Brighton:] Paul,. If I could just respond to erm one point which I think was made by Mr who referred to the erm the York trading er Clifton Road Trading estates. Erm we have actually taken the views of one of the developers on that site and you'll see erm the letter that we received from him is included within our appendix nine. And I think he can be regarded as having had first hand and very real experience of the problems of developing erm employment uses in the Greater York area. And he gave a very clear view that erm a new settlement in the area to the south of York would be a much better prospect as a location for new inward investment into the area. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr are you [Mr Terry Heselton:] Sorry. [Mr E Barnett:] It's alright. Anyone else? Anyone else want to make any comments about under this item four? Can we move on and look at what Mr has er expressed as landscape impact. Er in fact the discussion on Friday was re tied back to the criterion in the County Council's er policy which says, [reading] be capable of being assimilated satisfactorily into the local landscape [] which in the course of the discussion, was erm extended to also take on board the possibility that it could be located where it may produce environmental improvements on the use of derelict land. And I don't think I don't think I'm leaving anything out on that and I don't think I'm misinterpreting where the discussion went on Friday. So in in terms of looking at this criterion, can you also er include within your thinking process, the need for the er or the possibility that the development of a new settlement could actually be a positive enhancement of the environment or make use of derelict land. Any comments? Mr? [Mr P Brighton:] Er... Michael, Hambledon district Council. Erm the first point I'd like to make erm on this issue erm is that Mr erm seems to have assessed this criterion solely with reference to landscape quality. I don't think that this is a valid approach. Erm the question is one of integration. Erm variation in topography, and degree of cover are all associated with landscape quality. But these are the very factors which can assist integration into the countryside, minimizing the urbanizing impact. Looking specifically at the two areas in Hambledon, erm I would point out a Mr appears to make a distinction between the two areas, now I'm not sure on what basis Mr does that, or whether he has undertaken some detailed landscape assessment, but I can say that Hambledon has commissioned a detailed landscape appraisal for its district wide local plan, which didn't show a distinction erm generally across that area. Erm the landscape within that area is generally flat. Erm that factor has enhanced its value for agriculture and intensification has led to a wholesale loss of features. The landscape is flat and open, erm the these these factors erm have reduced inter-visibility, long distance views erm are possible over extensive areas. Those man made features which are within that landscape are particularly prominent. That's just farm buildings and farms themselves. The Council believes it would be very very difficult to assimilate a lan erm a new settlement into this area successfully and that a new settlement in this a area would have an urbanizing impact far beyond the confines of the er immediate area. Looking at the particular issue of derelict areas erm within this area, er Hambledon doesn't erm believe that there are any areas which could be reclaimed or enhanced by a new settlement. Erm and I really would ask the panel on this particular issue erm to er look critically at the suggestion in P P G three, paragraph thirty three that a new settlement could upgrade areas of low landscape value. Erm from a personal point of view, I don't really find it credible that planking down fourteen hundred houses in the Vale of York could be said to improve landscape quality.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr Peter Davies:] Thank you chairman. Lindsay, er Harrogate Borough Council. Could I endorse a lot of what er Mr has said there, about er the issue being the ability of the landscape to assimilate er a major development. Not its inherent quality. Er many points which Mr has made about the nature of the landscape in the southern part of the Hambledon District, would apply equally to large tracts of er Harrogate District in terms of it being an open erm rural landscape, intensively farmed and relatively little woodland cover or topography to assist in the assimilation process. Erm I think that those are erm er disadvantages with which any er possible location in Harrogate er District would start and I don't think the assessment in Mr 's paper er accurately reflects either the criterion in the structure plan er in terms of assimilation, or indeed the nature of the landscape erm and what I know of it in the Harrogate District. Thank you chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr.... [Mr J Cunnane:] Er Joe, Associates. Erm it's can I draw attention please to a a erm report which you'll find in the Michael erm submissions in appendix two. Er where this is a report of the er County Council. Er if I can get date. Er it's sixth of January nineteen ninety two. Definition of for a new settlement around York. And I I would simply draw attention to paragraph two of that report er in the second last sentence in the paragraph it says Well I'd better actually read the er the whole paragraph. It says, [reading] The report concludes that on balance, the most appropriate area of research for a new settlement Greater York is the corridor along the A sixty four T on the North East of York. This area beyond the greenbelt will shortly benefit from the dualling of the A sixty four. The area contains no mineral workings, limited high quality agricultural land, and offers scope for assimilating a new settlement into the landscape []. Now if you then look at Mr 's scoring of the A sixty four north, it says, [reading] offers very poor performance []. Er I simply draw the attention of the panel to that to the obvious conflict between those two er conclusions. [D Whittaker:] What's your view? [Mr J Cunnane:] Well [D Whittaker:] Is it ticks or crosses? That sector. [Mr J Cunnane:] M my view about this is that it's it it is it is that this exercise is that it is er something which has been done very quickly and to my mind is not capable of providing the level of assessment that would be required. [D Whittaker:] No, sorry I wasn't asking for view on the exercise done by Mr. What I was asking was, in your view, does the A sixty four north sector landscape have the capacity to a absorb the new settlement? [Mr J Cunnane:] I haven't carried the exercise out but I would simply say that it's it's not valid to to do an exercise like this in the way that this is done. That's my view of it, er I I can't respond to you because I haven't done the exercise. So I can't give you my view. [D Whittaker:] Do you have a view about the sector around in Selby? [Mr E Barnett:] Around Tadcaster. [Mr J Cunnane:] Yes I I erm I I I certainly do er and [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr J Cunnane:] I I have to I I know that you're going you that that that you may suggest that er my view it's not capable of being assimilated but I think the the the basic view I have to put forward to you is that it is not necessary. It's as simple as that. It's like Mr said, this settlement is not necessary. If however er the panel differs with my view on that then I would certainly say that the area around Tadcaster could not satisfactorily accommodate a self contained settlement of the order that is proposed without serious damage to the landscape. [D Whittaker:] Why? [Mr J Cunnane:] Because of the level of urbanization that would be created in in i i in the area.... [D Whittaker:] Ian, Ryedale District. Erm that County Council report that Mr quoted was done without any detailed landscape assessment and I think that's a major failing of that report in its conclusions. Erm a new settlement is going to be difficult to assimilate into any landscape, to locate fourteen hundred dwellings and associated community facilities anywhere in the in the Vale of York is is gonna be very difficult. Unless you locate it either in the middle of a wood or at the bottom of a quarry. Erm I think in the first instance, an assessment needs to be done of all the la of the landscape quality and I would suggest that it ought to be directed away from from areas of high landscape quality, towards areas of a lower landscape quality. Erm the new settlement isn't r demand is there. And I chart, er could indicate that we demand is there. And I chart, er could indicate that we by structure planting. to help it to assimilate. I don't think they question necessarily assimilation of the settlement now, but assimilation in the settlement in the it becomes developed. What's your assessment of sector six in those terms?... Ryedale? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. [D Whittaker:] Yeah. I think I think in landscape terms, it's probably one of the best sectors. Erm and certainly there are belts of woodland there which could screen it to a certain extent. Erm but I I would have thought that it would have been necessary to examine that sector against all the others before reaching any conclusion as to whether or not i it could be more successfully assimilated into the landscape of that sector as opposed to anywhere else.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr you wanted to come back? [Mr Peter Davies:] Yes just a point of clarification. Peter, North Yorkshire. The report has been referred to twice as the County Council report. That is incorrect, the report has never been considered by a committee of the County Council or indeed by the County Council. not even the between the officers who tried to er to produce it. it at best could be described as a an early attempt to make progress, but there's no commitment on behalf of the County Council or I suspect, by the relevant district councils to er that report. They also I suspect, not having seen it. [Mr E Barnett:] C just to be accurate on the status of the the the document. I mean it was a report it must have been to the member authorities, was it a progress report or deliberations? [Mr Peter Davies:] It was a report that was it it was a report [Mr E Barnett:] It is it is a publicly available document. Is it? [Mr Peter Davies:] It's never been as far as I'm aware to erm any committee of county or district. I think erm I think that's that's a matter of er er fact. It was pro it was an attempt by an early attempt by the officers of the Greater York technical group to try and make progress. The officers comprising that who couldn't agree on its er on its on its content. So it has no official status whatsoever and has not been a subject of consideration by the County Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Okay thank you, thanks for the clarification. Er Mr, the Mr, Miss and then Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Thank you chairman. Lindsay, Harrogate Borough Council. Erm one small piece of information I erm forgot to mention erm previously which is the possibilities for derelict and degraded land within er the Harrogate sector. Erm within the six to ten mile band there are just two er fairly small er areas er which I believe are both less than ten acres in extent. At Topwith and Green Hammerton respectively. Er which I don't think would make the focus for a new settlement proposal. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [speaker004:] , I take the view that the A sixty four north eastern sector has higher landscape value that most of the others in fact all of the others. And that therefore it would be all the more difficult in terms of er P P G three to ensure a positive environmental improvement from the construction of a new settlement. And I would also draw attention to a particular consideration namely that between the outer boundary of the greenbelt in that corridor and the area of outstanding natural beauty of the Hills, there is very little distance. Flaxton village falls almost equidistant between the two boundaries. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Fiona,. I just wanted to set out for you we don't agree with the assessment on landscape impact on the A sixty four south. Erm principally this area is wide open farmland so long views of a new settlement will be provided and it'll be very difficult to try and disguise that in any way. Erm but it it's not just the views of the settlement which I think should be under consideration here. Erm it's also the infrastructure that will be required by such a settlement. Much of the erm sector which is east of the A sixty four is very isolated from existing roads and the only access into that area is over the A sixty four or from the A sixty four. New roads that would need to be provided would therefore have to come from that direction and and it itself will cut a swathe through the open countryside. So no by the relevant district councils indicate that we haven infrastructure that goes with it will have a very big impact on that area. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [Mr P Brighton:] Paul, Planning Partnership. Erm first of all, as I grapple with this problem over the weekend, it did seem to me very difficult to make any sensible assessment of integration on a at a strategic level because so clearly it is a site specific matter. It depends on the problems and opportunities in terms of hedgerows, small scale variations in topography and so on. And it occu It seemed to me therefore that really one could only consider this level o at a strategic issue by looking at the quality of the existing landscape and it seems to me, if the proposition is that you should locate a new settlement to the erm North in the Ryedale sector, er of Greater York, then you're effectively turning planning on its head because I think the usual approach is to try and steer development to less attractive areas rather than put them in better quality areas. And I think that's what underpins the advice in Planning Policy Guidance note number three which is seeking to use the new settlement as a mechanism for improving the n the er the landscape. And in that respect I agree with the sentiments that have been er given by Mr. Erm you've also asked for specific erm advice on whether there is any disused or derelict land in the sectors. I am very familiar with one sector and can assure you there is a disused aerodrome which would be eminently suitable as er a new settlement site and that's in the A sixty four south corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] Michael. Can I just take the panel back through the er l back to basics on this matter in terms of the Greater in terms of Greater York and the the areas searched, firstly I think the first point of fact, there's no part of that sector as far as I'm aware that's subject to any landscape designations either national or local. The only county-wide survey, the one of importance to you ma'am is contained within the North Yorkshire Conservation Strategy of which I think you've been referred to already. And Ma'am that shows you I think er the chairman has it open in front of you. Erm that this is an are the whole of this area apart from the east side where which is of course greenbelt, is an area which has been defined as a as a landscape which has suffered character character loss through agricultural change or urban intrusion of a major scale. It's either major or large scale, I can't actually read from my key particularly well. But it's erm quite substantial. So we're not dealing here with an area of particularly high landscape quality in a county-wide sense or indeed a national sense. The best which you can put it is that all the whole of the area of search is an area of of moderate quality which is appreciated by the people who live within it. The main distinction I think you will find when you tour round Greater York is is that the distinction is between areas of intensive agriculture where of course you have the w which is to the west and to the south of the city, where you in fact have the highest quality of agricultural land, and the areas to the north where you have the lower quality agricultural land and therefore you have greater retention of cover. In terms of derelict land ma'am, very much a great deal. The fact is that I think in the sense that from the north west. The only criticism which has been made of the c se the A sixty four sector north east of York is that there i significant amount of cover ma'am. And that in fact lends itself to be to a new settlement being assimilated into the landscape completely in accord with the criterion of H two. And ma'am just to deal with one point which was made raised by Mr in his statement, I cannot we we have un undertaken a very detailed landscape analysis. Our landscape has concluded that there could be no no prospect of any damage to form the O A O M D i if there is development in this this sector. We are talking about s several miles ma'am and I can I can't just conceive of i of how that could could occur. And ma'am on a further point which I think is very significant when you're dealing with proposals in the A sixty four south of York, is you have to take into account not only the impact of the new settlement itself, but the impact of associated infrastructure. And of course what Mr does not refer to in any of his submissions n is the need for new settlements in that area to be have to have very long access roads. In fact the proposal which he's promoting needs a three mile new road cutting across the landscape. Which will have a very severe impact indeed and ma'am, that needs to be taken into account. goes to the question of landscape impact. And ma'am, just on a brief note of clarification, the report which has been referred to was a report prepared by the County Planning Officer, endorsed and I think was prepared in his name and was presented t to a working party of Greater York authorities. The Grea it was the Greater York authorities ma'am who who as I understand determined not to proceed with a location within the third alteration, and that was endorsed by the County Council when they first considered the draft plan. I think that's the correct factual position. [Mr Peter Davies:] The correct factual position is as I said that er the County Planning Committee or the County Council has not considered that document. Erm er it was not acceptable to the officers and the limited number of members that looked was not acceptable to them. [D Whittaker:] Can I come back to you please Mr? I'm well accustomed to being called sir. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [D Whittaker:] Erm on this occasion please remember we have a chairman, not just me here. More importantly, if you were doing the exercise Mr did over the weekend, how would you score the sector? On criterion five? [Mr J Cunnane:] On crite [D Whittaker:] ... [Mr J Cunnane:] I think the A sixty four north has should be given the highest score and I think that's not not a [yawn] view, that's also the view of the County Planning Officer at the time of the report. Erm [D Whittaker:] I could have guessed that. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [D Whittaker:] Have you anything to say yourself? [Mr J Cunnane:] The A sixty four south ma'am, I I have some sympathy with Mr with Mr 's views that in fact, the A sixty four is an e area where the landscape quality's not high. However I tend to score it much much on a much lower scale because A of the need for the associated infrastructure involved, that will have a very severe impact, and B ma'am the landscape quality, there is the area is of some is of some quality, it is not an area of derelict land as I say. In the in the sense I associated with working Wigan for example. In terms of the the A nineteen also I think scores reasonably highly on this criterion, the A nineteen south... cos again I I would have thought that it does lend itself to assimilation of a new settlement. The A fifty nine north, the A fifty nine the A nineteen north and the B one three six three, I agree with the district councils, it would be very difficult cos of the character of the landscape to assimilate a new settlement within them.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr P Brighton:] Thank you sir, Paul, Planning Partnership. Can I just express my e concern that erm Mr is using this examination in public as a an opportunity to knock other schemes in the Greater York area. I don't think that was the purpose of the erm the E I P and certainly my evidence has not been er produced in that way and it relates solely to sectors. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you yes, I mean our purpose is not here to try and judge competing bids for the new settlement, but to try to come to if we can, objective appraisal of if we are minded to recommend the new settlement, could we in fact come up with a district location. No more than that. Miss. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Fiona,. I just wanted to clarify the point about derelict land in the A sixty four south corridor, which erm have referred to. Erm there is a disused aer aerodrome in this area, but it is in in itself to a great ex extent assimilated into the farmland around the area. This is very attractive farmland, wide open fields, very intensively farmed, erm it's very difficult to spot the aerodrome from driving round the area at all, erm some of it's been taken up and incorporated into fields. Where it hasn't, the farmers are using generally for storage areas, that sort of thing a and access. I it's not what you would call erm derelict land really. [Mr E Barnett:] Not as defined with the D O E terms. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Which are? [Mr E Barnett:] . [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]... [Mr E Barnett:] Anyone else wish to pursue... their comments on this particular criterion? If not can we move on to six which er in Mr 's... shorthand is [reading] area likely to meet Greater York needs []. Er the County Council's... statement. Er now then [reading] Be in locations which best serve all development needs arising in Greater York. Now are any of the sectors people consider match that or fail to match that criterion? Are some better than others?... If so, which ones?... Or are they all equally great? []... [Mr J Cunnane:] Sir... Sir I was hoping that somebody else would start. [LAUGHTER] Erm sir I I think this is clearly You've heard a great deal about this [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr J Cunnane:] I don't think I I need to repeat much of that which was said on Thursday and on Friday. There's there's I think there's general consensus among most r around most of the table that a location south and west of York would would tend to meet the needs of the West Yorkshire conurbation, rather than that of the Y Greater York area. Whereas locations to the north of York, and here we're dealing with here ma'am er dealing sir with the A sixty four north and the B one three six three and the A nineteen north would tend to serve the needs of Greater York. And certainly should be clearly be preferred on that basis. Particularly when of course one looks at w criterion eight little A. Because of course the two are inseparably linked. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr J Cunnane:] Erm Joe, Associates. Er I think Michael has made the point er but could I just draw attention the regional erm the strategic and sub-regional policy point that erm I wished to emphasise er and I would refer to the Greater York study... w e e of sixty one. Er says in in the second sentence of the paragraph that locations most readily accessibly to West Yorkshire conurbation are likely to stimulate competition within the housing market to the potential detriment of local residents and lead to pressure for addis additional land releases. Basically just to put some flesh on the bones of what Michael has said that that is a view of the w of the Greater York study that erm the A sixty four south corridor is more likely er to... er serve the needs of Leeds then it is to serve the needs of of of York. And therefore, the point I would make is that I disagree with the weighting or the the two ticks given to the A sixty four south in in Mr 's assessment. And equally I disagree with the very poor performa poor sorry poor performance given er er in particular to the A nineteen north. Erm I think as Mr said, there does seem to be a fair degree of erm consensus around the table with the exception of that er a location in the Leeds York corridor would be less likely to serve the needs of of erm of York than than location on the north side. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr R Girt:] Dave, Leeds City.... Chair you will not be surprised to hear me coming yet again to s to raise the point about regeneration in West Yorkshire and to say that I agree with Mr and M Mr but I find myself agreeing also with Mr 's written comments in his paragraph three sixteen where he clearly points to the fact that settlement in this south west quadrant would serve West Yorkshire perhaps more so than N than York. Encouraging migration from West Yorkshire, from Leeds in particular, more so than the other sectors. Which is I think is implied by his suggestion that a settlement there would intercept some of the housing demand. In other words, people wishing to settle to to buy a house in this new settlement would competing. York residents would be competing against West Yorkshire residents.... [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yeah. You're putting a slightly different er interpretation on what he said there aren't you. Yeah. Mr. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Er thank you chairman Terry, [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Selby district. Er just for the record really it's erm Mr Mr er 's not necessarily alone er in in his views, and and Selby District doesn't necessarily accept the view that erm development in this location would be prejudicial to West Yorkshire. Erm... although we we haven't really really discussed this, I suspect that given the the scale of development proposed in in Selby District, it's it's quite likely on the basis of what I've heard from Mr, that Leeds are going to raise objections to development on on the western side of Selby District generally because that that area is just as close to Leeds. Erm that being the case, if if those objections were were sustained, er you know, going back to what was was said last week, then I think Selby might be in difficulties in in meeting its housing requirement. There are other potential locations within the district that would take a significant amount of development other than a new settlement. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [D Whittaker:] I find some difficulty in understanding the argument that's coming from Leeds City Council, bearing in mind the emphasis you placed last week. I shall repeat that cos I can see those in the back row couldn't hear. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [D Whittaker:] I find a little difficulty in understanding the basis of your argument Mr, given the point you made last week about the need for Yo North Yorkshire as a whole to cater for one hundred percent migration, so as to make adequate provision for those coming from Leeds. [Mr R Girt:] Dave, Leeds City. This er a question that Mr raised last Thursday of Friday and which I thought I'd clarified Leeds position on. We we draw a clear distinction between provision in Craven, Harrogate, Hambledon where constraint was suggested spread over fifteen years on dispersed housing sites. The impact of that on Leeds residents perception of the migration opportunities is quite different quite different from a new settlement on a very accessible corridor which would have to be promoted and would have to be built quickly to be... to present itself as a successful venture. That would be a clear magnet to erm Leeds residents and to those seeking locations for new employment opportunities.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, Mr and then Mr. [speaker004:] Tony Tony,. I would like to see the definition of satisfactory a access extended also to include the [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry we haven't got there yet Mr. We're still on with six. [speaker004:] I do apologize. [Mr E Barnett:] Just hold your fire. Mr. [speaker004:] , Flaxton. In my opinion, taken as a proportion of travelling time by persons travelling by car from employment in the Leeds conurbation to the York area, the... extra involved in travelling past York on the A sixty four, is quite slight and there's plenty of evidence that numbers of people er travel to the Leeds conurbation from the north eastern part of York by [clears throat] by the A sixty four regularly. Therefore the disadvantage associated with the south western sector from the point of view of attracting commuters from Leeds, is less than it might be thought. [Mr E Barnett:] I think it's a point that was also raised by Mr in our discussions on Friday, where he said of course, with the advent of the better orbital road around York he f he he felt that it probably was not such a material factor. But I mean it's people's perceptions isn't it about travelling it's quite material. Mr? [Mr R Girt:] Dave, Leeds City. Y yes chair it's all about relative accessibility and simply improving roads more distant from Leeds will make them relatively more accessible but not more accessible than locations closer to Leeds. There are people who commute to Leeds from very distant positions, but they are penny numbers. And the greater the distance, the greater the the travel time, the fewer people make that journey. And including in that travel time, must be the congestion which they will face as they approach Leeds which which already is er a difficult problem. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Mr? [Mr P Brighton:] Paul,Paul, Partnership. Er Mr has referred to his preference for the release of lots of small sites on the basis that erm they will be er Leeds residents would be less aware of them than if all the sites are collected together in the form of a new settlement. I mean I think that is er nonsense quite honestly, I think any housing or industrial developer, if he has a site will promote it in erm a market and I don't think really there is a distinction bet to be drawn between either of those planning strategies on that point. Could I also just erm perhaps point out that half of the assessed development land needs for the Greater York area, certainly in respect of residential development, includes a an element for in migration and therefore it is it would not be altogether surprising if wherever the new settlement is located around York, some Leeds residents er chose to live there. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] Michael. I would just take a It seems to me that quite clearly that a new settlement in the A sixty four corridor south, would stimulate migration at levels which would not otherwise have taken place and that is the key objection to it. If there will continue to be migration from from Leeds and that is obviously incorporated in the population projections produced by the County Council. The effect of a new settlement south east of York would be to increase those levels so that people with from Greater York, would find would not be able to find accommodation within the new settlement and therefore the total housing requirement of Greater York would be increased and housing needs would not be met. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Roy Donson:] Roy Roy, House Builder's Federation. I have great difficulty coming to terms with all that was being said under H one about migration and the relationship to Leeds and the idea that it matters enormously in the realm exactly where this new settlement, which I hope does go ahead, actually goes. It seems to me that all that we would be doing would be substituting one area for another in effect in terms of where that development is attracted from. Er and er quite clearly is er Leeds migrants in migrants were were attracted er to to somewhere in in in the south er there would be less main migrants since we're working to a ceiling, er would be attracted elsewhere. And the reverse is also true, that if more in migrants were attracted to the north east of York then there would be people would not attracted elsewhere. Because we are working to a ceiling. Erm it would seem to me therefore that if we're working in terms of ticks and crosses, that area likely to meet Gre Greater York needs, you ought to have a tick against all of them. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you, anybody else want to raise anything on criterion six, or can we move to seven? Which I would like to aim to complete by lunchtime so we can resume afresh on the others at five thirty. Erm seven comes headed satisfactory access, but can I remind you of the County Council's er criterion which w which is [reading] Have good access or be able to provide good access, to the primary road network, but avoid unacceptable traffic consequences on any single part of the network. An ability to link into the rail network to provide for local commuter services into York would i would be an advantage. [] and coupled with that, is the possibility of maximizing or enabling the provision of improved public transport facilities. So can you er look at it in that light and you will see of course that and I can understand why Mr has done it in this way, he has actually broken down er his the approach to this to to looking at this criterion, under the three heads, road, rail and bus. Because in some sectors the rail network actually does not come into the equation. Or may not come into the equation. Any comments?... On the way in which he has assessed n not the points scoring but the the assess er er assessed the various sectors although he has erm given a extra scoring to two sectors, the A sixty four south and also the Harrogate sector. This is in the rail sense. And he's underscored Selby east and also Hambledon. Mr. [Mr R Girt:] Chris from Wood Frampton. In assessing the impact that rail travel's going to have in terms of travel patterns form the new settlement, I think that one important consideration that the panel should have regard to is the location of York's s station relative to the City Centre. I'm s sure sir, you're aware it's outside the City walls and if you're commu commu If rail travel is possible from a new settlement to the Town Centre, the actual nu proportion of people using the rail, I would submit it would be very small, because say if you're a shop worker in er Marks and Spencers, then you've got a considerable walk from York City Station for example. Also, the main employment areas that both erm Michael and myself have referred to to the north and north east of York have no rail link. So clearly in that light I would say that rail and bus need to be bracketed together so a an ability to erm serve the new settlement by public transport becomes the key consideration.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr J Cunnane:] Er Joe, J C Associates. Erm on on the point about road access, I'd simply point out that the it it is acknowledged by the Department of Transport, and in fact there's a study under way I believe to to look at this, that the A sixty four in the York, Selby area er in the Leeds York corridor, is already subject to congestion and peak hour er delays. Erm the information that I have available to me would suggest therefore that the A nineteen erm when it's dualled would be a superior and therefore to get a better score erm on on that criterion. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? Thank you chair. Erm I'd like to comment particularly on the impact of that the different sectors have within the City of York, cos that's clearly our main concern. Erm the City Council does act as agent for the highway authority within the City of York and actually maintains a a tra transportation model er in conjunction with the County Council with the County Surveyor. Clearly you understand from my comments last week, we consider any of the any of the options be to be bad in terms of their traffic impact on the City. But we did did take the opportunity over the weekend to actually run our traffic model er at a very crude level, I have to estimate. Er emphasis rather. To give an indication as it were which in terms of within the City of York, which would be the least worse of the options. Erm if I could sir, refer you to your ordnance survey plan which shows the the highway network as it enters the City. Yeah, carry on Mr. I think it's important for you to to recognize, you'll see form that plan that all the major radials end up on the York inner ring road. And whilst you've heard comment from Mr last week about the County Surveyor's view that the capacity of the radials really outside the City and also as they enter the City, the key impact within the City of York is on the inner ring road, because all the traffic tends to end up there. Having examined the various sectors er we've come to the view that there are three sectors which are least worst in that effect, erm which is the north east sector, south east and the south west. In terms of the impact they have on the traffic system in the city. The difference between them is I have to admit at this level, relatively marginal in terms of er which is the worst and which is the best between the three. But our conclusion is that in fact the south east sector is the er least harmful of the three, but the south west sector is the next least harmful and that in fact, somewhat surprisingly I must admit, that the north east sector is actually the worst of those three. That is because it feeds on to the most congested part of the York inner ring road which is the er Gillygate erm Lord Mayor's Walk section. Which has the most severe congestion problems. The reason why we differentiate between the south east and south west is also important because the southern of the bridges, the Skeldergate Bridge in York is by far the most heavily congested on the inner ring road and in particularly in going in the west to east direction, so the south west sector scores worse in that respect because it feeds traffic on to the most congested bridge of the inner ring road. So that's our assessment in terms of the the highway impact. Can I just comment on the on the other two criteria while I'm speaking sir to help you? Erm I think it's important to recognize in rail terms that erm the east coast main line, erm particularly obviously er the section heading north, British Rail would not allow er a new station opening on the east coast main line, so you have to confine yourselves to looking at those which have a a regional railway route. Erm and I would just comment on Mr 's er criteria assessment that I fail to see any difference really between any of the three re er regional routes in terms of the potential of opening a station on any of them. I can't see how you can score against the north east sector on that respect, er because there is there is no station currently serving the south west sector that I'm aware of, so clearly in both cases you need to provide a new station. Yeah. And finally just in terms of er public transport, I think it's fair to say that there there's probably little in it between them all because they're all very poorly served by public transport. At the present time. Yeah. Just just by way of informa information, the regional routes rail network, you're talking about the Harrogate line, the one to Scarborough and? And the Leeds line that Leeds line. that passes down to the south west sir, yes. Thank you.... Mr [speaker004:] Tony, Connell. Er with regard to the means of satisfactory access, I think it's also necessary to take into account er the need to reduce car dependency. Er this is a strategic issue and it can lead to pos a positive environmental improvement. This has been implied er in Mr 's analysis of road, rail and bus and clearly there is to be integration between all three systems but particularly er with regard to the bus er method of tran public transport as this is most likely to be accessible. The integration between road and bus certainly can be met by park and ride interchanges. And consequently I think the er probably locations of park and ride facilities around the periphery of York, is a factor that should be taken into account when selecting a most appropriate transport corridor. There is at the present time a park and ride facility on the south western side of York er on the er Tadcaster Road and er another one is being proposed on the eastern side at Grimston Bar adjacent to the A sixty f [clears throat] Excuse me, A sixty four trunk road. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. So you you would say that was a material factor in influencing possibly er which sector you would look at? [speaker004:] Sorry sir? [Mr E Barnett:] I said, you you would say that was a material influencing factor, the provis the likely provision of a park and ride scheme? [speaker004:] Indeed. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Thank you. Miss. And then Mr.... [Mr Terry Heselton:] Fiona,. I really wanted to erm stress under this section the erm particular isolation again of that area in the south south west sector of York erm f from the point of view of road access in particular. This area is very isolated from existing roads, the A sixty four is the only link in. Erm re any any proposal in that sector would require quite a long lead in to the A sixty four and that obviously would be contrary to P P G twelve which requite that development should be er minimize the car journeys and the requirement for car journeys. Erm... Oh sorry. [LAUGHTER].... So really what I'm saying is that it h would have an undue impact on highway network and in particular on that particular erm strand of it. The County's policy actually says that it should erm avoid unacceptable traffic consequences on any single part of the network. Well it's obvious that any er settlement in that area would have an impact on the A sixty four as that's the only access into that area. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr J Cunnane:] Michael. I I going to weight of of criteria first of all, I think this very great weight should be applied to this criterion because obviously if you cannot serve the new settlement satisfactorily then it shouldn't be developed in that location. In terms of taking we we have a put in a detailed traffic impact study which you'll have seen in with our report. If I can just summarize what it found. In terms of the A nineteen south, that is already operating at capacity. This of course is a trunk road. There are no plans whatsoever for its improvement, it couldn't be improved satisfactorily to se just for the new settlement. And I don't think there is any realistic way in which it could cope with the flows of a fourteen hundred dwelling new settlement. And that is also the view of our planning consulta er of our highway consultant. In terms of the A sixty four south, although it is a a dual carriageway, again it is operating at capacity in in in the stretch which you would need to serve the new settlement. And it al and proje on any projected traffic flows, you'll be operating well over capacity by the time in which the new settlement is developed. Again, it is difficult to see how that could satisfactorily cope with the demands of the new settlement as well, given its key role as a regional route. In terms of the A fifty nine and A nineteen north, again they're operating over capacity. Er at er presently operating at capacity, and would be well over capacity if if the new settlement was tagged on and again there are there is no scope or plans for their improvement. And similarly the B one three six three, the same comments apply. That leaves the only main radial which is the A sixty four north. Now... there there is the scheme by the Department of Transport to upgrade it to dual it u as far to to Malton and then beyond subsequently. Ma'am, sir I should say, erm Mr makes certain comments about there are doubts about whether this scheme will go forward, we have been in contact with Department of Transport, again to try and give you the correct factual position. The the words which we have been given by the product engineer, is that the Department of Transport, and that was his words, committed to this scheme. The public consultation exercise was undertake last year to gauge public reaction. The s the the details, and stressed the details of the scheme, are currently being reexamined in the light of these comments and the surveys which are now complete. And they are now working to this timetable for the road. There will be a public the orders will be published next year in Autumn, ninety four, a public enquiry mid ninety five, decision ea in early ninety six, a start in ninety seven and completion in nineteen ninety nine. Ma'am when sir when this when this road when these when it is dualled, it will have compl adequate capacity to serve the new settlement and will be the only radial route around Greater York which could do so satisfactorily. We have I have got I we have produced for you today, some detailed plans showing you what the capacities are of the routes, what the present flows are and what the effects of the new settlement will be upon those capacities. If we could put those in to you subsequently. They are currently in the course of preparation. Cos I think this is a matter you need the factual evidence. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Mr J Cunnane:] Now can I just can I just deal again with the question of public transport? I I give very great weight to the need for the new settlement to be on a public transport corridor. The A sixty four north is such a public transport corridor, there is already a very regular bus service along that route. Th it also has the potential to have new stations opened up along that route, both to serve existing communities and there are plans within the Southern Ryedale Local Plan already for new stations to be opened up. We have had discussions with British Rail who confirm that in principle they have no objections to such new stations. And this is a further factor in favour of the A sixty four north. The t turning to the other sectors, it's quite correct there is capacity there is there is scope for example along the A fifty nine corridor, for new stations. But there is no scope along the A sixty four south. It is I think I must emphasise, Mr refers in his evidence to the fact that there there is an existing station along this radial route. What he omits to say is that new station is south of the River Wharfe and there are no bridges over which anyone can get to that new station from the area f search. And frankly it might as well be on the moon in terms of its accessibility to the area of search. And th and can I restate the view of British Rail, there is little or no prospect of a new station being opened up on the east coast main route main line, because of the four track configuration, which I'm sure you'll have seen on your when you've come up to York by tr by train. So I think the inescapable logic of of this and I think this was accepted by and it's accepted by the County Surveyor certainly if not by the County Planning Officer, is that the new settlement for access reasons, should be on the A sixty four north east corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for that. Mr and then Mr. I think I'll make Mr positively the last one before lunch. [Mr P Brighton:] Erm Michael, Hambledon District Council. Thank you chairman, there are two points I would wish to make. The first relates to a point r raised by Mr where he er asserted that the A nineteen er was to be dualled. This is not the case, there are no plans to dual the A nineteen north of York. There are proposals for a number of bypasses which are relatively limited, erm throughout the majority of its length it will remain single carriageway. The second point relates to the er issue of public transport. Erm and in particular, potential for rail access and I would like to endorse what Mr has said, and what Mr has said. Erm we believe that this is something that the panel should pay particular regard to, bearing in mind the government's advice to reduce the need for for travel. Erm and we would point out that er since the nineteen sixties there have been something like two hundred new stations opened erm on the rail network, the vast majority of these have been on Regional Railways. There are very few on Intercity routes. Those that have been opened on Intercity routes, are at major rail heads where they can perform as major transport interchanges, such as Bristol. There have been no stations opened up at settlements of this size. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [D Whittaker:] Ian, Ryedale District. Yes really it's just supporting or confirming what Mr said, which we did as part of the Southern Ryedale Local Plan, we contacted British Rail, and they were not averse to the reopening of stations on the York Scarborough line, providing they were funded by private investment. Erm on that I also point out that in terms of commuting, the next stop after York is Leeds, so a settlement on the A sixty four corridor is ideally placed with regards to rail transport, to the centre of Leeds.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr Peter Davies:] Again, perhaps a point of clarification to be to be helpful. As far as the County Highways Authority's concerned, I think they've made it quite clear that as a matter of principle, when they considered the new settlement, the new settlement proposal was then around nineteen hundred dwellings, larger than what is being proposed at the moment. That as a matter of principle, there would be no objection in principle to a new settlement in any of the sectors that we're discussing today. But there would of course be a greater or lesser requirement for additional roadworks as a result of that proposal, which would need to be the subject of negotiation. But certainly there was no objection in principle from the County Council's Highway Authority and acting as agents for the Department of Transport, as trunk road agent, as a matter of principle, to any of the sectors that we've been discussing today. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr is it a very quick one? [Mr P Brighton:] It is sir, yes, very very swift hopefully. Paul, Partnership. The work which our consulting engineers have done in conjunction with engineers from York City Council, show in very broad terms, that the existing radial routes within the Greater York area, were all in the period around about nineteen ninety one, all operating at more or less, design capacity. There is some movement either way, but in broad terms and it seems to me what proponents of other sectors are doing basically, is suggesting that their particular segment is better because of erm possible improvements which may or may not take in the future. And it is it seems to me quite within the realms of possibility that erm highway erm criteria will change and the need for upgrading of the roads would be reviewed and perhaps a different system erm of er judging them er would produce a different set of or a different improvement regime. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you I I have no other points Unless a has anybody got wants to pursue the communications issue after when when we reconvene at five thirty, otherwise I'm quite happy. I must say that the way the discussion has gone this morning, is n I would say, slightly disappointing because there is some attempt to make a positive contribution, but at the moment it's not necessarily pointing us quite in the direction which we would hope to go. So can I ask those of you you know to think carefully about what you want to contribute a particularly those of you who who have asked the panel to come forward with a recommendation on a location for a new settlement. That's if we're minded to approve or recommend for approval, the new settlement. Can I ask you to think carefully about those dire those issues factors which you think we ought to take into account if we want to be better informed in order to come forward with that sort of a recommendation. So I'll see you again at five thirty, can I say again I'd like to conclude H two tonight, I'm sure you all would as well. Erm... let's yes alright we'll see you at five thirty, let's hope we can conclude by about seven thirty. Thank you. [tape change]

[speaker001:] The item or the issue for discussion this afternoon is [reading] Is there a need for an A fifty nine, A sixty one, Harrogate relief road? []. Er and I have to remind you that the panel has to be concerned primarily with the need. Erm but we'll see how you go in presenting your cases. But I don't really want you to stray into detail which is not necessarily within our remit to er to consider. I propose that Mr will make the opening statement and then I'll turn to Mr and then Mr are you speaking on behalf of the Residents' Association? Thank you. Er and then if you will come in after Mr. I might say that the members of the panel have actually read all your submissions, so don't feel obliged to go through them word for word in the same way as for example, you might be presenting a proof at a planning enquiry. I want really if if if if you would, to point up the major issues, the major points as you see them. Mr sorry Mr? [Mr Mills:] Right er thank you sir. Perhaps if I start by saying that er I have er produced a one page summary which wasn't with my er initial statements, which I passed to Mr and to Mr, but if I could er pass copies of that to yourself and to the panel. [Mr E Barnett:] Wh whilst that's being done, can I just add that don't feel inhibited ab I want you to make your best case, but I mean you know, if if you can make it in five minutes instead of half an hour then nothing will be lost in that. And the other thing is that once we actually get into the discussion session, if you want to ask a question or make a point, then if you just put your name board up on end then I c I'll see whether you want you know, who wants to speak. And would you also please make sure you give your name at the time you speak and who you represent because the the the matter is being recorded and we want to make sure we know who has said what at what time. Mr. [Mr Mills:] Right thank you. Perhaps sir if I just just refer to er it's about a page if read out the er the the summary of my statement. Since the decision of the County Council in March nineteen eighty one, to promote a Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass, the Council have investigated ways of improving the flow of traffic through the two communities. Initially the Council investigated traffic management measures to complement the southern bypass. Er improvement schemes and measures were identified and have been implemented over a period of time. There are still others yet to to complete. The Council however concluded that the scope for improving traffic flows in the two communities, even with a southern bypass, was limited. And the solution lay in the provision of further relief roads. Route options for relief roads to the west of Harrogate and to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough, were assessed. Public consultation on the need for A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, and on specific routes, has been undertaken. These showed substantial public support for the need for the relief roads, and the preferred routes which have subsequently been selected. The A fifty nine and A sixty one both for part of the primary network which is a national network designated by the Department of Transport for the movement of long distance traffic, including the movement of heavy commercial vehicles. In recognition of the problems caused as a result of these routes passing through the urban areas of Harrogate and Knaresborough, the County Council has designated both roads as key routes for improvement in both the structure plan and the T P P which is the Transport Policy and Programs document of the County Council. Traffic flows on both routes are in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day, giving rise to severe problems of congestion at peak times, a high degree of severance of both communities, and major road safety problems. The northern relief road would reduce traffic flows by between twenty and thirty percent on the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough. The western relief road would reduce traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty percent to the north and south of the town centre. Measures to increase further the transfer of traffic to the relief roads will be investigated as scheme design progresses. There will be substantial road safety benefits as a result of the transfer of traffic to the relief roads with anticipated savings of twenty nine injury accidents per a per annum on the A fifty nine and seventeen per annum on the A sixty one. The relief roads both offer substantial savings in journey times and together with the road safety benefits, represent and excellent rate of return as measured by the Department of Transport's eco economic assessment program. It is accepted that there will be environmental costs as a result of the construction of the relief roads and these have been the subject of extensive investigations. These costs have been weighed against the environmental, traffic, road safety and economic benefits of the scheme using the Department of Transport's manual of environmental appraisal for public consultation. Based on these assessments, the proposals have the support of not only the County Council and the Borough Council, but also the general public. Both relief roads have been included as a firm commitment in the County Council's forward capital program, with a planned start of construction for the northern relief road and Killinghall bypass in nineteen ninety eight. And the western relief road in the year two thousand. The individual schemes will need to be taken through the statutory planning process which will give the opportunity for further debate on the details of the route, construction standards and landscaping measures. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you sir. Er I'd like to make two statements if if I may, it's easier for me. The first one on behalf of Parish Council and then the second one on behalf of Residents' Association. First of all for Parish Council. Taken in conjunction the written statement and the key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A fifty nine relief road, passing to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough. The Parish Council refer to this as an outer northern relief road. The specific route being investigated by the County Council is a modification of the blue route put forward in a consultation exercise at the beginning of nineteen seventy nine. The Parish Council do not consider that there is any alternative outer northern route which would produce a significantly better balance of costs and benefits. Taking the blue route as an example, an outer northern route would achieve limited traffic benefits on the A fifty nine and A six six one. The figures produced by the County Surveyor in a September nineteen ninety one committee report, show anticipated traffic changes at six points on these roads as they pass through Harrogate and Knaresborough. These are reductions of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. Reductions of this scale are unlikely to bring significant environmental benefit. The County Council's own environmental consultants reported that outer northern routes passed through a mixture of urban fringe landscape north of Harrogate, and some of the highest quality countryside around the two towns, along the Nidd Gorge. The impact of the routes on the wider landscape is emphasized as for western routes, by varying landforms exposing many distant views. There would appear to by no unobtrusive way of crossing the River Nidd. O M two, subsequently to become the blue route, offers a less damaging solution than O M one which would cut through the heart of the Nidd Gorge, creating a major environmental conflict. As with the western routes, few properties would be directly affected by routes. Intrusion would be a more general lessening of landscape quality over a wide area. The parish council are broadly in agreement with the consultants findings, The parish council do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of an outer northern route, outweighs the net environmental harm. It is recognized that the construction of an outer northern route was favoured by the respondents to an nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. In addition, the leaflet on which the public response was based, did not adequately highlight the difference in effectiveness between an outer northern route and the other routes on which views were sought. At an early stage the County Council rejected all the inner northern routes, despite the recommendation of the County Surveyor and the County Planning Officer, I have at this point said that the Harrogate Borough Council erm h had also recommended that the inner northern routes be retained for investigation. I said that in my summary. Erm I now accept that that was a misreading of Harrogate District Council's resolution which was rather more ambiguous than I have represented it here. An inner northern route would have been about twice as successful in relieving traffic on existing roads and would have produced fifty five percent more economic benefits. The County Council's environmental consultants had said of the inner northern routes, rather than damaging an irrepr irreplaceable sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. In the light of the advice from their own officers and consultants, the Council decision to reject all inner northern routes, throws doubt on the decision making process which led them to support an outer northern route. There has been no technical report which attempts to weigh the economic and environmental costs and benefits of the various options and certainly no technical report which concluded by recommending in favour of an outer northern route. The Parish Council consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford an outer northern route the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. Accordingly, the Parish Council requests the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A fifty nine relief road to the north of Knaresborough. I'll now go on with my statement for panel residents. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes please. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you.... Taken in conjunction with the written statement and key diagram,tak taken in conjunction the re the written statement and key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. The County Council have investigated several routes to the west of Harrogate. According to the County Council's published figures, the most successful of these would only succeed in releasing reducing traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty one percent. A reduction of this scale would be likely to achieve only slight environmental relief. The scale of relief that would actually be achieved by a western route is queried on a number of grounds. If these doubts are justified, the eventual scale of relief may be even less than the slight relief implied by the County Council's projection. The County Council's environmental consultants reported that western routes pass through some of the most attractive countryside around Harrogate. The ridge and valley nature of the landform to the west of Harrogate would make all routes difficult to integrate visually. All the routes would therefore be prominent in the landscape creating a lesser or greater degree of visual intrusion across a wide area. In time, with large scale mounding and excess extensive planting, routes could be integrated to a certain extent, but where valleys are crossed at right angles by bridges or embankments, the visual result will always be alien to the landscape. It is the ridge and valley nature of the landform around Harrogate that the draft local plan considers so important to maintain because of its contribution to the special landscape character of Harrogate. The Residents' Association are broadly in agreement with these findings, however they consider that the western routes have other environmental disadvantages which are detailed in my full statement and its appendices. The Residents' Association do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of a western relief road outweighs the net environmental harm. It is recognized that the construction of a western relief road was favoured by the respondents to a nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. The consultation leaflet was slanted in a way er which moved the response towards support for the proposed relief roads. Moreover it is unlikely that respondents would have either the time or experience to make a thorough appraisal of the information presented in the leaflet. In particular most people will be unused to the assessing the impact of percentage changes in traffic on existing roads or of weighing them against the environmental costs of the new road. Er I would also point out that erm even though there was a respectable response to the public consultation exercise, I think the number of respondents in total only represented something like seventeen percent of the number of households in the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. When the County Planning Committee considered the western relief road on the third of March nineteen ninety two, they resolved that a western relief road for Harrogate was environmentally unacceptable, that the Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass used in conjunction with the proposed A one motorway should be seen as the preferred route for north bound traffic originating to the south of Harrogate, and that the ultimate selection and implementation of a relief road for Harrogate and Knaresborough should be part of a package of measures for solving the problem of urban congestion and improving the quality of the urban environment. The committee's subsequent decision to include policy T seven in the structure plan, appears to have been taken without debate and without formal recognition that it's inclusion conflicted with their earlier er decision. Er the Residents' Association erm feel that this examination in public is not the right forum to erm answer a question which has never properly been asked erm at the County Council. Erm and and they do not consider that the full testing and evaluation erm o of the environmental harm as against the claimed highway benefit, has properly taken place. The association er also consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford er a relief road a western relief road, the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. According they request the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr [Mr W Terry Byrne:] I'll I'll be as brief as I can because some of the ground I'll be covering will be the same as Mr 's. Erm first of all the one we would er make is the question of the need for it as a bypass or as a through traffic route. The southern bypass and the A fifty nine link to the A one already supply that, as recommended in fact by the County Planning Committee to the Highways and Transport Committee in May ninety two. And we've brought additional evidence to support that today. Not forsaking that, even if we have a subsequent northern relief road, there would be a second choice for them to use the A sixty one continuing to Ripon. It would also be our contention that there should not be an attempt to direct traffic er in a northerly direction onto the A sixty one itself, beyond Killinghall because it is a particularly hazardous road with considerable bends on and I would be inclined to think it was far safer to direct them to the A one via the A fifty nine and southern bypass. And make them journey from Killinghall towards Ripon. The N Y C C in their assessment do not we believe have taken into account the severe environmental damage which any western relief road would impose on the landscape. And I hope we can come into that. On the question of the figures, we have some doubts of the assessments made which were done prior of course to the actual opening of the southern bypass and therefore what would happen when it did happen. Er thirdly we believe that if in fact this western relief opens, there will be considerably more pressure on some of the existing roads which are not designed to take it, particularly the B six one six two. Which would in fact join this er western relief road and which is already heavily congested, it's the main part of one of our presentations to you. Or the environmental damage. There does not appear to have been an account taken of the of the factors that may reduce traffic on the A sixty one er and ways of ameliorating the current problems on the road which are not just a question of the volumes, but in fact the timescale it takes in fact to clear that road in the mornings. And we're really primarily talking of the morning problems or the e the evening problems. And as far as we know there's no been no account been taken that er the subsequent development that is likely to take place on any of these roads, which is clearly implied in some of that statements, of the consequent traffic that that would generate in itself. And there appears appears to be no evidence of er these figures in their in their presentation. Er that concludes ours at this moment Mr. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr, do you want to say anything at this stage? [Mr D Allenby:] Yes just er just a few brief words chairman. David, Harrogate Borough Council. Erm I think if I could start by explaining the Borough Council's position on this matter and that's that the Borough Council is committed to the concept of an orbital road system around Harrogate and Knaresborough and that should be as part of a balanced transportation package for the area. Notwithstanding that position, the Council clearly had a number of reservations about the design, alignment and environmental impact of of a western relief road and we've asked the County Council to pursue its proposals for a western relief road on the basis of a single carriageway all-purpose road, and to give further consideration to ways in which environmental concerns can be ameliorated. We feel that er the A fifty nine A sixty one Harrogate relief road schemes are properly included in the structure plan alteration, as they do accord with the advice contained in P P G's twelve and and draft P P G thirteen. And the Borough Council considers that the need for the new roads has been fully justified as set out in the County Council's assessment. The Borough Council's case on the needs issue can be summarized by erm the following points. Firstly erm there is significant traffic and environmental problems er being experienced along the A fifty nine and the A sixty one routes in Harrogate and Knaresborough. These high volumes of traffic pass through densely built up areas often of high environmental quality and this results in congestion, delay and road safety problems. Importantly they also adversely affect levels of amenity in both residential and commercial areas. The scope of tackling these problems, along the existing routes is extremely limited due to physical and and environmental constraints. Particularly the existence of conservation areas, listed buildings and the impositions of the stray act. And the Borough Council as agents for the County Council has done what they can to to offset problems and the scope for further measures is limited. We feel that the prospect is for for worsening conditions, particularly in view of the level of traffic growth predicted. The real solution therefore is to constri construct an orbital relief road system so as to reduce traffic flows in the towns and to provide scope for implementation of a balanced package of transportation measures within the urban area. And finally erm I'd like to emphasize that the case for relief roads in in and around Harrogate and Knaresborough is not development led. Nor is it the case that large scale development will inevitably follow erm construction of those roads. Simply that erm the new roads will remove the constraint of erm access, poor access from sites which may otherwise be suitable for development in in planning terms. Thank you chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr, just a just a general point. Er in your fuller statement you talk about the A fifty nine as being the only major trans-Pennine route to North Yorkshire. I think to a certain extent that might be literally true, but the northern part of the county, you've got linkages into the A sixty six haven't you, Scotch Corner and to the west and you've also got linkages here into the Wharfe Valley and up through to Skipton again and further south you can link into the M sixty two can't you, as trans-pennine. How do you see the A fifty nine functioning as a strategic erm east west route across the county. For example linking York, Harrogate and beyond? [Mr Mills:] Well in terms of er in terms of that particular corridor, clearly that is the the major er route across the county between York, across to Scarborough on the east coast, York, Harrogate and across to Lancashire. Er clearly there are other routes further south but er er in terms of traffic er going to and from east west axis in in North Yorkshire, that is the er major route. Erm the emphasis really on that has been highlighted in the Department of Transport's own recent consultation document earlier this year where they looked at er trans-pennine routes right from from Derbyshire up to the er the A sixty six er looking at ways to relieve the pressure on the M sixty two where traffic flows have been in have increased dramatically over the last few years. There are already proposals er to widen sections of the M sixty two to four lanes. Er the Department's consultants identified that that wouldn't be sufficient to cope with traffic flows on the M sixty two er and indeed suggested as as an option er that traffic a new a new route could be created er along from the M sixty five at, the A fifty six and A fifty nine to Skipton, er and then pointed a red arrow in the direction of the A fifty nine across to the A one. And further further discussions of with them have er has b it's clear that that is er or the proposal improvement of the A fifty nine. Now the County Council is concerned about that in terms of a major improvement of the A fifty nine, er from an environmental point of view particularly through the national park. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. So the A fifty nine well let me put it let me put another question, does the A sixty one... serve a similar function to the A fifty nine? If by definition of what you've said, the A fifty nine is a major cross county link, does the A sixty one serve the same function? [Mr Mills:] Well clearly it serves a different function from the from the A fifty nine erm in terms of er its role, then er it is a different role, I would accept that in that there are other parallel routes er more closely at hand, clearly the A one which is to be improved to to motorway standard. Er so it is a different role than the A fifty nine, it is a different er competing routes if you like, but nevertheless it's still a key er l strategic link in the County Council's or in the North Yorkshire's highway network and has been identified as such, both in the structure plan er and also in er the transport policies and program document which is reviewed annually by the County Council. Er it is it has got problems as has already been referred to earlier in that it has a very poor accident record as well as well as passing through Harrogate, it has a a poor accident record to the north of Harrogate. Er we would like to see that improved, indeed part of the proposals for er these schemes before us today, we have taken the opportunity for Killinghall of extending that original close in bypass to bypass sections indeed some of the poorest sections of the A sixty one, to the north of Killinghall where we have a very bad accident record, those will be bypassed by the continuation of this scheme north of Killinghall. Er we're just recently started the construction of the Ripon bypass which is the other er problem on the A sixty one on in North Yorkshire. So completion of this scheme, the western relief road would complete er the improvements, together with improvements between Killinghall and er and Ripon w would improve complete the improvance of the A sixty one as a key strategic in the County's network [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] to complement the A one. [Mr E Barnett:] Can for the purpose of continuing the discussion, can we concentrate I think on the A fifty nine corr otherwise we shall get slightly cross threaded here. Can we concentrate on the A fifty nine? [D Whittaker:] Can I ask if everyone sitting around the table has now or has had access to plan policy guidance note number twelve? [speaker001:] Yes. [D Whittaker:] A copy is coming at the relevant bit er for those who don't have it.... I should say that the markings on the copy you're receiving are mine, they were not made in the context of this discussion. The reason I draw attention to this guidance is that it draws what I think is a crucial distinction for our purposes here today, between the need to assess at the structure plan level the need for a road proposal and in paragraph five thirty one, a clear statement there that consideration of environmental impacts in relation to where the road goes, is a matter for the local plan. That said, I appreciate the force of the points Mr has been making.... Can I ask Mr, leaving aside the question of where it is, do you accept that there is a need for an improvement of the A fifty nine? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes. [D Whittaker:] I'm sorry I have to ask you to say who you are before you speak. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Oh sorry. [D Whittaker:] Otherwise our records will get a bit confused. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] George. The answer to your question is, yes I do accept that there is a need for an improvement to A fifty nine. [D Whittaker:] Do you think that improvement could be made along the line of the existing road? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] No. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] May I expound on my answer? Er [Mr E Barnett:] Don't don't feel constrained to yes or no. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] This is your this is your big chance. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] I... I think that er what has been known as an inner northern bypass, that is a road which passes between Harrogate and Knaresborough, could act as a very effective relief road for the A fifty nine. I believe it would meet the need which Mr has quite properly identified. The reason that Scotton Parish Council are opposed to a road of the type shown in the key diagram, is that they do not consider and I do not consider that a road in that position, going to the north of Knaresborough, could effectively meet that need to relieve the A fifty nine. [Mr E Barnett:] Could I ask you why not? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Certainly. Because... there are two elements which make the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough such a busy road, one is local traffic, either having a destination in Harrogate or Knaresborough, or going between various parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough. That's one component. The other component is genuinely bypassable traffic which has both its origin and destination outside the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. Now that genuinely bypassable traffic is a minority of the total traffic on the A fifty nine system. If you build a relief road which is fairly tightly in to the built up area, that relief road will cater for both the long distance bypassable traffic and the local traffic. This was shown in the County Council's own analyses in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one which showed that an inner northern bypass would be very successful. Er in relieving er existing congestion on the A fifty nine. If one built a road a lot further out which is the case with the road shown in the structure plan key diagram, use of that road would represent a major diversion for local traffic, which would therefore be much less likely to use it. And again this isn't my opinion, it is something that is demonstrated by the traffic predictions which have been produced by the County Council. They show that er an outer northern route, through Harrogate itself, on most stretches of road, would take less than twenty percent of traffic from the existing road. It is true that on other parts of the A fifty nine system, particularly through Knaresborough, er the new road the outer northern bypass could take closer to thirty percent off the existing A fifty nine, but the traffic flows on that part of the A fifty nine are very much lower, so there is much less need, much less environmental need for a bypass there er a relief road I should say, there in the first place. So in summary, I m in my view, the reason why an outer northern bypass is much less successful in relieving the A fifty nine, is that it would be unattractive to the local traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] You mean local traffic that wishes to get into the centre of Harrogate or into Knaresborough. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Local traffic I use the term local traffic to mean traffic that's coming outside from outside Harrogate and Knaresborough and having a destination anywhere in Harrogate and Knaresborough, traffic which has an origin in Harrogate and Knaresborough and is going to a destination outside or traffic which has an origin and destination within Harrogate and Knaresborough. I call all that sort of traffic, local traffic, and I think that the outer northern route is less well equipped to deal with those kinds of traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr can I come back to you and in light of what Mr has said, [Mr Mills:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] your A fifty nine relief road proposal pursues two functions doesn't it? One is to try and pick up bypassable traffic and take it away from Harrogate and Knaresborough. Traffic which is [Mr Mills:] Yes that's correct. [Mr E Barnett:] essentially going east west or west east [Mr Mills:] It has no has no business in [Mr E Barnett:] has no business in the urban area. And you also see the other function of the relief road as a means of distributing local traffic er around the fringe of Harrogate er and trying to push it onto other radials to get into the town centre. [Mr Mills:] As part of [Mr E Barnett:] In other words, distribute that traffic around the network. Now that element of traffic as I read your figures, is is quite a considerable proportion of the well you're talking about roughly twenty thousand P C Us a day? [Mr Mills:] Well talked about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day on each of the two roads. Yes vehicles vehicles vehicles [Mr E Barnett:] In excess of twenty thousand yes. Are you talking about vehicles or P C [Mr Mills:] yes, we tend not to use P C Us as much as well a few years ago. [Mr E Barnett:] Well well that just shows you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] What is a vehicle then? Anyway doesn't matter. We're talking about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles so you've still got erm a considerable proportion, somewhere of the order of at least two thirds, which [Mr Mills:] It depends which relief road we're talking about, but I think I would accept I mean I can accept the point that er Mr is making about er the relative er benefits in terms of traffic relief afforded by either an inner northern route or an outer northern route. And he's quite correct in pointing those out and I wouldn't disagree with him on on that score. Erm we and that's one reason why we've brought along the plan which shows the different traf traffic effects. Er of the on the northern route and on indeed the western route. Erm it is quite clear from that that because the inner routes er are much closer in er to the urban area, they do pick up more of the local movements between Harrogate and Knaresborough er than does the outer route. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] Erm you know having said that, that clearly is is one factor, it's an important factor in assessing the schemes but it is one factor and a number of other things such as the impact clearly of the routes themselves. And the public response to those routes. Er now I I would expect, I don't know whether it's worth talking about the general principle that we're talking about different routes here and as i understand, the purpose today was to talk about the need for relief roads and I would expect at some future date, at a public enquiry when er I'm defending er the outer blue er the outer northern route, to defend why that was chosen as opposed to an inner northern route and not rely upon the key diagram in the structure plan and the stars that are shown on there. Er to be the to be the route. [Mr E Barnett:] No. I'm try I'm I I I I'm trying to stay with need and purpose. [Mr Mills:] Right. Right. [D Whittaker:] But you have defined the route in a particular way on the key diagram, when there was an alternative way of defining it. And I think in the context of what... P P G twelve says, it is right for this examination, to consider the proposal as you have presented it to us. And the need for that as opposed to the alternative. In that context, how does an outer northern relief road impact differently in terms of traffic relief on Knaresborough as opposed to an inner Northern relief road? [Mr Mills:] Erm well the the the detailed figures are shown on the diagram there. I haven't presented those in my in my statements [D Whittaker:] Sorry read those. [Mr Mills:] No right well we'll have to go up and have a look at them. I mean if in terms of the statement in the structure plan, it is simply the policy doesn't relate to an outer northern relief road. Erm it's only the the reason it's on the diagram it it simply reflects the fact in fact w w w we were overtaken almost by events in terms of the structure plan policy in that the County Council had move on to t had undertaken public consultation, and it had determined a preferred route. Er and it was felt appropriate at the time that that should be indicated on the T the key diagram to be to be helpful more than nothing else. We have on most of our bypass schemes in fact a all the other bypass schemes shown on the key diagram simply show them by a star on the diagram. In fact the Ripon bypass is actually shown on the other s on the on the other side of Ripon the bypass is actually er located. So I don't think the stars on the diagram itself are as I see it are particularly important. I mean if it is helpful and Mr and I did have this discussion in the pre-meeting that we had, er certainly if you wish to recommend that the d that the stars on the the diagram were to be changed er just simply to show one star instead of a route, then I for one would be quite happy with that. If that satisfied Mr. It's simply the reason it was done that way was to reflect a County Council decision which had been taken fairly recent times on the route of an outer as opposed to an inner. But there's a lot if we were going to talk about the m relative merits of the inner and outer today, I think er there's quite a lot in addition to the er the traffic effects within Knaresborough which we would have to go into er er because I mean, in fact we've and that is why I didn't include in certainly in my statement, er any defence er in any great detail of choosing an outer route as opposed to an inner route. I'm quite happy to go into that, we have all the information here, we can do it but it would take some time I suspect. [D Whittaker:] I think we have two alternatives. Either we pursue the need for the blue route as opposed to any other route to the north of Harrogate, or the County Council puts on record, I E in a letter to the panel, that it proposes to amend the key diagram. If it proposes to amend the key diagram such that it does not indicate that the County Council intends to construct a blue route, which is what the key diagram indicates to me at the moment, then the ball game becomes very different. But as the key diagram stands at the moment, because it goes north of Knaresborough in its indication of where the route proposal will be, I think if that i key diagram is to remain, it is right for the examination to consider what the need for that route is as opposed to a route or any other route which goes between Harrogate and Knaresborough. The choice is yours. [speaker001:] The w the western is is shown by a single star [Mr E Barnett:] It's described in the policy as A fifty nine, sixty one relief road [Mr Mills:] I think the difference there is that we're talking about we're not talking inners and outers there, we're talking about or certainly in terms of the consultation that we've undertaken on the western route, it's been different variations of a western route, there isn't an equivalent of a of an inner route for the for the western side. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Mills:] Er and so the the dia the stars on the the diagram for the western relief road er aren't indicative of er of a particular line or particular option. Because here we have looked at four options for the western highway and th and those stars could indicate any of those four options so I think [D Whittaker:] They could indeed but they do indicate a western relief road. [Mr Mills:] Oh yes clearly yes. [D Whittaker:] Excuse us one moment. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr, you want to come in? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes please sir. [Mr E Barnett:] And do you want to come in Mr as well? [break in recording] [speaker001:] shown over there that we haven't seen. [Mr E Barnett:] Alright, just a minute, Mr first. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Er the the interests of of my two clients are quite different erm and and it would be very helpful to me if the A fifty nine and A erm s sixty one could be treated separately. As far as Scotton Parish Council are concerned, I have confirmed my instructions from them and they would be more than satisfied if the County Council would agree to amend the key diagram to indicate er a n what is at present shown as a series of stars around the north of of Harrogate, by a single star, that would satisfy Scotton Parish Council. I believe the issues about the western road are different but but I can say that as far as the northern route is concerned, Scotton Parish Council would be more than happy if i the notation on the key diagram could be changed to a single star. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for thank Mr, Mr can we leave your point on one side while while we address the A fifty nine. Mr do you want to have a ten minute break while you consider this question of whether you would be prepared to advise the panel that you would be a you would accept an amendment to the key diagram to show one star or what ever it is you have used on the key diagram to indicate A fifty nine relief road proposal? [Mr Mills:] Yes I'd be grateful for that chairman if that could be arranged thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes we will come back at five to three. Have you have you been able to come to a conclusion about the A fifty nine?... [Mr Mills:] Yes chairman, that er... we er would be prepared, the County Council would be prepared to put in a statement to the effect that er it would be w prepared to amend the key diagram to reflect a a single er star on the diagram er to reflect the A fifty nine relief road. Er similarly we feel it would be more appropriate if that were to be the case er perhaps should point out there are other schemes where we have shown a series of of lines stars on the key diagram, it's not just on the Harrogate. Er also there is at York. But er given the er the position in terms of there is a policy statement in the structure plan which refers to the A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, er if it's going to be helpful then e as well as the er A fifty nine, then it would be appropriate to show the western relief road rather than a series of er of arrows, to similarly show that I think we'd have to show that as two st two er stars or arrows rather than one because we would need to er indicate both to the north and south of the A fifty nine. But what I'd suggest is that we're actually er will prepare today, this afternoon, an amended version er of that diagram which we can then er er pass to Mr and Mr for comment. [D Whittaker:] Can you Beg you pardon Can you refer me to the part of the key diagram which shows the scheme for York to which you referred a moment ago? [Mr Mills:] It's the existing approved er structure plan which shows [Mr E Barnett:] Ah. [Mr Mills:] York and in fact the southern bypass for Harrogate and Knaresborough was shown in that fashion. [speaker001:] ... [D Whittaker:] York from the one I'm looking at is a series of triangles. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] That's correct yeah. [D Whittaker:] As does Harrogate Knaresborough southern bypass. [Mr Mills:] That's right yes. It's the same way that we've shown the northern and western in the alteration. [D Whittaker:] I don't therefore understand what you're saying about the single star. [Mr Mills:] Single triangle rather than star. [D Whittaker:] Single triangle.... It seems to me that the indication you have given on the key diagram to alteration number three for Harrogate Knaresborough is exactly the same as for example the indication given for York and for Harrogate Knaresborough southern on the approved key diagram. What's the change you're offering? [Mr Mills:] Well it was to be helpful to the er to Mr and Scotton Parish Council that what what I was saying was, we weren't relying on the key diagram to justify at some future date, it being an outer northern relief road, that decision would have to be defended at future enquiry. If it's to be helpful if if Mr is saying on behalf of the Parish Council that by showing it in this way on the key diagram, he feels is prejudicing or the Parish Council's position is prejudiced at some future date, then it's to be helpful to that that the County Council is saying it is prepared to show it simply as a an arrow and similarly for consistency it would seem to make sense to show the western in the same fashion. [Mr E Barnett:] Can can we stick just with the A fifty nine for the time being? Er you would indicate somewhere in the Harrogate Knaresborough are on the key diagram, a solid black triangle to illustrate an A fifty nine Harrogate Knaresborough relief road? [Mr Mills:] That's correct. There would be I think in total there would be three black arrows. Er one between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the to the east of the A sixty one. This is where the difficulty when we have A sixty north and south and A fifty nine east and west. But between the A sixty one erm running north of Harrogate [Mr E Barnett:] Mm is that the Killinghall section? [Mr Mills:] The Killinghall section. Between there and the A fifty nine to the east, we would have one single er arrow or triangle and then we would have another arrow or triangle between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the west of Harrogate and similarly another arrow between the A fifty nine and the A sixty one south of the A fifty nine, down to A sixty one south of Harrogate. [Mr E Barnett:] C can we s sorry to keep coming back to this one but I want to leave the A sixty one for the time being. Erm what we would like and I'm taking you at taking your statement er as you made it. Er with regard to the A fifty nine and the representation with a single black triangle somewhere in the northern vicinity of Harrogate, Knaresborough, somewhere in that vicinity on the key [Mr Mills:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] diagram. Er we could you let us have a letter to that effect, address it to the panel secretary and really as soon as possible. [Mr Mills:] Certainly sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Tomorrow morning. [D Whittaker:] Can I be sure that I'm interpreting this correctly.... In saying that the County Council is not committed to a road which goes north or Knaresborough. [Mr Mills:] No no I we're not saying that at all, that's a different proposition entirely er certainly the County Council is at this moment in time committed to an outer northern relief road, I don't think there's any question of that. Er what we as I was putting was suggesting was in terms of the key diagram and the structure plan we would show it as a single arrow. And we would defend that er er de or we would debate that as I understand it as where it should be debated at er the next stage of the planning process which will be an enquiry into a a planning application. And that this structure plan was merely indicating the policy of building a relief road and the key diagram was merely indicative as as I understand that is its purpose, not to show routes, but indicative of a location whereabouts in the County is this does this polic policy relate to. And that's what we are we will be relying upon with er with this change.... [Mr E Barnett:] I think the general feeling of the panel is that if you are committed to a route north of Knaresborough, then we think it's sufficiently a enough a strategic matter for us to continue the discussion on on it. [D Whittaker:] Its functions would be different its nee therefore the need for it would be different. [Mr Mills:] As I understood er Mr 's position, he would have been on behalf of the Parish Council who are the only er people who are concerned about this as I understand, who raised an objection at this er at this stage they they would have been quite happy with the proposition that I've put forward on behalf of the County Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr your comment please. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] George. The reason the Parish Council objected to the structure plan was that they considered that the structure plan itself was beginning to represent a statutory commitment a statutory commitment to a road to the north of Knaresborough. Now if Mr is saying that outside the context of the structure plan entirely which is all I took him to be saying, that the members of North Yorkshire County Council are still determined to build a road to the north of of erm [Mr E Barnett:] Knaresborough. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] of Knaresborough, that that doesn't seem to be a a a matter that concerns the structure plan greatly because there are County Council elections, there are new County Councils, the reason I am here today is to avoid any sort of statutory commitment in the structure plan. And that's what I want to avoid today and that's my sole objective. [D Whittaker:] My question was to Mr was designed to throw light on that point. And the answer was the County Council is committed or not prepared to be uncommitted to a road north of Knaresborough. It seems to me there is a tenable argument which says that whether the road the relief road is north or south of Knaresborough, is a strategic matter. [Mr Mills:] wouldn't indicate that would it er so the A fifty nine relief that the structure plan policy is indicating. There are various ways about that as there are with many road schemes er where there are structure plan policies for a particular scheme and there are arrows on key diagrams, there are many ways of getting from A to B er they are not er in terms of outer and inner, they are going from the same A to B. They they start and finish at the same locations, it is just a different way of getting from A to B. Which quite properly as I understand it would be a matter for debate er either at the local plan or if a planning application is made er earlier than that er then at a at a planning enquiry into the specific road proposal. [Mr E Barnett:] But nevertheless, you may have different ways of getting from A to B but those different routes may in actual fact give a different set of benefits or perform different functions or not necessarily meet all the needs as you're setting out to meet. [Mr Mills:] They always do in major highway schemes, nearly all options for major highway schemes have certainly have all have different environmental impacts affect er all the factors that we've looked at differently on all our schemes. Er er traffic effects are different, economic effects, effects on agriculture, effects on greenbelt land etcetera etcetera, they all have d depending on which route you take, a different impact. And that's the case with inner and outer, They are perhaps more fundamentally different er in some respects that than than other options for an outer where they go for example on the western where they're totally outside, I would accept that. But the way that the the structure plan is is er is indicating the policy, it is it is silent on that. If we amend particularly if we amend the the way the diagram is er is indicating it. [Mr E Barnett:] Can I can I ask you a question and then direct the next one to Mr? When you say the County Council is committed to the northern or the outer relief road route, do you mean committed or do you mean that that is their preferred option. [Mr Mills:] That is their preferred option which I am instructed er to to pursue. They have got to the stage having gone through the consultation, having done the assessments, looked at the alternatives, have declared that as their preferred route which er the next stage would then be as I say, the planning process. There is and the County Council has indicated that if circumstances change, er then it can look at this again. So in terms of commitment er County Councils can always look at the the route, it can always change its mind. Er it may indeed deed have to change to change its mind if if a future planning enquiry er [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] A future inspector recommends it is the wrong route. So situations are reviewed and we do look at monitored traffic flows for example, we do look at our justifications and if there are reasons for a change we can go back, so it's not irreversible by any means, that is the current committed preferred route however and I didn't want to give an indication that by changing the diagram we were saying everything's opened up again, cos clearly we've reached a stage that the County Council's declared it's a preferred route and that's [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] declared for people who are buying houses and etcetera and it has a certain statutory status but it but it can be looked at again clearly. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes it's a preference. Now Mr, in the light of what Mr has said, do you understand that if the structure plan key diagram was amended in that way, it will still yo leave you and your clients open to challenge, or you would have a better chance of challenging er the er preferred option of the County Councils at the next stage, which is either through the local plan channel or through the er the the planning application stage for the highway? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes, that's our objective. We have always tried at every stage to to erm avoid a commitment of any kind to an outer northern route. We know that we will have further battles in the future to fight but erm we wanted to avoid any statutory commitment in the structure plan and we will be happy if we achieve that today. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.... [D Whittaker:] Before we leave this Mr, can I please ask you if you accept what Mr has said in paragraph three of his statement B three double O two, the statement on behalf of the Parish Council? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Could you tell me so that I can find the statement. [D Whittaker:] Your statement on behalf of the Parish Council, your summary [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Summary yes. [D Whittaker:] paragraph three. [Mr E Barnett:] On behalf of Scotton. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you.... [Mr Mills:] Oh I don't a I don't agree with paragraph three no. I don't accept the assertions that it would achieve limited traffic benefits or indeed would would be unlikely to bring significant environmental relief. I certainly I I think the percentages there are er er are accurate er taken from the the diagrams, but I wouldn't accept the er the follow on, the conclusions which are are drawn in that paragraph, clearly. [Mr E Barnett:] You accept the percentages though do you? [Mr Mills:] I accept that those those percentages are ones taken from a particular report er showing the changes at certain points on the on the A fifty nine. We've actually summarized that as Mr has said in his proof as being showing reliefs of between twenty and thirty percent. Er er er and those er those are particular points in the network where er particular figures have been obtained.... One of the objectives that the County Council has actually set when it declared the when it approved the outer route was to instruct the County Surveyor to seek ways and means of trying to increase the relief to Harrogate and Knaresborough er with an outer northern relief road. And that's work which we will need to do in the future, these percentages erm have ob have been obtained from our forecast based upon basically the the the the status quo if you like, in a free choice. Clearly as we build a package of measures er within the urban areas, then we'll be looking for schemes that will encourage use of the outer northern relief road and w attempting to increase the er the flow of traffic on that route. But even having said that, er it is still performing in my view or would perform an extremely valuable er service in terms of taking out the A fifty nine through traffic. As you'll see from the diagram, in the year of opening in nineteen ninety nine, on the central section of the l outer northern relief road there are eight thousand vehicles a day using that that road, that's eight thousand vehicles a day that won't be wouldn't be passing through Knaresborough and through Harrogate.... And I think that is significant.... [Mr E Barnett:] So can we come back then to er asking you for written confirmation of the [Mr Mills:] Certainly sir. [Mr E Barnett:] indication of the A fifty nine relief by a single triangle and er let us have that in writing. [Mr Mills:] Certainly sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Thank you. Mr. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Can I say that I hope Mr or or whoever writes for the County Council wouldn't use the form of words, but erm although I am instructed by my clients that they would be satisfied with the change to a single triangle, erm I don't think that they would be satisfied if you in making that change, you accompanied by a form of words which said the County Council are still committed to building an outer. [speaker001:] Thank you. [D Whittaker:] That is in practice the the position.... Is it not? What Mr said to us. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Can we do anything in this structure plan forum to to change that position. I what I have come here today to do is is in the matters that we're discussing, to to take out any commitment to an outer northern. I do not think that we can achieve more in this forum. If there is more to be achieved in this forum, then I think my clients would like to fight for it because we we do believe that we would we do believe that logic and technical sense stands against the proposal that's in the structure plan at the moment. [Mr E Barnett:] Well at the moment Mr is not in a position to how shall I put it, withdraw his authority's commitment or preferred option, they have they have made that decision and short of him convening a memb a meeting of the highways committee between now and whenever, you wo there's no way in which he would be in a position to withdraw that. The only way in which er you could get how shall I put it, another view on the issue, would be to continue the debate here on whether or not the outer northern fulfils the functions and the needs which it pr claims to do compared with the inner routes between Knaresborough and Harrogate. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Are you offering me that as an option chairman? [Mr E Barnett:] I'm suggesting if you want to pursue that, I'm prepared to listen to it yes. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] May I I do not need an adjournment but may I back away from the microphone to take instruction? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes.... [Mr G Arrowsmith:] The [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Er George, the my clients instruction is not phrased very legally, but it's, let's go for it, so we would sir like to pursue the issue of er our contention is that the outer er northern r route as shown in the structure plan key diagram as it is at present does not meet the need for traffic relief of the A fifty nine A sixty one corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to expand on that. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes.... [Mr E Barnett:] give your name again Mr? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] George. My expansion is crystallized in paragraph three of the summary statement on behalf of the Parish Council. That is that the County Surveyor chose in September nineteen ninety one to show reductions at six points on the existing road network. That choice of six points is not mine, it was the County Surveyor's choice. The reductions at those six points are the figures I have given in paragraph three, seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. They are very low levels of reduction. If one uses the criteria in the Department of Transports manual of environmental appraisal, to which the County Council themselves have referred, most of those levels of reduction don't even erm fall at the level where you would normally evaluate their environmental impact. I should say that the figures of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent and twenty three percent, the first four figures, are figures on the A fifty nine. The smaller reductions are on the part of the A fifty nine through Harrogate where the flows are much bigger. The reductions, the bigger percentage reductions of twenty eight percent and twenty three percent are in the section closer to Knaresborough where in fact the flows are substantially smaller, er are quite a bit under twenty thousand. I could actually give you the exact figures er or or Mr but I won't give them at at the moment of the top of my head. But those big percentage reductions are taking place at a point on the network where the southern bypass has already reduced the flows, so th those parts of the network would be much less in need of relief. The ten percent and thirteen percent figures which are very low indeed re relate to the A six six one which following the opening of the southern bypass and er the Sainsbury er I don't know whether it's a hypermarket or a supermarket on Wetherby Road, has very now has very high traffic flows which are comparable to flows on the A fifty nine. The outer northern rel relief road does nothing to to reduce those flows or nothing significant to reduce those flows on Wetherby Road. An inner relief road, the one favoured by Scotton Parish Council would be much more successful. And and the final thing that that that I ought to say is is that i if i it has a hangover to what's going to be said later today. If an inner northern relief road were built, it could take some of the traffic which the western relief road is catered to deal with. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [clears throat] the percentages which you have quoted, are they taken from the figures which the County Surveyors has proposed in his table two, attached to his paper? Yeah I just want to be clear on wh [Mr G Arrowsmith:] No! [Mr E Barnett:] No? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] No. Er may I tell you where they are taken from? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yes please. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you. If you would turn to my full submission on behalf of Scotton Parish Council.... And if you would turn to appendix three to that submission. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Appendix three er contains two pages taken from the County Surveyors report of the sixth of September nineteen ninety one. It's the first of those pages I would direct you to [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. The the page which is number three. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] That's right and it's the table in the top half. [Mr E Barnett:] And it it immediately precedes paragraph three point four. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you. Yeah. [D Whittaker:] I think the question follows Mr, why is County Council supporting a proposal which compared with the o other options before it, provides least relief?... [Mr Mills:] The the debate about the inner and and outer is is a little more complicated than that. I find myself in some difficulty in that the statement I have prepared does not debate the merits of the inner and outer routes, but merely the question of is there a need for a relief road er and what are the benefits that the particular relief road er that we are currently promoting which is the outer northern, whether that is is sufficient to demonstrate that it is meeting a need. I think we're getting into very difficult or er waters when we start talking about the relative comparison with other routes which I haven't er myself included in my statement any reference to. Clearly if I had been aware that we were going to be talking about the merits of other routes, then I would have prepared a different statement. But having said that, given that we do need to go on and talk about it, I will do my my best to give that information er that I have. Clearly the diagram the the the table in Mr 's proof where he refers to the traffic figures,th those are taken indeed from our own er committee report er to members which set out er the relief at various points, six points on the highway network, for the outer route compared er with the inner routes. And you'll see from that that er and I accept that er the outer route, the relief is approximately half to the A fifty nine at If you look at the A fifty nine, Knaresborough Road, Harrogate, er there is a relief of five thousand vehicles for the er outer blue route as opposed to nine thousand five hundred er for the inner northern routes. Er now clearly if the if the members had si had been simply the highways committee had been deciding the preferred route simply on the basis of which gives the greatest traffic relief then on that basis they would have chosen an inner northern. Er there are other factors. Er we included to members the information on traffic flows, we also included the information which you have a copy of in my statement [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Mills:] which gives a very comprehensive assessment er of er the i in terms of the Department of Transport's own manual of environmental appraisal, sets out er information on all the routes that we that were put to the public as part of the consultation we did in nineteen ninety one. [D Whittaker:] Can you direct us to the table please? [Mr E Barnett:] Is this your appendix B?... [Mr Mills:] Appendix B sir yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Thank you... [Mr Mills:] So these are all factors in here which er the the... Well first of all the general public was provided with a a synopsis of this if I can put it that way in that the en original consultation leaflet included er extracts from this, summaries of it er in the leaflet, er and that set out clearly the differing traffic effects of the outer northern relief road compared with the inner. It also set out the er as you'll see from here Well if you look at the detailed information that er was available at the exhibitions, you'll see that it runs through er the effect of the routes on first of all all the vehicle travellers, gives the time savings, vehicle operating cost savings, value accident savings for each of the options. Erm [D Whittaker:] Can I stop you there is You've already explained that the inner routes have a significantly better performance in terms of diverting traffic than the outer one. What's the position with regard to accidents? [Mr Mills:] If you look at the first page of the appendix B, er the outer route was was called was the blue route so if you look down [Mr E Barnett:] Yes [Mr Mills:] at the bottom of that page, you'll see that the blue route and there are two sets of figures, that is based upon high and lows you see at the top which are high and low traffic forecasts. [D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] Er for high traffic forecast there would be the blue route would save and this is a thirty year thirty year assessment period which is a standard assessment period for major road schemes, twenty four fatalities under high traffic growth conditions, twenty fatalities under low traffic growth. Two hundred and eighty serious the these are reductions, two hundred and eighty re er r serious injury accidents would be reduced on the A fifty nine, two thirty with low growth. Seven hundred and ninety six er less slight injury accidents on the A fifty nine, six hundred and fifty three with low growth. That compares with the figures you'll see for the inner routes erm which are higher er because of the er greater transfer of traffic from existing roads. [D Whittaker:] So again, the inner route performs better. [Mr Mills:] Performs better yes. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] And in terms of vehicle operating costs savings, if I just go back to the top of that page, the inner routes again perform well not not so not so well or better? Which? Do they perform better? [Mr Mills:] Er in actual fa in actual fact not so not so well in that er there are there are negative benefits er as you'll see in some and less negative on the blue route. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah.... Mr. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] That that is not my interpretation of the table. Erm I I I I will apologize if I am wrong but my interpretation of the table is that erm... could you say chairman wh which of three rows of We're dealing with the the top part of the table all vehicle travellers, [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yes. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] which of the three rows were you talking about? [Mr E Barnett:] I was just looking at vehicle operating cost savings. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Ah the middle one. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes.... [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Then [Mr E Barnett:] Can I can [Mr G Arrowsmith:] It it it seems to me sir that that erm the the the that some of the inner routes at least the the red route performs better on on operating cost savings than the blue route. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [D Whittaker:] Are we misreading this table Mr? Red performs better than blue? [Mr Mills:] Not er not my understanding, the the and I think there is a we may have hit on the perhaps the only the only error in the whole, all the figures in this table, there should be a minus clearly in front of the three point six seven in that table. But you'll see on the vehicle operating cost savings, that they're all negative but the blue route is less negative that purple, orange, red and pink and therefore erm is marginally better in terms of vehicle operating cost savings. [D Whittaker:] But on the other two criteria, either side of vehicle operating cost, time savings and [Mr Mills:] Yes it's better on the inner routes yes. [D Whittaker:] accident savings, red is better than blue? [Mr Mills:] Yes. Er red is... better than blue yes. I'd accept that yeah.... [D Whittaker:] Are there any major groupings of this table Mr where blue is better than red? [Mr Mills:] Well I think what you've got to be careful of and it's always a difficulty when you're looking at er benefits and dis-benefits of major road schemes, you'll see that we go into a tremendous amount of or collect a tremendous amount of information about the different impacts. Some can be quantified in numeric terms and can be looked at objectively, others are subjective. Erm and those are the ones which are described er qualitatively put it that way. Now it is very difficult, clearly to compare qualitatively er one route with another but if you take an example, the effect on greenbelt land, which should you look towards the back, it's just one that springs to mind but there there are no doubt er there will be others which we can go into. Er you will see that on in group four which is the top Unfortunately these aren't page numbers in this er pa they don't have page numbers in this manual. But under group four, under the effect impact on policies, erm... is that the right one? Yeah designation of greenbelt, authority of Harrogate Borough Council, approximate land-take erm you'll see that for the blue route, that affects one point four hectares of greenbelt land, whereas for the inner routes, purple affects seventeen point six hectares, orange, twenty point two, red twenty point five and pink twenty point eight. The other er aspect perhaps is if and again on the consultation leaflet and in the manual, effect on houses demolished. Er there are no houses demolished with the blue route, er there are eight houses demolished with the purple route, six with the orange route, six with the red route, and two with the pink route. The other clear major factor was that a result of public consultation er and clearly this was an important consideration when members came to choose the route, that seventy percent of those consulted favoured the outer northern route, the blue route. And they were given the information on on traffic relief er in the leaflet in more detail at the exhibition. And so they were aware when that er that view was expressed of the differing effects. [D Whittaker:] Would you accept that there is an element of us all preferring something that is further away from us than something that is nearer to. I hesitate to use words [Mr Mills:] Well I mean that is one of the other factors of course [D Whittaker:] Is there an element of that in it? [Mr Mills:] Well well clearly that is that is er that is one of the the the elements nevertheless, something that is to be ignored lightly. The other factor probably the way to look at that more objectively is to see how many houses are in proximity to each of the routes which is a standard way again in the departments own er manual of environmental appraisal, of doing that and that is the information which is contained find it er... which is a way of looking at noise effects. Er and you'll see that in group two, the impact of the various routes on occupiers, residential occupiers, you'll see that for the blue route and that this is where we have the number of properties demolished by the different routes, on the top line, er in terms of noise effects adjacent to new road, number of houses within a given distance, a centre line, nought to fifty metres there are are only five properties within nought to fifty metres of the blue route whereas there are thirty on the purple, twenty er on the orange, less on the red, four and five on the pink. And so we have again you know, set that information out in the in in the document. Er number of premises adjacent it's similar. [Mr E Barnett:] But if you look at some of the other factors, for example just within all the other routes, score better than the blue route. I mean, number of premises experiencing experience at least halving of the present traffic. Er [Mr Mills:] That reflects the the traffic forecast that we talked about earlier. I think we r we we accepted in in the County Surveyors report to members, er it was clearly pointed out that the traffic benefits of the inner routes are greater than the outer route. And that I'm not disputing that. [Mr E Barnett:] And that's to that's clearly summarized on the last page of your appendix B isn't it? [Mr Mills:] It is but then er there are many schemes that er we have that don't have as good a rate of return as the the blue route, that is an extremely healthy economic rate of return for the outer northern blue route. So although it is not as good as the inner routes it is nevertheless an extremely robust scheme in the department of transports terms. [Mr E Barnett:] So why [Mr Mills:] Because it does take out a significant volume of traffic out of Harrogate and Knaresborough. It's not as much as as the other two but it's still a significant amount. [Mr E Barnett:] So why at the end of the day does the County Council feel that the blue route is preferable to the others? [Mr Mills:] Because in reaching its decision it takes account not only of the technical merits in terms of traffic relief but also, the wider impact er the other factors in terms of the route and also public opinion. If that were not the case then we wouldn't have er public consultation exercise and ask for people's views in terms of which routes they support. And in this case it was an overwhelming support for the blue route. It wasn't a marginal decision, the the sum total of the inner routes er represent thirty percent of those er expressing a view whereas the one outer route attracted seventy percent of the response in favour. And clearly that had a significant effect on the discussion. [Mr E Barnett:] And yet on the face of it, the inner route seemed to offer a better way of meeting the need than performing the functions that you seek for the relief road to perform in that part of Harrogate Knaresborough. [Mr Mills:] Yes.... [D Whittaker:] Can you identify any particular factor apart from public opinion which indicate may not be as helpful in this sort of circumstance as in others. Any particular factor [Mr Mills:] Well [D Whittaker:] apart from that, on which the County Council placed a great deal of weight. Because on the evidence before us it seems to me it's hard to understand why they went that way. I've stolen Mr 's thunder I think. [Mr Mills:] I find it I find I must say I find it difficult to understand why you find it difficult to understand that they they chose that particular route. [D Whittaker:] I'll go through it if you like. [Mr Mills:] Clearly clearly there are o there are there are clear reasons in my view why that route was chosen but there are As I say I find th somewhat at a disadvantage because I haven't come prepared to talk about the relative merits in great detail of the two routes. The the information certainly there in that t in the manual erm there are other factors. Clearly er my recollection at the time there was great concern and it can and it's it's it's arguably reflected in the public response, about creating a new road passing between Harrogate and Knaresborough. seen as a vital green wedge between Harrogate and Knaresborough, it's designated as greenbelt land, there was a tremendous amount of concern er about passing through there. L some of that land is at the present time is used for the golf course, there was an impact of all those routes on on the golf course. There was major concern about that. But perhaps more than that was the concern about this e affecting this precious area of land between Harrogate and Knaresborough. And that came out as a as a as a certainly many people mentioned that to me at the exhibitions that I attended. Er there was a worry that well first of all the effect just the the appearance of the road passing through that area, clearly obviously concerns about development but that can be on on any route that can happen. Er and that can be resisted. Er but but simply the fact it was passing through this area of land that was regarded by locals as being sacred and separating the two communities. [Mr E Barnett:] But if I'm if I act as devil's advocate, the fact that that inner route would pass through the greenbelt does not necessarily diminish the purpose of the greenbelt. Which is to keep or prevent coalescence I think er probably ask Mr to comment on that. Surely the the primary purpose of the greenbelt in this location is to prevent coalescence between Harrogate and Knaresborough. Or does he believe that is a route is put through there then that would increase development pressures in that sector of the district and the greenbelt notation would then run the risk of having to be reviewed. I shouldn't put words in your mouth, [Mr D Allenby:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you chairman, David, Harrogate Borough Council. Er yes I this this is a very very sensitive part of the what is the West Riding greenbelt, the outer edge of the West Riding greenbelt. It does have a its prime function is erm protecting the coalescence of Harrogate and Knaresborough and and protecting their special character. Erm I don't necessarily think that a road running through that area would increase development pressures and basically because it is greenbelt, it's not going to development pressure. Very much however depends on the alignment of the road. I think if the road was drawn very closely in to the greenbelt edge then that could have an effect on development pressures and it could lead to pressures for erm some er amendment the greenbelt boundary in in the future erm of plan making processes. [D Whittaker:] What are the Borough Council's views about relative preference to inner and outer? [Mr D Allenby:] One of the erm I mean I think it has to be said that we erm I support everything that er Chris has said about the the effect of traffic relief. There is much greater traffic relief provided by the inner relief road er I think our gen [D Whittaker:] Is that a good thing? [Mr D Allenby:] I sorry? [D Whittaker:] Is that a good thing?... [Mr D Allenby:] In itself in providing a greater degree of traffic relief Yes it I mean it is a good thing, it is a plus point. But I think erm the general point that was made really has to be considered alongside other considerations, is is the the key consideration. Erm our view was that there are erm problems associated with er an inner relief road and one of one of those problems was the amount of traffic that would pass through End at Knaresborough, there was a lot of concern as we spelt out to members in our er committee report that erm traffic erm along Forest Lane Head towards Knaresborough along the A existing A fifty nine corridor, would actually increase over the do nothing situation. [D Whittaker:] Is that a matter which could be overcome by detailed position? Or not? [Mr D Allenby:] Er I don't know if I can answer that I suspect not. [D Whittaker:] Sorry does it I put my question very badly, does it make any difference to traffic through this particular part or Knaresborough where the relief road is? If it were [Mr D Allenby:] If if it was an inner relief road [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr D Allenby:] Yes. No I don't think it really makes an difference on the detailed alignment of an inner relief road, I think it's basically the perception of motorists using er the system in that part of Harrogate and Knaresborough that it would be quicker to use the existing A fifty nine through Knaresborough than you go along one of the radial routes onto er the inner relief road. [Mr E Barnett:] So it might The inner relief road, whichever alignment if I read you right, would actually push more traffic back onto the A fifty nine in Knaresborough. [Mr D Allenby:] Along a section of the A fifty nine yes [Mr E Barnett:] Along a section. Yes. [Mr D Allenby:] A along Forest Lane Head, really the the bit that passes through the countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Mr? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you. Yes I'd like to m make a it's an important point about End. It it does indeed do what Mr said, but there are two other roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate directi one from the Harrogate direction and one from the south east. What the inner northern roads do is encourage people to go into Knaresborough via Bond End but there is a considerable compensating decrease on the other two roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate direction. So if if one takes all three roads into Knaresborough, it does not have it does not increase traffic. It what it tends to do is to encourage more traffic to come into Knaresborough on the main road as opposed to the two secondary roads. The second point to make again, is that where the A fifty nine comes into Knaresborough at Bond End, it is not as busy as it is e on other parts of its length. [Mr D Allenby:] Yes I I don't really want to respond to that other than to say that Bond End is d it's still an extremely important consideration, it's in the conservation area, it's an important part of Knaresborough and it was obviously something that members had in mind when they they made their decision on on the relative merits. [D Whittaker:] But... do you and or your members... place greater weight on the impact on that particular part of Knaresborough as opposed to the impact on Knaresborough and Harrogate generally? [Mr D Allenby:] I don't know if I can answer that to be absolutely honest I I mean I really feel that erm that would be reading too much into the decision that that our members took at that time. [D Whittaker:] Your own view? [Mr D Allenby:] No my my own view [LAUGHTER] and it's I I don't know if I've come to a view on the relative weight of those sorts of considerations er I I'd need to think about it some more before I could come to a view on that. There are other considerations which which come into play, for example the golf course between between Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm now that the inner relief road options would have required some relocation of the of the golf course, would certainly have disrupted erm the golf course and that was undoubtedly a a consideration. Certainly something that the public erm referred to in their consultation response. [Mr E Barnett:] Just to go back a stage, to a comment you made there, you you did say that the inner relief road on one of the routes, on one of those routes, would in fact enable environmental benefits to be felt elsewhere in the town, simply because you're getting a better distribution of the traffic. I mean there there are some dis-benefits but do the benefits that arise from an inner route, outweigh those dis-benefits. I mean has that been examined. [Mr D Allenby:] I it's not been examined sir, no. [Mr E Barnett:] It hasn't been examined.... Mr do you want to raise anything else? [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Very little. Because most of what I have said is fair m most of the case that I wish to put er has come out in the discussion that there has just been. It is also contained in my submission. I will summarize it as follows. The I believe that there is a need for traffic relief to the A fifty nine and to the A six six one. An inner northern relief road [Mr E Barnett:] That is that is the Wetherby Harrogate road isn't it. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] It is yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] The... inner An inner northern bypass would provide that relief, it would be twice as successful in providing relief as an outer northern route. It is true that if one searches on can find some aspects in which the outer northern route is preferable to the inner northern route. Mr has mentioned the number of houses that would require demolition and the amount of greenbelt that would be taken. About those two things I would say that the number of houses requiring demolition is very small, and as has been observed already, a road is not an inappropriate use in the greenbelt. We also have one overall environmental assessment of the impact of the inner relief roads. Not one of the little piece picking a little piece out, but an overall assessment and this was produced for the County Council by their environmental consultants and was specifically referred to in the County Surveyor and I think County Planning Officer's joint report, and that er assessment said, rather than damaging an an irreplaceable, sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. So it is not simply that the inner northern route gives far greater traffic relief than the outer northern and therefore far more effectively meets the need, but also on environmental criteria, the Council's own consultants appear to have found that at least in its effect on the landscape that it is preferable. [Mr E Barnett:] That quote just just so we have it for record, that quote is taken from eight point nine, paragraph eight point nine of your full submission. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] I'll just check. [Mr E Barnett:] Page twelve. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much Mr, Mr would you like to come back? [Mr Mills:] Just er just briefly sir if I may. Erm... clearly in terms of er the relative merits of the of the different routes for an A fifty nine relief road, there are advantages in in in traffic terms er of the inner northern relief roads. Er I think er the important point to remember is that all of these er benefits and dis-benefits were I don't have the [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Well just just to reiterate, I mean we we would still like to have that letter from you confirming that. Mr [Mr D Allenby:] Chairman if I could just erm David, Harrogate Borough Council. If I could just pick up on one point erm and that was related to the the two different types of inner relief road that that was proposed. One set had possible links into Harrogate and the others didn't. And they actually provide different levels of traffic relief. And certainly it was the case as my understanding of it anyway, is that those l er those routes that had links into Harrogate provided far greater relief than those that didn't have links. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr D Allenby:] And that when you look to compare the the merits of those er without links and the outer northern, there's not that much difference. Our concern as Borough Council was with the er inner relief road options that that had links into the urban area. We're very concerned about the environmental effects of those links into Harrogate. Most of which would come onto erm the A fifty nine through the urban area, through residential areas or or in fact onto the stray. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry Mr but just to pursue that point. Those links into Harrogate nevertheless are required are they not in order for the relief road to function. [Mr D Allenby:] They certainly would be required for an inner relief road erm to function effec as effectively as has been suggested at this E I P. [Mr E Barnett:] I think what you're saying is we're not comparing like with like. Mr. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes two two points. First of all, I think... that it it's difficult to be sure of this because of the way in which the County Council prepared their the evidence on which I relayed relied and like Mr I didn't come here prepared to talks in detail about the inner northern. But to the best of my knowledge, the figures I have quoted on the inner northern are without links. It becomes I I do touch on this at one point in my submission, it becomes even better if it has links. I think it's twice as effective without links and it becomes even better with links. That's the first point. The se [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah carry on sorry, the second one. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Right. The second point is about the public consultation exercise. I must... choose my words with care as well that my clients and I think that there was very much an effect of people wanting to have a relief road, but also wanting to have it as far away from themselves a as they could have it. One could use various pejorative terms to describe that which I won't but but my clients felt very strongly that there are not very many people living in Scotton and it was an easy option to say let's push the road further away. What I think the public did not appreciate and I do not think would have appreciated clearly from the consultation leaflet, was quite how big a difference there was between the level of relief afforded by the inner relief roads and the outer relief roads, and in that context, I think that to say that the outer relief roads afford relief of between twenty and thirty percent is a little misleading in two respects. And I don't mean to employ it's in any way dishonest. A little misleading in two respects, on is I think the average person doesn't realize that it's very hard to perceive very much of a difference when there's only a twenty to thirty percent reduction. And secondly erm the way the e the quote was made in the leaflet, doesn't point out the fact that in the part of the road where it's busiest, the part of the A fifty nine where it's busiest and on the A six six one, that the reduction is in fact less than twenty percent. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Finally and then I'd like to go to the A sixty one, er a point of information Mr, the standard that you are talking about for eit any of these routes, is it dual two lane or single two lane? [Mr Mills:] We haven't made that er decision as yet. The [Mr E Barnett:] You haven't made a No. [Mr Mills:] public consultation was on the basis of a dual carriageway and it [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] clearly said that in the [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [Mr Mills:] in the information so we had to we had to assume one for the purpose of public consultation but we said that the final decision on standards would be taken er in another time. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] Clearly when we make a planning application we have to er finalize that. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you can can we now move to the A sixty one? You've been very patient Mr. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] [LAUGHTER] interested in that conversation. [Mr E Barnett:] Er Mr can I just pursue the general theme? As I see it, you have talked about the A sixty one... er and the idea of having a western relief road would remove something like seven thousand vehicles from the existing A sixty one. Have I read your comments correctly? Something of that order. [Mr Mills:] That's right, seventy seven thousand which is thirty percent of [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yes. Seven thousand out of [Mr Mills:] The actual flows on the bypass are higher than that [Mr E Barnett:] Well [Mr Mills:] in certain locations but for reasons which go into [Mr E Barnett:] No no no no can I no no yes just let just let me pursue pursue the the thing the way I would like to at the moment. Erm that seven thousand e those seven thousand vehicles, is that the through traffic element on the present day A sixty one? Or in oth can I put it another way? In fact what is the through traffic element on the existing A sixty one?... [Mr Mills:] Right. Er the A sixty one, it varies whether you're looking at the A sixty one south or the A sixty one north as to what percentage and what flow er is through traffic and also between which e elements or which radials we're talking about because there's A sixty one to A sixty one, there's also A sixty one to A fifty nine which is also through traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. [Mr Mills:] Er but based upon the surveys that we conducted in er nineteen eighty nine which is the basis of the traffic forecasts, er on and that is just twelve hour two way flows, we have a total flow on the A sixty one north er entering Harrogate of sixteen thousand three hundred vehicles. Now of that, fifty four percent was heading for Harrogate and Knaresborough. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] So that's roughly nine thousand ten thousand vehicles. [Mr Mills:] Er that's right roughly roughly of that order [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah well [Mr Mills:] W eight thousand eight hundred I can give you the precise figure was local traffic headed for Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm thirty three percent of that figure was heading South and was through traffic. Er eleven percent er was heading west on the A fifty nine. [Mr E Barnett:] So [Mr Mills:] Which is traffic coming down the A sixty one and heading west on the A fifty nine. Er north [Mr E Barnett:] Coming from the north? [Mr Mills:] It's coming from the north yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Coming from the north yes. Yeah. [Mr Mills:] But at the moment that doesn't use the A sixty one, it uses the the B road that comes through Killinghall to join [Mr E Barnett:] Yes yes yes. turning off somewhere Killinghall [Mr Mills:] In in the centre of Killinghall yes yes. [Mr E Barnett:] In the centre of Killinghall yeah. [Mr Mills:] Erm so that was er that was eleven percent but the total through traffic observed on the A sixty one north was er seven thousand five hundred a day. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Mills:] So this is why clearly, some of that would be taken out of Harrogate [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] and some of it is taken out of Killinghall. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] Er because the traffic clearly isn't carrying on down through but nevertheless is through traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Mills:] Which is the relief road does resolves [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [Mr Mills:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] So but the residual element which would carry on south through Harrogate is [Mr Mills:] Yes? [Mr E Barnett:] just remind me again, is how much? Eleven was it eleven? [Mr Mills:] Well the [cough] the or residual element er if you take out the I haven't got this figure actually to in this little table I've got here but if you bear with me one moment. [Mr E Barnett:] Did you say twenty three percent? [Mr Mills:] Thirty three percent of er [Mr E Barnett:] Thirty three percent [Mr Mills:] of sixteen thousand three hundred was [Mr E Barnett:] five thousand four hundred yes. [Mr Mills:] Roughly five thousand. [Mr E Barnett:] Give or take yes.... Coming from the Leeds direction? [Mr Mills:] Right again that's slightly complicated in that we have two roads coming from the Leeds direction and the [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Mills:] surveys were undertaken on both of those, the A sixty f five eight and the A sixty one. [Mr E Barnett:] Which is the A six five eight? [Mr Mills:] The A six six five eight if you look at the the bottom of the two roads, it's the one on the left which is going on down off the plan. The A six five eight to Leeds. The A sixty one is is heading due south.... [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah this is the one that goes down to Poole isn't it. [Mr Mills:] Yes that's right. Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Mhm. [Mr Mills:] Erm... if you look at the A... six five eight, then er seventy five percent of that traffic is heading into Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm seventeen percent is headed north through traffic. Erm a fairly low percentage, three percent er travelling East, and just one percent are travelling west. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Mills:] So there's just over two thousand vehicles. Er there's an ei total flow of eight thousand two hundred, now six thousand one hundred and fifty of that is local traffic, two thousand and fifty is passing through. [D Whittaker:] Sorry could you repeat the figure for through traffic? [Mr Mills:] Two thousand and fifty vehicles. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr Mills:] This is in a twelve hour so for a daily flow we've This was a surveying period about twenty percent for to these for a full day. [Mr E Barnett:] So am I am I right in thinking that the western relief road is catering for a north south through traffic element, but its primary purpose is to provide relief to the main e the present A sixty one which runs through the centre of Harrogate and again would seek to distribute traffic around the network and bring it in on other radial roads from the West for example? [Mr Mills:] Well it's got two two purposes [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] rather than I think differentiate the sort of primary. I think the pr if there has to be a primary purpose it is a actually to take out the traffic which doesn't belong in Harrogate [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] or Knaresborough at all, which is the primary both routes are part of the primary route network, the national network er and feel it's not appropriate for for that traffic to be passing through the urban area. Now that element there was an element if you're making a note of figures, we didn't do the A sixty one south in case you [Mr E Barnett:] No yeah [Mr Mills:] we missed out some traffic through traffic. Erm there's the A sixty one south again where there is another two thousand three hundred vehicles heading in which is totally through [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Mills:] Harrogate on the A six from the A sixty one. But clearly the it forms two purposes, one is to remove the er the through traffic but also it it forms a purpose of redistribution of the traffic such that er there are er benefits er of getting er traffic off the A sixty one which for example is headed for the for the northern part of Harrogate and that that can come in from the South, it can go up to the A fifty nine and then come back into the northern part of Harrogate without having to pass through the centre of Harrogate. And that's a sort of fairly normal function of a of any bypass is to particularly of a larger er urban area as opposed to say a village or a small town is to have connecti connections in er to the to the larger urban area at a number of points. Just to spread the traffic [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] and to provide benefits er for that local traffic as well as for the through traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, so you'd anticipate some coming in on the A fifty nine, if you went that far north, [Mr Mills:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] erm and other traffic would come in from on the B six one six two. [Mr Mills:] That is the only other other connection, yes. And that [Mr E Barnett:] yes. [Mr Mills:] there and perhaps coming on to the Residents' Association point that made in their proof, that our forecasts actually show that on balance, er er there would be an increase in flow in fact on the on that route as it approaches the A sixty one. That what you get in terms of the the effect is that some traffic er will go out to use er the western relief road, to head north or south, and will no longer use the road to get into Harrogate. Er particular there is er a commercial business area at Harlow c court er located on the the western fringe er which clearly at the moment, a lot of our traffic will have to use Road to get into Harrogate and to access to the A sixty one. Now a significant part of that traffic will in the future or with such a road, er make use of that and would no longer have to use Road. Er there are major plans as well as I understand it, Mr can confirm, for extension of that or expansion of that area, already agreed in the local plan. And clearly that would be of benefit er to Road in terms of relieving the pressure from that traffic. There is a plus in that there is extra traffic c would come in and use Road to gain access to Harrogate. But it's a question of pluses and minuses. The figures that we've produced show that on balance er it it's about a neutral effect on Road er through the residential area because of this er reductions due to traffic going out to join the relief road rather than joining the A sixty one. [D Whittaker:] Have you evaluated the relative costs and benefits... of... an eastern relief road as opposed to the western relief road? I'm playing devil's advocate again. It seems to me that given that you have a southern bypass, there could be an argument for saying, if we had a northern inner relief road, that northern inner relief road together with a southern bypass, could perform some of the functions of the western relief road. [Mr Mills:] Yes we're back to the inner inner northern routes aren't we? Erm [D Whittaker:] Have you evaluated this option? [Mr Mills:] We did we did evaluate that option er as part of the er early assessments, I don't have the results today. Er but certainly it wasn't as effective er as a western relief road. Er it is er significantly further er via a southern bypass and an inner relief road than it is via a western relief road. And it wasn't as effective but other than that I can't I don't have the sort of the detailed information to er to refer to. [Mr E Barnett:] When you say it wasn't as effective, in what what sense wasn't it as effective. I mean wasn't was it less attractive [Mr Mills:] It was less attractive to traffic. [Mr E Barnett:] to say the through traffic element erm erm didn't didn't function as well in terms of distributing traffic around the network which wanted to access. [Mr Mills:] It didn't er it is a difficult for me because I don't have the figures er but er Mr er my assistant who er er did do the detailed work, er tells me that it didn't provide as much traffic relief to the A sixty one as did a western relief. [Mr E Barnett:] I'm quite happy for Mr to comment direct if he wishes. [Mr Alan Williams:] Sir, Alan, North Yorkshire County Council. Er during the stages er we did look at ways of er providing relief to the A sixty one erm by er using the southern bypass and then any of the inner northern routes. And in doing so we looked at er other routes than shown on that plan there in order to encourage traffic to use those options. Er by effectively where we've got the er combination of colours joining on to the southern bypass, we looked at moving that in a westerly direction to encourage that movement. Er I honestly can't remember what the the breakdown on the figures are but er even by moving that inner route direction er we were unable er within the traffic model to actually er encourage so much re as much relief on the A sixty one what the actual figures were I haven't got them to hand sir at the moment. But we did look at that as er as an option. [D Whittaker:] Can you remember for example, given the the levels of relief you are advocating are acceptable on the blue route, how such roads such a link as an alternative to the western link would perform. [Mr Alan Williams:] Yeah I I ca I haven't got the to hand. [Mr Mills:] I don't think [Mr Alan Williams:] I'm sorry [Mr Mills:] I don't think we'd like to er comment on that without er I think further notice and having having a look at the figures. [D Whittaker:] I you have not said it would not meet the Department of Transports criteria for financial support for example. [Mr Mills:] No. I don't have that er information to be able to er to give you today. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr do you want to [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Terry, Harlow and Ash Residents' Association. Er two points at this stage. Erm coming back to an original comment made by Mr. As part of the er western relief road you said that the A sixty one north of Killinghall has in fact a very poor accident record. Er and you actually acknowledged my comments about the hairpin bends and the crossroads. And is is not a fact that in fact the Killinghall bypass and the Ripon bypass, in fact does nothing to in fact i er alleviate those particular problems over about a seven mile stretch. And is it not therefore necessary if you're going to justify this western relief road and quote your own words, as a key link to the north, that will there have to do further work in order to make that road acceptable. Otherwise you will be increasing the accident risks by directing traffic in that way. And finally, surely at this present moment, only four miles east of Harrogate and about three miles east of Ripon the A s A one is at this very moment in time being lifted to an acceptable standard A motorway standard at this stage and not in the year two thousand which is what you're talking about for this road. And finally Mr chairman on this point, we did in fact do some checking to see the sense of using what the county planning committee had recommended to the H er Highways and Transport Committee that they should regard the six five eight, A five nine one as the correct link to the A one. Six of our residents took part in a driving exercise and we demonstrated that clearly and this is for your benefit we'll give it to you, although it's three miles longer to the point where the A sixty one joins the A one, even with the present state of the A one, it is ten minutes quicker to go via the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one route. It is much easier and it's much safer and it strikes me to to be making the case for a western relief road to provide the relief north to the A one, has already been achieved on the six five eight. Er that's my first point on that, the second point on the same issue of the financial case justification. In the original case that was put forward, the basis of the economical assessment and its traffic flows, was on the western relief road being the first to be built. The case in fact that was put forward by the North Yorkshire County Council Highways and Traffic committee was in fact that the need as so clearly expressed by Mr is that it is the A fifty nine that needs the relief more than anything else an therefore the proposal is that the northern relief road be it an inner or an outer, be built first. Particularly because in your own words, the accident relief it will. Have you therefore reassessed the western relief road's benefits on the base that y you will have now at that point in time both a southern A fifty nine, A one link and a southern northern link, if you want it for the A sixty one north of Harrogate. Now have these figures been reassessed at all? Thank you Mr chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] The A six five eight includes the i in your terminology includes the the er recently opened southern relief road doesn't it? [Mr W Terry Byrne:] I'm sorry Mr chairman I w [Mr E Barnett:] The A six five eight is the is also [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Is the southern bypass. [Mr E Barnett:] inclusive of the southern bypass. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Is the southern bypass. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yes. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Erm that's the diagram. [speaker001:] Yes. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] There's some more information on the back which I'd like to come to later. That's the actual diagram of the timetables. Does he want one I haven't I haven't I haven't... [D Whittaker:] Perhaps while Mr is studying er that piece of paper, I could ask Mr a question? You said at the beginning of the debate on this matter, you supported an orbital relief road system. Can I ask why? [Mr D Allenby:] Yes chairman, David, Harrogate Borough Council. Erm the question of the need for or the need for an orbital route has been put to our members on a number of occasions. er most recently in nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one. The main reason is obviously as I said earlier in my in my erm summary of my statement, to reduce congestion, reduce delays, to reduce accidents and to give scope for environmental improvements within the urban area. If you don't have the full orbital system then you don't get the full scale of relief that we're seeking. [D Whittaker:] But you have less roads and therefore less... environmental damage where those roads pass. [Mr D Allenby:] Certainly it's the case that there's a a down side if you like with providing the new roads through what is mostly open countryside. We in com in coming to a view on the principle of an orbital system, looked at erm those issues in very general terms and clearly erm we'll will through the process of either a planning application or the local plan and i would say at this point that we we already have er a member commitment to include the preferred option of the County Council within the local plan as we move forward to our consultation draft next year, we would obviously look more rigorously at the the pros and cons of er particular road schemes. [D Whittaker:] But you think the environmental benefits of the western relief road outweigh its dis-benefits? [Mr D Allenby:] The environmental benefits taken together with the reductions in congestion and traffic and accidents, outweigh the environmental dis-benefits, yes. [D Whittaker:] Thank you.... [Mr D Allenby:] If I could add there, subject to the proviso that erm I mentioned earlier that the western relief road is pursued on the basis of a single carriageway road. [D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr? [Mr Mills:] Yes thank you chairman. Er in fact I have now, Mr has found the er the report which has actually got the traffic assessment e that we've just been referring to which is er no western relief road but with in an inner northern road. And in fact that showed no relief to the A sixty one at all in that it was quicker for traffic to actually pass er through on the A sixty one going to the to the traffic model and the all the assumptions built into it, er than it was to use a southern bypass er out to the inner northern route and then back to the A sixty one south of Killinghall. And so we didn't actually get any relief to the A sixty one in that particular test. Now clearly that you know this is a the the model that we have is a daily one, it is a twelve hour model. Er but we could have run assessments at peak times compared to off peak times probably got slightly different effects at peak times. Er I would accept that. Er but in the way that we assessed er all of these options and which again is fairly normal for you know, major relief road bypasses, er it was indicating er that it wouldn't provide any relief to the A sixty one. And I'm not saying that's the reason but clearly that is er factor and and certainly some of the points we were making about distribution of traffic er on the western side of harrogate er clearly that wouldn't have had the benefits of providing that that connection on the western side, it would have concentrated all connections between Harrogate and Knaresborough and given rise to more concentrated local traffic effects in that area than would be the case er with an outer western er relief road. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr first, then Mr Sorry. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] All I wanted to know sir was which page Mr was on, I I'll comment later I just want to know which page it is please. I've got the [speaker001:] We're not on a page. Oh. Right. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Yes. [speaker001:] Er... it's a plan rather than a page. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Right.... [Mr E Barnett:] Mr before you that one was a question that but could you pick up the questions which Mr raised. [Mr Mills:] Yeah certainly sir.... The er the first point as i understand is is with regard to use of the the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one as opposed to the er using a western relief road, that being er a more appropriate route. In fact erm we have clearly in terms of the of the southern bypass is in place er and and also the A one, er there are two other schemes we do have in place so in terms of doing travel times and seeing er which is the quickest route we have to to some extent er Well we rely upon the traffic model. But there are two factors er that come into play, one is the A one motorway proposals, er the other is the Ripon bypass which is currently under construction as well which we're also reviewing. a blockage a significant blockage on the A sixty one increase journey times or reduce journey times on the A sixty one as opposed to southern bypass and A one. But we did recognize that in opening the southern bypass, it would have an effect on traffic pattern. Er the work that I've referred to earlier in terms of the through traffic, was assessed before the southern bypass was open er and so we did put in place er a traffic automatic traffic counters on a number of key routes er to see whether on opening of the southern bypass, the actual effects er where the same as we were modelling cos clearly we were concerned that we didn't want to be er basing our assessments of of of of further relief roads on a false premise. Er and so we did we did we did look at the traffic flows and monitor them. We monitored them for a period of about twelve months before we reported to members on the outcome. Er and that er in my view anyway demonstrated that we'd got it about right in terms of our assessment of the effects of the Southern Bypass. Er there was very little effect on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate or to the north of Harrogate, the sorts of traffic flows that we had prior the southern bypass are still there. There hasn't been a switch from the A using the A sixty one er to get across to the A one using the southern bypass, that just hasn't happened in practice. There's a very small difference of two and a half percent which Mr refers to in his proof as being a change er in the figures which I would accept. Indeed I've included as you'll know in table two to my statement, er the effects of the of the southern bypass. There is a very small change on the A sixty one of two and a half percent. That really is within the er the grounds for error in any traffic count. Er indeed nationally there has been in the last twelve months, a three percent er reduction in traffic flows in any event. Erm so that response to using the southern bypass the A one, certainly some traffic might find that heading north will find that attractive. But it hasn't been reflected in traffic flows on the A sixty one to date. And some of the traffic of course isn't heading A one north of the A sixty one. There is quite a lot of local traffic er I say local, is heading for the area you know, north of Harrogate er erm to er to the Dales, er to Ripon er and points between Harrogate er and the A one to the north. Er on on the question of the A sixty one itself erm and the remaining sections that need to be improved, which again will make it more attractive compared with the A one. There the Ripon bypass which is under construction, I mentioned. The Killinghall bypass er does bypass some of the severe bends of at the southern ends. I accept that there are then still there is still a section er of six or seven miles between that improvement and Ripon. Er there is a scheme in fact on our reserve list of of major schemes for that section of road. [Mr E Barnett:] This is the bit going past isn't it. [Mr Mills:] Yeah. Well the bit just past Ripley no will be bypassed by the by the Killinghall er section. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Mills:] As you'll see from the [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] erm well no actually that's It's not the line on the green dots because that's a er er an older plan, but is in fact it's shown better on the er the aerial photograph where you can see the the currently preferred or the preferred route for the northern outer northern route, er and the link up to the A sixty one to the north. You can see that that now is quite a substantial length of new road er which in fact er does bypass the Ripley roundabout er and goes some distance to the north on the A sixty one where it rejoins. Er but the major capitol programme but has not yet been included arrows, E [Mr E Barnett:] Mr 's second question related to the... question of whether rows, E [Mr Mills:] Yes we have. Er and that showed er in fact when we reported to members in July of this year, we were seeking from them er an indication as to the priority of the phasing because prior to that and in fact it's reflected in the structure plan, we simply have a a scheme for A fifty nine, A sixty one relief roads, they're not broken down into the two schemes. Er as the schemes progressed forward in the programme, we need to break those down into manageable packages er to progress them sensibly through the the various stages. Er and erm we did for that er report er as indeed in fact we had earlier in any event, we'd looked at them separately, we haven't simply put in an orbital route, we had assessed in the traffic model er as separate schemes. Er and we found at that earlier stage, they acted largely independently. Er the the one had very little effect on the other. The A fifty nine relief road had very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate and vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate. And vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on the A fifty nine. Er we did that exercise again er to advise members on which had priority, so we did assessments with a southern bypass clearly already there, with a northern relief road in place, assessed that against the situation with no western relief road. And similarly for the western er and that er report was used to er to advise members on priorities. But there was still you know a substantial It was more or less the same case as we had before in terms of the traffic relief that each afforded and the economic rates of return. We weren't getting er traffic which would otherwise be on the western relief road going along the southern bypass and then round the northern bypass to get back to the A sixty one. Clearly it it wouldn't do that, it's twenty two kilometres further than actually staying on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate. We would have great difficulty persuading traffic to do it. [D Whittaker:] Your northern road was the blue route was it? She said, feeling like a terrier attacking a bone. [Mr Mills:] That's right. Yes yes. [Mr E Barnett:] You didn't do a similar assignment for the inner route north? [Mr Mills:] Well cl clearly not in July of this year because [Mr E Barnett:] No. [Mr Mills:] as far as the committee was concerned there is they've taken a decision on the preferred route, but we did as I've just referred to in the earlier work, er we did assess that erm and that showed again er that the traffic wouldn't transfer from the A sixty one onto a southern bypass and a inner northern relief road. [Mr E Barnett:] Well Mr sorry [Mr G Arrowsmith:] I'd just like to comment on this this matter [Mr E Barnett:] Name name please. [LAUGHTER] [Mr G Arrowsmith:] George. Speaking this time for Residents' Association. I'd like to comment on this matter of the relationship between the western relief road and a possible inner northern relief road. I have tried to e ascertain which particular diagram in this report Mr was quote quoting from. I think I I've found the report er the particular map. If I have,e I have to say that I don't think that the particular version of the inner northern route had its junction with the southern bypass moved to the west. Which would obviously be a necessary change to make if it was going to relieve the western bypass. That's my understanding but it is based on shuffling t right. So so I think there could be some improvement there. M more importantly, the technique which is used for predicting traffic flows which the County Council ha have used. U uses what is called an all or nothing assignment. Which means that it assigns all the traffic to the shortest route. Er the cheapest route I should say, it's an amalgam of erm travel time and cost. Now if it so happened that the A sixty one was seen as a marginally shorter route, then the model would have sent all the through traffic along the A s sixty one and none along around the bypass. It wouldn't have taken as Mr has pointed out, any cognizance of the fact that there's difference for different times of the day, nor would it have taken any account of the fact that people would perceive the travel times and travel costs in different ways. That brings me onto another point which is made in the panel's submission that people have talked all the time about the limits of traffic management on the A sixty one as if the objective of traffic management was to get through Harrogate quicker. Now that's not what we are suggesting. If you made it a little more difficult for through traffic to go through Harrogate, that would encourage traffic to divert to whichever relief road that you had and it would achieve an environmental objective at relatively little cost. What I'm suggesting is that it ought to be possible to design an inner northern relief road with an appropriate junction and with appropriate traffic managements in the centre of Harrogate so that you can encourage a significant proportion of the traffic that would otherwise have used the western relief road to divert to the southern bypass and inner relief road. I cannot prove that but I do not think that the tests which have been carried out by the County Council refute that possibility. [Mr E Barnett:] Any comment Mr? [Mr Mills:] Mr is is correct in in saying that er the diagram doesn't show er shows it on that line which clearly was the line was the comment point for all the inner routes at that time, but as Mr said. we did actually try as part of those tests although not reflected in that particular figure, er moving it to see whether we could encourage that er a different effect. Er er and and and that wasn't the case. I think I think I go back to this point about I think in concept anyway I'm not happy about er a proposition that er that function is performed or I can see the disadvantages significant disadvantages in having the traffic er for both the A sixty one er and the A fifty nine c and its links into Harrogate and Knaresborough, concentrated on that er on on inner northern line. I can see real problems er on the A fifty nine for example of traffic coming back into Harrogate or into Knaresborough er from that er from that junction on the A fifty nine. It's far better in my view to have a f a more balanced er distribution of the traffic er that you achieve by having er a separate route for the A sixty one to the west. Because it does mean then that that traffic er on the western side of Harrogate can get out to the western relief road as there's no need then to go on the urban roads in Harrogate. And that wouldn't be the case er with er with some of the er with with the option that's being put forward. [D Whittaker:] I'm not asking for a lesson on highway modelling particularly at half past four... in the afternoon but... what's your reaction to what Mr said about the way in which your model would perform in other words on an all or nothing basis, when it's shorter it all goes that way?... Regardless of how much ongoing that way. [Mr Mills:] Yeah. [D Whittaker:] Or perceptions of how much time it takes [Mr Mills:] Right. [D Whittaker:] actually change. [Mr Mills:] Again in any traffic model there are pluses and minuses, the simplistic assumption is and it's it's a common techniques used in in in in traffic models er for for schemes of this type er that you do use all or nothing. there are other techniques. Er traffic is spread around er in that the area is divided into a number of zones, so when you talk about er shortest route and all traffic being assigned, then certainly in terms of the a lot of the local traffic and the through traffic in terms of where it's loaded into the model, each individual journey between A and B between each zone A and each zone B is loaded onto its shortest point. But there are a lot of A to Bs loaded onto the the network. Er and therefore the the overall effect is a more of spreading the traffic than simply it all appearing on one route. Having said that in the case of a of a a of a through movement, I accept that we are loading at at the traffic in at the A sixty one if you like and it's coming out at the A sixty one north. And therefore there can be a more marked effect as a result of this this all or nothing technique. Er clearly when we have got that situation, we don't just simply put the numbers in and press the button and you get the answer out at the end, er the people who er did this for us at the time, er are professional er transportation consultants er and given that the key er one of the key outputs from this model was the effect of a er a bypass, then this is something that we looked at in in some detail as well as er the actual effects that the model was putting out. Now you know, having said that I accept that if we did a peak hour model and an off peak model we would have shown different effects. it's a more broad brush appro approach. That we that we have to look at these at this stage of the scheme. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] George,s sorry. I I want to say er t two things. I think Chris and I are are in agreement e about the technical issues here. Erm I'm simply saying that there is a possibility of a an inner relief road taking some of the traffic, an inner northern relief road, taking some of the traffic that might otherwise have remained on the A sixty one. And not a technical matter but a policy matter, I think that the probabilities of it doing that could be er increased by traffic calming measures on the A sixty one to make it take longer to go through Harrogate that way. However what I want to emphasize is that Residents' Association's case is not does not rely on an inner northern route acting as a an alternative to a western rel route. The main part of Residents' Association case is that the amount of relief afforded by any western relief road, does not justify the environmental damage which that road will cause. I respect er the view that was put to me in the extract from P P G twelve, but i nevertheless think that this is a matter of principle because it doesn't apply to a particular res western route, it applies to all the western routes. It is the Association that all the western routes cause severe environmental damage. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Terry, Residents' Association. Er two points, one comes onto environment for Mr who says that they are seeking for the environmental benefits to the A sixty one and relates something to the percentages. Erm I don't understand and all of that but what we quickly did, we assessed the seven thousand er and the actual environmental benefit means instead of a vehicle every three point five seconds on the A sixty one, there'll only be one every four point eight seconds. And I would like to ask and if you know anything about the the topography of Harrogate, the second er most attractive feature of this town after the Nidd Gorge is in fact. A volcanic crag with a superb wo wood face to is with many footpaths through it. The present road and I don't want to get into the detail of it but relate it to environmental costs against the so called benefits, would in fact cut right through there with a viaduct and it would actually start of on something like a twenty seven foot emba er a twenty seven foot high embankment and with a fifty four deep cutting. And what I would like to ask in in this environmental age that we live in, for a benefit to the people on the A sixty one, for a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds, using your own figures, how can you justify and quantify the cost of the environmental damage that will be done to what is regarded as the finest visual attractive side of Harrogate. Valley, Beck, Crag and right next to in fact in this particular line, I have to say this, next to Gardens which is a both an international and national recognized er facility in this er in our envir in our town which attracts many many visitors. And would be seriously undermined by any proposed road that will come in on the western side. And I just don't know Mr chairman how they quantify that kind of benefit in traffic flows on the A sixty one which is what they're trying to claim, against the environmental impact,. Notwithstanding we do not believe as we've already said that flows of traffic justify and coming if I may er before Mr answers to give him time to think about it, to the figures from Mr. He quotes that in fact the accuracy of their predictions and forecasts would suggest that they are. And I again don't understand these figures because I take from table two and I see the A sixty one er reading going from twenty four thousand to nineteen thousand on the opening of the bypass. I also find that he's been quoting some twelve hour figures and the only ones I have, you may have them er Mr chairman, are from the H and T C report in July of last year where they forecasted four thousand nine hundred on the A six five eight and achieve eight thousa for nineteen ninety six and achieved eight thousand one hundred now. A sixty percent increase of traffic on the A six five eight. Those don't seem to correspond with suggestion of the tight close proximity of your figures. In fact, finally on the actually opening of the complete phase the er the increase on the six five eight was on the completion at that lower section, was in fact a sixty percent increase from six thousand to nine thousand. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr are you going to pick up the first point and then Mr. [Mr D Allenby:] Cer certainly chairman, David, Harrogate Borough Council. Clearly it's it's very difficult to er to be very specific about this sort of thing. After a after all what we're talking about is is what er a subjective assessment. Erm our members and the County members have come to a a a judgement and a decision based on all that information, all the information that you you have just mentioned to this E I P. We we've looked at the implication of a r a western route. We've looked at the benefits that would accrue from providing traffic relief along the A sixty one corridor. W that has all been quantified as as best it can through all the various reports and very detailed information that's been provided for for members. And they've come to a judgement on those issues and their judgement is that erm they s should support the principle of a western route. I can't really say any more as to how they themselves have come to come to their particular judgement, but that is the judgement of the members. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Mr chairman? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes Mr. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Terry,. I take it that you're not disputing then that the change in the traffic flows that I've indicated would actually what would be achieved? [Mr D Allenby:] Well I don't dispute, I've no information myself. I'm not I don't necessarily want to dispute them erm all I would say is that we have to look at the implications don't just look at the change in the traffic flows and take them as a as a point, you have to look at the implications of those changes in traffic flows. My understanding is that change of traffic flows along the A sixty one, through Harrogate and Knaresborough will or through Harrogate anyway, will allow significant improvements to the environment to be to be attained through for example erm pedestrian er refuges on on the roads through i er allowing er pedestrian er priority areas. We can look at erm increased public transport, use of cyclist lanes, that sort of thing. So th there is plenty of scope erm to look at improvements for pedestrian cyclists and the im environments in general. Very difficult to quantify them at this stage but certainly it's it's my advice that er there will be distinct improvements in the environment. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Are you Sorry, Terry, Residents' Association. Erm are you saying then that erm... you have actually quantified and and related that in some way to the the damage which has been evident through all of the statements from Harrogate Borough Council, to in fact the N Y C C and acknowledged by the N Y C of the environmental impact that this will have. Er that all of that has actually been quantified in financial terms to be expressed against the simple value of the gains that you're talking about. And if I may Mr chairman, something that's happened in the last few days, that's er evident that er the been the first satellite survey in this country ever which is now beginning to show to the nation, just in fact the damage that roads have been doing and that there's in fact now some suggestion from government that they may be rethinking some elements of these roads, because the environmental impact has not really been taken into account as effectively before. [Mr D Allenby:] No I'm saying precisely the opposite, David, Harrogate Borough Council. It's very difficult to quantify those sorts of effects and er to members and the decision makers have to come to a judgement as best they can, given the information that's before them. [Mr E Barnett:] I take the point Mr, I don't think you're going to get a different answer from Mr on this one. Mr do you want to come back on Mr 's comment about traffic flows? [Mr Mills:] Yes. On the traffic flows, yes yes. I mean I just if I can just add to that er last debate about the the the the effects in terms of er vehicles every so many minutes or seconds. Er clearly what we're saying is that that there would be a thirty percent reduction on the A sixty one either side of the town centre. That i is a significant reduction in traffic flows. Erm one of the points that hasn't been mentioned in terms of the benefits discussed earlier is that the forecasts are that n because of the horrendous accident record of the A sixty one, that transfer of thirty percent of the traffic onto a high standard, modern and much safer road, will result in a reduction in between seven hundred and a thousand people er being injured on the A sixty one during the thirty year er lifespan of the western relief road. That is the forecast in the papers. That is a substantial benefit er to the community. And that includes our estimate based on current statistics, between fourteen and seventeen fatalities.... Just on the on on the figures er Sir in terms of table two er that Mr refers to, the... er the figures for the A sixty one, I think there perhaps is some confusion here. You'll see that we have attached a diagram er which shows the location of the traffic counts that Mr I think is referring to in table two. Here is a diagram that shows the locations and you'll see that on the A sixty one, we have three er permanent traffic counters recording traffic flows. Er five, six and seven. Five is to the north of Killinghall and you'll see from the table attached, table two that er prior to the opening of the phase one of the bypasses, it was opened in two phases between the A sixty one and the six six one in the southern half was opened first. And then the the final bypass was completed. You'll see that at point five er there was very little change on the in the A sixty one flow er following the opening of the bypass this is some months er afterwards. Erm at point six which is in the centre of Harrogate, again you'll see there was virtually er no change in five hundred vehicles a day in twenty one thousand. Er and the point that er Mr 's referring to as point seven, which is the A sixty one. Now the reason for the five thousand reduction there is that there is traffic or there was traffic that previously er came up the A sixty one but then went along Follyfoot Road which is the road you'll see on the plan which parallels the southern bypass, and that is why up that very short section er there was this reduction er which was heading for points to the east, which clearly went on then to the southern bypass. But in terms of the effect of a western relief road, it's clearly is more critical is the the flows in the centre of Harrogate and to the north. As to whether of this longer distance traffic was being diverted around the southern bypass. The other point on the increase in the A six five eight six five eight fl is at point thirteen, er yes there has there was an increase of three thousand vehicles a day, er on that road with the opening of the Southern bypass. That clearly has proved to be attractive from other routes outside this immediate area with the opening of the southern bypass. So sorry I'm looking at the wrong the wr that is the southern bypass.... Yes the flow sorry, point thirteen and fourteen, thirteen is on the southern bypass, I thought Mr was referring to another flow which [Mr W Terry Byrne:] No no. [Mr Mills:] we don't have in this table, it's on the A six five eight. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] You were referring to tw sorry you were referring to twelve hour flows which [Mr Mills:] Mm. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] part of the documentation I received, so I presume you're extracting it from the H and T report of the second of July nineteen ninety two. Ninety three rather. Which is the only twelve hour You actually quoted the eight thousand figure earlier on. Er it was something that you brought in into the discussion so I [Mr Mills:] About the through traffic er element [Mr W Terry Byrne:] No. [Mr Mills:] I was talking about twelve hour because the surveys that we did in eighty nine were [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Yeah. [Mr Mills:] twelve hour base and were were [Mr W Terry Byrne:] So that's in [Mr Mills:] figures I was quoting [Mr W Terry Byrne:] sorry. So in in response you said that they they were for accuracy and I pointed out to you that that at site thirteen there was a sixty percent error from your forecast for three years hence, nineteen ninety six and what is in fact being achieved at this very moment in time. So it quite clearly there's traffic going on to there that doesn't with what you're saying. [Mr Mills:] Er yes we with the the the prediction, phase one we didn't predict the partial opening of the bypass clearly before we did it, that was just how it happened in practice. The the forecast of there was nine thousand on the er bypass when it was completed fully to the A fifty nine. So it's not the six thousand figure, that that's not really relevant as I see it to the debate about the forecast because that was simply a partial opening the bypass. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Mr chairman, er Terry again from. Er Mr has referred to site number five which was the A six one north of Killinghall and because we've already had this discussion, I would presume the inner relief road would have dramatically changed those figures there. [Mr Mills:] The inner relief road would have changed the figures. Erm I'm not sure [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Well it's north of Killinghall and therefore travelling in towards the town seeking to go round is what you're saying. If you had the inner relief road those figures would in fact therefore change quite dramatically in the same way that the A sixty one figures have changed. Well the fact that we had certainly at point six which is in the centre of the urban area which is where we clearly we're mainly concerned about is where most of the accidents for example are happening. Erm the effect was that that er on on on on the assessment we did at the time, that it wouldn't have affected flows on the A sixty one in the centre of Harrogate. That was the assessment that we that we did, it didn't show any effect on that er on the A sixty one critical part through the urban area. [Mr E Barnett:] I think the point that Mr is making if I read him correctly is that is you had an inner relief road, in fact it would siphon off traffic from the A sixty one going south from say the Killinghall bypass or relief road. And wouldn't w and could be redistributed round the network. That's the point isn't it Mr? [Mr W Terry Byrne:] It is indeed Mr. [Mr E Barnett:] I I I thought we'd covered that one actually Mr. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] I'm sorry. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, it's alright. Er before you come in Mr, erm I don't know how many more points you want to raise on this to erm we have another session which starts at five thirty. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] So Mr and then Mr. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Thank you. George, Residents.... I want to start by emphasizing again that er... I consider that the amount of traffic relief afforded to the A sixty one would be relatively low. Given that it's relatively low, the small adjustments that I'm about to talk about assume greater significance. The County Council has always said that the western relief road would produce a reduction of thirty one percent in the amount of traffic on the A sixty one immediately north and south of the town centre. However, what I have done is to use detailed assignment printouts given to me by the County Council, it's erm these things here, to look at the changes in traffic flow along the whole length of the A sixty one between its southern junction with a proposed western relief road and its northern junction with a western relief road. And I have averaged out the changes over all the various sections of the A sixty one. And I calculate that the average change over the whole length of the A sixty one is a little lower at twenty seven percent, it's not a lot though, it's a little lower at twenty seven percent. If we then take the effect which the southern bypass appears to have had, on the A sixty one, a two and a half percent reduction, we are then down to something marginally under twenty five percent. I do not intend these figures to be taken as strictly accurate estimates, clearly they can't be. They simply give some indication of the level of relief. In other words if there's nothing wrong with the modelling technique, even then the level of re relief is perhaps something closer to twenty five percent over the A sixty one as a whole. I would like to in that context, I would like to ask both Mr and Mr as question. In section six of my submission on behalf of Residents I refer to the environmental impact of traffic flow changes on existing roads. And I draw on the same manual of environmental appraisal that erm Mr has mentioned in in his evidence, the Department of Transport's manual. It in many instances it isn't specific about levels of traffic reduction which are significant. But it does mention them in at least two contexts, one is when you're measuring noise when it says that changes of twenty five percent should be recorded. I accept that. it's very clear, that's right at the bottom end of what they think should be recorded and until this recent manual p was published, it changes that low were not recorded. Secondly it says that for pedestrian severance, that changes have to be of the degree of thirty percent before they become s significant. Now I have had er quite a lot of experience in the environmental analysis of er road proposals and their effect on existing roads. On the basis of that experience, I think that the western relief road doesn't achieve very much environmental relief to existing roads. But I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it, that's why I'm drawing on the Department's manual which confirms my own experience. Which seems to indicate that there is a bottom level of something like twenty five to thirty percent before the amount of environmental relief begins to be even slight. That's my reason for saying that I don't think the western relief road gives very much environmental relief to the A sixty one. Would both Mr and Mr like to comment on that. [Mr E Barnett:] Who wants to bat first. Mr. [Mr Mills:] I'm very much aware I've not been saying my name each time I've been speaking but probably too late now. [LAUGHTER] Erm... well the the first point probably to make is that this er the manual that er Mr refers to was only published in June of this year er and clearly in terms of the information that er has been put in the statement, that was based upon the previous way of assessing the impact. Having said that, as Mr 's pointed out, in fact the new manual if anything er emphasizes the benefits more than it did previously because as you said, previously it required a fifty percent reduction in traffic to register a one decibel change in noise levels which was s perceived to be significant. Er it's now in this latest manual that's just been published, is saying twenty five percent and clearly er the road achieves that so there is significant benefit as a result er in in that measure of of noise. And that's I'm sure to be welcomed. Er whether it's er slight moderate or substantial er i is er I say is irrelevant but there certainly is significant benefit as a result of er of thirty percent reduction. Er in terms of pedestrian severance again, the new manual er refers to thirty percent and I would certainly argue that er in the significant areas of pedestrian movement we have er we're getting er reductions of that er magnitude. Er I think er it's easy to talk about taking off two and a half percent here and there, I could probably put forward a number of reasons why it could add on two and a half percent, five percent to the figures and indeed I'd be very disappointed if at the end of the day, we didn't achieve er greater reductions because once you get out long distance through traffic, er whose prime purpose is to move from A to B as quickly as possible, once you do that it gives you the opportunity then of bringing in the sorts of measures to improve pedestrian safety, er to slow traffic down, introduce traffic calming, which you can't do on primary routes. But that this would no longer be a primary route that status would be on the new road. We would therefore be able to bring in other measures which we haven't modelled so far er but that is also the guidance that you should bring in, not only nowadays you should not only look to build a bypass, you should look to complementary measures within the urban area. And certainly the County Council is committed to this transport package approach er and will be coming forward with measures in Harrogate to make sure that the benefits of the bypass are maximized. So as I say I would expect to see these percentages significantly increased erm. I think er that's probably all I want to say. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr do you want to pick up a point? [Mr D Allenby:] Yes chairman I've not not really got an awful lot to add to that. Erm I think the key point there that that Chris brought out was that it does allow the opportunity for further traffic restraint measures in the town centre. And it's a very and these are historic this is a h historic town centre. Very important to get the through traffic e and the traffic that's no right to be in the town centre, out of the town centre so that you can in incorporate these new measures. [Mr G Arrowsmith:] Just George, just to respond to the two points that have just been made. I haven't made any adjustments to the figures to to get them lower. The change from thirty one percent to twenty seven percent was just a calculation by using all the information not taking specific points on the network. In fact there are changes considerably lower than that o actually in the town centre. In front of me I can see one link in the town centre where the improvement would only be twenty one percent. The second point that I want to make is I'm not denying that the western relief road would bring some improvement and if the western relief road did not damage did not cause serious environmental damage, I would not be arguing against it. I am arguing against it because on the one hand it brings about environmental improvements in the town centre which according to the latest published government information which as as Mr has has himself said,i is stricter th th than we had published previously. Even according to that it only brings about a slight improvement and yet, the new road causes b in in the words of the County Planning Officer, erm the Borough Council's own officers and the County Council's own environmental consultants, causes severe environmental damage. That's the equation that I'm setting I'm setting up. Severe damage from the new road against slight benefits on the existing road. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr, a point which you've made consistently persistently for the last hour. Mr are these two concluding point because I I would like to [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Er they they are they are er er with our conclusions at the end. Erm the North Yorkshire County Council have made great play and we didn't know it was coming in until we got that information, upon the public consultation document. In the consultation document that was first put out to the public in nineteen ninety one, the public was only offered the yellow route. Simple statement of fact, it's there in document as part of your evidence. It wasn't a question of alternative routes, the grey routes were wiped out said were not going to be considered. it is the yellow route and it is to provide a bypass. The second document that came out as a consultation document, simply led with the evidence that you've pe that you achieve by simply suggesting to people there was only a yellow route. For maybe just a momentary at this moment Mr chairman at this time of day, it's rather like the carpet salesman saying to the lady, which one do you want, red, blue or green, not whether you want one or not. And I'm actually paraphrasing the chief executive of of North Yorkshire County Council there, Mr when on the two tier government. And I have to say that cos Mr can't answer that, that is how the western community of Harrogate felt when they saw the way that this public consultation document was led. And I don't want to wish to ask for them to answer that, that's just the view of the whole of our community, and it did prompt us and it's not on your records, over a thousand signatures were obtained proposing in fact what I'm about to conclude with. on the en on the er environmental issue and the er assessments that have been made, we didn't raise the question of development, H B C did. They say it's not development led but if I can actually quote from all of these documents very very quickly. Five one, new roads will remove constraints of poor excess on sites which may otherwise be acceptable in planning terms. Five summary, relieve the pressure for development on more environmentally sensitive sites elsewhere. I would actually ask the Harrogate Borough Council, where are these more environmentally sensitive sites in Harrogate than the Valley, the Beck and the Crag? Two two three, the new highway schemes may provide major development opportunities and for the two thousand and six town plan, the county will allocate sites which could benefit from new road access. Therefore what we are recognizing is that there would be developments on these roads Mr chairman, I would ask in fact in their assessments of their traffic flows and the environmental impact, has any of that element been taken into account? Besides just the impact environmentally of the road, and besides the traffic flows you could get, the generation of traffic that these roads in fact will bring with them development. Er I'll do my conclusion at the en very end if want in my summation. [Mr E Barnett:] I think we've got there unless Mr wants to make a response. [Mr D Allenby:] Erm yes I will I will chairman just very briefly. Erm it has to be said that er new roads do o open up opportunities for development. We erm we've been discussing all last week the amount of housing that has to be accommodated in Harrogate District and in North Yorkshire as as a whole. We will have to find erm sites for that new housing. If a new road is propo proposed we have to look at the opportunities provided by that ro road. What we're not saying is that the the development er the road is development led. Or the need for the road is development led. We're simply saying is the new road does open up op opportunities within the urban area e even, for the release of sites which are constrained by poor access and via the amount of traffic passing along existing road corridors. Er there are two examples along the western route corridor of sites which I do refer to in in the statement, Hildebrand Barracks at, an army camp which er is expected to be vacated in the near future, and Queen Ethelbergers which has been vacant now for for almost two years. Erm finding new uses for those built areas is very difficult because of the constraints of access. The western route if provided along that corridor would help in that situation and would mean that er other sites which are perhaps open countryside, don't have to be developed. Thank you chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr would you like to sum up. [Mr W Terry Byrne:] Yes Mr. Er Terry, Residents' Association. We believe from the evidence that's been presented today that in fact the justification of a western relief road as a means of a primary route north along the A sixty one to the A one has not been made. We are doubtful that the benefits of the inner distribution onto other roads and into particular the B six one six two which is the only access onto the western relief road as currently proposed between the A fifty nine and sixty one would generate further problems, onto a road which is only a two lane B road compared to an A l A road Sorry and A three lane road, that the environmental damage far outweighs in fact the so called benefits that are being claimed which nobody's disputed is only a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds. For the devastation of the western side of the town. So it our recommendation that it is premature at this pro frozen moment of time particularly with the additional thoughts of the inner northern relief road to be considering in a structure plan a western relief road. And at at at this point in time we do not t think it's appropriate that be be added in this amendment to the structure plan Mr chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr. Mr are you anything you feel applies to respond on or you feel you've stated your case? [Mr Mills:] I think er I think the the points er in terms of the of the initial statement and summary of the position covers er most of the points that have been made. And perhaps er what has come out that perhaps is not reflected either in my initial statement or in the summary is this point about maximizing the benefits of the relief roads er through complementary measures within the urban area. Clearly that is very important and will be pursued. Er on the envi environmental aspect, I think it's worth emphasizing because clearly this is the major concern of both Scotton and er the Residents' Association and er that the County Council has and perhaps to some extent I think it's certainly the public consultations or the exercises I've been involved in at this stage in a major scheme has done far more work in trying to assess those effects than is normally the case at this stage in a ma major highway scheme. Er the County Council has employed specialist consultants in terms of landscape impact, in terms of ecological effects, in terms of archaeology, in terms of agriculture. All that work has been done in addition to the the traffic studies. Er we haven't spent a lot of time talking about some of those things today but it's all been done. That information was made available in summary form to the public in the leaflets, in more detail at the exhibitions. Er many members of the public took advantage of the offer of the more detailed appraisal er and indeed came in to look at the detailed consultants reports. They were all made available to members er of both the County Council and the Borough Council when they were making their decisions and they were fully aware of the impact these proposals would have. That's not to lessen the fact that there will be an impact, clearly there will be. It's this difficult balancing exercise between those effects and the benefits of the road. Er simply in terms of the impact, there is a lot more work to be done on that and we would do that in t in developing the scheme and bringing it forward to the next stage, to mitigate the adverse effects er that come about as a result of er construction of new roads. Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Can I remind you on once more about the please. [Mr Mills:] Can I just one one final point there is e I did notice in my proof there was in in in typing there was one line I don't know if you noticed there was one line that was missed off the bottom of one of the pages, and if I can er either give that to you. [Mr E Barnett:] Can you give it to the panel secretary? [Mr Mills:] Yes I will do yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Can I say from the panel's point of view, thank you very much gentlemen for your contribution this afternoon. And Mr for his attendance. And contributions. Thank you. [Mr Mills:] Thank you Mr. [tape change]

[speaker001:] We certainly will be today. Erm I it looks as though everybody's gone anonymous on me today. Could you please turn your name boards round so we can see who's who. Thank you very much. Er the other rule with well method of procedure, most of you know about it, but if you want to attract my attention during the course of the discussion simply put your name board up on end and we can see who wants to speak. We also yes I must remind you that we have read the papers so I don't necessarily want to go through it word by word line by line er but obviously when you want to make a point you will refer back to those papers but don't you must assume that we have read them and that everybody else has read them. Er today we're going to look at this Policy E two, the op open countryside, and there are presented to you for the discussion three matters. And the first one is, Is the policy required and if so does it give sufficient guidance. The next matter is, Is the proposed policy too restrictive and does it adequately reflect national policy guidance on the need to rural enterprise and diver diversification of the rural economy. Now obviously B does follow quite properly from A but let's start off with Mr Williamson picking up the question, Is the policy required and if so does it give everybody sufficient guidance. Mr Williams. [speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman, much has been said during the course of this examination about the quality of the environment in North Yorkshire. Particular emphasis has been placed on the fact that the county embraces the best part of two national parks as well as two and a half areas of outstanding natural beauty and a heritage coast. Collectively these areas of national designation cover about forty five percent of the three thousand two hundred square miles which constitute the county of North Yorkshire. As befits their status they are the subject constructed on Policy E one which affords high priority to conservation landscapes and general amenity. The majority of the remaining seventeen hundred square miles or so of the county also comprises open countryside. Most of it's vastly populated and punctuated by well defined compact small market towns and villages. The majority of this remaining countryside is also of a high quality deserving in the County Council's view protection in the words of P P G seven for the sake of its beauty, the diversity of its landscapes, the wealth of its natural resources and its ecological, agricultural and vacational value. There is however no existing policy, control development and change across this wide countryside. This represents in our view a major gap in the strategic policy framework for such an extensive rural county and one which is becoming increasingly in need of filling. Chairman, back in nineteen eighty when the County Council's original structure plan submission was examined, the panel who subsequently the Secretary of State rejected the proposal for a policy to control development in the open countryside outside the nationally designated areas, primarily to suggest that on the grounds that the agricultural policy in the plan were equally capable of achieving the objectives sort by the proposed open countryside policy. Chairman, I think in nineteen eighty this was quite possibly true. Thirteen years on er the situation has changed and changed quite dramatically. It is no longer Government policy to retain as much agricultural land in productive use as then. At the same time new places have been exerted on the countryside almost daily. Although they were at the agricultural policies undoubtedly continue to be relevant, still have a significant part to play in many current situations. It is undoubtedly true their role and application in the nineteen nineties is significantly different from that envisaged back in nineteen eighty. County Council believes therefore that is is now appropriate to clarify the strength of the general thrust of strategic policy as regards the development of the open countryside by introducing its new Policy E two. County Council's encouraged by the fact that the introduction Policy E two is supported by all the North Yorkshire Districts and they are after all at the sharp end of implementing structure policy. It's largely on the alerting of the County Council's decided to incorporate such a policy in this alteration. County Council's similarly encouraged by the widest support inclusion of the policy has elicited, as I say at least in principle Chairman, and most of the respondents to alteration number three. I think in this context there are very few people who have actually said it is not relevant or appropriate to introduce introduce the policy at this stage. Chairman, I think I should say in proposing the proposed Policy E two it should be stressed the County Council's not seeking to introduce a policy of restraint and restriction on the development which attempts to mirror that already applying within any of the nationally designated areas. The County Council fully recognizes that this would be appropriate, inappropriate sorry, and unacceptably constraining. Nevertheless it does believe it is appropriate that the strategic thrust of the policy should be based on the premise that development proposals likely to be consid considered acceptable in the open countryside will in a sense represent the exception rather than the rule. And the early reading of P P G seven it seems to me it's apparent that the principle messages are that the development in open countryside should be strictly controlled, and I would underline that point strictly controlled, and that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and non-renewable and natural resources should be afforded protection. It is I would suggest similarly evident that P P G seven expects most new development in rural areas to be directed to rural villages and small country towns and that it should be sensitively related to existing settlement patterns under the historic wildlife and landscape resources of the area. County Council believes that this advice and guidance is synonymous with the view that is taken that development of the open countryside will in fact represent the exception rather than the rule and that new development would not normally be permitted. The policy as now presented to the panel for consideration in the County Council's view therefore represents and provides a clear strategic statement covering the processes involved in changing the wide open countryside and beyond rural settlements and such areas identified for development purposes within those settlements could maybe identified in the appropriate drawn up plans. As such it is considered to pro provide an appropriate level at the strategic policy guidance within which District Councils can development their local planned policies, taking into account local circumstances and conditions and indeed the appropriate balance to be struck between the rural economy and protection of the environment. This view is supported by the District Councils who are united in their opposition for a policy incorporating more detailed guidance, particularly if it is sort to identify specific categories of exceptions likely to be considered to represent appropriate development in the countryside. Thank you Chairman. [speaker001:] Thank you. Anyone want to pick up the ball and run with it and would question whether it is considered necessary and does it give you sufficient guidance at strategic level? Mr Donson. [speaker003:] Thank you Chairman. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I would very much like to pick up the ball and run with it as to whether this policy is necessary or not. Erm we've heard from Mr Williamson that it fills a strategic gap and guidance and that pressures on the countryside are exerted daily and curiously enough it wasn't a policy of restraint or restriction. I can't agree with any of those things. The reason for bringing forward this policy was because it, as Mr Williamson said, is the District Councils felt there was a need to fill a strategic er a gap in strategic guidance. And not until this morning when erm Richmondshire cir circulated their erm evidence have I seen any example of er be given a pressure which er which is being exerted. You will remember erm er er as Mr Williamson outlined the counties covered by wholesalers and designations already protecting er the countryside. And you will recall that in relation to Policy H one that I I I submitted to table which is called from Selby District Council showing the extent of that coverage both not only national designation but also of local designation. And that showed that sixty eight percent of the county is actually covered by one form of national or local environmental restraint. But that did not include agricultural land grades one two or three A which are also covered by another policy, Policy A three. If you also take that away and you also take away land which is already covered by settlement, I would suggest that you're left with very little and so what's the strategic gap? I think I would submit that there isn't really a strategic gap. There may have been one or two planning applications which have been a little bit difficult to deal with but that's life surely. We have to make decisions, that's what planning is about coming to decisions. And that in fact what we already have in this county is a balance of policies which substantially favour environmental protection and this is just a means of adding another one which is another hurdle for any department to erm to to actually er meet. If there is if there are no er examples of er er dev individual examples of development pressure, as I say we have one apparently presented to us this morning I think one over a period er since nineteen eighty seven, it's not a basis for a policy. And you you will know as well in relation to Policy H one [clears throat] that it was said that if fact development housing development in particular 's kept pace more or less with the er the policy of er the the policy set out in the structure plan. The exception to that of course is York but York wouldn't be affected by this open countryside policy er at all.... What I would see this policy as doing would be simply to bring an element of restraint er which er would be formulated in way in which it would within the local plans so that tight boundaries would be drawn around settlements, the rest of the land would be designated as under this policy as E two land and the debate as to whether the extent of that land was necessary or not would be negated because it would be subsumed as being there simply er meeting the strategic policy. If we contrast that er view of what will happen in future district plans with what has actually happened under the Hambleton District plan which I know you have a copy of. There in the absence of an E two policy the council has undertaken a full landscape assessment of its area outside the settlement. Now it may well be that er the Federation of Hambleton disagree about what the importance of of that landscape assessment is precisely. But nevertheless it's been done and the debate can be held under the auspices of the District Plan. We aren't prevented from having the debate and indeed in having that debate Hambleton will have to prove they've made drawn the right boundaries. We wouldn't they wouldn't be have to deal with that it was simply having a poli a blanket policy.... There also seems to me to be some confusion of emphasis which which adds to my concern that in fact the Government policy talks about strict control of development away, and I emphasize the word away, from settlements. Yet this particular policy is intended and it says so in the explanatory memorandum, that it's to be once established as open count open countryside would be out immediately outside the settlements. We will fight all land which is not er part of the settlement. And it seems to me there is a grave danger that once established as open countryside and in an area in need of protection, it will be heavens only job to move that in future years. And in fact the intention would be in effect that this will in fact like greenbelt and I would point to the Harrogate District er Harrogate Rural Area Study and er that's been submitted by Harrogate Council as an example of er showing that that is the precise intention of this sort of policy. Because even in the absence of strategic guidance in the past it hasn't stopped local authorities actually bringing forward policies in their local plans. The difference is, of course, that those policies have got to be tested if each individual case appropriateness and er I I do feel that if we have a blanket policy then we won't be able to test it. You then have to ask yourself the question, If there isn't any Government, if there isn't any er local development pressure of any substance which has brought about the need for this policy, has there been some sort of quantum change in Government policy which has necessitated that we give emphasis to this particular issue. Well my view of that is that yes we do have new P P G seven which we didn't have at the time of the last structure plan alteration. But by and large that's just a further clarification of some aspects and it's not a quantum change of policy, all it did is collect together wholesalers of circulars etcetera er and and present them in a in a slightly er more concise way. But there's no, it seems to me there's no fundamental change in Government policy and if you are only bringing forward er a change in policy er to this alteration on the basis that er there was some extra P P G guidance we wouldn't just be dealing with countryside policy here we would be dealing with a policy about telecommunications, wind farms, a whole raft of things er which which we ought to be really dealing with. It may be at the end of end of all this that you you are nevertheless convinced that there ought to be a policy. If that were the case then I would say to you that there must be some exceptions to it and the one exception I am particularly concerned with, and it's up to others to bring forward their particular exceptions, is that of rural affordable housing. I have more than made that point in my submission. But it does seem to be again if we're going back to Government guidance who are justifying extra policies to be brought forward to this alteration, it is a serious omission this alteration that there is no policy which deals with rural affordable housing. Surely that has been one of the major changes of Government policy over the last few years. So I would say to you as part of this opening submission that there is no need for this policy, it is various, there must be a safe plan for rural affordable housing. [speaker001:] Thank you very much Mr Donson. Anyone else want to [speaker004:] Hello. Can I ask Mr Donson for a bit more explanation. You've argued that the very fact of E two will result in tight boundaries around rural settlements. Surely where the boundaries are around rural settlements, whether or not there are boundaries around rural settlements, doesn't flow from E two but flows from decisions that district councils are free to make at the moment. I don't understand your argument that having an E two type policy and without prejudice to what it may say, will make discussions at the local plan level about where boundaries are, more difficult or less difficult. It doesn't seem to me to affect it in any way. [speaker003:] Well I I erm Roy Donson House Builders' Federation, I I think it will because if you take Hambleton as an example and and and and we've seen in more detail stage one er more detailed justification for the boundaries of some particular settlements in the Hambleton District Plan er based on a based on a landscape analysis. Now it seems to me that they are challenging on that basis that they can it can be it can be detailed at the local level that individual boundaries can be challenged. If, however, you simply have a designation which says, This is E two land this is in conformity with the structure plan which, incidentally, hasn't been proved in my view in relation to development pressure nor landscape quality, nevertheless you just say this is E two land, then it seems to me that it's very difficult to argue that it is open countryside. It may well be open countryside, we can all agree that it's it's it's beyond this it's currently beyond the settlement. But is the boundary drawn in the right place or not. Could well be negated because all we're saying is that the counter argument to it is we're simply conforming with the structure plan. [speaker004:] I'm still not sure I understand why... the effect of the E two words is to make... [speaker003:] Because it applies [speaker004:] the situation's significantly different bearing in mind the primary requirement on the planning system by virtue of P P G one to provide ade adequately for development. [speaker003:] That erm well two things. One one one first of all the policy is meant to apply to all land which is outside outside of the settlement. That is what it says in in in the in the explanatory memorandum. That's the first point. The second point is that once established that that is open countryside under the terms of this particular policy then it would be very difficult to make a future change to that. Now it may well be that the whole balance of things is that we're generally okay for the moment but it seems to me that as time goes on and there's a need to review plans and there's a need to make further provision that it would be very very difficult indeed against a blanket policy as opposed to individual justifications around ind er individual settlements. [speaker001:] But surely Mr Donson, E two, and I use your phrase, E two land doesn't carry with it anywhere near the same degree of status er as A O N B or triple S I [speaker003:] I I I I I I [speaker001:] or greenbelt surely? [speaker003:] I I I sir that we we may be able to erm argue that here today it may be very difficult once it's established, especially in the public mind that that that there is that there E two land I fear would be not only interpreted unless there's some justification for me saying this because that's what it says in the in the in the Harrogate Rural Areas Plan. They they something like, and I'll look it up for the precise wording, that this would be acting like greenbelt. I think once that sort of phrase gets within the public domain then it would be very difficult to shift that er in the future. [speaker001:] Yes I mean that may be a public perception. I suppose it would depend very much on how it was presented. Er now let me ask the Planners whether they see that as the way in which they would be trying to operate this policy through the local plan. Mr Jewitt. [speaker005:] Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Er well Chairman I don't think that erm E two erm as proposed will weaken people's ability to challenge our District Local Plan policies. Our District Local Plan policies will be our interpretation of the application of E two erm in the light of er national planning policy guidance. Erm the development limits the landscape policies that have been referred to are our response to a number of considerations, erm protection of the open countryside is just one of those. Now that's our inter purely our interpretation of the policy and clearly that would be open to challenge in the District Local Plan Enquiry. I don't really see how erm it is going to in any way weaken people's ability to make an effective er objection. [speaker001:] Mr Williamson. [speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. Er Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. Really just a point of clarification on one popular matters that erm Mr Thomson raised about er limits of settlement. I think it seems to me he's missed er the point in the explanatory memorandum that he made. The relevant statement reads, The policy will fight all land outside existing rural areas other than when is specifically indicated in the structure planning in local plan. So it takes into account er what what the development plan should be doing which is to make adequate reasonable allocation in the context of the the the broad strategy of the structure plan erm and I don't see any reason to believe that once that has been done erm the remaining plan outside those areas shouldn't be treated as open countryside. [speaker001:] Professor Markham. [speaker006:] Er David Lock sir. Erm I should like to reinforce and supplement what er Mr Donson has said er from the house building point of view perhaps with a broader perspective of er development than just the house building industry. I notice from the erm County Council's own er document for today that they remind us that the Panel in looking at the present structure plan in nineteen eighty erm considered whether the county's wish at that time to have this broad erm kind of sweeping up policy was appropriate. He reminds us of this erm he says that, At that time in nineteen eighty the Panel felt that they weren't convinced it was necessary to include such a sweeping up policy since there's a whole battery of other policies in the plan which were designed to protect erm the special parts of the countryside in the county. Now what we're hearing today in in the document that's been put in by the County is that their assertion is that since nineteen eighty the changing erm common agriculture policy has meant that more farm land in the county is coming into play for development than was the case in nineteen eighty erm not least of all through set aside and general policies of diversification. And that the county feels that there is a case for this sweeping up policy now in nineteen ninety three whereas in nineteen eighty the Panel had felt it to be inappropriate. So the main reason, that's just sorry it's a long way of getting to it sir but, the main change in circumstance that the county is putting forward since nineteen eighty compared with today is that agricultural policy means that more farmland is being diversified and they feel the need at county level to have a sweep-up policy to control that process. The other reason, there is only two reasons, the other reason the county gives for wanting this Policy E two now in nineteen ninety three erm is that the districts have all asked for it. A popular expression of demand from the district councils. Now I think what erm and my feelings on this er are very much er similar to Mr Donson's and I'm grateful for the calculation he has done for us all. But this particular county is extremely well covered by special forms of countryside protection both through national park, heritage coast, A O N B and as was mentioned in a rather a throwaway fashion but in terms of grade one, two and three A O N agricultural land. There really isn't much of the county that isn't covered already by those kinds of protections. And it seems to me perfectly understandable that the local planning authorities in the county would like to take one hundred percent control of the unbuilt upon part of the county. But the fact of the matter is that that isn't Government policy. It is not Government policy that all land everywhere should be subject to special constraint. Explicitly Government policy to the opposite. So it seemed to me, sir, that we need a very very special justification for this all embracing E two policy which brings me to the other thing to say about it as a general principle. Erm the questions you were asking just now were testing a possible implication that this policy is so weak in general, no no not weak, so general in its application that it really doesn't get in the way, it's testing that kind of hypothesis, and erm all I can say is from experience in North Yorkshire that, even without this policy since nineteen eighty, the county has been using its assertion of its need to protect the countryside generally as its policy position to stop things happening outside towns and villages and that with this policy in place we could see that a general position of the county maintained and then reinforced. And somebody has to say that under Section fifty four A if this kind of policy exists in the county structure plan it will be extremely difficult for any proposer erm of development outside built-up areas, existing built-up areas, to proceed. This is a genuine obstruction in this Policy E two of the most serious kind. And so in conclusion I looking at it and the exhibitions we've made to you and to the county in the course of the consultation draft is that this county does not need this policy and that it is in fact an insidious and repressive kind of policy that it contrary to national planning guidance and should not be included in the alterations. [speaker004:] Can I pick up on that last point Professor Lock and throw out a question generally in response to what you and Mr Donson have said.... What would be the effect on a Policy E two which said development in the a, applications for development in the open countryside would be determined in accordance with national policy set out in P P G seven. No not the last bit because there's there's bits of Government policy related to the countryside that isn't in P P G seven it's normally under P P Gs. I throw that into the arena on the basis that... P P G seven exists it is not... a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A unless it is made a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A. Nevertheless it is a material consideration in all applications be before the local authority or before the Secretary of State. [speaker006:] If I could just say something, I know Mr I know you will sir, but erm just. That would work for those kinds of developments which P P G seven is addressing. Erm what would present problems in real life I think would be developments of a larger kind than that in which a new settlement er might be one strategic site if we had such a policy might be another. Erm and er P P G seven doesn't really give us a way through on that. [speaker004:] I I was leaving the the sort of exceptions part of it and the game at the moment and asking, because I appreciate that you and Mr Donson for different reasons both want erm a policy that provides for exceptions. Can sticking with the sort of the general non-strategic development in the countryside, would such a policy work, would it be better than E two as proposed, would it be worse, would it be weaker? [speaker006:] Er I will I will hand over but let me just say this that my instinct is that it a policy expressed in the way you've you've suggested is just superfluous because all you're doing is describing in in a po in upper case letters, the situation as it is and that that my answer is that it would that there would be no need for such a it would be gratuitously ap it's an unnecessary statement. [speaker004:] Oh my reason for including it was Section fifty four A. [speaker006:] To bring P P G seven and so on into the statutory plan [speaker007:] Yes yes. [speaker006:] and therefore make it enforceable. I I I mean I don't think you need to do that but er that's my response to your question. [speaker003:] Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I I I I think the erm situation that Miss Whittaker describes is the situation that we have today. What what what we have is a serious of local plans which include policies for protecting land and they are working perfectly well in achieving that objective. And the other material consideration or one of the other material considerations that comes into play for to determine particular applications is indeed Government guidance. So that's exactly the position that we have and there had been no proof as far as I can see to to demonstrate that in fact the present situation is not working. Patently the present situation is working and therefore that's part of it and what I would say is that that this additional policy if it isn't necessary because there there isn't any development pressure, then what is its purpose. I would submit its purpose is another piece of anti-development er strategy for for this particular county. I think there is there there is there is an issue that it isn't as simple as just where are we today and and and where are the boundaries of the settlement as Mr Williamson said. We've got to consider the situation of some form of flexibility and it presupposes that if you have a policy in which the settlements are drawn and I suppose I I think they will be tightly drawn, development yes is allocated in accordance with the structure plan. But that and then the rest of the land is is open countryside E two land. It presupposes that that is right that those boundaries have been rightly drawn essentially for all time. Or or certainly in the long term. And erm I think that that is a very dangerous situation to get ourselves in even in a county where the emphasis is on to protecting er er on environmental protection. I still feel it is a dangerous proposition to be in and we could end up in a situation where development comes to a full stop. [speaker001:] Mr Heselton and then Mr Collier. [speaker008:] Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. Erm I think my answer to the to the questions being thrown out by by the Senior Inspector is is that surely Government policy is to protect the countryside for its own sake, and and why is it therefore wrong for a county with erm areas of acknowledged environmental importance to try and give expression to that in in its structure plan. Erm the the point I really wanted to make erm is response to to a comment from Mr Donson and and also Profe Professor Lock erm it it goes back to erm to my constraints map of the county, the one I submitted er as an appendix to my erm submissionary inspector of the H one issue, erm which rather unfortunately throughout the course of the examination has been er exploited by a number of other parties constr for their own purpose. But it it now gives me the opportunity to use it er for the purpose in which [speaker007:] Have you charged a fee for that? [speaker008:] Well yeah it has crossed my mind. But basically turning to the Selby situation erm I mean here here we have a district that doesn't have any areas of acknowledged national or landscape im importance at all but as as I mentioned previously that's not to say that there aren't valuable areas of countryside within the district and areas which to use use the words of of P P G advice are valued by the people that live and and work in the district and and also by visitors. Erm at various times throughout the course of the enquiry Selby seems to be gathering a bit of a growing reputation that that the district have let it rip or or the or the collecting point for the remainder of the county. And and I think that's why this particular policy is very important to the Selby district because it allows us to address the balance between meeting what I would call the justifiable development but also the equally important environmental consideration. [speaker001:] Thank you. Mr Collier. [speaker009:] David Collier National Farmers' Union. It seems to to me that erm Policy E two does not add erm much if anything to to Government policy which after all is fairly comprehensive in its dealings with development in the countryside. Not only in P P G seven but as has been pointed out in other erm guidance notes such as four erm and three. Perhaps the er chief of a Policy E two in an acceptable form is that it would give a clear signal to the district that it would not be appropriate to have a policy on rural diversification or in in development in the countryside more generally, which is stricter than Government guidance. And and so we certainly don't have strong views either way as to the need for the policy in principle but I can certainly see an advantage in having a policy in the right terms. [speaker007:] It seems to me that E two as it is currently drafted is a great deal less comprehensive than P P G seven and a great deal more restrictive, possibly as a consequence of being less comprehensive. And I I thought I'd put to Mr Donson and Mr Loc Professor Lock to the district councils. [speaker001:] Mr Earle. [speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. Erm first of all if I may just er point out that the example I put with my paper that I have submitted today, and I thank you for the er indulgence in allowing me to produce it so late, was simply that there was one particular appeal of decision where an inspector remarked particularly on the lack of a local or a development plan policy relating to generally relating to the countryside. In other words it wasn't the one and only example where we felt this gap but it's simple one where remarked on it. If I may just refer you sir to er my appendix which it actually the last page of your papers erm er if you see on it is actually page numbered thirty one and it's paragraph thirteen thirty six at the very back of the papers. Erm and the inspector simply pointed there that the county er the council has quoted no approved policies to protect the countryside for its own sake. Well the plain fact of the matter was Chairman there were there were none to quote to him and erm we see the the structure plan Policy E two er as fulfilling a bridging role between national policy and the more specific guidance which would necessarily be contained in local plans. The county at first stage did try of course to produce some exceptions and and I think all the districts found ones they liked and ones they didn't like and I think quite reasonably the county said well er possibly the role of E two is simply to produce this broad policy goal and er this will er and as Richmondshire see it it'll be er for us to refine it as we see fit at district level. And I have pointed out in my papers that you must bear in mind perhaps that er quite a number of Rich er quite a number of the districts in North Yorkshire are of county scale in their sheer size and that therefore it is not inappropriate that at that level that the policies would be refined. [speaker001:] Mr Sedgewick. [speaker007:] Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. We've approached this from a a slightly different angle and recognized that local planning experience within the county now and in the forthcoming district plans shows that there are going to be policies that restrict development in the open country. Therefore my clients would much rather deal with this at a strategic level than in individual district plans. But to do that we need to be sure that the policy is appropriate, does reflect national policy. As it stands the districts seem to be wanting their cake and eat it in that they would like er a policy restricting development in the open countryside but they don't want it to come with baggage that is specific which says what the exceptions should be. I don't think that that is the right way forward. If we are going to have Policy E two then it does need to be very clear as to the direction that the the strategic direction that the districts need to take with regard open land and that is the the subject of the the other questions that you've put before us. [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker004:] Can I [speaker001:] Sorry. [speaker004:] come back to Mr Searle [speaker001:] Mr Earle. [speaker004:] Earle I beg your pardon, and I hesitate to raise any appeal decision. However, if I can use this example. It doesn't seem to me from what I read of page thirty one of that inspector's report that he was in any different position by the absence of the Policy E two than he would be if he'd got it. [speaker010:] Yes I it's a it's I've contemplated because at the end of the day any appeal decision was er one in favour of the council's position. Erm and I have to er pick up the point made opposite that the protection has been pretty good over the last few years without the policy. That it is simply being this is why we feel that the role of the structure policies is to provide that er into local plan policies. [speaker004:] But there is nothing anywhere in the P P G twelve in particular which says that before a district can have policy in their local plan there must be a lead policy in the structure plan. Is there? [speaker010:] No. [speaker004:] And within a couple of years districts will have district wide local plan coverage we hope. [speaker010:] The er the county council came forward with these policies as a result of comments that er districts made a number of years ago and perhaps er over a passage of time erm makes at least validity your point but I I remain of the the view that there is in the there is nothing in the county structure plan that sets out the basic objective of protecting the countryside and still feel that's a valid objective within the structure plan erm within the structure plan er context. [speaker004:] I notice Mr Allenby is nodding his head. [speaker001:] Yes Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm really just to reinforce that point. Erm Mr Donson was quite right that in the absence of erm structure plan policies er the districts have moved forward and prepared their own countryside protection policies er and these have been effective to a a greater or lesser degree. However I think in my view anyway this doesn't negate the point that the protection of the countryside is a strategic issue and should properly be covered in the structure plan. Erm there is then a case for that policy to be covered in the structure plan and of course in local plans and at the local plan stage there is an opportunity for councils to er interpret the structure plan policy to add er exceptions if they so wish and for those to be tested at a local plan enquiry. Mr Donson. [speaker003:] Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. We've erm we've had quotes from from from Government policies from P P G seven's been mentioned twice quoting paragraph two point one protection er that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and I know that there is a tendency to quote Government policy to back your own case. But erm it [LAUGHTER] it it would seem to me that erm that the the basis of Government policy in writing to the countryside is para one ten of P P G seven, that talks about a balance essentially. And I also rely on my evidence of of quoting another custodian of Government policy namely the Prime Minister and its current Prime Minister erm who makes the point that proposals for development must not be turned down simply because it is the safest course. But also more importantly within that says that these, The siting of development is essentially something to be decided locally. And I think that that is very important. And that seems to me to go against having a strategic policy but what we're talking about is the interface at a local level between development and and protecting the countryside and that's quite rightly where the decisions should be made. It is not appropriate that we have a blanket policy at the strategic level and the need for this particular policy it would seem to me is unproven. [speaker004:] Can I, Mr Donson and I are in danger of getting into a game of seeing who can next pick the most relevant bit out of a P P G. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker004:] Nevertheless I shall continue. [speaker001:] P P G twelve? [speaker004:] P P G twelve paragraph five fifty three, reactions from the county and district councils please as to how Policy E two satisfies that advice and what follows in that part of the P P G.... [speaker007:] [whispering] [] [speaker001:] Do you want do you want to come back Mr Williams do you want to pick up this point or something else? [speaker002:] Well it it perhaps picks up this point [speaker001:] While your colleagues are all perusing P P G twelve. [speaker002:] It is was really erm the question of how many other P P Gs could be taken as read er if we decide that P P G seven could just be left on its own and not included in the structure plan. Er it seems to me that erm there are probably quite a few policies in the structure plan that could be omitted if we just took the all the P P Gs as read. Erm as far as I'm concerned Mr Donson's point that there are significant areas of the county which are covered by other policies, national parks, heritage coast, high quality agricultural land, Erm that may be true but there are significant areas which are not covered by those policies and it seems to me that if erm the county structure plan is going to provide a strategy then it should be relatively comprehensive. And for that reason alone I would say that erm Policy E two is necessary and should be included. Thank you. [speaker001:] Mr Heselton. [speaker008:] Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Selby District. Er quite fortuitously the question thrown out by the senior inspector anticipates the point that I wanted to make that that surely it's the structure plan that sets the strategic context and it and it's wholly appropriate for local plans to put local interpretation on that. Both in terms of er bringing forward more detailed criteria based policies but also determining specifically the areas to which the policy would apply. So, for example, by designation village envelopes you would give clear guidance as to what constituted countryside and what didn't. And equally by bringing forward other proposals and allocations in the plan you would make it clear where proposals wouldn't work. And then that could even em em embrace a new settlement for example. [speaker001:] Mr Williamson. [speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman having read again the relevant paragraphs P P G twelve to which er the senior inspector referred, I I think it's entirely consistent with that that the county should seek to erm include a policy now in the plan which in effect seeks to to clarify the basic intentions of the structure plan in in regard to the attitude to development in in open countryside. I think obviously I would agree with a lot of what what the districts have said there about the strategic importance of having such a policy. Chairman I think going to the points that Mr Donson made, there have been major changes. I think it's very true to say major changes since nineteen eighty when our plan was approved. Erm we have er increasing pressures it seems to me for er a lot of er non-agricultural developments in in the countryside. Wind farms, M S As, golf courses, associated hotels etcetera, development major recreation policies, and I think it the plan needs to have a a generic policy which addresses the issue of what is likely to be appropriate and acceptable in the countryside as a framework for the development of more detailed policies in in local plans. [speaker001:] Mr Donson. [speaker003:] Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. We've just had a golf course defined as a strategic issue and I think that in a way goes goes goes to the heart of what this is what this is all about. That it is it it doesn't seem to me that we there is a strategic case for this for this policy. That the strategy's working perfectly well. Er and and and because they are struggling to bring forward examples it seems to me that that rather proves the point. No one on this side has suggested that we don't have policies in the structure plan because we've got P P G guidance. That's that's that's not that's not part of part of our er our proposal. The proposal really is what er do you have a policy which is not in line with P P G guidance. And it seems to me that this Policy E two is not in line with with strategic guidance and if you're not if you're having that are there some special circumstances that mean that you have to explain particularly what it is that you you have to do. And that seems to me equally not proven. Er and and on all counts the necessity for bringing forward this policy, given the existing controls that exists, given the controls that will exist in the normal operation of the development plan system, development plan lead system should I say, erm mean that that this policy is totally unnecessary. [speaker001:] Mr Broughton. [speaker002:] Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. In principle is er not opposed to this policy er as we've made clear in our erm responses to the county provided that the wording is in our view right. We still regard the present form of the policy and the explanatory wording as being rather too restrictive. As far as the wording of the actual policy itself is concerned I think we would er certainly prefer er wording on the lines of strict control, in other words quoting er P P G rather than the not normally permitted approach. Er and the accompanying memorandum although it has er gone through several alterations which have improved it in our view is is still over negative we would see. As a whole it doesn't reflect the the encouragement to diversification in P P G seven or the er we think the recent erm quite vigorous policy statements by the Secretary of State about the importance of erm employment creation in rural areas. As far as the exceptions to the policy is concerned, we, again I I wouldn't say we had a strong feeling on this, but on balance I think it that if it is considered that they are needed they would probably be better dealt with in a separate policy. One final point I would make is is that there has been a a little bit of an impression given I think in some comments this morning that we have a a virtual free for all as regards the availability of agricultural land and er the marked change that it has been said to occur since nineteen eighty. And I would just erm remind everyone that er the clear guidance is still there in P P G seven about the considerably weight attached to protection of better quality agricultural land er and that the structure plan policy A three still remains in force, a very clear and strong policy. It's true that the protection has perhaps focused more on the higher quality land but that it is still there under clear policy guidance. [speaker001:] Thank you. Is it is it Mr Feist? Is that how you pronounce it? [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Could you announce announce your [speaker003:] Yes. Mike Michael Feist. [speaker001:] . Sorry? [speaker003:] Michael Feist Countryside Commission York and Humberside Regional Office. I think one of the main reasons why we would support the inclusion of a Policy erm E two in the structure plan is because North Yorkshire is adamantly a very rural area and therefore whatever happened in that rural area must be a strategic issue. And therefore in our view it is appropriate that there should be a structure plan policy that gives broad guidance on how development proposed is affected in that rural areas could apply. Now there are various ways in which a policy could be expressed but the policy that's come up erm from North Yorkshire and the fact that it is deported by the district who would be defining that policy and interpreting it in view of their local circumstances in due course, I think er makes it a powerful factor in arguing why it should be included in the structure plan as to whether such a policy may or may not be necessary. And certainly I can think of very few other structure plans that do not attempt in some way to er give some form of er recognition to the er Government policy as set out in P P G seven. So I think it is a matter of erm importance for the structure plan its inclusion er and I think to put the an answer to one of the questions that was put earlier, if it is not to be left to the district to decide on where development is or is not appropriate in open countryside as defined in the structure plan policy, who it is intended could be making the decision on where development would be appropriate. [speaker001:] Thank you. Mr Saunders. [speaker004:] Les Saunders Department of the Environment. We have made no formal objection to the to to Policy E two in indicating in in many respects the department is er regional office is content for the issues to be erm as to the need for the strategic policy to be debated E I P. However if the the panel was to find in favour of Policy E two er the regional office have reservations regarding the the the tone and tenor of of the wording in the policies. You've had various references to to P P G seven, er I'm sure if we went through all the various proofs of evidence you could reconstruct the entire of P P G seven. Er the difficulties with P P G seven and the countryside are exemplified in paragraph one ten which Mr Donson refers to as his guiding principle, in one single paragraph it manages to include three separate uses of the word countryside, wider countryside, the countryside and open countryside, indicating perhaps some of the difficulties in in erm identifying exactly what area it is that would be covered by a Policy E two. The regional office's particular concerns are that the wording of the policy appears unduly restrictive because within policy P P G within P P G seven itself, no only as is the reference to protecting the countryside, there is also considerable reference to rural diversification and promoting the rural economy where as as erm the county council have said that that P P G refers to most of that development taking place er within are anticipated to take place within the rural villages and and small towns in the countryside. However, the policy itself or the wording of the of of the policy refers to exceptionally in referring to development needing to be in the countryside. It's difficult er it's the regional office's view that that is open to er an over restrictive interpretation. It's clearly a matter of balance between the various elements erm in considering erm proposals for or development in the countryside. Erm and the principle of para one of P P G one para five of P P G one applies that that erm there's no good reason for turning for for refusing applications for development in the countryside. The fact that it's in the countryside shouldn't be a reason in itself for for refusing permission. Therefore, if if the panel were minded to accept the need for Policy E two we'd have we we consider that there needs to be changes to the wording er in in order erm to make it less restrictive. [speaker001:] Thank you for that. [speaker004:] Mr Williamson, can I ask for your confirmation that the reason that the Secretary of State deleted Policy E two in the nineteen eighty structure plan was one of the many reasons under the heading, General, there is no specific reference in the notice of approval to the deletion of this policy and therefore I am assuming it fell for one of the reasons given in paragraphs five point two to five point four five. Is that correct please?... It's not listed there.... But it's nowhere listed in any of the other proposed modifications the Secretary of State or any of the other modifications the Secretary of State made. [speaker002:] Chairman, Ken Williamson er North Yorkshire County Council. Er I thought I had my copy of the certainly the panel's report of nineteen eighty available, it it seems to have disappeared somewhere. My understanding of what what the panel said and what the what the Secretary of State agreed was that neither the panel nor the Secretary of State disagreed with the erm the general sense of the policy but felt that that sense was er embodied and and was able to to be applied through the erm provisions of other policies in the plan at that time. Er E one was mentioned I believe and er but the main emphasis was on the range of agricultural policies A one I think to A four. So it seemed to us that the the general sense and purpose of the policy was was not in a sense disputed but that er in order to avoid a leng what was considered at the time to be perhaps unnecessary detail and going into erm too much detail that er we felt that the agricultural land policies could be left to to perform the sort of main objective that we were seeking through, I think it was E three at the time, was was the proposed policy. [speaker004:] There is nothing in the notice of approval which says that. [speaker002:] No I think erm... para five three I think was probably one of the er unless the panel found that some of policies were unduly restricted and detailed or er which were not a struc structural significance erm yeah probably the first rather than the second reference. [speaker004:] What unduly restricted? [speaker002:] And detailed. [speaker004:] And detailed. [speaker002:] I think because a the sense [speaker004:] Do you have [speaker002:] at the time the erm, as I go back to what I said before about the the the reliance which was then place on on the agricultural policies [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] it seems to me to perform the functions which we were er seeking through through the proposed Policy three. [speaker004:] to me that it would be perverse of us to fall into the trap if we were to do so of endorsing Policy E two and not know that what we were endorsing was in fact what the Secretary of State specifically rejected on the grounds perhaps that it was unduly restricted or detailed or inappropriate for some of those other reasons that are set out in the earlier part of that notice of approval. [speaker007:] Chairman the erm proposals in the what was the submitted plan in reference seventy nine read er Policy three, Subject to the provisions of Policies I four I eight and I nine there will be a general presumption against development in open countryside except for the purposes of agricultural policy and recreation and other uses appropriate to a countryside location. [speaker004:] It does read a bit like a greenbelt policy. [speaker007:] That does in fact [speaker004:] But erm Policy E two was also deleted at the same time. [speaker007:] Yes erm Policy E two was at that time was er relating to programme of tree planting er. [speaker004:] I can guess. [speaker007:] That was obviously er. [speaker004:] Could we trouble you to submit those two policies as they were submitted. [speaker007:] E two and E three yes certainly. [speaker004:] Thank you. [speaker001:] I think that might be a useful point to break for coffee. While and that will give you a chance. Can we resume at twenty past eleven please? [break in recording] Mr Collier?... Can you just hold fire gentlemen a moment? It it seems to me we've spent about an hour and ten minutes or so almost shadow boxing over this particular policy erm and we we keep running into well running both matters together and it seems right and proper that we should do that. There is obviously a divergence of view as to whether there's a need for this policy. Erm there's also a view been expressed that well if you're going to have it it may need some more guidance than is presently written into it. I think that's Mr Sedgewick's view if you have it. Erm the other point of course, this is raised in matter B, as it's written is it considered to be restrictive too restrictive er and third and secondly, is it giving you er guidance which properly reflects national guidance. And Mr Donson er has said that he doesn't think it, it in fact exceeds that. So can sort of we point the discussion in in that direction but before we do Miss Whittaker has a corollary to push with that point. [speaker004:] Thank you Chairman. I think in fact what I would like in particular from the local planning authorities around the table is given Mr Donson's view that E two as drafted is more restrictive than national guidance P P G seven or any other P P G, what is it in North Yorkshire that justifies that departure from national guidance. This in my view is a critical determinate of leaving aside the question of fifty of fif the application of section fifty four A that determines whether the policy is required. [speaker001:] Mr Earle. [speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. We've now moved on in part of question your question five B and erm in my response to that I'm suggesting, and I hope it's not just semantics, picking up the point made just before we broke for coffee, is that there's all sorts of things called the countryside, and this policy is is directed at the open countryside. Now I've heard about you know the question of definition of where the edge of the open countryside is and that's a valid point but if we if we have in mind the open countryside, it seems to me that P P G seven does clearly differentiate between the countryside, the countryside, rural areas and the open countryside where it refers to development being strictly controlled. Now this phrase strictly controlled erm I I I wanted to ask it myself because I you know trying to push it through to what it actually means I think the county council if you like has taken it at what may be face value and said well strictly controlled must mean something. It must mean that there is a er an approach that says that development in the open countryside isn't normally permissible erm unless unless unless. But at least it I don't see that that that E two is inconsistent with the phrase development in the open countryside being strictly controlled. Because then the P P G seven then goes on to make the implicit point about other things that in the countryside such as the small villages and towns and other development opportunities, do occur which provide the rural diversification and employment development that is that is required by the P P G. [speaker001:] Mr Williamson. [speaker002:] Oh I've lost my er [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ah, it's alright. [speaker002:] Your billy do then. Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Er Chairman I I really have to say [LAUGHTER] I don't [] I don't really agree with the assertion that the policy is is essentially more restrictive than than er P P G seven will indicate and I would endorse what er Patrick Earle has said in in that regard. Erm the policy that we were putting forward is is essentially not the one that er was was debated in nineteen eight. It seem to me erm that was er much more intended to be much more restrictive I think than than I would suggest our policy E two is now. Erm it it in a sense er smack of sort of greenbelt policy [LAUGHTER] I think []. I don't think our er proposed policy two does that. In considering or interpreting what strict control means for a start erm do we actually mean, does P P G seven actually mean strictly control? If so what what does that imply? It's not sort of er moderate control or a little bit of control it is strict control. Er and we are talking about open countryside outside erm rural settlements and if you look at the wider countryside and that includes in my judgement er the pattern of settlement which is where most people actually do live in in the countryside. They're they're not living out in the in the sticks the vast majority of people, they actually live in in settlements. The policy er doesn't prevent or doesn't seem to prevent er proper development which is associated with settlements in rural areas. And there are other policies in the structure plan erm you know we shouldn't be looking at this policy just in isolation. We have a whole host of policies, some of which give guidance on erm controls in the open countryside but other ones actually sort of seek a more positive attitude to the problems and the needs of rural diversification. Erm I've mentioned one or two some of the industrial land policies as they er as they still stand policy in in structure plan policy I eight I think and particular policy I six doesn't preclude reasonable and necessary development taking place in rural areas. If one looks through P P G seven erm one sees lots of references to villages and settlements and erm more activity taking place, more people moving into those settlements. When we look at the open countryside it doesn't really to my mind say a great deal about er what is what should be considered acceptable. Erm para one ten I mean it talks about the countryside being able to accommodate many forms of development without detriment. It then goes on to say of course new development in relation should be sensi sensitively related to existing settlement patterns. And there are other references throughout to, what I reply is a clear direction that most developments should be in erm in or closely related to settlements and, of course, that will be a matter addressed through through local plans. The structure plans giving broad guidance [speaker004:] Is it your intention that Policy E two should be interpreted as saying anything different from what is in section two of P P G seven... which covers [speaker002:] Chairman I think we [speaker004:] farm diversification, housing, horses, agricultural development. [speaker002:] I think probably the implications and a lot of people have er picked up on this as the policy has developed, is that er well they're they're concerned that the policy is in fact too flexible now because of how it is being interpreted by other people. Certainly this policy is not intended in any way to erm prevent what P P G seven actually seeks er to promote in in the open countryside, ie outside the areas which we would expect most development to take place in. Certainly the the re-use of er adaptation of existing buildings and would have thought that wouldn't be er er something which the county council would want to prevent. And I don't think the policy er as we proposed it er actually does prevent that. As far as the exceptions Mr Donson is rightly concerned about erm affordable housing. The county council is equally interested and concerned about that. What we have in terms of the advice for the open countryside outside the areas that would normally be looked at and allocated for development is the rural exceptions policy that forms part of P P G three. Erm this policy in my to my mind doesn't actually er exclude those exceptions being made. That would be a in the context of our policy a perfectly acceptable addition to the countryside if you like. Provided that I mean we're not talking about rural exceptions being erm appropriate everywhere and anywhere. Even with the exceptions policy there's still consideration of the the impact of that development and whether it would be acceptable or not and would be treated in in those terms I'm sure by the districts. And I'm sure the districts a lot has been said about er it being the districts' view that well you know we've got this policy so we will we will exercise a high level of restraining to protect the countryside against all comers etcetera etcetera. I don't really think that's a fair reflection of what er what what the district councils as I understand it er would intend to do. [speaker004:] Do I take it your answer to my [LAUGHTER] question is [] no? [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Mr Jewitt and the Professor Lock. [speaker005:] Er Michael Jewitt Hambleton District Council. Er there are three points erm I'd like to make. Erm the first point erm er Mr Donson's Mr Donson's comments. Erm Mr Donson seemed to accept that it was er right for local planning authorities through their district wide open plans to give effect to policies in P P G seven for protecting the countryside for its own sake and he er mentioned landscape policies and then development minutes amongst other things. In the context of those comments my question really, Isn't it right er for local authorities to expect that there is some strategic basis for their policies in the structure plan? Erm and I I can't help wondering, this is perhaps something that Mr Donson may well want to come back to, erm what Mr Donson's position would be at subsequent local plan inquiries where local plans were to contain such policies and there was wasn't to be a strategic basis er for those policies. And I would, and this is my second point, I would point out to erm erm point out to the panel erm that the structure plan at present erm only erm mentions in landscape terms in countryside terms those at statutory designated areas. The rest of the countryside is in effect erm a white area which tends which to me erm in a county context tends to convey the impression that er countryside issues do not matter across the rest of the countryside and that's clearly not the intention of Government advice and it's clearly not the intention behind the statutory of the structure plan which has a strong environmental basis. I think it's right and proper that there is a strategic policy which erm emphasizes protection for the countryside across the whole of the area. The third point er relates to erm is the policy stricter than Government guidance? Erm my view is that it's erm it's very flexible. Erm the margin of flexibility in the policy has yet to be determined because it will be local plans which give effect to erm erm what is erm what development needs to the statement of what development needs to be in the countryside. And that's something that can be debated through local plan inquiries. But there is the mar there is considerable potential for flexibility in the policy and that would be determined my local planning authorities in the light of P P G seven but also in the light of er local circumstances and conditions which is quite right and proper. [speaker001:] Professor Lock. [speaker006:] In the spirit of erm words after coffee sir, er no more shadow boxing some straight shots here. Erm in response to er Miss Whittaker's question we did not hear of anything special in this county that justifies the policy in excess of that exceeds should I say erm national guidance. There was no answer given to that question by anybody. Secondly we have not heard of anything that has changed in this county since nineteen eighty sufficient to warrant or justify in this alteration the addition of a policy the effect of which, one one with a similar effect having been thrown out at that time. And thirdly, there is a Government obstruction they don't like policies which are presumptions against development. Policy E two as proposed is a very common form of phrasing used by planning authorities to circumvent the Government objection to presumption against policies. The policy as proposed says, Development in the open countryside will not normally be permitted. If that is not in practice a policy which is presuming against development in the open countryside I don't know what is. Fourth, we've heard from Mr Williamson his interpretation of what strictly controlled means. The phrase from P P G seven. And what we can see is that Mr Williamson's interpretation of strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. And that is not strict control that is not normally be permitted. Strictly controlled should mean consented after the most careful deliberation and under the most carefully contrived er conditions. North Yorkshire's interpretation I repeat is not strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. And none of this would matter Chairman I don't think er whether E two whether E two was in or out of the structure plan only matters in so far as it bears a part of the making of local plans and the making of planning applications in the county. On the first point about the making of local plans, we're hearing that this policy has the great support, in fact was requested by all the districts in the county. I don't think they've seen it's obverse side. Having E two in place is alright for the local planning authority that wants a local plan that has no development in the countryside in it. You would be drawing sucker from E two in your anti-development policies in your local plan. So that works doesn't it? But supposing a local authority in its local plan wanted to allocate land for development in what is currently open countryside. And as I was saying to Terry Heselton over coffee it could be Selby looking for its two hundred and fifty hectares. You're never going to find those in existing towns and villages. Now supposing a local authority that wants to go into a open countryside in its local plan, E two would stand in the way of that. Such allocation would be contrary to county structure plan Policy E two. Now what we could say is well there would be trust. We have to trust the districts can trust the county the county can trust the districts and that in practice they would make this work at local plan level. For the development industry this that sort of concept of trust isn't safe enough. Section fifty four A makes your local plan structure plans extremely important governors on what happens on the ground and it's for that underlying reason that we find E two unjustified and reasonably repressive and an unreasonable extension of constraint by the county on the freedom of districts in their local plans to choose the geography of their of land allocations. [speaker001:] Mr Earle and then Mr Donson. [speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire District Council. Erm I wonder if can just er continue slightly the debate about the nineteen eighty erm decision to exclude the then Policy E three. Erm I I'm speaking from recollection sir at having looked into this in the context of planning appeal which is now a little while ago, but it did strike me at the time that er there was a definite feeling that the agricultural issue was very strong protection of ag agricultural land throughout was a strong issue up to er the mid nineteen eighties and certainly was up to the time in late seventy nine early nineteen eighty and er therefore there was a feeling that Policy E three simply er was supplementary to those other policies. Also at the time I don't think that in terms of national recognition that the idea of protecting the countryside for its own sake was terribly well developed. Erm to an extent it it was er on the back of protec protection of agricultural land. Now of course during the nineteen eighties the protection of agricultural land for its own sake er lost weight as an issue and the relevant structure plan policies er lost effective weight and were seen to do so but Government policy was quite explicit in the nineteen eighty seven circular, I think it was num number sixteen, was that although agricultural land protection as a farming resource was diminished as an issue, the protection of the countryside for its own sake was not. And, therefore, the sit situation where you find yourself today erm is not the same as it was I think in nineteen eighty. Erm the second point I'd like to make is er we danced round this phrase presumption this morning, I've tried to avoid using it because its its it gets all sorts of er connotations going. I read in the Planning Press that the Newbury District Council managed to browbeat the the Department of Environment into accepting the phrase in their in a local plan, so perhaps presumptions are er the word presumption may or may not be acceptable, but then to extend it into saying well you can't even say, not normally be acceptable, and, not normally be er agreeable, for any sort of policy er means that strategic policies or general policy approaches are simply ruled out ri right across the board. And I'm sure that's not really er acceptable. And finally, if I may, the question you raised earlier and I didn't respond to it as erm I might of done, er the question about whether North Yorkshire is particularly unique. Well plainly erm whatever the er Yorkshire people may think and I was born in Nottinghamshire, erm that it is you know you cannot say it is absolutely unique. But I would like to refer you to the erm notice of approval of the nineteen eighty structure plan where I think erm there there is a phrase to the effect that a policy of broad restraint of development is erm erm er accepted by the was accepted by the then Secretary of State on the basis of the high environmental quality of the county. And that doesn't just refer to the A N Bs and the national parks and the rest of it. Erm important though they are they do not cover the the great majority of the county. The countryside in the county is is undesignated area erm outside the area er the the main designation. But that that phrase in the structure plan approved in nineteen eighty I think does give some weight to to what we're trying to address this morning. [speaker003:] Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I think mo a lot of the points I wanted to make were were covered by Professor Lock but I would just draw the panel's attention to erm the policy that was rejected. And if you take into account that the words, A general presumption against, were common phraseology in policies in the nineteen eighties and we now use the er play against presumption we now have to use the phrase, Will not normally be permitted. I would suggest to you that given that and also the wording in the justification under the old Policy E three, that in fact you could hardly get a tissue paper between this policy that is now before you and the previous policy. They are in fact almost one and the same and they use er one and the same justification. And so it seems to me that what has got to be proven, and I come back to the point, is that something has changed and we haven't heard anything that has changed er in in that time. In fact the justification er for the present policy actually talks about erm the... erm, This policy has generally been successfully implemented across the county. That is concentrating development in partic particular places. So it seems to me that there is nothing new there is no further justification and er on those grounds alone there is no reason to have this policy. [speaker001:] Mr Heselton and Mr Allenby. [speaker008:] Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. Erm it seems it seems to me that wha what's crucial here is the er the spirit behind the policy or or rather the the way in which it's going to be interpreted. And I'd I'd like to turn to the point that erm Professor Lock raised in in terms of the potential clash of interest if if you like between the restraint of of the policy and the er the development proposals as regards Sel Selby district. But nothing has has really changed it's surely implicit that green field sites will have to be released to meet the justifiable needs for development erm that there are ways clearly to minimize the impact by by first redeveloping the existing sites by by releasing sites in less sensitive locations, or developing sites that have minimal impact on on existing settle settlements or patterns of development un unless in exceptional circumstances there is for example the need for a new settlement. But I don't I don't think that the situation's any any different with the proposed policy as regards existing situations. But clearly it it's quite an important point so er so of course I'd be interested to to hear the county council's view on on the point raised. Erm one possible way round the I suppose would be for the county council to amend the explan explanatory memorandum er as a matter of urgency and to bring forward in it er or or at least to acknowledge some of the the matters that have been raised. Such as, for example, erm the affordable housing issue and others. Because clearly in in debating this policy I think a number of the districts have also raised diff different points of interest in terms of what should be recognized as exceptional development and we we went down that that road a couple of years ago and unfortunately the districts came to the conclusion that it wasn't appropriate to try and list the exceptional circumstances. I mean in some respects that's almost an imposs an impossible task it's simple impracticable. As soon as you publish a list for the exceptional circumstances it it will be overtaken by er evolving new forms of development for example. So I don't I don't think anything anything's really changed. There there may well be a way round the problem by amending the explanatory mem memorandum. I I think Selby District Selby District's attitude is is that we're we're perfectly happy. We we think we see eye to eye with the county council on this er provided it is clearly in the the acceptable needs of the district will be met by taking areas of countryside. Erm but I would, as I say, I would like to hear from the county on. [speaker001:] Yes Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. It's a similar point to the one that Terry Heselton has has just made. I think my impression was that er Professor Lock was suggesting that because of Policy E two local planning authorities would have some difficulty in in making allocations to meet the structure plan requirement. Now I don't think that's the case. Erm it's obviously right and proper that a local planning authority if it's releasing green field sites has to justify why those sites should be released. And that's er that's a process that we've just been through with the Harrogate and Knaresborough local plan. We have released sites er in the countryside and we expect the countryside protection policy to apply outside the urban areas and outside of the sites that we've allocated for development. So I I don't think that er would would cause a problem. I'd like to pick up on a point that er that Roy Donson made also right at the outset of of the discussion and that was that there's no evidence that local authorities have have faced pressure for development in the countryside. And that simply isn't the case. You know we've had intense pressure for development in the countryside, certainly in Harrogate district. Erm quite recently, for example, we've had applications for motorway service areas, that's just one example. And that sort of application has to be considered in the context of countryside protection policies. The need for development has to be established and so erm I refute the fact totally that there hasn't been pressure for development in the countryside, that's certainly not the case. Er finally I'd like to reinforce what I said this morning about the strategic importance of a countryside protection policy. It's a matter of fact that the strategy of the county council is to locate development as far as possible in and around the main settlements of the county. The corollary of that is that there shouldn't be development by and large in the countryside. And it's right therefore that a policy should express that explicitly within the structure plan. Mr Sedgewick and then Mr Rudd. [speaker007:] Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. Er my answer to Miss Whittaker's originating question, there has been no argument at all that the area where this policy will operate, which is the open countryside outside of the A O N Bs and national parks, has got any special character that requires a more restrictive approach than national policy. Indeed Mr Mr Williamson has argued that the policy is not more restrictive than national policy, it is clearly not in the county council's mind that a more restrictive approach is needed. Moving moving on from that point, it does seems to me that the policy clearly is more restrictive than P P G seven and arguably in some respects it's more restrictive than greenbelt. At least in the greenbelt development that is appropriate to rural areas would be permitted. In the proposed E two the only development that would be permitted is that which needs to be in the open countryside and that's a much more rigorous test. Within the greenbelt policy there are there is a list of exceptions, a private strategic level. I think it is appropriate if you are to have an E two policy it is appropriate to apply restrictions to to identify the exceptions in that. I I if it can be done in the greenbelt policy it must be done in E two and there can be no argument that it is not too detailed a matter in greenbelt policy but too detailed a matter in E two. Development in the open countryside would not normally be permitted is the way that the the draft policy's guidance. P P G seven para one ten says that new building in the open countryside would be strictly controlled. Development is far more than new building. Mr Williamson has recognized that the adaptation of existing buildings would be allowed. The policy does not say that, the policy put a strict limitation on all forms of development. As I said earlier I do not think that this is an area where the district councils should be given a completely free rein to interpret the matter within their own local plans. There has to be a strategic theme particularly in counties such as North Yorkshire which is predominantly rural, it is a major area of planning control, fully merits strategic control and that strategic control must be applied or if it if it is to be applied in the structure plan if you do agree that there should be a Policy E two, then the control of development must be applied consistently over the districts. I think within the terms of er P P G seven the scope for discretion is limited. The P P G seven has a very clear theme about supporting rural diversification, it is positively worded P P G. I think the restrictive nature of the existing policy and the district's support for that is something that cannot run forward in the structure plan and be consistent with national policy. Thank you. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. [speaker004:] Can I pick up on a point that you've just made Mr Sedgewick and also points made by those on your right about exceptions and presumptions. The only place in which a presumption now appears in national guidance is in P P G two and it'll be it is no secret that erm P P G two will be the subject of a revision. It seems to me however that the terms presumption and exception as national guidance stands at the moment go together in the context of greenbelt. And if we are not looking for something which is as restrictive as greenbelt we ought neither to be expressing in whatever terms a presumption or describing something which is permissible as an exception.... Would the objections of those on my left this end of the table, if the panel were minded to have an E two policy, be overcome by, Development will only be permitted provided that, and they set a criteria? [speaker007:] That's how you finish the sentence [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] Erm yeah I certainly would encourage you down that path Miss Whittaker that if it helps, I don't know whether you've got all the documents, but in our our submissions to the county we suggested that if E two has to survive erm and to add the words, sorry, exactly as you started the sentence but finishing that the exceptions were areas of the sites allocated for development in local plans, it would seem to me to make it absolutely clear what the freedom of local interpretation was in the statutory plan process whilst giving the county the the that it wanted on all the other areas of the county. So erm in response immediate response to your question would be, yes and erm to finish the sentence by referring to areas allocated for development in local plans being okay. [speaker001:] Mr Broughton you wanted to come in earlier yep. [speaker002:] Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. I think it was Mr Heselton raised the er issue earlier of the wording in the explanatory memorandum and er would certainly regard that as being very important in the interpretation of this policy. Er being an agriculturalist rather than a planner I tend to get a bit confused by higher planning semantics of the difference between strict control and presumption against not normally. Er so what I did was something a bit simpler than that I just went through the memorandum and and ticked off what I regarded as restrictive statements as against positive ones. Er and I think I came up with six negatives and and one very feeble positive. And er if I just run through them in in the amended version as I understand it. Paragraph one talks about generally preventing inappropriate development. Paragraph two er development generally should be the exception rather than the rule er building in the open countryside should be strictly controlled. Paragraph three, discourage most forms of development. Paragraph four, a limited number of exceptions and paragraph seven, promotion of a restrictive approach to development. Now to counteract that the only positive one I could find was, while accepting that some development in the open countryside may prove to be necessary. Now it seemed to me that wasn't a very erm reasonable balance and er comparing that with the with the Secretary of State's recent pronouncements where he talks about local planning authorities needing to breathe fresh life into the countryside through their development plans and I want local planning authorities in rural areas to give the need to diversify the rural economy as much priority priority in their thinking as protecting the countryside and the two go hand in hand, and comparing those two er points I I would I would put to North Yorkshire the question, Do they think that the explanatory memorandum is is consistent with that er policy statement from the Secretary of State? [speaker001:] Mr Collier. [speaker009:] David Collier National Farms Union. I share the reservations of erm Mr Broughton about the the tone of the policy erm and as Professor Lock was concerned about the interpretation of strictly controlled, erm we are too. Erm I think if someone er told me I need to control my car whilst driving I would have erm one hand on the steering wheel. If somebody told me to strictly control the car I would put both hands on the steering wheel but not necessarily both feet on the er brake pedal. Erm I certainly er would agree that the starting point would be erm a policy which talks of development being permitted in certain circumstances erm and that the county council wishes to support development which benefits the rural economy erm subject to satisfying certain criteria. And I think that to a large extent erm an alternative wording that that we've been working on would erm meet those concerns. Erm I'll be happy to distribute copies but perhaps I could run through that draft quickly now erm and go through what I would say are the advantages. The alternative we suggest is, Development in the open countryside outside the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, areas that heritage coast and greenbelt, will be strictly controlled. Proposals intended to benefit the rural economy will normally be supported provided that they would not unacceptably detract from the character and appearance and general amenity of the surrounding area. And you will have noted that er much of the wording in that er er latter sentence is taken from the the latest draft of the county council's suggested policy. I would say that the five advantages of our alternative draft is that er it makes it clear that the policy applies to land outside the national parks and so forth but with less repetition than the proposal put forward by the county council. Erm it's secondly more positive in its tone than that erm presently before us. Thirdly that there is no requirement to demonstrate a need to locate development in open countryside erm and we've been reminded this morning that erm one of the erm flaws in the policy put forward back in nineteen seventy nine or eighty erm appears to be that it erm required, certainly in the explanatory memorandum, that the development be erm essential erm to er essentially have a countryside location. Erm the fourth advantage I would say is that it focuses on the balance between the need to promote rural enterprise and the need to protect the countryside. Erm and finally, erm in an effort to make it er acceptable, wherever possible it makes use of the wording already agreed between the county council and interested parties. [speaker001:] This wording is as set out in your appendix two isn't it? [speaker009:] No sir. Erm it's it's erm a further alternative erm in that the attempt has been made to to fall in more closely with the county council's wording erm and yet introduce a more positive tone. [speaker001:] Thank you. We've got we've got a note of it anyway yes. Er... but you'd better let the panel secretary have it. [speaker009:] Certainly. [speaker001:] Mr Clayton. [speaker005:] Er David Clayton English Nature. Erm I'd just like to say we broadly support the E two policy. Erm it is outlined in my statement we do have concerns about the wording er of the first part and the second part of the policy, particularly of the emphasis on amenity and landscape. Now I know in the original draft nature conservation interest was mentioned and er I'd like to hear from North Yorkshire why that factor is taken out of the policy. Er we have suggested an alternative wording erm which is in my statement I won't go on to now. I do feel that the E two policy does reflect P P G seven particularly section one ten and two one where it does mention wild life interest or nature conservation interest. Just picking up on Professor Lock's point earlier on about changes in the nineteen eighties or since the nineteen eighties, erm as in my statement I have suggested that there has been a substantial loss of nature conservation interest and wild life habitats both in this county and throughout the country. And that really is the reason I think for one of the reasons for P P G seven being brought out. Erm that's for that reason I think there is a need to address these sort of er approaches in the the new structure plan policy and er I would dispute very much Professor Lock's statement on them being being no changes since the nineteen eighties. Erm we we have actually got data to prove that actually as well in our phase one surveys er so it's not just as a general statement. Thank you. [speaker001:] Thank you. Mr Donson. [speaker003:] Thank you. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. Erm we were asked by Miss Whittaker to erm respond to her suggestion of an alternative wording. My general position would be that if this policy is to go ahead the more it's worded in the positive rather than the negative the better. And indeed I would remind the panel that we still have in P P G one that the basis of appli applications for development should be allowed having regard to development plan and all material considerations unless proposed development would cause demonstrable harm to interests of acknowledged importance. And it seems to me that in order that that ought to be reflected in any revised wording of the of the policy that the development should be permitted unless it would could demonstrable harm. [speaker001:] Mr Earle. [speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. Erm I'd like to refer to my page three or er section four in my conclusions because I think if I if I heard Professor Lock correctly I think he and I are at one in in a suggestion which is is put to you in in if you like without prejudice to the generality of what I have been saying in support of the council's policy. I I do suggest that if you feel that some easing is required that er you could specifically refer to exceptions that will be set out er in local plans. Now Professor Lock referred to allocations and I think that's probably and the front of his mind er having regard to his own comments, but I I would put it more widely as just erm exceptions which could be either individual allocations or indeed erm policies of of a local plan. Because in Richmondshire for example we erm find it helpful to encourage er barn conversion in circumstances which some of our colleague er councils er do not feel sympathetic. Er but that's er as I see it the role of the local plan in relation to policy such as E two. I would also actually suggest that again if you wanted to ease it a bit I'd pick up a point also made just now er in that P P G refers to building and the E two refers to development. Er development of course being a wider category of activity than building. And so I think you you may feel that there's a bit of room for manoeuvre by bringing out the reference to re-use of existing buildings. Erm I I think in fairness to the county council and and er you know referring to the restrictive nature of their E two memorandum is perhaps a little unfair. I I one's always got to er balance that against for example Policy I eight which refers to small scale industrial development appropriate normally permitted in rural settlements. Now that may not go quite as far as as as would would favour. But it certainly is giving that that degree of balance which er which I think we need to recognize. And finally er as I as I make the point in my in my written statement, there are going to be exceptions, exceptions are part of the the game. Erm and certainly when it comes to local needs housing that is in that is explicitly to be an exception and and erm I I see no particular problem with that. And either section fifty four A applies or it doesn't. I mean it if it applies then the local development plan has to be followed unless material considerations indicate otherwise and among the material considerations explicitly by Government policy is the existence of a local needs housing requirement. And so I see no particular problem about the E two in relation to local needs housing policy. But I mean the the panel is going to have to explore this apparent conflict which I don't think's been properly papered over between what is in paragraph five of P P G one and section fifty four A. Er it's a nice dilemma which we're we're faced the planning profession as a whole is faced with erm and and I think that either it's section fifty four A or it's paragraph five of P P, P P G one. I know that's not the received wisdom of the profession at the moment but that's the way I see it at the moment. [speaker001:] Mr Williamson. [speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. Really just to come back I think there were one or two sort of questions which were posed by various people which er probably we need to to respond to. Erm if I could go back to to what Mr Broughton was saying. Erm I would just like to stress that er again that the structure plan needs to be read as a whole and that there are in fact erm several of the policies in the plan which are certainly encouraging of development, certain forms of development in the countryside. Erm I think that would apply to er some of the existing tourist policies erm certainly and some of the recreation policies. However, I think it it to re-stress again it remains the county council's view in the context of the advice in P P G seven that most most development erm which is going to serve to promote diversification in rural areas should in fact be directed to and located within and adjacent to existing settlements rural settlements which is where, as I said before most people actually do live and it maintains a close relationship between the jobs provided and the residence of people, and that that level of allocation appropriate level of allocation is in fact something for the local er planning authorities to decide through their development plans and to make adequate provision for it. As far as Mr Collier's point er alternative policies concerned, I think listening to it and only half having perhaps digested the full implication, I think really as a matter of principle we're not un unsympathetic to a lot of what what a lot of people are suggesting there. However, I think we do still have some certainly some reservations about erm the policy and how it perhaps fudges some of the loca locational provisions of existing policies. Er and I would highlight again erm Policy I eight which which Mr Earle referred to and also perhaps er Policy I three. On Mr Clayton's point er I think my answer quite simply is that the the the interest of nature conservation are in the county council's view adequately covered by what Policy E six says.... Just one point on perhaps on what Mr Donson was saying about the need for polity statement. I it it still seems to me every time I read the policy that it's a lot more flexible than most people are giving it credit for [LAUGHTER] frankly []. It doesn't er really sort of er er in a sense prevent er or mitigate against a lot of a lot of developments in the countryside. [speaker001:] Is that it? [speaker002:] Provided they need to be there. [speaker001:] Professor Lock. [speaker006:] There there are three of us er, that is Mr Allenby Mr Heselton and me looking for an answer to a question which was about [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker006:] how, so you haven't missed it, E two and how it would be imposed or not imposed on er as a constraint on local plan making. Would it inhibit local authorities in their local plans [speaker002:] Yes thank well yes er thank you very much [LAUGHTER] as you say several pages back []. Well the short answer is it to my mind it doesn't impose any restraint at all.... I mean it's it's their responsibility to er prepare the local plan in the context of what the structure plan strategy as a whole is saying and I think it's it's necessary not to just look at this particular policy in total isolation and assume that that is going to give er what you fear to district councils the ability to to nothing. They they are obliged to take the structure plans strategy and proposals on board and to interpret them in the in the local plan in the round. [speaker004:] But we heard yesterday Mr Williamson about a dispute and I can't remember which district council it was with, it may have been Harrogate, between the county and the district councils on one allocation in the local plan. Does this policy not in effect strengthen the county's arms in, arm in such disputes? [speaker007:] Could I ask Mr Potter, Mr Potter's familiar particularly with this I think it was Richmondshire wasn't it? [speaker004:] I can't remember. [speaker007:] Yes. Yes it was. [speaker006:] David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er yes I raised an example without referring to a specific site and the site is in Richmondshire where the county council has objected to a proposal in erm what is a a local plan in its very formative stages and the proposal conflicts with Policy I five in so far as I five directs development to the main towns and urban areas. And I believe quite properly directs development to those locations. Erm the proposal I'm referring to is in the view of the county council in the open countryside. In so far as this policy is concerned I think is all it does is give greater clarity to what is the strategy of the plan and what is perhaps implicit within those other policies. I don't think it adds any greater restrictions to the existing policies. I think when you look at the the policies collectively and the policies individually the strategy of protecting the open countryside is implicit within those policies. I think that all that this policy does is make that more explicit, it gives it greater clarity. [speaker004:] Doesn't it give you two policies rather than one to batter Mr Earle with, or his colleague? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] In so far as yes two policies would be referred to, yes. [] [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] But the one I think just adds to the other, it just makes it clearer. [speaker004:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Mr Heselton. [speaker008:] Thank you Chairman. Terry Heselton Selby District. I I suppose in the in the light of what's been said I I am slightly uneasy erm particularly going back to the erm I five discussion that that we had yesterday and you you'll be aware that part of our objection to the erm the policy put forward by the county council re related to the specific wording of the of the policy and the the flexibility available to local authorities in in terms of allocating land erm that best serves the needs of potential developers and investors. And I think we did draw attention to the fact that er there may well in some instances be a conflict in terms of what Selby district wants and what current P P G advice suggests. But then when you refer back to the original restraint imposed by the erm existing policy. So yeah I'm sli slightly concerned in that respect. [speaker001:] I thought you might be with that answer yes. Mr Earle. [speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. Erm the the particular case of Richmondshire having been referred to I I felt I ought to point that er we're quite content with the concept of Policy E two as giving the strategic weight to the question of protecting the open countryside and the balance, the very difficult balance, decisions that we and other authorities are going to have to come to in preparing our local plan. We're quite content that we're going to have to er put before the local plan system the the countervailing issues and the weight that's given to the countryside through E two is appropriate in the circumstances. Thank you. [speaker001:] Any comment. Ah Mr Feist. [speaker003:] Thank you Chairman. Michael Feist Countryside Commission. A lot of the dis discussion has clearly been erm trying to resolve some of the ambiguities in P P G seven er and I think perhaps different perception to what sort of countryside in North Yorkshire we are trying to safeguard through through policies. Er on one side there seems to be a feeling that there should be no development and it would compromise the character of open countryside. And on the other there seems to be a view that, well, erm wherever necessary perhaps on a farm or elsewhere that development should be should be permitted. And the consequences of a latter approach could lead to accumulative change in the appearance and nature and character of the countryside so that you get something rather different than most people's perception of a countryside being there for its own sake. And I think that whereas erm we would not necessarily argue with a case for providing criteria at a strategic plan at a structure plan level erm to put some flesh on what is meant and maybe clarify some of the explanatory memorandum in a more positive way, simply should ensure that the policy does not dilute, sorry that whatever changes emerge, does not dilute the mode intention of the policy. And that the district should be given some form of a guide that enables them to be er to apply the particular circumstances to their own district. There may be some districts that have er areas of countryside which are outside the non- designated areas which they regard as particularly important as erm the gentleman from Selby has said, er and the we have suggested that er there might be a criteria in the policy that allows the quality of the countryside affected by development to be a consideration. [tape change] In other words, erm that er special landscape areas countryside is not to change quite radically. If there is a decision at the structure plan level that the countryside should be enabled to change quite radically in North Yorkshire that would be a different matter. But nothing I've heard today Chairman suggests that is the case. [speaker001:] Thank you. Mr Williamson is there anything you want to come back on or you feel you've had enough in terms of summing up on matters A and B? Yes I was proposing we close for lunch. Reconvene at two and then go straight into matter C which is the next section. [speaker002:] Yes thank you er thank you Chairman. Erm I think probably yes the debate has been probably as extensive as it needs to be. Erm I'm not sure whether there's an abiding need to to actually bring it all back together again in in the context of a summary. I think the the county council's made its position fairly clear, hopefully particularly clear. I don't think er my only comment would be that having heard all the comments that have been made and listened to them and tried to dissect them and understand them, I don't think they really alter er fundamentally our position. [speaker001:] Thank you. So we'll reconvene at two. Were you dying to say something Mr Rudd? [speaker008:] Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. About time I put an opinion I think. Erm just three perspectives from a district level on on matters that have been raised. First of all erm Ryedale District isn't saying that the policy is warranted because North Yorkshire is in any unusual regardless of the quality of the countryside here, but that this is a reasonable reflection of national policy on development in the open countryside. Secondly, that I think Ryedale was under the impression that Policy E two wouldn't affect local authorities' choice of allocated sites but that it was a policy to apply outside of developing units and those sites we wish to allocate in local plan and not that was going to restrict our choice, in our case in those sites. And thirdly, with regard to Mr Donson's concern erm I don't feel that the policy precludes the provision of low cost housing on exception sites, er certainly hope it doesn't. Erm however, if it could be made clear perhaps with an extra paragraph in the explanatory memorandum that I would welcome that. [speaker001:] Thank you. Succinctly put. Can we come back at two and go straight into matter C, major exceptions. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Okay Ron there are, thanks for coming over for a start, there are you've got all the er the brochure and the er obviously the application form. The first time I've had a chance to have a look through this so could I erm [Ron:] Yes by all [Rod:] ask you to while I read this the the six companies where we market our brochures or product [Ron:] Okay [Rod:] are represented there. Er for your background there's a there's obviously a a ha an obvious group but er those are the six companies. If I can just er read through this.... That company we bought erm in June last year so it's er a fairly newish launch for us but they're [Ron:] I've an idea myself for the golf er [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] and that was erm supplying them with a complete mar tee marker board with a plan of the hole and an advert on that particular hole. [Rod:] Oh you oh you mean up on the board or [Ron:] On the board. [Rod:] Yes okay. [Ron:] Advertise sell that hole and er just basically supply the tee markers free of charge. [Rod:] Yes all the er tees on our my own my own course are er sponsored by local businesses. [Ron:] Well that's what I was going to personally [Rod:] that's individual eighteen holes mind you know. [Ron:] Yeah. What I was going to do was erm just get a good quality joiner have he gives me a price for doing that and then I basically sell the advertising. [Rod:] Okay. Yeah that he we've just completed up here and one or two others er so we're we're getting some big boys in now. [Ron:] But you've not you've not done that particular idea, tees? [Rod:] No no we've we're we are er publishers printers that's where our background is. That's where we've been for the last twenty years so erm this company er that was already doing it and we bought it into the er into the fold.... Okay. Er can I just pick up on one or two points er Ron. Erm at present you are employed by and you you've got own you've got a company car. Have you got your own car? [Ron:] Er no but that's no problem to buy a car. [Rod:] Well if you think it's no [LAUGHTER] problem fine []. [Ron:] So rather than have er two cars plus a company car I just sold my car. [Rod:] Well I understand that I mean a lot of people do that. Erm however erm a company er a car is needed to do this job so I I home in on that. Er when we have erm when you come down for, you know if if if we decide that this is for you, er when you come down for a training course they expect to see a car. You know in other words [Ron:] will help me driving. [Rod:] In other words erm they won't allocate an assignment unless you have er have a car. It's as simple as that cos we could send you off to St Andrews or something like that to er to well I'm just I'm homing in on the erm on the golf on the basis that I you you're er you're representative for a a company that does is involved with golf equipment. Yep? [Ron:] Erm sports or just golf industry. [Rod:] Mhm. Oh I've seen there in fact my wife's got a set of Howsons so [Ron:] Has she? [Rod:] Is that the [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Yeah. Erm you've been with them since August. Er what why are you er? [Ron:] Well quite simply er my reason is that erm I'll read the letter to you that I dictated to the Sales Manager a week ago. [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] It says, [reading] To Mr Sales and Marketing Direct. Dear Graham, Further to our recent conversation by telephone I now wish to put on paper my complaints regarding you and the company. You employed me in August nineteen ninety three at to join Sports U K on their behalf. Your offer of employment was accepted on the terms of the contract agreed that if my figures attained would reach your targets I could earn twenty five thousand per annum minimum. The salary would base as my basic salary plus commission plus bonuses on a monthly basis and most importantly the promise that because the basic wage was so low, the lowest in the golf industry by your own words, er that there was to be a rise of approximately four thousand in January nineteen ninety four. Which you repeated many times to the sales reps and that you also would be have er would get us new cars. The cars were honoured as agreed. I also took on the position knowingly of the bad reputation in Scotland of Sports to the trade regarding hotel sales of your equipment, but was promised that this practice would be cut out. It never did and you continued to supply a person who to this date continues to do these hotel sales. I have also complained to you continually about the loss of orders I have taken from my customers, ie back orders which get lost on the computer or they are not delivered due to the lack of stock. The customer gives up after a few months waiting. In the past few months the complaints from my area from my customers that they are disgusted with the service they have received from Sports. Er at least thirty percent of my business erm have either stopped their accounts or reached the limit of their patience. With regards to my salary increase of January ninety four, recently you have now stated my increase with be take place in April ninety four. Another promise broken. Even though I have reached my monthly target I still receive no bonuses but you tell me I am on target for the large bonus in April. [] Er and I have put in brackets, What a month this could be. [reading] I have also found that rep the reps are all on different basic wages. When challenged about this you replied, Yes, but you have the least experience in the golf industry. And I have replied er, Who in the past six months has reached their targets percentage targets above mine in the last six months? [] [Rod:] Yeah okay. I think I've got your drift. [Ron:] Basically what I'm doing is [Rod:] Can I can I just go back hotel sales, is that where they supply er [Ron:] They are they er are doing a practice which is the only golf company in industry who are supplying a friend of a friend who is going round Scotland doing hotel sales cheap. [Rod:] Oh yeah all right. [Ron:] There are so many clubs they should [Rod:] I think I think I've been to one or two in York. [Ron:] Well they're selling them cheaper than I can supply my customers. [Rod:] Are your customers mainly [Ron:] Pro professionals. [Rod:] On clubs or [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] And shops golf shops? [Ron:] Yes. So basically they've broken their contract with me and he's not even responded to that letter. So [Rod:] But his response is likely to be well part company, is that it? [Ron:] I anticipating that is what response will be because I have er basically called him and er [Rod:] Okay. [Ron:] If that's his case then I'll take him for breach of contract. [Rod:] Okay. On the basis of that you're actively looking around? [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. Now my colleague John spoke with you and he he outlined as much as he possibly can on the on the space on the telephone. Erm and his interests in you was twofold. First of all he heard the voice was [LAUGHTER] okay []. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Because he would have told you I hope that er we sell advertising space into, well you've seen some samples over there. Er I'm going to step, sorry before I go into a bit more detail in your C on your er application form, three things will be decided here today Ron and that's first of all whether you and I think that er is a lau a launch pad for you to earn erm er some good money [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] and er I'm sure John will have told you how good the money can be if if we [Ron:] We didn't get to depth and and [Rod:] All right. I I we're only talking ever averages and on target earnings. We don't promise or guarantee anything. What we do say is that we will give you an opportunity erm er if you like a platform for er for earning good money [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] and er it is all down to the graft er an individual puts into it. The only reason er top earners are top earners in our company is they don't sit back and take one deal a day [Ron:] That's right [Rod:] they feel comfortable [Ron:] Er er if there if there's a part there I've dis I think I've answered that question in er personal at the end [Rod:] Over over here? Yep. [Ron:] Erm I think just I've answered that just probably the way you put it. [Rod:] Yep. I er in fact you've wrapped it up in one sentence. That's the only way that any I believe anybody even when they're on a salary. Because salary company car BUPA and all that is only commission in another form and they can take it away and and not give it to you just the same as any other company. Erm well okay so we'll decide today er you and me whether we feel 's the right er er space for you to be. Erm and you realize of course that it's self employed commission only hence the need for the car. Er secondly if we get a if we if we get round that that er corner then the other two are fairly easily decidable and that is er where you and I also think erm your talents and your even your desire to be environmentally, that's the environment you work in erm most er suitable. There are six companies there er five of which erm I can recruit for. I'm in the luxurious position of not just saying that one person comes in here for one job. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Erm I have four or five people I can take on for any one of those companies so nobody's in competition with [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] each other today. And secondly erm because we're rather keen for people to er carry on the momentum we actually say to you when can you start and if it's next week wonderful. If it's the week after fine. The further out of course it's a bit a bit messy. And so we are we look for that sort of commitment before people leave er the room today. And I would tell you ninety nine percent of the time we get it and you know we s we s we do agree a date. Er that depends entirely on which company you go in because erm er some of the courses start at different er times. If we've agreed all those three things er we also erm er recognize the need to to erm advise people or guide people on how advertising's sold. I see from your application form that you've sold space er for three or four years which [Ron:] Well I have been er involved in various projects. Erm I had a company called and Advertising erm where I went along to a company and would conceive promotion for them. [Rod:] Was that your own company? [Ron:] Yes. Yes. And I would build a package to suit their company. Er if it was a double glazing company or a kitchen company I would conceive a promotion. Er there's one thing I was involved which er unfortunately turned out er was quite national, it was a promotion [Rod:] What the the disastrous one? [Ron:] Yes. Er well the one I got involved with er was the free flights to er Europe [Rod:] All right. [Ron:] which was very successful and er I was one of the instigators of that promotion. Er but [Rod:] So everybody else can blame you for this [Ron:] Well not really. The the pen to paper I put the con er the package basically together with another two or three people [Rod:] Aha. [Ron:] and erm it was then up to to decide what company was going to handle the promotion. Er their mistake was that they chose a company which was down market and basically didn't go into er depth of that company. Well that was their fault. The the concept of the promotion was absolutely brilliant and it could be handled from Europe [Rod:] Mm. [Ron:] erm and it was so successful that they asked us again to do one from the United States [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] which we says no because it couldn't be possibly done. We believed. Becau we thought that the should may be too high. [Rod:] What are you saying that you were the ori the company who were originally asked to do the [Ron:] My company was involved with er the people who put the promotion together. [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] And er quite simply that if they'd left it alone on a European side because obviously you can get flight from London Gatwick for approximately forty nine pounds [Rod:] Yeah right. [Ron:] and we presumed that the redemption would be no more than twenty percent which was pretty high for a promotion. [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] Erm as long as as long as the customer went through the channels and the procedures there'd no more than twenty percent. So much so that we took out insurance er if it went over twenty percent we were covered. But then what happened it was so successful for and I think got so greedy on it they decided to go an American [Rod:] Mm. [Ron:] er promotion. But there were two separate companies who set up the the both promotions. So as you know the American one collapsed and of course were thirty million pounds. [Rod:] Yeah and there are some people are still fighting to get their er flights right [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] now aren't they? [Ron:] And I erm I had various er promotions. I had er put a promotion together with a few travel agents in Scotland where I gave out holiday spending money. It was quite simply we we were taking the business away from the high street erm glossy type travel agents and giving it to the back street travel agents. And as long as he was prepared to give the spending money, ie in the form of a voucher, er we were taking away the market share away from etcetera of this world. [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] And that worked very successfully. [Rod:] Okay this is all part of the promotion and advertising [Ron:] Yes [Rod:] time? [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. Because the rest of your er er your application form I mean er gives us a span of er twelve thirteen years in sales particularly in direct sales. Vacuums is that vacuum [Ron:] Yes [Rod:] cleaners? [Ron:] Yes. cleaning machine was an American machine. [Rod:] Right, yes I think I've heard of them. Yes. [Ron:] Erm very successful priced basically out of the price the market eventually. Erm they're still in the market today but er you're talking about [Rod:] Are we talking VAX type things or [Ron:] No no. You're talking about a home care system. That is a vacuum cleaner, that's one of the functions it does [Rod:] Yeah. [Ron:] but it done approximately thirty odd diff different [Rod:] Oh well shampoo carpets okay and I suppose er er suites of furniture and things [Ron:] I had the sales force who called in and done a demonstration in a person's home. [Rod:] All right. [Ron:] So I had to take it from the telesales side to get the appointment to get in the door to do a demonstration and then to do the after sales. [Rod:] Right okay. [Ron:] Erm [Rod:] You cut your teeth there didn't you? [LAUGHTER] [Ron:] I erm I was [Rod:] If not before. [Ron:] I was a European top salesman with er that company and then moved on as a franchise. [Rod:] Right. You seem to erm er you you leapfrog into erm after into electrical appliances again? [Ron:] Er yes because obviously I was in that type of field. Er I was in the market and we came out with a machine that produced lager from top tap worker. [Rod:] That's still going isn't it? [Ron:] Yes. And you just poured the water in top press a button and you get draught lager and they have now produced I believe, er it was network marketing, and I wasn't involved I didn't want involved in network marketing and it now produces gin and tonic vodka lemonade. [Rod:] Well it's been on er consumer selling [Ron:] Yes. Very good product. Excellent product but er the f the network marketing is not my side and you could not direct selling. [Rod:] All right. It's all done okay. [Ron:] You had to bring someone into the business and they brought someone into the business and that was their form of selling. [Rod:] Well that's that's big business nowadays. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] In fact in the State I think twenty percent of er all products are sold through network marketing now [Ron:] That's right [Rod:] In fact the Institute of Directors of which I'm a member er said er that network marketing's a thing of the future. [Ron:] Yes definitely. I mean it started [Rod:] Yeah if if you're if you're happy to get into that. Can cost you some money but it's er it's it's it's prefer it's preferable to er pyramid selling which of course is outlawed now. [Ron:] The reason I went to erm Sports [Rod:] Mhm? [Ron:] erm which quite simply I had some money of my own and I wasn't that hungry er to jump in to any job at all. So I wanted to get into something I enjoyed doing. And I'm a very keen golfer and I had built up a reputation erm by playing in open tour open tournaments and meeting professionals and [Rod:] Yea. [Ron:] so I had a lot of contacts and I enjoyed it. Erm but it unfortunately things have not worked out with er this particular company. [Rod:] Well no it doesn't sound by that er letter you wrote. I think you f you felt [Ron:] I I have done my job. My targets er have been broken every month. I had a hundred and twenty seven percent er sorry twenty seven percent above target er for the quarter and most of my other com my sales reps er the other sales reps in the business didn't even reach a hundred percent. [Rod:] Well how do you feel I mean a lot of a lot if not all of your work here has been done face to face. Now [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] John will have told you the way we operate er we we we er we [Ron:] Telephone [Rod:] only sell on the telephone. [Ron:] That's what people. [Rod:] Well erm you know we've had a lot of people come to us and say we've qualified sales by telephone, I don't present that a problem with that, but we have discovered people have not listened to what we've been saying, even on the training course, when they go out there to sell the space they keep making appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. That is not the game. And as long as somebody realizes that that's our top people erm do that. They don't make appointments to go and see people. What what I mean where do you see yourself fitting into that after [Ron:] If I if it was sat trying to make an appointment with you for example er and I don't know too much about the product we're just getting [Rod:] No fine. Well there I mean there's the product there's [Ron:] Well give me I'll give you an example. If I was phoning you from Publishing and I phoned up G A [Rod:] Aha. [Ron:] and I says, Good afternoon could I speak to the person that does advertising etcetera, and I get through to that particular person, and I said, How would you like to save money by us printing all your portfolios free of charge high quality er portfolios it wouldn't cost you a penny. [Rod:] Right let me stop you there because I think you've got maybe the wrong end of the stick. [Ron:] All right. [Rod:] We don't sell that product to anybody. [Ron:] No no you give that product away free. [Rod:] Okay but we don't your the responsibility of the sales consultant here is not to approach the estate agent or the golf to sell that, somebody else does that. [Ron:] Oh I thought I had to get the estate agent first and then get the space. [Rod:] No no no no we the the the assignments that are, that's why I stopped you there [Ron:] Oh I see [Rod:] just in case there's any confusion. [Ron:] Right okay. [Rod:] That product there already either exists or we're going to do it for the first time for an estate agent [Ron:] Right okay. [Rod:] and that has been done by a marketing exec who goes round the country contracting with those clients. [Ron:] Oh right. [Rod:] This is our client. [Ron:] So that's the job there. [Rod:] That's the job for our consultant [Ron:] So okay. Now let's let's say Mr Mr Plumber [Rod:] So you're you're talking to Mr Plumber and you don't even mention our company name [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] you are representing G A [Ron:] G A [Rod:] at that er so and so [Ron:] Okay. Er good afternoon Mr Smith I'm phoning er from G A General Property Services in such and such [Rod:] Okay. [Ron:] Now you you live in the catchment area of that particular company, how would you like to er, how would you like to participating in that particular company's brochure which is handed out to all the people in your catchment area? Whereas if a house is being sold your name is going to be seen on that particular product. [Rod:] All right. Now I'll I'll stop you there Ron because you've got the you've got the drift of it because when we get down to deciding people come on a course then they have [Ron:] Training. [Rod:] we we we speak for two days at least in compiling a script. And that script has been built up over twenty years experience. But you've certainly the idea of what it is. [Ron:] Telesales er telephone erm I have sold products obviously without the customer even seeing me, I've sold them over the phone. I am confident on the phone [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] and [Rod:] I don't think you'd have any problem doing this job, I'll be quite frank with you. [Ron:] Er I [Rod:] Not with this background here. I mean it's such a variety and it's involved both face to face and direct sales that er er I know I stopped you right in the middle of your spiel there. Now what you would say to Mr Plumber, This is this is the whole deal this is what it would cost you. You see in traditional sales we don't tell people the price until the last minute. [Ron:] At that particular time I wouldn't tell them anything, all my all at that particular time is waiting for an appointment to see them. [Rod:] Now that's what we don't do Ron. [Ron:] Oh you don't go out and see them. [Rod:] Absolutely that's what exactly I'm asking you to listen about. [Ron:] The reason I'm asking you about that is erm I had er I had when I had my own business I was approached and we've got an estate agent in the Hamilton called [Rod:] Oh oh yes big one. [Ron:] And I had a phone call [Rod:] Big one in Paisley here too. [Ron:] I had a phone call from somebody who was obviously be doing exactly the same thing, and he actually just was booking an appointment to come in and see me. [Rod:] Yeah. Well in fact it I would be very surprised A if he was one of ours and B if he was successful. Because quite honestly we tell them absolutely everything on the phone before we we go. We don't make appointments and chase our tail. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] And I'll tell you from experience. My first week our there I did that and I didn't earn anything. [Ron:] Right. [Rod:] I got to the appoint yes come round Rod I'd like to talk to about it have a cup of coffee. And I just spent three quarters of an hour to an hour with him and he said, Well I've had a look at this erm, no thanks not for me. [Ron:] Mm. [Rod:] I had wasted [Ron:] So you phoned [Rod:] my journey there. Oh yes all of those people would have committed on the phone to taking that advertising space. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] See why I want I wanted to be [Ron:] Yes yes [Rod:] absolutely certain. Because that's exactly what traditional sales people would do including [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] this boy who'd been doing it a few years. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] So and they will te they will tell you that. Now that's what the company preaches. There are going to be one or two occasions of course when it is likely come come round I want to I'll I want to see the product. In the main we tell them exactly [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] what what's going on. But you you've got the drift and as long as I I persuade people to listen to the people who've been doing it for so long [Ron:] Obviously. [Rod:] They know it's successful. They know that you don't make appointments and chase your tail. Because one of the commitments I hope John er may have told you on the phone, one of the parts of the contract we have with G A is that they provide a list of businesses. [Ron:] Yes. That's obviously that's I would [Rod:] Yeah now that I'll come on to that in a minute. But er that is is half the battle. Okay. On the basis that I don't think you've got any problem doing this and nor do you, you're confident enough to do this job especially with your background. Erm if I was to give you an option a choice of which market area you think you would be most happy with, where do you think? [Ron:] Where is the market areas, what is the choices? [Rod:] Well the choices are estate agents and there are two companies there, that's one you're holding there and then the folders at the top. There's medical practice areas, that's working in medical centres and surgeries. Er schools universities and colleges. Area health authorities up here which we're not looking for at the moment and er because the Government is hashing them around and we're a bit uncertain in that area. And of course golf clubs. [Ron:] Well golf clubs erm I mean it's a bit limited advertising in a in a market er on this particular thing to look at. [Rod:] You've got five you've got probably somewhere in the region of four thousand pounds worth of advertising there. [Ron:] What in this? [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] Okay so they're paying approximately what [Rod:] Nine hundred pound for a nine hundred pound for a full page. [Ron:] Per annum. [Rod:] Per annum for two years. [Ron:] Okay. Er and you're only needing approximately two or three, you only need two or three [Rod:] Well the fact that we've got three there, there there that's how many we got on that card and we were quite happy about that. But the card and the planner's sold together. [Ron:] Right can I ask you then. So you're s you're saying the plan of the course er when [Rod:] We call it planners that the yardage chart in fact. [Ron:] There's also another thing that a golf course has is a where you want a distance marker. If you go along to a good quality golf course they have the score card a planner but they also have a little script that tells you about the hole. [Rod:] Well no we don't go into that. That's fi quite expensive to produce. [Ron:] Right okay so [Rod:] That's a stro that would be what you would call a stroke saver. We would call that, there's that and the ca and the score card. [Ron:] So if I had if I had one course to go along and find approximately how many adverts for it? [Rod:] Well we're talking about ten. [Ron:] Ten adverts? [Rod:] That's five five on each. [Ron:] Er and of course nine hundred pounds to advertise. [Rod:] Well that's if they che if they all took full pages. Because there're there are facilities to split the pages and there are small strips. If you where your hand is now if you look down the bottom, no no on the on the other side there, there are two strips. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Two hundred and fifty pound each those are. [Ron:] Now the question is how much can I earn for doing that [Rod:] Right well I will go into that if if that [Ron:] If I were to make my decision obviously [Rod:] No [Ron:] because [Rod:] Well the the same earning ability is across all those products. [Ron:] The same earning [Rod:] Doesn't doesn't matter which company you go into you have the same er percentage, you have the same thirty percent or thirty five percent depending on how far away it is and you have the same bonus structures. They all come into being at the same time. So whichever company or environment we agree is suitable for you. [Ron:] Well I mean [Rod:] The natural place would be of course golf clubs. But you said you were a keen golfer. Where do you think I see the dangers in that? I'm captain of my club this year right? I wouldn't trust me on the golf club scene. [Ron:] You wouldn't trust yourself? [Rod:] Why why? I could kill the advertising simple. [Ron:] Probably because you would want to go and play. [Rod:] Aha. [Ron:] Erm [Rod:] So I'll tell you what, if we put a keen golfer out, and we have we've we've put one or two golfers, [Ron:] If I [Rod:] if we put a keen golfer on that it's even bigger er position of trust. [Ron:] Well can I say something to you in that case then? [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Yes sure. [] [Ron:] I I I visit approximately about thirty golf clubs on a weekly basis [Rod:] Yeah. [Ron:] I have never played golf time. [Rod:] You haven't got time have you. You haven't got time. Here we're talking about basing yourself for three weeks on that same golf course. [Ron:] Aha. [Rod:] Doing erm two or three dozen phone calls [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] and getting nowhere and you're saying I think I'm thor thoroughly annoyed about all this [Ron:] And I'm going to get nowhere if I get on the golf course. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah that's right []. [Ron:] No I don't think that worry would be there. [Rod:] I I have to say that we we I I we just we just see that we point out to people it's an even bigger po position of trust. But it would be natural for me to put you in the golf club area. [Ron:] Er well I don't think I'd be I don't think I'd be going out to play golf if I hadn't earned any money. [Rod:] That's right. [Ron:] Er [Rod:] Well [Ron:] I'd go hungrier. [Rod:] So are we are we talking er do you see this as a as a as a launch pad? [Ron:] How well have you done on the golf courses? [Rod:] Well the one those since since June we're doing quite well. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] We did we've just completed we've done three or four others. But I don't I have to keep in touch of course with all companies how we're doing. So I don't go specifically into that. [Ron:] Yeah. Next question is [Rod:] Aha? [Ron:] The golf course is no problem because you're getting it done free of charge. That that's easy for you to get a golf course. [Rod:] Yeah we we have no problem with that. [Ron:] Is that an up market golf or is it just [Rod:] No. [Ron:] Any type of golf course [Rod:] Any golf course that wants those providing they can tell us that there's erm there's going to be a useful amount of sponsorship you know er advertising available for us to approach. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] But it would be no good to them and say well you know right in the middle of nowhere, cow er sheep or cow country, there are a number of courses we wouldn't touch because we wouldn't be able to get enough sus er you know even with five erm major businesses. There there I have to say there'd be very few. [Ron:] Right. Can I approach my own golf clubs or is that going to be done through you? [Rod:] No you must not do that yourself. [Ron:] It's got to be done by you. [Rod:] Yeah if if you know of one because we we have cir you know we have circulated and we have a sales exec that goes out [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] to the courses. Erm that doesn't mean to say that you can't mention it. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] But you see you will be so busy [Ron:] Just I know the topography probably better than erm [Rod:] Oh sure. [Ron:] the person that's doing it, just er no disrespect but he's probably coming from over the border [Rod:] No no they're all Scots people up here. [Ron:] Ah right. Okay. [Rod:] We're only having two or three up here anyway for the for the. [Ron:] And you're saying that one golf course I could be there for two or three weeks? [Rod:] Two to three weeks. We have to get off after three weeks. [Ron:] What is my earning potential in that golf course for that two or three weeks? [Rod:] Right well I'll go through that in detail so we're talking about that. Okay I'll show you the details. [Ron:] Well looking at that I wouldn't I'd like to leave it a wee while my options open because in the in the [Rod:] Sorry how d'ya how d'ya mean? [Ron:] Because I feel there's also a possibility that in erm private private er homes etcetera there's a big market erm for producing your private. And in Scotland just now there's an awful lot of erm private homes open now. [Rod:] Private residential you mean nursing [Ron:] Yes yes [Rod:] Well that that comes under the medical side. [Ron:] Yes well that again is a [Rod:] But you cannot do one you only do one you can't do both. [Ron:] Right okay. Erm so I think I would be between the golf and and erm the medical side. [Rod:] Right the medical side erm we are producing medical practice booklets all right. The only the only approach to residential homes and nursing homes is as advertisers in those medical books. [Ron:] Mhm. What do you think in your opinion or in your experience would the best avenue be for me to follow? [Rod:] I I [clears throat] I think you have an option in both. I mean the advertising's more expensive in that but er erm it depends on how good you think you are. [Ron:] Well it's [Rod:] You you know the golf [Ron:] Nine hundred pounds to me erm if it's an up market company anyway, erm nine hundred pounds for a year's advertising isn't that expensive. [Rod:] Well it's not really. Not when you compare it with what they might advertise in Golf Monthly or something like that where [Ron:] That's right. [Rod:] where they will be seen once and it's dumped. [Ron:] That's right I mean this card is carried with them and looked at all every every basically everybody will look at that erm because the good quality [Rod:] If I was to tell you that given a perfect world that has the highest earning potential of all our companies [Ron:] Well let's decide and look at that then. [Rod:] Yeah. Because er there are two there are two products. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] And remember we we resell every two years. [Ron:] Okay. And I take it erm the commission structure is just the same if I am continuing a contract on for the following year. [Rod:] Let me let me just let me get this pack out for you to take away. Is this is this an area where you think you might earn some money? [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] All right we can give you the we can give you the platform. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] What we have to decide here is that you think is a is a [Ron:] I think is a very blue chip company. I've look at er your own presentations. [Rod:] It's a blue chip brochure that. [Ron:] And it's a blue chip brochure and I think obviously what I needing now after by the experience I've had with is to get behind a company who will give me the backing. [Rod:] Right. Well there's er one thing I can tell you right now that I would not personally be involved with a company that did not have erm a backing. There are [Ron:] All right. [Rod:] plenty of companies that er er this these er these can be printed by most printing companies what they don't have is the infrastructure and the backup er [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] back in head office to do that with. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] And when we when we ask people to go out we it is er a total trust self employed but they are quote employed unquote. Because one things we one thing we don't have is people running other businesses alongside what we give them. So in other words if you're there for two to three weeks you're solidly for. There isn't er er there is no, people have gone because they've been doing other things other than er. But it's a full time commitment. [Ron:] As long as the earning capacity's there then get a hundred percent. [Rod:] Right. And that's all we ask because we'll give it a hundred percent. These are some samples for you to take away okay?... But let me show you exactly what we... I'll I'll bring in to being the list of businesses which we invite the golf club to forward to us. When the sales er marketing exec goes round to the golf club to sign them up in the contract with the contract we will print one or other or both. The contract will state whether they have both or not. All right? That means that if they only take the score card then you're in there fairly quickly do the advertising sales and come out and on to another site. So you don't expect there to be two to three weeks work there. If you're doing both then of course you're you're looking to offer the options to er [Ron:] Yeah if you can do it in a week all the better. [Rod:] Some advertisers go on both by the way. They want to be on both. [Ron:] Rod can I ask you a question? [Rod:] Yes sure. [Ron:] How many contracts you're basing them on two to three weeks. Let's say that erm I was these contracts within the first ten days. How many contracts am I going to get in a year? [Rod:] Well you work it out. It depends on how much time you want off. [Ron:] No how many contracts can I physically get if I want? [Rod:] You can have as many as you want. The the way the company operates is that we will assign you to a golf course. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] We have in our contract that more or less we will get out after three weeks. You know what whatever the situation is we we done it by then, but er we we do they they are guaranteeing to supply us with an office and telephone facility for up to three weeks. [Ron:] Okay maximum. [Rod:] Maximum. [Ron:] Right. [Rod:] Erm or fifteen working days. I mean if there are two or three days off during that or one day off you take for instance, as long as it's fifteen working days. Erm and that is to do er one or the other or both. They might extend it if we have to do both. [Ron:] So will you will you [Rod:] So so you can if you took if you took one week off every three assignments [Ron:] Aha. [Rod:] all right? You can work out that over a period of time you would have somewhere in the region of fifteen assignments during the year guaranteed. We guarantee continuity of assignment. [Ron:] How many erm are already signed up at this present day for someone to follow on to now? [Rod:] I suppose I could only use the word tons. [Ron:] Tons of them right. So there there are basically a waiting list? [Rod:] Oh yes. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] On all of our products. We have six hundred assignments alone on the medical side. Because we're reselling. We haven't got to the reselling stage with these yet because we've been going about six months so the first resale is eighteen months away. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] But we've got so many new courses so worry about that er that doesn't present a problem. [Ron:] Erm the timing for golf courses. Obviously these cards [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] have got to be ready for the season starting? [Rod:] Not always. Er we we go in and sell the advertising if they er we'll take over as soon as the current supply runs out we we'll start offering er and supply it for them. That that doesn't present a problem to us. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] More so on schools because they're closed for [Ron:] Yeah that's right. [Rod:] the summer holidays, sometimes. But even that we're we have special arrangements for. We don't worry about the seasonal er aspects. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] They ju er you know people hear er the sales consultants doing courses right now erm you know find that that we'll print them and we'll probably print them in in by May although they'll have needed some cards. So that [Ron:] Do you give the customer unlimited supplies of these? [Rod:] Er it's agreed by the er [Ron:] Executive that's doing it. [Rod:] by the by the er s the sa sales the marketing executive and the golf club agreed a number. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] All right? We will know somewhere how much we need definitely [Ron:] To print [Rod:] to make sure of the print. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Because the second year where no costs come out of the second year's er payment that's our that's where we make our money. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] The first year we [Ron:] Because the plates have already been set up etcetera etcetera. [Rod:] Absolutely yes. All the costs your commissions marketing executive's commission right. Now we ask er the club to supply er in between us signing them up for to to do the cards to them to the consultant erm er getting there getting there to do the assignment could be five or six months. We don't you know we've got clubs still waiting that we signed up last year. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er we we make that quite plain to them all right that there might be a delay. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] All right until their number comes up as it were. Er in the meantime we we leave them erm er a list or a a sheet like or something similar to this, I haven't got one for at the moment, erm asking them to list out all those business with which they have some er may be some link up. You just have to look round a lot of trophy cabinets and you can see a lot of locally sponsored cups and trophies in there. [Ron:] Plus a lot a members have their own business. [Rod:] Plus plus yes and especially if if I went, we went to and I think it was er from the membership. [Ron:] Yes. I would imagine a lot of it could be. [Rod:] And these are very typical er advertisers and erm, whether you agree with it or not, these are. Whoever supplies the bar. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] It may be this any of the suppliers. So there's a lot of scope a lot more scope on these to be more direct because they're quality ads and they're quality product. [Ron:] My particular er my particular club has about approximately thirty businessmen in various varying from double glazing kitchens [Rod:] Yes. What what a what prestige. [Ron:] who would love to be involved in their own club. [Rod:] Absolutely yes. Absolutely. So we've you know that's why I believe that this is this is gonna be our real launch pad for the future. [Ron:] This will be easy for me. [Rod:] Aha. Put that in quotes will you? [LAUGHTER]. [Ron:] I I mean [Rod:] I well if you've got that confidence fine. And and when that when the when the assignment comes up when Ron is assigned to X club wherever that is erm that will be the sheet the sheet will be provided [Ron:] For me? [Rod:] for you to work on. Now one of the most important things that we've established erm is that er you need to sit down still with the secretary of the club and say right now you've got this list of businesses tell me more about them. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] It's not simple You should not just say, oh there's good I'll phone him now because you need some valuable information. So we make, but all that is is tau is is is [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] directed on the course. So that's going to be very useful and you will get information about all these firms it could be that member has already been advised and he's willing. Could be little notes here already notified us that he's happy to go on [Ron:] He wants to go ahead with it. [Rod:] He wants to go ahead. Wonderful. That's how quickly you can you can speed up the operation. Erm now to to give you and there would be other details by the way er other er information concerning that assignment like how many cards we're printing like what the target is. The average target across all of our products is somewhere in the region of six thousand. But I'm going to show you a bit more detail for. First of all let's give you an idea of what the the prices are, we've talked about prices. Now we talk full pages most of the time. If we can get full pages fine but sometimes it's better for us to get these. It could be that there's more money avail [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. You can you can work that out for yourself. But erm a full cover is nine hundred pounds full front cover. Now what happens there some some, particularly motor companies, will ask permission if they can put some cars in front of the club house if there's a photograph of the clubhouse and have them photographed. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] That's considered to be a full page. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] Full front cover. Now some clubs are quite happy for an ad to be there and for the golf club name to be there. It [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] really depends on the choice of [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] the individual. That and then front cover strip down the bottom here that one there is six hundred pounds. So that you can you can see there's a a some options here. My mention on the planner that the strips oops those strips, all these prices are identified here and when you take this away you can have a look at it. Okay? Erm and er there you will see how the the volume is made up. If you have filled all the spaces available those are the two totals. [Ron:] You're looking for five thousand three hundred and eighty [Rod:] And four thousand seven hundred and sixty. Let's have a look which is more important to you. Let's have a look at how your money is made up. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Score card has always a target of four thousand pound. Now that's an internal target for us to work on and for you to to have fixed in your mind because everything above four thousand pound you will get forty five percent commission instead of thirty. [Ron:] Mhm. Yes. [Rod:] And that's made up of thirty percent and tha that's the total revenue you can get on, sell all that card and that's the total revenue you can get. Thirty percent of that equals that [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] the bonuses will be or the bonus will be that and your total on the card therefore is eighteen twenty one. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you're doing the planner at the same time thirty percent and that's the that's the total amount you can get on a planner, but the target there is thirty two hundred. That target is really star is for the the bonus purposes. In other words after that we start paying another fifteen percent. [Ron:] What's the percentage for er both doing the score card and the course planner for a cou er a golf course? [Rod:] Well you would treat them as a separate entity. You you mean in terms of bonus or? [Ron:] No what is the percentage-wise of taking both er the the golf course when both done? [Rod:] I I I can't answer that I really don't know. [Ron:] Because it's there's if I'm there for three weeks and they only want a score card done then my potential earnings er total earnings are that but I'm there anyway so if I'm getting both of them done then I can earn a lot more money. [Rod:] Oh you can earn a lot more money certainly. But you'll you'll if you're only doing the card you'll do that much quicker. [Ron:] Yes and then [Rod:] And then you're straight on to the next job. [Ron:] I'd be out of the door quicker. [Rod:] You'd be out of the door quicker. So it's it is swings and roundabouts there. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] If you're doing both then that's your total income and if you did that in three weeks I would think you'd be very happy with that. [Ron:] Oh yes. Er [Rod:] That's a thousand pound or plus a week. [Ron:] Yep. Erm... [Rod:] And I believe that with with your background and knowledge then sure that that's achievable. [Ron:] I wouldn't I would like to think I could. [Rod:] Because if that if you had if you had a perfect year it is that. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] Then of course if you want to take time off and things like that. [Ron:] I'm being honest er Rod if I can earn myself twenty five thirty thousand I'm not I'm not looking for you know fortunes. I'm looking for a decent income with the right company. [Rod:] Right well you twenty five thousand a year is about the minimum the company er you wouldn't be doing the job if you were below that. [Ron:] I mean net I mean net. I tax [Rod:] Okay right. In that case you're looking for thirty five thirty six thousand which would be mister average in our company. [Ron:] Right okay. I don't want to be mister average so we'll go for the fifty five. [Rod:] We'll go for the fifty five. Well if you have that attitude then you'll do it. [Ron:] We'll go for it. [Rod:] All right. Okay well that's erm every assignment to you you always have and this is being this had been updated we haven't got the new one yet but you will have what we call a blank. And you will go around er using this to show people well I've sold that and that's mister so and so or that's such and such business that's gone so that you can show people that you've actually sold these. In other words that's your work horse. [Ron:] Can I can I honestly make a suggestion? I mean there's [Rod:] Well if it's to do with anything you've seen here please make it in the right quarters not [LAUGHTER] at me []. [Ron:] No the suggestion is we're in the golf club and we're doing a planner we're not doing a score card [Rod:] Yes. [Ron:] and I know it's not erm your business to be doing tee markers [Rod:] Plea please can I ask you if you bring in any other ideas of business you'll be considered to be [Ron:] No I'm talking about the company doing it. [Rod:] Yeah yeah but forget it for now. [Ron:] Right okay. [Rod:] They are not of any interest to us. They are they do not they're not printed. [Ron:] Mhm. But they would be printed. [Rod:] Yeah but they're not they're not part of our range now. Because if you start getting if you get bogged down with discussing people about other products they'll think you're either gonna be doing them [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] as a side [Ron:] It's some once as a customer you can do it later stage. [Rod:] All right. Because you start talking too many other businesses, and this is a bit of advice for you [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] if you start talking any other business about wha except what you're doing there then they'll think that you're doing that as an as a side. And they'll take they'll take everything away from you no messing around. are very strict on that. [Ron:] Oh no no no no there are no intentions whatsoever the only thought was that er if you're into that type of advertising there's another eighteen spaces for the company. [Rod:] Yeah. We're not into that advertising. There are plenty of other companies doing that. [Ron:] Is there? [Rod:] But we are only interested in this particular product. [Ron:] Right okay. [Rod:] Okay. This is this is fairly new to us we bought the company because it was doing exactly what we were doing on other products. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] But we are not interested at this stage in tee markers and if you keep mentioning them Ron they'll think hello [Ron:] Well could could you tell me er how many [Rod:] Sorry that's just a bit of advice [Ron:] That's that's no problem I thought it was just erm a thought for yourself maybe you could give out. [Rod:] Oh oh they they will have in fact the guy who's who owned this company who's now general manager of the company within the group [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] erm has been has had his erm er his feelers out for all sorts of advertising. Because even tee markers is not the end of the story. [Ron:] Where is the golf company based? [Rod:] There're all based at head office. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] But you work from the clients premises at all at all times. [Ron:] Will that be in Scotland? [Rod:] Well it's in it it we have enough assignments up here to consider that that's probably right. But we've just had somebody from Glasgow go down to do my own course in Humberside. [Ron:] Aha. [Rod:] Now that was er er more or less a favour to me. [Ron:] Aha. [Rod:] But er what we say is that we will pay thirty percent up to a hundred miles away from home [Ron:] Aha. [Rod:] okay above that we will pay thirty five percent. And that's one way by the way not a fifty mile round trip and all we say to everybody whichever company they go into, we say to everybody who sits in your position there [tape change] [Ron:] Can I refuse an assignment then? [Rod:] You can discuss an assignment. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] But if that's your only opportunity to earn money that week [Ron:] Obviously then I'm going to take that [Rod:] or that time, you'll take it. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] Erm the guy down who's just done my my club earned himself eighteen hundred pound in one week and he paid about a hundred a twenty quid out for bed and breakfast. And probably forty pounds worth of of petrol there and back. [Ron:] So his expenses are his own. [Rod:] Aha. Yes. But if we were to send people consistently Glasgow to Humberside I don't think we'd have them very long. And there are enough golf courses up in Scotland. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] And that that guy has just been transferred to another group so you know we're now one short well in fact we're three or four short up in Scotland so. [Ron:] How many people er in this particular erm assignment would you have in Scotland, just the one off? [Rod:] Aha. At the moment. That's why I'm very keen about to get about four up here because that means at the moment we've got several several golf clubs waiting. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Quite a number in fact. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Because this is a the hive of the golf club industry. So those are the if you like the financial details and any any questions you have about that then er [Ron:] No I'm I'm very happy with [Rod:] In terms of paying commissions we pay them all the following week. I think John will have told you that. And certainly we have kept the amou the amount of administration down to a bear minimum if I can show you. We have the same contract for all of our products whichever company the only difference is that they're slightly colour coded. If you're colour blind tough. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] All right they're colour coded. Er there's not a one there yet. And what we in fact the the reason we tell people everything on the phone Ron is that there are some things that... pen I did have one here, [Ron:] Here you go. [Rod:] that's all right no I've got one over here somewhere... [noise of wind] [Ron:] It's some day it's turned out. [Rod:] Wow I think we'll get that on the tape recorder. The things that we make sure people know before we get there is the price all right, I've already mentioned that. The fact that we need a thirty five percent deposit cheque. The fact that er we take the balance of the first year's payment through a banker's order. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you don't tell them about the deposit cheque if you don't tell them about the banker's order they will say, Well just a minute Ron you didn't tell me that on the phone. I don't deal with [Ron:] I like the idea of thirty five percent up front and [Rod:] Well well that's the only way we can pay you your money then the following week. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] Because in fact when you go to a client you're picking up your own deposit cheque. It will be made out to us and we pay you the following week. [Ron:] Is this a two year contract? [Rod:] It is and wherever you quote nine hundred pound you quote them nine hundred pound per year [Ron:] Per annum. [Rod:] for a minimum of two years. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Even though the cards are reprinted every year it's it's still [Ron:] So you really need some sound businesses you don't need your [Rod:] You don't need your penny [Ron:] No. [Rod:] You will not get your local er plumber er on these. You're looking for high fliers and even car firms can go bust the second year. [Ron:] track record [phone rings] [Rod:] So you have to tell people all about. Hello... I wonder if you'd mind asking him to wait and I'll er be with him in about ten minutes. Oh can you offer him a coffee? Please thank you. Right. Yep you need some sound businesses [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] there's no doubt about it. Erm and they will want the prestige of being on the golf club and quite honestly, the golf club card, and quite honestly so does the golf club want [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] prestigious. That's why their list will be erm if you like pre-vetoed you know. They have they have the right of veto on whoever goes on there. However it's in their interests of course to allow you to get on and do your job. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] But if you don't tell them about things like banker's order about the signature, particularly if two s two erm signatures are wanted on the cheque and the banker's order, if the other guy's not there you don't go round until he's available. [Ron:] Of course. [Rod:] If you've left that contract with them you'd never see it again. The other aspects of erm that's the contract you've already got the contract and the cheque. The other thing that we want from the client advertising client to make it a full deal so that we can pay you the thirty thirty percent commission is copy. Now this is the only product we have where it's full four colour. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] So it's very important to know before you go round if if they've got copy. You say that I need to discuss copy when I've got there if you've got copy if they've had full colour before then they will have bromides and separations and things like [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] that. They will probably be using an agency. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] And at the training school Ron they will tell you exactly how we deal with those. [Ron:] Yes okay. [Rod:] There is a form which once again will exp be explained at the er on the training course. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] But that's the form. If they've never advertised before which is unlikely if we're going for high fli you know high flier [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] companies, that's the space down there. But I'm not going to er sit here teach you or show you how to do that because that's the training course responsibility. This is probably the most important form. And that is the commission form. All right. We c there once again all of these forms are colour coded, there's your one. All right so you can see that they're the same form. Advertising position the advertiser this will be the golf club that will be the town full and approved contract of what I've just described. There are a number of companies that we have across our erm all of our products which are what we call approved. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] And in fact you will have seen on those cards over there a BUPA hospital. [Ron:] Mhm. [Rod:] Those are covered by a special arrangement where we don't have to collect a cheque we don't have a banker's order but it's done through a erm a company invoice [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] All right. The difference there is instead of the cheque and the banker's order you have to pick up an official order from the BUPA hospital. [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] And BUPA hospitals, although they're very common of course on the medical side are are going to be obviously popular on the golf club side. [Ron:] Mm. They're going to be popular on the golf club? [Rod:] Oh yes. There's one if you pick up one there I think one of those cards there has got one on the planner and one on the erm [Ron:] Oh yes I see yes yes. [Rod:] One thing about advertising Ron is er is the danger of prejudging who will and who will not come into our product. And we've we've proven that er some people have said, Oh well he won't come on he can't either afford it or he doesn't want to. And we've turned it round. [Ron:] I've found that many times in [LAUGHTER] sales []. [Rod:] Okay now erm the only question mark we have at the moment Ron is the car. [Ron:] Question mark for me or the car? [Rod:] Well if you can give me some reassurance [Ron:] Oh no no problem. [Rod:] Okay. [Ron:] I mean [Rod:] Right because I have to put that on my notes you see and I [Ron:] I the car I had before I gave up the company car was a Mercedes Sports S L [Rod:] Oh right. [Ron:] But I'm not to obviously going to buy a Mercedes Sports S L necessarily at this stage. [Rod:] Yes. All we all we say we need [Ron:] Is a reasonable [Rod:] I a bit worried about my pen. Okay yeah. Erm right well when you've got on your form here on your er you need to give a couple of week's notice. [Ron:] Well what what I'm looking for there Rod obviously is a response to this letter I have sent to. If they don't respond to me in the next forty eight hours I'm going to send them a second letter er tel. Basically what I am doing is I want them to reply. I have only written the truth in my letter to them. They have got to respond to it. [Rod:] All right. [Ron:] Er and if [Rod:] I mean what happens if they they give you everything you want and er [Ron:] No. No I will not want for this company again. [Rod:] All right. [Ron:] I am out of. Doesn't matter what [Rod:] Well the way you've approached it there I guess you're not going to be er sales director [Ron:] It's not it's not the point of the money it's the fact is that they've lied to me erm and really I want em. What actually happened was my a friend of mine or really was a friend of mine for a short time, he he was in the company when I joined, and er after two months he told me he was leaving. And I said why are you leaving? Because I hadn't experienced all this [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] and he's Ron you're going to experience a lot of things that you're not going be happy about he says but I'll let you find out for yourself. [Rod:] Well may be you shouldn't have done if he was a [LAUGHTER] friend []. [Ron:] So he left. Suddenly he got another job in the golf industry and he left. And when he he was told to bring in his car the next day and his company stock. He says no problem. He went down to his car and down to his company stock and he says now what the money's due to me you'll get them in the post. And he says they told him to get out the building [Rod:] Mhm. [Ron:] and give him a rough time and he was the longest serving rep with. [Rod:] Well of course I mean the the point there is you get you get your money first before you hand over your car and the stock. [Ron:] Right. Now this is what happened. They sent him away and he's waited four months and he has not had a penny. He's written to them numerous times and they say what money. [Rod:] All right. [Ron:] So he is now in a position he can either take them to court or he's forgetting it. Because he's still in the golf industry he's forgetting it. Now it's something like eighteen hundred pounds. Now what I want to do is I want them to respond first. If they don't respond I will say the next letter will be, okay I am now resigning and your car and your stock won't be returned to you er but I'm holding them in lieu. [Rod:] Yes okay [Ron:] towards money due to me. [Rod:] What but what what we're talking about timing here because we won't we won't er we won't for ever and ever you see. [Ron:] Okay. Can I say definite I'd be quite happy to start within the next four weeks. Er four weeks from now. Or [Rod:] Well [Ron:] is that too far away? [Rod:] Well let me just er just check on when the [Ron:] the course is. [Rod:] the course is.... [Ron:] Well let's say I'd be ready for your for your next course if it's not till. [Rod:] Okay well there's a course running next week so we know that's out. The next one is the fourteenth of February. [Ron:] Right. I'd be happy going the fourteenth of February. [Rod:] Okay but that if you delay it's two weeks. Because they're held every two weeks here, whereas the rest of the companies are every week. [Ron:] So you get the fourteenth and then the following one is the twenty eighth February? [Rod:] Yes. [Ron:] And this is now well. Well can I say can I say definitely Rod I will I will go on if accepted on the twenty eighth of February. Can I say that for definite? [Rod:] All right. Now [Ron:] Just in case they hold me to a four week [Rod:] I can't see it. [Ron:] I can't see it myself. [Rod:] I would be happier to do twenty eighth and bring you back [Ron:] Yes. [Rod:] rather than the fourteenth. [Ron:] Can I say [Rod:] We'll give you the fourteenth and the twenty eighth the company would be concerned. [Ron:] Well let's say the twenty eighth and if I can get into fourteenth [Rod:] Now we provide all this information on trust. I can tell you right now that there are plenty of indi I I'm I'm going to say this up front, there are plenty of individuals who've taken the information away and tried to do it themselves. I I say it to all whoever comes in here and they're [Ron:] Erm [Rod:] there're in there're in there're in [Ron:] Can I say something to that question. Er a person's always as good as the team behind him [Rod:] Right. [Ron:] and you need a team. To do this properly you need a team. [Rod:] Oh absolutely. [Ron:] And I'm quite happy to earn the money that you offered or which is [Rod:] Okay [Ron:] earnable. [Rod:] Oh very earnable. [Ron:] Yes. Well I'm I'm happy with that. [Rod:] Right well let's er let me get this out of the way so I don't hand back, that's all yours to take away all right? Okay now there's some information for you to just er... I really do need a pen and I don't know where I've left it. Today's date is the [Ron:] Twenty fifth. [Rod:] twenty fifth.... Now the Monday the twenty eighth of February... now on Friday... Friday the twenty fifth you will need to phone in okay. If you read this end to end Ron I'd be very grateful but let me just point out to you we've agreed twenty eighth, if you bring it forward great. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Erm if you you will not be able to put it back after that date. They they'll they'll er consider that you're not interested. On the twenty fifth please phone in just to firm up everything. Your training programme if you just er look at read this okay. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Read right the way through all this and it will tell you exactly what will be needed. And er the Fern or the hotel is there. [Ron:] Okay. I take it you book me into that hotel. [Rod:] Well if you read that it'll tell you exactly what will happen. Erm we will pay we will pick up the tab for your hotel. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] All right? And we will pay all your travel costs there and back. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] I just need you to sign there's a copy here for your info just need you to sign to say that you understand that.... Want your pen back now don't you? [LAUGHTER] I'll have to go and get a pen []. [Ron:] I'll leave you this one. [Rod:] No no it's all right. I know now where I've got one.... [Ron:] Now I am my birth is Ronald but I am know [Rod:] As Ron. [Ron:] and always has been by Ron. [Rod:] Okay. We've got Ron down here you see.... [Ron:] I don't like the name Ronald.... [Rod:] Okay that's your copy.... [Ron:] Right Rod thank you for the opportunity. [Rod:] Okay well I've got one other thing to do... and that is to take a photograph. Okay you moved out of my I can only do four feet on this one so er [Ron:] Right okay. [Rod:] Right. You're allowed to smile. [noise of camera] Great thank you. [Ron:] Can you send me a copy of that? [Rod:] Er all this will be confirmed in writing. No you won't want a copy of that photograph let me tell you. Er it'll all be confirmed in writing and if come forward to the fourteenth they'll love that. [Ron:] Erm right so what you're saying to me then basically is that er as long as my references are acceptable [Rod:] Yep [Ron:] and etcetera er I can be on that course? [Rod:] Yes. We've we we put that in writing, subject to satisfactory references erm er we will look forward to seeing you on the twenty eighth. [Ron:] What's your position Rod? What's your position in [Rod:] I'm recruitment officer. [Ron:] For the the group? [Rod:] Yep. [Ron:] Well it was a pleasure meeting you. [Rod:] And you. [Ron:] Okay. [Rod:] Enjoyed er our discussions and er we'll take it from there. [Ron:] Okay thanks Rod. [Rod:] Thanks very much. [Ron:] Okay good bye. [Rod:] Ta sorry I had to drag you out here on this weather.

[speaker001:] Good this is an interview with Douglas from Blackwood part of Motherwell. Is it [Douglas:] Well yes the postcode's Motherwell Blackwood's er just south of Hamilton about four miles south of Hamilton two miles north of Lesmahagow. Er so it's just just on the M seventy four. [Rod:] Just. Is it Lesmahagow is it? Erm [Douglas:] It is Lesmahagow. [Rod:] I just wondered how that was re erm er er pronounced. Now on my er you and I spoke didn't we er Douglas? [Douglas:] Yes we did. [Rod:] I've got circled circled good voice here. [Douglas:] Well I am used to the telephone. [Rod:] Okay. [Douglas:] Yes yes. [Rod:] Erm you're now you're not doing anything at the moment, we we agreed it was resting. Erm sales and computers Mar you were with Martin's? [Douglas:] Retail Group yeah yeah. [Rod:] Thank you. Right now if you've got your application form, you've got a C V there as well haven't you? [Douglas:] Yes I have. [Rod:] Good that's great. [Douglas:] Application form [Rod:] Good. [Douglas:] C V. [Rod:] I'm having a quick read through this and I'll I'll ask questions at the same time. Where we what we have over on that table Douglas is a representation of er all the products and the and the compa companies that we market our products through [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] ranging from estate agents, and there are two on the end here from er both products are involved with estate agents, medical practices area health authorities, schools universities and colleges up in the top right there and the obvious ones down in the er [LAUGHTER] corner there []. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] And I'll ask questions as we as you're doing that erm [Douglas:] No problem. [Rod:] Okay.... This is going to be more or less in line with what erm you told me on the phone anyway isn't it? [Douglas:] I certainly hope so yeah. [Rod:] Yeah. Well I can only make much notes [LAUGHTER] as my hand will allow me to []. They still use terms like Lanarkshire and Dumfrieshire up here don't they? It's like us down in the in England using the old county names some times. [Douglas:] Absolutely yeah. Strathclyde covers such a oh it's a huge area. [Rod:] Massive area isn't it? I mean in terms of population I think I somebody did er Strathclyde regional council used to be a client of mine when I was with Three M er well you know a client of my rep up here but er and they told me some time that I think a huge percentage of the whole of Scotland's population [Douglas:] Oh it's it's about fifty percent. [Rod:] Is it? [Douglas:] Of the Scottish population. [Rod:] Nearly half yeah. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] Then you get the Highland Region and it's [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Yes it's only a small percentage of such a huge chunk of land. [Rod:] Crazy yeah geographical. Yeah.... So if everything goes all right with what we discuss here today then er Douglas you can er you are available to start immediately in effect [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] Hope we can give you an opportunity. [Douglas:] Yes yes. [Rod:] Oh smashing okay. It's alw always very useful that er erm if we have to people have to ask us to wait around for them for five or six weeks or sometimes on a three monthly er er resignation thing it er [Douglas:] Yeah it er [Rod:] it tends to to elongate the whole process. In fact I would say that ninety five percent of the people we take on are er either resting as you are or self employed anyway. [Douglas:] Right right. I'm sure that er I'm not in an unusual position er having been made redundant twice on the trot. What I'm really looking for is er the option to take charge of my life myself. [Rod:] I I I think certainly erm you're you're just at the age, er did we discuss this magic forty plus [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] No we didn't. [] [Rod:] No no. It's one of the delightful, I've been recruiting for a long time and it's it's one of those erm delightful things to be able to say to people on the phone when they tell me they're fifty or fifty four to say that's not a problem. Because they're so used to getting rejection. I've also had people at forty plus telling me the same thing which is a nonsense. With all that [Douglas:] Yeah well what [Rod:] experience down the drain is it's crazy. [Douglas:] Yeah. Last last time I was er resting was er about sixteen months ago and er I actually applied and got pretty far down the line er for a position within Woolworths only to find that er when they stated that they wanted people between the ages of twenty eight and thirty five they did actually mean that. Er so regardless of the fact that er I was er well recommended and eminently suitable er for the job they wouldn't even let me go [Rod:] yeah [Douglas:] go for the the final interview. Er I was forty at the time so I was five [Rod:] Five years [Douglas:] Five years over. [Rod:] Yeah yeah. [Douglas:] Mm. [Rod:] I I think that er [Douglas:] It's disconcerting. [Rod:] I think companies well in fact B and Q erm recently announced that er not recently I mean in the last eighteen months they've started to have their er stores erm [Douglas:] It's actually long longer er [Rod:] Longer than that? [Douglas:] Yeah I mean I [Rod:] I think Macclesfield was one of the first er [Douglas:] That's right that was about five years ago. [Rod:] Is it that long ago? [Douglas:] Yes I was still there er when they the initiative [Rod:] They announced that. [Douglas:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Well I we used er used to live in Macclesfield and er of course you know it springs to mind when er but I didn't realize it was that long ago. It seems so recent. But I don't know whether that policy still prevails but [Douglas:] Erm I I think does but er I don't think it er became quite the successful initiative that er that they hoped it would be. I mean I do think there are limitations with er [Rod:] You still have to get good people in their fifties. [Douglas:] That's right that's right. You've still got to get good experienced people in their fifties and er whilst a lot of people have experience or a lot of experience er from their their previous working life it's not always easy to make the jump into [Rod:] face to face aspect isn't it? [Douglas:] Well it's but it's it's the modern shopping experience [Rod:] Oh ah you mean in other words you the fifty pluses are still [Douglas:] Well back in the days of the hardware stores. [Rod:] Yeah yes right. Yeah the corner shop and all the [Douglas:] And it's going to be difficult for er a lot of people to make that transition. [Rod:] Yep. [Douglas:] Er a lot of lot of people in the fifties sixties age group [Rod:] May not even agree with it I don't know. [Douglas:] Well they're still uncomfortable [Rod:] Yeah. [Douglas:] uncomfortable a bit uncertain and perhaps even a bit threatened. [Rod:] And a lot of them still haven't worked in large organizations [Douglas:] That's right. [Rod:] and erm B and Q or wha any of those retail shops may be er that box that they see on a on an estate now but er it is a huge organization. [Douglas:] Almost the opposite to of er what I'm looking at er coming from er being employed by larger companies to basically working for myself. [Rod:] Well erm take it from me that I've worked for for major American corporates and one major British corporate and er there is still something that you may miss all right. This is a little bit of advice. But I went erm self employed back in eighty eight. [Douglas:] Oh so it's not long ago is it? [Rod:] So it's not long ago. But er but I was at my late forties and er er there are still times that you you feel that that urge to be involved in the er meeting up with your mates every day or your colleagues and having a good chat about business. I believe and this is why I'm involved with I believe that you get the best of both worlds here. Because here you have an opportunity to go launch yourself onto a self employed erm platform and cannot provide a better platform for that and I would say that wouldn't I he's thinking. [Douglas:] Mm. [Rod:] But erm because I've been out there doing this and that's that was part of my if you like to come in to do the recruitment side of it, er I had to experience and I'm glad I did because there were one or two pre-judgements I had about advertising sales, as most people do, erm that I had to get wiped out of my erm my my system. And I was in my early fifties when everybody tells the world that it's it's harder to adapt and get er some of the traits out of your system. Er didn't take me too long to do that but certainly did about my my views on advertising. They've changed quite the opposite way because er I now know that it can be done and how important advertising is to the even to the local businesses. So you make er you know we've my I would have explained as much as I can on the phone exactly how we operate. [Douglas:] Sure. [Rod:] Douglas now your background here is mainly erm er retail face to face but I can also read into and what er this and what you told me on the phone that there's erm quote a lot of sales as well. [Douglas:] Absolutely. Er particularly my past experience with. Er I mean I was involved in direct and corporate selling. [Rod:] Right. [Douglas:] Albeit briefly er in that er twelve months with er with. Er I have had some successes to date. Er notably er a sale for a hundred and seventy systems. Er er in Yorkshire er and some [Rod:] That's not bad if you got Yorkshire people to part with their brass [LAUGHTER] for [] [Douglas:] Yeah but I'm a Scotsman er and Yorkshire [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Douglas:] Yorkshire people trust Scots [Rod:] They do don't they? Yeah yeah [Douglas:] much more than you know some from [mimicking] down south [] [Rod:] Yes that's right. Yeah. [Douglas:] Er it's but I don't really have any problems with with selling er I'm not hard sell er I don't believe in er stuffing things down people's throat. I mean if somebody says no that's fine. [Rod:] Okay. Well now [Douglas:] I don't have a problem with that. [Rod:] Good. That last point is quite im er quite important when it comes to selling advertising. I would have said to you on the phone we don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. So when we do the telesale er sale on the phone bit [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] erm you're likely to get plenty of no's. [Douglas:] Ah I understand that understand that. [Rod:] That doesn't mean to say that you'd have let them [LAUGHTER] necessarily [] get away with it on the spot but you you're still going to do a persuasive tact but in the end if they say no fine. [Douglas:] Sure. [Rod:] Because there are plenty of others waiting in the wings. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er okay well let let's er let me outline erm Douglas exactly what today's meeting's all about. I don't call these er interviews I call them discussions because they are self employed positions and er I seem them as a business opportunity rather than a job quote job. Erm one of the things that I like to emphasize er at this stage is that although it's self employed it is as close to being employed as you can possibly be with a company but then but still destined by your own efforts to earn earn the money. What I can tell you is that will provide the ultimate in backup for any self employed person that you cou I could ever wish to meet. We have an infrastructure that's been built up over twenty years so er and you've read our brochure and I hope it's it was as impressive to you as it is to most people. [Douglas:] It's a it's a very impressive er brochure very well laid out which er I would expect obviously from a from a publishing company. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. If they can't get that right then we ain't gonna [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] get most it right [] are we? [Douglas:] Yeah. But no I mean as I say some of the content was was was very interesting and er the concept is er well it's something that excites me. [Rod:] Remarkably simple yet it still needs an awful lot of erm individ er people teams of people back at head office backing you know know what I mean. It looks like a locally printed or erm product which a lot of local printers could print this there's [Douglas:] Sure. [Rod:] no doubt about that. But what they don't have is is that team of individuals throughout the U K funding something which is presented free to the client. [Douglas:] Which is going to be absolutely superb for the client. [Rod:] You imagine ima imagine going to these clien especially doctors they'd snap your hand off. [Douglas:] Well I can't imagine a doctor turn turning the offer down. [Rod:] Well he's used to getting free drugs er you know [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] samples and things like that. [Douglas:] That's right. [Rod:] Here's something that he by law has got to have. He's no option he's got to have something like this. [Douglas:] So rather than produce a simple double sided sheet or [Rod:] Aha. [Douglas:] whatever and that he can produce a quite easy. [Rod:] Quite entitled to produce something like that photocopied on his own photocopier. Providing those basic elements [Douglas:] But that would actually cost him more. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Er it would cost them [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] erm and certainly it would not have much retention. They could they'd have to keep cut back. Whereas these booklets for instance are certainly retained because they're a two year thing. [Douglas:] And he's had the size as well. [Rod:] Right. Okay what did you glean from the er brochure erm in the main? [Douglas:] In terms of? [Rod:] Oh just generally? [Douglas:] Very very innovative idea. [Rod:] Mm. [Douglas:] Er and er well it's not just one innovative idea er it's just innovative idea after idea er which is encouraging because it er means that the company is not resting on its laurels er having found an avenue and an opportunity they don't seem to be content just to sit expanding and developing that and doing nothing else. They do the expansion and the development but also looking at er other areas to move into. [Rod:] Well certainly er four years ago er four of those products weren't in existence. [Douglas:] That's yeah. [Rod:] And we have relied solely on estate agents up until that point. And this is not the end of the story. I believe in er three or four years time I will need a a table er twice the size of that for examples of the of of the material. Because there are plenty of other areas that this will we haven't even started on hotels yet. There are plenty of companies that do hotels bit itty bitty er [Douglas:] That's right. [Rod:] but er one of our major competitors has just gone out of business so we'll get a spin off from that both in both in estates er and in the hotel scene so [Douglas:] Mm. Why why has the competitor gone out of business? [Rod:] They don't have that in the infrastructure. They they don't they're not paying their reps. You see one of the thin well they call them reps sorry we call them consultants now. Erm one of the things we guaran well the guarantees er er several guarantees we give to our our self employed consultants and that is that we will pay all commissions earned the following week [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] we will pay them for a start, that's that's the that's the trouble with a lot other companies and er it wouldn't be professional of me to mention names, but let me tell you that er that's one thing we do make sure that people erm get their money when when they've earned it. Erm and secondly we guarantee continuity of work. Nobody sits at home unless they've asked to for two or three days. Nobody sits at home waiting for the next assignment. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] Erm particularly in the self employed capacity. If we were paying them a salary then of course it's up to us whether we have them at sitting at home doing nothing, they wouldn't they'd soon get bored with it. But when you're self employed it's very important to know that you're going to get [Douglas:] The opportunity. [Rod:] The opportunity. [Douglas:] Yeah mm. [Rod:] And that's what we provide. We provide a platform for people to earn substantial money erm you know the only guarantee we give you is that we will give you the opportunity. And quite quite honestly our top earners are top earners because they won't sit back and do one advertising deal a day and say, Hey aren't I clever. They will do two or three. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] Because in fact to do all of our assignments you probably only need to do an average of one a day. [Douglas:] I think you mentioned on the telephone now one per day gives you something like seven hundred and fifty pounds per week. [Rod:] Aha yep. The average cost of all our ads erm co er is six hundred pound average. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] All right? Whichever you know if you take the cost some cost twelve hundred pound for a full page others cost three hundred and fifty and some cost even two hundred and fifty pound for a small strip on the golf cards. So there's there is quite a variety of across all of our companies but on average it's six hundred pound and on average it's a six thousand pound assignment er er target. And if if we home in on that then certainly then that's a nice comfortable seven fifty to eight hundred pound a week. But there you are that's mister average. [Douglas:] Mhm. So what er [Rod:] Mister high-flier does a lot more than that. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] What percentage do you actually pay er to in in commission? [Rod:] In commission? Well the basic is thirty percent on all advertising sales. And then we er we'll talk in a bit more detail depending on which company you and I decide that er you know once we decide in fact that is for you. [Douglas:] Sure sure. [Rod:] Erm and I suppose I should er really start into into that erm area now and that is the purpose behind this erm meeting is er three fold. Erm and once we've got one decision out the way the other two are fairly simple and that is that you and I agree that is is is the is the right time er right place and and time for you to launch yourself em employed er aspect. Erm [clears throat] certainly most people will agree that you'll earn far more money as a self employed and commission only [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] because salary company car and all that is only one another form of commission anyway. And that can be taken away from you very quickly. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] Whereas you could choose to take this away [LAUGHTER] if you want []. [Douglas:] That's right. I mean the d d difficulty I've got er is I'm sure the same as you had er about five six years ago [Rod:] Mhm? [Douglas:] is is just actually making the step. [Rod:] Oh sure. [Douglas:] After twenty odd years of being er a paid employee, albeit a very probably because it's I have been a very [LAUGHTER] well paid employee []. [Rod:] Yes yes. [Douglas:] It's a it's a difficult jump to make. [Rod:] Yes. [Douglas:] Er but I'm pretty certain [Rod:] Well you must have heard enough on the phone erm and there and there's no bull which I gave you [Douglas:] Oh I'm intrigued [Rod:] and and seen that. [Douglas:] I'm intrigued by it. Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Erm and if it's not it's er I'm not going to deny the fact that some people say you know this has been good for me for the last eighteen months erm I'm er I'm used to being self employed I'm going to stay that way but I'm looking at other avenues. But what I hope what we hope of course is that some people give us a real good try. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er because I don't believe this company er could be matched in what it can give er to the individual. Anyway if we dec if you and I decide that er is er is for you er the other two decisions today i er are as follows. Erm we decide which company or which environment which environment you feel you might feel most comfortable within. And the third one is when. And I have to say that we give our commitment very quickly and we would like to think that people also give erm their commitment. So once we've decided which company you'll work within I can come I can provide you with a training course immediately. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] And we ac we actually look for that sort of commitment too. [Douglas:] Okay. I do I do have three or four interviews lined up and obviously I would have having been afforded the opportunity of of the interviews I would like to follow up. Now these interviews are between now and the end of next week. [Rod:] Fine. Well what I would what I would do erm I would rather have a commitment for a date to start when you go out of here and if you say if you've got if you've got something that comes up then fine. Then we part. Right then what I what I want want really is is something fixed [phone rings] [Douglas:] Okay understand Rod. [Rod:] All right? If you decide that you know you've got something better or or alternative fine. Hello. It is Rod yes.... Yes.... Mhm.... That's... [LAUGHTER] What you want. []... Mhm.... Yep.... Okay fine. Well you know at least you've er had the courtesy to phone which is a lot of people don't. That was one o'clock wasn't it? Okay thanks for your call and good luck. Bye. [Douglas:] You've had few a few callers today Rod yeah? [Rod:] Mm? [Douglas:] You've had a few callers. [Rod:] One or two actually. That's that's not bad. It's it's the people who don't turn up always amaze me. They they [Douglas:] Don't turn up and don't call. [Rod:] Oh yeah. There must be plenty of work out there I always think. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] I can understand er I mean we had some calls off er last week mainly because erm we we took we'd spoken to those people before Christmas and we do expect people to to drop out. But I still ex I still out of courtesy expect people to phone but may be I'm old fashioned. [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] No no I mean it's er it it it is only polite isn't it to to do that er [Rod:] Yes sure. [Douglas:] you're supposed to be [Rod:] So to get back to what we say er yeah I like to fix a date and if people phone up and say well look I've I've got something else or I've changed my mind I would rather have that than to have lots of paper work on my desk that just says may be or may be not. [Douglas:] Okay. [Rod:] Okay? [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm now you've had a chance first of all I after our chat er par particularly on the phone and I make notes of people who er I think come well across on the phone because you know how important that is to us. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] Er we sell the whole concept on the phone er but we also have the luxury of face to face. Er which a lot of telephone sales people in whatever they're doing don't. Particularly the advertising stuck in a local newspaper office phoning all the businesses under the sun. They've never seen the people they phone them every week saying do you want a fifty pound advert in a paper which is dumped the next day. So it's gone. Whereas here we're we're selling a erm a very much more prestigious item and also a much more long term er commitment on both sides. And I don't seeing any problem at all in you being able to come over well on the phone which is the important thing for us. Looking at the environments where do you think you would feel most comfortable? Now I that's a luxury I have to say that most recruiting people do not get. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Cert certainly the the opportunity does appear to be er huge in the the practices the medical practices. Er having said that er some of the newer opportunities must have er a lot of oh catching up to do if you like er to to the levels of the estate agents and to a lesser extent the doctors surgeries. [Rod:] Well the estate agent er area has been around now for twenty years so they're rather used to us in that. We we're we are market leaders in that we are very well known by estate er estate agent companies and er and of course er advertisers. I mean the new areas of course for us er and I still count the medical practices as a new area although it's been for four years [Douglas:] Sure sure. [Rod:] we're well into erm I suppose we must be approaching somewhere in the region of two thousand surgeries out of fifteen thousand that are available to us. [Douglas:] So there's still a huge [Rod:] But we also are now in resales of course. Cos every two years they're resold. So the first two or three hundred we did in the first year have now been resold twice. [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] Because it's four it's nearly five years on. The universities er and schools er is probably the next well it is it's the next major growth area. We're we're just about to mail may be it's gone out now, six thousand universities and colleges throughout the U K. And state schools are as interested that product as independents. [Douglas:] Much more so nowadays I would have thought. [Rod:] Much more. Well they've got to get bums on seats you see. [Douglas:] That's right. [Rod:] It's a case of parents choice. So who do we er home in on? All of those er folders will go out to the parents. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] And as soon as the parent opens up and or they're moving, and or they're moving into the area, there's the advertising for them. [Douglas:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] And so there's prestige in going into the school. And of course our most recent acquisition is the golf club company. Erm and that's another. So so really you've got er I was out on the medical practices so I know how successful that can be. And the other thing of course about medical practices is there's no limit on the amount of advertising you're selling to. Whereas all the others have specific slots. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] So once you've done it you can't sell any more even though there are two or three people in the wings saying can I go into it. [Douglas:] yeah yeah. [Rod:] Erm you just have to hope you can pass it on to er er the next assignment you're doing. [Douglas:] Okay let's go [Rod:] Which you [Douglas:] let's go for medical practices. [Rod:] Okay. Right because certainly er this this is er wherever you go in the country there are going to be medical practices and schools, golf clubs start to get restr more restricted and estate agents strangely enough still are widely spread up in Scotland here. Okay well what we'll do is home in on that. And what what what you have here... what I I you'll get to take this away of course. This is an information pack which will tell you exactly what we do on medical practices. First of all can I say that er remind you that there's no responsibility on your be on your part to actually go round surgeries saying do you want our product. [Douglas:] No I understand that. And that's that's one of the main attractions to be honest. [Rod:] Okay [LAUGHTER] yeah []. Er we we have warmed it up as much I would have said this on the phone, we've warmed it up as much as we possibly can. Erm and our marketing executive who goes round signing the surgery up leaves a certain amount of information er and particularly these erm a sheet si similar to this with er we ask the practice to sit down and compile a list of businesses. Erm and this of course can constitute an opportunity to do the whole of the assignment from. However let's get into the real world and realize that er that medical people are not the best marketeers in the world. Erm they will leave it to their practice manager and the practice manager will do his or her her best to list out as many businesses which with they have links or are local. Most important thing when you receive this is on on day one of the assignment er Douglas is to not just accept that list as it is. You need to sit down with the practice manager or whomever and say right now you've listed all these, why, what's peculiar about what's particular and peculiar about these that you should say that this is a good opportunity. And the more information you get about those businesses the easier it's going to be for you to er to convey to them you know a lot you've done your research on them. [Douglas:] Understand. [Rod:] Temptation is to get on to the phone immediately [Douglas:] Straight away. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] straight [] and erm a lot of people make that, very experienced sales people still make that mistake cost they're not used to it. When you arrive at the assignment there's an envelope waiting which will contain that list. Right now that that the rea other reason for qualifying that is the list may be six to nine months old. So it might not have all the latest [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] one or two companies may have gone as we know by the by as it were. [Douglas:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] But the er information from the for you and the doctors are included includ into the envelope er with things like such as that. That tells the erm the the exactly what you're doing there. Now some of the staff may not be aware that you're they're having a medical practice booklet brought together. That allows them to read in comfort exactly what you're what you're gonna be doing there. There's other information which will be shown to you on the on the er training school. And the training school's fully expensed. We have hold it at head office every week. All right there's one every week. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] And er [Douglas:] Typically la last for one week? [Rod:] Er it typically lasts for three days. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] Erm and on this side we send people out for two days before they come in to training so they are at least familiar with what what we do. So it's two days out in the field with one of our trainers or top people and then they come in for the three day course. So they're not coming stone cold. All right. But that's fully expensed at all times. Travel and hotel whatever okay? Here's a couple of er samples of books and we I'll refer to those erm during the next er three or four minutes. But what I need to show you is erm the sort of earning potential because that's quite important for you. But also the pricing. If I can just open those up and have a couple of samples of. Now we've kept it fairly simple on the on the medical practice side and we have three sizes and three sizes only. That's a full [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] a half and a quarter. Right? So four quarters will be er constitute a full page. When the sales er exec on marketing goes round to contract the surgery to take that product there are two things that are generated. First of all they discuss the number of booklets that we're going to produce [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] and that will be determined by the patient list. Right? So if you've got a big patient list fifteen thousand we do a three to one ratio because of course there're there're number [Douglas:] Number [Rod:] yeah the numbers game. So we will guarantee to print five thousand booklets per year. That's a guarantee. We can actually do unlimited publica erm print for them. But at least we guarantee that's the minimum. Whatever that figure is there will automatically internally produce a target figure that we want for that book. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] Now that target figure is identified the day you arrive at the erm at the surgery. On the documentation that you receive direct from head office. And that is a figure you just have to have fixed in your mind all right? It's it's not if you don't reach seven thousand pound it's not a a failure situation, it's just that's we would be very happy to have that because the following year which is when no expenses come up for you know no no production costs come from erm then er that's that's the sort of profit we need to calculate for the [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] second year. However on er on this particular product erm of course it's unlimited advertising sales. [blowing nose] Excuse me. Right. In fact we've recently had a fourteen thousand pound booklet and you can when you take this home work out yourself exactly what that generated in three weeks for the sales consultant. And you can see he was a very happy person. [Douglas:] I'm sure he would be yes. [Rod:] Couldn't do that on the other products because there's limited number of slots. However the assignment took a little bit longer than it er than if he'd been on the other product range. Okay. So having got that figure er fixed in my mind that's what we'd like to go for but erm and we pay thirty percent commission on all advertising sales, whatever you do however many you sell, you will get thirty percent commission and you will get it the following week, providing you do one or two things for us. I if I can ask you to home in on that five thousand pound figure, once you reach five thousand pound on any assignment you get another fifteen percent bonus. There's a small bonus there at four and a half but I ask people to fix in their mind [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] five thousand pound. So that anything over five thousand pound you get another fifteen percent in other words forty five percent commission. All bonuses are paid at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute. All your commissions are paid the following week but when it comes to bonuses we we there is a slight delay, two two may be two to three months. Erm and the prices are as follows. As I said there are just three sizes but I've got five five prices, I would just like to home in on those three. Thousand pound is a full page. We always launch into a thou erm a full page erm sell. All right? So when we get on the phone we always talk about full page. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] And the work downwards. If you work if you work on a quarter page at three ninety and cos remember you're telling all this on the phone. Unlike traditional sales where you wait until you get round there to tell them what the price is you have you have to er tell them what er the price on the phone. Those are the prices and we they are premium slots. That's a premium slot which would cost twelve hundred pounds. All this will be gone into a lot more detail on the training course. You have an allowance if you need it of ten percent on the spot. If if you really need it to get the deal. [Douglas:] To push a sale. [Rod:] Erm don't s you know if you're not a discount man forget that you you just have to say I'm I'm gonna use it if I need it. But if you are persistent Or a four thousand per that's the sort of thing. Now that's that I have to say is achievable in two weeks just the same. Because if you sold two or three full pages and may be four halves and a couple of quarters you have reached your seven thousand pound target. [Douglas:] Yeah I mean I'd gather that look at er [Rod:] Yeah. [Douglas:] at the prices. Yeah [Rod:] Yeah. [Douglas:] Yeah. It's you don't have to sell a lot if er you've got a couple of full pages and a couple halves. [Rod:] Er in fact I would probably think that erm having looked at some of the results recently I would think that that's going to be somewhere close to average now. And you er that's gonna fluctuate as well. If you go into central London around east er around the East End erm that may not be an assignment that will, you see that's me prejudging. It's probably gonna be a damn good book because of all the businesses wanting to get associated with the doctor. [Douglas:] Could well be. [Rod:] Cos you never know. One of the things I I I found it very difficult to start with I must admit is that to to prejudge that people would or would not go in. Now if I point out that it's in bold erm and it preempts a question that generally comes up and that is if we er we will pay thirty percent up to a hundred miles one way away from home and er if we had to send you, and it's a big if I have to say it's a big if in especially in the medical practice side, if we had to send you more than a hundred miles we will pay another five percent. However, our top earners are top earners because of two things. I may have mentioned one and that is that not satisfied with one deal a day [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] and also they ask for those thirty five percenters. And they are quite happy to put up with what I would term the inconvenience of going there and back each day [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] more than a hundred miles. I have to say I did my assignments I went there and back I didn't I didn't mess around with staying away. It was an extra cost but also I learned in the end like the top earners do er and I guess I was mister average because I was coming in to do this job not that one, erm I I decided or worked out that I could do two or three deals in a day between a certain hour. So I didn't travel during rush hour and I didn't travel back during rush hour. And these top earners have it to a tee. They will do it between eleven and three thirty. And they will have done their work. The company has no problem with that because you're you know if if you're doing the business you're happy because you're getting the commission. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] Okay well that that's in simple terms and you've got this to take away for you to study erm then that we we that's the that's the sort of earning potential you have and it's there [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] especially on this side. [Douglas:] And will certainly help pay the mortgage. [Rod:] Yes right good. Now we will pay all those commissions on the basis of you achieving er first of all the sale but also a minimum amount of paper work. And I have to say that this is the minimum I've ever seen for a sales person to have to do. But it has to be absolutely right. Er that which makes it as critical as as a lot of er paper work. It's critical to get it right because there are situations where if you don't get it right then they have to hold some commission back and that's a pity. [Douglas:] That's an excellent incentive to get it right. [Rod:] I made absolutely certain I never sent in a duff contract. Because it is it is very simple if you follow the guidelines and I'm gonna point out one or two things why it's essential that you do not make an appointment to go and see people unless they know everything up front. First of all the major documentation we've got is the contract and there we have six companies and we have the same contract for all six. Just the difference is the colour. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] All right. If you're colour blind then it's it's a pity. [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] May be it's good for you [] I don't know. Er no because if you have a hundred hundreds of these arriving on the er on the doorstep on Monday then you need to er know exactly which company they've got to go into. But they're all the same so that if you are er with which is the medical side and an opportunity arose for some other reason for you to transfer to another group we haven't got to retrain you. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] Because they all do the same thing. But some of the things you need to point out before you go round is that you do want a thirty five percent deposit of the first year's payment. [Douglas:] I take it a cheque is that acceptable? [Rod:] Er oh yes. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] Yes in fact that's the only way you should take it. Erm thirty five percent and you will have worked you will te you will be able to tell them that on the phone. Once you've agreed the price if that's a thousand pound or thousand pound page then you want thirty five percent of the first year's payment. And you have a little chart to help you do that. But if you haven't got one you make it up yourself. But the other thing that you have to er be erm very clear about is er on on the monetary side is if there are two signatories to the cheque, right? both of them need to have signed it. But the other important is that they both have to sign the banker's order. So you tell them about the thirty five percent you tell them about the banker's order that will need signing. How many signatures on the banker's order fine can you make sure mister Fred Smith is with you as well? [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] when it comes in. Cos you cannot if you left this with anybody you'd never see it again. You kept phoning back for it, oh I've lost it, it's gone through the system, tell you what scrub round it next time you're around I'll I'll go into the booklet. Erm and also we take take the second year's payment a year later. Now that's a good sales pitch because a lot of people think you've got to [Douglas:] Find all the money up front. [Rod:] Find all the money. So it's in effect three stages. Thirty five percent about two months later when when they get their proof okay we take the balance balance of the first year through that banker's order. We take the second year's payment a year later. So it's in a three stage payment in effect. Now [clears throat] if you get and this of course once again will be gone through in much more detail er on the training school. That will generate two out of the three things we want, that's the contract and the cheque all right? The third th the other thing is of course we need to know what they want in their ad. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] This is the form once again they're colour coded. This is the form we use to send the copy in either attached to this form or at least erm a basis of a design down here. Now we don't want our sales consultants to be graphic arts experts because we have right the way back in in head office [Douglas:] People who know how to do it properly yes. [Rod:] Loads of people doing it. We've got twenty year's experience thousands of ads on our on our records. Most of our advertisers have have been in something or other before. It's a very rare situation where they've never advertised. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. Erm if they haven't then you just get a few ideas, got a graphics pack and you say well is this the sort of thing you want, well this is what the er the builder did last time. [Douglas:] That's right you show them something [Rod:] You can show them samples. But in the main we will lift whatever they want if they've got something like that in existence if not we'll do it for them. And it's at no extra cost that's all built into the price. So they don't have to go to an advertising agency or a graphics designer to have it all drawn up we'll do that for them. And at proof stage is when we pay your bonuses. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] And that's because we've got the the balance of the first year's payment. And those are the three things get that right plus a compliment slip and a letter heading, because if we have to lift a logo if that if we had to lift that off er you know photocopy won't er photocopy won't do, so we we take a compliment slip or letter heading. This is of course the most important document. [Douglas:] Yeah. Ju ju just [Rod:] Yes any questions? [Douglas:] Well just an observation really. [Rod:] Aha. [Douglas:] If er I'm gonna be taking thirty five percent er up front [Rod:] Thirty percent thirty five percent if you earn more than a hundred [Douglas:] No no sorry [Rod:] Oh I beg your pardon the deposit cheque. [Douglas:] Yeah yeah. We've had that's that's the observation I was gonna make, that's er just so happens that that almost the amount that's gonna be turned round to me the following week that that [Rod:] Aren't we clever? [LAUGHTER] [Douglas:] Yeah very good. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Yes. Oh yeah we we if if it's if you're on a thirty percent and mo which most of them would be if you're on a thirty percent commission assignment then the other five percent just goes in the pot. If you're on a thirty five percent then we're covered. And our belief is that we've got money to pay you that's why we don't delay in paying you. [Douglas:] No no it's that's er [Rod:] Okay? [Douglas:] that's very reassuring. [Rod:] That's the point. Yes. Oh well that's fine er I mean Howard 's concept is absolutely brilliant erm and it ca it makes our assign our consultants very happy. We had seventy at the beginning of last year, I think I may have said on the phone, a hundred a sixty five right now. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] And we're going for three hundred this year. [Douglas:] Well that's another reason I'm sat here is the fact that er you know you've actually doubled it. [Rod:] Big growth. And this is the this is a typical example this is my la my last but one assignment last but one commission form, I would pick one of the good ones wouldn't I? Erm but this is a this is an average okay. The the reason the total down the bottom is cos of the bonus er element. But we we put down the I've crossed out position number it is size, erm er we took this from another sheet [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] okay? Erm and we forgot to change it that's all. Each consultant has it's ow er his or her her own unique number, so does the assignment, we list the position, the advertiser's name in brief, the practice we're working at and the town. What I've just described is a full and complete contract. There are organizations like BUPA hospitals and some others erm who have special arrangements with us where we don't need a deposit cheque and we don't need a banker's order but we do need an official order from the hospital. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] That replaces those two things. You still get your commission. You know in full. Unless they've changed it but I think it is. There's the erm er the value of the contract per year, there's a first year you know it's just the the co cost of the ad thirty percent that's what the commission was worth and it's nice to come out with a signature for a erm and this was a charity one so they got it slightly less, erm er and know that you've just earned yourself that much. That's [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] why you know dealer day like that was we're we'd be quite happy about. This figure here is in effect what we would should be looking for per week. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] If we if we home in on something like that two eight three thousand then we're going to be earn earning that much for ourselves. Now I mentioned bonuses paid at proof stage. As soon as an assignment has been fully proofed it goes on to a list which is published every two months to all of the sales execs and you just look out for your number, all right? and you've got your own personal records of course, if you know you've earned bonus then that's where to claim it. I emphasize the word claim because that's exactly what it I I mean. It's not paid automatic because some people, well first of all we don't know the precise dates when the proof is going to go out and also some people like to leave it there. To pay tax, pay holidays, [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] buy a new car. Some guy took his er bonuses after two years recently and I think he got somewhere in the region of six thousand pound. Not a bad lump. Safe as houses, you don't forfeit it by not claiming it it's just you you know you you as and when you need it. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] And all that all that, yes? all that documentation if you get it in there by Monday we pay all the money int straight into your bank that week. [Douglas:] Can I can I on that particular one er you the value of the contract's two eight six O, so how many er brochures would er publish? Based on that because it falls below the [Rod:] No that's one week. All right? That's one week's [Douglas:] Oh that wasn't the complete [Rod:] No no no. No that's just one week assignment. [Douglas:] Sorry. [Rod:] I may have put three in of those for one assignment. [Douglas:] Mm. That's a nice week. [Rod:] It's a nice week. But that's an average week you see for a lot of people. You imagine what the guy was putting down for his fourteen thousand pound booklet.... [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] He had twenty nine different categories of advertising. That's not bad it's an all time record. And providing all that document done let's face it it is simple providing you make sure that people er the advertiser knows what you're what you're looking for before you go round there then there shouldn't shouldn't be too much problem. [Douglas:] No that's okay admin doesn't hold any terrors for me. [Rod:] Well you have to do it. You you see the important thing is that that contract has to be done in front of the and so does the copy, so does the cheque so they're all done on the spot. There's not anything waiting for you to get home to. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] You can't change you can't change anything on there because the guy's signed it. So once you've done that in front that's that out the way, the copy out of the way. You may have to wait for one or two things but you know like like copy sometimes but I didn't used to send them s erm er contracts in unless they had everything. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] I was prepared to go back and copy. As long as you've got that contract and that deposit cheque that's the crunch. Well there you go. Of interest? [Douglas:] Yep yep. It's er [Rod:] Okay well I know I know you said that you were looking at one or two other things and quite honestly I would expect you to be. Erm [Douglas:] Er you one must be reminded that er it's only three weeks today from when I was made redundant [Rod:] Sure. [Douglas:] so er and I've er been pursuing all sort of avenues. Not not just self employed but obviously the the traditional route er as as well. Er I mean I've written off er cold er letters to [Rod:] Are you doing networking really networking you see [Douglas:] Well marketing marketing itself. [Rod:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Douglas:] Yeah yeah. Er as well as applying for er vacancies that appear in newspapers as well as er registering myself with er agencies with whom I've been in contact [Rod:] Okay. [Douglas:] er within the past. Er an obviously that's generated a number of appointments and some interest at this stage. Er and er well I look to to myself and my family to to make sure that er I don't just jump without fully reviewing the opportunity's that are available for me. [Rod:] Well I I would have said on the phone that under normal circumstances if you're salaried or have been salaried I don't talk people into this unless they're a certain age. Anybody over forty I say it is a legitimate time to talk to people about self employment. Now erm in the main the most the people who go and talk, if they talk genuinely to their their other half or I always say partner instead of, nowadays that's politically correct I think, erm then they so they're they're a lot of the times they're talked out of it. I it's it's a pity to be talked out of out of what we've got but er it it it's a case, sorry I say talked out of it it's discussions and erm you have to say that most er ladies look at saying well now what can you promise me every week [Douglas:] Mm mm. [Rod:] aspect. However, I don't think you're gonna get a better commission only er package from whatever direction that this. [Douglas:] Well I mean obviously I'm the obvious alternative is er financial planning to to [Rod:] Financial services? [Douglas:] Financial services financial planning yeah. [Rod:] Let me tell you that's the graveyard at the moment. [Douglas:] Yeah well it er it may well be. [Rod:] Eighty five percent turnround in staff. That's not my figures that's the financial services figures. [Douglas:] It it's obviously er er route that I've looked at but this certainly appeals to me a damn sight more than er that. I mean I know ju a simple little thing but er telephone calls will be made from the practice. Yeah? [Rod:] Mhm yep. No cost at home. [Douglas:] Which is er it's it's a concern. [Rod:] You're on the move every three every three weeks you get to know another group of people. [Douglas:] Mm. You don't have to don't have to procure my own leads. [Rod:] No. All you have to do provide is your own car. [Douglas:] It's okay about that. [Rod:] You've got that. [Douglas:] Yeah got that done that with a bit of [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Well as long as you've got a car I don't want to hear that. [LAUGHTER] As long as you've got a car. [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] Er you cannot [Douglas:] No I mean I [Rod:] do [Douglas:] One of these guys has always had a company car. Er my company car er has gone back and er well until I find out where I'm gonna end up I'm not gonna dive in and purchase another car just er for my [Rod:] No. [Douglas:] exclusive use. [Rod:] No we we provide a training course er Douglas so erm all right. What I'd like to agree on though is at least a date [Douglas:] Okay. [Rod:] when providing you know depending on what else happens that I can say that here's a date and that individual will start at. It er we are expecting him for the course on that date. [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] If we go you know. Let me just explain exactly what we do. Erm the training course er as I said two days er I'll count it as a full training course. Training course er involves two days out in the field, told you [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] that. Er that's not necessarily in Scotland it could be somewhere else but we er pay you travelling and your and your hotel. [Douglas:] Understood. [Rod:] All right. Up to a certain limit. Erm if you stay in the er Imperial Hotel every er time you go out that's [LAUGHTER] up to you []. Erm and then three days in head office okay. Now you said you you had a number of other er options that you were looking at which I understand. [Douglas:] Yes. [Rod:] And you said that by the end of next week you will you will have done those and know whether you want them and whether the companies probably yes? [Douglas:] Basically yes. [Rod:] Okay. So if we're looking at... that being the week ending oh sorry week commencing thirty first of January is next week all right? [Douglas:] Mhm. [Rod:] If we looked at erm the week commencing seventh of February as being the two days out that would be from the ninth er that would be the tenth and the eleventh of February. Would that be er be about just over two weeks? [Douglas:] So the two day two days out and then the following week on the [Rod:] Yes. [Douglas:] Yes [bang] I'll go for that. [Rod:] Oops. Right? Okay so that's in effect the tenth isn't it. We've just changed some of the had to have some of my little notes down there. Yes Thursday the tenth of February. [Douglas:] So my two days are the tenth [Rod:] That's right. [Douglas:] and eleventh. [Rod:] Yeah I'll drop all this down for you so you don't need to make any notes. Thursday the tenth of February... on Wednesday the ninth, now this is all on the assumption that everything is going for us [Douglas:] Right. [Rod:] rather than what you're what other options you have. I would have expected you to be doing that. If I can ask you to read through this for me before you and it will tell you exactly what will happen during your training [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] in head office and out in the field. [Douglas:] Okay. [Rod:] The course erm temporarily is being held in the Grand Hotel in while we er extend our training school because we're doing two more rooms on to the training school. [Douglas:] There will obviously be the opportunity to catch sight of head office yeah? [Rod:] Oh yes. In fact if you'll if you look in here you you get a it starts off with a tour of er head office and all our facilities there. And now accommodation has been provisionally reserved for you for that date. What I need you to do is to phone the hotel direct and confirm you're arriving. [Douglas:] No problem. [Rod:] Right? If you read all this it will tell you exactly. There's a map and the Grand is just about there. [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] Somewhere around there. That's an er an expenses form and you know bring this information with you to the in-house course, the three days in-house erm because they'll ask you for that at the end of. Okay? If I can ask you to read that [Douglas:] Yep. [Rod:] at some time. Now we pay we pick up the tab at the Grand Hotel for those three days in-house. Now if we have to send you out fur you know er with a trainer or top person who where you need to stay away we will pay. We will always pay your travel costs whichever you know whichever er er second of the training course you're on. Erm we will pay bed breakfast and evening meal up to thirty pound a night and I have to say the trainers will always know of some good deals. [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] All right? [] That was only if on that Thur on that Mon Thursday and Friday if you have to stay away on the Wednesday night and the Thursday night then we cover that. [Douglas:] Okay. [Rod:] The rest of it's picked up by us anyway. Can I ask you just to sign that to say you know that and there's a copy here for you.... Yes please print your name. I wouldn't have anywhere near that signature. [Douglas:] Oh it's in there somewhere. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] It's in there somewhere. [] [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] It's years of practice. [Rod:] Yeah it's amazing you know I was watching my son my son when he was about eleven or twelve practising his signature. And it was it was so nicely written I I saw it the other day it was no difference. [Douglas:] Read both words. [Rod:] Oh and mine mine is very readable. Okay. So I just put up there... Right I've got everything there. I just need your photograph er Douglas for security. This is becoming quite popular this method now. A lot of clients that I had when [Douglas:] Is it polaroid? [Rod:] Yes yes. It's on the on the spot thing. We do we do allow people [Douglas:] Tie straight? [Rod:] Tie's straight yes you you can smile [noise of camera] good. Sometimes er when especially the the er older element have been so delighted that we've offered them an opportunity because everybody else has said they're too old and after all this they're getting really excited want to come and then they look so glum in the photographs [Douglas:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] and I say well come on I said you can you can smile you know. [Douglas:] Was it just me that was excited you said. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] That's right yeah. [] Yeah. All this will be confirmed in writing to you Douglas. [Douglas:] Sure. [Rod:] Obviously I'd be delighted if you choose to come this direction but I understand of course that you have other options to look at. [Douglas:] Yeah. What one question I should have asked [Rod:] Ask ask any [Douglas:] When er when we were on the subject of er the the labour turnover er in the insurance industry, what is the turnover in? [Rod:] Well er if you looked at the I'll give you one or two averages and and I have to say that these are figures that are a mixture of what we know from the industry and what we what we know from our own company. The current financial services turnover and this has this has been published in the Financial Times and the Telegraph is somewhere in the region of between eight five and ninety percent. Now that is massive because of all the new er erm it they made it very difficult for independents to survive. [Douglas:] Oh yes with er [Rod:] Yeah absolutely. [Douglas:] and so forth. [Rod:] And also the the elongated period where they can claw back commission from you. That's been a disaster for people. Two to four years after you left for instance the Pru or one or two other companies they can still claw back commission if somebody cancels a life [Douglas:] Yeah. [Rod:] that's part of the contract. Now I certainly would never sign anything that erm required me to do that. Er and then the direct sales averages somewhere around sixty percent. Now we're going to be somewhere between forty and forty five percent. So in that sense we're below average. [Douglas:] It's not bad. [Rod:] And that's not bad. When you consider [Douglas:] No it's not bad in in my my sort of retail career and that somewhere between thirty and thirty five [Rod:] Oh well [Douglas:] er was was the norm [Rod:] Yes. [Douglas:] er in managerial positions. [Rod:] Yes yes. [Douglas:] In assistants particularly with part time you're talking of the order of fifty to fifty five percent. [Rod:] Yeah we we we're we're we wouldn't have retained those out of a hundred and er what is it a hundred and ten people. Er was it ninety five people er over the last year we retained. You know coming from seventy to hundred a sixty five in fact when had their sales meeting last Friday it was observed that the sales force in the er which were gathered which we do every two months in the in the major suite the training suite er conference suite at head office er that was the total number of sales execs we had in January the previous year. Whereas that was one group that had the same number in fact more than that we had ninety people there. That's how we've grown and partic and particularly. [Douglas:] I take it a number of er execs have been with the company for a [Rod:] Yes. [Douglas:] a similar number of years as yourself. [Rod:] Yes top earners. Yeah top earners. And even even sorry even some of the mister averages or miss there are some very successful ladies. In fact a lady picked up all awards er last week last Friday she cleared almost cleared the floor she was so good. Okay Douglas all that will be in writing to you. [Douglas:] All right then. [Rod:] Look forward to you erm making a decision to come with us but er that's in your hands. [Douglas:] Okay thanks very much. [Rod:] We can certainly offer you everything you need on a self employed basis. [Douglas:] It certainly does sound very attractive to to me Rod. [Rod:] Good. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Interview with Patrick. Good erm Patrick you've got all the information did you? [Patrick:] Yes I did. [Rod:] What did you think of the brochure? [Patrick:] It's very comprehensive actually. Nice quality erm that's [Rod:] Great thanks very much. Erm while I'm having a look through this er Patrick erm over there on the table we have a selection of the product er [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] printed product that we market across the six companies. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm they won't all have been mentioned in in the brochure because we've introduced one or two in the last erm year or so. While you're looking through that er I mean I mean I'm gonna ask some questions but there's a chance to have a look through... Oh spent a bit of time er in the sunshine aye? [Patrick:] Yes just a bit.... Oh well most of it was indoors actually. [Rod:] In terms of er marketing you say you've got timeshare and marketing here but you you didn't actually to the selling then? [Patrick:] Well I did selling side of it but er what resorts tend to do is they get a marketing company in to sell a particular resort and [Rod:] Oh right okay. [Patrick:] then once the resort's sold the marketing company will go to another resort. [Rod:] Okay. [Patrick:] It's from there. [Rod:] You didn't seem to have very much luck with these last two did you? [Patrick:] No [LAUGHTER]. Erm unfortunately they didn't live up to the expectations. I mean er take the [Rod:] Yeah.... Er depending on how today's discussions go we'll need a couple of erm references on er [Patrick:] Yes I [Rod:] We say professional people but erm we're we're talking about people who er are in a profession. It's er we solicitors accountants well we that just gives you some feel for it. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Er [Patrick:] I could have put my doctor down but he's down in London so I'm in the process of changing doctors again. [Rod:] Oh are you right. Did you live down there at one time? [Patrick:] I lived down there for about five years. [Rod:] Yeah right.... Now you spoke to my colleague er John Patrick erm and he would I hope have mentioned how important it is to have a car. [Patrick:] Yes er [Rod:] You can't do this job without a car. [Patrick:] basically. Erm at the moment okay I've sold my my last car recently erm I am looking for another. At the moment I got access to two cars. My mother and my sister so it's not a problem in the short term. Er but obviously I I would need my own transport. [Rod:] Yeah er and er I'll be quite frank with you erm until I start talking to you in your background wouldn't come anywhere near what we want. And I'm surprised erm there there is no what I would quote traditional sales er experience. I don't count retail as sales experience I have to say. [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Okay yeah. [] I mean I understand [Rod:] No I would but I would have told you that on the phone. [Patrick:] Yeah. I understand why you would say that. [Rod:] And I I really can't count your timeshare marketing that's only for four months this year. So erm [door knock] excuse me. Turn this off a minute. So so there are there are a number of camps here I think that we have to get out the way before er [Patrick:] Okay. Well what I would say on the retail side of it, okay admittedly it's not field sales it's not cold calling [Rod:] Mm. [Patrick:] er people come to the store to buy a kitchen or a bedroom. But it's not the same type of sale as as shoe salesman in a [Rod:] I would go on with that. I will I will definitely give you that [LAUGHTER]. [Patrick:] You know so there is not only is the product design here it's er selling the kitchen but actually closing a sale when there's other various options on the market. You know there's there was Texas B and Q er Moben Kitchens that type of thing. [Rod:] Plus plus the er Kitchens Direct and people like that? [Patrick:] That's right. Certainly. [Rod:] Face to face that's the difference. Er face to face sales erm you know from John's conversation with you what we do. [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] That we close everything on the on the phone. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] There's no face to face in terms of selling. [Patrick:] Okay so there's no appointments [Rod:] No. [Patrick:] set up you know. [Rod:] The one thing about advertising er Patrick is that we tell them everything on the phone. You er when it comes to erm er whatever you are selling in tradi what I call traditional and retail sales, so that retail sales sometimes have a price tag up there. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] Er you can usually you still have to work out and measure what er what the kitchen needs or the bathroom needs [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] or whatever. Conservatories er double glazing all of those you can see you can legitimately sell the appointment on the phone. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] In advertising you tell them everything on the phone [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] because you can tell them the price the size what [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] we're going in. And in fact if you don't do that and you you get face to face like this with me and say well oh wait a minute you didn't tell me that on the phone last er or otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to see you. So there's lots of reasons to blow you out. That's the difference. However, erm you know you came back about the retail aspect of course and most of our traditional sales people have never had telephone experience in that sense. [Patrick:] Yes aha. [Rod:] So erm erm in effect your selling starts er well we won't count anything before that in er in nineteen eight six. [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] I will discount those timeshare marketing there's four months in that erm with two companies wouldn't count in terms of what I would call overall experience. [Patrick:] Okay. I mean it was invaluable in some sense but erm [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] It was experience [] especially for the reasons [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Rod:] Okay let's go back to what you say here. Why do you think you can make a success of a self employed direct sales job selling advertising. I don't think I can I know I can. If I can tell you that some of the the erm what I would call direct sales people have said they think they can sell advertising and are now in another direction or still resting [Patrick:] Mhm yes. [Rod:] what makes you think you can do that? As er you've not even come close to being involved in anything like it. [Patrick:] Well that's true. Erm but it comes down to basically believing in well [Rod:] Mm. [Patrick:] several areas. I mean first of all I would need to believe in the company the product and that the quality is saleable. [Rod:] Did you did you spot anything [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] in the brochure? [Patrick:] Erm well I mean there's you've definitely a professional approach. Er you're large company er over quite a probably quite a large market [Rod:] In in our own field you you could say so. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] You compare it with other [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] organizations of course twenty million pound turnover or twenty million pound company doesn't sound very much but it certainly is in its er [Patrick:] That's right even from [Rod:] In advertising. [Patrick:] Even from er the quality of the brochure I mean you can see you know I mean that's quite high level [Rod:] Mm. [Patrick:] er quality. Er on that on those terms. Now to sell that over the phone when you haven't got the brochures and to do is a difficult side of it. But given I I believe in the product and I believe in myself [Rod:] Mhm. [Patrick:] it's a it's a conveying of that belief. Erm okay it's it's a cold call if you like er terms so I mean there's no get out for me. There's a bridges are burnt if you like. [Rod:] Yeah. [Patrick:] Erm so in that end I've got to believe in myself or I won't sell it. [Rod:] Yes you're right. And I'll tell you right now that unless you listen to the people that have been doing it for twenty years, in other words you don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] advertising, because a lot of sales people join us and they won't listen to that they think they know better [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] and they fall flat on their face in the first week or so. Erm we will chase our tails. [Patrick:] Yep. [Rod:] So it's very important to get er over that. Erm I still have to come back in some ways Patrick to er this this no car situation. Er [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] I will I would say that if you had been speaking to me on the phone, and this is not a criticism of John it's just a an observation, you wouldn't be here. Because the one thing I do establish I tell people come and talk to me when you've got a car. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Because we've had we've spent an awful lot of erm money and time in taking people into the system who say they will have a car when [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] yes [] [Rod:] they come down for the course and they don't have one. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm and anybody who tells me that they're gonna get one and arrives by train at the course whatever their excuse I would be suspicious. [break in recording] Let me just explain where er what the erm options we have here today. Erm what the purpose of these discussion are. John would have heard enough of you on the phone to be convinced that it was a erm right for you to have a chat with, could [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] have been him if it had been in the south, with me. Erm he will not have asked that time honoured question do you have a car otherwise he knows what er [Patrick:] Sure. [Rod:] the difference would be. Erm but the the point about today's discu discussions I don't call them interviews because er it's a self employed situation. Now you're thirty three [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] Erm that's another thing that would may have persuaded me not to talk you into er self employed except you were already experiencing that I guess were you in timeshare? [Patrick:] Yes basically when you are self employed. [Rod:] You didn't you didn't have a basic... [Patrick:] No it was commission only. [Rod:] er salary? But up to that time up to last year you were [Patrick:] In a fairly secure job with erm you know [Rod:] Yeah what er [blowing nose] Excuse me. What makes you think that you will settle down at your age in self employed? [Patrick:] I think ultimately er you want to make any money in the world you've got to be erm Also er it's all very well saying right you've got the security of a basic wage and all the rest [Rod:] Yeah. [Patrick:] of it er but I'd rather be viewed on my own merits on my own worth er be willing to take a few risks in life erm and know that I've got the rewards at the end of it for making a success. Then I'm inclined to go for myself. Er well on on a this kind of level I mean [Rod:] Yes sure. [Patrick:] not not look at go for the customers and the deals I think and all that the backup. But ultimately if I don't go out there a do it no one else is gonna do it for me. It's not handed on a plate or anything. [Rod:] Sure. [Patrick:] Er but I've got the potential to make a lot more money as a self employed person. [Rod:] Okay well if you don't mind my I have to er because it does affect whether you're you're gonna be able to erm sometimes earn the right money. Erm your marital status is divorced. [Patrick:] Mhm yes. [Rod:] You have your kiddies there to look after you're going self employed, you're gonna have to really make sure you've got enough money I guess. [Patrick:] Okay that er [Rod:] Now I'm not going into er your that personal side of it but you understand how important that is for [Patrick:] Sure. [Rod:] er to make sure that we're giving you the right platform to earn money to to keep all of your er aspects going. [Patrick:] Oh that's fine. [Rod:] Erm that can make you of course more hungry. [LAUGHTER] [Patrick:] Yes that's what I was gonna say. [Rod:] Would I be right? [Patrick:] Yeah. I mean obviously er there's a drive that's an extra motivation. I've got to make that money for my kids. Yeah. Er I think any married person has got to be in the same situation and so [Rod:] Sure. Okay. More so if you er if if you're looking at [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] looking at doing this again by the way. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] [clears throat]. Okay Patrick. Erm three things we're gonna decide today whether you and I think that is gonna be the right platform for you. Okay? With the reservations that I have erm I'm I'm gonna have at the back of my mind all the time. Er and the other thing of course would be the er very important aspect of er whether I think you can come over on the telephone right. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] Although John really should have established that already so it wont be. Er once we decide whether that is the right situation for you or this is the right situation for you erm we then look at the options we have in which company that Patrick might feel most comfortable with. And the final aspects is when. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Er obviously you're immediately er available. [Patrick:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] So that doesn't present too much of a problem. Erm two things I have to protect here today. Is your self esteem and self confidence. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] In other words not putting you into an area I think you might fail miserably at. Sorry not fail not success at which is a [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Okay yeah. [] [Rod:] I don't like that other word. Erm and er secondly I have two thousand pounds worth of company's money. Because that's what it costs to take a person on do the training me coming here er interviewing [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] and also er setting up the first assignment for you. So there's a chunk of money. Two things there. More importantly for for you is that would I be taking a hell of a chance in putting Patrick into selling advertising when the background there is is not necessarily there erm tell me why I should? [Patrick:] Okay, well I mean there are var various people that enter sales as you know they've probably been a plumber or something and gone into it. I'm not one of those. I do feel that I was introduced into it perhaps gradually erm on on a on the retail side er but sales is gonna be my career with. Erm so ultimately I mean I've got to decide which company is best suited for the area that I want to go in. Now advertising strikes me as an area that I I feel I can put make some input into. Erm and without s sounding too pretentious about it I mean there are I can see this as being a sort of mission if you like. Er for instance look at the doctors' leaflets, the brochure goes on about er how much the money has been saved for the health council and all the rest of it. It's worthwhile it's not just erm like, I don't know if I can give you an example erm [Rod:] Can I stop you, is that your normal voice? [Patrick:] Is that my normal voice? [Rod:] Yes. If it is you haven't got a chance in hell. [Patrick:] I'm a bit hoarse. [Rod:] Mm. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] I hope you don't I I can understand [Patrick:] Yes sure. [Rod:] It is so vital to us that if that is your normal voice you haven't got a cat in hell's chance of doing it. [Patrick:] Okay it's not [LAUGHTER] my telephone voice []. [Rod:] It had not be [Patrick:] It's probably my interview voice. That's what it is [Rod:] It had better not be it had better not yeah well you see see how important that I it it on the basis of your voice now you might as well walk out the door. I I'm as I'm as up front as that. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] So [Patrick:] Yep absolutely yeah. [Rod:] You know what I mean? [LAUGHTER] It's very important. [] But once again John would have heard I hope something different on the phone. But if I don't hear the same sort of thing I don't want any more problems put in our way to make that decision [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] about whether for you. Sorry to break in I wanted I wanted to make [Patrick:] Yeah exactly. [Rod:] sure that you could up your voice a bit okay. [Patrick:] Okay right. [Rod:] That's not for the tape that's for [Patrick:] No yes. That's right I mean er that that is important. Erm okay interviews tend to be an artificial sort of environment. [Rod:] This is discussions. [Patrick:] Erm yeah as you say it's discussions. Erm [Rod:] I'm still going to be tough though. [LAUGHTER] [Patrick:] Absolutely erm Right [Rod:] I've put you off your stroke but that was not [Patrick:] No that's right. [Rod:] that was not intended to see if you could survive that, although that does happen [Patrick:] That that happens on the phone anyway. [Rod:] I just wanted to make su certain I wasn't hearing your normal voice. [Patrick:] Yes. Erm I have been a bit hoarse lately but that's neither here nor there. Erm [Rod:] Don't we all get that. [Patrick:] Okay er It's it's selling an idea erm without any visual aids so obviously the voice is gonna be the most important part of it. Erm but picking up on that erm for instance I mean er first first impressions are the most important. Erm what I would do is go into a situation I'd still dress as smartly you know and all the rest of it [Rod:] We're very much a business suite company yeah. [Patrick:] Yes. You would have to be. Cos you feel good about yourself. You feel more confident in dealing with that even if it over the phone anyway. Now erm that might come in come into the car. I know the car's essential but for instance if you're going to an estate agent you're not running round using the car in company time. In the short term I think that's an area I can get over that until I get a car which [Rod:] How can you get over that? How do you mean? [Patrick:] Erm well let's say for example I was in posted in for [Rod:] Yes. [Patrick:] four weeks or whatever. Erm in that case I would need to get accommodation over here or tran commute from [Rod:] You will still need a car. [Patrick:] I'd still need a car. [Rod:] Absolutely. [Patrick:] Yep. [Rod:] You cannot do one single bit of this job you cannot come by train to do it because what, you may not dash around we hope you don't because if you follow our advice [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] you make appointment er you make appointments only to sign [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] the contract. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] But you may still have to go ten miles [Patrick:] To sign the contract. [Rod:] to sign the contract. [Patrick:] Sure. [Rod:] One way. So don't even think. There's there's no short term answer to this except a car from day one. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] All right. So there's no there's no way round that. [Patrick:] All right. [Rod:] I may have to send you a hundred miles to Aberdeen. [Patrick:] That's true. Erm okay well in that case er what sort of time scale are we working to I mean how soon do you need somebody here? [Rod:] Oh I I as far as we're concerned er the when bit is if you were are available er now we could even put you on this Thursday. If we were talking medical practices. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] But we're not. We could put you on next week. [Patrick:] Okay. Right so [Rod:] It it's that quick. And some people say okay can I start tomorrow. But you know we we we we couldn't get the we couldn't get the paperwork done that quickly. So yeah we're talking we're talking in terms of starting we're talking about next week or the week after. People who go out of that door have committed themselves to a date. [Patrick:] Yes I understand. [Rod:] Now if you said to me er I wou to to be able to get myself fixed up with a car then I need two weeks and that that suits us anyway you know if if you wanted to start next week and everything went right fine. But the week after is [Patrick:] I think I'd be looking at two to three weeks [Rod:] All right fine. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] My my er my the convincing I have to do in myself and and you have to do it for me is whether this is is the right platform for you. You're gonna go into sales anyway you said that. [Patrick:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] Erm say say we'd agreed that you know you come and you come and have a go er not have a go, we would like to think people stick with us because we've got plenty for [Patrick:] Right yes. people to do. [Rod:] Erm here's a launch pad er for Patrick to to earn substantial money, there are five companies there, ignoring the er area health authority er arena because we haven't got that up here, er which company do you think or which environment do you think you'd be most comfortable in? [Patrick:] Right well erm [Rod:] Estate agents, medical practices, schools, golf clubs? And there [Patrick:] I think [Rod:] are two there are two companies within the estates. [Patrick:] I think the estate agents erm probably is the most likely. Erm I do play golf I mean that's neither here nor there. I think the estate agents simply I do know a bit about the housing market erm [Rod:] Where from? [Patrick:] Mainly from my my M F I experience as a retail salesman I mean I dealt with contractors erm that for instance you know did up did up complete complexes bought loads of kitchens and bedrooms and that type of thing let er letting companies [Rod:] Mhm. [Patrick:] doing up and things like that. Er [Rod:] You've mentioned estate agents [Patrick:] Yes erm [Rod:] I will tell you right now that I don't think you would make it in estate agents. [Patrick:] Okay. Why [Rod:] And that's why erm on the basis that the estate agent er companies are very specific about sales background. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Because of the experience they've had over twenty years. We've had those for twenty years. However, on the medical practice side okay they feel that may be somebody with you background might suit there better. In fact I can only suggest that's the only area I can put you in. [Patrick:] The medical side? [Rod:] Yeah. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now you er it was interesting to hear what your choice is but now I'm gonna have to step in and say yeah [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] yeah in effect I can't give you any choice because I know that the medical practice erm are very much more erm not laid back that's the wrong term because erm they they have a lot more opportunity for you to succeed. Because of the environment. [Patrick:] Right I can see that the estate agents have or the estate agents are more sales orientated anyway that's that's people [Rod:] Well estate agents have never sold a house in their lives, they move paper. [Patrick:] Sure. [Rod:] The occupier of the house usually does the selling. [Patrick:] That's yeah. [Rod:] Sorry I've sold seven houses I'm a bit prejudiced against estate agents [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] cost I've done all the selling and not them. Er however I I I can I really am talking about one area here [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] and that's the medical side. So if we're we're if we get if we get past that erm er that that point of am I going to take a flier. And I would if I'm gonna use that term because I think I would be taking a flier with you. But I think it would be an opportunity. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Erm can I ask you what other opportunities you are looking at anyway? [Patrick:] Erm what with other companies? [Rod:] Yes I would expect you to be looking for a salary and wherever [Patrick:] That's right. Er okay I mean we can talk on on-target earnings of twenty five I've put twenty thousand there but that's probably [Rod:] Yeah fine. [Patrick:] a bit low now. Erm I have had a couple of interviews with a couple of other companies er [Rod:] What type? [Patrick:] Advertising as well funnily enough but er this isn't there's one that er a couple of days ago Marketing which is a Cumbernauld ex-company [Rod:] Mhm. [Patrick:] er but that's on advertising notice boards and social clubs that type of advertising. [Rod:] Right okay. [Patrick:] Er [Rod:] What's with advertising? [Patrick:] What's with advert erm [Rod:] Well yeah I mean [Patrick:] Well [Rod:] It it has to be the most difficult sell in the world selling selling a piece of blank space. [Patrick:] I don't know I mean er I thought timeshare was perhaps the most difficult area. [Rod:] Yeah you've got something to show. [Patrick:] You've got something to show haven't you. But er you're dealing with a person with with pot er prospects that are [Rod:] I mean I'm a I'm a very I'm an owner so I'm [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] I'm very pro-timeshare. [Patrick:] Yeah? Erm so I'm an owner owner which is why [Rod:] I'm the best salesman one timeshare could've got. [Patrick:] That's right because er you refer to it. Er yeah I'm mean in that sort of environment you're dealing with people that don't want to be there know this timeshare thing. They've all these people in receptions or whatever is you know it's a rip off it's a con all the rest of it. Er and [Rod:] Which of course is what advertisers would tell you as well. [Patrick:] Well yes they will do. I mean it it's it's [Rod:] But not such a rip off [Patrick:] fair enough saying you know the grass is greener somewhere else but I don't believe that necessarily. Erm advertising is something that people need to do in order to succeed. You can contributed to their success. [Rod:] But they would tell you all the time that oh I don't need to advertise [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] doing very well thank you. [Patrick:] Oh they they might do that but then er if you can be selective in other words I mean if they've got competition and the competition's advertising they've got to come come to terms with that. You know and er equal if not better it. [Rod:] Right okay. Let's get let's get the hurdle. Patrick I'm I'm gonna take a flier with you all right so we can save it. But the only place I'm gonna put you in, that's that's because I think your style and personality will fit there. It might well do in schools as well [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? Although you're not we don't ask for education but your background's not exactly in academic area. [Patrick:] Well erm [phone rings] I did a degree diploma and that which is now a degree erm at [Rod:] Hello? Could you offer her a cup of tea and say that I'll be er about fifteen minutes or so? Thank you bye. [Patrick:] I mean academically I'm studying with the Open University at the moment on a a maths course. [Rod:] Okay. No well we don't ask for education so it's not important. [Patrick:] Sure yeah that's right. [Rod:] But some times when I when people tell me that they've been in a certain environment. You see once again it's the environment we want to make people if I'm gonna ask you to succeed and back up my judgement [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] I don't want it to be questionable I want I want to make sure that somebody whose gonna be in that environment will settle down. So I want to talk about medical practices er [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] and if we can get that out of the way. There are two things that we have to look at I need two references [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] okay? and do need to be reassured about the car. And quite honestly you need it when you come on the course. [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] If you drive down to the course that needs to be your transport when you get your first assignment. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] If there's any hint that you do not have your own car then I will play you out as well as the company. And the course is the final decision point. I may put on my notes that this this guy may not have the background but there is something else I've seen or we've heard on the phone [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] but in the end they will test you out. [Patrick:] So [Rod:] and they will then they will say, Not going to do this. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] You'll still have to convince them all right? [Patrick:] Well [Rod:] Let's get that out the way shall we Patrick? [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] I'm going to sh er there's a pack that I am going to let you take away okay? And this gives you an outline of what we do.... When er I I John I hope will have told you on the phone that you have no responsibility for setting the assignments. [Patrick:] No that's right yeah. [Rod:] Okay? Er we have a marketing group that goes around the country doing that and when they er sign the surgery up to do the er for us to do the product or pri print the product they leave a sheet that looks something like this. Okay? And they are asked to provide us with a list of businesses which they are happy for us to approach. Now if they've got any sense of course they will put down businesses which they already have lots of dealings with [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] others in the area that they know might be interested in having the pre er prestige er prestige being in the booklet. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] Cos the doctors er still have that sort of element of kudos for for people to be associated with. A local community aspect. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] Now that list is provided with you on the day first day of your assignment. When you arrive at your assignment there will be an envelope full of bits and pieces right? They include that list. Now that could be six to nine months old all right? Since we signed that surgery up. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] The most important thing you do with that is not to rush to the telephone and say, Yippee I'm gonna get deals out of this. It's to sit down with the practice manager and say right tell me about these businesses. What information can I glean from you about these businesses that will help me erm produce the goods. So it's very important to quali what we call re-qualify that list. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] But that's provided for you and it is erm it you know certainly the assignments I did on the medical practice they were it was very valuable. But you do have to still sit down and get that information. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Now in that envelope there will be lots of other bits of information. I'm not going to explain all that because I haven't got samples of it here. But it certainly would be explained on the training course. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] This is an example of what's what is included. And this is er the sort of thing that er you'll hand over to the the medical practice to er at least remind them what you're doing there. And there are other bits and pieces like notices for for their board and their their surgery advising patients about the booklets. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] Now by law they must provide something like this booklet. [Patrick:] Okay so that's [Rod:] That's fixed but some some of them started off with a a fo a double sided piece of paper which is thrown away with the rest of the garbage that people keep in their houses. But these are reference books that are not thrown away and that's what makes the advertisers the benefits to the advertisers that much more important. Okay. Let me just give you an idea, just that's something else we do, let me give you some idea of, that's a couple of examples very attractive books [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] and there are three... two or three sizes of ads that er I'm going to show you er go through with you in a minute. But first of all let me explain how we come to agree the number of booklets on the and the individual financial target per assignment. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] When er the sales exec for marketing goes round doing the contract bits and pieces er they he or she and the surgery the doctors' senior partners or all the doctors will agree on the number of booklets we're going to print. That is based s s very easily and solely on the number of patients they have listed. Now they may have fifteen thousand patients, well a lot of those are going to be living in the same house so we [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] a lot of groups of people so we we print them on the ratio of three to one. So that would be a five thousand booklet. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] That five thousand per annum figure is a guaranteed figure, we could in fact print seven thousand in the first year if they wanted. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] Right? New people coming in right? [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] But that's the that's the figure we agree we guarantee to print. That automatically internally within or within which is the company for medical practices, creates a financial figure that we would like to see achieved. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Now that doesn't mean to say that if you don't get to that figure you're blown out. It just means that we would like that because we know we've covered all our costs in the first year and the second year is nice profit. [Patrick:] Right okay so [Rod:] Because we all our production costs commissions everything comes out that first year's payment. Erm it's important to not these figures because that gives you some idea er usually the size of the practice will determine the number of doctors of course. You may have a dozen doctors er how many has it got in there for instance, oh it's just got four all right. And if you go to this booklet here erm and see how many they have there it sometimes determines the amount of business you're likely to generate. Oh that's got four as well. But you can have a dozen doctors. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] That's when you get the big number advertising. It would take you longer but every doctor is worth may be a couple of ads all right in terms of who he knows or she knows. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] Keep this figure in your mind Patrick because five at five thousand pound the bonuses start creeping in. They creep in early at four and a half thousand but the significant one is at five thousand. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] And it's only five hundred pound less. Because above that in addition to the thirty percent we pay on all advertising deals we then give a fifteen percent bonus. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] All right? Now there was a book done recently worth fourteen thousand pound's worth of advertising sales I'll let you work out what that sales consultant earned in three weeks. [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] And that you know you get edgy you get your [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] back of your hair [LAUGHTER] starts standing up []. All bonuses appro are paid at proof stage. I'll explain why in a minute. But all other commissions are paid the week after. So you don't hang around for money in our in our company. If you've done the business believe in paying you for it. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] So it's not like double glazing and home improvements [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] you can wait months sometimes. Now let's have a look at the the the costings of the ad the ads all right? We have three sizes only in the medical practice booklets. We have full page half page and a quarter. [Patrick:] All right. [Rod:] And we always home in on the cost of a full page. When we're talking to the people on the phone we home in on a thousand pound. Full page is a thousand pound. Because then we can go downwards. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] If you start with a quarter page like any sale if you start with the cheapest they'll take it forget the rest. [Patrick:] Yep. [Rod:] But there are two other prices where you can sell up from a full page and that's that pre a premium slot like you see there and the chemist there will have paid twelve hundred pound. [Patrick:] Okay mhm. [Rod:] Okay? Per year for a minimum of two years. [Patrick:] Right so er right [Rod:] Okay? You've got to tell all this on the phone and remember how important that is. I can't emphasize enough. On the spot you can have ten percent discount if you need it. If you're a discounting person then you're not going to be very popular with the guy [Patrick:] That's right. [Rod:] who comes two years later when he has to do the same price again and it costs him money or her. Obviously all of this detail I explain to you here I'm just giving you a brief overview it'll be explained a lot more on the training course. [Patrick:] Okay mhm. [Rod:] Have a look at these examples because er that'll give you an idea how we calculate the money. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] If you took the lowest number of booklets which is two and a half thousand which is probably may be a two sometimes three three doctor practice [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] then you you you actually sold to the target that we have that's the amount of money you earn. And you could do that in two weeks. So that starts to look look fairly reasonable. [Patrick:] Yes mhm. [Rod:] If you're in a bigger practice that means you've got probably er more opportunity to to to get more business then that's the sort of money. Do that in two weeks I think we will be happy. [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Do that in three weeks it's still not too bad. That's mister average eight hundred and fifty pound a week. [Patrick:] Mhm mm. [Rod:] Now I'm gonna point this out. I must point this out and this would be pointed out whichever company you go into. All assignments up to a hundred miles away from home you will be paid thirty percent. If we had to send you and it's a big if, we had to send you another hundred mil further sorry another hundred miles, above a hundred miles we will pay you another five percent. Now our top earners do er top earners for two reasons. First of all they're not satisfied with getting one deal a day, they'll they'll not sit back on their laurels and say oh I've done my work, they'll go out and get another two. The other thing is that they will ask for those assignments. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] They make up their mind whether they travel there and back each day or take or stay there. [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] It's the option that you have. But we do that five percent does make an awful lot of difference. [Patrick:] Oh definitely. [Rod:] It it certainly adds up over the over the week. You're going to take that away. Well let's just give you some idea, we're not talking er telephone figures here we're talking about the platform that we give people to earn that sort of money. All right? [Patrick:] Right.... Yes can I just ask er [Rod:] Yes sure just ask away. [Patrick:] that five thousand that's regardless of whatever size of the [Rod:] Yes. [Patrick:] Yep er that's that's fine. [Rod:] Or in fact that's regardless of what company you go into. They all all the bonuses with one one small exception, they all start at five thousand pound bonuses. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Here you have an opportunity to sell as much advertising you want in the period of time. On some of our products you have a restriction of how many slots. But you'll notice that the booklets are not dominated by advertising. [Patrick:] No that's right I was just roughly trying to work out [Rod:] Mainly because the doctors have to match up [LAUGHTER] each page with copy [] and that doesn't [Patrick:] Right so [Rod:] And they're not like that. [Patrick:] Mhm. So you can't you can't really over sell on this then can you? [Rod:] Well the doctors are, I'll explain one thing this er which is unique to this product. For every full page of advertising we achieve in the medical practice booklet the surgery receives a hundred pound from us. [Patrick:] Oh right okay so [Rod:] So one of the things about qualifying er the surgery when you walk into them and say well look you know about the hundred pound per full page [Patrick:] Mhm [Rod:] it'll benefit all of us if you give me as much assistance as you possibly can. [Patrick:] Yep. [Rod:] What you need to do is something like erm, may be, saying to the surgery well is there a pie a piece of equipment something you specially want that we might be able to achieve through their and if they say, Yes we want a photocopier, well how much is a photocopier, well four hundred is what the last price we got quoted, aim for four pages. And if they think that they they can help you out with that that extra half page to get four pages [Patrick:] Mhm [Rod:] they will. [Patrick:] They'll do it yeah. [Rod:] And then they start getting even more excited and go beyond that. [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] Yes. [Rod:] In the main we we look for an average between sixteen to twenty pages [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] total of er of copy and advertising. Now we will pay your commissions providing you do a couple of this for us. Sell the space obviously but you do need paper. We've kept it as simple simple as we can. And I'm going to point out two or three things why it's absolutely essential that you tell everything over the phone. Because any one of these two or three things that I show you is enough if it's a surprise to them they will blow you out. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] First of all you want three things. That's a contract, and this is the same contract across all of our six companies. The only difference you know if you're colour blind it's tough. But you'll see [LAUGHTER] all right? Erm the contract is always between three parties ourselves the advertiser and the doctors' practice. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] These are the things that they will cancel out on you know you've wasted your time if you don't tell them. We want I want to collect mister advertiser a thirty five percent of the first year's payment deposit cheque from you. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] The sec [Patrick:] I was I was gonna ask about that so it's not actually money up front total er or [Rod:] No it's a sales pitch. Because they say, Cor I can't afford that lot, you know [Patrick:] Yes right. [Rod:] We say yeah but we're we're doing it in three stages. We're taking a deposit cheque and if you notice that significant figure [Patrick:] Mm. [Rod:] that's why we can pay your commission the following week, we've picked up thirty five percent. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] Er we pay pick up the second the second stage which is the balance of the first year's payment at er about six to eight week's later through this banker's order. And that is another reason for for blowing you out. If they if you haven't told them that we want a banker's order signed all right? [Patrick:] Yes right. [Rod:] If you say I'd like to er can you get this banker's order, oh well wait a minute we need two signatures on that, or we don't deal with banker's order. Of course they do [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] but if you don't tell them that on the phone when you come it this is what I want [Patrick:] Yes okay I yeah [Rod:] and it could be and if if there's two signatures if there are two signatures require on the on the cheque we need two on the banker's order and you need both of those people there. If they're not and left that you'd never see it again. They'll loose it they'll loose it in their system. Then it's deadline time they say, Oh well forget it next time you're around. Two years later you've lost it. And that's why we tell them and there are some other things you tell them on the phone of course which you'll find out about on the training school. [Patrick:] Mm. Okay. [Rod:] Two things so far. That and the cheque. And we want to know about what you want a new ad. Now in the main nine times out of ten they will have advertised somewhere [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] and we're quite happy to accept that. However if they want to be juggled and redesigned we will do that at no extra cost. We will actually design and top-copy write their ad free of charge anyway. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] It's no extra cost. It's all built in and they breathe a sigh of relief. We don't want you to be a graphic arts expert or a copy expert we have plenty of those back at head office [Patrick:] Okay yes. [Rod:] Twenty year's worth of experience in bringing ads together give us and we've got thousands of examples [Patrick:] Yes sure. [Rod:] we can show them. Not all at once but [Patrick:] No that's right I get it. [Rod:] That's the document. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] Once again colour coded to keep everybody happy. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] And the training course will show you what to do there and you take samples away and the training manual as well. [Patrick:] Right okay. [Rod:] Erm one thing that may hel will help is a compliment slip or a letter heading if we have to lift a logo it's difficult from a photocopy [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] so we will ask you to do that. If you do all that for us you can then get gather all those bits and pieces together and put them on your commission claim. Which of course is the most important document [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] of the week. And this is er this is my last but one before I came into recruiting. [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] Every consultant has his or her own number and so does the assignment [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] and that number is on the documentation you receive when you er when you arrive at the practice. We put the size down we put the advertiser the practice the town. What I've just described to you is a full and complete contract. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] There are some organizations such as BUPA hospitals have a special arrangement where we don't need a cheque and we don't need a banker's order. However we do need a full er BUPA hospital order. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] That's another thing you have to tell them remind them on the phone. Yes I want to go in, oh when I come round I need a contract signed I also need an order with this wording on it. And they'll say well can you fax the wording through, practices have got it or you just drop is round. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Value of contract commissions er rate and the amount of your commission. That's what we're looking for in terms of value every year every week, that's mister average okay? I mentioned bonuses paid at proof stage. Every two months a list of er er assignments that comes round er comes round to the sales execs for those that have been fully proofed. That is when you can claim your bonus if you're due any on that assignment. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Now a lot of people leave them the bonuses in there to accrue for tax or whatever, new car or holidays. It is safe as houses you don't forfeit it it's entirely you can claim it when your due but you can leave it there for us to [Patrick:] Right that's good yeah. [Rod:] protect. If it's in your bank you'll spend it. [Patrick:] Inevitably. [Rod:] That arrives on Monday [Patrick:] Mhm. [Rod:] and get all your commission paid in direct in to your bank that Friday. Right now is that of interest to you? Do you think you can do it? [Patrick:] It sounds very feasible yes I know. As I say yes I can do it erm There was a couple of things [Rod:] Now ask any questions [Patrick:] Is it black and white one colour? [Rod:] All. [Patrick:] Yep okay cos [Rod:] One except okay. The the only spot colour that is is what usually aligned in some way. Now we've got we've got a green there so we've er allowed them to do that. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] The only erm exception and that's not even in your price structure, is that if somebody says, Look is there any chance I can have colour, that's the only place they can have it on the back copy back cover sorry. And you have to get a letter of release from the doctor [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] because that's the doctors' . [Patrick:] Yes. [Rod:] And they may have already chosen to put something like that on the back. [Patrick:] That's right okay. [Rod:] Okay? So you have to get a release and it's somewhere around fifteen hundred pound for that back page. But people have ta Asda have taken [Patrick:] Yeah? [Rod:] Asda the er you know have taken. [Patrick:] Right. [Rod:] Otherwise it's all mono. [Patrick:] No it's sounds straightforward. [Rod:] All right. So we're talking about two weeks' time, that's two weeks Thursday. [Patrick:] Okay. [Rod:] You reckon? [Patrick:] Yeah I think so. [Rod:] You don't sound so sure. [Patrick:] No I've got a number of possibilities I'm just check running through my mind which is the first one to go for. So [Rod:] Okay so you've had some interviews, you've got some more interviews coming up? [Patrick:] Erm well I'm suppose to hear some time this afternoon er when I get back now [Rod:] Mm. [Patrick:] whether I've got this other one or not. Erm but then weighing things up I've got to reflect on that one. Because first of all I don't money isn't every but that's er what we're in business for. Er they certainly weren't paying as much. Er [Rod:] This is the other advertising? [Patrick:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] Well can you do that without a car? [Patrick:] Well ultimately no. But yeah I need a car. Erm so there to that end [Rod:] Whichever right. Er let me tell you in any self employed business you're gonna have to have a car. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] So. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] So better get it sooner or later. [Patrick:] That's right. So I'd better hear what they say. Erm I I think they'll offer to me to to be totally frank. [Rod:] Oh will you take it? I I'm not gonna go through all this er [Patrick:] Sure. Erm that's something I've got er before I arrived here today in all honesty I probably would have said yes. Because I mean that would have been the first job offer. [Rod:] Because we're not a second and seed company [Patrick:] No that's right. [Rod:] and erm coming you know we we will sort you out if you don't [Patrick:] Oh yeah. Mhm. Erm the [Rod:] If you want to leave it [Patrick:] This discussion has actually sort of change my perspective on it erm and so it's it's not that there's an element of doubt in my mind I'm just I if I'm gonna go into something it's got to be a hundred percent. [Rod:] Right okay. Well I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna give you all this bumph to take away. I I you [Patrick:] You've seen the doubt in my mind. [Rod:] You've got your doubts and you know I've had my doubts right from the [Patrick:] Yes certainly. [Rod:] beginning. And I think you you really have to go away and seriously think whether you can [Patrick:] I don't want you to think [LAUGHTER] that [Rod:] No no no. [Patrick:] I've wasted your time [Rod:] But I'm not gonna no no no it's all good practice. [LAUGHTER] [Patrick:] No yeah but erm [Rod:] Well I I think I I've had my doubts from the start and I you have you're iffy about it and I don't want anybody whose iffy generally doesn't make it with us. [Patrick:] No that's right. [Rod:] Because that means they're gonna be iffy on the phone gonna be iffy in everything they do and I as you know I have you know I'm gonna take a flier with you. So it would be [Patrick:] Well that's that's another side of it as well. I mean you're going with me now if I don't make the grade at the interview [Rod:] Mhm. [Patrick:] you know that's against me as well so erm... so that that in itself has put a doubt in my mind if you know what I mean. Because you think that because you [Rod:] Oh I mean I I after we after er we may never see look at each other again so my my job is to is to say right I can forward your name to and say look you know er I will make one or two points this guy er needs to be concentrated on, not as an exception, but you know because we've taken fliers with people before you've been very successful. But I have to say that they've been the major percent of them er we think if only they would knuckle down to it they would do it. [Patrick:] Mhm. Yeah. [Rod:] I if I were you I'd probably be er you know looking around a bit. May be well wait for the you know wait for the er [Patrick:] Okay erm... right I mean this... It's a bit of a catch twenty two. I mean obviously I want to get a job to get start getting money erm to own my own car is gonna involve money. [Rod:] Yeah what you the difference here [Patrick:] But but [Rod:] Pat Patrick is you need to earn money to get the car [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] in effect. Whereas that's the wrong way round for us. [Patrick:] Mhm yeah. I mean I have access to cars but [Rod:] Yeah but that that's not the same. [Patrick:] That's not the same. [Rod:] We've had people say access to the car and then we get a phone call to say they're off sick for a couple of weeks that actually means that the car has been not available. [Patrick:] Yeah. [Rod:] And won't have that. [Patrick:] Mhm. Well that's understandable. [Rod:] I think I think we'd better erm er er you know we both have doubts. [Patrick:] [LAUGHTER] Okay well erm thanks for taking the time out [Rod:] All right. Well okay. [Patrick:] This has still been an experience erm there might be another time in the future. [Rod:] You never know. Let me get let me get this out your way so that er [Patrick:] Right. I'll give back then. [Rod:] Okay yeah. Yeah. Do you want your application form back? [Patrick:] Er well it's [Rod:] Oh I'll take no I'll keep that. Er keep that as a as a future reference. [Patrick:] Okay thanks. [Rod:] All right?

[speaker001:] Right. No we get we get a lot of erm sort of similar questions I'm no I'm trying I'm trying to be it's only just me. The company haven't asked me to do it it's just er erm just a personal thing. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Also make sure I'm doing the right thing as well. Erm right purpose of the discussions, I don't call them interviews er because it's a self employed position and er you know we're not offering quote a job unquote. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er business opportunity I suppose would be the better [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] er way of er describing it. Erm but er unless I I may repeat one or two of the things I'd have said on the phone I'm bound to do that, er the three things that are gonna be decided here today really is you if you and I erm you've got inside information of course, er if you and I agree that er is the is the platform for you to earn some good money. Er secondly which environment er you feel comfortable with. And I have to say that's a luxury that most recruiters don't have but whoever walks through this door I I you know providing all the other things jell erm I have the luxury of offering five companies in which er an individual can go into. Whereas some er normal recruiting is one person one job and [Lynda:] That's it. [Rod:] hard luck to the rest. It's not quite that way. Er where did as a matter of interest where did John I did I interview John or did I [Lynda:] Yes you did it was er the advertisement I'd seen or very similar in the Scotsman newspaper and I must admit when he got all the information I thought damn I should have [LAUGHTER] gone for that myself []. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Okay fine. [] Well here's your chance. And one thing that that will generate when you have er erm er I don't think we've got any husband and wives but I think we've got one or two partner and friend or partner er relationships they usually get in competition with each other. That that does us all the world of good. [Lynda:] Yes. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynda:] Quite competitive so yes I'd [Rod:] Okay. [Lynda:] agree with that. [Rod:] Right now I've got a bit of background [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] obviously erm I've ju all I've got down here is local newspaper advertising five years which would have been enough er [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] for me to have er... I I tell you what I do get concerned about Lynda is somebody who can't spell their first name. [Lynda:] Oh god which is me what have I done? [LAUGHTER] Can I borrow that? [Rod:] It's all right I'm only I'm being facetious there. [LAUGHTER] [Lynda:] No you shouldn't it is an error. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] How easily it's done though. [] [Lynda:] It's a laughing joke at work. There was an advertisement that came up, Adults learning how to spell. And all the guys at the back the T T S put my name down for it because they had great hilarity [Rod:] Oh really? [Lynda:] about my spelling so. [Rod:] Er is that Lynda Jane? [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] Oh that's the same two names as my daughter Lynda Jane. Spelt the same too oh no they're not. You've got a Y. [Lynda:] Mhm it's Welsh my spelling. [Rod:] And she's got a Y in her Jayne strangely enough. Right okay what I this will be the first time I've had a look at er a little bit more of your background so erm while I'm doing that, although you may have already inside information, I I guess you'd seen the brochure before had you? [Lynda:] Yeah I'd read the brochure. [Rod:] Okay. Erm but you may not have seen er [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] the range of products that we do. Erm the folders are at the top [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] er there so you may or may not be familiar with those of course er with your er connection with John. Erm have have a look through those I I'll while you're looking at those I'll still ask you erm er some questions [Lynda:] Certainly no problem. [Rod:] and erm... particularly in relationship of course to your erm your advertising. Remind me had John done advertising? [Lynda:] Erm no. He'd actually been on the receiving end of recalling them. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Oh ha ha. [] Well that's it. [LAUGHTER] Get friendly with the client. []... Now you have okay so you have to give erm er you're in an employed status at the moment [Lynda:] Mhm yeah. [Rod:] so you have to give four weeks. [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] Er if you [Lynda:] She's quite she's quite a stickler for that erm I've got [Rod:] Are they? [Lynda:] I've got holidays to take so she may allow me to take that as part of my resignation. But I thought I'd be safe in putting that down. [Rod:] Okay well you'll probably know erm that of course we can start people immediately if they were [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] but er we obviously recognize that if people have to resign and er from a salaried position. What do you feel about going from employed to er commission only self employed? [Lynda:] Well I actually been on commission only before er Yellow Pages when I started with well a [Rod:] Oh right. [Lynda:] basic of about eight and a half of something [Rod:] Mm. [Lynda:] and sort of within of me starting there they bought out a new contract which was commission only. So the only they were giving you was a car and expenses. So you know it was up to you to sort of prove yourself from from there. [Rod:] Okay. [Lynda:] Erm I'm not bothered about being self employed. In fact I'm actually allowing me to write my off and my expenses and [Rod:] Yes sure there are [Lynda:] doing things so [Rod:] there are advantages erm and quite honestly if erm er the way I put it is that salary company car and BUPA and all that sort of thing [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] is only commission in another form. [Lynda:] That's right and [Rod:] and they can take that away from you just as soon as [Lynda:] Well exactly what happened to me erm [Rod:] But can I just pick up on [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] nationality [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] er Australian. It doesn't sound too bad, not too bad, too much now [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] erm unless your surname's Keating. Erm a no problem with er work permits and things like that? [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] You've got residential er [Lynda:] I've got dual nationality. [Rod:] Okay fine. Right. We we've had one or two hiccups so I always ask about that. Okay. Right well obviously that those last five years have been the er the important ones for us. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now you've got erm the Press er as a reference [Lynda:] Yes she's my direct boss. [Rod:] Okay obviously you wouldn't want us to do anything about that until you resign I guess. [Lynda:] Exactly yes. [Rod:] I'll put a I'll put a circle round the no and there that's for my own benefit. Okay so you've given you've given us erm the same company as erm that mm that may present a problem with us. Would you be able to get a get us another reference? [Lynda:] Probably the only thing is obviously I've been there a while now so any previous employment and the people that were there aren't there any longer. Erm in fact don't do Yellow Pages any more it's I B T [Rod:] No no yes. [Lynda:] Erm so that's why I've put down the two. I mean I can get obviously personal references [Rod:] Yep. [Lynda:] or people I've dealt with [Rod:] Okay. Er I I don't think that's going to be a major problem with us. Erm your reference probably is John anyway. [Lynda:] Oh god [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah what would what would he say? [] All right. Okay well I'll asterisk that for my own benefit as well the four weeks bit. Erm yep. Er the proven track record in the selling advertising that's fine. Now we er er you I here once again I'm gonna repeat myself [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] erm possibly that I would have emphasized er the fact that we don't do quote fact to fact selling [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] of advertising [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] we are really er I'm preaching the company policy and also something I know that er works [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] is that we do make sure that people know everything on the phone so. Erm I've circled, Have you qualified sales by telephone as I can't believe you haven't [Lynda:] Well it depended er the reason I left that blank as I wondered companies take that meaning different things. Such as is it a lead that's come in and been qualified by a sale. Is it been a cold call and you've qualified it by getting an advertisement out there or is it qualified by actually getting the money in your hand. Well I haven't done [LAUGHTER] the third one []. But I've done the other two. [Rod:] Right no qualifying in in in er I will tell you what the erm er sort of policy on that or opinion on that is that if you have got er a closure on the phone. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now you must have at some time or other in advertising closed the deal on the phone. [Lynda:] Oh yeah mhm. [Rod:] Well that's that's what we mean by that. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] I have I would say that most of the people who answer yes who have been in say for instance home improvements [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] direct er double glazing and things like that, they will put yes. Whereas we think [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] it's more towards the no. [Lynda:] Yes. [Rod:] Because they cannot discuss the requirements on the phone. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] In other words they can't tell price because they measure up and all things [Lynda:] That's right. [Rod:] like that. So that's that's what that's er in fact I always qualify people on that answer even though it's it's right down the bottom here I say what do you what's your interpretation. And I er I can't believe that you haven't er very presumptuous of me to put yes round your you know but you'd left it er so but I've no problem with that. Three things that we do decide I've already said, whether you and I feel that this is a platform for you. Certainly which environment which company erm and there are only five of the companies that the. Area health authorities we're not looking for up here. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And when. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Most of those we can answer straight away. You've got your four weeks thing there. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] That could come forward. [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm I have no doubt in my own mind that you would be able to erm launch into this without any problem because of your experience. So having got that first one out of the way [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] the last one we know is constricted by where you are at the moment. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you can put away the fact that John has already er [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] introduced you may be er in some ways to us, which would you prefer to be in. Which which company if I was to give you a choice, and the luxury that most recruiters don't have. [Lynda:] To be honest it would be between the portfolios as you call them the the folders and erm probably that the golfing thing. The reason I'd probably go for the estate agency is cos I deal with estate agencies in where I am. [Rod:] Right okay. So you've got a you've got a background [Lynda:] So I feel a bit of comfort there. [Rod:] You've got a history. So okay then [Lynda:] I've got confidence. [Rod:] But that's that's exactly why I ask that question if you're confident. [Lynda:] But again it's slightly different because their having what I can gather, I mean cos John's not discussed it very much and he's very much involved in [Rod:] Sure. [Lynda:] in his assignment done, is that everything else there the outside cover but everything else is up to you to make sure the inside is filled. [Rod:] Absolutely. [Lynda:] Cos that's entirely different. That because I've used those before not for golfing or anything like that but just as a general map of reference or [Rod:] When you say those you mean the golf cards? [Lynda:] Yeah. Erm and I've found them quite useful. That that type of idea. [Rod:] Right. [Lynda:] But probably because I'm comfortable I would say the estate agency. [Rod:] Right. Well er er erm the the whole point of about asking that sort of question is that er I in my own mind I know where I think [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] it might be a good idea. But in the end er if I can put you somewhere where you're gonna be happy to work [Lynda:] Yeah get more out of me [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] Er now we've got but we do have two products there of equal standing in terms of product er sorry of of erm salary potential [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] remuneration [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] earnings whatever you like to say money. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm now John's on folders but there is another product range and that's the er [Lynda:] This one. [Rod:] yeah the postal wallets. [Lynda:] I found that quite intriguing cos I can remember getting these sent out to me by G A when I was moving house. [Rod:] Well G A be based in Perth of course is er one of our major clients up here. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er and once again they they they're all part of estates division and er you know they're as equally valua valuable to the er [Lynda:] Yeah yeah. It would be a bit difficult to choose between either of them because they both present. Erm I know some companies actually sell send the large ones out [Rod:] Yes. [Lynda:] cos I've seen that as well and friends give me [Rod:] Well then [Lynda:] but I had one of these. [Rod:] Yes they're not really meant to be sent out [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] I have to say though first of all especially if they have the larger version [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] the er the bigger one the half A three, it erm they are meant really to be targeted for people coming through that they can hand information to. That's of course exactly why we introduced the er postal wallets. [Lynda:] Well thing is people are moving to an area they may be given some information by their company but [Rod:] Mhm. [Lynda:] unless you do your research you don't know anything about it. [Rod:] That's right. [Lynda:] They're both excellent. Both [Rod:] Okay well how do you let me ask how you feel. Because we know the the connection with John. John's on folders I mean would you feel comfortable in working in the same group as him? You'd still be in estates division [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] but [Lynda:] Wouldn't particularly bother me because erm I've always managed to distract my professional and my personal career. The thing is you said it would probably make us quite competitive toward each other you know. [Rod:] Yes. [Lynda:] If you if you go out for the kitchen you know or whatever it is [Rod:] Okay. [Lynda:] but [Rod:] Erm [Lynda:] No personal grievances or anything. [Rod:] All right. No no no I it just it just sometimes er you know all right. Because erm there is a sort of competition between the two products [Lynda:] Mhm mhm. [Rod:] you know obviously. Erm but in the end it's all estates division anyway. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. I mean would you would you shall we home in on the folders? [Lynda:] Er [Rod:] Or the postal wallets. Postal wallets I don't know from experience but I'm told it's supposed to be easier. [Lynda:] That's a good phrase in [LAUGHTER] advertising []. Everything's easy when you've never done it before. [Rod:] No yeah I I mean I've sold I've sold advertising on the medical practice booklets but er [Lynda:] Aha aha. To be honest both are going to a certain type of market [Rod:] Mhm. [Lynda:] Erm [Rod:] They're both doing the same [Lynda:] Yeah [Rod:] in fact they're both doing the same in terms of [Lynda:] One is somebody's walking through the door to pick up information [Rod:] Yep. [Lynda:] and one is being sent out in a way [Rod:] Yeah. The other major difference of course we'll print may be three thousand of the folders but thirty five thousand of the er others [Lynda:] That's what I was thinking. Obviously your distribution will be much greater. [Rod:] Yes er what what er the pitch I think in fact I've heard them say this er because I've been out with two of the top fliers up here [Lynda:] Mhm? [Rod:] erm is that er in the case of the postal wallet you're in effect presenting the prospective house buyer with their business card every time you [Lynda:] Mhm [Rod:] send them out. So you could send out a dozen business cards now [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] you couldn't pay anybody [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] to stand at the door of the rec of an estate agent [Lynda:] That's right. [Rod:] erm you couldn't pay them ten pound a week [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] and hand out a business car [Lynda:] And if they were doing their own mailing themselves er mailshot, they'd be lucky to get between one and two percent reply. [Rod:] Yeah right. [Lynda:] Whereas that is dedicated market. [Rod:] Let's have a look er this is the information pack that you take away. Well once again you may have seen all this before. [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] Well John's kept this to himself. [Lynda:] Oh right. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Get the papers away. Now in terms of the division [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] erm they both are f er form estates division. However more recently they they started to do things sort of separately in including a separate training. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] Now at one time I used to say here you are here are the two products when you go on the training course it'll be decided at the end of the training course which product you'll go on. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And it wasn't arbitrary it was where we needed somebody at that time. Now that's changed slightly on the basis that er we will tell people before they go now. In other words we have selected the company in which they work. It's postal or folders. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] But there wouldn't be any point in me going through both sets [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] if we're just gonna be talking about [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. However there is one thing that could hiccup there. Just when you say however or but it means there's gonna be a problem. Is that if we took you on if we if we agreed that it my postal wallets might be a good idea for you and you were to delay coming into the er into the company by a week, it could change which company you go into. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] But in February that even that's changing [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] where there gonna be a training course for each of these products every week. So I suppose I'm introducing something that would only exist if you started next week. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Which we know you can't. But I still have to decide today where to put you or where we where you feel comfortable.... Postal wallets or folders. [Lynda:] Difficult. [Rod:] Well I I know I'm putting you under a bit of pressure here on the basis that erm it's lovely to be able to have a choice. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now if I was to say erm er if I would have no doubt of course if if I didn't know about your connection with John. If I put that aside I would say let's put you on erm postal wallets. [Lynda:] Mhm. That does appeal to me because it's nothing you're not particularly competing to something like Yellow Pages or anything like that. It's something entirely on its on. [Rod:] Yeah it is in that sense I suppose it can't be almost unique. It is in that sense and you need product because I don't think we have any competition on this at all. We do on the folders albeit [Lynda:] The first thing people are gonna say is, Well I've not seen one so you send one out to them. [Rod:] Yes. And there's no doubt about it. I've had one of these through the post myself and read it. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And looked at the advertising out of curiosity to see who would advertise. Well at some time or other it sticks. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Now these when they're received through the post of course not necessarily retained [Lynda:] Mhm. Put aside. [Rod:] But it's it's they're put aside and they're still used as a reference I understand. But it's repetitive. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] That you'll get er a number of er. There is another spin off for the estate agent of course [Lynda:] Mhm? [Rod:] that if this comes through the post, I'll give you an example. I've just put my house on the market in York I've chosen the if erm that's that's you know the whole taking the whole scene into consideration, but if I was in Bournemouth for instance and buying a house in York and I said I phone three or four estates agents and said, Look please send me information through the post. And the information came in that Yes and you you feel much more confident [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] and then you start of cou then you say right erm er let's keep hold of this information so these are retained and there's also a benefit to the estate agent, and there's the G A one which of course is er by coincidence is the Aberdeen one but of course we er you know we have them all around the country. Shall we home in on these? [Lynda:] Mhm yeah. [Rod:] Yes? [Lynda:] Definitely. [Rod:] I think so. You get to take this away with you. [Lynda:] Let's have a look at the Aberdeen cos I did work on the Aberdeen [Rod:] Oh did you? What's that a erm a paper [Lynda:] Paper the pages.... Yeah.... [Rod:] Right. Now erm you will already know and I certainly would've told you on the phone that er you are not responsible for setting the assignments up. You don't go round knocking on doors at the estate agent. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er we have a marketing group that er already takes care of that. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm and when the assignment er that you are sent or when the assignment comes to the top of the pile they look around the er organization and say who is the most suitably er geographically er situated and who is the most available who is gonna be available. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] You and the management will agree that you're coming to the end of that assignment and you get you get a new one. As you know it's con it's continuity of assignment. And er some of the things that er all assignment details are sent to the to the estate agent not to home. Right so so no mail in connection with the assignment is sent to your home it's always sent to the er. And when you arrive at the er estate agent there there is an envelope with all different sort of information in t in there. Erm that is I'm gonna have to take that back to the company because that's a prime example of what you don't put in. I knew there was something wrong as soon as I saw [Lynda:] Of course yeah. [Rod:] Yeah and when I it's gonna be nice to be able to send take that back [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] provided all all of them have got that one in.... Oi oi oi.... Right let's have a look and see if we can [LAUGHTER] yeah I can I can see that's [] [Lynda:] Yes. [Rod:] all right. That means that that pack is null and void there. Erm that's inside plus other information about the assignment er waiting for you. And you give that sort of thing to the estate agent. Now we've been doing these or working with estate agents for twenty years. We publish this newspaper here the estate agents [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] and news so we're not exactly strangers. And they'll they'll anybody new in the estate agent in sta in staff terms they'll let them look at that and say well that's what Lynda 's here er sorry I beg your pardon Yeah Lynda 's here here for. And er there will also be details about er the targets that we set for that particular project. And that has been determined by our marketing executive who has signed up the estate agent. This is what we look at in terms of er target of erm the er wallets we're going to print and that is determined, not quite sure what the measurement is for estate agent it's something to er to do combination of the number of peop er number of mailings they've done in the last er twelve months and also the number of houses they have on their their books. I think tho those are the measurements. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] And that's put. Now those that those are the numbers that we guarantee to print. Now [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] that doesn't mean to say that we will only print those [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] it means that that's the minimum. Now internally, internally within, that automatically generates a target that we want from that assignment. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And there's the target for go to go for. It's not necessarily erm a target if you don't get it hard luck er that's the end of your s your time with us, it's just a target that we would like we know that we're gonna clear all our costs out of that first year. But there is erm a cut off point where we know we have covered that. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] So if you're successful in achieving the full target with a full postal wallet then we everybody's happy and you've earned a lot of money. Now we have erm in fact this is an exception. This is the erm er we start bonus payments at four thousand pound on postal wallets [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] the others start at four and a half. But it's that figure there that I think we need to concentrate on as far as good bonuses are concerned. Because every erm slot above that all revenue above that we will pay an extra fifteen percent. We pay all those at proof stage. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] Now that's that can be sometimes erm eight to ten weeks after the assignment's finished. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] We pay them at proof stage because that's the second time we get any money from the client. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] Let's have a look at this year's price list er it says nineteen ninety three but I say it's carried on as far as we know er there aren't any at the moment increases. And if er when you arrive on an assignment every assignment has a new one of these and in fact it's a blank. [Lynda:] All right. [Rod:] All right? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] It gives the position numbers the sizes erm and the price. So if you can line these prices up you'll see that the top is always gonna be people always read from the top down. And there's a very important and most people can't understand why we could possibly sell the flap until of course you realize that that's taken off [Lynda:] Oh yeah. [Rod:] and that drops down. And when anything drops down like that the eyes are drawn straight to it. And that's why it is a prime slot as well. But if you look down here, if somebody wanted to buy the the flap inside and out they would pay twelve hundred pound. So that would be the most expensive one. [Lynda:] Right yeah. [Rod:] But in in in fact I think you'll find that most people buy one or the other or even [Lynda:] yeah. Mhm. [Rod:] Okay? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] You are allowed an immediate ten percent discount if you want on this product but [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] We have people sales people that are always discounting but er well when I say we the world has. But you give mon you give your own money away. It might not be so tempted on this again. But er it's there. It could be towards the end of your assignment you want to fin wrap it up get one la one last slot and you say, Yeah you can have a ten percent. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Here's an example. If you sold just one to eight on a flap that would be a tar er that would be a total revenue of six thousand pound. That's what you would earn with bonuses. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] It's not a bad deal is it? [Lynda:] And how long does each assignment usually take? [Rod:] Well we have in our contract two to three weeks. Fifteen working days. That's our contract with the estate agent. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And quite honestly they get a bit edgy if you stay overstay your mark so. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] We're talking fifteen working days. Now that can be achieved of course may be quicker. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] We hope hope it is because if you take three weeks to do that it dilutes [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] But if you do the whole thing and I'm [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] you know as I say I've not worked in this division but I I know that these have been fully sold, that's the sort of money and once again that has to be done in three weeks. So we're not far off our nine hundred pound a week. [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] Not far off we are right on it. [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] That's what we're looking for people to earn. Er erm John's in his early stage and anybody that needs start. We've just had somebody go out and sell four and a half thousand pound in one week [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] on his first assignment in his first week out there. And he didn't have a background in selling advertising space. There's some people just either strike lucky or they're good. I don't think you can be that lucky [Lynda:] Mm. [Rod:] I think you have to have something as well. Okay? [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] So I'll leave that with you. We will pay, once again you may be privy to have seen this other. We will pay your commissions with pleasure providing you do one or two things for us. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er I will have explained er er I certainly would've explained on the phone that er part of the contract requires them to give us a list of prospective advertisers. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] It really warms it up. Now one of the things that it must be very tempting to do is say, Yippee I've got my list and go dashing in and phone everybody in sight [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] without any background information on the er sell that has to be qualified. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] If I was to er ask you to er just for the next ten minutes to start listing out the advertisers that you think might go into these, my guess is you'd only get twenty five percent [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] of the categories that and that's just some of them. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] And you wouldn't think of most of those. And that's because we tend to prejudge who will or will not go in. Yellow Pages everybody gets a free entry so there's already a warm up situation. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er free lineage anyway. [Lynda:] No you see that's debatable because you actually charge business line rates so your entry's not free. [Rod:] Oh okay so we're paying what you're saying is [Lynda:] Yes so you're paying it in directly but people don't think that way. [Rod:] No and you're not encouraged yeah not encouraged to point that out to them anyway. [LAUGHTER] Okay so that list, in fact that's what it looks like when it comes into us. [Lynda:] All right. [Rod:] I'm sorry looks like that but er [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] and filled out. Now those can rep be er somewhere between mediocre and excellent. [Lynda:] Mhm. Depends on how much of a relationship they've got. [Rod:] It depends on how seriously they're taking their product. And that's why it's important to sit down and qualify it. Say, well come on you've only put ten names down there. [Lynda:] If it means business for them I should think they should want to do more. [Rod:] They should. If they've got any sense at all they should be I mean they're getting it for free except for the telephone calls you might use [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] and some cups of coffee or whatever. Erm you'd have thought that they would have taken the trouble to erm you know to do some bit of arm twisting. [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] Some of them do of course. Funny handshakes and whatever. But to get why when er why we want to pay your commission and er it it's because we are looking for three pieces of paper [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] or documentation. This is erm just to demonstrate that it's the same contract across all of our six companies. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Unless you're colour blind you'll see that they are different colours. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] In fact that's the one for this company. Read upside down I can't Publications looks after postal wallets. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And I know I'm going to reinforce how important it is to tell people all this up front before you go round. Cos one two two or three things associated with this contract if you don't if you surprise them with erm with them face to face and you don't tell them on the phone they'll blow you out. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] They'll use it as an excuse. And I'll home in oh once again erm sorry I'll I'll repeat to you but I'll I'll reinforce that [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] all this is demonstrated in much more er detail on the course. And if you've got a partner that's doing it as well then you've got the best of both worlds. But if you don't tell them that first of all you want a contract. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you don't tell them that you'll want a deposit cheque of thirty five percent of the first year's payment depending on what you charge them [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] for the ad. If you don't tell them that you need to pick that up and if you don't tell them that you need a banker's order to take the rest of the payments out [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] they'll they'll say, Just a minute Lynda you didn't tell me that [Lynda:] Yeah I know you're covering yourself. One beauty of it is now with Yellow Pages for them being able to pay things monthly, they're used to giving signing contracts for things like that. So some them could be pre-educated anyway. [Rod:] Oh right. [Lynda:] And tend to assume I have to do this anyway. [Rod:] Yes. There I must admit I've never I didn't have any surprise that I was I wanted a a deposit cheque. [Lynda:] No. A lot of [Rod:] There's som [Lynda:] people don't like asking for that though. [Rod:] Yeah. But if you ask for it face to face they'll blo they'll say well no I don't do you didn't say that. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you had told me that you wouldn't be here. That's the that's the reply you can get. [Lynda:] Mhm yeah. [Rod:] We also point out to them of course that the second er portion of the first year's payment is taken out through banker's order. That introduces the banker's order [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] idea. And the sales pitch of course is that you don't take the second year's payment until a year later. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Some people still think that they've got to pay for the whole [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] two years up front. Now er that's that generates two of the three documents that the cheque and er the important thing er about the cheque of course is that if it's two signatories, and a lot of companies of course require that, we need two signatories on the banker's order. And you can't go you needn't go round until they're both together. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Cos if you left that with the first signatory you'd never see it again. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] They use it as an excuse. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er the other er er poi er piece of paper we want of course is copy. Now I'm preaching to the converted here in terms of you you'll appreciate we need copy. Just to show you once again all colour coded. [Lynda:] Mhm. All right. [Rod:] Very simple document. Most of our advertisers have already been in some form of advertising before. And we're happy we once again say on the phone, Well what I want tomorrow is a deposit cheque, contract, bankers order and if you've got copy available I'll take that a juggle it around as you want. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] This is the document that we send in with any copy. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] If they've never advertised before and it is a rare occasion but it does happen, we we put our own thoughts down there we discuss that with them. [Lynda:] Right. Do we actually draw them up? Or do the copy department deal with it the copy department? [Rod:] No we've got we've got twenty or thirty girls back there hammer and tongs. We've got six months work just wai you know just going through the process at the moment. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] It's amazing. We're taking people on in the copy group and we've got twenty years' worth of adverts. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Plenty to show people. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] But they will show you on the training course how they like that drawn out at the bottom. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Compliment slip and letter heading you probably used to ask for ask er asking for. If that's not part of the three not part of the deal that you send in that will not cause a major problem. They'll just say well it will help if you can go back and get one all right. [Lynda:] Especially if they've got a logo or something it's a good way to sort of ask for it. [Rod:] Yeah. Imagine having to lift that from a [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] photocopy you'd have more jagged edges [Lynda:] It doesn't come out yeah. [Rod:] So you you are aware of that. [Lynda:] Do you charge for adverti for actual copy? [Rod:] Copy? No we wouldn't it's all paid for in there. The most important one. Once again the old colour code comes into operation. There's the there's the colour that Publications wants. And I've written one out there er just to give you an example. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And er hopefully John's making plenty of these out as well. Every sales consultant, as we call them now not reps, erm has his or her own unique number. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Each er assignment has a unique number. You just have to list out the erm adverts, position, advertiser, estate agent, town. Er what I've just described is a complete deal so that [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] is ticked down there and I'm not aware of what companies have special arrangements on estates. But I was on medical and BUPA hospitals had special arrangements where they didn't have to have a cheque and where didn't have to have a banker's order. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] What they did have to have was er an official company or order [Lynda:] I was going to say [Rod:] for two years' advertising. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] Bonuses are paid at proof stage. Every two months a list of ass er the numbers er of assignments that have been proofed comes round to the sales execs and that's when they can claim their bonuses. But they have to be claimed and they're not paid automatically. [Lynda:] Right so you're given a date on which you should claim them by do you? [Rod:] Yeah well as soon as that comes out on the list you can put in your claim the next [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] week. However a lot of people do leave them there. It's it's you don't forfeit them, it's safe, but they accumula er they they have a cumulative effect and you pay tax or what [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] You have to decide whether it's safer in your bank or ours [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] in terms of spending. [LAUGHTER] Spending. [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] A ninety day account you can't get access [LAUGHTER] to []. [Rod:] Well yeah that's it. In effect we're we're erm er we're safeguarding it for you if you want to. But it's entirely up to you. It's your money so [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] That's it. Any questions so far? [Lynda:] Not really it's quite self explanatory because I was wondering where you got the business and that from. Whether it was just totally cold calling or it's referrals or whatever. [Rod:] No. I what you'll find of course that a lot of assignments on estates now are resales. [Lynda:] Mhm. So you should be halfway through your battle if you're given an assignment erm that that is a resale Mhm. [Rod:] then you have all those already [Lynda:] Mhm. Within the first of contact. [Rod:] all those to go for. Those are the first ones you contact but you still have to sit down with one of the estate agents and say, Well look what sort of business do you give them? You know have you given have you been able to give business to these people because if you have that'll help me I understand [Lynda:] Oh yeah. [Rod:] I happen to understand mister advertising client that er you and the estate agent have been working very well together. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Yeah it's been great. And you'll get people of course who say it didn't work. [Lynda:] Mhm. Oh regardless you'll get people saying that. [Rod:] But they you'll also get a list a computerized list of these advertisers and the name to whom we sold [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] two years previously. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] So you don't go in you don't go in and say, Well you've you've advertised before who do I speak to? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] You you get Tim 's name if that's the guy on the computerized list and say that's who our contact was [Lynda:] Yes cos that's easy to round if there's only oh sorry that's the last name of contact we had. [Rod:] Absolutely. We dealt with him two years ago and we'd like to speak and and we're we're looking for a repeat [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Good. So can we calculate now when you can start? [Lynda:] Right er [Rod:] On the basis that er if if you've seen enough here now Lynda to to be persuaded, and I hope we have, persuaded you that you'd like to come in with us then you will be resigning at some time I guess. [Lynda:] I like advertising with a product I believe in so [Rod:] Okay. All right? [Lynda:] I'm halfway there. [Rod:] You're there. And I have to say it must be a benefit to have a partner who's also involved. [Lynda:] Mhm. Oh yeah. [Rod:] You can you can really help each other out. I've seen even two consultants who male consultants who live either part of erm er in Fife and one over here. They talk to each other and say, Well look I've got I've got this guy how did you approach that? It really in fact they do that more I think in estates than they do the other [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] And if you're erm do you reside at the same address? [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] That's all right. See how delicate [LAUGHTER] I'm going to be []. [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Erm then that has to be a help. [Lynda:] Yep. [Rod:] You've got erm your domestic [Lynda:] I was going to say as long as you don't both have two days [LAUGHTER] at the same time []. [Rod:] Well yes. Well that actually might help. If you had a down day the other one would say well okay I let's go [LAUGHTER] let's go and [] [Lynda:] Well this is it cos sales [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] drown our sorrows []. [Lynda:] Well you're either sort of scraping off the ceiling cos you're as high as a kite [Rod:] Yes. [Lynda:] or you're almost suicidal. [Rod:] Yes. [Lynda:] It's one extreme or the other. So [Rod:] Yeah I'm sure it is. Right so are we working four weeks from this week? [Lynda:] Erm no it's more likely to be a calendar month that she works on and fortunately February has four weeks in it this year for where our pay day is so I would be putting it in sort of like Feb first. [Rod:] So so March the first is about the time? [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. Now if that obviously we'd be delighted if you [Lynda:] Possibly before then but if I work on that then I can advise you [Rod:] Right. [Lynda:] of any changes. [Rod:] Yeah bring bring it forward if you delay it they get a bit edgy. Now March the first is a Tuesday. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] The course starts on a Monday. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] So can we say February the twenty eighth. [Lynda:] Mhm yeah. [Rod:] That's about that's gonna be about it. [Lynda:] Yeah it should be. [Rod:] There especially if you if you say well I'll take a day's holiday. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right? [Lynda:] Well what can they do about it. [Rod:] So February the twenty eighth.... this piece of paper.... It's a bit big for where it should be.... I know that has to be with that.... Now this is erm until the new documentation comes out this is this applies to er. At one time we used to start the training courses on on both wallets and folders on a Tuesday. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] It is now on Monday. So we're gonna put Monday twenty eight two ninety four today being the twenty fifth. On the Friday before which is the oh it will be the twenty fifth won't it? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] I would like you if you can read all there is there John er John's had the same documentation but it might be slightly different. And that is... okay er da de da de da... got to be changed but we it's because you're going on wallets. [Lynda:] Is the training course the same thing as what John was on in as much he had to get through the training course to get a position? [Rod:] Yes. No problem for you.... Yes I'm sorry that I'm having to scribe all this out but er the new documentation they've changed the erm... that's a Monday... sorry about this [Lynda:] That's okay. [Rod:] But I don't want any confusion it it is not the same as when John joined us. And the doc new documentation just wasn't quite available for me to bring with me. That's three that's da de da de da okay on the follow oh dear or dear me [LAUGHTER] get writer's cramp at this rate []. Thursday Friday... Now... just check put the new piece of paper yes Publications... Okay I'm just er bringing this up to date so Monday Tuesday Wednesday evenings in fact you need er sorry Sunday Monday and Tuesday okay. I think that's more or less it.... Sorry I've had to juggle that we've got some new documentation just being prepared for that but that's being er. If you can read this end to end [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Oh this does seem a bit silly but that's Monday to Wednesday now and that is Thursday and Friday. Will you understand what those abbreviations [Lynda:] Yes yes. [Rod:] are? Good I'm glad I've got a an intelligent person. And that's where you'll be. In fact that is now Sunday departing Wednesday.... Okay? [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Good. And the Parkwater is there. [Lynda:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? If you read that through I will be grateful. And there's one other thing that... expense form which I think is here good. This just lets you know that we will pay you travel costs to and from [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Okay? When you go out on territory which you do on the on the Thursday and Friday [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] with somebody [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] it may be that you have to stay away. [Lynda:] Right okay. [Rod:] All right? Wherever possible they try not to have that but you may have to stay away. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] We will pay your accommodation and a and a meal [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] to the value of thirty pound. If you do stay away I can tell you the trainer will know where you can get a deal like that. [Lynda:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay? [Lynda:] No problem. [Rod:] You sign to say that you understand that. If you stayed in a nice hotel for a hundred quid a night [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I'm afraid you will only get thirty. [Lynda:] Mm.... I'm going to put the A on it this time. And today's date's the twenty fifth. [Rod:] Now if you don't my me asking you've taken John's surname I guess have you or [Lynda:] No. [Rod:] is that just. Oh I beg your pardon. Sorry. Is that a coincidence or [Lynda:] What? [Rod:] You've both got the same surname yes? [Lynda:] No he's got I'm [Rod:] Oh I beg your pardon. You know I [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] There we go. Yes I suppose it sounded the same to me. Oh that's sorry that's your copy. [Lynda:] Right okay. [Rod:] Now that's that's yours. Yep. Now did you want to take this as well because normally we give the whole pack away [Lynda:] Yeah I wouldn't mind cos a lot of [Rod:] Yeah go on then. [Lynda:] the time I'm not seeing him. [Rod:] Yeah sure. Now I've got application form, expenses, my notes and I'll just write up there estates twenty eight two oh I must put wallets down here. Estate W twenty eight two. [Lynda:] So how many people are you expecting to recruit today then? [Rod:] Oh I should say four or five but across the different companies. [Lynda:] Mhm. I'm one. [Rod:] Yeah. [Lynda:] [LAUGHTER] This isn't fair. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] They're all [Lynda:] It's not fair. [Rod:] If I'd have said, By the way at the end of this I have to take your photograph it would've put you off. [Lynda:] I would've walked out I think. [Rod:] Okay. Well John knows you have to have that. You can smile. [Lynda:] He never told me this. [Rod:] Didn't he? [noise of camera] [Lynda:] Horror. [Rod:] Horror. Okay. Right erm good that's tidied everything up then. [Lynda:] Mhm. [Rod:] Thanks very much for coming over. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Interviews on Wednesday twenty sixth of January. Good discussions with Trevor. Right Trevor have you got your application form for me? [Trevor:] I have yes. I have it there somewhere. [Rod:] While I'm erm a look at that, I've got some brief notes here from Norman er you were with financial services for some time yeah? [Trevor:] Yes a few years. [Rod:] Twenty six? [Trevor:] Few years. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] Wow what a what a survivor. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] But erm I understand that er is it or? Have [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] made it very difficult for people. [Trevor:] Well it's I got the option to er I got the option to erm take a golden handshake so [Rod:] Oh right redundancy offered yeah. [Trevor:] Well not redundancy it was er what you call severance. [Rod:] Oh right okay. [Trevor:] It was cos it was change of contract. You'll see it in there [Rod:] Okay right. [Trevor:] and er and the the comments of me of me erm of me manager and me assistant manager [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] they didn't want me to go naturally. [Rod:] Mm you're you've made the decision have you? [Trevor:] Er I've made the decision I've gone [sniff] I've gone. [Rod:] Oh you've [Trevor:] Finished finished. [Rod:] All right. [Trevor:] So now I'm look for another erm job you see. [Rod:] Opportunity and er there aren't too many around unfortunately in the in the bracket of the fifties. [Trevor:] No I know. [Rod:] Which I'm in as well. Erm while I'm having a look at this although it wouldn't seem to me [LAUGHTER] to be taking too long [] to look at this Trevor, what you see on the table over there [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] is a a selection of product representing all six companies [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] that we have. Where we have erm er advertising consultants. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] If you'd like to have a a quick look through those while I'm er, please ask any questions while you're looking through, and I'll ask any questions that I'll need to here. [Trevor:] Right okay okay. [Rod:] Although in this case er since nineteen sixty eight [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] it erm not very much to ask you about is there? [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Not really. [Rod:] Mm. You've given a couple of reference here [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] and er you know I I read them fairly straightforward [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] er and you've put them under business references, are they businesses these? [Trevor:] Er no they're they're my mana who I used to who my boss. [Rod:] Ah right okay. [Trevor:] Okay. My my er just a minute now this one [Rod:] They're not on letter headings and so I just thought they might be [Trevor:] No no erm they're private okay. You know they're private really statements cos they don't want the you know they they [Rod:] Company used [Trevor:] they they're not allowed to say for the company. I mean you can still get a reference off me old company which er you know the London [Rod:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Er there's also a solicitor there as well. [Rod:] Okay. Some give some don't. [Trevor:] Yes that's right. But it was from the but they wouldn't they're not allowed see they're not allowed now see there's another LAUTRO [LAUGHTER] yeah yeah [] [Rod:] Oh yes [LAUGHTER] I know []. [Trevor:] They're not to write it on letter heading cos it means it says it's coming from the London. [Rod:] Yes okay. London er er in fact the insurance companies are fairly erm rigid on this now. Some won't just won't [Trevor:] Yes yes [Rod:] give them now. [Trevor:] Well the London is very rigid. You know what I mean. Er [Rod:] Right. I mean the fact that you've got them here er [Trevor:] They were they were rigid before the even the LAUTRO came in. D'ya know what I mean? [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] They were you know [Rod:] Now you're not from this part of the country by the sound of it? [Trevor:] No. No I've been I've been here a long time like [Rod:] You down in the Smo from the Smoke somewhere? [Trevor:] Er no no. I'm er Edmonton London. [Rod:] Oh that's what I meant. [Trevor:] Edmonton oh yes Smoke is it [Rod:] Smoke the Smoke is [Trevor:] I thought you meant the Midlands or something. [Rod:] No no no. The Smoke is another name for London. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Or was in my young young days anyway.... I see here you er say you've done door to door canvassing [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Er in what aspect in the financial services? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] When did you er where did you do that up here? [Trevor:] Yes. Up here yeah. We had an ongoing er thing you know what I mean that erm er now and again they used to have pushes and we used to out and do a little bit door [Rod:] Or what we what we call a blitz in some companies. [Trevor:] Yes that's right yeah yeah. [Rod:] All right. That entailed door to door canvassing then? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] How did you feel about that? [Trevor:] Oh I don't mind it I don't [LAUGHTER] mind it []. [Rod:] I mean there aren't many companies now that would er probably ask you [Trevor:] No no no. [Rod:] to do that. [Trevor:] No. We we er we used to do it like just for door openers really. [Rod:] Oh okay. [Trevor:] Door openers really cos there's that you know yeah yeah. I don't mind it. [Rod:] How do you think erm you're gonna face the er, you gonna get withdrawal symptoms from the financial services? [Trevor:] Not really no no. No I don't think so no. [Rod:] Looking forward to a change are you? [Trevor:] Well just yeah [Rod:] Mm mm. [Trevor:] yeah. I thought it was ch you know as a challenge so I thought I would go. [Rod:] Okay. Erm you received our corporate brochure and you got a certain amount of information from er from Norman on the phone. Erm what have you gleaned from the er the brochure? [Trevor:] Well that erm that what it is it's selling erm like to estate agents and that er printing material is that right? [Rod:] Well exactly what you see there on the. Well it's not no we don't sell the printed material [Trevor:] Yeah oh I see. [Rod:] we sell the advertising on the printed material. [Trevor:] Material. [Rod:] Or we supply the whole of that er those documents you see there. [Trevor:] So you're like a erm like a booklet or something like that that they want to present er for say the clients are you with me? If they're selling [Rod:] Well if you [Trevor:] a house or [Rod:] Er yes yes if you take er what you the products you see [Trevor:] Yep. [Rod:] down this end here on that table [Trevor:] Yep. [Rod:] you will see at the top the A four marketing folder [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] all right? Hope did you have a look in one of those? [Trevor:] Yes I did yeah. [Rod:] Okay inside you will see er a number of advertising spaces [Trevor:] Yep that's right. [Rod:] all right. Now our advertising consultants sell that space. [Trevor:] Oh I see. [Rod:] The folder itself is the free gift if you [LAUGHTER] like [] er to the estate [Trevor:] Yes oh I see [Rod:] agent which we provide. [Trevor:] I see. [Rod:] But the only way we can do that of course is to erm have some form of funding. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Now Norman would have er hopefully explained most that on the phone. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] The important thing for me to emphasize to you er Trevor is that we don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Certainly erm I don't know what Norman says, but I would say on the phone to you, Let's make it absolutely clear that this is er in the main a telesales operation. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But it's not like the local newspaper and it's not like having a group of young people on a bank of telephones phoning every [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] individual er business in sight [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Is that is that how it came across to you er through the brochure? [Trevor:] No no I thought it would be I thought it would be er out there meeting you know companies or whatever [Rod:] Mhm. [Trevor:] and er trying to market the their their the advertising in the brochure. [Rod:] Well it certainly is the advertising. But one of the things that we have discovered over twenty year is the only way you will get people to come into that brochure is to make absolutely certain before you go and see them is to [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] tell them everything. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Now in financial services that's why I'm homing in er it'll be a dramatic change for you erm what whatever you go to let alone advertising. Erm er we close on the phone. [Trevor:] Right I see. [Rod:] In other words er unlike financial services where you have to go and talk to people about their financial [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] state [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] financial health check I think one company calls it. Erm and then may be go away and calculate what er sort of deal they need [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] that it not the case here. We tell them the price because we know the price almost immediately. [Trevor:] I see. So erm that certainly is how I'm used to er I'm not like the London's a little bit different that other er financial services [Rod:] In in what respect? [Trevor:] Well that mostly you most people have this impression like that you do the er come away and then go back again. Right? [Rod:] I know I know lap stops exists now of course. [Trevor:] Yes that's right. Well what I mean we we don't do lap tops actually. Don't do [Rod:] What whichever. [Trevor:] But erm never mind. Er we do the sales sometimes on the first on most cases now on the first er interview. [Rod:] But that's still face to face you mean? [Trevor:] Yes face to face yeah. Erm most other companies I know do it on two interviews. [Rod:] Right yeah. [Trevor:] You know what I mean? Two interviews you know. So we we're used [Rod:] So you do the close [Trevor:] We're used to doing it up there and then you know. [Rod:] All right. [Trevor:] There and then. [Rod:] In fact er double glazing and kitchen people try to close on that first meeting but they [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] still have to do measurements they can't do it on the phone you see. [Trevor:] That's right yeah. [Rod:] So whereas most financial services people er that come to us erm would have put down here er as you have, er in answer to our question, Have you qualified sales by telephone? You've answered yes. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] What you've done is qualified appointments by telephone. Whereas we [Trevor:] Not always no not always [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] Okay well tell me no tell me please do because [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] our impression is and that's this is er people like yourself sitting there, is that er you will have qual you know you won't go and see people er unless [Trevor:] I have to qualify erm you see. Er you have to keep your costs down [Rod:] Right yes. [Trevor:] Okay you have to keep your cost down. Er I've qualified er people over the phone where it's a long distance. [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] Okay you know what I mean. Say if it's Washington here [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] from my place [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] like I er I [Rod:] You wouldn't get [Trevor:] I I don't want to run out there just to sit in a house [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] Are you with me you know what I mean? To do [Rod:] Oh I I couldn't agree more. [Trevor:] So I have to qualify people sometimes you know over the phone [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] that er [Rod:] So you so you know the principle I'm talking about there really. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. It still we still find it erm Trevor that er individuals, particularly from financial services [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] but that also includes double glazing all people who have had to view things [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] in front people. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Erm either financially or [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] the window size or the kitchen size or the bathroom size, they can't price things out until such times as they've sat down face to face with client. [Trevor:] Oh yeah yeah. [Rod:] Now we can. We tell people absolutely everything. Erm but let's ste let me step back a bit erm because I needed to emphasize that because you've spoken with somebody else [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] I wanted to check out what they say [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] because what I say on the phone I make it absolutely clear. A lot of people don't come face to face with me here [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] on on discussions on the basis of what I tell them on the phone. So I'm qualifying people on the phone I guess. [Trevor:] That's right yeah. [Rod:] Anyway let's er let's er talk about what er the purpose of today's discussions, and you notice I don't use the word interview. [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] Er as far as I'm concerned er it's a self employed position I'm not offering quote a job [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] unquote. It's a business opportunity. Er however erm if we get past the three stages that er I'm just talking about here, er we'll be talking about in the minute at least, er then er you'll fully understand what I mean about er you're almost as as employed as you'll ever be as a self employed person. Because we do guarantee continuity of assignments. [Trevor:] Oh I see. [Rod:] So nobody sits at home saying, I wonder when my next assignment's coming from. [Trevor:] Oh I see. [Rod:] You know. Finish one on a Friday and you'll start a new one on the Monday [Trevor:] Right I see. [Rod:] or whatever day of the week it is. Er let's have a look at what we're we're er the meetings here to discuss. First of all it's erm an opportunity for us to find out a bit more about each other. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] You about the company erm whether it was Joe Bloggs or Rod sitting here [LAUGHTER] who represents the company [], and and yourself. Er fairly easy to determine what your background's been for the last [LAUGHTER] twenty six years [] er and I have to say that's quite unusual these nowadays, particularly in financial services. So you're a survivor Trevor and I admire that in anybody. But what we're er er [Trevor:] I've been through the changes. [Rod:] Oh yes of course [Trevor:] I've been through the changes. I mean [Rod:] It's almost like changing jobs in fact. [Trevor:] It is and I mean it gonna change again so I thought well this is the opportunity to have a change [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] You know what I mean? Er I think twenty six years er they made it er they made it, you know. I mean er I pe I advise people on financial things [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] so I see the opportunity to [LAUGHTER] financial [] [Rod:] I guess erm with all the contacts you've made over the years you're still gonna have phone calls from people to say er what deal have you got for me this week or whatever? [Trevor:] That's right I have. [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] I've start [Rod:] How how are you going to cope with those? [Trevor:] Aye? [Rod:] How will you cope with those? Just pass them on to some friend of yours or? [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Or still [Trevor:] I'm already doing that [Rod:] or still do them in the evening? [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] No no no. [] [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] You've got to have a licence now. [Rod:] Oh of course you have. [Trevor:] and you see you're allowed to comment if you haven't got that licence now. So you've got to be [Rod:] Okay so it would be illegal for you to erm [Trevor:] Comment. [Rod:] comment if I asked you for some advice? [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] So you can't see me is that it? [] [Trevor:] You must you must only erm advise people on your product. [Rod:] Oh okay. [Trevor:] Your product. [Rod:] Right I understand. Okay first of all er what we need you and I to decide is whether is a platform for you to continue to earn [Trevor:] Right yeah yeah. [Rod:] erm some good money. And er once we've past that hurdle the other two are fairly easy. Er and the second one is which company we think, we, you and I think, that you'd feel most comfortable working within. [Trevor:] Right yeah. [Rod:] Because here we have six companies. I have the luxury as a recruiter on this occasion to say when when Trevor walks through the door I can offer him a position er if all things being equal erm in any of those companies. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But there are certain companies I know that individuals will slot into. But I always like to hear er you know, what their opinion is. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] The second thing er sorry that was the second thing. Er which company. And the third thing is when. Now erm reading er the back here it looks as though you are available like immediately. [Trevor:] Correct. [Rod:] And that's what we do on the spot here today. Er we don't hide behind regret letters. So in other words you don't go out that door without a decision. [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] Now that's a bit of a change for a recruiter to have to do that. Yes I've had one or two upset people go out of the door I must admit. They haven't [LAUGHTER] nobody's hit me yet []. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] But I will know fairly quickly if erm if their background is a bit iffy they have to really sell themselves to me. How in the last twenty six years do you feel that you've got on with people in general? In the job you were doing? [Trevor:] Very well. Very well. I get on [Rod:] What what [Trevor:] with all ty I get on with all types of people, that's why I think I like you know er I like people. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] I like people of all sorts. [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] I can mix with you know all sorts. High you know people of high station [Rod:] Good. [Trevor:] or you know, or wherever. [Rod:] Have you got any preconceived ideas of people er who may work within those environments you've got there. Estate agents, medical practices, schools, golf clubs, area health authorities? [Trevor:] Well the only pre precon preconceived idea I have is [Rod:] Mhm. [Trevor:] erm most of the people that you probably meet will be in business. So you've got to present yourself on a business level. [Rod:] Yep. [Trevor:] You know what I mean? Erm the danger is I think when I first started meeting people, right, you know [Rod:] Yes. In doing it. [Trevor:] When I started meeting people, even previous to the job I was in, right? er you tend to get too too friendly and not keep it on a on a business basis like. [Rod:] Yes. You've just mentioned, you're absolutely right of course, [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] everybody you meet except for individuals who work for those er types of companies will be business people. The only people the only er organizations to come into erm the products you see there who are not business people but they are linked, er are charities. [Trevor:] Yes oh I see that yes. [Rod:] So they would be private individuals doing voluntary work. But in this financial services field of course in the main were you doing private [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] finance? Or or [Trevor:] No businesses as well. [Rod:] Businesses. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. A good mix or? [Trevor:] Yes very very good mix yes yes. [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] In fact a lot of our you know a lot a lot of the their their the type of business I was in, right? they wanted the erm home service companies but I also branched out because I've always been connected. You'll see [Rod:] Company pension schemes? [Trevor:] Yes company pension schemes and all that. So you have to er put your your presentation properly to those sort of people you know. [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] It's you it's no good going along and then saying to your er doing your presentation right when you get there. [Rod:] Right okay. [Trevor:] You can do that in a private house. [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] But you've got to your homework first. [Rod:] In in terms of going to a business yeah. I mean what else what what sort of size pension fund would you have been negotiating with a a business? [Trevor:] Well er what ten ten [Rod:] Okay. So it's the smallest [Trevor:] It's the smallest type of businesses yeah. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] We haven't really er when it got up to the bigger businesses we used to [Rod:] That came out of your hands? [Trevor:] That came out of my hands. [Rod:] Did you get any credit for that? Financially? [Trevor:] Er yes. Little little bit. Yes. Not as much [Rod:] As you thought you should have [Trevor:] But it it you you got lost off after it goes over twenty. So when it gets over twenty then you've got to er pass it on to er a erm [Rod:] What somebody who's [Trevor:] company pension scheme. You know. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] They they can set up a pension er [Rod:] Right okay. [Trevor:] company pension scheme. But underneath that it's more [Rod:] It's more on an individual basis [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] with the with the business taking the money out each month of their salary or? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] Or free pensions. [Rod:] All right? [Trevor:] So you can have free pensions. So you can set up a scheme [Rod:] Do they still have non-contributory pension schemes around the country? [Trevor:] Yes yes they still [Rod:] Really? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Oh. [Trevor:] And the company pays for that. [Rod:] And of course you can transfer that now can't you? [Trevor:] Yes yes. There's there's [Rod:] Now I lost out when I was [Trevor:] It's changing drastically now and and erm er I mean I've kept up to date with it now [Rod:] Yes sure. [Trevor:] I'm up to date and I can see it's going to change in the future really. [Rod:] Yes cos I when I was with B P for six years, a non-contributory pension scheme, I lost every you know [Trevor:] You would've. [Rod:] Er [Trevor:] And you can get your money out. Whereas now it's locked in. See it's locked in now. [Rod:] I've got a I've got a thirty two buyout with a company [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] You'll know what that is of course. [Trevor:] Yes I do yeah. [Rod:] Good. Trevor how do you feel about what erm you've heard on the phone from Norman seen in the er brochure seen the products there listened to what erm I have to say about how we qualify people. Without me going into any other detail what do you think about if you'll fit in? [Trevor:] Yes I'll [Rod:] You feel confident about it? [Trevor:] Yes I feel confident yes. [Rod:] Erm because [Trevor:] Telephone and you know. I'm used to [Rod:] Well that's [Trevor:] I'm used to talking to peo you know talking to people and drawing people out. Because that's the answer it is. [Rod:] Well we certainly have to draw them out when when [Trevor:] Especially over the phone. [Rod:] trying to tell them that they they must of course need in fact to spend two and a half thousand pound on a full page in a medical practice booklet er for two years, you've gotta be [LAUGHTER] punchy on the phone [] haven't you Trevor? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] I experienced the medical practice side, I went out for two or three assignments to to get a feel for it and it's doable. But it's only doable, I'm afraid that's an Americanism that's crept into our language, doable, erm only if you listen to the people who've been doing it. And all I what my my parting statement to most people, although I'll say it right now because I've [LAUGHTER] started it [], erm is that if you're prepared to listen to the advice given by the people who've been doing er selling advertising in these environments [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] then you you you're on a winner. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] If you don't listen if you go back to old traditional styles or the style you are used to [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Because you know what they accuse us people in our fifties of not being able to do? [Trevor:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] Adapting for change. [Rod:] Adapting for change. [Trevor:] Yes I think that's what they say. [Rod:] Erm if ever I say if ever get a [LAUGHTER] fifty year old in front of me [] I say, Hey let's prove them wrong. It's er and I have to listen to people. I've been in traditional sales. Good. Okay Trevor well let's get that that that hurdle out of the way and say you and I agree that. [Trevor:] Now you er in brief we've had a description. What environment do you think, trying to read my my mind, which do you think would be a comfortable area for you to be with? There are two or three in fact.... I like the brochure. [Rod:] The [Trevor:] I like brochures. I like [Rod:] You mean booklets or the [Trevor:] Yeah these [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] these and those over there. [Rod:] Okay. What about up in the corner there there's er Cos what we've launched into in the last er nine months very heavily er [Trevor:] No I don't fancy the schools. [Rod:] You don't fancy the schools. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [Rod:] Oh right. What what er as a matter of interest why? Because it's er you know more or less the same as estate agents in terms of look alike. [Trevor:] Well erm I don't know. It's probably what you can talk about. You know what I mean? [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] Erm [Rod:] Well tell me what you think you can talk about or can't talk about in schools. [Trevor:] Well er education I you know I'm not up on er [Rod:] Remem remember no remember what you're doing. [Trevor:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] Remember. Remember what you're doing [Trevor:] Yeah [Rod:] selling advertising space. [Trevor:] Yes that's right yeah yeah. [Rod:] The only difference between all of those six companies [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] is the environment you work in and the major benefit that you'll be putting over to the [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Okay. So nothing to do with whether you're educated [Trevor:] No no. [Rod:] All right. All you're do you're sit sitting in an office, not as luxurious as this necessarily at some time, selling advertising to. Okay what, let's talk about the medical practice booklets. What do you think you'll be able to talk about there? That's one you pointed out right? [Trevor:] Yeah yes. The medical booklet I mean I would I er I think I believe in that you see. I think you've got to believe in a product [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] really to or in an area [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] to really sort of er I'm not closed. You know I'm not closed for any area because erm er I adapt I've adapted to change you know. I've adapted to change cos I wouldn't have [LAUGHTER] stopped in [] in the job I was in. [Rod:] Oh absolutely yes. [Trevor:] I wouldn't have stopped in the job I was in. [Rod:] Yes certainly the changes in the financial services arena has have have [Trevor:] Oh well [Rod:] been been numerous haven't they? [Trevor:] To what twenty six year ago it was just nonsensical you know. [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] I mean when I started the job it wasn't the job [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Yes okay. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] It was just a mundane job. [] [Rod:] Just a mundane job yeah. [Trevor:] But now it's it's highly professional which I've come through the stages [Rod:] Almost technical now I think. [Trevor:] Yes yes technical. And you've got to know what you're talking about if not people will find holes straight away. [Rod:] Okay. All right well look I I you've er sort of selected and I I've got no problem with that although schools er I would have thought was ideal for as well as medical. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] I wouldn't put you in estate agents. [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] I'd be quite frank with you. [Trevor:] Wouldn't you? [Rod:] No. Now now we've been doing this for twenty years and I've got a I've got a feel for [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I've I've got a feel for people who go in. [Trevor:] Yes all right okay. [Rod:] Whereas the medical and schools I wouldn't have thought you'd have any problem with. All right. But you have a fee if if you're not happy with going into the schools environment [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I might as well suggest one that you would be happy with and that's medical. Shall we talk about those? [Trevor:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] Okay what I have is a starter pack [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] sorry starter pack, it's an information pack. If you could draw closer er Trevor I need to show you some papers okay?... Have to get that documentation out the way because I've a habit of of giving things back to people that I'm supposed to keep. This is for you to take all your you know bumph away. Now erm once again I'm relying on the information that Norman would have given you in describing how we go about setting the assignments up. [Trevor:] Yeah right. [Rod:] And it's important for me to clear that side of it on the basis that you have no responsibility for setting the assignments up. You don't go round the country knocking on doors to get the assignments. That's our responsibility. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] You literally get a phone call to say er we're coming to the end of this assignment here's your next one. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right. And you just finish one go to another one. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Did that come across to you er in whatever we said or or done so far? [Trevor:] No no it didn't. No. [Rod:] All right. [Trevor:] So you work on one assignment at a particular time? [Rod:] Yes you work [Trevor:] You you don't go from er you you're not you haven't got like ongoing assignments three or four at the same time? [Rod:] No you have we ask you to concentrate on one. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? So if we if in Crooke where you live [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] you had er the Crooke surgery [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] You would work on that for two to three weeks and then we may send you to Chester-le-Street [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] er or a surgery in so [Trevor:] Or Washington hospital? [Rod:] finish that whenever no no hospitals you don't go anywhere near hospitals. [Trevor:] Do you not? [Rod:] No [Trevor:] Oh I see [Rod:] No. It is purely the medical centre or medical surgery. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay? Now part of the er exercise which the marketing exec does when he or she round to the surgeries is to provide them with a certain amount of information of course. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] They sign the contract to take our product for four years. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? We sell the advertising in the booklet every two years. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So the advertisers come in for two years. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Whatever we tell them on the phone is always per annum and we have to be. There's one contract we sign with the advertiser but it is always er any price you quote is per annum. [Trevor:] Per annum right. [Rod:] See see how important it is to tell everybody everything [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] on the phone. [phone rings] Excuse me. [banging] Hello. Oh fine.... Okay thank you very much indeed thank you bye. [Trevor:] Still working is it? [Rod:] Yeah well it's no well that sort of... it is that pho that sort of phone call really have waited. Never mind. Fine. Erm yes it is still working amazingly.... Right so let me make that clear again. Er we we have we just make sure that everything is told to the prospect on the phone. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So marketing department have signed them up. Er they leave them certain pieces of information er like this for instance and it's only er an example. There is a special one for the medical side. [Trevor:] Right okay. [Rod:] They leave a list with that the surgery and say please will you compile a list of businesses [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] business contacts that you're happy for us to approach. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Now the important thing about this document is that you'll receive it on the day the first day of your assignment. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] And the temptation is to look at that list and say wonderful I can start phoning prospects that the doctors have already lined up for me. [Trevor:] Mm yeah. [Rod:] Wrong. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Right yeah. [] [Rod:] You sit down with whomever [Trevor:] Homework sort of [Rod:] your contact is [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] at the surgery. Remember their contact demands that they provide you with an office desk and telephone facility for three weeks [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] while you do the assignment, or at least up to three week. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] And it's important to get as much information as you possibly can [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] about those businesses. [Trevor:] Right yes. [Rod:] All right. Because if you just picked up the phone and and er contacted erm a residential home [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] they would say, Well who's this doctor that you what what is this surgery [Trevor:] That's right. [Rod:] Er it could be that it's just a contact [phone rings] Hello. Yep.... Er just a sec just had eleven o'clock as well so. Okay yep thanks very much bye. And er so it's important to get information about those interview calls. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Now erm [Trevor:] That's the that's erm person who's going to advertise in the actual brochure? [Rod:] Well these these these businesses are recommendations. [Trevor:] Yeah that's great. [Rod:] Now if the doctors [Trevor:] So say for instance there the doctors recommended er a newsagent well a newsagent [Rod:] Well chemist. They're likely to be medically related in the main. [Trevor:] Well do oh I see. [Rod:] But it could be the local newsagent where they get all their [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] doctor medical er documents from er medical journals from. [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] Erm yes. It is unlikely but I have seen er er one or two advertised in the er but but they will they are unlikely to put that on their list because they wouldn't think about it. [Trevor:] No I see. [Rod:] They they will prejudge [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] who they think will go in. [Trevor:] I see yeah. [Rod:] and so will you probably. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] And the important thing is to [Trevor:] Oh yeah well I don't do that. [Rod:] Well [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Don't do that. [] [Rod:] what I'm suggesting [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] don't fall into that category. [] [Rod:] even people who've sold advertising space [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] who've sat opposite me [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] er would say, Well surely they wouldn't go. Well I'll show I'll show you this is just a small list of categories of advertisers and you would not even start to think about some of those. These are for estate agents [Trevor:] Yes that's right yeah. [Rod:] If I asked if I asked you to compile a list of advertisers of companies and businesses who you think will advertise in a medical practice booklet you may you may list out twenty five. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] At the latest count it was at least a hundred and fifty. [Trevor:] Yeah yeah that's right. [Rod:] Okay? So anybody [Trevor:] The market's wide. [Rod:] anybody is worth go having a go for. [Trevor:] The market's wide. [Rod:] Yeah. However, that's a document that will certainly start you er you know start the ball rolling. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] When you arrive at the assignment there are a number of documents inside the envelope waiting for you. We do not send information to your home. It always goes to the practice manager. Cos that's another way of telling [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] erm the surgery that you're on the way. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But it does include that document. There are one or two others but I just bring that along as a. That tells the surgery and and the staff there exactly why you're there. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] What you're doing. It might not be obvious to everybody you see. [Trevor:] No that's right. That keeps them happy that er [Rod:] Yes and it's another demonstration of the professionalism which we're er rather well known for. Okay. Here for you to take away are a couple examples. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right. And I'm just want to draw your attention very quickly and I will emphasize that a lot of the information you're hearing from me are in a brief sense, will be more than adequately covered when [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] you get to a training to the training school. They er there are just three sizes of ads that we have to [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] worry about here and there's an example of each each one of them. [Trevor:] Full page. [Rod:] Full page half and a quarter. We used to split the quarter into eight but we we it was too fiddly. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] For the amount of er money that er people were going to pay. And because we've got three sizes we've got in effect three prices. Which is another thing that you [LAUGHTER] you know [] it makes life easy. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Except that we can on a full page sell up because there are a couple of premium slots like the one you see there inside [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] front cover. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] If you can home in on the fact that a full page is one thousand pounds per year for two years then it locks in. [Trevor:] Right yeah. [Rod:] Because if you er start thinking erm three hundred and ninety for a quarter page and move up [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] then you've lost the opportunity for a full page [Trevor:] Yeah that's right. [Rod:] if you can sell that. Let me just show you a give you [Trevor:] Works the same with the insurance business. [Rod:] I'm sure it does. [Trevor:] Yeah. You start at the top [Rod:] You'll always [Trevor:] you always start at the top. [Rod:] That's tru that's the only part may be of traditional sales that you [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Okay. [] [Trevor:] It's no good starting at the bottom and going up because then you've lost the the punch haven't you. [Rod:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] You've lost the punch. [Rod:] Yes yeah. You've lo lost all the opportunities to make [LAUGHTER] yourself [] a bit more money which is what we're talking about here. When our marketing er executive goes round to the surgery one of the one of the things erm he he or she will determine with the with the practice is the number of booklets we're going to print. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] And the way that's determined is er they have to declare the number of patients they have registered. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Now if it's a fifteen thousand patient list all right? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] that represents in some way erm about three to one. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] So we home in on five thousand booklets. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Right. Now five thousand booklets internally will create a target of eight thousand pounds for that assignment. [Trevor:] Right I see. [Rod:] Because that's a large practice. Fifteen thousand patients. If you if you look at these scales here [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] you can see [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] what the relationship between the [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] and the [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? Now that target internally is is a figure for us to be working on back at the camp. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] It will be identified on the documentation you receive on your day one. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] However what we don't want er our consultants to get in paranoid about if they don't get that target. If they don't there is a cutoff point at which we know all our production costs all our er administration costs and all commissions we we will have covered. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? But only internally do we know that. You won't [LAUGHTER] nor would I []. [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] I've been out there and I still didn't know what erm but they will er if if you're struggling on any assignment they will not let you struggle for day in day out. They will say are you are you sure you've got as much as you possibly can [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] fine come on out. That means [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] that we've probably got enough money f to print. [Trevor:] Yeah that's right. [Rod:] So that's just for your per your personal pride I suppose is to try and get that because [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] somebody's put a target for you on it. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Very achievable in this area. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Now I'd like you to home in in relationship to whatever target you've got there erm you can relate or you needn't, but that five thousand pound is the start point for fifteen percent bonuses. There's a small one in between but I always home in on that one there. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] If you sell er whatever you sell above five thousand pound advertising sales [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] you will get fifteen percent extra on. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So if you sold six thousand pounds [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] right? you would get another fifteen percent on top of your five hundred pounds. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Whatever you got for that. Okay? So you're entitled to bonuses. They will work out you know they they on on the training course they will show you more examples of that. I'd like to point out that all erm bonuses are paid at proof stage. All right? And I'll explain why in a minute. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Okay but if you can remember that. There the prices and you'll see that a full page is a thou well I'll tell you a full page is a thousand pound but we have two premium slots which we charge more for. That inside front cover costs twelve hundred pound. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] If it was anywhere else in the book other than page two it would cost a thousand. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Inside front and back cover is twelve hundred pound that's [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] inside the back cover. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Page two the next one in from here [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] is eleven hundred [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] and any any other position [Trevor:] Is a thousand. [Rod:] is a thousand. [Trevor:] I see. [Rod:] Now [Trevor:] So you think that that's the most prominent er positions [Rod:] Oh it oh it is in any magazine [Trevor:] Yeah. It's the first two and the back. [Rod:] We have er us humans have a habit of looking where we [Trevor:] yeah I see. [Rod:] And it's one of those things. It it's an acknowledged in in all advertising not just. Let me er just oh incidentally you're allowed to have ten pou er ten percent on the spot discount if you need it. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Now if you're if somebody becomes a persistent discounter first of all they'll they'll question it back at head office. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Secondly you'll be creating a bit of inconveniencing to the person who comes back er back in two year's time to resell. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Because they will always want the same price that [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] er unless you can persuade them of course costs have gone up. There are a couple of examples of how we make up erm the earnings. If you sold to the target on a on a revenue there of a two and a half thousand, which is one of the smaller surgeries, we will pay thirty percent on all of that right? [Trevor:] Mm. [Rod:] So that represents that amount there. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] If there's a small bonus then which in fact pays the petrol for the assignment probably, er providing the Government don't put another twenty P on a [LAUGHTER] litre or gallon [] or whatever. Erm there's a small one there which will help towards costs. However it's the bigger one that we we always home in on. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] So if you just sold to that at a small surgery that's what your earnings would be. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] And quite honestly that would be achieved in two weeks probably. We would hope. If you've got a bigger surgery which may break into that third week [Trevor:] Yea. [Rod:] then you can see that you'll start earning substantially more. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Because of the bonuses. [Trevor:] So after the person's initially contacted the person we go into their surgery right? [Rod:] Yeah. [Trevor:] And it's up to us to negotiate what the potential amount they want. [Rod:] No. [Trevor:] To [Rod:] No it's no no. All all you have to worry about is selling the advertising. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Don't think about anything else any other responsibility. [Trevor:] Right okay. [Rod:] That's done. You don't negotiate who much that's done by the marketing group. [Trevor:] Right okay. [Rod:] These these these er targets would be identified on the er on the documents you get [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] of your assignment. Okay? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Right. Now I'll let you take that you can take that away obviously to to study. [Trevor:] That's it right. [Rod:] We'll pay all those commissions and bonuses [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] providing you do one or two small bits of administration for us. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] And we really have kept this down a barest minimum. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Cos we know sales people generally don't like paperwork but I know in financial circles you will have had to have done [Trevor:] Doesn't mean doesn't [LAUGHTER] worry me []. [Rod:] No. [Trevor:] Doesn't worry me cos it [Rod:] No if it's the one thing I know that I don't have to concern myself with as far as financial services is [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] concerned is the small amount of paperwork all right. [Trevor:] And we have to we always read the small print [LAUGHTER] as well. We're always saying to us what's this down here. [Rod:] All right. What I why I was emphasizing earlier on how important it is to get all this over on the telephone. You must if if you're scared if you have any doubts about putting the price of that over the phone then forget doing this. Because in advertising it'll all be done. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Except when you're negotiating multimillion companies. [Trevor:] D'ya is it is it advisable over the phone then to mention the price first or is it better to go into the to the er to the er [Rod:] There's a lot of reaction [Trevor:] description description of what they're gonna put in [Rod:] Yeah. [Trevor:] first [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] to get the cement job and then sort of say to the [Rod:] Yeah. Certainly you would er the other aspect you don't even mention your the company's name. You will only ever say that you are [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] er working with the Crooke surgery to bring together their their new practice booklet or to erm [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] re resell their new practice booklet. Erm the doctors who've identified you as as a company they would be very happy to see er supporting this venture and er I've I've I'm cont contacting you with a view of of outlining what we do [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] it's advertising er it's er de da. But they'll teach you that on the er [Trevor:] Yes yes that's right. [Rod:] on the training course or guide you through it on the training course. The important thing is that there is a lot of preamble because the guy's bound to say erm and even if he doesn't ask you what the price is you must make sure he knows. [Trevor:] Yes yes. [Rod:] See that's against traditional sales techniques. In effect. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Yes that's right. [Rod:] It is really. [Trevor:] Yes yes. [Rod:] You know if the guy doesn't ask the ask the price fine. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Let's get all the get the sound, now will you buy this and this is the price you can't do it with advertising. [Trevor:] No right. [Rod:] And I'll show you two or three things on on this contract which will if you presented to them face to face during the during the discussions they would they would use it as an excuse to say, You didn't tell me that I don't want to do it. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] And I'll show you [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] This incidentally is a contract which is the same for all of our companies. [Trevor:] Right okay then. [Rod:] Unless you're colour blind you can see all the different [LAUGHTER] colours [] [Trevor:] Yeah yes [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] there []. [Trevor:] That's right yeah. And in the red is the most important bit is it? [Rod:] These these will be explained [Trevor:] Yes yes. [Rod:] in more to you [Trevor:] That's the piece we've got to tell the customer I can see that I can see that. [Rod:] All right. It is [Trevor:] It reads forms you know we read forms [LAUGHTER] that way [] cos normally [Rod:] Yeah well they wouldn't be in a different colour if they weren't vital to us. [Trevor:] No that's right. Yeah. [Rod:] And and these are the things that they will, one or two of the things, they'll use any excuse under the sun, but these are the things if you don't point them out to them. Er first of all you will tell them that we want a contract. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] You must tell them on the phone after telling them the price and what it's all about you say, Right when I come round tomorr er whenever to er strike up the deal with you I want the contract signed I need a thirty five percent of the first year's payment as a deposit cheque. [Trevor:] Right yes right okay. [Rod:] Okay? If you notice the significant of that significance of that figure it covers your commission cos that's what we pay. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] If we we pay thirty percent as you [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] know for all assignments up to a hundred miles away from home. Thirty five percent if it's further away. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? And we we make sure we cover ourselves. That's why we can pay you all commissions the following week. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? You must tell them that the balance of the first year's payment will be taken out through a banker's order. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Now if you don't tell them that on the phone they'll use the banker's order, ah now you didn't tell me Trevor that I had to sign a banker's order isn't er [Trevor:] Cos some people are frightened er er [Rod:] Oh sure yeah [Trevor:] er er they don't want to do that. [Rod:] It's a commitment you see. [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] See how important it is? And the other thing is that the second year's payment is taken out a year's later through the same banker's order. In fact that's a sales pitch. Now you don't have to pay for all this up front we take in stages. [Trevor:] Right yeah. [Rod:] That's [Trevor:] Can can come it can come against your business expenses [Rod:] Mm or the [Trevor:] or up against the practice you see. This is [Rod:] Yes yeah they can [Trevor:] this is where they can claim it isn't it you know. [Rod:] Yes I mean advertising is [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] claimable you can get your V A T back er [Trevor:] That's right. [Rod:] certainly. We need a signature one signature on unless of course the company says that two people have got to sign it but you have to find that out. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] If two people have got to sign the cheque two people have got to sign the banker's order. All [Trevor:] Mm. [Rod:] these things unless you tell them [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] they'll say, Now there's two people on a cheque [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] oh is the other guy here? No he's away on holiday for a week or two weeks so that's blown the whole thing. If you and you you've chased your tail. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] It's unlikely that the guy can even come in because he's partner's away for two to three weeks holiday [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] and your deadline. See how important it is? And they will outline on the course a a number of other things of course that they'll blow you out for. So there are three things we want from er to er for a complete deal. That's one and then the cheque is one of them. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] The other of course we have to know what they want in the... we want to know what they want in their ad. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Now in the main they've all all our advertisers have advertised somewhere. Either [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Yellow Pages or some of the local journals or whatever and will have a copy in existence which we can use. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But once again on the phone you have to tell them that's what you want to discuss when you come round. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Contract cheque banker's order, have you got any copy mister advertiser, yes fine we will be happy to accept that if it's er suitable for you. Er [Trevor:] What happens if he says well I want to alter it a little bit? [Rod:] Okay fine no problem no cost. [Trevor:] So in other words he comes round and he says I I don't want that there I want a little bit put there [Rod:] Er telephone number's changed and I want [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] I want er that I want up there. [Trevor:] Or this is out now I'm not [Rod:] That's right. [Trevor:] doing that [Rod:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] and I'm I'm yeah and I'm I've got a new mob er a new [Rod:] We can do all this. [Trevor:] Right okay yeah yeah. [Rod:] We can we can er take photographs. [Trevor:] And you do that on the computer do you? [Rod:] Yeah that's [Trevor:] Yes yeah yeah you rearrange it. [Rod:] Well in fact it's a bit more sophisticated than that. We can do all anything they want and it's free of charge. It's all included in the cost of the ad. Even if there no ad exists, and I've had one or two where there's been no ad [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] they're advertising for the first time or the last ad [Trevor:] Or you can have a copy of somebody else's do you? [Rod:] Er oh we've got thousands to show people if if you need them. [Trevor:] That's what I'm saying yeah yeah. [Rod:] Certainly you'll have a series [Trevor:] So if somebody'll say well I like that one for my par particular business you know [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] with the houses on or something like that yeah [Rod:] That's right. No problem. Oh no we've got plenty of designs. Twenty years of doing ads we're be able to have a few. This space down here, if if the copy exists you just attach it. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] It says er I think it says copy attached somewhere. [Trevor:] Yeah that's it. [Rod:] Copy there. If nothing er exists we we just tick that box we compose and you'll have notes down here [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] They will tell you on the training course how to do that. If it's copy to come it's a pity because you know that's that's not a complete deal. [Trevor:] Yeah you haven't cemented the er [Rod:] I never sent any of those in. [Trevor:] No no. [Rod:] I waited until the end of the week and said well erm you know. I I would even take I have to say I would even take a erm [Trevor:] An existing one. [Rod:] an existing one. Cost otherwise otherwise it's er it messes up your commission thing. That's that's the things we want er [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Trevor and then if you've got all those bits and pieces together send them in at the end of the week using this commission claim form. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Every sales consultant has his or her own unique number. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So does every assignment. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] We just put down the size of the ad the advertiser the practice the town. What I've just described there a f is a full and complete contract and you tick down there. Now there are some organizations that have negotiated with that do not that do not need the banker's order and the cheque. And that is a typical one BUPA hospitals. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But there's a list in the training manual which you take away. You just have to have an official order [Trevor:] So would it be feasible then one two three four five six, would it be feasible that er you'll have had six assignments to have done that week? [Rod:] Er no. One assignment six advertisers you mean? [Trevor:] Oh six advertisers I see. [Rod:] Yeah that's one only you're only con remember you're only doing one assignment. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? That's the assignment you're working on [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] and those are the six advert this is one of my own commission claim forms. [Trevor:] Yeah that's right. [Rod:] I had six I had five advertisers go in. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Those will all be represented by the five complete deals contracts and everything, all right? [Trevor:] Going in different books. [Rod:] Mm? No no no one book. Home in [Trevor:] Oh I see oh I see. I see yes. [Rod:] Yes. That's only you're only working on one one book at one time. Erm and erm and then obviously that's something round in the region of what we're looking for. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] I I mentioned earlier on that bonuses are paid at proof stage. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] All right? Now that is the next stage at which we get money from the the client. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Remember we've got the thirty five percent deposit cheque [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] we've got the banker's order [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] so when the when the proof lands on his desk of his ad for authorization we're taking the balance out [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] for the first year. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] That's when you can claim your bonuses on that assignment. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Every two months a list of assignments which have been proofed completed [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] that you are entitled to claim bonus on, if you are entitled, will be sent to the sales execs. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All you have to do is look down for the B numbers, now [Trevor:] Mm [Rod:] that's one of mine from your personal records and you can claim your bonus. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] There are two reasons why we we say it must be claimed. One they'll never be know precisely the date that they're being proofed [Trevor:] No. [Rod:] All right? And secondly a lot of er a number of consultants want to leave their bonuses in to accrue during the year. Take out [Trevor:] Oh I see. [Rod:] in one lump sum. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] It's not forfeited if you don't claim it. You're you're entitled to claim it as soon as you're entitled to er as soon as it's been proofed. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But it's up to you. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] All right? So you we won't pay it automatically and if you don't claim it and you've missed it that's I'm afraid hard luck. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] But let me tell you your personal records [LAUGHTER] will show exactly [] how much you're due to have paid. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Any questions so far? [Trevor:] No no. [Rod:] You've got it fixed in your mind you're only doing one assignment you know. [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] These advertisers are just going in one book. [Trevor:] Right right right. [Rod:] Okay? [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Right you know if you've got any questions now er this is the stage at which we agree on a date for you to start. [Trevor:] No. No questions. No questions. [Rod:] Well certainly my job is to just outline briefly what we do. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] Erm when you get to the training course [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] you'll have a lot more opportunity to see what goes on. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] All right. And er the trainer on medical practices has been out there for a long long time doing this so there's a lot a wealth of experience there. Okay well on your application form you said there's no reason why you can't start straight away. And can I just explain how we go about the course. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] First of all it's fully expensed by us. We pay your expenses [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] there and back and the hotel while you're in all right. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Er medical practices er which is the company, erm do it slightly different than other er the other companies in for training. They send their prospective consultants out for two days before they come into head office for the three day training. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So you're first erm port of call will be with er a trainer [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] for two days on the Thursday and Friday. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] So we're talking about a start date of next Thursday. [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Is that all right with you? Any problems? [Trevor:] Well er I'd like I'd still like time to er think about it you know. Think about it. [Rod:] Erm well as I said to you today one of the things that you know [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] ninety nine out of a hundred people go out there and they they've we've fixed a date to start and then [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] what er if you have to think about it what's your doubts? [Trevor:] Pardon? [Rod:] What are you're dou if you've got to think about it you may there are obviously some questions in your mind. Are you going for other interviews for instance? [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] Okay. What's in salaried jobs? [Trevor:] Er well into financial services. You know what I mean but erm [Rod:] Oh are you? [Trevor:] Yes yes. Going back you know I'm looking [Rod:] Well okay well look I I now I need a commitment. So what what do you think what do you think about this about this thing? Is it for you or not? [Trevor:] I don't thing it's for me. I don't think it's for me. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] I don't think it is for me. [Rod:] Right. Okay well er er that's the decision we make today so what what why do you think it's not for you. As a matter of interest. You made that decision that's fine with me okay. [Trevor:] Er erm er you're on commission only is that right? [Rod:] Oh absolutely. [Trevor:] Yes so you're you're are you self employed [Rod:] Yes. [Trevor:] under that? [Rod:] Yeah but surely sorry I I have to why do you question that now? That has to have been explained to you on the phone. It must have been. [Trevor:] Yes. Er it was explained to me on the phone. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] Er so you put your own stamp on [Rod:] Yeah yeah you're self employed [Trevor:] Yes yes. [Rod:] Weren't you self employed before in financial services? [Trevor:] No [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] No I've been on salary. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] I've been on salary you know. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] Erm I have been on commission basis. [Rod:] Yes sure. [Trevor:] Right. Er I have been on commission basis. Erm and erm I like the idea of erm you know basics you know basics. [Rod:] Why? It's only commission in another form. [Trevor:] Oh yes that's correct. [Rod:] Well makes you lazy. [Trevor:] Oh it doesn't. Well [LAUGHTER] it doesn't make me get lazy []. [Rod:] Well let me tell you er er this this' ll this' ll make you hungry and you'll earn a darn sight more money without a basic. Anyway I think you've made up your mind there er [Trevor:] Yes that's right. [Rod:] But but you say you prefer a basic. [Trevor:] Well I I prefer to be employed right rather than [Rod:] Okay well [Trevor:] even if I've got to start from commission only [Rod:] Trevor with respect you've just wasted a hell of a lot of time for you and me haven't you? Cos [Trevor:] Well not really. Not really [Rod:] Cos it's cost it's been [Trevor:] I phoned up and I got phone up to ask for the information right? I was [Rod:] But you [Trevor:] I was keen on the brochure. I had a look through and I thought well I want to go and [Rod:] But it's self employed and you didn't want to be self employed by what you've just told me. [Trevor:] Er [Rod:] Mm? [Trevor:] Not really not at this particular stage you know what I mean? [Rod:] Well if you're able to get a salaried position at fifty three in financial services I would suggest you know good luck to you fine.... Okay Trevor well [Trevor:] I mean I've already been offered well three or four jobs already like. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Well okay. [] [Trevor:] I've already been offered three or four jobs with salary like you know. [Rod:] Well why didn't you take them? [Trevor:] Right. Erm because [Rod:] Because this is self employed. [Trevor:] Because it isn't with you see. Right erm today with [Rod:] I don't quite understand your rationale here. [Trevor:] Well you don't all. You see with the financial services act er financial services they can offer you a job right [Rod:] Mhm. [Trevor:] but you you can't they can't they can offer you that job right but it's qua you have to qualify yourself by going for training. [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] Okay. Same way with you. Okay. If you go for the training right and you're no good at the training [Rod:] Mhm. [Trevor:] you know you turn out to be you know [Rod:] Right. [Trevor:] Er [LAUGHTER] no good [] er the same way with the financial services act. They cannot start anybody immediately [Rod:] Oh fine. [Trevor:] okay. Exactly the same as what you can't do. [Rod:] Yes yeah. [Trevor:] you can't start them off straight away right? [Rod:] Well we once your training's done you'll get an assignment on the medical [Trevor:] That's right yeah [Rod:] practice side [Trevor:] But you can't go out tomorrow, I couldn't out tomorrow and start doing it. [Rod:] Oh no because you wouldn't [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] That's right. [] [Rod:] you wouldn't be able to do it. [Trevor:] That's right. [Rod:] It's as simple as that. [Trevor:] Yeah. Well it's that same with [Rod:] You would not be good enough. [Trevor:] It's the same with every com you know it's the same with the erm interviews I've been to before right you know what I mean? [Rod:] Mm. [Trevor:] They have a training course now of [Rod:] Oh yes sure. [Trevor:] of a fortnight. See [Rod:] Oh well yes. Well [Trevor:] see they've got it to for a fortnight which you don't get paid. You know what I mean? [Rod:] No no. [Trevor:] You don't get paid. [Rod:] Well I'll tell you what I I you know seriously er with what Norman would have told you on the phone self employed commission only erm if you er I I'm surprised you came to see us. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] I really am [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] because er erm it it you know it's erm if if you made up your mind you you if you've had offers of salary I don't know why you're not taking them. Erm you'll not earn as much money with us. Er er with er with them as you will with us but er [Trevor:] I don't think er I don't think I'll earn more money [Rod:] I don't think you will. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Well. [] [Rod:] No there's more money in advertising. [Trevor:] Do you think so? [Rod:] Yes. I mean er some of our chaps are earning thousand pound plus a week no trouble at all. [Trevor:] Thousand pound a week. [Rod:] Oh sure. That is that is that's becoming n almost the norm now whereas mister average used to be [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] eight fifty. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Rod:] S eight hundred to eight fifty. Oh there was an example of of my [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Okay Trevor well that's er that's the end of the story. [Trevor:] Right. [Rod:] Erm [Trevor:] Okay. [Rod:] Okay. D'ya want your application form back? [Trevor:] Er no no it's all right. [Rod:] Okay. [Trevor:] That's all right. [Rod:] Right. Well good luck on on all these offers [Trevor:] Yes. [Rod:] you've been getting. [Trevor:] Yes that's all right. [Rod:] Especially at your age. [Trevor:] Yes. That's right. I was amazed myself. I mean I was only [Rod:] Oh I should I should [Trevor:] finished [Rod:] Yeah I should be very grateful. [Trevor:] Well I was only finished er last erm er when was it week on Friday. I was only finished a week on Friday you see. Well er I didn't realize it was. I've only just been looking for since then. [Rod:] Well good luck to you because er you know I can tell you right now we are one of the few companies that take on people in their fifties. [Trevor:] Yeah that's right. [Rod:] And er we launched er some we're not [Trevor:] Yeah yeah. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Say all the right things and. Thanks Richard erm [Richard:] a copy of the C V plus the form filled in where [Rod:] Okay [Richard:] appropriate. Obviously [Rod:] . That's [Richard:] Yeah. [Rod:] great. Yeah saves a bit of writing and er and you'll always get a bit more detail on it can't you? [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] Er while I'm having a look through this er Richard er over there we have erm a selection of the product selection of the product which erm we discussed briefly on the phone. [Richard:] All right. [Rod:] So erm er if you wanna look through that I'm no doubt. There's a signature coming up is there? erm certainly the average cost of an ad if you took the most expensive and the least expensive across all of those products would come out somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. [Richard:] Per ad? [Rod:] Per ad. [Richard:] But what size ad? I suppose that depends on what it goes in. [Rod:] Well once again if you look at the er er if you look at the full page which costs nine hundred pound on a on a golf club score card and you look at the full page in the A five booklet [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] which will cost a thousand pound and there's only black and while. If you look at a full page when they happen, they don't happen all that often on a schools portfolio which costs two thousand two hundred pounds, you'll see there's there's already three different prices [Richard:] Yeah. [Rod:] er across three different products. Because they're all different sizes and they're all erm [Richard:] The artwork costs and set up costs and so on. [Rod:] Right. So what we say is that if you took all of our products all our ads they would be somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. Now if you took a medical practice booklet they range from three hundred and ninety up to twelve hundred. So the least, if fact I I'm fairly safe in saying, that the least commission you can earn on an ad, providing it's in our you know you're taking it from our price system not discounted it, [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] would be somewhere in the region of a hundred and fifteen pounds. So you will go in you will never come out of a an advertiser with less commission than that. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] Unless you have discounted it and you give two or three pounds away when you do that. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] But in the main we are looking for er somewhere in the region of er hundred and eighty pounds per per per deal and we're looking for one of those a day average. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Our top people earn top money because A they're not satisfied with one deal a day. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er we say that a an assignment should take two to three weeks for instance. [Richard:] An assignment being one complete [Rod:] One complete product yes. We're er I was asked a question earlier on today erm how many assignments will I be looking after in any one time and I just said one. And he only, you start one finished it and then go onto another one. [Richard:] There's no overlap you have to complete one? [Rod:] Well if you yeah. There are one or two instances where you can go back. If there's erm For instance I've had a situation where on a medical practice booklet because we er hand back a hundred pound for every full page that we we gain in the medical practice booklet, er it's an encouragement for if we're just a quarter of a half page short, er for the practice to say you know we'll get for another hundred quid we'd all we need to do is make a couple of phone calls and threaten erm [LAUGHTER] one or two of our patients []. And that happened with me. I set up a solicitor two months after I'd finished the the assignment. Because they phone me up and said, Look we needed another half a page in this for us to get another hundred pound. I said yes. And they said, Well I've got a solicitor who's interested now. New pa new relation [Richard:] Oh I see the doctor right I'm with you now [Rod:] The doctor did a bit erm arm twisting. [Richard:] The doctor the doctor's patient is a solicitor n whose obviously he can now advertise anyway. [Rod:] That's right they can now. That's made a lot of difference. [Richard:] I can imagine yeah. [Rod:] And so I went back two months after. In fact I'd come off the road. I was already doing this job and so I went back because there they were going there there's a solicitor going to earn me erm er somewhere in the region of a hundred and seventy pound commission. So I [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] I went back. It wasn't very much to go back. So you can do that but in the main we try not to have any loose ends on er an assignment. But that's really in the hands of the individuals that er are selling the advertising. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Erm er and it's the way that we do it that's made it made it very comfortable to go into something, like most of the people that come to see us and work with us, they've never sold never been involved in advertising let alone sold it because erm [Richard:] I've been on the other end I've had people come sell it for to me. [Rod:] Sure. And so have I. I mean if I look back over my career with American corporates where I've bought advertising it actually runs into millions of pounds. Where I've been involved with the marketing groups to to bring advertising. You see [Richard:] Well I've done I I've sold advertising I suppose but by blackmail. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] That's it. [] What in your buying and selling guide? [Richard:] When I yeah when I was commercial manager for er one of the things that I was given the job to do was to sort out the company's buying. Because when I joined them they had eight branches [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] and when we parted company they had forty. But they had gone up to forty eight through acquisitions. Er my biggest downfall was that the guy that employed me who was the eldest brother of the two that owned the company got killed in a bloody erm riding accident [Rod:] Oh right yeah. [Richard:] and his younger brother had always hated me because Tom had always ranted down his throat, Why can't you sell and organize things like Richard does? [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear me. [] [Richard:] [LAUGHTER] It's all very well when he's alive. [] [Rod:] It doesn't it's not good for building up relationships. [Richard:] No. So erm but of course we had er a buying and selling guide if you like. [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] Now the selling guide er was an innovation to Tom [phone rings] bring some, all right carry on [Rod:] Hello... All right I wonder if you could ask him if he'd like a coffee or tea and erm er er just wait for me. Thanks... Oh Mike okay yeah.... Oh wonderful that's good news thanks very much good bye. [Richard:] And one of the things we set out to do was to bring some stability to the industry because everyone was trying to carve prices up. [Rod:] All right. [Richard:] And to be honest the cheapest price doesn't necessarily win [Rod:] No. [Richard:] er business anyway. So because we were the largest we took we in conjunction with people like Redland Roof Tiles and er [Rod:] Sure. [Richard:] the majors [Rod:] Another my clients [LAUGHTER] as well. [Richard:] We said look we'll bring out a price guide [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] but we ain't gonna pay for it. [Rod:] Oh no no. [Richard:] So you guys [Rod:] Get it sponsored by the [Richard:] Yeah. You guys are gonna sponsor this but it will bring the the trade buying price, not the retail because that's there isn't there's no such thing in in as a retail price for that sort of industry. Erm up then you can turn round when the smaller people come and say are carving up the price, you can turn round and say, Oh no they're not that's the price and that's the price. [Rod:] Yeah right okay. [Richard:] And that you know so er but it's only well blackmail. [Rod:] Yes er I think we've all er sold something er in advertising er er remotely related to selling er at some time or other in our careers. So let's er let's er er get er the proceedings on a on a not formal footing but laid out what we're trying to do today. Erm I suppose you could say almost fifty percent of the erm er discussions took place on the phone. Because if if we er if we don't hear a bit in the background and we don't hear the style in the individual er on the phone then we won't invite them to to come and have discussions with us. The reason for that is that we do all our selling on the phone. In in [Richard:] Of course. [Rod:] that respect. Er I I emphasize that very quickly because a lot of people have been involved in all sorts of sales environments and market places erm still have their traditional habits. And that is you don't mention the price or anything else until the last possible minute. Here we tell them absolutely everything on on the phone. Because if you leave anything to chance they'll blow you out when you get face to face. And you can chase your tail an awful lot [Richard:] Oh people are very wary of advertising [Rod:] Sure. [Richard:] selling so they wanna know exactly what they're letting themselves in for. [Rod:] So well no yeah, is it worth seeing this guy? Is the product you know even a description of the product that we're that they're going into er will be suffice on the telephone, they don't have to see these these these er items if they're described in in er in enough detail. Er so I get that out of the way er fairly early on. But what we're trying to do today here Richard is three er er three things. First of all you and I have to agree that is the sort of company that er er you could be involved with er and the other way around. Er seco and once that sort of I suppose the biggest hurdle's out of the way once that the other two become fairly simple. Erm that is er we agree on which company we might feel er you're going to be happiest in environmentally terms. Because whatever er product area you work in then you're doing the same thing as everybody else is. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Er the sl the pitch is slightly different because you're describing a different product and what the benefits are. But in essence we're selling advertising to all of those products. And we now have somewhere in the region of abo about a hundred and seventy five to a hundred eighty sales consultants throughout the U K. All doing the same thing with all with the same earning potential. And the after that er second decision's made is when. And as far as we're concerned we're happy to er for people to start immediately they think they are available. And that's the sort of decision we make er here. I don't hide behind a regret letter. Nobody walks out of there without me saying, Yes it's good for you and er here's a date erm you know for where where the training course starts. Okay? [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] So erm first of all for for we've had a cha chat for about ten minutes erm I have no problem in thinking you can do this job. Because we do send people erm er sorry send, we ask people to come on to a training course which we fully expense. [Richard:] Mhm. Which [Rod:] So [Richard:] is held where? [Rod:] At. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] Whichever depending on which company you go in sometimes there are a couple of days out in the field plus three days in head office. Some are just three days in head office and straight into assignments because they feel that er we have selected individuals for the right environment. Er and but others just feel they want to do it that way, other companies. But all have a fully expensed training course. Some are held every other week and some are held every week depending on the size of the company. So er I I have no problem with that. Erm having er decided that, let me ask you if you of what you've seen so far, and I haven't gone into er whichever product er do you thing this is do you think you could erm get into the habit of selling advertising and earning fairly substantial commission. Because in our field we're we're by far the biggest and the best in in terms of support and finance. [Richard:] I'd have to ask one well I'd like to ask one question first. I I feel [Rod:] Well ask [Richard:] I can do [Rod:] Okay. [Richard:] like. Where so far have you got to in, not recruiting at this time, but actually attempting to sell advertising in this particular area. And the reason I ask that obviously I don't want to go knocking on doors where somebody's already tried [Rod:] Oh [Richard:] er without having prior knowledge of the fact that somebody's [Rod:] We've [Richard:] failed. [Rod:] yeah we've bri er Howard when he started this company gradually expanded from Blackpool. He he or I should say. Er what he didn't do which is which is very sensible and what has failed for other companies is that he didn't decide this is a good idea I'll have somebody in Newcastle and somebody in Edinburgh and I'll have somebody, in other words he gradually built the whole of the business out until he reached London by which time he he'd a hell of exp er a lot of experience and knowledge about this thing's going. We've been selling in this area fairly consistently across estate agents [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] cos that's the only the only companies that we dealt with er up to four years ago. Er and there're certain categories that'll always go into estate agents won't go in medical practices won't go go on golf courses and won't go in schools. [Richard:] Yeah. [Rod:] So they all have their own niche of advertisers. Some legitimately if they wanted to could gain business from going in all of them. There are cert certain categories of business that we've built up over the year. A builder could go in all of those. [Richard:] Possibly a solicitor now they're allowed to advertise. [Rod:] And a solicitor. Erm er accountants can all legitimately go in all of those products. So there are certain categories we know. And this area is a gold mine for us. We got we've got I could have twenty five sales execs sitting er in the Newca Tyne and Wear area put it that way on on across those products and they wouldn't even bump into each other. Because they all have if you like every location business location will have their own favourites who they're going to recommend that we approach. The golf course is very selective. I mean there's only five ads can go on on er each of their products. Fourteen ads in estates er same for schools about average of fourteen in medical practices. So we're only looking for fourteen businesses on each assignment. Somewhere in that region. Less on on er less unless unless we split full pages and go into halves and that brings in the same sort of revenue thereabouts but just happens to spread [Richard:] and [Rod:] so to answer your question I would there's no problem [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] of how many people [Richard:] and and and the second part to that then is [Rod:] Yes. [Richard:] in each of those categories how often does it get repeated? [Rod:] Er the product is resold every two years. [Richard:] Right. So you go into the guy you sell it to him and then you've lost you've got for two years you can do nothing with that person. [Rod:] Oh in fact you're not even you could never have to go back to that same place but depends on where what you're doing at the time that assignment comes up for reselling. If you're if you're available erm then coincidentally you would go into that, er but no. The relationships you build up with our clients and the advertisers, with the clients you're working in their own er their offices for three weeks so you get to know people. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] With the advertiser you meet him once never see him again. Because literally you're only going in to get his contract his money and his copy and off you go. Thanks very much I've just earned my commission. It's the relationship between the client and the advertiser which goes on for the next two years. [Richard:] Yeah. When he says [Rod:] But for the sales [Richard:] bloody waste of time this was I didn't get any business out of it or er I did well out of this [Rod:] No er well well if he's got any sense I I always tell the advertiser I said now the adv I said you as the advertiser have got to keep worrying you may have to chivvy them up. What am I gonna get out of this. But in essence what we're doing is putting your business card in front of somebody for two years. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] But I'm I'm not here to teach you how to to do [LAUGHTER] the pitch []. The training course would certainly do that. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] Erm I mean if you're if you feel that I don't I don't think you'd have any problem doing this it's your it's your it's the [Richard:] No I just thought [Rod:] where you come from as well. [Richard:] Pardon? [Rod:] Where you come from can sell just about anything in the home counties. If you're a home counties man you can sell anywhere in the country. [Richard:] Oh I see yeah. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] If you get my [LAUGHTER] if you get my drift []. [Richard:] Funnily enough we always say erm that within the structure of when I was a regional manager and there were four of us erm Andrew who lives in Manchester [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] said Richard he said, I don't know how you do it in London he said, if they ever asked me to come down here he said I would die. [Rod:] Yeah. [Richard:] He said I would I would not be accepted. [Rod:] Home home counties people like me could go anywhere. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Richard erm if I now got to the stage of saying if if you had a choice, cos I have a luxury here of six companies er most recruiters just have one job for one company. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] I've got number of jobs for a number of companies. So it's unusual and I get told off for giving you a choice but what do you think? I I what I want to do is make, if people going into selling advertising for the first time and most people are let's face it [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] er it is important for me to get the environment right. Now I I've got I've got two or three in my own mind but erm that could you know [Richard:] At at first glance I would probably decide I'd I'd actually enjoy the golf club one but I'm sure it doesn't pay as much money. And I'm sure I wouldn't get as good a rewards out of that personally and satisfaction as I perhaps would I don't know. [Rod:] Well there there are three there are three organizations or companies there that I think you'd be er happier in especially going out for the first time and also er your style. [Richard:] Mhm go on. [Rod:] Well [Richard:] Let let me [Rod:] certainly golf clubs would be one of them [Richard:] Mhm [Rod:] er schools and medical. I wouldn't put you in er around and even though you've had experience strangely enough in the roofing industry and we get a lot of roofers in advertis er er how how do you which would you have chosen. [Richard:] Erm [Rod:] Strangely enough golf clubs actually you you can earn more money. [Richard:] Can you? [Rod:] Yeah. It's probably a harder sell because it's four colour and it's nine hundred pound for a little space like that but they're doing quite well. But the schools [Richard:] But is that because a new innovation you see. I mean I have [Rod:] Yeah we've we've had six months [Richard:] you're breaking new ground. [Rod:] We are breaking new ground here. [Richard:] Because they've always let's be fair they've always been around so somebody else has been doing them. [Rod:] Eagle Golf Promotions is the is the largest er a sales consultant has just er finished er my club off. You know finished their done their card and he did that in about er four da er five days it was. The card. [Richard:] What from Eagle or? [Rod:] No no no Eagle you see Eagle Prom er Eagle Promotions charge clubs for their cards as well as keeping the advertising money. [Richard:] Oh I see. [Rod:] We keep the advertising money and the cards are free of charge. Well [Richard:] So [Rod:] in fact all of that product there is free of charge. But I what I need is any anybody [Richard:] So on there you've got er oh I wouldn't know what that adverts to do with [Rod:] What's that one? Oh the cards. But that was if I remember rightly that was a mock-up. [Richard:] Oh [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] If you take the real thing. [] [Richard:] I was going to say I [Rod:] Yes that's that's [Richard:] where to buy a ball. [Rod:] Those those are nine hundred pound page per year for two years. [Richard:] Nine hundred pounds per year? [Rod:] Yep. [Richard:] And if you sign them up do we get the commission for the [Rod:] For the first year only. [Richard:] For the for the first year. We don't get any paid anything in the second year? [Rod:] No. Because all our production costs all our commissions come out of the first year. Second year is actually where we make money. [Richard:] So you do an three hundred pounds. That's nine hundred [Rod:] Yeah. [Richard:] You'd get thirty percent. [Rod:] Nine hundred and you would get thirty percent. So you can work out that for for erm for that card which has got three full pages. Then he was doing that's the planner he was doing the card at the same time erm Anyway that's the there's the that's the the, but I need to make a decision [Richard:] I'd I'd quite I'd quite enjoy the golf club one. [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] Er I just wondered what satura saturation you've had golf clubs [Rod:] Oh we've only just started them. [Richard:] up here. [Rod:] Yeah. [Richard:] So you'd be against Eagle as the main competitor if if they've got them already [Rod:] Oh yes we're we're knocking we're we're knocking Eagle. [Richard:] Because I would've thought most golf [Rod:] We we would concern [Richard:] clubs have already got them. [Rod:] Yes they have but they haven't got them for free. They've saved my club four and a half thousand pound a year. [Richard:] In the cost of their cards. [Rod:] Yes. And they they can soon put that somewhere else to er good use. [Richard:] And what area would I be restricted to? [Rod:] Okay what I what I need before [Richard:] All right okay [Rod:] I go into any more detail are we fixed on the golf club area? You only go in one you see. But the other one I would've er suggested would've been the schools. [Richard:] I must admit I've never seen anything like that on schools. [Rod:] No but that's [Richard:] But before [Rod:] also new. [Richard:] be before we go into that though [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] you would give the leads is that right as I read this? [Rod:] Yes we we s [Richard:] You say you got to go to that golf club or you've got to go to that school. [Rod:] That's right. Yeah you have no [Richard:] Because we've set up a deal with that school [Rod:] Yeah. [Richard:] for a brochure. [Rod:] Our marketing our marketing er group has gone around to all the erm er the clients within that market place erm, well not all of them at least they're gradually going round signing the contract to take the product. That's that's done already. We you just get a phone call from us that says, Here's here's your next assignment. We guarantee continuity of assignment. [Richard:] Within within which area would that be? How [Rod:] Well [Richard:] large an area? [Rod:] well erm we we pay thirty percent commission up to a hundred miles away from home. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] We pay thirty five percent if it's more than a hundred miles away from home. But the whole point of recruiting in a geographical area like this is we don't want we don't want to send people erm er miles away from their home if we can avoid it. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Erm I [Richard:] I just I just try to work out whether there must be a bigger concentration of schools in this area than than golf clubs. But whether you'd manage to sign all schools [LAUGHTER] I'm not so sure []. [Rod:] Oh we we've just sent out a six thousand mailer. Six thou a mailer to six thousand schools in addition to the ones we've already got signed up. That would not be a problem. Let me tell you you do not have to worry about continuity of assignment. And all we say is that we pay extra commission if we send you away but it is against er [LAUGHTER] against [] our principle and even er economics to send people that far away. [Richard:] Right okay. [Rod:] I I have to say the top earners of course ask for those further away. That's where they make their money. [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] Or make their extra money. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Two things that make a people a top earner here of course is one of them one of them in addition to graft, is that they won't sit back and sign up one deal and be very satisfied in a day. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] They will want to go on and do two or three. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] They'll also have no compunction whatsoever in taking [Richard:] Well let's fair on the golf [Rod:] the thirty five percent deals. [Richard:] On the golf club one if you've really got your finger out and you're known [Rod:] Oh [Richard:] well enough you could you could do one in day. [Rod:] I'm a I I I'm an er avid golfer, you I didn't say a golfer because that meant I could play, erm but I wouldn't put me on the golf clubs. [Richard:] You wouldn't? [Rod:] No. I could s I I even though it might make me a lot of money because I know that if I got if I made a dozen phone calls and didn't get any deals I'd be out there wanting play the er I wouldn't trust myself. [Richard:] I wouldn't take no no I wouldn't take the golf clubs with me. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Right okay. But I need to sorry I need to make. Are we are we going for schools or colleges? Now if if the management at home heard me doing this of course er giving you a choice but I believe in it. [Richard:] And you eat the tape afterwards. Erm... you've put me on the spot I don't I don't I've really I've really got no preference on them. [Rod:] Right well I let's I I I would go for schools if I were you. [Richard:] Mm okay fair enough. [Rod:] I mean cos it makes a difference the pack I bring out. [Richard:] Yes sure. [Rod:] That's that's why I'm putting you under pressure.... Right this is for you to take away. I'm going to ver the well the information I impart now is in brief Richard because they will certainly cover it in a lot more detail when you get to the er training. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] Let's get some samples er in front of you all right? I have to say once again that this, once again sorry I told somebody else this, this is the most attractive product we do I believe. The schools are seem to be able to make them look attractive because of the photography and things like that. And they are used to get bums on seats. Since the parents choice charter came out it is it is essential for all school, state opt-out grant maintained independent, to promote themselves. And that's why this has been so successful. Every assignment has a certain amount of documentation attached to it. Certainly when you arrive at the school they are committed by their contract to provide you with a desk office and and telephone facilities for two to three week or the duration of the assignment. But we we agree that after three weeks we should be should have completed it. Erm the advantage that schools has er have sorry, over the other products, is that if you went to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out. If you went to an estate agent you may if they're willing to er have one or two estate agent staff to help you out and if you went to a golf club you would be likely to have the pro or the secretary help you out. In a school you may have fifty to sixty teachers to help you out. And what I mean by help out is that one of the documents that we leave er when we sign them up to take the product is a list that so that looks something like this. And we ask them to bring together er list of the businesses which they are happy for us to approach on their behalf [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] to support this folder. So all of those people there or most of them are likely to have been on a list that the school have recommended. They will form all sorts of categories too and the worst thing you can do in sa in er negotiating advertising er Richard is to prejudge anybody [Richard:] Oh I can [Rod:] who might come in. [Richard:] Be completely wrong. [Rod:] You'd be completely. I've done it myself I've said no that guy what would that guy want to go in there for. Except that, it was a butcher right? People moving in, this was in the medical practice, people moving in new er new er new first things you do is register with a doctor. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] And the the butcher was gaining a lot of business out of it. Because they said, Ah fine I know where to go for my meat. And they are associated with the with the doctor. So I prejudged. [Richard:] we did that with the with the chemist. We phoned the chemist to find where the nearest and best doctor was when we moved to [LAUGHTER] Preston []. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] There you go you see. [] And that chemist er would've recommended probably [Richard:] The one that gets his scripts. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Absolutely right. Okay so this list will be waiting for you when you arrive at the the assignment. The important thing about that Richard is you still have to sit down and talk to them about these businesses. Get as much information as to why they have been put on that list. Because you'll use that when you contact. [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] So don't ex just don't go straight into that list. [Richard:] No no. [Rod:] Okay. Other documentation you receive and certainly is this one and you can't do your job without that and that's a blank of of the layout. Okay? So that as you sell the the slots, first of all you want you want to be able to point out where which the slot is when you've er er finally sign the contract. You also need to cross off as you sell them. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Once again they will tell you precisely what you've gotta do on the er training course. But let me show you er just while we've got that open how prices relate to those slots. And also have got an example here of what the earnings are. Every assignment on schools has a basic target of five thousand pounds all right? And that's what you have to have up in your mind. It also relates to once you know that you've reached that five thousand pound, that you've got your thirty percent commission on all sales. Over five thousand pound we pay you another fifteen percent. There's a small one before that but I would concentrate on fifteen percent. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] All commission er bonuses are paid at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute. If you just look at some the er numbers here. One po er positions one to four are nearly five hun well say five hundred pound each. They're premium slots. Okay? And then we have two other erm pricing erm areas for those slots there. Okay I'll let you study this when you when you've gone all right? [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now some of the schools have asked for this spa, this by the way is belongs to the school. Some schools have asked for that to be kept for the sch er you know for them as well. If they take up that space you must offer up the back page. That's which is traditionally theirs. [Richard:] Yep. [Rod:] In fact I think I not sure whether it's this one. That's an example. And also the school got that company for us. But that's a two thousand two hundred page. The commission on that is a third. You can work that out for yourself. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] You can't do the job without that. [Richard:] No. [Rod:] You get one of those for every assignment. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] Er a quick example down here. If you sold the whole of that product at non-discounted prices that's the revenue. And with schools it's very achievable. That is the earning in your two to three week period. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] So if you took a six week period then you're looking at somewhere around four and a half thousand pounds worth of income. Very achievable. I emphasized just now about the extra five percent. I've put that in bold down there so that people understand that. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] And of course that's substan makes that compounded up that makes it even more. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Okay? That's for [Richard:] Yep okay. [Rod:] you to take away. We will pay all commissions the following week. All right? Now we're one of the very few companies that will pay weekly commissions on a commission only basis. And the reason for that is that we ask you to do three things when you get in front of the advertiser having got his commitment. And I'll show you very quickly the documentation. All six companies have exactly the same contract. The only difference is and I hope you're not colour blind [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Are you? Are you really? [] [Richard:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear. [] What colour's that to you? [Richard:] Oh no that's green you're okay. [Rod:] I might have known. [Richard:] No it's just the different different shades of green. [Rod:] You're the first person I've said that to who said come back to me and said yes. [Richard:] Yeah I am actually. [Rod:] Those are both white I can assure you. But it what I'm saying is that they're all shades of colour anyway. [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] But erm they they're they're erm colour coded. [Richard:] But but I'll only have one anyway. [Rod:] That's right. [Richard:] So what whatever colour [Rod:] I wanted to make sure that you see if if er at some stage, and people ask me this, if if we needed to transfer people [Richard:] Oh I see. [Rod:] between companies we don't have to retrain them on on [Richard:] No. [Rod:] the admin which does help. Only on the pitch. [Richard:] Well my my problem only is is when the blues run into greens and the reds run into browns. [Rod:] Oh when you get bleeds that's what we call [Richard:] Erm I have been known to go out with one black sock on and blue sock on. [Rod:] Oh have you really oh well. [Richard:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I think I think we've all done that at some time or other. Certainly odd socks. Erm so but I wanted to point out two or three things on this contract that if you don't tell them on the phone about them before you get round there they they'll use it [Richard:] They'll frighten they use it [Rod:] The system tells us they'll use you'll frighten them off. And this is these are the sorts of things. You must tell them that you want to pick up a thirty five percent of the first year's payment. Whatever the payment is agreed. That is significant because that covers us for paying you commission. So we've already got that. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] So we've got that so you deserve to have it as soon as possible after banking it. Er we need to tell them that we'll take the balance of the first year's payment through er er on proof, when we when they've got their proof on on the desk we will take the next the balance of the first year's payment through a banker's order. Banker's order they'll use if if you haven't told them that we want a banker's order signed. If there are two signatories on the cheque you've gotta have two signatories on the er banker's order. So you have to make sure both sure tho both of those people are there when you call. If you left this anywhere left it behind and came away it would be lost in the system you'd never see it again. [Richard:] No. [Rod:] And we take the second year's, this is a sales pitch, we take the second year's payment a year later. So if they say, Oh I can't afford that. Then you say no it's a three stage payment in effect. [Richard:] Mm. [Rod:] Deposit first year second year a year later. [Richard:] So it would be a deposit balance of first year at proof stage and then erm [Rod:] But obviously there's somebody at head office you will be going through that in much more detail. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Er one of the other things that we want of course. Now that's two things, contract and the cheque. The third thing we want to complete the deal is copy. Now most people that come to see us have never been involved in designing or writing ads. We you don't er nobody has to worry about that. If they had wonderful. I mean I had so I it did help. We will take whatever copy they have in existence all ready where they've advertised somewhere else. If they want us to juggle it around we will do it. If they want us to design a brand new one we will do it at no extra cost. [Richard:] So the artwork is not a problem you have to get involved in. [Rod:] Is not a problem. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] If they say we've got co I haven't got copy. What's that gonna cost me? Nothing. I'll come round when we sign the deal after we've signed the deal I'll sit down with you for er er fifteen minutes however long it takes to decide on the copy. Then we will compose it as long as we've got some detail. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you send all those er bits and pieces in at the end of the week we just ask you and you most people don't get this wrong. Is the commission claim sheet. Representative oh well there you go, consultant number every assignment has a unique number. We list the advertisers put all this detail down which once again will be er will be gone through. Er if people have registered for V A T there's a special V A T er sheet. Because some of course are they they reach the thirty six thousand threshold without any problem at all. I mentioned bonuses being paid at proof stage. Every two months a list comes out to the sales consultants to say these assignments have been proofed. All you have to do is look for your own number er if you if you have hopefully you've kept a record of the assignments where you've earned bonus and you can claim it as soon as that number is published. A lot of people leave it in [Richard:] Can you can you just explain that bit again [Rod:] Okay. [Richard:] the bonus. [Rod:] Right. Bonus all er all your thirty percent is are are paid as you declare it during the assignment week after [Richard:] Ah sorry yeah so the fif the the five percent or the fifteen point seven and a half or whatever it is [Rod:] Fifteen percent fifteen percent you claim only at proof stage. Because that's the next stage at which we get money. [Richard:] Right okay. [Rod:] That's the way you do it. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Okay. That's a fairly average week for a lot of people. That was this is one of mine. Er my last but one. Er that's the sort of figure that we're we need to be looking at. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Just to show you. Er everything's colour coded. [Richard:] Oh I see this is just for different names of the different in-house companies [Rod:] that's golf that's schools, that's the one that you would use obviously. Same thing just the headings change a bit okay? [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] That's all we ask you to do. The advertising the paperwork and that's how easy it is to make money. It's available to you. Is that for you? [Richard:] Sounds very interesting I must admit. [Rod:] Mm. Yeah well I I I obviously I would say this but er I think it's the best opportunity that people have for a career direction because we we've redirected a lot of people's careers in this aspect. And also we've I suppose re-launched people's er especially in the older bracket [Richard:] Yes unfortunately [Rod:] who who erm are consistently being told they're too old for things. We have no problem with that at all. In fact the more mature the better as far as I'm concerned. I would trust er you much more than er erm a twenty five or thirty year old out there to get on and do the job. [Richard:] Yeah. I think er with experience becomes the the self-motivating part is something that er [Rod:] Yes. [Richard:] becomes inherent I think. Er there don't seem to be quite a lot of that any more. [Rod:] No. [Richard:] They've had it a bit too easy I think. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Absolutely. Well the only thing that as far as I'm concerned erm er Richard is is when would you like to come on the training course? [Richard:] Right. Erm I have as I say one other if you like self-employed business opportunity that I have been pursuing erm which erm I shall know after Tuesday of next week. [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] Erm which also sounds very interesting. [Rod:] Yes. What market is it in can I ask? [Richard:] Yeah it's erm er consultancy in er business travel. [Rod:] Is that a franchise or or what? [Richard:] No no no no you basically the company is pulled out of the ordinary high street travel business and set up a new concept in business travel. [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] Therefore with no overheads. [Rod:] Is this a new venture? [Richard:] It was been going for two years. [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] Erm but they er have only done it on a localized basis. Erm you earn commission by taking clients who might spend say a hundred thousand pounds on business travel, whether it be flights trains [Rod:] Yes. [Richard:] hotels whatever. And you sign them up or when I say sign them up they're er an account is opened [Rod:] Mhm. [Richard:] for them. [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] And you can show them of between an eighteen and twenty four percent saving on their business travel. [phone rings] [Rod:] Oh I've got a suspicion I'm getting. Hello. Yep. Right. Thank you. [Richard:] And erm obviously I've got a lot of contacts in the industry. Erm [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] and it's something that I I I like the idea of [Rod:] Mm. [Richard:] but again like this one I need to get to know the a bit more of the ins and outs of it. I've had a preliminary meeting with them and they've asked me to go back because they're interested in me. [Rod:] Okay. [Richard:] Er and that's been fixed up to go to Wilmslow in Cheshire next Tuesday. [Rod:] Right. [Richard:] I would like the opportunity of saying yes I am very interested. Er but I would like to reserve making er a decision until after Tuesday. Now whether that's a problem to you I don't know. [Rod:] It would be a problem with certain people. I would say sorry in that case er you know I wouldn't you know. But with you I I'm happy to [Richard:] It's not I'm I'm not pursuing any other P A Y E [Rod:] cos I know I know which the safer bet is and that's all I'm going to say. [Richard:] Sure. [Rod:] I will make er er provisional with you. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] So that you can come. I will go through all the the bits and pieces here now and then it's all done. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you phone me up and say, Yes I want to come it's all done. [Richard:] Well that's what I was going to say if if we could make it that the training course came after next week and not next week then [Rod:] No I'll tell you when the next course is for erm schools... seventh the week commencing the seventh of February. In fact which is just right isn't it? [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] Yes? [Richard:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. So I'm gonna go through... right [Richard:] And is that three or five days? [Rod:] I've done I'll just go [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] through in a minute it's three days. Yeah. Date is the twenty sixth yes? [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] It is isn't it yes. Okay on Friday the seventh. This is on the assumption that everything is going ahead all right? Friday the six fourth that would be won't it? [Richard:] Yes. [Rod:] All right. Prior to this you would have given us a phone call okay? [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] But on Friday the fourth erm I'd like you to er if ev the best thing is to read through this [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] Tells you all about where we do our erm oh er beg your pardon four day training of course I should've [Richard:] Four days. [Rod:] Four beg your pardon. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] Yes that's the trouble with having six companies. They all have slightly different er variations. Okay it's er this goes all into the detail. Erm the Fernlea I'll tell you what I've got here the Fernlea Hotel is where the course is held and you stay and the Fernlea is somewhere around here. There's a pier here which we've put on the new map erm and this is south promenade. Okay? Fernlea's somewhere around there if that helps you. We pick up, there's the details there. If you read that we need you to phone into that lady and it's Vivienne. [Richard:] No. [Rod:] Okay. I can you can't. [Richard:] [LAUGHTER] I can't. [] [Rod:] Not yet. You come over on the Sunday evening because we do start prompt at eight thirty on the Monday morning. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] That's the hotel. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] Okay. This is all for you to take away. If you please read that. [Richard:] I will. [Rod:] You phone me erm whatever your commitment is er to either us or the other people. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] And then if you follow that procedure I'd be grateful. [Richard:] Okay. [Rod:] We'll pay your travel costs. [Richard:] Right. [Rod:] To we'll pick up all your tab but er we'll pay this separately. [Richard:] Mhm. [Rod:] Just need you to sign [Richard:] Oh you want me to sign. [Rod:] Yes just sign to say you know about that. There's a copy there for you.... The other thing I've got to do is take a photograph. [Richard:] Oh god is my hair okay I've been out [LAUGHTER] in the wind you know []. [Rod:] No it's all right. All I all I ask you to do is smile. [noise of camera] We get some great glum looking photographs. [Richard:] Oh I I'm going to vet that [LAUGHTER]. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] discussions with Richard [Robert:] Robert. [Rod:] Robert sorry here you go. That'll come out on there you see and I'll get tell myself off. That's probably cos you know. We've gotta design redesign this cos everybody off. Oh sorry apologize to the last guy he didn't. Richard while I'm having oh [Robert:] It's that again. [Rod:] That was a Richard. [Robert:] Cut. [Rod:] Robert while I'm having a look. Yeah edit that. While I'm having a look at this just a quick glance through erm there's the er range of products that we print design publish, we don't sell them, for our clients. Erm if you'd like to have a quick glance through them. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Just get your feel for it. [Robert:] Yep.... [Rod:] I'll have I'll have hopefully described them as as much as I can over the erm over the phone but er and of course the brochure. Did what did you glean for the erm company brochure? [Robert:] Very professional. [Rod:] Mhm. [Robert:] Er forward going. Always looking to, how can I put this, upgrade things is it like you know. [Rod:] Pardon? [Robert:] All these looking to upgrade things you know. Er going forward. [Rod:] Okay. Oh sure. [Robert:] Er you know and [Rod:] Yeah yeah. Four years ago the erm er two thirds of those products weren't in existence. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Erm the law has helped us. Legislation helped us with the medical practice booklets. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] The law also helped us allowing a lot of professional companies to advertise which they couldn't. You know like accountants solicitors doctors chemists. None of those could advertise So in so it's broadened the number of er prospective advertisers that we can approach. [Robert:] Yeah. Totally new this industry so [Rod:] Erm I have to say that most of the people that come to us have never been involved in advertising. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] One of the things I am obviously gonna have to look at is the what you've done in the last two or three years because traditionally erm we wouldn't ask van drivers to come along and see us. [Robert:] Yeah well there's there's [Rod:] But there's there had to have been [Robert:] there's a good reason for that. [Rod:] Yeah right. [Robert:] Well I wouldn't [Rod:] Well I I would well I'd feel [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I'd feel more comfortable with people at least who have made an attempt to er to do something to earn a living. [Robert:] Well I've never signed on the dole so [Rod:] You're trying to avoid that. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] I haven't although a lot of people would say I was silly for not having done. Because I probably lost out on a lot of money. [Robert:] Well I well I tell a lie I tried it once. [Rod:] Mhm. [Robert:] Er in between sales [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] jobs. Er and I was told that I wasn't entitled to any money anyway because I was self-employed and I only paid the stamp. [Rod:] Yes well that's exactly what they said to me. [Robert:] And er you know I thought well [Rod:] Thoroughly annoyed me because I'd er every year when I'd paid my tax I'd pay my er national insurance and as far I'm concerned that should've entitled me. [Robert:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] Oh you can income support but it's not why should I be any different. I think it's something that they probably have to look at fairly seriously because er I think you do the Government a a lot of favours by going self-employed. [Robert:] Of course you do. You take self take the employment figures down for a start. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] Er yeah I mean that that's never been discussed by anybody or know or [Rod:] Mm. [Robert:] anything or it's never published that if you go self-employed [Rod:] No er I I I have [Robert:] er if you're out of work you're it takes small businesses of. [Rod:] Erm and one of the things I could've done was to em er become a salaried employee of my own company which was a limited company but I paid myself as a consultant. [Robert:] Yeah rather than a director. [Rod:] Yeah. And nobody told me that. And you're supposed to know all about the bits of paper that they issue. It does annoy me. Anyway that's got that's put the world to rights hasn't it? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay er Robert. There you are I got it right for [Robert:] Yeah I'll confuse now call me Paul [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] That's right yeah. [] Thank you. Erm well first of all er I'll I'll come back to that. First of all the company is very serious about taking up references. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] And they ask for four for a very good reason. At least they want to get a cross-section. If may be one doesn't respond at least we've got a good er [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And quite honestly if two give er a good references but I would I would have to address that once we decide [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] er what the outcome of this is going to be today. Er now let's go back over oh first of all let me explain what the idea is [phone rings] Hello. It is indeed. Hi Lynn. Oh that's fine okay. Yeah very kind of you call because some people don't. Lynn than thanks very much. Bye bye. Yes we get a lot of people who don't turn up at least a a phone call is er [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] Must make a note of that.... Yes I wanted to erm outline what the you know the purpose of these discussions today er so that we can get to the point where we can get into er get into more detail. Erm first of [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Did I speak to you originally? [Robert:] You did yeah. [Rod:] Okay. So I would have heard enough on the phone er because I haven't got my original notes here, I would have heard enough on the phone er Robert to have suggested that it was a good idea to get face to face. So there's a lot of the discussions have taken place and also I would have briefed you a bit er [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] on on what it was. Self employed commission only. I would have said at forty one you know you er you're still probably young enough to get a salaried job but we decided that it might be worth er you trying this avenue. The brochure also would have outlined a number of other aspects in in more detail than I could give you on the phone. And today really is er decision day that er first of all we'll get one of the hurdles out of the way whether you and I think that this is a good [Robert:] You think yeah. [Rod:] er way for you to be er earning some money. I know that a lot of money can be earned. I've experienced it myself and there are a plenty of top earners in our company who er arrive in a Porsche and er and er things like that. So some big money earners. Erm once that hurdle's out of the way if it is a hurdle er once once we've agreed on that er the next decision we'll make is on er which company you and I think that you're more be comfortable the environment in which you er we operate. Because we all do the same thing. A hundred and seventy five I think was the last count that we have around the U K all selling advertising. And the only difference between them er one group and another is may be the pitch is slightly different and the benefits. Otherwise, oh and the pricing is slightly different, [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] otherwise it's er er all the same. We're doing all the same. Certainly the opportunities to earn all the same er er er are the same across all companies. All right opportunities. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm so that you know it's it's a luxury that I have. I'm looking it's not one job for one person in one company today. It is I'm looking for five er may be for each of those companies so that's thirty people I could be looking for. I'm not but I you know could be. [Robert:] Yeah could be. [Rod:] But I want somebody in every one of those companies. So there's not a problem. So you're not in competition with anybody else. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] Erm and the other aspect of course is when. We do like people to give us a commitment on the spot on on all of those three counts. Er when we have a training course for all of these companies. There's no way we're going to send people out er to sell advertising er particularly as the majority of people have never done that before. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Certainly it's not in your background and it's not in most people's I have to say. Erm and er er we don't hide behind reject letters. If I don't think you're suitable and if I don't think this is for you I'll I'll say [Robert:] You'll tell me yeah. Straight up. [Rod:] I'll be up front with you. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm I also want and because I [Robert:] You'll say [Rod:] well I'll give the commitment. If you say if you don't think this is for you you've got to tell me that. Erm I don't go into big sales pitch you know to bring you into the company. What I will do is emphasize what we you know where you can go in terms of money- wise. And the other thing is is when. Now accordingly to your application form here er you you've no problem you can start [Robert:] yeah. [Rod:] All right. And I will give you that commitment as well. I'll say, Fine you want to start with us you want to start in this company here's your date for your course fully expensed. Travel hotel bills everything. Then out on to an assignment or with somebody in the field for a couple of days whichever company you go into. All right? So [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] that's if you like the the big picture. I'm now going to put on the lights... that's better I thought it was a bit dull in here. It was lovely and sunny when I first came in [Robert:] You were nice when that light was on. [Rod:] Aye? [Robert:] You were nice in the first light. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Yeah yeah now I can actually see what you look like. Okay well you really want to with us don't you? Don't go slanging the [LAUGHTER] recruiter right. You gotta you'll get a flashback off the top of my head []. Okay Robert Bob [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm your background here. That's have a look through this. First of all erm we'll you you you've obviously been round the construction industry a bit. If I can interpret these. Erm a roofing contractor for for twelve years there right? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] That was is was that the doing the selling er you've got roofing foreman here but that was the doing of was it? [Robert:] That was the doing of yep. [Rod:] Okay. Erm that was for twelve years. And then you make what a lot of people would be er consider er er a quantum leap. [Robert:] Into sales. [Rod:] Into sales from being what I would call an artisan and er I don't know what you would call yourself, but somebody who does things erm er on a er manual stroke artisan type work, over to sales. Home security systems I have to say that home improvements is the most likely jeep er leap that people will take first time [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] and or merchandising for one of the confectionery companies whatever. Explain why why what was behind your your leap into sales? [Robert:] At the time er well I've always through the roofing right you you come up against site fore you know site foreman general foreman clerk of works and I I've always got on well with I can always talk to people. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] Er when the building trade or that company moved out the north east. I was with them in Glasgow as well they were a national company and I came down here from Glasgow. [Rod:] This is what? [Robert:] H H. [Rod:] Oh sorry oh the first one yeah [Robert:] The first one yeah. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] I came down here because they were running out of work in Scotland initially. And er then Mrs Thatcher if you like and cut back council er subsidies and things happened and the work just ran out. Right it was mostly skilled [Rod:] And this was why the company pulled out of the, it says out of the north, are they still in existence or were they in [Robert:] I I don't know. [Rod:] No in eighty four they they weren't going under they were [Robert:] Oh no no no they just pulled away. Er I went back down south again. Er as I say they were a U K company. [Rod:] Were you sort of left stranded then or did [Robert:] Yes. [Rod:] you have something in er is this when you [Robert:] That's when I went in with myself. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] It was it was somebody I knew er in the club. [Rod:] So it was a contact? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] All right. [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Who told you you could sell probably. [LAUGHTER] That's how I got into it that's for sure. [Robert:] Yeah well he said er I don't see any reason why you couldn't you know. [Rod:] Yes. [Robert:] I've always been a sort of I won't say outgoing personality let's say right. Er [Rod:] Extrovert. [Robert:] Yeah well. [Rod:] It's another posh word for it. [Robert:] Yeah. [sniff] I always take people at face value and talk to people. [Rod:] Okay right. [Robert:] You know. Er never had any fear of that. [Rod:] Right. [Robert:] I look at a person and if you like me you like me [Rod:] Well that's let's face it [Robert:] if you don't well you don't. [Rod:] let's face it that's half the battle. [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] So I got into that. Erm [Rod:] And in Newcastle are are a local company obviously. [Robert:] Well again er they were U K based you know nationwide. [Rod:] Nation nationally. [Robert:] Yeah national company. Er but I unbeknownst to myself and near the end it was a sales manager that had a team of men under me and you know and things like that. And then all of a sudden in a span of about three month a lot of deals started er going by the wayside let's say right. You know guys were bringing in deals I was going out and selling [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] cos you can't let one alone [Rod:] No. [Robert:] as you probably know. And they were going in the next morning, oh they'd phoned up they'd cancelled. Er I've talked them back in but it's a house account so obviously there's no money in for me you see? [Rod:] Oh that's what you mean by erm [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] auth unauthorized deal. Okay. [Robert:] It was the nicest way I could have thought of put it. What happened was they were actually starting [Rod:] You probably wanted to use stronger language though did you R er Bob? [Robert:] Yeah and that sort of espionage. You know but that's. What was happening was they were starting they were ready to start up their own company to hire managers. [Rod:] Oh right. [Robert:] And so and we were bringing in deals and they were phoning the clients back and saying, Look yeah great alarm systems blah blah we have an alternative one cheaper. And they were fitting in their own until they got up and running. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] So you know. [Rod:] Well you lasted there for a couple of years. What what do what do you feel you gained most from er from this er this first two years in sales? [Robert:] In sales? Confidence in myself again. [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] You know just getting well cos as you know you don't know who you're gonna talk to. [Rod:] Sure. [Robert:] You knock a door and the door opens and that's your first contact with the person. [Rod:] So of course course these were by the title there, Home security, these were all domestic were they you didn't deal with businesses [Robert:] Didn't do commercial. [Rod:] Okay right. [Robert:] No. Er it was all home security systems. Er very high tech very expensive. That's another thing I found [Rod:] The er infra red [Robert:] the system wire free [Rod:] Yeah okay. [Robert:] was all transistorized. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Totally wire free? [Robert:] Well there was two wires. From the main from the main box one to mains one to the outside [Rod:] Yeah okay well that's [Robert:] signal box. [Rod:] system I've got yeah. [Robert:] Yes one I've got as well. A good system. Er and from then You know again it was a professional company it start with we were doing in Manchester for a week's training. [Rod:] This is? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] Er very professional course. Very professional. For somebody that had never been in sales before you remember a lot from the course [Rod:] Ah that that was that was yes that was really what I was going to er behind my question or included in my question, is that what did you learn from that [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] is that er er you know you you certainly need some training and backup. [Robert:] You need good training. And it was a very intensive course. [Rod:] All right. [Robert:] Anyway the way a course should be run. Er they take you up for twenty minutes intensive and then drop it [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] for ten and then take you know so you can absorb things. [Rod:] I I haven't been on one of our courses for a little while but I think that's very similar to er [Robert:] That's the way it should be. You can't cram [Rod:] You see you may have been in sales but in advertise this is erm [Robert:] Well it's [Rod:] entirely different [Robert:] totally different sell yep. Erm [Rod:] All right. But I er what did you learn about people in those two years especially the er the people in the company you worked for. [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] You watched the watched the shysters watched out for the shysters. [Robert:] Yeah oh a lot of back stabbing going on. Well direct sales you you know I always tried to sort of stay away from companies that you know had a reputation for that. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] Right. Always sold expensive [Rod:] Right. [Robert:] for the reason the product was worth it. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] You know I I I've never I [Rod:] Yeah we're I'll tell you right now we're not the cheapest, sorry the least expensive I should say. [Robert:] That's right I I have [Rod:] the least expensive. [Robert:] I have deviated from that one as well I don't like the word. But er if you get into that sort of squabble er price cutting and things like that [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] I believe your credibility goes out the window for a start. [Rod:] Mm. [Robert:] If you sell product like that you get more hassle with it. [Rod:] Well you've just you've just er allow you've just said something that allows me er to bring in er the way in which we approach advertising sales er Robert because er all of us who've been in tra traditional sales, and I'm I'm just er that was my background as well er in addition to recruitment, er we are not used to giving everything over the phone before we go to see the people. We are literally only trying to get the appointments so that we can [Robert:] That's right break breaking the [Rod:] ooze our personality show our lovely brochures and product range and say, not even mention the price until they say, I want that one. Er well okay it'll cost you this. And they may have chosen the most expensive. But because they've you've sold it to them. In advertising sales we actually do all that on the phone and then, but all our our personality comes across. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And because we could chase our tail. You can make a dozen appointments that were advertising and you may come out with one deal. Whereas when we make appointments to see people we are there [Robert:] It's to sign up. [Rod:] to sign up. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. Now there's nothing wrong with that. I've discovered that because I I've sold advertising. I've discovered that that is the only way, with one or two exceptions that might occur, the only way to stop yourself wasting an awful lot of time. [Robert:] It saves you money. [Rod:] You've got a limited number of slots to sell so you don't need to go thrashing around the country [Robert:] That's right hard sell. [Rod:] using your own petrol. That's it you must get a commitment on the phone. Say well I'm only I'm gonna come to you to sign you up. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] I'll tell you everything you want to know on the telephone now. Price size what it's going to do for you. Two years contract banker's order deposit cheque. Er I'm just listing out there [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] are plenty of others they'll tell you on the course. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Because erm it's gonna save you an awful lot of time and money. And we know from twenty years experience of doing this [Robert:] It works. [Rod:] that it works very well. Our top earners will tell you there's no secret to earning twelve hundred quid a week. Just except work. [Robert:] Mhm. [Rod:] And listening to the people who've been doing it for years. Okay well you you erm you cut your teeth on home security systems. Found out there are some people you have to keep your eye on. And cover your back. N E H I, that's close to being N E I which is a big company in N E I Parsons. [Robert:] It's. [Rod:] Right okay thank you you've just preempted my next question. [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Based in er in Newcastle. Home improvements what were they in? [Robert:] Double glazing. [Rod:] Double glazing. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. Because there are quite a range of home improvements [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] You've just hit on home improvement companies are legitimately go into all of our products if they want to. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] There's none none that can say, It's no good me going in the schools one. Because they have two thousand parents. There's no excuse for them not to go into the medical practice booklet because they've got fifteen thousand patients or thereabouts. There's no excuse in fact they are very supportive of course of the estate agents. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Because they're all prospective home buyers. So you've hit on an area that er make up a big advertising chunk that we have. Okay now you you er what from your experience with home security systems were you able to take to er N E H I? [Robert:] Just er selling steps I suppose. [Rod:] Okay. What what you'd learned from did they send you on a [Robert:] No. [Rod:] course? No. So it was hands on [Robert:] It was well there was an ongoing training every morning sort of thing. You know you went in and you went out with the reps and [Rod:] Massaging the shoulders and psych you up yeah I know. [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] Say yeah you can make you know the big bright lights and things like that. Which again if you accept [Rod:] What sort what sort of commissions can you get on double glazing? [Robert:] You can make a lot of money. A lot of money. [Rod:] It it must be on er ante social hours though is it? [Robert:] Oh yeah. [Rod:] A lot of it done during the evenings and weekends? [Robert:] It's all evening weekends you know. [Rod:] This is the only nine to five sales job I've ever been able to offer anybody. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Because you have to get out of the premises of the people when they lock up. [Robert:] Well that's right yeah. [Rod:] And that in fact is one of the one of the areas or one of the elements that attracts people to this particular job. [Robert:] You're back to home life. [Rod:] Oh yeah. [Robert:] My wife used to say, Can you not get a proper job. [Rod:] That's right. [Robert:] To me it was a proper job because that was [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] You know I'd been [Rod:] See money's all right they probably love the money you can bring in but if they don't see you to spend it or to [LAUGHTER] to share it []. [Robert:] But again there was some weeks when you know they'd say, Oh how did you work? Aargh the areas were more targeting [Rod:] Getting saturated. [Robert:] you know er you'd be out [Rod:] Competition? [Robert:] priced. [Rod:] Where was your main competition from, price? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] What the Everest of this world or Alpine or whatever? [Robert:] No the other end. Your budgets and [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Oh that's right. [] How where did where did N H I er N E H I come in to that? The sort of middle road or [Robert:] Er we always tried to put it over at er Everest product prices. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I can imagine I can imagine. I can just imagine that. [Robert:] Er oh you've got you know every company's the same. [Rod:] Sure. [Robert:] Er I was toying with the idea of getting out altogether out of the, I'll be honest with double glazing. [Rod:] Yeah sure. [Robert:] The cake's the same size [Rod:] Yes. [Robert:] But the slices are getting smaller and smaller [Rod:] Yeah yeah [Robert:] you know. [Rod:] There seem to be an awful lot of local companies shove [Robert:] There's too many given you see they advertise falsely right? Should not get away with six windows and then the small word from two hundred [Rod:] Oh yes from two hundred yeah. [Robert:] Right. So people oh I can get six windows for two hundred pound. So you go in a tell them that six windows are gonna cost them four and a half thousand and they go [Rod:] Well it it also allows me to once again break in here because er one of the things that you can't do in home improvement areas is talk to people about the final price on the phone. You have to go and measure up. [Robert:] You would never get across the door for a start. [Rod:] You wouldn't get across the door. [Robert:] No. [Rod:] Erm here we do. Once again it brings me in to the point where er double glazers have to go and measure up then do their, I know they've got lovely lap tops I've seen them now with their lap top comp their little samples there special catches here. I've bought double glazing you see. I haven't had to in my this current house because they're sealed units and I I bought the house new so. Sealed units must have destroyed at lot of the or taken a chunk out of the market. [Robert:] Well they're easy to destroy as well but we won't [LAUGHTER] we won't go into that []. [Rod:] We won't go into that because I've got it and I make a joke [LAUGHTER]. [Robert:] That's right you see I will not I will not tell you you're daft for buying them. [Rod:] No well in fact there are one or two hiccups we've had with them. Especially with the condensation a little nail I found a nail had been hammered through and spoilt the seal. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Okay so once again over four years erm you unfortunately the company went into liquidation. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Did they set up again under a different name? [Robert:] No. [Rod:] Oh just okay. Now the next part intrigues me. Who is E E C? [Robert:] Oh [Rod:] What product is that? [Robert:] Er well network marketing have you heard [Rod:] I network market I've got no problem with network marketing. It's going to be the future marketing [Robert:] It will be if [Rod:] It will be. [Robert:] you get the product right okay. Well there's a lot there's a lot of companies out there [Rod:] Toyota you can only buy a car in Toyota through network marketing [Robert:] That's correct yep. But I mean the Japanese I think have got like sixty five seventy percent of their national growth. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] Isn't it? Well America's forty odd. [Rod:] As long as we as long as we can persuade people to forget the pyramid er years. [Robert:] Well that's the first thing I used get. Oh it's pyramid selling no I don't want to know. It's a meagre earn, no no it's not that it's a very good way to make money. [Rod:] Well everybody can make their money that's the important. In pyramid there was only one guy gonna make the money. [Robert:] That's right yeah. [Rod:] Whoever started it off. [Robert:] E E C it's European Enviro European Environmental Controls. Lovely name for getting into the Common Market. E E C you know I I've work the E E C you know. Er [Rod:] What what what was this product meant to do? [Robert:] It was water and air filtration systems. [Rod:] I thought N S well N S A. [Robert:] N S A right okay. [Rod:] N S A are the big boys in that aren't they? [Robert:] Yeah. They're the market leaders if you like and all your chaps at the top there will always be the top but anybody getting into N S A now [Rod:] Well they've got the electrical products now er sorry the security products is is their life saver I guess. [Robert:] Well we the E E C started off with the water filtrations and air products and then they got tied up with an American outfit doing fuel savers, magnets for your car. By the way I've got them on my car the work. Right okay. [Rod:] Yeah okay. I I must admit I hadn't heard that one. [Robert:] Er great things. Er and then they went on to them for your central heating [Rod:] Mhm. [Robert:] gas L P G oil central heating er and we were going fine. Er and all of a sudden they brought out the catalogue right? With the jewellery and the cleaner products you know and [Rod:] So it's combining all the other network marketing companies in one catalogue were they? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Oh what under their own banner? [Robert:] Yeah. Er they just totally deviated from what we were doing. [Rod:] Right okay. [Robert:] Er and we were getting the impression then we were only, not wanting to decry them Bettaware salesmen or Bettaware people, you had to go round now and stick catalogues through people's doors and go back and [Rod:] Oh really. [Robert:] collect collect orders. [Rod:] That's that's away from network marketing that. [Robert:] And the network just went and it just collapsed. [Rod:] And I guess you must have lost erm some of those people would've gone to N S A especially with their new security product. [Robert:] Er I don't know where they went. [Rod:] You don't know okay. [Robert:] You know erm if [Rod:] You didn't keep in touch with them. [Robert:] No well I'm if people pull out they've got their own reasons. Per personal business whatever [Rod:] Oh sure. [Robert:] and next you know it's it's in the past. [Rod:] Yes yeah. [Robert:] You dwell in the past and you'll never go forward. [Rod:] No no. [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Oh no never in marketing as er I mean even the Institute of Directors and the Institute of er the C B I recognize now, in fact they put out papers on it, to say that network marketing is the way of the future. [Robert:] It will be. [Rod:] Erm providing you get the right products at the right price down and it's and it's er it's been it's done ethically. [Robert:] Yeah. See with the likes of the other company we mentioned right, they were been in the beginning er for order values stock they just wanted to sell you stock all right. I'll sell you fifteen hundred the first stock right. Probably turn round say they had a five hundred million pound turnover last year right. I would say [Rod:] Probably about forty million last year. [Robert:] Er sorry yeah [Rod:] In the U K in the U K [Robert:] Yeah. Point I was going to say was about five million pounds of that probably hit the the public the rest is lying in garages and [Rod:] Oh in the house [Robert:] spare rooms and things like that. [Rod:] Yeah I think yes yeah yeah. [Robert:] And to me that was the wrong way to go. I'd rather sell you one for yourself and one to sell. [Rod:] Yes. [Robert:] And if you sold it come back for another one. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] Er all the small people that's how you build your network. You don't go in and say [Rod:] But that that would not [Robert:] give me [Rod:] be of course the people further up the line. [Robert:] That's right. Give me five thousand pound I'll fill your garage full of whatever. [Rod:] Yeah. Although they do they do I mean I've been I've been to the presentations [Robert:] Oh yeah. [Rod:] they they they do give you an option just to start off very low. In fact they've dropped their minimum now. [Robert:] Yes it's down to er six hundred or something isn't it? Or you're not allowed [Rod:] Below below that cos of the of the security the security See the security systems the alarm erm is nineteen pound. Well they've never had a product that cheap before. I think you know to the retail [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] not to the public. [Robert:] There was a company come out with something similar like using er an E S P thing. [Rod:] Yeah but they've tak they've taken they've taken it a stage further and er prettied it up and given it another facility. Right okay so that's er that was the demise of E E C. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Erm now [Robert:] Now here we go. [Rod:] Now here we go. [Robert:] Right okay. My wife's a company secretary for the company in question all right? [Rod:] Right okay. [Robert:] And I've known well in between but in between times like Christmas time and [Rod:] Yes. [Robert:] the direct sales times it sort of died. Which it did do. I used to go in and help them out at Christmas because they would be three may be four or five thousand turkeys right. When I left school at first I was er in meat wholesale in Glasgow right. So I knew what I was doing. I could cut and different things like that and be it fate or not his er suddenly lost his driving licence. [Rod:] Okay. [Robert:] Okay. So he asked me if I'd go in for a couple of weeks until he got something sorted out you know. I said yeah fine I'll go in. Er and it turned out a year till he [LAUGHTER] licence back []. [Rod:] Okay so you. [Robert:] Well it was steady income I was in the house every night my wife was happy. [Rod:] Robert I've got no problem with that erm I've put down here you wouldn't go on the dole and you got this through your, I think it would be fair enough and er I I I admire that. [Robert:] Well it was money on the table. [Rod:] And it was money on the table. [Robert:] Okay my life's still [Rod:] Is that coming to a finish now. [Robert:] Oh it's fini finished at December there. He's his licence back in October [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] but he kept me on to get me through Christmas you know things like that. [Rod:] All right fine okay. [Robert:] Let's say I've known the guy for [Rod:] I mean he hasn't kept you on now though? [Robert:] fifteen years or something like that. Oh no no no. [Rod:] Right well this is a big step a giant step for mankind, particularly if you're Robert to go self-employed. Oh you've been self- employed yes [Robert:] Oh I've always been self-employed apart from that one. Well [Rod:] Oh really? So you were except for roofing foreman [Robert:] well the the roofing er we did go into the seven one four forms you know [Rod:] Okay fine. [Robert:] in the early stages. [Rod:] Yes. They used to called it the hump didn't they? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Is it still called that is it? [] Although they tight they tightened it up still goes on our bills. [Robert:] Oh yes of course it does. But that was the good old days. You could walk on to your site and say is that the job how much? What? How much? No. And you could walk fifty yards down the road and there'd be somebody else building and you could walk on a say is that the job how much? Long gone. [Rod:] Yeah okay that's the job long gone. Yeah everything's written quotes and goodness knows what. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] I've got no I I've got no problem with that Robert because there's enough there to say you know that you've got erm cut your teeth already on sales. Okay well that's interesting to get your background. Robert this is a different type of sale. Er it it is I can remove it from the rest of the the sales that er even from the direct sales that you've been [Robert:] Yeah pitch. [Rod:] er and only because of what I different pitch it is on the phone. A lot of people can't get used to that. A lot of people who come to us I have to say. I started out that way and not listening to the people you've been doing it for years and say this is the way you do it. And after a week of not earning I said, There something wrong here. It's you know and my pride was getting a little bit dented that I'd been selling market for years suddenly I wasn't doing this. And they said, Well okay I can tell you right now you've, how many appointments have you told me this week, this is the guy back at camp. Erm I said well yeah he said every day you been saying er I've been asking you what appointments have you got and I said I've got two this afternoon and two tomorrow morning. And each time I've ask you what have you got today, right. Now remember they're not they can't be counted as your boss [Robert:] Your boss no. [Rod:] they're just the person there [Robert:] That's right yeah. [Rod:] who they just need to know on a daily basis what deals you've got. So that they can see how you're progressing. And it's not big brother certainly not a big brother attitude it's just they're there to help you. And er he said, Well you haven't listened to me have you. He said you're making appointment still to go and talk about advertising. He said what reasons have they told you that they're bowing out? Well erm they didn't want to do banker's order, so why did you go around? You're wasting your time and your petrol because it's my petrol [Robert:] That's right. [Rod:] and my car. The second week was entirely different. I I did it their way [Robert:] Mm. [Rod:] and I'll show you one of the commission sheets. It started to pour in and it was compared with previous. You know it does pour in if you have nought the week before anything you get is pouring in. But it was a very good week after that. That's why I always persuade people they must listen. If they listen they'll love you if you listen I'll tell you because you'll do it. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And all of your performance all the performance of the sales consultants determines what other people are earning themselves. So it's to their interest to beef you up. Having got the fact that I believe you can slot into this job Robert. Because we do give a training course we don't send you know, are you happy to consider that that that there's a two-way opportunity? [Robert:] Oh there's gotta be yeah. [Rod:] Okay. That helps to actually get that out of the way. [Robert:] The referees you were looking for you [Rod:] Well I I yeah the only point is there that we do require four referees. Now if you're you're you're obviously that will not tell us very much about your selling. [Robert:] No [Rod:] The other people all have not aye? [Robert:] They're all not there now. [Rod:] They're not oh that sometimes presents a problem but quite honestly er if you've if you've still got some contacts in sales we're you know. Nobody puts references down here if they've got any sense that are gonna give bad references. [Robert:] Yeah well I mean [Rod:] As as a personnel manager once said to me, Reference are only worth the amount of work [Robert:] You know I [Rod:] you've done on them. [Robert:] I can put down a school teacher does that help? [Rod:] Yeah fine yeah put it under that. [Robert:] Yeah. It's my next door neighbour. [Rod:] School teacher yeah anybody? [Robert:] Next door neighbour. [Rod:] The references I've given, well I haven't had to give many over the years. But it's been two next door neighbours, one a bank manager and one a chief executive of a company. [Robert:] Mhm. This is fir this is the first [Rod:] My accountant no problem. [Robert:] The first, well my wife done all my books you see. In the company you know I've never dealt with any [Rod:] All I can say is I'm going to put down here, to be advised. Because we're very the reason [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] All right. But please advise because we we will write to you. The reason for that is that we're putting tot total strangers on to our clients premises for three weeks. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And we've already discovered in the last six months by discreet calls because of something we've seen a bit funny in er er in er references that have come back or people have been down right honest and said, Sorry er this guy was last time I spoke with him. He put a solicitor down, and last time I spoke with him I was defending him on a for fraud. [Robert:] [LAUGHTER]. [Rod:] We had he's already started an assignment. We had to pull him off. We couldn't afford to have that guy in. [Robert:] Yeah you know I I yeah I can see. [Rod:] See that? [Robert:] Yeah. Because they'd want your office where you phone I I'm going with it. [Rod:] So so please please take take it seriously on that. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Please please help me out on that one. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] All right. Robert that's one hurdle out of the way. I believe you could do this job. You cos you I think you you you've got pride and you've got determination and you've got some pzazz. If I'm if I I am in luxurious position of saying that I can fit you in to some of these companies. I've got six companies there. If you were to choose an environment that you think you might be happy to work within, cos remember you're selling ads whichever one, [Robert:] Mm. [Rod:] where do you think you'd put yourself? You've got schools golf clubs uni erm schools universities colleges er estate agents two products and medical areas two products. [Robert:] Well it would have to be I wou looking at it it would be between two wouldn't it really?... Estate agents cos they're all over the country. [Rod:] Aha. [Robert:] And golf clubs cos I play golf and they're all [LAUGHTER] over the country []. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] Now they're [Rod:] I I [Robert:] personal and er [Rod:] I'm going to tell that with your [Robert:] I don't know any [Rod:] with your background in sales and in what you've done er with your hands as well, I would put you in estate agents. [Robert:] Mm. [Rod:] I I think you'd be er you'd succeed a lot more in that. I know you play golf it might be a danger putting you on the golf courses. [LAUGHTER] You'd want to play the damn thing all the time. [Robert:] with me. [LAUGHTER] I'm just turned forty and I. [Rod:] Okay? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] I but we've got two products there. We've got two products there postal wallets and folders. Quite honestly I have no particular erm preference there for you except let's have a look at the two products shall we? [Robert:] Yep. This is what it's all about products. [Rod:] And they each do for the home buyer and the estate agent the same sort of thing. It presents there the home buyer with a list of businesses that er er that's er an estate agents newspaper that we print er publish every, er it is over here, every month. So we have two products, let me show you these. Okay. These are given away to house buyers when they or prospective house buyers when they walk through the door. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] All right? Er difference er is obvious. These are much more erm you know retend er retention. There's all the information. Doesn't matter what estate agent you may be going into you will keep the information in this if the other esta other estate agent hasn't got it. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] So you're more, first of all the estate agent's name will be in front of you more than the others, and also the advertisers will be. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] So an estate agent who hasn't got one of these when you go into this one erm you're likely to retain this. It also has we have the largest independent producers of street maps in the country. And I believe them to be the some of the nicest maps I've ever seen. But we don't sell them. [Robert:] No they're [Rod:] Given away. [Robert:] Given away. [Rod:] That's why er people who come to our company and then after a year or so think they can go away and do this on their own, can't do it. They try they fail they're they're [Robert:] Mhm. [Rod:] another twenty years it's littered with people who've failed in this. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And that's because of the map. A lot to do with the map. So there's that product and the earning potentials are the same on on both of these products. And then there is what what is a what is a spin-off from the other is a postal wallet. The the estate agents were finding that they were using these up very quickly by sending them away, also they were rather expensive to send away in the post and we were not prepared to put, er we weren't getting the income to survive on that. So we said what can we produce that they can send through the post. And we produced this. Four er six years ago I think it was. The difference the difference the obvious difference perceptively between that and that is er the size but also the number we will print. We will print three thousand of these may be per year [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] We'll print thirty five thousand of these. The difference the benefit to this er the advertising here is that it's going to be repeat. If you're on the mailing list you're gonna get a lot of these. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] If you walk through the door you're gonna get one of those. But the benefit of that is it's retained. The benefit of this is repeat. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] And then of course they'll always retain the one that appeals. I'll keep this cos I need to keep that guy's. [Robert:] Yeah. So the the crux of the job is right if I've picked all right. [Rod:] Yeah okay. [Robert:] You go to an estate agents [Rod:] Remember you don't have [Robert:] This is this is [Rod:] You're selling this not this. [Robert:] You're selling this. That that's that's what I was gonna get at. [Rod:] That's. [Robert:] Yeah. Right. [Rod:] We've taken we've taken er some of the workload off. [Robert:] Yep. And you phone round local builders local whatever [Rod:] Right. [Robert:] er and ask if they'd like to advertise. [Rod:] Well I'll give you an idea. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] That list when marketing group go round to sign up the estate agent for one or the other or both. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Obviously they're not sold together. This might be sold another six or seven months after that [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] or vice versa. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] They can have both but not together. Erm they are left er a list of er a blank like this and say right you contracted to take the products now we want from, it'll be this one say, now we want a list of advertisers who or prospec prospect businesses who you think you're happy for us to approach for a start. In other words you don't mind your name his name associated with you. [Robert:] Yeah that's right credibility [Rod:] Secondly. Credibility. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Erm and it'll also help us to get the the out of your way, we'll get out of your hair within five or six days if you give us all the businesses. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Now these represent, and this list is sent back to us and retained on the with the contract and all the details of this assignment for when it comes to the top of the pile as it were. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] When it comes to the top of the pile whoever is the most geographically suitable and available, the consultant is told there's there's your new assignment. Just coming up to finishing this one here here's your new one. That list is sent in the er assignment pack to the estate agent to wait for your arrival. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] I think I told you this by the way, this I want to describe to you now is the same for all of them. [Robert:] All of them yep. [Rod:] And in fact we even er I'm not sure whether this is still in operation, but we even give them an idea of the categories. Now I can [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] I can say to you right now with confidence that if I'd asked you to start writing er a list of the categories that people er that you think might advertise in these you'd probably get about twenty five. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] We've got about a hundred and fifty. [Robert:] Fifty. [Rod:] That's just a [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] that's just a slip. Because one of the worse things you can do in this and it's a it's a it's something everybody does I think, I understand anyway, is to prejudge who will or who will not advertise in [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] As far as I'm concerned anybody who wants to sign a contract with me gives me copy and a cheque is a legitimate. [Robert:] Mhm. [Rod:] And yet I've been as guilty as anybody else in saying, Oh they won't wanna come in this medical practice booklet what will they gain from it? Let them decide. [Robert:] That's right. [Rod:] We know what they will from advertising their business. That's waiting for you when the assignment comes up. The important thing about that Bob is not to accept it just at face value. Is to sit down with the estate agent and say, Right why have you got these business on. Tell me a little bit about each one of them. And then they say, Well the guy he's next door I don't know him but I just thought I'd put him on. That's not enough for you to pitch on. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] You say well look I'm gonna approach this guy what sort of business are you gonna put his way or can you put his way. [Robert:] Mhm. [Rod:] Is it in your power to put a newsagent er any business. He'll say, Well I can make sure all the newspapers all the erm come in here. And I'll say fine. I've gotta be able to tell him that. [Robert:] Yeah. And you'll have to know your local reputation as well. [Rod:] Absolutely. [Robert:] Well they would know that. [Rod:] But you would only approach that business on the basis that well the estate agent has asked me to give you er you know he he feels that you would benefit and erm from this exposure and er has asked me to approach you first. May be the third one you've approached that day. But they will tell you on the phone. [Robert:] It's [Rod:] Okay? It's that sort of pitch. [Robert:] Okay. [Rod:] Okay? Now [Robert:] So there's not really cold call well it's cold [Rod:] Oh [Robert:] calling in a way but you've got [Rod:] It's not as you want [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Rob er Robert but but we really have warmed it up as much as we can. The the lists that we get range from mediocre to pretty good to excellent. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] But even the mediocre ones you know you have to say, Come on chaps there must be more businesses in this. And of course we've been doing these for twenty years, folders. We've been doing these for about six. The majority of our assignment I would think now are getting to the resale position. In other words we're going back after three or four years. So we'll have repeats. So when you go in and say I'm coming to resell er tell me first of all here's the old here's the current erm folder or postal wallet, who are these people are they still in existence. What sort of business have you, before I approach them, have they do you think they've gained anything from you. What relationship have you got with these. Because if you phone these guys up and say, What a waste of time. Not get anything from them. You may have to say, Well I've just been talking to the estate agent about this and er you know on a number occasions he's sent people along to you er may be you didn't realize that was happening. [Robert:] Mm. [Rod:] Because they don't ask everybody who comes through. Oh when did you hear about this? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] All they want is [Robert:] Small businesses now [LAUGHTER] don't anyway do they []? [Rod:] So we emphasize that when we're signing them up make sure you ask when these people come through where they have seen or where how did they find out about us. I'd be interested I would. [Robert:] Mhm. Yeah. [Rod:] So there's all that on the table. So that's that product. I won't go into the er the earnings yet because they're exactly the same as this. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] That's a fol you can take that away that explains er what what and this is the this is the folder all right? Now you'll see that there are almost the same number of slots in in each. Okay now we've had this for twenty years so a lot of these have been resold of course. But we've got a lot of new ones. Asda for instance if you know the supermarket chain er now have er property services on their prem premises. We've just got the contract to do them. [Robert:] Yeah? [Rod:] So how do you feel about these? Same pitch slightly different pitch of course er sorry slight difference is that you're saying that these of course will be handed out to a targeted [Robert:] Out to [Rod:] audience. These of course are repetitive. [Robert:] Yeah. Are these like erm mail shotted through somebody whose registered with the estate agent? [Rod:] Yes for instance if I [Robert:] Or is it only to buyers? [Rod:] No. If if if if you were wanting to buy erm buy a house if you were moving house, and I didn't realize until the other day that ninety percent of people who buy and sell houses are moving within their own area. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] That's surprised me. [] Erm er you know if fact they could be just moving two streets away or five miles away but all within the same town. Erm those are the people that are unlikely to get these. Because they [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] But I received my first [LAUGHTER] one of these from [] er from Lloyds er Black Knights er services because I was in I was about fifteen miles away. I could still have easily called in if I'd wanted to but I saw something advertised in a village saw the board took the number down and phoned them up. So they sent me it. Erm because I didn't find it convenient to go and call. That's the sort of so. But you could be three or four hundred miles away moving from Penzance to Aberdeen. That's when you're likely to get that. You'll still visit the area and get one of those. But in the first instance you'll get these. Because that's the quickest way they can get stuff to you. [Robert:] Yeah. And I suppose may be it's may be if somebody got that, that's why I say if you have to buy the property first. But if you got it you might find it would be cheaper to do your house up using these clients rather than sell. [Rod:] You never know do you. So there there's the two products. Now what do you think? What do you, no difference. Same same training course in effect. Different weeks I mean we concentrate on wallets because of the pitch. Any preference. [Robert:] Looks more professional right? [Rod:] Mhm. [Robert:] From a a layman's point of view. But I think you'd get more business out of the smaller one. [Rod:] So which is the easier pitch? Remember you're going into this for the first time. That one? [Robert:] I I would say so. [Rod:] Shall we talk about these? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. Different companies you see [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] in the same division. I'll let you take I'll you take this as well all right? So that you can. But what we're talking about now is that we've made up our mind A that you er I believe and you believe you can do this job. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] So we've got belief in each other. Erm B we have now decided the company and because you've decided this company will also determine how soon you can start. Because this course is every two weeks that one's every week. Right? [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] I'll take that out of your way. You get to take these products away. Let me open up that one. See the difference designs. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] That's actually the the front. [Robert:] Who designs the [Rod:] Right. [Robert:] the adverts. [Rod:] You've asked the question. It just preempts something I tell tell people anyway. But let's have a look at all the all of the design. If it doesn't exist already [knocking] [Robert:] Sorry. [Rod:] If it doesn't exist already [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] You're not going to get away with that. [LAUGHTER] [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Erm [Robert:] Forgot it was there actually. [Rod:] we we take what er they they want. If if erm a lot of these will probably be lifted from Yellow Pages. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] They'll be lifted from local papers. Ninety nine percent of the time they've got copy that exists. We will change anything they want. We will add anything they want. We will design the full ad for them if they want at no extra cost. [Robert:] Yeah yeah. [Rod:] When they come on and say, Yeah no I haven't advertised before that will cost me extra money. You say, No it won't. All I need for you to tell me right now is you're going to commit yourself to this product and I will come round and we'll sign the contract, all the stuff you told him, then we'll talk about copy and it doesn't cost you anything. We'll do it for you. You get a chance to see the proof and and er erm approve it. Okay? [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] But you will find particularly this size of ad, although it doesn't matter what size the copy is [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] we'll reduce it erm and we'll probably retype it. And we'll juggle it around and give them you know er one or two options. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Let's have a look first all er just step back slightly to the time when the sales exec goes round to sign up the estate agent. He will he will establish from certain facts how many they they think they'll need for us to print. Okay there's a small estate agent will print ten thousand. Now these are guaranteed we guarantee to print these. They can have as many as they want really. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Cos all once it's all set up we can just reprint. But that that will be determined by the sales exec when they go round to sign the contract. Not not by you but by the contact. Okay? And if we're gonna print that number, say thirty five, it automatically internally it will generate that target. And that's the sort of target we're going to look for from that assignment. But there is a cutoff point which we know internally, you won't get to know, where we know we've got enough money to cover all of our costs in that first year. We don't want any costs to come out of the second year cos that's where we make our profit. [Robert:] Profit. Yeah. [Rod:] All the commissions, and you only get paid I say only you get paid commission on the first year. Second year you're on another assignment anyway so it doesn't make no repeat. There's no point in having [Robert:] So there's no repeat business? [Rod:] No. Erm so that's a figure if you like you have have up here in your noodle and say I need to go for that anyway. But you always have this figure certainly slapped in your mind. At four and a half thousand pound of sales we start to pay extra fift in fact at four thousand pound we start but it's only a small bonus so I home in on the bigger one. We pay fifteen percent extra on to all all the business you bring in above that figure. Okay? So you need to have that figure in your mind not necessarily that one. [Robert:] Yeah. Your money making figure. [Rod:] Aha. Now that's just a notional one for us to to target internally make sure all our costs come within a certain [phone rings] Excuse me. Hello. Yes could you invite her to have a cup of tea and I'll be er ten minutes or so. Thank you very much. Bye. Erm okay so where are we up to. Erm yes there's the there's the the er bonus er element. We pay the bonuses at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute okay. All your other commissions thirty percent on all your sales are paid the following week. So there's no waiting around. Do the [Robert:] of it there's plenty in there. [Rod:] you get paid next week. [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] Just to give you an idea of the prices. If you compare the the positions one oh beg your pardon you'll need that out. [Robert:] I'll need that one. [Rod:] When you start the assignment er every assignment you get one of these all right? [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] And you use this to mark off of course [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] where you have erm the ones you've sold. So now you can relate [LAUGHTER] positions one to three [] to how much they cost and so on on the way down. The flap is sold. Even though it looks at first it's a ridiculous thing to do. [Robert:] Oh right. [Rod:] Right. When when when people receive that they tear that off and the flap drops down. And er that [tape change] You study that but that's your work horse. You get a brand new one of these every time. You can have ten percent discount immediately if you need it. But if if we find anybody's a persistent discounter they're causing trouble for the person who comes to resell. [Robert:] That's right. [Rod:] Although it's two years later they've got to resell at the price that er it's been discounted more or less. Unless we can persuade them in two years costs have gone up and of course we will. Typical example. If you homed in on erm one to eight on the flap that would er create the average revenue which is the average across all of our products of six thousand pound. That's what we we find is the average sale. And that's your earning in two to three weeks. Two weeks we hope. Where it's made up of thirty percent commission and the bonuses. Now that's good money in anybody's er [Robert:] Thousand pound a week yeah. [Rod:] If you sold the whole you know it's possible to sell you know it's it's done. In fact I'm not far off there in fact. This is one of ours. I'll explain that one in a minute. If you sold the whole of this that's the earning and you've got to do this [hiccup] excuse me, in three weeks. That's nearly a thousand pound a week. And that's I think what everybody should be trying to aim for. It's there it's available. That's the only freebie there in this particular product. Every time there's a special, it doesn't cost them anything, but anytime they put that in it means they can take this product this this in to that company and get some extra deal. [Robert:] Mm get a discount. [Rod:] Now as soon as anybody puts that in as you'll notice they've nearly all got them in, that's another advantage of course that they will retain this. If they know they can get special deals. So every one of these has got that symbol. As soon as one just one company decides to take that seal we've got to put that ad in somewhere. Now if we sold the whole lot we're gonna [LAUGHTER] struggle a bit. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] But it will be there somewhere okay? Even if it's er [Robert:] But it wouldn't be from nine to twelve? [Rod:] Mm? [Robert:] It wouldn't be from nine to twelve. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] It'll be one of those two. Okay right. [Robert:] Okay. [Rod:] I mean it it'll go in certain into that's a selling pitch too. Because that means that the people have got to take this in. Which means it's it's like a big business card. [Robert:] When you go to er prospective clients. Okay you've talked to them the phone right and you're gonna go and sign them up. [Rod:] Mhm yeah. [Robert:] Right? Do you write in Joe Bloggs [Rod:] Er no. [Robert:] this. [Rod:] I would suggest you didn't. You just say sold and may be have your own code. [Robert:] Right yeah okay. Just in case there was a Jonesy you know. Whether that would work or not. [Rod:] Yeah. If you put if you put Jones the builder there and and er Wilson the builder [Robert:] And you're gonna see another builder. [Rod:] and you're gonna take another builder er they will tell you exactly how to approach that. We do have a statement in our contract that they sign to acknowledge that they are not er don't have a dem right to sole [Robert:] They're they're not exclusive. Yeah. They're not exclusive to advertise in this [Rod:] If it's your last slot and you haven't got another builder you say, Absolutely guarantee there's not gonna be another builder in. I'll give you that guarantee myself the company don't like me doing this but I will guarantee. Because you know there's no other builder if that's your last one. [Robert:] Oh yeah. [LAUGHTER] I thought you meant if there was a builder here and that was the last one you sell you. Tell them lies. [] [Rod:] No no. [Robert:] Evil class admissible today even a lot better than them. Yeah. Right okay. [Rod:] And if a builder gonna go down there you say, Well look I've got one down here but I've got a prime slot [Robert:] Yeah they're all prime slots. [Rod:] they're all prime slots but this one you know you gonna no you're gonna pay a bit more you see. That's the point. This guy's taken this one down here. Well I'll tell you right now I have got another builder on but he's taken one of the er the slots further down but I've got one I've got a prime er the the estate agent asked me to contact you because there is a prime slot left. But I'm you know that that could go this afternoon when I go to a couple of other appointments. [Robert:] And that's basically that charges is it for [Rod:] Yeah. Six fifty for the top three then then down the scale to nine to twelve is four hundred and fifty. On er er the flap in its entirety is twelve hundred pounds. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] If if they take both sides. [Robert:] Yeah which is which is this. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] And and all of that [Rod:] If you do if you do that's six hundred pound all right? And so is that six hundred pound if they want to buy both sides. [Robert:] And that sticky comes off and so they open it yeah and that's [Rod:] You notice they will also sell it as individuals. [Robert:] In in the inside so nothing goes on that. Right okay. [Rod:] Yeah yeah. They'll tell you all about that on the course. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] Okay? [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Right. The outside is the estate agents and I've never known anybody give that up. [Robert:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Cost cost the earth. Okay that's for you to take away. As all this is. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] So if I get that out the way I'm going to go through very quickly the administration that we look for. And the reason why we make sure that when we go to see a prospective advertiser they'll know all these sorts of details. This contract is applicable across, no that's that no that's the one that's the one that we use on. So that you know see that they're all different colours. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Six six contracts all the same print so that if ever we shifted you or wanted you wanted to shift you from estate into to golf or to schools we don't have to retrain you at all. Except may be in the pitch. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] But these are the sorts of things and I'm not going to great detail because the training course does that, these are the things that they will blow you out on. If you don't tell them that you're going to pick up a thirty five percent deposit cheque. [Robert:] Yeah yeah that's [Rod:] They don't know that cos that's your commission cheque. That covers you for us paying you in the next week. [Robert:] That's right yeah. [Rod:] If you don't tell them that we want a banker's order to take out the er annual payments. Right these are the sorts of things if you spring those on them. If you, ah now can I ask you to sign that and then the banker's order [Robert:] And by the way yeah. [Rod:] there's the banker, What's with this banker's order I don't deal with a banker's order. [Robert:] That's right. [Rod:] You didn't tell me anything about the cheque. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] You didn't tell me that there may be two signatories on the cheque. You've got to establish that before you go round. Is it just you who signs the cheque? [Robert:] Yeah okay yeah. [Rod:] And the banker's order. They'll say, Well no the financial director will need it. I'll say, Well we need the financial director there as well. When I come round I need them both there. If you left this anywhere you'd never see it again. [Robert:] No. [Rod:] It's another reason they'll blow you out. [Robert:] You just leave I'll saying, put it in the post for you. [Rod:] Forget it. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] So that's generated two of the bits of information we want the other [Robert:] Is it an annual charge or is it a twelve month payment thing on it, or just an annual charge? [Rod:] Yeah it it's er when you quote a price it's per year for two years minimum all right? [Robert:] Yeah. But is there a facility for a twelve months payment order or [Rod:] No. You mean monthly over twelve months? [Robert:] Yeah. No. So it's just [Rod:] Really don't mess around with that. [Robert:] Right okay. Yeah cos you can print it and then two downs two months down the line they could pull out and you've you've [Rod:] Oh absolutely yeah. [Robert:] printed it for nought. Yeah. [Rod:] I mean we get some people that pull out er cancel or go under and then we don't get the second year's payment. That's nothing to do with you. Not [Robert:] No. [Rod:] even the first year's payment's anything to do with you. Just that deposit cheque. You're not asked to chase any money after that. [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] The other er bits of information of course we need to know what co I've already spoken about the copy. What we will do for them. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] This is the document they use in association with the with the copy. So once we've got that the contract and the cheque, yippee we can send off our commission form at the end of the week with all the deals in the envelope. And that's what we use. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] There's one written out so it looks at least. You have your own number [Robert:] Number. [Rod:] the assignment has it's unique number [Robert:] Number [Rod:] You just list out the advertisers, we list out the type of contract it is. There are one or two exceptions on medical side that er we we call on the approved list [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Don't need cont er don't need banker's orders and they don't need cheques but we have to have an order from the company. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] attached. [Robert:] Are these erm inclusive of VAT or is there no VAT on advertising any more? [Rod:] Yes there is yes. Yeah there [Robert:] So those places haven't? [Rod:] They're exclusive of VAT. When you quote six hundred and fifty pound plus VAT. [Robert:] Right that's okay right. But the commission's paid on net? [Rod:] Yes. Yeah. That's that's actually [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] That's the cost of the ad exclusive of VAT. If you are VAT registered yourself of course [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] and we hope most people would be because thirty six thousand pound, if they're all earning thirty six thousand [Robert:] I used to well I was VAT but pulled out. [Rod:] I still am. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Erm that's the amount of you commission and that's probably the lowest er you know the lowest that er you'd get well three hundred and fifty pounds. So you'd just be about a hundred and I think a hundred and ten is the lowest commission you get for any deal in our company. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] And the highest is somewhere around seven hundred and fifty I think for one deal. Same same contract they're signing same contract. The size of the ad is bigger. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] I mentioned earlier on that you you get paid erm bonuses at proof stage. That's where you claim. And they have to be claimed. Every two months a list of numbers of the assignments that have been proofed, that means all the ads have been done across the products and all the proofs have been sent out, we've also clai got the balance of the first year's payment. We are now prepared to pay you bonuses. [Robert:] Right so we get paid the extra fifteen or whatever [Rod:] If you're entitled you will know exactly you will keep a record don't worry. [Robert:] Oh I think so yeah. [Rod:] When er when you spot that number on the list that comes out to you you can claim. And that's where you claim. A lot of people leave it in there to accrue to pay tax or whatever. It's a good idea actually. [Robert:] Yeah it's [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] You won't forfeit it but you still have to remember you've gotta claim for it all the time. So claimed his after two years recently and got about six thousand pound. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] New car or whatever holiday. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. But you you're entitled to it so you can claim it any time you want. [Robert:] You just keep a note of it and [Rod:] I think this is for you Robert this this er this job not this job this opportunity. [Robert:] Yeah yes. Different exciting intriguing. [Rod:] Super. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Right now I've we've got some new documentation for the wallets. Erm what I need to do now is just so I'm gonna have to cross a few things out. What I'll try and do is to remember to send you the new documentation. But for now I'll and you're happy to start with us any time yeah? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Fully expensed course. Got your own car haven't you I hope? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Good. I've got to look a one of the notes here hang on. Erm we've got one going at the moment so week commencing the seventh of February. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] All right? That's only the week after next so give you an i er a chance to [Robert:] Week Monday. And are they at? [Rod:] And that's at. So what we do on wallets we send we have people for three days in house all right? We give them a three day intensive in in a in fully expensed by us. We pay your travel costs there we pay your hotel bill and we then send individuals out er for two days with a top earner stroke trainer. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Now I don't know where that is it could be anywhere. But wherever possible if somebody's working in your area right now we'd send you there. If they're they're in that top echelon. [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] Otherwise we might have to [Robert:] Is that a three day residential course? [Rod:] Three day residential and then two days out in the field [Robert:] Two days out in the field. [Rod:] It could mean you staying away from home but we pay your expenses then okay? [Robert:] Yeah that's no problem. [Rod:] Right so first of all that's Monday. Okay. Erm and it's I I just men mentioned here the company is Publications. [Robert:] Yeah I noticed that on the top of the [Rod:] Yes okay I make a note that [Robert:] contract. [Rod:] Now on F oh sorry on Monday the seventh er oh sorry on Friday the fourth I would like you to phone into this this er phone in to head office ask for Publications. [Robert:] Right. [Rod:] being. Er I've got I've gotta just change these. I'm gonna put figures here.... We've got some new erm er stuff that's Monday to Wednesday right? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] So on the following Thursday and Friday, I hope you'll remember these will you. Sorry it's a bit messy. [Robert:] The following Thursday and Friday. [Rod:] Yeah. So on the Monday you'll be working on your own assignment. So er take out that and put Sunday. So you stay Sunday you Monday night with the Tuesday night and you don't need the Wednesday night. You do need the. You're there for three days and and Sunday night. So that's Sunday Monday [Robert:] Yes that's what I was gonna ask you do you arrive early morning or do you move in the Sunday night. [Rod:] Okay da de da I don't need that any more. Three days now that's you you'll know what I mean here don't you? [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Sorry about this. That is now Thursday to Friday otherwise all the stuff... that's the hotel you'll be staying at okay? Oh actually no Sunday evening and that is that's Wednesday. All right? [Robert:] Yep. [Rod:] If you read all this through [LAUGHTER] and be just totally confused []. What did I say the Parkwater Hotel?... Yep Parkwater which is there. It's got a swimming pool so. [Robert:] Oh I'll pack me trunks. [Rod:] Pack your swimmies. [Robert:] Pack me trunks. [Rod:] Right now what I do now can I just have there's there's a form here [Robert:] I will get a letter of confirmation through will I? [Rod:] Oh yeah this will all be in writing to you. [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] Okay. We will pay the travel costs to and then out on your assign er sorry out on your two days out. If you had to stay away on your two days you're out with the trainer then we will pay you thirty pound a night subsistence. [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] Okay he will know exactly where [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] He or she the trainer will know exactly where you get some good deals okay? If I can ask you to sign to say you know that. [Robert:] [reading] Any expenses reimbursed by. [] All right. [Rod:] But we pick up the hotel at [Robert:] Printed signature that's [Rod:] I know. [Robert:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] This has all been changed I'm afraid this it's it's all in the process of being changed and then inserted into these er these are older packs I'm getting just using up.... Okay. There's a copy there for you. [Robert:] Oh there's one for me right. [Rod:] So you know what you've signed. There you go. [Robert:] Right okay. [Rod:] Super. I've got that I've got that I must make a note of this. of the seven stroke two and all I need now is your photograph. [Robert:] Oh boy you lucky person. [Rod:] Do you normally wear your glasses all the time? [Robert:] Yeah all the time yeah. [Rod:] Yeah fine. [Robert:] They're not cosmetic. [sniff] Unfortunately. [Rod:] Right. Now just relax and smile please. [Robert:] Passport passport photo [noise of camera]. [Rod:] Good. Now you need to bring four passport photographs with you by the way. [Robert:] Yeah I was going to ask that. [Rod:] But if you read all that documentation end to end twice three times however you need [Robert:] Yeah. [Rod:] to absorb it all I'd be grateful. [Robert:] Is there many from the north do you get many out of this area? [Rod:] Er well I come up here about every two to three weeks and then then I leave it for about two months and then er you know do it that way. [Robert:] Er cos er my son-in-law I mean I put on the form right I've got no children right. [Rod:] Yeah. [Robert:] I read that as the dependants. [Rod:] Okay fine yes. [Robert:] Right my youngest is nineteen and she's at university so [Rod:] No problem. If you er if you're gonna recommend somebody you thinking about doing that? [Robert:] Well I was just going to say that he's in advertising. Er [Rod:] Oh I see okay. [Robert:] er with the er the Evening Chronicle. Right and that's why I wanting to see whether. Cos he goes out you know and calls into businesses and things like that right. Er and I asked him if he'd heard of you and he said no. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Well we different. [Robert:] And I thought different type of advertising doesn't you know. [Rod:] We will in fact be er I mean I advertise in the er I am a client of his and we will we will be looking at the same he will be a competitor of ours in some fields. But they they will have [Robert:] Yeah your local field agent out here would only be [Rod:] And not only that er go into the Newcastle Evening Chronicle it's dumped the next day. [Robert:] Mm? [Rod:] And all of our products are er retained. [Robert:] That's right today's days is just tomorrow's fish and chips isn't it? [Rod:] Absolutely yeah. [Robert:] Er [Rod:] Okay well thanks very much Robert [Robert:] And yourself. [Rod:] Look forward to seeing you over in head office sometime. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Apologies for absence [Steve:] Councillor Peter, Mrs Pat, Sir John, Mr Peter and Mrs and David apologize, they will be attending but they'll be a few minutes late. [Lynn:] Alright. Minutes of the meeting held on the seventeenth November. [speaker001:] ... [Lynn:] Right, er matters arising from the minutes.... Nothing on page one, page two, page three, page four, page five, page six, page seven. [David:] Yeah page seven er er I think that speaking from memory we did want that made clear that that er was the recognition of the achievements of the groundsman handyman, particularly in relation to the high standards of upkeep in the park. [speaker001:] That's right. [David:] I think it's important that that should er be madam chairman. We also agreed that erm performance assessment reports in the future would be provided by the chair and finance after considering the recommendations of the chairman of the recreation ground committee and the clerk. [Lynn:] Don't these minutes [David:] No no no I didn't query them [Lynn:] Sorry. [David:] because, but I just felt that er those particular aspects were important for future year, because of the er discussions that took place. Erm we are dealing with public funds and er and those that particular minute I think relate to detailed discussions that took place before approval was given. [Steve:] I wrote to both and the handyman and said that is was for a performance related bonus and er [David:] Yeah that's fine. [Lynn:] An anything else from the minutes?... Can we go on to the minutes of the committee meeting of sixth December then. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Lynn:] Anything arising from them... page one... page two... page three... Right, we we're not doing the minutes for the tenth of January because you've only just got the copies this evening so that's being erm, we'll go through those at the next meeting.... Financial statement, bills for payment.... [speaker001:] queries [Lynn:] Has anyone got any queries about them? [speaker001:] [cough] [Lynn:] Erm can I just mention then about the car park and the total cost of it now. Okay. Erm just to go over the payments for the car park which has come up actually under community industries and the plants, the total being now for plants it was four hundred and forty four pounds er and the gravel, right gravel and plants and what was the other bit? [speaker001:] And there was some wood for planking [Lynn:] Wood for planking. Erm and then the actual, the labour charges from the er what are they called [speaker001:] Community [Lynn:] Community community industries, labour charges for car park were eight hundred and twenty two fifty but that's got to have the VAT deducted from it. Erm so it's a total of approximately one thousand [speaker001:] Skip hire. Skip hire. [Lynn:] Oh skip hire as, four hundred pounds. That makes it a total of about one thousand five hundred. From that we have six hundred and fifty allowed for the car park from last year for paper bank money, four hundred and five recycle money just come in, [speaker001:] Yes. [Lynn:] from the paper bank and four hundred pounds worth of grant, two hundred from the county council and two hundred from the district council, so added up car park. Mm. Okay? [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Lynn:] Yes. [Roger:] Yes. I I mean I think I think in retrospect the erm this isn't intended as a criticism erm of past work, but I do think we need to look at getting as much volunteer help in the town towards volun volunt environmental achievements as possible because one of our one of our claims is that we're cost effective and can galvanize voluntary effort, and if we erm put all of our work out to tender including relatively small works, we're actually going to negate that particular claim and we're gonna look as as as er cost cost wasteful as the district council and the county council in their use of professional help all the time, even though there may be people in the community who are prepared to help. I think we need to plan our projects so that we can galvanize voluntary efforts as much as possible, particularly in small projects er when they come up in future. I think that's an important part of our claim. Erm we criticize the county council because it's always using professional professional work rather than voluntary help, er because that's the way they choose to do it, er if we continue this line. [Lynn:] I think can I just say one thing we did actually h it wasn't community industry erm the people that did it I don't know [speaker001:] They they trained that's the [Roger:] to be honest because erm it's and that I won't say that there's a criticism of this particular project which I supported at the time but I think that in future we do need to plan our projects and and there are people in the in the town that are prepared to work, perhaps need a bit of organizing, we need to think about how that might happen, but we mustn't first reaction go to professional or semiprofessional help. [Lynn:] Any more [Christine:] erm it may be erm a a good idea to use it as a erm as a first scheme perhaps to erm to try and er car park and if you look at that at the beginning and just keep it on a on a rolling programme then all that doesn't get so enormous er it doesn't get such a a large task so maybe if er, but it does need coordinating perhaps we should think about it. [Lynn:] Yes. Right. Any any other comments on the financial statements? [Madeleine:] Can you tell me what a planting of a quick is? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Stuart:] When the men installed the new er fence on the nature reserve, [Madeleine:] Mm. [Stuart:] that so it doesn't look like a new fence we planted quick. [Madeleine:] And plants are they? [Stuart:] Yes quick plants. I'm sorry. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] Right well [Peter:] I haven't been to one of the meetings so I can't remember who the, but how are all these contained within the budget, all these costs, and have they all been approved and agreed? [Lynn:] What [Peter:] The the bills for payment. I haven't actually done the tally backwards and forwards. [Lynn:] I think so. Is there anything that to comment on that? [speaker001:] Well er the bills during the month of December and early January erm hire of waste paper skip... erm if you if query, the reason we hired the chain saws to save ourselves spending thousands of pounds on doing tree works. We've now got a trained erm chain saw operator working for us. That's saved us about nine hundred and forty pounds. The three hour the recreation chairman asked that we er, standard bills for garage for petrol and Centre for the standard items,. Er I'd like to mention the contribution to the market square refurbishment. Erm Jim asked me if we could pay up er as soon as the job had been done to help them with their cash flow situation district council. Erm I I've allowed Don to have a jacket as he was getting soaked. Erm Out of interest madam chairman, does that mean we've paid the total amount that we we said that we would contribute? [Lynn:] Yes. [speaker001:] So on the second stage of the refurbishment they're going to pay for the lot? [Lynn:] Yes. [speaker001:] Er the account of contribution towards cost of the installation of two new footpath lights, this is on the footpath that runs between the School, Church Street side and the minster. Er there was a lady fell over about two months ago on that footpath just at the beginning of the winter, and the cathedral council offered to pay for the installation of a light and what we did we contributed seventy seven pounds which is sixty including V A T to enable a second light to be installed because of the two steps on that footpath, one at each end, erm [Peter:] Did that, I can't remember that coming to the council, did that come to the council? [speaker001:] No, no the chairman erm agreed that one out of committee. The reason for that is they wanted to go ahead and produce the two lights. Erm, what happened was the cathedral council one light in at a cost of four hundred and fifty pounds but they couldn't afford the second light, so we got some money from erm the residents who contributed some money, we got some money from the school and there was a shortfall of sixty six pounds thirty one pence for the total bill, so the chairman er. [Lynn:] Er we do actually have money in the budget for the actual erm [speaker001:] So it may just [Lynn:] so it could actually come out of that couldn't it? [speaker001:] There is [Peter:] Chairman chairman there seem to be when I looked at it there seem to a number of headings here that I couldn't account for and I've asked the chair of the finance committee, she couldn't account for them either, and I think it's, whilst I understand the reasons for going and I'm sure we would have approved them, I think it's actually quite important that all these small sums,wh when you add them up over this erm over this month and you look at them, are quite large over the budget that we have have already adopted and the things that we wanted to do, and it concerns me that some of these things which are maybe very sensible, actually reduce our effectiveness of doing things that the council's agreed that they are going to do this year and next year, the seventy six pounds here, the thirty pounds later on, fifty four pounds for large thorn plants et cetera, et cetera, and a hundred and fifty pounds over the budget on the Christmas lights. All of those extra sums, if you total them up, we're talking about quite a lot of money over the budget and that's why I'm getting concerned because there seems to be some between what the budget said we were going to do and what a chairman here and a chairman there has agreed, and I I'd like to get it back onto position. [speaker001:] Yes I I would agree with that but I wondered, I think perhaps it should be the finance committee, I mean cos I understood that most of these these items are contained within the existing budget, because I mean the individual committees do have have the power to the monies within their own, and I it has it I would agree with Peter that if we have gone over and above the that the committee were working to but I understood that that was not the case, so I. [Lynn:] Would you like to comment on that. [speaker001:] Yes. There are a number of areas erm John expression was and yet it is possible to find the monies. The the problem we had is because if in December, when we put the Christmas lights up for example, to use that as prime example, we put one erm harness I think it's called on the tree, it was absolutely pathetic. Erm so the Chairman erm erm agreed to this additional purchase. There was no meeting in in erm December. in December so it wasn't actually possible to to sort out these these queries. And I accept there are a number here of items, I mean there's er another one that Peter mentions which was the er large thorn plants to discourage the children from climbing the newly erected fence at the nature reserve. The problem there was the children climbing the fence and with just having spent five hundred and eighty pounds putting a fence up, spent another fifty four pounds although it's not in the budget, I accept that, er was er a necessary expenditure which I took a decision on straight away because I didn't want to see our five hundred pound fence being knocked down within a week of being put up. So I I accept there are a number of items here which I discussed with the chairman and he agreed to. But, I I agree. [Lynn:] any more comments on the financial statement and the bills for payment now? [speaker001:] correspondence. [Lynn:] Right that's [speaker001:] Two items. [Lynn:] Two items. one of the quotes a new mower from [speaker001:] Having received three quotes from three different companies, I wanted the company chosen to agree that they wouldn't exceed a certain price and they have confirmed that the mower we've chosen will not exceed eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds and this is for everything, this is the mower including the new cab erm and all the fittings that we wanted included on mower. [Lynn:] Right items correspond [speaker001:] actually agreeing to that quotation, I wanted to be sure what the other figures were. That was done at a previous meeting, it was Yes [Lynn:] I don't You're not agreeing to it are you? [speaker001:] No we are. [Lynn:] are we? [speaker001:] It's already been ordered. [Lynn:] Oh it's been ordered? [speaker001:] There there was a a to Madam Chairman where we thought that erm three quotations should be retained, [Lynn:] Mm. [speaker001:] erm I can't recall erm any quotations having been put for approval but neither can I find anything [Lynn:] No. [speaker001:] the last council meeting erm so I'm a bit confused as to where we discussed it. [Lynn:] We'll find, while he's just finding that look there's just one more item that's erm a Christmas card from so I'll pass that round so you can have a while we're just trying to find. [speaker001:] Perhaps it was the October meeting, I can't remember. No. I don't think it was. [Lynn:] But I don't know [speaker001:] ... [LAUGHTER] Madam Chairman I recall giving three quotes, twenty one thousand something, nineteen thousand something and eighteen Oh well to confirm that I I've heard it somewhere I mean I'm sure it was one of the meetings. It was. Mm. [Lynn:] But wh well what are you looking for now, to see if we actually made a decision on it? [speaker001:] Yes. No I asked you for formally for permission to go ahead and go ahead with the. I've looked er erm [Lynn:] I think it was when we actually settled the erm the budget er for the various. [speaker001:] You know if everybody's happy that we've accepted the lowest quote then fine. [Lynn:] Right that that was just a letter for reference anyway [speaker001:] Yeah. [Lynn:] wasn't it? [speaker001:] Ca can you repeat that figure again please? Yes sixteen sorry eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds. Thank you. Plus V A T. Plus V A T. [Lynn:] Right move onto corres oh no no sorry, representatives' reports. Does anyone have any reports on any of the committees? [speaker001:] Just as a matter of interest I was gonna bring up onto the er planning minutes for the tenth of January but as I wasn't allowed er The I had a phone call from the electricity board following the erm erm discussions that we had about the power supply on Road, they'd received a follow up enquiry from the press, if you recall we expressed concern that we thought that secured following the harsh winter three years ago. [Lynn:] Sorry just what item is this under, is it... are you [speaker001:] It's representatives' reports. I'm representing you as the consultative. [LAUGHTER] The reason I'm I'm bringing this up is that the gentleman in question wants to come to the parish council and put on a a short video of the electricity board's er er activities in this area. He's aware of concern expressed by Parish Council and he's going to see them and he will be very happy to come and er speak to us and answer any questions that we wish him to, so I advised him to contact the clerk to make arrangements. I thought this would sort of save Steve having to write a letter as as he'd been er instructed to do. I didn't know where else to get it in. [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] Erm Mr. [Peter:] Er yes chairman. The I'm your representative for the minster governors and I'll be slipping out later on this evening if I may of the installation of the new headteacher, that will be seven minutes time so if you'll excuse me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] Alright. [Peter:] appointments which. So perhaps we might need to do might want to until I return, which I shouldn't think will take too long. [Lynn:] So you won't be very long then? [Peter:] No. [Lynn:] Right. Er Christine. [Christine:] Having said nothing about the er the charity erm erm the meeting on erm the meetings four times a year and we're quite but there are some available for erm people erm and particularly to erm we agreed a list of people who wished to give them Christmas gifts, cash but I'm sure they would help and and erm the names of people who who might need help er are always welcome so if I could just erm erm ask people to let me know if they know of anyone financial help. [Lynn:] Thank you, erm anyone else? [Madeleine:] Well I don't know what this comes under but last or er last Saturday week I had several complaints about the old market square, you know where er and shop is. It was an absolute disgrace, it really was a disgrace, and so as we'd been informed by somebody at, now don't ask me who cos I don't know, but from one of the public meetings we held, er they said you can phone up any time and you y the rubbish would be collected. So I took them at their word and phoned them up. Well the man nearly went through the roof and er, this was a Saturday morning, of course he didn't come, and in the meantime I had another replai re complaint about the path outside the W I hall, again which was a disgrace, not one person but several people. And erm, and then on the Sunday morning, it was the local tradespeople erm who were taking down the Christmas trees and things, they had to clear up, they didn't have to but they did clear up the mess, it was a disgrace. When the man came from I wouldn't know, but I just felt as a op coopted parish councillor that I should make my voice heard on behalf of all the people that complain to me. [Lynn:] Right. [Madeleine:] That's all. [Lynn:] Right [Madeleine:] I mean perhaps Saturday morning isn't the right time to phone but it was [Lynn:] probably erm the clerk could perhaps deal with that then. [Madeleine:] Mm. If they do query it, cos I mean erm it really was a disgrace and I I'm pretty tolerant. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I think madam chairman you'll find that there's in the administration that er an officer, he's left and I think replaced. That's probably why she got the response she did. mm. [Lynn:] Thank you, we can follow up that up anyway, erm [Madeleine:] Only because so many people complain, I mean I just had to do something. [speaker001:] I did phone the hot line earlier in the week, er because the bin outside School hadn't been emptied for since before Christmas er cos I put a hub cap in there myself [LAUGHTER] which was in the middle of the road, but I phoned them and to be fair to them they responded very politely, very pleasantly, and dealt with it straight away, so erm [Lynn:] Mm. [speaker001:] apart from the fact by the wayside they did respond immediately. [Lynn:] I I've I've only got one report that I went to erm a meeting of the youth club erm in December I think it was, we just had sort of general discussions, nothing really to report erm back on that. We discussed erm erm other places for people to meet et cetera has actually been closed down, some some problem with the isn't it, erm but they can't use it for the public so erm that was, it was just left that we'll have another meeting in March and looking around for alternative places to meet, but that's all to report on that. erm can I suggest then that we questions from from the public. Anyone oh one member of the public here, did you want to No, no. Right then. We can't do item eight because Peter is going to talk about it and he's gone. Could we defer it erm and do the other items first? Is that okay? number eight at the end. Now we can do the reports on the car park. Er Roger, could you do that one please? [Roger:] Er yes. W we have looked into er the question of car parking in Southwell and the possibility of charging for long term parking. Erm the views of the er of the subcommittee are that that this does appear to be er perhaps a practical solution er and at the moment, er we are looking to erm make some of the spaces, certainly in the Church Street car park erm short term, I E two hours, certainly so the people who are who are making shopping visits, or visits to the banks et cetera would get the lower car park and the the people who are staying for a longer time would be at the top. Er in relation to King Street er car park, there are there are complications in relation to er the usage of the car parking spaces erm and the health centre and on street car parking erm and we are going to do er further work in surveying the usage of those spaces and how we could perhaps better allocate them to ensure that there are erm spaces available for people who need to get to the surgery and the subcommittee will be reporting back to the council. Erm the cost of capital costs of of signing er will also be looked at and then a further report from the subcommittee to the council. [Lynn:] Does anyone have any comments? [speaker001:] Could I ask through you chair er how this system is going to be policed? [Stuart:] That is the problem erm in so far as initially er we felt that it that that the onus would be on the individual, I E if it's a short term stay car park they would not use it. Erm and one would have to see the the effectiveness of that. What one doesn't want to do er is is by having to police the situation cause a charge to be erm brought up against the council. Erm so it's a question of how one can best do it, but initially it would be er the onus would go on the individual to use the the spaces not designated as short stay. [speaker001:] I think the regrettable thing about the parking in in the town is the way that some of the disabled slots at the surgery are taken by the cars of people who are perfectly able to walk from the car park, and I think the great problem we're going to have is we're going to rely on the public spiritedness of our fellow townspeople and there does seem to be a fair group of people who are extremely selfish when it comes to come to parking. [Madeleine:] Well shall I tell you that a certain member of the er medical staff, you know they've got bollards where the staff can put their cars in a certain place, and one member of the staff came out and said, please remove your car it's in the staff parking part, the person said, yes I even had to move the bollard. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeleine:] Well I mean how do you win [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'm not sure. [LAUGHTER] I think we have quite a task of public education. [LAUGHTER] [Madeleine:] I don't know what happened but I think. [speaker001:] The problem in the doctors' surgery, I mean you've got people taking ill sick children round there with high temperatures and, and they do tend want to park close to the surgery, er and if they see a space they will obviously use it. I think it's a difficult situation, I mean I know in er in Nottingham now, if the car parks are full, you actually get directed by the attendant to use a disabled space. Erm so it does mean that as parking becomes more and more congested, it the subject does become more and more topical. But I agree with Stuart, I think what we've got be careful is that if we're gonna introduce something, it is actually erm capable of being enforced and it's very difficult to see us an enforcing agent. If I recall er when that er the King Street car park was given to the town by the benefactors we did want entrance er at the top end of the car park for the people who shopped which saved a lot of people coming round that dangerous corner where you know we've had one fatal accident there, and I just wondered whether we should take this under the umbrella while er we're actually discussing it. Well that's interesting because yes we have we have discussed that and I don't know whether the er the clerk wants to comment further but I think that is absolutely right and and if that could be taken further it would be of very positive benefit to you know the car parking problem for those people who want to shop on King Street and have difficulties in find a car parking space. The district council actually commented to me that they'd like to see that entrance opened where that er derelict building is at the top end of Church Street car park, which would be an ideal entrance. We did nearly get it through once didn't we, years ago? No, no. I can't remember what snag, I think the person or something, I can't remember details but we nearly had an entrance at that end of the car park which in my opinion was you know, a lot of the people There is an entrance at the moment. The top of the top of Church Street car park through top of Church Street car park to King Street. Well how [Lynn:] There needs to be an entrance there then? [speaker001:] No, no. [Lynn:] For pedestrians you're suggesting, not [speaker001:] Pedestrians. Oh yes oh yes pedestrians. Oh yes, sorry. Well can I say that er we'll we'll take that on board rather more positively, [Lynn:] Mm. [speaker001:] er at the subcommittee and report back. And and can the clerk look into the details when this, I think. [Steve:] Yes. [speaker001:] You know, there should be some document somewhere. Erm I'd hate it to er we get charging away and We aren't intending to charge. No, well income from that? No we're not, no we're not er [Lynn:] Anyone else anything to add on that? No? Purchase of play equipment for Gardens playing field and the recreation ground.. We have actually erm got a number of leaflets and brochures on play equipment but erm as was mentioned at the last meeting I was going to get together with David and the clerk to discuss future plans for play equipment but we haven't actually had a meeting yet cos we're still getting information from various reps and playground equipment companies and erm we'll leave that item for now. Erm item sorry [speaker001:] Wh while you're on that madam chairman, I've had two persons er contact me as regarding, you know playing field and er it's a no go for dogs isn't it, and th and we therefore the people have mentioned they had to go down the side of the playing field onto the onto the old, and er have we an obligation to er to pave not pave it but er make it, it's a very steep bank, a very steep old ladies daren't go down, and they know they're breaking the law by taking the dog in the in the er recreation ground, and I just wondered whether we had an obligation to er. Those people with dogs in that sort of situation are very welcome to walk through the playing field and then out the other side and away, I wouldn't stop them going over from that entrance to the to the top entrance. Well and er I was just wondering we we ought to do something, I mean these poor old dears have adhered to what we have said and facilities for them to get down onto to the er the. I would accept that bank is very steep, Yes it is, it is very steep. Erm erm it's not a very. greasy you know, terrible, the poor old dears daren't go. They're they're tongue in cheek going across the recreation ground, thinking that we're going to pounce on them because they're not allowed in there. So you know, it's a for them. I would say I think that's a very good point chairman now can we ask perhaps either our groundsman or or or whatever to look at it to see if something to make it safer for these these people to er get access to. [Lynn:] I was going to suggest something similar but erm, can we say is is it public footpath er [speaker001:] Yes well it [Lynn:] sort of track are contacting the people who done a very good job on the on the public footpath erm and that was actually going through our land, and they done some steps with erm you know erm wooden erm supports in them, er maybe in in conjunction with, was it? [speaker001:] Was it the ramblers? Er the ramblers they [Madeleine:] The ramblers did it, the Newark ramblers, they did they did the one at the bottom of Lane. [Lynn:] Now this is the one on Road. [Madeleine:] Oh. [Lynn:] If you could find out who who did that and Was it, and possibly give us some help but erm [Christine:] Can I just make one point er all the footpaths need rain so it might just be but conditions at the moment are just very bad I think generally anyway. [Lynn:] Mm. Any more on on that subject of the erm playground, no? Shall we put in item eight now as Peter is back. back to item eight then. [Peter:] If you'd er allow me to go back to item seven briefly. Erm this news is until twelve noon please tomorrow. Er the appoi the governors have just made an appointment of erm to the headship of who's the current deputy head, senior deputy at, he'll be taking up his appointment er at Easter. [clears throat] [Madeleine:] did you say, not Flintstone? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeleine:] mm. [Peter:] [clears throat] I apologize. Erm find some empty chairs. [clears throat]. We still haven't got a name for this er facility, been dragging on for some time. [speaker001:] Mm. [Peter:] We er actually do need to decide what the name ought to be. [Lynn:] Er we have got one suggestion here from Madeleine and that's sports park, anyone else? [speaker001:] What about the er centenary sports ground? Well that would certainly be my favourite, we we'll be coming up to our hundredth anniversary aren't we fairly soon? Erm really this has been to a large extent I think a parish council initiative and I'm sure all the members of this council are enthusiastic supporters of grassroots democracy in the role of parish councils. [LAUGHTER] a few years er beyond er our why not celebrate our own centenary? high profile I think centenary park has quite a ring to it. [Lynn:] No centenary park not centenary sports ground then? [speaker001:] That's a bit of a mouthful. [Lynn:] Centenary park. Do was there any other suggestions? Cos we ought to decide tonight because it's been going on a long time. [Madeleine:] Centenary, a centenary in our parish last year wasn't it? [speaker001:] The centenary's this this year Eighteen ninety four, the local government act. It had a stormy passage through parliament. It created parish councils. [Madeleine:] It's an ideal name. [Lynn:] Does anyone have any suggest any more suggestions? [speaker001:] Yes madam chairman. Er centenary seems and I know we are round this table [LAUGHTER] and I was thinking of the benefactor who actually offered this er [cough] facility for for us to take it up, and er I would like to see may be er some something incorporated, there was one suggestion of a Bramley park or something of that nature wasn't there in those suggestions we had, have we still got that one, could you could you just er inform me what it really said? [Lynn:] Erm I don't know, we didn't er did we formally If we decide on the first then we can decide whether it's a park or a sports ground or or what shall we do? Shall we shall we put them to the vote, how shall we do this? [speaker001:] Well I I'm I think that er I'm less worried about dating it cos I think it actually quite important to date it, like the war memorial ground and actually fairly closely although it's not actually dated to the end of the war, I mean it was nineteen fifty two when it was established. But it ties it in to a date and I think in a similar way, erm centenary which is the only thing we're going to do offic I think that it could be the only thing we do to celebrate our hundred years of existence apart from a small exhibition in. [Lynn:] Can I make one more suggestion one, to combine two of these to call it Southwell Centenary Park, would that make it any better? Well it's just another idea. There were comments last time about trying to give it a name so people realized where it was. [speaker001:] That it was in. [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] Or you could call it Brinkley Centenary [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] But is it just the centenary of the parish council, that's why I thought of the Southwell bit but what do y, what about that [speaker001:] Can I ask madam chairman, is it is it for anything else except football? [Lynn:] I don't know. [speaker001:] Well facilities for anything else, other than football? I think the answer is yes. [Lynn:] Mm. But it's football initially cos they've shown an interest and I think that the pitch is there for anybody. [speaker001:] and the summer uses. Given our advancing years John croquet. [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] Well what, shall I read what we've got so far then? [Madeleine:] Excuse me,do won't the schoolchildren asked at one stage [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Madeleine:] didn't they come up with anything? [speaker001:] Nothing. I phoned them last week and said you know have you got any suggestions, and they said they'd come back to me and they haven't. [Christine:] They're too busy on the national curriculum. [Lynn:] The I mean there's not a huge choice here is there, we've got two or three words, you've got Southwell Sports Park, Centenary Park, Bramley Park, Brinkley Park, erm what do you think, shall we have a vote on it, how shall we do this? [speaker001:] Can I propose that we vote either to go for Southwell Centenary cos I think they are the fav either or, and then we also have another vote for Bramley or Brinkley and then we have a vote between the winners of either of those two, [LAUGHTER] because then that gives us a chance of voting for a for a third option. Is this is this matter madam chairman [LAUGHTER] is this matter urgent or important or is it urgent and important? [Lynn:] Well I think that it's gone on a long time and it's not [Madeleine:] It has. [Lynn:] it's not that hard to decide a name, I think we ought to [speaker001:] Well I think that what you're in danger of coming up with is a camel. Erm no seriously I think it really shouldn't take long, you're quite right to sort this matter out but I think three people really should go away and come back with a suggestion or a couple of suggestions. Yes. Because you're going to get into a situation where you're taking amendments to the amendment and you well with great respect I think you would be better to duck out at this stage. [Lynn:] But we did mention this at the last meeting didn't we? [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Lynn:] And we did put forward ideas then as well. [speaker001:] Well as I say, I think three people would make a better of it and come back with their recommendations.. [Lynn:] Let's let's let's ask who would like to vote on it now then. Who thinks we should decide it now? [speaker001:] Chairman, we have something on the agenda. We're going to name the sports ground, I think we should stick to the agenda. [Lynn:] We should name it. [speaker001:] Can I ask you a que Erm it seems silly to me to call it anything other than by the name of the place where it is. I mean it seems stupid to call it Bramley. Brinkley, everybody knows where Brinkley is. Or if they ask for Brinkley, people can be guided there. It's er sort of like calling a place in Easthorpe Westhorpe. [LAUGHTER] I think the fact is that er we are in a situation where up and down the country parish councils have been er doing things and organizing events and er providing facilities to mark one hundred years of er er of parish local services [cough] and this particular project, a lot of hard work has gone into it by members of the parish council and er I think it's perfectly appropriate, and the ground was bought, it wasn't donated, er it's come of the er erm the funds that parish council receives from er residents and I think that it's perfectly appropriate that it should mark one hundred years of parish local government. We have the county council and the district councils telling us what a good job they do at the present time, spending a lot of money in doing it, we have provided this largely out of our own efforts, we've got grants from er other bodies, I think it's something that we should properly erm hallmark as an initiative of this parish council to celebrate one hundred years of parish government, and I would propose centenary field. [Lynn:] Centenary field. [speaker001:] the reason I stated that is there's plenty of football grounds that are known as fields. Erm a park tends to give the impression of being like a memorial park, erm equally it's not just earmarked for football, which is it could be er seen as just that, the idea was that it would provide facilities for all types of sports and interests throughout the er throughout the area, particularly er girls, I know girls play football but there's a lot of interest in er sport particularly hockey, and I personally wouldn't like to see it just dominated by football. Erm so the term field I think is perfectly acceptable to mean all things to all people. Erm [Madeleine:] a ground [speaker001:] Well [Madeleine:] Southwell, I mean Centenary Sports Ground. [Lynn:] Well le, shall we take a vote on the first word and then decide whether it's a park, a sports field or a a sports park or whatever? [speaker001:] Chairman before before we do that could I just make an observation on [Lynn:] Yes. [speaker001:] what er Councillor said. I think er he has a a very valid point but I think whatever we call it, it doesn't include the location. The location's going to be appended. [Lynn:] Mm. [speaker001:] So if we call it Centenary Sports Ground, the next thing that will be added to it is Brinkley, the Centenary Sports Ground, Brinkley, which is fine. And I think erm that the issue of location is going to be resolved anyway whether we add it to the name or not. Yes quite right. I mean clubs that are arranging fixtures will be responsible for telling, they'll know where it is, and they'll be responsible for telling people who are coming there where it is. We don't need to go into [cough] address, I used to play for Caythorpe Cricket Club, half the clubs used to go to Caythorpe in Lincolnshire before they found us. [Lynn:] If we eliminate the name of the place as being the first word, we're down to Centenary or Bramley then. You wouldn't? [speaker001:] No. [Lynn:] Well can somebody suggest on this thing cos I'm so confused now. [speaker001:] Well could we have centenary title [Lynn:] Right yes. [Madeleine:] I will hold with that. [Lynn:] Right who who thinks that the word centenary should be in the title then?... Okay. [speaker001:] Seven. [Lynn:] Do again? No. [speaker001:] Well you should really. [Lynn:] centenary being in the title. So centenary's got to be in the title then, yes? Next word, is it going to be a sports park, a field [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] or a sports ground? [Madeleine:] Weren't you going to ask weren't you going to suggest that three people choose this? [Lynn:] What about Centenary Field Brinkley then? [Christine:] Well we know it's at Brinkley don't we? [speaker001:] But that will be added, we don't need to discuss that. [Lynn:] Right the next word then, should it be field or a sports park? [speaker001:] Or sports. [Madeleine:] Or sports ground. [Lynn:] Ground, right then. [speaker001:] Doesn't it continue erm dribbling down the field now we've got the ball rolling, could I propose sports ground? [Lynn:] Right. [speaker001:] And I'll second that. [Lynn:] Now who who who's in favour of sports ground then, being the next word? right, and who's against that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lynn:] So we now have Centenary Sports Ground then. [speaker001:] but why is it necessary to, why isn't the Centenary Sports Ground and it's at Road. You know why is Brinkley so important? Brinkley is where it is. Is it Brinkley? [Lynn:] Do we have to? [speaker001:] go down the road it's got Brinkley up. You've got to have a correct address David. Centenary Sports Ground on the notice board, you know that it's Brinkley. [Lynn:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] you've got a road sign. [Peter:] Thank you gentlemen. Erm [Lynn:] Mr carry on. [speaker001:] voted on Centenary Sports Ground Yeah. Well the Centenary Sports Ground. [Lynn:] No, we don't need to vote on on it any more. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] Erm if you recall in our managements' erm in our discussions when I presented the last the last minutes of the er s the subcommittee which has purchased the ground, we agreed to erm co er co-work with two other two of the clubs sports clubs to establish a management committee, which we would then hope would take over management of the ground from the parish council. At the moment, Centenary Sports Ground is owned and managed entirely by the parish council, on the parish council rates and as you know it's been planted and it's coming up well. We need to move this into the next stage which is to get it managed for a sports field, sports ground properly. And the management committee will do that. The two clubs are I think are in the process of electing er members and have asked us to put forward two parish councillors to be their nominees. So we're looking for two additional representatives on this parish council to be our nominees on the management committee, and the management committee will present us with proposals to buy the ground in due course. [Lynn:] Could I erm nominate erm Roger. Would you like to [Roger:] I I'm happy to serve as long as it isn't you know, I mean I I can't give a lot of time because er my time's so committed. [Lynn:] Anybo anyone else who wants [speaker001:] How about you David? No I'm s no I'm sorry I couldn't er. [Madeleine:] David I'd like to propose, but as you proposed him. [speaker001:] I'm quite happy to do it. [Lynn:] Perhaps Alright do we do we need to vote on that? [speaker001:] Before you move on madam chairman may I make a suggestion general approval, presumably we will be erecting a notice board er at the ground er and I would think it would be appropriate having selected the name that we make er erm some statement on the notice board saying the facility was originally provided by Southwell Parish Council. Similar to erm the accreditation that is er up at, with the help they've had from er er interested er people there. I think that the parish council's involvement should be by by reference on the board. I think chairman within our within our original budgets erm we're still awaiting [clears throat] the provision of electricity and water to the site, but within the original budget and with the estimates and quotations we've had, there will be some money available for the erection of a small sign, so perhaps er I propose that we do that within the budget that we've already established for the purchase of the ground,wh which is within budget at the moment, so if there's any spare after the provision of electricity and water to the site, suggested. But I think that er this er Centenary Sports Ground gonna be large enough for the public to see and this and wants to be on a smaller metal er edition that's there for er ever and a day. Right. You see my point, it's it's not a like a M and S or railway sign one small sign you know at the bottom or wherever. Yes in an appropriate position this glorious name and just [LAUGHTER] I mean I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these formal you know want's to everything but the idea of this is that we go we get it off the ground and then the management committee take over and run it, it will hopefully have two parish representatives, won't be overcommitted by being you know constantly hectored and badgered by people saying this is your ground. Erm but I just thought that it is appropriate in the circumstances because we have basically provided this facility, that there should be erm [cough] on the part of the public that this was a facility provided by the parish council, it's not just a sports club facility as will develop over the years, which is what we intended, but it doesn't belong to those clubs, facility was originally provided by us. [Lynn:] Is that it then? [speaker001:] It is. Oh I'm sorry. I have one other, can I reserve one matter to the end of the meeting because I wish to make a proposal which er would be erm I think ought to be taken erm in closed session because of the nature and confidentiality of the business and personal interests, so perhaps I can propose the closure of the meeting to the press and public at the end of the meeting and defer the final item an item relating to this matter at that time. [Lynn:] [clears throat] Item eleven then,. I think all they want to do is kn is the existing one needs pulling down, am I right? And then they want to build a new one where the old one is at the moment. [speaker001:] Right. They've actually drawn a very detailed plan for it, shows us where the war memorial recreation ground [Madeleine:] Where it was. [speaker001:] and, yes where it is, er and it says, [reading] please find enclosed plan for mower store, present wooden hut is inadequate for our requirements []. Erm they're going to pay for everything, they're going to build it, they're going to submit planning application, they're gonna do everything. So all they're asking really as you're the landlords, do you have any objection to them building a new er mower store? How big is it? How big is it chairman in relation to the existing shed? Be the same size? It'll be slightly larger. When you say slightly larger will it be more visible or, I mean the present one is partially hidden in actual fact. The measurements are eight foot by nine foot. It's on the same site and everything, to be honest I've never measured the old one. Green felt covered concrete roof, red bricks to er local authority local authority [cough] erm doesn't given any more details than that, but it's red brick to local authority approval, so they're going to submit it to them for them to agree that it fits in. I think one of the problems is they had a break in and had quite a lot of gear stolen, and that's why they want a concrete roof, so they can't er get in through the roof. I can understand that. [Lynn:] it'll come up again at the planning meeting anyway? This is just asking us for permission for them to apply for planning permission. Right, we'll move on now to item twelve, Southwell Tennis Club, permission for floodlighting. I believe we've had a letter [speaker001:] [cough] [Lynn:] asking if we will contribute towards floodlighting, is that it? [speaker001:] What they're actually asking for is that whether we would be able to help them by arranging for a loan on their behalf, they would service the debt at this time, so I might suggest chairman that we revert it to the finance committee for [Lynn:] Yes can we put that to the finance committee. [speaker001:] As a matter of urgency I think chairman,be because if we're going to apply, we need to apply for the first of April [cough] credit approvals now get taken up so quickly because the government doesn't let much money borrow erm much money to be borrowed parish councils unfortunately so we need to do it fairly urgently if we're going to get it on the list, I think the list is already about ten parish councils long. [Lynn:] When is the next finance? [Christine:] We were hoping to erm organize, arrange one quite soon. [Lynn:] So this. Right, okay then. Erm, maintenance of rights of ways in Southwell, item thirteen. It's just a letter from the county council about footpaths, erm shall we [clears throat] [reading] This department has been running an experimental scheme called project. This project was set up by the county council and Countryside Commission to experiment with new approaches to path maintenance. Due to the pilot nature of the scheme it is only operating in a few selected areas initially, which is why your parish has not been contacted. This project has already demonstrated the positive benefits of working with both parish councils and the farming community. The work is due to finish in May nineteen ninety four and the results assessed. After this time the rights of way team have every intention of working more closely with parishes and farmers throughout the county [] Am I right in saying that people talk to us about this? I think it's do with us taking over the foot the footpaths isn't it? Can can you say more on that. [speaker001:] What will basically happen is we would organize the clearance of footpaths within Southwell boundary, and so they would give us an amount of money each year and then we would er take on, we would nominate which footpaths are to be cleared, we have got far more ideas than they have in Nottingham need attention. But they were quite happy to come along and discuss it with the parish council erm and. [Madeleine:] Am I right in saying Women's Institute, don't they go round and checking up on [cough] sorry erm footpaths? And what happens about re repairing of stiles and all that sort of business? [Lynn:] A at the moment what happens is individual people report back to the clerk, [Madeleine:] Mm. [Lynn:] the county council's responsible for footpaths. [Madeleine:] I know they refer to don't they? [Lynn:] ramblers [Madeleine:] Mm. [Lynn:] I think they're erm [Madeleine:] But house er erm what is that that's the footpath people isn't it, they always come and repair things if they're told, at least they sh, but obviously they have to work in collaboration with the farmers, er concerned. [Lynn:] controlled by the county council [Madeleine:] Mm. [Lynn:] erm and they've got the responsibility of all the footpaths in the area. I think what they're trying to say is if it was more localized it would be easier. [Madeleine:] Yes, but they've still got to keep in touch with the farmer concerned or farmers [Lynn:] Yes. [Madeleine:] they can't just say we're going to repair the footpath. [Lynn:] Then it will be the parish council instead of the county council. [Madeleine:] But you've still got to liaise with the farmer or something. [Lynn:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] But I would do it rather than [Madeleine:] Oh I see yes. Mm, mm. [speaker001:] a splendid initiative and it's similar to the way in which the district council is now devolving responsibility for public toilets, and I'm delighted that local government reorganization has been given a bit of stir that districts and county councils to get their acts together. I'd actually go a bit further and say yes we'd like to do this, can we also look after road maintenance as well, because the road maintenance is sent out to contractors, contractors are so busy, they can't actually do half this work, they've got a list as long as your arm, so pit pitfalls in in the pavements as well as as some of the motorways aren't being done because the contract's been placed, but they've placed it with the wrong people. We know where the problems are, we can actually solve those problems, and I think that's where parish council actually far closer in touch with the people, because we're on the ground and there are fifteen of us [cough] in the village and one of you know that's than than the county council which is over the river in house. But I think I'd actually like to support that idea, I think we ought to er er write back to them and say it's a splendid idea, erm let's have more of it and and thank you to the local government commission for s er seeing to this after a hundred years. [Lynn:] Don't we want write and in fact get him to come to the next meeting then yes? [speaker001:] Madam chairman, er just as it happens er I've [clears throat] I've been in conversation with Mr assistant [LAUGHTER] and ha and Southwell parish is a very big parish [cough] and I think I'm right is saying there are sixty seven footpaths in Southwell [cough] sorry More than that. and I don't want to, I don't want to get involved with a lot of money that we'd have to outlay for upkeep until we've gone into it thoroughly. [Lynn:] Mm. [speaker001:] Because at the moment, er I mean they spend a lot of money on various footpaths that I know of which are a tremendous er price so let's be a bit cautious you know, because er I don't want to be saddled with a a great bill just for footpaths. [Lynn:] I think you we can ask him all these questions then can't we. [Madeleine:] Will you let us know please when and maybe some of the footpath people, local footpath secretary or chairman [Lynn:] When when shall I get him to come to one our meetings. [Madeleine:] Yes perhaps you'll let let me know. [Lynn:] Alright, now there's one [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Lynn:] item on the agenda right at the end late edition, which is the byelaw on control of dogs, which I think is something we discussed years ago [speaker001:] [cough] [Lynn:] but I can hardly remember what we decided but it seems that we've now got to [speaker001:] [cough] [Lynn:] that we did agree that we would we would we would go along with so erm [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Lynn:] ninety two [speaker001:] Yeah the minutes of the meeting of the nineteenth of February nineteen ninety two, that's an awful long time ago erm, and it is proposed to bring into force byelaws for district and parish council-owned land upon or as soon as possible after the first of April nineteen ninety two. [cough] The byelaws as proposed would be for a dog ban at the toddlers' play area of the War Memorial Recreation Ground and for the Memorial Recreation Ground excluding the tennis courts and bowling green, the play area at gardens. It was agreed that the byelaws for dog ban at the toddlers play area be endorsed and clarification be sought for the possibility of dog ban in other areas, which is included in the document. There's there's quite a lot of information in on this proposal. [Lynn:] Right, so what what you're asking to do is to sign it and send it back? agreeing that we should and send it back? [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Madeleine:] Who's this letter from then? County council? [speaker001:] District. [Lynn:] Erm district. [Madeleine:] Because I mean they're being e I've lived here twenty three years, this comes up every three or four years this dog business. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Madeleine:] I mean I've written countless letters and nothing's been done. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I apologize for the urgency on this, but to get it through to the Department of the Environment it has to be lodged at the beginning of February and then up to then by by March. [Madeleine:] What are they going to do about it? [speaker001:] This this this is because the the Department of the Environment lost the paperwork for a year erm because apparently the Home Office are un incapable of reading documents unless they're in order, and they take them in order and it takes them a year to read them. And I I've got a letter from the Department of the Environment and the Home Office saying that, er and th and because of that it's taking them this long to actually get these byelaws effected. There's no apology or anything, they just that's the statement. I think Madeleine what enforceable by the district council law. that needed the consent of the is it the D O E or Yes Secretary of State. and that has been a long time coming but it now appears to be [Madeleine:] It's been twenty three years since I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Could I enquire madam chairman er is the same areas on that specific document the same one as we agreed in nineteen ninety two? [Lynn:] Mm I think so. [speaker001:] If they are fair enough. [Lynn:] Yes [speaker001:] Perhaps the clerk will check. [Lynn:] check through but I think it's exactly the same as what we agreed [speaker001:] Thank you. Just before you close the meeting hold on No well any way before we go onto that [Lynn:] Right. [speaker001:] can I just ask did the chairman respond to The clerk and chairman [Lynn:] Right, could I ask

[speaker001:] aware of Graham he might be more receptive. Who knows? [speaker002:] As a starting point we could write to er Graham, and invite him to visit [Tom:] Mm. [speaker002:] either facility. [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] [cough] [Tom:] The other thing that's been done, erm, and has been ongoing now for some months without too much success, but things seem to be moving a little bit, at least we're told they are, is that I I pressed for, not really a presentation but a technical meeting, I wanted to get there there product engineers [Adrian:] Yeah. [Tom:] around a table so that we could get to know, er, well, I could get to know the way they do things [Adrian:] Yes. [Tom:] er and to try and explain [Adrian:] Yes. [Tom:] erm how we could fit into that, make them more aware of, of, perhaps which bearings are the better, price ways which are the better bearings to go for [Adrian:] Mm. [Tom:] make them more aware ba basically about bearings and, and erm the popularity of certain sorts of bearings [Adrian:] Mm. [speaker002:] As you're aware, we've been trying to or organize this sort of open forum, engineering in the house in September [Adrian:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and we were informed last week that [David:] It may happen February. [Tom:] It may happen in February. [speaker002:] It's been dropping out. You, you've been there when we've had [Adrian:] [cough] [speaker002:] discussions with Jonathan. [Adrian:] Well I think, I think what you what you got to do, and it's between you two to continue to press that, and and chivvy Bill erm erm er and push and cajole, and it may mean that you need to erm over visit er [Tom:] Yes. [Adrian:] erm Clevedon, or wherever it is that these guys hang out. [Tom:] Most of them are at still at and there's a few applications [Adrian:] Are they? Well, erm [Tom:] at Clevedon but they don't seem to have much. [Adrian:] them then, and and just keep pressing, keep keep pushing away [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] erm [David:] I think it would also be appropriate at some point in the near future to visit the valve engineering in Dunstable er we've got the names of chief engineers. [Tom:] Yeah, we've got the [Adrian:] Yeah. [Tom:] There's this guy there called Les, now it was put to us when we were down there last time that erm, attending this meeting when it happens would be er one Nigel, who's, I don't quite, I can't remember what he's picked for, erm he's actually been promoted, he's pretty senior, he was basically in charge of the product engineering at, and he's now been promoted so that puts him even further up the ladder [Adrian:] Yes. [Tom:] and he's supposed to be obtaining initials with the [speaker002:] Should it ever takes place. [Tom:] if it ever takes place, and also Les who's the chief engineer effectively at Dunstable. [Adrian:] Ha have you, have you got a a, have you laid out an agenda, for f that meeting? [speaker002:] I haven't yet, no. [David:] We didn't want [Adrian:] Cos I think, what? [David:] We didn't want to be too specific at the moment. [Tom:] No, I [Adrian:] Er, it [Tom:] I really want to get, I er, I I want you to, I didn't really want to make it to four, I didn't want to get it too formalized because I think that sometimes gets in the way of real information. [Adrian:] Yes, but the trouble is they don't know what they're going to get out of it, you've got to [Tom:] No. [Adrian:] in order to get them, in order to get them to come, surely you've got to sell them the idea that they're going to get something useful out of it [David:] We've been doing this [Adrian:] and make it worth our while. [Tom:] Yeah. [David:] We've been doing this for sometime, it doesn't really seem to have taken too much effect, now at the moment we've been channelling everything through Julian and Jonathan. I don't know what the reasons why there's always been a month on month cancellation, maybe it's difficult to get people together there, maybe there not too enthusiastic. [speaker002:] Well, no they're not [Adrian:] Could, could we get, could we get Tony, could you write to this new chap Graham, and say, you know, congratulations on your new appointment [David:] I think as a starting point [Adrian:] er and and and nice to know that we want to establish contact and you may be aware that we've had this plan, and, and what we want it to achieve is so and so, and we'd like to set it up in this way. [speaker002:] We could do that, I think perhaps, at the moment it's ongoing, I think perhaps we ought to wait until, see what Julian and Jonathan come up with in February in perhaps. [David:] I think if it becomes clear that if it doesn't happen in February we're going to have to really reappraise the situation, [Adrian:] Mm. [David:] but in any event, I think you ought [Adrian:] Right, I'm, I'm prepared to bet a fiver that it won't happen in February, through Julian and Jonathan. [speaker002:] I'd be prepared to go along with that as well. [Adrian:] Do you take me on? [Tom:] No, I won't take you on [Adrian:] Right. [David:] I think it's a sure fire bet at getting a fiver, what I think we ought to do immediately [Adrian:] Exactly, so [David:] what I think we ought to do immediately, however, is to write to Graham, inviting him to, let's see [Tom:] him. Yes. [David:] if we can kick things off in that, er from that sphere. [speaker002:] That, that could be quite a good opportunity actually actually, couldn't it. [Adrian:] You've got an opportunity now because he's just been appointed to make contact with him, you don't need any other excuse to make contact with him [David:] No. [Adrian:] and sew the seeds that there has been procrastination going along, and we've got some very good ideas to offer his people, and we would like to er er and hope that he he will erm encourage his people to erm, get along and meet us. [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] On a technical basis sooner than later, and what you're trying to do is to understand the design and development process [Tom:] Alright. [Adrian:] and for them to understand erm the the er bearings selection issues. [speaker002:] Yeah, I think when it comes to bearing selection issues we ought to be clear in which direction we're going in, now, it's in our interests at the moment, as we're unable to produce a larger series of airings in the U K or in Europe, to steer them away from those sort of design, but it seems also to be fairly clear that demands for packaging and compact design for steering gear, tend to be favouring the mote, remote valve arrangement, therefore putting a considerable advantage [Tom:] Mm. [speaker002:] with. In trying to persuade to move away from arrangements which utilize those bearings we're effectively trying to do ourselves a favour, because we cannot provide those bearings, but we're not necessarily offering the optimum engineering solution, or maybe even the total cost solution in certain applications [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] Well [speaker002:] because of the actual costing input in implications in growing the gear to such an extent you can, to actually utilize [Tom:] Yes. [speaker002:] popular metric measurements. [Adrian:] But, but this is where you, where we've got to strike the appropriate balance between doing what is best for the customer and what is best for us. Now I would see as one of the erm powerful reasons for being in the leading position that if we are in the leading position, and we know that the right solution from a technical, and probably from an overall cost point of view is the sixteen double O three, or a six eight O seven, come to that, and we know it far enough ahead, [Tom:] But you see we can't [Adrian:] then we stand the possibility of being able to influence our own purchasing issues in order to er er to to make it happen. [speaker002:] You see, we can't really know, that erm, we can't really know what is the most cost effective solution, can we? We can only go by what they, overall costing effective solution, we can only go by what they tell us, I mean we we just have to believe what they tell us, don't we? We [Adrian:] Well this is, this is where, this is, I mean this is one of the issues that has to be brought out in any discussions concerning partnership. [speaker002:] Yeah. We've got to get more [Adrian:] If we don't have things like that on the table, and if we don't have, I mean there there are issues like, like, what are localization intentions? If the choice of bearing is between a sixteen double O four and a six double O four, it may hang, for us it may hang on whether, er, whether we can localize the sixteen double O four [speaker002:] Yep. [Adrian:] for them it may be that the sixteen double O four has a more expensive housing arrangement anyway, or under that purpose [speaker002:] Right, I see that's the [Adrian:] they may be cheaper, I don't know, but but that was one of the issues that's got to be taken into, into [speaker002:] That's the raw line, yeah. [Adrian:] consideration, but if we're not there having the conversation we won't even know that the conversations been l [speaker002:] No. [Adrian:] going on, so we won't be in a position to estimate and forecast for our own benefit [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] that the sixteen double O four is likely to be the item used in this new gear [speaker002:] Hmm. [Adrian:] and it's likely to be at half a million a year, and the production will start in nineteen [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] ninety six, and therefore we've got time to do it. [Tom:] yeah. [Adrian:] But if we don't get into that position in the first place we'll be out. [speaker002:] You are only looking at it from our point of view though aren't you, I mean they, they're going to look at it from the point of view that they can possibly obtain sixteen zero zero fours, although they'd obviously like to get them cheaper, but at a price that makes the the overall package that contains that bearing and a six eight O seven cheaper than than the package that we would like them to use which inc would incorporate six zero zero fours, and er whatever after. [David:] Whatever. [Adrian:] Abso absolutely John, [speaker002:] See [Adrian:] John, but you you miss my point [speaker002:] Just give me two [Adrian:] I'm sorry you, I haven't explained myself clearly. If we are not having that conversation at the initial design stage when the total project for production is certainly many months ahead if not years ahead. [speaker002:] Yeah, I didn't, I did understand what [Adrian:] Then [speaker002:] you were saying, yeah, but we've got to know, basically what they need to be paying [Adrian:] Well [speaker002:] for the sixteen zero zero four, aren't we? [Adrian:] But no, no, because we can make the assump, we can make the assumption that it that the that they could get it, if they don't get it from us they'll get it from whatever the prices. [speaker002:] You see at the moment [Adrian:] So we know that. [speaker002:] we're so far out that we're not anywhere near, you can't [Adrian:] Yeah, but we know where they're getting it from, so we know what, we know what it's costing them [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] that's not a problem. I don't, I can just see, just isn't a problem. [speaker002:] Well we have, we've act, we've actually ow ow opened the, we've started open again there, haven't we? We've gone in [Adrian:] Right. [speaker002:] We've talked to them at length [Adrian:] That, that game has got to be continued. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] And it's got to be continued not on the subject of existing gears, which is what it this last conversation is about [David:] Short [Adrian:] is got to, they've got to be talking about [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] next generation or next but one generations. Those are the ones that are really going to matter, it's too late to talk about an existing gear once it's in production, [David:] But I think what you see [Adrian:] the moment, the moment's gone. [speaker002:] The thing is [David:] The thing at the moment, the seeds have already been sown [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] in terms of the actual favourite [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] of being shown to the remote valve arrangement, and the fact that they already want to carry over R eight onto R three with minimal changes [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] whatever replaces R three and R three, and R three will have a product line for seven or eight years, we're talking about quite a long time away. In that period of time we'd have dropped from being the largest and preferred supplier to a minority supplier [speaker002:] Mm. [David:] therefore letting, opening the door wide open to, who are able at the moment on the current generation of platforms, and the next generation. [Adrian:] Get the figures, get the figures, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Adrian:] get the figures out of them, [speaker002:] See [Adrian:] get the figures,do I mean, we're talking generalities, if you're saying from what you know already the, the remote control gear is going to be sixteen double O four six eight O seven, and that is the best bearing arrangement that anybody could, anybody could produce, then, if that's the answer, then for goodness sake get the figures, stick 'em in a memo so we can go and hit Peter, and make it quite clear to them that over the next year they're going to lose half a million six double O ones, or whatever it is [Tom:] One [Adrian:] six two O twos, and we're not going to replace it with anything, and we have an opportunity if we go for it now that we could replace them with sixteen double O fours and the projections are [David:] Well that's it [Adrian:] right [David:] Yeah. [Adrian:] if, if, that is the situation that you are saying now, from what you know now, [Tom:] Yeah. [Adrian:] then don't let's beat about the bush any more, if that's what we know, and that is our strong belief that that's [Tom:] That [Adrian:] what's going to happen [Tom:] that is [Adrian:] let's, let's go specific on it, let's tell 'em, let's, let's tell the factory people that this is what it's going to be. [Tom:] That's what we wanted, I wanted to hear really. [speaker002:] Not as clear as that, it's not a ris, it's not that they're either going to lose the six double O one and half a million, it's the thing that's, admit that they might, and it weakens our position. One doesn't replace the other. Six double O ones in the gear, the six eight O seven and the one six double O fours in the valve, that basically that drives the gear if you like, in simple terms, and a David's point was that if we're allowing to further develop the valve business, and we're just standing still say, on the gear business, and ultimately they have a bigger supplier, and ultimately put either gear business under more and more pressure, yeah? [Adrian:] Yep. [speaker002:] And the likelihood is that in the fullness of time they'll be the preferred supplier, and they'll be also supplying the gear bearing. It's a go to [speaker001:] Can I just [speaker002:] Peter and say that if you don't do this you're going to lose that, because that wouldn't be being [Adrian:] So [speaker002:] honest with them. [Adrian:] so [speaker002:] we have gone to them and said look it's six eight or seven [David:] But it ca, it's a duel, it's [speaker002:] and look at what's [David:] duel pronged attack isn't it? You've got the situation where you've got remote gears, and you've got a situation where you, sorry, remote valves, and you've got a situation when you've got standard valves and also a small [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] amount of manual gears, now what we're doing at the mo [Adrian:] Hang on to David [Tom:] But who's to say that they don't redesign the standard valve? [David:] No they don't get any standard valves, but what I'm saying is if there's a clear indication that the trend is away in future direc generations from standard valves to remote valves. [speaker002:] I can believe it is. [Tom:] I believe it is. [David:] Also, not only does it expose, er, our weakness on the fact that we can't supply the bearings for remote valves, it also opens the door to whatever standard valve business will continue in the future. [speaker002:] Two. [Tom:] Right. [David:] We, we, it's fairly clear that the manual gears is virtually, within five or six years it's going to be very, very, very small. [Tom:] Yeah, and that used to be our strength before, er that's the sphere of operations done before the there was more, if you like,, technology, shall we say, associated with varying sort of manual valves than what there is power valves, in other words power valves offers it up to people like, or [speaker002:] Yeah, there's no know how required really is there? I mean it's just bog standard bearings now. [Adrian:] I'm sorry, I I've obviously misunderstood something, because I was under the impression that in this er er steering gear there is only the sixteen double O four and the six eight O seven. [speaker002:] There is. [David:] valve, there's a valve [Adrian:] But what you're saying to me is that there are six double O ones and [Tom:] There's [Adrian:] six two O twos in [Tom:] There's [Adrian:] that as well? [Tom:] There's six, er, the six, hang on, the sixteen zero zero four supports the pinion at the top, above the pinion, and there's a needle roller bearing below it, erm [David:] There are no other D group nor bearings [Tom:] No, I know. [David:] in the gear. [Tom:] It's six eight O seven. [speaker002:] No, no, no. [David:] You, you're right, what I [Tom:] It's six eight O seven. [David:] I, I, dropped somebody up a little bit, so there's the one six double O four and the six eight O seven. That's. [Tom:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [David:] And that's the valve, we, we, call it valve business basic, it's done at Dunstable, it's not the same as the sort of resolving style er gears, even though it has got a gear to produce a and it joins it later on, so there's the other ball bearings business for the gears, yeah? The conventional style, gears, whether they've been power or or manual, as develops erm more of the sort of business on those type applications, yeah, then basically it increases overall share and then it puts pressure on the business that we've got on the other D group ball bearings. [Adrian:] Right, okay, [David:] Cos we're not even saying that [Adrian:] look, look, I, I, I've got to go because I've got another meeting to go to this evening, erm, what, what I, er what we need to do is to get this laid out clearly as to what our projections ar are [Tom:] That's what we've got [Adrian:] we've got the technical input, we've got a technical understanding of what's going on, let's have a paper on it, and put out some figures, and put out some projections as to what we believe, pooling the knowledge that you guys have got, let's put it together and lay out where we think it's going to go [Tom:] Yeah. [Adrian:] and I mean, it doesn't really matter whether I've understood it correctly or not, because clearly there, there is an issue, [Tom:] To start with [Adrian:] there is an issue and clearly if we are not in the sixteen double O four six eight O seven business we are going to lose share, we may not lose total volume, I am confused about that, but don't try and sort it out now, but those are the issues that need to be tackled, and you need to produce between you some sort of projection paper which lays out the way that you see this bit of the steering business going in the future, and recommends what we should be doing, and what the volumes are to support that, and what the volumes are likely to be. [Tom:] That's exactly why I [Adrian:] To support that. Okay? [Tom:] wanted this meeting to take place, I want to find out what the design philosophy is, long-term future-wise, and also, I want to get into their detailed design, so to try and establish how they determine the size of sh even simple things like pinion carved diameter, which dictates [Adrian:] Yeah. [Tom:] basically the ball [speaker002:] The ball. [Tom:] you know, you start from there, how they do that, can can we get in perhaps something a little down there [Adrian:] Right. Okay. [Tom:] that sort [Adrian:] Look [Tom:] of stuff. [Adrian:] what, what you need to do, and the sooner you do it the better, the sooner you can get the information the better, is to set out those sort of philosophical issues [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] those long-term projection type issues as to what is the general vision, direction that they're going in, and therefore what should we as a group be recommending to our manufacturing colleagues that they should be manufacturing. [David:] If we conclude that it becomes clear that the trend, long-term, is away from the conventional type of power steering, with a valve mounted er in line with the input car [Adrian:] That, that's coming, [David:] away from that. [Adrian:] Okay, if that's what you want to recommend, recommend it. I [David:] We don't have to get onto thin section, to larger section bearings. [Adrian:] Okay, okay, you're making that assumption you're making, drawing that [David:] I know I'm making assumptions. [Adrian:] conclusion. [Tom:] But weren't you getting fixed up [Adrian:] That's [David:] something business. [Tom:] We can [Adrian:] That's why you're going to write the paper on it. [Tom:] We can make that recommendation Adrian if that's what we're going to [Adrian:] Right. [Tom:] sort of make a recommendation [Adrian:] Yeah, yeah. [Tom:] in writing, yeah, if we think that's the way it's going to go, so we've got to get in there and find out. [speaker002:] So I would agree with what Tom said on the sort of, things, yeah, you know, knock that together, we've got that on one piece of paper already that's about two years out of date, well, was up to date two years ago, which I could probably dig out for you, and then erm we've got, we can even do it from a European sort of view point, which just has a few things there that need taking up. But j just before you go, Tom, the issue on whether or not Peter or or it lets the thinner section deep groove ball bearings, isn't going to rest on. [Tom:] No. [speaker002:] One six zero zero four are not even anything you want to rest on, fundamental problems are each treatment, the processes, and erm distortion of thin rings, which as them er, er, er, an issue when it goes to face grinding, in as much as because of the distortion you get all those lever locks stuck on, and you got to do about twenty passes on t'face grinder rather than two, and that means that we've got an equipment out of balance in the factory, because er, it's got, you know, so there's quite a lot of investment [David:] Right. [speaker002:] and what we've got to do is er er as I said to Ed a little while ago, I mentioned a little while ago, we need to gather the other thin section [Adrian:] Ha. [speaker002:] bearing demand together. [David:] In other words [Adrian:] That is, that is something, [Tom:] We need to research the market. [Adrian:] that is, that is what, that is what exists to do, or one of the things that exists to do as the U K sales company our business is to give the projections for a particular piece of business, and if we see any other similar bits of business around it that's fine, that's, that needs to be added to it, but to give our vision of that particular piece of business, feed that into the marketing people in, and say, look, this is the situation if we go this way, this is what we think is going to happen, if we do this, this is going to happen, if we don't do this, this is what's going to happen, so that that can be fed into an overall picture, and they will come back, I presume, and say, right, we now have enough information to know that it's going to be worth vesting, investing in production of sixteen double O fours in er Peter. Or we can put this together with the American bid, and we'll produce them in in the States, or whatever, whatever the outcome is, I would have don't let's, don't let's try and assume the, all we're, all we're trying to do is to gather together the bit that we can put into the pot, and to present it in a logical fashion, to say, if this, then we belief that, and if that, then we believe the other, [Tom:] 's [Adrian:] Right, and this is this little bit of it, now, made them come back to us and say, well but yes, that's not enough on its own, or that's too much on its own, or whatever, or there is no hope, you may as well forget about this because we've already done the study, or somebody in Japan's already written off, whatever, but from this point in time, let us, as the sales company, get the information together as it relates to. [David:] In conclusion then, let let's do the background work [speaker002:] Yeah. [David:] do the research, and we'll put together a paper stating clearly where the fundamental trends are going to go. [speaker002:] Right, yeah. [Adrian:] And let's aim to have that by the end of February. [David:] Right. [Adrian:] Yeah? Is that reasonable? [David:] Yes. [speaker002:] You can go now. [David:] Have you checked with erm, oh I can check if you want, with er, you see the problem is they don't visit don't really know what's going on, it's basically [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] all [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] over there, but somebody can perhaps [Adrian:] Okay. [David:] what the situation is, if you go in. [Adrian:] Erm, David, that really er is about er four point four, the parallel activity necessary sister companies er to erm make sure that the same message is getting across, and that whatever they are saying to the continental is actually supporting our attempts to er erm become the preferred supplier. [Tom:] What we've got to do is, or I've got to do is to get our sister companies to visit the buggers. [Adrian:] Right. [Tom:] It just erm [Adrian:] Well, okay, now it it may be that one of the things that that relates to again is the meeting that we talked about, erm and the need to get them around the table and begin to talk about those sort of things. [David:] Show a bit of esprit de corps [Adrian:] Yeah. [David:] and I think, if if we have to do we've got a, a, we've got a sign that er aren't going to do the sort of er so they contact technically with in Germany, then if we have to do we will. [Tom:] Right, yeah. [speaker002:] And er yes, they only take that. [Tom:] Mm. [David:] If, if that, if that happens, but clearly [speaker002:] Yeah the firework systems supposed to be the centre of the Red Vase designs, we're putting ourselves in a considerable disadvantage in not visiting and influencing these Red Vase Designs. [Adrian:] Yes, yes, if, if, if won't go to them, then you'll have to learn German and get over there John. [speaker002:] Jahwohl. [LAUGHTER] Maria. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] And how mu [Adrian:] Can you, can you find that out, David? [David:] Not in [Adrian:] From, what the situation is? [Tom:] That sounds alright to me. [David:] They'd say it was a business proposal. [Adrian:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Not. [David:] How do I get the honest answer and that is another matter, I, I, I'll find out what they say, but er I suspect that they will erm not be doing an awful lot, I suspect they'll pretend, er that they will erm be helpful, and then they won't do an awful lot, [Adrian:] Er [David:] Because I ain't got no belief. [Adrian:] Right. [David:] I'll just have to keep an an [Adrian:] Okay. [David:] eye on them, somehow. Well, anything that you can do there, erm in in the immediate future would obviously be helpful, to support our case for being considered as the er the er European supplier, erm, and likewise with Italy, Spain, and France, not withstanding that at the moment they don't do a great deal of business, well Spain does a great deal of business, but I don't suppose is in a position to do much in in the way of technical support, erm, right, [Tom:] Well, it's a perfectly good [speaker002:] Okay. [Tom:] it doesn't matter others er there's also some situations in the States, until that operation in June becomes er self sufficient, there's a lot of design work goes with the States, those V W and gears. [Adrian:] Well I [speaker002:] high in the States. [Adrian:] It may [Tom:] Mm. [Adrian:] be, it may be that we need to get over to the States, to, to, erm pick up the technical vibes from there, but is the state, er our people in the States aren't in with. [Tom:] No. [speaker002:] No. are preferred supplier, for basically we got a hundred percent of the business in the States. [Adrian:] Er [speaker002:] And er [Adrian:] right, that is something else to pursue in your technical contacts here, as to how much influence the States side has on the gears, the bearing design, the di, the the gear design in Europe. [Tom:] You get the impression not a lot don't you? [David:] I get the impression not a lot. [Adrian:] So that we can go and put our effort in the right places, I'm awfully sorry to be erm having to push off er in a hurry, but, you know it's partly my fault for having delayed the start, er but I've got to be back [Tom:] Thanks for attending anyway. [Adrian:] by half past seven, and I'm already not going to make it. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Getting on with what you should be doing that can only see a few people doing that who are actually getting on with what they should have been doing while you are waiting. Now you know that this lesson's particularly difficult for me to be here on time. I come from one room to a from a long er way a way to another room. So I expect you to have the things out and. Right let's get straight on [speaking french] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] See if you can answer my question. [speaking french] Phillip. [Phillip:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] So what did my question mean? What was I asking you Kieran? [Kieran:] What day is it is it today. [Mrs J Long:] What day is it today. Good. And the answer is it's Wednesday. [speaking french] What do you think my question means first of all, Richard? [Richard:] What date is it today. [Mrs J Long:] Good boy, well done you remembered that very well. What date is it today? Now we've only done this one or two times. Let me help you. We start off with the same two words every time. Can anybody remember what those two words are? What do we begin with? Kieran. [Kieran:] The number what it is today. [Mrs J Long:] Well we start we start we do put the number in but we start off with [speaking french]. Now we have the number and today is the twelfth so we've got to think of number twelve. Christopher. [Christopher:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] And now we simply have to think of the name of the French month. Louise just put your pen down and join with this please. Katrina. [Katrina:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Look at the board please I want all eyes on the board. [speaking french] Let's try another date. Who'd like to tell me when their birthday is? When's your birthday Jo Josephine? [Josephone:] July. [Mrs J Long:] Oh yeah, what's the date?... Well just tell me in English first of all and then [Josephone:] July. [Mrs J Long:] we'll work it out. What July though? Fifteenth the second the third. [Josephone:] Fifth. [Mrs J Long:] The fifth. All right so which two words are we going to start with? [speaking french] Now all you have to do is think of number five for me, cos you just say the number. [speaking french] And what's July in French? [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] All right now before we do any more dates put your hands down and we'll have a few more birthday dates in a bit. But I need to practice with you counting up to thirty one. Why do I need to practice that with you counting numbers up to thirty one? Christopher? [Christopher:] So you can tell date properly. [Mrs J Long:] That's right. Because some months have got thirty one days in other months have got thirty days in and one month has only got twenty eight days in and twenty nine in a leap year. Let's see who remembers this little rhyme, it's not a French rhyme but it is a rhyme that you may have heard before. Thirty days hath September April June and November all the rest have thirty one except for February alone which has twenty eight days clear and twenty nine in each leap year. So these are the months that only have thirty days, September April June and November. Those are days months with thirty days. So all the other months have thirty one. So put your hands up, how many days has January, this month? [speaking french] Thirty one. Now children am I right in thinking that when Mrs came in and took some lessons with you when I was on a course that she taught you how to count up to thirty? [speaker001:] No. [Mrs J Long:] You haven't been you haven't done that with Mrs. Right well that's something we need to do now. So we need to practice our numbers from twenty up to thirty one. So let's start and let's count aloud up to twenty to start with shall we? [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Well I'm going to put twenty there where we've put the tens and I'm going to start shh [speaking french]. Twenty one it's easy to remember. Put your hand up if you can tell me number one in French. Easy-peasy. Well twenty one French people say [speaking french] Twenty and one twenty and one. [speaking french] Now twenty two is [speaking french] So they don't say twenty and two it's only on the ones like twenty one thirty one forty one that you say twenty and one thirty and one. For the rest it's just like English numbers they say [speaking french] So hands up who can work out what twenty three will be. Hands up don't call out please. Richard. [Richard:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Who'd like to tell me what twenty four will be? Stacey. [Stacey:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Good girl. Who can tell me what twenty five will be? Lee. [Lee:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] All right. I think more people are getting the idea of this now. Who'd like to tell me what twenty six will be, remember you're saying [speaking french] and then the num next number? Jody. [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Come on nearly everybody ought to be able to work this one out now. Eleanor. [speaking french] [speaking french] That's lovely. Can you all tell me together what twenty eight will be? [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] So twenty nine will be? [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] You've got it well done that's lovely. Now thirty is a new number. Thirty is [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] [clears throat] Excuse me. So, can anybody work out what thirty one will be. Remember that [speaking french] is twenty and twenty one is [speaking french] is thirty so what will thirty one be, Steven? [Phillip:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Good boy. [speaking french] Who can put their hand up and tell me the next number? Who can tell me thirty two? Gemma? [Kieran:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Who can tell me the next number. I'm looking for somebody who hasn't had their hand up this lesson, Jennifer? [speaker001:] I'll do it. [Mrs J Long:] Well let's see if you can do this one then. [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Right if you can do it join in, put your hand up. Who can tell me what thirty four will be, Adam? [Richard:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Who'd like to tell me what thirty five will be? Donna can you do this one for me? [speaking french] What's the number five?... Have you forgotten that one. You help her with Katrina. [Katrina:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] No that's [speaking french] Who'd like to tell me thirty six? Christopher. [Christopher:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Phillip? [Phillip:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Right. You can all do this next one together. [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Now I have gone beyond thirty one because I just wanted to show you the way it goes and it's easy. There obviously aren't more than thirty one days in a month [clears throat] but we'll just practice then counting from twenty now and we'll stop at thirty nine [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] All right now that we can do numbers up to thirty one, let's see if we can do a few more dates. Turn your chairs round so you're looking at this board. [speaking french]... Hands up if you remember what two words we're going to begin our answer with. Kendal would you like to bring your chair over. Rachael can you see the board from where you're sitting. If you can't bring your chair over. Kendal just bring your chair over. Come round and see the board. What are the two words please Louise?... Well look at this board look at my first two I've done here as an example. [Christopher:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Okay, now let's have somebody else's birthday. Katrina? [Katrina:] Twenty eighth of December. [Mrs J Long:] Right let's see if we can work this out together. She said it's the twenty eighth and the month is December. So we think of number twenty eight first of all. Stacey? [Stacey:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] And the month was December. Who'd like to tell me that? Steven. [Phillip:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Listen then repeat. Jennifer I don't want to see the back your head any more. I know you're doing your French work sheet but turn round and put that down now. It's time to do this work. [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Much better. [speaking french] Who'd like to, Kieran tell me your birthday. [Kieran:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Well done Kieran he had already worked his out good boy. Can anybody else do that? Can anybody else think of their birthday in French? Jody. [speaking french]... Well let's help Jody then. Twenty ninth of December. Right what's twenty nine children? Hands up if you know twenty nine. Michael? [Katrina:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Good boy. [speaking french] And it's the same month as that again. [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Who's birthday was this. Was that yours Kieran? That's not far off now is it? It will be your birthday very soon. Jennifer? [speaking french] [Josephone:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Ah is it the first of the month? Right, well good. I'm glad there's somebody's come up with that one because that's the only time that you say something a little bit different from the number itself. When it is the first day, put your hands down while we're ex while I'm explaining this, when you say when it's the first day of any month whether it's the first of February or the first of April or the first of December, instead of say [speaking french] you say this word you say [speaking french] for the first of the month [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] And when you write it as a number it's the only time that you ever put any little letters next to it. The rest of the time you just put the normal number. But for the first of the month you have these two letters E R. All right against the number one. What does that word remind you of? Does it remind you of... excuse me, does it remind you of a word in English at all? Michael. [Katrina:] Premiere. [Mrs J Long:] Yes it's like premiere isn't it like in football the Premiere League which is the first the top league. Or if somebody has a premiere it means it's the first time that they do something. Because it's a word that we've borrowed from the french word. We've taken it from their language and we use it in ours now meaning first. Richard? [speaking french] [Richard:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Put your hands up, tell me what date Richard's birthday is. What date is Richard's birthday? Phillip. [Phillip:] Twenty ninth of July. [Mrs J Long:] The twenty ninth of July good. Now I hope you're paying attention because later, next lesson I'm going to give you a little test on these dates a little listening quiz and if you get full marks on that then you get a house point for it. So I do hope that you are taking notice and learning how to do your dates. Louise. [Christopher:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Right what date is Louise's birthday please. What date is Louise's birthday? Come on I'd like to see a few more hands up here. That's not a hard one. [speaking french] Michael? Not quite sure? Lee. [Lee:] Eleventh of August. [Mrs J Long:] The eleventh of August. You can do the next one all right. Do you want to tell me your birthday? [speaking french]... Do you want to tell me in English then we'll help you. Twenty seventh of September. Come on who can help Stacey. Twenty seven, think of your numbers. Twenty seven. Christopher. [Christopher:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] September? You can tell me September can't you? [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] [speaking french] Now I'm not going to do any more now because I want to play a birthday game with you now okay? So can you move your chairs so that you can stand up quickly. I think because you've been very good today we'll play a numbers game as well if we've got time. Right. What's up Christopher? [Christopher:] didn't carry on that game that we were playing before. [Mrs J Long:] Did we not finish that one? [Christopher:] No [Mrs J Long:] Was it a game where you had numbers and you had to stand up and say your number? Oh I'm sorry there are children shouting out and you know that you don't do that. If you want to ask me something or tell me about something you put your hand up and wait for me to ask you. Phillip? [Phillip:] We finished it [Mrs J Long:] I'm sure we did of course but there's no reason why if we get on that we shouldn't start another one okay. Here we go then. You remember what to do don't you? Ready. [speaking french] I'm going faster now are you ready? [speaking french] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mrs J Long:] What happened, did we knock the fork off? [speaker001:] The arm worked off and it fell down. [Mrs J Long:] All right okay. Now then will you go back to your own proper seats now and I'm going to give you a number. You have to remember your number. That's a very good idea. Tell you what we'll do that next time because I want to practice some numbers now. Now then can you go back and sit over at your table? Right. Now then the faster that we can do this the faster we get on with the game, so you sit quietly please. Oh one or two people don't seem to understand quietly. [speaking french] I want to count how many there are today here today. [speaking french] Count with me. [speaker001:] [speaking french] [Mrs J Long:] Well that's an odd number so that means there will be ten in one team and eleven in another team and the ten team someone will have to go twice. So remember your number please and unless I tell you to move stay where you're sitting. [speaking french] Right good. Now Jennifer if you'll just move your chair over to this side. [speaking french] Who's the best one at numbers in this, I think Kieran. Right so will you be [speaking french] as well, so you're [speaking french]. Now you know the game so I don't need to spend a lot time. When I call out your num oh dear, [speaking french] thank you. When I call out your number you jump up and you say, if you are [speaking french] and I say [speaking french] you say [speaking french]. If I say [speaking french]. Let's just make sure you all know your numbers so [speaking french]. Joe just put your hand up now just put your hand up I'm just seeing that you remember your number. [speaking french] you're number one aren't you? No just put your hand up remember what I say. [speaking french] Is it you Donna? [speaking french] That's right now. This side of the room [speaking french]. Come on be ready. [speaking french] Well he if he was the right one, it was not [speaking french] it was [speaking french] okay. So you were first anyway so that's this one. Shh. [speaking french] Yes Eleanor stood up but Lee said it first okay. Come on A team let's see you really going for it. [speaking french] [bell sounding.] [speaker001:] Oh. [Mrs J Long:] Well, let's just do let's just do two more and see if the As can can catch up and then we'll carry it on I haven't finished yet, we'll carry the game on and remember the score. [speaking french]... [speaking french] Both together both together so the scores are so far [speaking french] close. [speaking french] I am waiting and it is not a time for you to be chatting. You should be putting your French folders away now please. Standing without talking behind your table. I am still waiting. [speaking french] [speaker001:] [speaking french] [end of recording]

[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] I shall raise that. [Anita:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] He says. [Richard:] Big problem. [Anita:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Look at me like that for Anita. [Anita:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Nothing else that needs to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Could I go back to three environmental group, please David, er I've had er quite good news, Ford have agreed to er three diesel cars in their fleet for us to try. [David:] Oh, right. [speaker006:] But they're going to be the smaller version, they're going to be Escorts and Fiestas, I think people need encouraging to use them, cos [David:] Well [speaker006:] they'll extend their fleet if we do give a demand. [David:] Alright, we don't, people don't specify do they what car they want,don don't you just provide it? [speaker006:] Usually they they they specify, people like our Roller. [David:] Do they, oh? [speaker006:] Yes, and they tend to be larger cars. [David:] Well it stops the top from specifying. [Richard:] Yes. [Anita:] Yes. [Richard:] Get the diesels to tow it. [speaker006:] Right. [David:] We've certainly had Escorts before, er [Richard:] Oh yes, yes, quite frequently. [David:] Anything else? Alright. Oh perhaps I should just report briefly that erm the erm changing over of erm erm some stage twos from my sub team to other sub teams became a necessary when Fiona returned very shortly afterwards. So grateful thanks to those people for all offering. [Anita:] Steve, one thing that there was mention to that and I've got a some pass it on just for people to [David:] Erm [Anita:] or leave it [David:] a bit I think. Er typing then, which seems to be generally satisfactory, although a bit of a hole in upon sub team one, it was a [Anita:] I think that was probably just one er one car load where there was a reporter in it, which is unclear at the moment. [Graham:] [whispering] Come on John,. [] [David:] Oh I see, it's just one file is it? [Anita:] Mhm, yes. [David:] For the twenty ninth, oh good. Erm, right that gets us to the er performance analysis, and er graphs. I was looking at er the first page the which brings together the sub team figures, erm, looks to me as though the completed work reflects the priority that we're giving to stage two work, and I think we continue to weeding, particularly, remain anxious to clear out of the system as soon as possible all old stage two files, and I propose to continue to revue progress on those and with each A D as I see them. Erm, do you want to say anything about, anyone else want to say anything about page one? [Rob:] Alright. [David:] The second page which is Rob's sub team. [Rob:] A fairly striking increase in June. [Anita:] I notice. [Rob:] Erm, which has certainly been noticeable, is likely to cause a few problems, because in August are off, and so on. However, there's nothing we can do about that. It seems to have hit us more than anyone else for some reason. [David:] Marlene doesn't think so, I am an. Richard, do you want to say anything about yours? [Richard:] Erm, I was going to mention, as Rob has done the increase in new complaints, which I think is somewhat welcome erm, we're still taking a long time from the averages over the last twelve months, I think that's just reflecting being out some days over the ones you've been talking about, er, we're down on actual stage one equipments in the month erm, we're not quite sure why that is, mm it's just the way things have panned out. [Anita:] [whispering] [] [Richard:] No, no member of stage two's gone out in the last month. [Anita:] [whispering] Forty nine. [] [David:] Right. Chris's were average stage one time seems to be creeping up. [Graham:] That has something to do with erm Jill's doesn't it? [David:] Well not really, because the the erm the that due'll be nineteen weeks doesn't include er the [Graham:] No, that they [David:] Leeds Post Office one, because they [Graham:] They're all December. [David:] before hand. That the significance about that Leeds thing is that there's a, I don't know how many complaints there are in that multiple altogether. A hundred and fifty? [Graham:] A hundred and thirty five. [David:] A hundred and thirty five, erm, all of which did take [Graham:] Twenty eight weeks, I think it was. [David:] Yes, so that until they drop out of the system erm, erm, a year from when that stage one decision was making, the teams over the sub teams overall stage one times are likely to be erm considerably higher than they will be in the month immediately after that er multiple has dropped out. Er, but I I think actually that the nineteen weeks er in June re is largely caused of er some clearing out of cupboards on the part of Jill, prior to her maternity leave. Er, Marlene, er do you want to say anything about your? [Marlene:] The, I mean it's only anecdotal, but it feels to me as though the the increase they experienced in June has continued into er July, I know that's not what we're looking at but it it feels that way, erm [Anita:] Thing was we had an awful lot of complaints last July, so it may not show an increase overall. [David:] Also the the June figure may reflect a erm er a catching up on May. I mean, May seems to have been a light month, [Anita:] Yes. [David:] although I guess it probably always is, and er [Rob:] Did you check the seasonality with Chris? [Graham:] Erm, that's come into the graph later on, [Rob:] Mm. [Graham:] But,basical erm June and July, er erm and August are always fairly busy. [Richard:] Before we leave erm seventeen fours erm sheet, the there was a question I'd have, I think it's probably addressed to Graham rather than anything, nothing personal about this, [LAUGHTER] er, the actual state of equivalent in the month, the third figure down in the last box [Graham:] Yep. [speaker006:] erm, why is it so much higher than the similar figure, the same figure for, my sub team, when I had the same number of stage one decisions and one more stage two decision? [Graham:] That same mistake, erm I [speaker006:] I did it in a hundred and twenty three, the actual stage one equivalent in the month if [Graham:] It's ninety, that should be ninety one, [David:] Torched in ninety one? [Graham:] One seven six should be ninety one. [David:] No it shouldn't should be a hundred and twenty three. [Richard:] No it's [Graham:] Seventy sixty three. [David:] Twelve times four, for [Graham:] Sorry, twelve times f [Richard:] Four twelves are forty forty eight, for nineteen seventeen five. [Graham:] Forty eight into somethings.. [David:] I i is that a mistake which i did I get them [Richard:] Doesn't work anywhere else does it? [Rob:] Is that reflected in the [Graham:] I haven't checked anything. [Rob:] cumulative figure then? [Graham:] Erm, I doubt it, as that figure is, erm based upon the figures from the erm [David:] Yeah. [Graham:] from the main sheet. It's, it's not a, it's, I don't add the sheets up together to get to the er top sheet. [David:] No, right. Okay, that's fine.... Yes. Doesn't effect the the front figure. [Graham:] No. [Richard:] No. [David:] Oh, well, sorry about that er Marlene. [Marlene:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Yes, my apologies for raising it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] It's been nice knowing you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Alright, if we look at the, look at the graphs on forecasting complaints, erm, said it's to my mind it's interesting, being about how the the choice of scale is going to affect one's perception here. [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] Yes. [David:] If you think about, it's very difficult for looking at graph one than er than er looking at the more settled line on graph two, which is actually the same thing if you abide by that [Rob:] Yes, it is, yes. [Richard:] Yes that's right. [Graham:] It is. [David:] Er [Rob:] You could do it even better if you want with a straight line, if it's stretch the scales to infinity. [David:] Erm, so there's a there's a slight up turn erm in June by comparison with June last year. Erm, but because last July was very heavy, er, you're expecting Graham that erm w we might well be showing a down turn again next month and that's what [Graham:] I think we [David:] the last graph [Graham:] That's what [David:] erm does is is project us on, erm, [Graham:] Er erm July, er June is erm, according to Chris's seasonality figures, normally about erm twelve percent higher than the mean, erm so if they'll take the mean at about, at being about three hundred and fifty, you know we're looking at a figure of somewhere just over four hundred for July, as opposed to last July which was erm I think five er four hundred and ninety four complaints in the month, so it's very unlikely that that output figure will continue going up next month. [Richard:] Yo your figures after Ju, July over to December in the third graph are all, to put it politely, guesses. [Graham:] They are, they're guesses, they're using the current mean of three hundred and fifty one, erm, and then tilting that according to the seasonality er that's shown over the last five years. [Richard:] Right. [David:] That I think gets us to the erm paper which I put down this morning, erm based upon erm primarily based upon that last erm graph,an and Graham's best estimate of our likely out turn for this year, because they erm, in fact you're, erm you're reckoning that the erm, the number of complaints we receive by the thirty first of March next year, it'll be four two fo four two, is your best seasonally adjusted guess. [Graham:] And, er erm, based on three months and that's been a g could be wildly out, but at the moment it seems to be. [Richard:] Mhm. [David:] Which would be slightly down on er the number that we got in last year, erm, the next factor, erm, is not as yet a fact but is almost a certainty, that, er, all, we will not succeed on the present basis in persuading D O E that we should have any increase in t to reflect er er an increase in work, and next year we're anticipating getting in effect a stand still budget. Erm, although I think we will say that that would be dangerous thing to do and that we should continue to work upon the er the assumption that there erm er overall as a n, a nine percent increase, but, that seems highly unlikely that will succeed, erm What I've then done is take account of the various staffing changes that there have been during the year, both short term and long term, erm, and you'll see that produces a figure actually available to us this year of twenty seven thousand five hundred and eighty eight investigative hours, erm which is slightly less than we had last year, er but erm almost not significantly so, erm and it seemed to me therefore that if we weren't trying to reduce times, er, if we were saying that we would turn in times at the end of this year which were the same as the term times we turned in at the end of last year we could probably achieve that without any further recruitment. But of course we are trying to er, to reduce times. Erm, now I can produce some variants on the next few figures, they, this is the one in the third paragraph which says that two thousand eight hundred, er took two eight nine one two, er, hours would be needed this year, that is working on the commissions erm current estimate of six percent of complaints going to stage two, erm, the reality in York is that seven point five percent are going to stage two, and if one took account of that reality, and I'm bound to say that in in estimating terms we don't, but if one did take in reality that would push that figure for this year up to thirty thousand four hundred and forty nine. Erm, now bearing in mind that half the year has gone, or will have gone by the time anybody arrived here, erm it seemed to me that where I, my analysis of that situation was that if we were going to achieve our target times, erm, then the theory would seem to be that we ought to make, er, two appointments now, I E two appointments for half the year will be equivalent to one appointment for the year, and that will produce the number of investigative hours which roughly that the formula says we need to knock off the required number of complaints in the required number of times. But then you come to the problem, erm, because for ninety four five, erm, the formula suggests that we would need less staff, that might seem a bit odd but the, the reason is that if you do indeed bring your target times down, then the amount of work which your passing over into the next year is er considerably less, erm than the amount of work which you passed over into this year, [Richard:] Mm. [David:] the formula assumes that at any er as as of the first of April, half the work has been done on all erm files then outstanding, we've gone into this before, where er we think that that's er er a correct statistical way of erm dealing with things, if therefore you cut the number of er files which are going in, then erm, er I take it if you're cutting the number of stage two files which are being passed over, and that's the area where you're most fighting at er at time we hope, and it has a very, very considerable impact on workload for next year. And so you'll see that working on the commissions six percent estimate, er we only need, according to this, erm just under twenty five thousand hours. If you work on a seven point five figure, then you get up to twenty seven thousand four hundred and twenty seven hours, erm, before next year, erm,... That would leave us with a difficulty I think, because if I were, if we went ahead with the idea of recruiting two people now er we would need to get rid of four of them by, oh four people all together, erm, by er the next financial year, which clearly is not terribly sensible. But where I am is in something of a dilemma, because if we don't recruit anybody now it seems to me unlikely that we will actually manage to reduce our times, that would in tern would mean we'd actually want [LAUGHTER] more staff next year [] erm, so I have set out a series of options. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Tails. [Richard:] I've got a flat sided coin. [Anita:] One does need to, going round drunning up drumming up customers, don't forget that. you're knocking on walls. [David:] Well the problem about, er two two does include, two does include going around drumming up customers, but the difficulty with that is it seems to me that that you'll need to drum up the customers in year one and only get the money [Anita:] Mhm, exactly. [David:] in year two, because the er, erm, so where I am [Anita:] Yes, but you're a two though, I thought this to erm, sort of even up the the work between the three teams [David:] Your [Anita:] rather than increasing the overall volume of. [David:] Er, that's five, really, I think, well two or five. Em, I mean that's good at way I am I think, that what we ought to do is to seek to erm, suggest to the Commission that York should take more of the Commission's total workload, I E to erm take some work from Coventry, and possibly also do a compensating transfer between London and Coventry. [Rob:] Yes, if one bears in mind that London's situation still seems to be relatively difficult, doesn't it? Erm, it would seem sensible if we look across the whole commission to try and even things out. [Anita:] Yes but it's the Midlands team that [Richard:] But I think that if you [Anita:] has the greater workload at the moment. [David:] Yes. [Richard:] Very incoming. [David:] I mean I, I, wasn't excluding working with them but if [Anita:] Yes. [David:] speed of through cut and er [Anita:] Yes. [David:] in other problems.. The other ideal, which I haven't got round to doing would be to try and appoint somebody on a short term basis. Erm, clearly we've got enough op, it would seem that if we could recruit somebody for the rest of this year, and er which would help us get our times down, if in if in fact we were able to recruit somebody who was instantly productive, which is not all that likely. [Marlene:] Do we know what the erm the wastage rates have been over the last few years? [Anita:] Small. [Graham:] Very little ever occurs. [Anita:] less than one a year after. [David:] I I that's a problem that in terms of could see whether our natural wastage in er would would cope with it. [Rob:] Actually [Anita:] We're a long way off retiring yet, Marlene. [Richard:] Until, until, this last year. [Karen:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] where er I mean, we have had two resignations, er [Anita:] Yes. [Richard:] this last year, which [Rob:] What you said a moment ago makes me wonder er about some of these calculations, because it, I take it assumes erm instant productivity, [David:] Yes. [Graham:] Yes. [Rob:] and y you can't calculate things any other way, I suppose, but in fact er n ne new appointees will not be instantly productive, and therefore will [Graham:] They tend to be. [Rob:] not in the vast measure reduce particular stage two workloads or times, erm [Graham:] I think they're more productive than we sometimes give give credit for [David:] We'll they, you get an early burst. [Graham:] You particularly get a burst and then you get a then you get [David:] That's right. [Graham:] a slow down or particularly. [David:] That's [Graham:] But, but it's still very useful. [Anita:] Well you get them up to stage one fairly quickly, it's the stage two isn't it. [Graham:] Because of the erm because of the erm of the total times involved, inevitably the stage two's are going to be, it's it's going to be in the second year that you're going to see reasonable output from them, [cough] not in first year. [Rob:] What's the reality of, supposing we took two on, and supposing the number of complaints steadied, or even fell, and the target times came way down, we're meeting everything. What are we really talking about when saying we would have to reduce the numbers of staff? Are we really talking about redundancies? Because if we are that clearly [David:] But [Rob:] conditions a great deal of what we do. [David:] I think you're only talking about redundancies if we can't erm take some short term work from elsewhere, er as opposed to, I mean, I'm suggesting at the moment we take stock a longer time [Rob:] Yeah. [David:] transition, erm clearly, er it would be a nonsense if we were making people redundant here ing if er either London or Coventry were struggling to cope with their [Richard:] Quite. [David:] er present work, and so I mean, you, you, could say we'll take it, er two or three hundred complaints from London, and buy time I suppose, erm to see if if if er work up here had picked up or natural wastage went or what ever, erm, if it didn't go up then, I mean in the long term, erm one couldn't envisage keeping on with more staff than what's thought to be a fairly generously assessed formula anyway, says we need. [Richard:] Mm. [David:] I mean the the formula, er, is not likely to be underestimating the number of staff we're needing, if anything it overestimates it, we think. Right. [Graham:] There's about five unpredictable variables in all of this, which is essentially [Anita:] The immediate problem is we're going to be three members of staff down fairly shortly. [David:] Well [Richard:] For [David:] You're not, well by comparison with [Rob:] Two of, two of them departed for a period of six months. [Anita:] Yes exactly, for at least six months. [David:] By comparison with last year, you will be ov overall this year by comparison with last year, er you'll be about point six of a member of staff down. [Graham:] And how many T Q facilitators are we likely to have? [David:] Two. [Graham:] And that's a day a week, as far as I remember. [Anita:] Mm. [David:] Yes. [Graham:] So that's that's quite a lot, if it's an investigator, which of course it may not be. [Richard:] Well almost certainly it will be, I think. [Graham:] Well [Rob:] There also of course the hours that [Graham:] it's the equivalent, it's the equivalent of two fifths of an investigator. [David:] Yeah. [Graham:] Erm [Rob:] But that is only a relatively short term thing again, and that period will consist [David:] No, that's [Marlene:] Three years. [David:] the long term. [Marlene:] Three years? [Rob:] Three years? Yes, I suppose so. [Graham:] A lot can change in three years. [David:] Yes that's true, that's true. [Graham:] And will, I've no doubt. [Richard:] I don't think anyone will go and gamble though on a lot changing in six months, which is the immediate problem, and you co [Anita:] Mm. [Rob:] Quite. [Richard:] you would take it, not want to take somebody on if we're actually going to make any body redundant next year. [Graham:] No, absolutely not. [Richard:] Other, unless anybody that you have seen and wo take your fancy is available on a short term, fixed term contract. [Graham:] I think only those who are unemployed are likely to be attracted by that, and I'm not sure how many we've got. [Anita:] Wasn't there some talk about Tricia wanting to come back to work? [Rob:] I, I, something floated in front of my eyes that she was thinking of applying on part time for the complaint examiner, but she didn't. [Graham:] I mean that is one area as the the complaint examiner matter where we've got, erm at the moment, erm the first corpus twenty eight percent going out in twenty six five, erm, which takes the food up, er a lot of those know will be going, I imagine, be going through investigators rather than [Rob:] Well they will be going through P as if everything goes [Graham:] Well, yes, yes. Okay. [Rob:] goes to plan. Erm [Graham:] And the the er formulas actually actually er reckon that we need erm three point seven complaint examiners at the moment. [Rob:] I think that shows something wrong with the formula. [Graham:] Well, except that work on the submission of twenty five percent going through the complaint examiner. [Anita:] Mm. Well certainly, you know, I think there there is work looking at the files that go through me, there is work for a second complaint examiner, because a lot of the files from investigators are actually fairly straightforward now [Graham:] Yeah. [Rob:] mm, I know Sarah's not dealing with them, so you know I'm sure that there would be enough work for a complaint examiner, but whether that would then mean investigators were light is is really [Graham:] Well there is there is an argument that says if P As do the twenty six five work, or the bulk of it, that Sarah might be a one team complaint examiner. [Anita:] Mm. [David:] One [Richard:] For a sub team. [Graham:] Sorry, for a sub team complaint examiner. [Anita:] Right. [Graham:] I mean she is capable of getting through some fairly extraordinary amounts of work. She does get through quite a lot that's true. [Anita:] Yeah, I [Graham:] There's a problem also [Anita:] I foresee problems with with that, there's no, there's a fair amount of travel involved, isn't there? [Marlene:] Mm. [Anita:] And, [Rob:] Yes. [Anita:] you know, if she's covering a whole area. [Richard:] I suspect the amount of travel might be capable of being reduced. [Anita:] Well it might be, but I mean if we carry on on our present system then I would have thought there was too much travel for one person to be covering the whole of the area on the way we're presently using Sarah, cos she does [Rob:] Cer [Anita:] go and visit more often. [Rob:] Certainly on the basis of the way we presently use her, I'm I'm not what wo [David:] Erm, er, erm, people could extend her times if she did it like she used to do before, because what she used to do is to say she would have a a day in Manchester in a months time [Anita:] Mm. [David:] or write you down as time scale, you'd presumably talking about planning up to six weeks perhaps before she trots around. [Anita:] Never the less, I mean, there is a sheer volume there. [David:] Yes. [Rob:] Yes. [David:] However that's a, I mean tha I I I think her, she's always turned in twice the level that the formula assumes, or at least twice [Anita:] Mm. [Richard:] That's right. [David:] the level that the formula assumes a complaints examiner will [Anita:] That would still give us to complaint examiners, because the formula is nearly four. [Rob:] What we certainly want to get away from is the present situation where two sub teams don't have a complaint examiner. [Richard:] That's right. [Anita:] Yes. [Richard:] That's right. [Graham:] It is an imbalanced situation at the moment, it does mean that some investigators are doing types of work which [David:] They shouldn't really be doing. [Graham:] They ought not to be doing, literally. [David:] Mm. [Marlene:] And for which we are paying too much. [Rob:] Yes. [Anita:] Mm. Because ultimately what we're talking about is the cost. [Richard:] I was going to say Pat's Pat's view is that, is that, Pat's view [Anita:] Isn't it? [Richard:] Yes. Pat's view that there is enough work to er have another complaint examiner really means instead of exec investigators. [Anita:] Yes. [Richard:] Rather than as well as. [speaker001:] Mm. [Anita:] Well it does really, I mean if we, it's a question of whether the budget will stand the staff, isn't it, it's not whether we, er I mean in terms of of redundancies it's whether we cou, if we appointed people we could afford to keep them on, whether or not there was work, I mean we could have create work in some senses. If the D O E won't give us any more money, which they won't do. So you might have a stand [Richard:] Well [Anita:] still budget, now you would have some decrease in costs because there would be less phone calls, there would be less paper, less trouble. [David:] Yes, well when I say stand still budget I mean a stand still on the basis of of saying that there will be no increase in incoming work. Erm, [Anita:] Yeah. [David:] I think translating into financial terms that actually means less money, because [Anita:] Yes. [David:] because they will look at the formula, won't they? [Anita:] Well exactly, but I mean [David:] He probably sold it to them. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Anita:] e essentially, I mean the problem is whether the money would stand the the staffing. [David:] And next year it won't. [Anita:] Well [David:] On, on, the [Anita:] We are assuming it won't. [David:] Yes. [Graham:] Cos it does depend, I mean if complaints, [Anita:] first of all [Graham:] if complaints fly up obviously that's out the window, but [Anita:] Well we still won't have the money. [Graham:] we don't think that'll happen. [David:] Yes, that's the problem. [Anita:] Because this is the problem, budgets are being prepared for August. [David:] If, if, if, if, if [Graham:] Right. [David:] if we lose out the argument that we should put in for some increase next year, and and we think it's going to be very difficult to sustain an argument, [Graham:] Mm. [David:] then even if we get the increase in work we will not have the staff available to cope with it, [Anita:] No. [David:] unless we can divert money from other sources, but that's erm, well I mean that's the reality behind fifteen years of fairly steady growth, and I mean looking at at plateauing out, I think. [Graham:] So what would be the worst possible picture we could be faced with next year? Erm, we would have enough money to keep the present establishment going? [David:] No. [Richard:] No. [Graham:] Not even enough to do that. [Richard:] That's the problem with it. [David:] The worst, the worst possible scenario, would be a need to reduce I think two investigative, if we didn't make any appointments now, a need to reduce er by up to two investigators, should be also including one next year. [Graham:] Mm. [David:] But, I mean we're a long way from that, and I don't want people to think that I'm from saying er redundancies are imminent, er [Graham:] No. But on the other hand appointing people in that light looks a bit odd. When do we know [David:] Other than, other than on erm a one year, fixed term contract. That, that would be feasible. [Graham:] How, how do we pay for that though? [David:] For what? [Graham:] In the worst case picture, how would we pay for that? [Rob:] The one year fixed term contract would go six months into the next financial year [David:] That's right. [Anita:] Mm. [Rob:] wouldn't it anyway, so it would be taking a bite out of that reduced cherry. [David:] Yes. But I'd be prepared to risk that [Rob:] Right. [David:] if, if all I was talking about was twenty thousand pounds out of next year, I E six months, erm an investigator, a member of investigative staff, very roughly, costs us forty thousand a year in salary and office costs. Erm [Rob:] I mean a fixed term contract for a year for a new in, for an investigator, first of all we've got to find someone who would do it, secondly if that person wasn't frankly al already an investigator the investment in that person. [David:] Oh, were were only talking about complaints examiner I think [Rob:] Or complaint examiner, but even then the investment in that person if they come at the end of the year go, I I would say, what a waste. [Anita:] Yes, but you [Richard:] Clear [Anita:] you've got the option then if, that if the work did increase and they were satisfactory [Graham:] They'd fit in. [Anita:] you could offer them a permanent place. [Graham:] It could be in your contract. [Rob:] Yes, that's right. [Anita:] What you wouldn't have are redundancy costs, because you make people redundant and it also costs money, doesn't it? [Rob:] Erm, depends how long they've [Anita:] Well [Rob:] been here, but [Anita:] Yes, but I mean there would be [Graham:] Quite a lot. [Anita:] I mean if we're talking about existing staff, then it may not be enormous but there is an in there is a cost involved with it, [Rob:] But there, but [Anita:] financial as well as emotional and psychological [Rob:] Well that assumes the person might want to stay anyway, but [Anita:] Well yes, but [Rob:] So it's a lot of risks and ifs in that isn't there? [Anita:] But they would, we had Olar who was very good and who very rapidly was was earning his keep, and he didn't even stay here, so, you know, if you make the right appointment, it's always dodgy that, you know. [David:] Teresa must have been productive fairly [Anita:] Yes. [David:] quickly as well in her role. [Graham:] I think you're probably looking at three hundred complaints, something like that, [Anita:] Mm. [Graham:] in the first year [Anita:] Why? [Graham:] but a lot of those were tiddlers, that that that maybe it maybe it's better to use experienced investigators, and and because they can do that work so much more quickly anyway, I I don't know, I feel a bit uncomfortable with this one year contract. [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] Unless it was somebody we have already used, and that really boils down to one person in York, and she's shown no signs of applying, so. [David:] The last I heard Trish was going to become a teacher, I mean I I we are supposed to be trying to think about whether we can have a sh a panel that we of people that we can call on for the short term crisis appointments or whatever, but [Rob:] I thought historically that didn't work very well. [David:] Well the add hoc panel of investigators didn't work terribly well, but the they the idea of, if there are a pool of ex employees in erm and in the main we're tending to think about er you you're talking about people who've left to have families I suspect, erm, if if there is a pool of them that you can pull in, maybe that would work slightly better. [Rob:] Yeah. [David:] Provided they've not been out of the job all that long, I think, cos things change, don't they? [Anita:] Yes, I mean we're not in the position to do what some of the, certainly I know some of the banks do, which is to guarantee a job after five years, let people have five years, you know, the maternity leave plus a guaranteed job at the end of another four when the kids start school, on the proviso that you can call them in if you need them within that period, for a bit of extra help. To maintain their involvement with the job [David:] Mm. [Anita:] but I mean that probably wouldn't appeal to the people we have presently seeking maternity leave. I imagine they would both want to come back anyway. [Graham:] This is an emergency. [David:] Sorry, don't you mean the two of them about to go. [Anita:] Yes, well they're the only two we could be thinking about. [David:] I mean they, they both firmly saying they're coming back on a full time basis, [Anita:] Yes exactly. [Rob:] That's right. [David:] er for by the end of this calendar year. [Anita:] Yes. [David:] So were, they've already, we've already got those in as committed people next year. [Marlene:] The other fact, I mean there's a lot of uncertain factors, the other one is that as far as I'm aware we actually have quite a large number of people, by comparison with the norm', actively applying for other jobs at the moment. [David:] Only four to my knowledge, I think. [Marlene:] I know five. [Rob:] You think five? [Marlene:] Oh yes, I think five. Erm [Graham:] Is that er er er [David:] Yes but I mean [Graham:] I mean these aren't the norm', I don't know what the norm is and this is the trouble. [David:] I [Graham:] I'm certainly aware tha [Richard:] It's more than we've had in recent years, judging by the general [Anita:] We've had a hell of a lot more people, now than we had. [David:] Ah. [Richard:] Mm, right. [Anita:] It's proportional isn't it? How [David:] I er er [Marlene:] I mean there's no certainty in in that [David:] No if people apply [Marlene:] any of them will actually [David:] people apply for jobs [Marlene:] get something, yes. [Richard:] Yes, [David:] fairly regularly, I think, [speaker001:] Yes. [David:] er some people. [Richard:] In two cases it's very much a specific one off application, [Marlene:] Mm. [Richard:] it isn't an indication that they're going to be applying for any other jobs that come up. [Marlene:] That's true. [Graham:] It's also one where the chance of success must be fairly high. [Marlene:] Fairly high, yes. [Richard:] Mm. [David:] Yes, well [Rob:] Well, [David:] I don't know. [Rob:] I doubt it actually, I think they, it ought to be but I don't think erm the people appointing are likely to look outside the immediate environs, and [Richard:] Erm, it would be unsafe, I think, to work on an assumption that what we're going to er one post becoming available through natural wastage per year, and even that erm, highish I think. [David:] Well, where I currently am is is saying that we should seek to revue the Commission's overall boundaries with a view to us taking on some extra work, and that meanwhile we should suspend further recruitment. [Rob:] Full stop? [David:] Yes. [Rob:] No, no complaints examiner, no investigator? [David:] Yes. [Anita:] Hemmed in really, and look at the figures for July and August. [David:] Well yes, I mean clearly they mean keep Lyn [Anita:] That's what you're saying. [David:] under review and er [Anita:] You're saying suspending her, not cancelling. [Graham:] But is the thing is budget led at this stage, I mean isn't that, are we really, isn't the [Anita:] Well [Graham:] isn't the actual setting of the budget the key rather than, I mean if complaints shoot up, but our budget is static then we just got to cope. [Anita:] Yeah. But I mean that would apply if we appointed. [Graham:] Yes. [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] Yes it would. [Anita:] Whether we appoint or not. [Graham:] We when do we know when what what we're going to get next year from D O E. [David:] Any time between October and February. [Graham:] Great. [Richard:] Requires real, that's the reality, I mean. [Anita:] Indications start coming in. I mean the budget presented will no doubt include an increase, we will put in a budget higher than this year's, I imagine, simply inflation and on costs, we'll will mean an increase over this year's budget, won't they? [Graham:] Well erm [David:] Erm, erm, that that's certain, and n a bit more at the end of the month, [Anita:] Right. [David:] there may be an expectation that we should, we should be absorbing increase in and getting roughly the same amount of money, but. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] Just like that. [David:] I mean I take it that nobody wants to recruit un until unless they're certain they can keep, [Rob:] No, absolutely not. [David:] the er the existing staff next year. [Anita:] Mm. [Graham:] That's right. [David:] That, that's an ea an easy question to answer. [Rob:] That's right. [Marlene:] The the question mark I've got is tha is that I I certainly accept that, it's the it's the question of the work being done at the appropriate level and the erm, the the fact that two sub teams are working without a complaint examiner, and, but I [Rob:] I was going to say that, I mean if we do do that why don't we move to a position when, I know it's not finalized yet, the P As do the twenty six fives, and we try and adapt Sarah to do the whole s the whole of the four sub teams,ma maybe the threshold has to come down a bit, but but at least we've got some sort of parity of working throughout [Anita:] Yes. [Rob:] throughout the organization. [Richard:] Mm, yes. [Graham:] I think that may be something we have to look at if er if we're not in a position to recruit another complaints examiner. [Rob:] I don't see why it shouldn't work. I mean [Richard:] Mm. I think we're taking twenty six fives out. [Graham:] We have Well, most of them. [Richard:] Mm well [Graham:] Not necessarily all of the them, but most of them, that would leave the straight jurisdictionals and the clear no hopers, maybe the investigators would be getting a few of the ones that otherwise ideally they shouldn't but [Richard:] Yes, I can en envisage that somewhere, perhaps a visitor's a first step towards clarifying what may be a runner would be taken by Sarah at the moment, but er, which we would put an investigator straight from future, for example. [Marlene:] How many complaints would a, would we be talking about then? [David:] I, I, I'm anxious to avoid a situation of double handling of complaints if we can. [Graham:] No I wasn't, I wasn't meaning that. [David:] No, well except that it would, it would happen to some extent, I mean the key is whether you, whether or not when a complaint comes in whether you can assess that it's likely to go to [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] to a stage two report, isn't it? Or a stage two investigation [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] if you can do that, then er only the other on, er all of the other ones can go to Sarah. Our past record on this isn't all that successful, but then again [Graham:] No it isn't, because I think if you, what you can do very very easily is assess those that are a likely on jurisdictional grounds to be rejected. [David:] That are [Graham:] That's, that's [David:] likely to be rejected? [Graham:] Likely to be rejected. [Richard:] Mm. [Rob:] Yes. [Graham:] That's a [Rob:] Oh yes. [Graham:] fairly easy. [Rob:] Yes, that's quite easy. [Graham:] You can also check er, and this this is a tiny percentage, those that are likely to go to a report. The trouble is, in the middle you've got a great gulf of lack of information, and predicting in those [Rob:] That's right, that's right. [Graham:] I mean you get, straight, no I object to this planning extension, looks fine, and then you start enquiring and all sorts of nasty things appear [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] so I think we're inerent, inherently, er, unlikely to be able to predict that very well, but certainly if we can get the jurisdictional outs, and the clear no injustices and those to Sarah, then I think we should do that across the four teams, what we've got at the moment is quite distorting as well, in other ways, look at my [Rob:] Yes, that's right. [Graham:] performance and my sub team, of course they can clear more complaints than you're sub teams, they're getting the dross in. [David:] Well they shouldn't do cos cos Richard's got Sarah. [Richard:] Yes that's right. [Graham:] Well, Marlene then, sorry. Well you've got are you still recording that [Rob:] Yes. [Graham:] you on, oh that's still that's the one two, isn't it? [David:] There should be an evening out, [Richard:] Yes, yes [David:] I mean [Richard:] it should work itself out. [Graham:] Yeah, sorry, I'm thinking of er [Anita:] Mm. [Rob:] You're looking at individuals [Graham:] Yeah, I was forgetting that that was that was calculated on the two. [David:] Yes, you're comparative performances as investigators will, well even that shouldn't differ all that much because those that have got Sarah available to them those are the teams who ought to be capable of concentrating more on their stage two work, shouldn't they? [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] But the reality is of course that those, that my investigators and Chris's will be doing work that strictly speaking they shouldn't be, and I think that's [David:] Well certainly they, that that, work is being done more expensively there [Graham:] Yeah. [David:] than need be the case. [Graham:] Yeah. [Marlene:] Do [David:] Well [Marlene:] we normally have many complaints from the job? [David:] we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we've got one decision I think which we are making, which is that we shouldn't at the moment, make any recruitment until we've got confirmation that we can guarantee employment next year,se, secondly I think we're saying that the first appointment that we do want to make is of a complaint examiner, and that if further investigators leave us, then we wouldn't be seeking to replace them as investigators, we'd be seeking to replace with the complaint examiner, that, that, that, [Rob:] What, to go to three complaint examiners? [David:] Oh no. [Richard:] Sorry? [David:] I'm saying the next appointment to be made is all by, a complaint examiner, what I shouldn't have thought we wanted to do at the moment more than one. [Rob:] Right. [Richard:] Mm. Mm. [David:] Erm [Rob:] And if a if [David:] although I mean there may be a er an argument in terms of lowest costing for reviewing generally how many investigators we do need, and [Rob:] Yes? [David:] and that's a longer term thing. We're doing in, in, in the short term. We'll be saying is that the first appointment of investigative staff to be made is of a complaint examiner. [Richard:] Mm. [Rob:] Sorry, I thought you were going onto say and the next one would also be. [David:] Well, I I I'm not going to be in anything. [Rob:] No, I'm the first, I wouldn't want to go that far ahead either. [Anita:] I think what you're saying that if anybody else leaves, then we might be in a position to make that appointment, [Richard:] Mm. [Anita:] maybe. [David:] W [cough] if anybody else leaves you'd be in a position to make the complaint examiner appointment, you're saying. [Anita:] Well that, we might be, we'd need [David:] Yes. [Anita:] to look at it again wouldn't we, but erm [David:] Okay. [Anita:] we'd need to look at it again, wouldn't we? But erm [David:] Okay. [Anita:] we'd be more likely to be able to make it. [David:] Right. [Richard:] Can we just take check then there how that leaves us with our recurrent recruitment program. [David:] You have produced, have you, three er potentially appointable complaint examiners. [Marlene:] Two. [David:] Two. [Marlene:] And a reserve, with [Rob:] So three? [Marlene:] were there some doubts. Yes. Two definitely appointable, one yes, but with reservations. [David:] Mhm. Erm, and they've been told that we might not be making any appointment at all? [Marlene:] No, no. What they were told was that erm a number of, a a short, short list would be made up, erm, with the possibility of them having a second interview, and they would be told one way or another whether or not they were getting a second interview, because we weren't in a position to say whether we were or were not appointing. [David:] Mm. Right. [Marlene:] So they will be expecting to hear either they've got a second interview or they haven't. [David:] Well. The, the minute, the note last time said a pool of cand, they, they will be told that a pool of possible candidat candidates will be contacted to attend for final interview once it's decided to go ahead with the new appointment, so you could the thr the the three, or whatever it is that you are not putting forward, that their, that our interest in them has ceased [Marlene:] Mhm. [David:] erm, but are we committed to seeing the other three immediately or are we [Marlene:] Mm. [David:] well the where did we we [Marlene:] No we're not committed. [David:] say to them erm we've not, we've decided at the moment, or we've not as yet decided to go ahead with the appointment, but when we do [Marlene:] Mm. [David:] we will contact you. That, that's what We could say that. [Marlene:] We could, we could say that, yes. [David:] Right. Well that would deal with the complaint examiners so [Rob:] That's [David:] the investigators, we're at what? [Richard:] They've got a long list, and I assume that the non long listed candidates have been told? [David:] Yes, they will have done. [Rob:] Yes. [Graham:] Tha, that's out. [Rob:] The long list have been told that erm, erm, notices were being made at and I think that's right, isn't it? [Graham:] I'm un, I don't know, actually, I'm not in contact with whose [Rob:] I'm not entirely clear what was said, but erm, they were certainly given no commitment to an an interview [Marlene:] Yes, they've been told that there's been a delay in the recruitment process, and that they will be contacted further, I think is what Marg [Rob:] I think in due course. [Marlene:] Margaret said, [Rob:] Mm. [Marlene:] yes. [Rob:] Good. [David:] And their are seven of them in in the [Graham:] Six and one. [David:] Well, do we think it's worth at all, it's worth while at all going compared with them. [Graham:] No, I would have thought not, given that were looking at [Rob:] We're certainly not in a position to do so at the moment. [Graham:] we're looking at the most likely scenario being appointing nobody, and if we do appoint somebody a complaint examiner, it seems, [Anita:] Mm. [Graham:] seems frankly a waste of time interviewing them. [Richard:] Presumably we would only be in a position to be considering an investigator if both, we had a erm a greater number of complaints from around the Commission coming into York, and i and further members of staff were to leave. [David:] Yes, well I [Richard:] It would have to be a fair, fair accumulation of those two factors. [David:] What, I had in mind is to get us to a point where if we decided that we do want to recruit somebody we can do that within er er a much shorter time scale than than our [Richard:] Yes. [David:] pattern. [Richard:] Mm. [David:] Er, in other words if we decided erm come the end of this month that yes we're going to take in one or more extra counties from Leicestershire, we would be in a position immediately to erm convene the er rec the appointing panel for a complaint examiner, wouldn't we? [Graham:] Yeah. [David:] Er, now if we [Marlene:] We could [David:] decided that we wanted a complaint examiner and an investigator, which I admit is unlikely, er we're much further along the, a much longer lead time there. [Anita:] Mm. [Graham:] Well, three or four weeks, I suppose, isn't it? [Marlene:] Yes, we could, if you wish actually cut back the complaint examiner time further because there is a clear, very clear, front runner, who Chris and I both believe is appointable, so if it was a question of getting somebody in more quickly, there is the option of not having the second interview, as long as you're prepared to, you know, to forego that, to get somebody in quickly, but that, I mean that decision can be made at the time. [Rob:] Of course there's a further complicating factor that if we do actually put the breaks on, people may either lose interest or go get other appointments. [David:] Yes, but that's a [Richard:] But that's, that's sort of [Graham:] Six months at the outside isn't it, this works for? [David:] Mm. [Marlene:] In two weeks. [Graham:] Is that what it is? Why's that? [Richard:] Well [Marlene:] I think is not the [David:] It is although, but that's, er, were thinking of changing that quite radically. [Marlene:] Mm. [David:] In my inclinations to actually go ahead with the with the interviewing round for your, er er how many did you say you? [Graham:] Six. [Rob:] No, sorry, erm, for the [David:] Women investigators. [Marlene:] The investigator. [Rob:] For the investigator. [Graham:] Six. [Rob:] About six, plus one. [Graham:] I think six plus one, I think that's right. [David:] And get those to the same stage as the, the complaints examiner. [Anita:] Because then at least you might be able to write out a few more. [Rob:] Yes. [Anita:] You could be quite openly [David:] We are talking about, with either of those groups, making the appointment from that pool, erm, in fact any time between now and the beginning of the next financial year. [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] If they were still available, and they may not be. [Richard:] You're front runner is, isn't local and unemployed, is he or she, your complaints examiner? [Marlene:] No. [Richard:] No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Although presumably [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Marlene:] Sadly not. Has to get [speaker001:] Is there still private practices? No? [Marlene:] Just give a months notice. [Graham:] Where? [Marlene:] Bristol.... [David:] Okay. I think we reluctantly Now I would do it slightly differently, I mean I would say that we want you to, we invite you to the next round of our recruitment thing, but there i, er have no decision has yet been taken as to how many if any appointments will actually be made. [Rob:] So that at the time people are invited to the er interview [speaker006:] Yes. [Rob:] rather than [David:] Yes. [Rob:] at, yes, I think that's fair. [David:] Yes, I I don't think that the this is bigoted as you think though in getting that kind of letter, I mean it seems, er that the civil service er recruit on that basis every year, and er, there is no guarantee if you get through the, the various screening bits that you do actually end up with a job, because that depends on vacancies coming up. [Richard:] Well as long as people are told. [Graham:] Well as long as people know that, yes, yes, yes. [Rob:] I think the first priority is that people are clear as to what the score is. [speaker006:] Mm. [Rob:] Re, well reasonably, clear so that they, it it's fair to them. [Graham:] Erm, just to pull back a bit then, I mean, two things seem to, I mean have we, what is our view on you putting Sarah in the middle if we don't recruit, and two, don't we need, probably the four of us to look at current resources [David:] Yes. [Graham:] er, future resources,an and rework our boundaries as well because I, I mean losing Anne is not going to be that easy. [Richard:] Quite, and I I have got a high proportion of of staff and you ha you will have a a low one would you [Graham:] Yes. [Richard:] say. I think we do need to make some adjustments, in the light of that, if we remain in our present staffing level. [speaker006:] Mm. From the first of September are you talking about? [Richard:] I would have to see, I think. Mr [Graham:] From round about then, cos I asked for the [David:] After the summer period. [Graham:] Well, yes. [Richard:] I would have thought so. I think it would be for us to talk together, the four of us for a start, and er, and bring proper proposals to future meetings wouldn't it? [David:] I think probably, what we could do with is a some criteria as to what what complaints are going to go to the complaint examiner if we've only got one of them. [Richard:] Yes. [Graham:] That shouldn't be too difficult, are we having [speaker006:] We [Graham:] an L L M next month? [speaker006:] That's just what I was going to ask, because it would be September, wouldn't it? [Graham:] Yes, I think so, because we don't usually have one in M August, do we? [speaker006:] That's right. [Richard:] The meeting on the thirtieth of July aren't we, with er what's [Rob:] Yes. [Richard:] his name. [Rob:] er Jack Taylor. [Graham:] Taylor. [Richard:] Er, after that people starting going on leave, is is anybody out away due in the first week in August? [Graham:] Erm, yes, me. [Rob:] Now normal, er now I mean, day would be the ninth of August, wouldn't it? Oh, I'm a, away the second of August. [speaker006:] Your due back on the ninth? [Rob:] And back on the ninth. [David:] As I recall it, that we didn't have a week during August where everybody was here, indeed we looked at diaries. [Rob:] No. [speaker006:] No, we didn't. Mm. [Graham:] No we didn't. [speaker006:] Mm. [Graham:] No, we didn't. [speaker006:] I I'm likely, er to be away the last two weeks in August, and David's going to be away the last week in August and the first of September, weren't you? Is that right? [David:] No it's it's the one week which bridges the two erm months, but er er I will be, that we would normally be meeting again on the thirteenth of September, wouldn't we? Yes. [speaker006:] Mhm. [David:] Is that too late? Or too early? [Rob:] No I couldn't accept. [Richard:] No. [David:] Okay, I'm getting to September. [speaker006:] Do we know exactly when Anne is leaving? [Graham:] Yes. [David:] Tenth of September. [Rob:] Well she's stopping work, I think in late August, isn't she? [speaker006:] She'll have leave, if she [David:] She [Graham:] She's got [Richard:] Sorry? [Graham:] some leave. I mean, she's she's effectively not getting complaints as from now [speaker006:] Oh, right. [Graham:] so I've got to get rid of her staff. [David:] Mm. H right, shall we have a coffee cup for [Rob:] Good idea. [speaker006:] Oh. [Graham:] He's right about the will. [break in recording] [Rob:] But they haven't discriminated [David:] Well they had one, but that was er, that was never changed from the time when we had complaint examiners before. [Rob:] Cos an investigator that couldn't do stage twos? [David:] Yes. [Rob:] In other words allocation was not, [David:] Yes. [Rob:] there was no intelligent decision on allocation, it was simply, [David:] Yes, that's right. [Rob:] allocate as an investigator, [Graham:] That's right, it was reallocated as a stage two. [Rob:] and then reallocated again, but I think that's daft. [Graham:] But there, there, most recent one was over a Sarah Patten, and the they are now repeating that one as I understand it. [Rob:] Oh, good. [Richard:] Yes. [David:] Well a high priority that one, so the they're recruiting two e, two new Sarah Patten ones. Right, erm, budget E control. I don't think we've got to the early days, made too many assumptions from this, particularly as they are seasonality er erm adjustment isn't terribly good. Er, we need to now have some to er cover the cost of proposed adaptations to bring support staff together, which I'll, which we've got in hand, and we'll also be miring money, I think from the salary budget to help with the cost of er the total quality training. [Graham:] Erm, the with with reference to something that comes up later on the training budget looks a small figure, as against what we're talking about later in the meeting. [David:] Er that's because the er the the the training budget at the moment down for York is purely er the attendance of professional conferences, [Graham:] Right. [David:] and everything else comes in the er personnel training, in lieu of the personnel budget. [Graham:] Oh right, right. [David:] Can items for the management team executive committee, I think I have three, erm one is to say that the the title of the total quality programme is going to be improvement through quality, in which case that's the, that's the phraseology which we should use from now on, is it like, it'll actually abbreviate to I Q rather than T Q. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] How effective. [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] It's just one of those phrases [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] that's meaningless in reality. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Except that there's an implication there that there's, well I suppose there is a need to improve isn't there really. [Richard:] Yeah, quality through improvement, might be better. [speaker006:] Mm. [Richard:] Er. [Rob:] Never mind. [David:] Secondly, there's an item in the management team tele-conference minute which are due to be confirmed today, the which I shall be querying about work in the office, out of office hours. [speaker006:] Mm. [Richard:] Yes. [David:] Erm, and it is not my intention to implement that minute at the moment, because I think it relates purely to a London situation. [Richard:] Where are we at? Sorry. [Rob:] The commission's legal liabilities to establish efforts. [David:] No, well there's a ne it's the next isn't it over the [Richard:] it's [David:] page, I think Richard? [speaker006:] Was this because of the over accident? [Graham:] Ah, right. Yes, yes, yes. [David:] And the the logic of what's being said there is effectively to abandon the flexitime scheme out of, for working out of office hours,. [Graham:] Well wouldn't? Erm, I thought flexitime scheme began at seven thirty and ended at seven thirty? [David:] Yes, but a that that is saying [Graham:] There are so beyond seven thirty, though. [David:] Oh yes. What, what does that minute say. [Graham:] It says, [reading] until firm decision is taken the staff would not be allowed to work within office buildings out of flexitime hours []. [David:] Out of flexitime hours, right. [Graham:] Yes. So presumably, for, that would be seven thirty [David:] Oh, right. [Graham:] to seven thirty. [David:] Right. Well there's no logic to that there because the the lack of cover and er whatever applies the minute the last person leaves, and that erm it lies that the the concern is that if somebody who was in on the building, in the building on their own has an accident, [Graham:] Mm. [David:] nobody might discover it until the office opens on the next morning, erm [Richard:] But there's always going [David:] it's that [Richard:] to be a last person. [speaker006:] Mm. That's right. [David:] Yes. [Rob:] Yes, that's right. [Richard:] Rather than that's, but you make sure it's ju [Graham:] Except if you call [speaker006:] Could be a last person at six er clock. [Graham:] the last people who leave [Richard:] This [speaker006:] So what about are beavers, [Graham:] Four o'clock. [speaker006:] who are on the staff, and in theory work until quarter to eight [Graham:] Well it's exactly the same problem, I think. [Rob:] Except there's two of them, and they're always to [speaker006:] Not at the moment. [Graham:] Not at the moment. [Richard:] I thought there was two [speaker006:] There should be two. [Richard:] I saw someone else floating around. [speaker006:] There should be two. [David:] Erm, I mean it is a problem, and er one that we're addressing, but [Richard:] Mm. [David:] er at the moment I wasn't wanting to s s change any anything that, which is been happening up till now, I mean if people do want to come in here at weekends or late I don't see any reason [Richard:] Mm. [Rob:] to stop them at the moment. [Richard:] I don't. [speaker006:] So [Rob:] carry the risk. [speaker006:] is it, is it that the insurance [Marlene:] were in there weren't they? [speaker006:] yes, but is the insurance not, does it not cover people in the premises outside office time. [David:] No, no I don't think it's an insurance problem. [speaker006:] No it isn't. [David:] It's a, no, it's a [speaker006:] It's a worry about people hurting themselves. [David:] Yes. [speaker006:] Yes, as you say, I mean I think that's erm for the people themselves [Richard:] Yes. [speaker006:] I thought it might be that there was a, we weren't covered for the liability to pick people [Richard:] Quite. [speaker006:] if something happened. [Graham:] Or we face prosecution. [David:] I think there's a, you face prosecution for failing to provide a safe system of work, or something. [speaker006:] I mean that could be the case at eight. [David:] I mean, for instance, there is no first aider on duty, as apparently, well there's a suggestion that you need to have a first aider on duty if you've got people in the building. [speaker006:] Good. [David:] Erm, and that's why I'm saying [speaker006:] Mm. [David:] we don't have a first aider on duty outside normal office hours, not flexitime hours, and er, if you're letting that run the thing. [Richard:] No. [speaker006:] Mm. [David:] So it will. Just forget tha about that and I will [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] it this afternoon. [speaker006:] And people all over the place. [David:] Yes. [Richard:] Yes. [speaker006:] Yes they are. [Richard:] Take your first aider with you. [David:] You'll probably find the [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] that'll that'll that'll throw the budget into confusion, won't it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] The first aider would also need an ergonomics officer. [David:] Erm, now, the the third thing was about the training program, just to reiterate where we are on this, that if a request is made for personal development training in the current year, if you remember we, if we identify training needs that that we as management identify, that people need in order to do there present job, and then that takes absolute priority and we should get on and do those, but we get a large number of requests where people erm are, saying that they like to do things which they don't need to do, but which they think will better equip them, and if they're, if we're getting any new requests this year with an expectation that further expenditure will be sought in the next financial year, that's ninety four, five, then that request will be refused, in other words we ca, we do not see our way to committing ourselves to any [Richard:] Mm. [David:] training expense next year, er er er in that category. Although we might be prepared outside our normal scheme to fund the current year's training for such people on the understanding that future funding will not be available, so in other words if somebody comes along to you and says, I'd like to do an M B A, beginning this year, now normally we we would say, yes, we will contribute our half to that cost, er and that would then be a high priority on our budget to provide continued support for the rest of that M B A course, we're now saying that that the answer is actually no, because we cannot provide support next year, we don't think, er but if you never the less want to go ahead this year and then fund it yourself from then on, then we we have actually got money available which we can use this year. That make sense to people? [Richard:] Yes. [Rob:] Yes. [Graham:] It would have to be, given what we've just been talking about. [Rob:] Er [Marlene:] Could I raise just the one minute of the Tail Conference, David? The erm, the the nature of the erm the fourteenth of June, the the the Total Quality minute, the it seems to be referring to a document that sets out various phases of the er Total Quality programme. Is it possible to get a copy of that? [David:] No. [Marlene:] Mm. [David:] Short answer, I mean it's the the it's it repeats referring to a document which Gordon had produced,whi whi which has already been er amended, erm, which bit are you actually looking at? [Marlene:] The item, item three. [David:] Yes,we,we [Marlene:] For the proposals in Gordon's memo were agreed. It seems to be referring to a document that that that sets out the whole total quality process as far as the commission is concerned. [David:] Yes, it sets it. Erm, no it doesn't, it picks out various bits from er er from a memo that Gordon dealt with, it doesn't set out the total alternate budget process. [Marlene:] Ah, I see. [David:] Mm, [Marlene:] Okay. [David:] Erm [Marlene:] Thank you. [David:] Alright. You will simply need to wait until the thing is sufficiently settled that you can get the total package set out here, and [Marlene:] Mm. [David:] we're not quite sure what it is you are wanting that you are wha what specific query you've got. [Marlene:] Well I haven't, it's just that that people have said, you know, when the permissions available can we see it as soon as possible that was all, I just wondered if that document was available, [David:] No. [Marlene:] but I mean if it's not yet that's fine. [Graham:] A bit like asking what heaven's like and being told you have to die first. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Well let's hope that that's a good analogy. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Yes, I agree with that, say that would [speaker006:] The heaven bit anyway. [Graham:] that would re that would er ease your recruitment problem. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] I would point out that the same applies to hell. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Right, that takes us on to looking at er Pink team minutes which we haven't got, is that right? [speaker006:] We haven't actually got the Pink team minutes yet. [David:] But and green team that we have, and [Richard:] We're well worth spending a few hours over this, I think. [Rob:] I think so, yes, and since my watch [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Richard:] Can I minute that we thank the green team? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] What about the bit at the top of page two, which says that still don't use them in York [Graham:] This? [David:] at the analytical thinking seminar held in November. [Rob:] Yes, [Richard:] I I read that with great interest, [LAUGHTER] I'm not at all sure what it means. [Graham:] No Ha Hardy phoned me last week asking for the details of jobs we get fr, er of who to erm who to contact for it, that's all for that needs. [Richard:] I see, she's probab presumably referring to the March, erm [Graham:] Yeah, yeah. [Richard:] and not the November one [Graham:] Mm. [Richard:] I have in fact si since seeing this sent her a copy of the paper I put to this meeting, erm, having seen that, because I didn't know that she was waiting for it to the commentary with. [Graham:] No. [Richard:] But it's on it's way. [David:] Seventeen, I'd wondered about. Erm [Rob:] Yes, I was intrigued by that one. I was going to ask to ask the assistant new commission policy. [David:] No, it didn't, er as far as I know. [speaker006:] What is the policy? [Richard:] Was it everything goes second apart from er [speaker006:] Reports. [Marlene:] Reports. [Richard:] apart formal reports, and [Rob:] We, even even that is is that we we we we we even had a party on faxing, didn't we? Which I suspect has lapsed. [David:] Then we should fax the home one page letters. [speaker001:] Yes. Mm. [David:] if possible. [Richard:] Yes, I'm not, I'm not sure that's still happens, does it? Do you know Karen? [Karen:] I think so, hmm. [Richard:] I expect I've got a tell from the files. [David:] It's cheaper to fax a one page letter than it is to post it. [speaker001:] Yes. [David:] So we are reiterating our policy of faxing one page letters rather than posting them. [Graham:] I think that's worth the effort, yes. [David:] and er [Rob:] But certainly not announcing this first class post. [David:] and not intending to er send things by first class post. [speaker006:] Yes, erm, do we accept faxed letters as complaints? [David:] Yes. [speaker006:] Cos I thought we did. [David:] Why ever not? [speaker006:] But I've only seen one or two, can we think about photocopying them if it's that thin, because by the time it gets to me sometimes it's not legible. [David:] Ah, well it should, you're probably talking about old ones rather than new ones, because they use fax machine prints on plain paper rather than [speaker006:] I see. [David:] on curly and shiny paper. [speaker006:] Right, well I I just just looked at one where I was struggling, that's why I mention it. [Rob:] I always love the idea of information disa disappearing slowly. [Richard:] [LAUGHTER] [Karen:] Oh yes. [Richard:] Relatively quickly I think. [speaker006:] I just wondered whether we've actually met the requirements of the, of the act. [Rob:] Matches my mind. [speaker006:] I presume it does, but it it could be argued, couldn't it? [David:] No, if a complaints made in writing it's good. [speaker006:] Possibly it is but it's not a na proper signature, it's a photocopied signature. Should we not accept an original [David:] Oh, got to have some bits of writing somewhere. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] The act doesn't refer to signatures, does it? [speaker006:] Oh it does actually, yes, I have [David:] Okay, anything else on the green team? [speaker006:] I'm not bothered either way as long as I can read it. [Rob:] Right. [David:] Looking at, looking at Marlene's minutes then, page one. Page two, trying to pick up the bit at over the bottom of the door. [Richard:] Hmm? [David:] Your office appears unwelcoming. [speaker006:] Yes, I was [David:] I mean we're not exactly trying to get people to drop in off the street, are we? I I er I er our office now appears in exactly the same way as the other two, namely that you need to announce yourself and who you are before you get let in the door. [speaker006:] Yes. [Karen:] I was quite surprised that there was some sort of strength of feeling, that the balance between providing security, and the impression that we gave to visitors, although it was acknowledged we didn't have a lot of visitors coming in, there was a feeling [Richard:] to us. [Karen:] that it had had maybe tilted the the wrong way. [Rob:] I think with the the people who say that it should have clear instructions, it's not immediately obvious which button you should press, and maybe you, maybe something which says, Visitors, please press here, or something like that. [Graham:] Mr could please press over there. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Exactly. [David:] Er. [speaker006:] Because I never know in London which button to press, either the one at the top or the one at the bottom. [David:] I remember, very con, I remember very confusing [Richard:] Yes it is. [David:] I press them both and er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] See what happens. [David:] something'll happen, don't know what. [Rob:] I just hope the receptionist [speaker006:] It always [Rob:] sees me arriving and [speaker006:] Well she usually does, she's incredibly [Rob:] Yes that's right. [Graham:] Yes. [speaker006:] good. [Rob:] Yes, that's right. [speaker006:] They're nearly always open before I get there that er [David:] Can you do something about the? [Marlene:] We will see what we can come up with that'll be weather proof, we may just have to keep on going out er sticking labels [Graham:] Great. [David:] The bit about reception is writing the visitor's name in the visitors book seems to be quite reasonable. [speaker006:] I'm [David:] I I object on principal when I go to places saying write your name in the visitors book, so why should you. [Marlene:] Yes, it actually came up [David:] What purpose does it serve? [Marlene:] because one or two people have er relatives that come in at the end of the day to collect them or [speaker006:] Right. [Marlene:] you know, give them a lift home, and they felt that it was a bit discourteous to be asked to write them name in the book every time, and it it I mean it seemed to be quite reasonable that we're [David:] I'm less worried about being discourteous to relatives that I am to er other people, frankly. [Marlene:] and and also not all erm there was reference made to, I can't remember which company it was, but somebody, you know, who was th not particularly literate had filled in the book. [David:] Well I don't think it's, I don't think it's terribly good actually to be able to to be telling other people who has already been here, erm [Richard:] Mm, good. [David:] I am conscious that I have visited somebody a while ago and noticed the name of somebody e in the book in which rang very loud alarm bells in my mind [speaker006:] Mm. [David:] as to what they were doing there, and [speaker006:] Mm. [David:] that therefore it would be better not to be doing that, so perhaps we can change that, okay? [Karen:] Mhm. [speaker006:] How though? By not having a visitors book? [Karen:] Oh no, Jackie will ask for [speaker006:] Yes. [Karen:] the name and just fill it in. [speaker006:] but not get, not get them to sign it. [David:] No. [Karen:] She'll, she'll write their name. [speaker006:] She'll just write their name. [David:] Dead simple. [speaker006:] I was just thinking that maybe at the beginning of the day people could, if she knows who is due she could actually write that in, and when they came she could just tick that that they'd arrived. [Karen:] Well there is a of course the tannoy coming in, the [speaker006:] Yes, I noticed that. [Karen:] cos the fire officer asked for that. [speaker006:] Yes. [Richard:] Mm. [David:] Does the, but we don't keep a list, do we, of whose of our own staff is in the building [speaker006:] No. [Richard:] No. [Karen:] Yes, Jackie has the whereabouts, now if she keeps, she also keeps a list of the erm support staff, but if they actually go out at lunch time that we don't know. [David:] Mm, of course. [Rob:] Or at tea, when they come in in the morning or when they go home in the evening. [Karen:] Mm. [Richard:] That's right, I mean there's a grey area between [Karen:] Yes. [Richard:] eight and ten in the evening and four [Karen:] Mhm. [Richard:] to six [Karen:] Yes. [Richard:] at night, we'd be very uncertain if there had been an alarm bells rang then. [David:] Coventry have a book which they keep for fire purposes of, signing themselves in and out. [speaker006:] What would be easier would be a simple board with everybody's name and you just sort of erm put it across to in or out as you are coming up. [Richard:] Except there's quite a lot of people back there. [Karen:] There's fifty of us to put on it. [speaker006:] I know, but never the less it's easier to [Marlene:] So you couldn't carry it outside when the fire alarm went off. [Richard:] I was going to say, it's likely to be [David:] Well you could, you could have it on a hook. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I've, I've, all little things, [Karen:] Sewn on. [David:] all the little things that er [Marlene:] Yeah, Bob's wife. [Graham:] burned to death rescuing board. I, I, can't see it, it seems to be one of those things that has no purpose. [speaker006:] Well, only in case of accident or injury, you see. [Graham:] Yeah, but I [Rob:] Well we do, we do have another means don't we, were by the fire officers on each floor or each area [speaker006:] In each section. [Rob:] will, will check through [Richard:] Well [Rob:] the rooms in their area. [Richard:] if we're serious about that we need I think to review that very regularly, because I moved offices and discovered I was still a fire officer for a part of the office I wasn't even part of, [Rob:] It needs to be kept up to date. [Richard:] or was more accurately a fire officer for a part of an office that I wasn't aware of, so I mean I think. [speaker006:] There should really be somewhere in the building a place which tells you who is in the building at what times. [Richard:] I don't know what question to I thought all were supported out, with the assumption that they were going to be [Karen:] No, I'm a fire officer. [Graham:] I'm a fire officer. [Rob:] So am I. [Richard:] Yeah, I'm a fire officer. [David:] That's why you're intriguing about this, I thought that [Karen:] We that would be alright for Marlene [David:] it would be better if they were support [Karen:] Yes. [David:] staff, because er [Karen:] Yes but there wasn't any support in Marlene's area. But when we moved them, [speaker006:] There will be. [Karen:] there will be. [speaker006:] That's true, yes. [David:] Alright, well maybe, perhaps we could have a review of why our fire [speaker006:] Yes. [David:] arrangements are anything else on page er three. [Graham:] Trois. [David:] Page [Karen:] Could I just go back to er this health and safety, erm it says here that there is a personal alarm on reception, that's the receptionist. I could put another one on for any member of staff who wishes to take one to use at interviews. [Richard:] I thought that's what we said last time we were doing. [Karen:] No, you said would I bring it up at this meeting. [Richard:] Did I, but you you you brought it up last meeting, that that that erm people were going as supposed to be coming back with good ideas as to how to cope with interviews in other rooms, but we said in last time that we were going to have a personal round bill. [Graham:] A bit like the aerosol. [Richard:] Yeah. You did a paper which said, [speaker006:] Yes. [Richard:] wherever an interview takes place people can take this personal alarm with them [speaker006:] Yes. [Richard:] and should alert somebody nearby to listen for it, did that? So it took out [Marlene:] All my investigators who want them have got personal alarms of their own. [speaker006:] The ladies? [Marlene:] Yes. [speaker006:] Mm. [David:] Well presumably the men as well. [Marlene:] Mm. [Rob:] If they want them too. [Marlene:] All the ones who wanted them. [David:] Yes. [Richard:] Like this. Just something. [Marlene:] Mm. [speaker006:] Indeed. [David:] Bottom of page three. Page four. [Graham:] It's only just occurred to me erm, somebody mentioned that new members of staff, and the support staff ever since, but it needn't necessarily be arrive. [cough] And no one, sort of knows. No one is aware of what's going on, doesn't have a chance to meet them. Is it possible when we get a new member of, that, not that they're brought round, which I think must be frightfully intimidating, but that we are told, and therefore we can drop in and say, hello, I'm so and so, just to say hello. [Karen:] Oh, you mean in other teams. [Graham:] Yes, I mean I'd no idea who Carol was, I just bumped into her. [Marlene:] It was in the minutes, you should have read them. [Graham:] I did. I said [LAUGHTER] I assume this be Carol? [Marlene:] [LAUGHTER] [Graham:] Just a small point, but I think when people arrive that they they perhaps feel isolated, and that we're a little unfriendly. [Karen:] Well we have got quite a lot of detail working package from within their own teams, and within the support staff, so you want that extended so that they can [Graham:] Nothing elaborate, just a note, perhaps to A D saying [Richard:] Mm. [Graham:] there is a new, perhaps your staff could drop in and say, hello some time during the week. [David:] I don't mind dropping in and saying, hello, we we are getting to a size where, er I think it's speci slightly impractical, I mean er I can see there was so might be useful to know there's a new member of staff here, it's either then say there was somebody wandering around, who are you and what are you doing here. [speaker006:] Mm. [Richard:] Mm. Yes I think [speaker006:] Just a little note,. [Richard:] Yes, I think that [speaker006:] Okay. [Richard:] would be useful. [speaker006:] So and so has started, or will start, alright. [Graham:] Yes,cert [speaker006:] Then. [Graham:] in the week before somebody comes then I think perhaps a note saying, so and so's starting. Okay. [David:] Mhm. [Graham:] We haven't got anybody else's minutes to look at? [David:] No. The trainee plan, which I think I can now re-vote. If you want to say anything about that? [paper rustling] Tie me up. [Graham:] Why was the Lotus issue put into this mo this year's training plan when it was last year's money? [David:] I don't know. [speaker001:] I'm not sure. [David:] It actually took place this year. [Graham:] Did it? [David:] Yes. [Rob:] No. [Graham:] It was in March, wasn't it? [Rob:] No, no it took took place in the end of March. [David:] Did it? I thought it was the beginning of April. [Richard:] Yeah. It did. [Graham:] I just [speaker001:] Yes. [Graham:] wondered if there was anything significant about it? [David:] No. [Graham:] Right. [Rob:] A bit [Richard:] I just [David:] Taking off and being done, that is. [Graham:] Okay. [Marlene:] Can I just, er, clarify the poi, the very last item, the er the Jules, Jules M B E, erm I thought she was finishing new one? [David:] Er, well, she she's not being supported by the commission for year one, and in fact she won't be supported for year two either, so the thing that, I I'm I'm I put it in as a potential budget [Marlene:] Well. [David:] thing for next year, but I mean she will be one of those caught by the thing saying we're not going to do it anyway. [Rob:] Is the attendance at professional conferences something that's earmarked, or is it just [Richard:] That's the five hundred pounds that's in our budget as opposed to in the the the personnel budget. [Rob:] Yes. There is [Richard:] I mean that that's a er that's a [Rob:] It, it's an estimate so that it's there if anybody wants to say. [Richard:] Yes, that's to deal with the odd request in the course of year. [Rob:] Yes, right. Right. [Richard:] C P D stands for Continuous Professional Development, it applies only to Nick at the moment. [Rob:] Mm. [Richard:] Okay? [Rob:] The analytical skills one you put seven hundred and fifty d down d d does that mean you had in mind that there might be three seminars in the course of the year. [Richard:] Er. [David:] No I don't think it'd be, don't think it meant that, I thought we went, to could be two, we're going to have another one. [Rob:] I think we had [speaker006:] Yes. [Rob:] in mind that we should have another one but er [David:] Yes. [Rob:] the previous one cost us I think two hundred pounds. [Richard:] Erm, well I think we had budgetary provision in five hundred for it, and I think we've probably increased it, er was it unchanged originally? It means we might have some money left over after [Rob:] Yes, right, okay. [speaker001:] [cough] [Graham:] mine's more suited to that, I think next time er once we've got somewhere out of the way and can [Richard:] That's right. [Graham:] actually get these things done. [Rob:] I was going to say, is there anything on the cards for local authority finance, or is that still awaiting? [Graham:] Erm [David:] Well, how about a memo about it to somebody saying can they suggest a potential person, you know. And we haven't had a reply back. [Richard:] Alright, consultation on twenty six five, procedures. This is Teresa's response to the proposal. If anybody wants to comment on it, or any I think perhaps just confirm the calculation about being roughly one a day, that erm if you take the number of decisions that we made in the last twelve months, twenty one point eight percent of which were, erm, decisions to be put out by twenty six five, if we divide that by four, divide it by fifty two, and divide it by five you end up with point eight six per day, er [David:] Is that right? [Richard:] Quite sure why, how somebody else says that the number of twenty six five termination suggests that peers will be dealing with more than one file each day, well, but that's what the arithmetic says. [Rob:] Mm. [speaker006:] And also would agree that team secretaries wouldn't be involved. [Richard:] Yeah. [David:] Yes. [Graham:] What, on the basis that if the P A isn't there the areas are going to to do it themselves. [speaker006:] Or pass it for another. [Marlene:] Yes. [Rob:] Either that or if there was further weights redundant to an investigator. And there is certainly no plans for other complaints to go to P As. [Richard:] Well, erm [Rob:] Are there? [David:] Stay with that a minute, erm, erm,... I mean I wouldn't have thought we were in a position to give an assurance that er erm, that that no other complaints which appear to be outside the local ombu ombudsman's restriction will be dealt with by support staff, I mean I should think we're continuing looking continually looking for ways of dealing with complaints at the most efficient and effective way, and if that [Graham:] Certainly given assurance there's no plans. [David:] Well there are no no immediate plans you could say. [Rob:] Slightly disingenuous, in fact we are saying, there is a possibility that er [David:] Hang on a minute, I just wan want to work out what happens if a complaint comes in against the Gas board? [Rob:] Well the A D would perhaps, no I suppose it might not have reached me. [Richard:] No it wouldn't. [speaker006:] No. [Rob:] Sometimes they do. [David:] So. [speaker006:] It's already been dealt with by support staff. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] By support staff, and. [Graham:] Mm, yeah. [Rob:] Yes, Joe? [David:] So I don't think you, I should think partly we just cannot give an assurance that no other complaints will be dealt with by support staff, really that we. [Rob:] No, you can't, er, sorry, I was taking that literally that we we certainly not intending it, this was this was very much directed at twenty six five. [David:] Erm, nor I think are there any proposals to change the grading or pay honorarium to P As to reflect there work on these files, er, I'm not sure whether the assumption that this wouldn't be taken into account by the W R is sound, because I think one of the principles that I recall was that he were meant to ensure that that each of these job evaluation panels had somebody from each office so that an account could be taken of the different practices, I mean I'm sure that, I'm sure that each of the three offices in the er deal with things in a different way, so that er what gets done by one person here is not necessarily done by people in Coventry and York, and that in fa in London, and that also holds good in the other way, I think. Do we see any difficulty in er in what were in effect saying, that the base says, we have no objection to the proposed wording from either the extra duties recognized in outline above, and they're not going to be. [Rob:] Fine. Right. [Graham:] Is it at at the bottom paragraph? [Rob:] Yeah. [Richard:] Mm. [Rob:] I'm just trying to see what extra duties are recognized as outlined above, presumably, yeah. Well I don't have any problems with what you say. [David:] Well, on the para four job evaluation erm it seems to me that this is an item that can be fed into the, would automatically be fed into the evaluation process. [speaker001:] [cough] [Rob:] Yeah. [David:] Don't forget we're talking about changing people, somebody's job description to include a... Can you? [Rob:] Yes. [David:] Right, er next evening we settle the thirteenth of September then? [speaker006:] Mhm. Outside the meeting can I just say I'm getting some of the new screening sheets through, you know first, but people don't seem to know what they're supposed to do with them and their in exactly the same position that they were before. [recording ends]

[Mr H A Redfern:] All right sit please.... I've checked your books... and I have to say... that I'm very pleased. Worked very well most of you erm Rachael you weren't here last week were you?... What five S, this is five S five you were over there. [Mrs Trinder:] Er [Mr H A Redfern:] . [Mrs Trinder:] Oh well it doesn't matter. We've got. [Mr H A Redfern:] . [Mrs Trinder:] Yeah. [Mr H A Redfern:] I'll explain later. [Mrs Trinder:] So this this is five S? [Mr H A Redfern:] Yes. [Mrs Trinder:] Right. [Mr H A Redfern:] Mrs. [Mrs Trinder:] Okay. [Mr H A Redfern:] Right if I can give Ken those to give out. Erm and while Ken's giving them out let's try and remind ourselves what we talked about last week. The rule is I ask and you put your hand up. What did we talk about last week? Chris. [Chris:] The universe. [Mr H A Redfern:] The universe. What is the universe? Louise. [Louise:] Er the universe is er planets. [Mr H A Redfern:] Is it? Is that all it is? No hand up. Jennifer. [Jennifer:] The universe is everything. [Mr H A Redfern:] Everything absolutely everything. How big is the universe?... Phillip. [Phillip:] No one knows. [Mr H A Redfern:] Nobody knows. What's that word, who was that put that word up that was it you Phillip? Er... what was that word you you used last week? [Phillip:] Infinitive. [Mr H A Redfern:] Infinitive. The universe is infinite we don't know. When we look out of the window at night what do we see? Jody. [Jody:] Stars. [Mr H A Redfern:] Stars. What are those stars? [Jody:] Suns. [Mr H A Redfern:] Suns. Not all of them most of them are. Some of them are? Alan. [Alan:] Planets. [Mr H A Redfern:] Planets. How many stars are there? Come on everybody's hand should be up, how many stars are there? It's that word again isn't it? Infinitive. We can't count them because if we could count all the ones that we could see there's still plenty beyond those. What's the nearest star to us. What's the nearest one? Louise. [Louise:] Is it the sun? [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun. The sun. Our sun. Well why can't we see stars during the day. If we look out at the sky why can't we see stars during the day? Steven. [Steven:] It's too light. [Mr H A Redfern:] It's too light and where's that light coming from? [Steven:] The sun. [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun. Our star is too bright for us to see stars from further away. Do you know why we can see them at night and not at day time. Why is the sun bright during the day time? Does it switch off at night? That's what we've got to go on to. I'm just wondering how much you know already. Kieran. [speaker010:] The earth turn round. [Mr H A Redfern:] The earth turns round so we're in a shadow. Host stars will have what going round them? [speaker010:] The moon. [Mr H A Redfern:] Not the moon no. Phillip. [Phillip:] . [Mr H A Redfern:] Try. You're doing really well. [speaker010:] Planets. [Mr H A Redfern:] Planets. How many planets has our sun got that we know about because there might be some we don't know. Lee. Nine. Nine. Nine that we know about. Which one are we? What's the name of our planet? Katrina. [Mrs Trinder:] Earth. [Mr H A Redfern:] Earth. How where do we come in the order of nine? Are we furthest away, nearest, in the middle?. [speaker010:] Third. [Mr H A Redfern:] Third. And you wouldn't remember just how far away we are would you? You, come on. [speaker010:] One hundred and fifty million kilometres. [Mr H A Redfern:] A hundred and fifty million kilo kilometres. I think you deserve a house point there. What house are you in? [speaker010:] . [Mr H A Redfern:] . Oh go on then. Hundred and fifty million kilometres from the sun. And what does the sun do for us? [speaker010:] Er gives us energy. [Mr H A Redfern:] Gives us energy. What sort of energy? [speaker010:] Sun light and. [Mr H A Redfern:] Light. Katrina. [Mrs Trinder:] Warmth. [Mr H A Redfern:] And warmth and without those we can't live. Light and warmth. Without the light plants couldn't live and without plants we couldn't live. Do you think we could live on another of the planets then? What's the one nearest the sun can anyone remember? Stacey. [Chris:] Mercury. [Mr H A Redfern:] Mercury. What would it mean being nearer the sun? What would it mean about that planet compared with earth? [speaker010:] We wouldn't be able to live. [Mr H A Redfern:] Why? [speaker010:] It would be too hot. [Mr H A Redfern:] Oh lovely and warm a nice sun tan. No? [speaker010:] . [Mr H A Redfern:] Er it's, what are you saying? I mean are we talking it's a lot hotter, too hot. What would happen to us? [speaker010:] We could die. [Mr H A Redfern:] We. All right so we can't go that way it's too hot. What's the next one to Mercury? [speaker010:] Venus. [Mr H A Redfern:] Venus. Venus. That's about the same size as earth you know. Mercury's very small but Venus is is roughly like us. How about that one then. Could we live on Venus?... Do you think? [speaker010:] No. [Mr H A Redfern:] No, why not? [speaker010:] Because we're we're in the exact spot where we've got enough warmth and [Mr H A Redfern:] Exactly. That's a good point. We're here because we're suited to being here. If we sh wanted other conditions we'd live on a different planet or we would have developed on a different plant. We have to be exactly where we are. Earth's just the right place. Let's just see how smart you really are then. You've done Mercury which is nearest before. You've done Venus, what comes next? Er there are some hands that aren't up. Come on what comes next, what's number three? Number three in charts for the last million million years... Michael. [Louise:] Mars. [Mr H A Redfern:] You've missed one out. Oh sit down. You're life doesn't depend on being asked to answer this question because you know the answer. Oh I'm going to ask somebody who hasn't got their hand up. Kendal. [Jennifer:] Earth. [Mr H A Redfern:] Earth exactly. Right Mercury, what comes next I've forgotten? [Louise:] Erm mars. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Steven. [Steven:] Venus. [Mr H A Redfern:] Venus. This is? Come on Jenny. [Phillip:] Earth. [Mr H A Redfern:] Earth. Now Michael. [Louise:] Mars. [Mr H A Redfern:] Mars and we don't know any moons do we? [speaker010:] Yes. [Mr H A Redfern:] Er d'ya mind, I'm the teacher. If I say you don't know you don't know. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] You don't know, Lee. You don't know what comes next, you don't. What is it? Jupiter. Is it? [speaker010:] Yeah. We wrote it down in our book last week. [Mr H A Redfern:] All right. Erm what comes after Jupiter then? Look at them all looking through their books for goodness sake. Lee. Saturn. Saturn. What comes after Saturn. [speaker010:] Uranus. [Mr H A Redfern:] Uranus. [speaker010:] Neptune. [Mr H A Redfern:] Neptune. [speaker010:] Pluto. [Mr H A Redfern:] Pluto. That's fairly straight forward then. [speaker010:] Yes Mr. [Mr H A Redfern:] Yes Mr. Kieran says we're on earth we belong here this is the perfect place for us. Jennifer how far are we from the sun? [Jennifer:] One hundred and fifty million kimome [Mr H A Redfern:] Kimometres. Kimometres Kilometres. Yes and I'm gonna give you this sheet which... it's to save time for drawing it. This is where you now need to concentrate. What we've done so far is dead easy.... Because it's not as simple as it looks on this sheet. What's at the centre of our universe? Not our universe our solar system sorry. Kieran. [speaker010:] The sun. [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun. Our sun our star. Is there somebody sit there going [sigh]? [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Think, does it? [speaker010:] No. [Mr H A Redfern:] No it doesn't. What does the sun do? [speaker010:] Gives us light and. [Mr H A Redfern:] It does but that's because it's like a huge atom bomb flowing hydrogen all the time.... It moves around in space, it's moving all the time. All those stars are moving. Not quickly as far as we can see. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Don't get upset you're not going to disappear one night. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] All right concentrate. The sun is moving, it's also turning, spinning, like a ball spinning on your finger. What are the planets doing? [speaker010:] Revolving. [Mr H A Redfern:] They are spin not all of them. Not all of them. Now that's a little thing you might want to check if you've got an atlas at home. Some of them don't revolve don't spin in their axis. Earth does. What else are they doing, apart from those that spin? Yes. [speaker010:] Moving. [Mr H A Redfern:] Moving. And they're moving around the sun. What do we call the path that they follow?... When something's going round something else, do you know the word? [speaker010:] Oh no. [Mr H A Redfern:] Try it. [speaker010:] Solar. [Mr H A Redfern:] No that's that's to do with the sun. That's what we talked about last time yes. But if you know it. What about space craft? Space craft goes up and when it gets to a certain height above the earth it just goes round and round and round. What do we say it's doing, what what is it in? Come on star trek, when he parks his star ship what does he say? We're in? [speaker010:] Space. [Mr H A Redfern:] Well yes you're in space. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Pardon? Well hardly ever our watch. [speaker010:] Orbit. [Mr H A Redfern:] Orbit. They're in orbit. Orbit means you go round and round and round and round and round. Because you're held there by all these planets and stars pulling at you. And that's what holds these planets. The sun has its own gravity. Do you remember me mentioning that? And it's trying to pull the planets in, Lee, but other stars are pulling them and stopping them falling into the sun. All different distances away from the sun and there's Jennifer's a hundred and fifty million millimetres. All going round in, what's the word again? [speaker010:] Orbit. [Mr H A Redfern:] Orbit. In fact this a this isn't quite accurate. Because the orbit isn't round isn't a circle, it's an ellipse, it's more like that. All right? And while you've got the planet orbiting the sun there are things that orbit the plant. What d'ya call something that goes round and round a planet? Think you've all seen them. At least one regularly. When you look at night you see? Lee. Stars. But they're not ones that are orbiting the planet. Katrina. [Mrs Trinder:] Moon. [Mr H A Redfern:] Moon. Moon orbit the planet. Here it tells you how many moons each planet's got. Earth has one you know that. Jupiter which is a huge planet, if you look carefully here this is a this is to scale, this shows you the size of the planet. So this size of Jupiter compared with earth. You see, there's Venus which is about the same size, Mercury's a small one, Saturn is huge, Uranus, Neptune they're big ones and Pluto's another one about the same size as earth. So that's not quite accurate either. This is just to give you the order and the distance. And Jupiter has twelve moons. Some of the moons of Jupiter are enormous. These are all orbiting Jupiter as Jupiter orbits the sun. Right. Would you give one of those out. We we won't do anything with it yet. We need now to open our books. Rule off from where you were before I want you to get some information down about our solar system. More or less what we've just talked about.... Because it's still only the second week with me I think get the information down and we'll do what we did last week. Do you remember what we did last week? We did it all together. And by the way I'm very pleased to see that some of you actually wrote it completely in your own words didn't you. Either that or I can't read your writing properly. That's very good. As you get the facts right. We finished off with giving a list of the planets haven't we? We've talked about the sun a little bit, we just have done. We started to talk about the solar system. How far have we got on the solar system Josephine? Naming the planets? [Jody:] Mm. [Mr H A Redfern:] We need to do a bit about the sun spinning and moving through space don't we? We've not got that down have we. So put today's date.... What happened to the one that you had did you give it back in? Have you got a ruler?... So can somebody give me a sentence that explains what we talked about the sun isn't staying still it's, all right Kieran. [speaker010:] The sun's in the middle of the galaxy that [Mr H A Redfern:] Well it's you can't say in the middle of the galaxy, it's only in the middle of the galaxy as we look at it. Er let's be absolutely scientific. Erm all we need to say is the sun isn't still, what can we say. Go on Louise. [Louise:] Is it moving? [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun moves through space yes. And while it's moving through space what is it doing, what did we say. Steven. [Steven:] Is erm it spins. [Mr H A Redfern:] Spins good. What shall we say spins or rotates. I think spins is best. Quick the sun. So what did we say. Louise said you said that you said? [Louise:] It's moving. [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun moves through space... and Steven we decided on spins. Spins. Just to make sure that erm just to make sure that we don't think it's just spinning wherever it feels like spinning, it's spinning on its axis isn't it. D'ya know what the axis is? Erm imaginary line that goes down through the middle of a ball, yes, through there Jupiter. No apostrophe on its. No this is an apostrophe free zone for now. Next er thing we need to describe is that planets move round the sun don't we? How can we say that?... Go on then. [speaker010:] The planets all nine planets all move round [Mr H A Redfern:] Well let's not say all nine planets for all we know they'll discover a new one tomorrow. Have to say the planets and don't forget we've got to think about other solar systems as well so we're not let's not limit us to to the number, the planets why not. Yes. Go on. [speaker010:] The planets orbit around the sun. [Mr H A Redfern:] Everybody happy with the word orbit? Do you understand that? Kieran suggest we say, instead of saying the planets move round in orbit we should say the planets orbit the sun. Yes? Suits me. Saves chore.... It's essential that we... we understand this orbiting bit because that makes it makes the seasons which we're going to go on to do. But I'm sure you know all about them anyway.... Right. What else did we talk about and we need to know, we haven't got down yet. We talked about the sun moving, we've got that, spins, planets orbit the sun. What else might might there be out there in space? Think about what you've seen. [Louise:] Jupiter's got twelve sun moons. [Mr H A Redfern:] Twelve moons. The moons that's what we need. Need something else first. Said the sun spins, do all the planets spin? [speaker010:] Er no. [Mr H A Redfern:] No. Can we check that? I'm thinking of one in particular that wants checking. There's one that's very hot one side and extremely cold the other. So some of the planets spin. Is there anybody that can look into that for us for next week? Oh Jamie's not here is he? Then we've got Louise's point about moons. The moons orbit what? [speaker010:] erm the planets. [Mr H A Redfern:] The planet. Do all the planets have moons? [speaker010:] No. [Mr H A Redfern:] No. So that's some planets... haven't... why not? That's a surprise Jeremy. Some planets have moons.... And that's on that sheet that you've got.... There are quite a lot of other bits and bobs floating about, asteroids, meteors, little bits of chunks flying all over the place. Now can we think of a famous thing that sometimes appears in space? [speaker010:] Halley's comet. [Mr H A Redfern:] Halley's comet which is er a big lump of rock that flies around in its own orbit. It's not part of our solar system it just is it every sev how many years is it every seventy six or something? It's not that long with Halley's comet because you don't see it very very well sometimes. [speaker010:] I think it's. [Mr H A Redfern:] I can't remember that's something else you need to check. Erm it's quite regular I know, but some years you just can't see it very well. Erm and there are loads of other ones some only come every few hundred years. And they just travel through the the galaxy on a huge orbit, yes? [speaker010:] Is the thing what happens in America where? [Mr H A Redfern:] Mud? [speaker010:] Like something to do with mud like comes from America. [Mr H A Redfern:] What to do with space? [speaker010:] Yes.... [Mr H A Redfern:] You're not thinking of er like er a meteorite are you? [speaker010:] Yeah. [Mr H A Redfern:] A meteor yes, yes I know what he means now. A meteor is is something rock floating through space. When it comes into our atmosphere it's called a meteorite and most of them burn off as they come through the atmosphere. Some of them and yet you get huge damage. [speaker010:] Like there's all [Mr H A Redfern:] That's it everything knocked down and [speaker010:] And everyone there's like dead deep and deep [Mr H A Redfern:] Cany er crater. Crater. [speaker010:] Everyone drowns. [Mr H A Redfern:] Yes all right, let's not worry about that. Okay.... Let's go on to talk about... I assume you know this. I shall talk through it and if you can get something written... I'll leave you to do a diagram and you may want to staple this into your book staple's easier than gluing this. Glue your pages together then. Erm if you wanted to get time to look at the chart to colour the planets the right colour that's up to you. Day and night. What do you mean by day and night? [speaker010:] Is it what happens? [Mr H A Redfern:] It it usually does yes. Can you explain what is happening? How long is there of day and night? [speaker010:] Twenty four hours. [Mr H A Redfern:] Yes it's actually a day, what we call a day. Twenty four hours. What happens in that twenty four hour period? [speaker010:] switches from day to night. [Mr H A Redfern:] Why, why twenty four hours, what's happening in twenty four hours, Stacey. Sit there looking puzzled. Have to. You either know this or you don't and when when you hear what the answer is you're think, oh yes. [speaker010:] There's the sun going down. [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun doesn't go, er he, think about what you're saying, explain it exactly. [speaker010:] We turn round. [Mr H A Redfern:] We do? [speaker010:] Yes so we orbit [Mr H A Redfern:] You turn round every once every twenty four hour. What do you mean by we? [speaker010:] Earth. [Mr H A Redfern:] The planet turns round once every twenty four hours.... And when you talk about earth as a planet it has a what at the beginning of the name because it's a proper noun. Always... Now it doesn't mean to say every twenty four hours it has to quickly spin round. It takes it twenty four hours to turn round.... Part of the time our side our half of the sphere is facing the sun.... And the rest of the time... when we're facing away from Hello Mrs Lawrence. [Alan:] Hello how are you? Can I borrow some books? [Mr H A Redfern:] Books? [Alan:] And some. Those blue ones that are down there on your. [Mr H A Redfern:] Oh yes of course. Of course yes feel free. [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you. [] Oh thank you. [Mr H A Redfern:] I knew they were there. [Alan:] Yes of course you did.... [Mr H A Redfern:] When we are facing away from the sun... what? When we are facing away from the sun? [speaker010:] It becomes night. [Mr H A Redfern:] Well, it's science, think what's it exactly what you're saying. Once it becomes night what happens? what happens when it's night? Go on. [speaker010:] The sun goes to the other side. [Mr H A Redfern:] The sun doesn't move.. [speaker010:] Erm it doesn't erm [Mr H A Redfern:] Come on Kieran it's got to be exact. [speaker010:] the moon. [Mr H A Redfern:] No not necessarily. Er Kieran I want some action please, please. [speaker010:] Can I borrow this? Is it er when you don't [Mr H A Redfern:] We've got more anyway. [speaker010:] when you don't the sun it's in like a [Mr H A Redfern:] What's the word? [speaker010:] a black shadow. [Mr H A Redfern:] Brilliant, that's fine. When we're facing away from the sun you are in? All together one two three [speaker010:] Shadow. [Mr H A Redfern:] And Kieran we call that shadow? Night. [speaker010:] Night.... [Mr H A Redfern:] Well try and explain it.... Who's nearly finished writing off? Katrina and Kieran out here please. Right, have you here Katrina. Katrina is the sun right? Stand forward a bit otherwise I'm in the way. It's all gone dark, there's an enormous teacher in between and the sun. Kieran is the earth. Kieran is facing, sorry back now. Kieran is facing the sun. Kieran is in light right? Now turn slowly, still day time for Kieran, still day time, still day time, now what's happened? [speaker010:] Afternoon. [Mr H A Redfern:] What's happened? Stand still now Kieran. Steven? [Steven:] It's going round so it's turning to night. [Mr H A Redfern:] He's in night, this side of him is in day. Keep turning. Keep turning. Long night. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] [yawn]. Wakey wakey Kieran daytime. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] All right don't don't build your parcel. Now of course all the time [bell ring] [speaker010:] Ah [drawn out] [Mr H A Redfern:] Ooh what you, you and me, one of these days, one of us is going to crack up. [LAUGHTER] It's not going to be is it Jennifer? Of course all the time Katrina's spinning round as well. But it doesn't matter as far as we're concerned because one side of Katrina is just as bright as the other side. Yes? All right. At the same time Kieran is moving as he's spinning he's moving round. Now if we had we could do this with all nine planets. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] All right. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] You've passed the audition. We need to do a diagram for that. Does everybody understand that? Say so if you don't. Because it starts to get a bit more complicated now. Right thank you you two sit down. And how might we draw that? Right. We need a planet first.... No they're third. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] No that third actually. Is that Jupiter? Look at it. I just drew those on purpose because you small children don't understand. You always said, you always said Mark but you do don't you? Because it's not scientific, you don't want that on there do you? [speaker010:] Well it looks like an arrow's gone through it so I don't think it would work. [Mr H A Redfern:] All right let him do it. All right all right I can take cri I can take criticism. I won't get [crying] upset []. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Doesn't matter. All right don't don't criticize me for this not being an accurate map. I haven't got time to draw the world out properly.... That for you information is sea. Er shh, we'll do it with cos there's more sea over there and I'm going to have to draw some plans. Now there's a bit of America, whoops. [noise of dropping something] [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] This is a nasty earthquake on the west coast of America east coast of America. Right, bit of land in the middle, doesn't really matter. Could be any planet, right. And the sun... [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Yes it's not scientific. Shh. It's not scientific but I felt like it. That's the sun. The sun rays are shooting off into space... you know that light travels in straight lines, yes? Take my words for it. Here, I'll have to draw that line on again anyway, is daylight. It's important to understand that the earth is actually tilted slightly. Right? That's all right with you? Oh fine. Let's... right?... That shh, waste of time. The sun's shining Katrina it's shining. The light is travelling at, it's hitting the earth. is it in day or night? [speaker010:] Day. [Mr H A Redfern:] Day. Why day or night? [speaker010:] Night. [Mr H A Redfern:] Just just just a minute this is a frightening new concept. Is that part in sunlight or not? Yes. Z day or night? Josephine. [Jody:] Day. [Mr H A Redfern:] Day. A is it day or night? Luke. [Steven:] Night. [Mr H A Redfern:] It's night because it's shaded. It's on the shaded side. Right. Have you all finished that board? [speaker010:] Yes.... [Mr H A Redfern:] Now we said that the earth rotates once in how many hours? [speaker010:] Twenty four. [Mr H A Redfern:] Twenty four. So in twenty four hours it will be exactly as it is now having gone all the way round, yes? Can anybody tell me how long it will be until A is on this side and is on that side? No. It will be exactly the same place, it will have gone all the way round, right? Lewis. [speaker010:] It will be twelve hours. [Mr H A Redfern:] Twelve hours good lad, house point. Oh you're in Sherwood aren't you? [speaker010:] Yeah. [Mr H A Redfern:] What a good idea. [LAUGHTER] Erm in twelve hours it will be half way round, so the position will be reversed. I feel a diagram coming on. Oh my class makes a groan when I say that. Right. diagram. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] The tilt's still the same way. If it's rotating round like you want me to draw. It's like it's like one of those old films isn't it. [mimicking] Twelve hours later. [] [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] Is that the north pole and the south pole sticking out of the earth? [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] You counting on surviving this lesson? Kieran, a word of advice. Just because I'm critic doesn't mean to say I'm. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mr H A Redfern:] Any more from you madam and you're out here drawing X Y Z. Right concentrate now. Shh.... Nearly had yellow sea then. There's the water again. There's a bit of land. Right. Now... Where will A be? Someone come and point to it. [speaker010:] On the other side of the magpie. [Mr H A Redfern:] Direct me. [speaker010:] Straight line down. [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Down. [speaker010:] This way. [Mr H A Redfern:] Which way? Towards you or me? [speaker010:] This way, up a bit, across a bit this way, down, that's it. [Mr H A Redfern:] Here, A. Good. Shh. X Y Z. Stacey direct me. Quietly. Help me here, this way or that way, right or left? Louise? [Louise:] Left. [speaker010:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr H A Redfern:] Right. [speaker010:] Down. [Mr H A Redfern:] Down. [speaker010:] There. [Mr H A Redfern:] X Y Z. Right. The sun's still over here. Honestly think, it's rotated it's face is on the other side. [speaker010:] It looks like it [Mr H A Redfern:] Shh. Now is A in daylight or night, Phillip? [Phillip:] Day. [Mr H A Redfern:] Day. What about X Y and Z? [Phillip:] Night. [Mr H A Redfern:] Night. I want you to do a diagram like this. Mm.... And then we've got twelve hours later, half a day, turned round half way.... Right can I ask you to pay attention to a couple of things when you do this diagram. Firstly, I'm sure we've got the earth on a tilt. Won't particularly matter with what we're doing now but it will do when we go on to seasons. Very important that the pole is pointing top and bottom. You don't have to do it perfectly round because the earth isn't perfectly round. You don't have to draw the continent and oceans exactly as they are because it's a diagram. What you do have to be is neat, your labelling is in pen, your drawing is in? [speaker010:] Pencil. [Mr H A Redfern:] Pencil. You have about twenty minutes, listen, to do this in your own way. I should get, how many of you are there today? Twenty four? Only Jenny away? [speaker010:] Laura. [Mr H A Redfern:] Oh Laura's away and Paul yes. I should get twenty two different diagrams. When you've done that I want you to look at this. If you want to colour the planets, don't all go and stand round that picture, go and have a look come back and colour them. You need crayons, there are some crayons in there, cupboard. If you were away last week can you please leave space to catch up with the writing which you will do in your own time. All right. Does anybody have a problem with what they've got to do before we start put your hand up if you don't know what to do. Luke a problem? I hope you're not talking to me like that. [Steven:] Please may I borrow a rubber sir. [Mr H A Redfern:] Already? Why don't you ask for a rubber when you make a mistake. You haven't made a mistake yet? You'll be writing in pen though. You haven't been told to start yet, see you in a minute all right? Yes? Everyone know what to do? [speaker010:] Yes sir. [Mr H A Redfern:] I don't mind you talking to the person next to you but keep the noise down please. I want this work this week to be as good if not better than the work you did for me last week. Which I'm very pleased with, very impressed. Yes James? Yes they're erm... don't forget your title, the title for your diagrams as well, day and night the same title will do, in pen underlined. Come on then Luke. You want a rubber don't you?... Can I just erm, carry on working but just look this way a minute please. Have you seen have you seen this? Beautiful work. Well done. I've not graded your work I will give you A Bs and Cs next time. Yes keep working while I just explain that if you've not had it before. Erm Luke put your hand up and wait to be asked to speak please. Yes Luke? Yes you have to to explain what's happening. If you want to do some writing with it to explain earth rotates half way in twelve hours that's up to you. Yes. Yes we've just said. [speaker010:] When you draw can you put that up? [Mr H A Redfern:] Of course you can. Yes. There's a tin full of counters you can use.

[P Lynch:] Right. Now when I spoke to Mrs on the telephone last night she told me about the work you've been doing on and I have looked at it and I'm going to go over it again with you this afternoon because she thought it was very very good work. And she's marked it and I'm going to give it back to you and talk to you about it. I was very very pleased to see that a lot of you have tried to do your join up handwriting after a bit of practice we'd had and it had come out really really nicely, well done. Josephine your work was on the top and I thought goodness that can't be Josephine's writing. It was very nice wasn't it? So good girl. And some of the others I still have to look at. So I want to look at them at dinner time and share them with you this afternoon. But because Mrs did that work with you yesterday you did not do your history work, so I'm going to talk to you a bit and ask you some questions about the tiny bit we talked about to do with Roman Britain and how the Romans invaded Britain two thousand years ago. So... sorry just a moment. [talk in background] If you could pop into five A, yes I would prefer to see music's doing do you know what I mean?... Just sit down and and sit still for a minute because you'll be standing for a long time playing the recorder as well, if you want if you want to go to the toilet just take yourself all right. Seems to be something else going on. Let's go back to the invasion of Britain two thousand years ago. But it was less than two thousand years ago in actual fact that the first emperor Julius Caesar into Great Britain wasn't it? Can you remember how we talked about the Romans having a very strong army and how they captured land around Rome around it's lake and before long they'd captured land all around the Mediterranean Sea and they formed that into what we call the Roman Empire. And Julius Caesar stood in France in because he was in, the place he captured in France, and he could see Britain across the water and he wondered what the land was like over there. And he came over with. Er let's see if you can remember the year that was. It was after Jesus was born so we call that B C, no sorry it wasn't after it was before Jesus was born we call it B C before Christ. It was about two thousand years ago and it was how many years before Christ. Jody perhaps you could like would like to think, if you want us to listen to your playing this afternoon I would like you to listen to what I have to say this morning please. Can you tell us? Can you tell us? On the top of this sheet it told you. Kieran. [Kieran:] Fifty five. [P Lynch:] Good it was fifty five B C. Fifty five years before Jesus was born. And you know we've had bible stories just before Christmas we know about the Romans being there in in erm Greece and Rome and all around that area at that time. Because when Jesus was born the the Roman soldiers were there and the kind at that time Herod ordered that all babies were killed and the Romans went out to do that didn't they? All babies born You tell us Kieran sorry? [Kieran:] He killed the and heard that Jesus was born and he would be made king so he sent his men to go out and find every baby that was under two or three years old and kill them. [P Lynch:] Can you speak up when you're telling us. [Kieran:] And erm Joseph and Mary they went to Egypt or somewhere, yeah Egypt, and when they went erm and I think the angels called them to go cos they came to Egypt as well and then they went to. [P Lynch:] Going to Bethlehem to get taxed didn't they? So we do know and we we do remember reading about bi er Romans in the bible at that time. Yes Daisy? [Daisy:] Can I go the toilet? [P Lynch:] If you're very quick because you might miss out on what we're going to talk about. [unclear background conversation] Was there anybody in here... who plays a recorder and has some knowledge already of music and would be interested trying for the violin? I mean not just trying but if you if you get chosen to play the violin it means practising and practising and staying with it so that you become a good violin player. [unclear background conversation] I think I'll do that for you Mr. [speaker004:] Shh. [P Lynch:] Excuse me. Okay put your hands down again. Shh. Stacey we were just talking I've interrupted this talk on the Romans. Talk about or Mr has, er to to ask about anybody interested in violins playing. And I know you enjoy playing music. Er put your hands down for the moment. I'll I promised Mr a list but I've had a very busy week and haven't done him a list this week and I have promised and I've broken a promise. So I'm going to promise and you've got to remind me about this promise that the next Tuesday, that's when you're or even Wednesday, but if I give it you Tuesday we can be organized for Wednesday can't we? The the next Tuesday I'll give him a list of people who are interested and that means asking at home as well. Because it's no good saying you're interested and then going to ask your mother or father if you could talk a violin home and they said no I don't want you practising at home I don't like the sound of it or whatever. But sometimes mum and dads don't like you practising, so you need you need to ask and if you are chosen you need to commit yourself. That means turn up to all the practices and stick with it and join the orchestra and play in concerts as you get better all right? So it is a commitment it's not just for, oh I'd like to have a go. If you want to have a go I could bring my violin in and you can have a go at my violin any time. That's a different thing isn't it? Having a go and sticking with it? You may like you may have a try and find that you don't particularly en er like like it after all. But if I give some names to Mr next week I think yes well I've got them at the music later today so I can ask them then. Okay then sorry I hadn't. Right. Yes yes. Let's stop talking, sorry about the interruptions. So fifty five years before Jesus was born the Romans were already he was born I think but they had not come as far as Britain. Who was the who was the emperor at the time who decided to send soldiers and the army to Britain? Jennifer. [Jennifer:] Was it Julius Caesar? [P Lynch:] It was. It was Julius Caesar he was a very famous Roman Emperor and a famous English writer called Shakespeare wrote a story about Julius Caesar. Right he sent only a very small army and when they arrived on the shores. Let's talk about first of all the boat that they went in. How did they get across the water? Wasn't? You don't think it was. What do you think Kieran? [Kieran:] Erm they went on a ship that looked a little bit like dry bean. [P Lynch:] Yes. [Kieran:] They had rows on the bottom all the and some of the men on the top. [P Lynch:] Right a trireme a Greek warship had three layers didn't it? And I I do believe that the Roman boats had two. They had the deck on the top where all the Roman soldiers stood in their uniform, I say their uniform I mean their armour don't I? Er and all their fighting gear and we're we're going to have a look at a Roman legionnaire. That was their name a legionnaire because they belonged to a legion of erm the Roman army. Er and we'll have a look at all the things that they carried and erm fought with later on. But they had all their equipment with them and they just stood on the deck and underneath below deck were the people who rowed the boats over. Who were they? Yes? [speaker004:] The slaves. [P Lynch:] The slaves yes they had slaves to row. And when they arrived Great Britain or Britain as it was called then and the people living there were Britons. Also Celts. And when they arrived some of the Celtic tribes were standing on the shore and they were very very fierce, bright red hair some of them had and beards. I think a lot of these Roman people had never seen red hair before, people who looked quite so fierce. And even though they were supposed to be the biggest and gravest army in the world they were frightened to get off the... So what, who was the first person who stepped on land? See if you can remember because we did we did talk to you a very short time about this on Monday. Now let's have somebody else different because I I know there's been listening hard obviously. Katrina? Yes that that's right it had a special name. The person who held the well what was he called?... Standard bearer. Do you remember he was called the standard bearer. See if I can find you a picture of a of a, I've got a picture of a Roman legionnaire here but not the standard bearer. Standard bearer's like a pole it was a pole they held, that's what the Roman soldiers look like look the Roman legionnaires and the standard bearer had a pole with shields on it. And he stepped forward first. Now once he'd stepped forward on to the on to the shore what happened? They, what's the word you want? [speaker004:] Stepped on [P Lynch:] They followed didn't they. They followed. Phillip. [Phillip:] His tooth's fell out. [P Lynch:] Do you need to wash your mouth out Adam? [Adam:] Yes. [P Lynch:] Go on then quickly. We're having a a lose a tooth week I think. Erm right so it was it was supposed to be a disgrace to lose your standard in your legion in the Roman army. So there was way they were going to let the standard bearer go on his own and face all these fierce fighters. They had to go and give him some support and they put up quite a good fight. They didn't have enough people with them, they didn't have a big enough army. So they decided to retreat. What does retreat mean? What does retreat mean? Do you do you know Phillip? [Phillip:] Does it mean go back? [P Lynch:] Go back that's right good. So they got back on their boats and they went back. They went back to France which was already part of the Roman Empire. Perhaps back to Rome where they'd come from to see their families. [knocking] [speaker004:] Can we have dental inspection please. Yes. [P Lynch:] Is it is it absolutely necessary? [speaker004:] Mrs has already asked for her class to be after one and we've only got the two classes to do. [P Lynch:] Erm right erm Jennifer. I tell you what we could do cos Mr might have to stay. Jennifer could you ask Mr if he could just pop in and see me a minute. You can turn the tape off and we can carry on this [speaker004:] Oh wait a minute. [P Lynch:] She seems to be [speaker004:] Oh erm [P Lynch:] You can carry on this afternoon. You've got me first two lessons after dinner haven't you? So that would be all right I think. Let me just have a word with [speaker004:] I was going to say can we take them in small groups? Is that any help? [P Lynch:] Not really cos it's a sort of discussion with the whole class so I need the sort of feed back [speaker004:] Oh. [P Lynch:] Okay? Have all the other classes been looked at? [speaker004:] Yes. [P Lynch:] They have to go for a dental inspection [Mr Rose:] That's all. [P Lynch:] And we're the only ones that haven't been. We do have a double lesson after dinner which we could continue this. [Mr Rose:] That's perfectly okay. [P Lynch:] If that's all right with you. [Mr Rose:] Yes. [P Lynch:] Okay. Right then could you g you want all of them. [Mr Rose:] We want the girls first in registration order or alphabetical order. [P Lynch:] Well I'll tell you what we'll do then because we don't want to sit here, just a moment, before you go, don't start talking. I would like the boys to go and get out their topic folders and colour the map that shows all the things that the Romans are hoping to find in Great Britain. That's a simple task you can do while the girls are at the dentist. And when the girls come back they can do that while you go to the dentist. And girls I don't know whether you know your order in the registers. If you can work it out and stand at at the door and I'll get the register to check.

[speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] probably are aware of in any event is that there is a facility for sandwiches laid on and I I think you've all been told about it. Er if you want to take er use of that facility then if you haven't done so you'd better do so fairly quickly. Now I today we are going to look at er I five and I twelve which deal with employment land allocations [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] office space and services. The matters for discussion are s spelt out but just so that you're under no illusions to what we are aiming to talk about, first issue, first matter is is the proposed provision and distribution of employment land for district councils and Greater York, the reason bearing in mind the need to provide sufficient land for employment in appropriate locations and the second matter is what effect if any will the proposed scale on provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. But we'll start quite logically with the first matter. I would ask Mr Williamson, I presume you you're leading for the County Council today to er take us through I five and I twelve. Mr Williamson. [Mr Ken Williamson:] Thank you Chair. Could I just say before I start, I apologize in advance while I'm on the air if there there are any inadvertent s coughs and [LAUGHTER] little bit of a cold don't want to deafen anybody while er the volume was up. Gentlemen, er Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. In establishing its parameters for employment land provision of county in its eight constituent districts, the County Council's intention has been to sustain and improve the economic wellbeing of the county by ensuring that continuous supply and a wide choice of sites can be made available. The aim has been to ensure as far as possible employment opportunities are not lost or unduly constrained simply because there is a shortage of suitable sites. Such an approach is in the County Council's view, entirely consistent with government policy [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Ken Williamson:] as set out in Planning Policy Guidance Notes, particularly in P P Gs four and twelve. Forecasting employment land requirements over a period of fifteen years is of course a difficult exercise at any time. The current exercise has been no exception and the task has not been made any easier by the current level of economic uncertainty and its implications for the future size and structure of employment and unemployment at the end of the plan period. In the circumstances, the County Council has sought to provide district councils with as much flexibility as possible in allocating sufficient land and to ensure that local plan preparation is not unduly constrained by an unrealistically low. Formulating these proposals, the County Council's avoided placing undue reliance on a purely technical approach to forecasting future land requirements. Such an approach is considered to be increasingly unreliable and subject to significant variations depending upon the assumptions made. The County Council's has op has opted instead to base its proposals on a wider ranging assessment which, while not discounting economic activity based projections, gives greater weight to levels and rates of land take-up, as well as knowledge of the structure and strengths and weaknesses of the local economy. The County Council believes this approach represents the most appropriate way forward in assessing long term employment land requirements. It provides district councils with a generous allocation, but not so generous in the County Council's view as to prejudice the counc the county's interests and by sterilizing land which is unlikely to be taken up or by promoting without due regard to the consequences for housing and services. Nor does the County Council believe that it will have any noticeable effect on the objectives of the adjoining authority in West Yorkshire. has the full support of six of the eight North Yorkshire district councils. Five districts Craven, Hambleton, Ryedale, Scarborough and York, the approach is sections of the local community including significantly the industrial and commercial organizations in these areas. Certainly representations have been made er which express any disagreement with the proposals in in those areas. In Richmondshire there are differences between the County Council and the District Council on the appropriate scale of employment provision amounting to about ten hectares. In Harrogate District two opposing views have been expressed, Harrogate Civic Society seeking a reduction in the allocation by at least we think of er something in the order of ten hectares, David Lock and Associates expressing the view that at least a hundred, a hundred plus a hectares should be allocated. The County Council does not however believe there is a justifiable case for moving towards any of the different positions sought by these objectors. As far as the Greater York area is concerned, objections have been lodged by Leeds City Council and by Montague Evans on behalf of a group of parish councils in Selby District adjoining York. Both consider the proposed scale of allocations to be excessive. The County Council not unexpectedly er does not agree with either submission. The allocation to Greater York has in fact been derived by extensive joint working between the County Council and the five Greater York districts. The Greater York authorities are satisfied that a hundred and forty five hectares represents an appropriate overall land allocation for the area in the context of its sub- regional importance as an employment centre, a need for greater flexibility in terms of providing land for new industrial and commercial uses, the relocation requirements of existing firms, the amount of land already committed and the opportunities for employment related development identified through the Greater York study. In respect of the proposals for Selby District, the County Council recognizes that the district has a particularly narrow economic base. It is very heavily dependent on jobs in the primary sectors, agriculture, coal mining and power generation, all of which are currently undergoing significant and extensive structural changes and rationalization. This has undoubtedly experienced si significant rise in unemployment. Nevertheless, the County Council believes it has gone as far as its possibly can to recognize and respond to the district's problems, and that it cannot justify moving any closer in reducing the gap between the recommended allocation of a hundred and thirty two hectares and the two hundred to two hundred and fifty hectares which are requested the District Council. Other objectors to the County Council's proposals, namely Leeds Council, Montague Evans and J C Cunnane, believe that they already represent a bridge and indeed several bridges too far. At this juncture Chairman er it is I think worth reemphasizing that the County Council is progressing a further selective alteration to the structure plan, not a fundamental review of the strategic approach or indeed the policies which give effect to it. I think it's necessary to stress this since a number of representations have referred specifically to the constraints which the locational strategy embodied in policy I five on the ability to deliver the proposed structure plan on employment land allocation. It shows to some extent the City was tied up with the erm issue of whether or not the structure plan should include a major exception to or indeed a strategic exception to policy. This of course is er scheduled to be discussed in the context of policy two erm the proposed open countryside policy tomorrow. It is however I think relevant to the debate on policies I five and I twelve, to the extent that the County Council adjustments to the wording of policy I five which would provide for the distributional strategy and its emphasis on directing development to locations in and adjacent to main urban areas, main towns and small towns, to be modified so as to pe permit major employment allocations to be made elsewhere and indeed on a scale which effectively improved distributional strategy. So to conclude these opening remarks, the County Council believes the level of employment land provision it proposes is necessary to meet the existing and projected employment needs [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Ken Williamson:] and to ensure the local economy is not constrained by a lack of land for employment purposes. Whilst it is accepted that the total provision for the County, erm five hundred and sixteen hectares about twenty five he per cent above the approved plan provision, the County Council considers this is justified on the basis that it provides the most generous level which can be justified on the information which is available and at a time when changes in the distribution of business use are to say at the least unpredictable. The County Council therefore Chairman recommends its employment land proposal to the panel. Can I say Chairman that erm my colleague erm Mr Potter i is our technical resident technical expert and er I'm sure he'll be happy to er to take on board any of the particular queries on the methodology that's been adopted. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Williamson, were you proposing to briefly outline the methodology or w shall we take it as read? [Mr Ken Williamson:] Well er I wasn't Chairman, er Mr Potter I think is [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Ken Williamson:] quite prepared to do that, erm. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] to be raised in in by various participants during the course of the discussion. The other point I have is N Y ten, can you tell me what erm we make of that one? I presume everybody's got this N Y ten.... Yes, yes. [Mr David Potter:] The er [Mr E Barnett:] Introduce yourself. [Mr David Potter:] Sorry er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. The original calculations which are outlined in er N Y six are based on assumptions which were available at the time which were based on the eighty one census essentially, those calculations form the basis of the consultation plan and the deposit plan. At the time the committee considered representations of the deposit plan, we had available to us revised projections based on the ninety one census, also information available from the ninety nine planning census of employment and based on a number of er representations made to me formally and informally, I revised the assumptions to er incorporate ninety one census data and to in fact stretch the assumptions er in terms of their general. The indications of that er in terms of the figures affect only one district, significantly Selby. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr David Potter:] And so that, the charts you have in front of you represent the justification of all the changes to Selby's figures. Erm if I can add at this time there is in fact an error on the final table on that er [Mr E Barnett:] Table [Mr David Potter:] Table nine. [Mr E Barnett:] Table nine. [Mr David Potter:] Where the Greater York splits is incorrect. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr David Potter:] It w the purpose of table nine is to try and determine the rest of district allocation. That rest of district allocation's correct. The Greater York element unfortunately is not. The formula in table eight was not carried forward into table nine. I have a revised version which will cancel. [Mr E Barnett:] Well can you give us the figures now? [Mr David Potter:] Certainly [Mr E Barnett:] information.... Is that the only correction to be made to table nine? [Mr David Potter:] That is the only correction I wish to submit to table nine yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr David Potter:] Then I think er it may come up later, Mr Cunnane has identified er an error in the Selby figure, erm but I I don't wish to change that because that was the the figure that was considered as one. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can you tell us what the revisions would be? [Mr David Potter:] The revisions [speaker001:] it was correct. I understand [Mr David Potter:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that this Yes. Yes. Yes. [Mr David Potter:] Right, bear with me a moment.... The terms of the table nine you have before you er as far as Harrogate is concerned, instead of one point zero three, it should be two point one seven.... The Ryedale figure should be amended from twelve point zero four to sixteen point three two.... The Selby figure should be amended from thirteen point three to fourteen point two six... and the York figure from sixty one point six to ninety six point eight eight... and the Greater York figure from eighty seven point three to one two seven point six two.... changes on the other t table which has er worked out at thirty four per hectare. [speaker001:] Yes. [Mr David Potter:] is amended from one point three for Harrogate to two point seven four.... From fifteen point two three to twenty point six three [speaker001:] That's for Ryedale. [Mr David Potter:] Sorry yes for for Ryedale. [speaker001:] Could you repeat the figure again? [Mr David Potter:] From Ryedale it's from fifteen point two three to twenty point six three.... From Selby from fifteen point eight six to sixteen point nine one.... And from York, it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. [speaker001:] One two two point nine three? [Mr David Potter:] Sorry a hundred sorry a hundred and sixty one point, from from York it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. [speaker001:] Fine. [Mr David Potter:] And from Greater York it's from a hundred and ten point four one to a hundred and sixty one point four one.... They don't affect the policies because the [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] split was never carried forward into the policy we simply [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] adopted the Greater York study findings. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can you tell [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] very briefly please why the Ryedale figures don't change in the same as, and the Selby figures, don't change in the same sort of way as the figures for other districts? [speaker001:] [cough] [clears throat] [Mr David Potter:] Erm clarify? [Miss D Whittaker:] For example, in the first column, Greater York figure is more or less doubled. [Mr David Potter:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] Harrogate figure has more or less doubled, Selby is slightly increased, Ryedale is slightly increased. [Mr David Potter:] It's to do with the way the er the totals are calculated in table eight, erm the split is divided in totals of the proportion of Greater York and the rest of the district. In different proportions. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you just want to touch on I twelve as well Mr Williamson, before we in a general discussion? [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Ken Williamson:] Thank you Chairman er Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm I think er we are er as happy with I twelve provisions having [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Ken Williamson:] in that policy as we are with I five. Erm again I think the general feeling is that taken together [speaker001:] can can you move the microphone Thank you nice to hear what he says, thank you th that would help. I think you need to. [Mr Ken Williamson:] Yeah. Thank you Chairman I I think er as far as I twelve's concerned the County Council's er reasonably happy with that er er policy as it stands, and I think most people erm not all but but certainly the majority of people who er commented on that, commented in a sort of an affirmative way, erm again the provisions of the policy as they are hopefully reworded will er promote the same sort of flexibility and generosity that erm policy I five. [Miss D Whittaker:] Do you regard provision in accord with point one as being part of the provision provided for N I five? [Mr Ken Williamson:] No Chairman, we we don't. [Miss D Whittaker:] So it is addition. [Mr Ken Williamson:] It will be a separate er wh whatever. I mean the the policy as proposed er doesn't have any any particular figures er specific parameters in it. they are [Miss D Whittaker:] No I appreciate that but [Mr Ken Williamson:] they are additional to the provisions of I five. [Miss D Whittaker:] Is that the interpretation that district councils have put upon I five I twelve I wonder? [Mr E Barnett:] I can't hear a knock. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [knocking] [Mr E Barnett:] Who's going to speak for the districts? Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Yes the districts have been working on the basis that I twelve is an additional provision to I five. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr David Curtis:] Thank you. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for that Mr Williamson. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Well ladies gentlemen, the floor is yours. Who would like to start? Mr Curtis are you Yes thank you. you left your plug out. [Mr David Curtis:] My mistake sir. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. [speaker001:] [whispering] should I make a speech? [] [Mr David Curtis:] Very briefly I would just like to make a statement that er clearly as you'll see from our representations er er on the on the plan submission, the City Council does support the County Council's er approach to employment land provision both for the City of York and for Greater York. Particularly we do accept the the calculations that the County have used, they way in which they've used both economic activity projections and also land-take. And also we think they sensibly looked at the actual provision of sites in areas which have proved popular for employment and which do not compromise environmental objectives. It's very important to recognize that York although a historic city as I mentioned er in the previous discussion, erm is a er is an industrial city with a significant number of employment problems, in particular in the rail engineering industry where we see a rapid er contraction of er what was Brown which is now A B B, clearly continuing problems in the rail industry with the er problems most certainly caused by privatization and also major job reductions in er firms such as Rowntrees and Terrys in the confectionery industry. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Curtis:] The work that we've done on er the economy of the city, based on economic analysis which has been submitted as part of my findings, erm shows quite clearly a continued shift away from manufacturing towards service employment and a continuing need to promote new planned opportunities in locations well suited to the needs of the market. Our estimate is that the city itself needs something in the order of five thousand jobs over the period of the structure plan to er really just to stay still, to run to run to stand still. Therefore the analysis that we've done, which is an economic analysis, actually supports the level of er calculation the County Council have produced for land requirements for the city. Unfortunately as we saw earlier with the housing discussions, we are very much a pint pot as the analogy was used and that a quart just can't be fitted into it. Therefore we accept that the actual provision within the city er will have to be considerably less than the calculated requirement for the city. The only issue that I think we have some er difficulty with in the policy as it stands at the moment, is the uncertainty that arises between the figure provided in policy I five of forty six hectares for the city, and actually our agreed calculation which I think the County Council accept, that site availability in the city is limited to something in the order of thirty three hectares if we exclude er one site which is subject to a dispute between parties er in relation to the greenbelt. But it is included in the deposit plan of the greenbelt by the County Council, that's greenbelt land, so I think bearing in mind what the the panel said the other day, I can accept this discussion that for the time being we assume that is in the greenbelt. And if we exclude that site, the maximum capacity of the city is in the order of thirty three hectares. Clearly the policy does allow for additional provision to be made outside the city in the remainder of Greater York, and that is the basis upon which the the City Council has accepted the a hundred and forty five hectare figure for Greater York. And as you will see from the County Council evidence, the er sites for them have actually been agreed during the Greater York study. So the only point on I five that I would er ask for clarification on really is that the policy be amended to clarify that the actual provision in the city be thre be thirty three hectares [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Curtis:] as I've indicated that is the physical capacity as far as we're concerned. Turning quickly into I twelve. Erm we agree entirely with the County Council's proposal to delete erm job targets or targets from the policy. This does s seem to be in line with with practice nationally at the present time. We will be making provision within our local plan for a number of erm office sites, office sites in and around the City Centre, we have identified those sites erm, I don't wish to go into those but if the panel wish to further information on those I could. But basically they will be something in the order of eighty thousand square metres worth of commercial sites in and around the city centre, on sites which we have agreed are suitable for office use. They tend to be mainly on sites being recycled from existing industrial activities er which are no longer appropriate in the city centre, things like motor traders and that kind of ac activity. So conclude briefly there in that the City Council does support the the broad thrust of the County's two policies here but we would ask for clarification on I five on the actual level of provision we should be providing on our local plan. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr Curtis. Now just to clarify in my mind about, here I'm looking at the summary of your submission, you actually refer to the fact that sixty three hectares are required to meet the needs of the city, whereas I take it you say this morning that you're happy with the forty six, er but in reality you can only get thirty three ac thirty three hectares within the city. Now which which figure are we to talk about? Is it forty six s or sixty three? [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City. Ye Yes in fact obviously with the revised information Mr Potter has, the sixty three seems to have changed anyway now. But erm the forty six is an artificial figure, it represents neither the capacity of the city nor the calculated needs, so I would not wish to er have this figure of forty six in our York plan because it doesn't actually relate to either. [Miss D Whittaker:] The calculated need figure being what? [Mr David Curtis:] The calculated need figure as submitted by the County Council was sixty three hectares [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr David Curtis:] which I was saying I was happy to accept. [Miss D Whittaker:] I note that the approved structure plan contains a similar sort of approach to York, I E its need is greater than its capacity and the policy in the approved plan recognizes that some of the provision will not be in York itself. Has that formed a satisfactory basis for planning?... Mr Curtis. [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. It is difficult to actually say that it has formed a satisfactory basis because in in effect, the amount of land that has come forward in the city has been below the the figure that was allocated in the original structure plan. You'll see from the tables submitted by Mr Potter on past land-take that we've actually provided less than the twenty six hectares even, that's because the opportunities did not arise. Clearly as we discussed earlier in the week, erm the opportunities in the city will be on recycled land. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Curtis:] The reason why we're having to go to a higher figure now is there are two major areas of land, er one is the land behind the railway station, the British Rail land, and the other is the land at a a location called St Nicholas Field, a former household waste site, both of which we are taking steps to bring forward for development. Therefore we believe that during the plan period, those sites are likely to come forward and make a improved contribution to meeting our share of the Greater York employment needs. I would have to say that erm in broad terms, that the existing policy has been acceptable erm in er terms of a planning basis for the city. There is a si a significant difference between the two policies though, in that the wording of the revised policy is much more specific about saying part of our need will be found elsewhere, whereas I five as in the approved structure plan merely makes reference to the fact that all of our requirement will be found in Greater York. You may find that just a subtle difference but I think that in terms of the way erm make allocation in our local plan, that it does cause some confusion. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. Erm my reference was in part to the Secretary of State's notice of approval of the last alteration of the structure plan, where he said he accepted that some of the provision York provision would have to made outside the ci city boundaries. I'm still left wondering whether this sort of statement in policy is in accord with the advice now contained [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] in P P G twelve about the guidance the structure plan should provide to a local planner, and put my cards on the table, wonder whether it wouldn't actually be more to say if York can only provide thirty three hectares, that should be the provision first in York? So as to remove the uncertainty about erm what in effect is a sort of black box floating around perhaps attached to a hot air balloon somewhere over York. [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Erm yes, well I I think that's a perfectly sensible way forward. I'm perfectly happy to accept a figure for York of thirty three hectares. Clearly reference can be made in the to the fact that that is not all of York's requirements but the balance is being found elsewhere within Greater York, and I would be perfectly happy with that. [Miss D Whittaker:] I wonder if Mr Saunders has a view. [Mr Les Saunders:] Les Saunders, D O E. I'm afraid you've stolen all my thunder, erm you've said everything that I wanted [LAUGHTER] to say []. Erm [Miss D Whittaker:] We both read P P Gs. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Les Saunders:] I am aware that the the Secretary for the erm er Secretary of State's approval letter to the area alteration does make reference to erm [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr Les Saunders:] an element of York's provision erm being found outside the district's boundaries. That was the best, at least I understand that was the best the Secretary of State could do at the time. Erm, matters have moved on from than then in terms of the er additional P P G guidance which I think makes it quite clear, as as you've already s said that erm we should be as transparent as possible in our allocations and levels for provision for employment development. Erm so that it would be in our view desirable that the level of provision for York was that which was realistic to er to accommodate, in this case it appears to be thirty three hectares and that the er the a additional element should be located in in or between the other districts in the Greater York area. Erm the this C I P and the panel's consideration en enables them to actually reach a view on that and and hopefully come forward with recommendations. [Miss D Whittaker:] If... does, perhaps I should ask, does the County Council accept that a t more transparent position would be a logical conclusion? [Mr Ken Williamson:] Mr Chairman, Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm I think if we could get there, obviously our our aim er would be to provide er as clearer level of guidance in the policy possible to do. Erm it's interesting, [LAUGHTER] Mr Saunders [] er when he said it it was the best the Secretary of State could do last time round, erm, I wonder why er if he couldn't do it then, it would be really possible er in any way to do it now. Erm we have available erm a a distribution obviously which is based on on sites, er and one could look at that er as a as a way forward erm [Miss D Whittaker:] Do you contest what Mr Curtis is saying [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] about the capacity of York City to accommodate additional employment land? [Mr Ken Williamson:] No Chairman I don't think we do. Erm we're quite happy with with what Mr Curtis says about that, er we acknowledge that er while the need will be er probably much greater than the it's a physical fact of life in York that there isn't a great deal of er available land. And it would have to be found er if we were to move to to the er position that Mr Curtis has said about the total need, it would have to be found somewhere else. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] That leaves us then with... or would leave us... with a substantial provision in Greater York.... The Greater York figure doesn't I think change as a consequence of what Mr Curtis has said. But we're looking for something well in excess of a hundred hectares outside the city boundaries and essentially in the greenbelt. Is my conclusion correct? [speaker001:] not correct. Erm we are looking and we have found in a [LAUGHTER] sense [] erm land which er is available erm to meet the provisions, the a hundred and forty five hectares that the Greater York study suggested. Erm those sites are not actually er affected by greenbelt designations. [Miss D Whittaker:] They are inset in the greenbelt. [speaker001:] They are within the yes, within the inner boundary of the greenbelt. [Miss D Whittaker:] Between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt? The implication of what you're saying is that these hundred hectares plus can be found between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt? [speaker001:] Substantially that that's correct. Erm there's also of course the issue of the within the resettlement wherever that would be, that would be er if it's accepted it would be outside Greater York, so there would be an effect in a sense on the erm the Greater York figure in the policy of a hundred and forty five hectares would be minus whatever was allocated to the resettlement. [Miss D Whittaker:] Is it a sensible planning strategy to take all this land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt, in what is the current structure plan period, I wonder?... Where would you go after two thousand and six? [speaker001:] Well I think we will be er in a sense looking erm you know at the options that are available and all the options that are available after two thousand six, er we haven't looked at those in gr in any great detail, what the options were at that time. [Miss D Whittaker:] But those options will will be rather constrained will they not, erm [speaker001:] Have you [Miss D Whittaker:] a greenbelt which is intended to be permanent, a capac a city which has [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] limited capacity [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] for additional land as opposed to recycling the existing land. [speaker001:] Well er [Miss D Whittaker:] Will your proposed take-up of this the the white land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt in fact take the whole lot, or is there some reserve? [speaker001:] Erm, Chairman there isn't er reserve available, what we will be faced with is looking at erm for post two thousand and six, all options bar essential development around around the urban area. true. If the greenbelt is to mean anything. Well there would be options other than the ability to to make further provision around the the periphery of the city, between the urban area and the greenbelt. [Miss D Whittaker:] Essentially, aren't you saying that post two thousand and six, the options will be... two. Either to find additional land by recycling it in York, or beyond the greenbelt? [speaker001:] That's correct Chairman I think erm, we will be looking obviously to see what the prospects were within er the urban area and er sites do and surprisingly do continue to to to arrive and come up and we some other uses, erm they would make some contribution obviously erm, the other options would as you say be to to look beyond beyond the greenbelt at the opportunities that are available there. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can we just clarify one point. Erm the provision in policy I five does not include recycling land in in existing [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] industrial or commercial or business use. It is effectively in planning terms a change of use from whatever to industry or business that I find is providing for. [speaker001:] Yes Chairman the the main provisions of I five are to to make new land provisions. I think er the circumstances of Greater York are so complex and difficult administration that erm the the additional erm possibilities that in a sense would be making a contribution. [Miss D Whittaker:] Now now the point [speaker001:] But what I [Miss D Whittaker:] I was trying to clarify they don't make a contribution to the I five provision. They make a contribution to employment by virtue of an increase in employment density or or not, depending on whether that increase actually takes place but they do not contribute to the I five provision by virtue of not being a change of use. [speaker001:] Yes I understand that point. So effectively I five is a new land for employment uses? Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I just confirm with Mr Curtis that when he was talking about the thirty three hectares, he was talking about thirty three hectares in terms of in terms of a change of use [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] from whatever, be it agriculture, [speaker001:] David Curtis, York [Miss D Whittaker:] housing to industry. [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. I would answer that we are talking about a change of use but I have to add the reminder that the largest area inside the city is currently British Rail land. It's not in industrial use if one takes the definition that it's railway land. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] I appreciate that. Well it's certainly not in industrial use at the moment is it? Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I just clarify one other point with the County Council and for the benefit of those who've not been here for the last however many days. We were talking about the new settlement. To clarify that we established yesterday that the new settlement will not necessarily be within the Greater York area, as it is defined on the plan on the board. [speaker001:] The Greater York area coincides with that black circle roughly er on that on that map, and as you will see the Greater York area also coincides virtually with the whole of the greenbelt. Apart from the City of York and any other inset within it. [Miss D Whittaker:] Perhaps I should also say that the panel has not made up it's mind yet about whether [LAUGHTER] there should or should not be [] a new settlement of course. We also talked about the new settlement being self-contained and integrated, but came I think to a consensus around the table that the level of employment provision in the new settlement should be related to the level of... employment supply in the new settlement as opposed to a level of employment which would satisfy employment needs [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] in inverted commas for the Greater York area. In other words, it's not an employment location, it is primarily a residential new settlement development which has some employment in it to satisfy employment needs of those who live there. Professor Lock is now looking very confused. My question was simply at the moment Professor Lock er am I clear, are you clear about that? [Professor David Lock:] You're very clear in what you're saying [speaker001:] Good point that yeah. [Professor David Lock:] but erm, sorry the reason I'm raising my eyebrows is that the people who would come to live in the new settlement if it was to happen, are people who would otherwise have to live somewhere else in in the county [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes indeed. [Professor David Lock:] and so it seems to me that the erm really from the county's point of view, er to their advantage as it were, the employment land requirement stays the same. What you're just talking about is different patterns of its distribution that may occur. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm right. [Professor David Lock:] Has is that is that fair too? [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. Yes it is. On that basis, Mr Williamson, and on the basis that you propose and acknowledge others do not accept that this new settlement should at least in this plan period be for about fourteen hundred dwellings, what level of employment land provision can be taken out of the Greater York figure and assumed to be in the new settlement? [Mr Ken Williamson:] can I ask Mr Potter. [Mr David Potter:] Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Can you just s use the microphone and speak up Mr Potter please. People at the back can't hear. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er the distribution within Greater York is based essentially on the Greater York study, which identified the number of sites in and around Greater York and allocated those to the appropriate districts. There is a residue of unidentified land of some thirteen hectares, based on our revised assessment based on nineteen ninety one. Erm that is considered to be er an element which make a contribution towards the new settlement. [Miss D Whittaker:] Was that one three or three zero? [speaker001:] One three. [Mr David Potter:] One three. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Mr Curtis. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry Mr Curtis before you come in can I just come back to you, er I just want to get this clear. Erm in realistic terms you can accommodate thirty three hectares of industrial land in the City of York. Now does your er assessed requirement, or your assessment of needs, still remain at sixty three hectares, and if it does if it does, is that all taken care off within the one hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York figure? Or are we looking at possibly a larger figure now for Greater York? [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. No sir I I do accept first of all that the capacity of the city should remain at thirty three. [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [Mr David Curtis:] I accept that the fall within the hundred and forty five hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Okay, thank you. [Mr David Curtis:] Sir. What I would like to just er point out to the panel in terms of the earlier discussion the Senior Inspector was having about the sites around Greater York is that virtually without exception, well the two exceptions being the two hospital sites, I think all the other sites are actually our planning commitments so erm your comment about erm the longevity of the the greenbelt as it were, that virtually all those sites are actually committed in in one form or another, the only two sites which are not er committed really are the Naburn and Clifton hospital sites which are both inset within the greenbelt, well one is inset and one is subject to the normal P P G two er requirements for redevelopment of hospitals. [Miss D Whittaker:] These sites are inside the city boundary or not? [Mr David Curtis:] No they are, they lie they lie within the urban settlement of York but outside our boundary. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Miss Firth. [Miss Fiona Firth:] Fiona Firth, Montague Evans. It's our view Chairman that the figure of a hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York area is too high, erm the basis for that is the government guidance P P G twelve, paragraph five point one three, which says that the structure plan should provide a strategic framework for local plans development control and it should also indicate broad areas of restraint on development. Within Greater York the general philosophy embodied in both the Greater York study and the structure plan has been one of restraint. Erm the County Council's calculations identify the industrial B one land requirements to be on an economic activity base requirement, a hundred and two hectares and on a land-take basis a hundred and thirteen hectares, yet they're allocating a hundred and forty five hectares in the structure plan. Given the policy of restraint we believe that they should provide enough land to meet requirements, they shouldn't base their figure on past overtake. So therefore our contention that the figure should be reduced to a hundred and two hectares. If if they don't reduce that figure we feel that the oversupply will lead to green field sites being used where they shouldn't be. It also erm quite wrongly fuels justification for a new settlement proposal, because as they're saying there's a shortfall in allocations. [Miss D Whittaker:] Bearing in mind the advice in P P G four in particular, about providing a range and a choice of employment opportunities, the fact that the last decade this part of the country's probably seen two recessions... and the need for flexibility, [Miss Fiona Firth:] Mhm. [Miss D Whittaker:] do you think your recommended a hundred and two hectares would cater for all those things? [Miss Fiona Firth:] Well yes I do. There is a range of sites, there's a list of the different sites in the Greater York study, erm I've looked at most of those sites and they there there is a big range of sites both in size and location. Erm that period has also had a period of growth within it, and I feel that's a reasonable basis to go forward on. [Mr E Barnett:] Do you care to comment, Mr Williamson? [Mr Ken Williamson:] Thank you Chairman. Er Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm owing to the extent Chairman and I think erm we we have established er we were happy that the the level of development er rightly or wrongly as a as a commitment is already in excess of the hundred and two hectares being spoken about. I'd also just comment briefly on erm th the comments being made about restraint. Er it's never been the County Council's er objective or intention to restrain what are the genuine er employment needs of its local residents, erm and we feel that this level of allocation is suited to to the needs of the residents. [Mr E Barnett:] After two thousand and six?... Mr Girt? [Mr Dave Girt:] Dave Girt, Leeds City. I wonder if I could bring Mr Williamson back to the basic methodology of calculation of the overall requirement share. [clears throat] It seems to me two of the elements are lend themselves to some sort of arithmetical assessment an and the County's gone through at. Mr Williamson's pointed to other factors which have been taken into account, the local requirements as a as a advised to him by the district councils, but he hasn't mentioned the Secretary of State's advice in R P G two that North Yorkshire should take account of the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire in that calculation. I wonder if he could describe to us what influence that has been brought to bear on the the overall calculation? [Miss D Whittaker:] I think it might be helpful Mr Girt if you could be a little more explicit about what in particular [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] you're getting at. [Mr Dave Girt:] Well if I refer you, Dave Girt, Leeds City, if I refer you madam to the first paragraph of R P G 2 which is strategic planning guidance for West Yorkshire. [Miss D Whittaker:] You have the benefit of us both I think up here, can you t [Mr Dave Girt:] Well,per could I read the sentence which [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr Dave Girt:] I'm to quote then. It says [reading] the guidance has some implications for adjoining areas and neighbouring county and metropolitan district councils are asked to have to regard to it when reviewing and altering their statutory development plans []. [Miss D Whittaker:] What do you interpret those implications as being? [Mr Dave Girt:] Well I, I'm having some difficulty in keeping my remarks addressed to question A and not drifting into question B because obviously Leeds City Council and perhaps speaking for the rest of West Yorkshire's concerned about regeneration effects. [Miss D Whittaker:] Is that as far as you can take us on your interpretation of what those implications are? [Mr Dave Girt:] I don't want to l, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I don't want to make a meal of it, I mean the the theme of R P G two is about revitalizing [Miss D Whittaker:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mr Dave Girt:] West Yorkshire,i it's the central core of that strategy. [Miss D Whittaker:] Right but isn't [Mr Dave Girt:] S [Miss D Whittaker:] isn't there a risk that if we don't keep a reasonable balance between employment and... employment demand and employment supply in North Yorkshire, we shall finish up for different reasons with a need to regenerate the economy of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire? [Mr Dave Girt:] Dave Girt, Leeds City. Yes I think Leeds would be very happy to accept arguments erm based in part on the arithmetic, in part on the needs of the area. All I'm saying is, what account has been taken of that other ingredient, which is the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire? Mr Williamson didn't mention it in his description of the way he'd arrived, the County Council had arrived at their five hundred and odd hectares and er so far as West Yorkshire's aware, it's been ignored or so f as far as we're aware so far, it's been ignored. Now we're not arguing that the calculation should go beyond past land take-up and er counting the heads of those who would be employed, we w we would follow a similar process and we recognize that there are needs beyond that. [Miss D Whittaker:] But you've argued... previously in this hall that North Yorkshire should provide for residential development at a level which would cater for a continuation of the past levels of migration. [Mr Dave Girt:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] In the interests not least of Great of the Leeds Metropolitan Area? I'm still having a bit of difficulty reconciling those what you're saying with those sorts of lines put to us previously. [Mr Dave Girt:] Dave Girt, Leeds City. Let me just clarify the line I've been arguing previously, and with Bradford. We both argued that the levels of er housing development in Craven, Harrogate and to a lesser extent perhaps Amblet Hambleton should not be constrained, so as to reduce erm the the steady trickle if I can describe it as that of migration from the West Yorkshire conurbation to those areas, in perhaps er l looking at the different proposal for the new settlement which might be located in the Leeds York corridor. We've argued that that would stimulate migration as opposed simply to accommodate past trends, so we've argued that, but the the problem for West Yorkshire well for Leeds in particular is that the brown field sites we have, the regeneration that we need is not of sites which would readily accommodate housing, they're not sites which lend themselves as nice places to live. They're almost always surrounded by existing long term industry, they're not the sorts of places we want Leeds residents to have to live in the future. And it's it's on the economic front that regeneration has the highest priority in Leeds and not on the housing front, as I as I've previously described. For housing purposes we've taken large chunks out of our greenbelt, signalling that in terms of regeneration, we don't have regeneration housing sites. [Miss D Whittaker:] If you were County Planning Officer for North Yorkshire as well as for Leeds, how would you want the North Yorkshire structure plan changed? [Mr Dave Girt:] Well I'd like, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd like s some recognition of West Yorkshire's problems to be evident in er the deliberations, which er at the moment it's it's absent, it may it may have been taken into account but it's absent in the exposition, and I I'd also like some erm indication that competing development would not be massed on the boundaries of Leeds, that the scales of er the the distribution of the employment land seems to be to be biased towards those districts which which border Leeds. [Miss D Whittaker:] Sorry to press this but would you regard the provision of thirty three or forty six hectares in York and a hundred and five hectares in Greater York as being prejudicial to your interests in Leeds? [Mr Dave Girt:] I'd, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd be er pleased to hear from Mr Williamson that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is actually to be contained within the York greenbelt, I I think Leeds has misunderstood that point, perhaps misled by the way each one was worded and we've in previous days clarified that point so [Miss D Whittaker:] Right. My understanding is that with the exception of the thirteen hectares which [speaker001:] Yes. Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] er Mr Williamson has indicated would be the [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] the right sort of order of magnitude of allocation to the new settlement, the remainder of the hundred and forty five hectares would be within that ring on that plan. Are you happy? [Mr Dave Girt:] Yes I a I think, Dave Girt, Leeds City. I think erm previously we misunderstood that point, we thought the hundred and forty five hectares was footloose in the same area of search for the settlement and [speaker001:] No. [Mr Dave Girt:] I'm I'm pleased that that's been clarified and er we understand that better now. [speaker001:] Well that's not our understanding anyway, you know that it's footloose. I mean [Mr Dave Girt:] Right, right. [speaker001:] Yes we're clear. [Mr Dave Girt:] Right. I I'm still a little bit puzzled about the thirteen hectares, is that footloose depending on where the settlement is placed if it's placed within Greater York? [Miss D Whittaker:] The settlement er in all probability as we established yesterday morning, could not go within those few fields which are in the Greater York area and not in the greenbelt. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] There are two small patches to the north of the city and looking at the plan again this morning there's one small patch [speaker001:] Mm, mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] to the south. We have certainly not confined the area of search for the new settlement [speaker001:] to that [Miss D Whittaker:] to those areas. As you know, if you heard the discussion yesterday which I believe you did, in accord with the County Council's criterion that it the new settlement should be within ten miles, we've widened the area of search to that ten mile radius. [Mr Dave Girt:] Dave Girt, Leeds City. Th thank you for that madam, I I understand that better now. Still I think there are concerns for Leeds about the scale of employment land proposed in Selby for example, which seems to us significantly more than could be supported by the arithmetic calculation plus some kind of a sensible allowance, it seems to f to be excessively generous. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yeah. Er obviously Mr Girt, [Mr Dave Girt:] I think yes I think we've [Miss D Whittaker:] we've concentrated on York and Greater York for the moment [Mr Dave Girt:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] We shall move the scene elsewhere. You'll get your chance again no doubt. Mr Cunnane, [Miss D Whittaker:] Is it about York? [Mr E Barnett:] Is it about York, or Tadcaster? [speaker001:] N neither. [LAUGHTER] Selby. And it's a lot, I have a lot to say so it might be better to wait. Until after the break, I don't know. It's up to you. [Mr E Barnett:] You want to shift the scene now to Selby District? [speaker001:] Erm [Miss D Whittaker:] Is well is there anything the other districts want to say [speaker001:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] about Greater York? [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Smith. [cough] Ian Smith, Ryedale District. It's erm coming back to a point which Mr Curtis made about the amount of land identified in the Greater York study area, which is allocated but doesn't have a planning permission. Erm within Ryedale we've got thirty odd hectares of land which we've allocated for development in the period up to two thousand and six [Miss D Whittaker:] In the Greater York area? [Mr E Barnett:] In the Greater York area which doesn't have a current planning permission, and that's not including a redundant hospital site of another ten hectares. [Miss D Whittaker:] So you re... you regard that as providing some flexibility? [Mr E Barnett:] Well in er in terms of Ryedale yes. And as I say there i there is land there which is is er aimed to provide a range of sites up until the end of the structure plan period, within that part of the Greater York area. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr Ken Williamson:] Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Erm as we're on Greater York I feel I ought to say something having a s small part of the Greater York area within Hambleton. Erm we don't expect to be making any meaningful contribution towards erm employment provision around Greater York, I'd refer you to er statements we made erm on erm the p on policy H one. Erm only three settlements in the area, very small, and it's unlikely that they're gonna meet meet an make any meaningful contribution to employment needs in Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Mr Allenby, I I know you've made a submission but can we just clarify what provision is being made in Harrogate District which can be seen quite rightly as forming pa a contribution towards the Greater York? [Mr David Potter:] Thank you Chairman, yes. The the total provision for Harrogate District is ninety hectares of which thirty hectares is allocated to Greater York and we support that allocation because it properly reflects the provision of a site which is already committed for industrial development. So it's a single site of thirty hectares which is committed by way of planning permission. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton. [Miss D Whittaker:] Er [clears throat] Terry Heselton, Selby District. Er just for the record Chairman to confirm that Selby District has no argument with the County Council on the Greater York. How much can you provide in the Greater York area? There's [clears throat] I think it's approximately twenty six hectares identified, erm most of which is committed in one way or another. And that figure also coincides with the the estimated requirement figure that we've come up with independently for the Greater York area, within Selby District anyway. And that if my arithmetic is correct which it often isn't, takes us to [speaker001:] hundred and nineteen [Miss D Whittaker:] hundred and nineteen [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] hectares in Greater York. That will [Mr E Barnett:] I'll just repeat that. Thirty hectares for Ryedale, thirty for Harrogate, twenty six Selby and thirty three York City. Mr Potter. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm we have been monitoring land availability since about nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety and our records for Ryedale show that there are approximately fifty hectares available. Some small sites within existing industrial areas are still available. Some small sites within existing industrial areas at Clifton and at er Pigeoncote particularly are available and undeveloped. [Miss D Whittaker:] Well if they're within existing industrial areas, then they're not included in the I five provision are they? [Mr David Potter:] They they are vacant sites, serviced and ready for development. They must make a contribution. [speaker001:] [whispering] Never been developed. [] [Mr David Potter:] They've never been developed. They're vacant land. They're the the residue of partially developed sites. [Miss D Whittaker:] Right. I understand, thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Smith. Yeah I just er want to reaffirm that. The figure I gave was on erm sites which were allocated [speaker001:] allocated [Mr E Barnett:] but had no planning permission, that wasn't including er I think twenty three hectares we've calculated which have erm outstanding planning permissions. So adding this extra twenty hectares identified within Ryedale, that takes us to a hundred and thirty nine hectares for Greater York. Yeah, yeah. I think it might be useful to break there so we can have coffee. Reconvene at eleven thirty then we'll I think we, unless somebody else wants to raise points on Greater York, Mr Curtis? [Mr David Curtis:] David Curtis, York City Council. Sir I would just, I think it would help the panel if you will refer to table seventeen of erm N Y six which actually sets out these sites. [Mr E Barnett:] Right. [Mr David Curtis:] Erm, will help help you obviously totalling all the proportions up. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. So reconvene at eleven thirty please. [break coffee] And let's turn our attention to Selby. Mr Cunnane, you indicated you wish to speak on that? [speaker001:] Yes.... Yes please Chairman erm J Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Erm I have a number of points to make but what I intend to do is to er very briefly outline them and then see where we go from there if that's acceptable. Er I would like to say at the outset that erm we we support the deposit version of the er the deposit version allocations of the alteration. We think they are about right, they would provide for an appropriate level of development. Erm I I should also say that for the for the record that erm we accept the Greater York figures and regard them as also acceptable. Er turning now to er land allocation with particular reference to Selby. Erm it is our position that we would support and regard as as the best approach one based on past land take-up. Erm and there is an important planning principle which er I would like to draw attention to in in this in in in the approach that we adopt and where we differ from Selby. The Selby approach seems to me to be er look at the land that is allocated which amounts to approximately a hundred hectares in the district and discount a great deal of it because it's constrained in some way or another, and I'll come back to those constraints later. But I simply want to make the the point of planning principle that you don't as a matter of approach walk away from constrained sites and say, ah well we don't like that because there's some constraint, we'll go and we'll reallocate an another piece of land somewhere else, and er that'll come forward more easily. If you adopt that approach it is inevitable that there's going to result dereliction and sterilization of land. And that approach er to in er in that sense is is totally unacceptable. However, it is the approach that Selby appeared to adopt. Turning now to the question of allocating land on the basis of need. It is appears to be accepted in principle by Selby in paragraph two point eight of their submission, that they do actually accept this approach. [cough] However, they they say that it i b it is unacceptable because it er pays insufficient regard to loss of jobs and the future role of manufacturing and service industry. As I understand the way need has been calculated, and the County will correct me if I'm wrong on this, er the method does actually take account of unemployment, and it sets an eventual employment level of three percent as a goal. And erm for that reason, er I wouldn't accept that the that that approach is is er inappropriate on that basis. The second point I would make on the criticism that Selby make of the need erm assessment is they say that it doesn't erm take adequate cognizance of manufacturing and service employment. As I understand the allocations, they don't seek to differentiate between different types of employment within the business use class, erm and for that reason equally I would regard that submission that it's an unacceptable approach as as invalid. Er Mr Potter this morning very fairly said to this erm t to the panel that if you do his need assessment which i if you got to the the exercise and stretch every parameter to its very limits, be as generous as you can on every possible criterion, you can get to an allocation for Selby of a hundred and twenty two hectares. Selby are looking for an allocation of twice that, and if you a if you accept that the County are correct and I can see no reason to to erm to vary from that, in fact our submissions er set out very clearly why we think every parameter is stretched to its limits,i if you st i if you accept that then at the very least I think its incumbent upon Selby to put forward a cogent argument for doubling that figure. The reason for that is that it is we are operating in a in an environment of planning policy restraint. We are not a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire er polic in a in a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire policy regime. And for that reason, need, local need, should be catered for, unemployment sh obviously should be catered for but a growth strategy which seeks to double the allocation without any justification is inevitably going to lead to one of two things, it is going to draw in in economic activity from outside, and it is likely that that will be from areas of regeneration, or it will lead to commuting. Either of those two approaches are unacceptable in principle in policy terms. However, turning turning to Selby's demand led approach which I would call it, and I think that is erm how they themselves in fact describe it, they have set a level of two hundred and two hundred to two hundred a fifty hectares based on demand, and as I understand it there is no assessment of job need or job demand to back that requirement. There is no cognizance taken of the advice in P P G twelve, paragraph five point four four, which says that [reading] it is right to have a flexible approach er with a range of sites available to business to be provided in plans, and authorities will want to ensure that in allocating sites there is a reasonable expectation of development proceeding []. Well I would have thought that if there was to be some assessment of a reasonable expectation of development proceeding, then there ought to be some assessment of demand, and I haven't seen that yet. It is suggested also in Selby's submissions that demand has been frustrated in their paragraphs three point two one to three point two five, but again no evidence has been submitted of that, that I have seen. Selby enjoy partially part part of their area enjoys assisted area status, part of it enjoys objective two status, it is an area where land is cheap, it is an area where there is a plentiful supply of labour, and yet the past allocation in the structure plan has not been taken up. The submission that Selby make on the basis of constraints, of which I've referred to earlier, Are you to my mind they're no different to the constraints that one would experience in any other planning area. Erm, I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate for me to go through the the table now and look at the constraints, or whether it might be better to leave that until after I've finished my overall remarks. [cough] Yes okay. Er my next point is that it has t this panel has to consider the implications of the Selby go for growth approach which I would call it, and I don't think Selby differ from that, I think Selby are embarked on a a a a policy of growth, that the implications of that policy have to be con taken into consideration in relation to housing in particular, erm and it is apparent that if the allocation is doubled then there is unquestionably going to be a housing implication arising from that, and whether that would fit in with policies H one and H two.... Hous yes I think that deals with erm my main points other than to say,t to repeat er very very briefly because Mr Curtis made the point already, that there is an implication er for this in in this growth strategy for er effect on regeneration in West Yorkshire in particular. Er now I do have as I say some detailed points on constraints and things but perhaps I'll leave those for the moment. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mr Cunnane I think it may be helpful, bearing in mind that you do not support the proposed level for housing provision in Selby to try to as isolate that element from our discussion.... To what extent if if you accept the... County Council's proposed housing provision for Selby, and I appreciate that's hypothetical but I er I think it would help me to get this element isolated from our discussion, otherwise we may go round in ever decreasing circles. What level of employment land provision would you support in Selby? [speaker001:] I would assume that the County Council's assessment of need at a hundred and twenty two hectares does take cognizance of the s the anticipated growth in housing. And I'll obviously be corrected on that if I'm er I'm getting an an affirmative nod from Mr Potter. So erm on on the basis on the assumption on the assumption that you've put to me, then I would be prepared to accept that a hundred and twenty two hectares would be a reasonable level. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you that's helpful. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton. [Miss D Whittaker:] Well I wondered er Terry Heselton, Selby District. I wondered if it would er be appropriate for me to respond at this juncture? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] As er set out in in my written submission, Selby District clearly doesn't support either of the er alternative methods of of calculating em employment land. I'll I'll deal with them both first. In respect of past land-take. I feel this is completely unrealistic, because basically er demand has been thwarted by existing land shortages. In a nutshell the approved structure plan seriously underestimated the employment needs of the district, and it allocated only forty six hectare for a fifteen year period. What this means in essence when when you look at the geography of of the district is that it imposes severe restrictions on where you can distribute reasonable sized employment allocations around the district. And the other thing you have to bear in mind is that at the time the original structure plan was drawn up, they weren't talking about the er the structural employment problems that we are at the moment. In fact I think it's true to say that when the forty six hectare figure wa was agreed, it was known that the coal field was coming and er I think time has shown hasn't brought anything like the number of jobs or economic

[speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr E Barnett:] Can we, can we start? Hope we haven't spoilt your you haven't spoilt lunch by doing the statistical check. [speaker001:] No. [Mr E Barnett:] No, thank you. Erm first of all can I put the county on notice to er respond later on this afternoon to the thesis expanded by Professor Lock that er it might be tenable to start calculating employment land requirements based on numbers of employed or numbers in employment or desired ai or employment levels to be aimed at, er and coupled with that, is there anything in the figures which they have produced in either their submission or and and its appendices which actually might form a basis for that sort of calculation? It's a view, I'm not necessarily asking you to do any further statistical work but I would like a view on it, whether it's tenable or not. And then we go back to the point which Mr Cunnane wanted to raise and they've had their lunchtime discussions, see whether you've come to a some form of agreement or resolution on that. [clears throat] [Mr Joe Cunnane:] We have. [Mr E Barnett:] You have? Right, would you like to start on that then? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Right. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Whil whilst whilst you're thinking about it [clears throat] I would also suggest that er well ask for any other comments anybody may wish to raise on Selby itself. Erm anything else that needs to be added? Er and if not we would move to discuss Harrogate. [clears throat] Professor Lock. [Professor David Lock:] Er David Lock sir. One matter rose over erm in discussion over lunch which if we could get a clarification on it might help the remainder of the day. Erm it's about the relationship between policy I five erm on industry and the policy I fifteen for erm central area offices and so on. It was erm said this morning early on in an exchange in the discussion that erm [speaker001:] [cough] [Professor David Lock:] these two things were separate. [Mr E Barnett:] I twelve you mean? [Professor David Lock:] I'm sorry [Mr E Barnett:] I twelve yes. [Professor David Lock:] I beg your pardon I beg your pardon twelve, these two things were separate you know one could be added to the other in looking an as it were at the total employment requirement. Th that was what was said. Going through it at lunchtime we wondered if that really is what was meant, it's terribly important one way or the other. Would it be possible to [Mr E Barnett:] Well you'd you'd like clarification on that from the county? [Miss D Whittaker:] Yeah. That was not my understanding Professor Lock. My understanding was that any provision made in accordance with I twelve did not count towards I five [speaker001:] I five [Miss D Whittaker:] provision. [Professor David Lock:] Did not count. Is that different to what I've just asked, sorry? [Miss D Whittaker:] I think so. [Professor David Lock:] Right. Let's, can we find out. [Mr E Barnett:] Well can I say I, my interpretation of it, we're not quite looking at the same sort of horse. [Professor David Lock:] Right. [Mr E Barnett:] But, Mr Williamson would you care to comment on the difference between I five and I, well what is the purpose of I twelve compared with the purpose of I five? Mr Potter. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. The essential difference i between I twelve and I five is that I twelve in the past has dealt with central area office developments [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mr David Potter:] erm and some service development. Now because of the changes to the use classes order and the B one office category, it's not always clear what is central area offices, what is B one offices on industrial estates, so what we've tried to do in terms of I five, I five has always essentially been there to deal with industrial development, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mr David Potter:] we've tried to incorporate an element of B one office within that provision but we feel it's not feasible to monitor effectively erm I twelve type office development within central areas. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] The old I twelve which you have proposed altering and this is for Professor Lock's benefit, actually had specific er floor-space figures set against York, Scarborough and Harrogate did it not? [Mr David Potter:] It did yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Yeah. And those have now been are proposed to be deleted from this [Mr David Potter:] They are. [Mr E Barnett:] modification or this change to the policy. [Miss D Whittaker:] But anything done I twelve does not take up any part of I five, as I understand it. [Mr David Potter:] That's correct. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Does that clarify? [Miss D Whittaker:] So [Mr E Barnett:] Does that clarify? [Mr David Potter:] That is what I heard sir, yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] So there is no limit on B one use in central areas, in or adjacent to town centres to use the definition use in I twelve. There is however some provision un-quantified for B one use in I five. [speaker001:] I five. [Professor David Lock:] The sorry David Lock again. So the the that is what I heard this morning erm very grateful erm erm for your patience. It it does, it is a terribly material [speaker001:] Mhm. [Professor David Lock:] erm clarification because for people like me that are interested in the total provision of employment land in the district, erm what I'm hearing for example in the case of Harrogate is that there is an allocation of employment land of of sixty hectares plus the Greater York allocation. It means that any office development or commercial [clears throat] of this kind in this I twelve policy that was to occur in Harrogate would not be counted off the sixty hectares of em erm of I five allocation, it would be in addition to it, and that may be a very important breakthrough for us. [Mr E Barnett:] Well yes. No doubt you'll want to return to that. [Professor David Lock:] Thank you very much. I'm most grateful sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] But the critical thing with I twelve as the policy's currently drafted is that it is location specific. It is not other than in town centres, market towns and local commercial centres. [speaker001:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] There is no such restriction on any I five provision. [Professor David Lock:] It would mean then erm that a district council could take its allocation under I five in its local plan, distribute it everywhere except in the town centre [Miss D Whittaker:] Not necessarily. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Professor David Lock:] right. It could put some in the town centre or it could or it need not. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Professor David Lock:] That could be determined against the local plan. If it chose to put it all outside the town centre, what then subsequently occurred in the town centre under I twelve would not be damaging its allocation against the structure plan policy outside the town centre. I it looks like there's a lot of freedom in there at the local level which is of interest. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] You are you are getting affirmative [Professor David Lock:] I'm getting nods aren't I sir, and I'm very grateful for that. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes, yes, yes. Mr Cunnane? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Yes the point that I wanted to raise on the table we have resolved. It was, I didn't erm believe that the picture of constraint that was painted in appendix two was quite as bad as it looked. And we have discussed the matter with erm Selby officers and the following is the result of those discussions. What we've done is we've taken out of the table what is unlikely to happen, no not unlikely, er I'll rephrase that, what is agreed will not come forward in in the structure plan period, the roll forward [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] period. And they are as follows, Selby Road Barlby, one point three hectares, it's about erm seventh from the top of the list, [Mr E Barnett:] Yes I've got it. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] yeah, and the next one Olympia Mills Barlby. Then moving down the table to outstanding planning consents, Whelan Road, Eggborough, three point three hectares. And at the very bottom of the table Naburn hospital, twenty point eight nine hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] So that's about forty hectares in total is it? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] It's thir thirty two point six hectares in total [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] of im of I five land. [speaker001:] Did you say thirty? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I'll tell you, I I have a, if I finish the sentence it may explain. In the Naburn hospital allocation it's, there is eleven H A for I five land and then there's a remaining allocation for retail [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yes. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] So if you count only the I five land, you get a figure of thirty two point six hectares [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] which needs to be deducted from the hundred and ten point two seven... which gives you a re a possible alloca a possible amount of land to come forward in the structure plan period of seventy seven point six seven, off which to make the figures round properly you need to take another ten, for the retail element if that became I five land which could theoretically give you a figure of sixty seven point six seven.... Does that make sense? [Mr E Barnett:] It might [clears throat] it would be helpful actually if this could be written down for us. Quite happy to have it in manuscript. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Mm. Right. Yeah we'll do that. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Mr [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you sir, Terry Heselton, Selby District. I'm I'm not wishing to er to dispute what er Mr Cunnane's just said er, I hope you won't think I'm necessarily splitting hairs but [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Terry Heselton:] er we we've we've agreed the table on on the base basis of erm information best information available a at the moment but but equally I wouldn't wish it to be seen th that I am in any way attempting to prejudge the outcome of er local plan studies, erm so the information that I've agreed with with Mr C Cunnane is basically an attempt to clarify the tabulation fo er in [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr Terry Heselton:] terms of what is most likely to happen on the basis of the information available. [Mr E Barnett:] I mean i what what we're looking for is is the overall figure of this revised assessment of land availability for I five uses in the plan period, and your residue figure would be the one which would not likely to be made available before the year two thousand and six. Are you happy with that? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Yes sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Now anyone else want to make a contribution on Selby... and then we can move to Harrogate?... Sorry, yes. Come on it's alright. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Final contr final contribution on Selby if I may please. I just need to draw attention to the fact that the erm Selby have given us a a very clear explanation of their unemployment problems and the difficulties they're facing and erm their th th their solution being er the allocations that they're suggesting which obviously I don't agree with. But I just I simply need to point out that these I five allocations are targeted at twenty eight percent of the workforce. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Erm the remaining seventy two percent are entirely separate from this and obviously that's a a very important point to bear in mind when you consider the level of allocation that's been made first of all, and secondly the likelihood that if that is successful, first of all if it's approved, if it's recommended by the panel and eventually taken on by the county, and secondly if happens, then it is likely that it will result in skewing of the workforce even more towards the manufacturing sector of the economy and would in our view be contrary to the aim of diversification of the economic base. [Miss D Whittaker:] I don't understand that Mr Cunnane... Can you first of all explain please why you say it's targeted towards twenty eight percent of the workforce? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Be because the I five policy is aimed at a specific area of the workforce, it's not it's not across the full spectrum. For example it omits retail services [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] erm all other types of employment other than I five type employment. [Miss D Whittaker:] But I five includes business use, class B one. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] It includes an element of business use which is likely to end up in er industrial estates which is not the full spectrum of business use, back to the point I twelve er is the main generator of business use employment as I understand it. [Miss D Whittaker:] It could include any B one use? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes.... But the [Miss D Whittaker:] I don't understand therefore how you can ex say that it's targeted to primarily to manufacturing. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Because the B one use that's that is planned for within that allocation is a type of B one which is likely to locate on an industrial estate er to use the the term. It's not the full spectrum of B one use. The reason that that B one insertion has been made is to cope with the use classes order change. [Miss D Whittaker:] I don't think I can accept that it's targeted towards industrial estates, it does not preclude office style campus development being included within it. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes I I would accept that. But the general point remains that it is to it is targeted towards a particular sector of the workforce. it omits town centre office, it omits retail, it omits leisure, all the other types of employment generation that can take place. [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] I think we can agree it omits leisure, shopping, [Mr E Barnett:] Education. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Lo local government administration [Miss D Whittaker:] No it does not o omit local government administration. [speaker001:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] It'd be perfectly proper if there were new local government offices to be built for them to be located on an I five site. [Mr E Barnett:] I can cite you a perfectly good example of that. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Well that's specifically excluded from the er calculation. If you look into the calculations you'll find they are specifically excluded. [Miss D Whittaker:] The... I wasn't talking about what were included in the calculations, what I was talking about and we may be at cross purposes for that reason is what the policy provides for. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] It's it's probably easier to say what it doesn't provide for. Erm, it as I say it doesn't provide for the the uses we've just discussed and in my, I don't want to get too entangled in the statistics of it, the main point I want to make is that [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] it is targeted at a s at a at a sector of the workforce, it is not the whole workforce of Selby by any means. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] It is [Mr E Barnett:] But that applies to any of the districts? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Doesn't it? Yeah. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I accept that, but none of the other districts are g are are making the point that's Selby's making, that the level of unemployment that they are encountering across the economy, not necessarily just in this sector of the economy, justifies the doubling of the of the of the allocation put forward. [Mr E Barnett:] But part of their argument as I see it is that they are trying to seek to minimize the impact er in terms of unemployment levels by shifting the structure er and trying to well possibly counter the effects of a fallout in the primary sector. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes I accept that. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] But it doesn't it doesn't take from the point that I made that it is i i the allocation they're seeking is aimed at a very specific sector of the employment base. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, well yeah. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] That the Senior Inspector doesn't accept that. [Miss D Whittaker:] No I cannot accept that. It includes all types of industry and business use as d the latter is defined by class B one [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I'll I'll accept that. [Miss D Whittaker:] which includes light industry. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] It is not therefore targeted towards manufacturing. Any more than it is targeted towards high-tech, R and D, office headquarters or any other type of office development except that which is and as I said in response to the point Professor Lock was making, it does not include town centre type [speaker001:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] uses. There is nothing in it which precludes town centre type uses. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Well i if it assists, I'll omit the use of any kinds of labels of manufacturing or offices [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] or anything like that and I will make the point that it is targeted at a sector of the economy and the workforce, it is not the whole economy and not the whole workforce. [Mr E Barnett:] I think the point you were trying to make is it it's a relative sorry no I shouldn't say relatively small, but it's a proportion of the workforce which is somewhat less than fifty percent. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] I can't accept that. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] But are you [Mr E Barnett:] It's difficult it's difficult [Miss D Whittaker:] No. [Mr E Barnett:] It's difficult to put figures on that you see, you can't do it. [Miss D Whittaker:] I accept that it precludes class A development. It does not in my view exclude any B class development. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I accept that. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] Then it is not targeted towards any sector of the workforce. Is it? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Well i by definition it must be if it excludes all A classes for example. [Miss D Whittaker:] It inc excludes retail development. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes. Leisure development, [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] As the chairman said education, transport [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. Yes. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I d I d [Miss D Whittaker:] Not except it does not i preclude exclude B eight uses. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] No. [Miss D Whittaker:] Warehousing. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] No I I well I've accepted it includes [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] all B uses. But as I say I don't necessarily want to get involved in too much of the detail of the statistics of it, I simply want to make the overall point that we've been told that there are three thousand unemployed. It's an emotional phrase okay. There are three thousand unemployed in Selby. Selby has has a particular problem, its its economy is narrowly focused, it suffers high unemployment. The point I make is that the the allocations that we are making are not going to solve the problem across the full spectrum of the economy, they are targeted. [Mr E Barnett:] I think we might well we could be in a cul-de-sac here or a discussion which er could cease to bear any fruit very rapidly. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Could we er [Miss D Whittaker:] Are you s can we j ask Mr Cunnane is he suggesting that I five definition the second line of the policy should be widened? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] No I'm not. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Heselton. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Er thank you sir, Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm [clears throat]. In in view in the light of what you've just said I'm not sure whether I wanna get er too involved. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Terry Heselton:] certainly not in the er in the statistical element. C can I just clarify erm, what I think Mr Cunnane w was saying then through through you i if you like. The the twenty [Mr E Barnett:] What do you mean if I like? [Mr Terry Heselton:] eight percent erm the two hundred and fifty hectare er two hundred and fifty hectares is needed for twenty eight percent of [Mr E Barnett:] I was [Mr Terry Heselton:] the of the workforce. [Mr E Barnett:] I was trying to get away from percentages and I was trying not to pursue the thing any further. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Well I'll go along with that, sir. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [whispering] Do you want to pursue it any further? [] [Miss D Whittaker:] Only to the extent of saying [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] given that those that are employed today cannot be guaranteed to be em [cough] to be employed tomorrow and that the three thousand in essence comprises of a constantly changing group of people, I don't see how anyone can argue that future employment provision is geared towards anybody. It's geared towards us all surely. Even inspector work. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] But you don't m I won't say it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Can we move to Harrogate? Mr Allenby can I ask you to pick up your submission then follow on with er Professor Lock. [Mr David Allenby:] Thank you chairman. Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I'll be very brief [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Allenby:] it's all set down in my statement. Er basically Harrogate's position is that it supports the level of employment land proposed in policy I five, and that's er a total allocation of ninety hectares. Erm however we would wish to see that policy complemented by the inclusion of the strategic exceptions policy erm and we know that I know that's to be discussed tomorrow but I will mention now that I think it would have been much more useful to the discussion if we'd have been able to discuss the strategic sites issue as part of this debate. We were we were not looking for an exception to policy E two we were looking for a policy which complements erm I five. Anyway I'll I'll not say any more about that. The total allocation of ninety hectares fo for Harrogate comprises er two thirty hectares Greater York, sixty hectares for the rest of the district. I've already said this morning that the thirty hectares for Greater York really reflects the availability of the site which is already committed. The sixty hectares provision for the rest of the district closely erm relates both to both methods erm of the forecasting erm that the County Council have done and the the forecast on on the basis of past rates and economic activity, and it's our view that erm the the level of sixty hectares is reasonable in relation to both those methodologies. Anything less than sixty hectares would be unrealistic and it certainly won't allow us any flexibility at all to allocate erm sufficient land as we see it to meet the needs of the resident population, and there would in fact be a shortfall er of employment land provision in our view towards the end of the plan period. Er perhaps more importantly,i it wouldn't meet the advice of P P G four that provision should be realistic er a realistic reflection of the needs of business er and that there should be a range in choice of sites to meet [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Allenby:] the varying needs of business and to facilitate competition. Having said that, we're not seeking an higher allocation under I five either er because in general terms, we we don't feel it's necessary to make further provision in and around main settlements. Erm having said that, I I will mention briefly again the strategic sites issue and we do feel that there should be additional flexibility through that sort of policy to allow for er the possibility of different types of developments to come forward. Er we do hold the view that the sixty hectares is sufficient on the on the basis that there is a degree of flexibility within the structure plan provision, er and that er flexibility should allow us erm in special circumstances for example to compensate for the loss of existing major employment erm sites, erm to make additional provision over and above that. We already have confirmation from the County Council that there is an element of flexibility within er I five. I note in circumstances where th there was to be the loss of a major employment site to other uses, then er additional provision could be made. I don't really want to make any more [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I interpret what you've just said as erm... representing in effect an aim on the part of the County Council to secure in Harrogate the nineteen ninety one area of employment land plus ninety hectares in two thousand and six? [Mr David Allenby:] Yes tha that's right yes. In general terms. [Miss D Whittaker:] So if you lost something the ninety would increase accordingly? [Mr David Allenby:] Yes er the er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Yes I think that would apply where there was a a major or significant loss of employment land. We're not talking about small sites which go from employment use [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Allenby:] to another use, we're talking about something much more significant than that. That's not been defined erm and it will be a matter of judgement. There are sites in Harrogate that erm could be lost to employment use and that we'd want to make compensating provision for those sites over and above the ninety hectares. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Professor Lock and then Mr Laycock. [Professor David Lock:] David Lock sir [clears throat] excuse me. [clears throat] David Lock. I think I could be a lot lot shorter than it might have been thought was necessary because things have been made, a lot of furniture has be has been moved today er already. Erm we sir had objected to the erm er allocation proposed for of employment land under I five er to Harrogate, er believing that it should have been even more than [speaker001:] [cough] [Professor David Lock:] the erm er raised figure of sixty hectares outside Greater York er that is in currently before you before us all. Erm the reasons that we were er anxious about this allocation to Harrogate erm stemmed from the point that I think somebody should make on this occasion and that is that it does seem there are two local authorities within North Yorkshire that have particularly distinguished er issues to deal with on employment. One is Selby which we've just spent the morning discussing and for very very different reasons the other is Harrogate. Erm Harrogate er is a borough that's enjoyed an enormous er growth in prosperity and economic activity during the erm exciting er yuppie years of Mrs Thatcher the mid eighties and erm er was indeed one of the I think one of the most wealthy boroughs, one of the highest economic activity rate levels, the Civic Society tell us in their papers it was paying the highest rates and all these sort of indicators, but with as so much of that period it turned out to be er a bubble and a chimera and er the borough has experienced some very severe erm er closures in recent years. And so whilst the popular perception of Harrogate will remain of it as being a very prosperous and pretty borough er with everything going for it, in fact there's a very serious unemployment problem of structural er magnitude and we felt that the county structure plan had not acknowledged this erm special difficulty that Harrogate was facing, and had merely applied as we heard this morning the standard formula as it were to Harrogate, as it had to all the other local authority areas in the county. And this application of standard formula upset Selby for reasons we heard this morning, and it upsel set us because it didn't seem to be taking the real situation into account. In particular erm we were worried that the county just had not acknowledged that one of the phenomena of the nineteen eighties had been that much of the industrial land in the borough of Harrogate converted to B one office use. Erm very extensive business park development took place, land values on these industrial areas rose accordingly and all manufacturing uses were either er destabilized because their land values now became greater than the businesses that were on them, or new manufacturing plant simply could not acquire the land at affordable prices because there were always people willing to buy it for B one. This was a very strong phenomenon in Harrogate and we felt the erm the county had not er understood that matter seriously enough. Secondly we were erm concerned that the county had not erm thought properly about employment densities, erm they have backed away from using employment density today as a significant calculator, but I hope you've noticed sir that the erm the county's mind set on employment densities is that whereas in the last structure plan they were working off a density, average density of thirty four workers for hectare. Erm in this round they are er working off a higher figure of forty three. Happens to be a reversion of the two numbers which is neat. [speaker001:] [cough] [Professor David Lock:] Whereas all the trends erm I would submit, sir in in economic activity, are suggesting that employ average employment levels and densities are falling, partly because of improved working conditions that workers require and also because of er modern processes and site layouts er have lower densities, all of which suggests that depression on the number of workers per hectare rather than an increase which is where the county's head is at. Thirdly we felt the county had not understood enough of the pattern of erm impending relocations within Harrogate Borough Council. Erm the economic development unit of the borough, Mr Allenby, should know more about it than me, but they have done studies of the firms in Harrogate that can be expected to seek relocation within the borough as they sort themselves out over the next five years, and erm their own calculations for the next five years is more than the county's whole calculation for the next fifteen years, which suggested to us again that there was a problem about the understanding that the county had on the matter of relocations within Harrogate compared with what was going on locally. And erm, the other aspect, the last aspect that gave us er anxiety was something I touched on this morning when I joined in at the end of the Selby discussion. And that is the erm absence of understanding it seems to us from the County Planning Department of the way the actual market works, and of the need for a local authority area erm in seeking to obtain employment for its people, the need for that area to be able to offer a variety of er employment land both in quality, size and location. This is an important point sir because there is a drift of much government policy towards the reuse of derelict urban land and the lady on my right here was making this point this morning to you. Erm as desirable as that objective is, the fact of the matter is that inward investors, given the choice of the derelict industrial site in a town centre in North Yorkshire or an out of town motorway junction site to exaggerate the difference, in another part of the country is as likely as not to choose the other place. Now this means that erm putting it in its simplest way that for any of the districts in North Yorkshire and for Harrogate and if I may presume to say so in Selby in particular where the need is greatest, the local authorities must have the ability to designate what is provocatively called green field land, if they so wish in their local plan, proper consultations and strategic policies, they must have that freedom to do that if they are to be able to offer in their district land which will prove attractive to erm employment generating uses. Now those were the issues that were leading us sir had left us to make an objection to this structure plan that we thought erm the detailed papers on it were sent to the county in our in our objections, they led us to by a series of calculations to come to the view that around about a hundred hectares would be more appropriate for Harrogate, this is in addition to its Greater York supplement, erm than what is now settled upon which is sixty hectares. However, having heard today sir that two things. Erm firstly that if an existing employment use falls to another land use, this is what Mr Allenby was just saying, the subsequent release of employment land onto the market does not come out of the sixty hectares the structure plan's asking for, that's what that's what Mr Allenby just said, I hope he won't come back on it, major point. Having heard that, and secondly due to your patience er through your patience getting clarification that it the borough could if it wished allocate its sixty hectares under this structure plan policy outside the town centres and that things that then took place in town centres would be extra, it's not something they have to do but it's a freedom they would have in their local plan, having heard those two things, the concern I've got that even at sixty hectares, Harrogate's allocation was too small erm really recedes very quickly sir, and would completely disappear and here Mr Allenby and I are at one, [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Professor David Lock:] if the way this discussion had worked out had got the strategic site policy on the table today as a discussion item, and if we were able to get clear that such a strategic site policy if it existed was in addition to the [speaker001:] [cough] [Professor David Lock:] allocations under I five, I would be wholly happy sir and would be able formally withdraw our objections absolutely. So in summary there are three, three little erm weights in the balance here as far as er as far as I'm concerned, and all three weights in the balance would shut me up completely. The first one we've had satisfaction on today, erm that new employ sorry existing employment land falling vacant and being redeveloped doesn't count against the sixty hecst hectares, secondly that the borough if it wished, subject to the local plan process and er county structure plan policies could choose to put its sixt sixty hectares outside the city centres or in part, and then the third weight sir which much hover in the air I guess till tomorrow would be er the arrival of the strategic site policy which would be in addition. Those three things would kill it sir altogether and two already are looking very optimistic. [Mr E Barnett:] The last could be the icing on the cake couldn't it? [Professor David Lock:] Yes it could. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Professor David Lock:] Couldn't put it better myself. [Mr E Barnett:] Would you like then an interpretation of what is meant by I five and I twelve in the context of your comments? [Professor David Lock:] That would really [Mr E Barnett:] By both the county and Mr Allenby? [Professor David Lock:] That would really help sir, thank you sir. [Mr E Barnett:] Who who is going to that one? Mr Potter first? [Mr David Potter:] Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm taking up Professor Lock's points of the way the figures were calculated. The B one development take-up is er I think a result of the the market in terms of B one is an attractive position for speculators, a great deal of that land has not yet been developed. I believe there is speculative developments appreciate that it is not likely to be developed for B one, it will become available for other uses. With regard to the thirty four workers forty three workers per hectare, the approved structure plan is based on forty three workers per hectare as a result of the Secretary of State's intervention in terms of, he agreed forty three workers per hectare, we simply carry that forward. The relocations issue, on relocations the County Council uses past land take-up, there will be an element of relocations included within that land take-up figure in so far as land which is vacated on small sites and falls to another use that is that is not counted. In terms of the economic activity projections, as a result of representations made to me by one of Professor Lock's colleagues, that was one of the main reasons I increased the assumptions on the eco economic activity based projection, to increase B one office relocations to a a far higher degree percentage than previously. So in fact I believe we have taken on all all of those issues. With regard to an absence of market demand, the economic development strategy produced by the County Council refers to inward investment, it refers to this as being a small portion of the portion of er job growth, the county is not necessarily best placed to attract inward investment in terms of the the type of economy that we have based on small firms and the availability of labour. The inward investment is will continue to be a source of new jobs and it is encouraged as a as making a contribution to new jobs, but is never going to be a major contributor to new job growth. So we have in fact taken on board what we consider to be the market demand issue. In terms of the land which is lost and will it be counted, er I would agree with David Allenby, in so in so far as where small sites are lost, they are in fact largely taken up in past land-take trends, but when a major site is lost, that at the moment forms part of the ninety one base of employment, and it it is something that we wouldn't have anticipated, therefore I think in terms of when we look at land availability figures and availability of supply erm we would have to look very carefully at land which is lost or significant land which is lost, or a significant number of jobs, it wouldn't necessary be added onto the structure plan requirement, but it could be deducted from the land availa land availability figures as land lost. [Miss D Whittaker:] Do you have a threshold for that? In terms of size or [Mr David Potter:] I think it depends very much on the circumstances. We would have to deal with that as and when it arose. [Miss D Whittaker:] Right. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Allenby? [Mr David Allenby:] Thank you chairman. David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Just a a couple of points. Er on density we have ourselves done some er survey work to show that a density of about forty three persons per hectare is about right. I think our survey showed it could be as high as fifty per hectare in fact, er but we didn't have a full response to the survey and er there's nothing er in the results that would lead us to a conclusion that it should be lower or higher, so we're quite happy to accept that assumption. Erm on the use of existing employment sites, I'd hate you to go away with the impression that er we were actively seeking to reallocate sites as they came forward, and that certainly isn't the case. We have a policy within our local plan and the council are committed to a policy in the district-wide plan to retain employment sites in employment use wherever we can. However there will be circumstances where sites are not suitable for continued employment use, er perhaps because of their impact on neighbouring residential areas, er and in those circumstances we would want to make compensating [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I take up this point about the forty three... forty three, the chairman is telling me thirty four. Erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] forty three thirty four [Miss D Whittaker:] As I understand it the structure plan is based on an average density employment density of forty three. [Mr E Barnett:] That's correct yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] Got the numbers in the right order. And I as I understand the County Council's justification, it is that this was what the Secretary of State changed it to in nineteen eighty seven. [Mr David Potter:] That's correct. [Miss D Whittaker:] I have been puzzling to establish and I have failed, whether on the fourteenth of January nineteen eighty seven when the Secretary of State wrote the notice of approval, which in confirms his view that forty three per hectare is right, whether the use classes order had then been amended. It seems to me, racking my memory that the use classes order post dates and therefore the introduction of class B one which was the main thing in the new use classes order, the chairman tells me it was nineteen eighty eight. In that sense, if my logic is okay so far, and it is the amendment to the use classes order which has significantly shifted how we regard employment development for planning, I wondered if the justification for the forty three per hectare, on the grounds that the Secretary of State imposed it, actually holds water, these days? Sorry that was a long and complicated version to your question. But was the question clear Mr Potter? [Mr David Potter:] The the question was clear yes and er I in fact I agonized over that very question myself when I was trying to put these figures together. The er the figure of for the the density assumption used in the structure plan was originally thirty four workers per hectare and was corrected to forty three workers per hectare. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr David Potter:] Erm that was based, the thirty four workers per hectare was based on a a survey of er employment site ac sites across the county. I try to update that wherever I can, and it is very difficult, we have to use the annual census of employment and historic records. On the information that I have, densities range quite considerably, from as low as ten workers per hectare up to a hundred workers per hectare, but on average somewhere around thirty four, forty three could be taken if one wished to choose an average. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] And as I was forced to do, adopting this approach, then that is the average I took. With regard to B one development, er I wrote around those areas where which to other county councils, structure plan societies which monitored B one development and where B one development had taken place, which was largely in the southeast. Again the densities that I was getting back from them varied considerably, from a hundred workers per hectare on some [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] B one developments again to much lower figures. Erm and given the wide range of densities, the only conclusion I came to was I should accept forty three workers per hectare. [Miss D Whittaker:] How would you answer the allegation that that is unduly restrictive, bearing in mind the sort of factors which Professor Lock referred to like us all needing and liking more space? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] And attractive surroundings and things like erm leisure facilities, save your heart exercise machines and all of that in our workplaces? Tennis court, I think you've got the message. [Mr David Potter:] Yes erm modern business parks, erm they come in various shapes and sizes, some in extensive landscape settings with a lot of space around them, er and some at er Clifton Moor in York which er are more compact. And erm we have er multistorey units. I the densities will vary, you know the multistorey units, two or three floors office building could have a degree of er more more space around it. It it is very difficult to determine exactly what er space requirements are. I think forty three workers per hectare is a reasonable [Miss D Whittaker:] The highest building I think I've seen is the Minster. Do we [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Miss D Whittaker:] want to encourage multistorey development? [Mr David Potter:] No but er I think [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Potter:] recognize that er [Miss D Whittaker:] yet again [Mr David Potter:] there are one or two around yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] I'm just trying, looking through your submission to see whether in fact you have produced a table which showed the possible land provision based on thirty four workers to the hectare. Have you have you got have you done that [Mr David Potter:] Yes the er that's a separate submission I've corrected today show's that. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yeah. Right. So in the context of thirty four workers per hectare as against forty three, [Mr David Potter:] Mhm. [Mr E Barnett:] doing a rough rule of thumb, and that could increase for example for example the Harrogate provision by a third couldn't it? [Mr David Potter:] Erm [Mr E Barnett:] Cos there's about a twenty five percent in workers per hectare, which actually would lead to about a third a third increase in the provision. [Mr David Potter:] The the Harrogate the Harrogate provision would rise from er the rest of the district outside Greater York, would rise from fifty two hectares to sixty six hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [speaker001:] A significant percentage increase. Yeah. It's about twenty five percent. [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry you said fifty two hectares for the rest of the district? [Mr David Potter:] Rest of the district, yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes, yes tabulation yeah, yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] Fifty two to sixty [Mr David Potter:] To sixty five. [Mr E Barnett:] What if [Mr David Potter:] Sixty six. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes.... Mr Allenby? [Mr David Allenby:] David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. It it helps chairman er I could refer to the survey that we did erm of I think it was six erm industrial estates or employment er estates around the district, and they vary from modern business parks which are mainly office type developments through to some traditional and trading type estates. Erm at Hornbeam Park at er at Harrogate which is very recent office park, er had a density of forty two workers per hectare, whereas erm Lane Industrial Estate at Ripon which is a traditional sort of market town trading estate had a density of only thirteen [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. 7 to the hectare, and th the range as David Potter said and very you know very significantly erm up to sixty or seventy per hectare down to thirteen which was the lowest. [Professor David Lock:] I beg your pardon [Mr E Barnett:] It's alright. Professor Lock. Just want to see whether Professor Lock was wanted any more er clarification on the responses he's had. [Professor David Lock:] Yes sir David Lock. I'm acutely aware of the Civic Society on my left desperate to get in. But erm the county didn't answer the er give us the clarification on the relationship between I twelve and I five erm that er we were asking for. Erm I've I particularly important because the districts here will need to feel very clear about what it is County Hall would not sorry would or would or would not jump on their necks for you see. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Professor David Lock:] This is terribly important. Er so any clarification you can give about er er Mr er with Mr Potter's comment that we would have to wait and see each one on its circumstances when we talking earlier about the industrial change of use makes me twitch, because it's lack of precision which all of us are trying to eliminate as much as we can in this process. So erm any er any clarification on the way the districts can use I twi er I twelve and I five as not being necessarily mutually exclusive wou would help. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er policy I five is primarily intended to deal with traditional industrial development, but it also recognizes that an element of B one development will take place on there, and as such development within the the business class be acceptable. Policy I twelve seeks to cater for the needs of central area office development. Traditionally the two things have been very separate. Erm i the definition is less clear now. The with regard to the control of I twelve it is a matter for the district council to determine in their local plans to where a central area is put erm whether a central area development should take place. [Professor David Lock:] I hope this is the last round sir. It begins to sound from this description that it's I twelve which is a bit of a dinosaur, a a dodo, that this is a county trying to carry on a thing which has probably passed its sell by date, that er it isn't fair to say that I five is primarily for industry, erm that isn't what the law says it is. You know whatever your intentions might be, a structure plan with that policy in it as was being discussed earlier, would admit all kinds of employment development within the relevant use classes order. Erm the er desire that I twelve conveys to encourage district councils to make special provision in their you know to emphasize high density employment in their city centres is understood, no quarrel with that, but if you can't, if you feel unable er at county level to be absolutely explicit, that a district would be free if it so chose, it might not choose to do so, if it so chose to make I twelve decisions that didn't come out of its I five, er they wouldn't have to come out of its I five allocations, unless you can be clear that they're free to do that, erm it suggests to me sir that may be it's I twelve that's that's getting in the way, erm and w that might well be something we can do without. [Mr E Barnett:] David Potter? [Professor David Lock:] Yeah David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. I I think I'm quite able to confirm that it is within the district power to to determine that erm the I five allocation should be separate from the I twelve. You are able. [Mr E Barnett:] You you're happy with that? [Professor David Lock:] Very happy. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Professor David Lock:] Delirious. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Cunnane. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Cunnane believes his point has been answered yes? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] We got out of the cul-de-sac? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] I thought the score was fifty. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Allen Allenby. [Mr David Allenby:] [clears throat] Dave Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Can I just say on this sir that we we see policy I five as our interp sorry I twelve, it's our interpretation that it's really a recognition that office development is appropriate in or adjacent to er town centres and that we won't be seeking to er identify offices in or adjacent to town centres and take that element off the I five provision. [Miss D Whittaker:] It will of course include other [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] types of B one use [speaker001:] Mm. [Miss D Whittaker:] in addition to office development. It would include as the policy is drafted light industry in town centres. Does Mr Potter accept it and he has no option use classes order? [Mr David Potter:] Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. I think yes er we have to accept that er the use classes order would allow that erm, but what we would anticipate is that in terms of I five, the local planning authority would be would allocate specific sites related to I five. [Professor David Lock:] Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah thanks. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Laycock. [Mr Laycock:] Thank you Mr chairman. One thing I've learnt in the last half hour is the speed at which the rules of debate seem to be changing and it will not surprise you to hear that as Mr Allenby and Harrogate District Council have moved towards Professor Lock's point of view, they have moved away from the Civic Society's point of view. Now I'd like to bring you back to Mr Williamson's opening remarks in which he described the allocations of land for industry and all these other things that are tied in with industry now as generous, making generous allocations, and the Civic Society would like to see those allocations rather less generous, we are like trying to develop a climate of restraint when on the expansion of Harrogate and the rate at which people are encouraged or wish to come into the town. Now we are of course talking principally on this sixty hectare allocation for the district outside the Greater York area because I think it is well understood this enquiry can have comparatively little impact on how much development takes place within the surroundings of Greater York, because I understand the site that's being discussed is already committed and it is in any case part of the York pool rather than the Harrogate pool. So we're talking about the sixty acre sixty hectares that are allocated for the rest of the Harrogate district and er I should like formal confirmation from Mr Allenby privately already that there is no question of any part of the York, Greater York area allocation being transferred into the rest of the district should it fall through for any purpose. [Mr David Allenby:] Should I deal [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr David Allenby:] Should I deal with that right now chairman? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes please. Yes [Mr David Allenby:] Yes David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Yes is that, that is my impression of the situation, the erm the basis of provision in the Greater York area is is that there is a site that is available and committed for er employment use. Erm if that site doesn't come forward, we won't be looking to transfer that allocation to the rest of the district. It'll have to be found somewhere else in Greater York. [Mr Laycock:] Thank you that clarifies the issue and concentrates our minds on this figure of sixty hectares. Now we in the Harrogate Civic Society would like to see the rest of the district allocation reduced at least to fifty hectares which has something to do with the forecast requirement on the grounds of past take-up, and I believe it is nearer the original figure for the rest of the district floated by the county in the initial consultations before amendment was made to the allocation between Greater York and the rest of the district. Ideally the Civic Society would like to see far more drastic policy change, possibly thinking in terms of forty hectares but we realize the minimum possible would be the thirty point five hectares which is hanging over from the first phase of the structure plan, and so that must of course be regarded as committed. Now we have consistently been somewhat sceptical about the genuineness of demand for land for industrial purposes. There has been reference in the Selby area for the likelihood that land initially allocated for industry will in fact be taken up for a supermarket. In Harrogate all too often it is car showrooms. There's a site to which this Society objected on Wetherby Road in Harrogate which we thought didn't need developing at all, but in practice the District Council decided they wanted it for industry because it considered the need for industry to be so great and we have along this frontage of Wetherby Road a row of three car showrooms and a token spot of industry behind it. Now we see that happening in an existing allocation and our scepticism towards further allocations is increased. Erm there are other cases where there is addit er existing land in office or industrial use owned by National Power where the owner is now asking for the land to be con taken out of industrial use and er transferred to housing. Now the District Council is thinking in terms of this as a reason why perhaps sixty ac sixty hectares may not be entirely enough and we should seek to compensate for transfers out of industrial land. The Civic Society takes the view that if land is being transferred out of industrial land and the District Council is going to allow this to happen, this casts doubt about how genuine the need is to find additional industrial land when land already allocated to industry is being lost. Now the point has already been raised and partly answered in the question in the case of Selby District Council as to whether it matters whether there is an over-provision of land for industry and other employment. Well one detrimental consequence of allocating more land for industry and employment is the a greater unpredictability of take-up. If you're going to have to find a much larger area you have to spread your net wider to find more and more sites for development which you might otherwise have been able to save from development, and there will an environmental cost, a cost to the quality of life of people living nearby because sites you might not wish to have developed must be included to find the target figure of industrial development. And if in fact this large area of industrial development is not taken up, you cannot be sure that the bits that are not taken up will be the least environmentally sensitive. It may be the ones that are environmentally sensitive will be taken up and other sites which are less environmentally sensitive will not be taken up, and er so we are anxious that we do not over-provide because we are anxious to save many attractive sites around Harrogate from development. And er I've already referred to a byproduct of over-provision that sites are then moved on to sh car showrooms and erm supermarkets which are needs which or demands which would probably not have justified the allocation of the land for industry in the first place but once the land is allocated to industry it seems to be thought that no harm would be done by allocating those to something else. Over-provision has a sort of knock-on effect that er whatever we provide this time, we shall be asked to provide at the next revision of the structure plan and so if we can keep some land back this time, then that might be what we offer next time, we have to roll forward the structure plan. And that is another reason why we are very keen to cut the allocations to land to the absolute minimum. Now there's been a lot of talk about the need to revive employment in Harrogate, and erm the possible future regeneration of the North Yorkshire economy as compared with the existing concern of Leeds and other authorities to regenerate the West Yorkshire authority. I would hate to feel that we were taking jobs away from Leeds in the sense that er people from Leeds felt compelled to move to Harrogate to do those jobs and I would cannot help feeling that elsewhere in Yorkshire, and I'm thinking particularly of South and West Yorkshire, there are many derelict industrial sites which re need to be recycled before we [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Laycock:] go too far along the line of er taking green field sites for new developments. Now a question of what are the industrial and employment needs of the Harrogate District? There's been a lot of concern over the past few months of the rate of increase in unemployment within the Harrogate District and how as a percentage unemployment has increased in the Harrogate District rather than other districts. Now I would say to sa say that that is almost a bit like the story of the boy crying that he didn't have many holidays because he didn't go to school and that because Harrogate's er unemployment is so low or has been historically so low compared with other areas, a relatively small increase in the number of unemployment has an enormous increase as compared with what it's been in the past and so the same number of people living in Harrogate who lose their jobs has an impact on the unemployment figures as perceived locally greater than a similar number of people losing their jobs in Leeds or Selby or somewhere else, and so I think to some extent this the rhetoric has outrun the reality on that point. I should also like to say that we are concerned about the question of how much industry should be in Harrogate and there's talk about avoiding the need for compu commuting. Now commuting is a consequence of human nature to a large extent, people choose to live away from their place of work and if they do choose to live away from their place of work then we'll need a much more authoritarian government than we are likely to see in the next ten or twenty years to stop people from living away from their place of work. And erm if we attract industry to the town, we'll attract people to the town to do the jobs and we'll have the commuting as well. And so I would like to discount all this talk about the need to cut down on commuting. I see this point of view from my own position as a third generation commuter between Harrogate and Leeds, and as a third generation commuter I don't feel that it is a commentary on any absence of jobs in Harrogate or any shortage of jobs in Harrogate that I work in Leeds and live in Harrogate, it's just something I've grown up to think of as natural. And many other people will choose to live in Harrogate even though they may have employment or L in Leeds or Selby District or Bradford District, and this will continue to happen. I do not think that the jobs that people in Harrogate will want to find will be jobs in the industrial area and they will tend to be office jobs, and to [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr Laycock:] some extent they will be found in existing sites. Now I think the regeneration of the economy of North Yorkshire in general and Harrogate in particular will be a part of the regeneration of the national economy, when things turn right for the nation as a whole, they will turn right for North Yorkshire as a whole and for Harrogate in particular. Erm any strategy for taking jobs away from other parts of the country towards Harrogate will not solve the nation's problems and it will not in the long term solve North Yorkshire's problems. I think as jobs come back, jobs will be found as the economy as a whole picks up. Jobs will be found in Harrogate as elsewhere, and if we're thinking of lumping in the B one office use and the other B uses in with the manufacturing, I think it's fair to say that office uses are going to be far denser in terms of number of jobs per hectare than manufacturing, and therefore the allocations may not seem to be as great as otherwise might have been demanded. I'll take a pause now [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr Laycock:] and then reply to any points that are made by anybody else. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you Mr Laycock. C could I just have your bottom line figure again then for I five. Fifty three? [Mr Laycock:] Well we'd like to see at lea at least down to fifty but we'd really like to probe and push towards forty if we could. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Allenby do you want to respond to any of those points which Mr Laycock has raised? [Mr David Allenby:] Yes please chairman. Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I've got a number of points I'd like to come back on. Erm the first relates to car showrooms. Erm I won't take up the point in relation to the particular site er Mr La Laycock was referring to but in general terms, car showrooms and people who work in car sho showrooms are taken into account in the calculation of employment needs, [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr David Allenby:] industrial and commercial employment needs of the area and therefore it is right that car showrooms can be provided on sites allocated under I five.... Er in relation to existing employment sites er and Mr Laycock referred to National Power, erm there we have an example of the attitude that the the council is taking towards the the re-use of employment sites. In fact we've just refused er the application er to change the use of that site to housing, or some of that site to housing, er for the very reason that we want to keep it in employment use and at the same meeting we also refused another site, another major employment site, erm and we want to keep that in employment use as well. So we we're taking a consistent line on existing employment sites, we do want to reuse them but we do recognize that there may be circumstances where that er that isn't the case. On migration, erm I really just wanted to make the point that erm the structure plan and er as supported by the local council is really seeking to meet the needs of the resident population. Erm the resident population will of course er include a significant proportion of people who are migrating into the district er as we saw last week. Erm the calculations that we have at the moment take on board the twenty five percent back in migration as proposed in the housing figures. If migration er increases to a hundred percent of past trends then the employment provision will have to increase also. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr David Allenby:] Er the council's primary concern through all of this is that at the moment there are four thousand unemployed people in Harrogate District. Er the unemployment rate while still relatively in relation to national and even er regional levels, has increased very rapidly over the last few years and in fact over the last two or three years we've had something like three thousand jobs lost i in Harrogate. Er the fact that we've had low unemployment rates is due er mainly to the fact that provision was made for employment er in past years, and we want to make provision now to ensure that unemployment is as low as possible in the future. Erm as to the assertion that Harrogate wants office jobs and not industrial jobs, and I think the main point there is that we we're simply trying to achieve jobs to meet the needs of our resident workforce. Erm if the if office jobs are appropriate then they'll be provided or we'll seek to provide them, erm some jobs will be industrial jobs and no doubt that there will be office jobs. It's not for the planning authority [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr David Allenby:] to say what sort of jobs should be provided, but simply to ensure that the jobs that are provided do not have adverse environmental consequences that are are unacceptable. Er and finally to say that the strategy th that we have is not to take jobs from other areas, it is simply to meet the needs of the resident workforce. We are not seeking to attract people in er from Leeds or Bradford or anywhere else. We're simply simply looking to meet the needs of people who will be living in our district. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Laycock? [Mr Laycock:] Yes I should like to come back on one or two of those points. The Civic Society was naturally very pleased t that we the council turned down the application on the National Power site. It is our feeling that the council needs to be encouraged to take that attitude because if we have a change of policy as the District Council are asking, so that the number of sites released from... industrial use is compensated by new green field sites being allocated, then it seems a little bit like a blank cheque to us and we should like to see a firmer control on the amount of land that is lost to development and in seeing that firmer control we'd like to put pressure on the District Council by not offering them compensation [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Laycock:] if they allow industrial sites to become something else. I do feel on the question of whether we are bringing people into the Harrogate area or catering for the needs of the residential population. The District Council's argument is in danger of going round in a circle. Catering for the resident population appears to be include catering for the population that will come into the town in order to do the new work that will be brought to the town by their policies. The he s Mr Allenby said, the resident populating includ including inward migrants. Inward migrants will include people who come into the district in order to do the jobs that are provided and there are many examples of employers coming to the town and bringing their own people into the town to do the jobs that are brought into the town. And there's concern about losing de Ministry of Defence jobs in Harrogate now. Well the Ministry of Defence came into Harrogate just over fifty years ago and the jobs were done to some e to a large extent by people who might never have come to Harrogate if the Ministry of Defence had not er brought them in. And to some extent if you do bring jobs into the town which bring new people into the town, when the particular employer that has brought these people into the town or the area closes down, then we have more jobs to find in the area. But the central argument on the industrial front is that if you bring a large number of extra jobs into an area where the unemployment is much below the national average, and much below the regional average, then you are going to bring people from the surrounding area in and many of those people we believe would far prefer to have found jobs nearer their existing homes. [Mr E Barnett:] [clears throat] Thank you. Mr Lock, sorry Professor Lock? No? Can I conclude on Harrogate then and we adjourn for tea until three thirty. Thank you. [tea break] Erm because he would like to make a comment on the exceptions policy, he hasn't been invited to participate tomorrow, er I have exercised some latitude and said yes I will be happy to hear what he has to say, erm there is a prescribed time limit of which he is aware. The rest of us will take note of what he has to say and we'll bear it in mind tomorrow. So I'm not looking for a response to what he says at this stage. Mr Laycock. [Mr Laycock:] Thank you very much Mr chairman. This follows on for from our concern about industrial development in the Harrogate District and that is that we are very pleased that the Harr that the North Yorkshire County Council has not embarked upon a strategic exceptions policy. I fear that a strategic exceptions policy can be all too easily a euphemism for giving big companies more favourable treatment than small companies. Erm so one suspects that if something of truly national importance really came, that it might any planning control might be overridden in the merits in the urgency of the case. The having adoption of a strategic exceptions policy is an invitation for many possible major developments to be to ride on the back of the strategic in exceptions policies and to argue that they come within in. And I fear that er it could be a a recipe for bypassing [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Laycock:] environmental constraints if the organization is big enough to qualify as strategic, and I am really concerned about the planning er application in which I know that Da Professor Lock is interested that I think developments of that scale have nothing to do with the employment needs of the district, that they would in fact involve bringing in large numbers of people from other areas who as I have said before, might appreciate jobs nearer their present places of employment, and it would also unbalance the Harrogate housing market and put on pressure for more land to be taken in and around Harrogate for housing for the people who'd come to that development. So I I'm extremely pleased that the County Council have not gone for a strategic exceptions policy. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. It is a theme which will be returned to tomorrow without doubt. Professor Lock is nodding his head. [cough] Can we now move to the other erm what I would describe as er item of contention, which is the amount of provision proposed for Richmondshire. Mr Steel. [Mr Steel:] Mr chairman, erm, all my comments er er relate to I five, not er to I twelve. Erm in moving from Selby and er these other matters to er Richmondshire, we're moving fr from the er macro to the micro. Er I almost said su sublime to the ridiculous but I thought that might be misinterpreted. [Mr E Barnett:] I would never describe Richmondshire as ridiculous. [Mr Steel:] Thank you chairman. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Steel:] If only everybody agreed with you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Steel:] Erm we've been given an allocation er in this er in these alterations of twenty five hectares. We feel this er this will hamper economic development in the district, it'll prevent us er achieving the proposals set out in er in our local plan and we're asking for thirty five hectares, an increase of ten hectares only. You've er got a copy of my written statement and I'll try to avoid repeating anything from that document, but it leans heavily on this which is the Richmondshire local plan interim statement. Erm it runs through the strategy that we're pursuing,i it er highlights the problems that er erm th that exist in the district, it stresses the need for flexibility and it concludes with an appendix which sets out the actual sites that we would like to see developed erm er over the next er ten years which is the length of the erm covered by the Richmondshire local plan. Having read through the er N Y N Y six and N Y seven, I've got to acknowledge that it's er far from easy to draw up a unified strategy for employment land in North Yorkshire and I can sympathize with the County Council er in their difficulties with the methodology and I think that they've adopted a very fair minded approach to this, they've er highlighted weaknesses wherever they occur, erm and I think that will be very obvious. That leads me to conclude that the only way to erm resolve matters is through consensus and I'm sure that that's essentially what we're about today. In fact erm, when I looked in detail at the written submission by the County Council, I found that er they ha th they said that they were placing emphasis on er on local factors. Now these local factors are not going to be strategic in nature er but they are important and er the er the County Council er concede this point. Erm in relation to Craven, the local view was taken into account, it says quite clearly in paragraph five of er N Y seven. Er in Hambleton's case, it's recognized that the allocation may be an over-provision but because of local plan proposals er an increase is merited, paragraph fifty one of N Y seven. Harrogate's figure er was increased after after representations by the er Borough Council, that's paragraph fifty six of N Y seven. Scarborough, adequate flexibility of land supply, that's a quote, it was referred to as a reason for greatly increasing the allocation above that which emerged from the er statistical work, paragraph seventy six of N Y seven and erm in Selby's case erm, land potentially available is recognized to be an important consideration, paragraph seventy eight of N Y seven. Er Mr Curtis opened er the session today er mentioning the the same sort of consideration had been given in York. Now when I was preparing this evidence, I got to this point and I thought to myself, why on earth has this not happened in Richmondshire? And I can only really regret with er with hindsight that er we as a District Council didn't pursue our point er more vigorously, erm as our general approach to these matters is er to cooperate as far as we possibly can rather than enter into conflict, and I think that perhaps we hadn't given as much emphasis to er the er our views as we ought to have done. Having said that, erm we we discussed these matters er in early nine nineteen ninety one at officer level, we set out a out a long letter setting out our concerns er in December nineteen ninety one. In relation to the consultation draft erm we er in April nineteen ninety two, we explained that we we believed that er erm the figure of twenty five hectares was not so far er adrift from our local plan proposals to merit an objection or merit treatment as a departure. Er that didn't draw any response from the County Council, so in er December nineteen ninety two when er when the deposit draft came through er we sought a clear understanding of the County Council position. We chased that letter in er March nineteen ninety three and er finally we wrote in July nineteen ninety three the letter which I've copied round er. Now you'll see in the final paragraph, er no in the second paragraph of that letter that er we're still looking for a er an amicable solution to erm to this whole thing. But we haven't had a response from the County Council. Now I'm I find it particularly strange that paragraph sixty one of N Y seven doesn't give any hint erm that the District Council was concerned about I I five figures until we were [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Steel:] small sites. The sort of sites you'd expect to see allocated in a local plan. Now I think that er the County Council have reworked their figures and are probably pretty close to us now on on these matters. Erm perhaps no more than two hectares adrift, so if I could just emphasize that that land availability figure is round about thirty five hectares. Erm the the County Council have er highlighted open countryside as as a consideration that concerns them and er that's in paragraph ninety seven of er N Y seven. And I think it's of particular concern in Richmondshire. That paragraph refers to high quality of environment and agricultural land quality as factors which would have a bearing on the distribution of er erm employment land, and I just want to er assure the panel that I don't think any of the allocations that we've made er on the strength of the erm er consultations that we've entered into would cause problems er for either qual high quality environment or high quality agricultural land. I regard them as quite firm and realistic er allocations. Erm I'd like to pitch another figure into the debate, er because I don't agree with the County Council on this either. Erm I've circulated a map which shows the nineteen eighty one figures for commuting. Erm the the erm... figure for the whole of the district which is taken from the nineteen eighty one census is fifteen percent of the workforce working outside Richmondshire. Tha that's a pretty simple sort of basis for assessment, but as you'll see from the map it's not by no means a consis consistent level and in the areas where we're erm where where the sites for the most part occur, er the c the level of commuti commuting is much greater than it is er outside those areas. The er the only figure that I I can find for commuting erm supplied by the County Council is in er table five of N Y six I think it is, N Y six, where the County Council give er at the bottom of that erm on the bottom line of that table, a figure for Richmondshire of er three point five percent. I'm I'm really mentioning th this for the record because I don't think it er it goes to the heart of the issue since erm the the erm Richmondshire allocation does not depend on these figures, but I do want to emphasize that er doing something about the commuting problem is an issue in Richmondshire. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Steel:] And just for the record there's an there's an error, a typographical error in the middle of that er table, there's a zero and there should another figure. Erm, having looked at all that, I think what the issue really boils down to essentially is the willingness of the County Council and I suppose the panel, having heard what er the debate, to accept what I think is really a modest level of flexibility er er requested by the District Council. That flexibility is needed for the following reasons. It er it meets the er the terms of government advice, it enables us to provide the sort of range of er sites that er we we feel we need to erm attack the problem of er economic development. It provides for alternative sites to be available in the knowledge that not all sites are gonna become available by the very nature of the exercise, that is what happens. It also has regard to the fact that er some land will be lost to development which is taking place under the terms of policy I four. Er nobody's mentioned this policy before, but I four relates to the expansion and relocation of existing firms. It's a c makes a considerable contribution [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Steel:] to erm the the pattern of development going on in Richmondshire and I suspect in other districts as well, having read through their their evidence. Erm it's also acknowledged in paragraph thirteen of N Y six, but this this factor means that some of the development which takes place on the on a land allocated for I five won't actually go towards meeting the I five target, it'll be lost in terms of I four. The these are all reasons why there needs to be flexibility. Erm I noticed er with interest that in the Greater York context the County Council seem happy to offer this flexibility, that there they call it a bias towards opportunities for development which I'm quite happy to accept that term if er if it er improves our position. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Steel:] Erm I've looked at the question of whether there's a down side to er what we're talking about, I've nearly finished chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] It's alright. [Mr Steel:] Erm, because the County Council [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr Steel:] they've talked about the problems of oversupply in two er two respects, sterilization of land. This is not er a realistic scenario in the Richmondshire context. Land er which is allocated for development through this plan will either remain in agriculture or er will be developed. I don't think there's a remote possibility that it's going to hang about in a kind of semi-derelict state er, because erm somebody's invested in infrastructure, altered its character but there are no takers for erm for the the development which follows from that. That's not a realistic position. Now the the second point raised by the County Council is the their concern that residential development will be unsynchronized with employment development. And I I noticed with interest er I'm really going shifting right back to er last week here, er the Housebuilders' Federation er were all sort of putting the reverse argument forward. They they erm er in their document identified er the fact that Richmondshire is getting six point one percent of the housing allocation and five point one percent of the employment allocation. I'm mentioning this simply to er highlight the fact that if there is a bit of an upward movement in er the employment allocation, it'll simply re-synchronize it with the housing allocation. Now I know those are pretty crude figures but it's an item of evidence. Erm the District Council isn't being arbitrary in er in this respect. We er we've tried to er to meet the the the County Council's requirements, we've scaled down our original er provision of erm employment land to take account of the emerging structure plan thinking. We er went as far as we could without er erm finding that we would have to delete allocations that we were making or produce unrealistic er development sites erm the the figure of er twenty five hectares simply means that we're ratcheting the the whole thing down to a point at which it can't be sustained. Erm I I know with certainty that the thirty five hectare that we're ask hectares that we're asking for can be achieved, because we know the sites that er that where development will take place. Erm the final point is that er the the er the County Council have suggested in paragraph five of N Y seven that certain matters could be held over to complete review of the er er structure plan. I would not want this er this issue to be treated in that way and I'm sure the panel won't do that. And a absolutely finally, all my comments have been related to the area of Richmondshire outside the Yorkshire Dales National Park. [Mr E Barnett:] You answered one of the questions I was going to pose to you. Erm in effect what you're s what you're asking for is the level of provision to return to something equivalent to what it is in the approved structure plan er and also would reflect fairly careful analysis of what you've done as to what would be reasonable allocations. [Mr Steel:] Absolutely chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Potter. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er taking some of the points that have been raised by Mr Steel. Erm Mr Steel's quite correct, in determining the appropriate level of provision for Richmondshire and other districts, we I essentially followed the the course of action which you've outlined in the background papers. Following the publication of er draft figures, I discussed these with the districts, and where it was felt appropriate to take on board s er suggestions made by the districts, this was done. A number of meetings have been held with District Councils over the period of the preparation of the plan. The amendments that Mr Steel refers to specifically, relating to other districts, were all made as a direct consequence of those districts making formal representations to the consultation draft. The formal representations made by Richmondshire suggested that there was no conflict with the proposed provision in the consultation draft and their local plan strategy. At the deposit plan stage, again no clear formal objection was made by the district as to the inappropriateness of this particular level of provision. The discussions between the County Council and the District Council go back some considerable time, over the proposed level of provision in the district statement erm the core strategy for employment, and there is a particular issue between us over the distribution of this land within the district, in terms of its compatibility with the structure plan strategy. The figures that er Mr Steel referred to on commuting flows neglect to refer to the inflow of commuters, the figures that I've used are a net is a net figure which reflects outflow and inflow. Work would be a crude er a crude assessment er between nineteen ei nineteen ninety one census of employment data and nineteen ninety one census data would indicate that there is a greater inflow of commuters now than in nineteen eighty one, although I accept that that is crude and I wouldn't like to [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr David Potter:] rely on that particularly. With regard to the Greater York bias, the Greater York bias he refers to is simply a bias towards where the opportunities for development exist in Greater York, it is not a bias in any other sense than in terms of its distribution. We had to look at where the opportunities were for development in Greater York as a whole rather than looking at individual district elements, and in terms of land available, erm Mr Steel appears to have included some sites which we classify as land held in reserve, which we don't normally count towards the land availability targets, although we do acknowledge that it is there. That is t to er that is land which is held for expansion purposes, clearly identified by firms as meeting their expansion needs. We note it but we don't include it within the land availability figures in relation to erm policy I four. And with ret with er land availability erm with regard to the land availability figures, Mr Steel also includes a s a site of some ten hectares which the County Council has formally objected to in terms of a planning application lodged and in terms of the distributional strategy of the local plan. If that is excluded, then we come back down towards the twenty five hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Steel? [Mr Steel:] Paul Steel, er chairman, Richmondshire. Erm just a correction er really chairman. I er I've discussed these availability figures and I think it's important in Richmondshire's case er to get the answer right. Erm, talked about them to County Council staff only today. The there is a core of them which is land available in terms of this document. That is something like twenty five twenty seven hectares. The land held in reserve in Richmondshire's case is not just land held in reserve for existing firms to expand on, but also includes three sites which are identified in this document as being reserved for development after two thousand and one, between two thousand and one and two thousand and six. Those three sites amount to eleven plus hectares. That's where I get my erm total of thirty s thirty five [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Steel:] give or take.... The second point I can't just er [Mr E Barnett:] Is the question or the point that Mr Potter raised about the ten hectare site to which the County Council objects? [Mr Steel:] Yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] Is that is that part of your thirty six hectares? [Mr Steel:] It's part of the thirty six hectares chairman but it's only a seven hectare site. [Mr E Barnett:] Seven hectare site. [Mr Steel:] We're straying into what I think are probably local plan issues here really, [Mr E Barnett:] Mm, yes, yes. [Mr Steel:] er arguing about the merits of individual sites. Er I could go on at great length about it if you wish me to but I'm sure you don't. [Mr E Barnett:] No, no. Mr Potter, can I come back to you. Bearing in mind that Mr Steel probably on his own admission has said he's been a bit late out of the starting blocks in order to make his bid for a review of the allocations, er I mean how do you feel in response to that? Would you be minded to move move the Richmondshire figure back to where it is in the at least in the [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] approved structure plan? [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm the approach we've adopted is to try and be as flexible as possible in terms of the using both the land-take and the economic activity rates. Er and in the lack of any specific response or request from the District Council on the flexibility issue, we I feel that those that allocation of twenty five hectares [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] is broadly appropriate, but I would add that within the letter to the District Council objecting to the particular site, I do acknowledge that there is no suitable site available in the district for the the park. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Miss D Whittaker:] I think the question which is critical to us is how would an additional ten hectares in Richmondshire harm the strategic objectives of the County Council? [Mr David Potter:] I think it depends where it is. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] Are you saying it is impossible for Richmondshire to find an additional ten hectares? [Mr David Potter:] No. [Miss D Whittaker:] Would doing that which would be acceptable to you, [Mr David Potter:] Yes, if it provided the additional flexibility [Miss D Whittaker:] would doing that harm the County Council's objectives? [Mr David Potter:] I think looking at it in terms of an overall position, I think that. [Miss D Whittaker:] I beg your pardon? [Mr E Barnett:] The answer is no. [Mr David Potter:] I think the answer is no in local terms. [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you. [Mr E Barnett:] Now er the other districts have sat patiently and quietly through this discussion. I've taken the view that since you all appear to be happy with the provision made for you in I five, you don't wish to make any comment? Or do you want to have a chance to say something in the light of the way the discussion's progressed during the day? Right, now then can I pose a question to you, Mrs, well it's a collective question really for all the districts. If the density of workers to the hectare was changed from forty three to thirty four with a consequent increase in the allocation of provision, could you cope with that?... Would it, are there any districts where that would raise serious problems?... Yes it would be equivalent actually Mr Steel to the, well yes. Mr Curtis cannot get another [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] I'm not gonna stop you from talking Mr Curtis but I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Curtis. [speaker001:] Thank you chair, David Curtis, York City Council. Erm my only comment really would obviously be in relation to the Greater York situation. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm if I understand it correctly from from Mr Potter's er table nine, the implication would be that the the Greater York figure would go up to a hundred and sixty one hectares based on thirty four to the acr hectare, that is correct? [Mr David Potter:] That's correct yes. [speaker001:] Clearly that would require a further erm sixteen hectares to be found compared to the hundred and forty five because the hundred and forty five did include an allowance for flexibility in the first place? [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] Erm, there are no agreed sites at the present time. There are other sites which my authority might note on that basis but which are not agreed with the County Council so I would be quite content with an increase in the Greater York figure on that basis. But clearly the County Council may not agree with me. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes.... I won't ask you Mr Heselton, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Two hundred to two hundred and fifty is very flexible. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Williamson. Er yes chairman erm I don't think erm Ray Williamson, Scarborough Council. Erm I don't think we have any real difficulty with dealing with an extra erm as I calculate it around about fifty acres. Yes hectares, not acres. Well no I don't Alright. think we we're talking about hectares in this case, we'll be talking around about twenty twenty hectares. Yeah. And I do I don't think we'd have any particular difficulty in coping with that increase. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mr E Barnett:] Erm thank you. Mr Steel. [Mr Steel:] Paul Steel, Richmondshire, chairman. Er [clears throat] the County Council did not use the erm calculation of need which would be affected by the proposition you've just put forward based on land-take, past land-take. Past land-take is an absolute thing which doesn't depend on density [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Mr Steel:] so I'm ducking out of. [Mr E Barnett:] You are right, okay. How about Craven? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Er Sharon Watson, er Craven District. Erm I think based on table nine erm the increase er by thirty four workers per hectare would cause Craven some problems. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Er in environmental terms [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Joe Cunnane:] erm we're already [clears throat] to release green field site which has been fairly environmentally sensitive [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Joe Cunnane:] er we'd have to insist upon a extensive landscaping compensations, erm er to in order for it to be to go ahead, er so I think the increase we would be looking at environmentally sensitive site. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes. I mean s sorry, just just to press you erm you wouldn't be unhappy if you stayed at twenty five hectares would you? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] No. No we'd be happy with twenty five hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Right, thank you. Mr Smith Mr Smith. [Professor David Lock:] Ian Smith, Ryedale. I'm not quite sure what how much the figure for Ryedale within Greater York would actually go up, erm placed on thirty four workers per hectare. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Potter you [Mr David Potter:] Er David David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm the figure for Ryedale [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] would increase overall by about five hectares or so. [Mr E Barnett:] In the Greater York area? [Mr David Potter:] Erm no outside Greater York. [Mr E Barnett:] Outside Greater York yes. [Professor David Lock:] I th I think outside Greater York we could probably cope with that. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] The figures we were given this morning indicate that in within the Greater York area, the increase would be from sixteen point three to twenty point six. [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Professor David Lock:] I mean, Ian Smith, Ryedale. We're already accommodating erm [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Professor David Lock:] forty three hectares of land in Greater York anyway, erm I'm not sure [speaker001:] [cough] [Professor David Lock:] how we would accommodate much more with a very tight greenbelt on the erm the sites that we've actually allocated on our side of Ryedale and take account of greenbelt so. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Allenby? [Mr David Allenby:] Chairman, David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. No I don't think it would cause us er any real problems, we're talking about er an increase of about five hectares, my understanding, er I think that could be accommodated er in line with what we already intend to do erm in the local plan anyway. [Mr E Barnett:] My arithm my arithmetic makes it about nearly fourteen hectares. [Mr David Allenby:] I think that's a [Mr E Barnett:] Am I interpreting these columns wrongly Mr Potter? Fifty one point nine nine to sixty five point seven five? [Mr David Potter:] Yeah, sixty five point seven five er the rest of the district. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yeah. [Mr David Potter:] If if you add on the Greater York requirement of thirty hectares it goes up to about ninety five hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yeah. [Mr David Potter:] So overall it's only about five hectares. [Mr E Barnett:] Five thank you. [Mr David Allenby:] Yeah it's five. [Mr E Barnett:] Okay, yeah. Mr Jewitt. [Miss D Whittaker:] Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Er well chairman it doesn't really affect the Hambleton figure. Erm the worker density figure really relates to the job gap calculation erm which for Hambleton showed substantially less than the seventy hectares provided for in er the proposed policy, it showed thirty one hectares. Er if the council didn't have any confidence erm in this figure but if erm you apply the er revised worker dens density to the thirty one hectares, you get thirty nine hectares, which reduces the gap [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] between the job gap [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] calculation and the land-take calculation so it wouldn't present us with any erm particular [Mr E Barnett:] No, no. [Miss D Whittaker:] problems. [Mr E Barnett:] In fact you're happy with your seventy hectares? [Miss D Whittaker:] Er absolutely. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.... Mr Laycock? [Mr Laycock:] Yes I think you can guess what the Harrogate Civic Society is [Mr E Barnett:] Yes I can. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Laycock:] but er if er we would oppose the recalculation on the basis of the lower density [Mr E Barnett:] Yes, yes. [Mr Laycock:] most of the jobs that are likely to be needed in the s in the Harrogate area would be office or administrative jobs where a higher density would survive. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Thank you. Now erm yeah, Craven? [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Sharon Watson, Craven District. Can I just er clarify a point? Erm the table nine that er the county produce this morning erm has erm a reassessed requirement for Craven based on erm economic activity monitor data, plus relocation allowances. Now we would be happy with the thirty three hectares for Craven, twenty five hectares [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] support. [Mr E Barnett:] You've made that clear yeah. Yeah. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I just wondered whether that point. [Mr E Barnett:] Er well there are still, come back to the county, can we now round off on the question of... keep losing my crib sheet here... the effect what effect if any will the proposed scale of provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. Mr Girt, you have er your chance, to kick off on this one. [Mr David Potter:] Thank you chair, Dave [Mr E Barnett:] I take it I take it you're representing Leeds or are you speaking also on behalf of your colleague from Bradford? [Mr David Potter:] I'm speaking on behalf of Leeds City Council. [Mr E Barnett:] Right thank you. [Mr David Potter:] Erm [clears throat] you'll recall the City Council's objection was both to the level and the distribution of employment land in North Yorkshire, er in particular as far as it relates to the likely effects on regeneration in West Yorkshire and in Leeds in particular. You've heard before that Leeds works within the rules of the framework set down by regional planning guidance, and that makes very and the main stream of that guidance is the revitalization of our inner areas. Regeneration's still a major problem in Leeds, if I could just give you some some rough and ready figures chairman. A quick calculation suggests there are over a hundred and sixty brown field sites of an industrial type and they amount to something like three hundred and sixty hectares. So we got a very substantial problem still to overcome in Leeds. I haven't heard yet from anybody that regeneration's properly been taken into account in the calculations within local level or county level. It simply hasn't been demonstrated that any cognizance has been made of R P G two, therefore that these concerns still remain on the table. [Mr E Barnett:] Can I have, can I have a county response to that point? [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm perhaps I can turn the the question on its head and and I think the way the County Council's looked at it, what would be the implications of not providing for the needs of North Yorkshire, and that's I think the approach that we have taken in the first instance, is to try and determine what the needs of North Yorkshire are and to borrow a phrase from Professor Lock, in strategic terms to look at er try to achieve full employment in North Yorkshire. That has been a primary objective. [Miss D Whittaker:] Are you arguing Mr Girt that the level of provision of employment land proposed by North Yorkshire County Council is excessive, bearing in mind your request that the County Council should at the same time cater for one hundred percent of past migration trends, including that coming from the Leeds Metropolitan Area? Or are you saying that the level of provision the County Council propose for employment is excessive bearing in mind that they do not propose to cater for one hundred percent migration? [Mr David Potter:] Erm, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. make it look simpler than that. We're simply saying that it's not been demonstrated that regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account. We're not saying the figure's necessarily excessive, we're simply looking to see how regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account, if at all. And then we can be in a position to to judge. [Mr E Barnett:] And how, how [Miss D Whittaker:] Erm [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] figure er to some extent is plucked from the air, it's a figure in excess of the two basic ingredients of the job gap and the [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] take-up trend er ingredients [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] to the formulation of the figure. Other [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] Other aspects necessarily need to be taken into account. And Leeds acknowledges that one of the things the other things that needs to be taken into account by North Yorkshire if if R P G two is to be conformed with, is the need to revitalize West Yorkshire. [Miss D Whittaker:] But I'm sorry, I think it's necessary for me to pursue the point I was making. If the panel is satisfied and indeed you are satisfied that the level of provision in North Yorkshire is necessary to provide employment for those persons who will be resident in North Yorkshire, what is the problem? [Mr David Potter:] Well, if the panel's satisfied, Madam, chair erm there's no problem. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Potter:] At the end of the day [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] each district, Metropolitan District and County District will want some freedom to determine its figures. We're simply saying it's government policy that North Yorkshire takes account of the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire. At the moment there's no indication that they've done anything, it's almost as though that particular prescription was. [Miss D Whittaker:] I sense that you are suggesting the County Council should have done more than write a paragraph or two [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] in the explanatory memorandum of alteration number three, which say we have had regard to the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire? Nevertheless we have arrived at the same figures. [Mr David Potter:] Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. Yes it wasn't more than a token reference. We need to see that they have taken it into account. [Miss D Whittaker:] What [Mr David Potter:] so far as they have made some er adjustment, we will be able to judge whether the scale of adjustment they've made was a was a reasonable thing. [Miss D Whittaker:] I'm sorry. Can you be more explicit about what it is you want to see in the North Yorkshire structure plan? [Mr David Potter:] I'm not, City Council, I'm not sure that I can be more specific about we need to see some reference and some [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] indication of some adjustment to a calculation of er employment land allocation. [Mr E Barnett:] In other words what [Miss D Whittaker:] I take [Mr E Barnett:] I mean what you're looking for is a reduction or what you would have liked to have seen a reduction in the land allocation for employment needs, and yet in the other breath you are saying to North Yorkshire, you should really cater for one hundred percent migration. Now you can't have it both ways, surely? [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr David Potter:] Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. We're not asking R P G two has to have it both ways if if that idea is er is there at all. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Williamson. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Yes thank you chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Take us out of this maze. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Joe Cunnane:] I'm not sure I can take you [LAUGHTER] take you out of it []. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Er all I can say chairman is that the County Council is is working within the approved structure plan strategy which is based on restraint, based primarily on housing restraint but I think that's what the County Council has done in its er employment land proposals is to set certain parameters which appear to us to really reasonably meet requirements of this authority's resident population. Erm we are not going any further than that erm we the debate this morning erm we were looking at the differences between ourselves and then for example Selby District of what what they would like to see which was er certainly more than growth oriented the County Council's proposals are. Erm we've feel we've gone as far as it's practical to go to to meet erm what are after all the genuine needs of genuine needs of our own population. Now if we don't do that of course we er we're going to change lots of patterns, we're going to potentially increase er commuting out of the area into Leeds, that's not something which we feel is consistent with er planning policy guidance in the realm erm, I don't think there's anything as far as I know in R P G two which er says that adjoining authorities around West Yorkshire shouldn't er seek to make provision reasonable provision for their own er residents' needs. [Mr David Potter:] Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. No there is. Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. No there isn't a specific statement in er R P G two. There is a statement that asks and directs the County Council to take account of the need to r revitalize West Yorkshire and as far as we can see that hasn't been done. Now I I don't want to tell the County Council how to do it, I mean I think that's that's up to the County Council [Miss D Whittaker:] But I'm begging you to tell the panel how to do it please. [Mr David Potter:] Well it's not my job. [Miss D Whittaker:] As I understand it a and please correct me if I've got it wrong, in the interests of the Leeds Metropolitan Area, you have argued that North Yorkshire should make greater provision for residential. Is that correct? [Mr David Potter:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] You have also argued that any generation of increased commuting [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] should be avoided. Is that correct? [Mr David Potter:] Madam, chair, we would certainly wish to commuting as far as that's possible. [Miss D Whittaker:] D does is not follow from that that you would argue that North Yorkshire to av to achieve those two ends needs to make adequate provision for the employment of the people it will house? [Mr David Potter:] Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. I think it's a question of degree. Commuting will continue, the the boundaries of local government areas bear no relation to social geography. Leeds City Council does not expect within its plan period nor does it expect within the period of the North Yorkshire alterations, commuting will disappear. It will continue, but the kinds of jobs which are available in Leeds city centre, er in in some ways are unlikely ever to be provided in particularly in rural districts, precisely because Leeds is the regional capital. Some of those [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. [Mr David Potter:] jobs are not jobs you would expect to find in villages or large towns [Miss D Whittaker:] Can I just [Mr David Potter:] so commuting will always continue. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes. Can I put it another way to you, that if houses are provided for people who have migrated from West Yorkshire to North Yorkshire, that the failure to provide for employment of an equivalent level, because I well appreciate we are not going to stop Mr Laycock driving or commute I beg your pardon commuting each day from Harrogate to Leeds, that failure failure to provide an adequate level of employment for those new residents would be contrary to the advice in P P G twelve and P P G 14 about reducing the need to travel? [Mr David Potter:] I accept, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council, yes I accept that that would be consistent with the government's advice in those particular P P Gs. Now could I could I just er enlighten that? [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes of course. [Mr David Potter:] Erm you you bring me onto the second dimension of Leeds' objection which is to do with the distribution of those jobs. Leeds has asked that migration continue to be accommodated in Craven, Harrogate and er Hambleton but we've objected to the idea of a new settlement in Selby and our main concern is with major employment focused in the Leeds York corridor, and that's the substance of our objection. The scale of employment suggested in Selby seems not to be er reflecting the restraint policy suggested in R P G two. Now to some extent our concerns have been diffused, it seems that we misunderstood the distribution, er we now know, thanks to this morning that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is on the inside edge of the York greenbelt and not footloose in the Leeds York corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Mr David Potter:] Erm to that extent Leeds concerns are much diminished. I'm I'm a little unclear exactly how much footloose allocation remains in Selby, I I er think I understand it to be quite small, taking account of, but I would simply say to the panel Leeds' concern is that we should not be a counter focus in that corridor, which er most most greatly bear on our attempts to regenerate our inner areas and use our our many brown field sites. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah that's okay. Mr Cunnane, and then Mr Heselton and then Mr Williams. [Mr Joe Cunnane:] Er Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Erm the point I would like to make is is is in part made by Mr Girt, and that is that er with particular reference to Selby. Er Selby have as I und as I can see it today, failed to establish any need for the bid for two hundred two hundred and fifty hectares which they've put forward. The figure which has been put forward by the county of a hundred and twenty two hectares for Selby deals with three elements. It deals with local need, it deals with planned migration and it deals with unemployment. And therefore it must by definition be the case that anything over and above the one hundred and twenty two which I know Selby have not challenged on on on the basis of the assessment, er anything over and above that hundred and twenty two must siphon investment and economic activity from somewhere else because it's not local, it's not it's not unemployed, it's not local needs and it's not migration. And our concern is that if that figure is appro is is agreed or recommended by the panel or it's gonna to be taken by the county that there is something in the order of a hundred and thirty hectares of employment land which is going to take investment from somewhere. It may not be from West Yorkshire but it's very likely that it will be. It could be from South Yorkshire. [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton? [Mr Terry Heselton:] Er thank you sir. Erm Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm in response first to Mr Mr Cunnane's point. Erm cos I I think Mr Mr Potter and others have already referred to the fact that it there's no evidence as yet that er demand is being siphoned off from from West Yorkshire to Selby. Erm coming back to Mr Mr Girt's points [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr Terry Heselton:] erm if we can't satisfy him in terms of what we've already submitted to the panel satisfy him in in terms of our actions. Er for the panel's information, Selby District er at any rate has not objected to Leeds City's proposals in in their U D P for development in within their administrative area which as I mentioned this morning are very substantial. Er approximately eight hundred hectares I think, and I suppose the cynical amongst us might might say what has the allocation of of nearly a hundred hectares of land adjacent to the A one, some of which is in in greenbelt, what has that got anything to do with the er vitality of of Leeds commercial centre or urban regeneration, but we accept that's a that's a matter for Leeds, we not objecting to their proposals. But by by the same token, as as I've already set out in in my submission, we we believe there is an urgent need and a justifiable demand in Selby District and that's partly related to the need to have a distribution of available employment opportunities throughout the district. Er much reference has already been made to this er golden corridor between Leeds a and York and I I really fail to see th that it is going to pose the the threat that some people think it will and and the analysis that we've carried carried out has has thrown up two two figures, one in the region of twenty er a need of twenty to twenty five hectares in what describe as a northern centre based on on Tadcaster and I think we acknowledge that er we may struggle to achieve those twenty to twenty five hectares in and around Tadcaster, partly because of greenbelt constraint and and partly because of other constraints. And coming back to the twenty to twenty five hectare requirement within Greater York, as I've already mentioned most of that is is in fact al already committed so I I really don't see the problem in in the Leeds York corridor. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Before before Mr Williamson sums up, we've one or two questions. [Miss D Whittaker:] In relation to policy I five if I may. And in posing these questions I well appreciate that the terms in which I five is presented are exactly those in the approved structure plan, with the exception of the deletion of the specific references to certain town centres and provision. Nevertheless [Mr E Barnett:] Sorry are you talking about I twelve? [Miss D Whittaker:] I beg your pardon, I twelve. Nevertheless undaunted, since things have moved on a bit since nineteen eighty seven, I suppose what I'm looking for is some guidance as to the way in which policy I twelve has operated in practice. [speaker001:] [cough] [Miss D Whittaker:] And if I can identify some of the thoughts which occurred to me and they are relatively minor points about the wording of I five in relation to the first two criteria. [reading] Would significantly improve the scale and range of local job opportunities. [] Have there been any difficulties in the interpretation and application of that policy in relation to the scale of what is really there on the ground? I think for example of the sensitivity of some of the small market towns, the point for example that was made to us last week about the sensitivity one settlement with which I've come increasingly familiar over the last fortnight and that is town centre. Is that a problem, or is it not a problem? The second thought is in relation to the second criteria, in view of the move of government policy in particular P P G 4 would it be helpful sensible to include the word under-used in terms would increase the use of vacant under- used or derelict premises and sites? And my final point is in effect a question. Do do these criteria operate independently or do they all have to be met to be acceptable? And a final thought, did I say the last one, that one [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Miss D Whittaker:] was the final thought? This is this is the final final thought. No it isn't, it's gone. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] Professor Lock would erm have something to say if I raised the final one so I shan't do that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Potter. [Mr David Potter:] David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I think I ought to be brief on this. One of the problems with I twelve and the numerical content of I twelve is that it's very difficult to differentiate between offices and services, it's proved impossible to monitor. We have no information on the way in fact the way in which I twelve worked. Er when it comes down to application at the local sense then at the local level, I think my colleagues might be able to er give more enlightenment on that. In, with regard to the change of wording, erm I think that would probably add to the policy rather than detract from it and I I think the conclusion I would come to is that the criteria are independent they're not and or or. Er I think that's all I can say on it. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for that. Do any of the District Planning Officers want to comment? Mr Curtis. [speaker001:] David Curtis, York City Council. Erm clearly in York we are dealing with a different scale of of urban centre than the one the Senior Inspector was referring to. All I would say that er notwithstanding the conservation constraints within the city centre, we have not found this policy erm unhelpful as it were, we have been able to conform with the terms of this policy and allow appropriate levels of er commercial development within the city centre. And I would also support Mr Potters in the addition of the under-used term would I think be beneficial to the policy. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Jewitt? [Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you chairman. Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Erm with reference to er Easingwold. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] Erm the si the iss er the point raised by the Senior Inspector. I I would say it's not been an issue, erm in the small market towns and i the er criterion erm I therefore has not presented problems er to Hambleton. I would say though erm that erm if we were faced with er significant erm office er proposals that generated er generated a significant number of jobs then er the environmental issues would be weighed by the policies in the plan and er they would need to be weighed against the job creation. Erm I don't think er on balance I don't think that that criterion causes any problems. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Er policy I twelve I don't think has caused us any particular problems in Skipton which is where the main office developments have been er taking place, I think I would reiterate some of the comments [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that Mr Jewitt made. Erm the inclusion of under-used land in er criterion number two I think would be helpful. [Mr E Barnett:] Can I say don't feel obliged to answer if if I take it that your silence means acquiescence then I'm quite happy. Mr Allenby? [Mr David Allenby:] David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I just wanted I was trying to rack my brain to see when er we've had real regard to this policy [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Miss D Whittaker:] It must be a good [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Do you do you want to rephrase that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Allenby:] Yes erm when this policy has been a significant issue in dealing with either the local plan or er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Allenby:] planning applications, erm the sort of locational aspects are important, the the existing policy in the structure plan did have some sort of control over the the number of jobs, but it's as as David Potter has said, it's been very difficult to monitor er the level of jobs being provided, and in practice it's been really impossible to implement that aspect of of the policy. Erm I don't think that the poli ha policy has caused us any problems in the past and I don't think the policy as proposed now will cause us any problems either. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. Can I put it another way, has it got more benefits than dis- 5 Erm, D [Mr David Allenby:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Williamson or Mr, sorry Mr Laycock did you want to say something? [Mr Laycock:] thanks Mr chairman an or between one and two and an and between two and three please. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] You want an or between one and two [Mr Laycock:] Yes. [Mr E Barnett:] and an and between two and three. Comments please. That's making it er or well it's or and isn't it? [Mr Laycock:] Mr chairman that it should comply with three and one of the other two. [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Mm. I I took Mr Jewitt's contribution or comment really on that to to almost confirm the way in which you suggested the additional wording, but I paused. [Miss D Whittaker:] I'm sorry chair [LAUGHTER] Michael Jewitt, Hambleton. I'm sorry chairman, you've lost me there I [Mr E Barnett:] Well you said that er as I recall, that if you had a major proposal say for example within the centre of Easingwold, [Miss D Whittaker:] Yes, yes of course. [Mr E Barnett:] then you would take account of environmental issues. What Mr Laycock is suggesting is that a proposal will significantly improve or [Miss D Whittaker:] Yeah. [Mr E Barnett:] so you've the flexibility there. [Miss D Whittaker:] Yeah well I I would suggest that criterion three is perhaps implicit in the other policies of the plan and may not be [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] needed [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [Miss D Whittaker:] in any event. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. Yeah. Alright. [Mr Laycock:] Mr chairman if we do leave out number three it would be suggests that one and two are exceptions to the rest of the policies. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. We we take the point. Mr I think we can sorry Professor Lock. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Professor David Lock:] David Lock sir, it's like a game of poker this, I wasn't sure how long to sit there with my face straight. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Professor David Lock:] Erm the fact of the matter is sir as you'll have detected from today's earlier discussions it rather suits me policy I twelve because it gives a local authority the ability to plan for employment development in addition to their I five allocation. Erm however erm it it does sound as though it's one of these policies where as I suspected and said earlier today that it really doesn't have any effect on anything and it's probably something that could be erm crossed out and nobody would even notice it had gone. However as the you've heard so much needed [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Professor David Lock:] provision for employment land made under policy I five. And that would put into that policy the flexibility that we have been given orally today and which Selby and myself and I think Richmondshire I'm not sure, were were erm seeking for a local plan level determination. Thank you. [Miss D Whittaker:] [whispering] Mr Curtis. [] [Mr E Barnett:] Mr Curtis? [speaker001:] Thank you chairman, David Curtis, York City Council. Just just a little bit concerned about the suggestion that I twelve might actually be dropped in that it is my understanding and Mr Potter hopefully will confirm this, that in calculating the land requirements of I five, he has specifically excluded [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] activities that would be covered by I twelve, therefore if you removed I twelve you would require recalculation of the [Mr E Barnett:] Yeah. [speaker001:] areas under I five. [Mr E Barnett:] I think if I was about say Professor Lock that if I twelve was dispensed with you might notice a difference in terms of the application of I five. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Can we move now to summing up by North Yorkshire? Yes, alright. And there was the er question which we posed at two o'clock, which was your reaction, reflections on the method of calculation of land provision that Professor Lock floated this morning. [Mr David Potter:] Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. I was rather hoping you'd forgotten that one. As as I see it er it's and I I may be corrected on this, Professor Lock's hypothesis is that we over-provide land and then limit release once an [Mr E Barnett:] Yes. [Mr David Potter:] agreed level of jobs is achieved. Erm having considered this, I think that what we've tried to do in the economic activity projections is to try and estimate job need and to try and balance that with an appropriate level of provision to meet that need. If we were to deliberately over-provide, then I think it would be difficult to put a brake on this once a certain level of jobs had been reached, once the land is committed, there is a certain certainty attached to that commitment and I wonder how that would sit with the er guidance on development plans. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr David Potter:] Er secondly, land could be allocated to meet a range of needs in a variety of locations and after monitoring, if we had met a certain level of job targets, those jobs may be on a limited number of sites. We may be in the position where the jobs are not necessarily all in the right place. All the sites that are left are those which are better related to the urban areas or where the needs are. Erm market demand will take the easier site to develop first. Er and thirdly I think I've covered that already, it's it perhaps fails to provide the certainty which we the development plan system is supposed now to to. [Mr E Barnett:] I think it might tax the policy writers' ingenuity to write it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr David Potter:] I think the the problem that we've already tried to address today is how to calculate the need. [Miss D Whittaker:] Mm. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Now do you want to round up. [Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you chairman. Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman, I don't really want to say very much er by way of rounding up I think that we've had a very significant er debate here today, there's been a lot of discussion on very important issues, erm I think throughout that we we've managed to get er a certain number of of issues really er in my view at least anyway sorted out. Erm what I would ask the panel to to look at first of all is the fact that the erm the proposals for I five and I twelve appear to be largely acceptable over quite a large area of the the county. We've heard erm quite a lot of support from most of the Districts er and there's been no er particular sort of opposition to to what we've been proposing er in those particular areas from any other source. Now Greater York chairman, er we've had an interesting discussion this morning, the, what I would say there is the allocation of a hundred and forty five hectares to Greater York is in fact the product of several years of of quite detailed study by the Greater York authorities on on a joint basis. Er a lot of effort's been put into it, er we believe that it is erm certainly feasible, it's consistent with the local strategy of restraint within this alteration is is placed and again the figure is is supported by all the the Greater York authorities. Er I think it's also worth noting again chairman here that er in fact most of the hundred and forty five hectares that we've been talking about er is in fact already committed [Mr E Barnett:] Mm. [Mr Terry Heselton:] in in some way or other. Perhaps I could just inject here the the one of the more recent elements of the discussion which was the er issue of er changing worker densities er to calculate land requirements. Erm in in the context of Greater York, should you wish to to base your recommendations on er such a change, erm I don't believe that would cause the County Council any problems, and you heard from round the table that I think the the districts are quite happy on on that score as well. On the issue of Selby which er took quite a lot of time er I think it was an important area er bearing in mind the different views that have been expressed. I think really I can only repeat the County Council's position here chairman that we we do have sympathy with er the District Council's position and the particular problems that the District Council have to face. Nevertheless having said that, er I would say that the County Council's moved as far as it believes it possibly can do to to meeting some of the requests of the the district in providing what we consider a generous, and what other people might consider a overly generous allocation of land. We don't feel we could really realistically go any further within the context of the strategy again with the alterations it is placed within. Chairman I think it is important in setting the level of provision, erm that there is in fact a need to balance the requirement for flexibility against the the risk of over-provision and the consequences of that. Erm the County Council believes that its position is i is more or less correct in terms of the balances that [Mr E Barnett:] Mhm. [Mr Terry Heselton:] need to be achieved there. I was pretty happy actually this morning to hear er Mr Cunnane almost agreeing with us on our figure. Erm I I know it was in the context of a a question you posed to him that er if he had in fact er accepted the County Council's housing figures er that would have been an appropriate hundred and twenty two hectares would have been appropriate er on the employment side. On Harrogate, erm I think the discussions have clarified a lot of the the sort of outstanding issues that that er were between perhaps the County Council and erm Professor Lock, er not so much between ourselves and Harrogate, although we have the the issue, and I think if I read it right, this could well be er the only issue that is between us in the Harrogate area, the issue of the strategic sites. Er we appear sort of miraculously [LAUGHTER] to have [] got round all the other ones, er to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Terry Heselton:] fair bit of er Mr Potter's involvement on our part. Richmondshire, chairman I I think we er dealt with that fairly fairly readily, erm I th, a change if you were to recommend that er to meet the district's case, erm I don't think that would be likely to cause any any harm to the County Council's strategy and er that's exactly what Mr Potter er did say not too long ago. I don't really want to to comment on the last [LAUGHTER] issue [] really, I think we've probably said enough on that, er the the issue of the effect on West Yorkshire. We certainly don't believe that that will will be the case erm, I suspect personally that er their own policies and proposals probably have more harm [LAUGHTER] in in the issue on the issues of urban regeneration of perhaps North Yorkshire as well. Thank you chairman. [Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Er thank you very much for your contribution today I, we've found it extremely useful. Erm for those who we shall not see tomorrow, may I thank you for your presence, your contributions, that's Mr Cunnane, Mr Laycock and Mr Girt. Thank you very much. The rest of you I'll see you in the morning at ten o'clock. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] I call them discussions I don't call them interviews. Because we're [Maggie:] Mhm right. [Rod:] not offering quote a job. Er it's a business opportunity. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Self employed commission only. We make it absolutely on the phone. There you are. [Maggie:] You did. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So that you know that I do takes notes at the other end. There are my notes and that it absolutely critical for us to know. [Maggie:] All right yes. [Rod:] I haven't just done that. It's quite a different coloured pen. [Maggie:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] He did mention that to me he did say that to me. [Rod:] Yeah erm There are two or three things er that erm we are essential for us to find out when people phone in. Well first of all whether the the whole environment of selling advertising appeals. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Whether they can be understood on the phone. And I'm not worried about accents. [Maggie:] No no. [Rod:] I'm just if I can understand [Maggie:] I think they are more acceptable nowadays anyway aren't they? [Rod:] Oh sure. If I can understand people after twenty five thirty years in sales and marketing listening to people on the phone and knowing how important it is in this then I then that's fine. But I've actually spoken to an even a a real Tyne and Wear Geordie accent [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] I say I'm sorry I cannot understand a word you're saying. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] Or very sorry I find it very difficult to understand [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] er so it wouldn't be any good for us. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Because we're talking to a lot of professional people who are from all Scots you name it they're from it. [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] So that's why we we make the advert curious enough or enough curiosity in it, no vagueness I suppose we make it vague enough to say I've got to phone in. Some people will say to us, Now I've seen your ad there's paper [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] and that paper there are two things I get from that. Either you've got a massive turnover in staff or erm you're going somewhere. I say well it's definitely the latter. [Maggie:] The latter. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] But there is a certain element of the former. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] Because in any self employed situation you're always going to get people who find something quote better [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] in their opinion and that's that and and they get it. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] But in terms of turnover in staff I would I would be fairly confident in saying we have the lowest one of the lowest if not the lowest in any direct sales operation. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] We happen to have the largest direct sales force of its kind in the U K anyway. [Maggie:] Yeah. Yeah. [Rod:] We want three hundred people by the end of this year because the business we've already got just waiting to be done in phenomenal. Well [Maggie:] And is and is a continuation of business or is this referrals? [Rod:] Well when you when you understand er when you get to understand the products I mean there's there all our six companies are represented over there er Maggie [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Erm er one thing that is common across all of those products is exactly what the consultants do. And that is bring together the advertising to fund the product. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Non of that product is or ever has been or is ever going to be sold. [Maggie:] Mm right. [Rod:] It's all given to [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] you see this this this one you brought in here [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] unless the local printer's very cleaver somehow and got that advertising to to sponsor er the booklet they've had to charge for it. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Or they have to do what we will never do and that is take the quality out of it. Now the doctor may be quite happy with that. Say no. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] By law he's not even obliged to give them that as something as posh as that or smart as that. All he needs to do is to do a photocopy [Maggie:] Yes. Yeah which is what I got from my doctors actually. [Rod:] That's what I got from mine. [Maggie:] Did you? [Rod:] Until they came up with er a very cheap version of that. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Rod:] And I was disappointed I went and say, Hey [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] by that time I'd been involved with. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] Erm but one of the things they did not like is for erm to have a sales consultant on the medical practice for three weeks using their [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] telephones because that's part of the deal. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] If you're not prepared to sign that contract then forget it. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm so there's no point in talking. There are still a number of er medical practices around who still don't agree with advertising. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] Even though their own [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] B M A have said it's quite [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] and the general medical council have said no problem. That to get back to part of your original question, the company existed on folders the the estate agent folders, for fifteen years. Five years six years ago they introduced the postal wallets because they found that estate agents were sending the very expensive glossy brochures out in the post. It was costing them extra in postage [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] and they kept asking us to print more. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] And that was expensive. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Postal wallets were the wonderful spin-off from there. And they are now getting to the point where they are are popular as the folders in terms of [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] the estate agents that take them. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] Medical practice booklets four years ago or it's five years now I guess, five years ago erm er it's almost five, legislation was brought in by the then Health Secretary Ken Clarke now our dear Chancellor. Erm when [Maggie:] You might think so. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Well yes no I said, Dear. Should I say expensive Chancellor? Erm [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] but he did I a favour at by bringing out er a law that said that they must provide something like this. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] We went to the er B M A or the G M C I'm not quite sure which and asked if we could could approach er doctors for this and they've been snapping our hands off ever since. Schools universities and colleges they were a spin-off from the parents' choice charter. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] They have to promote themselves now just as they've got to get bums on seats as they say. [Maggie:] Mhm mhm yes. [Rod:] Er golf clubs well golf clubs will take anything they get for free. [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Mhm that's true. [Rod:] And we bought the company last year that did that so that [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] brought it into the fold. Now so in a in a way I've answered your your er question by saying that erm we are doing an awful lot of reselling. Every two years we reprint this product and we resell the advertising. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And as we take on new assignments er two years time they'll be resales. So it's an ongoing process that the first medical pra or some medical practice booklets are just coming up for their second resale. [Maggie:] Mhm right. [Rod:] Schools universities and colleges in er about a year's time the first resales. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] That's they're all the new ones. So there is absolutely tons of work. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] That's why we give an absolute guarantee that we will give you continuity of assignment. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Nobody sits at home twiddling their fingers. Erm I can guarantee one other thing [Maggie:] It's intriguing sorry go on. [Rod:] you will earn a far sight more money than the TEC will ever pay you. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Even though they've been squandering our money now. [Maggie:] Haven't they? [Rod:] Oh. [Maggie:] It's [Rod:] I was my own company er does management training and I won't touch the TECs [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] Cos I see all the waste and all the people in those organizations. And thankfully us independent consultants in training have just been er vindicated for all we've ever said about them. Because they've come out with a report saying what we've been saying for the [Maggie:] Have they? [Rod:] last few years. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Jobs for the boys it was. I feel very strongly about that because it was mine your [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] An application form. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] If you wanna have a look through some of those products while [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] I'm have a glance through this Maggie erm please do. [Maggie:] I know these ones. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Oh there'll probably be some er names that you've seen [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] and recognize. [Maggie:] Yeah this is our this is our area this one. [Rod:] Oh which one's that? Oh right yes. [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] Yes. That's a strange size I don't why I don't know if we still do those. But er that came er into my hands [Maggie:] Gazette. [Rod:] recently so. [Maggie:] yes. [Rod:] So erm that's a strange size. I think somebody brought that in from er he he'd gone along when I was up here a few weeks back. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] So I kept it. [LAUGHTER]... So there's er quite a varied erm sales background here Maggie. [Maggie:] Mm yes. Yes. [Rod:] Stationery er Universal Supplies. [Maggie:] I was at Universal twice. [Rod:] Is that the big company? [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] That's the that's the one that prints the catalogue and then personalizes it. I'm sure I've I said to you on the phone I think. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] Cos I made a note Universal [Maggie:] Yes it is and they have you know most of their own own brands which is where they make their money obviously. [Rod:] Mm. Hampers now there's a there there's erm a market place that's advertising all the time. Was [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] this was this done by you know the subscription each week or each month? [Maggie:] I didn't work on that side actually Rod. I worked on business to business. [Rod:] Oh okay fine. Is there still [Maggie:] And I and I [Rod:] er oh to the corporate market. [Maggie:] Yeah. I used to go to all the erm exhibitions Olympia and GMEX and all of those. Erm and then it was my job to chase up all the leads afterwards. [Rod:] Right. Good fun? [Maggie:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Rod:] Doing the exhibitions yes. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Rod:] I had some sore feet [Maggie:] Hard work [Rod:] Yeah I know. [Maggie:] But er everybody thinks oh you're going away stay in a nice hotel. [Rod:] I used to run a training course on on how to run exhibitions and one of the things that that female were always surprised about I said don't where high heels on the exhibition stand. [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] You still see them doing it. [Maggie:] Yes. Oh it's not worth it is it? [Rod:] My feet are hurt, change your shoes dear. [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Thankfully fashions have changed somewhat now [Rod:] Yeah that's right. [Maggie:] haven't they? [Rod:] That's that's er that's we are I think we are subject to fashion all the time. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So the lads have er flown the coop have they? [Maggie:] No no. The thirty year old is still at home. [Rod:] Really. [Maggie:] Can't get rid of him. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] Can't get rid of him. [] [Maggie:] And he's been working erm in in the shop. We've just closed a delicatessen actually. [Rod:] Oh right that's right you had a deli didn't you? [Maggie:] Erm yeah Ken had one and he's managed to erm secure early release from erm the lease which was due to finish in July. Er but since the multiples started trading on a Sunday last year our sales just went down. [Rod:] And you're a grandmother too. [Maggie:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] And you dote on him I guess. [Maggie:] We do. He comes every weekend. [Rod:] Does he? Oh. [Maggie:] He comes Friday to Sunday we keep him. [Rod:] Oh can I go to grandma and granddad. [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] It's a big problem at the moment. [Rod:] Now what's this? Nights at the pub network. [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] Or is that nights at the pub [Maggie:] Networking [Rod:] and networking? [Maggie:] Well it well it's really just it it mixes in doesn't it? You just meet people erm you know [Rod:] Oh sure. [Maggie:] Erm and it's all to do with contacts because I'm still running my own business erm of of [Rod:] Doing what? [Maggie:] selling hampers. [Rod:] Oh right. [Maggie:] But this is [Rod:] I didn't I didn't hear that. [Maggie:] this is something though, well they're all finished now at Christmas. But this is [Rod:] Oh you that's right [Maggie:] something that Ken would like to take over now. [Rod:] Ken? [Maggie:] My husband. Because he's always been in er in food. [Rod:] Mm. Okay. [Maggie:] Erm and I'm you know I'm sure now it's it's [Rod:] Yeah it's one thing that er we have to reem reemphasize to people and usually I do it on the phone, that if people have got businesses erm the way look at it there's such a commitment by this company to [Maggie:] I can imagine that. [Rod:] for the self-employed even the self-employed status [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] erm we guarantee. Er you can see the sort of backup er from the brochure [Maggie:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] what sort of that we have. We not have to give we're obliged to give in terms of to keep the company going. [Maggie:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] Erm and we are fully aware that some people have got other things [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] quote. But it's when it interferes with the thing. They'd say [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] well it's you know it's one [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] or the other. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] But if there're a lot of people have got evenings you know [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] network marketing and things like that. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] As long as [Maggie:] I think network marketing I think it I think that turns out to be jolly hard work because if you're not recruiting it's the recruitment part of it. [Rod:] Oh yeah. That has to be [Maggie:] If you're not recruiting. [Rod:] Yes I mean my wife and I have had a go at that. [Maggie:] Have you? [Rod:] We're still we're still there but erm it it was the number of people you had to approach to get one into you. Because I there's nothing wrong with it. Eth ethically the Government have cleared it and in fact have forecast that it's going to be the one. [Maggie:] The yes yes [Rod:] The marketing concept. [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] Certainly is in the State and Japan [Maggie:] I was gonna say it's [Rod:] sixty seven percent of business goes through network marketing. [Maggie:] it's more commonly known [Rod:] Yeah. [Maggie:] abroad isn't it? [Rod:] Unfortunately it still has the pyramid selling er [Maggie:] Tag. [Rod:] attached. [Maggie:] Mm mm. That's right. [Rod:] And of course that's illegal. I've got no [Maggie:] Yeah we looked at er N S A. We looked at. [Rod:] Well that's who we're with. [Maggie:] Are you? [Rod:] Yeah. [Maggie:] Oh right. I wonder if this is where er from then? [Rod:] Who? [Maggie:] My my friend from er he lives at Sheffield. [Rod:] Right. [Maggie:] I wonder if that's where he's heard of you then because he you know he introduced me to N S A. [Rod:] Oh right. [Maggie:] I I went to some of the meetings and [Rod:] Yes. [Maggie:] I did a couple of workshops. [Rod:] I don't Ian name doesn't er [Maggie:] But er Ian. [Rod:] Doesn't ring a bell. [Maggie:] No. [Rod:] No. But that's where I go. I started down there with Wakefield [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] at Wakefield. [Maggie:] Yeah. [Rod:] Oh yes I mean there I've I've I wouldn't be without my er filter and my er [Maggie:] Filter well I have one yes yeah. [Rod:] And the security products are very good too. [Maggie:] Yes. Well I didn't see those because I didn't stay long enough. Mm. [Rod:] Right er I've got nothing wrong with it. But of course the recruitment aspect is really [Maggie:] Mm mm. [Rod:] difficult and and now of course we we still retain our our distributorship but er we're not very active. Erm okay. There's the background there I've met you for for ten minutes. I've spoken to you on the phone. You can knock this one into a cocked hat Maggie. [Maggie:] Could I? [Rod:] Yes absolutely. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I will tell you right now. Well let me explain. Two or three things that we need to decide here today and that's the purpose of these discussions. Is A whether you and I think that this is er erm, if you can forget what your friend [LAUGHTER] told you about [] [Maggie:] Yeah. I it did I mean I thought afterwards I shouldn't have said that to er John because he would be thinking, Oh here's negative Nelly coming along. [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] No that's all right. [] Erm [Maggie:] Erm [Rod:] You know we've got people that erm [Maggie:] But I think if you put your thoughts on the table at least you all know where you're starting from [Rod:] Oh sure fine. [Maggie:] don't you. [Rod:] Erm in fact you notice I didn't even make a note on it. It just er I remember him saying something to me. Oh you you somebody said that they had a bad time with erm [Maggie:] Because I was insistent I want I want I wanted to speak to Rod and er I said no I when is con when is it convenient to ring back then cos he said he's got the phone glued to his ear blah blah. [Rod:] Yes. [Maggie:] And erm well I am the same status and I am his colleague and all this you know I can help you. [Rod:] John gets very defensive okay. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Yeah. Er nice guy but he's never been in recruitment. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] So he er but he had sold. In fact he er I understand he was a very good er advertising salesman. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] They brought him inside to erm recruit without giving him any training at all and what I do has been gained over the last twenty years of recruitment. [Maggie:] Mm mm. [Rod:] So erm in fairness to him I think he was plunged into something he didn't have a hell in er hope in at that time of coping with. If somebody was interviewed by him and had a bad time, I can tell you I had a bad time, well to me it was a bad time, when I with him and he saw he spoke with me. Er when I was asked for my opinion afterwards erm er I said er well I I quite honestly I wasn't er interviewed. I thought for thought for fifteen minutes I was er should I or should I not join the company. [Maggie:] Mhm mhm. [Rod:] If you have that bad feeling, well not join the company but. However that's. Erm now the three two or three things that we're talking about today really is, er and one we've just got over I think, is that you and I er I'm I'm absolutely certain you'd knock this into a cocked hat. I've had other people here that don't come anywhere near your background and and your style and particularly your voice. Which is so critical to us. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Erm the other thing is to for you and I decide er well once you tell me that you're happy er with what's happened so far. Erm the other aspect is to decide where you feel that you er could be most comfortable environmentally. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] In other words in what environment will you feel comfortable with working in. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Now I have one of those erm it is a luxury because I have erm six companies where I want people in the north east. And to have a choice like that it means that anybody who comes in here [clears throat] is not in competition with everybody else. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] I can legitimately offer most people that came here today er I happen to have rejected a couple. Erm because that's also what we don't do hide behind reject letters. [Maggie:] Mm mm. [Rod:] Er regret letters. Erm is er the other thing is when. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] When we can start. We do have a fully expensed training course at head office. They vary only very slightly across all six companies but the most common thing is that that we won't send people out [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] erm blind. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Okay? [Maggie:] Well that's not good for either is it? [Rod:] No. [Maggie:] I can't I can't sell unless I'm happy with the product. Er unless I believe in it myself I can't erm [Rod:] Well er this company has er survived for twenty years. It has it can't stop growing. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] Erm we we own all the property at head office. There's no mortgage. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] We just bought a printing [Maggie:] Brilliant. [Rod:] Yes I know. In fact if you did a Dunn and Bradstreet [Maggie:] That's lovely isn't it? [Rod:] on us it would count, in effect we're cash rich. [Maggie:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] The concept's so simple and and the country's littered with people who thought they could do it as well as us. [Maggie:] Mm. I noticed all the nice motors as well. I was thinking I would [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] As in fact I had a go at that I had a go at I had a go at them about another prod er another photograph. They've obviously lined up er all the best possible cars in the car park. I'm not sure is that the same photograph? Have a look at this one. Yes it is actually we use it on one of our other brochures but they've they've got all the er all the nice cars. And you see it when it generally er and also it's a perfect day. I haven't seen a perfect day like that over in Blackpool yet. But in fact where it starts here to there's the Old Mill [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Right. These have been added on. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] It goes right the way you can see over there. It goes right the way back. Now right at the back here further down is erm the building belongs to us, all of this is own without a mortgage by us, right at the end er is we we've leased erm a section out to Pickfords [Maggie:] Oh right yes. [Rod:] They're moving we so desperately need, I think we've terminated and bought the lease er bought the remaining lease. We leased it to them because we need that area. We're building new training schools, we've already got a big one up on er in one of the er it's it's this end here. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] That's the whole of the training school. Cos you [Maggie:] Crikey [Rod:] can see all the smokers gathering along there [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] sales meeting. When you have a sales meeting there's the whole all the sales people who smoke, because it's a totally no smoking company. [Maggie:] Yes yeah. [Rod:] They have they by law they have to. [Maggie:] I don't smoke I like that. [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] By law they have to put somebody er put somewhere in there for people to smoke. But it's totally no smoking all the way through. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And you see all the smokers [LAUGHTER] lining up there []. [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So that yes. In fact that shows the erm doesn't show. But they've been there for twenty years on that spot. And of course we are looking at other products all the time. I'm just investigating for the company er going onto radio. Taking our ad that [Maggie:] Ah. [Rod:] you see. So if people say to you well we're always seeing their ad. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] You will because we're determined that ev you'll see our ad a lot. [Maggie:] Everybody will. [Rod:] [blowing nose]. Excuse me. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] But it does give to some people that that will demonstrate that we're always looking for people [Maggie:] Yes. Mhm. [Rod:] because we can't hold people. [Maggie:] Yes mhm. [Rod:] Well the the reverse is true. Always looking for people because we need to add on. How do you feel Maggie so far? Are you are you erm [Maggie:] It sounds very interesting. Mhm. [Rod:] Okay. What about environment which one would you? [Maggie:] What about environment? [Rod:] Now which one would you choose? [Maggie:] Erm I don't know really. I don't know. Erm I mean tell me in more depth how it works [Rod:] Right. [Maggie:] Erm you know from the [Rod:] Simply our consultants, go on ask the full question sorry. How it works? [Maggie:] Yeah. I mean obviously you erm create the the interest. [Rod:] Right. Now what we do erm and this takes an awful lot of workload from the sales consultant. [Maggie:] Mm mhm. [Rod:] We set up all the assignments. We have a separate marketing er executive group. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] That are travelling the U K right now on behalf of more than one of the companies. We have a marketing executive who signs up golf clubs. We have er two marketing execs three in fact that sign up schools medical practices and we have four I think to sign up estate agents. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] All independently of each other going round to the, well I say independently, but they obviously get fed a lot of information from head office where we have a telesales operation. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Who do nothing else but phone businesses and organizations and surgeries and golf clubs and tell them about our products. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] They they will have the same script almost and say this is a free of charge item, all we need from you is this this and this and if you're interested I'm gonna ask a marketing executive to come in and agree a contract with you. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] In simple terms that's what they say. [Maggie:] Right mhm. [Rod:] Marketing exec goes around signing up the contracts. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Right? There will be certain discussions which I'll go into in a minute, at the at that stage which will determine what we're going to do for them. What we're going to do for them is certainly provide a free of charge product, it's the numbers [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] and the when we're going to do it. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] And the who's going to do it is not determined until a couple of days before either party knows. In other words if the estate agent or medical practice will get a phone call from us and say look we'd like to do your assignment is it convenient. They may say, Oh wow no we're just having something done at the surgery rebuilt. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Got a couple of new doctors coming in a new practice manager can you leave it for three months. Okay so we put that back. Another one leapfrogs. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] And then we say who's available it's it's come up in North Shields erm who is available who is just finishing an assignment. Oh Maggie is erm fine where is she at the moment, oh she's at Hexham right well we'll give her a call at Hexham and say this is where your new assignment is going to be. [Maggie:] Right okay. [Rod:] And that finishes on the Friday or whichever day of the week and you start the next day. You can start the next day. If you decide you want a couple of days off to take your grandson shopping [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] or something like that, er or your husband even with his cheque book, then you just have to tell us. [Maggie:] Mm mhm. [Rod:] But if you have to tell us that you wanna week off we need some notice. Because that might be right in the middle of an assignment and they [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] do not like that. [Maggie:] No no. [Rod:] That's fair enough. [Maggie:] No. [Rod:] So if you want one [Maggie:] So you've got to tie all your loose ends up haven't you? [Rod:] So all of this is all set up for you. [Maggie:] Right okay. [Rod:] So that's really you literally only have to listen to the phone call and turn up. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] All right? Now most of the people who come to see us have never sold advertising have never wanted to. What we do is provide them all er all of them with er a training course an awareness which does include on some with some companies two days out in the field. Either before or after the course. Right? [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Medical practices for instance two days beforehand before coming in for three days. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] Fully expensed we pay all all travelling and hotel bills. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] The reason I'm say ask people to erm give me some idea of where they feel, I may have my own ideas, where they feel, depends on the information I impart on people. That's why I like to get that out of the way. But in essence we are erm all of the sales er marketing execs are discussing the same thing with whichever organization. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] How many booklets how many postal wallets how many cards how many folders we're gonna print for them. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] That will depend on the information we get from them. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] We are er going to ask them to compile a list of businesses which they are happy for us to approach. [Maggie:] Mhm right. [Rod:] How are you doing your telemarketing at at the TEC? [Maggie:] I've been provided with lists. [Rod:] And what what what typically are they? [Maggie:] Erm people erm the TEC database actually [Rod:] All right. [Maggie:] and people who have responded to circulars that they've just sent out. Where they're offering the free hours counselling and er and the two days yeah you know consultancy [Rod:] and the investors okay yes all right. Okay and what's the sort of reaction that you're getting from them? [Maggie:] Very good actually because it's free though isn't it? You you can't really knock it can you? [Rod:] No. Now that would be an ea that's er telemarketing in it's in it's pure sense in that you're offering something free are you interested [Maggie:] It's softest form isn't it? [Rod:] it's soft. We have to harden ourselves up for this. [Maggie:] Mm mhm mhm. [Rod:] But if you've got the right attitude and right, as I said on the notes, right voice and the right er personality, it it's just the same as having somebody face to face. We have the luxury of course of having to go face to face anyway. [Maggie:] Yes yes. [Rod:] Because most telesales people don't, even in advertising. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] They do it all through the fax [Maggie:] So after you you've erm do it would I then go out to see people, is this what you're meaning? [Rod:] Yeah. Once you've go we what we don't do in in advertising erm whatever your er your son may do himself, is it your son in in advertising? No. [Maggie:] No. [Rod:] Where did I get that from? [Maggie:] Don't know. He he was in the deli with us. [Rod:] Oh sorry that was my last [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] my last. That's how you carry on. If I play my tape back I'll me say that again. Erm no in in terms of selling advertising we make sure that the prospective advertiser knows absolutely everything on the phone. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] We don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. Only to talk about the contract and the copy. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And to pick up a deposit cheque. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] If you if there are certain things that if you don't tell them on the phone, including the price, we tell we talk price. Yeah there's the price it's size it's this product you know the reason we're phone you because you've been identified as by the estate agent or medical practice or school as being very suitable and they would very much like you to support this. [Maggie:] Right okay. [Rod:] And it will cost you this. It will cost you this per year for two years. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And it will it will get to this number of people and this is how it will be used. Now that's not face to face that is on the phone. [Maggie:] That's right yes yeah mhm. [Rod:] And one of the things they do on the training course is is to compile a script with you. [Maggie:] Mhm right. [Rod:] And I had a script but after a while you don't you set that aside and use your own style. [Maggie:] Mhm. I know [Rod:] It's a good base to work on. [Maggie:] Yeah. They sometimes come across stilted don't they when you're trying to [Rod:] Yes that's right. [Maggie:] trying to do your own thing and [Rod:] Yes and don't don't break in I've got to read my script. [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So that's that's [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] in in a nutshell what we do. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And quite honestly about it. It's not people only make this job difficult I believe erm if they don't listen to the people who's who have been doing these things for twenty years. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And er I include myself in that by having been in sales and marketing for all those years I thought I I could do anything. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] But this is so different to what I'd been doing as it is for most people. [Maggie:] Mhm. Well as to which discipline erm [Rod:] I feel you can do this and I know you I think you know you can do this. [Maggie:] I would think erm estate agents or schools. [Rod:] Yeah I wouldn't put you in estate agents. [Maggie:] Wouldn't you? Why? [Rod:] They've been going for twenty years and er there's er school is very much, I would have put you straight into schools [Maggie:] Would you? [Rod:] Yes. [Maggie:] Oh well. [Rod:] I'm glad you if you if you'd [Maggie:] So I was half way there then wasn't I [Rod:] have only mentioned estate agents I'd have I'd have been disappointed because [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] you know now you've given me a let out. Erm schools I think schools is just up your street mainly because erm And I'll tell you another why I think schools will benefit a lot of people going, first of all it's a fairly new product so we're really in the launch up stage. [Maggie:] Mm. [Rod:] That actually benefits us here by the way. Remember estate agents have been going for so long they say, Oh is that another folder? [Maggie:] Mhm mhm. [Rod:] Whereas you say I'm I'm responding here for Gosforth Park School or whatever you know, that might not exist but, [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] erm er any school because estates state schools and independent schools [Maggie:] That's right. [Rod:] erm there's a certain prestige about erm going on to a school. As there is with all of those but not necessarily estate agents. [Maggie:] Yes. [Rod:] However, the other aspect is that if you go to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out. If you go to an estate agent you may have two people to help you out. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Go to a golf club you may have just the golf secretary. Go to a school you've got fifty to sixty teachers. [Maggie:] Mm mm. [Rod:] And I recommend to anybody who goes on the school, I'm sure they do on the training course, that the first opportunity I would have to address erm the con er the staff meeting, you just say this is what I who I am this is why I'm here I've got a list of businesses which the school has provided with me already but I I will I may erm if I bump into you in the corridor I may just say do you know anybody else. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] And they they you know if you've got a bit of style and and maturity about you that will go down well. [Maggie:] Mhm. [Rod:] Let's talk about schools. [Maggie:] Mhm okay. [Rod:] That determines the pack I bring out you see. [Maggie:] Right. [Rod:] I may keep that that'll be helpful I'll send that back to the school er to the er Incidentally would you like a cup of tea? [Maggie:] I'm fine thanks Rod actually no I'm fine thanks. [Rod:] Would you mind if I ordered one cos I am [Maggie:] No not at all no. [Rod:] I missed lunch and everything. Yes that coffee must be. When my wife transcribes this she'll say [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right. Okay.... Not long before the end of term now, pooh... looking forward to er, going home to get some real food inside you I dare say, as opposed to the gruel you've been getting in hall. Right. Okay let's just er pick up from where we er left off last week. Cast your minds back, last week we were looking at the relationship between price elasticity of demand and marginal revenue, and what that relationship could tell us about er prices and total revenue in an industry. If you remember I used the example of agriculture, right, where it is generally observed that agricultural products have a price inelastic demand, okay. [speaker002:] So that any changes in output.. right.. lead forget that diagram it doesn't really show what I am about to say, but er when we have a price inelastic demand.. changes in output.. lead to changes in price, but the changes in output are overcompensated changes in price, so.... let's just do the diagram like that.... Okay. In that [clears throat] sorry, in agriculture when there was a good harvest, prices would fall more than proportionately to the change in quantity. As a result total revenues would be lower in the industry in years of good harvest, and when there is a very poor harvest prices rocket through the roof because of the inelastic demand and therefore the change in price is much greater than the change in quantity er.. consumed on on the market. Right and that was [clears throat] the result we generally observe in agriculture in that, for example, if you have ever been down to er the West the West of England where there is a number of apple growers you will find that when there is a very big harvest, right, apples just left to rot on trees, right, simply because it is not worth farmers harvesting er those apples because they won't get er price to cover their average vanable costs. Right. Prices are so low in the market because there is such a bumper crop that it is simply not worth them harvesting, as a result it is rational for them er just to leave the apples um, pears and what have you on, on the trees. Right. However, in a very poor harvest year, right, prices rise very dramatically and as a result total income of the industry ri rises. However, as I said before erm if you are the farmer or the grower, the apple grower whose crop has been completely decimated you won't be able to er benefit from the very high, high prices if you have got very little output right, so your as an individual your income may be very low, right, in bad years, right, but on average when we look at the industry as a whole, industry incomes will be very very very large. Right. [clears throat]. What I want to come on to now is just to talk about nonlinearity, and still with reference to demand elasticities. So far we have just been using linear demand curves, with a linear demand curve the slope is constant, however, elasticity varies everywhere along its length. Now with a nonlinear demand curve, right, that same relationship doesn't hold. With a nonlinear demand curve it is the slope that changes along the curve's length, but the elasticity in some special cases, right, can remain constant. Right. Now I just want to look at a simple class of demand function, right, which we could write, if I can get a pen that works... we write the demand function as P equals A over Q to the beta. Right. Now this is a special class of nonlinear demand curve right because this implies constant elastic constant elasticity... alright. Now to prove that result we just note again the elasticity formula D Q D P so if we differentiate that expression on the demand curve we'll have... we'll have D P D Q Okay, and that equals.... minus beta A Q to the minus beta minus one. Right simply because we can rewrite this top expression as AQ to the minus beta. Right so if we differentiate our demand function... we get that alright, nothing that for our elasticity we want one over D P D Q... okay, so our elasticity you could write as one over minus beta A Q to the minus beta plus one... right, times our price quantity ratio which if we now just substitute in the price, so that we have got A Q to the minus beta, right over Q..., right, that equals A Q to the minus beta minus one over minus beta A Q minus beta to the minus one right which cancels to give us minus one over beta. Right, so our elasticity in this function, right, is simply minus one over beta, right. Now if we note that beta is a constant then that implies that our elasticity is going to be a constant. Right, so it doesn't matter where we are on this nonlinear demand curve, right, elasticity will always be the same.... [cough]... and in empirical sorry and in in empirical work we tend to use these nonlinear demand functions simply because they have this nice property that they have constant elasticity, and it makes subsequent calculations considerably easier, and you may think in actual fact that linear demand curves are quite restrictive. We may not expect consumer behaviour, right, to be the same at all prices and quantities basically but er, nevertheless, you will probably see more linear demand curves than nonlinear ones because they are somewhat simpler. Right. What I want to look at now, a new sub-heading, and it's the relationship,... right, between... total, average and marginal functions... As you may be aware that economists are obsessed... with the concept of the margin and there's a neat relationship a couple of relationships embedded, alright, er embedded in this relationship between total marginal and average functions that is applicable to all total marginal and average functions whether we whether we be looking at marginal cost, marginal revenue, marginal products, right, the same relationship will hold for all of them. To explore what these relationships are let's just use the example of total product, right, so we will be looking at... total product curves..., right, T P... Okay and lets assume that our total product... right, is simply a function labour and capital. Now in order to to look at this relationship between labour and capital and output total product simultaneously we need to draw a 3 D diagram, alright, but because my diagrams are bad enough in 2 D what we are going to do is we are going to constrain one of these factors, right, so what we will do is we will pick a level of ou a level of capital input, right, and we will see what happens to total product as we vary labour. Right, so we are going to assume effectively that K is our fixed factor of production and L is our variable factor.... Okay. right... so if you er draw a make sure you have got at least half a page, right, you are going to be drawing two quite familiar diagrams..., right, you er, first of all just draw a normal total product curve, what we are going to do, because we are looking at a fixed level of output, sorry fixed level of capital what we are going to be analysing is the relationships between the total product of labour, the average product of labour, and the marginal product of labour, right, for a given level of capital... okay, so the total product curve just tells us what happens to output as we increase the level of our variable factor labour keeping capital fixed at some constant constant level... Right, so as we increase the labour ou er input by one unit the change in total product, right, is going to be given by the marginal product, right, so... so [clears throat] quite simply the marginal products of labour. As we change labour by one unit what's the effect on total product or output well that effect is measured [clears throat] by our marginal product. As a result marginal product is simply a slope... right, the slope of the total product labour function... Okay, [clears throat]... let's define average product of labour as simply total product of labour divided by the amount of labour we are actually using... alright, an average product [clears throat] to be measured by... [clears throat] slope of a cord, right, from the origin total product curve er to the particular point on the total product curve. Right, so if we just the origin of the particular point on that curve the slope of that the origin to denote the average product of labour. Let's just have a look at what happens... as we increase the lab, the labour output. First of all let's have a look at the relationship between total product and marginal product... making a diagram we can see the total product rises... up to L 3 units... As a result that implies... a marginal product positive throughout the range to O L 3... [clears throat].... If we now look at what happens to total product between O and O L 1 units of labour and we can see total product rising at an increasing rate, right, which implies our marginal product positive but increases over that range... O to L L 1 [clears throat]... right, between the [clears throat] the range O L 1 and O L 3..., right, the total product is rising... but at a decreasing rate... a decreasing rate... that implies that the marginal product is still positive, right, but falling.... There is a between L 1 and L 3 units of labour [clears throat] total product is rising but at a decreasing rate... that therefore implies that a marginal product of labour between those two [clears throat] imput levels... is positive but but falling notice that total product curve peaks at L 3... right, so it's maximum at L 3 units of labour... of that curve at that particular point zero, therefore, the marginal product labour [clears throat] is zero.... If we add more labour beyond L L 3 units, the total product is falling... the total product is falling and the slope of the curve is negative what's the slope of the curve it's the marginal product, therefore, the marginal product of labour is also negative beyond [clears throat] L 3 units of labour.... Let's now look at the relationship between total product and average product... [clears throat]... O K the slope of a ray from the origin..., alright, along the curve rises all the way to L 2 units..., right, so the slope of the cord, ray rather, the slope of ray from the origin rises, right, to O 2 sorry to O L 2 units of labour... as a result the margin, sorry the average product of labour is also rising over that range.... At er L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin... right, is tangent... to our total product curve. At L 2 the slope of a, the ray from the origin is actually tangent..., I'm sorry, the [clears throat] the ray is actually tangent and therefore the slope of that ray is the same as the slope of the total product curve at that point. As a result, marginal product which is the slope of the total product curve and average product must be the same at L 2 units of labour.... Beyond L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin... on the total product curve starts to fall.... Right, as a result average products must fall beyond O L 2 units of labour.... Okay, it follows therefore that at L 2 units of labour [clears throat] the average product is at a maximum. [clears throat] Right. Rising prior to that, falling after... therefore the average product is at a maximum for L 2 units of labour [cough]. Okay, so that's what you learn in micro economics this year and which should be fairly familiar to you ask now is why that is the case. Why do we get this, these relationships in particular, right, why does the marginal product curve intersect the average product curve [clears throat] at the average product curve's maximum? This relationship isn't just common to product relationships it's the same in cost revenue relationships as well... Okay, so... so what that diagram [clears throat] is saying in symbolic terms is that if the slope of the ideal product of labour curve, right, if D L P D A P L by D L positive, then the marginal product of labour must be greater than the average product of labour.... Right, and if the slope of that average product curve, right... is negative that implies the marginal product of labour is less than it's average product... hence if the slope of the average product curve is zero... that implies therefore the marginal product equals the average product of labour. [clears throat]... so let's show why that is [clears throat] why that is the case... [clears throat]. What we are going to do is differentiate the average product function... the average product, right, is the quotient of total product... right, and the the amount of labour actually used and as a result if you want to differentiate it you can use a quotient rule of differentiation. Right, general notation, right, D Y D X equals V D U D X. V squared minus U D V D X all over [cough]. That's our quotient rule... so let's apply that to this particular particular problem. Right, what we are going to do is let's say that Y equals er total product labour X equals labour U, right, equals sorry Y is the average product... let Y equal the average product of labour X labour input, U equals total product of labour, right, V er equals... L as well Okay, [clears throat]..., right, so [clears throat] differentiating the average product curve and average product function in respect to labour..., alright, we get L times D T P right, by D L minus... Q P L all over L squared... [clears throat]. Let's rewrite that slightly differently and just say l over L... open brackets into D T P L over D L [clears throat] minus T P over L..., alright, what's that in economic terms, well that's simply..., right, marginal product of labour in the brackets, right, minus the average product of labour..., okay, so if [clears throat] if the marginal product of labour here is greater than the average product... right, the righthand side is going to be positive... right, therefore, average product is going to be positive... okay, [clears throat] the marginal product is greater than the average product ah change the slope of the average product curve is going to be er positive therefore average product itself is positive and rising... let's write that down as the marginal product of labour is greater than the average product of labour [clears throat] that implies... changing slope of the er... average product curve right, is positive... implying that average product is positive itself and rising... Okay, if the marginal product of labour, right, is less than the average product... right, that implies [clears throat]... the slope of the average product curve is positive therefore the average product itself, right, is positive and falling... [clears throat] sorry... [clears throat]... right, so we can rewrite that somewhat succinctly..., using the following [clears throat]... D A P L over D L, right, is greater than equal to or less than zero... if... D T P L over D L, right, is greater than, equal to, less than... right T P L over L the average product.... Yep... [clears throat] er well you read it just go along the top the line here, alright, the slope of the average product curve, right, will be positive, right, greater than zero if the marginal product, right, is greater than the average product, right, the slope of the average product curve will equal zero, right, if the marginal product equals the average product and the slope of the er the average product curve will be negative, right, if the marginal product is less than er average product... Okay, [clears throat] now that result holds, right, for all erm for all marginal relationships... Okay, so if we are looking at a marginal... marginal cost curve..., right, we have got that's our marginal cost..., that's our average cost we, we're intersecting here when in the case it is a minimum... [clears throat] so marginal costs cuts through average costs at its minimum value... we are looking at average revenue and marginal revenue... average revenue function marginal revenue function [clears throat]... This is... our total revenue function [clears throat]... and the same relationship is embodied there, but, notice that between the average and the average revenue and marginal revenue functions, right, don't intersect... simply because we have got a linear relationship here... right, average revenue is always above marginal revenue in this particular case. Right, but, nevertheless, the same relationship is embodied in that... righto, I think what we will do is er leave it there before we start partial derivatives. See you next week.

[speaker001:] Okay, welcome to "Influencing Skills" we we always do the fancy bits of, erm, whatever, I'll change the words this time, because I'm getting a bit bored with the way we normally do it, name. Erm, what we'd like to know for for all of our sake's really, is who we are, and where we're from, what we're doing here, how long have we been doing whatever it is that we're doing here, erm where we come from, a little bit abo about our history, and any details, usual points, that you just Er, my name's David. Perhaps I ought to explain why I've got Peter here. No Peter. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Maybe not. Erm, Peter's not here, okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Erm, Peter will be here tomorrow morning, he's unfortunately been called away to er, today, and er, but he will be joining us tomorrow morning, early. So [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] No. He'll join us tomorrow morning, he'll join us tomorrow morning. Er, he sends his apologies rather urgent to get things sorted out. Erm, so let's explain why we can help Peter. My name is David. I'm a tutor here at er at the Manor. Er, I've been now for six and a half years, I think, at the last count, er, I know I've served just over half my sentence. So you can work it out now, how old I am Erm, what I do, is I run training courses and er, they are Management Skills Courses, they are not anything to do with insurances, because I know absolutely damn all about insurance. All that I know about insurance I have gleamed from courses such as this. Erm, because before I joined the Commercial Union I came training straight from the training centre, I worked for er, Industrial Training Board, in fact, dealing with a number of Plastics Industries. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] I've heard all the jokes about that. And er, I used to believe that plastics was good, before I met er, disillusioned me of this. Erm, and I worked for them for about twelve or thirteen years, I suppose, trolling around sout south of England. We had reorganisations there, you know, every time they had a reorganisation a patch got bigger, and the workload got heavier, er, and in the last ten months of my period there, I did sort of thirty five thousand miles and a job as well, so I thought, blimey I'm into mortality tables, if somebody else's car had got my name written on it, so I decided to take a change. We all make mistakes. Erm, but ac actually I thoroughly enjoy working for Commercial Union, especially if you erm, he's taking all the [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Erm, I'd like to to welcome you to the Industrial Training Board, I spent about four and a half years with training scheme, and I actually originated in er, engineering, so er, I've got a long track record, perhaps of training and er, an even long track record working, so I won't give you too hard a time. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] Er, that's really me. Who's like to to explain wh who they are and whatever. Why not, yes. [speaker001:] Erm, I from Edinburgh branch, I'm the Assistant Manager of Services there, erm, that means I'm in charge of Personnel and Admin, erm, Personal Insurances and our Technical Services Unit. Er, been with C U for er, six and a half years as well. Erm, joined as Management Training. Went to the usual training courses and General Branch. Erm, went, decided I wanted to be on the sort of management side. Went through Section Head of various departments and became the A M S there or M P S as it was at the time. Er, about two and a half years ago, erm, before that, er, just at college, so this is my first real job selection. [David:] Right. Take a seat. One of the things I will be doing is going round is just checking out the learning goals. Now learning goals for those that that didn't actually, sort of, get round to sending the little pre-addressed form. This is a form that we asked you to complete and send down, and some people have done it, and some people hadn't. so should get er, a bonus point for that. Erm, just want to check out that this is still roughly right. Erm, it's only general filling er, and it was mainly to develop assertiveness skills and confidence in putting forward your own ideas. This any more, additional on it. [speaker001:] No, no, that's fine. [David:] You're quite happy with that. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. Er, we'll come back, perhaps after we've been there. To tell us about the the little problem we reported on, reported on something we want to look at, we can home in on some activity. Excellent. [speaker001:] I've got it. [David:] I've got accused of people. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Okay, John, you go for it, because you're [John:] Er, John work for Management Services, I'm a Systems Analyst and been with C U for just over three years now. Before that I worked fifteen years for a international bank. Er, prior to that I was trained as an electrician. So I've done a variety of jobs, and I'm not quite sure how I ended up doing what I'm doing I got into computers by accident, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I don't believe that, John. [John:] No, seriously, that's true. I found out they had a computer in the bottom of the building when I worked in the bank and it started off from that. I've done everything, programme, erm, Systems Analyst, I've done it all. [David:] Good. [John:] Tried it all, so I thought I'd come here [David:] Been there, done this, [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah, a bit like the advert on television. [David:] [LAUGHTER] Great. Thanks, John. And and, and how does this sort of match up with er, of [John:] No, I mean, that's that's [David:] That's reasonable. [John:] That's fine, yeah. [David:] They have state er, in your case, clearly, contributional, concise and without rambling. [speaker001:] Tendency to waffle occasionally. [David:] Yeah, but I'm sure, I appreciate that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no honestly. Er, er be able to handle questions in a comfortable way. And er, become more assertive with my dealings with others. [John:] Yeah. [David:] Yes. [John:] That's true. [David:] Whatever that means, and we'll discover those as we go along. Are you happy with those? [John:] Yes. [David:] Any additions, subtractions. [John:] No. [David:] No. Good. Thank you, John. At the back, I see a, I see a movement from Phil. [Bill:] I'm Phil and I work in, erm,Mar Marketing Department, down in Croydon. Been in C U for three years. Joined as an M C. Erm, effectively I I mean I work in a Direct Marketing Department, all the junk mail for the un uneducated. Erm, handling a lot of the life erm, that we do. Prior to C U I came straight from University, so, I assumed Business Data Course. [David:] Right. Have we got one of these? [Bill:] Er, you should have, yeah, but it'll probably arrive Friday, because I'm a late replacement. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Oh, really, oh shall we make allowances for him. Shall we, it depends who else hasn't done it. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Okay, look, I haven't actually had a copy. You've obviously got it there. [Bill:] Yep. [David:] And do you want to give us a clue about what it says. [Bill:] Yeah, I mean,ef effectively, much of my job is involved with erm, handling negotiations, whether it be internal departments or at agencies, or whatever. [David:] Right. [Bill:] And, obviously to get them to do the right job in the right, within the right timescales. [David:] Right. [Bill:] Erm, you need influencing and negotiation skills. [David:] within timescales and... [Bill:] Erm, like getting to the right thing [David:] Right. [Bill:] in the right time, effectively. [David:] Okay. Good. [Bill:] And obviously they have their own priorities, so they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily geared up for that. [David:] Phil, that's strange. [LAUGHTER] [Bill:] Yeah, I know. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Why don't they, wouldn't it be easier to [Bill:] the other one is effectively developing confidence in handling these these situations. [David:] how do you come to Anything else. Happy with those. [Bill:] Mhm. [David:] Great. Thank you Phil. [Rosie:] Can I have a go now? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Well done, Rosemary. Rosemary. [Rosie:] set up. [David:] That's er point. [Rosie:] Right, I'm Rosemary I am a Technical Leader at Management Services in which is a a fairly new role. [David:] A Technical Leader? [Rosie:] A Technical Leader. Yes. Erm, it's fairly interesting. [David:] Indeed. [Rosie:] I'm, I've worked at C U on er, for for many years. I joined erm, a branch that no longer exists, from school. A branch in London, and worked on personal assurances. From there I test programme unit, joined er, as a trainee programmer, having spent five weeks here first which was er, [LAUGHTER] first and last. [LAUGHTER] course that was say on here. Erm, from there I've erm, worked for four years, I've taken erm, a break to have children. I've erm, returned to work contracting and in fact, at Commercial Union for the last three years. Lived all my life in the south of England. Never living north of London. [LAUGHTER] [David:] And north of Watford. [Rosie:] Never been to Watford. No. [David:] Those of course, in the south do recognize that when, there are some people in the midlands, sort of, sort of round Northampton area, who try to get in, they won't [clears throat] they reckon, they reckon that the Watford Gap. It is a bloody, those of us from the south, now is as Watford, Hertfordshire, sorry about that, you know, we're well happy, you stand no chance of [LAUGHTER] oh dear, I've got in the eye here, you know, we declared independence years ago. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Good. Thanks, Rosemary. [Rosie:] manager sent in my objectives, but I can't remember, now. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Well, he sent in erm, [Rosie:] She. [David:] He sent in a a a er,what what's called a nomination form. Now I've extracted from the nomination form, some things, but I don't know whether you've seen them. [Rosie:] She had discussed them with me. [David:] Do these look something like what they were? Right. Okay, if you read and through, I take the kind of pros and cons of ideas, understanding there are those very active proposals, I've got more of a selling approach with pretending ideas, you know, the candid advervisement like, you tell us negotiating [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] Lovely wording on that one. Er, and avoid conflict... situations. [speaker001:] Which course did she go on. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [David:] learning, I I'm quite sure which course that came up on, yes. There's there's one, I think that's gonna need clarifying, and that's that this course isn't about presenting, er, it it maybe about adopting a selling approach but it's not about presentation skills. [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] Yes, fair enough. Erm, I think many of the young people especially go through, never seem to have an interlock er, together to create er, whatever it is they want to. Which maybe you are now, I don't know. Are you happy with that. [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] Any additions, subtractions. Good. Thank you for that, Rosemary. [sigh] We're running out of options here. Well done, Clare. [speaker001:] office systems in erm, for three, four just over four years now. I haven't been in office systems for all that time. Er, prior to that, I did a degree at college from Hull. Said Hull? Mm. I could tell it Erm, the other points I will probably [David:] Oh, here we got the the lists that Connie gave me, [speaker001:] Yes. [David:] the lists that Connie gave me, [flicking through papers] [speaker001:] Erm, probably [David:] Yes, they are a bit varied, aren't they, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. I don't know whether you've received my You know, the one my manager just sent me, but I haven't. [LAUGHTER] [David:] You didn't say anything, Mary. [speaker001:] No. [David:] No. I I want your then, Rosemary. so, have you got some? [Rosie:] Erm, well, yes, vaguely. [David:] Vaguely. [Rosie:] Erm, a lot of my job is going to around branches, erm, and it is charged at, that are on the new systems, and that's negotiate with the new [speaker001:] [cough] [Rosie:] management services and branches and what systems have been reduced and the branches that have actually kept the ones they're on to. [David:] Mhm. [Rosie:] And that stuff, usually, so I could just delete [David:] On what. On what. [Rosie:] Well on, I do it the right way, because I don't always feel that I am doing it the right way. [David:] Tips on negotiating er, I put brackets between er office systems, maintenance services and the accusers. [Rosie:] Yep. [David:] You get that. [Rosie:] No, it's just confidence, really. But er, [David:] Okay. Happy with that? Ecstatic. [Rosie:] Yeah. [David:] Right. Thanks Clare. We've come down to the wine you can't escape any long, now. [speaker001:] I've just driven down from Manchester and I'm slightly knackered. [LAUGHTER] But er, [David:] We did notice the old [LAUGHTER] just had a late night on the town. [speaker001:] Er, we did sample of the regional wines, last night erm. Been with C U for about two years last September, er started management training, came straight from University, erm, tt several section section head erm, starting with with various instructional outside they call it process control. Erm, why that exact name, I wasn't sure. Erm, live in Manchester, my natural place is Stockport which is, a little just outside Stockport, where I've lived Erm, it's taken me years to live [LAUGHTER] a bloody long time. [David:] Okay. So I mean, er, I'm I'm really stumped down on the course, because erm, you know, all all my usual but jokes seem to be here, I mean [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I daren't say anything about Chinese. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Er, or management services. assistants are in doubt It looks like it's going to be group supply in here. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] If there's any reason why I can have group supply, is that you can always pick on somebody to blame it all on, of course. [speaker001:] That's true. [David:] But we didn't pick on you, [speaker001:] No. [David:] No. I don't know whether it's circumstantial, or maybe didn't actually send it. [speaker001:] Oh I didn't send it, no, I presumed my er, my managers would have it's a, it's a specifically to do with appraisals, erm, persuading to think I'm entitled to five hundred pound a day, or some something like that. [LAUGHTER] Don't tell me. [David:] from my point of view. [speaker001:] Yeah. [David:] anything else? [speaker001:] Erm, no, [David:] Okay. You've come a long way from Manchester to deal with that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I'm sure we'll develop something I'm sure we'll develop something to go Okay. group, erm, must take those up at some stage and and transfer them to the wall. One of the things I'd like to know, erm, fairly on in the course is is your asked to bring along some thought, something you were trying to influence somebody about. So it would be used then, as a a working model, if you like, er, through the course. Erm, could I ask you to just share with us briefly, er, not in great detail, but, just a few words about what it is that you want to influence somebody about. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [David:] Sort of share with you, give me some clue about how we can organise the rest of the course as well. Let's let, s go. [Bill:] Yeah, sure. [David:] Yeah, let's go then. [Bill:] Erm, well, luckily my section manager is a forty-six year old woman who is erm, [clears throat] section like that, at the bottom of the copy of the report. [David:] Right. [Bill:] Erm, I like it there to be filled in by the managers older by about two years or so. [David:] Mhm. [Bill:] Erm, erm, I mean, she doesn't have a very strong character, but erm, on the scale of Erm, I'm sure she'll make he reckons about half an hour erm, to make sure that [David:] Right. Good. Just a couple of things I want to check out. [Bill:] Yeah. [David:] I think we're not going to talk about processing. [Bill:] Yes, erm, yeah, yeah, yeah. [David:] Appraisals, you appreciate that we're not going to talk about processing appraisals. Which is another course. Book early in the new year. There are places available. [LAUGHTER] Er, collect the forms on the way out. Erm, the other aspect is that you have actually got line authority on this Phil. [Bill:] Yeah, that's right. [David:] Can I just check out that what you're actually talking about is influencing that. [Bill:] Yes. [David:] Rather than directing, be directive. You wanted to [Bill:] Well, it's it's this, during discussion, erm, I've got to bring her round to my point of view rather than on her point of view, and discussing the erm, [David:] Okay. Erm... fine. Er, er I think this is a general point, because we'll talk in a moment about what is influencing, [Bill:] Yeah, [David:] and classically one of the problems is, that we get situations where, at the end of the line, you've got a line authority on somebody, you say, I hear it all, I hear it all. Now do it. [Bill:] Mm. [David:] Er, because I have line authority on you. I am your manager, I'm your boss. Do it. Erm, at which point influencing has somewhat become a bit of a waste of time. [speaker001:] Yeah. [David:] It becomes just two fingers in the eye type of thing. Erm, but you're saying, you don't, you want to get it right without doing that. [speaker001:] That's right. [David:] Fine. Okay. We'll go with that one. group you didn't, if you'd said no there, I just threw it down and said well, you'd better think of another one. [LAUGHTER] Okay, thanks Tony. Let's work round, Rosemary. [Rosie:] Right, erm, how can I explain, without being too technical. [David:] Oh, don't worry about it. Imagine aren't normally, but erm, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] We're, we're, I'll tell you what, we we're stuck here, every time you say something, we don't understand, Rosemary, we'll we'll get a check out. [Rosie:] Yeah, you know, I start of all this sensibly. [David:] Sorry. I'll can I just check sensibly it might be something [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Aw, ah ah my dear. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] [LAUGHTER] like the course assessor. Sorry, Rosemary. Carry on. [Rosie:] In programming, if something's called J S P Jackson Struction Pro-level Method, and erm, I think I can introduce a slightly modified way of using it. Er, a more sensible way of using it, providing divisional good ideas. [speaker001:] Yes. [Rosie:] And this has been accepted by an authority of people on site, erm, presentations with management authority you know, they've all been told that they must follow union rules. Erm, are now in the process of following up to see if who has made er the switch to the new regime, and I have been approached by one project leader who has two programmers who refused to change, and has asked for help. [David:] Right. [Rosie:] You know, so before I approach them, they've gonna have to quit the union [David:] And certainly there is a situation where you don't have line on it, line of approach on it. [Rosie:] No direct [David:] You've just got to talk to them about J S P, which is a subject very close to my heart. [Rosie:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] First time... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] The first time I saw this, when I was up in I thought, look at that, can't even get John Player Special round the right way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, so it's it's something where you've got to try and influence somebody to to change to a new way of doing it. [Rosie:] That's right. [David:] Good example. Erm... so it's two people on that section. Er, just so that we can see which way we're working, John, can I just check out, have you the faintest idea what the hell she's talking about? [John:] Yes. [David:] Oh, excellent. In case [John:] Well, I know, I know, pleased. [David:] Kids are gonna be role playing there, and think, there's there's somebody else wants to jump in, you know, and then, because... [speaker001:] No, I've got my own views on it, now. [David:] Aw, aw, that sounds good, good. Rosemary. [speaker001:] seriously [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [David:] [LAUGHTER] It's it's funny he's just checking under the [] It's funny you should be here, John. Er, John. [John:] Probably won't come as a surprise to you, but er, I've been working on a training system. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] For a department within C U and er we've done this design... on it, and come up with a new system, that we want to try and sell to other departments within the company. Now there is one department in particular that already have a training system in place, albeit the old volume two, but having said that, it works quite well, really. But, they're going to be made on, in fact, it's going to be pushed rather heavily they change to this new system, and they're going to have to meet some of the costs of development of the new system. Erm, what they need to be able to do is just be able to gently lead it along the right tunnel [David:] Right. [John:] To to accept it. It's not clear at the moment, whether we gonna get too much opposition, I mean, they might just sort cave in straight at the beginning and then take it on board, but er, there's definite potential there. They've they've asked for a few changes to their older system, and this new one will give them all that they want, plus a load that they don't want. And I get the impression that they're probably just quite happy to live with what they currently have, so I think it's just. That's the only problem get a and try it get influence, got to tactful about it, you know. [David:] Yes, of course. It goes without saying. I mean, one of the things that quite often comes across at various elements of this course, is that the word selling comes out. Erm, because it is a, many of the the aspects of the United Kingdom, you know, from every try making something, been trying to sell them on to you. So, let's have a, an interesting and er, tell us why other department makes life clear. [speaker001:] Erm, well, at the moment I'm involved in a a big project, new benefits claims, erm, and so if the new claims system could echo which priorities in that department, erm, and it looks like it will be long drawn out eventually at the end of next year, nationwide and effectively it's a English processing system whereby terms coming in and they're scanned and you can see images on a screen, so there's gonna be no calls, what my, what my role in this is, gonna be to get the branches to accept the system. [David:] And... [speaker001:] So I'm gonna need to to influence them, to actually to accept the whole concept of change and, you know, all of them really. But er, [LAUGHTER] That's what I would quite like to today, [David:] You gonna come back tomorrow. [speaker001:] I'm gonna come back tomorrow. [David:] Excellent, Clare bit of fun there [LAUGHTER] Fine. I I I take it a great er, challenge now, I've only ever lost three delegates, only three delegates ever walked out on course on me, so, don't, you know, don't ruin my [speaker001:] [clears throat] [David:] About six, two people already had the sense not to come. on to that one. Does anybody understand vaguely what Clare's talking about heard of this example. [Rosie:] Mm, I've heard it, yeah. [David:] You know much about it. Don't argue. [Rosie:] No, I never. What I know is sense of others profits. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Oh, [Rosie:] So it's not only got to be done, that's the problem. [David:] Well get somebody in, Somebody who imagine they don't like it, Clare, in fact, you know. [speaker001:] You can always fix some objections. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Okay. Thanks again. market... Phil. [Bill:] Right, well, ninety per cent of the work that I do is effectively what what we call third party mailing whereby we will take erm, an insurance brokers client list, erm, and mail them the C U product. Erm, and they will earn commission on that. Now, for more important brokers, what tends to happen is, er the Direct Marketing Manager, my boss will go out and meet these brokers, and er, effectively cost him the earth, erm. All things being equal we could probably turn one of these things around, which is basically preparing all the literature, briefing the systems people and getting it all printed up and everything in about six weeks. But we've er, other projects and er, things going on, we are dealing with like, anything up to sixteen weeks ahead of it. And of course, as I say, it costs us the earth. So, we constantly being plagued by tight deadlines erm which means that, when incurring a additional costs, from overtime work, the printers and many things like that. So what I'd like to do is erm, balance out the influence in him, prior to going out and making these negotiations erm, so that he comes back with a a suitable timescale for us to deal with it, and hasn't promised them the earth in the way of commission or er, print changes or whatever. [David:] Mm. Is that selling er, selling in terms of time. [Bill:] Flexing their [David:] And, and what do they get... commission? [Bill:] Yeah. [David:] Yeah. Good. At least we did have boss, sometime it's not being good you can say, they've been good, and they say ah, it's just what Phil wants. [Bill:] [LAUGHTER] yeah [] [David:] Instead of saying you know, or something. Okay. Next [speaker001:] Erm, I had a bit difficulty coming up with a case, actually, erm, this [David:] No problems. [speaker001:] No, no, not that. It's just that this year I have had a lot of weak influencing situations, been on a lot of projects groups and so on, and last year I needed a lot of extra staff. So maybe we would have been great to have the skills before I did it, and that's why I am on the course this [LAUGHTER] Erm, the only thing that I can think of that's erm, something that I do believe and I am committed to getting changed, is er, a system in our offices, in one of our departments, but I do have erm, authority over the people that I would be talking to, so, I know at the end of the day, I could just say, do it, but I'm trying to get them to believe in changing erm, and just sort of certain benefits of it. Basically the system is our cover note book control, er, we issue cover note books to agents and it's up to us to make sure that they're all issued in sequence, as their legal documents etc, and a minute a gap comes up we have to chase them etc, it's run by erm, people quite low units and they scared of a job and tend to put it off as lose, and I want to visit and try and influence them so I can give them some help and to change it and bring it up to date, because it's er. We got it up to date recently, but it was a major job and it always slips back, so. That's really [David:] The influence is really to get the system, and keep it running. [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] Suppose to have to [Rosie:] Aha. [David:] Catch up [Rosie:] yeah. [David:] Which soak up more time [Rosie:] Mhm. [David:] Okay. As you say, it's lying but [Rosie:] Mhm. [David:] What you're really saying, I think is, that you actually want to do it [Rosie:] Mhm. [David:] whether they want to do it, [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] rather than you, because your telling them. [Rosie:] That's right, 'cos they might not do it. Well, they will, they will do it, but they won't want to do it er, you know, like committing themselves if you tell them to. [David:] No. They do that, don't they? They say, yes boss, yes. They do things like, that's a terrific idea, boss. [speaker001:] [cough] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Er, I agree with you totally. And they're shaking their head, and they're saying no, it isn't. I think they're saying one thing, and they do something else. Er, commitment, [Rosie:] Mhm. [David:] I think perhaps er, is probably your answer. That means trying to get them commit committed in the nicest possible way. [Rosie:] Mhm. [David:] They no longer get co committed under the old way. Okay. Thanks for that group. Er, I think they sound like a good set of people you can work with, though. I tell you, I make that point, that we we have to, to try and not vet, but to check you out, if we've got somebody that's understandable, realistic, because we have had examples on this course, where erm, with the best will in the world, and the systems are the right hand of God, erm, the projects that people have brought along, the case studies that people have brought along, won't work. Er, the most extreme case, of which I think was a project accountant on U K finance. He came along with a project which was to get to get somebody to change in a company where we bought forty per cent of it. Forty per cent is insignificant, the sixty per cent was still owned by the man and his company, and somebody in the organisation, I know this sounds fairly tall, had said go and get this company to do this, because it works for us, Commercial Union. Well, of course the guy with the sixty per cent just kept saying, you know, up yours, in the nicest possible way, you know, it may work for you, but why should I do it when I get no benefit from it, and I own sixty per cent of this outfit. Go away. Now with the best will in the world, there is no way that that fellow could get this other party to change. Would you? But he was sort of being destructive, quite a boss to go and get them to do it, and they wouldn't. Well, you never go in an unrealistic influencing situation, and er, the other one would have said, well, we've had situations where it has been very much a line type decision. Or somebody saying, yeah, I took, I want them to do it because, they're actually underlying, and er, if either of these cases, where there is lying, if you drop into line, er what we do in case studies, or working through it, I shall say stop, start again, okay. Good. Okay, group. Good stuff, well done. Thank you very much. Now we're on the road, er, let's see what other goodies we've got over here going on, oh, yes, we're checking out how well people are being briefed before they came on the course. [LAUGHTER] I mean, come on, [] but I do understand that some of you were briefed or, or Don't worry about this now, but we would like this briefing questionnaire back before you leave on Wednesday, er, if you were a late replacement, could you just make that plain on there, er, if you weren't briefed, you've got the shortest questionnaire in the world to fill in. You get to page two, and it said, were you, and you say no and that's it. Er, if on the other hand, you can yes, then you can see a little bit further down the line, but don't worry about those now. In a in a quiet moment, er, perhaps you could fill those in and then send them back, say, before we finish on the Wednesday. One of the things that's perhaps a little difficult to say with that tape recorder running in the middle of the room, is, that this course offers, operates a sense of code of confidentiality, and I'm not sure how this is going to work. somebody else out there who's hearing every word we're saying. What er, we would normally say is that, what you say in here doesn't leave this room via Peter and myself, er, in order, sometimes, to talk about the other situations, I think perhaps we'll we'll have an agreement, with whoever's gonna pick this tape up afterwards. If at any stage, somebody wants to talk turkey, and mentions people's names, they'll indicate that and we'll switch the tape off whilst we talk about him. Yeah? Because I think it's important, that quite often in influence situations, we get down to the real nitty gritty. We actually start mentioning names. At this stage, John will say, like another department. Up to, you know, few hours where we've been together, he'll actually be prepared or at least to the rest of us, who the hell he's talking about. People will say, you know, this person, and they won't mention their names, after a few hours together, we start to get to grips with the nature of influencing, and the names start falling out. So there's a general agreement for every well there will for me, like, if at any stage you want to talk turkey. Talk people, just say, I want to talk and you can't tape, until you've like conversation. Plus the favourite one, at a certain stage is is just to leave it off. Okay. So, we've got some learning books, well done. Remember where we're going. [flicking pages over] at the moment. One of the things we need to think about, quite early on, I suppose, is er, is the nature of what we're actually talking about. What are we talking about? What's this course we're on? [John:] Influence Course. [David:] In thank you, John. influencing. Now, one of the things that I find increasing... increasingly so, is the fact that words become popular, don't they? Er, words are in words. We had words of the sixties, there were words of the seventies, there were words of the eighties, words of the nineties, and we're influencing by those words, actually that's reasonably in popularity and er increasing usage, and sometime we, people actually use it and they don't know what it means. Sometimes people don't actually understand what the hell they mean, when they say it anyway. So, the first little bit of exercise we're gonna do is, I'm gonna ask you to, just work in pairs for about five minutes. Just looking at how to use a word, and I'm better gonna have a look. Work in pairs, just round the table, don't be embarrassed with, John, Clare, Phil and Ed. Just spend five minutes putting your thoughts down on paper. What are the words, what are the expressions that come to mind when you say influencing. What are things, other meanings of it. A word that coins the same message. You know. Er, try, let's try and get it home and understanding of what the word means. Whilst we're doing this exercise, we'll switch the tape off. [tape switched off] So let's take some er, some music. What sort of things, what sort of words, come to mind when you hear the word influencing. Shoot me. swine. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Now this pen doesn't spell double R R. Okay, I've got to warn you, said the spelling, keep getting office systems to try and get us some decent colouring pens, but they don't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Does that look right. It doesn't look right from up here. One of the other problems from standing close that's right. This oh sorry that's a stroke [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ah [LAUGHTER] I think it's got two S S's [David:] He who has the pen, has the power. [LAUGHTER] Okay, [speaker001:] Leading. [David:] Leading. The pen's doing all right in the programme. [speaker001:] Negotiations. [David:] Negotiations. [speaker001:] Has it got to be one word answers? [David:] Not necessarily, no. [speaker001:] Frenzies have been Affecting a change. [David:] Affecting a change. Got that one. Yes. Affecting a change. Good. [speaker001:] A bit strong, isn't it. [David:] No, as you say [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah. Go for commercial C [LAUGHTER] [spelling] C A C A M P [] was an S Don't know what you mean. [David:] Coercion, Coercing. Yes. [speaker001:] Selling. [David:] Selling, and they've been listening already. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Good. [speaker001:] Convincing. [David:] Convincing. Good [speaker001:] Assertiveness. [David:] Assertiveness. You've been reading the programme as well. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Good. [speaker001:] Managing. [David:] Managing. [writing on board] [speaker001:] Affective. [David:] Affective [clears throat] Right. So you want to fill in the spaces, you thought, you, having nothing at the bottom of the page, but the big gaps There's more? [speaker001:] Proposing. [David:] Proposing. [writing on board] Right. [speaker001:] Got a long one here. Bringing about a change of heart. [David:] Bringing about a change of heart. Oh [writing on board] [speaker001:] when he's here. [LAUGHTER] [David:] ... heart. I think... [speaker001:] Communicating. [David:] Communicating. [John:] How about a bit of a stupid answer. [David:] Being very revolutionary, in'ya, John. You sure this' ll catch on. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You sure this' ll catch on [John:] Don't know. [speaker001:] Yeah, it sounds like a good idea to me. [David:] Yes. Any more. [speaker001:] Yeah, I got one, expressing a view, got to be the one [David:] All right. Expressing a view. [writing on board] Yeah. Any more. Okay. That's a pretty er comprehensive list. Actually longer than the list we've got. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Erm, well done. It's about, when you look at influencing, some of these parts are component parts some of 'em are, some of them are, ancillary associated skills, which help us influence. Er, some of them are different words, for influencing on, a bit a bit of a mis-match here of mish-mash, rather of those different aspects. Er, but essentially, let's look at what we're saying. nobody's saying. You're saying that there are certain things which are, maybe words which are alternatives or part of [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] Influencing. What might there be. What might be the alternative words to influencing or, alternative phrases... [speaker001:] Persuade. [David:] Persuade, I think is probably one, isn't it, which is a different, a different word, something that might be using in it's place. Others... [speaker001:] Affecting. [David:] Affecting. get the only one. That's it. Yes. Again. Any others? Yes. Right. [speaker001:] Convincing. [David:] Oh yes, I was gonna say, I think convincing is is another word that goes along with the general ambience of what influencing is about. Sorry, the ghost hasn't come over from the other side of the door, it just keeps moving by itself. I think it's the wind. Er, any other words there that particularly that we would use, er you know, replacement for the word influencing. [speaker001:] I think coercing probably [David:] Yeah, in a fairly sort of that's a bit of a coercing, isn't it, maybe in to er, dirty tricks department. [speaker001:] Mm. [David:] But it's moving towards that end, where, do it or else. [speaker001:] Yeah. [David:] Recognise that er, the implications of that but you're right,co coercing could be er an adve a rather negative end of influence. Erm, you're getting into sort of aspect. Er, some of the others though, one minute, I don't want to pick out all of them, but, some of the others recognise they are actually parts of influencing,wh what what might be parts of the influencing. What associated skills do we [speaker001:] Reading listening. [David:] Yeah, er reading and listening are certainly a part, sorry, no skills which you haven't got, you gonna have a problem, in terms of influencing. [speaker001:] To be [David:] To be brilliant. How can you influence people if you can't communicate with them one way or another. The answer is, with great difficulty. Er, the other s Sorry yeah, certainly, part of it thinking about the way on which we put together a package of ideas, and how we're going to get that across and sell that to the other party. Excellent. Any others? I think our party, I think managing is very much about organising, nothing in the directive form of management [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] But managing a situation. If you don't manage influence, what actually happens? If you don't manage anything, what happens. [speaker001:] control. [David:] Exact control. You've got two options basically, in your influencing to be either, your in control or your not in control. And if you're not in control, you've usually got chaos... coming very shortly. Erm, for considering, is an aspect of other parts of the for you to go. I mean, the sort of things we got down are persuasion, motivated to do something, people see things as you see them, changing the way things are done, getting a view point across, solutions accepted, getting other party to accept change, you've got the words up there. Erm, getting the other party to cons consider your views. The dove-tailing of ideas into to mutual benefit which maybe also aspects of sound. It's about something, perhaps, that isn't implicit out there. It may be implied, but I don't think it's it's actually explicit up there, and I think it pond I would like to to recognise what we're going to work towards, and that is influences about choice. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] Without recognising that there is something needs to happen,to about recognising choice. How you're going to approach it, as well as the choice of the outcome as well. Er, and it's also about... you're going to erm, take two inputs when we need to recognise you need choice and you also need flexibility as well. So one word we came down here to talk about, and hey, here's a whole lot things. It's a whole mess of things, it's a combination of those sort of things put together, that actually makes influence. Think of people that have influenced you in the past, and got you to do things, which, if you look back, and you think, that was very clever. I I wasn't even going to do that, I didn't want to do that. But they did, they got me to change, because I suppose all the words up there, and I'm gonna find three most significant ones that and change, er, because while you influence somebody to turn from what they were doing, probably not too often, but it's usually about something, when you think about the examples that you brought along, and you knew all about change. Wanting to something to do totally differently. And influencing to do it without alternatives we're gonna have when we're managers. So, there's a whole concept of things we we need to er, to remember, what influencing is about. We're gonna come back to some of the as we work through. But what I'd like to do before we progress much farther, is just to, just to think, maybe about some of the things that I've said there, some of the things that we've already spoken about. Some of the things that you probably went through when you padlocked together. But there's two questions, two questions to answer, erm, why do we need influence? That your views were on those two questions, and let's take erm, let's stick to views of why do we need influencing, first of all. Talk us through groups. Not all at once. Just one at a time. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Would be helpful, you know, [speaker001:] Ladies first. [David:] [LAUGHTER] No. [Rosie:] The first one is the erm, er, or so, when directs authority over somebody, will, we don't, we can't tell them to do it, we have to influence or persuade them to do something. Erm, obviously one needs to change peoples ideas or change the way we do things or whatever, erm two relevant position that's sort of making them believe in what they're trying to erm, propose, and getting commitment at the end. So that they mean what they're saying. [speaker001:] Some good reasons why we need some of these skills, before we [David:] Good, er, gentlemen. [speaker001:] erm, bringing about change of this, erm [David:] Yes. [speaker001:] First of all change erm, [David:] [LAUGHTER] You're thinking about it [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] small change. Erm, it's first of all, I thinking about changing their, like say for example, you know, the guy speak to me about change, erm a systematic erm to see the benefits bringing about change without his image. obviously the reasons for [David:] Good. [speaker001:] seemingly changing. Every if the reason that something's gotta change is obvious to everybody, then you don't really need to have any influence over their It usually has to be some considered opinion that you want Yes, I mean, if it's blatant and obvious, and there's only one option er, that's the bit about choice, if there's only way of doing it, and one option, then you don't have to influence people. [clears throat] Your driving down the road, and you carry on driving if there's no cross-roads. You gotta carry on driving down the road. Unless you want to be in the fields. you've got a problem. [David:] Good. Yes. Oh, there's some good reasons why we need this skill. Okay, so what is it all about. All of the people, including the ones that can carry on. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Yes, let's do that. Let's let's ask the gentlemen to er, in fact I might do that. by the way, a fatal mistake, sexist [Rosie:] Are they? [David:] Aye? Tell us, ladies, what was er, what was some of the things you need to consider, then. [Rosie:] That was gentlemen. [David:] Sorry, gentlemen, you're right. Yes, one of the important things you need to have influence, is remember peoples names and what sex they are. Quite right, Rosemary. You can get yourself [Rosie:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Right, what's this lot been given. [speaker001:] Well, we need to know what the alternative point of view to our own is. Erm, we need to know what the position is now, and where we want to be, so, a lot of the influence is going, what change the influence is going to bring about. reaction. Erm, our own is, obviously our own reasons for wanting this change but we ought to know the needs of others to see whether they correspond. [David:] Right. [speaker001:] Erm, we need to be convincing in challenge, otherwise the challenge, erm, we should question whether there is a need for any change, erm, if things have been done in a certain way for a certain period of time, erm, just because we want to change them, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't [David:] Right. [speaker001:] Erm, the method that we're likely to use, or might be successful in bringing about this change, and once we've done it how it's likely to be effective. [David:] Well said, well said. But surely in that when I said let's see whether it considerations I said. [Rosie:] I think you would agree with him, when he said er, that [LAUGHTER] [David:] [LAUGHTER] Fifteen all. [LAUGHTER] [Rosie:] Erm, first time, I think of some other things that would erm, would be considered in the light of influencing erm, got the power structure, it was important, approach and and you talk to your manager [David:] Yes. [Rosie:] Feelings, personality again, approach. peoples, can affect where you, which erm, which you needed for some [David:] Mm. [Rosie:] You need a plan of structurally approach. About deciding on important something important, like going to lunch, you know, going on holiday. [David:] That's right. [Rosie:] And and backing, that's always important, you know, if you've got some support, [David:] Good. Two very good sets there. recognise what we've, what we've done so far, erm, but, we're actually track on what you need, I mean, what why we need it. That's what we mean, that's why we're What do you say, to consider for the to pick up many details. And well done. Both groups, for recognising this. Influence is about change. About getting things to move along, but when you start breaking down what the other aspects are about a lot of things, erm it was good influencing, recognise this and somebody will just suddenly say oh,no nothing nothing to do with influencing, [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] And just walk off, because, you wouldn't have done, what you've just said there. In terms of consideration. Er, and they may be little things, but if you get them wrong, if you firmly recognise the power structure with people working with you, go on, who's your [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] People of your level don't talk to people of my level, and that's changing the organisation, but it certainly used to used to be getting organisations. Erm, not recognising that there are other people involved. It's not you and your change, it's them and their changing view you are considering, as well as you. You've got to live in their world if you gonna affect that change, if you don't live in their world and only live your own, if you don't recognise, er, the problems that they're making in terms of change happens, and those are the that you are going to give into the So yes, you can think about yourself and and others, and you can think about the reasons, and you think about the priorities, about planning, about structure level. About who's it gonna be affecting. About what backing, we think this is a jargon expression, sponsor, isn't it. Who's really driving this. And if you've got big enough names, you can actually move people, quite fast. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] You know, if you say David in most places, it didn't have a hell of a lot of effect after all, he just came If you sort of mention, like, a name like Walls or Rennells, you got people with feet several, you know, feet off the ground. er, and moving in the right direction, a whole nest of things, when you think about, if you're going to try and influence something that are influenced, but influence is actually very varied in terms of science. If the problem you're confronted with is a ten thousand pound bit of influence, then it's worth spending a few hundred pounds in a preparation. If it's a ten p bit of influence, it's only worth spending a couple of pence... on it. Get them round the wrong way, of course, and you spend ten thousand pounds worth of preparation on a ten p problem. And a ten p and people say it's money. it is, and I have to agree with them, and so would you. That, you need to recognise and think about, how big is the challenge how big is their influence. Because of the situations, some of the ones you've been on here, have got quite a consider considerable implications. Erm, in terms of putting the non-running in your department. And if you get them right, then it could be not just this time, but other times, could come along and wreck them, sometimes it's a bit like a domino queue, isn't it, you get this one fall down, knocks others down as well. So. Good step. So now we know what it is. We know why we need it. We know some of the things, er most of the things, in fact, that we need to do to think in terms of consideration. We'll come back and pick up some of them aspects as we go along. Any questions or clarification that either team want from the other team about their views? No. The question was asked me, erm, is there a hand-out on this. The answer is, if they had a particular general part of the study, but I shall stick them on the wall, er, with Blue Tac, but I shall stick the Blue Tac on the so I shall just make that point, so that if some particular person whose just taken it on, don't ask about the use of Blue Tac in his room. It's only a joke, I'll tell you about that in a minute, erm. Okay, good comment. Good set group. Shall we have a a cu cup of tea, I think you've earned a cup of tea, now. For all our, walking and talking and hard work. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [tape switched off] [tape restarted] [David:] This erm, relates to a model, erm, called a model for developing positive Very English sounding expression. I mean, it actually has some four sections to it. And I'm gonna talk through it in terms of a positive sense, er, and the different way. What this model is really saying is that, what we actually do, er, create impressions erm, used. You can start anywhere on this model. It has four areas, I happen to have chosen to start it on the point, you could start it look at, you can see area, but, this, just look at erm, it's this way round. The, one of the things that we carried forward to do with influencing, erm memories and attitudes, if you're thinking about in the positive model, positive way, it'd say going into an situation, I've been here before, and I was successful. Erm... I know what I'm doing. I have self esteem. I can carry this off. I am very positive in my views, and where I come from. Yes. Erm, I feel good, a feel good factor, er, I can I can change this situation, I can do it. There's a very positive attitude, yes. Which in itself, creates a er mood, when you look at things like plans and intentions. That says that er I know what I'm doing, because I'm positive, erm, I know where I'm going to, and as a consequence I can plan for that. I know what I want, I can plan for it. I'll get it. I can rehearse, I can be totally prepared. Er, because of them, I have a sense of purpose and I know where I'm going. So the memory has created a situation where you're looking for a planned intention was developing and I and suc suc suc and I was successful. I can actually plan and get my directions in a very positive sense. Does that make sense? Sorry, sense, do you know what I mean. So when you actually come to erm, try and influence somebody,you you're actual behaviour in there is based on sound er preparation, sound positive thoughts. So that when you're actually into a situation, your external behaviour is generating situations of positive vibes. Body language, there you go. Er, you would be persuasive, the language that you use will be in a positive sense, a positive vein. You will actually [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] you'll hear, you'll listen because you want to find out what the other party's views are relative to where you're trying to take them. Yes. Er, you express yourself... appropriately, because you will be confident and know what you're doing. Yes. And in itself, that creates in the other party, whoever it is you're trying to er to influence, their responses er, and reactions which will be positive to yours. And you will have a sense of being trusted, because of what you're doing. Er, you will be listened to, er, and that will create, and you will have influence, and that cycle will take you back into the positive memories for the next time you try and change something. Recognise. It goes round and round and round, on a big wheel. Many of these models and this is one, where you can actually go in on the, on the opposite side. It says, positive outcomes. This you have to recognise. What sort of things happen though, if you're into the negative side. Not just talking through a positive side. What happens er, here, if you're a negative? [speaker001:] [clears throat] Your nervous and apprehensive about doing some [David:] Right. [speaker001:] Into that situation. [David:] Yes. You've really run here. [clears throat] I've done this before, and it didn't work... and I'm gonna have to do it again, and Q E D, it isn't gonna work. Because the memories and attitudes of the past are with us. Now, so you've got bad vibes coming in. What does that create in terms of what you're doing here in the plans and intentions bit, what does that getting over... [speaker001:] [clears throat] bad, badly [David:] You're not going to be very positive, certainly, are you. Er, no plans, er confusion, I mean, that will never do. Because if you're feeling unsure about it, that's exactly your feelings. I have been here. I don't like this. Perhaps I don't and it's falling down that trap. Er, well I'll just do and see what happens. [clears throat] So, when you actually come and try and do it, what happens? If you're not playing and feeling bad, what actually happens. me an answer. You come across as negative. In what sort of ways? [speaker001:] In lack of prediction. [David:] Lack of prediction, which will be shown, how? [Rosie:] in your body language, be structured. [David:] Right. [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] The body language, you won't be structured. The words that you use. How many times have you heard somebody trying to convince and influence you on something, and they're using negative words. I'm printing this up, but I don't think you're going to like it. Some of you will immediately say, no I don't like it. They don't even like it, so what don't you like. They're not convinced, how on earth am I supposed to believe it. Erm, negative sense of how they expect yo, peculiarity there, that you could all, you can also flick a coin, though. Er, a very negative form of er, of behaviour, can be, you can actually get highly directive, and start telling people, erm, we've already identified that influences, not having that ability to tell, it's something that people try and do it, it's a, it's a facade, that people put up and get behind them. Erm, and say well, I don't think I'm convincing, so I'll try telling them, maybe they won't recognise that I don't have the authority to tell them, and they'll still do it. Anybody fallen for that one? No. Yeah, I have, and they say, ha ha. and they go and do it. [clears throat] So, the external behaviour can either be er, well I don't know to ask you to do this, but... their not gonna like this, but, or you can try and tell [speaker001:] Well, story of telling... you had to do it, [David:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm, if you a certain reaction as well. Things that create, well why should I do it. [David:] Right. Yes. [Rosie:] I suspect also that it influences your attitude towards that person. [David:] Right. Because the cycle goes on, don't it. The next time you try and I've been here before, and I didn't get it last time. Didn't get last time, and I'm not going to get it this time, either. Ah, that's a bit of bad news, isn't it. So the wheel goes on. Says model for developing positive outcomes, because if it is in a positive cycle, actually the more it goes round, the more positive it gets. On the other hand, it's also like walking over the end of a plug-hole. If it's a negative cycle, it also reinforces that negative bit, I've been here before, I didn't feel comfortable, I can't do it, it won't be successful, and all because you're not. Because it's like the water getting faster and faster around the, around the plug-hole and it all becomes gentlemen, let's check out you. So if it suddenly goes the other way round [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yeah. Who cares. [LAUGHTER] [David:] information, er, they did it on erm, one of the programmes they actually put a bucket of water actually on the equator, I don't know if you saw it. [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] But it didn't go anywhere, just went straight down the plug- hole. Quite incredible. straddling the line. And as you say, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I don't care, it's just a useless bit of information, I thought you might like to know about. It's about watching for this cycle we do this sort of thing in many aspects of our life. [clears throat] We build at getting better things, where if we don't actually watch it, we build at getting worse at things. Because we've been there and we we set, it's a cycle form of prophecy. [Rosie:] Mm. [David:] I don't like this, I'm I'm no good at it. I can't do it, and when we try and do it, we're no good at it, and we can't do it. So one of the aspects we're looking for sometimes is recognising when we're in a negative cycle, how you can turn that round to a positive cycle. If we're in a positive cycle, how can we make it more positive. Yes. [Rosie:] How about when you work to, when you're in a positive cycle to be aware of the negatives. [David:] Mm. Why do you think that [Rosie:] Because, I mean, you could say something wonderful etc etc [David:] You could be coming round here to various attitudes and behaviours intentions, behaviours, albeit highly positive, but if you don't recognise what other people are doing, your responses, they, you may feel positive, but if they are saying... er, I just don't accept this sort of thing from you. It's the sort of thing unfortunately some people say, innit. You can't have those my dear, those things don't work. That is an unusual sort of thing to say. You tend to recognise particularly in that area of other people's responses, and you keep going on, you're bulldozing, aren't you. [Rosie:] Mm. [David:] You keep pushing something along, pushing something along, pushing... Well this is, this is er, who isn't here today. [Rosie:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Peter round here, sort of, he's losing it by now, er, Peter got his best shirt and tie on. [Rosie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Dressed for the occasion, see. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Er, so the cycle is is very important, yes, to recognise where you're in the positive cycle, but be aware of other peoples responses. Equal, I might add, peculiarly sometimes when you're feeling very negative, [Rosie:] Mm. [David:] Around here, a number of people are saying, [whispering] dear God, what's he talking about. [] And you feel working at, pick this up, you can miss those points. You see, this person's actually very positive, you won't find a fault. They keep on going on in the negative sense and the bulldozing here, has got you digging a big hole, and you eventually fall into it. And expression twenty five per cent of the hole stop digging. Erm, you know, you can find this, to actually need to work on where you're at in the cycle and why you're there, and what it means, to what you're trying to do. [speaker001:] Do they not also need turning points, though. [David:] on that. [speaker001:] If you do, on, if you're in a negative cycle, and you do start getting positive reactions, if you're lucky and recognise that, can they not turn the whole thing around? [David:] Absolutely. Yeah. The trick is to lo to watch for them, to be aware of them, erm, [clears throat] because we've we've practically, better to go around the cycle, wherever you start, you can say, I chose to start here, but you can start anywhere, the minute you go in and give positive bits, which will create positive reactions, which will give you positive memory. You don't have to start at a attitude, but yeah, if you're watching for them, and you start to see signals, you need to be aware of these, because that's really the situation, isn't it, that's why I think you to be aware of influence. You said we needed to listen, we also got to watch, hear the words, what the words mean. What they actually [clears throat] you can get a lot of stuff out of that. Erm, what do you think he wrote on the other side of that bit of paper in front of you. What he actually wrote is, is your views on those four stages, relative to this particular situation. This particular case study. Do you recognise any. [Rosie:] No. [David:] Know, I don't know why I got you wrote, whether it's positive or negative. In fact, you may begin to get an inkling now, er, in terms of some of the words that you wrote down there. I'm seeing a few bright smiles here, which is, er, interesting. Yeah. [clears throat] What I'd like to do... [speaker001:] [cough] [David:] Is to, split up into pairs, and talk to each other about what you've written down. If it's negative, how are you going to turn it round to a positive. What can you get, where can you break that cycle. If it's a positive, how can you make it more positive, remembering our aim really is, good better better better better. Continuously improving. Erm, what I'd thought about, because at this stage we'd like to erm, perhaps start to get the feel of these little examples of application, How do these pairings sound for you. Er, I daren't give away Rosemary and John, 'cos they're the only two that can understand what the hell I'm talking about. before. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] The other four will agree with this one, very rapidly, but how do you two feel about that. [speaker001:] Yes. [Rosie:] It's a bit [David:] Yes, feel comfortable with that? Erm, I thought Damien and Phil might be able to work together. Yes. [speaker001:] No, no way. [David:] No way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Down the pub. [David:] rock-facing. [writing on board] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Er, er, Annette and Clare. I mean, I did try and and make a male and female split all the way round, on the basis that all team male and all female team done it earlier. But er, I have a feeling that you two might be able to work better. Is that Okay. [speaker001:] Yes. [Rosie:] Yes. [David:] Work in those pairs. Look at what you've written down. Think. Is that a positive sample I've got. How can I increase this positiveness... if it's a negative sample. What can I do to turn it round to a positive. What action point do I need to change, if I change it. Yes. I got twenty past, er, I reckon this should take about ten minutes to a quarter of an hour, okay. Talk through each one, and try and get that sample good luck. Yes. You can tell us where we are, paid off in the year conservatory. [Rosie:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] No. pay for the conservatory, today.

[speaker001:] Well, I wanted, basically to determine cereals, with the main ones. Sorry. The main, the two main ones there. Yeah. Different cereals, presume yours are old and er, [cough] It seems to be er, What, how, bearing in mind we're after ten er, ten horses and fifteen how many, erm, how many would you let us have, Well... the maximum [speaker003:] Certainly, [speaker001:] Yeah. Erm, I mean, horses, probably have two horses. [speaker003:] I think we're gonna [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] This is good news, we can actually let you have all the cows. [speaker001:] We've actually got quite a good er cow stock ourselves. Are you sure he give fifty notes. [speaker002:] Yeah, he did. [speaker001:] Yeah, effectively. Positive. Look at this. within one or two. [speaker002:] Did he. [speaker001:] Depends who er, need to discuss that. Yeah, I'll send him round nearer the time, I think. Well, erm, well obviously we've got some, as you know, we've got the timber all the material. Yeah. We could certainly erm, we could certainly address some of your needs in that respect, but erm, not all. Erm, so effectively, it's a, we'll be negotiating without a balancing of horses and on our part. Mhm. Erm, timber and materials, timber and materials on your part. And you don't want my cows. Er, we'll certainly be er after some of your cows, yes. But er, [speaker003:] We could throw in quite a lot of er, extra manure. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah, I mean our crops actually work better with horse manure, erm, then they do with er cow manure. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] The thing is we gotta got a slight problem in the transport [cough] back Isle of Mann a certain number of years. Yeah, it's the same with our blokes, erm, so I mean, we're perfectly willing to help. Yeah. If you would with us on the point of transport. Yeah. That's not a problem. So rea realistically, really, erm, bearing in mind we can't satisfy your need, your full need for ten cereals and fifteen timbers. Yeah. I mean, what are we sort of, what arrangement are we working within. Well, [speaker002:] Fingers crossed. [speaker001:] Yeah, what, no, tell us, what's the maximum amount of timber you could theoretically give us... on a good day. Well, on a good day, erm, we could give you ten. Yeah. But that's it, on a good day we could give you ten only, and we couldn't give you any more. Basically we've only got ten. Right. And we can't give you any over five horses. Are you sure? Positive. So you're saying, you've got five horses and ten Yeah. [speaker002:] On account. [speaker001:] And we can give you on account. Which was? [speaker002:] I'm buying. [speaker001:] Ah, right. Mm. Presumably you can give us, either fifteen or twenty. [speaker002:] Ten. [speaker001:] Yeah. We can certainly give you ten. [speaker002:] He wants to make an offer on our cereals. Maybe we shouldn't have had them, and left our horses to five. [speaker001:] Yeah, I mean, we, we, we couldn't, certainly couldn't give you any more than five. Right. So basically, we can give you ten for ten timber and... [speaker002:] Five cereal. [speaker001:] And five cereal for five horses, basically. [speaker002:] much as that. [speaker001:] What about er, fruit and veg. five pounds... Is there any chance of getting five veg and five fruit? Mm. What was the maximum number of cows you could let us have? We could let you have five. Five. Isn't there a figure higher than that? [speaker002:] What we could do. [speaker001:] Yeah. No. We could give you five. Give you ten sheep. We could also give you some coal. [speaker002:] Yeah, suppose to be reporting to industries in coal power, power station, No. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] wool and fibres makes you [speaker002:] yes. [speaker001:] Eight comes to mind. No, no no. Eight horses, maximum of ten horses, maximum of five cows. [speaker002:] Ten horses. [speaker001:] Ten horses. Sorry, sorry, sorry Ten ten horses, ten horses that you need. We can give you a maximum of five horses. Five horses and five cows. [speaker003:] How many cows of sheep. Oh, you said sheep. [speaker001:] Can't spare the sheep. [speaker002:] We don't want sheep. [speaker001:] I still think we're falling short of what we need. Mm. Erm, you interested in our veg and fruit. Yeah. Erm, if we were willing to throw that into the pot, Mhm. Erm, would you reconsider the offers you made on the horses in the offer. How much, if we definitely decided Oh it's an attractive amount. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] We can. Oh, do you now. The sheep are very attractive. We can't, we can't give you, we can't give you more than five horses on I think I think sheeps out of the bargain anyway, because we're both, sounds that we both got an over supply of the sheep. Mm. I can't give you a pound. It's all I've got. [speaker002:] Oh. But we wouldn't agree that erm, the lives the livestock is negotiable now. negotiating livestock [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] cereals of five. The maximum we can lay is five, yeah. And apparently cereal. So you want to, in respect of us offering you sort of fruit and veg into the bargaining, is er, [speaker002:] Make you change the horses. [speaker001:] we can't change the horses. Can't not that we won't. We can't do, we can't [speaker002:] What, do you only have five horses? [speaker001:] Well... no, right. But we need something to power of appeals. [speaker002:] Yeah, but we don't need, er [speaker001:] to society. [speaker002:] Would be easing, so to speak in sort of units of horses or electricity. [speaker001:] Okay, if plough the fields, if we were to supply you with erm, fruit and veg, erm, obviously that would, some of for you to plough the fields, in which case you would have more to to offer us. Mm. I mean, she coped nicely because, providing we maintain a breeding stock of horses, cows and sheep, we can perhaps help you out a little bit more on that if you could erm, help us some more on the timber. Mm. Because as well. Okay, if you're interested in it. So what what how, what could you increase the horse quantity to. I think probably be seven... horses. Would you reckon eight. I really anticipated breeding two horses, to keep a breeding stock. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] to breed. [speaker001:] I think think, we'd want, you know for that, we'd want to push the two, you know your offer of ten, erm, Okay, we we wouldn't settle for seven horses, then. For We've... [cough] Okay, we'd be willing to up the the, be willing to up the ten to twelve. Mm. I working on the training timber directly for horses, and then talk about cereal So... We'll exchange your seven horses for twelve of our timbers, and we'll throw in a quantity of barrels, I think. Barrels? Barrels. [speaker002:] Barrels. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What empty barrels, In which to store your oil, because of the heated [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] having transported [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Excellent idea. Er, forget out it. [LAUGHTER] I mean, I mean I'm in charge To be honest, empty barrels just take up space on the Mm. Yeah. We could possibly, could probably, er we could, say, we could probably give you fifteen All your own, Mhm. If you forget the horses for a minute. Mhm. We could give you fifteen if you want your timber to maximum. I think your your priorities obviously well, okay, it's it's pulse Horses are my life, and they're the two priorities So we, say we give you horses, Mhm. Could you give us say, fifteen in timber and and we both reduce the... We still need, we still need some fruit and veg, but er, I don't see that being a problem, you know. We'd strike a bargain at erm, at twelve to timber and seventeen... we're after. What about the er fruit and veg? Erm. Couple of units each of those? Yeah, we can throw in a couple of units each of those. So, let's just summarise. So you'll give us twelve timber, two materials, two veg and two fruit. Mhm. We will give you seven horses, fifteen oil [speaker002:] Five cans. [speaker001:] Five cans. Well let's take it or leave it. Any chance of you giving us another five units of something. [speaker002:] And a jack-pot. [speaker001:] Well, I'm giving you a total of er twenty-seven units. You're giving us a total of... twenty-three. [speaker002:] And we're giving you boats to transport it. [speaker001:] We'll we'll be we'll be, we'll be willing to give you. Well, you haven't said that, yet, have you? [speaker003:] I think transport being the problem. You could say we should agree with our sums. That's fine. But erm, we do seem to be coming out a little bit light. [speaker001:] Okay, how many units we go after? Well, we've... I would like... we're basically giving you all your cow requirement and all your oil requirement. Yeah. We're getting not all our timber requirement and, not all our cereal requirement, no. We're getting... So what what, if we can erm, three more timber. We can't. I don't think we can erm, talk about timber and cereal or be willing to up the Compensate with a little bit of extra veg and fruit. Would you give us all all our requirement for veg and fruit. What would you need? Or would that be impossible. Three, three of each. Three. Three of each. Yeah. [speaker002:] No, another three of each [speaker001:] Yeah. So you want five of each, like. And then we'll give you and seven horses. [speaker002:] It's not really interesting [speaker001:] Okay. Right. Okay. So let's... you're getting fifteen oil, Yeah. seven horses, five cows. Mhm. We're getting five veg, five fruit, twelve timber and what's it seven So you've got a surplus of... we're giving, units. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm. [speaker002:] manure if they're [speaker001:] Manure? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] throw in a, after a bucket load of manure. What's a bucket load? [LAUGHTER] It's about as much as you can carry. Erm. Want some sheep, they're not expensive. [speaker002:] No, we don't want sheep. Don't want sheep, do we? [speaker001:] No. we'll have the manure. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] I don't want any sheep. up to their necks. [LAUGHTER] Okay, we'll take our own couple of units, couple of units. [speaker002:] Couple of units. [speaker001:] And we'll be alright. Right, er, we need er, we need... thirteen units of pole stakes, because we've only got sixt, you've given us twenty nine units. We want sixteen units of pole stakes. Right. So you either either sell back to our sixteen units of poles and let us stay the night, or come back again tomorrow. Oh. It's an imposition. Oh, right, sorry, right. We can help you shut yourself over if you don't want to Yeah, that's basically. I believe two journeys, so we've got to come to you vice-versa, so I think Well if you've got if you've got sixteen units of space, if you come over with effectively, sixteen units of your, you know, agree to supply us with. Yeah. Erm, then you can take sixteen of our... units in your boat and we'll take the surplus, which is... I imagine two of our boats, erm, if we come over with all three, effectively, which is twenty-one, if you can, of ours. Making us a space to come back again. Yeah. Mm. I dont see why that's Yeah Which won't mean that sixteen units. So if we send two boats over, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] We then asked them to already booked. So do you have all you want, know. Erm, no, but we're ready to settle on what we've got. Same here. Mm. Where where abouts are you short? Well, obviously we would have liked a erm a lot more oil, oil, we got the oil, ain't we, the horses [speaker002:] Yeah, the horses. [speaker001:] But erm. So you got seven horses. Mm. Got enough to get us by. Yeah, we've got it all no problem. Yeah. Pleas pleasure doing business with you. [clears throat] The pleasure was ours, entirely. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I'm afraid the tide has now turned, and er, this negotiation will have to come to an end. There are some friends who are a get who get drowned, whichever ones that travel, so. Thank you for your negotiation. In terms of sort of feedback, with er, in the er, provisional way, of... [speaker002:] Sort of [speaker001:] Yeah. [clears throat] [speaker003:] Okay, let's start with the objectives. What sort of things were you [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] Hoping to get out of that negotiation? Perhaps we'll start with and then we'll ask. What was some of the things you were after... from that negotiation. [speaker001:] We knew what our were, were something like what they're they're requirements were. [speaker003:] Okay. So you had minimums, maximums [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] For each item. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] There, and you want to ascertain their requirements. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Any other objectives [speaker001:] Some negotiating with achieving some compromise at the end of the day. [speaker003:] Okay, so to negotiate and achieve some sort of compromise what are your objectives? [speaker001:] Er, what, we didn't get a discussion, what we decided was erm, because it was in negotiation [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] So I would be best to lay lay down the law straight away, what we needed, and what we didn't need. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Erm, we knew exac we knew what we wanted, what we got. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] We thought that's the only thing possible, and flexible as possible. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Because at once, that we we intend to satisfy okay. [speaker001:] So we could have sold, like have the cereals and the timber. [speaker003:] So that, there was some key objectives within that, some more important issues, that concerned the others. Okay. Can I ask generally, how did you feel at the end of that negotiations. Did you both feel you got what you wanted, got more than you wanted, less than you wanted. [speaker001:] We didn't get what we wanted, obviously. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Got top line maybe. [speaker001:] Got more than the bottom line. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So some satisfaction of the outcome. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. So you were somewhere between the top and the bottom line again on this... [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] This negotiation. [speaker002:] There's something, there's something [speaker001:] Sorry. [speaker002:] Perhaps we had, or we had no idea what they had to offer. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Right, okay. So you felt you were probably nearer the top line, than than the bottom line. [speaker001:] Perhaps not trying, probably probably knew. Because if you did, there's no [speaker002:] top line. [speaker001:] shot myself first. We did, we did, sort of, with only the horses, erm, so we lost out that way. Obviously they couldn't give us [speaker003:] I mean, some of these who could be passed round to see, to get the size, but some of these, in fact the grand total does not equal by the teams needs, in courses that's why they are unsuccessful. In fact, fifteen horses, was it fifteen horses [speaker001:] Er, yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] sacrifice the horses. [speaker001:] Sorry ten horses. [speaker003:] Ten horses available. Fifteen needed. So some of those are items you can't satisfy what you need, anyway, so it's gonna obviously have to be, somebody's got to go and satisfy some of those. But look at the negotiation you did, what were you doing well, what were some of the things that you needed most strength. [speaker001:] We were gonna have, if both sides knew that it was mutual benefit, we would handle, say, furniture. [speaker003:] Right. What do you think to establish that? How do you establish that? [speaker001:] Erm, Well, the initial boundaries, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you know the openings, Well, I I suggested to so. [speaker003:] Right. I think you're right, we were saying a little bit earlier, that. At the outset, some things are bit like a first round of a sparing match. Didn't come across like that, I think, [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] There may well be because of that. Right. Well, let's let's have class three on the table, and the on is, erm, [speaker002:] Yes, but we decided that we would ask them what, they could offer us first, or what they wanted, that is. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Before we actually... [speaker003:] Put your cards on the table. [speaker002:] For our part we wanted to know what they wanted, first. [speaker003:] So that was a deliberate strategy, in fact, they did it early anyway. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So it was never been an honest sort of work relationship, from the outset. So that's working well. What else? That's working well. [speaker001:] [writing on board] [clears throat] Okay, I think you both recognise that we're gonna have to make, but we realise it then, in the case of horses there are only ten possible, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] And fifteen were needed. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] So we would have have to make sacrifices in some respects. [speaker003:] Right, so you recognised early on, that you would have to make a move for some of the stances that you wanted. So there's er, there's er an important movement, actually. [writing on board] Yes. Any other things, see you doing well. [speaker001:] We actually saw alternatives... to what we were after. We could sacrifice, ought to get rid of some of the horses, and the cows and, we were quite willing to throw in the sheep, because that would reduced only to cereals, [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] In the hope of perhaps pushing up the timber and the fruit and veg. [speaker003:] Right. I mean, there were certainly elements of creativity, I think, there's was at the beginning, I heard about coal fire stations. [speaker002:] That was me. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I mean, there are plenty of options with this station, including, in fact, you could actually float the timber across, you don't actually carry it on the boat, you tie it to the back and float it across. Same with your barrels, if you want to transport barrels. Maybe get your horses to swim across. All those sort of things, that are maybe options, creative options, the ways round it, linking issues together. Maybe you find a new Any others? Strengths. Things that are working well. Right, the actually, yeah [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] the effectual record within negotiations. Can I just check out, how do you think roles within the teams. [speaker002:] We both erm, needed a spokesperson. [speaker003:] Right. Chief spokesperson here, another chief spokesperson there. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Any other roles you'd delegate? [speaker001:] In fact, that was only done as I walked through the door. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] There was something I saw, and I don't know whether it was deliberate or not. Erm, but take this team, there was somebody feeding information into the slowest person, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] They were actually say, no we can't do that, or yes we can do that. Erm, that may or may not have been deliberate, but it's very important, particularly within a group, erm of people in negotiation, who were clear about roles, and when I was out on the road, I used to occasionally take the out, and I'd go and see my broker and erm, I'd say, oh we love to do fish and chip shops, we love insuring fish and chip shops. And the sort of had a blue fit, and sort of say, no we don't, and very quickly you've got to mixed message. If you're not clear about the roles, and who gonna say what, you can end up actually totally competing each other. Anything else that we Erm, no. So, save a lot of things going to areas that you might do different then. Limitations. Areas [speaker001:] I don't know if it's a limitation, but it's certainly a weakness that I didn't trust, trust them, that's what they were saying, they surprised. [speaker003:] So you actually found yourself not trusting what was going on. [speaker001:] Even now, I don't know, I don't, you just said that there's stuff finance survive. [speaker002:] It doesn't matter. [speaker001:] No, until you said that, I still didn't, didn't trust them. [speaker002:] Poor Tim. [speaker001:] I'm sure you trust [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I'll cover you. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Were you aware that you weren't trusted. [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. in what way? [speaker002:] A bit pushy with the horses, you know, are you sure you can't, you know. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It's this sort of thing, I, well I'm sure you said that. [speaker002:] And get quite didn't you say, eight horses or something, fifteen. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Okay, so you felt, didn't trust them, they were were aware that you weren't trusting them. How do you think that helps under negotiation. [speaker001:] Can't do anything. [speaker003:] Right. What would you do differently in the future? [speaker001:] Try and get more trust in the outset. [speaker002:] I bet you you reach a certain stage where, you realise I don't trust you, which [speaker001:] I suppose we could have asked him outright, how many have they got, and how many we need. [speaker003:] Yeah, I mean, it could have been done with real honesty, but [speaker001:] Mm. But then we still wouldn't have known. [speaker003:] Well, that's right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] the specific answer or not [] [speaker002:] But is it driving a business. They got what they wanted, they got. [speaker003:] decide that. [speaker001:] I mean, you could have asked the same about us, on a lot of things. [speaker003:] And it maybe about a relationship that will build up with these people over a period of time and I know it's expensive as negotiation. You think about salesmen who've got ongoing relationship with their client. It maybe faithful for a long time, perhaps you build up that trust, and it's only once you've got beyond that, that you can then begin to actually influence er, negotiate with them. [speaker001:] I think would have probably, had more, if we'd had more time and reversed all and been clearer on our roles. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] So that when they said, are you sure you've only got x number of horses. We would have said, well, of course we have, because of, you know, we would had reasons and facts Mm. Perhaps to back that up. Albeit lies, but... convincing. [speaker003:] Right. So you reckon if you had more time to think about an overall, sort of, web, if you like, of [speaker001:] Deceit. [speaker003:] deceits [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Well, now you've put the words in my mouth, convincing lies, that is a ringer, I mean, nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] I'm sure it matters [speaker003:] Yeah, I think you're right, but I think you had certainly time there enabled those to be dealt with more effectively. Any other areas, didn't do so well. [speaker002:] We really needed a bit more of an introduction. Erm, another day, when you tried to set some, and we were all dying, and we kept carry on going, but we could have said somebody would on to each other, or whatever [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Sort of, priorities. [speaker003:] This perhaps ties into to that one a bit as well. It's about the rapport, it's about the introduction, it's about how we actually settle the thing from the outset. Yeah. Anything else. [speaker001:] A little bit more when somebody said to me. [speaker002:] Yes, [speaker001:] You said welcome to, wherever it was you know, we thought you came to us. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yes, but that's deliberately set up, that is. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] To get you to work at that. We see when we're introducing negotiation. If you're giving things away, give things away of low value to you, but of high value to them. Were there any things that were given away, that might be of high value to the opposition, given away for less than nothing. [speaker001:] Fruit and veg. [speaker003:] Fruit and veg, might be one example. There's another one as well, and it was actually from this side, given away, but wasn't received by this side. [speaker001:] Barrels. [speaker003:] Yeah, the barrels, I mean, of of no value, I think to, a layman because... [speaker001:] Craftsmen are experts in making barrels from the wood of trees, you have the use of barrels, except for storing the oil, you now have a large quantity of barrels available. [speaker002:] I think we oil, so we didn't want them. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] We're seeping [speaker002:] Oh, right. [speaker003:] I think, this group but we don't want to attack it. Don't want them, it actually lowers [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] The value to this team. Erm, I can't remember what happened at the end, if you were tempted to the barrel as well. [speaker001:] No, we didn't. [speaker003:] In fact, you probably needed some barrels, and I'm sure or were given away. It's gett, it's thinking about, you know, barrels, yeah, well everyone is giving them away. Perhaps your was thinking. [speaker001:] See, we'd given away all our oil, so we didn't need any barrels, and they were aware that the oil was a storage problem. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But there wasn't normally storage problems, normally had spare, seep out of the ground in, so we'll be alright. [speaker003:] Okay. In terms of the sort of, negotiation, were there any stages, when people were not telling you about [speaker001:] It got a bit confusing, writing it all down. Yeah. And trying to and see who was winning it and who was losing, you know, what the score was. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Three more units You know, we don't eat confuse would it. [speaker003:] Come on, see what you a bit. [speaker002:] I don't think [speaker001:] Certainly confused about, is how many horses [speaker002:] Yes, that was [speaker001:] our side. We we started off ten, aw, ten, [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right, so I think, on some occasions there was some confusion, although towards the end, it was certainly quite [speaker001:] Yeah, we do summarise where, what the mistake was. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] And see if there was any further room. [flipping pages over] [speaker003:] Certainly I think there were summaries in that note [speaker002:] Yeah, it was difficult for to be negotiating and to keep up with where we were. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yeah. Because it's going along so fast. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean, there were a couple of occasions, when he got a cheap negotiator, other people joined in as well, and then, I don't know, you got three or four different... [speaker001:] All got views as well. [speaker003:] I know it's something that's particularly welcome here, but it's quite important to think about seeking positions, rather than negotiation, otherwise it's set up in here. This negotiation. [speaker002:] Space. [speaker001:] It's very them them and us. [speaker003:] Might be worth just thinking about that for me, actually, have a a future negotiation. When I negotiate this person, they always go and sit across the desk. Maybe they don't like that. Maybe that comes in with a hat that says, Authoritarian, disciplined type of interview. And if I did come and sit face to face across the desk, it would have a discipline. [speaker001:] I think if you were gonna s use any other situation to this, with the quantity of information that you'd have to, to record, as we're going through, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Would have to be er probably a lot lower, this would probably be a maximum, because, I felt I needed a bit of time, to just sort of, you know, pass information. Yeah. And obviously if you playing cards close to your chest, you need something like this to sort of be able, you know, [speaker003:] Yeah, I mean, that's going, that it's actually quite powerful situations, normally er you got roles worked out, and exactly who's doing what. At times, I just take a breather, actually stop and say, yeah hang on a minute, let's just walk through and work out what's going on. Okay, any other sort of areas you'd like to think about for the future. [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] Not somebody else. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] this morning. [speaker003:] this morning. [speaker001:] I think preparation is is quite important. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm, we tend to get it it's just an exercise, but it proved a point that even in twenty minutes we were, we'd only got through only got through to doing ideals, [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] or fall-back and realistic, we didn't get any further than that. Just making it up as we went along. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You're right, erm, certainly an exercise twenty minutes, is about time, special timescale, but again a bit more time, might actually. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well I I was doing [speaker003:] Yeah, you gotta be the same. [speaker001:] He used to spend hours [speaker003:] Yeah, you end up caving in, because you think, oh, I've got a timescale, I've got to do something and actually cave in. I think, because maybe you haven't been flexible at the outset, and all you've ended up doing is scoring points off each other, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] for the first nineteen and a half minutes. Quite like that [speaker001:] Then again if you're... I think the only thing on that I would say is that, creativity in as a positive, erm, that that your there are loads of possibilities about how you could actually try and create situations, which would actually break down barrier, one of the barriers you had was, I'll give you one if you give me one. Yeah. You've actually got into number counting. Erm, there are other aspects about that that you could afford break that down, I know there was sheep, cows, for instance. I know the outlook. Well, we thought that. Er, you know, what could you do with it. Erm, maybe since the rams are a problem on the island, maybe you could get the horses over here, to work part of the year, and then foal, er, then you'll an agreement to have some of the foals back. I don't know, you know, erm, think about options, think about. One of the problems is when they're starting to optimistically with tunnel vision. Take those [cough] blue out there, sideways. Erm, but still getting, but we maybe getting a broader front on either focus too narrow a beam, sometimes it's too difficult to get that narrow boat to be on exactly the right spot. So keep creative can work. Yeah, it's issues, quite often as well. I remember when I was out on the road, I had a particular connection with, we had a motor bike policy, and it was an appalling risk, and it came up for renewal, and er, nobody had take it round the market, and I mean, that that was an idol threat, because nobody in their right mind would want this particular motor and we said, well not if they want to jack up the premium on it, they wanted to jack it up by about thirty or forty per cent, and and the broker was not very happy about this. But I said, alright, well we'll consider it, so long as you let us quote for the rest of the business. Erm, and if we actually get the rest of the business, we keep the motor pre premium down, at ten per cent increase, if we don't we're jacking it up by forty per cent. So, in fact, it's tying the two things together, and getting both bits of business. The motor is completely rubbish, won't be rubbish, but the profit bit is actually quite good. So it's actually sometimes thinking about, can I tie in something else to this, which may bring the whole picture, bring it all together, but be creative. Thinking things out. [speaker003:] But perhaps one other thing, I mean, it's all useful. I don't know how many times I have to say, that we've we've been there and we know all about this. But, didn't work out. Erm, my story of this, was I I failed to recognise the role status. I at roles, and at one stage I almost did. Er, the secretary gets out of her chair, and she while I have a look, and you can hear annual negotiation, and er, and the golden rule for negotiating was er looking at your list up there, and he was a boss, he was also working as a colleague, he was even a friend. He of friends, and I thought well, when we're going into this, you know, he's obviously coming in as a colleague, because actually he was a member of the same damn union. And it was a ridiculous situation, so I went along and said er, look Jack er, we're going to go into the annual palaver, I mean, you know, very high inflation. I said, you're gonna come in at two per cent, and I'm gonna come in at twenty-two, and we both know that actually we're gonna up finish between eight and a half and nine, don't we? Which we did. I said, so so shall we actually save each other time, and we'll both come in with reasonable, reasonable, till we open our pay, you know, erm, stand-points, and he said, yeah, all right. So we, we went away, putting our package together, and we went in we sat in the either end of the table. He said, you've got er, your package for this year, as requested. I said, yes, here it is. And he said good, and here's ours, and we passed them along the table, and we wrote down two point six, I said excuse me, could I just have that back, there's a slight typing error, excuse me, sorry twenty-two per cent. And of course, we settled at eight point six two or something ridiculous. I mean, we were exactly where we said we were gonna be, but suddenly I didn't realise that he was boss. He had to show other people, that he had gone because that was what boss's did. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] And he had to do that every year in order to satisfy his stance his hat that he was wearing, that he was actually being the boss, and knocking the workers down, look I'm holding down, what twenty-two point on six, er and he believed that my need was that I could go back to my manager, and say, look I got him up to two point one,. Erm, we both had something to gain, but equally we had something to lose and maybe that's the sort of things, we think about to change the cost. The cost of doing that it was too high for him. safest, reputation, so he couldn't do it, he couldn't change so, I've been there. It won't always work, if you think you've [speaker001:] Shall we begin to pass out the oppositions... [speaker003:] team. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] Who are you, you are, what's your name, touch of the old garden, touch of the old garden, do you. [flicking through papers] Good... Okay. In terms, of sort of where we are in the course, we spent yesterday having a look at, and yes this morning, having a look at planning for England. And we spent [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] having a look at some skills, [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] In terms of listening terms. Getting down to specific information and in terms of negotiation. The fun part of the course tomorrow morning, it actually involves you in doing a role play, with one of your colleagues. Your colleague plays your person your trying to influence, you obviously play yourself, trying to influence them. Now we're looking for tomorrow for about a twenty minute or so role play. And if you're still going after twenty minutes or so, we'll stop you. Which doesn't really matter, because just we're just looking at a snap-shot of [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker003:] actually going on. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] So tonight you're actually to do a little bit of discussion, and tonight, tomorrow morning, discussion with your colleague, to brief them in terms of what they need to do to fulfil that role. How they actually need to play it. Erm, but we aren't going to the sort of, end of degree, that er, I say this, and then you sort of enter stage left and say this, and I respond like this, and then erm, something else happens, and then somebody comes crashing in through the door. It's er, obviously, you'll need to give them a briefing, so they can play the character, but to the end of degree, 'cos you'll need to respond to things that they say, as indeed, you'll have to back in influencing situation, back in your own department, back in your own ground. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] So think about, in terms of preparation, for the influencing situation, but what are some of the things you might want to do. Not that I want you to agree with your colleague, but check perhaps, particularly for a bearing yourself. What are some of the things you want to think about for tomorrow. Er, exercise? [speaker002:] Structure. [speaker003:] Right. Need to think about a structure. Okay. What in particular on that? [speaker001:] How you'll introduce certain people. [speaker003:] Right, in terms of the of the dealing with the intro. Anything else? [speaker001:] Terms of the structure. Whether you're gonna do all the talking, or whether you're gonna write down ideas. [speaker003:] Right Okay, so whose ideas, whose contribution. [writing on board] So we've got an introduction. Anything else. Terms of the structure. [speaker001:] What you're negotiating points are, all about the [speaker003:] See the negotiator stance. Position, if you like. Yeah. Anything else? [speaker001:] structure. [speaker003:] about introductions. Might need to think about what are some of the things, that I would want to have as a conclusion. Lead to that, certainly. But whereabouts do you hope to be at the end of twenty minutes, however long we've got. What other things might you want to be thinking about, in terms of preparation for this one. [speaker001:] erm, outcomes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right, yeah, outcomes, perhaps you're looking for. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Which is again related back back to that. I mean, a whole variety of other things from erm, put ten extra staff to erm, it could be, that actually I just open the doors, so that ne next time I could actually go back in. That's that's measurable. Some are very clearly measurable, but nevertheless measurable. Any other things that might be in terms of preparation. [speaker001:] Anticipate what they might say. [speaker003:] Right, there's a bit of about anticipation. [writing on board] Yeah. Anything else. Right. [speaker001:] Anybody else wanting to be talking last day of term, it might be worthwhile now. Don't you think. [speaker002:] Surely is. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Difference in roles. [speaker003:] Right. It's it's about roles. Where am I coming from? What kind of role. And not only that, but where are they coming from, and how do I signal who I am? And indeed, if I'm in a different role to what I am normally. How do I make that particularly clear? They always see me as The Boss, and I don't want to The Boss. What are some of the ways that I can actually make that clear. Anything else? Perhaps just a couple of others, you may want to think about things like Questions. Let's have a few questions up our sleeve. Maybe some avenues, that we want to explore. [writing on board] You might want to think about things like that. What I also want to think about the model, the positive outcomes, remember that. If, maybe I've got a negative outcome to the relationship to this one, are there any things I [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] or positive. So maybe I'll start off, maybe memories after you are only plans, start off with some positive plans. And you'll start working round something there. So that you can think about er... positive outlook is one of them. [writing on board] So perhaps, a host of things to think about in terms of preparation, maybe not all of those are gonna be suitable, a relevant few, preparation this evening, but perhaps, if focusing in at least some of those, might help to to give you the opportunity to persuade to influence your colleague. [speaker001:] I think the only thing I'll say, you know, it's been a real odd situation, really, horse for your bit, you reckon how well do I know this person. The bit on the video, something to do with that bit, where she says to him, What did, what are you going to say? And what's he going to say to that. And what are you going to there. If she suddenly erm, you gonna have to, sort of, do this, I think it's ridiculous, but you know. You find a very very small group, and erm, perhaps you can do this yourself. Sounds ridiculous, but you say, oh erm, you're not gonna like this, and he's gonna say, bloody right I don't like you. So that's not good news Erm, if I can show the way of overcoming that problem, how, would you be interested, and you say, that problem's always been difficult for me, you know what can I say then, can't say, you ready to train yourself to think, you know, physically you a little bit of actually, putting yourself in their world. Remember you've got to influence them in their world, you can't just live in your own. You'll be very good, if left carrying on in their own world, for the rest of their time. Just think about it, I mean, in a real life situation, think about, ought you think about, imagine what how much do you know about, do you need to use your network, to find out what I do that but curtain across the window in case you get [LAUGHTER] what is it. So how do you get neighbours... as a senior employee there, you sell tickets to them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Okay, so a whole of things to think about, certainly for the role plays tomorrow but, indeed, for a situation back in the real world. Okay, well maybe we could have called it a day now. However, what we're gonna do, is usually at nine o'clock in the morning er, ready to start filming. I think, has everybody got their pair, who they're working with, [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker003:] The person you've been working with over the last couple of days. That's alright, we can we can swap them round, I think, if we have them play first in one group and. [speaker001:] I think we could work [speaker003:] We'll work something out about what what's gonna happen. Work work with your pair, erm, for now, and overnight, what we'd like you do is, obviously decide for yourself your strategy, but also if you can brief your other half, as to how they need to play that role, to get you the best opportunity of practising the skills. Now I'm not looking to people to be totally bloody minded, erm, but I'm gonna for people to sort of totally cave in, erm, with these newly acquired influencing skills, because as we've said all along, they will work on some occasions, but they're not gonna work all the time. So, you need to make your colleague work for what they get, without being totally sort of bloody minded. But actually just cave in. Looking for about twenty minutes or so. Erm, to get some feedback at the end of those. Okay. Anything else Now, just before we all er disappear, can I just quickly check what we want to do about the departure. I guess there's only six of us, who probably finish about mid-day tomorrow, erm, of which time there are various options. Erm, you can have a twelve o'clock bus, if you wanted to sort of flee your premises, with a packed lunch, or without a packed lunch, if you er, if you don't want to do that. If you want to have a lunch, and then to just shoot off afterwards, we would probably get you in the staff lunch, I should think... but I'll need to check that, if not you'll have to wait till half past twelve, to have a, to have a lunch. Or erm, no, that's it, that's the various options. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] . I think I'm gonna have lunch at one, so Right okay, we'll put you down for twelve.

[speaker001:] lunch time back on from Aberdeen. [speaker002:] make yourself available. [speaker003:] Er tomorrow and er Thursday are even more critical than today when we actually haven't got any hard of hearing members in today. Er [speaker002:] I don't th when I tested it, it doesn't affect the hearing aid. [speaker003:] Doesn't no, but the point if that was being contemplated and today we get away with it but we wouldn't get away with it tomorrow or Thursday. [speaker002:] Well the only think which erm, which erm... I I and I said look this er system because no way. [speaker004:] before before the meeting proper may I refer you to first of all the voice amplification system is currently working but er there are some difficulties with it and it may during the day deteriorate to a state that it is more trouble than it's worth. In which case the er calculated very kindly brought in a system mikes so, so be warned of that please. Secondly I did write to all the members of the Council about the issue of the British National Corpus and their desire to have a record of English as she is spoke and their is a gentleman from here today, if you would care to stand up to identify yourself please. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker004:] Who I have no doubt will be very happy to discuss with members during lunch break what what the Project is. [speaker001:] O K thank you. [speaker004:] confirm that the minutes of the twelfth of October are correct.... Yes I just wondered if I could ask Mr er if it was item nine page seven yes, its item nine erm row five and its about a report being brought to the committee on trans proportion policies relating to public transport by extending free transport to school children and students beyond the statuary obligations of the council. Er I just really wanted to know when that's likely to occur. [speaker001:] . [speaker004:] Oh I don't think I'm able to give you a specific answer. Erm will question. [speaker001:] . [speaker004:] There are 2 petitions on the agenda but the one will be taken with item 2. I therefore call upon, Chairman of the village association, to present a petition about traffic at. [speaker001:] Mr Chairman councillors, ladies and gentleman as chairman of the village Association I am pleased to present the following petition which has been signed by 174 residents representing over ninety five per cent of the. We the undersigned being the residents committee for Hertfordshire County Council bring forward and promptly carry out plans for the through the village especially in view of the notorious and dangerous traffic conditions and designation of the A four two five one through the village as the southern entrance to from the A forty one bypass road. Mr Chairman, the traffic problem has been with us for many years as our village existed before the motor car. The old A forty one trunk road just grew up through our village erm and erm just exists. We now have a splendid new bypass road for which thank you very much, the only problem is that it has halved the traffic but doubled the speeds. Erm our problem can be summed up in one word, "accidents". The major cause of these accidents is drivers going too fast for the road conditions that exist in our village. There are two different areas of these accidents, one the driveways of the various village's some of which are blind erm with no pavements and also the four minor roads which junction onto, onto the main road in the village. In section 1 of two hundred metres of road we have counted over twenty six accidents, people coming out of the drive, parking cars and this kind of thing erm in the last five years. These are accidents that did not involve personal injury but involved er physical damage to walls, cars, gates, driveways etc., with cars coming down the road. Now, I'm not an expert in [cough] [speaker004:] modern traffic calming measures however er I believe we have experts on the Council er in these matters but I believe that by narrowing the road and perhaps giving us pavements because one of our problems is that we have not got a continuous pavement through the village, and it is necessary to cross the road four times in some cases to walk from one end to the other. Erm and possibly the installation of mini roundabouts at the minor junctions erm would give us quite a lot of benefit. see what has been done in Kings Langley and Apsley for something similar, on a similar scale, for ourselves. Thank you for listening to me. Please give us some expert assistance. Thank you. [Tony:] Thank you very much for that and er.... There has been no other business items and the same for there's been no questions either. Before item one, I'd like to propose we break for lunch as near as one o'clock as business allows. For the convenience of the members of the public I intend to take item five by erm statement. [speaker006:] one or two members who are resident in St Albans did ask me about their position on item two St Albans Transport Study er the advice that I gave them was that unless they er did which is likely to be affected by any identifiable schemes in the study they do not have a need to declare either a pecuniary or a non-pecuniary interest. [Tony:] We now move onto item one. hand over some questions at the end of each section I will then ask each spokesman to present their budget. [speaker004:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er you will all be aware I think that the budget has been running for some months and er I suppose a lot of you either as spokes persons or as members of groups have actually been dealing with the budget issues in some detail. Therefore, I don't propose to take a great deal of time going through this report. You will also have heard er in the question earlier about the fact that there are references to budgetary issues both in the minutes of the last Environment Committee and also in the County Council on thirtieth of November which did refer specifically the fire service review and also passenger transport. In terms of the process erm we are the first er major service committee to consider its budget for next year and I think everyone will be looking at us to to set a pattern for the rest of this week. Erm what will happen is that we will er hopefully at this meeting er set a budgetary, budgetary position within the guidelines required by the policy committee and then that will go forward together with all the other service committees to the policy committee on the twenty seventh of January and from then we will go on to the County Council on the fifteenth of February.... The the committee itself erm the report itself is structured in that it takes you from the starting point of this year's ninety three, ninety four resource budget. It then proposes and suggests some certain technical adjustments and makes allowances for previous policy decisions and losses of income etc., and leads you through to er being able to propose a package measures within the policy committee guidelines. Table one on er page three er which refers to mostly to F appendix one, er of seventy three point nought million pounds or ninety four-ninety five er moving to seventy two point eight million in ninety five-six. And seventy four point two in ninety six-ninety seven. As I've said the Policy Committee guideline was that we should set a budget within the range seventy two million to seventy three point three million, which means at the lower level, if you go for the lower level er to which says for ninety four five about almost exactly a million pounds. If you go for the higher limit, then that allows you to go with the growth of approximately three hundred thousand. The following pages er then describe the budgetary changes commentary on a number of and I don't propose to go through them individually. Except I think just to emphasize one or two minor issues but the savings from last year, that was the underspendings from ninety two ninety three were, as you recall last year er used to support this year's budget er those savings underspending are no longer available and therefore have been taken out of the consideration... The staff costs for T S G schemes that are mentioned at the bottom of page five erm, the programme this year which is actually listed over the page at table two does erm indicate that erm we are now contemplating link road and bypass next year and staff available are needed to complete that work or fortunately we've been able to secure a start on which enables some of the staff to be transferred to work on that scheme. Moving on then to the capital programme erm which is summarized in table two on page six and er go into that in detail in the two. At the bottom of page six, top of page seven I think that issue there requires a resolution from you in that we have, the officers have suggested that we spend er six hundred thousand pounds out of the minor works budget on those four schemes but we should reserve the remainder of that minor works budget for approximately and er that report should be put to the March Committee.... paragraphs last five er and six er identify identify the number of options for, for change which allows you to er determine the authority budget and to either go for growth to within the overall particular areas, savings in particular areas, or to make switches of resources between services or within services.... One or two of the items of growth particularly have been er identified as illustrative which may mean that you can choose er almost any amount you like er to be spent on those particular items just identify er a figure which you may consider the starting point. And als also mention some of the, some of the items do have staffing implications and if you resolve to increase expenditure in certain areas, such as traffic problem. That will require additional staff and we need to er look at that afterwards to see what effect that has on the er staffing budgets.... There are also some there which er can or cannot at your discretion for more than one year er terminology now being used about recurrent not recurrent expenditure, it's up to you except where we are, you are resolving to recruit staff or reduce staff erm, it would be useful to have an indication from you as to whether you wish the money to be erm carried through until next year or whether you can see it as a one off.... Just picking up on an item on page fourteen about the externalization programme that obviously is going straight through the process er and should be resolved in the next week or so. picking up the staff costs there was some concern about putting that in there because we were awaiting the result of the T S G settlement. That settlement has now come through you'll see the details in the papers er but we also want to have regard to the fact that the award for the and bridges has actually been reduced substantially by thousand pounds the total reduction in that area approach one point five million pounds.... Page sixteen structural maintenance of local roads erm I know that there is some possibility that er groups will propose an increase er a reduction in in that area and to increase the contribution from the management reserve fund. If it goes as high as an additional half a million each year then the structural management fund will not last through the three years. need to be aware of that. The paragraph eight budget monitor does require also a resolution in relation to carried forward from [speaker001:] [cough] underspending this year.... You will have erm before you on the sheet a number of resolutions from the groups in relation to the budget and although the motions haven't been put, I'll just refer you to a statement which I produced which seems to compare the compare the motions the draft motions from each of the groups. Er from which you will see er three entirely different packages, proposals, and er... why why this was achieved. One of the at the end of this meeting [clapping] Can I just make the point of clarification in what said there, that as far as staffing additional works spread through for example we are assuming that staff costs are within the figures you are looking at and the the work that was referring to was was after you made your decision to will need to take some element of that cost into the start of the budget there is no staff figures that would occur after you've formalised this budget we are not aware of so there there will be. [speaker004:] I can then take questions I think er answer any questions that you might have. [speaker001:] Mr can I just ask the erm about the I think it's very that he's produced this er so that we can look across and make sort of comparisons between the proposals of the groups. Erm presumably we are talking here next year, talking about sort of years effects, and I just wondered what would be the effects that in general terms if we were looking at the full year effects? [speaker004:] Erm all the figures there are as far as I know full year effects, so there are no half year effects. Those different effects in following years in relation to we got. Er this er James can I ask you erm if we could establish what the stage er the next stage remain unspent probably er so that we the er paper indicates er er schedule of balance of a thousand pounds. [speaker007:] Chairman to that question are rather caused forgive me if I to answer that question. Er members will recall that the potential savings that might from the original was something in the order of eight to nine hundred thousand pounds and of course the majority of those er present the saving will be policy will be consideration. Erm I'm not at all certain quite er what will come out of that policy and what savings there will be at the end of that exercise. This report does touch on if I find the paragraph speak.... Thank you, does touch on that issue and refers to the point that I made earlier that that the proposals having been referred to that policy and how it meets with er more work. I'm not saying I can give you a figure, all I can say is that originally identifiable will not be forthcoming now because some of this proposal is not meeting them. Er er rejective the issues requested by the earlier policy. I am sorry I can't be any more help with that at this stage what I can do is to take that question away and circulate the information after I've done some sums. discussion with the Chairman. the Chief Officer don't quote me by it embarrass er I've had with carried out on a larger sum other than that available. At worst. [speaker004:] Are there any more questions? [speaker002:] I am concerned in seven two as eventually savings. While we are talking about the reassured that we not going to be dealing with the position of.... [speaker004:] Was that er question environment? [speaker002:] I'm sorry Chairman, what am I being asked? [speaker001:] Forgive me Chairman erm I actually question [clapping]. I do apologise, I do apologise yourself order I see it's been placed on the early question question again? [speaker002:] Chairman I asked you Item seven two when the talking of laying and reassurance that this will not include the of the above. [speaker001:] Which is certainly right. [speaker004:] seven two er refers to planning environment er and not to and also refers to a type of actually. [speaker001:] Since the confusion environment issues erm, three minutes perhaps the questions can be answered at the. I can say that erm none of the bonuses that currently exist within the fire rescue service are included upon [cough] so no determination has been made about as yet and therefore upon that are not included in these calculations. [speaker004:] Are there no further questions? I will pass you over then to erm Mr to make a presentation. [York:] Chairman of my all of the offices or er tremendous amount of work which has gone into the local report to the Committee, er but also to the tremendous amount of work which has been done behind the scenes which I know has been going on with er that is quite good for the officers erm looking at the budget er i in the line with what actually saying for them. I would like to move erm er the grant most of this on the er the order of make up erm both with one to eight. Erm and although I will briefly go through some technical ones erm motion number two to erm er because it's in relation to growth savings that we have the differences between the budgets and which are actually being er proposed and er I suppose we do need to to go through number six carefully as well about structural maintenance funds. Er we actually need to withdraw from but I think in relation to the other business about the erection of the I think that essentially routes are agreed without er without so perhaps it's structural erm maintenance. Erm the the first er labour motion is really still a technical one [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] quickly go to to number number two. L it's presenting the changes for the next year er are really so we can have a two way and a two big. Er two ways essentially erm the labour see erm for next year. We are operating within a of because of the government this Council is erm nett cuts of all its services of four point two million reduction of four point er two million and the policy system. Er to look at the budget for ninety four to ninety five in ranges of seventy two million to seventy three point three. The seventy two million erm for this Committee is the labour that would involve roughly er nett savings of about one million er pounds because we and no doubt all the routes of course have to look at the social budget and where their priorities are and in order for us to er do other things perhaps indication in relation to and also will provide primary school er budgets. We do need to be looking essentially about budget of two million pounds erm for this particular er Committee. What the is saying to of er of savings is that in the Appendix Four summarises the possibilities for savings for next year. Erm the labour group is prepared to accept all of those, accept, one er exception er related relates to item number twelve so that is the information the planning and environment erm in parliament. Er now we think that is absolutely er essential and that should have a serious effect on Information Services. very much but we think it important that you. Erm if you look at what we are proposing, planning and environment in terms of er in terms of [speaker001:] [cough] [York:] to say that in fact various significant costs budgets for for next year's. Very much the view of of this group that we have an excellent planning and environment department service led by a distinguished er director and say that. Erm and we would very much er long to see work that department does erm continuing er also be continuing er beyond actually. So its taking quite a. The other exception to accept the erm the the savings identified as possibilities relate to item thirty structural and maintenance of of the roads we could make a cut of of half a million. Erm we are saying that we certainly couldn't go that far, maybe two hundred thousand but we would want to put it back so you will have an equal there in terms of spending. From the structural maintenance I think all members who remember before they start er [speaker001:] [cough] [York:] structural benefits that we do have this backlog twenty six and a half million pounds of work. We're not talking just about roads, we're talking about what we call technically, I've thought about what everybody else calls pavements. Er now these are more important asked about so I think we should be very clear on it before er we reduce spending. In terms of growth that we actually want erm unlike I think perhaps one of the we don't want to put all our eggs into erm [clears throat] one one basket erm one million pounds in terms of er of course we want to do that the income of the budget which is actually feasible and practicable er in terms of of I take it that as where it says the Liberal Democrats are going from a growth of a hundred and fifty million erm on town centres that there probably was an error. In terms of transportation growth. Erm want to see expansion in half a million there. Passenger transport in order to promote the new transportation erm policies of the [cough] to get off the ground erm during the erm previous council. seriously do need to put erm into the passenger transport. Town centres er we think there should be growth of two hundred thousand, it's not enough. Erm we are still not going to enough we we need something like just over half a million to do all the schemes er which er and we could do next year and this Committee is going to have to decide there, which er town centres are actually going to be done and which are going to be erm left out. [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] In terms of planning growth erm right take orders item number four erm, this is really just a correction because attendance for fifty nine should actually be fifty. Erm and in terms of rights of way er growth orders we would like to see growth of two hundred about two hundred pounds. This route must be taken very seriously er rights of way, planning investigation for the environment which as I did problems the other sources in terms of right of way, in terms of unresourcing rest of the backlog giving instructions in terms of. They're all underfunded you've got to report we need to actually er the rest of that so that's very er important. Noticeable notice that our our growth er, [cough] items er six and seven additional enforcement officer er officers for countryside protection, er we can actually like to do that and I'll just come on to that in a moment when I get to two B but also in terms of growth er this group wants to see ten er whole time fire fighters, additional whole time fire fighters erm we won't get better in terms of confidence though fire engine survey this year but we we'd rather sort of form [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] that the Home Office er er and Chief Fire Officer not for the first time er this year but in previous erm budget. [speaker001:] [cough] [York:] er originally one twenty additional whole time fire fighters to be go. fire fighters. Er we feel that it's very important that we do have an additional ten so that er what before next day to Royston and initially on a temporary basis erm for at er er Watford so we address the problems in those areas. Erm trading standards er European Community Union erm is putting up more and I think most of us would say that in this area are to be welcomed [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] growth of eighteen thousand. If I could Chairman erm just a little bit erm about the erm conservatives erm proposals. Erm what the conservatives are going to do is they do what's in a sort of er is going for very considerable cuts in the budget of this erm. They are not going to support [cough] erm ten additional er fire fighters. They are not going to do anything to the rights of way in spite of what they are being asked to do by the Well it's very, they are talking about er other issues up to they are talking about the workforce and of the erm [cough] the the report from the and er it seems that they don't really want much to programme forward which I have put for next year very structural maintenance of the and I what the services are actually doing, they have lost council probably say that they are out of control. Erm and their approach seems to be where we're not going to be able to get our budget through. Erm let let's sort of cut or let's go without our saying erm we will keep you off the council. Well it ain't going to work because for a part that have slammed V A T on domestic fuels and in fact if all of the cuts of the conservative government, all the tax increases you have quoted cuts. It actually amounts to an increase of ten p in each [speaker001:] [cough] [York:] government, it it's various years so I hate to sort of say, ah well council taxes cuts will be a bit lower er with the conservatives going to be an argument which is but halfway to equal counties so I think we can sort of discount really what the conservatives say but I will say the liberal democrats are to be. Erm we which is actually putting forward a budget which is responding to what the Policy Committee asks us to do. Er it said produce seventy two to seventy three three, so two produces a budget of seventy two million in two b you can see but you will see in two b [cough] that we are actually saying you can have an actual sort of implemental approach which will take you up to three billion. Erm you will notice that er halfway through which is after item five, er I have actually done the sum because it comes to sort of half er half a million, er and it's [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] what we're saying to the liberals, you know, well sort of have a look at this, look at what we're sort of proposed [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] because we know what we want to go beyond. We would be amenable to er friendly amendments, erm of er er we know you wondered what more instructive perhaps we do [speaker001:] . [York:] because we don't fuss, we don't the balance public transport, rights of way, traffic calming, erm er er and so on. Erm so who do we put into the suggestion of perhaps you will look at that with a very serious and maybe sort of er or by to take seventy three million. In terms of which you better if we could do that erm, if we could do that. I went to look because most of for five erm and we all agreed on er technical and er [speaker001:] [cough]. [York:] number six er what this is basically saying is we want to do two point history structural maintenance erm fire drill but anything that's been taken out of this budget in that area, we should replace by from that. [speaker004:] Thank you very much Mr is that er [speaker001:] . [York:] Thank you. [speaker004:] We now pass over to Charles. [speaker009:] Thank you erm well that was a very interesting introduction usual political statements there are many of interest to this County Council and its services, erm their worth repeating as part of the time just to to add to the with the labour party er for us prices. [speaker001:] [clapping]. . [speaker009:] Conservative Party, I listen to you. The whole essence of Conservative Party that's put before the Environment Committee today and I remind us that it was only in a very short few months ago that this Council might be at cuts of up to twenty million pounds in order that low in the very country. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker009:] And er can can we scrape away to say Chairman that er, you know this, this, this situation er it is not to do with government policies, we are paying a very heavy price to this country for world recession as we have paid this very high price, very very large amounts of money that had to be used for people who are unfortunate enough to fall out of employment. We have, we are also paying for the very very high price for that er and so it at where we look at, the money we are proposing to spend er in the future that we are grouped in that direction and that's the, that's the er budget today. Erm I don't need to go through er all of the elements er er I will take it because there is general agreement er er with a very large and this is good to see that all of us er in all three groups are proposing to take advantage of savings identifying in the various departments County Council. Erm I would like to say a few words about the Fire and Rescue Service, er the Fire Cover Review Panel er which rests erm with couple of months before Christmas er it's first meeting, received a report from the Chief Officer that in restructuring the Fire Service to get better use out of it to er spread the cuts could find savings of up to nine hundred thousand pounds in that process and they are friends in the Labour, Liberal Democrat groups have simply taken the good aspects of that the plus side of it and rejected the side what faces the side anyway. [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker009:] In other words they are being totally unfair in that process and as a result of this more people are likely to suffer as a result of fire Council and savings which are clearly er is proposed er that is Conservative review that we should not be using new money or money within the environment budget which is better stretched for all the other services, to find that other fire fighters as much as we agree they are needed when clearly there is another pot of money which was available for this service and which the other two groups have decided they will take and so this group is prepared to addition [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] fire fighters which will give us er more consistency in cuts we have Chairman of their meeting er er a number of months er during the past year when we are by Home seventy five. I have no doubt that we could around that figure but the Chief Officer rightly believes and indeed Her Majesty's Inspector rightly believes that we are operating too much technology most of the time. Er the other fire fighters would enable us to hit that target on a regular basis and in fact we will also the target during those periods when. Er so we are all very keen to see this get these extra fire fighters but as he hasn't identified the source for which they could pay more, this believes that fifty thousand pounds which slices, there is a good way of doing it and suggest that that's the way we should do it. Erm in terms of rights of way we are very concerned indeed as a group er the rights of way and this purpose we have identified er an additional fifty thousand pounds in which we hope will help [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker009:] er to advance [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] er I'm sorry to produce the problems er erm we cannot this time for large sum of money which er the labour group in particular er want to provide in this area er to spend on rights of way. We believe that there are on a number of priorities er and this one does not seem quite as high er on our list as it does er on the labour. Erm... we are very concerned at these er in terms of traffic calming. The one thing that seems to be identified by members of the public er when they come here and address present erm petitions to us as they did this morning er they want in most parts, in Hertfordshire. They want to regain the natural environments. They don't want their children to be underspread everytime they walk out. So traffic calming er is very very now er an agenda supports the general thrust of this County Council [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] Road Safety had national accolades er and so that is a very important element for us. It is also that the the maintenance of our road schedules continues to a very high standard and so we aren't er, we have to take er the money from that source er and I will be hoping that perhaps in this we may find that we do not need to raid that particular fund so that we may find [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] sums of money from general purposes or whatever. Er so we are concerned that that money perhaps future time so that we can continue to spend whatever money we are doing at the present time er to our roads. Er passenger transport, er we have over the last three four years er taken sort of er in passenger transport. This has been done with very harmonic negotiations on contracts, er big operators er and our substantial savings. Many of us would have liked to have seen the savings that were made, recycling of the passenger transport area. It was unfortunate that during this period of time there were a number of pressures er on us, not just County Council for that money to be spent elsewhere and that money was er brought back to the centre and we distributed all of the the Services. Er on this occasion we would like to see some of the savings that were made recycled in the passenger transport area. Er because this would support policies which er, this County Council produce all last year. It's the usual transportation policy to have in general as [speaker001:] [clapping]. [speaker009:] Er and so think er not we should not just have a policy for the we should put some money towards it as well. So we would have an additional two hundred pounds. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] Er trading standards continue to be under pressure er we ought to agree on that er and we I I believe we may not have difficulty er in achieving the additional value of this type of almost on an annual basis if we are short of the trading standards. Er if I deal with the er sob sheet now Chairman erm I move the resolutions on the conservative group er that er er the budget er of seventy one point three based on appendix four with the amendments table. Erm there is an error in that we have included er at two in that we have added in a reference there to further additional meant that we have taken the budget earlier guidelines here three point three, we are not proposing to do that and therefore that should be deleted. [speaker001:] . [speaker004:] Erm and Items er six er it is now voted that that figure er should be [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] point six million er from reserves er and the additional as we have said this to er our traffic calming proposals. er earlier question to have added er a further resolution at that's a hundred and fifty thousand pounds of identified savings from the Fire Recovery Review Panel be used to add an additional fire fighters updatable this be er general. It will remain that this will eventually er and we will in fact. Er I move the [speaker001:] I think Mr is that before we set the. [speaker002:] Yeah before. May I ask you a question on erm, the main question on the sixth. [speaker001:] Chairman can I just clarify that we we're saying up to the erm what I've said in speaking was that two point one million beyond that what is actually in the budget erm which is. We wanted a neutral budgetary tax overall.... [speaker004:] There are no. [speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman, before I start there are erm a number of sort of type errors. fifty thousand and do not fifty million. Erm the total on the savings side should be two point four three that is the erm the sheet that we have received this morning is correct and lastly I think number six so those points can be taken on board Mr Chairman I will start. First of all to thank the officers for all their hard work especially those who er staying until half past eight, nine o'clock last night who tried to to supervise. break budget ninety four ninety five. In doing so there are a number of people wish to see on what to do. Firstly, we want to keep our policies and to start our committees. I'd like to. Essentially we want to go to agreements concerned brilliant services in the county. The services that this Committee provides are important. transportation policies for the County Council through to last year. Er this is. Lastly we want to sort of clear up some of the mess that is made by the previous conservative registration. [clapping]. Well let's go through it. savings and the use of these quite a lot of priorities. our first priorities is to pay fire. We already S S A on the fire service. I've included every Home Office, Home Office standards by staking money on offices we will be doing so. On Rights of Way we want to we want to spend money on doing a sort of and we also want to reduce the backlog of work up. We want to spend some money on employ Enforcement Officer to stop happening again which is going to be so costly to this Council. Er how many other Water Boards are there. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] I'll show you the standards light of recent legislation. We are seeking to increase public transport. In some ways information town centre management scheme but clearly we are seeking to boost that's the jewel in the crown. This will meet and let's put it into context thousand pounds per district but Mr will put the money into production obviously and I think there's something talk about traffic economy road balance. I mean information is right to reduce the tax some. I mean we have heard this morning the petition. We have a lot of petitions from members of the public. This will go some way traffic. On a service [cough]. one hundred and twenty thousand in the last two years and what we're doing is putting some money into some sta stabilise the service. pounds but we are prepared to reduce spending by three hundred thousand pounds and what we seek is to enjoy problems. We agreed to a spending on capital statement, we do agree to spending six hundred thousand pounds for the much needed paper and look at the council rate monies spent later this year. why I wonder you say to be or not to be, [clapping] [clapping]. That is the question [clapping]. Well known this group set budget priorities and. . . [speaker004:] Does anyone wish to speak. [speaker001:] [cough] Er Mr Hudson. Chairman can I set set. now. [speaker004:] Does anyone wish to speak interest. [speaker001:] [cough] Er Mr Hudson. Chairman I'll get the ball rolling I suppose erm I have to deal with the ludicrous sh statement from County Council now the savings, proposed savings on the fire cover review. What is actually suggested is that instead of not taking twenty eight fire fighters out in St Albans, we do, having replaced that saving of twenty eight fire fighters with ten others. Absolutely farcical suggestion. Chief Officer. The Environment Committee I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. The Environment Committee that I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. The Environment Committee had it's last last meeting by a majority vote, made a decision that the proposed reductions in service for the Fire Service sh er er should not be gone ahead with and that and that issues... around the should be looked at again at the. middle of various further further further er further er discussions and the outcome will be reported to the next member of erm er the next meeting of the Environment Sub Committee. Er at the moment there are no savings identified and it seems to me that this Committee needs to deal with the budget as it finds. It currently has a service within the Fire Service wh which costs a certain amount and we can't presume and I would, I suspect that Councillor is is actually trying to do is to get in by the back door for cut that we will then be forced to to make the March March March Committee well I hope that members of this at this this this Committee would reject that er suggestion as it at the last meeting. But what's more serious is that one of the phrases that he used was more people are going to suffer in cover. Now that to me is a grossly irresponsible statement to make and it is total rubbish. The position that was presented by myself and my colleagues at the last er er er at the last last er last meeting was to indicate a higher level of fire cover within the Service that Councillor wanted and the Committees supported the view that we should have a higher level subject to further discussions of the fire of the fire. It's agreed that we should be looking at improving the standard in D risk areas etc etc etc etc but we should have a higher level of cover, not putting anybody into a suffering situation, quite the reverse that we would have an improved level of of cover within the County and the Chief Officer he's said this time and time again. The Chief Officer said quite clearly last er last time that the decisions were decisions for members and members came up with a view last time that we should not remove that whole time crew from St Albans which was the one firm decision that was made at the last meeting and what Councillor is now suggesting that we should take out those twenty eight whole time fire fighters and then try and give us ten back if we're lucky. It seems, it it it seems that to me that that's quite outrageous. If I if I if I could just er er er just move on on to a couple of other other other points i in in what's been said. Clearly the traffic calming proposals for the Liberal Democrats is a very high figure by comparison to the others but there are traffic calming elements in the other item [cough]. that have been proposed in our own er proposals. In particular the issue of er... can't find it now but the one on highways er... where er er where where it where it quite rightly mentions the concern of the public about payments. Structural maintenance er yes erm yes down the bottom I was looking down erm and and... we are proposing a significantly lower er cut on both the the officers and proposal there that the other er er that the other er er that the other parties. That goes to all of us er er er and our safety at various calming er measures. Er but calming is not the only issue er er calming is is important and we recognise that but it seems to me that with that you have to enhance reliable public transport. We have to see more people being encouraged to use the buses and not their own cars. If you simply put up but people still have to use their cars to get from A to B you're not actually improving the environment at all and it seems that adding added habits habits habits er it it seems to me that proposals that we have represented and which create improvement in a number of areas or reduce the cut in a number of areas will actually produce a much more balanced programme for nineteen ninety four ninety five. I would like to support obviously the motion that was a and it was moved. [speaker004:] Mr I know what is deficient. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman you will only agree concentrate on this business over traffic calming. Er my reservations about the figures the Liberal Democrats put in, I think they will however, I think it is erm, the idea, I do get the idea that money is being thrown at the problem. The traffic calming measures, a lot of them take place in my constituency. Some success, some are an absolute waste of. We have to look into the effectiveness of the. for example [cough] what sort of things that have been done. In one there which does serve pupils taking er the largest school in the county, there were fourteen accidents the year before road cuts were introduced, in the year since they have been introduced there have been none. However, the we have recently had to incur extra expenditure because the road that were put in looking at one hundred er er were found to be too high especially for the services and er place er committee which er throughout that it was very difficult but apparatus you know moving fire. These have now been reduced but they should be put in the first place. There is another example when er er safety bars be put outside the school entrance er cast iron ones so obviously that would stop any entrance on to the pavement school. Unfortunately the position makes them ideal for the kid to cut over and leap frog over, especially straight into the oncoming traffic and the er bearers. There are also a number of traffic put into er slow down traffic, being seen in many cases to be used as a target practice for people coming out of the pub on Saturday night. Er a number of and there's a further example which I have written to the County Senior Safety Officer about er where there is a halt pedestrians coming on to a main road where a number of vehicles er bounce the pavements to get round traffic turning right at the junction. I was told there used to be a safety barrier there but it kept being knocked down so it wasn't of putting er safety barriers up there bollards. No I think you need to look into how we are spending the money on traffic calming. Don't put this amount in yet, take balance our budget which looks upon things like passenger transport. A good way of traffic calming is to get more people to use public transport. Erm let's no don't don't worry about the pot holes cut in structure licence budget. A cyclist going over a pot hole is a very dangerous situation and this should be looked into. So I would ask all to consider looking in depth at at at the traffic being taken. Of course you want to see increased road safety, we're all concerned about it as residents and parents but just throw in one million pounds at it without knowing the effectiveness of it, I think is irresponsible at this stage. The only other point I make is reply to Charles I have some sympathy to him Charles in trying to defend the er the indefensible. probably got Tottenham Hotspur supporter, I think put. . Erm but I get situations quite because the dire situation. I'm surprised you didn't trade unions to the dire situation. Er you know Paul. to be the single parents single parents yes. [clapping]. no causes the admitting things like losing fifty billion quid on fluttering on foreign exchanges er Mr did or flittering away the north sea oil revenue in tax cuts for higher earners rather than er keeping that er once in a life time er bonus that this country had for the north sea oil and also you could mention the increased pension for but it didn't match billions that have been wasted on defence expenditure especially defence expenditure and especially the trident programme. These points should be should be looked into but as I say I take my hat off to infer at least having been loyalty to defend the inquest. [speaker004:] Next question er Mr. [speaker003:] have the pleasure Mr Chairman, I too would like to erm home in on the subject of traffic calming as identified by the previous speakers and er I start with viewpoint that the Liberal Democrat case has been put in which is [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] designed to attract a maximum profit without really thinking it through so in this way I do quite a strong Martin said in the previous two speeches. To simply say to the public we are going to spend a million pound on traffic calming is downright irresponsible and this. It is true that there is an increasingly which we see it erm as in this Council form petitions to the Council more members. There is a rapidly growing department of increased traffic calming. It often if not always involves children and schools and we've only to list the petitions that come in here to realise that. I would like to say that we should be concentrating on traffic management schemes which included traffic calming and take this I'd like to give you a few examples. I took the trouble in my own district to look into the subject because I could see the way the demand for less services. The pressure is immense, from the County Council the current budget, I believe, is four hundred and twenty thousand for these [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] and all of the groups incidentally I suggest increased. My group is suggesting they increase by five hundred thousand which is over a hundred per cent increase and I su I support this. I would also like to... draw to your attention the which is not related to accident prevention and therefore within the existing criteria does not qualify for County Council support,... generally speaking. There is erm, I think you will find the district is very strong in support and for assisting and financing the schemes. They are a community in very strongly there is a risk through speaking. I believe that support this and I've already seen in my own district to traffic calming which never previously existed. A willingness members to use district plans to back up county plans and in some cases to actually fund county wants to approve them. According to this the current demands for traffic calming alone in the council could have could amount to between five and ten million pounds. I base that simply on what I know my own district County Council's current budget. I suggest to you Mr Chairman that this subject has crept up on [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] in the last two or three years and er it is in danger of overwhelming us. There is such strong [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker003:] demands and I think we really have to address this. I believe we should not only be looking at simple traffic calming, I believe we should be looking at er greater use of subsidised school transport and in fact transport called for a report and I gather going on right out. We hope to receive that too. I believe we should cooperate and I believe with integrated traffic management schemes, we can address this problem. Therefore, I would see from a public point of view a substantial expenditure on this subject and I don't think necessarily a level cuts from county planners. Thank you. [speaker004:] Mr no problem Mr [speaker009:] Yes Chairman I'd I'd. [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker009:] I think that er we are probably some years of and therefore whilst we make indulge our service in the next few moments it each other er we are eventually and then perhaps going through a convenient route er and thrashing out some sort of profit margin. However, erm... I would like to just add a few comments er I I found it very interesting in that er I would like to chastise the liberal democrats for throwing money problems, you know er in Yorkshire, my grandfather came from Yorkshire they have a saying you know that labour so there there any other party. Erm reference was made er, however, by Chris er and by Martin er [speaker001:] . Chairman can I raise a point again, erm second time. [speaker009:] Chairman I have to but I moved conservative resolution and I am now the debate problem. [speaker001:] [clapping]. [speaker009:] group to er the fire. [speaker004:] Can we absolutely be sure that the whole purpose of the fire fighters review panel looking at fire cover throughout the county of Hertfordshire to see how long the various traffic changes er and changes to er er road structure and various other. [speaker009:] county and see whether the family wish currently if it would not benefit from er er being carried er in certain areas and I do apologise for the Chief Fire Officer if throw away to Martin er in any way being thought of as no regrets I am sure. What I was trying to say that the for the fire fighter decision about was very boo'd upon to the professional advice of our Chief Fire Officers and they have a good for eighteen months of how we are doing this fire fighting in Hertfordshire. As things have changed round here, things are changing present time er which has so much, however, and there are other areas er just report will be reconsidered er and the right sort of er er area of cover er that we would wish to see and just cutting services, we're talking about improving resources from an area which is clear to areas where there is no further issue, or etc., etc., there is not adequate cover. Er it's it was marked, I think, from the early discussion Chairman that er Watford, er would end up as a new fire station. St Albans would end up fire station. Er and between the Liberal er Liberal Democrats Labour if you support our proposal we'll support yours, will end up as a temporary fire station and. That's what we got out of Chairman and is that nine hundred thousand pounds of by simply modifying er the fire do will have provided that substantial sum of money completely reorganise review of the fire service er it would have er brought this other ten fire, whole time fire fighters etc., etc., and these savings because of the of those two groups over there we have to identify it's stage, put them on the table and then be very prudent in the way this is really the. Er er really to to precipitate on traffic calming really it's going over the authorities, over. [speaker001:] rights of erm fire so many people in front of me at the moment I. Er I was told by my colleague. Erm reply to er most, because that's the second time. I think we all today. Here, here, here. I must bring your attention to Standing Order C A matter in hand. Well the point Chairman is that Mr moves the Conservative he's now been allowed to er speak again. Er I was aware that the so I am taking that summing up speech. referring to Council treadmills and not the actual committee.. what we just. we just move this argument be here all day. [clapping] [clapping]. that he's a member of the er Committee bench, he should be allowed to. [speaker004:] Well I'm, I'm the Chairman carry on so to carry on. [speaker002:] I just called on announce what in this case so I know what Mr said first time round. We with erm about savings his side is made in public transport. Erm I great exception to that because the savings on his side may be public transport has been at the expense of the workers in public transport and the people who use public transport. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] I am very much, very greatly concerned by the traditions in bus garages and to the facts that er workers are out of work being their position at work be very considerably worse off. Also I am not happy about the state of maintenance on vehicles. Er also feel that the people the companies are not making services actually got because they were against these making go out in the evenings because the last bus leaves the town centre at six thirty. Erm you know they're not interested in services that actually meet with these of people, like people that want the buses and I really take great exception to on the on spending less money on public transport er not but also work place . [speaker001:] . take it Mr Chairman. [speaker004:] Firstly, I want to congratulate the. They put in eighty thousand into their proposals that deal with the planning we have hole on my pouch, well done, but on the other hand you are not prepared to spend twenty five thousand on an important obstacle plan to stop this sort of mess er er arising. Brian told us that he was going to deal with those matters he didn't, he didn't build, he left out planning enforcement twenty five thousand and with the countryside thirty thousand. Surprise, surprise, relatively small sums of money which will help an overall problem particularly with minerals enforcement. for minerals enforcement, we have a a habit of my patch and up until now the minerals companies have run rings round our officers because we haven't got sufficient staff in our department.... Mr Chairman, Martin forescored on Charles suggestions that we may be able to finance savings in the fire salary recovery review. That fire cover review is not yet completed. This Committee has rejected quite a large proportion of the officers proposed statements. I'm very sorry about that because I believe that that money could be better spent within the fire service on other matters to provide a much better service to the general public. Don't alter that, that's been rejected but still on the table Mart Martin failed to mention our certain issues. I won't go into them today if I did possible savings. I did confirm that with with Steve our Legal Officer but there is still a proposed saving on the table of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Now is it not they'll ask you, reasonable to recycle some of those savings and surely regain the into the provision of those ten fire officers that the service so badly needs for a number of years now the Fire Inspector's report has identified the confidence levels as we in our service. I believe that that the savings can be made within the Fire Service to do just that. I wanted to go on just to say, to address one other subject and that's traffic calming, traffic calming is a very important aspect in our rural areas and indeed in our towns. There is tremendous demand for both parish council, both tran county councils for traffic calming in their villages. They want to see vehicles going slower through the towns, quite right, we put in half a million extra for this but I'm disappoint with Labour's negative attitude. Only three hundred thousand. Mr goes on to say what is wrong with what's been done so far. Totally negative approach, of course if you start to do a programme which we haven't been involved in some mistakes will be made but we should be positive and look forward to see how we can avoid the mistake we've been making in the future. Not be critical and unpleasant about everything that's been done in the way of traffic calming. I think Mr Chairman that the r the budget that has been put to all by this side of the house should be supported and I sincerely hope that er we will get support from others in this Council Chamber. Thank you Mr we will now go on to. [speaker001:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I merely hope that I will not be a Charles talking about the fire cover again for today and er perhaps in future times for the simple reason that it is one thing to make a budget, it is one thing to do a. It is one thing to draw money from the public in terms of council tax and it's another thing to spend it in the way you intend to do it. And it's quite obvious Charles [cough]. win the election in May. [cough]. The form that came to the officers was a Conservative instruction that you were to produce a fire cover showing their fire cover idea and procedures saving money and that was the one which was thrown out. We are going about it the proper way and er nevertheless it will be assessed and costed at the end. Now in the same way over the four years when you are in overall control of the Council you suggested that Conservative money, the of council tax to pay for public transport but you never spent all the money on public transport, instead of which you on as you admitted which will be used in other directions but your last budget

[speaker001:] commitments in a recent task. . Rights of way are an important part of our heritage the road network should not be allowed to degenerate further. All is a Labour activity by all people do things cost, unless of course special clothing and then awfully difficult and making it people's education and general health. We feel it's very important that our rights of way network should be maintained and improved where possible which is why we are proposing an issue thank you. [speaker002:] I'd like. [speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman I would agree that there was two or three on the question of. We will outside the erm the supporting it if it wasn't for the fact that we understand that the officers would have a great deal of difficulty spending that money. Erm these are not schemes which you can cut out with an A B or a C solution. Every one is different, everyone has its own pattern of possible rat runs and they take a great deal of er er [cough] hesitation, a great deal of divided effort as near as life as possible in the first instance. Erm to prevent that in fact erm we understand these people a great so er that is one of the reasons why we. The second reason just if I could point erm we only learnt this morning of the landscape design erm where we understood that savings were being made by the four members of staff organisation. We understand that because of lack of work they will now only give two of those records and what people are saying and obviously really good. Finally, cutback period erm especially the fire so trouble erm er gladly we'd like to apologise for his momentarily outburst because of [cough]. you never er not in fact the Committee, we do in the eyes of when majority [LAUGHTER]. and that's what we're talking about because the reason why that wonderful piece of work didn't go through priority to set up. Now if we go back to two years ago on the question of whether or not we should accept erm almost don't think you'll get any reply the professional advice of an officer, two years ago or so we had the professional advice of an officer, we were looking at yearly report of the er... inspector and [cough]. strong of er the er a number of firemen of the first er out. And what was the action of the majority party then, over and it was to receive the report. [speaker003:] That's what it was. We might have said no but that's what it was because of pressure put on this side [speaker001:] [cough]. erm erm concentration put on of where pumping into us, there came back a further report on how one would win that and as I remember it, the professional advise was we should have twenty but Charles and his I nearly said men but progress erm. They suggested ten. Now I think if you look back on this report famous report that didn't through. That started because I think Charles saw that they were eventually going had to give way to twenty additional fire fighters and they were looking for safety within the service. Now if you're a majority party you can instruct officers to come up with a specially paid reduction pol you pay for the policy, so you can then structure the system or look at the service and come up with a reduction, come up with an expansion [cough]. or come up with a whole so whole position. They need to know that they can give you your professional, their professional attention they will not make it compulsively, the majority party of what went wrong this is you were no longer the majority party. [speaker003:] Chairman, I have followed your information and can I direct er Councillor to item three point four on item four today whereas if we see that asks that the full year effect of those er financial fire fighters are concerned, we wanted to an additional ten and that was the position that. ten and if you can discuss the fire ten later on. That's what the Inspector says we should do. [speaker001:] Council asking Mrs and Mr erm arrangements save you then making no comment and going back.... Sorry Yeah. Mr. I think you are asking him to worry about. Erm thank you gentlemen, we were asked by Mr of the Conservative budget that if the budget of er cuts and that really considering. If that money in that it does come into the policy and the guideline here and I erm he accused us of putting out er press releases talk about council tax and this may be popular with. Well I strange erm accusation yes we will be, we would keep the council tax down if I am that that would be a popular message to give out and so having accepted our below er the guideline figures they did take this into consideration but we have a budget that has elements of growth in industry. It does er include a past policy and the Planning Department includes two hundred and forty thousand for erm various statutory fire which seem so any fire growth over and above our list are based on the judgement panel that we are. That was [cough]. ever important [cough]. and our growth is offset by savings and they are not budget, they are not cuts in services, they are savings which of efficiency, erm they would would should and would happen erm in any case. The particular ones, substantial one is erm down two major schemes. Er this will not cut in any budget erm as as can be seen from our sheet. I'd like to erm two constant er budget, we feel that reinstatement of the capital design staff salaries is important if not because. Design work cannot be turned on and off er it is er feel flowing continuous process and we must be particularly must be er as well as practical work in the future. I hardly dare mention traffic calming but it does seem to be the flavour of of the month at the moment but to see that the existing work doubled by and I know it's going to cost the county erm this but if you don't want to talk about the children and their crime it is er traffic calming it certainly is a and I do believe I think what we've all to pay for this erm that we will perhaps it will have to come from somewhere and again of the Council Planning Department as we we do erm continue. We are multiplication work and there isn't should be tackled and we were very that we cannot do this without and therefore we accept the grant grant fifty thousand in these four counties planning service which I would say servicing. erm District Council to erm support the er service and we will come back into the thirty thousand council. So we are putting towards will happen anyway does and I. [speaker002:] Now Mr. [speaker004:] I'd like to say this is not going to be a very anyway. Have another fire service erm we have the Labour mix and budgets. We want back to basics. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] this year I'll quickly run through one or two of the er various aspects of er Mr commented on money being thrown at the problem. I think produce need to increase cash across the whole of the County very very. [speaker001:] point of order, the point that I made make it on this side is that we are not against the expenditure. Richard made a very and I wish he had the confidence about our proposals. Here, here. Robert said that we to spend money said the opposite so doubtful Oh they'll spend the money don't worry. [LAUGHTER]. budget our priority for our manifesto. That spend a proper sum of money on we spent a lot more but we don't District Councils hundred thousand each. That about thirty traffic if that be proposed use the money for, we do not. We will also provide money for public transport [cough] start the way. We would hope to make large contributions each years and we would hope deliberate non standing this year for an increase year's. We are able to achieve all of this and priorities in other areas such as the nursery education. And yet we are not which Conservative because at the end of the day you will be an S S A which is expenditure or ie. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr if you wish to speak. [speaker004:] Chairman. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker003:] I think that all that can be said, has been said Chairman and I think that prudence is the leadership today.. [speaker002:] Mr [Tony:] Just to say a few words fire as usual he didn't actually those those to erm. The Conservatives are inconsistent, I mean that when they wrote the policy, when they were looking at the guidelines this erm I can't remember off hand what it was on page fifty. Erm the Conservative thirty three million and the Policy Committee is that Labour was actually sort of lowest. Erm in terms of Community budget so this Environment Committee and Conservatives gone down to below sort of seventy two million so we are not actually getting any sort of. [speaker001:] Conservative actually being down to the traffic calming. [Tony:] I know it varies, erm we are rather identical we are actually very close together and erm hope that with the erm C C County what Labour's put forward to the basic budget er. [speaker001:] it do. It is the sort of sensible budget. [Tony:] but in it's balance erm mix and match. But it is traffic calming, passenger transport, town sentiments. I mean I can tell you. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] provide something on doing erm etc., and we call it we call it but what it is actually doing, it has halved the traffic, that's what its about, giving us the back pedestrian, back but the traffic still come through. is that traffic calming or is it town centre enhancement because it happens to be in the middle of the towns. There are connections passenger transport is one way of calming a number of cars that you've got erm on on our roads. Now I suggest Chairman that there are number of on your paper which probably the Committee could really of this stage I think the sort of important ones. Labour is what the Policy Committee wants. It was asked for and arranged to be put erm forward. Erm if the Liberals wants they want to stop seventy two point six er million but they seem to do rather than go to seventy three point three which is what they want to reach, what they want to look at originally. Er for the Policy Committee erm Committee. If you want to stop at seventy three point six million erm pounds we're quite happy to erm and I suggest Chairman if if we don't get the the main er growth savings through at the next few minutes of voting that perhaps a rather longer lunch erm maybe there would be some. [speaker002:] Thanks for your. Everyone's agreed certain amount of er common er take resolutions numbers one, three, four, five, seven and eight.. Take resolutions numbers number, one, three, four, five, seven and eight. Those in favour. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] . for a vote on papers item number two, resolution three. Those in favour. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Those against.... I move on to Labour motion one six. Those in favour.... Those against... [speaker001:] fourteen. [speaker002:] Erm move on to Conservative motion number two. Paper one all those in favour. [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker002:] Those against. [speaker001:] one, four five, sixteen. [speaker002:] number six. All those in favour. [speaker001:] six. [speaker002:] Those against.... [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker002:] Thank you. We now move on to Liberal Democrat motion number two. Those in favour. [speaker001:] Two, three, four, five, six, seven. [speaker002:] Those against.... [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five. [speaker002:] One. Twenty the fact to resolution number six. Those in favour. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Those against. [speaker001:] [cough]. Excuse me Mr Chairman motion the erm. I was Mr Chairman as all the budget process have been perhaps so perhaps some budget Direct Committee when in fact. to to take on item number five. Thank you. [speaker002:] Before going to item five, can I just ask items. General item two straight after number five back to the budget which allow us a couple of petitioners who have been so far. [speaker001:] yes. [speaker002:] We will therefore planning to present the petition.... [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman erm take this opportunity to the Committee to sub Committee erm back early erm year three. [speaker002:] What we are asking [speaker001:] Eventually when all of the information is gathered in, we're asking you to quite simply reject this. The vast majority of the organisations all of the Civic organisation in the area are strongly opposed to it. vast majority of the population five mile radius of the proposed site are against it. Your County Chairman has received your personal letters rejecting this planning application o of a maximum two point six represents fifteen thousand residents object to it. Planning has had some two and a half thousand letters of objection to it. Members of the Detailed Planning has objected to it grounds. nineteen thousand three hundred people have objected to it on petition. Nobody seriously wants this installation. This is an installation that this County is not required to have one waste from four Counties. Initially, I would stress initially the reference side of has to be ten per cent of the the authorisation the best thing since sliced bread. showing you the reality ten per cent the rest comes from all over the country. You will see photographs behind you showing medical waste international lorries going into which is a whole year's circle. Bringing stuff into the. Residents not prepared to tolerate. We are facing initially something like a hundred and twenty tons of acid gasses from this plant. The local whole year. The current Royal Commission report indicates that this type of er, this likely to be on average twenty times the current legal limits within a year to two years we will be looking at receiving it which is ten times plant producing two hundred fold the legal limits dialysis. We in a world complementary medical evidence showing it does state in effect that the have our local populations. Even in this country where advances be in minimal amounts of impurities that can go through simply not the population prepared to allow this to happen to us. Surely in this day and age the all we hear governments consultation documents, even your own consultation documents has been put out to the er future towning plans. People must be allowed say in the development of their own environment. This is what we are here for, it's what your Council is here for. Your care and our representatives to look after the interests of the population within your area. Not blue circle, we have to have allegiance to them. H M I P which your officers show er or hold up to advise you technically, never get turned down on authorisations submitted to them. Er the Daily Telegraph recently made this item clear. We are asking you for your protection, everything is well documented and clear. Devastating environmental public house er disaster for the population. When you consider the full planning application, please turn it down. I would take the opportunity to present a petition to the County Council containing over six thousand signatures strongly object to this development and asking you to use all of your powers to protect this.... Chairman er first of all erm local is not erm having said that my straight run at the moment, erm future the decision of the erm Council Golfing Application. Yes er er made an important point, er the application is not in front of the Committee most important that will be says anything that would prejudge consideration of that application. When it comes to really assist those who er of the so I I would be grateful if members would remember that this item is on the agenda because first of all petition received and secondly because there is no explanation in that not the time to discuss whether this application should be.... Given the constraints of the Chairman a question. Chairman on a point of order. [LAUGHTER]. . Erm can we just refer to the general item paper as you will see they are not set out to be resolutions will committee er by the County Councils er paragraphs three one to three three set out the latest position on the planning application. Erm essentially we we are sticking sticking to more information about environmental environmental issues expect er er within the ne next few months. Therefore we will get a statement to reporting to the sub Committee on this particular application until probably. Er section four sets out the background of public concern to the amount of and the number of of er latest objection which we have received. As the petitioner pointed out [cough] two and a half thousand erm letters of objection. Erm just to refer you to the last sentence, paragraph four three, er to to assure members of the Committee that those er representation whether the erm application. Section four four onwards talks about erm the affecting the environmental and makes a point that will be we as officers have been with people on this and that is quite unusual er at this stage of the process. Erm we have also asked for information from er the Action Committee and if necessary erm satisfy the used, we will commission because we value our four. And turning finally to Section four background to the first half of this motion er relating to consultations. certainly prior to the nineteen ninety two legislation erm in relation to what was er the was er required application but as you see since nineteen ninety two legislation, that petition was changed erm and in terms of the resolutions, we suggest that recognise the people concerned Hertfordshire and that they are taking into account the applications erm that we continue to work basically with H M I pollution aspects and that we respond to the Department of the Environment er expressing our concerns er er erm way in which er consultation has changed and in fact us.... [speaker002:] call Mr. [speaker006:] Er,th thank you Chairman erm I not aware of the very great public concern erm in the neighbourhood members Committee of the Council of our main endeavours in relation er to the which I believe has now been received. Well I'm a little bit concerned, however, that er the letters I had er reflect a rather exaggerated view about we will say yeah or nay or may. Er to to an application with nature a and I I wondered if the, if this gentleman regular planning er could describe how exactly the responsibility for all this application er which splits down between ourselves er inspector of pollution and indeed the Secretary of State. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker007:] Mr Chairman er Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Frank. [speaker006:] Erm as far as er premises concerned that will be the responsibility of H M I. Er premises of this size er this er erm integrated bridges control research and my opinion County Council relation society. In terms of the planning petition erm as you know this er application has been referred to the Secretary of State and he has informed us that he wants us to carry through erm and consider a consideration of this and make a a recommendation er of it. At that stage he will either indicate that he wishes to application in the local term action before he will authorise the County Council to take the decision on it. Erm if we having considered all the information, both on the planning side and on the pollution side have been agreed er with the application. We have proved if er having considered all the erm information if we are not happy with it we can produce. If we refuse it of course it will be our acceptance to the to submit an appeal which would then er ought to be by Secretary of State. Er it it take a view on that er appeal he will take into account the er development plan forces which were in force at the time. And at at the moment of those who are ponses in the County Structure Planning and District Planning erm which have no specific proposals relating to er consideration funds. Erm and possibly in terms of emerging waste level which of course is due to be er reported. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. [York:] Yes Mr Chairman, erm I shall move the obvious suggested resolution with amendments which I wish to be circulated in the last. Erm and er I I I I'm planning to accept the Labour amendments and the Conservative addition to them. Er... Er this motion is not an attempt to preempt applications Mr Chairman come before us that's Mr said time is indicating for the first time that er September might possibly be months. Er I was very conscious that we must be careful, say do nothing and certainly to accept no resolution which might even appear we don't have a on planning application and this is. Erm from the content of the post bags in the past three months members of this Committee are well aware of the anxieties of the people but the circle, building waste incinerator on the golden edge first of the City. The volume of the testing matters which have received my. Erm the variety of the words which protestors have to stress their anxieties, erm have shown er this is not an orchestrated campaign, although it is er very well organised. Most people have been worried that this incinerator would be too close to the school in which their children are taught. Their homes, shops, their community centre and centres and to the place in which they work. Protests have come not only from all over the but themselves considerable numbers and from further afield, I think Wolverhampton was my. I have been impressed by the variety of the protesting letters, almost without exception. People have written sincere, angry and occasionally abusive letters. Erm I take all the motions, first to try to assure these people that we shall, we are that will be taken and I hope that that er has been achieved. Erm and also because I saw no early prospect of the application coming reports. Erm I turn to the last paragraph motion Mr Chairman. When an application is enforced Community is proposed then positive measures should be taken to advise residents of the proposals. That raises matters principle because under the present law it is a public very large vehicle which has to be alert. I hope that the last part in my motion now translated it was suggesting a resolution by officers with the amendments regards was further Department of the Environment who actually prevent such a situation. Erm and our our next resolution in motion with the. Thank you Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Is your resolution formally accepted? [speaker001:] That's formally accepted. [speaker002:] Mr. [Tony:] Chairman erm I'd start erm by for the Labour Group motion committee like people also who erm have actually sort of written to us letters repeat what they said but the vast vast majority that erm have expressed the genuine concerns of the people who have left work. Er a pity too and er also the villages erm in the in the area erm which I know very well and my and the Letchworth er [clears throat] Letchworth itself. Erm I only want to say it is very important that we must do nothing to sort of prejudice the outcome of the consideration of the planning application environment cases [cough] sub committee, erm at a later erm stage. Erm this week the three routes fully abrupt committee have in fact sent a letter in their joint names to the press in North Hertfordshire er trying to say erm what the position is at the moment. Er say that the application has not yet been considered. Erm that it it it will be erm that by law the County Council must consider any planning application which is made erm to it for a particular site. We don't use sites, we don't make planning applications, applicants do but we have to consider that we can't say we don't like it, go elsewhere. We do have to consider it. We are also not allowed to take into account records of. We have to look at the application er on its merits in the particular erm circumstances and I'll tell you something which we will certainly [cough] have to do erm and I I will say, I will say this in sort of due respect erm, because we are grateful to them that we can see. Er I to the campaign which is taking place. Erm perhaps also say how urgent a lot of people but perhaps there ought to be sort of changes in planning law er changes indeed which erm this Council has sent messages to government about erm er previously. Erm Chairman just amends the er motions put forward by essential to accept. I in number one we did want to replace the word by erm reassures them [cough] because we that just for the strength of this. Erm we are reassuring everyone who has written to us in the that all of the will be taking it fully into consideration when the money application is is considered. In relation to erm the second erm erm motion erm we did want to add at the end [cough] that Her Majesty's Inspector of Pollution incessantly environment [speaker001:] [cough]. [Tony:] erm etc. Not only having gone to higher standards of were but also looking to account a motion which has already been passed by the Environment Committee on the fourteenth of September nineteen ninety three and what I was basically saying was that erm incinerator [cough] should come to That's Life that the current E E C proposals on erm that that and I know that's not a rule but in fact when Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution is actually considering this want to draw their attention to a motion which in some cases were saying that we would expect the highest possible standards if those developments were to go ahead with the. So if we we just want to make that erm clear erm number three er we wouldn't like to add a fourth erm motion and the Labour resolutions it is erm it's actually end of it should be, consideration should be given. There is a reason for this Chairman is that erm I think erm many of us and I am sure we would be deserved by recent articles in the Daily Telegraph er particularly the one that appeared last week which erm referred, I can see in the report, that it referred to a report which is very critical of the work of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of erm Pollution. Er that certainly alarmed me because erm I certainly [speaker001:] [cough]. [Tony:] H M I P erm there which job we were doing. What we thought, all of us it's going to actually this report item which is and I think therefore because we certainly haven't had time [speaker001:] [cough]. [Tony:] discuss this with officers, the same came up over the weekend. Erm that we consideration of be given by independent Technical Advisor on environmental damage. Erm er the costing involves we will just say we ought to be for the first fortnight. We would also consider the resolution. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker003:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman thank you very much for giving me a chance to speak this afternoon. There is just one observation I wish to make to the Committee this afternoon and it actually goes about the whole issue of the planning aspect of what's gone on. There was indeed information given to Labour on this but that application proceeded by the Council and I think some of the officers have omitted that in the last few weeks. It's just one word of warning that we actually strengthen the application received to the future to make sure again.... [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker003:] question alone I don't know whether the officers would want to respond to that last comment first. [speaker001:] is that that the consultation is a problem the legislation which takes away the requirement for several developments to to promote valuable time and be advertised prior to the application so the first most people knew about this application was after this this opportunity prior to that to discuss it with the development before it was submitted. Could I just follow on what Mr was saying earlier when he introduced the he he referred to that er are no references to incinerators in the structural plan. Would this planning application be regarded as a of the. [speaker002:] As far as this Planning Application is concerned. The Planning Policy which applies purely to the and the in case the sub Committee have already er discussed with etc etc for this. As far as the other aspect is concerned, that there is no something that would have to be dealt with on its merits taking account of the arguments for and against. As I said you mention it may be something which is out of our field and we'll have to make sure that the arguments for and against the problems the problem. [speaker001:] O K. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker001:] The question erm we are told that we have got to take into account the actions of er true to me that the er reference site, therefore, we must carry on as er. I think we are looking at the advantages and disadvantages of erm various types of problems that might occur. Really one of the things at the examples of where it's happened in the past. I would expect er I would expect the to actually provide us with the small details of of and not necessarily same. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] That's very kind of you Chairman. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Chairman er case reports to the letter, the joint er er that's on our er under the names of these three departments. I think that's very useful. I think a number of us were becoming very concerned indeed that this was eventually becoming a political area and this this is dealt with in this way [cough]. very very important issue considering most of the issue er the environmental interest. Er that started with show that we are whatever our issue and obviously resolve er a very for the benefit of of. Er I will er be taking up with Oliver the question of report erm since it is a critical report er er like take the place of Oliver to ask the government what their views are er on the performance and the truth is. I think that will be of better use this time er Frankly some of the other things that have been going on weeks. Er I don't think er erm difficulty of er amendments that would be made er in a couple of words here and there er the people very specific at what we are attempting to achieve problem with that. I thought Chairman that er Mr is saying that er they would consider any consult with the Union on some of the statements that have been made and I quite er the item D is in fact necessary that er I I I gave no arguments, it should be given consideration if it is come to that and er it will come back presumably to form a proposition of deal with it then.... Er Brian has already confirmed that er he will support the Conservative resolution which in effect recognises that some of the changes in government regulation over the past er decade has not always turned out for the best er this County in particular order er other asked the Secretary of State to re to relieve some of the pressures that generates in that area and it's for that reason er [cough] to move the resolution er that asks that the consideration be and the reinstatement of the general er er development order which would have the er and earlier for the planning application on the basis of er being mainly on friendly. Thank you erm I think that's all I'm concerned with except to say that I wrote er to a little church spelling what it is today er really into consideration on its this proposition so that we can ensure all of the issues with er our requirements. . [speaker002:] Does anyone wish to any further comments? Right I propose to go through and go through one of our Green. So the first one to start resolution number one. [speaker001:] same time. [speaker002:] Would it be possible to report that as unanimous? [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] I wish now to move on to item two. That's a couple of petitions to be made to.... We were asked petition.... [speaker001:] Mr Chairman residents of there was recommended to, however, if transport which has caused the residents to draw. How many points we consider the transport as inappropriate in and effectiveness. We also because County Council to address and introducing traffic calming measures such as er costings or. and as a result of this petition the public and association. first and I am sure we can afford transport spending school. Thank you for listening to me er petition. [cough]... [speaker002:] Thank you very much. comments approach. Well now we go to Mr. [speaker009:] thank you situation are appointed jointly by the County Council and the County and effectively these consultations and of that er appointment and the following the last Committee we agreed with the er detail and of the and we also agreed that we would not go ahead with the which until we have seen the result of the consultation and therefore there still outstanding as whether we wish to action the not. The report deal deals with a fair detail and concentration and then on page four this the erm main results of the different elements of the result and though grouping them into those had high levels of sport er to those that were where now the officers and a I think that if you could see that er er there was a considerable census for those from the officer part of the. The erm the views coming back from the consultant were obviously er so follow occasions but not dramatically so. So that there will be general consensus whilst they do represent a reasonable view of the people. The erm main issue that are not reinforced that we are trying to determine an overall strategy that will last for the next ten or fifteen years. We are not talking about a a package of measures which we go and try to do tomorrow. It is absolutely clear and I want to make it clear that we may not be doing anything tomorrow or the next day, we'll all be, we'll all be try to understand and determine is how we will deal with the issues in as and if traffic develops over the next ten years or so and that strategy will then form the basis under which we will try to resist city area that we did not see there. That's the key point ought to go across. On the general the City and District Council met er and erm agreed to in fact upon consideration to the joint meeting er a joint Committee. On Tuesday the eighth of February as I understand it that meeting then will report to a Council meeting of the Council, so I would not wish to put forward the suggested resolutions that are on the order paper, er I think I would want to suggest to you ladies and gentlemen for decisions today to whether you wish or not and then I would suggest that the appropriate decision is to await the of the City additional Council and therefore bring this matter forward to our Committee on March the twenty ninth. The only one other point I do want to say is is on. It has become apparent on some of the issues, some of the comments that we made that was if I could call it the you'll know what we're talking about and I don't if we are talking about the there was there was a point somewhere where talked about ing an increase or short of journey time along the ring road and this has been taken as I understand to be that we are setting out an increase of speed er traffic on the sections of road to a junction and that's totally in force and it was either. Well the accident was was that if you look at the junctions along that section of road and carried out qualifications junction, you could release, reduce delays from junctions and effect of your making your total journey in a shorter time making that route slightly more attractive. We would go through a great deal of trouble to ensure that the [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker009:] between junctions did not suffer for be and any proposals that we agreed, you agreed to make fact the existing services. I just thought it was worthwhile making that point as it is made to be very. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker010:] Thank you for [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker010:] Erm only support it. This saga since this recession has been a sorry tale. It was beginning with the disasters on one way systems and then of course a panic decision to do further research into the so called traffic problems of St Albans. The very work of the Consultants in associated with the road construction industry. Nothing particularly wrong with that but that does show where they are coming from when they are looking into being with as I call it the so called traffic problems of St Albans. And then there was a consultation exercise, consultation exercise which will. Relevant groups of Consultant, those in the for some reason are not despite the fact that the abortive scheme. Would it involve belonging to the residents who were Residents Association but was worth that. There were the City questions, you asked if traffic jam. It mostly comes up to you with a clipboard and says "Do you mind sitting in traffic jams, yes or no". [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker010:] What is amazing is that two didn't seem to like that. [speaker001:] . [speaker010:] And then look at the conflicting interest, whereby the Consultants did their own report and didn't research into it. and I think we must recognise that it is only that many of the questions and questionnaire had they been displayed of what they wanted to propose. And then there was the attempt not to issue a questionnaire to every household but to reserve the questionnaires in the Town Hall for four week days Saturdays to will honour the people who didn't actually have Friday who were at home perhaps walk in to the City Centre you might be able to pick one of these up and then there was the problem distrib in distributing the questionnaire because despite of the assurance given to the consultants they were nevertheless distributed amongst the numerous St Albans and believe you me even those likely people who did go to the press do sometimes for every that we having suddenly fully congressed to see whether perhaps there might be a consultation questionnaire lurking within it. And then there was the farcical, farcical final report... I I used to take will be the first to endorse and interpreting those statistics at least in my case course, but I blush what these Consultants have done, let's give you a few examples, sixty five per cent, you see on page three think that changes are necessary, they were asked "do you think changes are necessary to meet the fifteen transportation problems and to be needs? 'Well a little more, in future ask travels for the earliest make changes and deal with the future and again this is remarkable that only sixty five per cent absolutely endorse that but our potentials in the, if you look at the next examples, forty four we are told here were in favour of the strategy and thirty six per cent opposed. That's it, we can majority vote on that sort of basis. Well you will find for instance that three times as many people will strongly oppose and was strongly in favour, something omitted from the report in front of me and there are eight per cent there that were indifferent. to your Council did I knock on the door and say standing for the Liberal Democrats, they said well we're not sure it's the way we are going to vote for you, we may vote for somebody else. I don't put them down as a. I put them down as a 'No', eight per cent couldn't bring themselves to support this strategy, they are 'Nos". Madam if you add thirty six to eight what do you get. You get forty four, forty four in favour, forty four and that doesn't take into account that the Consultants in the overall strategy so Madam would question, is this difficult to get. There's always to say them up will they against more buses and public transportation. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker010:] We are asking questions. Do you believe that sin is bad and that virtue is good. Do you believe the people should be faithful for their wives etc., [speaker001:] etc., [LAUGHTER] Is anybody timing this rigmarole please? [speaker010:] Does anybody care Chairman. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] I am sorry to be concerned, I don't know what he wants to pour something down my throat and this is. [speaker001:] perfectly clear Chairman, if you have. [speaker002:] That is perfectly relevant, we saw what you felt when you were briefed with the reference on the twenty second of December. Unfortunately view, and I'm sorry that we don't have. On page five again this is the persistence, the forty per cent in favour, thirty per cent against. That again is not sixty per cent of those again I would suggest that that part of the report is misleading.... The Consultants at least have to recognise, they couldn't fix that the closure of was strongly opposed but it was a mystery to all of us except obviously Mr on the December how they were unable to nevertheless, to accept a little dissimilar rejection of part of my and the associated increased in the despite the fact that seven different people are of the same several different people same margin Mr but not. did the Consultant have difficulty here I suggest but if one giver of strategy is demolished by public consultation then that's fortunate but in the second demolish then your whole strategy tumbles down. This strategy does not have public support. I if you don't like the sound of it Mrs then I'm sorry for you but this is what democracy is all about and it is about time you listened to what people have to say. Now I'm disappointed to see here before us a motion of group which report saying that he should receive the report. It is perfectly clear to me and fellow Councillors that a report which is so badly and which so badly uses statistics, cannot be received because it is not of sufficient quality for this County Council and support the District Council to use it. I don't therefore, at the earliest possible to reject this whole exercise book and to start a proper consultation strategy of proper transportation strategy for the City of St Albans. Thank you Mr Mr. [speaker003:] I usually to start by saying Chairman, have you followed that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Erm I don't think I have been down to that I think I've sh erm wired the whole damn out of my mind because er it's a long time since I heard such garbage in this chamber, it's fortunate for us Chairman that Mr isn't a member of the Environment Committee because if that's the kind of contribution that he's prepared to make on these occasions we would could well do without it. [speaker001:] Here, here. Here, here. [speaker003:] Chairman the St Albans traffic issue, the erm bus for quite a long period of time but throughout that period of time Chairman the County Council's decision has been absolutely clear. We believe that St Albans er has a traffic problem facing it in recent years, two or three year's ago at the height of activity er the problems facing it were were more obvious and along with that situation er there's no question about that and one might be forgetting to thinking the problem and not the way it hasn't, it will return now, we know it will be return and therefore we should be firm in our resolve and at some point in time in the future that problem must be addressed sensibly for the good of the people of St Albans. It has also been our our position of this County Council Chairman that we will never seek to impose a solution on St Albans, we felt that it's our duty to highlight the problems we to give them our expertise er as part of the leading part of our Authorities Committee in this country. Er and seek good qualified er Consultants to carry out the work which could be deliberated on by the various Committees of the County Council and the District and that work has been done and I think if I saw anything Chairman from the meeting on the twenty second of December at St Albans, it was that form very first time three political parties took up the policy and they started to address particular issues er er er we believe less measures partaken. Over the period of action five to ten years. Now I I I don't think there's any doubt about this Chairman that that particular group bears er comment from us er er part of the er Conservative resolutions made wants to acknowledge the fact that for the first time all parties, members of the parties haven't started to look in detail at these St Albans and many aspect, many aspects of the Consultants' strategy of starting to appeal. There are relevant stair er Chairman which you can look out of place at the present moment of time but they will need to be addressed at some point in time in the future and therefore one could be forgiven for wanting to prioritise various but in general terms, the strategy that has been er looked at is the progress of St Albans in general, there may be small elements of it and some of these have already touched upon but in general that is no sound strategy er which over a period of time and in the process of that it will be essential to monitor erm the effect of some of the changes as you go forward to see in fact whether the other elements of strategy that were erm put in to that er work were in fact still necessary and whether they should be have some. So all in all er the survey approved says [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker003:] in in coming to grips with this issue we have realised how particular they are met er and a number of members will prevent from getting to that meeting to to put their views on the table and for this reason er they decided to defer that. Er the Director of Transportation recognises that, it was said that he's happy to to await the outcome of liberations by that er District Council and that's what the Conservative group has suggested that we do but if he wants you to recognise that every policy has to be accepted, the way in which they have performed time and decided to be addressed by my members of of all parties and therefore I urge you to support the Conservative resolutions I now put forward.... [speaker001:] Thank you for secondly I was that the decision now is left to the the District Council er have you not discuss some parts of elements er could be addressed in the short term. Er I really can't accept that er general questionnaire responded to sixty five per cent twelve per cent of sixty five per cent of you will recognise and agree that changes were needed that are existing now erm and so there must be evidence as and when the erm district erm district erm. So I cannot accept that. [speaker002:] Mr. try and be er er er as positive as I always am but er [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] all well know. However I must start by saying that er the County Council are giving so many people the hundred and twenty nine thousand people who signed contingence. Erm er that problem did seem to be appealing in the shape of a tachograph. Questions of this switched on and some of them how to do. First thing is to make sure that you get an opportunity to discuss it and I agree other people who actually res responded in seem to collect the fee and I am not paid to to collect the fee to try to make it very difficult for people to respond but nevertheless the numbers that we, I think in terms of other areas, other areas, the response that we got it is a bit ironic though to sit here in the afternoon having listened in the morning to a lovely discussion which was agonising three hundred, five hundred thousand for on traffic calming. Er then to er put er against the background as the District Council last last week were being told our budget will cost us er to er accidents and of course what this exercise would cost us, three hundred and fifty thousand is the amount very close that some of you just want to spend on the doing traffic calming over the next year year. So I mean is certainly makes sense on the background and very calmly by er Mr saying very positive so I can't hold my hand up and pick out particular in which they, some of them er never change opposition District Council that their negative response if you like but there were, there were some positive responses but only I have to say this for something like four er proposed paper and one of those in which er lots of in which relevance and er businesses in the area could have er the thing that er response was er this this partic particular phrase would seem to be saying trouble erm er identified. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] and it isn't like that one at all but nevertheless there there is a way to adopt something like four strategy. This is, this is why I find it very sad I mean having gone to erm Meeting for our my apology for this. to get known response long before the County er desider er decide, consider what good will come. That's to start with if you look at the you will find that erm and then you've had that sort of what er local people that is now part and policy. Thank you very much.. [speaker004:] proposing. Now what do I find oh oh dear we now say no great. no to the Railway Group but this particular Council it isn't the type of bits and say no to that. I want to see er the this rubbish dump but this isn't the time to do it and as the Conservatives said, we should wait on er to see what the Council er wants to do and I take that on board. And certainly I would, above all else, above all else, I would like to say to people whose, how comes jeopardised by the group. The areas through are the safe was only built fifteen years ago, right the way through. I'd like to say they relax our agreement, [speaker001:] but apart from that the Government has [speaker004:] is the way the total response of the City and District Council and it's had a chance, this Committee, to look at it and move forward. That's the right approach and I suggest to this Committee that if you take the Liberal Democrat Conservative resolution that will be not a bad. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr I now [Tony:] Er thank you Chairman erm I should say as I live er St Albans and I actually er live. Erm on what they report does is is the ringway. [speaker002:] I don't think it is. [Tony:] No I don't think. Erm and these are the fairly brief er [clears throat] Chairman I think, I am sorry for disappointing Mr because because erm I main properties but erm we are basically I think sort of more or less agreed [clears throat] parties that we actually want this. Er the reason want referring because hasn't commenced it's considered er view and the last thing we want is to be in business actually doing is enclosing on St Albans and anything that St Albans doesn't actually want. I mean I think you all learnt from the one way system and the fiasco erm of that was actually there. Erm on the other hand if it's if anyone who doesn't think that St Albans hasn't got a traffic problem erm well they probably live in a. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Erm but there there are sort of problems erm there. We want to get views of St Albans District Council am I told erm that last Thursday evening in the snow, er Counc St Albans Council came through first er to erm agree it. Er but but but not not right. Er I am sorry this Mr means the tone of his [speaker001:] Here, here. [Tony:] it sounds as if he was launching a little democrat er campaign for for the District Council Elections in May that's what it sounded. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Erm I do think Charles we need some serious approach er er and deal with this problem. It's a very complex actually. There are sort of costs in that respect that that come out of this erm business report er and on the late sides erm we would actually support the motion that's been moved by er Charles and Jane but there is a policy of response and that doesn't mean to say that they will accept all of it but there may be some good elements er er within it but we need to actually refer it. The end of the I wanted to do Chairman apart from well that er we can support erm the third motion. Is I think we probably do need as Mr suggested to move number one suggested resolutions, erm now if the Liberal Democrats won places in and if they'd rather have the work noted proceed to proceed by something sinister. It might take just a decision for St Albans oldest of the country by having changed the word received to. So if we would like further consultation apparently it was noted in view of the test carry out what we could do erm in fact the questionnaires have the response, I do share some of Mr 's er er worries that erm I think we ought to get out of the way and say to number one that this er. [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] Yeah well Mr Chairman I would formally like to motions my when the study one and the problems of this having to despite that the District Council have six and it's much further I again I think specification of erm what we do need despite what we should not need this time, this time later. er er another er er anoth another Committee because I would like to accept the if we could do something then modern conditions. So erm I I I've got them in the back of of what type of strategy you should. I think it would be fair to say we should not, at this moment in time, take any decision on on the matter. [speaker002:] . Taking votes on the first [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker002:] number one to take up the work of the. [speaker001:] Agreed. [speaker002:] take the Conservative resolutions against a to afterwards taking. [speaker001:] .... [speaker002:] Right thank you very much.... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] .. That's it, that is it. [speaker002:] We've waited at St Albans. [speaker001:] what you'd have to do [LAUGHTER]. reception . . [LAUGHTER]. . was for us. . [speaker002:] I would now like to move back to er defer lunch. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] circulate paper from erm a new motion in terms of the environment motions erm defers more than that I don't really say [cough] We had about two hours on on it this morning. Needless to say there has been er [cough]

[speaker002:] erm right I'm new to the area and I'm sort of wanting to move into the Garden City [speaker001:] great take a seat, is it still as cold out there as it looks? [speaker002:] Absolutely freezing out there [speaker001:] Oh yuk oh horrible horrible. Okay so you're looking for a house or [speaker002:] well I'm actually I'd like something cottagey if at all possible but erm I'm quite open minded at the moment erm I'm so new to the area I'm actually in Brookmans Park at the moment [speaker001:] right [speaker002:] but my house is on the market [speaker001:] Okay has that been on there long? [speaker002:] it's been on for about the past month [speaker001:] and what sort of response are you getting on that? [speaker002:] not too bad had a couple of people round in the last week and one seems quite keen [speaker001:] all fairly encouraging then [speaker002:] yeah, you know quite hopeful so what I as I say what I'm really looking for is I've got a preference for older properties but you know try not to pin myself down to too much at the moment, I've got about a hundred and thirty to spend so ideally I'd like a cottage old style but I do need three bedrooms [speaker001:] O K, right [speaker002:] erm ideally would like something in villages [speaker001:] O K [speaker002:] but something on the outskirts of the Garden City might be O K perhaps on the northern side [speaker001:] right O K that's fine [speaker002:] um I've heard the west side's nice [speaker001:] yeah west side is very popular and it tends to be the area where we get the older properties as well so that's encouraging [speaker002:] that would suit me then wouldn't it? [speaker001:] O K, with erm other than the three bedrooms do you have any particular requirements, do you need a garage or anything like that? [speaker002:] A garage would be nice and as we've got two cars so although a garage is vital if we as long as we can get them off the road that would be an advantage [speaker001:] and with regard to the three bedrooms do you actually need three bedrooms or if a a two bedroomed cottage came up with perhaps an extra room downstairs or something would that be okay? [speaker002:] erm yes it should be okay perhaps you know if obviously if one bedroom a box room wouldn't be any good to us but that would be consider that [speaker001:] yep it's just that some of the cottages tend to be a bit smaller so that it might well be that we can get you something where there's a perhaps ground floor extension or whatever okay. Do you need to be or have access to the railway station or to the main roads or anything like that? [speaker002:] It's an advantage but with cars it's not really a problem so... [speaker001:] that's fine okay, smashing. What sort of timescale are you looking at to move, really just waiting to get a buyer on yours or [speaker002:] well yes as soon as things get moving there then we would be ready really so hopefully in the next month or so [speaker001:] Good, okay well let's take some details from you and what I'll do is I'll register your details onto our mailing list so that erm, anything that's coming onto the market you'll get a phone call on straight away to let you know but also I'll then check and see what we've got that might suit your requirements at the moment. So what's the name please? [speaker002:] erm, it's erm [speaker001:] okay and what's your address [speaker002:] erm it's [speaker001:] and the postcode there is? okay is there a home telephone number for you? [speaker002:] erm yes it's erm would be [speaker001:] okay and is there a day-time telephone number a work telephone number? [speaker002:] yes you could probably ring me at work yep that's more convenient so that's [speaker001:] okay any extension on that or do we come straight through to you? [speaker002:] that'll come direct [speaker001:] that's smashing okay. Now you just said you've got your own property to sell and that's on the market at the moment okay, erm have you had any advice on mortgage and what we should be able to obtain on the mortgage side of things? [speaker002:] er yes we have actually but erm [speaker001:] is that from your own building society or [speaker002:] well we were actually going to be going through the Halifax but have you got any other suggestions? [speaker001:] Yes erm, we've actually linked with a firm of independent mortgage brokers erm so rather than being tied to a particular building society as most estate agents are erm what they will do is they'll shop around and tell you which lenders are offering the best terms and particularly good schemes at any one time erm, it's literally free information they simply phone you up and say get some idea of what your salary is and what your requirements are and then they'll send through some information for you. Can I ask our adviser just to give you a free phone call? [speaker002:] Yeah, erm it certainly wouldn't do any harm, erm I'd rather not be rung at work if that's alright [speaker001:] no that's alright we try and keep it confidential so they work evenings they'll contact you, is there [speaker002:] yeah right well you know any time after sort of six, six thirty you should be able to catch me then [speaker001:] okay and is there a particular evening that's best for you? [speaker002:] erm, no most evenings it doesn't really matter no [speaker001:] that's fine, okay, smashing. Right, well as I say I've got your details here so what I'll do is if you bear with me I'll go and a have a look through the drawers and see what we've got available. Okay? [speaker002:] Do you just have the one office or [speaker001:] No, no we've got another office at Knebworth which is a village approximately six miles north of here, what I will also be doing automatically is passing your details through to the office so that as you're looking for character property and village property they'll be particularly appropriate okay, but also to make life easier we actually carry their details here so anything that they've got available I'll be able to give to you now [speaker002:] Oh fine okay then give me a ring if anything new comes in [speaker001:] I'll give you a ring if anything new comes in [speaker002:] Well thanks very much indeed [speaker001:] Thanks [speaker002:] Okay, thank you bye bye

[speaker001:] There is concern about funding for the Children Act and it's too important to start scoring political points, whether there's a General Election or not t and I must admit I was off, I was off ill, off work during the week of the Tory Party Conference. It was actually something that happened before the Tory Party Conference but it didn't, it didn't actually help me recover [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and nearly every day, nearly every speaker actually attacked Local Government in some way. What the Children, what the Children Act does at least recognise in the Conservative Government passing the Children Act is the importance of Local Government. These are very important services and they are placed, just like care in the community will be, when it eventually is put into practice. They will actually responsibility of Local Government and er we've tried to put in here something that even Conservative Councillors could support, even though it's attacking Conservative Ministers, cos they must actually believe in Local Government to actually serve on Local Government, one would think, but er, but th the problems of under-funding are th could be very serious. During the summer we had serious problems, we had a report on children homes which erm which y'know which pointed out a few things y'know that hadn't been doing well, mainly, mainly in defence of erm because they did put in a lot of effort into fostering y'know and the children homes y'know need, as Councillor would y'know will, they did a very good job actually representing at the time. Yet I listen to the television and Virginia Bottomley with th within er hours of the r the news breaking in trying to make political capital out of, threatening to come to to inspect inspected children homes. Clearly that's what worries me about this Government's implementation of the Children Act. I mean our motion you can do with it what you will but like I say we have actually aimed to actually get something which recognises all party support for the Children Act and recognises concern about the funding. Thank you. [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] Councillor [tape breaks here] D d I've put I've not gone too political on this and you're running me down already I don't know. [13 1] There is, as has been said, all party support for the Children Act and it is nice to see the Labour Party agreeing with Conservative legislation, as with the care in the community, asking us to rush our legislation, so it makes a change for us to be united on something. Probably the Act the Act will work as a framework through which our children's futures and their needs will be of paramount importance in all our decision making. One of the key points of the Children Act being that gone are the days of parents' rights. The Children Act clearly replaces this with parents' responsibilities. I think that's one of the things that we're we're all pretty much in agreement on. What about the responsibilities of the Councillors to the children in our care? We all know the grave problems in some of our children's homes but we can't run away with the fact that er they're unique to or the problems don't exist elsewhere because we all know they do. It's nothing new, it's an age old thing. Speaking to one of the workers in one of the children's homes, said do you think that child prostitution in the children's homes is something new because it's on the front of the T and A? I've worked in these homes for fifteen years and it was going on when I first started there. So, it's it's just a problem that's come to the surface that obviously needs addressing. As custodians of the children we've a legal duty to take care of thes of the children that we in our care. One of the major problems for us, whichever Party's in in control, and I think if Councillor had gone to the press after this report was done and, rather than trying to score points and saying it's all because it's lack of Government cash, if he'd appli if he'd said, let's all get together on this, let's try and solve the problem, the problem's been going on indefinitely, let's try and s, he might have gained more credibility. But of course he came out with his usual dry diatribe of er not enough Government cash. The major problem being, if one of our children gets out of hand, one our own children, we've got our own ways of dealing with it. Some parents still give their kids a clip round the ear, some of em send the children to their room or whatever, but when the children are in care you can't do any of these things because if you lock the child in the room, if the child gets sent to the room, you're accused of pindown when there's a report done. You can't physically restrain the children. So the problem is, if your child wants to go, if one of our children wanted to go at midnight, I'm fairly sure that everybody in this Council Chamber would have quite a reasonable way of er of retaining that child in the home but of course we've all heard the stories of what happens when the unruly children in the children's homes want to go out at midnight and I do think we we have a problem because with the report and the new legislation, we're in the situation where there's plenty of advice for us as to what to do, what not to do should I say, we can't we can't use pindown, you can't shut them in a room, you can't physically restrain them, so how does one of the workers in the home stop them from going out? I'm meeting Virginia Bottomley next Monday afternoon at central office and I'll be putting the I will be putting whow I will b I will be putting the very question to her as to we've had a lot of advice as what not to do, how do you chastise the children in the homes? So what of Councillor claim that it's all down to lack of Government cash. I'd rather be constructive about this and meet Virginia Bottomley, put these points to her as an all party thing cos we've all said in Social Services that that is the problem that we're faced with. But what of Councillor claim then about Government cash? It's the children themselves in the homes who'd graffitied the walls, broken up the fabric of the homes. No amount of money would have stopped them, or is that if there was Laura Ashley on the walls they wouldn't bother spraying it? I don't think money will solve any of these problems. Would more Government money in the home stop young girls going out to engage in prostitution? I don't think so. May be Councillor efforts' d be better employed asking his leader to stop wasting public money and direct a bit more into Social Services [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] You talk of the, you talk of er wo should we take it out of this, should we take it out of that, Councillor. received a thirty two point seven million pound increase from the Government compared to last years' i revenue support grant and this doesn't include the additional money given for the Community Charge. But your group sold the children's budget woefully short. You were told at the time you did, and Councillor told you at the time that th it was totally inadequate was the children's budget, so how can you expect more money from the Government when your sense of priorities is so blatantly wrong on the money that you're already handling. I make a plea for Councillor not to use the children as a political football. This matter could have been put forward. We could have tried to address the problem without all this talk of more Government cash, more this, more that, more the other. Let's all get together. The policies are starting to work, as we've already heard from Councillor. We're very far advanced in our Social Services department. The policy of trying to get more foster children is picking up momentum. Let's all work together to promote more fostering, get the children into family environments wherever possible. Thank you Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here] [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Er, I er hope Councillor has got his pen ready because there are one or two things I'd like him to mention to Virginia Bottomley and I wouldn't like him to forget them. But er I'll deal first of all with the Children Act. Whilst most commentators are agreed that the Children Act 1989 is in the main a good Act, all of them, all of them Councillor are critical of the fact that the Government has not properly provided Local Authorities with sufficient resources to implement the Act. The Government deserves no praise for the Act. It was not their idea. It was an idea which sprang from pressure groups and voluntary groups as well as Social Services departments, not to mention the House of Commons All Party Select Committee in 1984. But I want to ask the Tories, I want to ask the Tories, and I want an answer. If the Act is as good as it is claimed in their motion, why hasn't the Government ensured proper funding for it? Of course, of course the opposition won't of course the opposition won't answer that question, but the truth is that it is the usual hallmark of the Tory Government not to fund anything properly. Look around you. Is it not, we can mention this to Virginia Bottomley. It is not only the Children Act which is under-funded but the entire spectrum of Local Government and the National Health Services. The fact remains, and will become more and more evident as the year goes by, that the deliberate under-funding of the Act was an act of incompetence by incompetent ministers. Ministers who should never be allowed to govern this country again, just as the Tories should never be allowed to run again. And while I'm talking Labour running, I notice that the original seconder if this motion was one Councillor, the former arch cash-cutter of Social Services will never be allowed to forget that she cut the Social Services budget by one tenth. Money, incidentally, that we shall never be able to put back. She deformed Social Services and now has the gall to congratulate the Government for this under-funded Act. If it was not for her, this Council would have had more opportunity of addressing some of the deep problems the Tories either created or left behind. Now what if I support in the main the aims of the Act, there are one or two areas I think that some things are not a good idea. I'm concerned about the loss of the access of parental rights panel and the handing over of this work to the Courts and the lawyers. I take this opportunity to thank all the Councillors of both major parties who served on our access parental rights panels. I feel that they did an excellent job [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Putting this putting this work to the Court will not, I fear, help the situation or improve matters for children or their parents. In fact I think that making this a Court issue will deter some parents from seeking access to their children which is a very bad thing. I do not believe that magistrates will be able to show any greater compassion or understanding that our own elected members. In fact, with the involvement of solicitors, I think the whole business will be less personal, with much less informality and genuine understanding. I must also say that I resent the tendency of the Act to line the pockets of lawyers out of the tragic situations of families and children in trouble. If I was a cynical person, which you all know that I am not, I would have said it was the Government's intention to help lawyers make more money out of the Act. However, I shall confine myself to believing that it was an unintentional consequence. Another area of this Act which I disagree with is over the definition of need. I remember in 1990 attending the same conference as Councillors and Councillor, hearing from, the principle civil servant in charge of the Act, that the Government had not defined need and that would emerge through decisions made in Court. In other words, the Government were too frightened by the cost of the Act that they refused to name a price. However, at the same time, the Government wilfully left Local Government to exposure of the law and the high cost of judicial reviews and High Court actions. Only a Tory Government would be so irresponsible and unfeeling. Only ministers who have no understanding of either Local Government or Social Services would shrink from their own responsibilities in this way. It was their duty and their responsibility to protect Local Government but instead they acted like cowards and ran away. Is that the order of the day? Isn't that what we've come to expect from this worn out useless Government, that at the moment of decision making they run away? Didn't they do just the same with the Community Care Act? When the All Party House of Commons Select Committee reported in 1984 and suggested a further review of child care legislation was needed, did the same Select Committee envisage the incompetence of the Government ministers of the day to so irresponsibly deal with their duties? Councillor, time's up please Yes thank you. It's time for a change. It's time we had ministers who will listen to Social Services and in a few months time we shall have them, a Labour Government. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor. Those in favour please show Those against? [whispering] thirty, isn't it? [] That is carried, forty nine votes to thirty. Those in favour of amendment I moved by Councillor please show. [whispering] yes, that's ok. That's gonna be fifty one, isn't it? [] Mhm? [whispering] fifty one? [] Those against? [whispering] thirty [] [whispering] that's carried [] That's carried, fifty one for, thirty against. Those in favour of amendment H stan moved by Councillor please show. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show [whispering] [] Against? [whispering] thirty against [] That's carried, fifty one votes to thirty. At this stage in the proceedings I'm going to adjourn Cou the Council meeting so that you can all have your tea. We shall reassemble at er five minutes to seven. [tape breaks here] We now under er the powers to choose and the right to own Lord Mayor, I'd like to firstly say why I refused to sit and listen to this next debate. I think it's the worse example of pure political self-indulgence that I have ever come across in the eight ye nearly eight years on this Council [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] I think, I regard it as an insult to the people who actually elected us to come to this Cou these Council meetings. I apologise on behalf of Council to the members of the press who are here, and to the Council officers who have to endure this and I am only grateful that there are not members of the public here to witness this total farce. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Now Councillor, you're entirely out of order but er [speaker002:] [shouting] [] [speaker001:] however, I call upon Councillor to move the motion, together with amendment K standing in his name. Lord Mayor Are you going to move, formally move it? I'll move it Shush. Is the is there a seconder? Remarkable. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I call Councill Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name I so move my Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen E, the opposition group has specified this motion as the one to which a minimum debating time of thirty minutes is to be allocated. So we will proceed. Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. As I was saying, if the Labour Group would like to leave the chamber we don't really mind, if they stay out for the voting at the end of this debate which actually contrary contrary to what, contrary to what Councillor er erm what's his name? Councillor said, is extremely important to the people of and we've learnt a lot in politics over the last ten years. One that I look a lot more like the Prime Minister wearing my reading glasses than the Prime Minister actually looks like the Prime Minister and two, the hidden benefits of wearing your reading glasses, group, here, is that I can't see a thing over there and for the first time in ten years I'm gonna enjoy delivering a speech. The power to choose and the right to own. The power of the individual to choose and the power of the individual to own is the central political plank of the Conservative Party and in fact goes back to Disraeli and one nation. If Councillor had actually stayed, he would know why this is so important to the people of whom I may say he has cruelly deserted by walking out of the debating chamber and what he's saying to the people of is that Liberal Councillors A won't prepare speeches like his colleague earlier on or they won't stay in the debate they are not going to be properly represented when we take important decisions, both nationally and locally. The Right to Buy given to all Council tenants opposed by the Labour Party, has allowed one point two million Council homes to be sold to their existing tenants and make them home owners, and home ownership is a central plank of our policy. It is no, it is no coincidence that in a question asked today to the Labour Party, we will find that we a year ago when the Tory's proposals were still being implemented, over eleven hundred people were granted in the right to buy their own Council house. This year, solidly under a Labour controlled Council, only two hundred and fifty people approximately have been allowed to exercise what actually is their legal right. We've had a debate on Local Management of Schools opposed by the Labour Party where we have seen that the right to choose their own children's quality of education and where school governing bodies can direct their cash where they want has been extremely popular. And I don't apologise to the people of that I voted with Councillor to take a hundred administration jobs out of education and direct that money to the provision of education in the schools cos that that is what running the education department is about. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] The city tecnol technological college was given the right, has given the right of education, a quality of education undreamed of by a n by the people who live in the inner cities of, particularly the Asian population of opposed by the Labour Party, a Labour Party committed to scrapping and closing the C T C's and if they can't get [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Oh you my clap, if you can't get your way, what bullies you are. We're not having the C T C playing football against our schools, God, how low can you actually sink? [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] What is wrong, what is wrong with increasing the levels of education in our schools up to the quality and level of education offered by the C T C? And why does the Labour Party in always want to level things down? Under the Conservative Government the green belt in England has doubled in twelve years. If it was up to the Labour Party it'd be halved in two. And we've seen, we've seen the commitment to Local Government, haven't we, on the planning application on the, where two local Councillors, two Labour Councillors, sitting there, listened so much to their electorate that they abstain when it comes up to the vote? They abstain. Now, where's people's commitment to Local Government in circumstances like that? Under the Conservative Government the people in Great Britain, including people, have been given the opportunity of shareholding undreamed of before opposed opposed by the Labour Party. And what does say about that? says that we will keep the level of charges down in the now privately owned companies providing public utilities so there'll be nothing for dividends. I hope he's gonna put that in your manifesto. I hope the eleven million who own shares in those operations know that under a Labour Government there will be no dividends. The Citizens Charter announced by the Conservative Party has been one [LAUGHTER] of the most outs, you may laugh, at least you stayed in Try reading it, try reading it some time because what it says to the people of is, if you don't like the level of services being provided by your Council, if you feel your Council are not giving you value for money, then we're gonna give you the right to complain about it and do something. And that brings us on to the question of money. We've heard tonight, and I do not believe it, a plea from Councillor, the Chairman of Social Services, that he wants ring fencing of Local Government money, I E the Government sends us our money and says, you will spend it on that and that and that and there will be now power of Local Councils to decide what the needs are in their areas and what their priorities are. Now if you want to serve as a Local Councillor, Councillor where you are told by any Government what the priorities of people are, on the services that we deliver, than I want no part of that in Local Government. No more than I want any part in Local Government where Councillors and Officers can spend twenty thousand pounds tripping all over Europe and let's put something straight, the T and A tonight, which we all believe, says Councillor has no right to complain about that cos he went on a jet plane to Brussels. There was nothing in our press release, in fact the contrary, criticising the Labour Party Officers going to Brussels where we've had tremendous support over the last ten years. And if we did spent twelve hundred pounds on an aeroplane and came back with fifty million pounds worth of grants, I'm not apologising for that. I actually don't think I actually don't think that the Community Charge payers of should pay for Councillor to go and watch a circus in Denmark. If he wants to watch a circus, he can attend the Labour Group [shouting] Labour Group meetings every month [], the Labour Group meetings every month. We don't think we don't think that the citizens of are doing cartwheels at sixty four thousand pound being spent on a benefit bus to tour round this district and certainly if the festival organisers two years ago could commit themselves to breaking even within two years and were happy with that, why have we spent two hundred and forty thousand pound on a festival in when that money, and that's four hundred thousand pounds worth of money, could have been spent on the salaries and training of our officers who work in children's homes. No, we didn't sack anybody who worked in children's homes, we didn't sack anybody who was at the front line of s services and we certainly didn't expect other people to pay for our circus tickets. [whispering] didn't sack anybody [] We actually believe that the people of would prefer prefer their money spending on the environment and front end services. And we actually believe that it's the individual's power to choose. What is now worrying us extremely about Local Government in Britain, in any Labour Authority, which is spreading now like a cancer in, that officers are not trusted now to even take the sick list of decisions so there has to be another sub-committee. I mean, I'm not that rude as to say that's for the payment of allowances, but some people may say that. Officers are paid to implement you can speak in a second. Officers are paid to implement our policies. They're certainly not paid nursing homes. Where's the power to choose for those elderly people that want free at the point of service National Health Service treatment? It was, or it has been, a believe that the N H S was for all of us from the cradle to the grave. It's now a sick joke in the Health Service, it's from the cradle to the Waldergrave. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker001:] The Trusts are in serious financial difficulties and may well be one million pound or two million pound in debt before the end of this financial year. And quite rightly, it's gonna be the subject of a Parliamentary Health Committee Enquiry which starts next week. Meanwhile, it's chief executive, it's brains, it's driving force, is getting out. He says quote, there's unfish unfinished business for the Trust but not for me. And he's so desperate to get out he'll take a twenty thousand pound a year pay cut. He's obviously abandoning the sinking ship cos he knows what's happening to it. Now what effect is that gonna have on the staff who can't leave? Having said that, three hundred are been forced to leave, three hundred are being sacked, as we've heard before. Nurses are actually being sacked at. The official term is released, not sacked, released, made redundant. But that's been consistent because there are three thousand less nurses this year in the N H S than there were last year. I don't believe that's because people are being treated better, or more people are being treated better, but at a cost of eighty million pound, there are four thousand more managers or accountants, people brought in from business, people who will do business, people who will sort out privatisation. Now the Trust refuse to publish their business plans. These are the multi million pound supposedly public money going into it. Whey do they do that? Because they're in the business of competing with other hospitals, competing for treatment, competing with doctors. That's not co-operation, that's not a comprehensive Health Service, that's moving towards privatisation. Now I think it's a bit rich t to slam the Liberals for walking out on the last debate because the Tories didn't attend the Health Trust Select Committee which Council set up. I wish they had have attended, the Tories, because there were very very few people prepared to come and speak in favour of Trusts. Even the proposers from the Trust would not come and talk to the public. Not surprisingly, I heard today that in in there's to be a judicial review on the supposed Trust because they've not given enough information to the public on which to start their enterprise. The survival of the N H S is going to be a major election issue and I know who's gonna win it. Nobody trusts the Trusts, it seems, except the Conservatives and I fear that we're only a General Election away from a fully privatised Health Service. Well, give us the power to choose at the election. The position of the Conservative Party is clear. Opting out hospitals, two tier Health Service, an internal market, competition for business, competition for people's illnesses and treatments, secrecy, less accountability, and privatisation. It's already happening. Labour Party will bring these Trusts back into Health Service and to public control. One of the reasons why they're having such a hard time with trying to privatise the Health Service is because the British public actually feel they own it, they feel a part of it, they feel it's theirs, they know where the hospitals are, they know they can get treatment and they don't abuse it. The Government are steam- rolling these reforms through but the Trusts are failing, failing in, they're failing all over. It is true. For the first fifty seven of them to be set up, at a cost of half a million pounds, did a survey and found that only twelve of the fifty seven were financially viable and that didn't include the Trust. The public do not believe the N H S is safe in Tory hands. [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] Give them the power to choose at the General Election and they will decide the future of the N H S. The future of the N H S is safe with the Labour Party, with your lot it's privatisation, it's started already and we're a General Election away from the end of the N H S. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] right to the very bitter end I assure you. Lord Mayor, we've always been opposed to Trusts because of their independent nature which we see as really making it impossible because of that very nature to plan for health care properly. The two are really incompatible in the way that the Trusts are deemed to operate. But one of the problems with attacking Trust, I mean it may be possible to to envisage some sort of modified Trust with some local input at some stage without the contracting apparatus. It may be possible to envisage a Trust that could work and could operate. There are many simil similarities after all with the D N U's anyway. And really we ought to be concentrating far more upon the other other changes which are proposed other than the Trusts and the things that in fact are fo far worse in my my own opinion. Most of the problems that are arising are not just because of the Trusts but because of other things like for instance the contracting process that is proposed, the t the changing in the financing that is incorporated and of course the general under-funding which there is within the N H S. These are far more important problems in the long term. Now, paragraph four of our amendment here is not really designed to knock the Labour Party. It's really more to do with the er means rather than the ends, which I think we sh we all share and so i it was actually included more out of of sadness than anger and we tearfully put the word regret, not condemns, but regret really, the way that the campaign has been launched against the Trust. What we feel is that by going at it like a bull in a china shop,we all sorts of accusations of widespread privatisation has actually backfired. It's been a classic g case of scoring a lot of home goals here, which the Tories have actually benefited from. Talking about privatising the National Health Service and opting out of the National Health Service is not actually very helpful because people don't believe that, they don't believe it's er N H S P L C. They do not, it is not a British Gas, it is not a British Telecom, they know it's not and it devalues your argument if you talk of it in those terms, and it allows Waldergrave to stand up and to renounce and reject your statements and weaken your case. The impression is that the Tories are winning the debate because you're having to amend some of your earlier statements. You're not walking, not about widespread privatisation, but creeping privatisation and you're now talking about not opting out of the National Health Service but you're now talking about opting out of local national Health Service control. People know this, they identify with this, they recognise that you're back-tracking and it looks as though your ke case is hereby weakened. Now the problem is that the Tories do not have to privatise the National Health Service to damage it. There are lots of other ways that they have found of doing it. The contracting system is damaging to the National Health Service. The proposals to do away with nationally negotiated pay and condition will damage the Health Service. The attack on funding levels will damage it. The G P's are in turmoil at the moment, the G P practices, they're in turmoil at the moment, that's damaging. It's interesting, there is no doubt, no doubt you are there's a very learned journal called the Liberal Democrat News which which you are no doubt. Now it reports in here a survey carried out in The Doctor, September the twenty sixth, and it was asking there who they actually supported in terms of the National Health Service changes, and you may be surprised to hear who in fact came out on top of that. from doctors That's from doctors. Doctors themselves saying that. On what the Labour Party have claimed for themself as being their issue. Now that would worry me. That would worry me if I was a Labour Party member because you have got a good case but you are not putting it across in a way that convinces doctors themselves. You are actually, I know that many doctors traditionally vote Conservative, but you are actually behind the Tories with only twenty one percent support. That must, should, worry you in terms of the case that you're putting across. There are lots of things to attack the Conservatives on and it is a question of how that is actually done. We don't need to make things up. We don't have to. All we have to do is tell it as it actually is and then trust the people themselves to decide. [tape breaks here] Councillor [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, I'm delighted to have this opportunity to debate the Government's health reforms again. I'm disappointed by the two er contributions we've had so far. We've had a list of anecdotes designed to panic the public and patience of Councillor and I was disappointed that Liberal don't seem to understand that the Health Authorities have now been given the op the responsibility for planning and provisional health care in er in health authorities. This planning is being done in a way that it has never been done before and I'm surprised they haven't grasped that. I'd like to have a look at the er to examine Labour's motions today. The three sections of it. The most important part of their, the first section of their of their er their motion is opting out of local N H S control. Now this is a downright lie [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] again designed to er to panic the public. Government and hospitals are not opting out of the N H S at all, they are every much of it a as part of the Health Service as they every have been and you all know that and it's about time you stopped saying it. They are now under local control, not opting out of local control, they are actually being managed locally and that is quite obvious to anybody They are no longer being managed by the Health Authority across the road, remotely, no no contact between the two, or not enough anyway, no longer being managed by a region fifty miles, or forty miles, whatever it is, up the road to. What way is that to manage a hospital? Ma Trust hospitals are being managed locally within the hospital building and that's the way to do it. They're being managed by the staff who work there. It's sensible. How can anybody disagree with that? And I know a lot of Labour people do agree with that., who spoke so eloquently in this Chamber two years ago, has now joined the Trust staff. She was a candidate at North a as your candidate there and now she's joined the Trust. Some people are seeing the light, even from your own side. What would what what what are Labour's plans for the Health Service? Well, we haven't heard any have we? All they w all they're saying they would do is restore it back to what it was. Well, we all know what it was under Labour. Under Labour, under Labour waiting lists are always [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] under Labour waiting lists have gone up every time we've had a Labour administration. Every time we've had a Conservative administration waiting lists have gone down. It's not as if the contribution of Labour Councillors to th to the management of Health Authorities has been very er productive. I've sat on the district management board of Health Authority for four years and watched Labour Councillors coming sometimes, often not coming at all, sitting there saying nothing, debating very little in the way of useful contributions until, I have to say, Councillor came along and er a er, sorry to get you unpopular with the rest of your colleagues they seem to be there just to guard vested interests. It's no way to manage a Health Authority to have to have people coming along there to t guard their own vested interests. Trades Union members As as Councillor said, Labour keep altering their story about the Health Service. They started off saying opting out of the Health Service, now we're opting of local N H S control. We started off with privatisation, now we've got creeping privatisation. Well Labour were the first to introduce charges to people in the Health Service. They were the ones who started charging people for glasses and surgical appliances, wigs, things that are necessary and actually help in the management and care of patients. They're the ones who started charging people. All Conservatives have done is put out services to tender such as cleaning, laundry and portering, and allowed those services to be provided by the company or, and sometimes the Health Authority, that gives the best deal. There's no expense to the patients, no charge to patients, no cost to patients. There are are advantages to patients, better quality control, greater efficiency and financial savings ploughed back into patient care. Now, if that's creeping privatisation, let's have some more of it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] However, the Government has no intention to privatise health care. We've had it straight and true from John Major. I believe him. I agree with him and I would resign from the Conservative Party if it were anything else. I have worked for the Health Service for twenty six years and plan to carry on doing so and I fully expect to finish my work in the Health Service where it's still in Government hands. Let's look at the second section of th of Labour's motion. Stated policy of Labour Party. When I read the first six words of that I thought, good Lord, we're going to get a bit of policy here and but no, no, none of it. It's hardly a policy to say that they're stating we're intending to return the Trust to N H S when it's never left the N H S in the first place. Labour has no constructive policies, or at least we haven't heard any. Councillor came to a meeting in and spoke for for th for twenty minutes or whatever it was. He didn't give us a single inkling of anyth any Labour policies. All he did was suggest that the er the Health Authority chairman and the district general manager should resign, which which which he got the headlines for as, as designed, but it was no no contribution to the discussion about the Health Service whatsoever. One of th one of Labour's own party, the supporters, has called the Labour policies for health care, if they exist, a process of fossilisation. As I said, I've worked in the health service for twenty six years. I've seen strikes under Labour. I said this at the last time we discussed this. I've seen Labour inspired Trade Union control of hospitals, I've seen the patient to be the last in Labour's priorities [speaker002:] hear hear [speaker001:] Let's move to the third section. Considerable opposition in to setting up Trusts. Well this is a real joke. Everybody knows that the Community Health Trust had an extensive consultation exercise with the public. They had m several public meetings. Less than ten people turned up. And then the biggest joke, this Trust Select Committee, Councillor Committee. It was planned originally that there would be three whole days packed with people coming to coming to pass an opinion. It was watered down to three half days. Four hundred and seventeen individuals were invited to come, a hundred and fifteen organisations were invited. Who turned up? A few Labour Councillors, a Labour M P, two or three Trade Union representatives, a G P a G P who happens to be a Councillors, Labour Councillor's wife and one or two others [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Does this really show that the public of are worried about the Trusts' hospitals. It's not my experience, sitting there in the in the clinics. The practice of medicine is carrying on the same way as it has done before but we're addressing issues like quality and standards and timing and waiting lists in a way we haven't done before. I don't expect you to know this because you don't work there. I do. So perhaps you'll take it from me [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] The truth, the truth is, the truth is that more and more people and organisations are realising the benefits of local control of N H S hospitals, as in the Trust hospitals. The public and especially hospital consultants are rapidly realising and acknowledging that Trust hospital status is a genuine attempt to address local health needs which is providing increasingly successful health care. If we look at cons sa take consultant's views, I'm afraid that hospital consultants are not the quickest to grasp the advantages of reform. They didn't want the Health Service in the first place but we rapidly came round to it. We didn't want the reforms it seems but now sixty to seventy percent of consultants are wanting the reforms. And we heard some figures about G P's, ninety two percent of those G P's who've got their own budgets are seeing the benefits to their patients and their patients are saying so as well. Undoubtedly benefits are coming from those sorts of changes that come from the Health Service reforms. And then we come on to the final point, the whole issue of N H S changes in the final section. Are Councillors and against all the changes in the Health Service, in the Government Health Service reforms? Have they read the white paper? Are they against medical audit? Are they against financial audit? Isn't it good to know the results of treatment? Isn't it good to know the costs of it? I've said G P budget holding is a success and so are Trust hospitals. My Lord Mayor, I totally reject this motion as a load of baloney. Trust hospitals are very successful and will continue to be so. [speaker002:] hear hear [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor Lord Mayor, I've only been brought up under the National Health Service for thirty two years and I feel sorry for that poor doctor. He started off as doctor in the house, then he moved to doctor at sea and now he's doctor in trouble, as a result of these Government policies. And it's clear, we're seeing already, that Health Authorities haven't got the money to refer patients to the Trusts unless the Government steps in and says, that's not Government policy, so you won't see the problems Councillor because they won't get referred to you, will they? The Government's policy is like an ailing comedy, carry on, except it's carry on regardless of professional and public opinion. The Government's dogma over the National Health Service has turned into panic. The second wave of Trusts has become like a second hand car sale. It's accompanied by a wave of hysteria. Some Government ministers denying privatisation, under-funding, they've even denied those holy grails of ownership and choice which are the foundation of the Tory Party. But the fact remains we can't trust the Trusts. And I'll tell you what the problem is about the Trusts, and I'll explain why they are opting out of the National Health Service. Because the powers, responsibilities and assets of the National Health Service will be vested in a private Trust. That's right, we'll be waiting, as we did with the planning applications to come in on hospital. They're not democratic, nor are they accountable. Only two have decided to hold their meetings in public. Not many, Councillor, not many of us are gonna have the choice to see the minutes of those Trust bodies. The decisions that they make are gonna be based on comers commercial considerations, not health, so I'm sure the doctors won't be won't be bothered with decisions, Councillor because the accountants will be making them for them. The fact is that it won't be an integrated service. We'll all be separate cost units, won't we? Like the ambulance service who is having to go out and find income, having to do health and safety checks at factories just when you need an ambulance. Yes, who can refer to the ambulance service when they're out making money and, of course, the staff are gonna suffer. As has been said, only one in five Trusts have said they'll honour the terms and conditions of the National Health Service workers and we've seen the disgraceful decisions that're being made in. I'm sure we'll be seeing more of the same to follow, down the road at. The Trust process has been a sham. There's been consultation. I waited eagerly every morning, would it drop through the door, this Trust leaflet? I was wa I needed the information for that debate Councillor. It didn't arrive, even after had given me assurance every household in would get a leaflet. They got them in. I don't know why, it's outside the area. We didn't get em. So you can consult people in about what's happening in and wider afield. The fact is, there's been a complete lack of consultation. It's only this Authority that the consultation process in this district and you've had the answer, a resounding no to the Trusts. I won't beat about the bush about creeping privatisation because in it's become a stampede. It's unique amongst Health Authorities. Every part of the National Health Service in is gonna be placed under the auspices of the Trust. That isn't creeping, that's a stampede. And we're gonna see a three pronged attack against the public service. Privatisation in three ways, increasing compulsory competitive tendering, and we know what that is at, we've seen it plan, quality control, can't clean the operating theatres. Yeah, that really helps patients. They'll be coming out with more diseases than they went in with [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Specialist services specialist services hiving off. Let's talk with Water, let's talk with B T, anybody providing we can get a bit of private income in there. And a greater role for private health insurance. We know who's jumping the queue and we know which directors of the Health Authority have got private health insurance in. We know who they'll be jumping over, yes, the people who haven't got the choice of private health insurance Councillor because they can't afford it. And what stinks about it is vested interests to the fore. was a great man but the only problem was he left a vested interested in the National Health Service and that's coming to the fore. And yes, a district general manager should've resigned because he had an interest in the decision to go for the Trust status. had the decency to resign in but not in. We don't trust the Trusts. We know what it means. I can't give you a strategy on how to fund the National Health Service. We know that the British Medical Association say it's under-funded to the tune of six billion pounds but we'll say what we said before we took control of this Council, we'll open the books and we'll direct resources to priorities. And chief amongst Labour priorities is the National Health Service. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] still not a sign of any policy from them on the Health Service, par for the course. Lord Mayor, the Conservative Group welcomes this opportunity to debate reforms in the National Health Service. The only disappointment is the lack of substance in Councillor motion. I must confess to be somewhat surprised to see the Labour Group wanting to debate thisu this issue again after their lack lustre performance in Committee and Council on the previous debates on this subject and today's been no different. Let's look at this issues. At the last Council meeting I quoted figures on comparative performance of the Conservative record on health against Labour's and I make no apology for reiterating some of these figures, and you can howl and you can wail and you can say what you want, these are facts. No, these are facts that can be borne out. Nurses pay has risen by forty eight percent ahead of inflation. Under Labour it was cut by five percent. Doctors pay is up thirty nine percent after inflation, under Labour it was cut by seventeen percent. The Party that are the bastions of the Health Service. Just over one million additional hospital cases were treated in 1989, compared with seventy eight. The number of in-patients treated has increased by one point two million. Waiting lists have risen, as Councillor has already said, under every Labour Government, and fallen under every Conservative Government since the N H S was founded. That is fact. That is fact. [speaker002:] [shouting] [] [speaker001:] It's ten o'clock. That is fact Lord Mayor and these facts will bear out. I challenge Councillor to bring me the evidence saying otherwise. So if it's doing so well

[speaker001:] of our officers who work in children's homes, we didn't sack anybody who was at the front line of s services and we certainly didn't expect other people to pay for our circus tickets. [whispering] didn't sack anybody [] We actually believe that the people of would prefer prefer their money spending on the environment and front end services. And we actually believe that it's the individual's power to choose. What is now worrying us extremely about Local Government in Britain, in any Labour Authority, which is spreading now like a cancer in, that officers are not trusted now to even take the sick list of decisions so there has to be another sub-committee. I mean, I'm not that rude as to say that's for the payment of allowances, but some people may say that. Officers are paid to implement you can speak in a second. Officers are paid to implement our policies. They're certainly not paid to write Councillor press releases here here at least even I never stooped to sending a circular round Community and Environment saying we do not want the danger of officers actually talking to the public and if there's any credit, Councillor got to have it. The power to choose, the power to choose, well if the power to choose in politics is about the Labour Party choosing their own candidate for the by-election and then the National Party replacing that candidate, well that's a Party I don't want to be a party to and that's nothing that we would ever stoop to We've got to make a quite simple decision. We believe as a Party that the power of this county be individual, that he or she should have the power to choose. Not like the Labour Party, that we the Labour Party have the power to choose that you don't have the right to own. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] your says three consecutive Governments, Conservative Governments in Britain have striven to give power to the people, the right to choose and the right to own. Let's just have a look at what you've actually achieved. Let's look at your performance. And what a performance. It's worthy of an oscar. This Government has managed to combine the worst qualities of scrooge, Shylock and Genghis khan. [LAUGHTER] The Tory manifesto of 1983 declared, we have a goal. It finished up it turned out to be an own goal. Their statement in their manifesto says, we promise that we will make Britain the best housed nation in Europe. That was 1983. 1988 a Government report declared there was a million houses in Britain unfit for human habitation. We spend less than most of the other European countries on housing. Public sector housing investment has been cut by seventy percent. Some choice. This Government has decimated the housing stock of this country and the Tories in this Chamber dare to talk about the right to choose and the power to buy. And Councillor talked about the resol the question County Council about the Right to Buy and why have a number of houses been sold gone down. Two simple answers, one they're not there and B, people can't afford them. I remind that we put in a housing investment bid for a hundred and twelve million pounds and were given the right to buy thirteen million. Let's talk about the choice of the people that're homeless. Why are there so many people homeless? I'll tell you why. It's because of the inhumane way that this Government treats people who experience financial problems of any kind and those other problems associated with those matters. This Government has no time at all for the poor and even less time for people who become poor as a result of their savage policies, the policies which cause high interest rates, rising unemployment and all because of it's obsession with inflation. Let's look at house building, and you want to sell houses. Well, if you want to sell houses, why have all the major building companies in this country announced the largest cuts in profits this decade? Quite simply, because people cannot afford to buy them. Public sector housing, housing associations, building has been cut by two thirds. Did you give the building companies the choice? Is that what you mean about choice? Give a choice of losing, like did, two hundred million pound. That's some choice under a Tory Government. The Tories lied that we obstruct Council house sales. What's the point of advertising a porsche if you don't have one? Where are all the houses to sell? Simply they're not there. We, as a Council, have sold fourteen and a half thousand, with no facilities to build. The Labour Government will put that right. But where's choice there? Where is the individuals' right to own? Let's talk about the plight of families. What's gonna be the case? Because if we continue with the housing stock that we've got, then families living in high rise flats are never ever gonna have the opportunity to own their own house with a garden so the children can play. What choice is that? What choice have you given to the hundred thousand people, hundred thousand people, whose mortgages have been repossessed, who have been made homeless by the policies of your Government? That's some choice. What choice have you given to the seventy five families that tonight are in bed and breakfast in this city with children? What choice have they got? What choice are you giving the nine and a half thousand people on our Council waiting list? And what chance have they got of getting a house? If I lived in,,,, ten years waiting list, ten years waiting list to have the opportunity, if there is an opportunity to come, to own or get a three bedroomed house. That's some choice. It's costing half a million pounds this year to pay for bed and breakfast. How illogical it is. Half a million pounds, if we were to be given the resources, would enable us, debt charge wise, to build two hundred and fifty family houses. What an illogical society it is, and what choice have we got? I'll tell the people of who has a real choice. It's the privileged few. The poor or less well off who cannot afford private health and pay school fees. That's what choice means to people. Tories are not the Party of choice and ownership but the Party of restrictions and repossessions. Choice for the rich means hobsons choice for the rest. You mentioned environment, Councillor and you've a Government white paper, a common inheritance. And I agree, the Government claims it's done a great deal for the environment. Indeed it has, it's polluted the rivers, dumped toxic waste on our land, poisoned the air and poisoned the water. You also mention within your document the N H S. Well, let's just have a little word about the N H S. Let's talk about the dedic dedicated staff working in the N H S who have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Let's ask the twelve nurses at hospital how they feel about their own jobs. What choice did you give them? What choice do you give the patients that can't use that ward that you've closed down? What choice have you given the patients who can't use the six other wards that you've closed down? What choice have you given the million people who're on the waiting list for National Health Service? That's some choice. The seven million pound cuts in the N H S service since the Trust. Three hundred jobs' re gonna go. That's some choice. Keep your choices, we don't want them. This Government does not give a damn about the despair and breakdown of family life. Their policies are causing this an sorry, their policies are causing, and this from the Party which are supposed to believe in the sanctity of family life. We are certainly heading back to Victorian times on a tide of human misery. The economy. What choice are you giving three million unemployed people? Two recessions within a ten year period. What about the family living on Income Support, on poverty and deprivation? What choice do they have? The old age pension that's gonna get two pound fifteen. Thank you very much. Two pound fifteen. Two pound fifteen. The Tory Government, my Lord Mayor, has for too long denied people the real choice. But if the Tories opposite truly believe that they are the poi Party of choice, then let them have the courage to call a General Election. [speaker002:] here here [clapping] [speaker001:] Give the people of and this country the opportunity to show them what choice they're gonna make, and it won't be a Tory Government, it'll be a Labour Government. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Actually it's quite a good speech from my opposition colleague there, but it's total nonsense really. It didn't do anything for the tenants of this city or didn't put any new proposals forward. It went straight away back to the old socialist ideology of fifty years ago. The Party choose, my Lord Mayor, the right to own one of the fundamental principles of Conservative philosophy, just as just as with Labour philosit philosophy, Labour will choose and Labour will own. That's your philosophy. Since the Tenants Right to Buy was first introduced in 1980 it's been constantly opposed by Labour and indeed the S L D who've taken their fat away. This is in marked contrast to the Conservative Government which has consistently supported policies to spread home ownership throughout the country, giving people the choice and the independence which home ownership brings. But, my Lord Mayor, Labour were not to know in the early eighties how popular the Tenants Right to Buy would be. Over one point two million houses bought by Council tenants of their own free will, so much so, my Lord Mayor, that some Labour politicians have had no choice but to do a U turn and give their support to the Right to Buy. My Lord Mayor, how could they not throw out their socialist ideology when so many Labour Councillors, Labour Councillors, were buying, and some in this very Chamber, were indeed buying their own Council house. It's now clear, my Lord Mayor, what the Labour Party has transferred has transferred it's opposition to Right to Buy in to opposition towards the new Rents to Mortgage. Typically, ten years too late. We can see from Labour's amendment J that Councillor, as I said earlier, intends to go down the same old socialist way of providing the very type of housing that is currently failing tenants. Lord Mayor, the Labour Group in have a way of bandying words about without any action. We've heard quite a bit of it tonight. One word they particularly like is, consultation. I would like to ask the current, and I emphasise the current, housing chairman, how much consultation he is being offered to our tenants. Has he for instance consulted them with their rights under the Tenants Charter? Has he consulted them on their right to choose another landlord under the Government's new Tenants Choice? Has he asked indeed the tenants who have not already bought their home if they would be interested in the Government's Rent to Buy housing scheme? Has he consulted with tenants on the benefits of transferring their estates to housing associations? My Lord Mayor, I think not. It's a sad indictment on our present housing chairman, when asked in committee about the changing roles of housing associations, he said, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Well, my Lord Mayor, with that kind of thinking, what hope have our tenants of ever raising their quality of life in our badly thought out Council estates? Council housing, as we know it, is not the answer. The role of Local Authorities as large scale landlords does simply not work. You only have to see some of run down estates for the evidence. It restricts the mobility of the family, it does not create pride of ownership, it does not give a sense of belonging within the community, it encourages crime and with the resultant loss of personal safety. The vast majority of people, Lord Mayor, Lord Mayor, the vast majority of people, the vast majority of people would wish to own their own home. We are the only Party who believe that every family has the right to their own home. Finally, my Lord Mayor, I welcome I welcome and support our motion, quite clearly taken from the brilliant speech made by the Prime Minister at Conservative Party Conference, and when and when the Conservative Government is re-elected next year, we will give the people the power to choose and we will give the people the right to own. Thank you, my Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] your lucky day. If I may start [clears throat] excuse me, my Lord Mayor, by answering something that appears to be confusing the Conservative benches. Despite my baby-faced good looks, I am actually old enough to remember 1979, I am also old enough to remember 1974, 1970, 1966, so I hope that's cleared up. I'm not gonna go back any further than that. But it does seem to me that, can you really trust a front bench, that can't work out that I might be slightly over the age of twenty one? If you listen to what the Tories are actually saying, it's the same old I'm alright Jack mentality. I can do it, I can afford it, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna get it for me and devil take the. We've heard it all before. We're gonna hear it time and time again in the run up to the Election. There was no mention of the rights of people to combine collectively to have their views represented, no where in that, it was all me me me. The people at G C H Q, whose rights you lot took away, to joining Trade Unions, where are th where's their rights? Are you gonna restore them? Is Councillor gonna stand up and say that he believes in the right of people to join Trade Unions? I think not. We we should discuss a bit about this document and I too have had the er dubious honour of reading John Major's speech and it's nice to see that both Tory speakers have actually managed to take half of it each and paraphrase it. I think they have a cheek to complain about people writing other people's press releases when they can't even write their own speeches, they just take a bit of their leaders and claim it as their own. If you have ever actually looked at this document that they have produced for today's meeting, it is not a strategy, it's not a statement, it's just a trotting out of the old stories that have been knocked back time and time again, but if they're gonna bring it out, let's knock it back again. Let's look at some of the issues that aren't gonna be alluded to in other debates today. Let's start off with tax. The Tories have cut int income tax. Certainly, congratulations. They forget to mention a few other little things. V A T has risen from eight percent to seventeen and a half percent. National, there is no choice in paying your electricity bill, your gas bill, your water rates, where V A T has gone up. Don't talk to me about choice with that. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] National Insurance contributions have risen from six point five percent to nine percent and child benefit cuts have cost a family with two children a hundred and fifty four pounds. There was no choice and you're taking away rights in that. The poorest people in the country have had their tax burden trebled since 1979 and the tax burden has increased, for the average family, from thirty two percent of their income to over thirty three percent. Shareholding. Fine. More people own shares but, as a percentage of the number of shares held, the individual shareholding has fallen from thirty percent in 1979 to eighteen percent today, and if all these shareholders c turned up to exercise their right and their power at the annual meeting of British Telecom or British Gas, or any other, to say, we think it's outrageous the sort of money that you are now paying your chairs and your directors, what would happen? They would be out-voted by the pension funds, the banks, the city institutions, the paymasters of the Tory Party. We have heard a lot today about the of the Trade Union. We've heard nothing about [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] their links with big business. Education. The issue about assisted places in the C T C is irrelevant to a majority of the people out there. It's especially irrelevant as you didn't even seem to introduce them when you were in control. We believe that people should have the choice and the choice and the rights that most people want is for their children to be educated in schools without water dripping down the walls, where the ceiling doesn't fall in, that doesn't rely on temporary classes. That's rights, that's choice. If you're talking, if you're talking about L M S giving people rights and choice, you haven't spoken to that many heads because most heads wanna get on with the business of educating people, not being financial bureaucrats trying to balance inadequate school budgets. Most governors also have work to go to and we don't and we don't I did not say that and you would know it, Councillor. Basically, what we are faced with here is the standard Tory lies, the standard Tory attempt to dig themselves out of their hole. It's not a statement, it is a waste of paper and you should be ashamed to have bought it. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] The debate has now gone on for thirty minutes. Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move Lord Mayor. Somebody get the other group back in? Don't tell them That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine, forty eight in mi as a matt as a mere mathematician I think that's carried. Those in favour of amendment F moved by Councillor please show. I'm sorry, it's J, it's me that can't read properly. That, that is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine and now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Those against? That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine Move on to the next white paper motion on the Health Service Trust. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. So moved, Lord Mayor Seconded? Call upon Councillor to move amendment L standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment M standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? That the Council deal with it at this meeting Those in favour? Unanimous. Councillor I think I ought to remind you, all of us, the three basic principles of the National Health Service. One, that is should be free at the point of service. Two, that treatment offered should be on a basis of need and not ability to pay and thirdly, that it should be a comprehensive service for all people whatever background they come from. That's something that I strongly support and my Party does, and I believe a vast majority of the country support. There's been much debate recently about whether the Tories are going to privatise the Health Service in the future. I think it's actually a waste of time discussing that because they are already privatising the Health Service. Free at the point of service. One in nine of the operations carried out in the region now are done privately, and that's actually one in three in some parts of. That's not free at the point of service. Private hospitals are actually gonna charge women from outside sixty pounds for osteoporosis screening. I think that's disgusting and certainly it's not free at the point of service. The Government to introduce charges for eye tests and since then three million less eye tests have been carried out. Short term cuts, long term misery, and more problems for the Health Service. That's not free at the point of service. What about treatment on the basis of need? Surgeons in are being told to do less emergency operations because of the extra costs involved and in surgeons are ordered to give priority to patients who come from G P budget holders because there's more money coming from those budget holders, nothing to do with basis of need. A comprehensive service. You look at, they've transferred all their long term N H S care for the elderly to private nursing homes. Where's the power to choose for those elderly people that want free at the point of service National Health Service treatment? It was, or it has been, a belief that the N H S was for all of us from the cradle to the grave. It's now a sick joke in the Health Service, it's from the cradle to the Waldergrave. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker001:] The Trusts are in serious financial difficulties and may well be one million pound or two million pound in debt before the end of this financial year. And quite rightly, it's gonna be the subject of a Parliamentary Health Select Committee Enquiry which starts next week. Meanwhile, it's chief executive, it's brains, it's driving force, is getting out. He says, quote, there's unfish unfinished business for the Trust but not for me. And he's so desperate to get out he'll take a twenty thousand pound a year pay cut. He's obviously abandoning the sinking ship cos he knows what's happening to it. Now what effect is that gonna have on the staff who can't leave? Having said that, three hundred are been forced to leave, three hundred are being sacked, as we've heard before. Nurses are actually being sacked at. The official term is released, not sacked, released, made redundant. But that's been consistent because there are three thousand less nurses this year in the N H S than there were last year. I don't believe that's because people are being treated better, or more people are being treated better, but at a cost of eighty million pound, there are four thousand more managers or accountants, people brought in Under Labour it was cut by five percent. Doctors pay is up thirty nine percent after inflation, under Labour it was cut by seventeen percent. The Party that are the bastions of the Health Service. Just over one million additional hospital cases were treated in 1989, compared with seventy eight. The number of in- patients treated has increased by one point two million. Waiting lists have risen, as Councillor has already said, under every Labour Government, and fallen under every Conservative Government since the N H S was founded. That is fact. That is fact. [speaker002:] [shouting] [] [speaker001:] It's ten o'clock. That is fact Lord Mayor and these facts will bear out. I challenge Councillor to bring me the evidence saying otherwise. So if it's doing so well, oh and you wouldn't have been on that long under a Labour Government, of course, it would've been jobs for the boys, they'd've slipped you in I'm sure. So why do the Conservatives want to make changes then if we've got such a good record on health? The answer, as we have always said, is that there are always ways of improving services in addition to putting more money in. This is where we differ from the Labour Party, whose answer is always more money, more money, more money. The Conservative philosophy is not just to increase spending. Let's be more efficient and make the tax payers' money be used wisely. Let's take a look at the changes the Trusts, under N H S Trusts, staff can adapt their services more easily to suit the needs of local people. I thought this was what some of your policy was supposed to be all about. They can decide their own management and staffing structures, capital programmes and pay and conditions, except those of junior doctors. There is nothing unusual in the idea of hospitals managing themselves. It was only in 1974 that teaching hospitals were brought under Health Authority control. Although Trusts only came into operation in April ninety one, the evidence suggests that many, that many have improved patient services in many w many areas waiting lists have been cut through greater efficiency and increased use of day surgery. The organisation and Company produced a report on N H S Trusts based on discussions with nearly sixty percent of the chief execs of the first wave. It said, the key finding of the survey is that an overwhelming majority of the Trusts are reporting an improved performance. On the eighteenth of August the Sunday Times published a survey of twenty five of the biggest Trust hospitals. It concluded more patients were being treated and waiting times had been cut. So what of Labour's scare tactics of privatisation? I'll quote you from the Daily Telegraph That, that totally, just like the T and A, that totally unbiased paper. Lie is a nasty word. Lie is a nasty word and those in politics ten who use it tend to get hit by it on the rebound. Labour has been saying something it knows to be untrue. This is Mister Kinnock's words, that the Tories will privatise the Health Service. That seems to me to qualify as a false statement made with the intention of dise deceiving which is how the dictionary defines a lie. The Labour Party pose as the guardian of the N H S but when pressed they've not policies, only empty promises, no idea where the funding would come fo from to pay for their ill thought out pledges. Robin Cook, that great man the opposition, of the opposition, an immediate, well then let me quote ya, let me quote ya. I'm I'm pleased it's flavour of the month because it's just going to show you all when w when you listen to his words. An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust Programme and a long term commitment to restore N H S funding was promised yesterday by Robin Cook. But Mister Cook, health spokesman, declined to say how much extra money he thought the N H S needed, or the amount the future Labour Chancellor would be prepared to find. An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust, sorry I'm reading the same thing again. The N H S will not be privatised under Conservatives, it will prosper from the reforms taking place. Finally, Lord Mayor, I believe everything I've said. I believe that the Labour Party know this is a lie. Councillor has put this motion in. No, it's your policy that if you tell the lie often enough people people believe it. Councillor, well well we'll find out, Councillor has put this motion in, I've wound it up Lord Mayor, I'll challenge him or any of his team to a public debate where we can look at the record about, name your place, name your time, I will, I will debate with you in public Councillor on our record of reforms and the Health Service. In return you must promise Council or that you will outline to the people of the Labour Party's plans for the N H S, and state where you will get the funding from. It's time to put up or shut up Councillor. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] My Lord Mayor I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move, Lord Mayor. [speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [speaker001:] Just a minute. Before you before you all vote. Put your hands down a minute. I want to remind you that those who have declared an interest should not vote. Those in favour. Those against? Mhm? [whispering] that's lost, forty eight, twenty six [] That is lost by twenty eight to forty six. Those in favour of amendment L moved by Councillor. Two. Those against? Well it's obviously lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] Mhm? Forty four now []. Those against? That is carried, forty four votes to thirty. I now move on to black paper motion number six, Euro Cities. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. [tape breaks here] Call upon Councillor to move amendment N standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? I propose it be debated at this meeting Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour? Yes, ok. Councillor I haven't started, I haven't started yet, just let me get it out my system. Are ya, are ya settled now? Are you settled? Are you settled? Right, right. Monsieur Le Mayor. Signor My Lord Mayor, in case you hadn't noticed, foreign languages. But not foreign languages that are not new to. There's a serious, a serious side Lord Mayor, to that greeting cos I just looked at the number of companies that are owned this shareholders scheme that they like to promote, the number of companies that're owned by foreign nationals. of owned by the Swiss,, owned by the Germans,, owned by German, a large number of companies under foreign ownership. One reason, one major reason why got to play a pa a role in Europe, to po protect the interests of the work force within and I make no apologies for any of the visits that any of our members have been on because they've all been worthwhile. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] and you know, tonight, tonight, tonight I wanted to, I wanted to have a knock about with my old sparring partner but he's ill, he's very ill from what I've heard tonight and he should go see a doctor. Because, because Councillor don't take my advice tonight, and I never thought I'd be thankful to but take advantage of what says what you should do. Something about casseroles, I don't understand that. But the Euro Cities and the position of in Europe is of tremendous importance because of the failure of your Government to recognise the needs of this district and the nis needs of this region. We've heard, so eloquently said by many of my comrades tonight, about the problems right across the sectors affecting and I congratulate each and every one on their contribution tonight. We're not gonna waste time explaining things to you and fortunately, through our friends, through out friends in the T and A, we don't have to waste time. The message gets out. There's many factors, many factors, and I'd like to pay congratulations to Councillor I think it was, or the member certainly that came to the Economic er Sub-committee that discussed the European report back because there we did have a proper discussion about the value of those trips. But for those that weren't there, let me explains some of the good reasons why we're involved. Evidence of the European Commission experts that strategic alliance between cities are likely to form the basis of future business links. Action endorsed by our own Chamber of Commerce and by our own business leaders in this city on the visits that we took place. previous track record in Europe, and Councillor, you can't have it both ways. You claim on the one hand how wonderful you were in securing grants for under the I D O. You actually sold this city short because you went for the I D O without making sure that your Government paid the extra money that robbed that robbed [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] that robbed social services, education and housing. You know it's true. The first visit to Brussels, the amend, the first visit to Brussels we had to go and bail you out because the Commission, the Commission, we could have been in this er the Commission were gonna pull the plug on because of your failure while you were in control to adhere to the programme here here to adhere to the programme because the newly privatised the newly privatised Water Authority and British Rail couldn't affo couldn't afford the finance to put their share in to the grants from Brussels. That's what happened, so that's a reality. You're a wonderful s you're a wonderful speaker but wait til I've finished. Right. The position on Euro Cities also is that we, and unfortunately are the leading European cities that are involved in promoting good initiatives on the expertise of what exists within, be it economic development, be it equal opportunities policies, we are promoting this city and the benefit of getting those grants and having those foresight of putting officers into Brussels means that is being invited by other cities within Europe and Eastern Europe to develop links based on what our expertise is. Because the difference between us and the Tories is when we mean we support for Eastern Europe, we don't just talk about it glibly, we go there and we do it because we see the future of Europe being the future of our own people here in. Sixty million pounds this Council has got out of Europe. The costs of the trips. Brussels related, the cost of the trips, less than one percent. A nonsense view to attack that. But then listening, listening to what you've been attacking tonight, I'm very sad really that that's all you've got to offer. A weak Tory group that doesn't say anything positive about anything. That has a go, an attack, about everything because you've been rejected so many times, so many times, and will continue to be rejected when we get the next election that you're frightened to death to have. Opting out of hospitals of the N H S, opting skills out of L M S and trying to opt out of Europe. I hope you I hope you get better. Bye. I didn't realise it were that exciting. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Going back to what I was saying. Opting out of schools, opting out of the N H S and trying to opt out of Europe, but what you forgot is that your leader signed a document that says you can't opt out of Europe. You can argue about single currency but you can't opt out of the European Single Market. And that's a serious side to cos if we in Council don't lead the way to the way that we're trying through the Euro Cities by offering what's good in to Europe, developing those links so that we can share them with the community here and other cultural links, then we're doing a dis- service. We've got a grant of sixty million. We're able to entice further revenue out of Brussels with the support of the private sector. And they're not having a go, they're not having a go, they're saying what can we do to assist? Can we go with ya? They're talking about going with us certainly, but they're doing it in a positive way because they see what the future is. You're trying to shut your eyes to 1993, that's what you're trying to do, and you're trying to pull the rest of us down with it, well it ain't gonna happen. The next steps, cos we aren't gonna be frightened by your tinpot threats about y'know, junketing etcetera. It's no fun for me to be away from my family, away from home. It's no fun for my colleagues to be away. But what we do, what we do is put first, do it properly. Many European cities, many European cities are making great efforts, Strasbourg, Brussels, Barcelona, leading cities within Europe. I'm proud that name's up there. A video was done about European funding. was in there, in that video. The fact a small region, and we call ourselves a region, that's how we got the grants, we now see ourselves developing to support our colleagues in and see the need for a strong regional approach which my colleague will mention later. It's important to this city, both in a financial way, in a cultural way, in the development of the human race, that we make Europe work. You've turned us that route because your Government have switched away from what matters from British people that we represent. Not from those that've got the money to choose, as my colleagues have said, but for those that need to develop and have the opportunity to develop further. I believe that your amendment is typical of the way you've contributed tonight, that you're not really sure for certain about what you're saying and why you're saying it. Public debates, Councillor, well I'll have any of ya. I'll probably debate anywhere on contribution within Europe. Any format, any format. And then you try to turn the argument about attacks on individuals. Public debate is what it's all about. We've had that public debate and we've got the support from the people of for what we're doing within Europe. There's a long way to go because many of these companies that we've mentioned are gonna fight fierce competition from Europe and we need to assist them. They've not looked hasn't British industry because of the attacks it's been under on what Europe has to offer in terms of better training, better health and safety etcetera and we need to bring that information to them. I'm sure that er those thinking members that are left within the Tory group, if there are any thinking members left, will realise the benefits of what we're about and will support the future economic strategy that this Council needs to adopt. So I have pleasure in putting the record straight. I'm not gonna indulge about politics with the of Europe, I believe that what we're saying is the right way forward and I hope you'll wholeheartedly support our resolution. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] the E E C's Euro Citizens Initiative. We should ask ourselves, are we a country of opportunists? And without a doubt our history, the commonwealth of nations and business acumen prove this. We can develop in Europe only within the guidelines set out by Central Government, a Government quite clear that a joining of the attitudes and minds is desirable, not federalism. The and their self-opinionated Premier, Jacques Delores, must be told clearly that we stand for co-operation of Western style democracy, not the old Eastern block style of all encompassing socialist state with the dead hand of Brussels directing policies, as Moscow did with the U S S R. Freedom of the independent nation and people must confer. My Lord Mayor, after setting the parameters, I do feel that can continue it's good relations with our other cities and use Brussels as a tool to this end. Yes, Euro Cities is an organisation of Brussels but it must not be allowed to dominate the proceedings and massage and manage the cities. It must be free city to city co-operation within a loose association with Brussels. We have seen the stupidity of the E E C agriculture programme. This must be avoided in Euro Cities. Euro Cities can be a sound tool for co-operation and our officers must be at the forefront with the Chambers of Trade of Commerce, and Development Association and all, all of which have expertise in Europe. Both agencies that the chief executive's office refers to frequently. However, we must ask, what of our Euro M P's? There seems to be little work from the Labour local member. Perhaps this is why, in addition to officers attending meetings, Labour Councillors need to improve their self indulgence by going into Europe on junkets. There are issues across Europe that we need to be aware of as a city. However, we need to conserve financial prudence and only send members occasionally, with officers more frequently. We need to liaise with Europe as a city but there must be three provisos. One, that we ca that we only go when a clear brief from Brussels officers cannot be established, and not a trip just for the lads which was reminiscent of the last hastily organised trips. Two, that we do not become wrapped up in the Bureaucratic socialism of Brussels and that true entrepreneur spirit is encouraged between cities. And three, that financial prudence and co- operation with the private sector are adopted for the good of our city. Councillor, we all remember 1983 when Labour voted to withdraw from Europe and then wanted to re-negotiate in 1984. This is the Party who are now playing the Euro card with cynicism. Labour are in, Labour are out, or is it now, how best can they play to win votes? here here My Lord Mayor, at the Economic Strategy Sub-committee meeting recently, we were asked to adopt from Florence, an objective two statement which was not clear and did not translate precisely. It is typical of the controlling group's over enthusiasm for the photo press opportunity that they're anxious to sign anything, even if the policies are not clear. With reference to the Euro visits in September, thirteen trips since last summer to Europe. Seven Labour Councillors and twenty three officers, cutting twenty three thousand pounds of Charge payers' money is totally unnecessary when liaison groups already exist within the chief executive's office, the Development Association and the Regional Association, on which we all have representatives. If Labour had supported our idea in it's early stage, we would now have spent over seventy percent of the funds available in the five year cycle. here here Not the miserable thirty four percent spent at the moment, all due to Labour slowing down the regeneration of our district by delaying financial support. Officers need to correlate information and if visits are necessary they should decide, with the chief executive's support, the need to visit Europe, not Labour Councillors on a junket costing twenty thousand out of the pockets of our Charge payers. We support liaison but not self indulgence by Labour Councillors. Even that auguste paper, the T and A, in the editorial, recently stated, we cannot afford the extravagance of going along just to see the party, just to be at the party. Councillor must also remember that, and other major companies have a overseas branches of their company. It is not just a one-way traffic as he tried to er indicate. We have no objection to the principle of a motion on involvement across Europe, especially following our recent friend's city's re-emergence into democracy as both of us can benefit from future E C funds. However, we need to be satisfied that members' visits are essential and we will ensure that the details behind Labour's motion are monitored closely. We have officer liaison groups. Let them get on with it and use their capabilities to the full. We, as members, should not sit on their desks and tell them exactly where to go. That is why we put forward our amendment and hope against all hope that Labour may see the light and vote with us on our amendment. Thank you Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here] [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. is a European city, but not just that, is a city that leads in Europe. It's a city because of it's rich cultural heritage and it's expertise in Local Government affairs that has much to offer those emerging local democracies in Eastern Europe. And yes, we can teach them about partnership, Councillor and I think it's hypocrisy for the Tories to talk about links with the private sector. The private sector didn't know where you were for two years. I've got a very interesting quote here. The scale of our achievement is a result of a great deal of hard work on the part of officers and Councillors. We had the foresight to assess the situation and successfully sell case. Now, I I could have said that but of course it was Councillor. But there is a new situation emerging because the speakers on the opposite side seem to have forgotten what's happened in the last two years in Eastern Europe and the European map is getting wider. Lord Mayor, I'd like to get beyond the hype and because I suspect the real reason behind the criticisms of the leader of the opposition is because the chief executive didn't invite him on one or two of these trips, because if if the stories of are to be believed, and who would doubt him, is that the kind of person that wants as an ambassador in Europe? Nobody on this side of the Council Chamber wants a junket. Like Councillor, personally I've got better things to do, like being at home. But I believe that the decisions made to go on the trips this autumn have been good ones. I would apologise unreservedly if I thought any of them have been a mistake but I don't believe they have been. Any decision that has been made has been with the best intentions of the people of at heart, to maintain as a leading European city and to derive benefits for the people of this community. I'd just like to say a few words on the conferences that I attended. The Euro Cities Conference in, and this is where the Tories fall down on the facts, because Councillor doesn't really understand what Euro Cities is about. Euro Cities is a group of independent cities who're putting pressure on Brussels to maintain funding in urban areas after the review of the structural funds in 1993. And, because of that pressure, the pressure that's already been put on, we got good news at. The European Commissions Director for regional policy said that he'd accepted the submission from Euro Cities that funding would be made available for urban areas. We need to make sure that that pressure stays on because urban areas, as we know with the City Challenge bid and others, have got distinct and unique problems which we need to address. The Euro Cities Conference was also important because it was the founding of that organisation formally and it was important to go there and say to the big monopoly that's emerging it's

[speaker001:] personally I've got better things to do, like being at home. But I believe that the decisions made to go on the trips this autumn have been good ones. I would apologise unreservedly if I thought any of them have been a mistake but I don't believe they have been. Any decision that has been made has been with the best intentions of the people of at heart, to maintain as a leading European city and to derive benefits for the people of this community. I'd just like to say a few words on the conferences that I attended. The Euro Cities Conference in, and this is where the Tories fall down on the facts, because Councillor doesn't really understand what Euro Cities is about. Euro Cities is a group of independent cities who're putting pressure on Brussels to maintain funding in urban areas after the review of the structural funds in 1993. And, because of that pressure, the pressure that's already been put on, we got good news at. The European Commissions Director for regional policy said that he'd accepted the submission from Euro Cities that funding would be made available for urban areas. We need to make sure that that pressure stays on because urban areas, as we know with the City Challenge bid and others, have got distinct and unique problems which we need to address. The Euro Cities Conference was also important because it was the founding of that organisation formally and it was important to go there and say to the big monopoly that's emerging between some of the Western European cities, the big six, Birmingham, Barcelona, Frankfurt, Rotterdam, Milan and Strasbourg, that they weren't gonna get it all their own way and they weren't going to monopolise those funds that were available for links with Eastern Europe. I also went to Prague, Czechoslovakia, hardly sun sangria and sea, Councillor but one thing I'll say about Prague, and this is where all the arguments about Brussels fall down, it's alright to go to Brussels and not to Prague. Prague is a sleeping giant as a city in Europe. Prague will be the major city between Western and Eastern Europe in the future. There's tremendous under-development in Prague at the moment and that's gonna take off. We gave the paper on our links with Estonia. We also made links with the region of in Poland to develop tourist strategy and also links with a number of cities who were very interested in citizens' participation and are going local initiative. There are a number of reasons why we need to make sure that we are in at the starting post in terms of links with Central and Eastern Europe. Because the European Commission is making a number of funds available to develop those links, the overture fund, the knowhow fund funded by the Foreign Office, the fund, the enterprise fund, the fur fund, the tempest fund, all these are in the reportback which I'll gratefully give to the press and also the opposition if they'll bother to read it. But I think there's something more important than funding that was realised at that Conference between Eastern and Western Local Authorities and that is that we need to be there to assist because we can assist. One of the last speeches that the Conference heard was a very emotional speech from a delegate from, Russia, within a winds breath of Chernobyl. He explained to the delegates there the mountain they have to climb before they even reach the status that we have in Britain as Local Authorities. Ten thousand people left the city last year and emigration is on the up. The tremendous problems that they have need addressing and we should be there, not because we can reap the benefits necessarily in funding, although of course that would help, but because we can lend a hand, because we can reach out Local Authority and in my view that is also what the people of would want this Council to do. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] Thank you. Lord Mayor, may I begin by congratulating so many from the majority group for taking the time to attend today's Council meeting. We know that many of them may well have undergone long and arduous journeys, having travelled many miles across many frontiers and indeed possibly even across many continents just in order to be with us here tonight. I'm sure, I'm sure that the good people of will be the first to appreciate the great sacrifice made on their behalf. Lord Mayor, I would be the last person to criticise either Councillors or offices who attempt to represent this district on foreign shores, whenever and wherever such trips are perfectly legitimate. Whenever and wherever they result in a lasting benefit to the whole of our district. I would find it difficult, for example, to criticise the three visits made by Councillors and officers to Brussels. It would be naive for anyone to suggest that politicians in should not be seeking to gain the maximum advantage from the European Community. Indeed, in recent years has done rather well out of its visits to Brussels by both politicians and officers. The millions of pounds this district has been able to secure through I D O is testimony to this, despite the rather luke warm support received at the time from the Labour group. If Councillor as a director himself, or through senior Council officers, had bothered to keep the oppo opposition party fully informed of his visits, he may well have found us, perhaps to his surprise, in full agreement and support. But politicians generally have very suspicious minds and when things are kept hidden from them they tend to want to know why. They tend to ask questions in t in an attempt to find out what is going on. Leaving the visits to Brussels aside, for I assume that these were entirely legitimate, what do we find when we start to unravel the mysterious secrecy surrounding the civic junkets to far off lands? We find three trips, all of a rather dubious nature, to attend what are officially described as Conferences on European co-operation. One to Prague in Czechoslovakia, a second to Florence in Italy and a third to Olympus in Greece, all at a total cost of five thousand to local tax payers. But why, and the people of this district have a legitimate right to ask, why did it take three people to represent in Czechoslovakia? And why did the air fares to Florence total in excess of six hundred pounds each? Didn't Councillor travel tourist class? And it does not end there. What is the assembly of Eurip European unity policies and regions and why was it necessary to send two representatives to Portugal to attend at a cost of over one thousand five hundred. But perhaps, my Lord Mayor, most intriguing of all, what exactly did the people of Estonia, let alone the people of, gain from the visit by Councillor, who is said to have undertook an economic and social audit of that country? came to, asked for a briefing on what we did in Estonia and then said, can we give you seventy thousand pounds so you can spend on projects in Estonia, so they got seventy thousand pounds off your Government. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] One two nine. Do I take it Councillor that they would not have received it without your visit? I would have thought, Lord Mayor, that a country like Estonia currently has enough problems of its own without Councillor but at least the people of Estonia are not stupid. They made sure that the two thousand six hundred and seventy pounds cost of Councillor was fully met by the long suffering tax payers of. At a total cost to local Charge payers of around twenty thousand, some people may think such civic junketing has been terribly excessive but the truth is, Lord Mayor, that this is just the tip of the iceberg. This is after only eighteen months of Labour control and is rapidly becoming the of the North. How long will it be before our Labour Councillors are spending a quarter of a million on trips abroad, as in? The controlling group is blatantly guilty of deserting its proper role, the Government of our district. At a time when we have child prostitution in our child children's homes, Labour Councillors are entertaining themselves to sun sand and sangria in exotic foreign locations and in conclusion I would like to make just one comment, that this episode brings to mind a famous quotation in circles. It was made famous by the then Labour education chairman who said, and I quote, I am a spendthrift, I love to spend the rate payers' money. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor My Lord Mayor I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move Lord Mayor. Seconded All in favour? [tape breaks here] Those against? [tape breaks here] That is passed by forty six votes to twenty five. [tape breaks here] Those against? [tape breaks here] Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Those against? Mhm? [whispering] carried forty eight to twenty two [] That is carried, forty eight votes for, twenty six against. We'll move on to the final white paper motion on regionalisation. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. [tape breaks here] Call upon Councillor to move amendment O standing in his name. Seconded? Call upon Councillor to move amendment P standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? I move that it be dealt with at this meeting my Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Those in favour? Agreed? Councillor The Council my Lord Mayor My Lord Mayor, I'm really going to enjoy this one. As somebody who is still under thirty and er like my good friend Mister young enough to have a positive approach to Europe, I am pleasantly surprised that the people opposite are gonna make my job a lot easier because the narrowness and the anti-diluvian attitudes that we see on the benches opposite explain why, in the last Euro elections, the Labour Party won a resounding victory on the issue of Europe. Now I'm making a very strong argument in this motion, as is the group, for regionalisation. The reason we want regionalisation is that we are the only country within the European Community as it now stands, bar Luxembourg and Ireland, not to have regional Government, regional co-ordination of our economic policies and a proper role for the regions to link across Europe. But had done brilliantly. We have got over fifty million, sixty million, pounds worth of grant and aid out of Europe. But as we look forward into Europe post 1993 we have industries in this city that will be vulnerable. We have a need for regional economic initiatives and what help do we get from the British Government, right? We don't get any help at all. If we'd had half the help from British Government for crumbling schools we've had from Europe, we'd have had a lot more done. There is up and down this country a crisis in the regions that is exacerbated by the British Government over additionality. It's a long a complicated issue but it's got to such a head that the complete scheme for regenerating the and the very badly affected coal fields in is being stopped. The commission is stopping it because the British Government will not make up its mind on whether it's gonna back the money. It's like the little boy who's got a toy, he don't wanna share it, don't wanna share it, if forced to share it, he'll smash it rather than let somebody else have a go with it. Now I was one of those people that represented this city at Florence. I represented this city at Florence at the cost of two days' leave, and having my pocket picked at the station Yes, oh absolutely, it's not all great fun. But I'll tell you what the Conference it about. You bozos don't seem to realise it but if we hadn't been there at that Florence Conference, would not be in the leading position it currently holds with the commission to guarantee further funds and to create a positive role for Britain in Europe with the commission to wuk look at the issues that are gonna come up in 1993. And the private sector are very happy for us to do that. We have the best policies to get this across, and the work that we've done with and the European Commission, and we want to democratise that, is very positive. And to hear members opposite talking about the dead hand of bureaucracy and all these Tebbitite notions that oh Europe, y'know, I mean, y'know, we're going all the way back to ancient history here. I mean, what help has the British Government given us for preparing for 1992? British Rail, British Rail, that institution we all know and love. They have wasted, because of the Government, four hundred million pounds building a station at Waterloo that isn't even going to be used because of your Government. That money could have electrified railways that would've given industry a chance to get its goods into Europe. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] University. One of the reasons we've got a very good language link is the language univer courses that the University did in the East in the European department, the Baltic Studies. It's been cut again, as a result of your Government's policies, so the technology and the support that we need to go into Europe to win in Europe to help industry is being strangled once again by your Government. So if we look at the positive effects of Europe. If we look at regional Governments across Europe that don't have to go cap in hand every time to some deadbeat in White Hall, right, they go straight to Europe and they network across Europe and they exchange ideas and things happen. What we have to do in, and we've done it very well, and it's a massive tribute to the quality of staff that we've had working on this, that we've done this. We can do one hell of a lot more if the whole of is combined in Europe and fighting it's corner because as sure as hell that golden triangle in the South East is not gonna give us a slice of the action unless we take it, and for the members opposite to site their with their ancient out-dated ideas of Liberalism, right? The single market needs the Social Charter, the Labour Group backs the Social p Charter, the Labour Group is ready for 1993 and the sooner you lot get out of the way and let us get on with it, the better. [speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping] [speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] I'm very glad to be having this debate as the last Council meeting we er put a motion down on P R which the Labour Group refused to discuss, and Councillor in the summer ma put some release out said he was in favour of it. So I'm actually glad that this is one that you're actually prepared to discuss. Now people have been looking at this for a long time. It may or not surprise you that there is already an element of regional Government actually in the U K already and since development is the issue that the Labour Group has raised, we'll take the work of the Development Association, which I was involved in in the mid eighties and which actually does some good work to actually bring industry actually to this region. And that is a regional body that's been very successful. Nobody can argue it. Under a Labour chairman Under a Labour chairman who's who's got a nice job somewhere else now, I understand. It's not just about development, there's also a regional bureaucracy actually already in the U K and I'll give you two examples. There's a large Department of the Environment office in. If we want to define where our urban programme areas are, we c we find it very difficult to set them ourselves. It's not an elected person in who actually sets them cos although he might present, Heseltine doesn't know that well. There's an unelected civil servant in who has a large element in deciding where they are, and that is wrong. That sort of decision should be under some sort of democratic decision making ability. Counc tonight it was mentioned the actual the work of the Regional Health Authority and, again, I worked for the Regional Health Authority a long time ago. Er and it is actually doing a useful job. But who actually appoints people to the Regional Health Authority? Do people y do actually local people in actually pe appoint people to the Regional Health Authority? There is another regional body that should be under democratic control, local democratic control. But so I mean I think the case for Regional Government is definitely there and I'm surprised by Councillor, I'm surprised that you said your group isn't seeing it. They are actually a long way behind the rest of Europe. This is really happening in the rest of Europe. There's gonna be a lot of changes at the end of this century, the beginning of next century in Europe and if we're not with them then we're gonna be left behind. Now I know I've actually seen the paper that the Labour Party is actually putting out in discussion documents on regional policy and it's very good. It's been a long time coming but I'm glad you got there eventually. But the person in charge of it is Roy Hattersley. Now, what's Roy Hattersley's record of regional decision making? Well, the last time he was in, he actually went to a group of people who were determined to make their decision, were determined what their decision was. He refused to listen to it, influence his own decision. If you haven't guessed, the last time he was in was in and he doesn't trust folk to actually select Parliamentary candidates. Now the effect is that if you make a decision from London, if you impose a decision from London, the people you impose that decision on are very very demoralised. And the Labour Party in is very demoralised. And what was a twenty thousand majority has cut massively, massively. It will be seen as a marginal after this. The only question is, who will he put up next time? Now, I mean the emphasis is on development. I'm not quite sure the Labour Party's picked that out and I may be unfair to them in s it's not enough if you only see a regional policy d just development and economic led. Somebody mentioned somebody, a name from the past tonight, who would be very proud of this, very proud of this statement, would agree, would agree with it fully. David Owen would agree fully with this statement which surpri wsh which does surprise me but then may y'know then may be not. The Labour Party's changed a lot of it's policies already so maybe they're getting close to David Owen, I don't know. I do take on, I do take on one point that the Conservatives have begun to raise to make in their in their motion which what we don't want is another heavy tier of bur bureaucracy. And wh y'know we thought about this for a y'know a long time t and what we do want is a thin tier of bureaucracy. The one thing in the Labour document, and this is in the statement Labour made, I mean they're actually talking about paid Councillors on on a Regional Authority, which is a y'know which is would be very unpopular with the public but erm. A developing developing regional democracy is erm is a difficult thing to get to get across and it's one of those things that Liberal Democrats talk away for hours about at their Conferences. The Labour Party talk about the class war, presumably, or whatever. The Tories th the Tories talk about hating the Unions or whatever. Liberal Democrats actually get in corners and say we hate Government, y'know, what can we do to get po power away from London? And I tell you just, what I just wanna do, is give you one one one thought which is in our motion. The difficulty will be in getting regional policy through and in some areas of the country do not have natural regions. Some areas of England do not have natural regions. If you can tell me which region Hertfordshire is in, or Berkshire is in, I will find somebody else who can tell you it's in a different region. And so there needs to be a way forward to break this argument. The way that we've found it in this this year's Liberal Democrat Conference was to actually put forward the suggestion that Regional Government could be brought in in a flexible sense. You don't need a Regional Authority all the way across the country all at once and you can actually bring a Regional Authority in, and it's certainly that Scotland should have its own Parliament. You could then bring in Regional Authorities with less power for the North West, the North East and to Yorkshire and Humberside and I do hope you'll actually join me in supporting our motion for an independent. Finally, the the best people to implement Liberal Democrat policies are Liberal Democrats. Thank you. [tape breaks here] Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] vague and woolly. As a textile man I don't mind woolliness too much but I do object to vagueness because this motion is so vague that it can mean as much as you want it to mean while, at the same time, it says to little as to leave an escape route for it's supporters. It produces no facts, no economic forecasts to substantiate it's ideas, if you can call them ideas. It merely hints that the world will be a better place if we support it because the unquantified benefits which will flow from it will put us on a level with Germany and France, assuming of course that we wish to be on a level with Germany and France. The motion speaks of regions and regionalisations. The Labour Party have committed themselves to establishing Regional Government, that is if Britain decided to commit suicide at the next election. They say that if they create Regional Government they will do so at the expense of National Government and not Local Government, but that isn't true because Mister has already said that erm strategic services such as passenger transport will b will be handed over to regions and if that goes obviously fire, police and strategic planning will be lost to us. The theory is also that the regions might be able to bypass the National Government and deal directly with regions of Europe. Well, I can understand the Labour Group wishing to bypass National Government if that Government were headed by Mister Kinnock, but without that particular incentive I don't think that international negotiations should be taken by any organisation outside National Government, otherwise we'd cease to be a nation. here here The Labour Group often speak in general terms of gross strategic overviews of the economy of these regions and we know from experience what that means

[speaker001:] My name is Les, I work for Wiltshire County Council. What follows is a meeting of the Wiltshire County Council's Policy and Resources Committee held on Tuesday twenty-fifth January 1994. [Cole:] on the agenda is membership changes. Since the last meeting the following have ceased to be members of this committee. Mr, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mr, and have been replaced by Mr, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mrs. Membership of the committee today is therefore Mr, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mr, Mrs, Miss, Miss, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mr, Mr, Colonel, Mrs, Mrs, Mr, Mr, Mr, Mr, Mrs, Mr, Mr. Second item on the agenda is election of chairman could I have nominations please. [speaker003:] Mr [Cole:] Is there a seconder for Mr? Are there any other nominations? Mr is elected chairman [speaker001:] [whispering] yeah, look yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah [] [Coleman:] The next item is the election of vice chairman... erm, do you wish to defer this item? anybody not?... That is deferred. Next item is apologies [speaker001:] no apologies [Coleman:] Item five chairman's announcement, there are two. Number one is British National Corpus, members will have received a letter from the chief executive enclosing details about the British National Corpus, the B N C have sought permission to tape the Wiltshire County Council's Committee meeting, and it was suggested to them and they have agreed to tape today's proceedings. I hope no member objects to the recordings, but if anyone does the recording will not take place. Is everyone agreeable to the recording of today's proceedings? [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] Are there any against? That is agreed. Second announcement is the Victoria county history exhibition, I wish to bring to members attention... bring members attention to the Victoria county history exhibition currently taking place in the old county hall foyer. I hope members will find time to visit this exhibition which is on today, tomorrow and Thursday. Item six attendance of non- members of the committee. [speaker001:] Mr in respect of item seventeen the environmental strategy [Coleman:] Thank you.... Item seven, members allowances, cash limits.... erm I'll like to deal with this in a if possible in a number of separate motions so that we can deal with the various bits of work that need to be done, but I'll call Mr first [Small:] Thank you chair, erm, in likelihood that I, I mean you may wish to these separately as well but I'll group wish to see, is to, a is to approve an extension of the maximum aggregate by five per cent, b officers continue to monitor expenditure reporting to group leaders monthly and c officers and group leaders look into the allowance scheme to see if any suitable alterations need to be made. [Coleman:] Yes, erm, I had in mind that, is there a seconder to that?... my own view is that erm, and that goes for most of the way for dealing with the problem, but I think it would be appropriate for this committee to make it clear that erm, any extension of the maximum aggregate for the current financial year will be met by an appropriate reduction or a corresponding reduction in the expenditure for ninety four ninety five, erm and I'm not certain that that's absolutely clear to the public or indeed to all members of [Small:] Chair [Coleman:] as you say it is legally required [Small:] I mean if, if, if, if the principal of the five per cent is acceptable then if you wish to qualify the being put in from the words you said then that is acceptable by the labour group. [Coleman:] Okay, but I just wanted to go on to say that I think in reviewing how the budget may be brought more closely under control in the coming year, officers will need to look at the erm size of the committees because we are working with committees at the moment that are larger than those committees which used to exist when this year's budget was set and that has had some impact and we need to have the implications of any change of committee size whether that might affect the budget, how that would affect the budget, also whether there is any potential for reducing the number of committees further and also whether the rates might be changed, I particularly would like officers to report on what, whether there would be any significant saving from er setting the rates at the round figures they were at a couple of years ago erm [speaker001:] [cough] [Coleman:] Ten pound and twenty pound and twenty-five pound which apart from anything else I found easier to remember when filling out a form, but I think that may think it's not worth doing. I think the most important thing is to make clear, I'm hoping to make clear somewhere that next year this council will have a members allowance budget which is one and a half percent more than this year, at the maximum, and it may not even have that I'm not certain that we've agreed that with the policy committee, I don't know if anybody knows if we have [speaker001:] Yes [Coleman:] We have, well I would erm, let's see how do we do this, we've got a motion on the floor, erm, anybody else? Mr [Chalk:] Chairman I have an amendment to that motion, because, because I believe it's important that we start to identify a lot of councils publish at the end of the year for public consumption a list of the allowances drawn by members, and I think that would be very useful and I would make, as an amendment, I would, would add to the proposal put by Mr that we call for a report to be pu er, to be presented to us of the amounts of allowances drawn by members, each member [Coleman:] would you accept that, that should be for the financial year? [Chalk:] More than happy chairman that, that, that it should be that Can I, can I, If I, If there's a second can I speak to my [speaker001:] I view with considerable concern erm, what has happened since May, in, in the field of allowances. Over the last few years the members allowances have been reduced, er, er have been underspent quite considerably on the amount that's been allowed. Each year the amount has gone up by inflation, and yet we see something approaching thirty thousand underspent on previous years, and here we are looking in the first year of this council to a, a, at least a five percent overspend and er, I wonder if we've erm, excluded the time when there weren't many meetings at the beginning if we wouldn't have seen a considerably larger overspend. I'm, in my own mind, I'm sure this is due to a proliferation of working parties, extra committee meetings a,a, and seminars, and I personally think it's typical of when your party get anywhere near control that there is always more talking and less action, but I do believe that we,we, we're, we are not looking good in the eyes of the public in this overspending of our own allowances. I think you've got to do something drastic, at the end of last year a considerable number of working parties and committees were actually reduced or eliminated, and I look at education and I look at the sub- committees of education, they've all been replaced by working parties now that meet more and more regularly. We can't go on paying ourselves that sort of money, we can't go on, and Mr I know in a minute we'll talk about the number of people who attend committee meetings erm and sit in on them, and that's increased considerably, erm, so I think it's important that we do get down to this problem, we grasp the nettle, and I, I believe that will mean that we start to look seriously at reducing the number of times members come and talk here, and perhaps we let the officers get on with the action that they should be getting on with Thank you chairman, erm, I've heard what Mr said then I think it is worth reminding ourselves that a significant number of members of this council are new to this council and it's therefore quite right and proper that in the first year of the business of this council that there should be a significant number of seminars and briefings to enable members to fully acquaint themselves with the business of the council the working of the er, operations of this council so that we can in fact make informed decisions er in the future. I entirely accept that if er, four years on we were still doing the same thing that then they'd be er, some erm, requirement for er, cutting back but I think it is also worth reminding ourselves that due to the action of this conservative government in er, forcing the local government review, er, we are facing the spectre er, of an additional full meeting of this council, and indeed we have had to er, respond to that government initiative. So it's by no means only er, arising from the erm, need to get on with the business of the council, some of the work that we're facing at the present moment has been forced on us er, through no fault of our own because of Government action. Thank you chairman, I, I second er 's motion, erm... trying to be not political about this I got some figures from the er county council which indicate that from the first of April ninety-two to the thirty-first of December ninety-two eighty-six members attended committee meetings of which they were not members. From the first of April ninety-three to the thirty-first of December ninety-three, that figure is a hundred and sixty-five, so therefore it, it, it's doubled in effect. Now if you assume that they... were paid somewhere between a half-day allowance and a full-day allowance, you're probably looking at somewhere up towards fifteen hundred pounds. Now there are occasions where members legitimately need to attend committees to speak to something in which they have an interest... but the difficulty is, that in the past when we had permanent chairman, a member who wanted to attend the meeting had to ask the permission of that permanent chairman and there are occasions when that permanent chairman thought, well, there is no need for that member to attend and he has said no. In the present situation, the officers find themselves in a very difficult position, I cannot imagine an officer saying no to a member and this is what has happened... if we run out of money, then the very thing that we are seeking to do, in other words to implement the democratic process to allow people to come to meetings and speak will go by the way, and I can remember some time ago when I was a new member on here saying I would be prepared to attend property sub-committee briefings as a deputy and not be paid and I was very smartly brought up by a friend in the labour group who said that's all right for you, you can afford it, but it's not alright for some of us 'cause we can't. and the difficulty is if we run out of money and we either have to stop the allowances or we have to slash the allowances, yeah, knows who it was, we have to slash the allowances, then legitimately people will be able to say that the democratic process is being stifled because they are not going to be allowed to go to meetings, and therefore, I think that... situations whereby a member attends to speak to a, an item, a specific item and then stays on for a double length meetings and claims double length allowances that sort of thing has got to be stopped, and also members attending just to nod approval at something that has happened that they've been associated with, that should stop, if they want to come they should come at their own expense. But if we're not careful, the real people, the real people who should be are going to be the losers, because they would not be able to draw the attendance allowance which they need to attend. So, I mean what I'm saying is that I think we should have a league table if you like of, of attendances, I, I recognise that that may not be popular, but I think it's going to be one way of sorting out those people who attend every opportunity, and sometimes just to pat an officer on the back. This is not something that attendances allowance should be, should be used to pay for, and I think that unless we look at it very carefully indeed, and we perhaps get around to having a proper chairman for each committee instead of this sort of er, bugginses chart er, we're going to be faced with, with lots of difficulties. I wish you two lots over there would get your act together so that people who chair the meetings were of the right calibre for a chairman and not just because it was their turn. Hear hear [Coleman:] Yes, let's not open up the debate about chairmanship of meetings er, got a couple more people [Pager:] Yes, thank you chairman. Obviously one of the er, critical things is actually reduce the er, length of time at meetings, er, with that in mind I'll be very quick. [speaker001:] unclear [Pager:] As I say when you become a councillor you do not do it for money, I mean I think probably to be a better reason to become a councillor these days. It affects your job, your job prospects, your family life and the hidden costs, such as letters, telephone calls leaflets and the rest of it, you do not do it for money. You seem to be sort of trying to encourage a guilt complex by this, this idea put forward by the conservatives, which is not the case, people should not feel guilty in trying to do the benefit that they can to benefit the people of Wiltshire. And I also don't think that there's any need for this extra recommendation in most commonwave that a question, and that is to actually find out the expenses claim by individuals. written question or shall we give them a written answer? There's no need to actually to put it down as a recommendation that stays forever more, there's just no need for it. The other things I'd like to put forward is the things that Mr actually put forward, the idea of reducing committee sizes, reducing committee numbers. Perhaps maybe a cut off time for when a meeting should finish, which I think we'd all dearly love, maybe that very common in business, maybe it's about time we put it into council life as well, so those of progress, not trying to make people feel guilty but trying to serve the people they represent. [Coleman:] Mr [Okinson:] Mr chair. Erm, I seem to find myself in this committee in a minority of one. It's a little like listening to those debates in parliament where parliament vote themselves extra salaries and I feel very uncomfortable in this process, I thought I might be coming here this morning to disagree with my own group, or those members of them that don't agree with me, perhaps joined with the conservatives in opposing this motion, but I find in fact that everybody is saying oh let's put up the er, the heading, I feel very uncomfortable with this having spent six months in the budget review, criticising officers up hill and down dale every time that they exceeded their budget, having told them that either they balance their budget or that they came in next year with a budget with no more than a one and a half percent increase, or their successors would be doing it for us. I feel very uncomfortable therefore, to sit in a room full of members, sitting here proposing to add five percent to the limit for members allowances, simply because we've been unable to control our own behaviour, and to come in within that, I think it's a very poor example, and it's an example that I'm not prepared to set. I am going to vote against the motion, I'm disappointed with the liberal group not come in with a more constructive amendment or even a proposal, as I would say asked you to do. I'm even more disappointed in the conservatives, for not opposing it, I don't object to their list of members being published, I don't see that that would do any harm, as far as I'm concerned, every employee could have their wages printed up on the wall. We are elected by the public to do a job and we shouldn't be ashamed of the amount of money that we're paid for it, and what I would say is, that no manifesto in May's election said we were going to come here and vote for more money for members, nobody put on their leaflets, vote for me and I will raise members allowances by five percent in the coming year, I didn't and I won't support that, and you will argue, perhaps some of you that that's not really what we're doing, but it look's like it, doesn't it? And I think it's close enough to looking like it that the public may believe it, and I hope the public won't believe it, but certainly I'm not prepared to allow them to think it of me, and therefore I will vote against the motion. [Coleman:] Okay, Mr [Caplan:] Thank you Mr chairman, just one point Mr, we're not voting ourselves five percent more, we're taking five percent off next year's allowance and putting it to this one so it's a negative rollover, so we're actually spending some of next year's money this year. The point I'm going to make is that erm, if we aren't going to get through the year and we're all going to have to take a percentage of our March allowances because the money's run out and we're cash limited even if we give ourselves five percent extra, erm, could I get an assurance from the officers that the people that haven't put in their forms will get a note to remind them to do so, so that everybody is in there, you won't suddenly find that because you haven't had your claim form in by the fourteenth you're gonna get nothing and everybody else is gonna get something. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] Thank you, I think actually we've been debating Mr 's amendment which seems to have widespread approval and I was ready to put that to the vote. Mr [Small:] I was just going to settle up to you, that was it. I think that just a few points that needs to be made. First of all I think at the end of the day that we all know a democracy never comes cheap, it's erm, there are cheaper alternatives for administering decisions, but erm, but dictatorship doesn't go well and therefore democracy will never come cheap. I do agree that there are some particular areas this year that are for concern. There has been, I think has put it adequately very well, that there are members who've turned up really for no real reason but to speak on a minor item which members of their group could've taken on their behalf, and therefore erm, I, I do support that we need to look at that particular issue, and I think that can be dealt with under the present chairs arrange arrangement without having to have permanent chairs. I also support the proposal to have a list published, I know who's gonna be top of the list, it's possibly going to be me, and I'm not ashamed of that so erm, let's go ahead and do it, 'cause it is public money, and the public have a right to know where that money's going, so I'm not ashamed of that. I think that also that said to me at the point that there is, people need to er, be paid attendance because otherwise you deny people the opportunity to be able to stand for council,there, otherwise you are going to end up with those that are either rich or retired as the only people who can attend a council which, and therefore we must remember that and make sure those who want to have the opportunity to participate in local government are actually compensated for their, for their erm, for their work. [Coleman:] Okay, taking a vote on Mr 's amendment, which is to ask officers to publish a list of allowances claimed, I think that's all allowances, but not presum, not necess, and including travel and subsistence. Okay, not travel. For the years ninety-one two, ninety-two-three, ninety-three- four Those in favour of that amendment please show....., and the against? And that is carried, before taking the motion amendment which I hope will financial control which is that the of financial services shall have no discretion to accept claims for the financial year ninety-three ninety-four, submitted after the thirtieth of June nineteen-ninety- four, that effectively means that that two month rule which he does have discretion on he will not have in the case of late claims in this financial year, that means we'll know exactly what the figures are, by the thirtieth of June. Can I put that, does anybody want to debate that? [speaker010:] I thought actually we had a standing order already that claims had to be in within a certain time limit [speaker001:] yes, yes [speaker010:] and I believe that, that three months is the time limit [speaker001:] Two months Two months but he had discretion [speaker010:] well, oh I see you're removing the discretion,ke [Coleman:] In this particular case we're removing that discretion to try and tie the year down. [speaker010:] Right, well, well debated, [Coleman:] do you want to speak on that? [speaker001:] Yes I would if I may. Can I just reassure Mr that if actually we were not, er, if we were discussing an increase in members allowances then I would be fair square with him. We're in a position where we're going to borrow a bit from next year, that actually puts the pressure on as I see it's about nine or ten thousand extra this year, the allowance is about a hundred and eighty thousand, the total, erm, we're adding nine or ten thousand to that, we're taking it off it for next year, so we've already got ourselves something like an eighteen to twenty thousand reduction in members allowances next year so the pressure is on to resolve the problem, and er, perhaps Mr might feel that actually that extra pressure might make us resolve it. [Small:] I got the dates wrong, it's the thirtieth of may that's two months after the end, so the amendment I'm moving Thank you, er, Mr [Okinson:] On the amendment, on the amendment, as you're seeking to amend standing orders, is this committee able to do that?... [Small:] I think the particular point about the two month rule which may be extended at the discretion of the director, which obvious taking his discretion away, I don't think that's a standing order [speaker001:] Yeah, I, I don't think it's a standing order sir, I think its part of erm, I'm just trying to find it, it's part of the member's allowances, and this committee is charged with dealing with member's allowances. [Coleman:] Can I put that to the vote? say aye [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] Well now, I think and I think we may I would say that erm, I improving the qualified budget as well, but there's no doubt, I put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] and the against . Agenda item eight Mr 's appointment to the sub-committee of the West regional association with deaf, for the deaf, should be an approved duty for the payment of travelling and subsistence allowances only. On the grounds that this is erm, now appropriately remote from the county council's work. Mr. [Cole:] Yes chairman, I think that before you phrased that motion you might have enquired as to the circumstances of this, and, and everything that surrounds it. Er, it is not just an additional committee, on the part of the West region, it is in fact the total reorganisation of a number of meetings, and getting down to a far more business-like thing. Erm, in the past, the constitution of the West region association has allowed for it's council to meet twice a year, one of those was an A G M, and for an executive committee to meet four times a year. The representation is three people per authority, it could be three members, sometimes it's two members and an officer. Very few counties apart from Wiltshire have ever actually sent three. Most of those have attended at an A G M once a year. The membership of an executive, has been one member from each county. I've served on that one, and the whole business of the organisation has generally speaking been run by the executive and not by a full council. Therefore there's been no real problem on this one as far as allowances. That has now decided that it will have one meeting of it's council a year which will be it's A G M, it has not for the moment elected an executive committee. It has put in it's place, a, er a general purposes and finance sub- committee, this is this one referred to, it has not made allowances for who shall serve on it per county, all it did, it called it together very quickly, and to cut costs to authorities, it's based the meetings in Bristol instead of Exeter, and it was suggested by the chairman of W R A D, that perhaps any volunteers coming onto it, erm, would in fact come from the surrounding counties. Now, the, the membership of this particular, er, special purposes committee if you like, erm is the core officers and three other members, and they called for volunteers, and one came from Avon, one came from Dorset, put his name forward from Wiltshire. Now I am one of the officers on there which gives two members from Wiltshire a seat on this particular committee. However, we have no executive committee, and we have only one other meeting a year, erm, if you, I, I would like you to suggest that if you accept this restructuring of er, the organisation, and the fact that the members will not be attending other meetings during the year, you might see fit to allow the attendance allowance on this particular sub-committee. [Coleman:] Thank you, er Mr that was, was quite, erm, was quite informative, very. I just wanted to check what the position of the old executive committee of the W R A D which been appointed, whether that was in fact erm, something that qualified for a full allowance. Miss [speaker001:] Yeah, but, I mean I was just, erm, I found that very informative as well, I was very disappointed that if that much money er, information was available that we were not given it as members, because it would have made decision making far more sensible, but erm, [Cole:] I as an amendment as I am involved [LAUGHTER] in the attendance allowance []. er, I must, I always claim the attendance allowance when it has been as executive, as I've been the one member from Wiltshire attending. Whenever there's been officers get together, then W R A D itself paid for my travelling expenses and I have never claimed that from the authority, as I didn't believe that was proper. But as the organisation has seen to be when it meets generally speaking, the council and the executive are one and the same dealing with exactly the same business, I've considered it a meeting of the organisation, and the organisation now basically is going to be the seven sub-committee plus an Annual General Meeting of it's full council. [Coleman:] Miss [speaker001:] Well, I mean, I think, er from, I mean certainly I don't know how you feel chairman, but my view of this has changed if what Mr says is correct, then it seems that this seems, that this is the, the basic sort of day to day decision making erm, group, erm, and far more central to the purposes of W R A D than previously appeared, and there would seem to me therefore to be some case of paying an attendance allowance or else erm, deferring the decision erm, until we have even more information, but I think, if it really is the, the, the sort of decision making bit then attendance allowance ought to be paid. [Coleman:] Who seconds [speaker001:] I'm, I'm happy to second [Coleman:] members please show... and the against. The members say aye [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] against... [speaker001:] attendance allowances for members, I would move that er, a scheme be commenced from the first of April ninety-four, and that the wording attached to the paper, be altered in two respects, in place of the phrase is a person over sixty-nine years of age, the words is an elderly person, and more significantly at the end of paragraph four, and normally lives with a member as part of the member's family and be able to be left at th, be unable to be left unsupervised, be added, And that er, power to delegate a director of financial to amend the rates of allowances from time to time rates of attendance allowance for members, and that the scheme be met from the overall member's allowance to which we recently referring. [Coleman:] Okay, Miss [speaker001:] Erm, yes, well I'm very glad you've moved the amendments about the scheme. I don't quite know what's, what happened, because I remember very well amending these details the last time it came to policy and resources, and that was agreed, because the changes you have made use the working, wording of the Thamesdown scheme, it seems to me far better, erm, as you have moved it, because er, very many people who are elderly, who are sixty-nine years or more or less don't need any supervision at all. Erm, indeed some eighty ninety year olds don't need any supervision, on the other hand some people in their early sixties may need to be looked after, and, you know, I don't fancy the idea of anybody being able to claim allowances because they've fit granny, erm, on the other hand anybody who needs to ought to be able to, and I think this wording secures that. Thank you chairman. Erm, I, I shall oppose er, your motion erm, on on two grounds. Erm, firstly, we are looking at carers for employees, and we're unlikely to come up with very much, because we haven't got much money to do it. And yet we are seeing as members, coming back to Mr 's point, making a, setting an example which is opposite to that which we force on our employees. And the other one is financial. If members allowances are a hundred and eighty thousand this year which is somewhere around there, Mr may correct me but I think I'm not too far out, we've already upped those this year to a hundred and eighty- nine, so next year there'll be a hundred and seventy-one and the thirteen thousand cost of this will reduce it to a hundred and fifty-eight... I actually don't think that is possible, we can't afford it within the terms of of the present set up, unless someone's going to dramatically reduce the length and the number of meetings in this council, which I think is highly unlikely, I think we've got to set a good example to our employees, I think that this would give completely the wrong message. We're looking after ourselves, er, but we're not prepared to look after them, and, I'm afraid I have to oppose it. I'll just make a humorous point, I've got a sick dog, but I see that isn't er, covered. [Coleman:] Yeah, well, [cough], Mr. [speaker003:] What point in having, I suppose it's my fault, I should have read these erm, bits added to it more carefully earlier, but it doesn't seem to have anything in their about anybody who is actually claiming a carer's allowance from looking after somebody at the time, and whether we should have a phrase in there that it doesn't include anybody that is collecting from the D S S S or anything else for a carer's allowance anyway, because you don't want to double pay anybody. [Coleman:] Mr [Small:] Thank you chair. I'm slightly disappointed in erm, 's attitude, especially his last comment, even though I'm sorry to hear that he's got a sick dog at the moment. Erm, I know that for many, that people will find this very helpful. I believe there's two aspects to this. There's the firstly that of young children, and it's something that I remember putting a motion to in the last administration about a creche or whatever or looking into this facility, in the fact of erm, trying to encourage more people with young families to erm, actually get involved in local government and politics. But I think there's also the other end of the scale which is, which is what, you've slightly amended this year, is the fact of elderly people erm, I know recently that myself have gone through the fact of my gran had er, was going through a very sick period, and if she'd have come back home, it would have been very difficult for me to have had to look after her at the same time as trying to attend my council duties, and this would have been the same for my dad, and the additional income which this would have brought, to have paid someone to be able to look after her whilst we were at council meetings, and you can remember that these meetings sometimes go on, you can say well, this meeting should be over by one o'clock then it goes on till three o'clock or whatever, and then peop, the problems mount up for that person left on their own, and I think that those things have to be taken into consideration, and I believe that this is the first step forward in trying to recognise that people have responsibilities outside of the council chamber. [Coleman:] Thank you, Mr Thank you very much Mr chairman, I would like to endorse what Mr has said, erm, I assume that this carer's allowance is aimed primarily er, at er, women with dependant children. Erm, and I feel very strongly, and I urge members to consider that we should support this as a matter of principle, to help er, that group of our society, I me, I was going to suggest an amendment that we ask for the average age of this council erm, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] to be published along with the expense claims? [] [Coleman:] Yes, to be published along with the expense claims. Although joking apart I urge members to support this on principle, I think we should put this in and then it will have to be considered next year, how, where the money will, will come from, and I think that we should establish it that married women with dependant children will get some allowance to help them to stand and represent their communities. Thank you. Sorry, I'd better re,re, er remove the word married, women with dependent children should be helped to represent their communities. Thank you. Yes, I'd p, I would personally prefer the word people or [LAUGHTER] parents [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Coleman:] No, I, I, I, just, just a cover note, I think it's quite true that this is one of the small steps one can make to make it a little bit more possible for people with dependents to take a full part in local government, and the majority of the people who are excluded at the moment are in practise erm, women with dependent children, but there are many other people including men, and including people with dependent elderly relatives, and I think we need to make it the rule rather than the exception that local government has a carer's allowance scheme. I'm confident that the scheme won't cost anything like as much as the estimate, but I'm, I'm sure it's right that it's been, having having done some background work to see how many people might claim it I'm confident that that we've erred on the safe side here by a substantial amount, and that's why I'm sure it can be met from the overall budget. But I would agree with Mr, that it does add a further pressure, it means we have to have a real review of erm, how we pay allowances in order to stay within our budget limit, which I think is two hundred and two thousand for the current year, and erm, a little bit more for next year, according to the previous paper. Did you want to come in Mr? [Small:] Thank you chairman. Erm, I, I wanted to pick up the point Mrs said, I, I don't think this will necessarily this will be one of those allowances which people will er, claim on a regular basis. Er, I am mindful chairman that I embarrassed you acutely at the end of education meeting on [LAUGHTER] Friday, erm, [] and I know that I, I have a circumstance coming up in February, where I have a child who is unexpectedly on a training day, erm, on a day where I actually have two meetings of this council, now either I get substituted, or we arrange for a one off carer situation. Now I'm not for a mom, I'm not for a moment suggesting that it's something that would be picked up on a regular basis, but I think it does mean, as you rightly say, that er, if, if, if such a procedure does arise then I'm conscious that I'm in a one off situation, I know there's at least one of our colleagues on our benches who has this on, with children on a more regular basis. Erm, I I think we will encourage er, people with dependants to play a more active role in the er, business of this council and in, I think it is something that is worth er, considering and it is worth carrying forward. I, I'm very sad to learn that the committee may not fee, feel quite so constrained to assist er, employees. I think er, we need to er, look at this issue of carers far more rigorously, and I'm very sad that the government, having made a great play about back to basics and er, encouraging family values, erm, are not in fact prepared er, to do something to er, alleviate unemployment by encouraging employers to make adequate provision to ensure that people with dependants can actually work. [Coleman:] Okay, I'll put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show,... and the against. That is carried. [paper rustling] Nine one, supplementary capital estimates of the magistrates court, [speaker001:] [cough] [Coleman:] letter circulated this morning from officers to amend the figure, I think all members should have had that... and I will move that a capital supplementary estimate of fifty-five thousand and four pounds... be approved for expenditure on the magistrate's court services described in the report and in the letter circulated this morning. [speaker001:] Chairman you've got to allow me because by the time I've finished you won't be able to stop me, er, but I mean if there's a lot of money floating about in this area then I think that er, some committee or other should be looking at the... the refurbishment of the courts in Devizes which are a disgrace, and partly the fault of this council when th they were allowed to get into such a state, and I mean at some stage or other, something or else is gonna to have to happen to them and I would hope that the magistrates in their wisdom in some committee or other are, are deciding to take these courts back into use. [Coleman:] Thank you Mr. We don't have much control over what the magistrate's court committee do, as we could tell from our efforts to appeal against the closure of some other magistrate's courts... erm, anybody else on this subject, I'll put this to the vote, really since it's a technicality. [Chalk:] It's a pure technicality, Mr chairman, but I did ask at the previous meeting er, that the erm, director of property services respond to me on a matter relating to Wootton Bassett magistrate's court, If we have such a large amount of money that we can spend I think the questions that I posed then, er are relevant and I would appreciate a reply. [Coleman:] Er, Mr erm, I think your point is covered in the next item on the agenda where there is a reference to to twenty-five thousand included the ninety-three four budget for Wootton Bassett. Can I put this to the vote? Those in favour please show... and the against... that is agreed. [paper rustling] [speaker001:] [cough] [Coleman:] Nine two, you have a paper from the, which is a copy of the paper th, that the director of financial services submitted to the magistrate's court committee management board, a response from the magistrate's courts management board for the county council erm, I will move to note the response of the magistrate's courts committee and to confirm our previous recommendation to the county council regarding this part of the policy resources committee budget. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] And the against... that is carried. [paper rustling] Item ten, which I think is the probations committee budget [papers being rustled]... I will move to accept the probations committee's budget and to agree an increased county council contribution of twenty-six thousand pounds. [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] I see nobody wishing to speak, those in favour please show... any against? That is agreed.... Right, [cough] for the next item members will need to note the statements from the joint trade unions liaison committee and the non-domestic rate-payers group... and to find item twenty-one two today's papers, the minutes of the budget review sub-committee, meeting held on the eighteenth of January, agenda item twenty-two brackets one. [speaker001:] [cough] [Coleman:] There's a recommendation from the budget review sub-committee for us to deal with, at er, minute seven, little at the bottom of page two. The fifth paragraph of that has the proposed council tax bands the county council services but these have been amended by a letter you've been sent dated the twenty- first of January, as a result of information from council regarding their tax base. And I will move from the chair to recommend the county council, erm, as shown on page three, that is to say paragraphs little one, little two, little three, little four and little five with the amended band figures. And I would like to say thank you to the people who sit on the budget review sub- committee, a committee which actually I don't attend as often as I probably ought to, particularly to the labour spokesperson, for the way he's guided the committee, both from within the chair and at other times, on it's work this year, to be able to propose a budget which erm, so well fulfils the aims that many of us had when we were elected in May, which were of course, to maintain services, er, to squeeze efficiency out of the sy into the system and squeeze any waste out, and to get our officers working towards zero base budgets. And to a very large degree, that has been erm, achieved, and I think that erm, the prospects for the county council for ninety-four five are now much better than they appeared to be a year ago, and er, I think the prospects for ninety-five six will need to be looked at through the budget review sub-committee and this committee at an early stage, and I'm sure that the workman-like way in which it's addressed it's business is a good sign for the future. I would like to thank all the members erm, who've served on that committee and indeed the officers who've worked for it, because a lot of the background work and a lot of the er, consultation with departments has been necessary to get us to the erm, reasonably satisfactory stage we're at, considering the ext extremely severe restrictions on government ex, er, on local government spending, er resulting from the cap. That's inspired a few hands. I'll take Mr. [Small:] You're getting me worried. You praised two of my members on Friday, another one today, you after them or something? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Small:] [LAUGHTER] Can I thank you for those generous comments that you say towards er,, I think they're totally true, he's worked extremely hard in making sure this council has a budget which balanced, and it's due to his expertise and bullying tactics that we've succeeded, and he should be fully congratulated for that, and I think it's the determination of those who were elected in May as well, to make sure that we protected services and jobs, and, and make sure that we actually carried out the mandate which the electors elected us to do that we have such ach achieved what we have achieved today. [Coleman:] er, Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you chairman. I, I er, you would not expect me to continue with the euphoria which you were trying to create earlier, and er, I have to say that I suppose that you wouldn't er, be proposing any different budget to this would you, in the circumstances that you've got. But we wouldn't be starting at that, at the point that you did because we did not, would not have spent the approaching five million that you spent in the first er, month or two of this council. We... note that you have addressed the problem on social services in your re in your erm, proposal, er and that we we're grateful for. We were faced, as you reminded me with a projected twenty-four million pound shortfall. That projection of course took into account the fact that you'd raised the base and therefore you had extra money to find. But when you look carefully at where that twenty-four million disappeared to, you start to find the problems with your budget. There was a six million pound erm, er difference on the S A assumption. There was an assumption that inflation would be higher than it was and that was cut back to one point five percent, which I think that I would actually support was a sensible way forward. But there was a costed projection of eleven point two million in that, you're not funding that eleven point two million projection, and we need to look underneath, to what that means, and that means that you're not funding schools, and that is particularly secondary schools, to the extent of a one million pound shortfall because the increase in pupil numbers. Now we'll here very quickly from people who say that we've devolved more money to schools. We've devolved the money to schools, but they've got to spend most of it back with the council here. What the thing of course is, and we all know what it is, it's an effort to penalise those secondary schools who've gone grant maintained, but they don't get the extra money, they get a hundred pound a pupil less. Don't shake your head Mr, read the letters that are coming to me, from those schools like who can see the reduction in their budget next year. Look at the police budget, and we shall be discussing the police budget later on, you had a windfall, underspend on police pensions, but we all know those police will retire at some time or other, and when they do there is a commitment to their lump sum payments and their pensions. You've had a bit of luck there, you might turn the other way next year, and you might find that you've got an increased number of police retiring, and if you have, you're going to find extreme pressure on the police budget, and you will see that there is the reductions that the Chief Constable told you he would have to make if that happened. You're already short short-funding the police budget without that factor as well. You've got a reduction in this budget of three and three quarter million pounds on highway maintenance. That actually is an awful lot of roads that are not going to be maintained in the coming year. You've reduced highway maintenance from six point two million down to er, er, a figure of two point five. That's jobs, that's where you you say you want to support the private sector and the building trade to bring more jobs. That's an awful lot of jobs in that, that aren't going to be in Wiltshire next year because you've reduced it, and it's also a considerable reduction in the standard of our roads. I will be reminding you as the year goes on, and the other items of pain start to appear in the budget that you would think you have so cleverly put together and that with no problems. We will continue here reminding you Mr Chairman, we will be opposing the budget that you have presented. [Coleman:] [clears throat] Mr [Small:] Thank you chairman. Er, first point, I'm not absolutely certain, when you moved your proposal, you moved from budget review, the clauses one to five. I'm not sure that you also removed clauses c, d and e from the order paper, and if you haven't I'll so move. [Coleman:] Thank you, I'll accept that amendment. Members are clear what Mr spotted which is that in addition to the from budget review, we also need to agree some er, effectively some delegations in c, d and e, of the recommendation laid out in pages two and three of the main agenda. I think that's what Mr 's moved as an amendment, and I'm happy to accept that, so that forms part of [Small:] Thank you chairman. I mean,wha what I would like to go on and say is, that er, which the change of administration it has been necessary to er, adopt a different way of, of developing the budget, and I think you're quite right to erm, pay credit to the effort of the er, budget review er, sub-committee. I think we also need to recognise that there has also been a er, high level of er, commitment from er, officers employed by this council to achieving the changes that we have asked in terms of financial management, now I'm not going to pretend for a moment that er, we've gone all the way there yet. But I think in the few months that this administration has er, has been in office, it is encouraging to see that the county council is operating inside the budget, er, which I believe was actually set by the previous administration, erm, er over which we had no influence whatsoever. Now clearly, we're not going to pretend that there aren't going to be problems in the future that we may have to address. Not least I think the er, if if the government find themselves faced with much higher pay er, settlements erm, as a result of the deliberations of the pay revue bodies. I for one will be most curious to see how the chancellor of the exchequer wriggles out of that particular i issue. But nonetheless, I think we as county councillors can be proud of the fact that we have set a spending target for committees, we are prepared to allow the officers to manage their departments inside the targets that have been set, and that does mean that they have to look at er, what they're spending and create priorities, and and I as a councillor am not in the least bit impressed by arguments that paper clips have increased by five and a half percent this year, and that felt l er pe felt line erm, pens have gone up by seventeen and a half percent, I think that's largely irrelevant consideration, we're not in the business of projecting budget, we're in the business of providing money to deliver high quality services to the people of Wiltshire. I think the people of Wiltshire recognise that we have been able to set a budget that enables all the departments to have more money in real terms to spend on delivery of service for next year, and I think that's something that we can some credit in, and I think it does reflect a new partnership between councillors, officers and those that are delivering services to the public across the county. [Coleman:] Thank you, er Mr. [Pager:] Thank you Mr Chairman. It might not surprise you that it's the highways budget that concerns me. Erm, I think it's a false economy to cut on maintenance, you only leave trouble there, you're putting off the problem for our successors. The young people following us will have to pay for our mistakes if we cut on maintenance now. And I do, I'm more concerned with the lack of capital in maintenance that'll we'll, we're going to have on the roads and infrastructure this year, I think there's always a reason to put a little bit of capital maintenance into both our buildings and our roads. It needs to be done now and it's going to cost us more if we leave it till later, on that point I can't agree with your budget, so, I'm afraid, it's roads that put me against it. [Coleman:] Well I will just come in here because I think Mr wants to get his figures a bit more accurate. I don't think even in our wildest dreams we managed to spend an extra five million in the first few weeks of this council, I remember a couple of million going into schools and few hundred thousand for voluntary organizations, and er, and old people's homes. But the other figure I think he's, he'll have to recheck is his figure on highways structural maintenance, because in fact two and a half million's in the base budget and one and a half million's in the approved list of thirty-seven bids at at er, priority number two. It seems to me entirely up to him, if he so wished, and his group, if they felt there needed to be more money spent on highways structural maintenance to have moved other bids up to priority order when discussing the capital budget. And I do think it's unfortunate when people try and confuse capital and revenue expenditure, in order to try and er, support their own rather weak political position. Erm, but it's impressive that he now feels we should be allowed to spend more money to create jobs, because of course a lot of us have been trying to point that out for years to the governments which stupidly cap authorities so they can't actually carry out the infrastructure improvements that are needed to enable the economy and the society to function properly. I'll call Mr to. [Okinson:] Thank you chair, thank you particularly for your kind words, they are appreciated. Erm, doesn't a lot change in a year really, or even in six months. In May, Mr and his group had the opportunity to vote with us in spending another two million pounds on the education system of this county, and now he is complaining only six months later, that we aren't spending enough, and I think we've said before, the Conservatives have, and continue to have the opportunity for action, but they will not support their words with deeds. Erm, we've seen it also through the budget process, where all the way through, and it's been a very open process, we have no alternative proposals from the Conservative group, they have complained and have criticized but they have offered no alternatives. This morning they offer no alternatives other than to spend more. I mean it might as well be perhaps, I don't know, Lambeth council in the nineteen-seventies that they are representing, along with John Major there. They're simply asking for more money to spent with no concerns about the value for money, and surely it was the Conservatives who used to tell us ten or fifteen years ago, that you couldn't judge the quality of a service by the amount of money spent on it. The fact that we are providing the services for Wiltshire, that they were providing, and we're providing them for less money, is surely something to be applauded. We all know that the task we've set the officers is to manage within the budgets they've been given, and to have no cuts in services, and no compulsory redundancies, and thi this is their challenge and this is what they seem to be achieving, and I think we should applaud them for that. I think we should note that in the current year, and you've corrected Mr, that it's three million pounds extra that we've spent, even though we've spent three million pounds extra in May, with our decisions then to restore the sheltered workshops and to give more money to education and to keep elderly peoples homes open. Even though we spent that money we are projected to come in with balances of three million pounds in excess of the budget figure set by the Conservatives, and that is a six million pounds difference that's come straight out of the twenty-four and I think it tells us two things. One is that the then Conservative group, and I think, by reflection the current Conservative groups, since everybody sitting here was here last year, don't know enough about budgeting to set a budget for a county council, and it also tells us that they don't know enough about managing a county council to manage even a budget that they have set. And it surely is som something that the people of Wiltshire can be glad that they made the right decisions in May, that they haven't got that administration, [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Okinson:] I think also, the people of Wiltshire will be glad that it us here setting the budget, and therefore the precept and their council tax next year, and something that people will be looking at is their council tax bills, and noting that they go up by six point three percent, or are proposed to, with the provisional assets aim which is set by the government. And people may be wondering why they're going up by so much, when after all, the S S A, and that is the figure that we're restricted to set by the government, is only going up by three point three percent, and half of this is for care in the community money, so that, all that care in the community money remember, pound for pound in that it's added to our budget, is knocked off the budget of Social Security, that is not, not any extra money spent on people. So in reality our S S A is going up about one and a half percent, and as you know our budget has gone up about one and a half percent, so why is the council tax going up six point three percent? Well, as usual it's all there in the papers that Mr has prepared for us if anybody cares to read them, and you will notice, the national non-domestic rate, the business rate as it's known, the contribution that the government are passing on from the business rates paid in Wiltshire, back to the people of Wiltshire is dropping by seven point nine million pounds, it's being cut from a hundred and eighteen point six to a hundred and nine point three million pounds, and again this is pound for pound. Pound for pound it's coming off the people of Wiltshire, and it's going to fund Kenneth Clarke's budget deficit. Kenneth Clarke has robbed the people of Wiltshire of that money. That's nine point three million pounds of business rates, and I'm sure I'm not the only person here that pays business rates in Wiltshire, and I haven't noticed any sign that my rate bill are going down, course they're not. The Government is taking the money, and it is not paying it back to the people of Wiltshire. Now, if we had actually received a one point five percent increase in the business rates, we could have cut the council tax [tape ended] so we could have reduced that, and I think that is the criticism that I make of the Conservatives, not that the Conservatives in this council have done that, but that they should be apologizing for it. They should be standing here now as the party of high taxation, and saying sorry to the people of Wiltshire for supporting Kenneth Clarke and his team, for supporting John Major and his team, and they should be saying sorry for the part that we pa played in lying to the electorate at the last general election. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Well, follow that, erm, [LAUGHTER] I think that er, I'll be very brief because a lot of it's already been said, and you've already, Mr Chairman picked up Mr on his dodgy figures, erm, with his five million, erm, because what that was about, just under three million was actually fulfilling our election pledges, which is something we have noticeably failed to see from this Conservative government. Erm, Mr goes on about displaying items of pain in a really rather sort of strange way, erm, the only reason why there's any pain in this budget is because of the constraints that this Tory government is putting on us. And if we were able to make a budget erm, without the constraints of the S S A and so on, we would not, erm you know, and without the cuts of business rates as Mr said, there wouldn't need for any pain anyway. Erm, we have, as you would have seen, and has already been noted, erm, balances considerably higher than the seven million we've previously set, at the, at the moment, and these will erm, be able to make provision if necessary, for police pay should happen to be higher than er, we are told than, than the one point five percent, which has something that people have raised with me, and erm, have said, that oh of course you lose grants if you don't decide it now, but that is not in fact the case. Erm, I think that we have a very sane, sensible budget proposed here, and I trust that every sensible councillor will support it. [Coleman:] I, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see you. [speaker001:] Erm, could I go back to what Mr was saying, of course the main thing is, really that er, the difference in this budget and previous ones is that we are not paying projection costs million. Erm, what Mr very carefully very carefully failed to mention of course is that the rates of has in fact gone up by eleven point one percent. Very conveniently not mentioned. [Coleman:] Yes, I, I, the Can we erm, can we move on? The, the motion I moved needs to be adjusted because of our decision on the probation committee, earlier. Little three, erm, where the reference to drawing from balances is made. That figure needs to go up by twenty-six thousand to read nought point two three one million, and what's left needs to go down by twenty-six thousand at ten one one four o million. Erm, I'll put the motion to the vote, which consists of the whole of paragraph b of the budget review sub-committee's recommendation, with this being a recommendation to the county council, and with paragraphs c, d and e from the original agenda paper. Those in favour please show... and the against? That is carried. Thank you very much. [clears throat] Er, item twelve. I'm going to take these two together, that's twelve one and twelve two. Twelve one deals with the recommendation for economic developments and tourism sub-committee, er the er projects, and twelve two with the er, capital budget report from the director of financial services, which is in the budget book, I refer to the recommendation on these items from the budget review sub-committee, which is in their minutes, at agenda item twenty-two one, at the bottom of the third page and going over to the fourth, erm, a number of paragraphs. And erm, I'll move those recommendations from the budget review sub-committee, a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h. In doing so I would erm, particularly like to say how much I appreciate the success of the bid, in erm, as, as an example of county, counties working together, erm, and indeed officers working together, and indeed of getting a positive response from the Government. I think from time to time, little bits of the Government do work reasonably well, and do respond reasonably well to county council and local authority initiatives, and although I couldn't pretend that a hundred and, that twenty- five thousand pounds is going to solve the unemployment problem in Wiltshire, nor indeed solve the problem being created by the run- down of defence industry, nevertheless, I think credit should be given where credit's due. A lot of credit is due to our officers in this respect, for er, securing the success of that bid, and indeed for securing a back-up capital resource facility, in the unlikely event that we don't get the supplementary credit approval, er, for the er, for the expenditure. So, I've moved the motion, anybody wish to speak on this item?... Okay, those in favour please show... and the against... [paper rustling]. Nobody else, er, agenda item thirteen treasury report [speaker001:] aye. [Coleman:] Thank you. Agenda item fourteen, I recommend that the county council approve the recommendations of eleven a, b and c. [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] Those in favour please say aye. [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] And the against... that is carried. Item fifteen, I move to approve the supplementary capital estimate of twenty-five thousand pounds for the St Mary's infant school special nursery unit. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker001:] aye [Coleman:] And the against... that is carried. Item sixteen, the district auditors management letter and audited accounts for ninety-two ninety-three. Mr. [Okinson:] Thank you chair, chairman. I have a particular over the management letter, and I'm sure Mr will be aware that in fact I refer of course to the facilities management contract. Erm, this management letter was distributed er, to all of us, so I suppose some of us at least will have read it. And, and the district auditor is particularly concerned. He says, I remain concerned that it is not yet possible to agree an implementation plan for recommendations made in his previous report. Now this is in his key messages, and towards the back, there are two pages, where he complains that many promises were made for the facilities management contract, and in particular, erm, he says it is still the case that work to take advantage of the development faci facility has not yet been identified, now I think this is the thing we spent a million pounds on it, and are not using it. And he says that progress towards down-sizing has not yet been planned to meet the target deadline within the con, within the contract. Now how long ago was that contract? Eighteen months? And this is a letter dated a couple of months ago, is it? Erm, what's been going there? Now the facilities management contract is being held up by Mr as an example for the property out-sourcing. Well I don't think it's a very good example, if it's being criticized. Perhaps it's the kind of example, in the same way that Westminster Council was held up as an example, and it's now being criticized by the district auditor. Erm, perhaps it will be Mr 's policy to impune all district auditors that their findings are not worth erm, troubling with. Well, I don't suppose this contract's costing us twenty-one million, but it's costing us several million, and I would hate to think that er, any of that is being wasted, or not spent in the best possible way, and I would therefore recommend, chair, that we refer the matter of the facilities management contract to the budget review sub-committee for consideration of the way it's not being implemented. [Coleman:] Right, thank you. referring to, paragraphs one hundred and four to one hundred and nine, saying, Miss also wishes to comment on this [speaker001:] Erm, yes I do, very much indeed. I'm extremely disappointed, that erm, we don't seem to make any progress towards getting the savings erm, that, that, erm, we were promised. I, I hesitate to suggest, I mean that I'm quite happy to support what Mr is saying, because I really hesitate to suggest reviving the old computer and financial services working party, because I think that was probably my most miserable experience on this council, with the single exception of the budget review er, parallel, or whatever it was, when it was led by. Erm, but it seems to be the case that when there are not councillors here whinging away at officers, saying why isn't it working, nothing happens, it all gets sort of forgotten or something. And we've got to do something about it, we were promised these savings, there aren't any, it doesn't look as if anybody's working awfully hard to get them, and I'd like to know why not, and what's going on, and I'm quite happy to support what Mr proposes, that we refer it all to budget review. [Coleman:] You might have noticed, there is an officer response. Mr [Okinson:] Can I just say sir, we are, er, the manager is preparing a report, tonight plans a report for the February the twenty-second meeting of policy resources committee, on the first, well it's not the first year, first tranche of the F M contract, and dealing with these points of the It started at the end of March, it's the first nine months, it's the first tranche of the erm, the F M arrangement, and, and your members will be getting a report in February on that. [Coleman:] Mr [Chalk:] You would expect me to defend it, wouldn't you chairman, and I will. I still remain convinced, that the, that the contract that we wrote, and, and, and we undertook remains the right [speaker001:] I don't know where Mr get's his ideas from. But there nd we undertook remains the right [Okinson:] No chair, I would very much like it to be looked at in great detail by the budget review committee, actually, you'll see in the report that many of these problems were identified as areas of concern by the district auditor prior to the signing of the contract, and he was given, it seems, various assurances which may or may not have been met, and I would like to go into much more detail than would be possible with this committee. I'm actually thinking in terms of an hour or two, with the responsible manager reporting in detail to the budget review committee. We're talking about a lot of money here, that has been spent, and has continued to be spent, and the sooner we get it sorted out the better, and I'd like to see it on the agenda of the next budget review committee, which would prior to the policy committee, I believe next, and so we could perhaps augment er, Mr 's report with some findings of our own. [Coleman:] Right, now I'm told that the report to next policy committee is coming anyway, it won't be ready for the next budget review, but you'd like, erm, so,cou, perhaps you'd better word your motion so that the officers completely clear as to what you're proposing. [Okinson:] Yeah, I, I'm suggesting that the facilities management contract, be referred to the budget review sub-committee for consideration, and in that way we can actually consider it, and obviously if the report is not yet prepared, erm, perhaps we can put some input into it, I have to say, that it disturbs me to be given an answer, that don't worry everybody, there's a report coming, and then we suddenly say well, we might like to look at it in three weeks time, we're told actually it's not written yet. [Coleman:] That was seconded I think by Mr [speaker001:] Right, well I mean I think it, it's actually quite simplified by the fact that I don't think there actually is a firm date for the budget review before the next P and R anyway. Erm, but I think P, er, budget review, or somebody needs to have a look at it, if you've got budget review and you've got people who, most of the people who were on the old working party know the background there anyway, seems as good a place as any to look at it. I mean I actually voted for this contract, erm, rather reluctantly, but it seemed better than not, doing so at the time, but we were given assurances, and it was very well understood by absolutely everybody, that vigorous management would be needed in order to achieve the targetising and that was the only way that the savings were going to be made, and it does seem that, that, erm that has not been going on. I would support what Mr was saying. [Coleman:] Yes, we have a small problem with the dates, that's all. The budget review sub-committee has a provisional date of Thursday the third of February, which was in the minds of members and officers to deal with anything urgent that needed to be dealt with before county council budget making. Erm, I'm happy to take Mr 's view on this. Whether he wants to get F M onto the agenda and firm that up as a date for a meeting. [Okinson:] Well I, I think it's, that's a meeting that we were thinking of not having unless there was some sort of panic caused by yet another change of the Government's position on budgets. So it's still in obeyance isn't it? What I'm suggesting really, is let's get it on the agenda for budget review whenever the next meeting is, to be considered in depth, and if that gives an extra couple or three weeks for officers to write the report, fine, if it goes beyond the next policy and resources a week or two won't matter in the scheme of things, it's detailed consideration I'm looking for, rather than a fast fix in ten minutes at the next P and R. [Coleman:] Okay, everybody clear what the motion is? Those in favour please show... and the against... any further points on the district auditor's reports? Miss [speaker001:] Erm, yes. I would like to draw attention particularly in the light of the next item on the agenda, er, to paragraph erm, paragraph forty-two to forty-five, talking about environmental management. Erm, in particular in paragraph forty-four. He is er, strongly er, suggesting that we ought to be rather more pro-active than we either are, or than anybody is suggesting that we ought to be in the paper at number seventeen. And I'd just like to raise this now because I'll be saying more when we get to seventeen. [Coleman:] Thank you Miss. Erm, Mr [Chalk:] Thank you. I would like to erm, talk to ninety-three on page thirty-one and er, this is education rationalizing primary school education. I think there's er, a dispute er, erm, that's my er, choice of words, between the district auditor and ourselves, over, over this. And I think that it might be useful, Mr Chairman to emphasize the fact that we are a rural county, and a rural county has specific rural problems, er, and I don't think that the district auditor has recognized the particular problems that we have er, in a rural county. So, I wonder whether er, as ari er, a matter arising out of this, erm er, the director of education could, erm er, perhaps address this issue and put forward a paper to the next education committee. [Coleman:] Well, I, I think I will ask the director of education to comment on that paragraph, because to a large degree, the, the district auditor's report that he refers to there, in his section, matters previously raised, his report entitled rationalizing primary school education was published in December nineteen ninety- one, and it is being addressed through a, a working party of the education committee which involves representatives from the church as well as of the political groups. But I do think that the district auditor is beginning to be presented as a bogie man erm, waved in the faces of people in rural areas, as a sort of threat that even if the council doesn't want to close your school, it might, and I think that probably isn't a very proper use of the district auditor's image, nor of his report, and I think perhaps some direct contact with him, er to show what progress we're making, paragraph by paragraph, and what we think of that report from December ninety-one, probably needs to be made. But I will ask dir, the director to re, respond to you on this Mr, er, er, did you want to also put this to vote? [Chalk:] No, well I, I'll ask them to hang for Mr. [speaker001:] Chairman,ye, yes it is a recurring theme of the district auditor an, and I told him in the past, that erm, where this council has a policy that they would support village schools and keep them open wherever possible, erm, that that, that, that decision had been discussed, and er, I, I have to remind that I did remind the district auditor that he doesn't have to get elected every four years, as some of us do, and er, those in rural areas know very well that that is the way not to get elected, to be talking about shutting village schools. But he doesn't acknowledge, and what, this is what I find concerning, the fact that we have in some areas of the county, amalgamated schools into a new school, West Grinstead and Alderbury for example, and taken surplus places out. In the Meer area we, we, we've built Meer First School into an annexe and we took surplus places out, so we have done something, and he doesn't seem to even acknowledge that, which I find concerning. I doubt whether the working party will get any further than recommending the status quo, because I'm absolutely sure in my own mind, that it is a duty that this council has to support village schools, where the parents support them, and where they're educationally beneficial, to support them in the village communities, because they are, they have other importance than just education. They are also a centre of the village. [Coleman:] Dr [Caplan:] Thank you chairman. Erm, if I could just bring the committee up to date on one or two things that have happened in relation to the district auditor's report. Firstly, er, I could assure the committee that the working party on provision of secondary and primary places which is published by the education committee, is taking the auditor's report very seriously, and has been through it in detail, and has er, drawn up a programme of, of analysis, erm, over the next few months, very much taking into account the district auditor's comments. There have been discussions, both at education committee and at county council which relate to the district auditor's concerns, er, county council want a full discussion of course about the place of small schools in the county, being a predominantly rural area. And also last Friday at education committee there was a long debate, both on the procedure which would be adopted by the working party, in discharging it's remit and in particular the policy which it recommended regarding small schools, and also an extended debate on one of the areas which was a subject of recommendation by the er, district auditor which concerns the organisation of first and middle schooling in the Meer area, and there the working party did look very specifically at the recommendation that was made by the district auditor that decided on balance that that wasn't likely to produce the best and most cost effective education in that part of the county. So, I think that the er, education committee has taken the, the report seriously and quite recently has looked at it in depth. The other thing perhaps I could just say, chairman, is that I did meet a representative of the district auditor last week to bring you up to date on the work which the education committee was doing. [Coleman:] Erm, Mr. [Small:] Thank you chairman. Er, throughout the management letter to members the district auditor er, makes suggestions and, and indicates that he will be monitoring our progress on a number of actions. Specifically I notice his comment in relation to the Christie Miller controversy, and also in relation to certain matters involving the police. Erm, I wonder if this is a matter which budget review might wish to keep on a continuing brief, so that, to satisfy themselves that the, this council is in fact making progress, and will be in a position to satisfy the district auditor in future years that we are er, taking on board the comments that he's making and er, moving forward. I'm conscious of the fact obviously that individual departments are taking them on board, but I think we, it is important that we actually do have a consistent approach, and it might well be that budget review at some future meeting might want to consider the monitoring of progress in order to satisfy the district auditor in future events. I've looked, for example, erm, to his comment on the police communications rooms, which will actually have a significant impact on er, the budget of the police committee in future years. [Coleman:] Yes, I, I mean, I think, I don't want to come in there, but I think the difference between the point that you've made Mr and, and some of the others is the district auditor hasn't put a thing in a box. If he puts a thing in a box, it means you really have got to read this, and worry about it, but I think he's fairly happy with the progress on police training and police communication arrangements. If it had been up to me, you'd have one police communication room, not two, because I've worked in operations control, and you want to have a single control room for your authority, if any other system is less efficient than that. But I appreciate there were good operational reasons why he did what he did, but that's just from my own experience. Mr [speaker010:] Thank you chairman. It's just that I think the district auditor knows what the cost of local schools is, and not the value of local schools. What I, and I having heard the director, what I want to be clear about, is that any decision which relates to closing local schools on, on economic grounds comes to the full county council, and is, is not dealt with by education. If it doesn't come to the full county council, then I will make sure it does, but I, one would hope that a decision such as that, which is of paramount importance in a, a rural area would be taken by a full county council and not by education. [Coleman:] Well, that would be a change in procedure, I think, I don't recall that the closure of Berwick St James school was dealt with by county council, but Berwick St James was closed, I don't think we can pretend in either way about that. And I voted, I think, if I had a vote that day, I certainly voted in favour of that, and so did members of all groups. Some members voted against. But erm, I, certainly Mr had the right through standing orders to ensure that that er, was er, taken to county council, wouldn't he? [speaker010:] Yes sir, county council could make that decision, it would first though have to consider a report from the education committee, under the education act. [Coleman:] It's all very hypothetical. Mrs [speaker001:] Thank you chair. I think education committee is quite capable of making those kinds of decisions, and members, erm, that er, are representing rural areas are allowed to come along to education committee, and I think that's perhaps the better way to, to go along those lines. But I, I would like to point out the difficulties that the audit has, the dist, the difficulties that the erm, er, local authorities have, or local education authorities have, in that the Government are, er, the Government insists on taking up surplus places, and this is inconsistent with their, also with their insistence on choice and diversity in education, and I think those points could be made quite clearly to the D F E some time or other. [Coleman:] Mr [Small:] Thank you chair. Can I echo the comments that people have made on the value of rural schools to villages. It's something I think everyone recognizes at their own, that village school plays more than just the function of educating children, in small village communities. But there is the other argument that has to be taken off, is that of, there is money, and I, we all would like to say that we'd like to pour as much money into education as we feel we could spend. But it doesn't mean, it's not, reality says that's not possible, because central government will not give us additional money to spend on education. Therefore, we're left with a certain pot and we must manage that the best way possible in providing the best education, not only for children in village schools, but in towns and every of large or medium size throughout this county. And why should the education of those who live in large towns suffer to finance uneconomical schools in rural areas of this county. I'm not saying that they are uneconomical, but there may be the odd one or two cases, like the of Berwick St James is a fine example, when it became uneconomical to maintain that school for the number of pupils which were attending, or proposed to be taken in the near future, and it was a sensible option for those children, and economically to close that school. And that has to be maintained in the future. I don't support this blanket band of reducing surplus places for the sake of reducing surplus places, like the district auditor, and if quote right, it's an accountant looking at erm, looking at figures and nothing else, and I think that is the problem with the issue, erm, we've seen in other schools, in larger schools, where they've developed erm, classrooms into a decent library, or resource area, but in the, in the, in the overall spectrum they're still counted as classroom spaces, and if that classroom was put back er in, into a class, the school would suffer environmentally, because that school would have no library facilities, no resource facilities which it's able to appreciate at the present time. I believe that this group, the Labour group will continue to support rural schools, where we feel that they are viable, and of benefit to the children. Our arguments on Friday, and still are, that we believe the two tier system is educationally beneficial than the three tier. But that argument we lost on Friday, and I'm not going to pursue it today. But what I, we are not prepared to do, is allow the schools that we represent to suffer, just to maintain small schools in this county, which are no longer economical or viable or educationally beneficial to the children that attend them. We are not prepared to stand by and let schools in areas that we represent get closed or re-organised or whatever, at the expense of small village schools, which should be re-organised, or re-rationalised before schools in large urban areas. We will not take the brunt of the district auditor's reduction in surplus places. It has to be done evenly across the board, in the rural and urban areas, or else we will fight every tooth and nail to make sure that we, our schools that we represent do not suffer. And I give that clear warning. The Labour party in this county, values the role of small rural schools, but we are not prepared to see urban schools suffer to make sure that urb, rural schools are kept open for the sake of being kept open. Can I remind members of a fact that in the sake of a county where there are more small schools, there is four percent more spent on education in the south of the county than any other part of Wiltshire. [Coleman:] Right, erm, I move that we er, having dealt with the F M under a separate motion, that we note the district auditor's report. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker001:] aye. [Coleman:] And the against... that's carried. Item seventeen. [speaker001:] [murmering]. [Coleman:] Well now, I'll move the recommendations at seventeen and eighteen, but erm, I feel something further is required to try and get er, our officers working with our committees on local agenda twenty-one, and indeed in bringing forward the environmental audit scheme. I don't want to have a working party, but I'm wondering if we should lay down some sort of set of timetable and dates. Mr. [Pager:] Thank you manag, er Mr Chairman. Er, [LAUGHTER] sorry. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pager:] [LAUGHTER] sorry about that Er, er, erm [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Pager:] [LAUGHTER] actually I was yeah []. Erm, it's just on the big print on the bottom of page one, g two. Er, what's the point of analysing fuel for it's su, er, diesel fuel for it's sulphur content? It's much more economical both for th, and good for the environment to buy low sulphur fuel. Because, you know, it, it's cheaper to run your vehicles on low sulphur diesel, and it is because you don't get the deterioration... in it, and it's better for the, it's better for the atmosphere. So I would have thought would be better to buy low sulphur contented diesel rather than analyse it, and in c thirteen, it worries me a little bit, because I believe that the district councils are the drainage authorities with the right about land drainage, and it was taken away from the county council several years ago. So are we actually putting our feet into what's being done by the district councils over c thirteen. I, I totally agree with what they're saying, but I'm just worrying that we're trying to do the job that the district councils are supposed to do. [Coleman:] I, I, I would wonder if Mr 's questions need to be erm, taken up with the chief public health inspector, because I think that that, or it, that appears to be, or possibly the trading chistandards, trading standards officer, neither of whom are here. Erm, because er, it does seem that erm, though we're not talking about our own fuel, we're talking about testing other people's fuel, and erm, there's an, it's an arcane point about district councils. Miss. [speaker001:] Erm, thank you chairman. Yes, I mean it's, it's a nice report, but it's erm, it's not very sort of forceful or vigorous, is it? Erm, you know it's saying that motherhood is a good thing, but let's not exert ourselves too greatly to do anything about it. Erm. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Oh, sorry I've got sex on the mind. [] Erm, I think, you know, when it says, at the end, towards the end of paragraph eleven, talking about the environmental management scheme for local government, could be utilised as tools to help improve the management framework for the councils precedents and initiatives in environmental matters. I would have felt much happier if the word had been will rather than could. Erm, it's quite clear from the district auditor's letter that he thinks that we're not being systematic enough, about what we do about environmental improvements, and it seems fairly clear to me to, that if we just push the to the service committees, erm, nothing will ever happen, except possibly on planning, and that erm, it will just sort of quietly disappear because it's not the top priority of any of the other service committees. And, it's only if this committee decides to take a hand in pushing environmental issues forward, that they will actually come about, except, almost by accident. And I would suggest therefore, that what we ought to do, is to ask not only for erm, the service committees to have reports, but for there to be erm, a, a, at some point a round up report of policy and resources. I don't know if we ought to put a timetable on that, on what's going on, on this erm, eco-management erm, business, but also, I was wondering, could we not ask for a report to the March or April meeting of this committee, on what actions we could take to make progress on the recommendations of the district auditor in paragraph forty-four. Erm, those are specifically, that there should be a formal framework for monitoring the revue, of our policies, that individual service committees should prioritise individual policies based on consistent criteria, and that there is the need to make staff aware of the authority's environmental policies. These are all things that we can take specific action, some easier and cheaper than others, to do something about. But I think we need to have a report to this committee, saying what we could do, and then we can decide what we will do. And I would like to move that that is added to your recommendation Mr Chairman. [Coleman:] Er, I think, Miss you're moving er, an extra paragraph nineteen as it were to er, that a report be made to, shall we say the April meeting of policy and resources committee on progress in implementing the district auditor's recommendations, er paragraph four. [speaker001:] But what I, I specifically worded this, what actions we could make, could take to make progress [Coleman:] Okay. [speaker001:] Because if you still want the answer to progress, the answer will come back none. Erm, if you ask for what actions we could take, then we'll have to work out a way of doing it. [Coleman:] Is everybody clear on that amendment, which I'm happy to accept into er, my motion. I call Mr. [Cole:] Thank you chair. Erm, I don't know if it's worth speaking now, I, I'd like to second everything that has said, and what the auditors have said erm, in the management arrangement. I do thank Mr for this report, but I would have liked to have seen that the chief executive had been a signatory to it as well. Because [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Cole:] it is something whi which affects the whole council, it isn't the prerogative of any particular service committee, and though on environmental matters and public health matters, another mi may be responsible and know more, it is an overall policy which erm, is being developed and needs to be erm, needs to be brought into play. Erm, there is a need, as said, to make staff away of the authorities environmental policies. Erm, I dare say, on all our staff, our staff could make us more aware of environmental policies, and you know, are aware of erm, the need for the environmental action, erm than, erm than the action we are taking ourselves. That er, er, little action has been taken in the last thirty forty years since this has been being discussed, erm, I think the first international conference erm, produced their own report in nineteen sixty. Erm, we had the Rio conference in nineteen ninety-three, erm, we'll still doing very little about it. We the local authority, I think people of Wiltshire expect us to be the lead agency in promoting sustainability and environmental, highlighting environmental issues, throughout the county. Erm, not just taking a back seat, we need to actually promote these. Erm, I recognise that erm, within the report it does state erm, that there is the cost of it, and erm, and in Lancashire it may have cost three million pounds etc, it doesn't say what it specifically was. Since having said that erm, I'm not immediately looking erm, for high expenditure, but I would hope that possibly one particular area, or w er, council, erm, as it were could start operating the system, erm, on a trial basis, and preferably erm, not one which is erm, under planning and highways, though planning and highways and environmental officers would need to help them. would suggest, erm, would be libraries and museums. And I suggest libraries and museums, because I dare say they have the greatest experience in information co-ordination systems erm, within the, within the council, and I think, er, and of course they're highly involved out in the community. You'll find a library in absolutely every community, and reacting with people, and I would like to suggest that erm, a pilot project is erm, promoted within the libraries and museums committee, and that libraries and museums committee consider that at it's next meeting. [Coleman:] Okay erm, [clears throat] Mr please. [Chalk:] Thank you. [clears throat] If we look at the paper before us Mr Chairman, er, g two, and c thirteen. Er, g two is something which is specifically an envir, part of the environmental strategy. But c thirteen, about the conservation of the water environment and water resources, is a matter which could be incorporated in the county structure plan. As opposed to g two. I was wondering whether erm, the director of planning and highways could, in an update, as proposed by erm, Councillor erm, suggest other ways in which our environmental strategy could be inc er, could, could be strengthened. I have already suggested that c thirteen could become the formal part of the county structure plan, and that would strengthen it enormously. But because g two can't become a, a structure plan issue, I was wondering if the erm, environmental strategy of this council, when it is adopted, er, er,wh when it's formulated and, and, and, and adopted, er, could that be incorporated as an appendix to the county structure plan. I think there are a variety of ways Mr Chairman, in which our environmental strategy, when it's formulated, could be publicised and that's one way forward, and I wonder whether director could perhaps incorporate an argument for or against that,i, in, in,i, in the paper that Councillor has suggested. [Coleman:] Thank you Mr. I'm going to bring Mr in in a minute, but I think Mr. [Chalk:] Firstly chairman, er er, a comment about the district auditor, I do find it a little perverse, that in fact on the last subject when we were talking about small schools, he doesn't take into account any other erm, item than the financial argument. And then suddenly we find the district auditor making comments about an environmental strategy, which I would have thought was, if he worked on the basis of the last one, rather outside his remit. Erm, I, I think sometimes if he's prepared to talk about such things as this, he should be prepared to consider the advantages to villages of, of small schools, and not just work on the financial item. Erm, when we look at the environmental strategy, I always think that environmental strategies are common sense to people, and that sometimes the involvement of large organizations is sometimes counter-productive. Erm, comment was made of c thirteen, we do when we design our roads, actually already put catchment areas in, so that if a lorry load of diesel happens to split on it that, that there are drains to hold it. I saw that when I, when we opened the Codford by-pass. Or went to it during construction. There are pits down the hill, as you come into Codford, which actually would take the contents of a tanker, if it, if there was an accident. So, already, these things have been done as common sense in the past. Er, and I just wonder why we're trying to re-invent the wheel sometimes at these things. It's probably, maybe member's ignorance that they don't know that, that already a lot of work has been done on it. But, we're in danger very often, with environmental strategies, of taking quick decisions, that are misguided. Erm, and I've been involved in lengthy discussion on behalf of certain people in the trade, one of the largest er, chains of superstores, do-it-yourself superstores. And some of the things that are coming through there, are common sense, some of the things are a reaction which erm, is mis-informed. But this is particularly in the timber trade. Timber trade world-wide is doing an enormous amount of work already to make sure that sustainable timber is supplied, and the horror stories are slowly going away, and a lot of people now do not buy timber in this country, from those countries who've got a bad track record, but are buying from countries like Denmark and Sweden, where it's a national law on their forestry policy. I, I, I believe that a lot of work's going on. I think we have to be very careful we don't take reactions which actually negate some of the work and the common sense that has been undertaken at the moment. [Coleman:] Mr [speaker003:] Thank you chairman. If I could just briefly address three or four of the points. Firstly Miss 's correct. It, it isn't being approached very vigorously at the moment, er in a general sense because of two things. One is, none of the departments are resourced to give this a lot of attention, and secondly we have been waiting for further guidance from the Government on the outcome, particularly from local government, in respect of agenda twenty-one. Now this week the Government are publishing four papers on, and I quote, The U K's Government first strategy for sustainable development. So Miss 's point is very appropriate to bring a report back to a future committee in the near future, er, that covers the queries that have been raised by members, and the Government's new policies or new proposals, I will take instructions from the Chief Executive on that, and will, er subject to the Chief Executive's review, also cover matters such as structure plan, and the co-ordination of this er, within, within the local authority. And, to try and give options for members, at different expenditure levels of how we may move forward, because it isn't a cheap process, or not if we follow the Lancashire model it isn't a cheap process, but of course we can scale our proposals down. So subject to me taking advice from the Chief Executive, er I feel we can do what members require. Thank you chairman. [Coleman:] May I just I think that this has all party support, erm, the actual scheme was produced, erm,f and if the Government is a signatory to that, erm, unfortunately the signatory to it was the environmen,environmen, environment minister Tim Yeo, who has now departed but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] it, you know, it does have, it does have Government, Government support, so that it isn't, we're not trying to do anything which erm, the Government isn't supporting as well. And, er, you know, that's just, so that Mr is aware that we're trying to do what John Major agreed at Rio. Okay, I er, we've got a motion, let's put it to the vote. It's paragraph seventeen, eighteen and the additional item added by Miss about a report to the April meeting on what action can be taken to implement the District Auditor's recommendations, and from what we've heard I think that report will also contain reference to today's, the correct response to today's Government four papers erm, on the policy with regard to the Rio summit. And I hope that, and indeed the point about the, the er, what might be added from the environmental strategy into the structured plan, which Mr made. Erm, so we'll look forward to that report, er, those in favour of the recommendations please say aye. [speaker001:] aye. [Coleman:] And the against. They're carried. Miss. [speaker001:] Thank you. Erm, as the person who mo, moved the original motion, I would be very happy to move the recommendations, and to thank Mr, Mrs, Mr and Mr, who are the only members here present who voted for it at the time. Erm, it has actually worked, erm, in that it seems that there's a very fair chance that er, in spite of the very discouraging things that were said by some of the people on my right when I moved this, erm, there is a very good chance now for a reasonable er, settlement in South Africa, which I think should erm, make everyone in this chamber very happy, and it is that, undoubtedly the case that economic pressure had a great deal to do with that. Thank you chairman. [Coleman:] Miss moved. [Small:] You have already second, but I was going to second it, and say how very pleased I am to have the opportunity to second it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] Those in favour, please shout it. [speaker001:] aye. [Coleman:] And the against. That's carried. Item twenty, funding. Er, we have erm, [Chalk:] Thank you chairman. Yes I would. Erm, and in fact I would move my original motion as an amendment to yours. And the reason I do that, is that er, I believe that you've er, actually misunderstood what is going on, and I alluded to some of that during the debate earlier, on the budget. I think it's wrong, in paragraph a of your motion, to say the police committee has received privileged funding. It's privileged if you don't want it maybe. The funding, was a matter of assessing priorities, and each time, when that assessment came, the police were prioritised as to receive the funding that was thought correct to undertake the duties that they do in this county. And we know that through that period, there has been a steady increase in the number of police officers the county have got, and this county has always up to now, willingly funded those police officers. Part b of your motion. Yes we know that from the first of April ninety-five it will probably no longer be the responsibility of the county council to set a budget for the Wiltshire police authority. That's all the more reason why you should not be cutting their budget below what they need for next year. You've used, er, er, an underspend from this year rolled over, but you haven't increased the base budget to pay for the projection costs which came from erm, this year's budget. And we all know, that if you put the police into the er, budget next year, in at a low level, that is the level which the Government will assume this county council thinks is correct to fund the police force. So your under-funding next year, and your use of the rollovers, will actually have a long term effect on the funding of the Wiltshire police force, and I suggest that there'll be problems er, ahead on that basis. You refer in part d erm, to recent Government announcements which you say will make the fight against crime less effective. A freeze on the number of police officers, but we know that through the review of the police ranking system, that the Home Secretary has said that will mean a considerable number, and I think the figure of two thousand was mentioned, extra officers will be back on the beat. That's where the public want to see them, not sitting in offices pushing paper. The reduction in the paperwork undertaken by officers will mean a further number of police officers back on the beat, where the people of this county want to see them. Not pushing paper in headquarters and divisional headquarters and police stations. But the announcement made by the Home Secretary went further. And it went further into things like, erm, giving more thought to the problems of the victim, and a little less erm, consideration of the criminal who inflicts such terrible da er, harm onto their victims. I can think now of two elderly people I know, who never, ever got over a burglary. One died recently, but she couldn't ever come to terms with the fact that her house had been burgled, and that the er, that some of her most valued contents had been taken. And I'd want to know that the person who did that was going to be punished, and punished properly. And I think for too long, we've listened to the libertarians who want to think of the rights of the criminal all the time, and er, and don't worry too much about the victim. I think that the genetic er, testing that was, that is now law, has to go a long way towards finding criminals, who once they've been tested will find it very difficult to commit crime again, because they're on record, and they'll be on computer record. Many announcements made by the Home Secretary are moving in the way that I have always wanted it to move, and I believe that er, in Wiltshire this will have a very positive effect. We have already, we believe accepting in Wiltshire for two of the new parish constable erm, appointments. I only hope that the police committee will actually support those and get on towards introducing them, because that is a way of using some of the people in our village communities to erm, to keep an eye on the community and see that those people that shouldn't go round. I hear that maybe, we're not going to support that policy. I hope, and I shall be bringing it up at the next police committee, that we will commit ourselves to that initiative will a view to bringing in those two pilot schemes in the county and extending it at a later date. So chairman, I move my original motion as an amendment to yours. [Coleman:] Mr please. [Okinson:] Thank you chair. I erm, I think it's worth correcting some of the financial mistakes again, that Mr, and then perhaps give him some more facts on that. The paper circulated demonstrates that since eighty-eight nine through to ninety-three four, whereas county council spending as a whole has gone up by thirty-eight percent, spending on the police has gone up by eighty-eight percent, and that's more than double. Now I, I think that, you know, if Mr 's got any complaints about that, and he says that that isn't privileged, well I think he can only blame his own administration as well as anybody else's. I think surely we cannot deny the facts that the police have received very good funding from this authority, and indeed in this current budget they continue to do so. We've given them three hundred and sixty-four thousand pounds of extra funding, which we could legitimately have taken away as, particularly in the way that it was done, and as I understand it they er, revealed their V I P protection two months early to the Home Office, and therefore cut our S S A by a substantial amount, and I would even perhaps start that as a, as I could, as a series of criticisms about the way the police maintain their budget, and about the way that they have responded. It's perhaps the only committee, if one dare call it a committee of this council, where the chief officer hasn't troubled to come to the budget review and represent the interests of his committee. I can only take it that he wasn't that concerned, that perhaps the Chief Constable doesn't share Mr 's concerns, and is perhaps happy that he has received the generous funding that we state he has. It seems to me that he can't be that unhappy because he's currently managing twelve vacancies deliberately, in order to produce underspend so that he can re-surface his car park, maintain privileged restaurants for his erm, senior officers, chauffeur driven car for himself and build a new hangar for his helicopter. This produced, even despite that, two hundred and thirteen thousand two hundred pounds of underspending in ninety-three four on just general expenses, on operational expenses, now I think if, if the Chief Constable says he hasn't got enough money to do what he wants to do, he could start by spending all of the money he's had this year, in recruiting all the officers he's been allowed to recruit. I think in fact it's a bit of a cheek for the Chief Constable to go to the Home Secretary here ev, Home Secretary again this year, asking for more officers, when he hasn't recruited all the ones that he was given last year. And that's perhaps why he's been turned down. I, I don't think Mr 's actually got any very reasonable criticisms at all, and we must again say, as we often do to Conservatives now, who do you think's been running the country for the last fourteen or fifteen years? Are the dangerous libertarians, or do you mean Liberals, that you accuse of running the country? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Okinson:] Are the people like Margaret Thatcher? I hadn't noticed her being soft on criminals, soft on people. But I think the point that you're really missing is that only one in fifty crimes is solved. If you concentrate on punishing criminals, you're still leaving most crimes unsolved, and it is prevention that people are concerned about. Yes, it's prevention, you've got to prevent the crimes being committed, not just chase after the people and hang and flog them once you catch them. And I think that's the, the problem with your focus, because what has really happened, over the last, well I suppose since your government's been in power even, or even before. More and more money has been spent on the police, and it hasn't worked, and that's why everybody's looking round for new initiatives, that's why Patrick Sheehy who after all is chairman of a very successful commercial corporation, was asked by your government to put forward recommendations, that a lot of very unsuccessful police forces rejected out of hand. Your government didn't have any courage then to back up it's own man, and force through some changes, and so I don't know what your policy is, it seems to change every couple of years. But one thing you can't do, is criticise this county council at all, it's simply not our fault. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Chalk:] I certainly can criticise what Mr said. I'll just pick up, first of all one or two of the points he made. Erm, he, he, he er, decried the building of the hangar, in fact that resulted in an infinitely cheaper and better contract, saved a lot of money doing it. Er, I can assure him the Chief Constable more than shares our concerns about his,hi,hi, his under-funding. Erm, this idea that the police had more more money, yes they have had more money, what, what er, has been very conveniently ignored is the enormous amount of money we've had to spend on special protection duties. That is where most of the increase has gone. Now erm, Mr refers to er, er, privileged funding. This is a total distortion of the true facts. In fact erm, there's been less funding per head in Wiltshire, than many other authorities in the country. Until eighteen months ago Wiltshire, it's no use you keep saying it's not true. Until eighteen months ago Wiltshire was the most undermanned force in this country, and that's not our figures, that was the Home Office formula which produced that, and because of that eighteen months ago the Home Secretary actually granted this force an extra sixty- seven policemen and he gave none to anybody else. I think he gave one, one other county to be fair. And that was the reason why, and in fact the total shortfall, the total unmanning was something like a hundred and thirty-five hundred and forty, which is why the police authority has a bid in at this moment for a, a further sixty-eight policemen, which has in fact been backed by the county council, who are prepared to pay for it. Now the Home Office has said, the Home Secretary rather, has said this year that he's not granting any more policemen this year, but he also said that if county councils wished to fund more policemen, he would certainly look at that. The true fact is we are no longer prepared to fund them, because we've cut the police budget. And erm, looking then at base budget which has been mentioned.

[speaker001:] This the Tarmac Training Centre. We're recording for the National Corpus and we're testing at the moment for sound quality. The tape is currently running through to seven, seven, four. [speaker002:] Right, something is happening. Right. Right, so this is what we're thinking about this morning. We're thinking about problem solving and ways of solving problems, because you are a manager, then it's often down to you to solve the problems, isn't it? People are going to come to you, we've got this problem, what are we going to do? Now that's fine with normal everyday problems that you're quite used to solving. But sometimes, and in the sort of quite turbulent conditions that we work in now, problems are very complex, and very difficult. And it's not easy to find ways to solve them. And the tried and true w, tested [LAUGHTER], the tried and tested ways aren't necessarily going to be of any use to you. You want some new fresh ideas. We can get stuck in tramlines. So some of the things that we're going to be looking at this morning is ways for you to use, that the people working with you can come up with some new ideas, but you can also use these ways yourself, because sometimes you don't have the luxury of people to help you with your problem. So we, we're going to look at those sorts of things this morning. The first thing we're going to think of though, are the roles of people that you have in your team and how they might be able to help you in solving the problems. We're going to work through the Belvin test. Anybody done the Belvin test already?... Yes,, oh, right. Well, the Belvin test is, it's quite straightforward when you come to do it. It's one of these things that sound much more complicated than when I explain it to you. You find you have, I think it is seven questions, and each of the questions gives you various answers. You have ten marks for each question or each statement, and you allocate the ten somewhere around there. You might think that E is so important to you that it's ten, and that's quite alright you can do that. Or you might decide you're going to put two there, two there, two there and spread out the ten. You can do it however you like. It is up to you. Now in this test you cannot be wrong, because you're looking at personality, so how can you be wrong with your personality? I'm not going to ask you what you are, it is for you alone to know, so have a look at it, work your way through it, allocate your ten marks to each of these questions.... You should end up with er, up to question seven. Right. O K, yes...., Right, I'm now going to hand out the score sheets for you, don't worry about the initials at the top of the columns, because they will become clear as we go on. So all you do now, you look at the questions that you've answered, and let's say for question one, you gave erm, a two to G, the two goes in there, one to F, you move along there, three to H, you move along there. So you move along each question first of all, and then you total up afterwards. Then I will tell you what each of these initials.... As you add it up, you'll find that some columns are very low, they may have nothing in them at all, that, that's alright. you may get one very high, again that's alright.... Right, right then [LAUGHTER] [clears throat] I just agree with that's all. Right, have we all got there then?. Now what I'm now going to do, I'm going to tell you what these initials are, so if you, on the back of the piece of the paper, you make some notes, because some of these obviously are going to be what you, your personality is, but you also need to note, if you look at the type of things that you can expect from different people in the teams, or the strengths and weaknesses that some people may have in your team. So we start off with the first one that you have, this C W, that stands for company worker.... and the role of the company worker is to turn concepts and plans into practical working procedures. [clears throat] Excuse me. Turning con, concepts and plans into practical working procedures... and the attributes that these people have is [clears throat], you know company workers, or you are one yourself, is that they have self-control, self-discipline,... they're realistic,... common sense,... but, there's always a but side to these things isn't there? Erm, they can lack flexibility..... The next one then, number two on your list, C H is for the chairman,... Chairman, and the role of chairman, is controlling the way in which a team moves forward towards the group objective.... The strengths that these people show are an ability to command respect,... and to inspire enthusiasm.... They're usually good at communicating.... [speaker001:] Inspire, sorry? [speaker002:] Erm,in, sorry, enthusiasm. [speaker001:] Inspire enthusiasm. [speaker002:] Yes.... and they're good at communicating.... But then it's not necessarily very creative. Nor does, do they need to have good intellectual powers..... Then we have number three, the F H, who's a shaper. [speaker001:] What shape? [speaker002:] Md.... And their role is to set the objectives and priorities for the team... and to impose shape or pattern on discussions and activities.... [speaker001:] Will shape and pattern? [speaker002:] On discussion and group activities.... Their strengths are that they will have drive and self-confidence,... and the weaknesses, they're intolerant towards vague ideas and people.... [speaker001:] Vague and? [speaker002:] Vague ideas and people.... You know these airy-fairy types who've got no, you know, bothered with those. Er, number four then, the P L, is a plant. [speaker001:] How do you spell it? [speaker002:] That's right you've got it. Yes. A plant.... And it's the role of the plants is to bring new ideas to the group,..., change the approach to problems... and the strengths that a plant has is that they're often independent,... with high intelligence. [speaker001:] That's what's called a relative computer. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And a lot of imagination and they're a pain to work with.... And the reason that they're a pain to work with, is because they can be impractical... and not very good at communicating with other people..... Number five,... er, resource investigator is R I,.... Their role is to explore and report on ideas, developments and resources outside the group. Explore and report on ideas, development and resources outside the group..... They create external contact..... And the strengths of this sort of person is they're er, often outgoing, relaxed personality,... [speaker001:] Like what sort of person? [speaker002:] Outgoing and relaxed personality.... They're very inquisitive.... [speaker001:] Like some management [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I'll be polite,... and er, they, their weaknesses, the problem is, they can be over-enthusiastic and not follow on, on things..... Number six the M E is the monitor evaluator.... And their role is to analyse problems... and to evaluate ideas. Their strengths are that they have a critical thinking ability. [speaker001:] What's that? [speaker002:] Their strengths are that they have a critical thinking ability... and they can be objective..... Their weaknesses they can be hypercritical,... and over-serious..... Number seven, it's the last one, is it seven? [speaker001:] Oh, no there's two to go. [speaker002:] Oh, eight, O K. Right, er, the T W is the team worker.... and the role of the team worker is to support members of the team by building on their suggestions,..., they improve communications and foster team spirit.... The strengths of these people are that they are flexible,... popular,... and they have good listening skills..... But they can lack decisiveness.... and they dislike friction and competition..... The last one then, erm, C P is the completer.... and their role is to see that the team is protected as far as possible from mistakes... and they also maintain a sense of urgency within the team.... The strengths that these people show are that they have an ability to combine a sense of concern, with a sense of order and purpose.... [speaker001:] What's that? [speaker002:] They have an ability to combine a sense of concern, with a sense of order and purpose..... They can be impatient,... and intolerant towards people of a casual disposition and habit..... Now if you go back and see what your scores were, and you say no, that's not me, I'm not a bit like that.... But I know somebody who is like it... That's the sort of thing you say, no I'm not like that, but I know people that I work with who are like it.... Anybody find that it absolutely like they are? You know they're a really good description of their character? Oh, good, good. It's very well known this test, [clears throat] the Belvin test, it is very well known. Erm, it's used a great deal, erm, as we the sort of people's work as they work in teams. Now then, what sort of people do you think it's most important then to have in a team, because you'll only have a very small team? Who would you pick to be in your very small team of say perhaps four people? [speaker001:] Chairman [speaker002:] Bob said he'd have a chairman, yes, to er, pull the whole thing together. [speaker001:] It seems to me you need a shaper don't you? You've got to have somebody that's, that's obviously going to save a mortice lock to you. [speaker002:] Hopefully yes. What is going to be good at solving their problem? [speaker001:] Doesn't it depend what the team's objectives are? No [speaker002:] It would do yes, but w,wo, imagine that they're there because the team's now for solving problems. [speaker001:] You need a company worker. [speaker002:] Somebody to get the work done, yes. [speaker001:] Monitor evaluator? [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] And [speaker002:] Somebody that I said was very difficult to work with, or can be. [speaker001:] Plant [speaker002:] A plant yes, because if you're solving problems you want somebody to come up with some good ideas to get you out of your rut. This is what you want. So those are the sort of things that, those sort of people that you definitely want. And then, you know you think well erm, this sort of the area we're going, I might look for a person, you know, particular types of person. You look at the others, then so who do you particularly want in your team. If you ever get to this wonderful stage of being able to pick your own team, it would be marvellous wouldn't it? And of course, [LAUGHTER] That's right yes, make them do the test first [] [clears throat] and of course, you may very well need some specialists depending again on as we said, whatever your team has got to do. That they would fit in as well. Well that's, that's the one test, the Belvin test. There is another test that I want to refer to, that we can't actually do, because you have to be qualified to do this test, and it's very, very complicated, and all the rest of it. Just let me explain what it is. Has anybody done the K A I test?.... No, nobody's done the K A I test. Right I'll just explain quickly what it is then. It was devised by erm, a man called Michael Curtain, and it's the er, Curtain Aptitude... I've forgotten what the I's for now, oh, well anyway, it's probably it's deducted in the basis. And what he says is that you can see people on a continuum. Now what I can't explain why, is that he starts with thirty two, now whether he sort of gets muddled up with the sort of the system of something I don't know, but for some reason best known to himself, he starts with thirty two, and the continuum goes up to a hundred and sixty. He maintains that when you do this test, which will show how you approach problem solving, you will be somewhere along that continuum. Most people are in the hundred, the eighty or hundred and twelve. Most people fit in around there. It's quite interesting when they get people to do this test erm, if they fit into certain categories, depending upon their job as well, it's almost, it is strange, that you do get erm, say solicitors to do it. Most solicitors would fit in a certain category, but if you go to another group of people, they would fit in, engineers, they would fit into another category. Which is, is quite interesting the way it actually works out. And what it's saying is your, the pattern of behaviour that you're likely to adopt when you come to do problem solving. Now down at this end then, these are the adapters, and at this end, these are the innovators. So it depends on what your score is when you actually do the test. Now how you'll be when you're seen as being more of an adapter, or more of an innovator. It's very good to compare how people see you, because if for example, your score came out we'll say at a hundred but you work mainly with adapters, the innovators who were up here, they're going to think that you're an adapter. It very much depends on the people work with. But on the other hand say you're a hundred and you're working more with adapters they're going to really think you're a strong innovator. So you have to bear that in mind as well. So what's the difference between them then?... We can give some way to describing these people, this is how adapters are generally seen. They're seen as being reliable, they'll use a standard approach so that when they come to solve a problem, what do we, what did we do before? Let's tackle it as you've done before, you know, this, this was safe, this was good, we know it works. Things like that. They'll improve on it, or they might adapt it, see if they can change it in some way in that case, and they'll act in a cohesive way. We don't want to be falling out with people, and they don't work well together, and it is important to adapters. They're cautious, and they're practical. They do all the things the description's given for adapters. Innovators on the other hand, they're all right down here, are seen as being undisciplined. They will challenge assumptions, so when the adapters go, we've always solved the problems like this, the innovator will say why. Why do you do it like that? Well it works. It's. Yes, but why? You know, they sort of really rub people up the wrong way. They will refrain. Well let's look at the problem in a different way then. Let's turn it on it's head. There must be another way of looking at things. They're often abrasive, they're not bothered about getting on with people, that isn't important to them. Challenging, go for these problems and find a way of solving it. They don't mean to upset people, it's not they go out to be particularly, you know, horrible. But they're, they're seen as being abrasive, because that is a part of their code to really get on with people. They'll take risks [whispering] Let's do so- and-so, and have a go at doing it this way [] And they're often idealistic. So you can see when you get these two people together, it can be very difficult if you've got them in a team. Especially if you get them at the, the far end of the continuum. But you also need them in your team, because if you're trying to solve a problem that is difficult, or what's called a messy problem, we'll come back to nice messy problems in a minute, you need somebody to come up with some good ideas, some ways of solving it. And having done that, you then need some people, in fact, so you do need the two types of people and if you are the team leader, you have to find some way of getting them to work together. It is that, it isn't necessarily an easy thing, because these, these innovators are seen as being undisciplined and unrealistic and you know, they have these airy- fairy ideas. We'll do so-and-so, and they walk away and leave it, and the adapters they say, they see the adapters as stick in the muds, ooh, they all do the same old thing, ooh, it's boring and that sort of thing you see. So it, it isn't an easy thing but you do need to attempt to bring the two together for the benefit of team and solving the problem. An easy way of sort of getting round it is to say that adapters do it better, and innovators do it differently. This is how they er, tend to compromise with it. Any idea what you think you might be if you look at that, look at some of the questions, some of the descriptions? When I said that we would need a plant in our team, then would he be seen as being more of an innovator? The plant would be like that. It's very interesting test, Curtain says, he maintains that once you've done the test, you know, and you find out what you are, you are that forever. Other people say no this isn't the case because you change, then you come and do your work within your circumstances. [speaker001:] It depends on what you're working on as well [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] You wish you could [speaker002:] Yes, yes, he, he sticks this out, but other people are sort of beginning to challenge him and say that, you know this isn't necessarily the case. It also seems to be that it's different in different cultures. So you know, get say people from this country and America doing it, and they would come out different say to people from Japan, because their culture is different and certain different things are expected of them. But it, it, it is interesting, and I, in any case, we still need these two types of people, it doesn't change that. Because what we want to do when you're solving your problem you want to diverge and converge. It's important that you use both of these types of people in that sort of way. So you throw the problem in, you get as many ideas as you can. If you see, throw it wide open, so it can safely give you lots of ideas, and then you can say to people who are adapters, right now what can we do with these in five years? How can we adapt them to the problem that will, the situation we're in. So that's what you need to be doing when you're with your team. We now want to be thinking about, oh, let me show you the er, I nearly forgot. This is a description then, of the adapters and innovators. So the adapters are attempting to get up the career using sort of tried and tested ways of digging and sort of hauling each other up, and this sort of thing. The usual way that you might attempt to get up a er, tree. Where as innovators say that's boring, er there's got to be better ways of doing it you see. So they have to do it, to be shot through a cannon, and off a see-saw and various things like this. You know with a balloon, there's just got to be a better ways of doing it instead of having to use boring ways. That's just a very you know, graphically describes the difference between the two. And it says then it isn't anything to do with intelligence or anything like that. You get people from all sorts of walks of life, who can be in these different ways. We're going to imagine now then that you are in a situation where you've got to solve a problem. A problem that's come your way and it isn't the usual problems that you can quickly find an answer to. This is what's known as a messy problem. You don't really know what it is. It's so woolly that you don't even really know what this problem is. You've got to get into it, to find out what's going on. And there are four phases to this type of problem solving. And you can use different techniques in each of the phases. And as I said, you can use these techniques with your team, or you can adapt them to use them on your own, because you don't always have somebody to help you.... I'm going to give you examples of some of the things that you could, if I can find anything to write with, yes, some, some methods that you can use, because there are lots of methods that you can use in problem solving. It's a very, very exciting field, it really is, there's lots of work being done on it, it's extremely exciting. I'm just going to give you a couple of things that you can use for each of these phases, and when you get used to them, you can really spread out and do all sorts of other exciting things. You know, sky's the limit with this. So, the first one then. Let's imagine somebody wonders in to John Major one day and he says you know, I've a bit of a problem John. Er, the er, we're losing confidence in us. Not, not too happy with what's going on. And he, all amazed, do think right, nothing relevant is happening. We'd better get a group working on it. So this group is going to get together now and think well, we're losing confidence in our party, but really what actually is happening? That's such a huge thing to say, that you can't begin to tackle it. It's a messy problem. So they've got to now begin to home in and find out what things they could start to tackle. So you start off, you put your problem in a box down here. Problem here.... We'll call it that for now, no-one's actually voting at the moment but it, it's covers the same thing you see. It's the same thing. Can't let this go on, they'll be in trouble if they let it go on. Right, so that's the problem.... What might have caused that?... Give me something that might have caused that situation to lose confidence. [speaker001:] Incompetence. [speaker002:] O K, incompetence. Somebody else say something. [speaker001:] Scandal [speaker002:] Scandal..... Is that how you spell it. It's amazing when you get it up, it can't be right. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is that it, just that? [speaker001:] financial [speaker002:] Right, I'm just going to call it finance.... [speaker001:] What about unemployment? [speaker002:] ... O K unemployment. [speaker001:] What the papers say. [speaker002:] We'll put media, I can't get it all in. [LAUGHTER] yes,... anything else?... there must be something else you can put up there to make it er, [speaker001:] Foreign policy. [speaker002:] Foreign policy, that'll do.... [speaker001:] Stronger competition. [speaker002:] Competition. [speaker001:] Stronger competition. [speaker002:] O K [speaker001:] Or popularity might be a better way of looking at it. I don't know. [speaker002:] ... Right, let's see if we can find some things that come up here. Somebody else might leave it on their own just there. What else can we say about being incompetent. Who is incompetent? [speaker001:] All of them, the Prime Minister. [speaker002:] ... I think you could give it, that one all to himself then. Right er, what about scandals? [speaker001:] That's about sex [LAUGHTER] It's back to basics. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] basics [] [speaker001:] I think it's about basics. [speaker002:] two things. [speaker001:] Normal basics. Skeletons in the cupboard. [speaker002:] Right or... [speaker001:] Unwanted children Single mothers [speaker002:] Only I think we're happy that you can put in profligacy. [speaker001:] Yes [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes,, get on there, what about the unemployment?... [speaker001:] Isn't there unemployment in the South? [speaker002:] Yes, that's to show it's regional, it is regional, if I just call it regional then. Get it, probably get it all on the board eventually. [speaker001:] Lack of apprenticeships?... Poor education?... No engineering future [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] This is all coming from the heart, [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] schools That's very popular Town [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We can't get much more in there, are you. How about finance then?... [speaker001:] Corruption Risk... ... Wage claims... [speaker002:] O K what about the er, foreign policy? [speaker001:] The situation with Europe. [speaker002:] I'm going to call it E C to get it in. [speaker001:] Foreign aid... [speaker002:] O K, I just hope we won't run out of space here. [speaker001:] Military cuts N A T O [speaker002:] Cuts... How about the strong competition? [speaker001:] There's no opposition to it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What else? O K, [speaker001:] They don't take advantage of the state of the economy. [speaker002:] If I said not take for granted in here... advantage. What about the media? [speaker001:] No control It seems they might like to get a lot of things. What can will we do now? Turncoats to traditions and [speaker002:] Right now, we've a lot there. Imagine then that there's this group of people, if, can you see now, it's made like a fish bone, and that, that's the whole idea, a fish bone diagram. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] As long as it's close [] That's the thing, as long as it's close. Now supposing then, this committee that John Major's set up do something like that, and they get that down on paper. Get together for discussion and they get that down on paper. Obviously they can't do everything all at once. They might think to themselves, what is the most important thing for us to home in on first of all? Controlling the media, yes. Once you get that down, this then becomes the area that they might think, let's do something about that. Because it's the media that's got them on the run isn't it? Every time they open their mouths, they're there and they're doing something about you. It amazes me that they don't use it, they don't use the media in some way. But when you first say you've got this problem, they're losing votes, the media isn't necessarily the first thing that's going to come to your mind. You might. But it's only by sort of putting it out like this and thinking yes, the media wants to talk about this, talk about that, talk about the other, you know, they are in this case the most, the likely thing to be adding to the problem. And they are something that they could probably do something about. Try and get them on their side, or work on them or something. We don't actually want them gagged, do we, but er, it might come to that in the end might we? So that's one way of trying to, when you get your messy problem, and you think I don't [clears throat], I don't know what it is, I don't know what's going on, I can't really get into it. Do something like that. Draw it up, and here we just took suggestions from everybody, but what you can do, if you're on your own, write it down on a piece of paper, and ev, when every time something occurs to you, you put it down. Over a period of days. We're not saying you've got to do this in five minutes. There isn't any time limit. You might say, by the end of the week I'm hoping to get that completed, and I'll, then I'll see what I've got. So that's how you go, using the fish bone diagram..... Or you can build up a tree. Anybody want to suggest a problem? You know, something that really is big, that's major to go at. Having solved the problems of the Conservative Party, I mean we, we could get very good at this aren't we? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Traffic in the city. [speaker002:] O K... Traffic in the city. We're saying that that is our problem then. Now we're going to start to look at, up here. If you look at the causes. What are the causes of this problem of traffic in the cities? [speaker001:] Poor roads No public transport [speaker002:] I'll just put public transport, because it's er, you, you'll realise it means that won't you. [speaker001:] Concentration of business people [speaker002:] Gosh that's a lot to say isn't it. [LAUGHTER]. Erm, [speaker001:] Business density [speaker002:] Oh good,... O K, any other causes you'd like me to think about? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Till you pass. Hours of business. Sporting events. [speaker002:] Hours actually would come off there. You can start now to get your, because this is your tree, this is your tree, here's your branches, and then you start to get your twigs coming off, the way do, so, so and that also, you see that, that can link up with, like that can't it? Erm, did you say, er sport? [speaker001:] Sporting events [speaker002:] Sporting events. So that'll still come off here, wouldn't it?.... O K anything else that we might want to say around those things, that go off. [clears throat] [speaker001:] Airport locations... [speaker002:] Any twigs coming off there? [clears throat] [speaker001:] The way people see it, erm, that just one person in a private car, seen Taxis are a nuisance, parking of. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That was, would you put that on it's own, or would you put that with something else now? [speaker001:] It goes with the transport section It probably goes in the Lack of investment [speaker002:] And that will go with that, but also go with roads wouldn't it? O K, roadworks. [speaker001:] Political working, deregulation [speaker002:] Where would you put that? [speaker001:] Under control [speaker002:] Put that one in here, a twig in here. [speaker001:] Three days of spring [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] how untrue [speaker002:] Right, well let's say we can go on and go on obviously with this. Now we want the consequences, down the bottom of our tree then.... Oh, what would be the consequences do you think of this, prediction? [speaker001:] Unhealthy residents From, from, from pollution [speaker002:] Is that, that going to, coming from pollution really isn't it? I'll just put poor health. [speaker001:] Cost, noise [speaker002:] That's another thing to do with pollution really isn't it. [speaker001:] Stress [speaker002:] Out of pollution. [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] Accidents... Economic er, Economic resources. [speaker002:] Erm, that had better come over here really hadn't it. Erm.... Let's call it just economic you get to the point of going on before you. Right anything you want to take off some of these things then? [speaker001:] Children, risk to the children. [speaker002:] And old people, and people [speaker001:] Damage to property, perhaps [speaker002:] With accidents, or pollution? [speaker001:] Both [speaker002:] Both? [speaker001:] Both probably yes. There's crime in traffic in cities now. They've got this new thing. Mugging of one in a car, you know Jamming, car jamming of people, yes I can't think of it as fashion I believe it's more hard to get [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That really is er, a separate thing isn't it, the er, the crime?... you, you, you see the sort of things that we're doing. You, you, you build this up, now, and then you get to the point where you're going to say to yourself, well, do we have to do anything about it? Is it really something that is important? Somebody's coming here to look, what is the problem here? And when you do this, you can say to yourself, you can see is it really something that's important. Now the consequences of leaving it, are what makes you decide whether it's something that's important, and therefore you've got to do something about it. And if somebody came to you with those sorts of things, you'd think to yourself, it can't just go on, and gradually just build up and build up. So then again, you start to look at the causes, and the, the big sorts of things. You want to start out, and try and work in with your tree. Home in on a cause that you can do something about. You can't tackle that problem just as it is. Again it is a messy problem. It's all sorts of things contributing to it. So you highlight all these things, and then you might say, right in this town, in this city, we're going to concentrate on, and you pick one thing. It might be [speaker001:] Build a bypass. [speaker002:] Yes, a bypass, yes. There's money to make But it, this is such a difficult problem, you can't just anything about it, so let's get the cars out. Yes, that may be what you decide to actually do. You may say, let's improve the public transport, and let's have er, park and ride. And then, and that, that may solve all sorts of problems for you, if you were going to do that sort of seven days a week, let's say from seven in the morning until, I don't know, nine at nigh, at night or something. That might solve a lot of problems. You've got, you'd have to decide, but by looking at that, you could then start to tick off the things that that would help to solve. So that's another way for you to decide which bit of the problem you're going to actually start on. Before you really get down to doing anything, you've got to look at the problem, and, and really sort of try and analyse what is going on, and what bit of the problem are you going to work on. Once you've done that, you've said right you'd like to go on, the problem we're going to solve is not John Major's, something to do with me here. That's our problem, that, that's what we're really going to home on first of all. Me, here. Here you might say what we're really going to solve, look at now, is public transport. So you have your group sitting round and you say, this is our problem now that we're going to actually home in on. So now you're on to phase two. Of really generating solutions now to solve that part of the problem.... And what you want, you want people to come up with as wild as ideas as possible. You don't want safe, tried ideas. You want somebody to come up with some divergent ways of thinking. Lateral thinkers. And when they come up with something which you think, oh, stupid idea. The daftest thing to say, you don't actually say this to them, you think oh hello, perhaps we can adapt that, perhaps it's going to lead into something else. Remember I said you've got to have these sort of safe, situations with the people that work for you. Open communication and they can say something like well why not kill off half the population, and you think well how stupid a thing. I don't know, perhaps really like to relocate people, you know, that might be something which came as one of things they did wasn't it, in the fifties and sixties. They actually relocated people out of cities, they didn't really kill them off, just put them somewhere nobody else wants to be. Things like that. So these are the sorts of things that you want to be looking for. So, some of the best ways of doing this is brainstorming. Everybody used to brainstorming? It's really easy, very easy. What you do, you have your group together, and you have a facilitator, somebody that presents the problem, and you also have somebody that's going to be the scribe. All their job is just writing. You either want er, a white board like this, or several flip charts, and you, you sit round and you tell them that they can say anything they like, no holds barred, and nobody's going to criticise anything they say. The problem is presented to them, and then they think about it for a minute, and then they say anything that comes into their head. And I mean anything. and the scribe just writes it up, as fast as he can. As long as he can write fast and legibly and they write it up as fast as he, they can. And the, the idea is that it's quantity that breeds quality. Because the more ideas you get, the better your problem solving is likely to be. If you only get a few ideas, you've only got a few things to look at. Whereas the more ideas you get, the more things you have to look at, the more chances you've got of getting something that's really good and unusual. But you don't at any stage say, what did you say that for, you know, something like that, you just don't do that sort of thing. You allow people to say what they like, write it down, you have to set a time limit because people get tired, it is a very sort of, it takes a lot of energy to do this, and concentrate on it. So you set your time limit, right we'll have say twenty minutes, half an hour at the most, then you stop and look at it, and say anybody want to add anything else. When you've finished, you just tear off all your flip charts, and put them up round the room or something so people can Right then, we're on to stress. The thing that nobody was worried about. Remember your objectives, nobody was concerned about stress were they? Let's see then. First of all, I want you to write down, the first words that come into your mind, the first say half a dozen words that come into your mind when you think about stress.... [speaker001:] This is stressful [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh we haven't started yet [LAUGHTER]. [clears throat]. Let me say now, that most of things that we do in this part of the course, I don't ask you to tell me what you've written down, stress is a very personal thing, your reaction to it, so don't worry, you write down anything that you want to write down, because it is for you. Right, now have a look at what you've written, and ask yourself the question, is it negative?... Almost everybody will have written down negative aspects of stress, because that's what we think about whenever anybody mentions stress, it's always bad. It's bound to be bad. We want, first of a, think first of all that stress in necessarily all bad. The definition that I work to is this one. [reading] A stressful circumstance is one with which you cannot cope with successfully or believe you cannot cope with successfully [] That's the important thing. How much results in unwanted physical, mental or emotional reaction. It's the belief bit that's important. What's stress to one person isn't stress necessarily to another.... We want to look at stress now, and realise that it is not all negative, in fact some people actually go out and seek a fair amount of stress. And you'll see why in a few moments.... Have a handout and we'll look at the different types of stress [clears throat]... [speaker001:] I've got two sets, two different sets, it doesn't say. [speaker002:] Problems, Problems? [speaker001:] It's a bit stressful this, isn't it? [speaker002:] Oh, it is very stressful yes, [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, you, you hang on to those, and these will come round later on. These, these will worry you later. How.... yes, you've picked up two lots sorry.... O K,... let's look at the three faces of stress.... These may be very, likely some of the words that you've already written down. The negative side of stress is also called, cause dis-stress. Things like worry, pressure, fear, pain, fatigue, insomnia, illness, all these sorts of things. It's all the negative aspects of it,.... And then we get what's known as neutral stress, these are conditions really that can cause stress, but it's stress that could go either way.... Change for example, can be very stressful when you work through it, in your private life, or in your family life. A lot of people don't like change, and yet we don't want to stay as we are. Crisis again, can be very worrying as you go through it. Money, well they tell me that people who have a lot of money are as stressed as those that don't have it. I've yet to be convinced of this, I'm still waiting to find out. But is one of these things, obviously you know, money does cause lots of worries and problems. Communication again, that can go either way. And people, a lot of your stress will be caused by people because they're unpredictable to control like that. And then we get the other sort of stress, the positive stress that's also called use-stress. A challenge, we like a challenge, we enjoy a challenge, we want this. Children, I'm, I wonder why children are in that column because I think that they can cause you, you know all sorts of other problems. Promotion, we go out to cause promotion, but when you first get it, it can be very stressed as you come to terms with your new situation. And marriage, again, it's something that we want. We look forward to it, but it, it can also have its other problems as well, doesn't it. And success, we want success, crave for success, we go for success, but you can be very stressed by directly doing it..... As I said, people go out looking for stress. They want it. How many times have you heard people say, I'm really at my best when I'm challenged. You know, when the chips are down, when the deadline gets near, that's when I work at my best. And this is, it is true for some p, it's true for a lot of people, that they really want to be challenged.... This is what happens. When people are not challenged they're here. Because tho, their performance is low, they're not challenged, and the, the you know, life is difficult isn't it? These are the people who're bored. They suffer from fatigue, they hear of housewives being stressed, and they say look at the stress of housework. It's because they're bored. There's no challenge to what they're doing. They get frustrated. Life, you know, it's miserable for them. What we want is to be working here. A high performance, and a, the amount of stress that is right for us. And then, we are at our most creative. We're good at problem solving [clears throat], we're really chal [clears throat], excuse me, we're really challenged when we have the right amount of stress for us.... We feel satisfied with life, because we feel we're getting somewhere. But what happens in most, many jobs, many situations? It's piled on isn't it? And then you come right down here, the stress becomes too great. We're over-stimulated. And this is where the illnesses come from, and it's because we can't cope, our self-esteem goes. We ought to be able to cope, we feel bad about things, and so we come right down here, withdraw and can't cope..... Precisely..... You might say to yourself, well, how serious is this problem, is it just another er, American thing. You know, they've done all these tests over there, for all these Americans that can't cope, is that what it is really, and somebody's imported it into this country. Is that really what we're talking about. No we're, we can cope here can't we? [speaker001:] We're alright. [speaker002:] No problems here. Well let's have a look at a few figures then, as to why we do need to consider it. They estimated that stress costs a thousand pounds per employee per year... to businesses. It's costing them a thousand pounds per employee per year. You might think, so what, that's alright, they put the pressure on, they've got to pay the price. So let's bring it down to a really personal level then. The average employee loses one and half years of their working life due to stress,... and very of, very seldom is it in one lump, because people have very severe breakdowns don't they? Very severe illnesses. Most of your working life, one and half years of the average employee's working life is lost is stress related. [speaker001:] How do they measure it? [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker001:] How do they measure it? [speaker002:] Looking at the di, the time you have off work. And why you have time of work [speaker001:] , a lot of people are not honest, to be non-productive at work as opposed to actually off work. [speaker002:] Stress, stress related illnesses. [speaker001:] People aren't always off work. [speaker002:] No but you see, you've got to look at the type of, we look at the type of illnesses that people suffer from in a minute, and sort of, you know, a day here, a week there, somebody has a month somewhere else. And of course, some people do have a large block of time don't they, because you know, they, they have very severe illnesses, and it builds up. But that's it, that's what, that's what the average is. So, it is something that we need to look at, and study. And what we're going to be looking at is what causes stress. Not at what it is, what causes it. How your personality is going to affect your reaction to stress. It's a very personal thing. We look at some ways of coping with it, and also recognising it in other people, because if you've got people working for you, and they're stressed, and they have time off work, you've got to carry things on, haven't you? You've got to keep things going, you've got to cope. So you need to know if they're stressed, and what you can do about it. There are certain things you can do about it. So what's happening then when you're stressed. We've looked at the different types of stress, what is happening to you when you're stressed. Any type of stress, what is actually happening?... [speaker001:] say that, I don't, I've got it wrong [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now our bodies haven't changed since caveman died. We evolved that far, and we haven't changed that much since. So let's think what happened to the caveman then. Life was very difficult for him or her, and they'd be out. A lot of their time was spent looking for food, wasn't it? I think that was how they had to be, and they'd be out in this very dangerous environment looking for food, and suddenly they'd be aware that they'd, the were coming. It's more dangerous because a mammoth was near. What can you do? [speaker001:] Run [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Most likely he's going to run isn't he? to get away. If he's really cornered, he might think well I've got to fight, I've got no way round it. But he's either got to run or fight. And certain things are going to happen in his body to help him to cope with that situation. These are things that will happen.... The sense organs, either his sight or his hearing tell him that he's in danger. There's something there that he's got to deal with. Immediately his heart rate increased. His blood vessels dilated or contracted in different parts of his body. Sweating increases, to cool him down. Saliva dries up, the pupils dilate, and many, many hormones are secreted into his bloodstream. Because he's got to cope with this situation. He's going to need a terrific amount of energy, and he's going to need it quickly, because he's got to deal with this very dangerous situation that he finds himself in. Unfortunately we don't meet many mammoths, but [speaker001:] Speak for yourself! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Imagine then you're out, you're in Wolverhampton, and you're about to cross the street, and round the corner comes a big lorry. What happens? Your sense organs have told you there's a big lorry. You've got to deal with it, you can't fight it. You've got to get across that road quickly. All those things happen to you, all those hormones, particularly adrenaline have got into your bloodstream because you need this sudden burst of energy to get you across the road. And that's right, and that's good and that's what you want. That's what you're aiming for, and you cope with the situation. [speaker001:] What about, the ones where, the situation is say about the people freezing, and they do nothing? [speaker002:] Well isn't that much sort of er, lorry. We'll come back on to that later on, because it, it, it, if this is what happens with you, because what's happening there is, you're not using the adrenaline, and we will, we're moving on to that where you don't use up the adrenalin. Yes, that's what happens. But you see, that's still going to happen isn't it? [takes a deep breath], Somebody goes, I, you know, I can't cope with the situation, you might be, I've got to stay here, I've got to stay here. But then you've not used it up, and so there's certain things that are now going to happen. And they can be, which is what we're going to move on to. Because when you do run across the road, you get to the other side, and you're thinking, good gracious, that was a close shave, I'll have to sit down for a minute, I think I'll have a cup of coffee or something. That was, really close that one was. O K then that's right, you go and sit down, get yourself together again, and get back to being able to cope with life. Now supposing it isn't you that crossing the road, but you're out with a young child. You're on one side of the road, and the child's on the other. And the child runs across the road in front of the lorry. What do you do when he gets there to you? [speaker001:] You shout at him. [speaker002:] You shout don't you. You sh, probably shake him. You just can't believe it, you know, you're sort of like this aren't you. Because all that happened to you, but you couldn't use up your energy, you couldn't help that child across the road, and suddenly you've got to get rid of all that, and you take it out on the child. How dare you do thing like that, you know, you're sort of, you, you just can't, you're almost beside yourself, as you're trying to use up all that adrenaline, all that energy that's poured into your body as you try to help that child across the road, knowing in actual fact you can't. And again, although it's not very pleasant for the child, because he's had this terrible fright crossing the road, then he's got this adult sort of, you know, looming over them and going mad as well. It, it helps you to use up this adrenaline, and that's what you want. Think of people that go to these dangerous sports clubs, what happens to them? They expect you to leap off you know, on bits of elastic? [clears throat] They're, they're suffering from this because they want to, they enjoy it. They get this great high. It's said to last for days even this great high that they get when they jump off [clears throat] and leap off these bridges or something on a bit of elastic. I've never tried it, and I've no intention of trying it. But it, think of things like that, because they, they've got to the stage where they can actually enjoy that. But, in our everyday life it isn't like that is it?... If we look at this chart here, this is you coming along here, you're just walking along quite happily, and you go to cross the road. This is when the lorry comes round the corner, and immediately you've got to respond. You get all this energy, cross the road, and then you go and have your cup of coffee and go and sit down, and gather yourself back together again. Build up your reserves, and you're back on the ne, level there. [clears throat] If I give you another example of that. Some years ago, er, my husband was on his way to work and he was involved in a car crash. It just so happened that he, you know, he was alright, and the car was a right-off. And somebody was following, a colleague was following, saw it happen, stopped and helped him sort of do what you've got to do to get the man's address and this sort of thing, make sure the car was alright, and took him into the office. That was first thing in the morning, at two o'clock he had to be brought home. There was nothing wrong with him, but he couldn't keep his eyes open. He was just falling asleep on his feet. Because of course he'd used up all his energies, everything in dealing with this, he was completely drained. Came home, went to bed, slept right through to the next morning, and then you wouldn't know that anything had happened to him. So that's quite normal, quite happy if you're body's coping well with that, that's what you'd expect. That's good, you're using up all the adrenaline, it's not remaining in your bloodstream. Fine. But you see life isn't like that, not everyday life.... O K. [clears throat]... This is one of those days. And you set out in the morning and you know this road, you know this road well. You travelled along it yesterday, there was nothing wrong with this road yesterday. But on one of these days, and you hit the road there's been an accident, somebody's dug the road up, there's something wrong and you're in a traffic jam. It's a day when you want to get in early. So there you are, you're stuck now in this traffic jam, and you know you're going to be late. They're waiting for you when you get to work, and you can't get on with whatever you want to do, you have interruption after interruption. [whispering] I'm never going to get this work done, I'm never going to get my act together today [] You know, as, as people say, it's one of those days. And then you think, right I'm really going to get settled down to something. I'll have this cup of coffee and I'm going to get on with it, and what happens? On these days, you're sort of, you're coordination goes as well doesn't it, and you knock the coffee flying, always over the company report. It never goes over something that's worthless does it? So you just get worse and worse and worse on these days. And then in the afternoon, there'll be some problem with the staff. They all come to you, will you sort out this, will you sort out that and the other, and you think, for goodness sake, can't I get something done here. You know, so all the time you're up here, like this, and then perhaps you stay to try and get some work finished before you go home, and as sure as fate, that's the day when you promised to take somebody out, when you go home, and you've forgotten about it. So you get in, and you walk in to a row. Know the situation? It's a bad day. When you get home, you say, I'm just sick of this day, I'm going to bed. But do you sleep? You're not in the mood to sleep are you? Either that or you run yourself around ragged, and you go to sleep and then we get to one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, and you wake up, and then what do you do? You start to think, well of course, had I done so-and-so yesterday, had I done, and I've missed on so- and-so, so you sort of, review the day for a couple of hours, and then it gets to about four o'clock and now you're thinking, Oh my God, I'm at the accountants the next day, I'll be so tired, I'll be you know, and it's too late to do anything about it now, so now you're having a bad day the next day as well because you've got yourself all stewed up about that. So this is what's happening, and we said the people that don't use up the adrenaline, the ones who decide to freeze and sort of try and cope with it, this is what's happening. All the adrenaline is now remaining in your system with all these other hormones, and this is what's causing the illnesses and the problems.... What do you do about it?... Well first of all, what can you do about being stuck in a traffic jam? [speaker001:] Not a lot. [speaker002:] Nothing, absolutely nothing, so instead of thinking oh, what am I going to do about this, and can I get round here, if I turn round here, can I get round these bends or something, no I can't, it'll all be sort of, no. Nothing. What a wonderful gift. Somebody's given you ten minutes. How nice of them. Somebody up above as said, I'll give that person ten minutes sitting in his car. Take them, turn the radio on, because there's nothing you can do. O K accept it, because the only person that's suffering is you. They will cope, they will cope these people... Nothing, absolutely nothing, so instead sit here and accept it, because I'm going to survive these days. m, Mr ek for the Chief Constable to go isn't [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] Now of course it'll come as no surprise to you to use up all your yeses. [clears throat]... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I suppose so. What's the problem here?... [speaker002:] Right these two men decided in the end there was a correlation between this, and they were able to put people into two categories. If you've got fifteen and above you're t [speaker001:] I've seen I've got one, there all noes. [speaker002:] Er, these are the A's, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm sorry to say these are the A's, I don't think there are any fifteen no's here. [clears throat] [speaker001:] What's an A one for? [speaker002:] Just, you're just known as an A one, I'll explain what it means in a minute. [speaker001:] A nervous wreak. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] If you will, yes, this is it, yes [] Erm, between ten and up to fifteen, you're an A two,... and five to ten, you're a B one, and below five is a B two, and I shouldn't think there's a single B two in the room. I have not had a B two here yet. If you are a B, I should ask somebody to do this test for you, because usually the people on these courses are A's, quite a lot of them are A one. And I can't decide whether it's, you're A types and you go into construction, or you're in construction and it makes you into A types. But I'm sure there's got to be something there, because it's amazing, most people are A types, and quite a lot are A one. Now then these people are the people, the A types of people who are going to suffer these stress related illness. This is why we're actually thinking about it. These are the types of illnesses that you're likely to suffer from. We'll start off on a real low now won't we? [LAUGHTER] Yes []. I need you to read the illnesses that you are going to be prone to. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] gosh, you're going to be some [LAUGHTER] I'm going home straight away, [LAUGHTER] I won't say when to do it, will I? You've got the bottom one? It's a crap report. What's hypertension? High blood pressure. [speaker002:] Hypertension, when you are, you know somebody that gets very sort of strung out by things, and you, then you sort of, you. The slightest thing sends you off, you know. Very sort of that's it yes. You know, if somebody says something to you, aargh, you blow up, and you know. Somebody looks at you in the wrong way some morning, you know, what's the matter with you, that type of thing you know. Some people are like that all the time. Right so is there a necessity to do something about it if you're an A type? Let me give you some other examples in case you feel there is some doubt because of course it's one test. It's not the only thing you need to do, there are some other things that I can say to you now that you might recognise. Let me give you some examples of A type behaviour which you might recognise in yourself or in other people that work with you. [clears throat] A type people are usually excessively hard driving and busy, bit of a lout, always doing something, A types. They're ambitious and they strive for upward social mobility. It's important to them because it proves where they are in life, they don't want to stay like where their parents were, they want to prove. They're very aware of time, they have an enhanced sense of time urgency, these are the people that never have enough hours in the day. Oh gosh, I wish there was forty eight hours in every day, and there were ten days in every week, and it's still no good, with forty eight hours, they'd still find enough to do, they'd still be racing around all the time. They're very competitive,. You're often seen as being aggressive and impatient, but you believe that your pattern of behaviour is responsible for the success that you've had. This is the way to do it. Now how did you get to be like it? Well of course, in our society we like people to be like this don't we? This is what we want. [speaker001:] [clears throat] victims of our [speaker002:] We have, but really, well they're alright, you know, in their little hut with their tray or something like that. Yes, maybe [speaker001:] Still got to have them, we've still got to have them [speaker002:] We have got to have them, but really the people we want to push the country on, you know because people have got to get us somewhere, these are the A types aren't they? These are what we want to do, you know, work hard and they do this sort of thing. See this is what we, we know we want them, but the ones that we really sort of look up to and reward are the ones that show these other types of behaviour. [speaker001:] Do you need more A's than B's? [speaker002:] You need a balance [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You probably need a lot more B's doing most of work, and the A's are buzzing around. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well we come round to what happens in a moment to As and Bs []. What happens is of course, you're so, very often socialised into behaving like this, ask yourself if your an A type, are your parents A types?... And what happens if you're an A type when you have children? Send these children off to school, they go to school, this is your opportunity in life, and you work hard. You're what we want, you work hard at school, and the child comes back and they say, had a test today, how did you get on? I got eighteen out of twenty. What did the others get? Was it an easy test? And how is that this child got eighteen? You know, because this, were they slacking in some way, why didn't they get twenty? What's the matter here? You see, and you keep, and they work hard. It's what I expect for you to be able to work, really hard, get your homework done, work hard in your exams, I expect you to go to college. You know, I want you to have the chances that I didn't have. All these things, pushing this child on. And in the end the child's internalising, I'm loved because I work hard, and this is what I have to do. If you work hard, you gain people's love and respect. [speaker001:] Rise to the top. [speaker002:] You do yes, of course, well yes. All these sort of things to make them work, as in you set out a pattern of behaviour. And that's what matters to make them work like they are. And if you've got A type parents you copy them, you do what they've done, they've worked hard, that is what to respect is. And this is how you've got to where you are.... You're prepared to work longer hours, to get the work done. You say to an A type, sorry I say you've got to work most of the night to get this done, they'll moan but they'll do it, B types turn round and say, no way. The A types will do it. The, they sort of have less sleep. If you want something done in a club, a voluntary club and things like that, go to your A types. They'll find the time. The people that do the most will always find time to do more, the B types, well can't you fit that in, you know. But the A types, somehow, yes, I'll do it. Unfortunately it's said you communicate less with your wives, I don't know if it's exactly true, but if somebody says to you, you never talk to me, you don't tell me anything, that's your A type behaviour. You go b, you can go back and say now, well it is my A type behaviour that's causing this you see, and see if that gets you anywhere. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] That's because you're always working and you don't have a chance. [speaker002:] That's right, yes, because you see that's the other thing, that I've got on here. [speaker001:] Stressed when you get up. [speaker002:] Work is more important than socialising to A types, so if you've got to make a choice between the two, it's the work. That's what you choose to do, if there's a choice, sorry, you know, I can't have this weekend away, I've actually got to do this job that I said, you know, a load of work or something. I don't know, we can't go to the cinema tonight because I've got to do this work I've brought home. [speaker001:] That's not a B type. [speaker002:] That's it, because you're an A type. Whereas the B type [speaker001:] I know which is more important [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] See this is it, straight down the line, yes, this is it, I won't ask you how many you've got, but I did see, notice the ticks [] Yes, this, this is it. And you, A types cannot see it in any other way. [speaker001:] You're almost better to be in a job first, get a few offers. [speaker002:] Yes, that's it, yes, yes. That's exactly how A types see it. Yes, I have to tell you, you're a temporary one. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is there any chance of being an A type [clears throat] excuse me, between eight and six, and, and a B type thereafter? [speaker002:] No, except, because your personality it's your personality [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'm not so sure, I'm not so sure [speaker002:] Well let's look at the B types. The B types have the ability to take a longer view of things. They'll stand back, oh, you know, the laid-back type, oh does it really matter. Oh, you know. Hey, go an get you know, get life and death. This is the B type. They're too like that you see. They don't expect things to be done perfectly. A types are often perfectionists. There's only one way to do a job, and that's the way I do it, and that's perfect. If I ask somebody to do something, that's why, the way I want it done. No oth, no other way to do it. You see, whereas B types would say, no, I can see that what you've done is acceptable and that's alright. And A types can't take this, and find it very difficult. You need to ask yourself, if you are an A type, and a perfectionist, what is the acceptable standard?... Are you working to perfection within your job? Are these jobs, that you are doing for your client absolutely perfect? No they can't afford it can they? [speaker001:] , It can't be done, it can't be done [speaker002:] No, no, so what you do, you agree an acceptable standard. And this is what you've got to do with most things that you do. Now I accept that if you're adding up a column of figures you can't say well it's within a few thousand well that'll do. That's near enough. There are some things that do have to be done to a certain standard. But most things do not have to be done to perfection. And B types can take that on board, and they. A types often find that quite difficult. B types aren't concerned about time. Time doesn't worry them in nearly the same way. You get these, sort of these painters you know saying, beautiful picture, how long did it take you to paint that? Oh, a hundred hours, a hundred and fifty hours. You see I couldn't spend a hundred hours on a painting and only ask that amount of money. You know, you say how much am I worth an hour, yes. A pound an hour, good gracious, I couldn't be working like that. You see, because they just look at it in a completely different way. [clears throat]. I mean it's very much again the way they've been brought up, because they don't feel that they've got to earn respect and love. Their parents are the ones who send them off to school and say, just do your best. We don't ask any more of you, just do your best. And they come back and they say, I had a test today, I got five out of twenty. But you did your best didn't you son? You tried, that's alright, that's what we want. We can't ask any more than that of you. Yes, that's how the child grows up, because they did their best. You put the two together of course, and it's going to be very difficult for A's and B's together. They will drive each other mad. Because they just see things in a completely different way. But we do need some B types. [clears throat]. What we do know is, of course, that if the A types continue as they are, they will be ill. There are certain things that they need to do, to learn to modify their behaviour. And you can modify your behaviour because you've got to try.... You know nobody was really concerned about stress before I started. didn't figure, didn't figure did it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No, no-one [speaker002:] No, no, I noticed this programme ages ago. [speaker001:] I'll give you that, I'll give you that, you know, when you go home, you should have known that. [speaker002:] I wonder why, I wonder why you get that when you go home, there must be certain signs. Right some things that you can do then if you're an A type.... Find some t, time in each day when you are idle, don't structure every single part of the twenty four hours, some time when you're going to sort of be, do nothing. We talk later on, sort of thing when I say do nothing, you're going to do something in that bit, but as far as you're concerned it's idle time. It's quite a good thing as well for A type people, is to read, read books. Because you say, no, I watch television to relax. I very much doubt it. You watch television, you can watch television with a, you know, quarter of your mind, can't you? You wa, if you think of those soaps, I bet, I'm convinced you could miss six weeks of the soaps and still not lose a minute of the plot. Probably yes, but what's really happening is, you're watching television and half your mind is taking it in, and the other half of your mind's thinking, when I get back to work tomorrow, I'm going to do so-and-so and so-and-so, because, yes, I'll do, and you're really chewing over the problems of today. So you're not really concentrating on the television, because you don't have to. I mean do you really care when you look at these game shows, and things like that, whether this person wins a car or a holiday, you know in wherever? Do you care? Of course you don't care. I mean, you know, you just, it's there isn't it, animated wallpaper. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You're just watching it, you see because it's on. You're not, it's not really relaxing you. But if you read a book, you've got to concentrate otherwise you're not going to follow the plot. You won't follow what's going on. This is why they say read. Do whatever you like, I'm not saying go out and buy War and Peace, because you know, if you don't, if you're not into the habit of reading, you pick up War and Peace, and by the time you get through the first page, you say who are all these people? Tolstoy litters them, you know, they've got thousands of people all with different names, so don't buy something that, you know, you don't really want to read. It doesn't matter, read Mills and Boon if you want to, I mean who cares. Barbara Cartland, you know, who really cares, so long as you're sort of thinking right, I've got to concentrate on this, because you know, have this different way of going about things. Right, try and see your life as work and non-work. Not just merging in together. This is work, this is non-work time.... Some of your stress may be caused by problems at home, particularly if say you've got teenagers. I can't think of anything worse. So if you've got teenagers, sometimes you've kindly got to say to them, look just go away, I want to be quiet, sitting reading my book or whatever. And ha, you know, ban them from the room that you're sitting in. Give yourself, you know, somewhere where you can sit quietly, and also give children the same opportunity, even quite small children need to be on their own sometimes. Some time in the day they need to be sitting quietly on their own. It's not the same situation obviously, so you have somewhere where you can be quiet on your own, reading a book, or whatever you're going to do, not idle, but. Know what your stress points are. Your body will tell you when it's had enough. One of the best ways of knowing, think if you have taken work home sometimes and you get to about ten, half past ten, and suddenly you think, God I've got a headache, or my neck hurts, my shoulders ache, those sorts of things. This is your body saying, er, I've had enough, I've had enough, I want, I want to change. Don't work through them. Yo, that's wrong. You say, O K, this is it, put it all away, because I've got to cope, I've got to survive in this life, so know what your stress points are and act on them.... Don't structure all your leisure types, your leisure time. You know the A types, they go on holiday, Monday, went and looked at so- and-so, Tuesday we did so-and-so, Wednesday we did, Thursday was really boring. Do you know, we sat on that beach all day Thursday, it was really boring, there was nothing to do on Thursday. But you need some of this time when there's nothing to do, and, you don't know what might happen. I mean today, the house, don't structure every bit of your leisure time. Allow things to happen. [speaker001:] I find that more stressful. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] This how you over everything... Well there's something in the background that you might do [] [speaker001:] What's [speaker002:] Er, Erm, another thing you might do, you might take up a hobby that you've got to think about. Something that's going to take your attention, because while you're thinking about your hobby you can't be thinking about work. Whatever it might be that interests you, but something that you've got to be thinking about, in your share time. Er, it can be a sport it can be some sort of activity, it could be going to evening classes, learning something. Whatever it might be for you, but something that you're going to have to be thinking about, and while you're thinking about that you cannot be thinking about work. This is the idea, this is, it's going to help you break up things into work and non-work. [speaker001:] There's also a lot of stress in hobbies, sport, because you're, you're sort of challenged, you want to win something, or, even your hobby, you want to get something right. [speaker002:] That isn't necessarily a bad thing. What we're saying here is you, you breaking the two away. [speaker001:] It's different. [speaker002:] It's different yes, you, you're breaking work and non-work because otherwise you break up, it becomes twenty four hours work. You see, you might say, well my hobby is gardening. You know, I, I maintain if you're gardening you're thinking about work, or you're not thinking about watering or whatever you should be doing in gardening. You can still be thinking about work. [speaker001:] Yes, and then you, and then you cut off your favourite plant in the garden. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Probably yes, but you see but if, if [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] For example, er, if for example, you were doing something, I don't know, say you s, said erm, I'm definitely going to go and learn another language, I'm going to go and learn German, let's say. So you go off to this evening class, while you're doing that, you can't be thinking about the problems at work, because you've got to concentrate otherwise you're not going to get it done. Or you might go to a sports club and meet some colleagues, or some friends there, and while you're training together you're talking, about other things, you see and again, you can't be, you're not thinking about work. This is the whole idea. Yes there is a certain amount of stress in competition, but it's er, in a different way. Yo, you're challenging all your efforts into a different way. Er, do one thing at a time, these A types who juggle all these different jobs, still can't get them all done. Yes, I'm very clever at doing all this. One thing at a time.... And seek to manage your time before other people do. You be in charge as much as possible of your time, and whatever it is you're going to do.... Now you might think well, what about all these people at the top then. All these A types that must be you know, top of industry in our society. Well another survey was done to look at these people at the top and see how they're coping, and a big surprise. They're not A types, and they don't know why. And they've come up with several suggestions. Either the A types are too busy doing other things, the wrong things, and they don't rise to the top, you know, you can't see the wood for the trees. That type of thing, or they were A types and they learned to modify their behaviour, and survived or the A types are dead before they get to the top. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] That's the way. [speaker002:] Giving the B's the stuff to get there. I'll leave you to choose which one you fancy. [speaker001:] In the higher, the higher up you go, you delegate it. [speaker002:] Yes, yes, but you, it's in a different frame of mind isn't it? And whereas you can see if you might have A type behaviour sort of lower down,, you think if you really want to rise, you're going to have to cope. So you modify your behaviour, delegate, see, take a longer term view of things. A fair bit of [clears throat] A fair bit of socialising comes in, things like that. So you, you've got to think about those, because if you want to survive, and you also want to go on. [speaker001:] What was the second choice [speaker002:] B, the m, they learn to modify their behaviour.... Er, we need to also think about erm, er, B types, because B types may not be being assertive, and I shall talk about assertive behaviour in a few moments. They, they may sort of be very submissive, B types, and therefore they can be stressed in a different way. So I'll, I'll talk about that in a moment. [clears throat] Right so what causes you to be distressed, stressed? Who or what causes you to be stressed?... Eighty to ninety percent of stress is self-imposed.... [speaker001:] Is it stress or frustration? [speaker002:] No it's stress because it's your, it's the way you perceive things. Because you can tell, you can have two people in a situation, one copes really well, sails through it, but the other gets really stressed, and goes down hill, and can't cope. It's to do with their personality, their perception of the event, their upbringing, their beliefs all sorts of things like that. But it is, you have to accept, you can't blame the boss, the circumstances you're in, and things like that, it is the way you react to it. This is what's causing stress. [speaker001:] I thought companies were ensuring that you wouldn't take that on, that stress. It appears that more or less the company would do it. [speaker002:] I would think it would, yes, I would think it would be people, more and more people are coming round today with the idea that people need to go away, send somebody to get something. Erm, B P for example, have gone in for what they call erm, a culture change. It's taken them two years. It's very, very, it's very, very difficult to change cultures in organisations, extremely difficult. They decided to take it on board, and as part of their culture change, they will not have people working beyond a certain time at night. And the manager goes round and switches out the lights, if there's anybody there they kick them out. Because the maintain that you need to le, a certain amount of time away from work to be able to cope with the situation that you're in, and you're, you're not going to be at your best at the time when they want you there. So I w, I haven't heard what they've said about holidays, but I would say they ought to say to people, if, if you know, if your allocated six weeks holiday, you take that six weeks holiday. Because you'll say to people, did you take all your holiday last year. And they'll say, well no I didn't manage to last week in or something. They've decided that you need that number of weeks holiday, then that's what you should be taking. And I think you'll soon find that more companies are coming round to thinking about this now, as, it is becoming more difficult and more challenging if you like, in working in the company. And people have got to be able to cope with the challenges. It, it certainly stress has become, is being taken more seriously, by some companies. Put it like that. Other companies prefer, you know, they've got to be able to cope, but you, you, you know, you read various things that are said, and some companies are taking it much, much more seriously, and they're realising the problems right the way down, right through the whole company that stress is causing, and trying to save money. It's the object at the end of the day, isn't it? I mean they are concerned about their employees, they are. But at the end of the day, they're more concerned about the money. [speaker001:] The problem is, the problem is though, half the time you put into a situation, where, I, I, I was due er, a week's holiday, and two weeks previous to that, I was actually changed contract so I was there on this new contract, and in a fortnight I was going to take a holiday, and sort of, well I can't stop you from taking your holiday, but you know, it's, that sort of problem isn't it. Because, I mean, I, I've, I've got three weeks holiday owing to me from last year. [speaker002:] Yes, I know, md, yes, Oh, I can believe it yes, yes. [speaker001:] It's an attitude as well, from your immediate superior as well. If they're used to working long hours, they expect that off you. [speaker002:] You hear these people say I don't ask anything of my staff that I'm not prepared to do myself, then you find something like a ninety hour week or something. You know, it, it is a definite problem. Yes, I can see that, yes. Yes, you, you've got to keep agitating for this holiday. You've got to survive at the end of the day. Do you know, if you're ill then what's going to happen? They've got to cope then haven't they? [speaker001:] That's different though isn't it? [LAUGHTER] A perfect manager! [speaker002:] I like it. [speaker001:] Personnel? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I like it, Yes, Right well [] [speaker001:] Is it any different if you [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right,th, thinking about things then that do stress you. Now there are lots of things that can cause you to be stressed, and I mean, I'm talking about a lot here. And we're going to go through them, you don't necessarily need to write them all down because there is such a lot, but, because they're all sort of shown individually here. Now, in your environment then, there are lots of things that cou [clears throat] could cause you to be stressed, depending on the type of person that you are. So let's look and see what they are.... Things that I mentioned yesterday, you need to be able to er, manage effectively all these things like temperature, the noise level around you. The, the older you get, the more sort of find, that you like to work in a quiet environment. If you've got teenagers, they can't do their homework unless they've got the ra, the television on and the er, the Walkman at the same time. And you say, how can you concentrate? What, what you know. They're still trying to do their homework. I can't work without that actually going on around me sort of thing. Er, lighting, again, you get much more concerned, as you go on, we get much more concerned about these things don't we? The, the, the young cope. Er, office decor we find actually makes a big difference to people. Some tests done in wasn't there, in one of those prisons, and I think they tried with very violent, very aggressive er, prisoners there, and it, they eventually found that the colours that calmed them down most of all was pink. So if you're [LAUGHTER] if you find you have some very violent [] and aggressive people working for you, put them in a pink room to have their sandwiches, so. [speaker001:] Give them pink butties. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] There you are yes, [] Even the open door policy can be very stressful for some people. Some people like it and thrive on it, others find it very, very difficult to live with. But, so those are what we call environmental stresses. These are the things that can cause you to be stressed in your environment. But you might say no, it's fine I can live with all those. You know, I'm easy going and I can cope with that, and get on and do the job with whatever it is that's got to be done. [speaker001:] Is there one colour that might do, er what best person [speaker002:] Blue, blue is seen as being very cold. Y, you, you h, you want, you've got to go for neutral colours, that's going to sort of stress the less number of people haven't you? You wouldn't sort of erm, if you think of Fay er, [speaker001:] What are the what is it that [speaker002:] I don't know, I don't know, er, I, I, I'm not really up into this, but for example, the reason that McDonald's uses red, is because it's part of their culture of being classed in an so if you used green. Pizzaland use green, because they want it as a more relaxed atmosphere, I mean there's a lot in colour psychology, and I, I'm not into it. But er, if you, if you really wanted to find out there is quite a lot in colour psychology. Oh yes, even, yes, even things like that yes. But of course we've got to be a bit careful, because the Americans are going, sort of the other way now, that people can't wear perfume and deodorant, that, that smell and things like that, can they, because it's now seen as being equally as difficult as people who smoke. So you, you've got to be careful which road you go along, oh, yes, haven't you heard this in America?

[speaker001:] Okay. So... we're, we're, we're... we're all communists, right, we've gotta agree on that. So if anybody's, if anybody's capitalist and [speaker002:] we... we've gotta construct a land reform document. Now... what is it we're trying to do with the land reform document? What's, what's the purpose of it?... [speaker001:] Improve the wealth of the peasants.... [speaker002:] Improve of the wealth comrades, comrades. Right what do we want to improve... their wealth for?

[speaker001:] C C P policy between nineteen forty six and forty eight, the rise and fall of absolute egalitarianism. During the course of the third revolution and civil war between nineteen forty six and forty nine, land policy of the Chinese Communist Party underwent a process of radicalization followed by moderation and was accompanied by measures that attempted to purify the Party itself. In April nineteen forty eight Mao wrote, whoever argues absolute egalitarianism is wrong. It appeared to many that the of the C C P was moving away from one of the most fundamental principles of socialism. Indeed by this time Mao is specifically advocating that the Party ought to take a more cautious and less radical approach to land reform so as to not antagonize the interests of the middle and rich peasants. But surely the aim of all communists is to overthrow capitalism and eliminate all class distinctions rather than working round them? In this paper I will examine the reasons behind the, the C C P policy through this crucial period of land reform in China.... Due to the anti-Japanese war of nineteen thirty seven to forty five, the United Front was formed which was committed to the maintenance of a broad alliance of classes. There was a severe moderation of land reform policies to only rent and interest reduction with restrictions in and taxation too. There was a hint that this was a short term strategy, Mao at the seventh national congress in April nineteen forty five argued... the C C P has made a major concession to land to the tiller. The communist want to return to this old policy but had to consolidate his position first with rent and interest reductions. In fact a moderate policy continued after the war but there was increasing cases of the landlords manipulating peasants in order to evade rent reductions. The newly liberated areas from the Japane er in the newly liberated areas from the Japanese the sit situation was more explosive.... The peasants were taking things into their own hands through the anti movements in their settling of accounts. In effect land redistribution was happening in advance of C C P official policy. An attempt to regain control over the peasants' movement [cough] was passed... nineteen forty six. [blowing nose] Although the document land to the tiller it was essentially moderate in its tone and protected the interests of mi rich and middle peasants as well as industry and commerce. Moderate land reform was a cau cautious approach in... in that how that the communists had to maintain a fragile balanc balance between the two fundamental aims of the maintenance of support and the increase of production. The moderate proposals of May the fourth would not have held however due to the outbreak of the civil war. Given the limitations of confiscation in the May the fourth directive, it was to be revealed that the provisions were largely ignored and land was taken. Most of the C C P areas underwent reform in a few months. About sixty million people received land through redistribution. Early in nineteen forty seven Mao wrote... the land problem has been solved and the policy of land to the tiller has been carried out. This is a great victory. This comment reveals where many of the misconceptions that led to the official radicalization of land policy towards... which ended up in the land October nineteen forty seven. Provisions of May the fourth had been seriously overstepped but the communists did not realize this and thought that more land was available for redistribution. This was based upon their assumption that how that eighty percent of the land was owned by ten percent of the population which in actual fact wasn't the case. So the C C P decided to press ahead with mor with the more radical campaign to get the mess masses' support and essentially their power. In my opinion the rise of absolute egalitarianism was a tactical move, the C C P hoped that land reform would be the key to the rapid mobilization of peasants which would enable them to defeat the superior forces of the K M T. They thought that the advantages of heightening peasant mobilization outweighed the drawbacks of narrowing its support base. The involvement of land reform would bind the peasants to the communists, and these hopes seemed to be confirmed in a rise of the P L A and militia recruitments when land reform had been re redistributed... the land had been redistributed. The C C P hoped that the peasants would increase production of food and... when working on their own land... because of erm because of desire to increase production, that the C C P left commerce and industry untouched. They wanted to get rid of the feudal not capitalist elements of landlords which had to be destroyed. In many of the rural areas, however, reform tended to be uneven. Progressive landlords still owned a lot of land and redistribution often didn't go to the poorest peasants but to peasants who were members of the Communist Party. It would seem that their, the Party had been infiltrated. Indeed argued in his nineteen forty seven document that the May the fourth directive ha dire directive hadn't been thorough enough. He saw three main problems, one, the lack of thoroughness in the guidance of the movement, two, defects in the Party organization and three, bureaucratic leadership, I E the cadres were very commandist rather than giving the peasants political education. It was feared that landlords and rich peasants had en entered the Party erm... but wh which had increased from tens of thousands to two point seven million in eleven years. According to Mao this had allowed the wrong people to enter... therefore in order to advance with reform purification of the Party was necessary. This th... w Wong actually calls this the ratification of the Party which can be cross-referred to the nineteen thirty seven policies were happening. This self-criticism also con er this self-criticism of the Party and purification also contributed to erm the rise in absolute egalitarianism... which thought would thorough and satisfy the peasants... but problems arose from er absolute egalitarianism in that how that the interests of middle peasants were encroached upon and rich peasants were severely under attack. The result was a support base in the C C P which was dangerously narrowed and production decreased. Over enthusiastic purification led to the... dampening Party m morale and cohesion and therefore the ability of the communists to fight the civil war was threatened. This period can be seen as almost a power struggle between the K M T and the C C P competing for peasant support, and the policy changes during this period reflect a change from mass mobilization and smashing local maximizing agricultural production.... The reasons... towards this sh erm the reason why that you had the rise in er absolute egalitarianism was that the Communist Party thought that they'd be able to keep the speed up for the process of land reform. However they seemed [cough] to realize that it was alienating other sectors of society when the C C P could least afford to. They had to reconcile the interests of poor peasants with the larger national goals of providing for the war... and this meant that how the C C P had to take a more moderate erm... policy. Erm they were hoping to use agrarian reform to mobilize mass support as well as economic and social change. It never associated ma agrarian reform as an end it itself. Ideal ideog ideologically it was committed to a nation where private property was abolished. If its policy seemed more or less radical at different times it wasn't necessarily changing its view of land reform, but it was keeping its final goal of socialism in sight so it had to make short term expediencies. The CC C P Par army was a quarter the size of the K M T and had little money and no tanks, therefore it needed mobilization of the peasants in the villages, they needed the peasants to volunteer to join the P L A and to protect their own property so they thought that this would be an incentive for them.... By the radicalizing policy the C C P hoped to appeal to those peasants who still hadn't received much or any land.... Erm... however... absolute egalitarianism showed that it couldn't actually work in practice because there wasn't... they underestimated the amount of land which, that could be redistributed and you had leftist and rightist deviations where... which meant that how that industry and commerce was being threatened and landlords were just being indiscriminately killed. Erm... this meant that how that... er erm some of the problems actually arose from the outline landlord itself er by land law itself in that it discussed land reform in very general terms and the policy towards middle and rich peasants was left unclear erm which meant that how that classes were being mis-classified and the movement was getting out of hand. Erm... it may have been deliberate in that how the Par Party couldn't be seen as too radical in order to maintain... er as broad a support as possible and allow the peasants to erm... give them leeway to do what they wanted to do, but... erm... it's quite interesting though that whatever the Communist Party did, people were going to respond in which ever way they wanted to whether or not there was a law there, but they still had to sort of erm establish their legitimacy. Erm als other problems which arose from the outline land law was in its deliberate ambiguity er in its deliberate erm... tt... sort of ambiguity because it left reg it left the law to be interpreted by regional areas which meant that how that erm in some places they totally misinterpreted the law but the Communist Party had to have this flexibility because China was such a vast country and you couldn't just impose one policy per se across the country. Erm... the problems of the implementation of the nineteen forty seven outline land law arose from two misapprehensions by the Party leaders. One, firstly, if equal distribution was to be achieved peasant mobilization and increase produc erm if equally... distribution was to achieve its goals of peasant mobilization and increased production, there had to be enough land available to bring most peasants up to an independent pe peasant status without encroaching upon the existing er middle peasants. [sniff] Erm... and two, aware of this impossibility the C C P leaders saw that the impurity of the local Party as a problem... while that though this played some part erm the C C P play was actually exaggerated according to. He said that how that the real problem was the expansion of the C C P between nineteen thirty seven to forty seven and the inadequate training.... The, in effect the Communist Party had to choose between either equal distribution or the preservation of the middle peasants. However in nineteen thirty s nineteen forty seven this wasn't actually realizing, it was only later on that they saw the incompatibility of the two... aims. And so throughout this period it was them er trying... importance upon these two goals. Erm as the scale of the problem became clear however the Party was forced to react and in a series of directives between February and May nineteen forty eight the leadership established more moderate ground rules for land reform.... The new aims we was the abolition of feudalism and increased production. Mao specifically said in April nineteen forty five that whoever argues absolute egalitarianism is wrong.... Erm the Communist Party needed the approval of the majority of peasants... erm before land reform could take place and there was... there's this sort of chicken and egg problem in that how that... do you have land reform in order to mobilize peasant support or is it the peasant support that's going to enable land reform t to take place successfully. Erm [cough] by nineteen forty eight [sniff] erm the Communist Party had argued that three conditions had to be there for land reform to take place and that was that how that the area had to be militarily stable, the majority of peasants erm rich peasants had to be mobilized er had to... want to be... demanding land reform and the Party cadres there had to be adequate in numbers and quality. Where these three conditions weren't met then policy erm reducing interest and rents was to be taking place. Erm by nineteen forty eight the military situation had changed in favour of the Communist Party and their policies reflected this. Erm... by nineteen forty eight... no in... in nineteen forty seven with the rise of absolute egalitarianism, the policy of narrowing its base had helped them to erm... get the peasant support and to get into power but that was no longer necessary erm... and... the radicalization of land reform it appears had been based upon false premises which had created problems in the countryside and the Party. However through this radicalization of land reform the Party had learnt valuable lessons and that was the impossibility of egalitarianism with the demands of middle peasants which couldn't... they conflicted one another. However this radicalization in land policy had allowed them to defeat the K M T and essentially led them to get into power so one has... elements of pragmatism in their ideology and... that how that you've got to realize that the Communist Party was in a very precarious situation throughout these years, that how that although they did have a kind of er policy in th there ultimate aim of socialism, and although it seare appeared s quite strange that they were almost promoting capitalism, that how that their aim during this period was to eliminate feudalism which was the s... and then to establish capitalism in order that socialism could take place.... [Philip:] Fine, thanks very much. Erm that's good but there's an awful lot there, it needs breaking down a bit. Erm... your [speaker001:] [cough] [Philip:] in a sense what you're, what you're arguing is that y y you start off... here [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Philip:] with a s as we were picking up from last week, a c a c... in, in a sense that land reform is, is already taking place, there is this sort of groundswell from the masses that... to move beyond the, the moderate policy and that is then formalized in the May the fourth directive... which marks like the return to land reform going back to... and... then y y y y you've got the implementation of that May the fourth directive and then out of a very difficult position in nineteen forty seven when they, they are under attack from the Kuomintang and i in the spring of nineteen forty seven is actually taken by Kuomintang.... They, they needed a, a sort of... a, a set of more radical policies to, to get full mobilization and... it's out of that that the outline agrarian law comes, and then they realize the mistakes of that and there's a, there's a pull back to the right so it's, it's that kind of move to the left and then back to the right. Okay. Erm... Now can, can we go back to... to the May the fourth directive.... Erm [sigh] h how erm dunno, how many of you looked at the May the fourth directive?... How did it strike you as a document? I mean what... what what was your [speaker001:] [cough] [Philip:] your feeling from it? [speaker001:] That there was a that they were gonna be trailing behind the peasant movement and that how that they had to sort of get a hold over all the... all the changes that were happening in the country. There was a real desire to get power and that how that they thought that mass mobilization was the only way they could do it. [Philip:] Er right. So i is... i... it is quite a leftist movement in, in, in that it is, it is calling for radicalization, calling for recognizing the need for mass mobilization? [speaker001:] It's calling for getting better control over what's happening in the country. Erm it's not, it's not [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] necessarily calling for radicalization cos it was forced erm... I, I, it appeared to me that how that the Communist Party would have continued a moderate policy had the peasants not erm been demanding further radical change and in actual fact the tone of the document's quite moderate and it's protecting middle peasants, rich peasants, even some landlords who had remained loyal to the Party so it's not at all radical but erm it's just... it's radical in the sense that how that it wants to get rid of... feudalism, but it's not getting rid of landlords per se as a class.... [Philip:] Right. S so, so it... i it's a radical document but... it's moderate at the same time? [speaker001:] They're mm [clears throat] It's, it's erm I think it's quite interesting cos it's a different style, in a sense it's just setting out some goals that they want to achieve but not really giving any clear instruction of how you can achieve those goals. So it's unlike a law. Well it's, it... I mean it's, it's a different kind of style which is [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] quite interesting and it's quite vague in a way [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] it's just a speech given and... this is [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] supposed to be adopted [Philip:] Mhm. [speaker001:] as, I don't know in what sense it was supposed to be taken but it's just sort of outlining some objectives. [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] But it's n I still can't reconcile why it was kept secret cos surely this is a fundamental point cos it is because they can't openly declare that how that they are moving away from the United Front, but if they're trying to show that they're moving in line with the peasants' demands surely they want to show that to the peasants an... so there, there's... it's more that how th the Party cadres have been acting out of step rather than them making it clear to the peasants. [Philip:] Mm.... But er er er [speaker001:] Cos if they were trying to get peasant support and erm showing the importance of peasants instead of the United Front they would've made it public.... [Philip:] Wh why? [speaker001:] Well so that the peasants realized that how that it's a communist [clears throat] I know but how many peasants are gonna be able to read it? [Philip:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] They probably read it. But you're going to have erm peasant associations and their leaders are gonna be able to understand erm... [Philip:] But who was the directive given to? [speaker001:] It's given to the Party itself. [Philip:] Party cadres? [speaker001:] Yes. [Philip:] Right. So then Party cadres are going to implement it? [speaker001:] Yeah.... [Philip:] Right. Bu but surely this is something a at this stage you can't make public because you are still committed to the United Front [speaker001:] There's still a... a sort of truce... six month truce [Philip:] i in the sense that... so if you come out public with this you are, you are breaking the United Front and you would be seen to break the United Front. So somehow you, you, you, you've got to get these ideas through th that you... you've recognized that it, it's, it's necessary to move on beyond the pol the moderate policies of the United Front but you can't be seen to be doing that.... So isn't the only way you could do it would be to issue it secretly to cadres... you would then expect the cadres to take this up and promote it but you haven't actually broken the conditions in the United Front. [speaker001:] If anything it's probably more just a suggestion. Erm cos I think a lot of the, I mean a lot of land redistribution had already been taking place in... since about the... since about January of nineteen forty six, so I think the May the fourth directive is just erm... an official, well a secret official acceptance of this. Because [Philip:] You said suggestion? [speaker001:] Well a suggestion in that [sneeze] because it, well because it was secret and also because it was quite vague, it didn't actually set out that land redistribution was supposed to take place.... [Philip:] How was a er er er y y y y you're a cadre and you receive this... how do you take it?... [speaker001:] Erm... I suppose, I mean it would depend on where you were going back to, to where you... which, which region then because I mean there was such a difference in... in what the villages were going to erm... accept. [Philip:] Yeah. Bu bu bu but would you take it just as a suggestion or would you take it as a [speaker001:] No they'd probably take it as an a as a er er n okay to just go and... just [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] go for it. [Philip:] Yeah. I mean quite, if, if 's saying this... you do it. I mean there's no oh I might, just a suggestion I [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... To do what? Basically they're just telling the Party to consider the demands of the peasants and do what the peasants want but then... er then in the first paragraph they say that you ought to erm... they ought to support the masses... in their erm implementation of agrarian reform, you have to give them planned guidance so it's... almost that how they're telling the cadres to go out there and... almost manipulate [LAUGHTER] the peasants demands [] into more of a communist one. [Philip:] Yes but surely if you're saying [reading] in combating Chinese collaborators, settling accounts with landlords and reducing rents and interest, the people have seized the land directly from the landlords thus realizing the principle of the land to the tiller... where the mass movement has been thorough the land problem is being or has basically been solved. In some places the movement has progressed to the point where the principle of equal redistribution, equal distribution of land has been put into effect with everybody, even the landlords, getting of land []. Now if I was a cadre and I received that I think I would be thinking... right erm... if I really want to be at the forefront of this... that's the policy that I want to promote erm and if the peasants in my area are not demanding this and not achieving this well... we, I, I can't be seen not to be going it, I've gotta go with this.... I mean would, would, wouldn't you think it is a, a directive that if it's not happening in your area you make it happen? [speaker001:] Oh but I dunno erm cos there's always this thing about following the mass ideal what peasants want. [clears throat] I mean er it's, it's a... i i it's sort of er you can read into it various sort of suggestions for radicalism but at the same time it's got a lot of erm... you know sort of and stuff about the rich peasants, erm land of the rich peasants should not be confiscated [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah it doesn't really say how you, how you could achieve the goal I mean it just says you know don't hurt the middle peasants... give the poor peasants land... it doesn't say, you know, [Philip:] But it, yeah, I mean I quite take all of these qualifications... but... if sh if you take the first couple of paragraphs doesn't it seem to be a call to, to radical land reform?... [speaker001:] Yes but did the Party want, did the Party mean it at this stage?... [Philip:] Well I don't know,ha ha haven't you got a position where er as, as we began to, to see last week, there is this radicalization coming in but the, the... er i i it's the peasants who've moved to the left of the Party, you're right, that they are inappropriate to this very moderate policy of rent reduction... erm a tax on collaborators... land is being redistributed... and isn't saying right we,i i in the same way that, that Mao was identifying the problem in... in, either you, you follow the masses or you, you lead them but, but thereof we are behind them... and a sense the Party has gotta recognize that, it's gotta catch up with the masses... and isn't that first paragraph saying look this is the way you should be going, that there are peasants who are redistributing the land and land reform is in effect taking place and that's what we want to see?... I mean surely i i it does clearly mark the return to land reform?... And there is this directive to cadres saying we are returning to land reform. Now I think if, if, if I'd've received this I'd've thought right we're off. Erm and then okay you, a bit later on you'd say well yes w we, we need to be a bit careful about this erm we mustn't be too hard on, on the middle peasant etcetera.... Bu but basically we are, we are now going for land reform and if the, if... th th the momentum from this is coming from the spontaneous actions of the peasants themselves, and if it's not coming then we've gotta give them the guidance to move in that direction.... But in that case is it a bit like the report where you, you, you've got this quite... radical introduction and then when you come on to the, the bits at the end it's, it is really quite moderate?... [speaker001:] Erm in both of them... it's, they're saying that how they're falling behind and they ought to lead them as opposed to joining them. [Philip:] Right.... [speaker001:] In both the documents [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] the report and this one. [Philip:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah I think it's, it's quite constant throughout the sort of, what, eighteen different points about how things should take place.... And they, they themselves aren't, well, they have similar characteristics I think, a lot of the points. [Philip:] Yes.... But, but i i... if, if you just started erm... if you just started on, on sort of the second page of the directive with, with the twelve points... if you just go through those, they are all fairly moderate. I mean even, even the first one [reading] firmly support the demands of the masses realize the principle of land to the tiller by taking land from the landlords as they combat collaborators, settle accounts with landlords, reduce rent and interest and get landlords to rech to, to return the average half portion of rent and interest []. Now apart from by taking land from the landlords which is pretty in unspecific, all of the others are, are s are straight, very moderate, very limited... acquisitions and then if you go on where you've gotta protect the middle peasant etcetera, then they are really very low key... methods, you, you, you would not see that I think as being the return to land reform.... But you're given this very general instruction to begin with that yes we are returning to land reform and that the peasants are, are seizing land and this is what you should be supporting, and then when you come on to they, as you're saying that they really are quite moderate. And there, maybe there is something of a conflict between those two bits. [speaker001:] But there's the potential for it to be interpreted quite radically and [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] because they don't give a specific definition as to what a landlord is or a rich peasant or a middle peasant meant that how that there was a lot of flexibility within that and it's only later that they have to reissue those two documents on how to analyze the classes which erm... which had been published in nineteen thirty which they felt that you know the Party's moving too far away, but why didn't they do it at the time?... [Philip:] Erm... Well I don't think you'd want to, presumably you, you, you wouldn't want to constrain it. [speaker001:] Yeah. So it was all deliberate?... That's what is says isn't it? It says in order to keep ninety percent of the population on our side. It actually just says that in the directive. [Philip:] Yes. Yeah.... [speaker001:] [clears throat] isn't very specific, it gives eighteen different things you should do through all of them, you could just get [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] I mean that's the [Philip:] Yeah. I mean wou would, as a cadre receiving this would you have been happy to take this up and implement it?... [speaker001:] Yeah I think so cos it's, well I mean I think it would probably be impossible to implement, to satisfy a lot of the requirements in it, but yeah it's quite, it's [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] They but the Party cadres, particularly in the newly acquired areas from the Japanese, they, they wanted to seek revenge and they [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] they wanted to er you know given these guidelines I'd think right let's, as you were saying, just go for it and [Philip:] Right. So certainly if, if, if you were [speaker001:] I think that would give them the sanction to [Philip:] if you were a fairly radical cadre, if you erm really did believe in land reform etcetera this would, this would give you the go ahead to promote land reform.... Right.... Er... yeah... and if you were a, if you were a rightist cadre that had doubts about all this and actually wanted to go the slow... more moderate line, you could also find enough in here... to be able to, to sort of curtail things a bit?... [speaker001:] I mean they've already made the mistake once of trying to lay down the law too heavily... erm th this might seem, this... seems to, to accommodate most I mean how erm if you've got a cadre in a village I mean how supportive is he and how... how is he going to implement er radical change? I mean what, what does, what means does he have at his disposal?... [Philip:] Erm... only through working with the peasants surely. [speaker001:] Right. [Philip:] Erm... in terms of taking up their ideas, guiding them, encouraging them etcetera... an and saying look, you know, this is okay er er er I mean to an extent that would depend on how much military security there was in the area. Erm... in terms of if you, if you've got a very strong presence you might adopt a different line than if you haven't. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] So you've got er those kind of problems but er there ought to be some troop support for you. Erm... but basically you, you would be going in to a village to, to try and encourage land reform with this document or knowing that this document existed. [speaker001:] So it's consistent with this grass roots initiative that [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] happening now. Okay. [Philip:] Yeah. Yes I mean it's, it is very much growing out of that.... Okay was there anything else from the, the directive itself you, you wanted to raise?... [speaker001:] [clears throat] come to the situation here where it says, you know, it could be [Philip:] Yeah.... And it's, it's, it's vague enough to be able to do that. I mean if it,wh wh what it is trying to do is, is to... is to formalize... the fact that land reform was already taking place, and therefore you, you've got to give the go ahead to that [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] but... you, you can't make that public and you are still worried that it can go too far to the left and therefore you, you, you've got a range of, of erm quite moderate proposals which come in which,i if they were implemented, would restrain and would maintain the su the support of the ninety percent,th that you are still only seeking to antagonize really those, those landlords who are not going to be prepared to come back within the system.... An and in, in that sense it's quite moderate, and in the sense of, of protecting middle peasants it's quite moderate erm... but in, in terms of encouraging the move back to, to more radical land reforms it is an important step forward. [speaker001:] Mhm. I was just thinking... could you consider it a panic measure?... Rather than something which is and calculated, you know,... [Philip:] I don't think that I, I wouldn't see it as a panic measure.... [speaker001:] It's just that they they were worried that they were losing, they were worried that they were losing support, of losing... cos the peasants are off on their own, you know, what's the logical path. You're a party... [Philip:] I it, it's your means of getting back in control then? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] That... it is happening, you've either got to just let it happen [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] or you've gotta try and stop it, or you've gotta get in there and... and sort of organize it, take it on your shoulders, and I think this, this is a recognition that... erm... changes were taking place which were taking peasants beyond the straight moderate programme. Because th th th th there, there'd been statements from Mao until the end of nineteen forty five where he's still talking about land to the tiller being some way off [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] i in, in, in that our present policy, which will continue, is simply the rent reduction, interest rate reduction. Erm now given, what less than five months er before this May the fourth directive, Mao is still saying that, this marks quite an important shift in policy. And i i i it's, it's... a clear statement, at least to the cadres, that that moderate policy has now been abandoned and we are now off into land reform because this is what is happening anyway. Because these very moderate policies have allowed the peasants to come through... with actions which in effect mean land reform and we need to get back in control of that. [speaker001:] Yeah. That's what hanging on to there cos like it's just like erm... the Party's worried that it's getting a bit left behind and needs to [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] catch itself up. [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Not because, you know, it's, it's a revolutionary strategy but [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] it's just the pure political aspect that because people are moving on and you need to be seen to be... you need to... use that for your own advantage. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] Which is itself. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] But I think he's a bit worried... I read into this that there's a current there where... you know the peasants are getting very radical, our is we can't be too radical and therefore we need to issue something which is gonna. [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But it's also fears that the Party itself is becoming too radical too, they always want to control two elements and I mean on the last page, point number sixteen it says that how that erm... tt... that how that the Communist Party members ought to refrain from securing undue benefits by taking advantage of their leading position. [Philip:] Ah right. [speaker001:] And so that shows that how that they... I mean it implies that that's happening and that that ought to be controlled. So they're los they're, they're falling behind the peasant movement but they're also losing control over their own party members and that was as important as erm following the peasants. I mean they need to have consolid I mean they need to consolidate their own party before they can even go out there and... try to direct the masses. Cos [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] the struggle's gonna be misdirected. [Philip:] How, how are the Party members taking advantage of this? [speaker001:] Erm by the land that's being redistributed, they are actually keeping it for themselves, and that how that they're [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] perhaps instilling more revolutionary erm ideas in the peasants. [Philip:] How how were they taking more themselves? [speaker001:] Well just... when the land's redistributed they would give their own families disproportionately more land. Or perhaps through erm corruption in that the landlords are paying backhanders to them so that the landlords were left in effect with more land than they ought to have been.... [Philip:] Mm. Right. [speaker001:] Wasn't it erm also that the people who got in there first... often took the most Mm. took the wealth, and they were often people that were elected to cadres because they showed initiative. [Philip:] Right ho hold on, so, so this is taking place within the village? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] That i it would be the people who stood up first and accused the landlords and took the lead in the settling accounts procedure, they were more likely to be able to, to get more in the way of than anybody else, that they would get more land, more... erm better quality land... the animals, implements etcetera... and those sort of,th those peasants who were taking the lead were actually members of the Party were they? [speaker001:] Mm.... [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] Well that's that's what If er in the anti-traitor movements it was [clears throat] also that it was the Party cadres that were taking the lead, but in the settling of accounts the peasants [blowing nose] themselves... in advance of erm what the Communist Party was [blowing nose] [Philip:] I i i in what sense were these people Party cadres then?... I mean i i i... the these are individual peasants from a village who are standing up and taking the lead in criticizing landlords etcetera... but, but they, they are not the Party cadres coming in from outside.... Because i if you're from outside the village you would have no entitlement to land in the village at all would you?... So, so i i it's peasants who have been radicalized by Party cadres who themselves are then becoming members of the Communist Party and are taking advantage of that position by getting more than they're entitled to.... Right.... Okay. I mean wh do, do you think this was a widespread process?... [speaker001:] Well yeah Obviously yes because of the amount of land that was redistributed.... [Philip:] I i it's saying something about the motivation of the people who... who are doing this, those peasants who were taking the lead and becoming members of the Party. Because i in, in theory presumably they s they shouldn't have been abusing their position, they shouldn't be gaining more because the whole point was to do it for the masses... particularly, I mean if you were a Party cadre... erm you shouldn't be getting more out of it than anybody else.... [speaker001:] According to 's account there was quite a lot of... abuse by the Party members who had actually managed to blackmail and embroil different peasants or [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] landlords and they used to do whatever they wished to do. Erm [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] either, you know, gain land or... do things with people. [LAUGHTER] [clears throat] [LAUGHTER] I didn't think there was that much bribing but there were sort of women seducing young peasants [LAUGHTER] who'd come into a bit of money [] [LAUGHTER] but I, there weren't any accounts of like actually communists bribing [cough] Yeah there was a [cough] I thought there was a, there was a full chapter on how the cadres and the Party members sort of went beyond their... allowed position and took [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] advantage of their position.... [Philip:] So is at least providing the opportunity for that? [speaker001:] Oh yes, Well it was also how they distributed it as well cos it needn't necessarily just be the cadres, it was... dunno there's a scene where they the house, like you get in a queue [LAUGHTER] take what you want [] [LAUGHTER] Like a car boot sale. [Philip:] But er wh why from the point of view of the peasants was this radicalization taking place?... Because in a sense the, the whole... our analysis of the was that this er very moderate policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction, of building up reductions, that in itself was producing the required results wasn't it? [speaker001:] Well why was it producing the required results because it, in fact it was beyond... what it erm [clears throat] you know it specifically was set out to do. Cos in actual fact there was a, a lot of sort of de facto redistribution because er some of these account settling things were just so ridiculous... you know make them pay for crimes their family had committed over the last sixty years or whatever. So in actual fact they, they [LAUGHTER] they, they, they didn't pay it back they give up their land [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] and so it was just another way of [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] during rent reduction? Yes. Was it, during accounts it was. Was it? During Mm [Philip:] Bu bu bu but why why is that happening? Because wh when, when we were looking at, at, at the I mean sort of things... the implication to me seemed to be that, that this in itself is a successful policy, rent reduction, interest rate reduction... methods improving er productivity, increasing input, in themselves are satisfying the demands of the peasantry and you would not need to go beyond that, I mean... well didn't need to, he isn't the ideal, but he didn't need to go and he, he was doing very well out of it.... S so, so where is this radicalization coming from? I mean is it that the rent reduction interest rate reduction is not working and in order for the peasant to get enough for themselves, they needed to go further?... Or are they just greedy and saying well we're doing quite well out of rent reduction, but if we, you know if we the landlords, we're gonna get some more?... [speaker001:] I think the fact that the Japanese had surrendered must have something to do with it cos then they probably had a chance to attack the people who'd er collaborated with the Japanese. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] they wouldn't just accept rent reductions from [Philip:] Right so... after nineteen forty five there cer there certainly would have been a momentum towards this in the areas where there'd been a strong Japanese presence because there would be more collaborators and there would be some more obvious targets. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] But in... the old liberated areas like... say around... i i i in theory none of this should be necessary, very little of it should've been happening. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] But it might also be happening where the Communist Party have provided some sort of secure... physical presence and where if, as a result of past exploitation, there was a substantial degree of antagonism towards landlords which, it would be that that was carried out. But it, it needn't necessarily be... erm... the kind of direct material gain in terms of well we need to go beyond rent reduction because rent reduction is not, hasn't given us enough, because in theory rent reduction ought to be giving you as much you need.... [speaker001:] Maybe the erm peasant er their desires are just growing and, you know, [cough] reduction I, I want a bit more. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] A subtle change in psychology.... [Philip:] Yes.... [speaker001:] They also had I just think it was a momentum that was caused by... some villages feeling safer from the nationalists as they got further and further from the front and therefore more and more people... a bit f erm being willing to sort of talk again, shout up against the, the landlords and as they saw, as they saw that their neighbours were getting land, all the others decided well they're getting land, we might as well talk to, have a talk about them... the problems and the harsh treatment that we've had in, in years before. [Philip:] So what's happened to our moral economy? [speaker001:] cos you're an opportunist. Yeah. Mm. [Philip:] Just, just like that, almost? [speaker001:] Yeah, I think Well you've got a lot of nationalism as well cos er a lot of them article forty seven when they, they said that the problem of the nation was the result of the landlords, and so there's all this sort of nationalist and there's also [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] party erm line saying that, identifying anyone with any power in the community as er well you can identify them so therefore you've already got that directive and then you've got [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] you imply that it's... er I mean quite easily [Philip:] Right, yes. Yes. But if, if we, if w we accepted the moral economy, which was that the peasant has a, a view of what is right and fair and once that fairness is established for him, that's it, he doesn't want to go any further than this. What we're, in effect what we're saying is that for a... a number of years... the Communist Party has provided, has made that moral economy work... i in a s and made it work very well because rents have been reduced more than the peasants would expect... erm er interest rate is extremely low. The conditions of the moral economy have been met, okay the landlords have been forced to... if one accepted that was the way in which the peasants saw the world... they would not have gone beyond that. I i in a way, way th that they're going beyond it not because the Party's encouraging them to do it, but because they're doing it themselves. Now does that call into question the, the moral economy at all? Does, does it call into question the fact that that was really what the peasants did think and believe, or were the peasants... opportunists, and if they felt they could get away with anything they would get away with anything? [speaker001:] Isn't it more the case that it's not so much... what they're trying to get away with, it's just that how what was happening the peasants did see the world that they were in... but with the Communist Party and the revolution that the idea is to change the way the peasants see the world and how they view themselves [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] which is what [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] So they're changing the way [clears throat] structures, their possibilities... I mean at one stage they would have been at a certain level hadn't got a landlord their income... but that's within one particular moral economy, now the idea here is to break that down, you know, just get rid of the circle altogether. But also the moral economy low rates so presumably means less of the sort of loyal [cough] so presumably, you know, with all this in the earlier period that erm people are gonna be, you know, have less ties towards with people, traditional ties, it's much more, so they would just see people who were higher up in society with more... other people with, with, you know rather than [Philip:] Right. Yeah [speaker001:] Within, oh sorry. Within the moral economy there was potential for them to be revolutionary though because erm you had this sub-culture which was [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] very much part of, which ran alongside this moral economy [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] and so when the system clearly wasn't working, the peasants would form their own collectives and [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] erm supporting agencies and stuff so it's not necessarily running against the... the idea of a moral economy, just that moral economy developing its revolutionary potential [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] and that's what Mao saw in nineteen twenty seven. [Philip:] Right. Yes. So obviously there are a number of [speaker001:] [cough] [Philip:] one is that... i it may be that the old moral economy worked because the peasants recognized that, in a sense, that was the way they w well they, they could not stand up and criticize the landlord... th the, the most they could do was to try and get the landlord to behave in a reasonable way, and that within that there would then be the sub-culture, the counter-culture of, of beginnings of mutual aid and what is happening in is in part that the communists are making them think the old moral economy work, but in part they are picking up on those sub- culture bits because the, the, the whole of mutual aid... idea is, is coming from existing peasant cooperations. But what they're doing which is more important than that, they are beginning to change the way in which the peasant sees the world. Er that they are changing a whole range o of non-economic variables which allow the peasant the world to see the world doesn't have to be like this... we can actually question the landlord... and not only can we get away with it but we can get something out of it. And once that has begun to change, the peasant is off because he, he, he, he's begun to see a new world that he can realize. [speaker001:] How widespread now is erm... the education movement now in you have much more schools, now is this spreading?... [Philip:] Erm... tt... yes but not... er er w w once, once the war [speaker001:] education [Philip:] finishes, we are talking about the, the whole of north China right the way through Manchuria [speaker001:] Right. [Philip:] erm I E you've got an enormous area where sometimes you're moving in very quickly, and particularly in Manchuria y you're trying to get there extremely quickly, and you, you haven't got the time to build up that kind of infrastructure, but that is gonna come later. So I, I don't think it's there... er and it can't be created quickly enough. [speaker001:] Mm yeah. Also what struck me was now that they... they're not fighting the Japanese... erm they're not required to make the sacrifices of war that they were so perhaps they're going to think right let's see what we can make out of this, I don't, I no longer have to pay X tax because [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] there are no more soldiers to maintain [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] what can I do, well I mean the there are, but I mean well they're not, it's not as expensive is it, once your [Philip:] The, the Party's not gonna reduce its tax but it's, it's fighting the at least as expensive as fighting [speaker001:] But surely the... the, some of the burdens on the peasants surely gotta be less now that they're no longer fighting the Japanese as well.... But then why would Mao in nineteen forty five say that how that they'd made a major concession to land to the tiller but that this is a correct one and they're going to, that land reform has to be taken in stages and they're going to first of all reduce rent and, I mean er [Philip:] Yes, that's [speaker001:] what you're implying is that how that they had a radical policy in mind but because of the war it had to be moderated but I, somehow I tend to believe the reverse, that how that they may have continued the moderate policy but was forced into it because of circumstances... to, forced to erm into radicalizing their policies. [Philip:] The they certainly moved back to radicalization much more quickly than Mao had, had expected [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] erm and that presumably in, in part is because there is this radical groundswell from... the peasants in, in part because it would need a new policy after nineteen forty five wouldn't you because... not just on, on the financial side but er er a lot of your mobilization has come through,a as you say, nationalism... now once the Japanese are defeated, that's finished. You've also lost your easy targets in terms of up until that point you could always very legitimately attack Japanese collaborators. Now you... y you, you've gotta find a substitute for that.... [speaker001:] Don't you also attack the church? [Philip:] In effect you, you, you, you, you've got the church, you've got erm... you, you might sort of move from collaborators with the Japanese to collaborators with the Kuomintang, I E the counter-revolutionaries. So you would still be able to identify targets... but those targets may become a bit more general, I E because in the past the landlord as a class had always sided with the Kuomintang... then i it gives you the opportunity to go back and attack them, almost the landlords per se in a way you couldn't during the Japanese war because clearly loyal landlords were fighting the Japanese.... But, but you need a new set of targets anyway, and somehow you,y y you've gotta and... the May the fourth directive, by returning to land reform is beginning to open up those as possibilities. [speaker001:] How widespread were the accounts described by? I mean that's just one village, or one county that he's described but how widespread throughout the north [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] it's almost a bit [Philip:] No I, I think there is, there is a lot of evidence that this is happening in all of the villages [speaker001:] Right. [Philip:] er and in some villages they went a great deal further than they did in, in [speaker001:] Right. [Philip:] erm but, but certainly the, the... er er the period has given the Communist Party er quite a large number of... trained cadres which will be able to go out into the villages in a way that they hadn't been able to in... because it would, that was all too soon. But through, through erm the period, particularly after campaigns in nineteen forty one, forty two, you, you, you've got a l a lot of people coming into the Party, then they've all been instilled with the spirit, you can then send them out into the villages. Erm they are going into the villages, they're making contacts with... individual peasants... erm it's those peasants that, that they get to stand up and make the first accusations, it's those peasants who join the Party... erm and the process can build up in, in a way which was more difficult before then. So, so you, you, you have got this basis for mass mobilization... together with some of the education [speaker001:] Mm.... [Philip:] Okay shall we s stop there and have a...? We'll go on to the, the itself.... [break in recording] Right. Okay so we, we, we've the May the fourth directive, er we, we, we've now got the May the fourth directive operational. Tt erm and the, the next thing is the outline agrarian law, so let's, let's have a look at this. First of all what... what is the outline law saying and secondly why is tho those particular provisions necessary? What's, what's the outline er agrarian law all about and what's, what's? [speaker001:] Well... in effect it says that how that it's now the Party is sanctionalizing absolute egalitarianism, the aim that landlords, K M T officers, everyone's going to get equal distribution of land. It also erm... pr it's protecting commerce and industry and that [Philip:] ess essentially i it's, absolute egalitarianism means that everybody within the village or the [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] the, everybody will acquire the same land and the same quality of land. [speaker001:] Yes, and that no gonna be given to C C P cadres or to, or to... landlords [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] it's just... [Philip:] Is, is, is that different to any other land law before, is... well is, is this a new idea or is it just picking up on other... [speaker001:] equalizing quantity and quality, that's, that's an old idea isn't it? [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mao's policies [Philip:] Right. Is, is, is it any different at all from, from that land law of Mao's in nineteen thirty? In, in effect. [speaker001:] Was this erm differences in quality to be made up by more land? Or was it... the same amount of land? [Philip:] Erm... i in, in... in theory if you, if, if you balance quantity and quality everybody should end up with the same. [speaker001:] But with Mao's law it wasn't complete... erm egalitarianism because landlords erm rich peasants were to receive less, they were meant to be penalized weren't they? [Philip:] No not within, that's, that's within the nineteen forty one... law. Surely in, in the nineteen thirty law... Mao's... Mao's policy was, was in effect absolute egalitarianism... in that everybody within the village,in including, depending how you read those definitions, [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] but including possibly landlords or at, at the very worst their families would have a share of land. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] So i i i in a sense this has gone back to... one of Mao's early views, except that, that there is a difference now in that... er... the land is being redistributed for ownership... whereas for Mao earlier it was, it was for your use. Although it's... it's slightly unclear to me you know because if you take article two it's land ownership rights of all landlords are abolished, but then you're distributing land back for their ownership so... it's not quite clear what's happening with that. [speaker001:] the way to do it [Philip:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] [clears throat] Maybe it's their past rights over... [Philip:] Yes. Right so even, even landlords, within this absolute egalitarianism policy, are now to get land. So ev ev everybody in the village will end up with the same amount. [speaker001:] few exceptions. criminals. [Philip:] Right. Yes, fair enough, yeah.... Okay.... So [speaker001:] It's, they [clears throat] have it for ownership instead of state owned [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because of their erm desire to increase production. The [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] Communist Party thought that how that by giving peasants their own land it would give them the incentive to increase production which [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] they needed to [Philip:] Right. And as, as you said, the one exception to all of this is industrial and commercial property. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] So... anything that a landlord or a rich peasant had owned in terms of industry or commerce would be left alone and i it would still be his.... So you, you were in a sense equalizing land ownership but you were not equalizing incomes. You were not equalizing assets.... [speaker001:] In, in many ways there's, well there's as well is that repeat a lot of the things that are said [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] word for word but just sort of changing the vocabulary isn't it? [Philip:] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. [speaker001:] because landlords were seen as progressive and they might want, they di the erm communists didn't want to get rid of them as a class but in their feudal capacity. [Philip:] Right. So this is very much part of the mass line. Th th th this is, it is a mass line at work,th th th there's very little in here in terms of class antagonisms. Erm i i it's more about landlords sort of being reintegrated into a new mass society. [speaker001:] Isn't it, well I mean, isn't it more about just keeping production up? [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] I mean that's what I thought this movement towards egalitarianism isn't, doesn't actually reflect any change in ideology at all. [Philip:] Right. Yeah. Okay so wh why then do we go from the May the fourth erm directive into this specific idea of, of egalitarianism? What, what, why... I mean [speaker001:] Well [Philip:] i i i in a sense it is a, it is a shift to the left because under the May the fourth directive erm rich peasants in particular would've been left out of it altogether and there would still be some landlords who were, who would maintain their property but, but now he's shifted to the left and this, this does represent a further attack on landlords cos, cos everybody comes down to the same level. [speaker001:] Well I think you can look at it on two levels and one, one reason is to change the Party structure shake them up a bit, cos there's, there's evidence that they were erm you know moving to the right and allying with er rich peasants and landlords, and the other, on the level is actually having a policy which would get mass support and this obviously would require incentives in the form of land to peasants. [Philip:] Right. So that, is the basic drive behind this to provide a greater incentive for the, the majority of peasants to support, actively support the Party? [speaker001:] Mm.... [Philip:] Why, why is that needed though? Wh why is [speaker001:] Cos the military situation that it er well from er says you know they realized, apparently, that it was gonna take at least seven years to win over the nationalists so they [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] might need more support. And this [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] was one way of getting it. [Philip:] Right. So th th th there's, there's a heightened need for support because of the... the nature of the civil war now, and, and they are under quite substantial pressure... and therefore you need to mobilize the population behind you and to get that mobilization you, you've got to offer more struggle fruits to the peasants and absolute egalitarianism is the way to offer them the maximum.... [speaker001:] But their two aims conflicted because on the one hand they're trying to protect production and to allow erm... er capit private enterprise and capitalism to develop but on the other hand they're erm trying to redistribute all the land er because the May the fourth directive wasn't going far enough, they, they needed to be more severe upon landlords [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] and erm and so... it appears, if you just take this document at this time, that how that they're placing less emphasis upon production, I mean if their aim is to, if their primary aim is to mobilize mass support that how that production was going to decrease because it was gonna infringe upon rich and middle peasants. [Philip:] Right.... Right.... So... but w w w why is that you need absolute egalitarianism? Why, why have you got to go for equality? [speaker001:] Cos that's one of the communist. Perhaps I mean it's, we don't know in nineteen, October nineteen forty seven whether the Communist Party actually really did think that absolute egalitarianism might be able to work. [Philip:] So so [speaker001:] It was only the events afterwards that proved that it didn't work, but they weren't clear at this time [Philip:] So it's ideology which is driving it. So that, that, that we are now back into socialism, we, we're sort of now back into our communist ideals. [speaker001:] Well that's a possibility. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] It certainly wouldn't be against the ideological... er ideas of the Party but I mean that it was an ideological, it was more practical cos it was, it was related the purification campaign of the Party, cos we know they're having these campaigns [Philip:] Right. Yes. [speaker001:] the May the fourth directive, after [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] and they found a lot of, you know, serious crimes going on in the Party and stuff [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] like that. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] It could be both, it could be pragmatic but also erm furthering the communist cause. Well why did they just, why was it rejected [Philip:] Right [speaker001:] two months later then? Because it was shown to not work. Yeah exactly. Well in other words the pragmatic consideration's far more important than the ideological one is. Yes. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] But we're looking at it with hindsight, we can't just say that because of this this that and the other... erm that pragmatism did overrule at this particular point in time. Oh I dunno, I dunno. I think Mao was quite... keyed up on the whole situation, I think he realized that to win the war they had to... erm adjust the mass support very carefully, and I think that's basically what this... I think that's why two months later they er... they er gave up this document cos he was worried then they'd lose the middle peasants' support. [Philip:] Is, is, is, yes, is there another element to this though, that... what in, in your new more difficult military situation... you need to mobilize the mass of support behind you, which er essentially means mobilizing the poor peasants... is it possible that within the May the fourth directive, although the poor could have done much better, they need not necessarily do very much better. I E th there, there is no guarantee within the May the fourth directive that, that the poor do... significantly... a as a group... all do well because th th they, they, they, there's nothing to guarantee that they all share properly in the fruits of struggle. [speaker001:] No. No. after they had come forward with this [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] directive. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] But that's, but the, this actually sets out that everybody will get the same, it doesn't, it has absolutely nothing to do with people coming forward. [Philip:] So it's a guarantee that everybody [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] will get the same you haven't had [speaker001:] In effect they are, they're appealing to the, the, the poorer peasants hoping to get more mobilization [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] but I think two months later Mao realizes that this is harming [Philip:] Right. S so the position as of say the summer nineteen forty seven when, when you're, you, this law was being formulated... the reports coming back are that although there is the opportunity for the poor to do better, as a, as a matter of course they're not all doing better. Now that's a bit of a surprise to you in the sense that you believed that... ten percent of the population owned eighty percent of the land... and therefore this, this kind of... erm a a attack on, on the rich was happening through the May the fourth directive, that would've produced enough to bring everybody up to a reasonable middle peasant status. And it doesn't seem to be happening.... Now if, if you accept the ten percent owning the eighty percent, there must've been enough... but the poor are not getting it.... So why weren't they getting it? [speaker001:] This is one of 's questions isn't it? When he says that erm [clears throat] that sort of, that's what the C C P leadership thought and so they thought that... if they weren't getting the land then something must be going wrong with the policy [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] and the thing that was going wrong was this erm was this problem of the operation of the cadres. They [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] were basically erm inflicted upon and this sort of er... all the landlords and rich peasants corrupting the whole process. [Philip:] Right. S so it's, it's, it's either that the cadres are being rightist, they are protecting the landlords so they are keeping too much, or the problem is that the cadres, what we looked at earlier, the cadres are getting in themselves and they are taking too much for themselves. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] Right. So the, the May the fourth directive is not working because it's not guaranteeing that the poor get enough to bring them up to the middle peasant status which is, is the aim. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] So th th th the, the outline agrarian law is simply a means of ensuring that everybody will come up to a middle peasant status.... [speaker001:] No But surely that's not possible?... it must be possible But if, if, if you accept this ten percent and the eighty percent that it [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] is possible. [Philip:] Must be possible. [speaker001:] Mm.... [Philip:] I mean if, if, if you've got, if, if, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] if you've got that much land... there must be enough. [speaker001:] Yeah. But argues that how that in actual fact by this time land reform had already taken place and there wasn't enough, any more land to be redistributed. [Philip:] Th th there's going to be some. [speaker001:] Yeah well some but not as much as the Communist Party [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] expected so although [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] th there were cases of cadres being rightist and taking too much land for themselves, the Communist Party [clears throat] actually exaggerated this problem and that the main cause was erm the very low lan land ratio. [Philip:] Right. So a a a a as you say that the problem is that erm as this process gets under way and er i i s so, I, I think it's, it's not just absolute egalitarian in that everybody will get the same, I think there was an assumption that there would be enough for everybody becoming up to a middle peasant status. And therefore i i i it wasn't just the poor s saying well I want the same as everybody else, I want as much as a middle peasant. Now wh what... were, in your introduction w were you saying that there, there simply wasn't enough land for that to happen? And therefore in the process of trying to bring the poor up to er some of the land of the middle peasant had to be taken... and that's a problem isn't it? [speaker001:] Oh very much so because I mean all through this er through this period the communists are making, they, they want to unite themselves firmly with the peasants [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] [clears throat] and so that anything which will possibly infringe the middle peasants would be, would be disastrous. [Philip:] Right. So at the point where it becomes clear that absolute egalitarianism is going to encroach on the interests of the middle peasants, you need to stop it? [speaker001:] ... [Philip:] But [speaker001:] But it could also be used to their advantage in that how that erm absolute egalitarianism would speed up the process of land reform and eliminate feudalism whereas a moderate policy would just take ages for this to happen, so [Philip:] Yes. Right. [speaker001:] it was an expediency at the time. [Philip:] A justifiable one? [speaker001:] Mm.... [Philip:] So the outline agrarian law policy was the right policy?... [speaker001:] I, no I, I get the impression that, you know, everyone just... everyone just kind of freaked out end of nineteen forty six forty seven and they were just, oh God what are we gonna do now,wh what can we do to get some more support, oh excellent, yeah, let's go for equal distribution, what a great idea and then all of a sudden they think oh no, it's not, you know, perhaps it's not such a good idea after all. I really, I really get the impression that there's, there's, it's incredibly sort of nobody really knows what to do, you know, there's this big turbulent thing just happening... and people are very confused about the whole thing because [clears throat] the M May the fourth directive isn't particularly er it didn't give anybody an absolute guideline, guide to erm what to do. In October nineteen forty six Mao says to the cadres look, get land reform sorted out, don't worry about the war, just get land reform sorted out! You know and they probably went well yeah, what do we do? What, what exactly [LAUGHTER] are we meant to do. Can't blame them with the K M T knocking on your though. What? Well you can't really blame them that much with the K M T knocking on the door. Well I dunno, I mean on the one hand in nine in nineteen forty five I think it was, they were saying you know well in order to do, have s s s successful land reform you need three conditions, they said the same thing in nineteen forty eight, they said you need this, this, this and then we have to be militarily secure but then in nineteen forty six they're saying [LAUGHTER] no, don't worry about it, just get [] the land reform sorted out, just do it. And I, I really get the impression that, for a while, you know there was, there was just this incredible rush and they just thought oh we've got to do something, and, and tha that's what and this idea that you've gotta be right But why was there an incredible rush? I mean What? where was that incredible rush coming from? The war, I reckon. [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] I reckon it starts with the war. [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No they all of a sudden really need support. They saw that, you know the, this wa wash your face campaign and all of a sudden their cadres were pretty unpopular and they thought goodness me, we're really doing something, we're just doing something wrong and we've got to try and mobilize support, we need a radical policy. [Philip:] Right. Isn't,i i this is back, Simon [speaker001:] they have,th that they need sort of a radical policy to mobilize support erm when all the oth all the other radical policy [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] that, that... do you... it, it's this sort of catch twenty two between erm land reform and mass mobilization. Do you need mass mobilization in order to get land reform or is the only way in which you can achieve land reform... to have mes mass mobilization? [speaker001:] Well I th I get the impression that there's sort of a, there's an assumption that the communists are making is that, you know you get land reform sort of like give these people a bit of land [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and fight for me. [Philip:] Have you got a better idea? [speaker001:] Well no [LAUGHTER] no [] [LAUGHTER] there is no better way, but er the problem with that is that, you know okay, you might get, you might get some peasants who say well we're really grateful, we'll go off and fight but some of them might just say no look, we've got some land I'm not gonna leave it, But they should put in little sort of qualifications like er... er they gave people land and if they went off to fight then it would be guaranteed that the land would be tilled. I think that's very important. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] Because I think one of the most worrying things that for the soldiers at the front was will their family be looked after and will their land sort of be alright when they get back [Philip:] Yes, yeah. [speaker001:] Cos it was quite a respectable position as well wasn't it? And also I think not everyone was accepted in the army, they sent a lot of people back. Yeah. That's right. [Philip:] yes. [speaker001:] Because of what? Because they weren't fit enough physically... even mentally ill I should imagine will be sent. What, cos they weren't committed enough to it? [Philip:] Er now w w w we've got this position during the course of nineteen forty seven and it's, it's, it's really the first half of forty seven which I think is the crucial one when the launch its offensive erm it's, it's a very big shock for, for the communists,th th they, you know, itself is overrun and [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] th th they defend that against the Japanese and then in, early in forty seven the come in and take it over so it's an enormous psychological shock erm and they recognize that erm they, they, they do need to er they recognize that the way is through mass support, they think that's what they've gotta get, and they've gotta get it quickly. In a sense they, they were back now in, in the situation that they, they needed support from the peasantry quickly and surely the way to do that was to offer them land, to give them land reform because rent reduction interest ra interest rate reduction is not enough. You've got to go the land reform.... And if you go for the land reform, if you promise the peasants the land erm and you're moving towards a position of,y you, you... you're still thinking exactly what your policy is but under that might come a... a realization that absolute egalitarianism is the best way of doing this, look th th there is enough land for us to be able to do this, this is the simplest process which will guarantee for middle peasant status, it will bring their, their living standards up to acceptable levels.... I if we go for land reform we will get mass mobilization.... I mean i it's, it's a fair enough strategy isn't it? [speaker001:] I think that's what, I think [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] in the end of the speech about, you know if, if agrarian reform is thorough [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] You know I think that was very much what they had in mind. [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] mobilize people [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But it's all based upon their assumption that land reform was the erm... the solution to the agrarian problem. They saw that how that, they saw the Chinese problem essentially as one of exploitation and that how that as soon as, that they saw it as the land problem [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] erm... now if... they, I mean they didn't even consider that how other options which might have increased the living standards because land reform [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] would enable them to get into power [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] and that was what, I mean if they had erm decided to take more te point of view and to increase production through improved methods of farming and so on, that prob erm I mean we can see that that would've created higher yields and that, because we've assessed the situation now [Philip:] Yes but how long would that take? [speaker001:] That would take ages so... they're having land reform as a means to an end and that how that it's improving living standards of peasants so that they get mass support, land reform was the only political option they had. [Philip:] Right. Fine.... But is, is, I mean w w what we've said so far is that the problem with this is that there isn't enough land and therefore it encroaches on the middle peasant and, and that's the problem, that's the reason you had to change your policy. But was that the only problem? What, what about the poor themselves? You know y y y y you're a poor peasant and the Party's coming in in conditions of civil war and we say right erm... we've gotta get land reform and the land reform process is being done, not by the Party coming in and imposing it, it is very much done by the Party encouraging and enabling the peasants to, to take the moves themselves, to stand up and begin the criticism.... Ho how can you, going to be, to do that, I mean right you're a poor peasant and I explain to you all the benefits of land reform, what are you gonna say to me? [speaker001:] Well it depends, you know, it depends if I expect erm my landlord to come back and chop my head off or something. [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] I mean that's, that's very important, there was a lot of suffering, I think it's about the people who, I can't remember returned to the villages [Philip:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker001:] and they meted out some terrible retribution of people who [Philip:] Absolutely, yeah. [speaker001:] communist. [Philip:] Yes. So [speaker001:] Especially if the K M T [Philip:] Exactly. So if, if you are a poor peasant you are thinking hold on... the Party expects me to stand up to this landlord and accuse him of this this and this, actually point a finger at him when there is a chance that, you know, the Kuomintang is, is twenty miles away... and they, I know they've come into other villages as they come back, m of land to peasants.s in the form of land [speaker001:] There must've been... with erm in forty seven was it the encirclement campaign where they allowed the nationalists to sort of drive through the, I don't know the defences, they must've been fairly certain of their support in certain areas by then. Because they actually allowed the, the nationalists to, to sort of drive a an attack through into villages and take over erm and they, they assumed that they would drive too far erm [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] so they must've been fairly sure of their support to allow them to come into an area of villages. they acknowledged as a mistake later on didn't they? [Philip:] I mean in a sense they were just sacrificing peasants for that strategy.... But, but, but once, once the, the stories get around that the communists have not created a strong enough military base to guarantee that land reform will hold [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] and you know what happens, I mean I, [LAUGHTER] [] and therefore you er there, there might be a problem within in that you might not get the necessary mass mobilization support from the land reform because of the, of the possible consequences. [speaker001:] Well it did up the stakes somewhat didn't it? [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] If you were gonna go for it, but then they, they changed it didn't they? When they had their sort of semi liberated areas and stuff. [Philip:] Right, okay so out of this comes a [speaker001:] Yeah they realize that [Philip:] a different set of policies but but as of forty seven the strategy is we need to mobilize the masses quickly behind us now, there must be enough land to give the er peasants enough. Th the only reason there might not,i i i if they're not getting enough it is because erm... ei either too much land is being held by the landlords because the cadres are, or the cadres taking the land. [speaker001:] [blowing nose] [Philip:] Now er er out of that comes the view well maybe this is [speaker001:] [cough] [Philip:] maybe we've got to guarantee security first and then go on, and secondly a realization well maybe there may not be enough land. And therefore more protection for the middle peasants.... But, but, but that would ex at least explain why the outline agrarian law takes the form that it did and what was the thinking behind it.... [speaker001:] But we're saying if you look at, right, these two factors, one is the... you've got land reform... er on absolute egal dunno what you call it grounds, the other is that you're getting the peasants to do it themselves [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] they're just simple... really measures of the urgency of the situation. [Philip:] Yes. Yeah.... [speaker001:] otherwise erm what did, how did they mo mobilize enough er forces then? Because we decided that they didn't have a, a strong enough military base er w w w what erm gave the peasants the incentive to, to join? [Philip:] Well er er quite a lot of peasants did join because they, presumably they were motivated by land reform, er it's clear that that did happen [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] and i it wasn't in all areas that the came back, I mean in some areas there was enough security but you wouldn't know which area was going to be secure. [speaker001:] Right. [Philip:] But it was er er I mean i it's clear that the policy was, was successful... in that they do mobilize a lot of peasants and, and they [speaker001:] [blowing nose] [Philip:] the nationalist offences so I mean that bit of it worked. It's just that the costs involved in a lot of peasants being killed and you then begin to encroach on middle peasants. So y y you're, you're weighing the gains of, it's a success, it is successful in terms of mobilization, but there are costs involved. [speaker001:] Oh. I would have thought it's, it would be harder and harder to, to mobilize the peasants. I mean, weren't they getting... quite tired of these land reforms? years. [Philip:] Er mm I don't think so because the, the, we, we are [clears throat]... with all of this we are still in north China so this was the first time land reform has come.... Erm and therefore the, the, the peasant wasn't yet in a position where, my God this is not another land ran [LAUGHTER] land reform [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] er... I mean I, I don't think that had begun to build up but yes I mean that, that... is coming to be a problem. I mean er and if you go through it goes on and on and on erm and the changes in policy come to be a problem. Erm... one thing before we move on... do you think there is a distinction or a difference between the outline agrarian land reform which is essentially 's creation, and the speech that he gives at the end of the conference? Do, do they conflict at all?... In that... i i in the speech isn't recognizing some of the difficulties, isn't he recognizing the need to protect the middle peasant? And, and, and, and, and, and are, are there points in, in the speech where he specifically says you, you must protect the interests of the middle peasant [speaker001:] Mm The speech was written before the... er which speech are we talking about? [Philip:] The... speech concluding the national land conference. Yes, but, but... the national land conference approved... the outline agrarian law... erm and then it be it became formal policy in October so it is after, but, but it was the land conference which actually ratified it.... [speaker001:] Yeah is, what you're saying is that on the one hand he was saying right let's have absolute equality of distribution but at the same time he quite clear that peasants. [Philip:] Right. So i i i Yeah. I mean i i i in a sense I think he was, he's been criticized unfairly for, for this because he... he, he copped all the blame for absolute egalitarianism, whereas in fact if, if you look at the details behind it he was aware of the dangers of encroachment on the middle peasant and was warning against that and saying look this shouldn't happen. So if... if the cadres had taken the law and... 's speech there shouldn't've been the sorts of problems that, that we came up against. I E the, the middle peasant shouldn't have been encroached upon. But then if the middle peasant wasn't encroached upon, the poor wouldn't've got enough. [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] So that y you, you, you couldn't win either way.... Right.... So... the law was, was implemented, it became fa clear fairly quickly that, in the process of that implementation, it did lead to encroachment on the r middle peasant. At that point you have to call a halt to it.... [speaker001:] Well what you consider the er middle peasants to be and obviously the erm [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] communists er placed a great deal of importance [blowing nose] cos as, as a class they were a great body [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] cos as land reform's more and more successful then presumably more people were becoming middle peasants. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] They made up almost forty percent of the army [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] erm [clears throat] I think there was, there was erm, they definitely made the decision by then to... sacred cow and they can't harm the middle peasants [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] Yeah, Mao said... we support the peasants' demand for equal distribution of land in order to help the masses of peasants speedily to abolish the system of land ownership, but we do not advocate absolute egalitarianism, whoever advocates absolute egalitarianism is wrong, such thinking is reactionary, backward and retrogressive in nature Yeah. [Philip:] it's a pretty nasty criticism [speaker001:] Yeah, [Philip:] the whole, whole basis of [speaker001:] then he goes on to explain why And this is in nineteen forty eight is it? Yeah. But at the same time so presumably he would've supported it. Yeah the l that's the laughable thing as well, he tries to criticize it on ideological grounds [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] which they admitted work cos it was a load of rubbish. [Philip:] Right. Yes. [speaker001:] But what about when, I dunno i it... in his speech he's being very honest and saying well look we really need the support blah blah and the and then tries to put this er bit in about erm Marxist Leninism [LAUGHTER] that's life and... is er well wh what's all that about? [Philip:] I think he's trying to do a number of things here [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] and this is the problem an an and as you get into them they all do begin to conflict. But in terms of the change of policy, does this fit with the, the kind of Maoist view of excesses? That is to right a wrong you need to go to excess. [speaker001:] No I don't think so, I think there's a difference... because the other excesses were on the peasants' part... now it's okay whatever the peasants did, you know, it's not terrible it's, it's fine to let the peasants do that, and also erm... into the war period the peasants are gonna but mustn't do it, this time it's like okay, now we're the party that's saying let's go as far as we can. [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] It's the party actually saying that we should promote rather than allow. [Philip:] Who's er who's doing the excesses? Who's taking? [speaker001:] Well it's [Philip:] It's the poor isn't it because they [speaker001:] Yeah but it's on the instruction it's on the instructions of [Philip:] Not, no not [speaker001:] Cos the poor they can do what they want sort of bits, I've got a bit here and it says... all landlords may be [LAUGHTER] liquidated immediately [] you know [Philip:] right. Yes. [speaker001:] So so the, the leadership [Philip:] Right. [speaker001:] did get it all wrong and [Philip:] Well but e bu bu but that i is inconsistent with what is telling us,th there's nothing in 's speech which, which whi which condones that kind of excessive violence.... I mean if, if you take his view it's fairly moderate. You're quite right that a number of er statements are coming out which, which do really give... give erm legitimacy to this kind of violence bu bu but basically the violence is still being created or led by the poor in their attempt to, to get more. Now [speaker001:] No but that was a result of the er lan land law in itself wasn't it? [Philip:] Yes. Well i it, it, certainly it, it allowed you to do that [speaker001:] Yes. [Philip:] but I think one... one might still see this in terms of, of Mao's ideas on excesses that, that clearly the situation was not right in the first half of, of nineteen forty seven. The May the fourth directive hadn't gone far enough, you needed to go beyond that. Y y you needed to right that wrong. Now in order to move yourself forward you might need to go to excess, you might need at least to tolerate excesses.... Once you've gone too far, and I think this is where the centre is crucial, the centre has got to, to say we have gone, this is the point where we have gone too far and we need to stop. But you then ended up somewhere which was better than where you started off from. And in order to get from A to B you needed to go to excess. [speaker001:] Mm. Well... yeah but the reason I think you can condemn the excesses is because it's [clears throat] middle peasants to waver [Philip:] Yes. [speaker001:] er [Philip:] Bu bu bu but but er but you're not unhappy with those excesses taking place because th they may be necessary in order to move you forward.... [speaker001:] more and more saying look and let's try and kill a few less people. [Philip:] Ah but, but only when it's realized it, it's gone too far.... [speaker001:] Yeah but w w too far because it's affecting the middle peasants. [Philip:] Peasants. That becomes your criterion? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Philip:] Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah he didn't really care... he wasn't too bothered but at least that's what he said at one point But if, if you've got that idea of what Mao's idea of excess is you know that you can have excesses then you go f forward and then you come back there [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that in itself... is the Party saying we should do this. I mean it's not just letting the excesses go which I think understand it when you first said it, so that idea in itself is a Party idea, it's not just letting the, the peasants do it and say well okay... what you're trying to say now is that okay that we have got this strategy, we'll let the excesses go and then we'll stop it, we get to about stage B and stage C and move on and move on. That in itself is a Party isn't it? [Philip:] Er... yes, the, the, I think the one bit of it that is not Mao's is that, is that you do unfortunately in a [LAUGHTER] sense [] sense have these statements from the, the various bureaux and this is a,th this absolute terror is okay. Erm er I mean if you go back to 's view,i it is, it's legitimate for the, for the masses to commit excesses, it's not legitimate for the Party to promote them. Now I think in 's view those Party s those bureaux statements were excessive and, and... I think you wouldn't probably have gone along with them, or at least he, he oughtn't to within his own terms of reference. Erm but without that as long as it's the masses who are committing this it's, it's okay because you, you need that in order to create the [door banging] When it's gone too far, when it's counter-productive in a, not for the individual middl poor peasant because he's doing very well out of it, but in terms of the movement as a whole, you begin to stop it.... [speaker001:] [clears throat] And who makes that decision? [Philip:] It's Mao's.... [speaker001:] How much, how much erm by a landlord cos I mean they didn't even attend the conference. Apparently. [Philip:] I, I, I find it difficult to believe he would not have known that. I mean for Christ sake it's a conference lasts three months [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] I mean o okay it's, it's a difficult area but I, I just don't believe the communications were that bad that he didn't know what was going on and wasn't in a position to say look this is wrong. I, I think he knew about it, I think he was happy with it because... I mean as, as, as we've seen th th one can build up a, quite a convincing rationale for it [speaker001:] Mm. [Philip:] erm if, if, if you, if you, if you take this view of excesses you're not unhappy for that to happen in order to move it forward... as long as you maintain the control necessary to stop it when it's gone too far, which is exactly what he does. I mean as soon as it's clear that the middle peasants are coming under pressure... December nineteen forty seven, he begins to issue statements, we must protect the middle peasant and as, as said the, the, the nineteen thirty three class documents are reissued er which make it very clear that, that middle peasants must be protected. [speaker001:] So do you think that erm when this law was erm pushed through in nineteen forty seven that er perhaps Mao... you know well I think there's been a bit of excess now, I think we'll do some we just need, we just need a bit of a rush now just to take us through a bit and then we'll stop it in a few months time. [Philip:] Mm. Mm right. It's either that deliberate or a, a sort of er one stage back where well if it leads to excesses it won't actually matter... because we may, it might be necessary and we can stop it anyway. [speaker001:] Mm. It's like giving the appearance of the Party following the peasants but in fact the Party's got a good idea where they will probably go anyway. [Philip:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm a very subtle, very behind the scenes... [Philip:] But, but if, if you followed Mao's speech it, there shouldn't be much in the way of excess anyway. I it, it's, you've got these other statements now I think the they're the real problem, those are the ones which, which really do lead to not just condone but support and encourage the excesses which are the problem. Cos I mean, I mean I think that, that there is, there are two things, one is the excesses in terms of, of landlords being killed, and the other is, is the encroachment on middle peasants er er er they are different things. There's the t the violence of it and the excesses in terms of, of the effects on the middle peasant.... We, we'd better stop there. Can, can we, we'll pick this at this point [speaker001:] Quickly that if what you're saying is true that how that erm they wanted to er that they, they didn't care that this could lead to excesses because they could control of the situation, wasn't that a bit damnable because supposing they couldn't?... [Philip:] Yeah

[speaker001:] Erm... what, what we do today is to... way go back over some of the ideas about land reform and then carry them through to the ninety fifty er Agrarian Reform Bill. Erm... [cough] what we've been looking at is the process of land reform.... Tt... and we're obviously looking at a process of land reform which has, has undergone a number of changes and I think we, we've begun to see some of the influences on those changes and particularly over the, the last week or so the... this has.... Tt er... and i in a sense there's kind of been an upward trend in terms of progression through that, that reform but within that there have obviously been a number of and in a sense what we've been coming to terms with is, is what has been causing those, those variations, those changes in that policy.... Tt and I think we've identified in a number of... different factors erm... er behind that, that trend and that erm... i in a sense there's, there's the kind of distinction between the ideological approach and... the pragmatic approach... in that we, we've seen there is a, I think a, a broad ideological impetus behind the reform in the sense that there is this long-term commitment to overthrowing feudalism. There is this commitment to overthrowing feudalism through class struggle and there is I think this vision that under new society will be more egalitarian, not completely egalitarian [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] I think there is, there is an attempt to move in that direction for a set of ideological reasons. But we've also seen that the various,th that there is a whole range of, of practical day to day... issues which have come up which have, have like distorted a s a straightforward progression along those ideological lines tt... and... in particular over the last we, we've, we've identified the political and military factors erm [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] which have been relevant there and the political factors during the Japanese war, the... a need to form a united front, a need to moderate policy and then, over the course of nineteen forty six, forty seven, the need to move in a more radical direction, to go back to land reform and, and land reform a scale in terms of absolute egalitarianism because that was seen as the way of, of mobilizing mass peasant support, particularly amongst the poor, most quickly. So one of the influences on, on the progress of land reform is, is this interaction between ideology and pragmatism.... Perhaps er er... another way of looking at this would be to see it in terms of rightist deviations and leftist deviations and one might see erm the er the moderate policies [sniff] er of thirty seven to forty nine i in a sense as being erm... a rightist deviation, one might see forty six forty seven as being leftist deviations and... the left is seeking to overcome rightist deviations, the right seeking to overcome leftist deviations and you've got some kind of oscillation between the two.... Tt... so that th the er there's that aspect to it, which I think er complements rather than contradicts the, the ideological pragmatism one.... Another way of looking at this might be... to say... in a sense there are... there are two bits, one is identifying where we are now and identifying in relation to both [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] ideological position and in terms of, of the practical realities, both in terms of rightist and leftist deviations, where we want to be. So in any one point in time... the movement is going to depend on identifying exactly where you are at the moment in terms of any of the cycles and where it is you want to get to in relation to, to a particular situation facing you. So I think there are, there are all those kind of bits which are there in terms of the understanding of, of where policy was and where it was going. Tt now if we just take that, that latter point up for a minute we can [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] look in early nineteen forty eight... where we are,wh where the land reform process had taken the Communist Party... tt and then we could begin to look forward to... where policy was going to go from there in terms of the military, political, economic, ideological future... and what I'm going to do today to, to begin with anyway is, is to just consider where we are and where it is we're gonna go and in a sense we could, it might be helpful to, to put ourselves back in a position of being the central committee again.... Now what, what was emerging in the end of [clears throat] last week's discussion... was that there's been the agrarian land law, land law of er [clears throat] October nineteen forty seven, absolute egalitarianism... and a recognition certainly by the spring of... nineteen forty eight that that had overstepped the mark at least in terms of its implementation in that it had in particular led to the encroachment of middle [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] peasant... and that that had had adverse consequences in terms of maybe economic output, certainly in terms of mobilization, certainly in terms of, of political effect on, on the middle peasant... and therefore there had to be the, the correcting bit to this... and that correction comes either very late forty seven but particularly early nineteen forty eight... when the excesses of the, the campaigns and excesses against the middle peasants have to be, be corrected... and there are very clear statements from Mao that the middle peasant must not be encroached upon. Perhaps a bit more than that, the old nineteen thirty three class differentiation documents are reissued... and they are reissued together with the supplements which we saw came out in the autumn of nineteen thirty three which... and, and those supplements where then extended to allow the middle peasant to... er up to twenty five, on some of the readings up to thirty percent, of his income from exploitation. So it's not just the, the standard middle peasant who is being protected, it is if you like the well to do middle peasant who's being protected.... So there is, there is this very clear and I think very substantial protection for the middle peasant. Over and above that, Mao is [clears throat] is in a sense coming up with, with a new set of proposals. He [clears throat] he's arguing I think on a basis of, of the experience of the past few years... that the situation now in China was a, was a rather variable one, that land reform had proceeded at different rates in different areas... and because areas where different that had to be taken into account... and Mao explicitly was going back to the idea that in the newly liberated areas the policy would be one of rent reduction, interest rate reduction... and that rent and interest rate reduction had to be established for some time until the position had consolidated around rent reduction, around interest rate reduction... and once that had happened you would then be able to go into land reform itself. In a sense Mao is, is adopting very much the position that he seems to have taken erm in nineteen forty five when he's, he's looking forward to land return but saying at the moment our policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction will continue and at some stage we will then be able to move on into, to that reform. So there's a clear policy for, for newly liberated areas.... As far as the old liberated areas were concerned, there was going to be a kind of land investigation again. There would be a reassessment of how the land reform process had worked. Where it was found that middle peasants had been encroached upon, where it was found that middle peasants had been dispossessed erm... that position would be rectified and that would be given back to middle peasants.... So very different policies for the old and new liberated areas.... And in a sense Mao is saying that it's, it's not right to go straight for land reform, you, you've got to go for this policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction first. And alongside this [clears throat] went a much stronger wash your face campaign and the names of the, names of Party members were published. Erm Mao was worried that as,i in the course of the, the latter stages of directive and the... there had been abuses of the system by Party members and that had led to the Party getting a bad name with the peasants and the way to rectify that was to publish the Communist Party membership so everybody in the village would know who was a Communist Party member and they would be able to see, Mao believed, that on the whole Party members had behaved properly, they hadn't exploited the situation for their own advantage... and where they have they would be, there would be a with them to correct.... Now... that I think is, is the position as of the spring of nineteen forty [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Can I just stop there for a minute er er is this the best [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] any, any points anything anybody would like to add to this? [speaker002:] Did you call it wash your fact sort of? [speaker001:] Mm.... Yes I mean it, it can be, I think it can be. It's not something which is introduced for the first time in nineteen forty eight but, but there is erm sort of another round of it erm and... sort of the new dimension is that the, everybody's name is published because until then you, you didn't er you didn't know who the Party members were. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker001:] Right.... Now... we need to decide... where to go from here.... Now I, I, I er our, our, in a sense our policy now is that we're going to sort of readjust the policy in, in the north. As we go into the south we are just going to conduct a rent reduction, interest reduction campaign and we, we will then aim to consolidate that position and at some stage we will then move forward into land reform again, but to do that we will probably need a new land law because we're recognizing the old agrarian land law is, is inappropriate, absolute egalitarianism... is now dead in a sense of as erm... it's sort of saying that, that as Mao is arguing in May forty eight, May forty eight that absolute egalitarianism is wrong. So, so, so that bit of it we've, we've moved forward. Er... are you happy with this idea that, that... sort of the immediate future in the newly liberated areas is, is just rent reduction, interest rate reduction, consolidate that and then move on? Do does this seem to be the right policy?... [speaker002:] It would have more affect in the south... [clears throat] on the moderate side erm it would, would stand a better chance than [speaker001:] Yes, right. [speaker002:] and as a starting point [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] and there's more of a justified presence. [cough] [speaker001:] So that it, it would actually fit the conditions in the south in terms that we are, you're moving into an area of, of higher tenancy and therefore rent reduction, interest rate reduction is, would have a significant effect. Right.... [speaker002:] you say this rent reduction? Oh cos I, I thought they erm... they had the three different areas [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] but erm I thought forty eight, areas where and carry out [speaker001:] Yes, I, I think that was... that was still when the... I think that was still in a sense under the auspices of the old agrarian... er of the of forty seven was still being given by. Erm I think bro broadly, certainly by the time you've got through to the later spring th th there is... y yes I mean i in a sense there are sort of three areas if you like but, but very broadly the areas which had not been taken over yet i is very much a slower process of consolidation and then you wait for the next rule.... Er you're happy with this, this seems... okay in terms of policy... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Doesn't it seem slightly odd though?... In the sense that, in a way going on from what I was saying... on the face of it south China ought to be the area where... land reform will be easiest to achieve... in the sense that here you've got a society which is landlord dominated, heavily landlord dominated... and therefore w where one would expect that the antagonism, antagonisms between landlords and tenants would be at their greatest.... I in, in the north you've got a higher proportion of owner-occupiers and [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] you perhaps haven't got the same degree of landlord exploitation, you might, I think one might argue from, from what we said earlier that in the north you've got a s a slightly more paternalistic landlord, it's, it, there's less, less absentee landlordism... landlords were more likely to have been behaving within the confines of moral economy... wouldn't, wouldn't have been... tt erm reducing rents, it was done on a much more, more personal sort of scale. You move into the south which is the area where landlord exploitation might have been at its most intense, where you would expect antagonisms to be greatest, where one would expect that peasants would be actually demanding land reform and, and... indeed if you, you go back to, to the you've clearly got that almost spontaneous underlying radicalism because of the, the intense landlord exploitation. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] What we're saying on the whole is that we, we are moving south... erm militarily we, we now control most of north China, we begin to move on to the into areas of very high tenancy where landlordism was thought to be at its extreme but all we're doing is reducing rents and interest rents. [speaker002:] I think if, if they adopted a policy of erm of struggle last time, I mean they would get to land reform indirectly but I don't think you can erm initiate it from the Party as such like because that causes all sorts of problems through definitions and things like that but [cough] yeah I think right but I think the way of analyzing is through just saying... you, what are your grievances and then ultimately that will result in landlords being driven out. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] So they've learnt that they can't implement land reform unless they've got the support of the popular masses and it's got to come from them cos ultimately they, they're pursuing land reform in order to get the peasant support and if that's not what they want there's no point in just erm [clears throat] imposing it on them. You've got to, the peasants have got to be demanding it themselves. [speaker001:] Alright, so what you've learnt from the experience in North China is that you are actually better off to go in fairly gently [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and... begin the process and then allow the peasants to kind of take it over, to become involved, to become vocal and to become activated. [speaker002:] And you've got to educate the masses and perhaps instil... erm more revolutionaries, sort of a more, a culture that actually sees that they're not gonna gain just material benefits but how that this is in order to advance society forward. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yes and take control of them in terms of direction and so on. Yes. Mm. [clears throat] [speaker001:] in a sense though you're putting a lot more emphasis on the Party. You're saying it's the, it's the, it's the Party that, that erm mobilizes them, there is, there is actually very little spontaneous revolutionary charge within the peasantry. That, that you've got to create it for them. [speaker002:] I mean by just doing this sort of settling of accounts is that creating it for them? Er I mean is that creating a sparkle? I think... I mean it's a, it's a very small sparkle just saying [cough] now's a chance to erm Is, isn't the idea that most likely to make people believe that they can achieve a certain thing and let them get up and do it and erm... so that the Party's role is in the initial stage fostering as much mobilization [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] creating a common consciousness and then let the peasants go with that. Not do actually do the land reform themselves, but to create the conditions whereby they can believe in themselves. [speaker001:] Right. So land reform is, is, and this will be very counter to nineteen forty seven, land re land reform is, is not now the means of mobilizing the masses, you have to mobilize the masses for land reform.... And this rent reduction, interest rate reduction together with the kind of settling accounts procedure which presumably will come out of this is the means by which you mobilize the masses and once you've got them mobilized, you can then move on to land reform. But it's, it's premature to go for land reform straight away. [speaker002:] Yeah. I, I [cough] bring up this point about the masses being... were the masses revolutionary or not [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and I remember doing my first, one of my first essays erm saying that I didn't think they were and all that they were erm was the fact that er er of and you said to me at the end that's fine as far you've argued it but I think you'll change your views as you go on and I don't know if I have. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right []. [speaker002:] So erm I don't whether or not I s I still don't think they were ultimately revolutionary, I think they were just erm... people who they think were exploiting them at the time sort of erm you know in a certain situation Just because they weren't revolutionary doesn't mean that they didn't have the potential to become revolutionary I know. Sure. Yeah. and erm it was But they di didn't have the idea of revolution in themselves, they didn't have the idea of overthrowing the landlords themselves. But maybe cos there was no opportunity, they didn't see there to be... I mean like they didn't know any better but as soon as, I mean things are rapidly changing they're given the opportunity to erm I mean through the struggles to actually take charge of the conditions and to gain so some material and perhaps there was beginnings of them seeing that well... perhaps we ought to look more to this sub-culture and to erm... Well I mean it's change their values. it's very Party initiated isn't it? The Party's giving [cough] putting these ideas into their heads of erm... creating a society in which But then the peasants surely should be able to choose to accept or reject what the Party is trying to... instil... in a way. Yeah. But I mean it's the idea, the idea is coming, is not coming from themselves, it's coming from the Party that, that er that you can create a system without landlords. It has to though because if in the pa if they've had this... long-term sort of culture for all this time they need to be given ideas but essentially if their traditional values were so strong they would have rejected what the Communist Party was trying to say, but because they accepted it it meant they ha they did actually have the potential to be revolutionary. [speaker001:] And... going on from that surely we argue that the May the fourth directive... came about or certainly was, was put out as this is what the peasants three times the peasants had demanded land return... I E they were in advance of the Party, they were more radical, they, they were, in a way they were saying look this, this rent reduction is not enough... we want a much stronger programme, we actually want the land reform.... [speaker002:] And that's what the directive says? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] [clears throat] Well maybe they [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] but that's, that's entirely logical [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] the, the more you argue for this economy, and the more you argue no this is, this really is how the peasant felt and he... that the peasant really erm... didn't have any ideas of changing society at that of the landlord system... the more I assume that... one would support this kind of rent reduction, interest rate reduction campaign which allows you to slowly build up that mobilization which is necessary.... The,th th th the o the other thing that is I think, I think there is something in this, is that there was, at least within some sections of the peasantry, erm er a, a kind of erm revolutionary zeal which they were building themselves and they were wanting to go beyond the Party. And, and that would derive from cases where landlord exploitation was particularly severe and therefore peasants were saying no... rent reduction, interest rate reduction is not enough, we want to go further than that now. And I think there is that element there.... [speaker002:] Mm. And you think that's not just a sort of relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of you know, the... sort of mid nineteen thirties... or you think it's always been there? You know just an idea Yeah whether or not you... whether or not you think it's been induced by the fact that, that they've heard what happened in and they think that they can start doing that as opposed to ch as opposed to just saying we're going to exist by creating [speaker001:] sure, there may be some thinking that, there may also though be... er if you move through to the forties you're,y you're twenty years on from the nineteen twenties, you, you've had and you've had deterioration in agricultural conditions er... as, as we've seen you've got erm increasing landlord absenteeism, you, you've got a downward, an upward pressure on rent... in terms of how much was having to be paid in real terms, all of those things might have come together to, to, to push the peasant over and to push him outside. It it's it's a possibility [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] erm... I, I don't... I, I would be a little unhappy saying the peasant still, in the nineteen forties, was st totally still bound by foreign economy [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] but clearly there, there is an element of that, there is an element that they'd gone beyond it that's... that that bit... is difficult to define and quantify.... [speaker002:] What was erm... how, how badly was the south by affected by the Japanese, I mean what were the peasants likely to have gone through in the last few years?... [cough] [speaker001:] Erm they would not... have gone through the same sort of occupation. Erm the Japanese presence in the south was, was more just along the coast, they, they, they'd taken the trading ports erm... and they had some of the interior but on, on the whole south China had not been... dominated by the Japanese,th th th their base was very much the north China plain and, and spreading across towards... the communist areas. I mean they cut in through Manchuria down the north to, to, across to north China plain, had taken the cities on the eastern seaboard which was what they wanted, I mean th th... they really wasn't any point in... controlling the rural south, it would have taken so many troops, so much administration if they'd that then they had everything they wanted from the trading ports so... there wasn't that Japanese presence and so the [cough] clearly was different. [speaker002:] Mm. So they're not trying to, you know, get themselves back together again having... erm you know, the Japanese having left and, you know [cough] the villages have been razed and all that sort of stuff? [speaker001:] Er there would have been some cases where that had happened... erm and clearly the nationalists had withdrawn from most of southern China into, into south west China and therefore erm... th th there'd been er and there was quite a lot of fighting going, still going across south China so i it's not [paper rustling] quite the same. [speaker002:] the nationalists don't have so much of hold now over the south. [speaker001:] Er they do after, yes th the, the nationalists had moved back across the south after nineteen forty five erm... th th they'd, they'd retreated from the Japanese progressively after nineteen forty one and abandoned Shanghai and etcetera. They now moved back, in sympathy with the Japanese surrender, they moved back and the nationalists took Shanghai and really controlled the whole of, of south China again so that the, the old landlord system had been re-established.... [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Sorry you were going to say something. [speaker002:] Erm... no what coming out of this is that how that... although one would assume in the south that the peasants ought to be more revolutionary, in actual fact it's the reverse and why is this happening, is it because of the fact that the Communist Party were in the n that maybe essentially... that the peasants in China er were reactionary and worked within the confines of moral economy, but because of the presence of the Communist Party in the north they became more revolutionary and that's sort of suggested by the success of land reform there and the fact that how, that they can't implement it in the south. Or is it because there's a different culture in the north and south because the, the two parts of China are very different, so you don't know whether it's... the Communist Party that's determining this difference or whether it's just because of a difference of culture there. And it's, it's difficult for us to tell because we don't have that [LAUGHTER] many regional studies [] to be able to know exactly what it was that was determining... these differences of values. [speaker001:] Yes, but there might be some important differences that we would want to bring up, which we, we perhaps could take a bit further. Erm there might for example be economic differences. Now... tt... if you look at it this way,le let's suppose that the Communist Party was successful in its military campaign and it, it... takes military control of south China, which it was beginning to then, and did up to nineteen forty eight... [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] could you, and therefore its political position is becoming increasingly secure... erm and... the... there was no major military threat... to land reform. There was no reason in terms of a... a, a military position why you shouldn't have introduced land reform in, in the way that going through... and you are moving into an area where as we've seen landlordism was at its [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] and peasant antagonism ought to have been greatest... and therefore you... on the face of it it seems surprising doesn't it that land reforms didn't take place immediately, or they weren't attempting land reform to take place immediately. I mean if, if, if you were... looking from outside and you were going to choose an area that you were going introduce land reform... you would choose south China wouldn't you?... Now is, is the fact that they don't do that, they still go for this rent and interest rate reduction... is it... because of the experience of the north, they found that the best way in the north was to go for rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then go on, and they were simply taking that experience into the south, but taking it into a different area where it was no longer necessary or appropriate? [speaker002:] Mm. It's not such a pragmatic thing then because [cough] one of things you said earlier on you said when you... do become very radical erm it's, the distinctions between become blurred [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] that erm one of the most important things is to keep up your production [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] and therefore if you're gonna er introduce this radical land reform straight away, I mean say there is no landlord but there's a peasant, or I mean unless the Party's ac completely active [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and they're gonna get hit. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] And basically what they need to do is create peasant economy to increase production as they learn from the land. [speaker001:] Ah right. [speaker002:] So if you go too radical you're gonna hit production, and you're gonna step back which [speaker001:] Right, and are you beginning to say that production is coming to be a more important criteria now? [speaker002:] Yeah I think so.... Well it certainly has but there's still kind of elements of I think especially when they find out that there's not much land to go round as they ash assumed. assume that if you give them a population that owned seventy eight percent of the land and find out fifty percent of the land, then you, you know, you can't just give land, everyone's not just gonna have land, you have to increase production to make everyone better off. Mm. [speaker001:] Right. So whereas in the north the, in a sense the, the main criteria was mobilization... as you're moving south in the new situation a new criteria is, is production. you need, you need, you need mobilization you need [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] support, but then even more you need production. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] There's also another problem with land reform in... I can't really see how they could implement land reform without reverting to similar sorts of they used in which is [clears throat] defining class distinctions and the chaos that that causes and the problems it causes erm... it is almost as if, if you go back to erm settling of accounts [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] okay you're erm... you're getting rid of your communist ideas you're... finding a smoother way to getting erm... to achieving a similar sorts of effects [cough] [speaker003:] hit the top end get a cross-section o of, but you still get the same, ultimately the same sorts of results erm by, by erm by adopting that policy whereas if you go... for trying to draw distinctions, you end up erm [speaker001:] Right so it's, yes, so, so, so the danger is, is chaos and the movement gets out of hand and Right. One way around that might be then to have enough cadres on the ground in order to, to do it properly. I mean even, in a sense you, you, you're worried about the excesses. [speaker002:] Yeah. But also the administration of and trying to rectify the [speaker001:] Right. Right. S so the, the more you've got, the less that is [speaker002:] [cough] Yeah the, the less but I still think there's a fundamental problem with drawing the distinction [speaker001:] Right. Right.... Fine. Erm but maybe this, this issue is, is, could be important in the sense that you, you've got... tt er... if you take China as a whole you've probably got well in excess of a million villages... erm you've probably got a denser population in the south than the north so you've got more than half a million villages in the south... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] okay, and if you're going to conduct land reform you've got to have an effective land reform team to go into each of those villages.... Erm so you, you, and you, you're looking of, of land reform teams of four, five members... so you're, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million cadres to go into the villages. And you've got two or three million cadres, trained cadres who know what they're doing, are experienced, who knows what the south is who know what the south is like.... So that there, there may be a, an important personnel problem th th that you realize that well okay... the option of going for land reform is, is there but you're saying... er it's likely trouble... my experience of the past is that, that... radical land reform is, is disruptive... it could affect production, it could get out of hand, it could alienate people... in order to control them we need a lot cadres on the ground and we haven't got them.... [speaker002:] Well even if you [sneeze] did have them would it, would it [sneeze] definitely be for the better? I mean they were, they were still so corruptible.... Or had that changed... were they, were they mo more educated now and less corruptible?... [speaker001:] Who? [speaker002:] The cadres. [speaker001:] The cadres.... [speaker002:] Because to some extent erm [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the rightist and leftist deviations were, were because of them. [speaker001:] Yes. Er so you would... you would need a very heavy rectification programme to sh to ensure, not just that you had enough cadres, but that the cadres were going in with, with the right attitudes. Erm... it, that would take time, I mean it's,th that would be very difficult to control. Yeah. You're right so it's, so it's not just in terms of the number of the cadre, it's the quality of the cadre, and, and you can't just erm... er I mean... you can't just pick, you can't... you've gotta educate them, create them etcetera, yeah. [speaker002:] In applying that how that they didn't implement land reform because it wasn't viable... but if... erm another way of looking at it is that how the Communist Party no longer saw land reform as the best way, means of achieving greater [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] egalitarianism and that how that [clears throat] increased production was seen as the... you know, priority, and so perhaps they would want to just... I mean it might seem appear that they were changing their policy to a more moderate land reform but this was... not an end in itself it was a means to an end in order to increase production which would benefit the population as a whole, so it's, they still had the same goal [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] which is to achieve greater equality but you're having different means to achieve that. [speaker001:] Right. It, it, it's a different means to an end, it's a much slower means to an end [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker001:] in the, in the sense that i if, if you look,i if you adopt a sort of retrospective view, I E if you look back from say... anything after nineteen forty nine and you say look, hold on erm... this was the final stage of the revolution.... The communists had never been in a better position than they were in in, in nineteen forty eight, the civil war was, was clearly going in their favour... erm they were to achieve power within eighteen months... and at precisely the point where they had everything going for them, they are adopting the most moderate policy. If there was any time when radical land reform would have succeeded, it was during nineteen forty eight to nineteen forty nine, and it's precisely that time [clears throat] looking into an area which would seem to be the most favourable for radical land reform, they have not taken that opportunity. [speaker002:] how much control did they have over?... [speaker001:] Well they're getting increasing control, increasing control but not and er so yo what you're saying is that, is that even if, if you go back to the reality of nineteen forty eight, actually they didn't realize they were going to get that control as quickly. they, they were seeing as being an, a longer drawn out struggle [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] not, which, one which would not be over in a year and a half. I mean we've, I mean at that point you've got... that was the point where you've got the massive United States aid coming in... erm... you, you've got erm... United States equipping China with all... enormous fire power, sending tanks in etcetera, I mean this was the beginning of, of the realization of the United States that, that the communists were a threat and they didn't like it and they, they were putting massive ai aid... erm and, and that there was all that United States war machine erm [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And this, this other thing as well about erm which is obviously and erm [clears throat] I think what they had in mind was that before you start doing anything radical, before you start having any real land reform at all, you have to ensure that you really have control of that area, he's had this [speaker001:] Yes, right. [speaker002:] experience of trying to, trying to put through land reform in erm areas which then led to just incredibly bad [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] cos all the sort of people communists they're all just full of hot air and just really get lost [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] the important lessons they learnt cos at first they thought land reform would enable them to achieve mass mobilization [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] but now they realize that however you need to have mass mobilization in order to have successful land reform [speaker001:] Right. Right. [speaker002:] and so land reform was no longer seen as a means to achieve their end that they... that and that... it wasn't the best policy to consolidate power, it was... you needed to have the mass support there first so that's why land reform was no longer seen as their goal so they didn't take it up at this point when one would expect them to pursue it. [speaker001:] It's, well it's still a goal but it's one step off? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. So, so there are two bits, there's, one is th that you need the... the, the, the evidence from the north is that you need mobilization in order to get land reform and the way to get mobilization is rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then sort of the, the struggle meetings and that provides the activism to go to land reforms and the other bit is, is the military one,th that you've learned that if you're going to go through with land reform and keep the support, you've got to make sure you've got your military security first. Erm and because in, even in nineteen forty eight, you couldn't guarantee that [speaker002:] [sniff] [speaker001:] you were better off to, to play it cautiously. If you put the two together erm you... i it becomes understandable... why they, they adopted these policies to the south, even though sort of from what happened the first time particularly in a retrospective way, the expectation would be... you would, this would be the are where you would go for land reform straight away. I mean in, in, in retrospect they probably could've achieved it... because they, they got the military er they, they, they did get the military security and... you probably could've afforded actually to, to mobilize the peasants through land reform. I if, if you could have got some cadres on the ground, you know, so, so the other bit of this is... is if you are going to go for land reform you've got to have, not just the military presence and military security, but enough trained... honest... highly motivated cadres. [speaker002:] Surely erm part of the problem [speaker001:] Ah right. [speaker002:] obviously [speaker001:] Right so we, we, we also need a new... land reform document, because we can't use the because egalitarianism we've, we've recognized from the experience of the north is wrong, that's not gonna work so we need something else. Right. Fine. So one of the things we're going to, to do is to, to see what that new land reform document might be. Before we do that can I just take up one other point...., sorry [speaker002:] two reasons policy, one was the er military secured area [cough] [speaker001:] Erm... what was your question? [speaker002:] Wouldn't, wouldn't you need the peasant mobilization first? [speaker001:] Yes.... [speaker002:] Before the land re before you could have successful land reform. [speaker001:] Sorry I lost my place. Erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm well th th th yeah but th th th there's, there's... the military security you need erm... you, you need... er tt... you've got to have the, the, the personnel to be able to do it [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and you've recognized that there are dangers if you, if you try and mobilize people too quickly i i it, it needs to be done slowly. But is there also the, the, the idea of,a and in a sense one thing you haven't actually got an appropriate land reform [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] so you have to actually figure a new one out before we can [speaker002:] [cough] ? Do you have something like a sort of guide book, you know how to conduct [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ca can we, that, that's after break for coffee. One other thing before that. [speaker002:] Is, is it possible to argue that the south is fundamentally different in terms of its?... [speaker001:] Tt... er if, if, if you go back to some of the things we were looking at last term er er this idea of commercialization... tt... er argue that the south was a very different type of country to the north, that it is commercialized... at least to a much greater extent [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] and i if, I mean i if you take... 's argument, if you take 's argument, they are all to do with, with provinces in the south... and, and the argument is that here we have, we are looking at a commercialized viable economy... and both and and for example are all arguing really that landlordism is not the problem... the problem is that you, you, you, you... you need to go further in terms of commercialization and that that, and that's the way to go.... I E you're not really looking at a feudal economy in the south any more... i it may be a much more heavily commercial capitalist economy... and therefore the kind of land reform programme that you might incorporate from a feudal north might not be entirely relevant.... So there might be something in the argument that, that... it's not just a, a question of what you've learned from the north, but there may be a recognition that... the economy in the south is different, or at least they might be arguing, those who are arguing that the economy in the south is different and that, that reform might not be necessary, it might not even be appropriate in the south.... It's a possibility.... [speaker002:] Did the Communist Party know that though? [clears throat] Cos surely they'd want to try to make peasants see that exploitation was... I mean cos there was still an agrarian problem in the south, just because it was more commercialized and economically viable there was still... thousands, tens of thousands of people who were starving and stuff so erm... did the Communist Party recognize this difference... in the economy, in the economic structure between the north and the south? I mean we can because we've studied it and had all the statistics and stuff. And would they wanted to have believed it. [speaker001:] I don't think they s th th they obviously didn't see it in, in quite the terms that [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] but I think there was an awareness that there was likely to be much more opposition to, to land reform in the south. Not s in a sense just by individual feudal landlords, but by landlords saying well I'm, I'm not really feudal anyway, that I've moved on from that, I am a commercial landlord rather than a feudal landlord. [speaker002:] This is the difference? [speaker001:] Mm.... [speaker002:] You don't have any of this sort of... you have to work [cough] dates that they had sort of like bonds in which they have to work to supply labour for certain dates on their land instead of feudal ties [speaker001:] Exactly. [speaker002:] yeah, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] as opposed to that was a part of being a tenant, you know, for the honour of you pay me rent but you also come and work on my land for how many days But as such just because you're hiring people that's still going to be, in Marxist terms, seen as exploitation. [speaker001:] Right. But it might be in [clears throat] but it, it is, it is [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] i i that was right,th th th there is a... i that they could be, if you like, capitalist landlords and feudal landlords.... Now capitalist landlords might be the development... certainly in terms of production... you, you might be disrupting a viable, commercial, capitalist orientated economy, and would you really want to do that? [speaker002:] Well no if you tried to then you, you'd be in some difficulty rules which, you know [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] commercial industrial society [clears throat] [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. And it might also be that... [speaker002:] [blowing nose] [speaker001:] the landlords in Saigon are if you like more commercial, more capitalist, it might be they were better organized than landlords in the north. I mean th th th the clan links in the south were much stronger than they were in the north, and therefore there might be even greater commercial landlord opposition to land reform than there had been in the north. [speaker002:] Was the south not more erm densely populated as well? [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker002:] So you'd end up putting... much smaller sort of bits of land [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] for each peasant which is going to harm production too. So there's gonna be less [speaker001:] There's, there's less [speaker002:] inequality or [speaker001:] there's a greater pressure of population... therefore... are you saying that, that... land reform might [clears throat] at least on the model tried in the north, might not yield any economic benefits [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] in terms that, that th th the erm land to released would be relatively small? Yes. Right. So the economic gains from... land reform in the south... might not be that great.... I mean you, the, the more you argue the south is a viable economic system, the less there is to gain from land reform. [speaker002:] erm [cough] and stuff like that I mean the amount of land each family will get... if you redistribute land, then the land for the family is not gonna be able to support the family. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] Yeah. Yes [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Yes.... [speaker002:] Erm I, I think I might have missed Adam's point and I was going back to [clears throat] whether the south was more efficient than the north because just tying it in with the seminar we had on managerial farms, weren't there more in the north than in the south? And so then that would just prove that how, managerial farms weren't that much more efficient?... [speaker001:] Er I think those are separate issues. You, you, you're right to say that on the whole... there, the managerial farms were in, in the north, although there w there was clearly some in the south [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] erm... I don't think this in itself said anything about level of efficiency of managerial farms. Erm I think it's, it's saying more about how... how we categorize this economy in the south, it clearly, it, it's not a managerial [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] erm... but that, the fact that there were managerial farms in the north might erm have er er important implications for the kind of land reform document we would want to draw to accommodate the situation in the north as well.... [speaker002:] Yeah my problem is just erm having said that we don't think land reform should go ahead in the south because it's a fairly efficient set up [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] then the, the main problem is rent because presumably it all, all starts being creamed off the top so, okay you don't have to redistribute land, but you can still get rid of the landlords and the people who are erm... taking away the surplus [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] from, from the, you could either do it by a method of taxing landlords so heavily [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] that it's... barely worth their while to erm to employ try and get rid of them by doing that er which er which means that there shouldn't be redistribution of land that much and therefore [speaker001:] Right. S yes so... rent reduction will, could make a significant difference in the south because you've essentially got a landlord tenant society [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you, it might open the way for peaceful land reform [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker001:] I mean if, if you er er the whole experience of was that you could get rent reduction and interest rate reduction relatively peacefully... so you wouldn't get disruption etcetera and you wouldn't get disruption and what, what you might come to recognize as a more, a more viable agricultural system. So peaceful land reform based around rent reduction, interest rate reduction, might be the ultimate strategy for... given your learning process in the north, given the nature of the economy in the south.... So if you, I mean, to go back to our initial proposition, whilst on the face of it it seems curious that... in the area in south China where one would expect land reform to be easiest to achieve... the communists adopt a much more moderate, slower, cautious policy... but for a whole variety of reasons we, we're, we're tending towards the view that that would be the most appropriate anyway.... [speaker002:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And er so, so, so we are er ou out of this it's er we're still, we're still committed to land reform are we?... We st we still want to achieve land reform because that ultimately is, is going to be the only way of ensuring that we end feudalism... and the proper benefits go to the poor.... So we, we, we've got in a sense this holding exercise of rent reduction, interest rate reduction but we are going to need a new land reform document to take us through, I mean certainly once we get to nineteen forty nine and we are in power,th th we, we are gonna want land reform aren't we? [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker001:] Sure, do, we do need land reform? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] isn't it? [speaker001:] Right. Okay so we are,w w we're now in a position of, certainly by nineteen forty nine we're, we're on the verge of power, we want... l we, land reform is not taking place any more, there are still some areas in the north it hasn't taken place... out in the far north west it hasn't taken place, so we, we, we are going to need a new land reform document based on all the experience we've got... which will carry us through and, and it's really... that land reform document, document that we are going to implement for the whole of China, and it's going to be that document which really is going to abolish feudalism and create... some sort of equality.... Well let's have some coffee and then come back and... [speaker002:] ... [break in recording] [speaker001:] We've gotta devise a new land reform law.... What's our priority?... What, what, what really is the land reform to achieve now? [speaker002:] of feudalism You've gotta [speaker001:] Right.... Yeah.... [speaker002:] Protect commerce and industry. [speaker001:] protect commerce and industry. [speaker002:] Yeah, I guess it's all... [speaker001:] Just looked after... go on. [speaker002:] Erm... well erm it's that [speaker001:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] we are now in power but I don't think that presumably proved that we can run an economy efficiently [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and [cough] once we've got that then we have the resources from that I think to introduce other programmes that take [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] quite a long time to implement, for example [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] erm... [speaker001:] Wh when you're saying to run the economy, do you mean the rural economy or the economy, you know, China as a whole? Well let's say we've moved on to and we're into nineteen forty nine say [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and we've in nineteen forty nine [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and... w w w we are either half controlled or we're, we can now see that you know the civil war is, is going so quickly our way that we are going to have control within a year or so we are likely to have control over the economy as a whole. D does that begin to make a difference?... [speaker002:] Yes because now [speaker001:] Right. Yes. [speaker002:] So we then have to coordinate our policies [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm... this is going to be really [LAUGHTER] hard work []. It's got, I mean, surely the, the middle peasants or even the rich peasants the group of people that are gonna be most productive in the economy erm so you know your reform has to be fairly moderate in that sense that they have to be able to... promote [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] economic growth and, and [speaker001:] Right. So in a very broad sense agriculture is going to have to con contribute to China's, China as a whole's economic development [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I E to, to, and will contribute to China's industrialization because once we are in control industrialization will be necessary. So agriculture will have to play a role in that and therefore we want to increase agricultural output... and... in order to do that you want to protect the middle and rich peasants who are the most efficient producers, or I E managerial farms... if, if they are more efficient, you want to, if... you want... it would not make sense to take land away from rich peasants in order to give to poor peasants when rich peasants might be more efficient producers.... [speaker002:] Well it depends how quickly the poor peasants can achieve more efficiency... how quickly they can do that.... [speaker001:] Right. [clears throat] Yes, so, so, so you're taking decisions in terms of well... which are the most efficient [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] within the countryside and how can we create those m those.... That er that, that, I mean that efficiency thing is becoming an important consideration in a way which... we, we, we've not mentioned before. [speaker002:] Mm.... Well I mean surely it's, that's... the point now is to try to make a fair erm law and one that is ideologically erm designed seeing we've got to power, or we've got certainty of obtaining power, therefore land ownership has got to be land ownership which has been capitalism Marxist [speaker001:] So th th is becoming more complex. I i in the past our aim with land reform has been very largely erm... we want to end feudalism and we want to maximize mobilization... we, we're now saying okay we, we still want to those, but we, we've also got to ensure that somehow we have a land law which ensures that agriculture will play a role in China's industrialization and so we will get maximum efficiency from the agricultural sector... as well as mobilization, as well as ending feudalism.... Er er we could [clears throat] say that we've got a much bigger range of aims and does that mean that we are more likely to have [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] it's going to be very difficult isn't it, for us to be able to achieve all of those aims... at the same time. [speaker002:] Well er I mean well things like communal ownership advocate them to be reforms You can move beyond the efficiencies of erm of the erm... managerial systems or the existing systems by erm creating, you could do coll collectives and then using state support to erm bring in erm more capital You reckon state collectives do you? Well well you, you can advocate erm mutual aid and all these sorts of things which erm... which are erm a step towards, I mean I'm not saying they're directly You can encourage it without how the [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] agricultural system works. [speaker001:] So you might actually want to put something of that in to your land reform [speaker002:] Yeah and, and you can have erm through loans etcetera you can start increasing [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] capital which [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] you could get into a situation which is beyond managerial farms anyway because you've got more capital Are they gonna have the resources to do that though? From the government. Ha? It's from the gov the government But where does the government get the money from? The same place it got the the erm tt the money for [cough] twenty er twenty or something in, in loans. Well [LAUGHTER] I dunno wouldn't you, and that's what's Well yeah [speaker001:] Right questions er on that, yeah, okay. Erm going back to your point, we, we are operating within the context of a new democracy, right, which is, is, is broadly a kind of democratic... approach erm I E that it's, it's an indication of a sort of the bourgeois revolution but within that you're saying it's not just a democratic revolution, it's a new democratic revolution and within that there will be elements of socialism being created. So we, we are not just creating capitalism per se we are building in that direction er... but there will be elements of socialism there which we can then build on and take us forward. So our, our land reform is going to have to reflect that so you would expect to see elements, perhaps, of socialisms being created.... Okay. So, so th th that would be some of the thinking which would lie behind sitting down and, and... and drawing up a, a reform document... a land reform document, in the very late nineteen forties. [speaker002:] [sniff] Sh I mean to, to my mind, shouldn't the land ownership possibly... one of the key issues cos that is... if you have land ownership and then you're just paving the way for the new capitalist society and to, you know, according to Marxist theory which I think is a pretty dodgy one, they have to go from capitalism to achieve socialism [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] socialists, which is just a load of rubbish if you ask [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay. But, but, but, but our experience of the past [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] did not get the peasants to support us unless we give them that. [speaker002:] [blowing nose] Yeah. That's right, so that's what I'm saying if, if [speaker001:] want to do that [speaker002:] abolish land ownership then it would suggest they're going for a ideologically based [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] land reform, if they don't it's suggesting it's just another means of obtaining power by fragmenting [speaker001:] Erm or, or a pragmatic in terms of erm you want to minimize disruption, you actually want to get production going and the way to get production going is to give the peasants... the land themselves. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's right. Which isn't really erm compatible with social with communism. I don't see how you can argue it is, I don't see how anyone can. [speaker001:] Right. Erm but it [speaker002:] Shh It would suggest it's just not a transitory stage. [speaker001:] But, but but ending feudalism is the first important stance. [speaker002:] Well that's what they argue, yes. But I mean feudalism [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] it's hardly communism is it? [speaker001:] Erm no, but you're, at least you're getting out of feudalism. [speaker002:] Well yeah but capitalism But you can't go straight for socialism or communism. Well that's what they said but why not? Because I mean that's just rubbish, they said you have to go to [cough] capitalism and then, then naturally evolve into socialism... communism. [speaker001:] Well, but we, no we're not saying that, what we're saying is that we... so all we're trying,w w w that they were saying we can't go from... cap er from feudalism to socialism... but we don't want to go just from feudalism to capitalism, we want to go into er if you like a capitalism with socialist characteristics. We, we want there to be elements of socialism built into the capitalism we're creating which will allow us to go straight into, to socialism in the future. [speaker002:] Mm And supposed to see the superiority of socialism in this capitalist what socialism anyway? Well there was a, there was a debate or something and that's when the committee [clears throat] [speaker001:] Erm... I'm not sh... w w well would you really have, have, have worried about that at the time? getting out of feudalism... then why exactly how you're gonna go from there.... I mean as long you are going in a way which is setting up... getting through to socialism as soon as possible, I'm not sure... there would be any point in thinking... about those issues until you've got a bit further. I mean I'm, I... I dunno.... [speaker002:] I was just, I mean... did they really believe that... it would, it would just lead straight on to socialism?... [speaker001:] I, I, I think they probably believed that, that, that the best way to get into socialism was to begin to create socialist elements from the start, that would facilitate the move... erm... and once you'd got full control, I mean this is where, where there might be kind of bits you can say that once, once... we, we need to make these assurances to get us out of feudalism. Once we, once we are out of feudalism and once we have political control we can dictate wherever we want to go... and once we've got full control... we will go into socialism.... But as of, as of nineteen forty eight forty nine, if you'd said... you'd gone into a village, right you guys we're going into socialism, we are gonna create... collective farming... the peasants would have said no.... [speaker002:] So there position in nineteen forty nine wasn't re in effect all that secure cos [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] of the personnel that [speaker001:] Right. I mean th th th th they were on the way to military security, but were they going, they, they, they recognized they had to carry the population with them. I think there, there was a genuine democratic element to this that, that it,i i i it wasn't going to be forcible socialism, it was going to be socialism which would come naturally because that would be what the population wanted. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And that, that would come gradually. [speaker002:] Well you, you could do the sort of token gesture of giving them the land like they did in the past, at least that's showing what some sort of communism [speaker001:] In order to get the support, yes, and to or in order to end feudalism, which was, was the, the priority. After that it's anybody's guess.... Okay. Let's, let's have a look at the, the document [paper rustling]... So have you all got one you can... you can see? So, article one... [reading] feudal exploitation by the landlord class shall be abolished and the system of peasant land ownership shall be introduced in order to set free the rural productive forces, develop agricultural production and thus pave the way for new China's industrialization []. So that the, the, the two main aims are, are stressed there, you are gonna end feudal exploitation... and you are going to create a new system which will set free the force of rural production in order to pave the way for new China's industrialization. So for, for the first time... the revolution is given an economic goal in that it is to set up industrialization... and in a sense... the ending of feudalism and the creation of industrialization emerge as, as the two forces whereas up until now it has been feudalism perhaps egalitarianism. So it's... we, we've already, that, that already has changed significantly.... Er you've then got a series on... confiscation... confiscation and retribution of land, so article two, land, draught animals, farm implements and surplus grain the landlords surplus houses... shall be confiscated. other, other property shall not be confiscated so you're gonna take all the land, animals, implements from the landlords, you're gonna take their surplus grain, their surplus houses into the countryside but, but nothing else you, you're gonna take from landlords.... Er you're gonna take in rural land belonging to, to shrines, temples, monasteries, churches, schools, organizations etcetera etcetera etcetera... industry and commerce shall be protected from infringement, industrial and commercial enterprises operated by landlords... and the land and properties used by landlords to greater industrial shall not be confiscated... erm you, you're worried that if you confiscate them they're simply broken up between people and those productory forces are disbanded. So... you, you, you're taking... landlords farm assets, but you're not taking their industrial, commercial or urban assets at all.... And then er revolutionary armament d dependents, farmers, workers, staff professional workers, peddlers and others who rent out small pro portions of land because they're engaged in other occupations, or because they lack the labour power, shall not be classified as landlords. If the average per capita of land held in such does not exceed two hundred percent of the average per capita land held in the locality it shall remain untouched.... So there's a group within the village that you are going to allow to own twice... the average [speaker002:] [cough]... [speaker001:] So you're enshrining inequality within it.... [speaker002:] [cough] Is there a... a sort of suggestion of reward here? You know there's some tenants [speaker001:] Well, er sure but what about... commercial workers and peddlers... and others who ... [speaker002:] But there's already inequality by not stripping the landlords of anything but [speaker001:] Yeah.... Tt... and then we come to rich peasants, land owned by rich peasants and cultivi cultivated by themselves or hired labour and their other properties shall be protected from infringement.... So anything that the landlo er the rich peasant owns and works himself or cultivates by hired labour... you're going to allow to keep. And, over and above that, small portions of land rented out by rich peasants shall remain un untouched.... In certain special areas the land rented out by rich peasants may be requisitioned in part or in whole with the approval of the people's government at level or above. You special permission to encroach on all of the [clears throat] rich peasant's land he rents out.... [speaker002:] Why do they use the word requisition instead of confiscate?... [speaker001:] Does requisitioning have the same connotations as confiscation? [speaker002:] So they are... they're being harsher on landlords but on the rich peasants they're just taking back the land instead of requisition, if you're in the position say... then it's like it's for a common cause Mm. [cough] if you take away some of the land confiscate's a punishment. Yeah. At the end of the day the effect is the same. [speaker001:] So i it's another, well it may, the effect may be the same but it's another way of drawing distinctions between landlords and rich peasants and you are treating landlords differently from rich peasants.... And then the last is if the portions of land rented out by rich peasants of a semi-landlord type exceed in size the land held by themselves and by their hired labour the land rented out shall be requisitioned. But that would seem to imply that only if a rich peasant rents out more land than he owns and works... either by himself or hired labour, he will be able to keep that... all. So a rich peasant will be able to keep all of the land he was working himself, all the land he was working by hired labour and land that he hired, er that he rented out as long as the amount he, he rented out did not exceed all of the land that he worked himself or... used hired labour.... Pretty generous position for rich peasants isn't it?... [speaker002:] That's not clear exactly what that last bit says cos it's not saying like you all of the land they rent out, but I guess it just means the excess above which [speaker001:] Right. I think if I was a rich peasant I would be using that to argue that you could take my rented land, it was [speaker002:] Well so would I. A leftist nut-case might [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker001:] Right, yeah but... fine. But I mean th there is, if, I mean, that is generous to rich peasants.... [speaker002:] It also sort of encourages them to... farm as much land as they can to presumably rent more out. [speaker001:] Yeah. Right.... Land and other properties of middle peasants, including well to do middle peasants, shall be protected from infringement. So we, we, we're still working to middle peasants being able to earn twenty five or thirty percent of their income from exploitation, either hired labour or renting out land and we won't touch it at all.... So the, the... the only land that we are taking in... is landlord land... and the land that rich peasants rent out over and above, if er in size larger than the land they are going to continue to work, either themselves or with hired labour.... Er we're not, we're not touching middle peasants at all, they're sacrosanct.... [speaker002:] So they're still, they were still keeping to their aims of achieving greater equality, it was just not absolute equality... egalitarianism. [speaker001:] That is... you, you, you're miles away from absolute egalitarianism.... [speaker002:] But [speaker001:] to rich peasant economy.... [speaker002:] This rich peasant economy ought to benefit the population as a whole because it's increasing production and erm if it becomes more efficient then... the rents won't have to so high... the poor peo poor people benefit. Yeah but the only thing you're really doing is, is taking away this nominal erm exploitive relationship, you're still gonna be exploiting the of existing Mm. and you might, you might but there's still gonna be erm be certain divisions in the society perpetuating. [speaker001:] I actually think it's, it's, okay it's a more equal society, but it is by no means an equal society you're creating.... So I mean... well let's go on then. The distribution of land, all land under of production confiscate with the exception of those to be nationalized to be taken over by the Peasant Association, the unified [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] distribution to poverty stricken peasants who their land. Production landlords should be given an equal share... so that they can make their living by their own labour and thus reform themselves through labour.... Er... land should be distributed by taking village as a single unit, that should be distributed in a unified manner according to the population therein based on the principle of allotting the land to its present tiller and making necessary readjustments in land held by taking into consideration the amount, the quality and location of land. So i it, it's the old nous... quantity and quality coming in there. Er but basically... you're going to give land back to the people who are tilling it because that's what they, they have an attachment to.... Er... and then going on to article twelve... under the principle [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] of allotting land to the present tiller, land owned by the tiller should not be drawn upon for redistribution. When rented land is drawn upon for distribution proper consideration sh should be given to the present tiller. Land he acquires through distribution plus his home land shall be slightly and suitably more than the land held in arbitrary distribution of the peasants who had little or no land. should be the present tiller should re retain the approximate average per capita land, land holding in the in the locality.... So... if you already own land... you would end up with a larger unit than if you owned no land before.... So... we are looking at creating a society with our... rich peasants... who are going to own significantly more than whatever the average is going to be, and significantly more than middle peasants. We've then got well to do middle peasants, we've got middle peasants... who would in turn [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] own more than a part-owner, part-tenant before the revolution, who after the revolution would own more than... a full tenant before the revolution.... [speaker002:] Maintaining differentials... Well basically, apart from landlords and... the [cough] peasants, there's er something for everybody. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] But landlords, oh no but they [speaker001:] Lan lan er and landlords get some land. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. So you are about as far away from absolute egalitarianism as you can get, you are actually enshrining [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] You are creating a... system within the countryside... which is based on inequality.... And then there's a, a series of er... oh and they add er er during the people's governments or at or above the may in accordance with the local land agency set apart certain land bound to be nationalized and used for the establishment of experimental farms... or one or more county's or model state farms, so there's provision for the creation of so a form of socialism over the countryside but it's, it comes a long way down the list.... [speaker002:] Quite token isn't it? [speaker001:] And very token, mm. [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] So our final document when, and this is, this is issued in June nineteen fifty, we are in power, we are a communist government... and our land reform... is one which enshrines inequalities, it protects middle peasants... it in effect minimizes what it can give to the poor.... There is, there is no egalitarianism whatsoever.... There is very little provision, there is, there is token provision for the creation of socialism.... And, and this is what revolution has produced.... At precisely the point where we could have been at our most radical we are at our least radical, this is the least radical document that we've come across. [speaker002:] [cough]... [speaker001:] Are you happy with this? [speaker002:] Not particularly but I understand that er it is, you now have the whole of China which small areas... erm relatively small areas, you've now got the whole thing, I mean if you start initiating very radical reforms, as you say you don't have the personnel or the resources to erm to prevent a, you know, a big change disruption. [cough] [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] Presumably you've gotta start somewhere haven't you? You know... you've gotta start somewhere, you can't just, you've gotta start somewhere Yeah but the establish the principles [speaker001:] This is where you want to start then? [speaker002:] What? No that's what I'm saying I'm saying that you know... you, you should er perhaps try to establish some... underlying principles to your policy. But isn't there, isn't there a big difference between... sort of recognizing the faults of past land reforms and advocating something like this? Why? I mean it's not merely recognizing that past land reforms didn't work, it's a totally different policy. [speaker001:] Th th th this in effect is creating capitalism in the countryside. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You've got private owned, you've got inequalities.... So the creates capitalism. [speaker002:] That's only because you're looking at it in a very short- term perspective, they, the way they saw the communist revolution was by a very long drawn out process... and so it wasn't that the revolution had just created this was, this was an important step in order to lead to their ultimate goal. And it just goes to show that the Communist Party were very forward looking but... I, I would, I would be very surprised if the communists understood how deterministic idea of erm some sort of progression, I think [clears throat]... you can't really say in about ten years' time we're gonna be here So it was pragmatic but it could also fit into their ideology in that how, that if they'd gone straight for socialism [speaker001:] Now come on, this, this is disgraceful. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] There's no this is a disgraceful [speaker002:] No but if they'd gone straight for [speaker001:] document for a communist party to base land reform on. [speaker002:] There's no ideology at all. [speaker001:] Absolutely, absolutely none. [speaker002:] I think it's only pragmatic in that... it's maintaining production levels.... Or helping production but So is this what, they certainly? [speaker001:] Yeah, this is it. This is [speaker002:] That's [speaker001:] No, no [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No but I mean the basis of it was presumably landlord out and China was based around this [speaker001:] Yeah. Well it was for the next... two years. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] They didn't [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No, no. [speaker002:] Oh right. [speaker001:] I mean this, these, these, these [speaker002:] Well that's alright then. [speaker001:] No, I mean we would, no [speaker002:] So I mean this is just another basic erm [speaker001:] Yeah. Well in fact it, it it has in fact gone full circle because through the nineteen fifties you went through to co-ops to collectives to communes which lasted through to nineteen seventy eight, the communes were then disbanded and you're back, now, after reform which took very much system. But, you know, if, if, if I'd have put, when we, when we started to talk at the beginning of this term we had at the beginning a general discussion about what are we gonna put in land reform, if I'd have come along to s to you and I'd said well I think we should do this... [speaker002:] We'd of laughed. [speaker001:] Right.... And I, I, I, I, I, I would not have endeavoured to persuade you that this was going to be... the land reform document that was, that... this is it. [speaker002:] It doesn't surprise me that they did it. But this isn't this is it? I mean you said two years later change. [speaker001:] Ah well sure but then the whole lot goes, but, but, but, but, but this was, this was the document, I mean the way this was put forward, this is going to last us through into the foreseeable future. Erm... you know,th th th this er er it was a medium term horizon on this at the time.... [speaker002:] Are you saying that they didn't mean what they said then? And that... I mean cos Mao said that how that you needed to have a moderate policy, that was the correct one [speaker001:] Absolutely. [speaker002:] in order to ha to achieve one's goals, are you saying that how look well you've just got to assume that they were wrong... that they didn't mean what they said?... I mean it's perfectly [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] legitimate to think that how that they did think that this was a short-term goal in order to achieve their long-term... objectives. [speaker001:] One, one might argue that... erm one might argue that there is a cynical implication thereupon, one might argue that... but, but in i i in exactly the same way at the moment you might argue that all the assurances they've given on Hong Kong are, are not worth the paper they're written on and, and, and as soon as the, soon as you get through to nineteen ninety seven they'll walk in.... Er... are, are you saying no that they, they are not... er [speaker002:] But you see they wouldn't have been able to realize their goals in nineteen forty nine. I mean, okay [speaker001:] Why not? [speaker002:] supposing if they had [speaker001:] fifty they could, they could have gone... they could have gone [speaker002:] But could they? Were th were the peasants ready for it? Is that what the peasants wanted at that time? [speaker001:] Ah. Well okay bu but in that sense are you saying that the learning experience was such that the peasant was so conservative and reactionary and so was all you could do? [speaker002:] Yeah which peasants are you talking about? Mm. Are you talking, saying the peasant, I mean it doesn't mean anything does it, the peasant? Mm. all peasants. I mean it may just depend upon how secure the [speaker001:] How, how would you have felt as a poor peasant [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I mean it really does depend upon how secure they were and how much, how much support,ge genuine support they had of the, the masses as a whole, because if they didn't then there's no way, and people weren't calling for them to establish socialism at that time were they?... Would they have known what socialism was? Exactly. And so how can the Communist Party But I mean just say right, we're gonna do this, this Just because they don't know what it... socialism theoretical concept or something, they might have known that they wanted Yes but it's the basic underlying concept capitalism and becomes rich as the we western world then th they'll be all for that No, I just find that [LAUGHTER] really difficult [] because they didn't have the means at that time to achieve it. I mean we've already established the fact they didn't have, they didn't have the personnel to . Yes they did. They were in power. They were in power but I mean who's to say that the pe there's not gonna be a civil war and they'll be thrown out of power. So why did they think that they had the er [clears throat] means to do it in nineteen forty seven? You know when they said, when they went for a very radical policy Well perhaps because they were more idealist and that now they're becoming more realist but they're still... erm I mean they're learning from their past mistakes and they've seen that right so we have to have a moderate policy which is gonna take us a little bit further towards socialism. They're not totally contradicting their ideals. [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah It confirms our suspicions [LAUGHTER] at the last gasp we were right. [LAUGHTER]... It's all this absolute power corrupts actually isn't it? Mm.... Erm the, the people who did Mao? Or? [speaker001:] Well I mean [clears throat] there, there, there's no question about nineteen forty nine absolutely non no documents could have come out unless they had Mao's approval. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] Did he shoot the other people involved by any chance? [speaker001:] that's behind this [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] erm I E it's the same person who comes up with... [speaker002:] I mean yeah as you say he's very high personable person, there must be some reason behind it... er and a lot of the theoretical reasons that he says of of ideological progression, maybe he thought that, that, that erm the only, ultimately the only way to capitalis er to communism was through capitalism and he needs to establish a period of capitalism first. [speaker001:] Sure yes. [speaker002:] And that's what sort of Marx said. So that [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] yeah but it doesn't mean that they're selling out completely does it because it Mm. it means that it's just, it's a realization of, of the progression of communism... is to establish a capitalist phase. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] communism rather a, a weak theory doesn't it? It's like saying Well Mao would do anything the Communist Party, let's make it capitalist society. [LAUGHTER] No because if you look at Marxist writing it's,i it's, you go through certain stages and you can't achieve That's right. And that's what's happening to us now [clears throat] That's just, that's just but why does it have to happen? It doesn't. If they really wanted they could've just gone straight for it. If they'd really wanted to. They wanted to make it work though and they couldn't have made it work unless... they had had the... I mean the right conditions to do so. [speaker001:] You could have you could have made it work. [speaker002:] [cough] You could've made it work if the peasants if the peasants were revolutionary, if the peasants had... changed their value system and weren't... and that... there were very few who were still working within the economy. So er [speaker001:] Are are you saying this is all that was possible because the peasant really was a capitalist at heart? [speaker002:] Well it was very likely that this policy was gonna succeed... [speaker001:] In what? [speaker002:] and they was gonna take a bigger risk, in keeping [LAUGHTER] them in power... so that they can achieve [] their longer term ends. [speaker001:] But sh sh sure they can succ succ they can succeed in creating capitalism, it, it... it, it might succeed in... paving the way for new China's industrialization... but we've gone a long way from any... any ideological position, we've gone a long way from... well what is in the best material benefiting class of the poor peasant now... the poor peasant is not gonna get very much out of this. [speaker002:] It seems as if a disillusionment, the communists are trying you know, trying policies [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and they're still not bloody work what can we do? Okay well... we're in a really bad situation, I mean we can achieve something at least and perhaps oh perhaps communism doesn't work after all, they just seem to be doubting their own beliefs and what they've read. And that's the only way I can see a way through this, thinking okay they've got this ideology, they've tried it twice and it still hasn't worked.... Let's go back to the drawing board and try something else.... Cos this, this is definitely not communism in any sense. [speaker001:] Right. I mean... does, does this document surprise you? I mean is [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] is that what you thought the nineteen forty nine revolution was all about?... [speaker002:] I'm not surprised it's come back erm... to, to a sort of right... is this an expression of mass mind do you think? [speaker001:] [sigh] [speaker002:] What do you think? Cos if it is communist behaviour There is, no there's no mass argument because you've got Why not? this different situation [cough] that's not mass minded. Well it's quite, I'm sure that I'm sure, I'm sure that a lot of, I'm sure the rich peasant Well there's about eight people cos really they're the only f you know they'll be going yeah that's my mass line alright [LAUGHTER] Well of course it is, yeah [] but that's not thing is it? Well, it is for them you see, there, there's no such thing as an absolute mass line, the mass line in particular two types of people. No that's not a mass mind then is it? Exactly. well there's no such thing as a mass line then is there? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] but anyway we, we, we'd better stop there. But I think it's important we've, we've now got what... what the policy was.... On the face of it it looks very much as though this is erm... very little social justice... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] what, what I hope we'll do next week is to, is to take that idea up and to see maybe why this policy came through... erm and we'll look at the, like the arithmetic of that as to, as to how much money there was, how much land there was in fact. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] How you could actually achieve a distribution. So I think for next week... I'd like to be looking in some detail, there are two sources on this one is, is and the other is,tho those two are crucial in terms of understanding or, and... and that those are crucial in terms of understanding erm why this policy document. Er who's doing next week? [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] If, if you're stuck for them come and see me cos I've got them

[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [clears throat] Go on John, you gonna start? [speaker002:] Er in general terms er there was no big mannerisms or faults as far as I can see, there's very good eye contact er throughout er you, you kept the person's attention. Er we then take this as the actual structure er social qualities we're okay then you jump straight into the statement of the purpose... er er because you're. The thing I noticed was that they're all close questions, you like the area, now Martin was very fair to you because you, he was very me most... you could've got very much did you move because of your, yes. Again you cooperated, you gave er a good idea so erm... you went on there er... Martin to a certain extent was then taking control simply because he was verbose nature. Er then he made the... I'd better cut back to the business card because you jumped into the statement of purpose erm... you assum er there was an assumed... er was okay erm I put superb and I can't remember what that actually was there. [speaker001:] That was the the [speaker002:] Oh that's erm... your objection er was nobody had seen me and you didn't really answer the question [microphone moved] clients by coming in to their homes... you know, Martin made the comment er that in actual fact nobody had seen them seen them in six or seven years so I thought that was a possibility for a just er oh n maybe not as deep a but nevertheless... erm there was a good, good pause er... er how did you er come to be with Friends Provident er you, it was good that you asked er er if the wife would be attending the second meeting, that was an important thing. You completely the wife actually what... erm... another good point was that you got in are, are there dependants... there were certain close questions again, the fact that the wife smoked a pipe gave you the opportunity to turn round and say well that's, that's good, that's a benefit because she could be classed as a non-smoker... there's just wee er opportunities there and that's as much as I had if anyone else wants to add to... these comments. [speaker003:] I agree with a lot of, of what John's saying. I actually disagree wife's erm employment service cos I feel asking things like that he actually, he actually seemed to miss it and go back to s saying I know what you're actually thinking. The one, the thing that I actually picked up on is tt erm in the greeting part of it you, you started very well and then Martin seemed to take control and you almost felt as if Martin was interviewing you at one point and erm... you tried to get the control back and that's when you went straight into the statement of purpose, because Martin was taking control. Erm... I thought that erm... I, I mean I was getting some things that John hasn't, hasn't mentioned, erm when you mentioned the wife being there erm when you, when you were introducing the C C Q you then assumed that you would be coming back with recommendations [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] erm and I think maybe that you, you jumped in shouldn't have done that er because obviously M Martin got quite defensive at that point... you know because you were only going there to do this financial planning service and er selling them anything, you were just offering this financial planning service and then you jumped in with these, when I come back with my recommendations [LAUGHTER] erm... tt I also thought that erm... you know it was a little bit dodgy actually to say you, well you know erm tt we have found that our records are incorrect [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] and I thought [] well then that maybe and erm you went ve you went very o when you were talking about the dependants erm... you, you... you didn't seem to get into er erm how many children have you got and is there any other dependants, it, you, it seemed to take you a long time to actually get there. And the other thing [speaker001:] I was writing the information down. [speaker003:] Yeah and [LAUGHTER] and the other thing which I, actually I've been laughing at here is because you were laughing at yourself when you [LAUGHTER] were asking the questions []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I was thinking about all the [speaker003:] So, so erm... wh which, you know, made me smile and I'm sure it did everybody else but whenever you were asking a question to Martin you, you started laughing as you were [LAUGHTER] telling it [] erm and that's... I don't think that I would actually have to... [speaker001:] Apart from all of that [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] erm... it's, it's, like, like the, the clo closed questions, there was no real... no real commitment er with, with the questions you were asking, you, you seemed to be afraid to ask them.... You know, erm, you know what sort of gross salary and you know and there was, you were holding back in a way erm tt... and why you didn't wanna discuss your hobbies... you know where you were losing it Mm. well he didn't wanna di discuss his hobbies you didn't wanna reveal any of yours. Erm what sort of pastimes do you actually get up to, this is what we wanna know now.... Erm... and the willingness to proceed... erm... it seemed, it missed something... no I, I didn't think it, you, you sort of said you know, can we go for it... there was no real... that's what I picked up on. [Martin:] Okay. Okay Sally. [speaker002:] Could I just make one final [Martin:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I know where I was when I wrote assume superb, he assumed the Friends Provident policies were good [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] now someone could turn, take e exception to that [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] cos these blooming policies are not doing as well as I expected [speaker001:] Well this is an [speaker002:] and then and then you're splitting yourself, you're building a barrier up for yourself. That was, that was the one I think assume superb was actually policies. [Martin:] Yeah. Okay fine. Er right then tt here we go. Erm as well as all that erm I'll just try and add in the extra bits that... Erm... what was... oh sorry how did I come to Friends Provident then? How did I come to Friends Provident? [speaker002:] Through his company. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] presentation. [Martin:] Mhm. Er and who did that presentation? [speaker001:] presentation [Martin:] ? He said I should like to redeem this I F A [speaker001:] Well [Martin:] and you've got to stop, you've gotta back off [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] okay, so that wasn't er explored [speaker001:] Mhm. [Martin:] I thought the was very good and I liked the way you, you introduced that, you introduced it, came to agreement by acknowledgement I thought that went really quite well.... Erm the... statement of fine. Erm... maintain, to maintain contact is not as good as what it should've been but that was fair enough. You did actually sort of make when I said well I've not seen anybody you did say... say that but I'll come to that later on, okay, so it wasn't a but you acknowledged and you answered it. Okay I that would have been okay in that particular case but you did come back to it as benefit, you say we haven't seen you for such a long time... that was a not just look at your policies but to put a, a face to the name so I can become your point of reference [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] right now or some time in the future. erm the buyer's guide and the business card... erm... yes it is a legal requirement but I mean, you know, don't hammer the fact, this is a legal, I've gotta give it to you, okay so it came across in that particular vein. And again, as Jimmy said, don't knock the system, you know there are mistakes made but we don't hang it up and say look know we've made lots of mistakes, you're, you're undermining your own erm performance. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] Mm. The reason I said smoking a pipe, okay, you assumed that she smoked cigarettes.... She could've smoked ci er cigarillos, she could've smoked a pipe, yeah,... erm... tt with regards to working, you did ask did she work but is sh she is a tax payer, she wasn't... because it's pin money. Again the temptation to become assumptive [speaker001:] Although that information would've come out with her salary wouldn't it? [Martin:] Yeah but you did say on that base oh well you pay tax but obviously you must do as well then [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] but she didn't, she was a non tax payer in that particular scenario. They would have come [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] out later on but again try not to be too assumptive. Tt... and what else did I put, erm... yeah when you are writing things down try and maintain some sort of eye contact, the only time, the eye contact was fine but there were [speaker001:] Yes. [Martin:] occasions when, you know, you actually turned your shoulder to me, your head went down and obviously [speaker001:] Yeah I was aware of that. [Martin:] you're trying about the erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] point, okay that was a bit of wide ball but I might have taken offence at that. [speaker001:] Yes, yeah you could've done [Martin:] I mean why why? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] You know you had a but be, be aware of that. [speaker001:] Yes. [Martin:] Good to see you checked to see if the wife would be there, okay pretty pointless going through the whole process if, if she has all the facts [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] erm especially budget and so that was good. Erm you look fairly fit... thank you very much, you know, very sweet of you dear, erm... tt and I think to, to carry on with the regards to well how much do you earn you went all around the houses, don't apologize and say well I have to ask you because, you know,, you know you need to know [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] cos if you don't know how much money that he's earning what can you do?... Tell me, how much do you earn... end of story. You did go round the houses on that that wasn't to get the point [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] yeah, so you know, get stuck in there. Er and I think that's all I have to say. All in all very good,... lots of good aspects there but again be aware of erm... you... learn the C C Q [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] cos you were taking yeses when it should be nos [speaker001:] Yeah I know. [Martin:] you were putting in information that shouldn't be there, okay you've gotta grip to the C C Q before we [speaker001:] I think the other thing also, I found it a disadvantage actually having it on the table, I think if I'd just left it on the like that [Martin:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and then done it [Martin:] yeah, you could've [speaker001:] you know, I just put it on the table and left it there and as I say it's certainly better to because when you're looking like then it's easier do that. [Martin:] Okay, you could yeah. Yeah. Any other comments? I mean what were your thoughts Sally? [speaker001:] Erm... Yeah it went er it went [LAUGHTER] it went a bit wrong at the beginning because as I say you did it with business card and er buyer's guide, that came in a after the erm statement of purpose really. Mm. Erm but I felt... because we were sitting there... the appropriate sociability went on longer. I think if you're actually th when you, when you go into somebody's house and you're talking... once, once you actually sit down you more or less then accept that you're going into a business situation. [Martin:] Possibly. [speaker001:] and er and i it's easier to do that er sort of, I mean certainly you, you, you were very forthcoming to [Martin:] You might you might [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] come and sit down and get to business, now he may not, he may still want to have a chat about the weather or whatever you know so again be aware that... to cut too soon to business [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] like well I want to know you do, I mean what you picked up [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] oh sorry well I don't wanna talk about that because I want to get to business [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] I could've taken offence at that. [speaker001:] Yeah.... The other thing is as well though you could've actually got more out of Martin by talking about that because you may have mentioned something that he's enjoying and says oh I do that, or something like that. Right. Mm. So it would've led to other things as well. Yeah I, I mean to be honest on that I was more conscious of the fact that we'd only got fifteen [sneeze] minutes and we wanted to get into the thing. I mean it's not er it's not something that I would normally do, I mean I would be quite happy to chat to somebody probably for too long. [Martin:] And that could be just as bad. [speaker001:] I know, yeah, yeah [Martin:] Yeah cos you find you're cutting the too short [speaker001:] That's right. [Martin:] and then cutting business too late, cutting them off as things are starting to flow [speaker001:] Mm. [Martin:] so be aware that you don't want to ramble on too long or this appointment could go on for ever and a day. [speaker001:] I thought that was brilliant, is there somebody at the door? [LAUGHTER] But I, but I think you know the, the, the thing that I found erm most difficult as you say was, was actually completing the C C Q and I think part of it and asking the question but it is, certainly it would be easier to do it using that on your knee rather than doing it at the table because I was aware that I was turning away [Martin:] Yes. [speaker001:] from you and, and I was looking at that and ticking boxes and I was, I was almost not listening to what you were saying at times. Erm [Martin:] Yeah. That that's the C C Q [speaker001:] That's right. But as I say it ce it would be better to do it that way. [Martin:] Good. Any other comments? [speaker002:] Er actually that's, the, the position becomes important, you see that wouldn't present a problem because I was like that [Martin:] Mm. Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] it's just, just an observation you see, avoid these particular problems [Martin:] Yes that's a good point. [speaker002:] and just... wherever you sit. See you could sit that way interview [speaker001:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] But your, your point about not being very er positive... the interviews that I do I, I do in a very relaxed manner. [Martin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Oh yes [speaker003:] I, I think erm I think it may have been that er... you, they assumed you're lacking confidence because you were laughing at yourself so much when you were asking the questions. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] away. [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. [speaker003:] And that made them laugh. [speaker001:] It was actually, I nearly creased up and fell off the chair at that stage.... I'll just pass these to [Martin:] Yeah give them to Ron [speaker001:] they're for you. [Martin:] that's for your... personal development and er [speaker001:] Ta. [Martin:] but try and keep, you know try and get some good feedback... this is something to go away and look at in conjunction with if you wanna view the video again... then say. Good, get the idea? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Martin:] Right, okay. So what time's the next one start? [speaker001:] Er... we'll start in fifteen minutes I think.... Sorry seven minutes. [Martin:] No. [speaker001:] Yeah we've got five minutes The first one started at quarter past. Past, we should be starting the second one at ten past. So we've got a minute. Right. Cos you've got five minutes preparation. [speaker003:] But who's my customer? [Martin:] Er it will be erm... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Did you hear about my erm... my Friday afternoon with Robert as my customer? [Martin:] No. [speaker003:] Well [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] you know that we wer we weren't allowed to see our customer's briefing? Now well I'm sitting there, Robert's my customer and like I'm sitting there and he comes out with this fabulous spiel, right, as this objection, right, that was word perfect and he's sitting there after he's finished it as smug as anything and looking at me as if to say so what are you gonna do about that then? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear! [speaker003:] You know? And at this point [Maggie:] Sorry to keep you waiting. [speaker003:] That's okay. [Maggie:] The timetable doesn't [LAUGHTER] appear to bear [] bear any resemblance to what er I've got on the programme. [speaker001:] You're not looking like Steve [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Steve is downstairs. [speaker001:] Is he? Oh right, well [Maggie:] Well he, well I dunno [speaker001:] we don't mind. We don't mind. Martin came in and told me I was supposed to be upstairs, Steve was... has gone into where I was so Oh well they've obviously swapped round. [speaker003:] Anyway I'll, I'll just finish er telling you this, so Robert's then sitting back smug with himself and looking at me as if to say what do you think about then, and I'm thinking I've heard these words before, where have I [LAUGHTER] heard these words before [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] right, and I look over to Roger and Roger's flicking through his notes like this and as you, you were peeping through and he's trying to find out what, what he's talking about, they're not looking at each other and anyway at the end of it, er we went through it and at the end of it [LAUGHTER] he turned round and went [] how was it, what were you playing at, what was that spiel that you gave... it's in my brief, that's one of my objections [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] and you know what it wasn't one of his objections at all, you know the video that we saw that morning [speaker001:] Yeah it was in that. [speaker003:] and he'd remembered this spiel and he'd got it word perfect and he's reeling it off [LAUGHTER] as his one objection [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You just need people like him don't you? You really do. [LAUGHTER] It was excellent though wasn't it? [speaker003:] It was brilliant [LAUGHTER] because [] [speaker001:] He didn't miss anything out.... Right. [speaker003:] It was just... oh dear. [speaker002:] Are yous gonna start the [speaker001:] I'll start the camera. I'll wait till Maggie finishes her danish. [Maggie:] Please. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Steve came in with a danish and a cup of coffee and I'm thinking [speaker001:] I know. Where's mine. I called in at the wrong time.... ... [Maggie:] ... Are you going to be my customer? Er my sales person? [speaker003:] Unfortunately.... [Maggie:] Never mind. It could be worse for you. [LAUGHTER] I'm not quite sure how but I'm sure it could be worse []. Mm.... [speaker003:] Alan's going to be very dodgy.... [Maggie:] Well if I start being [speaker003:] No I'm not, I'm not [speaker001:] Carry on. [LAUGHTER]... Are you ready?... Joan. Are you ready Joan? [speaker003:] A minute. [speaker001:] Have you finished your danish? [Maggie:] Yes thank you very much and don't put that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Okay have you got both of us in?... [speaker001:] Yes. I did check earlier, hang on I'll just er... as you've moved the chair I'll just check it again.... Yeah you're both in.... The red light is on. Off you go. Action. [speaker003:] Good morning Mrs it's Joan from Friends Provident. [Maggie:] Oh right, yes. Nice to see you. [speaker003:] Yes it's a lovely area around here actually isn't it? I didn't know this part existed actually. [Maggie:] Yeah it's fairly new actually, it's a nice new development. [speaker003:] Well I think it's quite quiet as well. [Maggie:] Well there's a few children around but erm they generally tend to be the older ones. [speaker003:] Oh right. Have you lived here long? [Maggie:] Erm no we moved in eighteen months ago. [speaker003:] Oh right so you're still settling in then. [Maggie:] Yes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Very much so. [speaker003:] You're not new to the area though, just to this bit? [Maggie:] No we, we heard that this development was coming up so we came round and looked and liked it and... took the plunge. [speaker003:] Okay if I can just erm give you my business card that tells you who I am [Maggie:] Alright. [speaker003:] erm... I'll just give you this buyer's guide erm this tells you erm that I'm a representative of Friends Provident and can therefore only recommend the Friends Provident products which er suit your needs. Okay?... [Maggie:] Okay. [speaker003:] So tell me Mrs how did you come to with Friends Provident in the first place? [Maggie:] Ah I think it's when Martin and I were taking a top up on our mortgage the last time erm the building society suggested we took the policy out with you. [speaker003:] Right. So really you were recommended to us then? [Maggie:] Well yes, yes I suppose we were. [speaker003:] Good. Cos that's the usual line you see that, that er that I get, you may have heard the phrase that we've grown big by being recommended. [Maggie:] I haven't actually, no. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Oh right []. Well erm I'll tell you what it is we, we actually build our business by word of mouth... and it er these sort of introductions means that we rarely advertise erm and the money saved can be used to benefit policy holders such as yourself which sometimes means that it can reduce charges and erm increase bonuses wherever possible. How do you feel er about that way of building our business? [Maggie:] Yeah I suppose that's makes, that makes sense, yes. [speaker003:] Oh good, good. Because during the course of our discussions today I'll ask you to introduce me to others if, and only if, you think this meeting with me today has been of benefit to yourself, would that be okay?... [Maggie:] Mm yes, let's see what you can do for me first. [speaker003:] Well I can understand that.... Okay. As I said to you er when I spoke to you on the phone, I wanted to come erm one to introduce myself because I'm now the new financial adviser for this area, erm also to review your existing policies to make sure that they are doing what they were originally designed to do. What we find is that sometimes people have taken out policies some years ago and they've actually forgotten what their money's doing for them so erm that's another side of it... and also to introduce our new financial planning service erm and in doing so we may be able to highlight areas in which we could save you money er for example erm saving you money on tax or increasing your income either now or some time in the future. Is that okay?... [Maggie:] Well yes, yes that sounds fine. [speaker003:] Good. Good. Well tt during, during our discussions I'll be taking notes on your current financial situation but also why erm your thoughts for the future and erm and in doing this I'll be using this form to actually assist me to actually take down these notes. It also keeps me on the right track as well. Is, is that okay? [Maggie:] It does look rather a big document, you know. [speaker003:] Well [sigh] it is but er what we do is we, we've got the one er we've got the one erm pack that actually we use for, for all kinds of business and not all of this would actually relate to yourself but what we do is we combine it in into one pack. So a lot of this would actually be irrelevant to yourself. [Maggie:] What are you going to do with the information though? I mean erm... does, does this get, get s given to other people? [speaker003:] No any information that I actually take from yourself and put down here is completely confidential. It goes back to our branch and erm everything they tell me it's completely confidential and erm... you would be able to see this and sign whatever I wrote in here as well. [Maggie:] Okay. [speaker003:] Is that okay? [Maggie:] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] Good. Okay then.... Have you got any middle names?... [Maggie:] No just er just the one name.... [speaker003:] Okay.... Your husband's not in today? [Maggie:] Er no he's at business. [speaker003:] Oh right, okay.... Could I have your husband's name please? [Maggie:] His er name's Martin.... [speaker003:] Your both tax payers? [Maggie:] Unfortunately yes. [speaker003:] I know, I feel like that as well but [LAUGHTER] never mind []. Can I enquire your husband's date of birth please? [Maggie:] Yes it's the fourth April... nineteen forty seven.... [speaker003:] Okay and children, do you have children, yes. [Maggie:] Yes we've got two erm... eight and ten. My daughter's the eldest, Susan. [speaker003:] Okay.... And [Maggie:] John.... [speaker003:] Could I have their date of births? [Maggie:] Erm Susan is the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty two and John is the tenth November erm er nineteen eighty four. [speaker003:] Eight four. Okay you've got no other dependants, financial dependants? [Maggie:] Er well Martin does have an elderly mother, she's not financially dependent on us as such but we do try and keep a track of her finances and if she needs help we, we... erm help her out. [speaker003:] Oh right, okay. Er she lives with you? [Maggie:] No she doesn't live with us but she does live locally and that was one of the reasons for being here because it's a little bit easier to get to her. [speaker003:] Okay. But this probably makes her feel a little bit more secure as well doesn't it? [Maggie:] Yes and the kids can drop round and see her from time to time. [speaker003:] Cheer her up [Maggie:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Okay erm your children go to the local schools do they? [Maggie:] Er well Susan's erm gone to, obviously gone on to senior school now er she's, she went, she started this year. John, we don't know what's happening at the moment, he's, we're not, we're not at all sure. There are a few problems there. [speaker003:] Right. Have they got any ideas about what they want to do in the future? Yeah? [Maggie:] Er well Susan's very much into music and erm I think she thinks she'd like to earn her living that way but it's a very hard way to earn a living. [speaker003:] I can imagine so, yes. It'd be a very difficult business to get into. Okay. Erm... so maybe they'll be going on to university, college university. [Maggie:] Susan I think probably will, John's more on the practical side. [speaker003:] Okay.... You always say that you never get two children the same, they're [Maggie:] No. [speaker003:] always, it sounds as if they've got completely different personalities. [Maggie:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes []. Susan takes after Martin's family and unfortunately John takes after my family. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] Okay. Your state of health? [Maggie:] Erm mine's good but Martin's been having some back trouble.... [speaker003:] Is that only recently is it? [Maggie:] Mm no he's had it over a period of time, we think it may be hereditary cos his father had some back trouble too when he was alive [speaker003:] Oh right. [Maggie:] so... he's going for some more tests next week. [speaker003:] Right so he's under... okay. Do you smoke? [Maggie:] I don't but Martin does.... [speaker003:] Cigarettes? [Maggie:] Yes. Far too many, that's a source of contention. [speaker003:] My husband actually said to me that giving up smoking was easy because he's done it plenty of times. [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Yes Martin has as well. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] So erm... what do you do in your spare time? [Maggie:] Well I don't have actually a lot of spare time. Erm as a family we, we tend to erm go camping. [speaker003:] Right. You're not into any of this bunjee jumping or free fall parachute jumping of anything? [Maggie:] Oh! Perish the thought you have to be certified to do that. [speaker003:] I don't know how they've got the nerve actually, it's quite terrifying just to watch it. [LAUGHTER]... Okay. Wha what is it that you do for a living? [Maggie:] I'm, well I work part-time down at the local library.... [speaker003:] You are a librarian? [Maggie:] I was yes I er I got my degree in... was qualified and er the hours they, they were offering happened to fit in with the family so I was quite glad to get the extra income. [speaker003:] Right. And that's just down in the library is that it? [Maggie:] Yes. Yes.... [speaker003:] Okay and what does your wife, tt your wife, your husband do? [Maggie:] Er he's the sales manager for erm software company.... [speaker003:] Oh he's into computers is he? [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, that's why I've got one upstairs []. [speaker003:] They drive you round the bend. My husband works in computers as well. They're worse than children [Maggie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Who does he work for? [Maggie:] Erm it's A P C erm... they moved their, their erm business out from erm... er Liverpool, decided to come back here cos it was cheaper. [speaker003:] And that's just down near? [Maggie:] Yes.... [speaker003:] Okay what's your gross salary? [Maggie:] Oh couldn't tell you my gross straight off, erm I do twenty hours a week and I bring home er bring home about thirty five pound.... [speaker003:] And your husband? [Maggie:] Erm well he's expecting a rise in the spring erm but last year he was on... twenty five and a half.... [speaker003:] Obviously neither of you are at retirement age so you won't be in receipt of any retirement benefits. [Maggie:] No.... [speaker003:] Okay, do you know what your actual take home pay is out of those? Yours would obviously be thirty five pounds a week. [Maggie:] I'm not sure because erm Martin has a number of things that come out of his er... salary, there's erm his pension of course and erm there, there's some insurance scheme they run at work as well.... [speaker003:] Okay.... Is that er erm a contracted out pension scheme [Maggie:] Yes, yes... [speaker003:] I is it a non-contributory... [Maggie:] No no no, he does contribute. [speaker003:] Right. And the insurance? Did you say there was an insurance [Maggie:] Yes there's some sort of insurance scheme, it's erm... widows and orphans som something like that. [speaker003:] Right. What's that, that actually insuring for? [Maggie:] Erm if anything happens to him quite a large lump sum comes to us. [speaker003:] So it's, it's a life assurance? [Maggie:] Mm oh well yeah I suppose so.... [speaker003:] Okay. Have you any other source of income, either you or your husband? [Maggie:] Erm well I've got a little cottage that was left to me up in erm North Wales that we rent out.... [speaker003:] Erm is that seasonal is it that you just rent out in the summer? [Maggie:] Erm no it does get rented out sometimes in the winter as well but it tends to be more in the summer.... [speaker003:] Right so you rent that out on a weekly basis? [Maggie:] Yes. Aha. I go through an estate agent up there that, that acts as my agent but erm don't make any money out of it. [speaker003:] No? [Maggie:] Well no the, the cost, the rent more or less covers the cost of maintenance. [speaker003:] Right. What is the rent that you're actually charging? [Maggie:] Erm it's... er si sixty pound a week.... [speaker003:] Erm but you've maintenance charges to come out of it. [Maggie:] I've got to pay the estate agent as well.... [speaker003:] Your husband, has he any other source of income? [Maggie:] No.... [speaker003:] Okay. I think that's it.... I've come to the end of the form.... fifteen minutes? [speaker001:] two minutes [LAUGHTER] ... Have you er has it gotta re be rewound right back to the beginning? [speaker003:] No because I've got my erm interview from [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker003:] from Friday. [speaker001:] Do you know exactly where it is? rewind on there. [speaker003:] Oh it'll be zero won't it? [speaker001:] Alright. You're not [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [Maggie:] Hidden talents you see. [speaker003:] It is.... [Maggie:] It's a good thing you didn't have me doing it. The camera would have fallen apart by now. [speaker003:] I did it, there was this one group on Friday [Maggie:] Really? [speaker003:] Yeah, we had one that broke and [speaker001:] Well Diane's group was probably okay. [speaker003:] Well one of their videos erm Martin had got the position of the camera set up wrong so all she got was erm arms. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Maggie:] Are you not gonna play it back to... [speaker001:] Yeah. [Maggie:] Oh right.... [speaker001:] We are... What do we want, just press play? [speaker003:] Yes.... [speaker001:] [video recording] [speaker003:] Rewind [speaker001:] You don't like that one Joan do you? [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] Yeah hold it.... [thirteen minutes of video recording playing the role playing exercise transcribed above]... [end of side one of tape and start of side two] [speaker001:] Sir Patrick Mayhew became the new Northern Ireland Secretary. His appointment is thought to herald a tougher security policy particularly so since it was announced that the back bench... [video ends] I think that's it. Right who's going to start? Are you starting Robert? I'll start, yeah.... in dreamland.... Right. Erm... greetings and appropriate sociability... although it flowed... a lot of it was actually sort of statements and or closed questions. [speaker003:] Right. Oh I'm sorry I aren't supposed to talk am I? [speaker001:] Well no you're not really but don't worry about it. Erm... it, it did sort of get going but I felt that Maggie held back a little bit on that whereas you, you might have got er you know a bit, a bit more information with open questions.... Erm ha having gone through that you moved on er and gave out... your business card fi first and then the buyer's guide... erm... don't know whether you're happy doing it that way or whether it's better round the other way, I... I, you, you tend to think if you give somebody the buyer's guide first... when they start to look at it you give them your business card and take it away, perhaps if you do it the other way round they might s start reading the buyer's guide [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] but... oh no I mean you gave them both out anyway, that, that was er that was no problem. Erm the link to referrals and introductions... that was very good.... Erm you, you went into that very well. The only, the only bit I did [LAUGHTER] find was [] the very last part during the course... didn't sound as natural as the rest of it. The first part, the build up to it [speaker003:] No I, I [speaker001:] was very good. [speaker003:] Sorry. [speaker001:] But as I say the last bit where you sa dur during the course of the, of this conversation it almost sounded as though you were gonna, you're doing it parrot, parrot fashion whereas the rest of it was, was superb, there was no, no problems in that. Erm your statement of purpose was good, in fact excellent. Erm... the tentative benefit you put in... at the end of that you said is that okay... and Maggie said yes... erm the answer could be construed I, I thought in that basis well yes it's okay so what... whereas if you'd've said is that of interest to you [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] you'd've known that, you know, she, she was gonna be interested in that.... Erm... checking the willingness to proceed, you did that as you went along. [speaker003:] Maybe a little bit too often though. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No erm... Maggie, Maggie arranged an objection about the C C Q erm and you overcame that... very easily, no problems at all really, you went through that well. Erm she said about, you know, the thickness or the bulging er the information and worry about giving personal details and, and that was good, that was fine. Erm... so as far as the, the you know, the steps was concerned that, that went through good, very well, and... you went through them all in er in, in the right order. Other comments... you didn't actually ask at any ti any point through there I don't believe whether the husband ought to be involved. [speaker003:] No I didn't. I forgot. [speaker001:] Erm... it turned out in the end that, that you got some information about the husband, particularly about a pension scheme, but you almost got the impression was well, you know, was it really right? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] I think a lot of er a lot of wives may not have given you as much information as Maggie did. Erm... also as far as the husband's back trouble was concerned, I f I felt that perhaps you should've got a bit more information about the fact that he was going for tests next week at the hospital. You've gotta look at it as an ongoing er on an ongoing problem but erm you, you could've perhaps have gone into it a little bit more then just to find out... erm... there was also a mention of, of an income rise in the spring [speaker003:] Which I made a note of. [speaker001:] Yeah but you didn't a actually sort of hone in on any particular date. The only point I felt w you know we mentioned the other day that if, if there's a rise say on the first of April then you wanna get in a couple of months before then. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] It could've varied, you know, any time if you like from, from March till May and without knowing the exact date you might be a bit late... or a bit too early... er for future business.... As far as the, the cottage... er was concerned, the information about that erm... the answer was oh well you know I don't make any money out of it... erm you, you asked about whether it, whether it was erm... whether it was making money but you di you didn't actually ask, bearing in mind that, that, that Maggie had already said she paid tax, whether she actually de declared it for tax purposes and what, what sort, what sort of figure it showed. Whether there was actually any income there and er as a result of that.... Erm bearing in mind that when she actually came and spoke about her part-time job her income was thirty five pound a week and yet she said she was a tax payer... well take home pay was thirty five pound a week and talking about being a tax payer. Erm she said that her husband was a sales manager... you didn't clarify, you know,whe exactly what that was. Whe whether it was involved in, whether there was any travel involved or whether it was all desk bound or anything else... you know whether he goes zooming off all over the country or... whether, whether there's a possibility of travel involved or any danger in it, in the job, unlikely but... [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Alright? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm... as far as mannerisms are concerned, the only one I picked up was that you say okay... quite often.... [speaker003:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Okay [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] but other than that it's fine. Maggie do you wanna go if, if you've gotta shoot off?... No [Maggie:] Is it time to change over? [speaker001:] No we just, we, we finished a bit early. [Maggie:] Oh. [speaker001:] I see. [Maggie:] Oh. [speaker001:] Anybody else want to add anything? Erm... not, not really. I thought, I thought it, it... flowed a a apart from all that, I think it flowed Mm. well Yeah. and of course, you know like yours yourself Bob and probably both of us, it's, we're not used to... the actual C C Q as such Mm. which we need to be and once we get into the rhythm I'm sure it'll all be a lot easier but you seem to have a calmness about your... how you speak which is good and you know I'm sure I'll go to pieces but erm... yeah it was just, and what I've picked up on... as you say where it's er... how did you come to Friends Provident bum de bum de bum, we're going through erm a structured erm spiel if you like and then they're saying well I don't really wanna give you... any you know, recommendations at this moment and erm what we should do there is, is I suppose apack that isn't it? We're just saying oh well we'll see how it goes... and we're sort of putting it down whereas I suppose we should hit them straight away. [speaker003:] Well she didn't object, she just wanted to see how it went so it wasn't a [speaker001:] Yeah but it's I don't know. [speaker003:] Right, okay, fair comment though, fair comment. [speaker001:] Okay? I mean you know it's, it's both you and me Yeah. and we're probably the same... you know Yeah. I, I could quite easily miss it. Right. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Anything else?... No? Not really. Bill? [speaker002:] Er never asked about full names er... of everyone whether it be yourself, the husband or the kids the full names. Er who do you work for... is it a local library, is it district council, is it gr er er regional council [speaker003:] I asked that. [speaker001:] I thought she said local library actually. [speaker002:] She said local library and the local library could be run by the regional council, it could be run by the district council because... although you work part-time... you've got to look at pension if you've got other income er to use the revenue maximum. Erm... never got to what, what your annual salary was at all, you just said thirty five pounds was take home pay erm... confidentiality... yeah you'll be able to sign it but that doesn't give confidence as to whether anybody else is gonna see it [speaker003:] No I did tell her that it was completely confidential. [speaker002:] You said it was completely confidential but I mean I would just say well it's, it's between Friends Provident and yourself... end of story.... Erm does er Martin's mother own her own home? Wee question, and I mean she's dependent upon them but she may own [speaker003:] But she isn't dependent on them, she's, I did actually clarify that. [speaker002:] Yeah. Dependent in the sense of looking after them but she is independent so therefore she may own her own home so there's obviously the opportunity what happens. One thing I picked up, maybe rightly or wrongly, well there's two, there's two actually... Maggie said that John was like them and he had problems... maybe you've got problems, Maggie has problems I mean. Erm where do you go when they went camping? Camping in the Himalayas?... I don't know I mean er maybe these are... minute but whether you should explore them at that moment in time I mean only experience will tell.... [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker002:] Finish it off. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I th there was, there was one big point that I actually missed out as well that neither of you have picked up on... and that was that Maggie actually said that they were having problems with John in school and I should've come back and, and said... well she di she actually said that she was having problems with John, full stop, and I should've actually come back and, and clarified whether it was at school or not and hence led to the private education and I missed that one completely... and realized that I'd done it afterwards but none of you picked up on that one. [Maggie:] Erm well, you haven't heard me yet. [speaker001:] No [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] No obviously [speaker001:] Right. Okay Maggie. [Maggie:] Erm greeting and appropriate sociability fine, you were a little bit nervous so you tended to sort of talk over me a little bit but that's not a problem, it probably wouldn't happen in real life. You said about the buyer's guide that it's, that you were a representative of Friends Provident, you're an employee and it's very very important to stress that because people like Abbey National were appointed representatives but we are employees... and that's one of the things, that's one of the good things you can get out of the buyer's guide.... Erm I thought your, your link to referrals was excellent. However I did throw in a little bit of doubt, there was a possible objection there that you might have apacked you sound a little bit doubtful Mrs, do you have a problem with that [speaker003:] Mm. [Maggie:] and find out what my problem was. Your statement of purpose was excellent, there was a good explanation erm the fact about the existing policies and what you might be able to achieve in the future, very very good. Your tentative benefit was not perhaps as clear as it might have been which would have made it easier to lead into my willingness to proceed. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Maggie:] Erm... the point that both the others raised about my objection with the large document and my objection regarding what you were going to do with the information you could have apacked and come out with a stronger result. Erm a lot of cl closed questions but that's unavoidable to a certain extent with this part of the C C Q, however you didn't ask about whether there are any other family locally or otherwise [speaker003:] Mm. [Maggie:] yes there was my mother-in-law, but there's a probability that there's quite a few others living locally. Erm... I said it was unfortunate that John took after my family and that was your cue to ask a bit more, I said we were having problems erm and also the business about Martin's back, the tests, what problems, how long it's been ongoing, what are the possible future problems arising from that. With the camping, yes, where do we go, who else is involved, again the openings for referrals. Erm the rise was also the cue to check on erm pension increase and I felt you should've asked a little bit more about the life cover, most companies do have arrangements for quite large sums of money to be paid out to dependants, this will have an impact on life... cover planning in the future. Erm you asked about the cottage and the amounts, yeah there was... you could have asked a bit more perhaps about the tax there but otherwise you're very good.... I felt relaxed, felt you knew what you were doing. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Er there are some areas on that that, that... that all of you picked up on that I actually thought that when, just dealing with that part of the C C Q like finding out about details and everything [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] I knew that there was a problem and made a note of it erm that it was hereditary and that he was seeing a consultant, but there's other parts of the C C Q that would actually relate to that and go into it in a lot more detail [Maggie:] Mhm. [speaker003:] so I mean erm and that is the reason why I didn't go into wanting to get all the details at that point erm [speaker001:] Fair enough. [speaker003:] you know so there's, there's a lot of things that you bear in mind and you take notes on them as you're doing it [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but they're not relevant to that so when you actually come to that you fill in all the relevant details [speaker001:] Let's, yeah and I thought [Maggie:] Cos you can jump around you see, you can [speaker003:] Yeah. [Maggie:] actually move on to the page, you don't have to go page two, page three, page four... oh right John has problems, is that related to [speaker003:] Yeah. [Maggie:] your husband's back problem, could you give me a little bit more detail. [speaker003:] Yeah. But I, I, I know that I missed out on the, the private education one because I should've come back on that. [Maggie:] But good and relaxed you got all, every part of the structure there and that's the important part. [speaker001:] like the the [Maggie:] Thank you. [speaker001:] wage rise [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] I mean I thought you'd've made a note about oh I must come back to that later [speaker003:] Yeah. But I, I think I mean [speaker001:] But you know later Yeah. [speaker003:] That's, that's it [speaker001:] not, not at this point [speaker003:] As Maggie's talking to me I mean you can see like my... here I mean I've got all sorts, as you would use that, those pages for, there's notes as I'm going through of things that we were doing and er the university and, and everything like that and there's other parts of it that, I mean the, the things that you would come back to and elaborate more on [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] but not necessarily within what we had to do today so. [speaker001:] That's fair enough. [speaker003:] So that was why. [speaker001:] That was good. [speaker003:] I'm not saying that I would've picked up on all those points because [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] there were some of them that I had missed er completely but [speaker001:] Okay. Right. [Maggie:] Right. [speaker001:] Thanks Maggie. [Maggie:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Thank you. [Maggie:] You're welcome.... So, nice atmosphere.... [speaker003:] Right I'm in [speaker001:] downstairs now. [speaker003:] Oh it's Bill now isn't it? [speaker001:] It's Bill now yeah. [speaker003:] Have none of you got your er [speaker001:] whereabouts [Maggie:] Right. On me way. [speaker001:] Is there any coffee [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] There may not be any left. [speaker001:] you came in. I suppose you're ready to top yourself now are you? [speaker003:] Who? [speaker001:] Ready to top yourself now. [speaker003:] Who me? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I don't mind criticism as long as it's constructive. And you learn [speaker001:] Well I thought you you did alright there.... [speaker003:] Pardon?... [speaker001:] I thought you did fine.... was quite interesting. [speaker003:] Pardon? [speaker001:] ... [LAUGHTER]... What did your parents die of? Nothing serious I hope. Has he done this? No. No? Oh well I'd better not... [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] Oh good stuff []... [speaker003:] We had horrendous problems with the tapes on Friday.... [speaker001:] We've not met before have we? [speaker003:] Oh no sorry, Joan. [speaker001:] Hi I'm Steve. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Hi []. [speaker001:] Whereabouts are you from Joan? [speaker003:] Leith in north Edinburgh. [speaker001:] Edinburgh [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ah so that's Ron isn't it, of Edinburgh? [speaker003:] There's the two Rons. [speaker001:] The two Rons? [speaker003:] Yes Ron, Ron and Ron [speaker001:] Yes.... I don't know Ron but obviously I know Ron.... [speaker003:] The accent's a giveaway actually. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well i it could be Glasgow couldn't it? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Unless I suppose if you come from up there you, I would... presumably you would know that's an Edinburgh accent and Glas Glasgow has got a different accent has it? [speaker003:] To be qui I can't actually tell the difference [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] erm they all sound very similar to me.... [speaker001:] So have you been in this business before? [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] So what, what, what was your background? [speaker003:] I worked for Group Four before moving to Edinburgh, erm tt... I was the accounts manager for the retail division in Group Four. Nothing to do with the prisoners though [speaker001:] No, I wasn't gonna say anything about that. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So how are you finding this?... [speaker003:] Erm... [speaker001:] [singing] doo de doo de doo []. [speaker003:] parts of it erm are not too bad and other parts of it I find a lot of them actually quite confusing erm [speaker001:] Is that the technical side? [speaker003:] Well some of it erm with some of it is, I mean it's like the taxation side and, and things like that I can understand quite easily because I'm used to dealing in that but when it comes to [speaker001:] Excuse me. [speaker003:] and the products so it's [speaker001:] Did, did you have two weeks sort of training leaving before you joined the branch? [speaker003:] Three weeks. [speaker001:] Three weeks.... [speaker003:] I think because everybody else was erm already in erm and knew a lot more I sometimes [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] erm because erm completely irrelevant and as soon as I go away from it er erm you know there's times when it's quite confusing really. Erm I mean Martin, Martin's very good and he'll, you know, stop me there and, and, and go back over it and but it, it, the... the was already there so it's already got you thinking about other things and, you know, things that were completely irrelevant and it confused me at times.... But [speaker001:] It'll all come clearer I'm sure.... [speaker002:] Maybe it's just a question of practising. [speaker003:] Bill did you know that there's nothing on this tape? [speaker002:] Yes.... [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Yes there's absolutely nothing on it, that's the problem we had [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] on Friday. [speaker003:] I was just checking before I actually erm [speaker002:] No no, no problem. [speaker003:] went ahead.... Are you ready then?... [speaker001:] Well it's thee and me. [speaker002:] As ready as I'll ever be. [speaker001:] I'm Steve, nice to see you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You're Bill are you? [speaker002:] That's right, that's right. [speaker001:] Yes.... Cue action one two three. And we're doing exactly the same, it's just the, the first bit isn't it? [speaker002:] First, first part. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Okay. Well I'd like to do the introductions [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] okay? [speaker001:] Okay. Sorry.... [speaker002:] Mr Bill Friends Provident. [speaker001:] Oh nice to see you. [speaker002:] Nice to see you. Nice to put a face to a name. Erm... thanks very much for the directions er you gave me, it's quite awkward coming off the main road there cos you really have to [speaker001:] Yes it is isn't it? [speaker002:] How long have you been here? [speaker001:] Been here about five years. [speaker002:] Yeah and was this of your own choosing or did your have to move to this particular area? [speaker001:] Oh n no we've, we've been in the area for about fifteen years but we've, we needed a move up so er that's why we've come here. [speaker002:] Was it an increase in the family that caused that? [speaker001:] Well there has been an increase in the family, you're right, yes. [speaker002:] Mm. Good, good. Er it's a lovely garden, who looks after the garden? Your [speaker001:] Oh that's my wife [speaker002:] Oh [speaker001:] she's, she's the gardener. [speaker002:] she's the one with the green fingers. [speaker001:] Absolutely. [speaker002:] That's great. Oh well that's fine. Er well before we proceed er there's two pieces of information I'd like to give you [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the first one er explains that I'm er employed by Friends Provident and as such could only er recommend or advise on Friends Provident's products [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] that's the form there, you can read this at your leisure or you can read it later on [speaker001:] Do you ever find that that makes life a bit difficult for you... only recommending one company?... [speaker002:] Well i it can yes but i it can but at the same time it, we have a good detailed knowledge of every product and we only sell products to your needs. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er the other thing is I'm going to give you a business card, if [speaker001:] Oh fine, yes. [speaker002:] at any time in the future you need er con to contact me er that's a point of contact you can [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] you can have. Okay. Erm and proceeding to business you know tell me why did you come to Friends Provident in the first place? [speaker001:] Erm it was a mailshot I received oh must be about twelve, thirteen years ago from Friends Provident. [speaker002:] Yeah. And er you just er answered the advert. [speaker001:] Yes that's right, looked like a, a good plan, I was looking for a savings plan and er I suppose it's one of those er fortunate circumstances, Friends Provident sent some stuff through, it looked good so I took it out. [speaker002:] Oh that's good. Erm well in actual fact Friends Provident er actually built their bus business by recommendation [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er we built our business by word of mouth introductions er which means that we very rarely advertise. This means that we can pass on the benefits to policy holders such as yourself by either reducing the policy charges or indeed er increasing the bonuses wherever possible. [speaker001:] Oh I'm all in favour of that one. [speaker002:] So you, you think that's a good way of building business? [speaker001:] Oh yeah definitely. [speaker002:] Well erm what I'd like to do during our course of discussions is er ask you for referrals [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er of others that may benefit from this but only if and we er you find this of particular benefit, er to yourself. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Is that alright? [speaker001:] Yeah perfectly reasonable. [speaker002:] Great. Now erm the reason why I'm here is really to put a face to a name [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er there's a new er thing started with Friends Provident by er following first call, I'm now responsible for looking after you as a policy holder, that's the first point [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the second one is that er we want to make sure that the policies you do have are doing the job that they were initially designed to do, and it's thirteen years since you er took out the policy [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] so it's about time we actually saw that the policy was doing [speaker001:] Yeah why's, why's it taken so long for Friends Provident to get round to doing this? [speaker002:] Well it's the industry in general er feel that er this is, this is the proper way to go [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean you've now had twelve annual statements, a piece of the policy has gone but you've never [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and we feel that this is the correct er way to do it. In addition what we're actually doing is we're building in this new fin financial planning guide which gives you the opportunity to just look at where you are just now and where you want to do in the future. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Now er by doing that we actually use what we call a questionnaire [speaker001:] Yeah well before you go any further [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you talked about these erm these statements, these bonuses [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] would you be able to explain how they work to me?... [speaker002:] Well er let's, let's just look at the policy there er what type of policy do we have here? [speaker001:] You call it, I think it's called a maxi-dowment plan. [speaker002:] A maxi-dowment policy. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Now that's... technically it's a with profits policy which means that there are bonuses added annually to er to it [speaker001:] Yeah that's the piece of paper you sent me isn't it? [speaker002:] That's right. Now that one was for ten years [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] now you ha you must've converted to a unit linked policy by continuing after the period you [speaker001:] Oh yes I, that's right I did, I got something from you to say I could exercise some option to, to switch it over and I didn't need the cash at the time [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] so I just rolled it into, to something else I guess. [speaker002:] So you're actually continuing on the savings fund [speaker001:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] so we want to do is look at that one and we see that it's keeping on track and er it's doing the things that we actually want to do [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] that's good. That's fine. Now erm tt... what I would like to do is er take a few notes in what we call this questionnaire. Now this is really a road mark in my opinion [speaker001:] There's a lot of it, how long's this gonna take by the way? You've got [speaker002:] It's gonna take [speaker001:] stacks of paper in there. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah it, it does look frightening doesn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er in actual fact er it's a multip multi-purpose form so that we cover everyone whether they be self-employed, employed, so on and so forth, so many of the actual parts to this may not be relevant to your situation [speaker001:] Right. Mhm. [speaker002:] okay? But er it should take about an hour, hour and a half. [speaker001:] Erm yes er my, my wife will be back back in about an hour and a half's time so erm that's good timing actually. [speaker002:] Good. Good. Er right, now there was just a few things that er I've got to ask. Erm... now you're married obviously [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and er is it Ste Steve your full name? [speaker001:] Geoffrey Lester are the er middle names, family names. [speaker002:] Right.... And is that er J or G? [speaker001:] G. G. [speaker002:] G. [speaker001:] And Lester as in Piggott.... [speaker002:] Now er your wife is, her full name please? [speaker001:] Deborah... Bridgit and that's [spelling] B R I D G I T []. [speaker002:] [spelling] D... [speaker001:] [spelling] B R I D [speaker002:] G D G [] [speaker001:] D G I T [] [speaker002:] that's unusual [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] you usually spell it [speaker001:] that's why I spell it because most people get my name wrong and get her name wrong and it's, it's a source of irritation to me. [speaker002:] Well let's get on correct at the, at the outcome. Is, is there any unusual name? Was there er [speaker001:] Who whose hers or mine? [speaker002:] an ances ancestry? [speaker001:] Oh yes yeah they're family names, yeah the Bridgit and the Geoffrey Lester are, are family names. [speaker002:] Right, oh that's interesting. Now erm tt we have your date of birth but I'll just confirm that er just to make sure that our records our correct [speaker001:] Mhm [speaker002:] er twenty one eight fifty? [speaker001:] Yeah your records are spot on. [speaker002:] Grand that's, well that's fine, and your wife's date of birth? [speaker001:] Yes her date of birth is the twentieth of the first nineteen fifty eight. [speaker002:] Nineteen fifty eight, thank you. Er and do er do you both pay tax? [speaker001:] Erm I pay tax, she's a non tax payer. [speaker002:] She is a non tax payer. Okay. Erm what dependants do you have? I notice a photograph of your, your children there. [speaker001:] Yes, yeah we've got three children. [speaker002:] Three children. Names? [speaker001:] Yeah there's Sam er Sam's the eldest boy er and he's nine years old [speaker002:] And is that Samuel... his name? [speaker001:] Erm i it's Samuel yes sorry, yes it is Samuel. [speaker002:] Yeah and any [speaker001:] No no other names, no. [speaker002:] Right. And [speaker001:] Then there's Max, he's the er the middle, middle boy. [speaker002:] And Max's full name? [speaker001:] Er it's Maximilian.... And er he's three [speaker002:] He's three, fine. Thank you. [speaker001:] And there's Harriet who is er well she's three months old. [speaker002:] The new addition. [speaker001:] Yes indeed. [speaker002:] That's lovely. Right erm can we go back to Samuel and just ask his date of birth please. [speaker001:] Oh well now you're asking me a tricky one. Erm it's rather embarrassing I can't, to be honest I can't quite recall his, his da I can't recall any of them. I always get my wife's [speaker002:] None of them, none at all? [speaker001:] date of birth right but the children, erm that's I mean, that's how old they are. [speaker002:] Right well that's no problem er when your wife comes back in an hour's time [speaker001:] don't no don't say that to her or I'll be in the dog house [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] if I can't remember their birthdays. [speaker002:] Okay that's fine. Are there any other dependants at all er financially dependent upon you other than your er immediate family? [speaker001:] Erm... [speaker002:] In-laws? [speaker001:] no I can't think of anyone. No. [speaker002:] There's no one at all? Right. Erm what's the, your future intentions regarding the children? I mean obviously er you said eight six and three months er any future ideas as to looking to their education in the future. [speaker001:] Er well there's a good state school here so er I mean it's one of the reasons we, we moved here, we wanted to get into the catchment area erm so I've got no, no thoughts about private education. [speaker002:] Fine. But what about further education if they show an aptitude to go to university or college? [speaker001:] Oh most definitely yes I, I'd like them er i if they're bright enough to go then er be very happy for them to, to go to university. [speaker002:] Well this would be the ideal opportunity to look at that because obviously planning now for the future gives you an opportunity just as you've done with your maxi-endowment [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] built up a wee nest egg, at least there's money there to assist er [speaker001:] Yeah actually that's that's a good point because I'm, I had something from you the other day your erm, you know the magazine that you sent [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] round and it was talking about erm was it university fees [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and er actually that is something perhaps we ought to be talking about. [speaker002:] That's something we could look at in the future because we can actually stagger the payments for that and it [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] it matures on a year by year basis which may be of interest. [speaker001:] Yeah I was thinking about, you know, fifteen, twenty pounds a month might be er a reasonable investment to, to put aside for the children. [speaker002:] Right I'll just make a note of that. Thank you. Now erm... the,wh if we go into your, the, the health, your health situation how er... when was the last time you saw the doctor? [speaker001:] Er [sigh] last time I went to the doctor was when I hurt my back. [speaker002:] And when was that? [speaker001:] Er well just over a year ago. [speaker002:] A year ago. Has that been a recurring thing or was it er was it just a one off situation? [speaker001:] I hope it's a one off, I'm sure it is. [speaker002:] You've never had any problems in, in, in the past? [speaker001:] What with my back? [speaker002:] With your back? [speaker001:] No no that was, that was erm a com a completely er something which had never happened before [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I was, I was just being foolish in, in picking up er one of the children and my back went. [speaker002:] Mm.... Your wife and, and her health apart from the pregnancy and the new arrival [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] three months ago, er how's, how's her general state of health. [speaker001:] Oh she enjoys good health. [speaker002:] No, no problems at all? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Fine. Obviously during the pregnancy she was visiting the doctor so she would get a good check up. [speaker001:] That's right. Yes. [speaker002:] Ah that's fine. Do either of you smoke? [speaker001:] Erm I, I smoke er a ci ci a cigar probably once every two or three months. [speaker002:] And your wife, does she smoke cigarettes? [speaker001:] No she doesn't. [speaker002:] Not at all? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Fine. Er what do you do for relaxation? [speaker001:] Erm I like to visit the theatre, the cinema erm play a bit of tennis, squash... [speaker002:] Good. So you're qui quite [speaker001:] That's about it really. [speaker002:] quite active er as well as passive [speaker001:] Well it sounds like a lot of things but, but actually getting a game of tennis in it can be quite difficult because you know the weather's turned against us now so [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] you make an arrangement to have a game of tennis but the weather, you know i it's snowing or it's raining so a lot of them get rained off which is er... quite sad. [speaker002:] Oh that's a pity, yeah. Yeah. Er and what, what do you do for a, a living? Er what's, what's your occupation? [speaker001:] Oh tel telecommunications manager. [speaker002:] Telecommunications manager. Erm and what does that actually involve? [speaker001:] Erm... there are networks throughout the U K and Europe erm for my company and I have to make sure that er all the telecommunication systems are up and running. [speaker002:] Right. Is that er er a central based or are you travelling around [speaker001:] I do a bit of travelling, yes. [speaker002:] Right er how many miles... roughly per annum do you do?... [speaker001:] Mm well erm I do a bit of fly I mean do you mean flying? [speaker002:] as a er as a fare paying passenger, you're, you're, you're not er doing that [speaker001:] Well this is bu these are like business miles that I [speaker002:] business miles [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] aye well I mean er er in, on the ca er in a car or something the mileage [speaker001:] Oh in a car? Oh er probably about twenty two, twenty three thousand. [speaker002:] Right. And the telecommunications manager is with whom? Who is your employer. [speaker001:] Excon. [speaker002:] Excon. And they're based? [speaker001:] Erm well they're, they're based actually in, in America but I work for the U K division. [speaker002:] And their head office is? [speaker001:] In er Leatherhead. [speaker002:] Leatherhead, right, that's super. Obviously your wife er with the new arrival she, she won't be working as yet [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] has she any intentions of working? [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No.... [speaker002:] Coming to your er employer, what's your gross salary per annum? [speaker001:] Tt er [sigh] well it's thirty five thousand [speaker002:] Does that include bonuses [speaker001:] There's a few other bits and pieces to be added in to that. [speaker002:] Right so there's, there's the basic salary of thirty five thousand? [speaker001:] Basically thirty five. [speaker002:] Er fine, thank you.... Right erm... and is there regular overtime involved? [speaker001:] No there's n there's no overtime, I do get erm some performance related pay [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] er last year wasn't too much it was about two and a half thousand. [speaker002:] And is there any er share participation in er [speaker001:] Yes there is I've been, yeah I've been I've been buying shares er Excon shares in a share p er a share purchase [speaker002:] That's a very sensible thing to do because [speaker001:] Yes it's done brilliantly. [speaker002:] Yeah because you're on well in some instances you can more than double your money [speaker001:] Well we have done yes it's been very very good. [speaker002:] Yeah and so I believe it's what, two hundred and fifty pounds per month is the maximum [speaker001:] Mhm. I don't do, I don't do the maximum. [speaker002:] How much do you probably [speaker001:] about a hundred and fifty. Okay chaps that's fine thank you very much that's er fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes! Yeah it zoomed through didn't it? Wow unbelievable.... It is according to my watch anyway.... [speaker002:] Well let's see what... [speaker001:] Still haven't got your coffee Steve. [sighing] God []! I'm gasping. There's some juice on the table. Yeah want some juice? Yeah I think I'll have to have a Here you are, that's a clean one. It's better than nothing.... [speaker002:] Can I go away and hide now?... [speaker001:] ... How was your journey this morning then? It was not too bad Alright was it? erm yeah, got stuck on the M ooh on the M twenty five for about thirty five, forty minutes, erm Heathrow was, the bit round was Heathrow was alright but it was Is that where the roadworks are? Yeah although in fact the roadworks were, were not slowing us down it was, it was the approach to the M three junction was, was really very bad but the erm the road the, the roadworks at Heathrow, we just sort of breezed through that. Oh. Oh that's right I got stuck there the other... the other day Well I was expecting to be when I got there. when we went to erm Brentwood erm tt to er Salisbury. Ah!... [speaker002:] I'm not really supposed to say anything about about my Grecian two thousand [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]...

[speaker001:] In your own minds, now, I want you to think of a famous building or a famous site or perhaps a famous street or avenue yes a a statue would be fine, erm or something that's famous, like an animal perhaps, or a park erm or a zoo, although that might be a bit difficult. You'll see why in a minute. I'd like you to think if I say building that will give you the idea. If you think of a famous building that you associate with London okay we are doing life in the city, we all live in London okay, think in your mind of a famous building for example Saint Paul's, what I want you to do, and we'll go round the class, is that I want you to describe yourself [speaker002:] Yourself? [speaker001:] Erm yes if you were that if you were that building [speaker002:] Oh [speaker001:] okay, pretend that you're that building and I want you to describe yourself and and I want the rest of the class to see if they can guess what it is and how long they take it they take to guess okay, and if you think you know what that person is, put your hand up don't don't shout out. So, for example, if I was doing... there's no writing involved, just a speaking thing. So for example if I was doing Saint Paul's I'd say right erm... erm... I'm a building in the City of London, very old, very big and extremely famous on of the most obvious things that really stand out about me is my very large domed roof with a little cross on top of it. Princess Diana and and Prince Charles were married in me. [speaker002:] Shorts [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, so then you'd guess that I was Saint Paul's Cathedral. Right I I've taken one of the more obvious ones. You needn't do that [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, no. [speaker001:] Do you think you can do it quite well? [speaker002:] Yeah, no, Yeah [speaker001:] you're looking a bit unsure. [speaker002:] Yeah, yes sir. [speaker001:] Don't you want to do it? [speaker002:] [scream] Yeah [] Open that window Sir, can I open that window, please? [speaker001:] Let's try it [speaker002:] Oh sir [speaker001:] The reas the reason [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Listen please. The reason why it's quite a good thing to do is because it gets you into descriptive language okay and thinking about how you describe things, adjectives are describing words. But take a little bit of time now to think of a building, or a thing, or a place or an animal or a street... Right [speaker002:] [hiccup] [speaker001:] Let's start with erm you got one? [speaker003:] I got one. [speaker001:] whose gotta good one? Yeah let's start again let's start with you. You gotta good one. Now if you think you know what building or place is, put your hand up, but I think what we'll do is actually let him get to the end of his description first. [speaker002:] What if somebody erm, erm thinks of one that somebody else has thought of [speaker001:] erm, now that's a good question In that case [speaker002:] describe it differently. [speaker001:] Well, you could describe it differently yes, or try and think of another one, all right, right let's start again. [speaker003:] I'm big, and I've gotta a hole in the middle of me all the lines and it's green all the best teams [speaker001:] No let him finish okay, we're gonna let him finish. [speaker003:] what am I? [speaker002:] I couldn't even hear that properly. [speaker001:] okay can we have it again, nice and clear could you close the door please for me please [speaker003:] Oh yeah an'I'm the best one in England. [speaker002:] I know. [speaker001:] Right,jus just do the first bit again. [speaker003:] I'm big an'I gotta hole in the middle [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You're big and you've got a hole in the middle and what's the next bit. [speaker003:] there's grass wiv lines on and whenever play games [speaker002:] [hiccup] [speaker003:] and whenever get somefink and I'm the best one in England. [speaker001:] Right, I think I know what it is and there's a forest of hands erm they know what it is. Erm right, Louisa, whatcha think building or thing is? [Louisa:] Wembley. [speaker001:] Wembley. Yep did everybody think that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, I did too. That was that was a good description then. I think the best in England gave it away and the lines in the grass. The hole in the middle was obviously [speaker002:] When you look down on top [speaker001:] When you look down, when you are seeing it in on the television pictures, you look down from an aerial view. Yeah, right, okay very good. Erm right erm let's have a lady now [speaker005:] Yeah, yeah I'm, I'm quite big, I used to do [LAUGHTER] They used to do ballet in me. They did Cinderella in me, erm [speaker002:] [hiccup] [speaker005:] erm I'm not a featre, I'm a library as well Erm.. [speaker002:] Oh, I know what it is. [speaker005:] Erm [speaker001:] Ssh, don't interrupt. [speaker005:] Erm I'm near a MacDonalds, erm I'm quite kinda [LAUGHTER] that's it. What am I? [speaker001:] All right, erm [speaker002:] [hiccup] [speaker001:] Erm [speaker006:] Erm, the Civic Centre. [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] Where, where's the Civic Centre [speaker002:] Old Kent Road. [speaker001:] Old Kent Road, okay, good. Erm, can we have yours please. [Tisha:] Right, I'm a place, erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No, there's no need to laugh of course she's a place, that's fine go on listen to her. [Tisha:] Erm got animals, erm got shops and things are expensive in there, you have to pay to get in, it's very big and its got aquari aquariums [speaker002:] Oh that's easy. [speaker001:] Anything else? [Tisha:] No. [speaker001:] No. Very good. [speaker002:] [hiccup] [speaker001:] Erm Daniel. [Daniel:] London Zoo. [Tisha:] Yeah. [speaker001:] London Zoo, Regents Park. [speaker002:] Buckingham Palace. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, erm let's have another boy, Stuart, nice and loud and clear [Stuart:] I'm a large place on the river bank [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Stuart:] I've got very expensive things in me. [speaker002:] Oh, I know. Don't have a heart attack [Stuart:] an'if somefink flew away I'd fall down. What am I? [speaker001:] What was that last bit? [speaker002:] I know what it is. [speaker001:] What was that last bit, Stuart? [Stuart:] If somefink flew away, I'd fall down. [speaker001:] If something flew away, I'd fall down. Claire [Clair:] Tower o'London. [Stuart:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is she right? She is. What do they say about the ravens? [speaker002:] if they flew away it would fall down. [speaker001:] Right, okay. Who's next? Katie. [speaker002:] I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very tall. Very well, Claire [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I think that was a dead give away that was. Right I, I, I'm a tall building, I've got a bell in me [speaker002:] A what? [speaker001:] every hour I ring out. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Big Ben. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Tall building with a bell in you? Yeah. Right, okay. [speaker002:] An'he rings every hour. [speaker001:] Right, who's got a good one. [speaker002:] Oh just [speaker001:] Louisa. [Louisa:] Nah, I've forgotten it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh, no. [Louisa:] Oh, no I haven't. [speaker001:] Go on then. [Louisa:] Right, I, I'm quite a small building, erm, I got scary stuff in me. [speaker002:] London Dun, London Dungeons Sir's house. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Thank you very much. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, London Dungeons. Right, okay go on then. [speaker002:] If you look upon me from an aerial view, I'm open. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes, thank you very much Year Seven, carry on Katie. [speaker002:] There's grass in me wiv lines on it. [speaker001:] I know what this is. This is a bit like but go on. [speaker002:] And erm a very good team play there and Arsenal won by the way. [clapping] [speaker001:] Not Millwall. I got one, I got one. [speaker002:] No, sir, I got one. [speaker001:] Erm erm I wanna think of one that isn't too easy. [speaker002:] No, sir, I've got one, I've got one that's not easy. [speaker001:] okay, okay, here's one. I am quite old, [speaker002:] How [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I used to generate lots of electricity. I'm by the river bank an'I've got four [speaker002:] I know, I know [speaker001:] great big towers which are painted an off white colour, an'I'm featured, an'I'm featured on the front of a very famous album by Pink Floyd. [speaker002:] Who? [speaker001:] Aha, you see you don't know this one do you [speaker002:] Oh, er. [speaker001:] Sarah Sarah 's hand was up first. [speaker003:] Banksides Power Station. [speaker001:] Banksides? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No. What's it called? Stuart. [Stuart:] Battersea Power Station. [speaker001:] I think, I think there is one at Bankside, but Battersea Power Station was the one I was thinking of. [speaker002:] I haven't done one yet. Let me do one. [speaker001:] Right, Yvette first, she's done one. [Louisa:] Right right, I'm erm very big, I'm like a football ground, but I'm not and erm lots of crickets have fallen on me before I'm near erm Kennington [speaker002:] I know, I know. [LAUGHTER] Please. [Louisa:] and Ian Botham is very popular in my in my place where I am [speaker002:] Please, Please. Please, please, sir. [speaker001:] Er all right I think you better ask him. [speaker002:] The Oval. [speaker001:] The Oval. [speaker002:] Sir, sir I got one. [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] I fought you said you [speaker001:] Have you done one, Stuart? Right which one best one go on. One more then we'll do something different. [speaker002:] I fought you said [speaker001:] Have you got one, Stuart. [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] Right, you have as well, which, which one of you's got the best one I wonder. Go on. [speaker003:] in me [speaker002:] What? [speaker003:] like a crystal [speaker002:] Oh, I know. [scream] [speaker001:] Le.. let's let's reach the [speaker003:] Er.... and yeah it's almost where [speaker002:] [scream] [speaker001:] I can't actually hear description. [speaker002:] [scream] [speaker001:] Hang on a minute, hang on [speaker002:] [whine] That's what he said. [speaker001:] Since when have Center Parcs been in London. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Stop, stop. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Listen, okay. What I want you to do now is tell me what you've been doing with Miss this week Tuesday. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Put your hands up please. Right, Sarah. [speaker003:] We've been erm talking about different transport and some poems erm... and we do like... what else. like [speaker001:] So you've done a transport poems [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Right, have you done advantages and disadvantages [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah No we ain't. [speaker001:] Erm I did some of that with you erm you've written to [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, I think what we are going to do having done you're doing most of your inner city stuff with Miss it now, an'I wanna give you some basic skills sheets [speaker002:] [whine] You said there's no writin'. [whine] All teachers are the same, that they go back on their word. [whine] Oh, please sir. [whine] ... [speaker001:] Right Sarah, could you share with Katie, and you two share as well Right, I wanna do something all together now okay, so you can't go right now Right. Okay Year Seven, Year Seven, I won't tell you again, you're being too noisy. Now, the sheet in front of you even if you've got a bundle of sheets is entitled Writing Dialogue, okay. Now, learning how to punctuate dialogue is not easy because there are a lot of things to remember and I want to see whether or not you can do this okay. So, first of all, look carefully at the sheets, and if you're sharing with somebody else, look at what you've got between you okay, and, Gemma, stop doing that now. You don't need to fiddle with your pens or clatter around with pencil cases, I want you to listen. Right, or rustle the paper even, you're not looking at it are you? Right, that's better. Writing dialogue, follow as I read please. You may think writing dialogue, recording the actual words people use is difficult, it's quite straightforward really. Look at the diagram and then try the exercise. I want you to have a look at that diagram and read it to yourself quietly now. Look at the labelling, which the rules, those labels being the rules for writing dialogue. Hold on a second please. Look at it carefully, you've gotta between you [speaker002:] Should I start it? [speaker001:] Don't start it just yet Has everybody read it? [speaker002:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] Right. I wanna do this together first of all before you write it yourself. Erm who can do the first sentence for me. [speaker002:] Oh what, change it? [speaker001:] Yeah. Take this pen, come out here. [speaker002:] On the board? All right. Make sure everyone can read it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I want you to write the exercise and now try this and see if you can do it. Here, I'll hold it for you. [speaker002:] thanks the the first line. [speaker001:] Yep, the first, the first sentence. [speaker002:] fullstops. [speaker001:] I know, you've gotta put all the punctuation in. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] The re, the rest, the rest of you look at this and see if he's right. quiet please... okay just do what you think's correct... Right, gimme the pen. Thank you. Erm next sentence, who wants to do it?... Don't correct anybody else's, you just do the sentence as you think it's right. [speaker002:] ... [hiccup] [cough]... [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Is anybody beginning to see some mistakes. [speaker002:] Yeah. I can see a mistake. should be a fullstop where [speaker001:] Right, next sentence please. [speaker002:] doctor. [speaker001:] Ethan. You all right? [speaker005:] Yes, sir. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm not really. [speaker002:] fullstops in. [speaker001:] Right. Right, next line. Erm Stuart. [speaker002:] You said line. [speaker001:] Well, I'll tell you later. [speaker002:] you get it all right. [hiccup] [speaker001:] Hold your breath. [speaker002:] That's a sentence... [speaker001:] That's the end of the sentence, is it? [Stuart:] Mm [speaker002:] It's not. Sir, I know finish Sir, you said line. [speaker001:] okay, sentence, sentence, I want to the end of the sentence. Can you do to the end of the sentence. Well, you write until you think that the sentence is finished. Well, if that's what you think, write it down... All right, Stuart. Leave it there and the pen. Now I'm gonna leave it there, 'cos one thing that's emerged is that even though you've had this sheet with the diagram to tell you how to do it, you can't do you can't do it yet. [speaker002:] I know [speaker001:] You can't write, you can't write in dialogue yet. So I'm just go through [speaker002:] Sir, I know what was going wrong. [speaker001:] with you the mistakes. I want you to pay attention. Then you can get a chance to do it again in your book. Now, first of all No, don't speak, just listen please listen that includes you. Right, one thing that you need when somebody speaks is inverted commas okay or speech marks, name, if you read it out aloud name ask the doctor, the inverted commas come here because name is somebody speaking and it tells you that somebody is speaking here, it says asks okay say asked. [speaker002:] Asked. [speaker001:] Say asked. [speaker002:] Asked Asked [speaker001:] It's not aksed, is it? Sometimes you say that. [speaker002:] Asked. [speaker001:] All right. [speaker002:] Asked. [speaker001:] Yvette, you say asked. [Louisa:] Asked. [speaker002:] Asked. [speaker001:] Gemma, say asked. [speaker006:] Aksed [speaker001:] Aksed. Say again. [speaker006:] Aksed. Aksed [speaker002:] Asked. [speaker001:] Asked. Georgina say asked. [Tisha:] Asked. [speaker001:] Ethan say asked. [speaker005:] Aksed [speaker001:] Say again. [speaker005:] A a aksed [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Victoria say asked. [speaker006:] Asked. Asked [speaker001:] Stuart. [Stuart:] Aksed, aksed. Asked. [speaker001:] Asked. [speaker002:] Asked. Asked, asked, asked. [speaker001:] okay, okay, all right year seven, that was just by the way. Right, name asked the doctor. Now the way he asks that is as a question. So, So, look,. Now as your sheet tells you and as you should know if you read it carefully, punctuation marks where someone is speaking come inside the inverted commas, so, the question mark is a type of punctuation, isn't it, obviously, so it comes within the inverted commas. okay? [speaker002:] Sir, there's somefink wrong there, 'cos she says Blenkinsop and it should be just Blenkinsop. [speaker001:] Yeah, there there are lots or mistakes, there are lots of mistakes all the way through [speaker002:] sir, do it. Start a new line if a new person is speaking. [speaker001:] Yes, well, we'll come to that. We haven't got to that yet. Sit tight for a moment and we'll get to it. Now, name question mark asked the doctor now that is the end a sentence, so we have a fullstop there. And we have a new line because [speaker002:] Somebody else is talking. [speaker001:] Somebody else is saying Blenkinsop so what I'm gonna do is rub this out [speaker002:] That's not fair [speaker001:] So, name asked the doctor fullstop, Blenkinsop..., Blenkinsop [speaker002:] Replied [speaker001:] Replied the patient... Blenkinsop replied the patient. Pardon, have you noticed something? [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] What? Yes, speech marks, what else have you noticed? [speaker002:] Comma. Comma or stop. [speaker001:] Where does the comma come? [speaker002:] after Blenkinsop [speaker001:] Yes, where else? It comes, the comma comes inside the inverted commas. What else have you noticed about the lines? [speaker002:] You start a new line when someone else is speaking. [speaker001:] Yeah, it does say that here. You start a new line every time a new person speaks. [Stuart:] They've all got capital letters. [speaker001:] What's all got capital letters, Stuart? [Stuart:] Well, the names an'that. [speaker001:] We know that names, we know that all names have to have capital letters. [speaker002:] An' [speaker001:] Everything in the speech marks has a capital letter to start it. Yes, that's right, or to put it the other way round, Sarah, whenever you start speech, whenever you start writing down what the wor the words somebody actually says, Louisa, Yvette, concentrate hard you always use a capital letter. okay. So, pardon and Blenkinsop and name all have capital letters. okay the n, b and the p. Name asked the doctor, Blenkinsop replied the patient, pardon, new person speaking I said Blenkinsop. Now, I've done that, you're gonna do the rest yourself in your books. [speaker002:] I need a new book. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker002:] Sir, I need a new book. [speaker001:] You've got your books haven't you? yes, go on. [speaker002:] Sir, can I have one 'cos [speaker001:] Good grief you've got through your books very quickly. okay I'll have to give you some paper actually. here's a book. [speaker002:] Sir, Sir can we do the diagram? Sir. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker002:] What do I? [speaker001:] No don't copy out the diagram, just do the exercise which starts like this [speaker002:] You mean this bit in the middle? [hiccup] [speaker001:] No. You know where it says now try this, I'd like you to do that exercise, putting in all the punctuation. Punctuating the speech. [speaker002:] What, re-write the passage that one? [speaker001:] Ye-es. Yes, it's this one. I've done the first bit for you. You, you carry on from where I've left off. Or, rather, include that, do that first, an'then finish it yourselves. You don't need to talk to do this. [speaker002:] Sir, you said [speaker001:] Yes, we are.

[speaker001:] What number are you dividing by if you? [Berkam:] If I'm halving by ten. The number. [speaker001:] Ah, right. Now, that sign which we call in maths, a divide sign or a share sign, doesn't mean halving it, right, it only means halving if you are dividing by what number? No, not quite. Well if I, if I have ten pounds for example and I want to halve it, what would the answer be? [Berkam:] half of ten [speaker001:] Mhm, five, what number what number have I divided by. [Berkam:] ten [speaker001:] No not ten, cos you see, ten divided by ten would be one wouldn't it?... So... If I do this, ten and I halve it and I get five, what number have I divided by? [Berkam:] One. [speaker001:] No, ten divided by one, I'll tell you is ten. Because you are saying how many ones go into ten. Let me write this down for you, ten divide by one is ten, because you are saying how many ones are in ten and the answer is ten, okay? Now when I said if you halved ten pounds and you get five, what number must go there? Any ideas? [Berkam:] five? [speaker001:] Then you'd are saying how many fives in ten, the answer is two. We know the answer is five [Berkam:] ten divide by two equals five. [speaker001:] Good. [Berkam:] Two. [speaker001:] That's right. Yes. two in there, okay. Now... that's called halving by dividing by two, that's halving. But when you see that divide sign, it's not always halving is is it? Were you halving here when we were dividing by what number. So that sign means divide by or a lot of school people talk about sharing by, sharing by, dividing by. Right, [clears throat] so over here then, do you think that's your final answer? Right okay. Erm... I wonder if you've remembered the short cut of this. Has anyone ever told you about moving the decimal point? [Berkam:] See we've done it all without decimal point on the calculator, and we never done. [speaker001:] Right, so we need to really think about all this from scratch don't you, mm, pity the others aren't here actually. Erm... right, okay, I'll tell you what, copy down onto there. Put, can you put a heading along there, decimals, decimals, if we can get you understanding this, you can help a few other people. [clears throat] Erm... Who are you logged in as? [Berkam:] My name. [speaker001:] Right. Move down on to the second page then. Oh it's S F O nine, yes. So we select it, now do page down, Danny. Now it's going to the main menu. That'll be all right now. okay?... Right,, what we'll do is we'll get you thoroughly understanding this and you might be able to help the others. All right?... You want to space this out so space it out. Suppose we've got... this decimal here... now, can you tell me what have we got two of, what have we got two of?.... We've got things like tens, millions, millionths, tenths, tens, what is it that we've got two of. Sorry. [Berkam:] Forty-nine. [speaker001:] Forty-nine? Why do you say forty-nine? [Berkam:] cos there's another one there. [speaker001:] Right, we've got forty-nine there haven't we, but here there's a two, okay? Now what is it that we've got two of?... Well, let me give you a clue. Erm... this here is forty, that's four tens, four tens are forty. They're tens, four tens are forty. What is it that we've got nine of here?... Think... What is it that we've got er nine of?... [Berkam:] Nine? [speaker001:] Er well I think I'll have to show you. These are ones here, you see that's saying we've got four tens, forty, and then we've got nine ones, so that's how we get forty-nine. Now if we go to the right of the decimal point, are these... bigger things or smaller. [Berkam:] They're smaller. [speaker001:] They're smaller things, good. Now what is it that have got two of? Tens, ones, smaller than ones? [Berkam:] Nought. [speaker001:] Not nought... I can understand why you said nought. [Berkam:] half [speaker001:] Aah, they're fractions, aren't they. They're fractions. Danny it's just occurred to me because we're tape recording we'd better just stop print just at the moment, we'll just leave that off line we can do it later. Erm.... [Berkam:] halves [speaker001:] Right, now you're thinking it's fractions, tiny, smaller things. Erm but we, we've got to tens and tenths, hundreds and hundredths, thousands and thousandths, so it's not halves, but it's... [Berkam:] Quarters. [speaker001:] No, not quarters. [Berkam:] fractions [speaker001:] It's a decimal system, it's what we call a decimal system, decimals. It's all centered around tens and tenths, hundreds and hundredths, right, so what's the first fraction that you put here then?... Just use ones and zeros, you can't use anything else. [Berkam:] Ones and zeros. [speaker001:] Ones and zeros. Can't have a quarter, cos there's a four there, can't have a half, cos there's a two there. [Berkam:] One. [speaker001:] One, but we want a fraction... One over... what's the bottom number going to be? [Berkam:] Nought. [speaker001:] Not nought. Ten. [Berkam:] Ten. [speaker001:] These are tenths, yes. tenths. okay? and then what are these?... Getting smaller, but you can only use ones and noughts... [Berkam:] Nine [speaker001:] You can't have a nine, only ones and noughts. [Berkam:] Erm... [speaker001:] Right, you've never, I don't think you been shown this have you really? [Berkam:] thousand. [speaker001:] Right, good, only can have ones and noughts. Now, if we go on, what would the next one be. How many zeros? [Berkam:] Erm... [speaker001:] One, two, three... [Berkam:] Five. [speaker001:] One, two, three... why did you suddenly leap up to five [Berkam:] One, two, three, four. [speaker001:] Four. Yes, that's right... Next one. Right. How do we say these things [Berkam:] Hundreds. [speaker001:] Hundredths. [Berkam:] Hundredths. [speaker001:] Yes. This is thousandths, yes. How do we say this one? [Berkam:] Ten thousandths. [speaker001:] Well done. Now, can you just say it again? Ten... [Berkam:] Ten thousandths. [speaker001:] Yes, you've got to put a th on the end. Ten thousandths. Right. One ten thousandth. And then this one... [Berkam:] A hundred thousandths [speaker001:] Well done, yes, a hundred thousandths. Yes, that's right. And then I haven't got space now, but here you'd have a millionth, six noughts that'd been a million. Right, now that's what a decimal is a decimal is, that's what a decimal is, and there are some people think we should write them like this, or you couldn't, you couldn't do this. It's nice just to see it once, that er really... that nine should be written smaller and then that two should be even smaller still, and that three should almost be unreadable because those things are smaller and smaller aren't they, as you go along there, these are getting tinier and tinier. Right now... [Berkam:] nice and quiet [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes Erm [] [speaker003:] You don't have a lighter by any chance, do you? [speaker001:] I'm afraid I don't smoke. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] Sorry. [speaker003:] It's all right, I just wanted to see whether this little boy is concussed or not. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] He's had a terrific bang on the back of his head and... [speaker001:] Yes [Berkam:] I don't know, that's the old time honoured way of doing it, isn't it? [speaker001:] Oh, right [speaker003:] Oh [speaker001:] has an ambulance been called then? [speaker003:] No, he doesn't want to go home. [speaker001:] Is he feeling all right? [speaker003:] Yes, but it hurts when he turns his head. He's got ever such you know a lump on the back of the head. I think he needs looking at. I've told him to go and sit quietly. [speaker001:] Right, how's he up here then. Why is he up here? [speaker003:] Well, cos I'm Florence Nightingale. [speaker001:] Hah cos I bet, yeah where is he? [speaker003:] Danny, come here a minute love. [Berkam:] He doesn't want to go home [speaker003:] Yeah, I did. [speaker001:] ... Right. Thank you [LAUGHTER] right now a really clever thing then that you should know about is if I want to times that number by ten right. Everything in it will get ten times bigger won't it... Right, and this is why the short cut works, because a really clever way of timesing that by ten is to make that number come here, that number come there, this number come here, right, this number come here, and this number come here. We move every number, promote each number, make it go higher, right then we've multiplied that number by ten haven't you. Yeah. [Berkam:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now, look what's happened to the point. goes after the nine there, but it's now after the... [Berkam:] Two. [speaker001:] Two. So some people like to think that the point has moved one place to the right. What's really happened is that all the numbers have moved one place to the left. Right, but it's easier to see the point moving than the numbers really. So the quick way, then, of doing these decimals is just to move the move the point. Yeah? Now, if you're doing a divide, you want to demote all the numbers, don't you. You want to put them one down. Yes. So, if you're doing a divide, you want instead of four tens, you just want that to be four ones, don't you? So, if you're doing a divide, the four will go there, the nine will go there, the two will go there, the three will go there, and the four will go there. So look what's happened to the point. It was after the nine, but now it's after the four [Berkam:] Four. [speaker001:] So that divided forty-nine point two three four by ten and it's as if I've moved the point one place back. You understand? [cough] Have you met this before? [Berkam:] Not this way. [speaker001:] No. It's interesting isn't it. cos you're Year Nine now, and I would have thought somewhere along the line that you'd met this. Right. Well, I'll tell you what then Erm How about you... constructing your own worksheet on this. Would you like to? [speaker004:] It's all right. [speaker001:] On the computer and then you can actually do this. All right? okay? Erm so do you want to log in perhaps over there, log in over there, erm and I'll show you what to do and then what, the sheet you do you right, we'll produce for other people, couldn't we. Right, so, rather than me just do some boring stuff there. All right?... Just okay... Right... So if you log in now I think we... will go into Word, right, we'll do this in Word, all right, Word for Windows... so connect to network... Log in as you. Oh, before we go any further, yes, sorry, no, you're right... Liam can you make sure that computer's on please that one. Otherwise, oh, it's just the monitor that's off is it?... It's just that otherwise when we choose the printer, we erm... can I just see your screen, Liam. That's it, press when it comes up connect to network press return, we must get beyond connect to network. All right? Now, hold on, we'll just choose the printer before we go any further... Can you just put the printer off line, Liam. [Berkam:] How do you do that? [speaker001:] Just press the top button... Right, we'll select S S F O nine, select printer. Right? [Berkam:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Page down. Yeah, takes you to the end of this menu and we can return to the main menu, and er we won't er have to select printer again will we [Berkam:] That's what I did. sir [speaker001:] Did you? That's why space [Berkam:] I've saved it on. [speaker001:] You did. Oh good.... Right, word full stop word... Erm... right, press return a few times then choose centering button and table, insert table, and now we're going to have a table whe where I thought we could have a number and it can either be times or divide by something and then the answer, so we want how many columns? [Berkam:] Three. [speaker001:] Three so number of columns three, and I'm not quite sure how many rows we want, how many questions we get on a page but perhaps try for thirty something like that, okay okay, now table isn't showing, go to view, oh, go to tables sorry table and you see grid lines is not clicked so click on grid lines, and if the table doesn't show that's usually why. Erm... right, word in there decimals in capitals decimal [Berkam:] How'd you spell decimal [speaker001:] [spelling] D E C I M A L []... And then... well you're still in that put your mouse on there. Erm... how strange... Oh, I know what's happened, you've still got the centering icon going so it's centering these. Erm... multiply or divide by, multiply or divide by... M... [spelling] M U L T I P L Y [] space, space or [Berkam:] Or? [speaker001:] Yes do it small or, do it small letters... space, space, then divide. [speaker005:] Mr there's a telephone call for you. [speaker001:] Do you know who it's from? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker001:] okay [LAUGHTER]... [speaker005:] What you doing young man? Oh, right. What you doing Danny? Oh, I see. Is this on now? Right. And what are you doing? [Berkam:] How do you spell divide, miss? [speaker005:] Divide? What's it start with? [Berkam:] D [speaker005:] Right [Berkam:] I [speaker005:] Mm. [Berkam:] I. [speaker005:] D, right, now what d'you put on the end that makes an I sound I, the magic... [Berkam:] E [speaker005:] Right. okay. Divide, that's right, no. Multiply or Divide with an e on the end What goes in the end column. What goes in the end column after you've got decimal multiply or divide? On here. Have you done this one, Danny? [speaker004:] What's that, miss? [speaker005:] What goes in this end column, here? [speaker004:] Erm... I think it's the equals I dunno but [speaker005:] Have you done this one? [speaker004:] Don't think so. [speaker005:] Have you done this one, David? [David:] Erm... [speaker005:] What about matey over there. Have you done this one? What goes in this end column here? Decimal, multiply, divide... [speaker004:] I dunno [speaker005:] Might be answer, miss. Did Mr tell you and you've forgotten. [Berkam:] No. [speaker005:] Right, well, you'd better wait, ah here he comes [speaker001:] Mr 's on the 'phone. [speaker005:] Mr, oh, lovely, right that's Danny's dad. Right, okay. I couldn't tell what to put in that end column. [speaker001:] Ah, right, right, okay. [speaker004:] Sir, it is alright if I do that art quiz, while I'm waiting to print off my work? [speaker001:] Yes, yes, okay. Right, Erm... multiply and divide by, put the word by, okay and then erm answer A N, yes capitals, [spelling] A N S W E R [] Good, now we've printed this come out with grid lines, we got to format it so what we do is table, select table yes,, select table, select Tables, er... undo table, yes it's a very useful facility. If you make a mistake with Word, right, then you can always undo it, right, if you ever make a mistake don't panic cos you can always undo it but you only get the one chance if you go on working then you can't undo it. So what we do is erm... your your cursor must be in the table somewhere, so you then go up to table, select table, then you've got to format, border, and grid... so we want the grid lines to show then in fact you can chose what we want for the outside border one of these...... Right,... okay... Now what I want you to do is set the questions, right? Now, what we'll do is this... Erm... Get into your table and put a decimal there, now you can choose, I don't mind what you have, right? so you're going to do some like that right. Here you're going to tell people what to multiply and divide by. Now, don't make it too difficult, the big problem with kids sett setting sheets they that they make it far harder than the teacher ever would so do don't be over ambitious, let's have a few easy ones to start with, right. You leave that blank, because that's where they are going to put the answer. Right? [Berkam:] Can I put any number like four, three point whatever? [speaker001:] Yeah, you can choose any decimal, it doesn't have to even start with numbers, cos it could start with zero, it doesn't, doesn't have, doesn't have, it doesn't have to be bigger than one, it can be smaller than one. okay? Now just so that they see whether to times or divide we've got to tell them, it's no good just putting a ten there is it I've got to say it's a times or divide okay? So, what I would suggest is... erm... times is easy because you can just use an x for times small x I think. Leave some space there I think, you need to make a space, that looks good. The silly thing is there is no divide on here and... the only thing I can suggest really, there is a divide symbol in the computer that we can drag out but to drag it out every time it's too boring really so I'll think we use this I don't like using this, but you see this symbol here, that's what they really use for divide, so if you do that and a couple spaces, people will learn that that means divide, it's all we can do really Or we could if we could be bothered we could write the word divide. [Berkam:] In this box here? [speaker001:] All right? [Berkam:] Sir, could I a... a million. [speaker001:] Yes, you can have millions if you want it. Yes. Erm... this first two we'd tell people the answers to, so what answer would this one be that times by ten and all that happens. All that happens when we times by ten is that the point moves one place to the right, so what will be the answer can you tell me the answer to that one? [Berkam:] Will it be twenty-three nine point eight seven. [speaker001:] How do you say that number? [Berkam:] Twenty... erm two hundred and firty-nine point eight seven. [speaker001:] Good, well done. This one [clears throat] is a bit tricky for a second question, I think I might revise this actually. Erm... made this a bit too hard to start with. One like that, you see we'd have to move the point two places to the left, so we'll have to introduce another zero. [Berkam:] Yeah, I I've done that. [speaker001:] You've done that. Now let's get sheet. Right, now, what erm what would the answer be here [Berkam:] That would be thirty-four... four... er point seven one eight. [speaker001:] Right now you've only moved the point once. [Berkam:] Oh, [speaker001:] so what will the answer be? [Berkam:] It'll be three point [speaker001:] Good. well done [Berkam:] this is simple [speaker004:] Sir, I can't get into Windows. [speaker001:] Right, I'll come and help you. Erm... would you like to carry on with that? [Berkam:] Put all the answers in? [speaker001:] No, we'll leave those for the people to put in. You just set the questions. Right, David, what's the problem? [David:] It won't go into Windows. [speaker001:] Erm... [speaker007:] [reading] What's that a gun. No [] [speaker008:] Hugh. [speaker007:] [reading] That's a rocket calling out to the crew of the lifeboat, but it's a lovely day. There's no wind and a boat can not be in danger. I know, but that they are [] [speaker008:] There are. [speaker007:] [reading] there are ships [] [speaker008:] Sharp. [speaker007:] [reading] sharp rocks just under the water and a [] [speaker008:] S [speaker007:] [reading] sailing boat might have been cor [] [speaker008:] Car [speaker007:] [reading] carried on by the tre [] [speaker008:] Ti [speaker007:] [reading] tide [] [speaker008:] That's it. [speaker007:] [reading] My dad, my dad's on the lifeboat. Let's go down and watch it go out. [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker009:] [reading] The two boys raced down the harbour, when [] [speaker008:] Where. [speaker009:] [reading] where the crew were [] [speaker008:] Gathering. [speaker009:] [reading] gathering. There's my dad. Hello, boys, a fishing boat has br [] [speaker008:] Broken. [speaker009:] [reading] broken down and we're going out to tow [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker009:] [reading] them in. When [] [speaker008:] Wan [speaker009:] [reading] Want to come for the run. There [speaker008:] There's [speaker009:] [reading] There's room and it won't be dangerous. [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker004:] Are you with me? [speaker009:] [reading] Yes please. [] [speaker008:] [whispering] Come on. [] [speaker009:] [reading] Su [] [speaker008:] Super. [speaker009:] [reading] Super. Once they were cl [] [speaker004:] Sorry [speaker008:] Clear. [speaker009:] [reading] Clear of the harbour, Ron's farver took them to see the [] [speaker008:] Eng [speaker009:] [reading] Engines. [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker009:] [reading] Twin [] [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker009:] [reading] Dis [] [speaker008:] Diesels, twin diesels. [speaker009:] [reading] Diesels. They are [] [speaker008:] Sealed. [speaker009:] [reading] sealed so that they can work even if follo [speaker008:] Flo [speaker009:] Flooded. [speaker008:] if flooded, that's it. [speaker009:] [reading] with water. There even [] [speaker008:] There, there's enough [speaker009:] [reading] Enough power to keep the boat going, as fas... [] [speaker008:] At [speaker009:] [reading] As full [] [speaker008:] At [speaker009:] [reading] At full speed even in the s [] [speaker008:] Stro [speaker009:] [reading] strongest gale [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker009:] They [speaker008:] The. [speaker009:] [reading] Then they say, saw the [] [speaker008:] Search. [speaker009:] [reading] Search lights [] [speaker008:] Search lights [speaker009:] [reading] At the loud [] [speaker008:] Loud. [speaker009:] [reading] Loud hil [] [speaker008:] Hailer. [speaker009:] [reading] Hailer and the V H F radio, with which the crew can keep in touch with airc aircr [] [speaker008:] Aircraft. [speaker009:] [reading] Aircraft and helicopter [] [speaker008:] Well done. [speaker009:] [reading] Half an hour later, Ron pop [] [speaker008:] Po po point. [speaker009:] [reading] Pointed to a boat dead a [] [speaker008:] That's it dead ahead. [speaker009:] [reading] Dead ahead. It was the o [] [speaker008:] Oak leaf [speaker009:] Oak leaf It was the Oak Leaf [reading] A loc [] [speaker008:] Local. [speaker009:] [reading] Local fishing boat which the lifeboat had came out to helped him [] [speaker008:] Don't forget the full stop. [speaker009:] [reading] Ten minutes later there were close even [] [speaker008:] Enough. [speaker009:] [reading] Enough to use the rocket pi [] [speaker008:] Pi.. pi.. pistol [speaker009:] Pistol [speaker008:] That's it. [speaker009:] [reading] it's that [] [speaker008:] Threw. [speaker009:] [reading] Threw a line across to see the fishing [] [speaker008:] Across to the fishing [speaker009:] [reading] Fishing boat and the fisherman was there [] [speaker008:] Were then [speaker009:] [reading] Were then at [] [speaker008:] Able. [speaker009:] [reading] Able to put a [] [speaker008:] Pull [speaker009:] [reading] a har [] [speaker008:] Heavy. [speaker009:] [reading] Heavy turn [] [speaker008:] tow. [speaker009:] [reading] Tow rope on boat. [] [speaker008:] Board. [speaker009:] Board. [speaker008:] They were able to pull a heavy tow rope on board. [speaker009:] [reading] Only it [] [speaker008:] Once. [speaker009:] [reading] Once it had been tri [] [speaker008:] Tied. [speaker009:] [reading] Tied strong [] [speaker008:] Well it could be, but it's securely. [speaker009:] [reading] Securely. [] [speaker008:] Once it had been tied securely. [speaker009:] [reading] The captain of the fishing boat waved his hand and the [] [speaker008:] Powerful. [speaker009:] [reading] Powerful engine of the lifeboat [] [speaker008:] R roared. [speaker009:] [reading] Roared into life. It was just in time too as both boats were drifting slowly to [] [speaker008:] Towards. [speaker009:] [reading] Towards some sharp rocks [] [speaker008:] Funny how you go through a line like that beautifully, isn't it. You know, really well. [speaker009:] [reading] Wish [] [speaker008:] While. [speaker009:] [reading] While this was going on, Ron and Her [] [speaker008:] Hugh. [speaker009:] [reading] Hugh were call [] [speaker008:] Care ful [speaker009:] [reading] Careful to stay out of the way. On the run back to the harbour, Ron's dad asked, did you enjoy that, boys [] [speaker008:] Well read. [speaker009:] [reading] Yes, can we join the crew of the lifeboat when we grow up [] [speaker008:] Well done, so you haven't done that card before? [speaker009:] No. [speaker008:] I drew up the list, you've got it written in there. So we'll do the questions now. Go through them... [speaker009:] Question one. [speaker008:] Question one. The noise Hugh heard was a [speaker009:] Rocket, gun, backfire, rocket. [speaker008:] So the answer to A, is one A. [speaker009:] Rocket. [speaker008:] Rocket. You keep that writing up like you done that it'll look lovely on that page. [speaker009:] R O C K E T [speaker008:] K E T. Right, that's good. [reading] To get to the harbour the boys A [speaker009:] Raced, cycled,sa [speaker008:] Sailed. [speaker009:] A. They raced. [speaker008:] Yes, they raced, because you can remember that from what it says here. Good. Number 3. [reading] The lifeboats' engines are sealed [] [speaker009:] [sniff] To get more power [speaker008:] To give more power [speaker009:] [reading] So they work if flooded. So they used less fu [] [speaker008:] Fuel. [speaker009:] [reading] Fuel. I fink it's so they worked if flooded [] [speaker008:] You're dead right. B. It's good, you see, that you're remembering what you've read. It's all very well to read through something, but the main part about it is to remember what you've read. [speaker009:] if flooded F L O O D [sniff] E D [speaker008:] Flooded, that's right. [speaker009:] Question four [speaker008:] Four. [reading] In bad weather the lifeboat [] [speaker009:] Has to stop, can only go slowly can go as [speaker008:] At. [speaker009:] [reading] At full speed. I think it's C. [speaker008:] You're dead right. [speaker009:] Can go [sniff] at full speed. S P E E D [speaker008:] That's right. Number five. [reading] A line was thrown by [] [speaker009:] A catapult, a fisherman, a rocket per [speaker008:] Pi... pi. [speaker009:] Pistol. I fink it's C. Rocket pistol. [speaker008:] So do I. I don't think they had a catapult out there. [speaker009:] A rocket... [speaker008:] Pistol. That's right, now you've only got one. Let's see if you can get the hundred per cent. [reading] At the end of the trip, the boys [] [speaker009:] [reading] Wanted to go home, felt sick, wanted to join the crew [] C wanted to join the crew. [speaker008:] That's it. Hundred per cent. Wanted [speaker009:] to [speaker008:] To join the crew. And that is very neatly done. Now [clears throat] we'll see if we can find out these words, and then we'll write them in, write the answers in. So it'll start off with one, but you remember, we do it across the page. That's it. So you just start off with number one. And we are trying to find a word which means men, we're finding the word in the story, which means men who sail in boats [speaker009:] It's number three. [speaker008:] Yes. Thank you. Men who sail in boats in number three. [speaker009:] [reading] No Hu [] [speaker008:] Hugh [speaker009:] [reading] Hugh. That's a rocket calling out the crew, crew [] [speaker008:] That's the word. Crew. [spelling] C R E W [] That's one, now number two is another word for pushed. Pushed, in number five, in chapter, and that's in paragraph five. [speaker009:] [reading] I know, but there are sharp rocks just under the water and a sa [] [speaker008:] Sailing. [speaker009:] [reading] Sailing boat [] [speaker008:] Might. [speaker009:] [reading] Might have been [] [speaker008:] Carried. [speaker009:] [reading] Carried [] Is that it? [speaker008:] It is. You're right, it's another word for pushed, you see, in this story. It could, because you could put and a sailing boat might have been pushed on by the tide. But it, was, it's more correct to say carried on, but that's another meaning okay? Number three ran quickly. Well we know what that is. Don't we. Because I think we've already said, we've already put it in two A. [speaker009:] Raced. [speaker008:] Yes, they raced. Two boys raced. So you got the same answer for two questions. Four. Coming together. They're coming together. That's also in six, oh well then so the two boys raced down the harbour [speaker009:] With the [speaker008:] Where the [speaker009:] [reading] Where the crew were gath [] [speaker008:] Gathering. [speaker009:] [reading] Gathering [] [speaker008:] That's it. So they're coming together. The word is gathering. Can you get it in there. [speaker009:] G. [speaker008:] [spelling] G A T H E R I N G [] [speaker009:] Yep. [speaker008:] Just. That's it. Gathering. That's good. [reading] Filled with water [] Another word to cover the words filled with water. And you've got to come down to eleven for that. [speaker009:] [reading] Only [] [speaker008:] We'll read it from here. [speaker009:] [reading] They are certain [] [speaker008:] [reading] Sealed [] [speaker009:] [reading] Sealed so that they can work even if flooded [] [speaker008:] Well done. As soon as you get to the word, you know it. [speaker009:] [spelling] F L O O D E D [] [speaker008:] And you know how to spell it. [speaker009:] cos it's there [speaker008:] Oh, that's all right. Doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Six [reading] very powerful torches [] okay, if you'd been in the war, you know what the answer to that was. Very powerful torches in eleven. Erm, start there. [speaker009:] [reading] They.. then [] [speaker008:] Then. [speaker009:] [reading] They saw the sec [] [speaker008:] What's that. [speaker009:] [reading] Oh,sear [] [speaker008:] Search. [speaker009:] [reading] Search lights [] [speaker008:] That's a very powerful torch, isn't it. [speaker009:] S [speaker008:] That's a long word... [spelling] C H L I G H T S [] That's it, well done. Erm that's powerful torches, seven [reading] showed with a finger []. I think I know what that is and that's in twelve. Showed with a finger erm... Showed with a finger... oh, crumbs, oh yes, look it's in the first line. [speaker009:] [reading] Half an hour later, Ron prom [] [speaker008:] Poin [speaker009:] [reading] pointed [] [speaker008:] With a finger. Pointed. [speaker009:] [spelling] P O []... [spelling] I N T E D [] Pointed. Number eight, tightly. Another word for tightly and that's also in twelve. Erm I think you can start reading here. writing Erm... [speaker008:] Once [speaker009:] [reading] Once it had been tied [] [speaker004:] That's fine, we'll do, we'll do, Paul Paul listen, don't be distracted. [speaker010:] We'll do the functions of building afterwards, okay. At the moment we're doing what buildings are made of. Right. Stone, brick, mud, what else could they use? I've got a classic one, why did London burn down in 1600s, because all the houses were made of? [speaker004:] Look, look, you're [speaker010:] No, I'm not, I'm helping you understand [speaker004:] I'm on about [speaker010:] Listen listen to me. You can't talk about present day, right. [speaker004:] I'm not on about that, I'm not on about that. [speaker010:] Until you understand [speaker004:] I'm not on about houses I'm on about main buildings like St Paul's an'all that [speaker010:] Yeah, but the old churches were made of wood and stone it's important to think about that [speaker004:] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker010:] You know what I mean [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, yeah [speaker010:] A lot of the buildings in London are hundreds and hundreds of years old. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, yeah [speaker010:] We'll do types of in a minute so wood, mud, brick stone, anything else, marble erm wood, mud, brick, stone [speaker004:] copper [speaker010:] no they didn't build metal houses did they? yeah but that's roofs that's not a structure is it. I know structures, will you write bridges too [speaker004:] bridges [speaker010:] iron, iron bridges, I reckon that's a good start. Okay now this is materials, modern materials, okay, right tell me some of the things they make buildings out of now really big [speaker004:] glass [speaker010:] Yeah, good one Paul glass what else, what else they make them out of [speaker004:] Metal [speaker010:] Metals. Erm reinforced concrete big one for the sixties. Reinforced concrete. What about prefabs, what are they made of? [speaker004:] Prefabs? Fibreglass? [speaker010:] board. erm what else did they make them out metals, glass, reinforced concrete [speaker004:] I mean like office blocks like that over there all that that crap [speaker010:] They still use brick don't they? [speaker004:] Yeah, they still use bricks. [speaker010:] Cos that whole building is like looks like metal and er glass though doesn't it? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker010:] I think glass, metal, reinforced concrete, fibre glass, brick are about it, can't think what else they make a building out of these days So we've done our materials, let's do our... what sort of buildings did they make. What, what were the buildings. What are we talking about. We are talking about houses. [speaker004:] buildings. [speaker010:] okay, we're talking about institutions and what comes under institutions? [speaker004:] apartments [speaker010:] institutions, schools anything paid for by the government, government buildings like you said, like town halls, libraries, theatres [speaker004:] yeah [speaker010:] What is a really important part of London architecture? What is there on every corner? No, building on every corner, which you can go in and have a jar? [speaker004:] Public houses. [speaker010:] Pubs are a really important. I did a seminar on pub architecture. Excellent, do you know what my research was? [speaker004:] No. [speaker010:] I had to go to lots of pubs, [speaker004:] Oh great. [speaker010:] Pubs really good one for London. Erm what else? Schools, government buildings, libraries, theatres, pubs, houses, what else did they build? Oh I know churches, what else? What other old important buildings can you think of in London. I can think of a really good one, Buckingham [speaker004:] Mm. monarchy buildings [speaker010:] what about so yeah royal buildings or palaces. Palaces, what's another big palace, one of the oldest buildings in London just off Tower Bridge, it's called the [speaker004:] Tower of London. [speaker010:] That's right, the Tower of London is a palace, the king used to live there. Palaces. What else? Right, let's do some modern buildings. What do they build these days? Let's put uses and give me some different ones. When they build these days, they build one really obvious one which Canary Wharf is [speaker004:] office [speaker010:] Office block. They build office blocks. What else do they build Paul, prisons. I've thought of a really good one, factories. Those old weird factories, with metal windows and not much light. Wharves, wharves for storing grain on the river, wharves. What are wharves these days turned into. [speaker004:] apartments [speaker010:] Luxury flats. So that's a good one [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Put wharf here. Put wharves and put erm what was the other one I said? Factories. And then you can put over here office blocks, flats, they didn't have flats pre sixties not till thought of it. That's really important write down [speaker004:] What [speaker010:] This guy, this guy right, this French guy okay in the twenties and the thirties yeah okay this guy and he invented the idea okay [speaker004:] of towers. [speaker010:] He invented the idea of communal living like flats okay and everyone was supposed to be the same. It was like communism everyone was supposed to be the same, everyone would have the same house, with the same shed, everyone would have the same stuff in their house, all their doors would be colour co-ordinated and that's what flats were, the original idea of flats were like co-ordinated living okay. [speaker004:] This is great, this is tremendous [speaker010:] But it doesn't work like that does it, cos what happens in flats. [speaker004:] People change all their things. [speaker010:] Exactly, people stick on big oak doors don't they. [speaker004:] People cook fish [speaker010:] People cook fish and irritate each other because they live too [speaker004:] Close and it is unnatural for people to live too close. [speaker010:] Ah ha, but in the old days they used to have [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] balconies [] [speaker010:] In the old days they used to have little houses close together called begins with T [speaker004:] tensions [speaker010:] Tenements [speaker004:] Tenements [speaker010:] Which are like your back to back. My grandmother, right, had a back to back... No listen, this is funny, she lived in a tenement in er which isn't there anymore actually just up by the river, up by the Angel, and there was nine people living there in two rooms and they had a lodger and the lodger, so they did have [speaker004:] My grandad used to live in Char Charles Dickens's house. [speaker010:] Did he? [speaker004:] Yeah not there anymore. He had fourteen, his grandmother there was seventeen of them. [speaker010:] My God, well, I've got to at like, quarter to. Right we've got half an hour so right what else do they build which they never used to build.. We build office blocks, we build flats, we build [speaker004:] They re re re thingy re-furbish [speaker010:] They renovate. [speaker004:] Renovate. [speaker010:] That's good refurbishment, renovate, good lad, renovation [speaker004:] Of old [speaker010:] Yes, this is a very key key point. Okay so they base, we're talking about style now [speaker004:] Oh yeah wait, wait, wait a minute, let's put this. [speaker010:] Well, put these ideas over. Let's do this. I'll remember that idea for you. Office blocks, flats, they renovate places, what else do they do, what do we build. What's this school is it new? They build colleges and universities, educational buildings and many more. What do we have that we didn't used to have? [speaker004:] Supermarkets no, no. [speaker010:] Yes, no, that's important. Supermarkets, like shopping malls. [speaker004:] Oh yeah. [speaker010:] Arcades, what are they called? Shopping centres. Shopping centres, we're doing it together that's good. Office blocks, shopping centres, universities, new flats, renovated flats, office blocks, office blocks, they don't really build churches much anymore cos they don't need them, erm what else do they build? [speaker004:] hostels for the young [speaker010:] Yeah, hostels, hostels as opposed to hotels. [speaker004:] Oh, yeah. Hotels. [speaker010:] Youth hostels. you see the thing is Paul what you I could help you do is there are several modern buildings round here which we could investigate. There is the youth hostel and I know who built that cos he's a friend of mine. [speaker004:] Oh, so he just like built did he? [speaker010:] No, built that and I know the guy so I could get to the plans. They were but it's the recession and no-one's building at the moment. Erm right what you were talking about, just leave that. We've got a basis for our knowledge haven't we. We realize that, right, now how is style okay what a building looks like related to [speaker004:] They're based on fings aren't they? [speaker010:] How is style related to use cos the thing is it is really glib I think to say modern architecture's crap. [speaker004:] I should go to the design museum. [speaker010:] Ancient architecture's beautiful, you should. Design museum doesn't have a lot on architecture though. So style what you were talking about when they base ideas, just concentrate on what you are doing cos you're doing some good work you know when they base ideas on the past, that is looking back, yeah, like see this word retro, going back, right. So retrospective, when you are a spectator, what are you doing? [speaker004:] Looking. [speaker010:] Right, so spective is looking, retro is back, so retrospective so there's some styles, some modern art is retrospective. okay, it looks back. That's one new word for you. Think of a piece of modern architecture that, I think, personally, is all retrospective, I think everything built on the achievement of the past yeah... I don't know, what is the actual question? What is the actual question she gave you? [speaker004:] It ain't a question, it's my own study. [speaker010:] Your own study, and how are making this media studies how is architecture media studies? [speaker004:] Argument. It's just s' posed to be an argument but this will lead to up, like an argument of like them kind of buildings, are not like buildings, like tradition, to keep with the tradition. [speaker010:] So you wanna look at Prince Charles' book don't you. Prince Charles' book, you wanna think about this guy Le Corbusier [speaker004:] I'll have to go to the library for that. [speaker010:] Think about this guy, I might have stuff on him, about flats and what they are for. What are they for? Erm... Shh... Hang on. Think about this idea this word building okay. Cos you've got a building and then you've got the idea of building on past knowledge and experience. There's a good, there's good language games you can play with that, because modern architecture builds in a way on the architecture of the past, cos that Canary Wharf... is actually, what's on top of it? [speaker004:] A pyramid. [speaker010:] and when were the pyramids built? [speaker004:] I dunno last week weren't it? [speaker010:] In Egypt, do you see what I mean, so that you can have and put that down as an example, so you can have. You've got a pyramid on top of Canary Wharf, so that is classical reference [speaker004:] Yeah, [cough], I know, I know what you mean [speaker010:] So if you can think about it like laterally but we gonna have to work out an argument What we wanna do is think of some buildings and describe them to ourselves and then work out what style, cos the thing is since the 1960s, styles like we want, like a progression of styles till the 1990s and see what's changed and what's stayed. Last lesson. [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker010:] Where, where, what have you got last lesson? [speaker004:] technology [speaker010:] Tomorrow. What have you got tomorrow? What have you got first lesson. Mrs,, Miss English what about, next lesson, second lesson [speaker004:] Yeah, it's all, don't worry about it. [speaker010:] No what have you got? No, but what have you got? [speaker004:] Nothing important. [speaker010:] No, but I just want you to tell me. [speaker004:] Science. [speaker010:] With whom [speaker004:] I don't know [speaker010:] When are you supposed to come up here again? [speaker004:] Tuesday next. [speaker010:] Only once a week? Do you want me to sort out some stuff. [speaker004:] Er [speaker010:] I mean material that we can use. Right this guy's really important and that'll be helpful, Prince Charles book. Right, we wanna think about style, how it's changed since the sixties. When you think of sixties architecture what do you think of? [speaker004:] Ugly blocks of concrete. [speaker010:] Ugly blocks of concrete, okay. e.g. okay and whenever you describe this style you wanna think about right, take ugly blocks of concrete, okay ugly blocks of concrete, right, what is it and why do you think it looks like that? And what's it made of. Right, so what is it, it's flat [speaker004:] old-fashioned it's not modern [speaker010:] Ah, but it is in your context, you defined modern. So, why it's quick to build, space saving, what else is it, what is concrete that marble isn't? [speaker004:] Attractive [speaker010:] No concrete, what is concrete? [speaker004:] Oh, it's erm stone. I mean erm money money. [speaker010:] In comparison, how much does a block of concrete cost to a block of marble. [speaker004:] Buy much concrete to a block of marble [speaker010:] Exactly, so what is it, Paul, it is [speaker004:] Cost. [speaker010:] Cost Cost ec [speaker004:] Economically. [speaker010:] Economical. So it', I'm looking for a really simple word. It's ch,ch [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Cost consuming. Cost effective, economical cheap do it the simple way, so it's cheap and we've got what it's made of concrete. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] So it's cheap, space saving [speaker004:] Quick. [speaker010:] Quick. And that's it basically, so you've explained why ugly blocks of flats in the sixties and you even know cos why post-war reconstruction of London. So the important thing about this is that you cannot, you cannot just say modern equals bad, and trad is good because you must in order to argue Paul examine the [speaker004:] situation [speaker010:] yes, situation or more complicated word for situation the [speaker004:] modern arch context [speaker010:] you must examine the context because the situation relies on the [speaker004:] this is more art, it's like art. [speaker010:] No, you must [speaker004:] They like, they treat it as like pieces of art. [speaker010:] But you ca but people do. The thing is, the trouble with that is when you try and understand or argue about something like that you can't treat it as a work of art cos it isn't it's a functioning building [speaker004:] I'll have to change, I'll have to change my thingy [speaker010:] You've got to think about why is it there what is it made of. What does it look like, can you explain, where does it come in history, and post-war, pre-war, think about the context, it's really really really really really really really vital Does this help you in some way? [speaker004:] Yeah of course it does [speaker010:] Right what about if we wrote this instead of I don't think you work well from diagrams they keep confusing. Write it in a list [speaker004:] Things what I have to set out and like er put bits in [speaker010:] Only do a yeah, only do one little bit at a time You put big heading Paul, what did we do first, what did we talk about first? How weird. What did we talk about first Paul? Listen, what did we talk about first? [speaker004:] Erm [speaker010:] What was the first thing we did? What was the first thing we did? We wrote traditional and then we wrote modern and then what did we do, what did we decide for those two categories? [speaker004:] I can't remember, serious [speaker010:] What did we decide, we gave them a, what was the important thing, we gave them a [speaker004:] Erm [speaker010:] Was the important thing we them a [speaker004:] Erm, I don't know [speaker010:] Look if I write that does that help? [speaker004:] Oh yeah [speaker010:] So we gave them a [speaker004:] when, why, what situation [speaker010:] So what did we do first? The [speaker004:] The time line [speaker010:] The time we're looking at, so we decided traditional was from civilization to World War Two and we decided that World War Two to ninety four was modern okay. Now you can define modern in lots of ways but that will do for our purpose. [speaker004:] [raspberry] [speaker010:] Right then we decided that we look at materials and what. So under the heading of what first thing we looked at was materials. Okay now I want you to make a list there for traditional of all the materials we put around there, so make that list there okay and make it easier to look at. Make a list of these words that are around materials [speaker004:] Right, oh then I do [speaker010:] and then you can do uses or types of building and you can make a list of all those things as well so types [speaker004:] in your old college [speaker010:] now concentrate, what? [speaker004:] fire, I saw loads of people running down [speaker010:] Where? When? [speaker004:] the other day [speaker010:] you're losing your concentration, it's very interesting but materials list there, types of building list there and I'm going to the loo and I'll come back. [speaker004:] is that why you work so quick? [speaker010:] No, cos it's quick if I have to keep your attention No you're doing that first, you're doing it now, do that and go and see her afterwards [speaker001:] see what they do is they start you off and then they give you now what action do get from these words. Look at the words they're actually putting in, passion, loving, potions, you see what I mean why should they put in those sub-headings you what's the point of putting passion, what's the point of your sub-heading loving and potion. It is really isn't it? To grab your attention to keep your interest you've got another [speaker004:] [sneeze] [speaker001:] and you gonna keep on reading. So what you need to do is rather than have a big block of writing okay which is going to look not really in the format of this kind of newspaper is it? what you tend to get in the tabloids is loads of these little ones. See. Having said that of course quite a lot of the stories in the tabloids are actually quite small. what you need to think about and you're gonna keep your readers' interest engaged, keep on want to keep reading, your pictures are gonna do that to a certain extent but that's what your sub-headings goes over, so think about, pick out, read through your main story, pick out your main ideas and see if you can slot in one of those emotive words that's passion, that's stirring people's emotions The new college which cost eighteen million to build was destroyed there was a death toll, what about a final death toll was, it's a bit more than there was a, it's a bit boring, see what I'm saying? [Berkam:] yeah [speaker001:] final you've gotta be a bit more dramatic, you've gotta think of the words that are dramatic words, final death toll amounted to twenty twenty dead, forty three injured. Towering inferno at Bacon's [Berkam:] I'm still trying to get the headline [speaker001:] You gotta, you gotta try and think what your headline will be [Berkam:] right [speaker001:] no ideas, not yet [Berkam:] not yet [speaker001:] well well keep working on that what about erm the length of this piece I'm looking for, on A three aren't I [Berkam:] tends to be a little bit on the first page then it goes onto pages like two, three, all different pages with small sections [speaker001:] yeah [Berkam:] yeah, right will go from that to that [speaker001:] so all that writing is actually surrounding your picture isn't it, you've come up with your sensational picture and then you surround your sensational picture with your writing, I was saying to him with these little sub-headings like trapped, right, cost, holiday, okay which actually keep your reader hooked and make them want to read on. So again you've got to come up with your main heading what kinds of words do you think you've got to have in your main heading? [Berkam:] basic words to do with the subject [speaker001:] yeah more than that, what have they got to be these words they gotta be words which really what, which really make you feel what? [Berkam:] as thought you want to hear them [speaker001:] and [Berkam:] appeal to a [speaker001:] we're dealing with a horrendous fire here, we gotta have, shocking, don't you think some quite shocking words some quite horrifying words, if you want to grab people's attention [Berkam:] yeah [speaker001:] so think about that, what the tabloids do okay, think about your sub-headings and think about your main headings [Berkam:] yeah [speaker001:] okay, and the vocabulary you're gonna use but to start off with terrified that's that's really good. Right Sam what are you up to? is that not yours? Alright, you not got far on this [speaker003:] No [speaker001:] Shall we go onto, Kelly let's see what's she's been up to [speaker005:] is there two there? show us the other one [speaker001:] I don't know, it's the same one [speaker005:] what's the one at the back [speaker001:] It's the just these other, okay. That's good, don't you think, I'm impressed. I am impressed, I am impressed. Right Kelly tell me what you've been up to [speaker005:] that's just they're the people I'm going to interview okay then you've got example yesterday at approximately nine twenty Bacon's technical college at went up in a barrage of smoke taking one life which is believed to be that of the caretaker who was having a last minute check before leaving the building in the evening. It was thought the cause of the fire was a student leaving a bunsen burner on at the end of day. It is while the caretaker was in the science and humanities wing he turned on the light which caused the college to explode. Mr. the caretaker leaves behind a wife and three children, two of which were twins blah, blah, blah. Bacon's college which cost around a quarter, around eighteen million to build, has now been open, has only been open since September 1991, and they're just more details which I've gotta add while I'm writing it, that's just the beginning write on the front page [speaker001:] I don't know, my my feeling, my instinctive feeling is is that's not tabloidy enough, you know it's not erm horrific enough it's not, it doesn't grab me enough to be a front page of a tabloid. I mean I haven't seen there what you've got, what do you see as your main heading [speaker005:] that's not gonna be the heading right [speaker001:] you're not gonna use inferno at Bacon's, you haven't actually thought of the words? It's really important I think that you turn that into something more horrific and shocking. At the moment I mean that is quite a boring sort of report [speaker005:] It's more of a story than a [speaker001:] It is it's more of a little story and it's not a front page shocker which I think is what we said we'd set out to write, a front page shocker okay so I think you've got to think about the kind of words you use. Now what kind of words do you think should go on a front page if you're dealing [speaker005:] I dunno, but the sentences have gotta be shorter, [speaker001:] Yes you're right, they have [speaker005:] It's gotta be er more, like more snappy more to grab ya, ain't it really [speaker001:] and what's gonna grab you [speaker005:] I dunno yet [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] think about it how are you gonna grab me? what kind of words are you gonna use to grab me [speaker005:] er [speaker001:] bodies, victims, flames what do those words do to me as I'm reading [speaker005:] I think I might, I dunno I've gotta think of ways to change it so there's more than one line taken [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You're gonna make the actual statistics worse okay yeah you can do that [LAUGHTER] but it's the vocabulary that's not strong enough [speaker005:] yes [speaker001:] isn't it [speaker005:] yes it's more it's just going through the motions of a story at the moment rather than [speaker001:] you're, you've got quite a good backbone there but you haven't got anything that really grabs my emotions. You haven't shocked me, you haven't horrified me, you haven't made me want to cry yet [speaker005:] I'm gonna talk about the son here [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] If we're dealing with a front page horror story that's exactly what your journalist is gonna have to do otherwise his editor says it's not good enough you know go away, rewrite it and you got shock 'em you gotta make 'em cry and you're not, not yet [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] It's back to the drawing board [speaker001:] back to the drawing board you've got a backbone but you've not got anywhere near a shocking front page. Vicki? Some what's your time line do you think? When have you got to finish it by? Half term [David:] Half term [speaker001:] so what's your subject? [David:] school on fire [speaker001:] this college on fire, eighteen million goes up in flames mind you that's a boring headline really. right so in your thinking, what sort of things are you gonna put in that story? What is your reader gonna want to know about? [David:] how it started [speaker001:] right how it started, what else? [David:] erm, people injured [speaker001:] yes [David:] erm, information about the fire [speaker001:] how quickly it spread, who was trapped, who was burnt, how many fire engines, all those kind of things that people love to know. Has anybody got into the who was to blame bit? [LAUGHTER] poor old caretaker who is to blame. Yes, the kind of gruesome details that people want to know when they're reading these kind of stories, okay. Shock and horror is what sells these kinds of newspapers, unfortunately and they do a roaring trade, think about it, think about the vocabulary you gonna actually use. Right you two over here what are you up to have you got a headline? [speaker004:] Bacon's burning [speaker001:] Right look at the Gazette, twenty million college goes up in flames, out of control chemistry experiment wrecks school. [LAUGHTER] Right are you gonna have a picture underneath? [speaker004:] Yeah [speaker001:] Is your front page just gonna be all headline and picture, or are you gonna have a bit of story Okay so you're gonna have some statistics right, got a picture [speaker004:] I'll probably make the headline look smaller [speaker001:] Can you can you tell me or have you got a pic, where does the picture usually go? does it go right at the top or do you usually have a bit of headline what happened in that Mirror one there? [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker001:] The size of it, what's the size of the picture on that one? Teeny, weeny little ones on that one Do you think you actually look at the words first or the picture first? [speaker004:] Words Picture both, really I think they both hit you at the same time [speaker001:] I suppose if it's a colour picture [speaker004:] Like with that the picture's more distorted so you more read the words. I think it depends what the picture's really like Depends what the story's about and how big the picture is [speaker001:] how many of you are gonna try and do this in colour? [speaker004:] yeah [speaker001:] you can do right okay you gonna have to insert your pictures do a cut and paste job on the pictures, okay so what have we got here then? Bacon's burning oh nice one sizzle sizzle. Can you, if you use your language cleverly can you play on the bacon as in frying [speaker004:] grilled [speaker001:] that's pretty, yeah grilled that's really gruesome isn't it but you could, I mean really that's the sort of ghastly thing people do isn't it in headlines which you could use it as you've used the actual word Bacon's in your headline you could play on words keep using that idea. So what other sub-headings have you thought of? I keep having to remind you lot about your sub- headings. You're good on your headings but not on your sub- headings yet. What else could you put on that front page? city of the terrified, looting as thousands see that was good, looting wasn't that a good word to start with. What was that word you started with [speaker004:] terrified [speaker001:] terrified, he actually kicked off with the word terrified, this one's actually kicked off with the word looting. [speaker004:] this one's kicks off with the word the [speaker001:] the, boring, unimaginative anybody else got a good word to start [speaker004:] tragic [speaker001:] tragic that's a good word to start from it's the first thing they're gonna look at after the headline so it's pretty important that that the first word, I think looting was an excellent choice here. [speaker004:] nightmare [speaker001:] nightmare, that would go well yes. Right, subs, are these the sub-headings here? yes look reports and dramatic new pictures pages two and three. One man's story of the L A quake page nine. Tent city springs up, Britons fly home, beware of doing too large of making blocks of writing too large. Okay that does not fit in with this style of newspaper. Also have you noticed something else folks, boys, if you look at this how many different sizes of font have you actually got there on that page. one, two, three, four, five,si [speaker004:] what the whole story [speaker001:] well the whole page look at the differences, look at the variations there [speaker004:] ten [speaker001:] well it could be as many as that I mean sit and count it, but there's a lot of variation, there's a lot to catch your eye, I mean the more things contrast with each other, the more you notice them, isn't that true. When we looked at the Telegraph and the Times things seem so samey, there's just this uniform effect everything seeming to look the same whereas here they've really used such a variety of styles the curly, the straight, the blocked plus your black blocks across the bottom. Well you've taken the colour out there obviously in photocopying it but you've also got to be crafty and think of things like that as well. So bear that in mind, even the beginning of this story look at that first paragraph it's in a darker type it'll make me filthy, a darker and a larger size. So bear that sort of thing in mind as well. Girls how far have you got. This looks good. It's hot in the kitchen, Bacon's burning, now she's used the same sort of thing, it's hot in the kitchen Bacon's burning, you too could use the play on words for the idea of bacon and burning and cooking and sizzling if you want to be really gruesome. Make it very clever, she's got her woman on the front page boys. [speaker004:] that's money there [speaker001:] what is she covering herself with money. So we got bingo, we've got the word naked on the front page, she's dead crafty this girl. Okay what about you? [speaker004:] Let's have a look [speaker001:] Fire, fire, Bacon's college ablaze. Can we just hold up your front, yes come on, come on, evaluation of front headlines now, what have you picked, have you got yours? Have you thought of yours? How many of you have actually got your main headlines? what was yours? [speaker007:] Goodness gracious great balls of fire [speaker001:] goodness gracious great balls of fire, I like it [LAUGHTER] girls have you thought of yours [speaker004:] not yet [speaker001:] you've got, what have you two got, go on show [speaker004:] Bacon's burning [speaker001:] twenty million college goes up in flames, Bacon's burning, come evaluation, which do you think the most effective so far repeat, what was it? goodness gracious great balls of fire, fire fire Bacon's college ablaze, it's hot in the kitchen, and yours were [speaker004:] twenty million college goes up in flames [speaker001:] and yours was [speaker004:] Bacon's burning [speaker001:] right, those of you that haven't done one yet which one do you like best? [speaker004:] dunno [speaker001:] why? explain [speaker004:] cos it's a bit sick [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] come on what do you both say it's cleverer, isn't it? [speaker004:] mm [speaker001:] Yes, you give him ten out of ten for effort there. We like your cleverness [LAUGHTER] Has he given it more thought, he's just come up with a really clever idea I think there [speaker004:] he said that first day, didn't he? [speaker001:] he did, he came out with it straight straight away. Right good words in headlines then, any which words grab here. You two [speaker004:] hot [speaker001:] hot [speaker004:] I think, with the kitchen though it kinda makes you think that's the fire's going in the kitchen which it's not yeah but I used kitchen cos bacon yeah, but that in which case I think you should try and tie the story in with it became in like the canteen yeah but in the kitchen in the canteen it says hot in the kitchen then it's got Bacon's burning. yeah, but obviously the canteen is part of the college and could've have still burnt down the college. And with the kitchen in it I think it could tie into the story with it being in the headline. [speaker001:] Well you mean so if she, if in her story [speaker004:] you know, it would make it better cos I got the impression of reading the headline, it meant that you know from the kitchen [speaker001:] So if his story now isn't going to be in the kitchen this is a mislay misleading headline. [speaker004:] yeah [speaker001:] right what've got here? Fire, fire, is that, what do you think of that for a start, fire, fire. [speaker004:] fire, London's burning [speaker001:] So you gonna really, you're gonna use the quote at the front, that could be good. It's certainly the word fire is the one that goes with ablaze, is ablaze a good word? [speaker004:] mm [speaker001:] do you like that word? [speaker004:] it's different to what everybody else is using [speaker001:] bit more sophisticated actually isn't it, maybe too sophisticated for this. Mm what have we got over here then, what do we make of yours? Again just Bacon's burning, is your fire going to be in the kitchen? [speaker004:] mm no [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] you just like the idea of bacon cooking you picked up on the same idea. And what we did we have. Now this is totally different, what do you make of this one? What do you think of this? girls. [speaker005:] I don't think that's kind of less what you'd find in the Sun because of twenty million college goes up in flames. I think, I dunno whether it's more political more you know people think well why was twenty million wasted on a college you know and saying like that I think you know which is less the Sun. [speaker001:] He's actually called it the Gazette so we don't know if it's political [LAUGHTER] But you're right yes it's sort of erm drawing your attention to the fact that this college [speaker005:] the money [speaker001:] costs this horrendous sum of twenty million pounds political slant to the story [speaker005:] and it's only been open for what two or three years [speaker001:] what a waste [speaker005:] you know [speaker001:] and then they didn't build it well enough to withstand fire [speaker005:] exactly especially you know [speaker001:] ooh, ooh, interesting out of control chemistry experiment wrecks school [speaker005:] well this a science orientated college and they shouldn't be allowed to get out of control. [speaker001:] cos it's a C T C [speaker005:] yeah [speaker001:] even worse, you can build on this idea, couldn't you? I think he's got a good idea here but if he takes that slant to his story you could do rather well. Do you like that idea? Yes. I think that could go quite well. Which which words then are actually grabbing you there. [speaker005:] twenty million [speaker001:] definitely [speaker005:] yeah and then the flames

[speaker001:] In this action the plaintiff, Anna Jane sues for damages for serious injuries she received in a motor car accident on the sixth of June, nineteen eighty seven. Liability is admitted and the case proceeds on quantum only. The case was heard in the week of November the eighth to the twelfth at Chelmsford. Speeches finished in the late afternoon of my last day there and judgement was reserved to London.... The results of the accident were truly appalling.... The plaintiff was just eighteen at the time... she was in her A level year at school.... In the car with her were her boyfriend Peter, his sister Jane and another school friend Lucy.... All three of the plaintiff's friends were killed in the accident and the plaintiff sustained very grave injuries... which kept her in hospitals and a rehabilitation centre... for almost three years. It was not until the twenty third of May of nineteen ninety that she was finally discharged home to the care of her parents.... In the accident she sustained a very severe closed head injury, a mid shaft fracture of the right humorous... fractures of the lower left radius and ulna and a fracture of the right femur.... She also suffered injuries to the left side of her chest and a laceration over the eye which went down to the bone. She was a, she was admitted to Hinchinbrook hospital, Huntingdon but was deeply unconscious and not responding to stimulus. Within a few hours she was transferred to the neurosurgical unit at Addenbrookes hospital, Cambridge. There she remained critically ill for several months, initially needing treatment with a ventilator to assist her breathing. On the fifteenth of June nineteen eighty seven she underwent a tracheostomy.... One of the effects of a very severe head injury... is that bone fractures heal extremely quickly and this caused problems in the management of the plaintiff's fractures. The fracture of the right femur healed in six weeks... with two and a half inches of shortening. The left wrist developed deformities, so did both feet... as a result of gross muscle spasm putting them in plantar flexion.... In December nineteen eighty seven she was transferred from intensive care to a main ward, but it was not until February nineteen eighty eight that she fully emerged from coma. On the twenty fifth of April nineteen eighty eight she was transferred back to Hinchinbrook hospital. A month later on the twenty fourth of May nineteen eighty eight, there was the first of a series of operations to correct deformities of both feet and the left wrist. This particular operation was a lengthening of the right achilles tendon. It was a long and difficult operation and caused the plaintiff considerable pain afterwards. A month later on the twenty second of June nineteen eighty eight another operation lengthened the left achilles tendon. On the twenty eight of September nineteen eighty eight she had a major operation on her left wrist. This was again a very painful operation in that she still suffered pain for many weeks thereafter. Two further operations to her left wrist were carried out on the twenty seventh of January nineteen eighty nine and the twenty sixth of April nineteen eighty nine.... These injuries, severe and painful though they were, are only a small part of the story when compared to the effects of the severe closed head injury. She remained in a coma for eight months, a greater part of her time at Addenbrookes. Once she had recovered full consciousness it became clear that she had entirely lost the power of speech. Later it had to be accepted... that she would be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Effectively therefore she can neither walk nor talk and she is always going to need twenty four hour care for the rest of her life. She is now aged twenty four... and there is a normal life expectation, that is a life expectation of a further fifty five years to the age of seventy nine. The picture of the plaintiff before the accident is one of a lively, bright, sociable and sporting girl in the prime of life. Thoroughly enjoying her last year at school. Taking her A levels and hoping to go on to read for a degree in hospitality management at Norwich City college. She had already taken one A level in law and had another to take in history as well. Sorry, and had another to take in history as well as an O level in mathematics at the time of the accident. I should note here that there is a dispute between the parties, as to whether she would in fact obtain the grades necessary to take up that post. She was a very active teenager and made many contributions to her school and community. She generated great warmth and friendship and was a... quote social animal unquote. Popular both with her peers and with adults. Her sister Clare, eighteen months her junior, described her as quote, a sister who seemed to be able do everything, she had a never ending social life, I was amazed how she managed to fit everything in... unquote. The plaintiff had boundless energy, played tennis and badminton for her school and had county trials for badminton. She played squash, was keen on swimming and had passed a bronze medal in life saving just before her accident. Her parents only came to appreciate the impact the plaintiff had made on others before her accident from the tributes that were paid to her by outsiders of the family during the months the plaintiff was in a coma at Addenbrookes. I shall have more to say the plaintiff's young life when I deal with the reports that were written on her from her school... when dealing with the loss of future earnings. The contrast between her pre-accident state of health and quality of life and the plaintiff's present position after three years of in-patient treatment and more than three years of devoted care at home from her parents... is stock. In addition to seeing the plaintiff in court, I have had the advantage of seeing a video, key one, showing examples of her daily routine taken on the tenth of May nineteen ninety one after she had been at home with her parents for a year. I saw the video in court and I have played it again... er since this case was adjourned in November. I add a few examples from that video... of what one can deduce as to the daily routine. The plaintiff can give a little assistance to those who dress her and when she's got out of bed she can stand with the assistance of one other person. She can shuffle... while, when held in a bear hug, bear hug position... by one of her parents in order for her to be transferred to a commode or to a wheelchair. She can manoeuvre her wheelchair in the confined spaces of her present home but not without the occasionally shunt and collision. She can be got with difficulty and the use of a wheelchair lift, out to the campervan the fa the family have. The route itself is not simple, nor is the entry into the camper camper van up a ramp. She communicates basically by using a cannon communicator which types out what she wants to say onto ticker tape which she then tears off and hands to the person to whom she wants to talk. This is her method of communication, she uses her left hand mainly to tap the keys and it is necessarily a slow process. She has no power of speech remaining to her, she also has an Acorn computer and types very many letters on it. I have read two typed statements from the plaintiff dated the twenty ninth of April nineteen ninety one, brackets see pages one to nine... and the twenty eighth of June nineteen ninety one, brackets see pages twenty to twenty two closed brackets. Those statements were a testament to the life and spirit the plaintiff has within her. The first is nine pages of typed script and took her seventeen hours to do. I have also had a short conversation with her in court using the medium of her cannon communicator and its ticker tape. At home she also uses the Acorn computer to play a number of computer games including golf with her father. Her greatest interest seems to be in writing and receiving letters and she watches television, plays music and reads, usually magazines not books. It is clear that she will never marry and have children, follow a career... enjoy the leisure interests of her own age group or otherwise enjoy the quality of life which so many take for granted. It is also clear that... though the accident may have slightly lowered her I Q, she remains an intelligent young lady who is fully aware of everything that she has lost, but determined not to dwell on that loss. The fact that she has fought back to the level that she has now attained... is a tribute to the loving care, encouragement and inspiration given her by her parents. Not only since she came home in nineteen ninety but in the three long years when she was hospitalised. Mr Peter the consultant orthopaedic surgeon who tended her first immediately after the accident at Hinchinbrook... and thereafter in the year from April nineteen eighteen eight as well as seeing her from time to time since, had this to say about her parent's efforts... quote... I think that without their constant support and stimulation... and their determination that Anna Jane would function again as a rational human being. There is every chance that Anna Jane would have remained permanently institutionalised. I think their greatest achievement was to realise... that despite the fact that she was unable to speak, she was still able to communicate in other ways. Both the parents and Anna Jane's sister... were in constant attendance at the hospital, nursing her and stimulating her. Helping with her physiotherapy and supporting her through what was very painful treatment. I am sure that without their constant support, the results would have been much worse than they have been. E A, eleventh of October nineteen ninety three. Mr when he gave evidence, assessed the parent's contribution as... quote... absolutely amazing really, not just what they did to help the nurses but also in insisting that she wasn't stupid, she just couldn't talk... they made it clear to the nurses and doctors that she could understand and we weren't to treat her like a vegetable. He stated, correctly in my view, that he had quote seen her much more than anybody else unquote and confessed that when he had first treated her on the day of the accident... he had quote never expected to see her again, unquote. I say here that I have been gratefully assisted by the reports and evidence of Mr Peter... and Mr David from Hunstead Park in this case. I've also been greatly assisted... by the detailed report and evidence of Mrs Julia the plaintiff's expert on rehabilitation costs. Where her evidence is in conflict with that of Miss Judith, the defendant's expert, I prefer the former because of the depth and variety of experience Mrs has. It will be necessary for me to return to Mr assessment of the quality and extent to which the parent's contribution has helped... to achieve the plaintiff's present quality of life. When I deal with the cost of and care and also the cost nursing care for her future. It will be seen that I have to arrive at figures in respect of damages in this case under a number of heads. The first is of course that covering the plaintiff's pain, suffering and loss of amenity. To that must be added her loss of earnings throughout her life in her chosen occupation. There is also the cost of care... both up to today's date given by her parents and in the future to be given by her parents and by professional carers. To this must be added the cost of accommodation in the future, it being accepted on all sides that the plaintiff's present home, though much loved by her, is not suitable in any long term assessment. There is also the cost of transport, to be used in the future to get her and her wheelchair about. There are also a host of other matters where, in the main, agreement has helpfully been reached on the figures. Sub-heading, pain, suffering and loss of amenity.... I have already drawn attention to the appalling contrast between the plaintiff's young life as it was before the accident and her life as it is now. Her prolonged treatment as an in-patient meant that she was nearly a year in Addenbrookes hospital, over a year in Hinchinbrook hospital and a further year at Hunstead Park rehabilitation and medical centre. The medical reports before me deal fully with those years. Her time at home since leaving Hunstead on the twenty third of May nineteen ninety is well described in the reports and by her parents and her sister. The expert reports detail the visits to her and describe her home surroundings. She is now left in the situation where she is wheelchair bound. In need of twenty four hour care to get through the day. Only able to take part in a limited range of activities at home and particularly seriously, she is only able to hold a conversation by the laborious method of tapping out her comments on ticker tape through using her cannon communicator. This is a severe disability in one so young, where the speed of communication of youth is an ever present part of daily life. As Mr said in an earlier report, brackets B twelve closed brackets quote,... Anna Jane is a quick witted intelligent girl and it is obviously extremely frustrating for her to have to type her conversations, unquote. The psychiatric report from doctor brackets B twenty three closed brackets... noted that, quote, most avenues of normal life are now closed to Anna and will remain closed to her permanently. She retains a liveliness of mind which is quite extraordinary under the circumstances and she still displays a keen sense of humour and a warmth of contact despite the fact that she has to use a machine. While this is some ways a mercy, it nonetheless serves to accentuate the loss that she experiences. It will increase her anxieties about the future... and it will also and it does indeed, cause great frustration, frustration at her terrible disabilities. She is an extraordinary young woman who dares her difficulties with great fortitude and makes every effort not to show her unhappiness to those around her. However, unhappiness, guilt and a sense of terrible loss is with her almost constantly. I interrupt the report of doctor to si to say that I have seen that... conclusion for myself in her writings that I have read. Doctor goes on... when one considers her potential life in terms of an academic achievement and marriage with a family, one can only say that without a shadow of doubt... she has been devastated... and her emotionally devastation will I fear, increase over the years, unquote. For my part I entirely accept doctor assessment. The plaintiff's position now is that she has to face the fact that she's wheelchair bound for life and unable to speak.... As well as the fact, already mentioned, that she requires twenty four hour care. This, at the moment, is being undertaken by her parents. Her father has to sleep in the same room since he has to attend to her during the night when she may need a bed pan up to four times. She is generally continent but may be incontinent of urine once a week. She needs assistance to get her on and off the toilet and in cleaning herself after opening her bowels. She cannot brush her own hair, or clean her teeth adequately. She can drink from a beaker with a lid and straw, but has to have someone with her because of the risk of choking. She can hold a spoon and feed herself but only slowly and with spillage. Her food has to be in sandwich or semi-pureed form for easy swallowing and again to reduce the possibility of choking. She can use a pen in her right hand for short notes. There is a problem with gripping... which has shown some improvement but which is apt to be most problematical when, for instance, she is concentrating hard at her computer. These constraints on the quality of her daily life, are enormous. The change from what she was to what she has become... is a vast one.... Law of the evidence in relation to that change... will be apparent when I deal with the question of loss of future earnings. As I have already indicated she has entirely lost the possibility of marriage, children and an enjoyable career. It is in the light of these matters that I have to decide upon the appropriate evidence up upon the appropriate figure... for pain, suffering and loss of amenity. Naturally enough different figures are advanced by council on either side, though that difference on this particular head of damage is not great. Mr for the plaintiff argues for a figure of a hundred and thirty thousand pounds... whereas Mr for the defendant submits that the claim is worth between a hundred and fifteen and a hundred and twenty thousand. Mr puts the case as comfortable with awards in the case of tetraplegia. He draws support from and the trustees of the Italian hospital and others... reported in and volume two dash A four dash one O four... and and, nineteen eighty six, one all England report, page three two two. Mr on the other hand, stresses that there is no continuing pain or epilepsy and no psychiatric illness such as depression. Mr stresses that there is in this case, a much longer life expectancy than in Abbel, namely fifty five compared to forty two. He says that the speech difficulties and the mental injury in this case, put the damages higher than in and. Both council agreed present day value of the award in that case would be in the vicinity of one hundred and twenty thousand pounds. I conclude... that taking into account all the matters... which were before, which I've attempted briefly to summarise in the introductory paragraphs and under this heading. The proper figure for general damages for pain, suffering and loss of amenity is one hundred and thirty thousand pounds..... Mrs [whispering] []. Mr first laid plans of mice and men is one page missing as it is only twenty five metres away and I shall have it shortly.... I resume... sub-heading,... cost of parents care to date.... It is agreed that in arriving at a figure appropriate to be rewarded for the care given by the plaintiffs to the date of trial. The period of six and a half years should be divided into two sections. First, that from the accident and until the plaintiff was discharged from Hunstead Park in May nineteen ninety and second the period the plaintiff has spent at home from such a discharge until now. For that first period, Mr claims a sum of seventeen thousand eight hundred and five pounds worked out on an hourly basis. By multiplying five thousand one hundred and ten hours by three pounds fifty, a rate something under the full commercial rate. In contract Mr does not count hours, but arrives at an overall figure of seven thousand five hundred pounds. It must not be forgotten that for this three year period the patient was being cared for in two hospitals... and in Hunstead Park... by a full range of no doubt dedicated professions. However, I have already referred to the views of Doctor David of the quality of the parent's care while the patient was in Hinchinbrook. I shall also refer to the views of Doctor David... as to that care when the patient was at Hunstead Park. He thought the care had been, quote, managed wonderfully well, unquote. He had, quote, rarely seen a case so well managed as in this case, unquote. He also said in evidence that the quote, parental contribution has been of fundamental importance, unquote. He attached exteme, extreme importance to their visiting in the first few years. It should be stressed that in the first period, when the plaintiff was at Addenbrookes hospital, that is from June nineteen eighty seven to May nineteen eighty eight, at least one parent was in attendance for eight hours a day. The help given in the first period of Addenbrookes, when the plaintiff had her own room and was for much of the time still in a coma, was clearly signifidant, significant, not only in caring for the plaintiff's physical needs, but in giving the support and encouragement which no doubt contributed greatly to the plaintiff's emergence from that coma. For the second period at Hinchinbrook, from May nineteen eighty eight to May nineteen eighty nine... again at least one parent was present for eight hours each day and assistance was given with physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy. The parents assumed responsibility for helping the plaintiff to eat her midday and evening meals. At Hunstead Park from May nineteen eighty nine until May nineteen ninety, both parents stayed for the first week and thereafter supported the plaintiff in taking her back for home visits, every weekend plus a week at Christmas and Easter. I consider that it would not be appropriate t to adhere too rigidly... to the number of hours multiplied by a rate of three pounds fifty per hour... suggested by Mr. But I feel that the sum suggested my Mr is far too low. It follows that I award for this period of care by the plaintiff's parents... the sum of fifteen thousand pounds which equates to an award of three pounds hourly for five thousand hours. The second period covers the time from May nineteen ninety until now... when the plaintiff has been solely looked after by the parents with the greatest devotion,... application, selflessness and skill superimposed on their natural love and affection for the plaintiff. That care has been without the benefit of any paid help. Indeed in May nineteen ninety Mr gave up his appointment as a teacher in order that he could care for the plaintiff full time. As an of what he's lost by so doing, his gross salary for this financial year would have been twenty four thousand five hundred and sixty seven pounds. Mrs gave up her voluntary employment in order that she too could assist full time. Were the plaintiff's parents unable or unwilling to prov provide her care themselves. The annual cost of full time care including two full time staff and weekend and holiday cover, would be fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds ninety six pence, as set out in the report of Mr Julia at B one O two. It was claimed that the plaintiff should be compensated for care of her parents to the full commercial rate in accordance with the principles expressed in Abbel. That sum as originally claimed totalled two hundred and seven thousand, nine hundred and seventy six pounds eighty six pence for this period of care. It is no conceded that that figure included matters which should not have been taken into consideration, such as the agency quotes mark-up unquotes and the effect of V A T. Figures making allowance for appropriate deductions but also including what I've said by Mr to be appropriate increases totalling one hundred and sixty thous one hundred and sixty six thousand two hundred and fifty pounds, are claimed on behalf of the plaintiff. Mr relies upon what Mr Justice as he then was, called the ceiling principle, in the Abbel case, referring to the principle enunciated in and. In Abbel Mr Justice found it appropriate for the plaintiff quote, to recompense his parents up to the commercial rate for one full time carer, unquote. On that basis Mr took the cost of one professional carer as twenty three thousand eight hundred and six pounds a year, he multiplied by three point five and arrived at a figure of eighty three thousand three hundred and twenty one pounds. Mr Mr had an alternative calculation. He thought to take Mr gross salary in the present financial year, to reduce it by a third to get from gross to net earnings and to do similar calculations for the rest of the three and a half years so as to arrive at the figure of fifty three thousand nine hundred and six pounds. It should be noted... that the figure of twenty three thousand eight hundred and six pounds which Mr had had taken... is the cost of the carer paid on the basis of quote, proscript charges, unquote, advocated by the defendant's expert Mrs and not the British Nursing Agency charges, advocated by the plaintiff's expert Mrs. Brackets, for the B N A charges, see B one thirty, where the carers fee is an hourly rate of four pounds twelve pence, but the inclusive cost to the client, with the mark-up, is six pounds and ten pence. Again I accept the constant parental care has been of the highest calibre and I remind myself of the many tributes to the quality of that care in the evidence before me. I also remind myself of the effect upon the plaintiff's fathers career, of his decision to give up work in order to attend the plaintiff. I pause to state that I accept Mr submission that no claim for loss of pension... has been made out on the evidence before me. The pension has been transferred to the Legal and General... and has been left there at the present time to grow and be managed. I should have something to say later on about future care by Mr. I reject both of the methods of calculation submitted by Mr. I also reject each of the additions submitted by Mr to the net commercial care valuation put by him... at thirty six thousand one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. He had advocated an addition of either a half of the agency mark-up, which would produce a figure of forty seven thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and thirty four pence... or alternatively a factor of twenty five percent which would produce a figure of forty five thousand one hundred and eighty eight pounds and forty pence.... I conclude that the proper figure to be used as a cost in this second period is the net commercial care valuation of Mrs figures, which would be thirty six thousand, one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. That multiplied by three point five... comes to the figure of a hundred and twenty six thousand, five hundred and twenty seven pounds fifty two pence, which is the figure I would award. [cough]. Sub-heading care for the future. The problems I have to resolve under this heading are not made any easier by uncertainty, even in the short term future, as to who will be doing the caring and at what stages changes to the present regime will take place. Both the father and mother have already put in six and a half years of devoted care... and certainly physically and perhaps mentally the strains are beginning to tell. I have reports from doctor, their general practitioner brackets B two one eight and two one nine, close brackets, on the state of their physical health. Mr has low back pain, sometimes with left sided sciatica, which he's suffered from since the twenty second of June nineteen eighty eight and which may have been exacerbated by lifting the plaintiff. Mrs has recently undergone a hysterectomy and also has recurrent neck, shoulder and arms pains from the nineteen eighty one traffic accident.... I want it to be clearly understood that I do not in any way mean to suggest there is any question of prevarication when I say that as to the prospect for the future there is essentially a difference between what the plaintiff's parents said in their statements made as recently as the twenty eighth of October of this year... and what they said in their evidence about their attitude to future care. To deal first with their statements, Mr accepted in his statement that he and his wife would not be able to care physically for Anna Jane indefinitely and spoke of the intention to introduce the use of carers gradually. Mrs in her statement said that, quote, although my husband and I would like to be able to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I accept that the last six years have taken their toll... on us and the reality is that it's unlikely that we will be able to provide the same level of care... and... same level of care and outside carers are required, unquote. Mr in his evidence spoke of their quotes, beginning to think that alternative regime, when we began to realise that we had limits, unquote. He accepted that the introduction of a night sleeper was something which couldn't be contemplated in their present accommodation because it would involve the carer sleeping in the same room as the plaintiff. He accepted however that once this case was over the real hunt for more suitable accommodation would begin and by that time, at least, there could be the introduction of such a carer. Mr later on in her evidence said, quote, I consider that after six and a half years, I deserve to have a life of my own, it is not a prison sentence, I have done nothing wrong, I wish to be free to give assistance at my choice, we cannot continue to live in our present home, Michael and I cannot continue to look after Anna in the way we have. All these matters show that it is a vexed question when exactly there will be a change in the regime and that is a question I shall seek to answer a little later on.... However, one question, to which there is a clear answer is what is said to be the plaintiff's life expectancy. It is accepted by the medical experts on either side that a t that at twenty four, the plaintiff's expectation life is substantially unaffected by the accident. The life expectancy of a girl of twenty four, according to conventional tables, is for the age of seventy nine and is thus fifty five years. It's on that basis that a whole life multiplier must be found. Mr relies on... Hunt and Sellers nineteen ninety three, for all England reports one eighty and two O one, where the said, quote, what we need is a simple arithmetic calculation of the present value of future payments. Council have provided us with a table which shows that the present value of one pound per annum, payable for the next twenty five years, discounted at four point five percent is fourteen point eight two eight two one pounds, unquote. Mr relied... on the same table to produce a figure of twenty point two five pounds on a life expectancy of fifty five years and accepted a reduction to twenty for the whole life multiplier. This was an advance from the figure of nineteen claimed by the defence on the pleadings. Mr contended that the case was different from Hunt and Sellers in that there was an agreed expectation of life. He said that the proper approach was to be found in against the National Coal Board nineteen eighty five one weekly reports nine thirty at ninety five. He submitted that the multiplier should be seventeen for the whole life. Those then are the two approaches of the parties in relation to the appropriate multiplier to be applied when working out the cost of future care for the plaintiff. Mr had opted for the figure nineteen, for the multiplier in the pleadings in this case. After the decision in and which was only reported on the fifth of October of this year in the all England reports. He moved to take the figure to twenty. Mr selected the figure seventeen... it is in no spirit of perversity that I have lit upon a figure not contended for by either of the parties, namely eighteen. I have looked at the approach followed in and. I've also looked at the approach in and National Coal Board. An expectation of life, as was pointed out in and nineteen seventy two one sixty five at eighty five to eighty six, is a matter of probability taken for actuarial purposes to be treated as a certainty. It relates to the average man or woman and no one can say whether an individual plaintiff is that average man or woman. The calculation has therefore to be discounted to allow for the various imponderants. In this case... I consider particularly that there are, there are a great many imponderants. I consider the and figure should be discounted down to eighteen, which is the figure I adopt for the whole life multiplier. I accept Mr submissions on Autee that arrive at a different figure from him. I remind myself that Autee was a case concerning a pension scheme. In Autee Lord Justice had this to say at page nine two seven... quote,... having decided that he, brackets the judge close brackets, could make no allowance for the possibility of increased pension payments because of the increased cost of living index, he had to decide the present day value of the fixed sum payable in thirty one years time. He chose a five percent discount rate table and in my opinion nobody could fault such a choice. Two. It was submitted A that the judge in taking a multiplier of seven to compensate the ten point four years loss, was taking a figure that was too low and B, that in applying a substantial discount for other imponderables he was discounting twice over for early death. A, the judge did not explain the use of seven as a multiplier but it not suggested that such a calculation could be done with complete accuracy and using a five percent table, the judge was faced with choosing between seven and eight. He chose seven and in my opinion this court should not interfere. B, the discount for imponderables which the judge made in Autee's case, was twenty seven percent. The judge said that the imponderables included voluntary wastage, redundancy, dismissal, supervenient ill health, disablement or death before sixty five and said that death was the major discount. It was submitted that the risk of death was already taken into consideration in the expectation of life. This is a misunderstanding. The expectation of life is an average and assumes everybody lives to that age and then dies but in fact some die before and some after. Those who die before are the important ones. Sir Gordon in and nineteen seventy two sixty five page five twenty six. After saying that actuarial calculations were based on the performance of the average man, went on quote, the average man has an expectation of life of a certain number of years. This is a matter of probability but for purposes of actuarial calculation, it has to be treated as a certainty. Yet nobody can say whether an individual plaintiff is an average man or that he will live for the expectation of life of an average man of his age. Any actuarial calculation must therefore be discounted to allow for the chance that he may only live for a shorter period. The chances and not the probabilities are what the judge has to evaluate in any given case. It is true that there is also a chance that the individual plaintiff may live longer than the average expectation of life. The chances are equal either way but as a matter of calculation it can be shown that the impact of the chance of shorter life is of greater significance than that of longer life, end quote. Lord Justice went on, quote, I agree with this... indeed when making the calculations the judge had to make, those who die early are the only ones which matter because the fact of living longer than the expectation is immaterial.... It is thus that I arrive at my multiplier for the whole life of eighteen.... As to the multiplicand and the way it's arrived at. There was again a divergence between the parties. It is worthy of note at this stage that on Mr t to say that on Mr calculations... the figures for multiplier and multiplicand to the cost of total ca er of future care involved an addition to a total sum of one million two hundred and twenty five thousand seven hundred and fifty five pounds and twenty eight pence. On Mr calculations for the defendant on the other hand... the cost was said to be six hundred and twenty thousand three h three hundred pounds and thirty one pence. In short the one calculation was almost double the other. Mr set out his calculations in three separate bids. The first was from now for ten years. The second from that point on until the parents were in their seventies and the third after the death of the parents. For the first period he took as a starting point his previously arrived figure of forty seven thousand five hundred pounds and as an end point a figure of fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds ninety six pence, derived from Mrs. A mean of the two with a multiplier of four arrived at a figure of two hundred and thirteen thousand, eight hundred and forty three pounds and ninety two pence. In the second period, applying a multiplier of six to the figure of fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds and ninety six pence, he arrived at a figure of three hundred and fifty six thousand five hundred and thirty one pounds and seventy six pence. For the third period... he applied a multiplier of ten to Mrs figure in B one O four of sixty five thousand five hundred and thirty seven pounds and ninety six pence, to produce a figure of six hundred and fifty five thousand three hundred and seventy nine pounds and sixty pence. Those were the figures which he aggregated... to produce a total of over one point two million pounds.... Mr calculations on the other hand split into two periods, one of eight years and one of nine. For the first period he took as his starting point a figure of twenty thousand three hundred and seventy eight pounds to cover the parents involved. That figure was made up as to sixteen thousand three hundred and seventy eight pounds being two third of Mr salary plus an addition of about four thousand pounds to cover Mrs additional help. To that we added a night keeper and relief, brackets B two six four close brackets, and an allowance for physical help during the day charged at the crossroads rate which brought the total up to thirty three thousand five hundred and twenty eight pounds and twenty pence. That figure multiplied by eight for the first period gave a total of two hundred and sixty eight thousand two hundred and twenty four pounds. To that figure he added a total of three hundred and fifty two thousand one hundred and seven pounds for the future made up of a yearly figure of thirty nine thousand one hundred and twenty three pounds for Mrs evidence, multiplied by nine. It was thus that he arrived at his figure of six hundred and twenty thousand three hundred and thirty one pounds to the overall cost of future care in this case. Those contrary approaches, contrary calculations and contrary totals, the one nearly twice the other, had only to be set up to illustrate the difficulty of the problems in this case. I first deal with evidence in relation to how and when the caring regime will change in the future. Mr in his statement C thirty three, had said... quote, although he wished to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I have already begun to have problems with my back... therefore we intend to introduce the use of carers gradually so that Anna Jane gets used to them.... I have already quoted Mrs in her statement brackets C forty eight, saying although my husband and I would like to be able to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I accept the last six years have taken their toll on us both and in reality it's unlikely that we will continue to be able to provide the same level of care and outside is required, unquote.... By the tear by the time... each of them came to give evidence in this case it was clear that each had brought forward in their own minds the time when daytime carers would be needed. Mrs the plaintiff's expert thought it was quote, extremely unreasonable to expect Mr and Mrs to continue caring as they do for their daughter, unquote.... Mrs the defendant's expert in her statement formed the view that the plaintiff's parents quote, will remain the main carers for the rest of their natural lives, unquote. She said quote, I do not accept that Mr and Mrs will hand over the care of their daughter... to paid carers until it is absolutely necessary. When I discussed this possibility with them Mrs became very agitated, unquote. Mrs said that quote, when the time comes that Mr and Mrs are unable to provide all or any of the care themselves, I consider that it would be appropriate to employ carers direct and not via an agency. Agency care is not a permanent solution and it as agency carers can never be as good as two or three permanent staff. Support for my argument that agency care is likely to be used... comes from the findings of a follow up survey of a nineteen er sorry, comes from the findi, I I'll start that sentence again. Support for my argument that agency care is unlikely to be used comes from the findings... of a follow up survey. One hundred and fifty three personal injury claims received awards of a hundred and fifty thousand or more in nineteen eighty seven and nineteen eighty eight. The study found that in practice family members remained the primary carers, unquote. In her evidence she said that Mr and Mrs needed assistance to care for their daughter. She said I think in practice they will make considerable input in the care of their daughter, not necessarily with the heavy physical work of care. I found it impossible to get from Mr and Mrs what their care would be, they were either unable or unwilling to discuss it with me, unquote. As to who would provide the care she said that where there is care over a long period of time, families often stop employing carers through an agency. She said quote, I really don't accept the agency argument, I've not met one family that has continued with agency care. Agency care is not the answer, I'm not aware why they say agency care because they have no experience of it. I think the family is being asked to accept something which they have no experience of, unquote. She agreed however, that if agency care was appropriate then sixty thousand pounds plus was the cost of that care. Doctor the medical expert called on behalf of the defendant, had discussed the question of future care... in a visit he made to the plaintiff's hou home in July this year. He had discussed with the pl parents in the presence of the plaintiff, the care options. The conclusion was that quote, Anna Jane was to be cared for primarily by her parents, I am not saying exhaustively, they wanted to be involved for as long as they were able to do. There was no dissent from Anna Jane, unquote. He thought it was reasonable for them not to provide night care even now... and essential for them to have a night sleeper for seven nights a week from this time on. He thought it was also reasonable and sensible for any family involved in long term care to have additional assistance for particularly strenuous and regular activities. He had in mind particularly the getting up of a patient in the morning, the morning routine and also the going to bed at night. He felt that two hours in the morning and one hour at night was the appropriate assistance. He spoke of the research evidence of the few people who are gi who are given money for care, taken up after the settlement of their cases and added his own experience. He said quite, quote, in my experience people who have access to, or are offered this level of care, even if it's even if it is started, it is rarely continued for more than a few months.... He said the explanation was resided in two factors. First the socially disrupted effect of various carers coming into the home and secondly, the practical difficulties of ob of obtaining carers. He said quote, if there are relatives available, a care package does not normally work. Somebody elects to stop it because it is not satisfactory, unquote. As to alternative sources of care... he thought the better answer was the crossroads organisation rather than an nursing agency.... He thought that the question of involvement... with the patient was quote, precisely what you do not get with the agency, they, meaning the agency, are professionals taking a professional, non-involved approach. No staff do it short term or as an addition to their normal job. Much more commitment comes through crossroads whose workers are untrained in the sense that they are not qualified, but are expert carers. He said from experience that in using an agency it was extremely difficult to get even a small number of carers, quote, you know who is coming when they arrive through the door, unquote. Doctor made it clear that in comparing crossroads with a nursing agency, he was not saying that crossroad were any better than the agency but they were less expensive. The current rates were between two pounds sixty and three pounds ten pence an hour. I have already referred to the B N A rate, the British Nursing Agency rate of four pounds and twelve pence, without mark-up. I found Doctor an impressive witness. He had both academic and practical experience of the problems of which he was speaking. He was lecturer in clinical neurology at the University of Oxford, consultant at consultant in neurological disability at the Radford Infirmatory, Infirmary... and the Rivermead Rehabilitation Centre, Oxford. He was responsible for twenty five to thirty in-patients and thirty to forty out-patients at Rivermead, he was also responsible for a hundred and thirty patients attending Richie Russell House, Oxford for relief care. I found his professional knowledge and experience for the management of patients severely disabled consequent upon head injury, to be extremely valuable. I wish to state however that there were two areas in his evidence which I found myself... totally unable to accept. First, in his evidence he referred to a better solution... as being quotes, seeks a small residential setting with some other people, unquote and went on to refer to the possibility of the plaintiff entering one of the Cheshire Homes. In cross examination he accepted that there was no such reference in any report he had written in this case and agreed that quote, I don't think I've discussed Cheshire Homes before today, unquote.... Mr also achieve forensic success in demonstrating that doctor knowledge of the recent medical and other expert reports in this case, over the last two to three years, were scant. That he had only looked through Mrs report on the day of his evidence and had taken five or ten minutes on Mrs report. I take full account of these defects in his evidence, but overall I found his experience of the likely care regimes introduced in cashes, in cases such as that of the plaintiff... to be of assistance. I know have to give my conclusions to the resolution of that conflicting and often very, very massive evidence as to how the plaintiff's care routine will change, when it will change and from where the carers will come. The starting point for these conclusions is the plaintiff's parents. I have nothing but the highest admiration for the quality and devotion of the work they have put into the care of the plaintiff over the last six and a half years. With the plaintiff's cooperation and the assistance of care, they have seen to it that the plaintiff was not to be institutionalised... and that she was to be brought back into a loving home and encouraged to be the thinking, intelligent and lively person she still is. However, I conclude that... notwithstanding that the strain of all that they have done, they at present, leave them to feel that they will transfer their physical caring duties to paid helpers in the immediate future. That will not happen immediately... or alternatively it will only happen for a short period of time. I conclude that they have done so much and so well they will find it hard to let go those duties. I conclude that after a short interregnum, which they have richly deserved and when the full regime of paid helpers may be set up, they will revert to taking an active part in the physical care of the plaintiff as well in the mental care in which they will have remained ever present. I consider they will accept the continued need for a night sleeper for now on but that within a short period of instituting a full paid up carer regime... they will revert to a regime which includes only one paid carer and will provide the further physical assistance between them. I find that will continue to be the position for the next ten years.... I take as a second period the ten years thereafter... until the parents are about their early seventies.... I conclude that it will probably ne be necessary for there to be a regime dependent on paid carers. I conclude that such carers will either be obtained from the crossroads organisation or something similar... or from private advertisement but not from a nursing agency. I take as the third period... that which follows upon the death or incapacity of the parents.... It is probable that it will be necessary to use the services of a nursing agency at this time... because the evidence satisfies me that the tasks of the advertising for, interviewing and then appointing carers on a continuing basis will not be one which the plaintiff can carry out, nor will her sister Clare by then probably married with a family and perhaps living elsewhere, be able to undertake such frequent duties. It follows that I must translate those conclusions into figures.... The cost of care for the first ten years from now on was taken by Mr on his calculations to amount to two hundred and thirteen thousand eight hundred and forty three pounds and ninety two pence, using a multiplier of four and a multiplicand of fifty three thousand four hundred and sixty pounds and ninety eight pence. These figures are of course calculated on the nursing agency rates. I have already indicated why I consider these rates not to be appropriate at this stage. It follows that my calculations make allowance for two carers, either both being paid workers, or alternatively a combination of one worker and the joint efforts of the parents as a second, as a second worker. For this care I award forty thousand pounds per year and take as a multiplier... the figure three to give a sum of one hundred and twenty thousand for the first period.... For the second period of ten years again I discount down the full agency rates, totalling fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds and ninety six pence year yearly, to the sum of forty thousand pounds annually and to apply a multiplier of six, producing the figure of two hundred and forty thousand pounds... for the second period. For the third period, that after the parents' death or incapacity, I do accept the reasonableness of employing a nursing agency... and therefore on this occasion I do accept Mr figure per year of sixty five thousand five hundred and thirty seven pounds and ninety six pence. I apply a multiplier of nine, it follows that the figure I allow for this period... is five hundred and thirty four thousand seven hundred and ninety seven pounds and sixty four pence... and the total cost of future care is therefore eight hundred and ninety four thousand seven hundred and ninety seven pounds and sixty four pence. Sub-heading, accommodation.... It was agreed on all sides that the present home of the family is not appropriate for the plaintiff, despite the extensive works which have necessarily been carried out to it. The cost of those alterations was forty two thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and eighty six pence, of which the local authority paid about a quarter, namely nine thousand... eight hundred and forty seven pounds. The remainder of thirty two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine pounds and eighty six pence was covered by an interim payment by the defendants. Argument has been addressed to me as to how that sum... should fall to be represented in the damages awarded, bearing in mind... that it has been substantially discharged by an interim payment... and that it will not inure to any log term benefit of the plaintiff.... Suffice it to say that I find that... had those alterations not been carried out when they were, it would not have been possible for the plaintiff to be discharged from Hunstead Park in May of nineteen ninety since her home... would not have been suitable for her. It follows that the continuing heavy costs of care at Hunstead Park would have gone on... and would have been a proper claim against this defendant. Again those alterations do not materially increase the value of the parent's home... it is not in any event their property. Evidence has been put before me of the most unusual arrangement come to, in relation to a possible ability of the parents to buy the property at half the sitting tenant valuation. The legal position in relation to the ag arrangement is uncertain... since it is not expressed to provide it for... in the will of Mrs who is, who is the very kindly elderly... neighbour who is the landlord, but is only contained in a letter of Mrs from whom I have not heard in evidence. Whether that intention of Mrs will continue once this case is over and the plaintiff is awarded damages of the size involved here, or whether an alternative beneficiary will be found, cannot be certain. In all the circumstances I consider that the proper course... is not to find if there's any windfall element of the plaintiff's parents and therefore to ignore such arguments. It follows that the cost of the alterations to the present home was a reasonable one to be born by the defendant and need not further be considered.... It is therefore to the sum which is to be awarded in relation to the plaintiff's future accommodation that I now turn. It is, and always has been, common ground. The plaintiff will have to move as soon as possible to move suitable... accommodation which will inevitably be a bungalow. However as with so many other things in this case, the specification for that bungalow has changed as the case has developed. Mr Hugh of the Wyvern Partnership in Devizes was the architect who gave expert evidence on the subject. He having specialised in designing and building accommodation for disabled people and elderly people since nineteen sixty nine. He spoke of the unsuitability of the present accommodation and his report said that quote, a minimum of five usable bedrooms is required, so it may be necessary to obtain a six bedroom property and this may be difficult to find. Bedrooms are required for Mr and Mrs Anna Jane, Clare and two for her carers. There is only one possible option for re- housing, which should be considered and that is to purchase a three bedroomed bungalow and add... an extension.... end quote. It is clear that he was considering that that extension would add two further bedrooms. Mr then gave figures for that operation which totalled fifty three thousand six hundred and thirty eight pounds and fifty five pence. However, as the evidence developed before him, it became clear that it was not necessary for the carers to sleep overnight and thus, plus they did not need bedrooms and therefore a four bedroomed bungalow with rooms for the plaintiff, her parents, the night sleeper and one for Clare or to be used as a spare room, would be sufficient. A number of estate agents property particulars were produced in evidence, none having any great relevance to the matter at issue... and seemingly collected at random when the claim related to a five or six bedroomed bungalow. Credit was given in the claim to the cost of whatever property the plaintiff would have purchased in any event had the accident not happened. I accept a figure of sixty thousand pounds as representing the plaintiff's notional house in such circumstances and a hundred and twenty thousand pounds as being the probably cost of the bungalow the plaintiff is to purchase. It follows that the difference that the subject of the claim is sixty thousand pounds.... Mr puts his claim for loss of interest on the extra capital employed using a multiplier of twenty at forty eight thousand two hundred and forty... pounds. This is a claim based on a four percent interest rate, not a two percent which would be used on the basis of and nineteen eighty eight three weekly report, law reports one two four seven. Mr justifies abandoning the approach in and on the basis that the decision was arrived at in a different housing market, when it was reasonable to conclude that the plaintiff's loss of interest on the capital employed would be exceeded by the increase in the value of the property. For my part, while I accept the housing market has changed radically since and was decided five years ago. I do not feel able to speculate as to whether or not it will recover sufficiently over the period in which we are dealing as to be again a and situation. I consider therefore despite Mr arguments to the contrary that the proper rate of interest to take is two percent. The proper figure per annum is therefore twelve hundred pounds to which a multiplier of has to be applied, making a total of twenty one thousand six hundred pounds. As to the cost of alterations, the difference in sums suggest it is wide ranging. Mr suggests the alterations needed to a four bedroomed bungalow will be minimal and allows only two thousand pounds for them. Mr deletes only a very, a few small items totalling just over three thousand pounds worth from the fifty three thousand six hundred and thirty eight pounds and fifty five pence sum claimed in Mr report. To include the building an extension thereby arriving at a total of more than fifty thousand pounds. I find that the evidential basis for Mr designing and building accommodation for disabled people and elderly is only one possible option for re-housing that should be considered and that is to purchase a three bedroomed bungalow and add an extension, quotes, has gone from this case. It is no longer that... I find that it is a four bedroomed bungalow which is required, with bedrooms of sufficient size in the case of the plaintiff and the plaintiff's parents and that work of alteration er to the bungalow will be necessary along the lines of Mr report but it will not involve the building of any extension. It follows that for the alterations to a four bedroomed bungalow... to include any necessary enlargement of a bathroom... come to a figure which I allow of twenty five thousand pounds. The additional expenditure totalling seven thousand five hundred and three pounds claimed B one nine seven... also includes... those items which would be incurred with any move and other items which would be involved with furnishing two extra rooms. Accordingly I reduce that figure to five thousand pounds. I further allow additional property insurance for a four bedroomed house at fifty seven pounds and forty six pence annually with an eighteen year multiplier which gives the total sum of one thousand and thirty four pounds twenty eight pence. The sums I award under the heading of accommodation therefore amount in total to fifty two thousand... six hundred and fort thirty four pounds twenty eight pence. Sub-heading loss of future earnings. Before her accident the plaintiff wanted to be a conference organiser and had intended to go into hospitality management as a career. To that end she had a place at Norwich City College to read for a B A in hospitality management subject to achieving the right grades in her A levels and achieving O level maths or its equivalent. She had in fact taken one A level, her law exam... but only in fact achieved a D... grade. So that... had she been able to take her history exam, she would have needed rather a good grade there, perhaps a better grade than her past performance suggested she would have attained. Again her mathematics O level was already a re-sit and again it might have been beyond her at that stage. Whilst recognising all her sporting and social successes I also have to recognise that she was not an academic high flyer. It is appropriate here that I quote from passages in the report of the headmaster Mr which was furnished to Norwich City College. These passages... I have already referred to as... being extremely indicative... of the wonderful girl that Anna Jane was before her accident and I have been very much in mind in the earlier part of my judgement. It is convenient to deal with them here while we are dealing with the question of loss of future earnings. As to the plaintiff's academic record... Mr said this. Anna's academic ability does not match her social skills which are outstanding, she is expected to gain a grade E in history at A level with the possibility of a D in law. I pause to indicate those would not have been sufficient grades to get her her place at Norwich, close quotations, close brackets. She is currently re-taking her mathics mathematics O level and hopes to obtain a grade C. She is diligent in all her studies with a determination to do as well as possible, while her powers of expression are adequate, she has a fine sense of initiative and can organise her material persuasively. In the next paragraph as to special aptitude Mr went on quote, there is an outstanding ability to make others feel that she is especially interested in their welfare and to put them at their ease. She is able to inspire and motivate other students to undertake community welfare tasks and she shows qualities of leadership as well as the ability to work as one of a team, close quotes. That assessment has only to be read to indicart to indicate what it fortended for future success in her chosen career.... At the further confidential statement by Mr runs to four pages... er, sorry, I'm sorry, runs to four paragraphs... and because of the insight into the plaintiff before the accident I will read it in its entirety. Quote, Anna is possibly the most socially competent member of a sixth form of more than two hundred students. Unfortunately this is not matched by her academic ability. She can expect to obtain an E in history at A level, possibly a D in law. She is re-taking mathematics O level in November and after private tuition is expected to gain a C grade. This is to tell only part of the story however... Anna is diligent in all her studies with a determination to do as well as possible, while her powers of expression are adequate she has a fine sense of initiative and within her limitations can organise her materials persuasively. In terms other than the academic, Anna is the ideal sixth former. She has played an active part in the sixth form committee, displaying remarkable skills in organising and motivating others. She was an outstanding publicity manager for a recent school drama production, enlisting the support of local businesses as well as that of other students. She has applied to the Barbican and Wembley Conference Centre in the hopes of obtaining work experience in her chosen career before starting the course of training. Anna undertakes all she does with a disarming cheerfulness and delightful charm. She has a most endearing, conscientious character. Throughout her school career Anna has been involved in a plethora of sporting clubs participating as fully in organisation terms... as she has as a sportswoman. Having talked sensibly to Anna about her chosen course of study, I am certain she is aware of the demands it will make on her. She sha she has also asked if her place could be deferred for a year... so that she may gain as much relevant experience as possible before taking up the course. She has considered this most carefully and all her tutors are agreed she would suit the course admirably. We are confident in recommending her strongly to you.... I say again... that it is clear those qualities... would have been idly suited, ideally suited to the career she wished... to embark upon.... As to what would have happened... without the event of the accident in her A level year by way of results, I regret I have to find as a fact... that she would not in the year of her accident, have achieved the grades necessary for her to take up a place at Norwich City College. I hasten to add however, that in my view that would not have materially altered her ability to go on to get a qualification and succeed in her chosen career. I find that the qualifications... she would have got was either the degree she hoped for or a Higher National Diploma for reasons which I shall now set out. The evidence of whether she would have taken up her place at Norwich in Autumn nineteen eighty seven or would have taken a year off and started in Autumn nineteen eight eight is equivocal. If anything it points, as is indicated in the report I've just read, to there being a year off. Equally sums for loss of earnings in that year are claimed in the plaintiff's claim. On the balance of probabilities therefore I find she would not have started her course until Autumn nineteen eighty eight. Thereby finishing her degree course in the Summer of nineteen ninety two. I find on the balance of probabilities that if she did not achieve the necessary results for entry to college in the Summer of nineteen eighty seven, she would have achieved such grades by using... the year Summer nineteen eighty seven to Summer nineteen eighty eight to re-site whatever was necessary. I'm satisfied that with her persistence and the loving encouragement of her parents, she would by then have achieved the necessary entrance qualifications. It follows that even by she would again have finished her degree in the Summer of nineteen ninety two.... If I'm wrong as to that, there was also open to her a further route to a degree qualification. That was to start a H N D course in the Autumn of nineteen eighty seven, completing the two years in the Summer of nineteen eighty nine. The evidence was that it was then possible to change from the H N D course to start the second year of the graduate course in what had been Autumn nineteen eighty nine. That route to a B A in hospitality and match mana management would have again ended with her graduation in the Summer of nineteen ninety two. I am satisfied that whichever route she followed the plaintiff had sufficient intelligence, personality and drive... to achieve the degree she wanted by the Summer of nineteen ninety two. Her career after graduation was the subject of expert evidence given by Mr for the plaintiffs. His qualifications were impressive and his evidence persuasive. I accept the level of attainance of which he spoke as being likely in the case of the plaintiff's career and I accept the sums which he spoke of as her potential earnings. No contrary evidence was called, although Mr evidence was clearly tested in cross examination. As at today's date, she was at the age of twenty, as she i, as at today's date she, at the age of twenty four, would have had a further working life of thirty six years.... I note that there is in train a proposal to change legislation... to provide for a later retirement date... for females to equate with those of the males. That is not a matter that I can take into... consideration other than to say that I am... satisfied that the proper figure for a multiplier for working life, er which I shall take in this case, is the multiplier of sixteen contended for by Mr. I take that multiplier and divide it into separate periods... of one, three and twelve respectively.... From Mr evidence I assessed her net year earnings up to her fourth year as nine thousand pounds and with a multiplier of one, award that sum. For the years from the fourth to the tenth I assess her net earnings at twelve thousand three hundred pounds and award the sum of thirty six thousand nine hundred pounds on a multiplier of three. For the third period in general management for the rest of her working life, I assess her annual salary at fifteen thousand nine hundred pounds net, to which I apply a multiplier of twelve to reach the figure of one hundred and ninety thousand eight hundred pounds. The total sum awarded for loss of future earnings is therefore two hundred and thirty six thousand seven hundred pounds. To that sum must be added under a different heading of damages, past loss of earnings for the period when she would have entered the catering industry. Namely some time in the Summer or Autumn of nineteen ninety two until today's date in December nineteen ninety three. I accept from Mr that she would have been a trainee manager for some part of that time and I assess her salary as being something like seven thousand pounds net. I consider that she would have found a job by early Autumn and therefore the sum must be more than a, nearly a year's earnings and I assess it at eight thousand pounds.... I do not make any award for the sums claimed from disposable income for her employment during the said, the alleged year off, since I'm not satisfied she would have had a year off, or would have had any disposable income even if she had taken that year. Again, I do not feel she would have had any disposable income from her grant at college or part time earnings. The total sum awarded in relation to future loss of earnings is therefore two hundred and thirty six thousand seven hundred pounds and that for past loss of earnings is eight thousand pounds making a total of forty four thousand seven hundred pounds. Sub-heading transport.... It is accepted that the plaintiff has a need for a new vehicle to accommodate her and her wheelchair and to replace the parent's Volkswagen. It is also accepted that the Nissan Prairie is a suitable vehicle for the plaintiff's needs. There is a dispute as to whether the cost of air-conditioning on that vehicle is property claimable, but I hold that in view of the plaintiff's physical needs as to temperature, air-conditioning is reasonably necessary. The cost of the Nissan Prairie is agreed at twenty two thousand six hundred and eight five. Mr claims for a five year replacement cycle, but I consider the vehicle is likely to have a lower mileage than is usual and that the replacement cycle should be one of eight years. I apply the A A schedule of motoring costs, B one eight one, for an engine capacity of two thousand and one to three thousand C C, of three thousand two hundred and eighty eight pounds and eighty eight pence and subtract from that figure the corresponding figure for an engine capacity of one thousand and one to fourteen hundred C C, namely one thousand two hundred and fifty three pounds and thirteen pence for the vehicle I find that she would otherwise have run.

[speaker001:] And subtract from that figure... the corresponding figure for an engine capacity of one thousand and one to fourteen hundred C C, namely one thousand two hundred and fifty three pounds and thirteen pence for the vehicle I find she would otherwise have run. To achieve a figure of two thousand and thirty five pounds seventy five pence for annual depreciation. I allow six hundred and ninety two pounds fifty five pence for standing charges excluding depreciation and thus these two heads total the sum of two thousand seven hundred and twenty eight pounds and forty pence. To that must be added the running costs of a, at a si at a similarly discounted rate deduced from the A A tables of nine p, nine point four eight tenths of a mile. I assess the annual mileage as six thousand which then gives a total for running costs of five hundred and sixty eight pounds eighty pence. The total for all running costs is therefore three thousand two hundred and ninety seven pounds and twenty pence. Applying a multiplier of eighteen to that figure, I arrive at a figure of fifty nine thousand, three hundred and forty nine pounds and sixty pence, which is the award I would make. It is neither the ninety seven thousand, nine hundred and fifty seven pounds claim by Mr... nor the forty seven thousand one hundred and eighty five pound figure contended for by Mr... but I find it a fair figure for the cost of the plaintiff's transport in the years ahead. Sub-heading medical expenses. On evidence before me I find that the plaintiff will require regular physiotherapy, speech therapy and hydrotherapy throughout her life. I heard evidence of the one domi domiciliary visit per week of the physiotherapist had been stopped in September because of lack of resources. I heard evidence that regular speech therapy at six monthly intervals was necessary for the plaintiff, particularly in view of her dribbling and choking problems. Equally I'm satisfied that her hydrotherapy is both reasonably necessary and beneficial. It follows that for si, physiotherapy I award the sum of one thousand seven hundred and sixty eight pounds per annum. For hydrotherapy a similar sum and for speech therapy the sum of two hundred and twenty five pounds per annum, totalling three thousand seven hundred and sixty one pounds per annum. Applying a multiplier of eighteen, the total sum is sixty seven thousand six hundred and ninety eight pounds, which is the sum I would award.... Sub-heading... administration costs. I am satisfied that the plaintiff is in a state where it is reasonably necessary to provide for the costs of setting up and maintaining a trust to handle the plaintiff's financial interests over the years ahead. The costs involved are agreed at the sum of eight hundred and eighty one pounds and twenty five pence to set up the trust and an annual cost of three thousand two hundred and thirty one pounds twenty five pence. Applying the multiplier of eighteen to that figure, one arrives at a figure... of fifty eight thousand one hundred and sixty two pounds and fifty pence which when the additional costs are added in... comes to the total of fifty nine thousand and forty three pence, I'm sorry, fifty nine thousand forty three pounds and seventy five pence which is the figure I would award under this heading.... Sub-heading, agreed figures.... The figures claimed under paragraph two C of the plaintiff's schedule for transport costs are agreed at six thousand seven hundred and ninety four pounds. Those at two E for the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at thirteen thousand four hundred and forty seven pounds and ninety pence. Those at three E of the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at a total of a hundred and forty four thousand six hundred and fifty nine pounds... and fifty nine pence. I should also itemise claims which were made under two heads which have been satisfied by interim payment. There was a claim for forty two thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and eighty six pence for the cost of alterations to the plaintiff's home already carried out as I have indicated already, that was discharged by payment and by local authority grant of nine thousand eight hundred and forty seven pounds and an interim payment of thirty two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine pounds eighty six pence. There was also a claim for medical treatment and therapy... in the sum of eighty three thousand three hundred and seventy nine pounds and twenty six pence which was paid by a further interim payment. Neither of those sums of course has to be taken into account in any of the mathematics which now have to be done to total up the awards which I would make.... The addition of the individual awards which would be made in the course of the aju this judgement... achieve the total figure of one million eight hundred and fourteen thousand six hundred and fifty two pounds and twenty eight pence.... From this sum... there must be deducted a total figure... of two hundred and ten thousand seven hundred and seventy eight pounds and ten pence. To give credit for other interim payments totalling one hundred and twenty one thousand five hundred pounds. For interest on interim payments totalling seventeen thousand eight hundred and seventy one pounds and thirty pet pence and for statutory benefits on the relative multi relevant multiplier of eighteen, coming to a total... of seventy one... thousand four hundred and sixteen pounds and eighty pence.... When those credits are deducted from the total figure for the awards covered by this judgement... the overall total figure... would amount to one million six hundred and three thousand, eight hundred and seventy four pounds and eighteen pence. I stop this judgement at this stage for two reasons. These figures do not allow any sum for interest and therefore it may be that calculations will have to be made by council to include that figure or alternatively... I am informed... that both parties wish to consider the possibility of the incorporation of this judgement into a structured settlement. That is not a matter where the parties are sufficiently advanced for it to be addressed to me at this stage. It follows that I expressly do not give judgement at any figure at this stage but indicate merely... what the findings are which I have made and what the sums which those findings lead to, are.... If there is to be... a time taken for a further hearing before me... in relation to the question of interest and or a structured settlement, I regret that the parties will have to follow me, not purely from Chelmsford to London but thereafter to Maidstone. I am sure that the arrangement can be made and er I conclude what I have to say... at this stage. [speaker002:] My Lord I am very grateful for that. My learned friends and I will therefore er seek to resolve as soon as we can, the matters that are outstanding. I know that everybody involved in the case is conscious that matters should not be left in the air, although the amendment to leave the cost of the. I now speak for my learned friend when I say that he will expert that. Er, My Lord we will... obviously calculate such interest that has to be calculated er and figures have to be sorted out and will be agreed if that is appropriate, er and we'll also consider whether it's proper er to seek to achieve a structured settlement. [Hidden:] Very well Mr I'm grateful. Do not feel at all shy about seeking to correct any figures that you think are... perhaps in error. My fingers on my calculator are not as nimble as they should be. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] My Lord m may I add one further matter, er, My Lord may I say on behalf of the family er the that your Lordship's comments will be very gratefully received... er, neither Mr or Mrs, although they've sought recognition for what they've done for their daughter, they did it out of their fond love for her but nevertheless having such a and such comment from your Lordship will be very, very good. [Hidden:] Well that's good of Mr. I don't think... there was any word that I said that wasn't fully deserved by both... the parents and their other daughter Clare. [speaker002:] My Lord the the final matter is, my learned friends and I agreed that it would be proper for there to be a further interim payment... er in the sum of twenty five thousand pounds. [Hidden:] Yes Mr [speaker001:] We consent to that and your Lordship one direction to help us when we come to calculating interest is one of the earliest figures that your Lordship came to and it was dealing with care to date. [Hidden:] Yes. [speaker001:] Your Lordship split into two... periods. The first one was done on an hourly basis, it's the second one, where your Lordship applied the multiplier of two and half to a figure taken... from Miss calculations... of... of thirty six thousand pounds one hundred and fifty.... [Hidden:] Er, Mrs figures my [speaker001:] Sorry my Lord, er Mrs figures, yes [Hidden:] Yes, thirty six thousand one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. [speaker001:] My Lord I [Hidden:] Multiplied by three point five... which I... brought to a figure of a hundred and twenty six thousand five hundred and twenty seven pounds and fifty six pence. [speaker001:] My Lord the only point of interest and it's really one that I took in the of the submission is that if you use an up to date nineteen ninety three figure for calculating it when it was first back to years three and a half, two and a half and... one and a half years ago, then intre it wouldn't be fair if interest is awarded on that as well because in a sense the... increase in the figure that inflation and the increased cost of living has produced because you use an up to date figure, probably equates with the interest and we can the figure an up to date one to avoid just that otherwise it would be getting the figures for each of those years and then working out interest. That your Lordship would direct, it would be in our task that that figure shouldn't have interest added to it because of the way in which it was approached. [Hidden:] I think that's probably a logical conclusion because of the way the figure was reached in submissions. Mr what do you say? [speaker002:] My Lord my initial reaction is it sounds logical as well and I I wondered if if what my learned friend has said i if and also what your Lordship's initial view is, if the matter can be left in that way er i if after further reflection, it seems right then of course that's the way that we will approach it. I if there is any problem that can be mentioned it won't take more than thirty seconds I would have thought. [Hidden:] Shall we leave it that I will consider making a direction at the next hearing in relation to that figure... and the question of any interest thereon... but will defer... any such er decision until you've had time to consider it. [speaker002:] My Lord I'm very grateful. [Hidden:] There isn't I think anything else that can be done... this afternoon.... In that case may I apr clude... by wishing the parties and their advisors a very good Christmas.... [speaker001:] claiming for damages for breach of contract and your negligence against their former solicitors in relation to their handling of the purchase of a business by the plaintiff in late nineteen eighty five but all the say is on the nineteenth of October of nineteen eighty nine er my Lord the matter is complex. It has er generated a great deal of documentation er which I hope that your Lordship has with him now in court, er, the documentation has been divided for trial into two parts, part A and part B. With your Lordship's leave erm, my learned friend and I have discussed erm, how your Lordship may best be helped in this matter. Erm what I have in mind to do my Lord, is to open the case now for you to indicate the scope of erm and will you then know, agreed that we would invite you to adjourn that for some time to enable you do some reading of the witness statement and expert's reports because of course they are long and that would take considerable amount of with your Lordship is able to familiarise himself with the matter which is contained therein.... Er, and if your Lordship is happy to do that then I can open it now and... indicate what the case is about and invite you to take some time. [Hidden:] Thank you. [speaker001:] My Lord, part A erm of the documentation contains three separate bundles. Bundle one is the pleadings bundle, which I hope your Lordship's had an opportunity to glance at er this morning, part A trial bundle one is the pleadings bundle. My Lord the pleadings bundle runs to almost a hundred pages erm, this is due principally to the fact that there are something like four sets of particulars to statement of claim which have been served over the years er where the plaintiffs have set out their claim in er in detail. My Lord the second bundle, part A bundle two contains the witness statements. There are statements from both the plaintiffs. Does your Lordship have the... it should be er... a small red file... bundle that looks rather like that my Lord. [Hidden:] Part A [speaker001:] Part A trial bundle two it should say on the front of it. [Hidden:] Yes thank you. [speaker001:] Thank you. The the trial bundle two contains the witness statements in the action and your Lordship will see erm on the indexing page that there are statements from David and Jean, the plaintiffs. There is then a statement from er a witness to be called on bail, June.... There is then a statement from Peter erm who was the partner with the said firm with whom the plaintiffs dealt at all the relevant times in relation to this matter. Er, he too obviously is. And finally there is a statement from a woman called Sarah who was at the time of these events, church and her statement can be read because there is nothing in dispute in it. [Hidden:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm... my Lord that trial bundle two in part A, my Lord, trial bundle three of part A erm, comprises expert evidence from two accountants... er one from each side... and my Lord the er... evidence of the erm plaintiff's accountant is that of Mr whose report appears in this bundle and the defendant's. [Hidden:] This is B 1 is it? [speaker001:] I'm sorry. [Hidden:] B 1 [speaker001:] This is er part A bundle three. Does it say part A bundle three upon it? [Hidden:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Yes, thank you. [Hidden:] Well that's, that's part A... no part B. [speaker001:] It's part A bundle three. [Hidden:] That's it. [speaker001:] Yes.... There is a report from Mr from Peat Marwick who is the plaintiff's expert... and there is then a report from Mr from Coopers and Lybrand who is er the defendant's expert. Erm, both erm experts are to give evidence before and my Lord included in this bundle with their reports are the documents to which either one or both of these experts have in guard when preparing their reports. Er, my Lord you will see that there are cash flow forecasts which relate to the business er back statements for the plaintiffs... er and then there are... documents and papers which are referred to in Mr report and finally on the final page of the index... there are the principal sources of information... for Mr report.... My Lord for convenience sake so that everyone can refer... immediately to both documents when the experts are giving evidence, they are all in the expert bundle. [Hidden:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Well then er there is the documentation which is er entitled part B and part B which is also er contained in three... files... one, two and three, comprises... what are essentially all the relevant documentary er evidence, which is arranged chronologically and events run, as your Lordship will see in due course, from approximately nineteen, mid nineteen eighty five through to the end of nineteen eighty six, beginning of nineteen eighty seven in the. My Lord erm, just to tell your Lordship what the scope of the bundle is. Bundle one er starts in er, in fact in nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four with documents which deal with the er first plaintiff... previous employment and his general financial situation before then turning to nineteen eighty five and to the events that led up to his purchase of the business around which this litigation centres, in September of nineteen eighty five... and the documents in that first one will go up to mid October in nineteen eighty five. They continue then in bundle two from er mid October to mid August nineteen eighty six and the final bundle... takes the picture up to the end of the relevant matters in this case er in the early part of nineteen eighty seven after the business was re-sold by the plaintiffs at a loss. if I can er... start first of all with the pleadings bundle... and with the statement of claim which erm... er sets out all the er upon which the plaintiffs and your Lordship will see from paragraph one that this claims relate to the purchase by the plaintiff... of a lease of a restaurant and wine bar business at... and er it is alleged that the defendants were retained by the plaintiffs to advise them... in relation to that transaction in early September of nineteen eighty five... and that the contract between them er contained the usual implied required for the defendant to exercise or deal with the proper and care in relation to their conduct of the transaction and er to the advice given to the plaintiffs throughout. And my Lord the fact that their retainer and the existence of those implying terms are admitted in the amended statement which starts on page thirty eight of the bundle.... My Lord on page three of the pleadings bundle [Hidden:] My my pleadings bundle isn't paged, but er [speaker001:] I'm sorry my Lord. [Hidden:] I said my pleadings bundle isn't paged. [speaker001:] Oh I'm sorry my Lord then. [Hidden:] But erm, no doubt we can put that right. [speaker001:] have difficulties but we can certainly provide you with a... er numbered bundle. see that er... paragraph three of the statement of claims sets out the history of the transaction a and pleads the relevant facts.... My Lord by way of facts the first named plaintiff Mr is now... er fifty eight years of age and he and his wife live in Brentwood er both are named as plaintiffs because their joint monies were expended in the purchase of the, this business and they were both parties to the purchase erm but it is clear that Mr in fact did all the negotiations for the purchase and the planning and the running of this business and he is... er the prime witness on behalf of the plaintiff. He's a man who erm is qualified in the field of computer sciences and if your Lordship will hear has worked throughout his life in the fields of computers, banking... and er in March of nineteen eighty five he left employment with a company known as Data Logic Limited where he had been employed as a banking consultant... and decided at that stage er on a change of career... erm and he was looking principally to acquire a wine bar, restaurant, country house hotel, something of that nature and er you will hear that after some early disappointments in... the earlier part of nineteen eighty five when deals that er... were on the horizon for premises in Oxfordshire and then in Chichester... erm in early September the plaintiffs er saw and liked the wine bar in and offered the price of, the asking price of seventy five thousand pounds with stock er which was accepted. it is clear from the statement of claim that the... er plaintiffs retained the defendants from about the ninth of September to act in relation to the purchase of this wine bar which was then known as er... the plaintiffs were obtaining finance from the National Westminster Bank in order to purchase this business... and the plaintiff Mr had been engaged in long standing discussions with his bank from the earlier part of nineteen eighty five with a view to er... agreeing financing facilities for the purchase of the various opportunities that preven present themselves and er... he will say and that he makes clear in his witness statement erm that he certainly had understood that from these negotiations the National Westminster Bank were prepared to provide the financing that he required to run this business. Now on the seventeenth of September Mr met Peter on the defendant's firm er for the first time at his office, where they had er a general discussion about the business and about what needed to be done in order to secure it... and er the plaintiffs at that stage told Peter that there should be er no problems over finance as he understood the bank were willing to assist... and at that stage he wanted to move as quickly as possible to exchange contracts on the business erm, for two reasons. Principally there were at that time other interested parties in the premises er and also erm Mr saw it as essential er that er they were in and running the business er well before the time of the Christmas trade which was rapidly approaching then, then it being... late August... and er he wanted to make sure that they were in in in time for them to be able to take advantage of those bookings that they anticipated. The meeting of the seventeenth of September at the defendants offices is admitted by the defendant erm, but there is no admission as to what was said at the meeting. Now er on the Friday of that week, the twentieth of September my Lord, erm Peter wrote a letter to Mr er dealing with the matters related to the preliminary enquiries and so the documents from the vendors solicitors they have pleaded in the statement of claim er that there was no er... reference to or discussion of conditions in the contract of sale and in particular no reference to condition twenty two two, a national condition of sale which appears in paragraph three two of the statement of claim... and which was a condition which er gave the purchaser the right to the contract in the event of the non-completion by the vendor after the service of a special notice to complete.... Er... the er facts set out in that paragraph are admitted by the defendant... er... in relation to that letter. My Lord the er case moves on there over the page now to the twenty fourth of September and on that day Mr was notified erm by his bank... on the telephone that head office had approved the finance proposal in principal and as a result of that Mr then telephone Peter, the defendant, told him that the financing for this deal had been approved in principal and Mr asked Mr to provide a bankers draft of some seven and a half thousand pounds in order to enable exchange to take place as a matter of urgency. The matters obviously moved fairly rapidly because the parties were then almost ready to exchange contracts. On Wednesday, the following day, the twenty fifth of September, there was then a a meeting between both the plaintiffs and Mr at the defendant's offices when the contract for sale was signed by both plaintiffs. The bank draft was er erm and it appeared that at that stage Mr was told by the er by Mr that the landlord's consent to the assignment of this lease erm, had still not be obtained. That is admitted it, the defendants also erm that Mr had told them that he, the bank had approved the loan facilities an and that he wanted to move quickly to er exchange of contracts. The plaintiff's case is that despite the difficulty with the landlord's consent at the time the contracts were signed, it was made clear to them by Mr at this stage that that ought to be a formality and no one anticipated to expect this. So my Lord on the twenty sixth of September, a Thursday, contracts were exchanged er and that completion date was then fixed at the eighteen of October and those facts are admitted, there is no dispute about those. [Hidden:] And deposit was paid was it. [speaker001:] Deposit was paid my Lord. Now my Lord it's at the beginning of October things start to go wrong in... erm and as it is pleaded on the first of October er, the plaintiffs were told the, in correspondence from the bank, that the financial terms that the finances that had been approved in principal, were only going to be available if security was offered in respect of a number of properties. One of which was the property in Frinton which was owned jointly by Mr and his step mother who was an elderly lady who was then residing in that er property... and er around that time on the first of October Mr er telephoned Mr and er... told him about that but at that time, was not anticipating that there would be an difficulties about the security on Frinton for these... he had always, added his case, made it perfectly clear to the man at the National Westminster Bank with whom he was dealing, Mr that that property was not a property which er could er be offered as security because of the joint ownership and er while in conversation with the bank he understood that this letter had been sent and Mrs had been on holiday and that it was simply oversight on the part of the bank at this stage and that all would well after Mrs returned, which was expected in two weeks time. That, my Lord, the matter moves on to the fifteenth of October on which day er the plaintiff together with Mr attended Richmond Magistrates Court and obtained a protection order from the justices in relation to the premises... and then on the sixteenth of October erm... this was the day when things started to go very badly wrong for the plaintiff because Mr by now had returned from his holiday and come back cautiously, he apparently attended after his holiday... and on this day Mr was told that, by Mrs that it was not possible to proceed with the financial er dealings that had been agreed between them unless the Frinton property was offered as security. Now at this stage er it is the plaintiff's case that Mr er considered that this caused major financial problems, because the property at Frinton was simply not one that was open to him to offer as security, it was clear that the bank would now as he saw it, on the deal that he understood that he'd struck and he knew that without the bank's help he would not be able to er proceed with this purchase and operate he business in the way he had wished to. [Hidden:] How, how much was the bank going to provide. [speaker001:] My Lord the started sum of money originally, sixty thousand pounds was the total loan and there were further overdraught facilities and and it's the plaintiff's case that without it it was simply not going to be manageable and as a result of that having thought carefully about erm, position it is his case that he rang Peter, told him that there were major problems in the financing of the deal and asked him if he could get him out of the contract because the finance he anticipated was no longer going to be available... and it was his case that Peter advised him that there was no way out because contracts had been exchanged, er Mr was told very clearly that he was committed legally now to the deal and that he'd better try and rearrange some finances since clearly they were moving towards er the completion date. Well that's since denied by the defendant and that is a factual, major factual dispute which is obviously what you'll have to decide. My Lord the er plaintiff Mr er telephoned the National Westminster Bank the following day in order to er make an appointment to discuss the finances further and an appointment was made for the twenty second of October. Now on the Friday, the eighteenth of October, er Peter telephoned the plaintiff's home to speak to Mr erm but on this occasion he spoke to his assistant June... and er, she was someone who at this stage was involved in the planning and the running of the business together with acting very much as his personal assistant... and Mr had a conversation with June on the telephone in which he told her that he had received a letter from the solicitors which indicated that they had not yet, er, the landlords er licence to assign had not yet been given. It is admitted that there was er such a letter... and er... on this occasion er Miss evidence is that having heard that the landlords consent for the assignment still hadn't been obtained, asked Mr again whether it was possible in view of that, er to withdraw from the contract... and er it is case that again Mr repeated the advice he'd given to Mr two days earlier and told her that it was not possible and that again is denied. On the same day, the eighteenth of October, Mr came back and spoke to Miss about this telephone call and he rang Peter in the afternoon of that Friday and he asked again if it was possible to withdraw because of the landlord's failure to consent to the er assignment and again er after what will er be described as a fairly easy discussion between the plaintiff and er Mr, er he was told very clearly that it was not possible for him to withdraw, contracts had been exchanged and he was advised that what the landlords er failure to consent did was in fact er provide Mr with more breathing space in order to obtain proper funding and re-arrange his finances... er, that again is denied.... My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that as a result of the advice that he was given by Mr er it was clear to him that he had no way out of this contract, that he was committed to it and that he had no choice but to proceed with the matter and there was then er further discussion on the telephone on this day, Friday, between Mr and Mr to where they were going here and Mr said he would now write to the plaintiff setting out what his options were to him and the letter than was sent by Mr was dated the twenty second of October and the letter, the relevant terms of this letter are set out in a statement of claim expressing at paragraph three... eleven of this statement saying... and of course er that is admitted by the er defendant.... Your Lordship er will see from paragraph three eleven that what the letter er says is [reading] as we discussed on the telephone, the advantage of the landlord's objection is that it gives you time to put your finances in order, if the licence was forthcoming now you would be obliged to complete the transaction which at this stage you are unable to do. The courses of action open to you following letter are as follows. One, application could be made to the court that Mr the landlord is unreasonably withholding consent to the lease, if the court finds that this is in fact the case they will permit the assignment of the lease to you, not withstanding the landlord's objection. If such application was to be made to the court I feel that further references to your business acumen would have to be supplied beforehand. Two, the could proceed without the landlord's licence, it would then be up to the landlord to apply to the court to have the lease forfeited when you could arrange the defence that you were a reasonable tenant and as such the assignment should have been allowed to permit this course of action but of course you are using bank money as well as your own and the bank would be unhappy to lend money in a situation where there was a possibility, albeit a slight, that the lease would be forfeited. Three, you could arrange payment of the deposit as requested, possibly for a certain period of time and possibly for a smaller amount than demanded, this would no doubt by in the process of the licence. Four, you could do nothing at all and leave any course of action to the solicitors comfortable then you should be using their best endeavours to obtain the licence. []... Now... at about the time that that letter was written on the twenty second of October er Mr had the meeting at the National Westminster Bank that had been arranged between himself and a Mrs and it is clear from er this meeting that the bank would no longer er, given that the Frinton property was not to be offered as security, prepared to offer the sum, the substantial sums that they had originally agreed to do and they were now only prepared to offer very much smaller sums and the plaintiff's case is that the only way that they were going to be able to proceed to complete on this matter was er by selling their homes, their family home at and it is the plaintiff's case, certainly in relation to er the losses that they have sustained as a result of the breach of contract, alleged in this case, that er if they had not been forced to go ahead to complete on this deal they would not have been required to sell their family home. the bank were prepared to... pay for the business to be purchase only on condition that the home, that the family home was then sold and the proceeds were given straight to the bank, so with that eighty thousand pounds of equity in the property and the purchase fund for the business was about twenty five thousand pounds. Now at that stage my Lord Mr er telephoned Mr on the afternoon of the twenty second of October and it's his case that he explained what had happened at the meeting of the bank to him and er asked him again, in view of the fact that was having to sell him home, if it was possible to withdraw from the contract and it is the plaintiff's case that he pointed out to Mr er quite definitely and quite clearly on the telephone, on this day, er that without er the funding that he had required to run this business er he could only see that this was going to be potentially disastrous for him er and once again, my Lord as he said this was a fairly heated conversation and er the plaintiff was told by Mr once again that there was no way out for him and he should now concentrate all his efforts on achieving completion, er and once again we were.... My Lord er in paragraph three fourteen of the statement of claim there is an important fact er which is a fact that is admitted by the defendant which is this that... had the defendant on the plaintiff's behalf taken the opportunity which was open to the plaintiff by virtue of national condition twenty two which should say and served a special notice to complete upon the vendors on about the eighteenth or the twenty second of October, the contract would in fact have been rescinded on the thirteenth or the nineteenth of November nineteen eighty five and the plaintiff would therefore have been able to get out of the contract and that, as I say, is admitted in the amended dissent. What is denied by the defendant and what is the issue of trial is that they deny that they were ever instructed by Mr er to save such a measure or that it would have been appropriate to serve them or that at any stage Mr ever asked to be advised on any way open to him to get out of the contract er as alleged. It is the defendant's case that the plaintiff was at all times, pushing to proceed as a matter of urgency on the deal. So as I say there is clearly a substantial er factual dispute between the parties as to what was said on these relevant telephone conversations. Now my Lord as is er then made clear in a statement of claim paragraph three fifteen erm between the twenty third of October and about the twenty second of November the plaintiff then acting upon the advice of Peter that it was not possible to withdraw on this contract, did endeavour to complete upon the deal as soon as possible, very much with the timing in his mind and eventually after some toing and froing which er will be demonstrated in the course of the evidence, agreement was reached with the landlord for his consent to the assignment to be given er on condition that there was payment of some advance rent by the plaintiff. That was done and completion actually took place is pleaded as the twenty second of November, the er defendants admit completion took place on or about the twenty fifth of November. So it appears that completion was around that time although the date is not er, is not certain.... My Lord er, those are the facts which er form the background to the allegations of breach of contract with negligence that are named in paragraph four and five of the statement of claim. My Lord the paragraph four of statement of claim contains the allegations of breach of contract... and paragraph five makes effectively exactly the same allegations but under the heading of negligence in breach of the deal of the care owed to the plaintiffs by the defendant. Now there are two areas where it is alleged that the defendants were in breach of their professional duty to exercise skill and care in advising the plaintiffs throughout their handling of this transaction. Firstly, it is alleged that there was a failure to advise the plaintiff er before the contracts for this business were exchanged, as to the necessity for ensuring that there was adequate finance to er complete the purchase granted on terms that the plaintiff could meet and which were set out clearly in a letter of offer from the bank and there was a failure to advise the plaintiffs as to the risk of relying upon oral offers of financing from the bank. It is, it has been pleaded at various points throughout paragraph three in reciting the history, that at the various meetings between Peter and Mr that no advice of this nature was given and it is the plaintiff's case that failure to give advice of this nature, even if they did not ask for it, which they did not, was a breach of the professional duty owed to them by the defendant. My Lord it is pleaded as being a matter of er common practice amongst solicitors in this kind of situation er for such advice to be given and my Lord er... if you turn to the folio of their particulars... erm... which were given I think it's the final book, what are called the voluntary further and better particulars which in fact were the final particulars... er given towards the end of the bundle of documents.... This is this is further and better particulars we're just finding the document in the bundle.... We undoubtedly your Lordship because er I'll be referring to er one or two other parts of the further and better [pages turning]. [Hidden:] Thank you. [speaker001:] It's page eighty two my Lord.... and on page er eighty two... the erm plaintiffs were after perhaps in matters which it is alleged the defendant should have appertained relating to the financing of this transaction, prior to exchanging contracts and the base of the claim is that as set out in the on page eighty two that the defendants should have appertained whether the plaintiffs had a defined source of funds upon terms which the plaintiffs were able to meet. This they did not do and they should have ascertained by sticking writing into the National Westminster Bank to confirm that sufficient funds were available for the completion of the proposed transaction and that the terms upon which this finance was to be made available had been agreed.... My Lord the defence admit that no such advice was given to the plaintiff but they deny that they were under any duty er to give such advice and it is pleaded in the that er the defendants will rely upon the fact that Mr er held himself out to be er... an experienced man of business and as such it was not necessary on their part to advise him upon the adequacy and arrangements for the financing of the operation.... My Lord that is in dispute, it is in dispute... firstly that in fact as a matter of fact, Mr had ever held himself out to be an experienced man er of business, that Peter believed him to be as such, er and in any event, even if he was to seem as such it is the plaintiff's case that there was still a duty upon the solicitor in that situation. [Hidden:] Well the solicitors couldn't very have written to the, to the bank could they? As it is alleged here. [speaker001:] Well my Lord it would be the plaintiff's case. [Hidden:] If they had done the bank would have written back and said mind your own business. [speaker001:] Well, my Lord, the plaintiff's case would be... that had the solicitor ascertained from the plaintiff that it was alright for him to just check with the bank this could easily have been done, and if the bank had given authority by the plaintiff for. [Hidden:] So really it's understood in these allegations that you're saying that... the solicitors should have... invited your client to provide them with the authority to... to write to the bank. [speaker001:] Yes, after. [Hidden:] And get independent... independent confirmation... from the bank, independently from their own client. [speaker001:] Either that my Lord or, er as it's pleaded in in the alternative, should have advised the plaintiff to do that, to get that confirmation in writing... and in any event, even if it is alleged as the defendant... say... that the er that Mr is an experienced man of business and both these plaintiffs were purchasing the business, er and Mrs it is the plaintiff's case was clearly entitled to that advice in addition.... Well that is the first area er in which it is alleged the breach of duty on the part of the defendant. The second area is the failure to advise the plaintiff as to their right to rescission of the contract in the event of the landlord's licence not being obtained and the vendor being unable to complete. My Lord the plaintiff's case, as you can appreciate, is that Mr had very clearly, on several occasions in mid October, er requested a way out of this contract... there was a way out er under the terms of the contract by service of special notice to complete... erm and yet he had been told that there was no way that they could withdraw from the contract. Er, the plaintiff's case is that there was a duty to advise them of the opportunity er which arose, from the refusal of the landlords to grant a licence for assignment erm and that their failure er to er... give that er advice was in breach of duty and my Lord on page eighty five of the pleadings summary... er page eighty five my Lord again er... in answer to the the request for what advise it is alleged the defendant should give the plaintiff on the twenty second of October nineteen ninety five, at the top of the page. The answer is that the advice that should have been given in the circumstances that prevailed on that date was, that if the plaintiffs wished to ignore the contract then they were entitled to serve a completion notice which because the vendor was unable to obtain that would have meant that the vendor would be unable to comply with the completion notice and accordingly the contract would have come to an end.... Now my Lord the defendants say of course, that they were never asked by the plaintiff to get him out of the contract so that the duty er never arose. But they also say in the alternative that that since the plaintiffs themselves were... at this time by mid to late October of nineteen eighty five, not ready or able to complete it would have been improper... erm... for the defendant to advise the plaintiffs to serve a special notice to complete and my Lord the question that therefore arises er whether, even if that were correct, er and it's not admitted that it is, that exonerates the defendants from given the advice... er and whether they should still have advised the plaintiff erm of the opportunity which was open to him, that the plaintiff could if necessary take that course himself or be advised to go er elsewhere and be advised independently is er this is, this the point of the matter which he regarded as improper and was not willing to do it on the plaintiff's behalf. The case of the plaintiff is that he should still have been told and advised about the er availability of this provision, particularly when he was clearly er fearful of the financial consequences to him of completing this and when he was expressing those fears forcefully er to Mr.... My Lord er obviously all the allegations of breach of contract and negligence are denied... and er in paragraph six of the statement of claim... on page nine. The plaintiffs claim that they suffered loss and damage as a result of the defendants breach of contract... er my Lord erm... essentially having completed on this purchase they then tried er to run the business financially and in accordance with the terms of the lease, erm but it's all been the plaintiff's evidence that right from the start erm he was well prepared that there was insufficient working capital and insufficient funds er to run this business properly and efficiently and indeed shortly after purchasing it advice was sought about er re-sale... and er if your Lordship looks at page eighty eight of the pleadings bundle which twenty one... the plaintiff's case on page eighty eight, the top of the page my Lord.... It is said that the plaintiffs endeavoured to run the business because of the negligent advice received by them from Mr on the twenty second of October the plaintiffs were unable to withdraw from the contract. They therefore faced no option other than to make a go of the business. The alternative... was either not to commence running the business or to cease running the business shortly after completion which would have meant in either case that the landlord would foreclose on the lease... and the plaintiff's investment in the business would have been entirely lost. Faced with that dilemma the plaintiffs chose to endeavour to run the business to an early sale and that is what they did my Lord and er the premises were put back on the market... er in the early part of nineteen eighty six... and er... it is pleaded that er... in in paragraph six statement of claim, that in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead er because there were unreasonable delays on the part of the purchaser erm and er the deal fell through but then again in July... er after the business had ceased trading, another buyer was found and then there was a lengthy period of negotiations... at the conclusion of which the sale price was reduced because at that stage the plaintiff's landlord was going to increase the rent er and the plaintiffs were at that stage under threat of forfeiture... and eventually contracts were exchanged on the sixth of November nineteen eighty six... the sale price being eighty one thousand five hundred... and er... completion was on the fifth of December nineteen eighty six. My Lord the er plaintiffs allege that they suffered considerable losses as a result of er their completion of er the purchase of this business. Their case is that if they had been properly and correctly advised as they were entitled to be under the contract, they would not have proceeded to exchange or to completion. If they had been advised as to the necessity for clear offers in writing with terms set out from the bank, their case is that they would have taken that advice, they would have waited for the bank offer and if and when it had not been suitable for them they would not have exchanged... and their case is also that er once things had gone... er very badly wrong and they wanted to get out of the contract if they had been advised as to the way out... er then er... they would have been er of that, they would have served notice and they would have got out of the contract. Their case is that they were effectively forced to er complete unwillingly without the or the finance to make a go of the business and they suffered the losses which are claimed... er set out in heading form initially on page sixty two of the pleadings bundle... in further and better particulars.... and your Lordship'll see that erm figures are there set out which represent the losses incurred during the trading during that year from er November to December nineteen eighty five nineteen eighty six. The loss on the sale of the business... er various selling purchased expenses, loss of the profit, potential profit on their home,, the cost of borrowing er loss of earnings of the plaintiffs, loss on surrender of insurance policies er and er... then some unspecified sums relating to pension and credit worthiness and ill health and loss of business My Lord those er headings are taken from and dealt with in er, much more detail in the report prepared by the expert's accountant Mr for the er... plaintiffs which is of course in the erm bundle C... the third bundle.... Sorry, bundle three, part A. My Lord er again on page eighty one of the pleadings bundle... the er... plaintiff set out erm in their answer to request number nine on page eighty one... what they say er about what happened to their business. On page eighty one, as at the twenty fifth of September nineteen eighty five the plaintiffs did not have any confirmed offer of finance, thus they were unable to achieve completion unless the bank offered the finance in accordance with the telephone conversation of the twenty fourth. The plaintiffs were ultimately only able to complete on the basis of the terms subsequently offered by the bank which were financially disadva disadvantageous and effectively deprived the business of any chance of surviving because of the lack of operating capital and er many of the losses which are set out on page sixty two... erm... are based on that... intention and are dealt with er in full [Hidden:] This is what sort of business... a w wine bar did you tell me? [speaker001:] Sorry my Lord. [Hidden:] What sort of business was it? [speaker001:] It was a wine bar and restaurant. [Hidden:] And restaurant. [speaker001:] Yes.... My Lord er more detail about the nature of the losses which were incurred appear on erm... page sixty seven of the further and better particulars.... Sixty seven of the pleadings bundle which are the further and better particulars this year... and you can see that er looking back to page sixty six, what the plaintiffs have been asked to state was to give particulars of the change in financial position which had been outlined to Mr on the telephone and er your Lordship will see first of all that in answer eighty little A, there is a reference to er a letter of the twenty seventh of February nineteen ninety two which was a letter from the plaintiff's solicitors to the defendant's solicitors which, this is been incorporating in the front or ought to be in the bible, erm I don't think it has been but there are copies if I can hand your Lordship it was missed out in error I am sorry.... My Lord will see that there are details given erm as to the er financial... requirements of the plaintiff. So what is said is this. Our client's initial requirements were for a loan of eighty six thousand pounds being sixty thousand pounds for the business and a further twenty six thousand pounds on house mortgage to cover any monies the bank had required our client to provide overdraught facilities were also required. The bank provided finance for our client to exchange contracts, this the deposit, and then subsequently the attempt to obtain full security over their proposed lendings by including security over a property at Frinton on Sea which had been left in part only to our client upon his father's death. Our client had it in telephone conversation with the bank on ninth of September only proceeded with the proposed purchase on the express understanding that Frinton property was not to be included particularly as his father's companion a Mrs eighty years of age, was residing in the property and owned a half share of it. Furthermore our client had given Mrs through solicitors an undertaking at the time of the transfer of his late fathers half share interest to himself, that he would not use the property for purposes of charges being placed upon it. The bank were aware of this. In order to comply with the directions being given by Mr to our client to rearrange his finances, your client's letter in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead in which to put your finances in order. Our client met his bankers on twenty second of October and was only able to obtain funding as follows. The bank would give him facilities to purchase the business to the extent of seventy five thousand pounds if he agreed to sell his property at and from the proceeds of sale to repay the bridging facility in its entirety and they would provide a sixteen thousand pounds business loan and overdraught facilities to be reduced by five thousand pounds within a few days and if the six thousand pounds rent deposit was not required then the business loan would be reduced to ten thousand pounds. The bank finally agreed to loan sixteen thousand pounds for the business plus overdraught facilities and a further nine thousand pounds secured on our client's home repayable over five years, any further mortgage over a future was to be arranged elsewhere... and my Lord er will hear that in fact the, having the sale of their home having been completed on the fifth of December the plaintiffs were then homeless for some three months living with their daughter until such times as they were able to arrange a mortgage on their present property with the Halifax. and er move into that new home.... And er the er... those figures are really set out again er repeated in the further and better particulars which appear on page sixty seven and page sixty eight. They're really setting out in in great detail what is contained in that letter.... [clears throat] [cough] My Lord the er... defendants deny erm that er if there was any breach of contract or negligent on their part as that caused the losses which are claimed and also er do not admit any of the losses or damage er I consider the damage which was claimed by the plaintiffs. My Lord erm there are er in my submission er a likely there were to be five key issues for determination in a court of this trial. That the first issue erm were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to, as is admitted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made in a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made into a be put to be theirs.... provided from the bank.... Er, the second issue is did the plaintiff, Mr ask Peter to get him out of the contract... between exchange and completion... er that is clearly in dispute but if he did then the further issue is this, were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to advise the plaintiffs at a stage as to the effects of national condition of sale twenty two two and a way out of the contract which was open to him.... Er, four er if the plaintiffs had been so advised, would they have taken... er that way out... thereby the contract... and fifthly, if the defendants er were in breach of contract and your Lordship decides all those questions in the plaintiff's favour then er what is the basis on which they are to be awarded damages. My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that you must er appertain now the actual situation of these plaintiffs and compare it with the situation that would have prevailed if the breaching of contract alleged, had not occurred. Now the case. [Hidden:] The damages I suppose might be different, depending which... er... what kind of breach you succeed on. [speaker001:] Yes I think that may be right my Lord, indeed er if we succeed on the way out, get get out of the contract point then of course the plaintiff's case is that they would have taken that advice and would not have entered into the contract a and therefore on that basis they are entitled to be compensated on the basis that all the losses they unnecessarily incurred by having, being forced to complete, should be recoverable, subject to er litigation of loss and. But that's the basis on which they erm... content er... it is also their case that. [Hidden:] Well, what would that damage be... in er? [speaker001:] Well my Lord in my submission it is all those items which are claimed, the trading losses of having to run the business erm... operating at a loss for that trading year er the loss on resale. The loss of profit because they had been compelled to sell their home in order to complete on the purchase and the cost of borrowing and er the ancillary matters that are set out in the claim and dealt with by the accountant. It is the plaintiff's case that all those losses were losses they would not have incurred erm had there been no breach of contract. Because had there been no breach, the contract would never have been entered into in the first place... and the er plaintiffs will rely upon that erm recent court appeal decision between and er against where the court of appeal indicated that if you are dealing with a case where the plaintiff was saying had there been no breach of contract, this is a transaction we would never have entered in to then the plaintiffs are entitled to recover compensation on that basis. Erm, on the basis that they should be put back into the position that they would have been had there been no breach. Now erm I understand that, talking to my learned friend Mr this morning, that erm he will be contending for a different approach as to the basis of compensation. Namely, he will be inviting your Lordship to er look at whether or not the business... the plaintiff's would have failed in any event... er because it is the defendants case relying er extensively upon the opinion of their expert Mr... er that even if the plaintiffs had had the finances which were originally anticipated and had completed the deal in accordance with that, the probabilities are that this business would have failed in any event and that they would have incurred the losses they did... er so I anticipate there is going to be a dispute between us as to the basis in which your Lordship is to determine compensation in this case. Er, my Lord I have to say that as far as the expert evidence from the accountant is concerned it is only Mr who has er offered an opinion, expressed an opinion... upon that issue. The plaintiff's accountant Mr confines himself to quantifying the heads of loss and doesn't speak with reference to the er allegations that are made in any way.... It is erm... alleged, it is to be alleged as I understand it by the er defendant... relying on Mr opinion that the business would have failed in any event... er because of the plaintiff's general lack of experience in this trade and... what is described as a lack of financial expertise or caution er to which the availability of extra money as envisaged in the original proposal, would have made absolutely no difference.... Er, my Lord er I... my observations on that issue at this point be... that erm... it seems to be the defence case that for the purposes of er the defendants avoiding a duty to advise the plaintiffs as to the need for clear financial offers their terms from the bank, Mr was an experienced man of business and er had considerable financial acumen for the purposes of considering er whether under the banks original proposal for finance he would have been successful, they would be trading as a financial disaster.... Er my Lord er... the second observation I make about erm Mr opinion... erm and the facts upon which it is based is that... his opinion is hotly disputed er, not least because of what it would be submitted is the highly speculative nature of this enterprise... er, when you are being asked to consider with the benefit of hindsight, whether or not a business entered into some eighty years ago, was likely to have failed and er it is also an exercise which in my submission is entirely irrelevant if your Lordship would find the basis of compensation which I contend for is the one because the logic of not having to become involved in any investigation of whether or not this business would probably have been unsuccessful in any event.... erm... My Lord there is one other matter erm, which we invite your Lordship to deal with now erm, a at this point before the case proceeds further and that is this. My Lord there was an... an order on the summons for directions erm in August of nineteen ninety erm, provided for experts report to be disclosed with expert evidence to be limited witnesses or each party. My Lord in addition to erm the evidence from an expert accountant dealing with er... the plaintiff had obtained expert opinion... erm on the extent of the duty owed by the defendant in this sort of situation. It is an expert er report prepared by a partner of the solicitors firms... who has since qualifying been dealing primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing. Erm, my Lord the defendant's solicitors were told in correspondence that we would be calling a conveyancing expert. This report was disclosed in accordance with the direction of the trial on the twenty sixth of September of this year... er the defendant had not obtained er a report themselves. Erm, that report is not in the bundle of documents before your lordship at present because we were notified... er er as as the sixteenth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is [Hidden:] What is a conveyancing expert? [speaker001:] My Lord the er [Hidden:] Solicitor who conducts conveyancing. [speaker001:] My Lord the... the report deals with the extent of the duties which are by solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing, er the duties that is practice and is adopted by a majority of solicitors in this field, which relates to the extent of the duty to to financial security and to advise as to er... the availability if asked, of the way out of the contract and the meaning of and interpretation of the national agreement of sale. Now my Lord... the report er in my submission goes to the issues which are at the heart of this. The rule i in my submission is that... expert evidence is admissible er where there are matters at issue before the court which require expertise for the analysis and these criteria to be satisfied in my submission are that first of all the evidence must be relevant, and secondly the witness must be competent to give it. [Hidden:] Ar are you saying that the defendant was, or ought to have been a conveyancing expert himself?... Mr [speaker001:] My Lord Mr was a conveyancing, the defendants firm are a a firm... which specialise in commercial conveyancing matters and Mr was an experienced solicitor within that field and therefore the report addresses the duties to be owed by somebody working in that field and advising clients as to what the extent of the duty is. Er, and my Lord er... in my submission there is er no good reason why your Lordship should not receive that in evidence. The reports from solicitors dealing with... with matters of what are professional standards and duties in this particular field are er regularly accepted in evidence in these courts in order to determine those matters. My Lord we are not dealing here er with erm... general principals. For example where it is alleged that a solicitor. [Hidden:] Are you seeking to... introduce er... some... solicitors practice rules of some kind? [speaker001:] Well, there's nothing, as I understand it there is nothing in the Law Society guidelines but there are certainly references in the professional conduct guidelines which Mr has referred to in the course of this report er which referred to the extent of solicitors in the situation. And that's all part of the... the evidence, the expert evidence that he will give. [Hidden:] And this, are the prof professional conduct guidelines... in dispute... as they apply here? [speaker001:] Well my Lord, all we know is that erm when the report was served on the defendant it then came through court they were going to have to call Mr and then last week it was suggested er that er... not only did they not agree but that they were going to try to prevent it being admitted in evidence. I know no further... erm than that. Er, but it may your Lordship if you hear what my learned friend's objections are to er the report going in. [Hidden:] Yes. [speaker001:] My Lord er the basis of this objection is that this evidence is not admissible under a sign of authority... and erm... I wonder if I could start er my submission on this by referring to er on evidence.... In er chapter enth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat uni witnesses are admissible what if or experience. The principles as civil proceedings and the topic is now run by it goes on and that mainly deals with criminal material and then one can pick it up at paragraph thirty two er seventeen... when er... the authors addressed themselves to to civil proceedings... er and that er following passage deals with effects of the civil evidence act... and the relevant procedures... and then moving on my Lord to er... to in fact, thirty two thirty nine on page eighty hundred and twenty nine... the expert has furnished the judge or jury with the necessary scientific criteria for testing the accuracy of her conclusion so that to enable the judge or jury to perform their own independent judgement by the application of these criteria to the facts proved in evidence. That er goes on in relation to er criminal matters again... and er... er paragraph three hundred and thi, thirty three forty one... er it picks up the subject of expert testament, namely er science, art, trade, technical terms, handwriting, foreign law... er the ensuing pages in fact deal with that... and then at paragraph thirty two fifty one... er in the er section of subjects which experts may not testify on.... The first is... what we that passage, the questions of destruction whether of domestic, domestic or. He should instruct particular terms of the. The instructions that is the general rule. For example when foreign documents relating to professional conduct the opinions of experts not sealable on disputes of policy in professional to etiquette to elucidate the rules of a particular profession, English law, morals and probability of human nature and all our opinions of law is that which English law though they may prove the proper costs of particular legal proceedings, neither expert or ordinary witnesses may give their opinions upon matters of legal or moral obligations or general human nature or the manner in which other persons would probably act in the interests and my Lord this director points at the policy it is in fact the authority admits which is Mr Justice then was.... This is a report at nineteen thirty nine... the chancery reports... one chancery at page three hundred and eighty four. This was a solicitors... pick it up and my Lord so you can, you can see what the dispute was. Lot nineteen sixty one, an option to purchase your honour for three hundred and eighty five which at that time was at a rate of nine hundred pounds a year and they went to this friend of the firm of solicitors and there of the document which doubly signed and was dated March twenty four nineteen sixty one but my consideration one pounds penny by thereby granted to for the purchasing of. The option is expressed and remained effective for ten years. for one pound and unfortunately as he the option of the contract... and on a number of occasions question whether he should exercise the option. On seventeenth of August nineteen sixty seven object of defeating the option and having discovered through the result of his solicitors that the option had not been registered, sold and been paid the farm... five hundred pounds and after the sale by registering the option under the land chartered act and on the sixth of October nineteen sixty seventeen could have exercised the option and neither or his wife complied with the notice and on March twenty eighth nineteen sixty eight wife died and on the twenty seventh of January nineteen seventy commenced proceedings against his father against his mother's executors the declaration of the option was. On the eighth of February of nineteen seventy two died and on the eleventh of May seventy three died and the plaintiff's continued the action but the action failed so he was awarded damages from the sale of his estate and on the twenty first of July nineteen seventy two commenced an action against solicitors for negligence or breach of professional duty in detecting to register the option necessity of so doing. limitation point er it was held at one of general or continuing duty obtain an independent firm of solicitors to the option on every occasion on which they were consulted as to a possible exercise on such occasions whether in fact be issued it goes on. was imposed on the defendant client existed between the defendants were therefore liable to be taught. The defendant contract for their negligence is omitting to register this option before the and just before that submission I wish to make. Lord may I pick it up page four hundred and two... erm... at lesson B... er there's a plea of breach of duty, this new plea does however raise the issue not of the original, not apparent on the original fee then what is the scope of the solicitor's duty that part of a particular aspect of a problem. Is he entitled to confine himself to the particular matters for which he is retained to advise or was he to consider all the circumstances affecting the underlying data including hypothetical circumstances or risks which attention directed from one and not specifically sought. as I've heard the evidence of a number of practising solicitors and Mr committed himself. Mr no doubt of what is said to be the divine preference for called three. I must say that I doubt the value as it seems to me become accustomed in cases of this type. It is then the legal duty in any situation must I think the questions for the court, clearly there's not practice so accepted standards of conduct as laid down by the professional institute. Evidence of that had thought to be at. But evidence really amounts to no more than expression of the opinion by a particular practitioner of what he thinks that he would have done if he had been paid hypothetically without the benefit of hindsight the position of the defendant, with a little while the evidence of the witness is due, what in the matter of law the solicitor's duty was in the particular circumstances of the case, I should have thought, being a solicitor the very question which the functions, to decide. the authority if I may refer you to it is the recent report of the British er Columbia Supreme Court erm courtesy of professional negligence... er in the updating section it's a a. [Hidden:] Just, just one moment.... Yes. [speaker001:] My Lord British Columbia Supreme Court erm... and er photocopied. Erm, my Lord I don't think it's necessary to go through the rather complicated headland potentially gives you though I can see it from the er. [Hidden:] What the erm... give me the reference again. [speaker001:] My Lord yes, nineteen ninety two, forty six B C L R... open bracket two little d closed brackets, one six four.... Er my Lord it's rather a complicated of transaction and... the the essential heading this case was that he failed to advise in relation to title... er the person who goes from with respect to a land transaction he's entitled to expect that the lawyer investigates the state of entitlement to arrange the matter and to explain to the trial exactly what that is, what it is that is portrayed by the state of the title. The defendants were negligent in breach of duty of not carrying out of that part of that duty. And my Lord a short... part I wish to refer you to and that is on page a hundred and seventy nine... which is er the section when the judge was dealing with... er the law of duty... and the judge Mr Justice said during the trial I express some concern to what evidence has been called it is not necessary to refer to lawyers professional liability by. The issue is whether or not the defendant's lawyer should have told his client about the state of the title and the risks arising therefrom and I didn't have any difficulty in coming to the conclusion on that matter without the aid of expert evidence and erm... the judge then goes on to deal with the authorities. My Lord er, the final part of... er my submission on [Hidden:] Well that doesn't take us very much further does it That particular case... I don't know who this judge is... judge... what court is this in? [speaker001:] British Columbia Supreme Court my Lord. It is approved er... approval by er the editors of which is the... the technical or professional negligence. [Hidden:] Yes. [speaker001:] My Lord there is a final part of our submission on on this is because I don't know whether your Lordship has a copy of the... report... this is the report of the fact that... My Lord erm... what I wish to refer you to if I may, is erm that paragraph three one of the report which is erm... that solicitors and er he instructed himself er from the law society who told him that the law society in paragraph three page five, don't issue any specific directional guidance duty of care in relation to the plaintiffs transaction, the Law Society view obligation to be have to be considered on the basis of and he then goes on from there to... to depart from that approach to... speculate as to what his approach would be... erm But he goes on, he goes on and the body of his evidence my Lord is... to speculate as to what he would have done and what Mr should have done in the circumstances of this er case and reference is made to the professional conduct guide in paragraph three two.... guide... but what we do dispute is the relevance... that erm this solicitor is seeking to give.... So what we say on on the basis of... Mr Justice er victory... Nat West and Midland bank and the er authority in er that this evidence is not in this report, doesn't assist you and what is relevant is [Hidden:] What, what evidence? The evidence of what's in the guide to professional conduct. [speaker001:] We would not object to the guide my Lord but what we would object to... don't object to the guide my Lord but what we do object to is... is what this er solicitor would have done in relation to it...

[speaker001:] So what we do is... is what this... er solicitor would have done in relation to it. [Drake:] Yes. [speaker001:] And it it really is covered by the passages in erm... erm, just, I just reiterate that that that expressly referring your Lordship to it, professional duty except in so far as it may be necessary to elucidate the rules... that that was at page eight hundred and forty one at the bottom... and it goes over the page to eight four two... and then proceeds to general proposition to those two experts ordinary witness may not... may not give their opinions towards matters legal or moral obligation. My Lord to say that that evidence will not assist you and shouldn't be received. [Drake:] . [Cox:] My Lord if I could question it. It is not, er this evidence does not go to a matter of law er er and the duty but it matter of practice and my Lord what this case is dealing with is about what if, what is or should be the practice of a solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing as to the advice that is given to clients... and er my Lord the er... commercial conveyancing is obviously a matter which particularly concerns. [Drake:] Can I, can I take it this way. Analysing your... opening to me... you were saying that there's expert evidence... that... solicitors instructed in the purchase of a property must... ask about financial arrangements and advise about them.... Secondly it is the solicitors... must advise about clause twenty two... and thirdly... well that's about it really, isn't it. [Cox:] Well my Lord and yet [Drake:] Because the other's factual. [Cox:] Yes but my Lord d dealing also with the suggestion by the defendants that it would have been improper to advise him to serve completion notice when he wasn't in a position to complete and the solicitor deals with the the expert deals also with that position as to what is the practice of a solicitor in that situation if there's a potential er problem for that particular solicitor to what the advice should be as to how the client should deal with the that. [Drake:] Well that depends on the... terminology of the... of the rule doesn't it. Does that require expert advice? [Cox:] Well I think that the way the case is put is that. [Drake:] Let's just have a look at them have you got the general conditions here? [Cox:] Yes there is, there is a bundle... er a and what it deals with is the availability to a purchaser of the service of the special notice to complete er if the vendors are not completing and then if don't comply with it within a certain time limit, the contract is rescinded. Now of course that, it is the defendant's case I anticipate, erm... is er, although there's nothing specific in the rule about it, is said to be er only a possibility for a plaintiff if the plaintiff when they sell, he or she served the notice to complete is in a position to be able to complete himself... and here. [Drake:] Well he's got to be in a position to complete by the time the notice runs out. [Cox:] Well... I I think its, the way that the plaintiff puts the case on that point my Lord is that even if the defendant Mr took the view er that it would not have been proper for such a notice to be served, in view of what the plaintiff was saying to him about his wish to get out of the contract, the fact that it was available to him should have been brought to his attention and then as Mr was saying that I... sorry I don't feel I can do this on your behalf because it's not proper in the circumstances or whatever... erm, should then have gone on to advise the plaintiff either to do it himself or to go and seek independent advice.... But should, to say nothing at all, the matter not being drawn to the attention at all was, was not right. So the those are the issues, the factual issues of the matters at issue. But my Lord what... erm I [Drake:] Er, a notice to complete is a, is a notice to complete and not a notice to withdraw. [Cox:] Certainly, certainly I I accept that. But I I don't erm from the nature of Mr Justice in the Midland Bank that there's a a... well known but w what I say... is that in this case er what your Lordship will be dealing with are essentially what are matters of practice for conveyancing solicitors when faced particularly with clients er making financial arrangements to enter into this and the duties of in that particular situation. [Drake:] Does it really help to call them, label them that of practice er... Mrs because... the end of the day they're not matters of practice, they're matters of law. Either they're under duty... or they're not. [Cox:] Well if that were so my Lord then there would never be any any solicitor's negligence claims, in which any expert was ever called to give evidence... because it's always going to be eventually a matter of law as to what the defendant's duty is but what the er... what the plaintiff had not said at any stage is that a matter of law is ever going to be admissible and in fact the is Justice our in the course of er er a case in which he, despite expressing reservations about the admissibility of the evidence, plainly admitted it because he was within the course of his judgement.... Er, he may be concerned but my Lord erm, there has been reference to the er the professional negligence and and my Lord there is a bit I have in court, I'm afraid the second edition because the third edition which is the latest, was not available to me this morning, but there's a paragraph in it and I want to refer your Lordship to it, I wonder if I might read it and er hand it up to your Lordship. What I'm just checking to see is erm,... it appears in, does your Lordship have the? [Drake:] Is this actually a book that er... is going to be of any assistance to me? I think [Cox:] Well my Lord it might [Drake:] those authors are still alive aren't they... hopefully. [Cox:] My Lord in my submission it will be yes, because of there's some er reference. [Drake:] Well why don't you just adopt their verbiage as part of er... won't have to pay any copyright fees for doing that. [Cox:] Can I just ask you to look at page three hundred and forty of and. [Drake:] Yes... have you got it?... I don't think we've got it. [Cox:] Er I thought your Lordship had it, I'm sorry... I thought I'd your Lordship. [Drake:] No I haven't got it. [Cox:] Oh I'm sorry... my Lord perhaps I could read the passage out and then er I can hand it up to your Lordship but it... after setting out the dictor from Mr Justice in the Midland Bank. Erm the editors say that, and I rely upon this because it's important in my submission, that it is submitted that a wider view might be taken as the function of a solicitor as expert witnesses. While of course the extent of the solicitor's duty is ultimately a question for the court, surely this is a mixed question of fact and law. Even if there is no directly relevant practice of the profession, the evidence of other practitioners as to what they do in similar cases and why, is likely to be of benefit to the court. A knowledge of the working of a solicitor's office, particularly er o of those departments handling non-contentious business, cannot be automatically imputed to the judge or to council... and he may as well make it is not uncommon for an expert witness to give evidence of what he would have done in a particular situation after consideration and er I resign on that because in my submission er the issues in this case are clearly issues of mixed fact and law and my Lord it is seen from the report handed up that there is particularly in relation to the erm financial aspect of the case, reference to a provision within a... professional conduct of solicitors guide as to what the nature of the er duties of the solicitor in the situation is. Er and I rely [Drake:] Well, that's that's not in dispute you can, you can put in that er... that guide. [Cox:] Yes. [Drake:] Although in fact you haven't pleaded it... er. [Cox:] No my Lord it's not pleaded certainly, but it, but it's part of the expert report. [Drake:] It should be, it should be if it's part of the basis upon which you are making an allegation that a duty arises. [Cox:] Well my Lord I don't know [Drake:] You are saying that [Cox:] whether it could properly be said that it's a duty because it's not, it's a guide, er the question arises as to whether it's a duty but of course it's here, it's always been in the expert's report incorporated in it the reference to it... erm... but er... Lord in my submission... er it is undoubtedly correct that your Lordship would be greatly helped by hearing evidence from a solicitor engaged regularly, frequently, in commercial conveyancing work as to what the extent of the practice, the accepted practice and the professional... standards operated by solicitors in this field and [Drake:] see what his qualifications are shall we? He's an expert and to to tell us what the practice is. [Cox:] Yes my Lord er... you can see that er on page one... in paragraph one two, he is a partner in a firm of he qualified as a solicitor in nineteen seventy three and became a partner in nineteen seventy six and since qualifying, so that er some twenty five years ago, he has dealt primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing... and his contained in paragraph one and three... er he's been asked to advise on the extent of the duty of professional care and skill in relation to Mr financing the transaction... and the extent to which they were under an obligation to advise Mr of any opportunity to rescind. [Drake:] Well that doesn't show any er expertise in what goes on in a solicitor's office... at all. [Cox:] Well my Lord. [Drake:] We may know what practices and particularly his own... what what he can he tell me about what er... the practice of solicitors up and down the country? [Cox:] Well, he's b the second part, he's basing his opinion on clearly what the plaintiff's case is about what he was, what he was telling Mr to do. I accept that erm and of course he's dealing with it, approaching it from the basis that that factual issue is one she's resolved in favour of the plaintiff... erm it may be that there's very little issue between us, it may be... that the defendant would concede... if your Lordship were to find... that er the plaintiff had been asking Mr on several occasions to get him out of the contract, it may be conceded, I know not. The that condition should or would have been drawn to his attention, that is the major factor in this dispute which goes. But the expert is dealing also with the financial aspect of the claim.. [Drake:] But er... isn't the situation here that er vi advisor to very eminent solicitors and so are... the defendants in this case [Cox:] Yes... indeed. [Drake:] W w what w what am I to infer from this expert reports? That they are solicitors who would have handled the situation differently from er the defendants. [Cox:] Well my Lord the issue is that the defendants deny they were under any duty to offer any advice about financial. [Drake:] Yes... but I can't receive expert evidence on that because that's the very thing I have to decide isn't it? [Cox:] My Lord it will be helped in that situation in my submission by evidence from... which is dealing with what is the accepted and standard practice in that solicitors in handling these forms of transactions... and what advice is given my Lord undoubtedly that must be of benefit to the courts.... I know not, it may be that Mr is saying this is something that that never it's never... I've never understood it to be er part of my practice or part of any solicitors practice to offer such a and if we have a solicitor er who has constantly practised in his skills for a very lengthy period of time, that is saying oh yes it is because this, as far as I'm concerned, standard advice which solicitors should give to clients transactions. Your Lordship must be helped in that considerably, by that evidence. To resolve that conflict between them.... I can't fault a solicitor er to say that that there's no practice unless I call an expert to give that opinion. Mr who's the defendant of course,. [Drake:] You haven't pleaded any practice... Mrs, you haven't pleaded any practice. [Cox:] Well, my Lord the case is about the practice of solicitors and I've pleaded upon the practice, that's part of the statement. [Drake:] It's not about the practice of solicitors, it's pleaded that there's breach of contract. [Cox:] My Lord it's pleaded that there's common practice in the statement of claim. [Drake:] Well you haven't pleaded a term of the contract that there's a practice... to which all solicitors are subject that they have got to do this that and the other. [Cox:] My Lord with the greatest respect that that clears my submission from the pleadings, er in the statement of claim.... In paragraph four... specifically paragraph four page seven. That... the negligence or rather the breach of the implied term, was failing to ensure as is the common practice amongst solicitors that the proposed source of finance had in fact agreed both finance for the transaction and the term thereon. That is clearly pleaded my Lord now unless I can call Mr to say... er yes it is... er I cannot deal with. [Drake:] Does common practice means... does common practices means it's a practice which is common or [Cox:] Well, yes. [Drake:] Not common to all of them but [Cox:] Yes [Drake:] common amongst them. [Cox:] Yes... the that is the a practice. Now I... unless I can call Mr to give evidence that it is, I cannot deal with Mr er contention which may be, anticipated in the witness box,. Because er unless I can call... er a conveyancing solicitor to say yes it is common practice... er the plaintiff is proceeding very much at a disadvantage.... I I it's clearly the defendants case that it's not malpractice and as Mr is undoubtedly going to say. [Drake:] There's plenty there's plenty of legal authority of course on this very question isn't there? [Cox:] Well my Lord no there isn't, that that is in my submission, there isn't. [Drake:] Oh isn't there [Cox:] In my submission there isn't. [Drake:] Well you surprise me. I seem to remember several cases in which the court considered to what extent the solicitor involves himself... in the financial arrangements for a conveyancing transaction. [Cox:] Well... my Lord not er so far as I'm aware. We are dealing specifically with a lack of information for commercial conveyancing... and the extent that the conveyancing solicitor duties in that situation. That is the, that is the key to it in my submission. Because that is what is at issue between the parties. The er... the defence case is that er... there was no duty a and in my submission it must be of assistance to your Lordship to determine that issue... to hear evidence from both sides upon whether there is such a practice and if there is what the extent of it is.... A a and that is my submission, it is not a matter of law but a matter of... fact a and practice. [Drake:] Thank you Mrs. At this stage I take the view it is very unlikely that there's anything in this expert evidence that will be of the slightest assistance to me and I'm not going rule it out. Question of omitting it doesn't arise unless until... we get to that part of the... plaintiff's case... and erm I shall hear the evidence of the plaintiff and the other witnesses first... and the advocation can be renewed in due ti in due course... at the proper time. I'm not encouraging it because as I say... I really, present time I can't see that it's going to be of any assistance to me to have... the opinion of... solicitors from er from any part really, from the defendant or or someone else. On these matters. [Cox:] My Lord er... those er in essentially are the matters to which erm I wanted to draw your Lordship's attention in. Er, my Lord may I say that er in relation to the witness statement... erm, clearly the credibility of this, the plaintiff Mr is going to be substantially in issue er and therefore er I propose er not to simply to tell him... er and say erm in your witness statement your evidence erm but clearly to take him to those areas which are in dispute and to ask him to deal fully with them in I appreciate it's going to erm... take some time to do that but it is important in my submission that your Lordship has the ability to er assess... the plaintiffs. [Drake:] Yes. [Cox:] Erm... and my Lord I hope that [Drake:] Do you in fact wish me to read the evidence in this case?... you have decided that have you? [Cox:] Well my Lord as I said as I said at the beginning I think the both Mr and myself considered that it might... er assist your Lordship considerably if you have some time now to read... er the witness statements and the... reports from the expert... which are in bundle three and indeed erm. [Drake:] The experts... er they deal with the the damages [Cox:] Yes [Drake:] don't they? [Cox:] Yes and I I I think y my Lord the plaintiffs will be cross examined quite considerably on the damages claimed and I think it might help your Lordship to see... erm the way. [Drake:] The case in which the the evidence on damages is going to... possibly erm enable me to form a better view of the credibility of the witnesses. [Cox:] Well my Lord I think [Drake:] Or or why or do we need to try this, go into this business of a fairly complicated damages assessment as part of the liability claim. [Cox:] Sorry my Lord.... Well... my Lord I must say it had occurred to me erm that... certainly on the basis on which I'm contending for damages to be assessed with the plaintiffs... and it is completely irrelevant, er er many of the matters to which the defendant's expert goes to as to the damages and the extent to which they were caused by the negligence of the defendant, the breach of duty.... Erm, but my Lord er I think the difficulty is that as far as my learned friend is concerned er he takes the view and it's probably better for him to develop this your Lordship, that the matters cannot properly be separated and he wishes your Lordship to deal with them in total so that er the whole picture can be seen at liability stage. [Drake:] Yes. [Cox:] To enable him to cross examine the plaintiffs as er he sees appropriate. [Drake:] Yes alright. [Cox:] Er my Lord it's been. [Drake:] I'm I'm a bit reluctant to embark on a, on reading reports of this nature... which are liable to mean very little to me till I devote, until I've obtained the view from the [Cox:] Yes. [Drake:] from the... general history of what the case is about. [Cox:] Yes... my Lord I I I'm not going to invite your Lordship t to take a great deal of time reading reports that state in detail erm but I think the witness statements and I think probably the documentation that might help your Lordship at this stage er to see something of the and to ensure that where evidence is given it can proceed fairly... fairly quickly. [Drake:] Mr is er... twenty five pages. Mr is er... eighty pages. [Cox:] My Lord I'm more than happy to for your Lordship not to... not look at the details of the accountant's evidence at this stage a and concentrate on the witness statements and the documentation which which deals with liability matters. [Drake:] So it's bundle. [Cox:] It's part A trial bundle [Drake:] Trial bundle [Cox:] Two... one of two of the pleadings. [Drake:] Part A one and two... [Cox:] And then er... part B... bundles one, two and three er... my Lord you want to look at the documentation which is dealing specifically with the purchase of the wine bar. It starts at page... one seven eight... pages one seven eight to forty effectively deal with the... the crucial aspects of. [Drake:] Er I'm sorry I hadn't quite understand, understood how you, trial bundle A one is the pleadings bundle. [Cox:] Yes my Lord the witness statements. [Drake:] Yes I... well I did have one of those. [Cox:] Yes. [Drake:] But I give it back to er... cos I have two pleadings bundles. [Cox:] Ah yes, one was paginate I think and one wasn't my Lord. [Drake:] And the pleadings bundle which I've got also seems to be... erm from your side but it's er seems to be the trial bundle that was lodged with the court rather than the one that you've a different order and different pagination. [Cox:] ... yes... does your Lordship have trial bundle two part A, the witness statements. [Drake:] Pardon. [Cox:] Does your Lordship have part A trial bundle two? [Drake:] Yes I do. [Cox:] Yes... the witness [Drake:] I have one and two now and I give this back to the associate, he can keep that... and you can keep this one. [Cox:] And er... my Lord [Drake:] You can have that one back. [Cox:] The... the documents that my learned friend and I think would be most useful to your Lordship to read at this stage would be pages one seven eight four two five. [Drake:] Where do I find those? [Cox:] My Lord trial bundle part B er and then... er bundles one and two. [Drake:] You're not asking me to read the part er... B... at all at this stage. [Cox:] my Lord. My learned friend and I thought that if your Lordship wanted to look at the documentation so that your Lordship is familiar with some of the documentation which is going to be referred to in the evidence, er simply to enable your Lordship to be... er a little more familiar with the nature of content of some of the documentation then the crucial documents are those of pages one seven eight to four two five, bundle B. [Drake:] What... oh D [Cox:] Bundle B. [Drake:] Yeah. [Cox:] Which is in part one and two, files one and two. [Drake:] Yeah. [Cox:] Er er that together with the witness statements my Lord I think. [Drake:] Well that is, that's getting on for two hundred and fifty pages of document. [Cox:] My Lord yes of course. But I think it's time, I think we both agree that the time er... well used because it's for the because your Lordship will have a better understanding of the evidence when the plaintiff and the defendant give it from the witness box. [Drake:] Yes well... it strikes me that this case involves some very narrow issues really... it's generated an awful lot of paper. [Cox:] It has my Lord. [Drake:] Well now how long is this going to take me? [Cox:] Well... erm... my Lord I don't know whether you'd like to take... certainly... the rest of the afternoon... and sit again tomorrow at ten thirty to get a clean start, having read all the documentation or whether you feel that you could read it before then. I think that there's a lot for your Lordship to read... but I think it might be beneficial in the long run, it was certainly, our experience has been that it certainly would take time... in the long run but to deal with it this way. [Drake:] Yes, well er what do you say Mr. [Bate:] Well my Lord as a time saver it would quite er how my er learned friend went through the documents,i it in the contents she would otherwise make and one suspects that it would take a great deal longer. [Cox:] My Lord it may help to say that if your Lordship does this reading my Lord, I don't... intend... to take your Lordship through the documents any more myself in opening, because I think once your Lordship has has seen the extent of it, I'm going to call... Mr to give evidence and go to through the documentation that way, once. Er, and I don't intend to take up any more of the court's time simply opening myself documentation and making points upon it. obviously preferable to get evidence given about the documentation which is why I advise, consider it necessary for your Lordship to familiarise yourself with it now. [Drake:] Well if I'm going to read this... er at all properly it's going to take me all afternoon isn't it?... That's that's what the parties want. [Cox:] My Lord I think it's right that that it's clear from the discussions I've had with Mr that the plaintiff is going to be in the witness box for some considerable time and I think if your Lordship's had an opportunity to read the witness statement, seen the areas of dispute, the nature of the the fact that arised and had a look at some of the documentation, it would be much er er a much speedier process than it would otherwise be. [Drake:] very well then I I'll adjourn into chambers and I don't require the attendance of the parties or council until tomorrow morning. [speaker001:] Members of the jury and you'll be pleased to hear that I'll be doing that quite quickly. Can I start however by telling you what this case is not about. It's not about police corruption. It's not about racism in the police force, it's not about dishonesty amongst police officers. It's not about violence or brutal police officers... and I say that because for the last few years there's been an awful lot of publicity... about the particularly in the Metropolitan area... and I ask you you will have read some terrible things about certain police officers. Put those out of your mind. Indeed yesterday you may well seen on on the news, heard on the radios, seen in the papers, forget such attacks. It's also not about macho, gun, gung ho policeman as has been suggested. What it is about, members of the jury, is a very professional police force doing the best they could in the circumstances.... And what do they try to do, they were trying, above all else, to protect you and I, the general public. And this is a police force, you will remember, Mr telling you... very remarkable characteristic. Never in it's entire history has it shot a gun in anger at a human being.... And what does that tell you, members of the jury, about this police force? What does it tell you about their professionalism?... Now in this case the police have the burning proof... we have to satisfy you of in particular three things. Firstly as you have probably already gathered, we have to satisfy you that there were reasonable grounds to believe that Lawrence was in the flat, the plaintiff's flat. Secondly we have to satisfy you that in order to that flat they used only reasonable and necessary force.... And thirdly we have to satisfy you that in the circumstances of the operation the police were justified in restraining Mr with handcuffs for the short period of time that he was restrained and in addition Mrs who you will remember was restrained... in her lounge, she was told she couldn't leave the lounge, again for a few minutes. And members of the jury we don't that we have to prove that to you.... And in a nut shell, it is our case, we say the police, what the police did was reasonable in the circumstances and indeed to go any further and say what they did was necessary in the circumstances. There was no realistic alternative. Of course in he many years later to debate whether other alternatives could have been adopted. What other courses of action could have been pursued. We say to you, taking all the facts into consideration the officers did in due course, there was no other. There may be few actual options that lawyers can ponder over. But there was no other realistic option.... And why do we say that? Why do we say there were reasonable grounds? Well members of the jury... it is because we've set the course that... acting upon in itself would not have been enough.... That's and he couldn't and then mount this sort of operation. Having seen just one or two pieces... of the jigsaw, but the police didn't act on one or two pieces... they put the rest of the jigsaw together and what did they have. Well they had the information that you will hear in due course, in just a few moments, from the caller. The person who phoned up appeared to be perfectly genuine. There was nothing about the man's voice, nothing about what he said that cast any doubt on his motives.... And he told them... that... was in the flat that you know about and that there was suspicion that other occupants of the flat were in danger. Now what do the police know at the time. When they heard that information they knew that Lawrence was indeed on the run from prison, that he'd escaped. They also knew that he was a violent man, a man prepared not only to handle shotguns, but to saw off the barrel and to shoot sawn off shotgun at human beings. They knew all that. But they knew a little bit more than to put the together. They also knew that Lawrence was a and knew and there's one final piece of information members of the jury, that which the police knew. The knew Mr himself was no angel. That he had the long record of offenses, mainly dishonesty and some for violence against the police.... And they put all those factors together and they weighed up the alternatives and you've heard some of them already. The, they weighed that up. The idea was of staking out the estate and counting on someone at the appropriate moment. They weighed up the prospect of knocking on the door... and members of the jury, you have to consider in due course whether they got that act right. And you will do so by listening to all the other officers who will give evidence in the case.... The this is what the police say. They had to risks didn't they. One risk was... that if they didn't act there was a gunman on the loose, desperate, he's after all escaped from prison, possibly in a confined space in a block of flats with a vantage point. That was one risk. They risk leaving him there and him going on to do damage to personal property. A very serious risk. On the other hand there was the risk which in fact... materialised which is that in mounting such an operation they would... frighten innocent members of the public... it was open to the jury, we don't swing from the fact that... Mrs and her children were clearly frightened, no doubt about that, it must have been a terrifying experience. But those are the two risks the police had to weigh up... and what they will tell you is that one risk, a gunman on the loose, is a potential to main and kill, one is far, far more serious than the risk of causing some temporary... fear and fright of little children.... And the that Mr and other officers never like to mount an armed operation, never. If they can avoid it, they never would. But it was the only option available to them.... And you'll hear two sorts of evidence in this case. You'll hear evidence from those officers that took the decision to get into the flat. That's the first and they'll be the ones that will be able to tell you why they've taken that decision and why we say it's a reasonable decision. Then you'll hear from the second of officers... namely the officers that went into the flat that were carrying the guns, carrying and who conducted the operation and from their evidence you'll be able to judge whether or not the force used was reasonable and was necessary.... Members of the jury whilst you're listening to these officers... ask yourself a number of questions as they're going along. Do they all look to you as professional... men and women?... Are they considered in their judgement? Are they temperate? Do they keep their cool? Are they? Firm, perhaps. Decisive, do they show any compassion? And weigh those matters up in your mind as you hear one evidence after the other. And ask yourself a question, are they really a sort of dirty Harry or sweeney sort of officers you would be lead to believe. in front of your mind because the picture's intended by the plaintiff's is that these are... reckless, violent, thuggish officers, stealing into a place with no regard for anyone else. We say nothing could be further from the truth and indeed to get any if you read just one newspaper this morning we will say from that which you will actually see in the witness box. Because after you listen to the evidence will be that these are professional officers doing a very difficult job and members of the public, members of the jury create very dated job... they have the one objective I've told you about... to protect members of the public from further harm from what they thought was an armed criminal on the run. Finally members of the jury by way of opening tonight, ask you to be warned about two things. Firstly... it is inevitable and natural and quite proper that you should have a sympathy, in particular for Mrs and her children and. None of us it is a matter of extreme regret that they were terrified in the way they claim they were, but that sympathy must not be allowed to cloud your judgement on the issue about whether the police were reasonable.... Secondly members of the jury, please don't do what the press are always doing which is act on the basis of hyper. If the police had a crystal ball... and a gypsy woman they could bring in and ask her to look and see what was in the flat, we wouldn't be here today would we? But they don't have a crystal ball, all they have is their judgement and they do what's best in the circumstances. The questions maybe that if... they did what was reasonable, did they carry it out in a reasonable way. Members of the jury that's all I wish to say to you... by way of opening the case. And I'll now call a number of the officers to explain their case of their own. Thank you.... My Lord call Elaine. Take the book in your hand and repeat after the. I swear by almighty God. [Elaine:] I swear by almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [Elaine:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [Elaine:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [Elaine:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [Elaine:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] Thank you. Miss could you just confirm your full name and your address? [Elaine:] Elaine, do I have to give my home address? [speaker001:] Give your work address. [Elaine:] Work address [speaker001:] And Miss it's an extremely big court with a very very high ceiling, it's very difficult for all us to be heard. Can you do your best to... direct your answers to the other end of the court. [Elaine:] Yes. [Drake:] I told the witnesses yesterday, you may sit down or stand just as you wish. [Elaine:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Miss what was your job in December of nineteen eighty eight? [Elaine:] I was... a civilian controller operator. [speaker001:] And where were you working at the time? [Elaine:] At. [speaker001:] And can you tell the jury, as briefly as possible, what that job entailed? [Elaine:] Basically it was receiving telephone calls from the public erm and using that information to put on a computer to send officers to incidents... various incidents. [Drake:] Erm I I missed at the beginning perhaps, that's your present job still is it? [Elaine:] No that's not my present job, I've changed jobs since then. [Drake:] What do you do now. [Elaine:] I'm a crime officer at. [speaker001:] Miss do you remember taking a telephone call from somebody about a Mr Lawrence. [Elaine:] Yes. [speaker001:] Can you remember roughly what time of day that was? [Elaine:] It was approximately... five fifteen, five twenty P M. [speaker001:] And was the caller male or female? [Elaine:] Male. [speaker001:] And from the caller's voice were you able to come to the view as to his age? [Elaine:] It was five years ago but... I believe his was... he sounded fairly young I'd say about in his twenties. [speaker001:] Did, did he have any... obvious accent? [Elaine:] Not that I can recall. [speaker001:] Miss what did the man tell you? [Elaine:] Erm, I can't remember the exact conversation but the basics of it were that we were looking for somebody called Lawrence... and he was at the present time at erm... and that he was in possession of a gun and that the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of those premises. [speaker001:] Miss did you ask the caller... for his name? [Elaine:] I did yes. [speaker001:] A and what did he... tell you? [Elaine:] He wouldn't give me his name because he was concerned that something would happen to him if he gave me his details. [speaker001:] Miss were you able to... come to any view as to whether the call was genuine, from what you heard? [Elaine:] As far as I was concerned the call did sound genuine... yes. [speaker001:] Er Miss what did you do next? [Elaine:] I reported it to my section inspector Mr. [speaker001:] So he. Miss or is it simply that er when the male rang up to say about Lawrence at has a gun and that he is the caller who is concerned for the safety of the occupiers. Did you say anything to the effect that... Lawrence was being harboured at the flat at or did he merely say he was concerned for the safety of the occupier? [Elaine:] From what I can recall he just said he was concerned for the safety of the occupiers. [speaker001:] my Lord does your Lordship have any questions? [Drake:] No thank you very much, Miss you are free to leave is you wish to [Elaine:] Thank you very much. [Drake:] Or stay and listen to the rest if you want. [speaker001:] My Lord next. Raise the book in your right hand. I swear by Almighty God. [Clive:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [Clive:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [Clive:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [Clive:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [Clive:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] Inspector can you give the court your name and address? [Clive:] I'm Inspector Clive Richard... of... I'm currently on the road traffic division in Bedfordshire. At the time of this incident... I was patrol inspector at. [speaker001:] Again Inspector, just to help the jury and myself indeed, what does being a control inspector mean? [Clive:] I was in charge of a shift of, at that time, approximately twenty constables er four or five sergeants who do normal patrol work in uniform at. [speaker001:] Were you involved inspector, in the events leading up to the search of? [Clive:] Only in that I received the message from Mrs... of a telephone call. [speaker001:] Perhaps it's quicker if I ask you, you just heard about it. [Clive:] Yes. [speaker001:] Can you confirm that... what she told you? [Clive:] The information Mrs gave to me was as she stated that erm an anonymous phone call had been made to the police station, which she had received.... [clears throat] The information was that there was a Lawrence at that address in Luton, that he had a hand gun and that they were, the caller was concerned for the safety of the occupants of that flat. [Drake:] I you may memory, you added he had a hand gun... that's what she told you? [Clive:] Yes, that's. [Drake:] She told us just now merely that he said he had a gun... but you you remember that it is a hand gun. [Clive:] Hand gun yes sir. [Drake:] Yes. [speaker001:] Inspector did you at the time, know of Lawrence? [Clive:] Only by reputation. I was aware that he... was an escaped prisoner.... I didn't know him personally and I I wouldn't recognise him. [speaker001:] And on... receiving that information, Inspector what did you do? [Clive:] My task was to assess the validity of the information... taken over the phone... and the only way I could do that... was to contact someone who knew the Lawrence situation.... I telephoned the C I D department at in an effort to trace the officer... who was dealing with that case. [speaker001:] Did you trace that officer? [Clive:] I didn't sir... no erm, Detective Sergeant was the officer dealing with this erm Lawrence. He was not available. [speaker001:] Did you speak to anyone else about the situation? [Clive:] On telephoning... the criminal investigation department at I spoke to Sergeant... it was he that in fact suggest I called erm Sergeant.... Then in the long run I did in fact to Superintendent about the information we had gleaned from this telephone call. [speaker001:] Now about what time did you speak to Superintendent? [Clive:] I don't remember exactly Sir, but certainly... between the call at five twenty P M and... what, say by six o'clock that evening. [speaker001:] By the time you spoke to Superintendent had you... learned anything about the address that had been given to you? [Clive:] It was ascertained that that address erm, was occupied by the family... again I don't know the. [speaker001:] Did you know anything about... Mr at that time? [Clive:] I didn't sir, no. [speaker001:] What information were you able... to pass on to Superintendent? [Clive:] When I found out the identity of the person owning or occupying the flat at... I made enquiries at the police station's department... in that office erm they... they keep records of any, any information about... persons in the area and beyond. Information kept for... police eyes only. [speaker001:] A as a result of... looking at that information, the collators department. Did you learn anything? [Clive:] Yes I learned that was in fact known to... Mr. [speaker001:] So did you pass this information. [Drake:] Well, did you... did they tell you a little more than that... I mean did they tell you that er... Mr played cricket with him or something like that... or or what? He's known to him. [Clive:] A known associate sir. [Drake:] aware that had a criminal record himself... as the department said. [Clive:] Yes they did tell me that your Lordship. [Drake:] I mean what we've heard... that in fact erm... they had met in prison, but was that known to you at that time or simply that they were known to each other and that had a record? [Clive:] The actual information... you quote my Lord wasn't known to me erm it was on the cards certainly and all this information was passed to Superintendent. I made copies of the information... and these this was given to Superintendent. [Drake:] I see well... it's perhaps ultimately the important thing but erm. [Clive:] What I was trying to say my Lord was that I didn't know was associated or was associated at that time. [Drake:] I I I I'm... until you spoke to the collators department, they told you simply that they knew each other. [Clive:] That's correct my Lord. [Drake:] And that had a record. [Clive:] That's correct my Lord, yes. [Drake:] I see... and you arranged for... more information to be passed on to Superintendent is that it? [Clive:] That's correct my Lord, yes. [Drake:] Right [Clive:] No sir, my job was then to pass over to Mr who made the... ultimate decision as to what to do about the incident. It clearly wasn't something that the patrol section could do at that time. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. Because we talking about the collators department, are those the one's intelligent? [Clive:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] Did you actually see... either er car or card?... or was it all done over the telephone with somebody else looking at the card? [Clive:] I actually went to the office and er retrieved the card sir. [speaker001:] And would you say from... one of those cards, you found out that was er... an associate of or the other way round? [Clive:] No sir. I I can't be sure where I got the information from but from that time until the end of my shift at ten P M I was gleaning information from all different directions... about the and the connection. [speaker001:] But we have the original cards here as my learned friend will correct me if I'm... I'm wrong. Neither card in fact, although they do give mention of the associates for both men, neither card says that associate of the other. So it obviously didn't come from the cards. [Clive:] No sir, it, I couldn't remember but erm I'm not surprised er... between I was able to ascertain that the two were known to each other. [speaker001:] Well you see it may be important where the information came from, you didn't get it from the cards, you say you were getting information from... all directions. I know it was long time ago, but... can you now possibly recall where the information came from? [Clive:] I can't to be honest, no.... I can remember ge obtaining the collator's cards... erm and doing other enquiries but as to where that actual information came from I cannot be sure at this time. [speaker001:] What erm... what sort of other enquiries, the asking other police officers and that sort of thing? [Clive:] That would be part of it sir, certainly yes. [speaker001:] Would it have any other... major part or is that the major part? [Clive:] Sorry I don't understand. [speaker001:] Would the other, these other enquiries you made, would the major part of them be asking other police officers or... is there any other way of getting information? [Clive:] To myself it's a matter of... well my first reaction was to ask the C I D... if they knew the situation between o of, that was my first response actually to when the phone call came in, but I knew very little about. It was then we found out who oc, who was the occupant of that flat then we started to look at the connection between and. [speaker001:] And that's the only other question I have.... How physically do you find out who's the occupant of a flat? You've got an address, if you give that to the collators departments they can... give you a name for the occupier can they? [Clive:] The obvious way is through the voters register, erm as to whether... as I say I don't know, can't remember exactly where we got the details of the occupant from but t in the course of that evening the details of the occupants were found. [speaker001:] Well... yes it may be important and if if you can't to say but... did you yourself... in any event look at the voters register, the electoral role? [Clive:] I didn't sir no. [speaker001:] So again, the information as to who was the occupier was obtained by somebody else and given to you verbally. [Clive:] I believe so sir, yes, erm I can't be specific at this time. Thank you sir. [speaker001:] I my examination my Lord, does your Lordship have any questions? [Drake:] No thank you. Yes all the witnesses can leave when they've given their evidence if they wish to. [speaker001:] My Lord I call... Detective Constable. [Drake:] How do you spell the name? [speaker001:] My Lord you spell it [spelling] []. [Drake:] Good. [speaker001:] . Take the book in your hand and repeat after the. I swear by Almighty God. [Michael:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [Michael:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [Michael:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [Michael:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [Michael:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] Would give your full name and address. [Michael:] Er, Michael David... er currently stationed at. [speaker001:] And er what's your current rank? [Michael:] Detective Constable. [speaker001:] And in nineteen eighty eight where were you based? [Michael:] A at. [speaker001:] And were you a detective constable then? [Michael:] Yes I was. [speaker001:] And what was your job at the time? [Michael:] Er I was a field intelligence officer. [speaker001:] Detective could you just say to the jury what a field intelligence officer is? [Michael:] Er my job was to er... obtain intelligence on... er active, known criminals and also to develop intelligence that had been obtained by other officers. [speaker001:] Now before we come to the matter that the jury in this case, could you tell me... had you ever been to the estate? [Michael:] Yes. [speaker001:] Prior to this? [Michael:] Erm yes. [speaker001:] A and... h had you ever been there to conduct any surveillance operations? [Michael:] Er yes on a couple of occasions. [speaker001:] Tell the jury... what it was like conducting a surveillance operation on that estate. [Michael:] Er, very, very difficult er... on each occasion after about an hour er we were approached by people, knocking on the windows of our cars, asking us what we were doing. [Drake:] And you were in plain clothes were you [Michael:] Yes I was [Drake:] And in a plain clothes car [Michael:] Yes I was. [Drake:] A plain car. [Michael:] Yes. [speaker001:] Was your intention to be... not seen. [Michael:] Er... yes. [speaker001:] So it didn't work. [Michael:] Er, no obviously. [speaker001:] Now when... Mr did your... did you have an involvement in the decision to mount the operation at in September of nineteen eighty eight. [Michael:] Er, not in the decision, I I spoke to Mr and he asked me certain questions. [speaker001:] Yes... well... at that time, what did you know about Lawrence? [Michael:] Er... I'd known Lawrence since, it was either, nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six. Erm... I knew that er... he had escaped from prison. I knew he had previous convictions. Er, I knew that er he had access to firearms.... I knew that... er the circumstances of him being in prison involved er a firearm and using that firearm. Where he actually shot somebody with a sawn off shotgun.... I had been told that er... he'd made threats against his wife... and er his wife was living with somebody else at that time and he'd made threats against him.... Er, I'd been told er that he'd been in prison with Mr... er I believe it was in nineteen eighty six... and I'd also been told that in the past... er and er had planned armed robberies together. [speaker001:] Did you convey any or all of that information to Superintendent? [Michael:] I told him everything I knew. [speaker001:] Did you obtain any of that information... from the collators card... or did you know it yourself? [Michael:] No I knew it, I I phoned Mr er from my home address and er I I knew the information. [speaker001:] A and just in case it... er should become an issue... can you now produce the originals of both collators cards? [Michael:] Yes I can [speaker001:] . [Michael:] Yes. [speaker001:] A and did those cards have photographs... of the person they concern? [Michael:] Yes they do. [speaker001:] And just tell us the names of the two cards you've got there. [Michael:] Er... it's the cards regarding David... and er the other cards involving Lawrence. [speaker001:] And my Lord this stage against those cards. [Drake:] Now let me just have a look at them... thank you. [speaker001:] My Lord I can tell you that I do have a copy for the jury if your Lordship thinks. [Drake:] Well we'll see if there, if there... well the jury can have a look at them if they want, certainly... if er if neither side think they're going to be of any assistance then there's not much point in producing them.... It doesn't actually say I I I was just looking, it doesn't s... seems to go up to September nineteen eighty six... but not to say that he... had escaped from prison. [speaker001:] My Lord it may be... that the, it certainly should say that Lawrence escaped, I in my photocopy... caused the escape and who he escaped with. [Drake:] Maybe I... ah it opens up and goes further on. Simple answer to that.... If it's all er arrested for shooting of Anthony... sent to prison for five years plus six months for possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life. July nineteen eighty eight escape from prison at with one other a Mr... believed to have been a white Mercedes lorry near the prison.... And obviously, for whatever relevance it is, he was later on caught because the next entry after that is in March nineteen ninety one he was released on parole from prison. So he must have been caught in the meantime and sent back. [speaker001:] My Lord the reason I to make it clear is not... er unnecessarily it's just that to enable a police had tried to not show anything, well we've got the documents here and we're very happy to receive them. [Drake:] Oh I... I think, I think they're here and Mr has referred to them, the jury can have a look at them in due course. [speaker001:] My Lord yes. [Drake:] Er... that... that I really said it it's got a history on to an ending with the bit I've referred to. And the other one which is er... Mr... and that er has details of various convictions with er... picture of his as a... rather younger man... er, various offences going back to nineteen seventy five... and occupying quite a long space but there.... Well I don't think we need to, the jury need read them now but they're there and available for you to see in due course... yes. Good.... Well I think it's much better once things are served I think it's better the jury know that they're being shown everything of relevance. [speaker001:] Continuing told us what he knew about Lawrence. Could you now tell us what it is that you knew about Mr? [Michael:] As I said I I had been told that er he was associated with and they had been planning... ar armed robberies in the past.... er I knew that he lived at.... I knew he had a wife, I didn't know whether he had children... er and I knew that er he had previous history of er... criminal nature. [speaker001:] Again did you convey that information about Mr go Superintendent? [Michael:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] From your knowledge first of all, that Lawrence can I ask you to of how you would regard the prospect of trying to arrest him while he was armed. [Michael:] Erm, from what I knew of... erm... I knew he'd... got access to firearms. I knew he'd used firearms in the past and because he was on the run from prison... he obviously didn't want to be rearrested. [speaker001:] Yes Mr if you wait there there'll be some more questions. Yes, you got the cards, you can therefore confirm can't you that neither man an associate of the other on the cards. [Michael:] Er yes that's correct. [speaker001:] It may therefore become of some importance, who it was told you that they'd been in prison together and so were at least known to each other. Can you remember that? [Michael:] Erm, before the event I was told by more than one... person. [speaker001:] Well can you remember who they were? [Michael:] No no. [speaker001:] Can you even remember whether this had been volunteered to you, weeks or months before or is this something you found out by asking around that day? [Michael:] Er it was volunteered to me before that day. [speaker001:] Mr may I ask... you also had been told by somebody that they been planning armed robberies together. I don't suppose you can remember who told you that? [Michael:] No... no I can't. [speaker001:] You can confirm this that... there have been any convictions for er er er two men conspiring to commit armed robbery or anything of that sort have there? [Michael:] No no no previous convictions. [speaker001:] Mr got erm... I understand that no convictions, even for armed robbery itself. [Michael:] No. [speaker001:] I don't think Lawrence got any convictions for armed robbery has he, or that there are any subsequently? [Michael:] Er, no he's got no previous convictions for armed robbery.... He's been suspected of committing armed robbery but no convictions. [speaker001:] On the er second of December, did you speak to er... Mr the officer who just gave evidence? [Michael:] No I didn't. [speaker001:] So it couldn't have been you that told him... that er and were associates. [Michael:] No.... I spoke to Mr. [speaker001:] Do you know the circumstances in which er Lawrence was recaptured? [Michael:] Er... no I I just know that he was er recaptured... in nineteen eighty nine I believe. [speaker001:] For instance er could you tell the jury whether there was er any violence or any firearms involved in that recapture? [Michael:] No... I I cannot recall. I don't think it was in Bedfordshire. I think it was somewhere else. [speaker001:] But you are in you can't recall. [Michael:] No... I did visit Lawrence in prison after he was recaptured... er and spoke to him about various things, including this er... this incident and he did confirm that he had been at flat er for a couple of days... er befo before the actual search. [Drake:] answers my question... but it's of some considerable relevance isn't it. Did he tell you that he'd been at flat... I mean years before or near the date of this or what? [Michael:] No it was during the conversation he er... he said that I hear that you went to flat... and I said yes and he said er... well you just missed me, I'd been there a couple of days before. [speaker001:] Well your Honour there are a number of matters arising out of my Lord, there are a number of mat matters arising out of that. [Drake:] Yes. [speaker001:] Firstly it wasn't put... secondly is inadmissible... thirdly it wasn't marked as a question.... Fourthly I very much expect, although it's not obvious that erm my Lord how it's going to be said. Perhaps it's a matter that erm... needs to be discussed at rather more length than that. [Drake:] Well... here you are. It's come out, it's part of, part of what we've heard. [speaker001:] My Lord rules of evidence apply in this court. It is not admissible as evidence, it's been volunteered to the jury... erm my Lord it needs to be dealt with in more detail than that. [Drake:] Alright well... to consider it in due course anyway, for the moment there it is. [speaker001:] I am obliged. My Lord nobody any questions. [Drake:] No as long as you've finished Mr because I think you erm... introduced the topic of erm... when he was recaptured. [Denser:] My Lord yes. My Lord let me speak plainly, I introduced the topic of when he was recaptured, I asked nothing about what was. [Drake:] No, I I agree with that but I wondered if you had stopped because you introduced the topic and... then when when this involuntary and unexpected answer came up you sat down and I thought you might have pursued your original questions. [Denser:] My Lord no. I have an application to make to your Lordship er in due course when your Lordship feels it is appropriate for an application to be made. [Drake:] Alright... fine.... Good, well thank you Mr. [speaker001:] My Lord call Superintendent. [Denser:] My Lord on reflection before er this officer gives evidence, er unless your Lordship rules otherwise I'd like to make that application now and er that would allow the er... jury a short period of erm rest until. [Drake:] Well i is it simply an application that the jury be directed to take no notice of the answer you've just missed me, because it's not admissible evidence. [speaker001:] No it's right, it is not just an application for that effect. [Drake:] [LAUGHTER] I see [] alright well... or I I invite members of the jury, the council wants to to address me on some point of law which needn't concern you, so if you take a short break please. The council says it will be short, I don't know what it is yet.... Mr had better remain while this is going on.... Remain in court Mr.... Yes Mr. [Denser:] My Lord this is course made I apologise for the of authority to support it. Er, in my respectful submission er some of inadmissible evidence put before a jury are simply too important and too central... for a jury to be directed to disregard and then safely... er to the which we known that the jury will disregard them. If for instance this was a criminal trial as to which will rule this to inadmissibility exactly the same. In my respectful submission there could be A, no question that the jury would be discharged and B, in the submission er some er judicial displeasure of an experienced police officer volunteering what any police officer must know is A inadmissible and B not an answer to the question. Now my Lord I'm... I make the application with no... with no joy at all but the for a day... this matter has proceeded on the basis that yes these two men might have known each other, but that's as far as it goes. Nothing else. [Drake:] Well no... erm... didn't he, didn't Mr say he had... met? [Denser:] Oh but my Lord yes, but what I meant was nothing else was put as a far more serious suggestion. [Drake:] S so then the evidence is that they did know each other, begging what know exactly entails, but that's not in dispute. [Denser:] No it isn't but what was not put was that... er if the police had got there a couple of days earlier they would have caught because I was half. [Drake:] It wasn't put here, unfortunately of course in this case there have been no witness statements exchanged. It's another oddity about this case, an irregularity I would say, all these cases always have an exchange of witness statements. Why... weren't they exchanged in this case? [Denser:] Well as I understand it the er... these lawyers for the defendants took the view that as all the statements had been prepared for the police complaints authority investigation, public immunity er... yes er public interest immunity attached to them. I don I should also say that following a very recent decision er in our submission that's probably right, that my Lord... as I say, I say to you with no joy, this really is desperate and er one cannot have, in our submission, in the minds of the jury by inadmissible evidence, the suggestion that yes we have been harbouring this man two days before. It. [Drake:] But it's not part of the... the police case here, that they... knew at the time that they entered the flat. That that er had been in the flat two days before. This was something which has come out... that an officer was told by for better, for truth or for untruth a year or so later. [Denser:] Yes my Lord but postulate this situation. The jury comes to a conclusion that... er... the police er took whatever degree of reasonableness was breached, that the raid shouldn't have been made on the day it was. When they come to consider the plaintiff's damages, it must be highly material... that they then may say to themselves, however, this would family was harbouring this dangerous criminal two days beforehand. Well, I think it's premature any isn't it Mr. On the state of the evidence at the moment, it may well be that there will be a request for to withdraw the case from the jury on the grounds that no reasonable jury properly directed could conceivably find er a anything other than reasonableness in the police... acting upon the information they had... and that's for me to decide. Well,e e er my Lord. [Drake:] An an and to speak quite bluntly on the state of the evidence at the moment it seems that that is a very possible end to this case, in which case, in which case the jury won't even get round to having this matter. [Denser:] My Lord there will be... as your Lordship will know, my friend and I have been er talking outside about questions. There are other subsidiaries used that do have to go through the jury, particularly what happens in relation to Mrs and the children, as my friend opened it to erm... opened it to the er jury. [Drake:] But, but erm what subsidiary questions? [Denser:] As regards Mrs er and the children, whether er it's now been admitted that she was arrested and kept in that living room, whether that arrest er was lawful or not. As regards res as my friend put it in opening, The police were justified in restraining Mr and Mrs... in the way that they were restrained. Those are matters that are going to have. But even if. [speaker001:] Your Lordship may well find it was reasonable for... the police to act on this information. But that still leaves for the jury in submission, A, whether they used reasonable force... yes reasonable to act, but was it reasonable force to act, was it a reasonable method of acting, by which I mean time of er, time of the incident. [Drake:] Well again that may be that erm the evidence will be such that I... think that I ought to erm give the decision on it. I don't know yet, let's hear all the evidence. [Denser:] Well I'm it'll stop that your Lordship erm from... er er from so holding. [Drake:] But I'm not going to discharge a jury in a case where I think it quite possible the jury won't be required to give any, to give any verdict. [Denser:] Well my Lord so be it. The application's been made I didn't want to waste time before making the application and it had been [Drake:] Very well, thank you Mr.... I must just stretch my legs while the jury are coming back... alright.... Yes Mr next witness. [speaker001:] Lord I call Superintendent please. Take the book in your hand I swear by Almighty God. [Michael:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [Michael:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [Michael:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [Michael:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [Michael:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] . [Michael:] Yes sir, I'm Michael Charles er police Superintendent in the at present stationed at er at the time of this incident I was the operations Superintendent at. [speaker001:] Erm... Superintendent were you involved in the decision to forcibly enter the flat we know about? [Michael:] Yes sir I was. [speaker001:] And how did your involvement begin? [Michael:] On the evening of... Sunday the fourth of November, er I received a telephone call at my home address [clears throat] from er Inspector.... He told me that the telephonist at the police station had received a telephone call from a man saying that an escaped prisoner, a Lawrence er was to be found at er the home of a David... and that the... er Lawrence was in possession of a hand gun. [speaker001:] Superintendent what was your response or your initial reaction to that information? [Michael:] I needed more... er information on both of those persons, David and Lawrence er and I asked Inspector er to... make enquiries regarding those persons and to come back to me with that information. [speaker001:] And er did he get back to you? [Michael:] Yes er he eventually... er I in fact spoke to a Detective Inspector... er at the police station er... he informed me that... er Detective Constable had a good knowledge of these persons and I therefore instructed that... er D C make contact with me... which he did... a short time later that evening. [speaker001:] And er perhaps you could briefly confirm what information he gave to you. [Michael:] He told me that he knew... both individuals... er that Lawrence er was an escaped prisoner. Er that he... had received a prison sentence er for in fact being in possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life.... He reminded me of the circumstances of the incident resulting in that conviction... which er was in fact that erm had actually... er fired a weapon at a person causing injury. [speaker001:] Did he er... tell you anything about? [Michael:] Yes sir... he told me... that er [clears throat] would know because they ha had been together in prison... and that he also had information that they had been planning armed robberies together. [speaker001:] Superintendent did you... er ask... D C to give his opinion of a non-armed intervention? [Michael:] Yes, er I... I asked P C if his relationship... er with was such that he would have any influence er... with regard to erm getting him to er surrender... er. His view was that... erm... if he was armed... he had been armed in the past, he had discharged a firearm, he felt that... er he would be in a desperate position erm, as he was an escaped prisoner and that he he wouldn't have erm any influence over him. [speaker001:] Did you er Superintendent yourself consider whether... perhaps there should be some undercover surveillance of this flat? [Michael:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] What view did you arrive at? [Michael:] There are a number of options erm that I considered.... I considered... erm arm unarmed officers actually making an enquiry er at the... flat.... But erm did not pursue this... er... because I considered it too dangerous erm and any information you gained would not be conclusive.... I considered... keeping observation actually on the flat... but because of its its location, did not feel that it would be possible for armed officers... or for that matter, any officer,... to maintain observation for any period of time without being seen. [speaker001:] Just pausing there a minute, did you have did you I should say, have personal experience of that estate? [Michael:] Yes sir I did. [speaker001:] Did you then consider the use of guns, firearms? [Michael:] Er yes.... Er, in the light of the information at that time and the options I had already considered... erm I thought... it was likely that we would need armed police officers. [speaker001:] And er... Superintendent what did you do then? [Michael:] It is necessary... I had come to that view for me, at that time it was necessary for me to contact one of the duty Chief Officers... and on this occasion it was the Assistant Chief Constable Mr, so I made contact with him. [speaker001:] A and what did you tell, ask him? [Michael:] Well I gave him all the information that had been given to me... and we discussed between us... various options that were open to us.... At the conclusion of which... we were both of the view that an armed police operation was necessary... and he therefore authorised armed police officers to be used and I was to command the incident. [speaker001:] Can you remember roughly what time on the fourth that conversation took place? [Michael:] That was at seven fifty P M. [speaker001:] You said that you were in operational control. Does it follow, if it's not an obvious question. You had overall control of the further implementation of this operation? [Michael:] Yes sir, that's correct. [speaker001:] So responsibility was in your hands? [Michael:] From that moment it was my responsibility. [speaker001:] Please tell the jury, on a sort of general point here, when you were in charge of an armed raid, what are the considerations? [Michael:] Well, the consideration first of all, is the safety to the public.... er... the next consideration is the safety of the police officers and then we also take into account that in this priority the the safety of the er the criminal and... an armed operation would not be taken if... it was possible to achieve the objective... er in some other way. But ultimately it is what is the safest option that I would have to go for. [speaker001:] Who was to be in... in control of the tactics to be used for the operation? [Michael:] Operational er... commanders of incidents erm have a, what is called a firearms tactical advisor, er a highly trained officer who is made available to people in the position that I then found myself, er in order that they can advise as to the tactics to follow and my tactical advisor on this occasion was er Sergeant. [speaker001:] Is Sergeant someone you have worked with before? [Michael:] On a number of occasions yes. [speaker001:] H how did you view the prospect of working with Sergeant? [Michael:] I I regarded him as a a professional, highly trained officer... er confidence in his judgement. [speaker001:] Following the decision to mount the operation on the evening of the fourth of December, er did you have any further involvement indeed, as of that evening? [Michael:] Yes... erm I had, I then actually went to the police station... to see if... any further information was to hand, er I spoke again to Inspector... erm... to ask if there was any further information he could give me.... He said that his assessment, the telephonist's assessment of the call was that that he was genuine. He added at this time that the further information was that the occupants of the flat at we were frightened of I also. [Drake:] He had... what did you say?... He thought they were frightened or... the telephonist or what?

[speaker001:] Was genuine... he added at this time that er the further information was that the occupants of the flat at were frightened of. [Drake:] H h he had, what did he say?... He thought they were frightened or the telephonist or or what? [Michael:] Er my Lord, the added bit of information that was, that... erm... was then passed to me was that when the man rang the police station the information that he gave to the telephonist included the fact that the occupants of the flat were frightened. [Drake:] Right right. [speaker001:] said he went to the police station but it follows that you were were at home which. [Michael:] I was at home er up until that point. [speaker001:] Were you on duty at home or off duty at home? [Michael:] I was off duty, but on call. [speaker001:] On making those further enquiries you've just told us about at the police station.... Did you er, were you satisfied the operation should continue as discussed with Assistant Chief Officer. [Michael:] I also met the... police station er Sergeant and... and... after discussing further the matters with him... erm then I was happy an armed operation was... er was necessary. [speaker001:] Superintendent if any other information had come to light... over the next few hours would you have... reconsidered the matter? [Michael:] Depending on the information, yes... erm. [speaker001:] So without really putting it more bluntly er, was there always the option to call this off? [Michael:] There was always the option to call this off... er to the very last moment when erm I gave the order for the officers to go in. [speaker001:] Was there at some time then, a briefing for the officers who were going to go into the flat? [Michael:] Yes, [clears throat] it was five fifteen A M of the following morning, at. [speaker001:] Who conducted the briefing? [Michael:] Sergeant... mainly er gave the briefing [clears throat] and after going through the formality of giving er the officers the deb the information that had been received [clears throat] er our intention... erm a method by which we going to follow this through erm and other information such as radio call signs.... erm... I then asked er additional questions to see what the... up to the minute information was at that time. [speaker001:] at that meeting were you satisfied the operation should continue? [Michael:] Yes I I was... erm... the additional information that was available to me at this time, er Sergeant the... er having left me the previous night er had actually, had gone to the premises erm, gone to the flats erm and had er... put himself in the area of the flat and... was able to tell me that he had heard voices, two male voices coming from within the flat. [speaker001:] Did you yourself... take part in the operation to go in with the guns?... In other words did you the flat? [Michael:] Er, no... er that... only armed officers actually erm would go into the flat. [speaker001:] So you were not. [Michael:] . [speaker001:] What was your role during the search? [Michael:] I was the commander and... er I was erm in a control vehicle, a police vehicle, er was parked nearby to the flat. [speaker001:] And what is that... vehicle called, is it only. [Michael:] Well it is the, it's the control vehicle er which contains myself and my tactical advisor er Sergeant. [speaker001:] Yes. [Michael:] And we were in radio contact with the firearms team. [speaker001:] The same consideration given Superintendent to... the question of medical facilities. [Michael:] Yes... we were actually erm, the position of the... control vehicle was erm in front of an ambulance that we had asked to to be there and the crew were briefed as to what we were doing... and... and what injuries possibly could arise. [speaker001:] Did you for the operation? [Michael:] I did so, yes. [speaker001:] Do you remember the... approximate time of that. [Michael:] [clears throat] I think it was about six A M. [speaker001:] And did you... in due course, go to the flat? [Michael:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] When did you go to the flat? [Michael:] Er... it was a short time after, having given the order for the officers to enter the flat, erm... maybe three or four minutes after that... erm, having received the information that the flat was secure, it was safe to enter... er I then went up to the flat. [speaker001:] Did Sergeant accompany you to the flat? [Michael:] No he did not. [Drake:] Sergeant? yes. [speaker001:] ... On arriving at the flat... did you speak to Mr? [Michael:] Yes... er it would be more accurate to say he spoke to me.... He he was very excitable, excitable and he was angry... erm... he was shouting at me... er that he'd been spreadeagled naked er on the floor, guns had been pointed at him and his front door had been smashed down... and his er his family, his wife and children had been frightened. [speaker001:] Pausing there Superintendent. When you first saw Mr... was he wearing anything upon the lower part of his body? [Michael:] He had his trousers on. [speaker001:] Was he... still handcuffed or were the handcuffs off? [Michael:] He was not handcuffed. [speaker001:] Did you say anything to him? [Michael:] Yes I did... er... I sh I won't say the exact words but they were words to the effect that er... that I was sorry, that I understood and appreciated that er... erm his family would have been terrified by the experience. Erm that we had no alternative to do what we did... er that C I D officers would speak to him and I believe that he would better understand er wh why we have done what we did... er and I assured him that the damage to his door will would be repaired. [speaker001:] Did you speak to er Mrs at all? [Michael:] I did not, no. [speaker001:] how long had you been in the police force? [Michael:] Er thirty two years. [speaker001:] So could you. When you rang... what did you know about the occupiers of the flat. That is how many there were and who they were? [Michael:] I knew that... er... Mr er lived there... and probably his wife, er maybe nothing more. [speaker001:] Sorry, but maybe nothing more. Did you know any more or didn't you know any more? [Michael:] Well I I've answered that way sir, cos I can't be sure. [speaker001:] Well let me put it plainly, did you or did you not know that there were two children or three children indeed in that flat? [Michael:] I at no time, erm... until after the incident, knew that. [speaker001:] Did you make any enquiries and if so what enquiries, to try to find out who the occupiers? [Michael:] Only from... a record that would have been available at the police station or from officers knowledge. [speaker001:] Well what did those enquiries reveal? [Michael:] That Mr er... did live at the flat erm with his wife, there may have been children but we didn't know for certain and that the previous night two male persons appeared to have been there. [speaker001:] So when Assistant Chief Constable told the jury yesterday I would have discussed the question of who were the occupiers before giving my authority... that was, do you remember that. That was presumably then that we think Lawrence was there, it's flat, we think his wife's there. There may be children. That. [Michael:] If I think that yes. [speaker001:] Now... this sort of er... I don't want to use the word raid. This sort of operation needs to be authorised and doesn't it?... Not just the arming of the... officers, that needs one authorisation but on forcible entry needs another authorisation doesn't it? [Michael:] Erm... no sir. [speaker001:] So you made the decision that there'd be a forcible entry to this flat, is that right? [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] At six in the morning. [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] But you say that that decision and the reasons for it were never... er, and the authority for it, the reasons for it, were never reduced to. [Michael:] Er, the only authority that was given was the authority to arm the officers by... Mr which he would have put in to writing, er he was aware as to the method of entry to the of the flat... but that... no authority, no written authority was given for that. [speaker001:] What my solicitors finding from a letter... let me tell you why I ask. There was a police complaints authority investigation into all of this. [Michael:] That is correct. [speaker001:] The letter which has just been found... refers to something like called a police operational order authorising the raid, saying that had disappeared by the time the police complaints authority started looking for it. Have you any idea what that refers to? [Michael:] Yes I have... er it would refer to the operational order. Erm the, it refers to... an operational order er, an operational order... is not a document that actually authorises police officers to do something. It it sets out... erm what the information is, er what the intention is, the method that we would follow er any communications, any administration. It's a, it's a briefing document so that er all those involved are, that all those that are involved on the operation erm, are as well informed as is possible. [Drake:] Erm, I'm at a lost on this. You're being asked erm you told us you rang up the Assistant Chief Constable who gave you the authority to carry out the armed operation. [Michael:] Yes my Lord. [Drake:] Now at that stage... you were doing it on the telephone were you? [Michael:] That's correct my Lord. [Drake:] So you didn't have a letter there and then and asked something about was it put into writing. [speaker001:] No no no er [Michael:] Well that, sorry I I I've lost it, so let's. [speaker001:] A Mr yesterday, he was just authorising the use of firearms and he said that was put into writing and we've got that form but that only authorises the issue of firearms... er the practicality, the authorising and the carrying out of the raid isn't covered by that document. It's covered by the document this officer's. [Drake:] And when does the authority to issue the firearms, when's that signed? [speaker001:] Er... it was er... well it said, I think. Lord would it help if, the issue of firearms authorisation which was signed by Assistant Chief Constable [Drake:] I really wanted to know when it was done. [speaker001:] The verbal authoris authorisation was given at seven fifty... P M on the fourth of December and there was a subsequent tactical, the tactical advisor Sergeant spoke to the Assistant Chief Constable at eight fifteen. Both those times are recorded, I've got copies for the jury. [Drake:] But I'm I I I'm not sure what relevance it is, I mean is this some procedure that it's got to be reduced into writing? [speaker001:] My Lord if I can help. I think what what point is being made is... er albeit from assistance from should have been referred is that an operation will always have been drawn up. It's a very simple matter and it it, there's no so even if the jury are about to hear it from the witness. Which like the breaching order in effect. It just sets out the information with any further suggestions. Sergeant will give evidence as to why he supported it afterwards. there's no legal. [Drake:] No right then, the... we know this er... isn't an issue that the Assistant Chief Constable said you can go ahead with this operation. Well I I I'm not sure what... what document is now being referred to. Some document that erm was produced and lost at some point or. [speaker001:] My Lord, I think the case is being made if I may say so sir, to give the jury the impression that the police just document. The police destroyed the document in question, they'll tell you why they have destroyed it. [Drake:] There was here some enquiry and the that enquiry as a matter of public policy I understand the documents aren't to be available, even if they assist the police, or if they assist the other side. [speaker001:] But my Lord. [Drake:] It's simply something that we're all bound by. [speaker001:] My Lord yes, [Drake:] Yes well then I'm not sure,wh what is this document Mr? [Denser:] As er the officer was saying it's a briefing document prepared before the raid, therefore of course it's not covered by public interest immunity. The reason I'm in it is that document, as the officer says, sets out the information given as the offer as the officer put it. That is the information on which the police were acting when they decided it was reasonable to take this action. [Drake:] Right. [Denser:] I just wanted to know what that information was, that's all. But if the document doesn't exist, it doesn't exist unless... you can remember what the information was on that document but I would imagine. [Michael:] Only that it would have contained the information er as I've detailed already. [clears throat] [speaker001:] Now would you, I think it must be right that you were at the at five fifteen in the morning conducted by Sergeant. [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] Broadly... were the policemen being told they were dealing with a hostage situation, or a harbouring situation? [Michael:] I'm not actually sure that either... er was mentioned erm, what they would have been told... er was that there was an escaped prisoner there er who was armed... and our intention was to arrest him. Now I do not actually recall... er us going into detail about the harbouring... er and I certainly don't recall erm that we were talking about a hostage situation. [speaker001:] Well it's just that... it's the Chief Constable's case that when... er er sorry when was... got from his bed he was told that he was being arrested for harbouring... and escapee... Lawrence. Have you any idea... which ever officer said that... formed the impression that it was a harbouring situation? [Michael:] No... er... that is a matter for the officer er to answer. [speaker001:] The only other thing is this. The armed police went into the flat and you and Sergeant stayed in the control vehicle. [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] Some time subsequently... you yourself went to the flat. [Michael:] Yes sir. [speaker001:] Did any... other police officers go into the flat in, to your knowledge, go into the flat in that interval. I mean after the armed police officers but before you? [Michael:] It's quick like quite likely that C I D officers almost certainly, C I D officers would have gone before me. [speaker001:] So when Mr said that... the firearms office majority of language, when the firearms officer said wait for the C I D and then... some other policemen arrived and then you, that may well be right because from what you say it may well be that the C I D did get to the flat after the officers but before? [Michael:] That's right. [speaker001:] Great. My Lord I have no real examination to do, does your Lordship have any questions? [Drake:] Er and where would the se. You were in a car, the control car. [Michael:] Yes my Lord. [Drake:] How far away from the flat? [Michael:] Initially... probably about er three hundred yards er in a in a side junction erm, but as, once the ins once the operation had commenced erm we moved up... onto the car park actually on, below the flats. [Drake:] And erm, where were the C I D officers whilst the armed officers went in? [Michael:] I'm not actually sure... erm. [Drake:] Well would they be close at hand? [Michael:] They would have been close at hand my Lord... erm... I just don't know, it may be that, I think they were probably in a vehicle also close at hand ready to. [Drake:] Yes.... Yes, thank you erm Mr. [speaker001:] My Lord I call er Sergeant. Take the book in your hand and repeat after. I swear by Almighty God. [Isles:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [Isles:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [Isles:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [Isles:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [Isles:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] Thank you. Sergeant tell where you currently live. [Isles:] I live in er a province of in Spain my Lord. [speaker001:] And er retired from the police force now? [Isles:] I have yes. [Drake:] I thought it was exclusively terrible criminals that live in that part of the world. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Drake:] Perhaps I've been watching too much television... yes. [speaker001:] Wh when did you retire Sergeant? [Isles:] I retired in er September last year, nineteen ninety two. [speaker001:] And in... December of nineteen eighty eight, er what was your rank and where were you positioned? [Isles:] I was a Sergeant at er police headquarters and my duties... amongst er others was as a senior tactical advisor for the police force... on firearms matters. [speaker001:] My Lord, first of all... can I just ask whether you could... tell the jury something about the training of firearms officers? [Isles:] Yes. Initially er... all firearms officers by the nature of the duties, are volunteers. They receive no extra remuneration whatsoever for their duties although at some times of course it can be quite dangerous.... Er, applications are accepted from all officers who have completed... a two year period of probation and no applications are considered whilst an officer is in his probation. First and foremost erm there is an assessment of those officers by their immediate supervisors and er a then ensues whereby er suitable officers are s selected to come for a two day assessment at er police headquarters. [speaker001:] Just pausing there, I think it will become relevant. What is the purpose of that assessment by the police? [Isles:] The assessment by the police is to eliminate erm... any officer that... er has... psychopathic tendencies... or er... on the other side of the coin, to eliminate those officers that erm might be so timid that they wouldn't be able to perform the duties should it be necessary for them to fire... a weapon. [Drake:] You eliminate those who are too timid or those you think are too aggressive. [Isles:] Precisely my Lord. [speaker001:] So Mr it would perhaps be right to think then that you're looking for... cover for the firearms unit? [Isles:] Certainly not no, certainly not. [speaker001:] And after they've that psychological assessment. Is there any other assessment of their capabilities? [Isles:] Yes er a physical assessment er... takes place, they're given er a medical, eyesight, hearing tests... and going on from that er er a one day assessment in the actual use of firearms takes place before they are actually selected to er attend a preliminary course of two weeks duration. [speaker001:] And what does the preliminary two week course involve? [Isles:] It involves all aspects of erm the law in relation to firearms, their issue, their use... er great emphasis placed on er section three of the criminal law act in respect of the use of... reasonable force.... Their actual ability to fire a weapon, a hand gun in this case. Their... ability to react to given situations using slide and a film projector images... and er a written examination at the er end of it, plus a full classification... shoot whereby they have to reach a certain standard... erm of... ability in order to er pass the two week course. [speaker001:] Mr I assume it's are they free to go out and use firearms? [Isles:] No... erm... they are then authorised and issued with an authorisation card following the successful completion of the course to carry a firearm on police duties if required... er, the authorisation is issued by... either the Chief Constable or... er his deputy and... that would enable the officer if required to go an armoury at one of the police stations... and produce his card and be issued with a weapon if necessary. That card er contains information... er regarding er the law and er instructions to the officer... in addition each officer receives er a set amount of training per month. At the time of this incident... the incident was carried out by a group of officers... who were called the operational support unit.... Those officers were especially selected... from erm the firearms officers we had available at that time... and they were responsible for all firearms operations within the county. They've trained in addition to the once a month or even twice a month, they've trained whenever their duties allowed. [speaker001:] Mr in December nineteen eighty eight, how long had you been a firearms officer, or tactical advisor? [Isles:] I an authorised officer in nineteen sixty eight, so it'd have been twenty years and... er from there I became er an instructor in nineteen eighty four... er having successfully completed a number of national... run courses on firearms, firearms tactics at the national school of firearms... er which are in the metropolitan district and er... Lancashire and West Yorkshire. [speaker001:] And... just finally on the Mr... are you able to put an approximate number, er figure to the... number of such operations you've been involved in? [Isles:] Hundreds. [speaker001:] Could you tell us what your role was in the operation... to go into? [Isles:] Yes er my role was the tactical advisor on this operation... and... in doing that. [speaker001:] What were the name what does tactical advisor mean? [Isles:] It meant because of my experience and my knowledge I was erm able to advise the Superintendent in charge, Mr, on... the various options that were available to him and also erm... advise him whether he was considering other options, whether they would be safe or otherwise. [speaker001:] Do you remember at what time you were contacted... approximately? [Isles:] I think about eight o'clock in the evening at home. [speaker001:] Did you then go to? [Isles:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] And... did you go to the planning question at all before the operation? [Isles:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] And when was that? [Isles:] I recollect about half past ten that evening on the fourth. [speaker001:] And er what was in the flat? [Isles:] It wasn't my intention originally to go to the flat, it was my intention to... reconnoitre the area... in order that I could supply the officers who were going to do... the actual operation with up to date information as to... erm... the methods of getting in to the block of flats because they had a coded key door... erm and to acquaint myself of the actual physical erm... presence of lifts, stairways and that sort of thing.... As it was er... quite late on a Sunday evening I did in fact take the opportunity... to... listen at the door of the flat in question. [speaker001:] And what did you hear... anything? [Isles:] Yes, I heard... two men speaking... and the possibility of either another man or a woman also in the premises. [speaker001:] And as a result of that... reconnoitre, where did you then go? [Isles:] I then returned back to the er... police station where I commenced to write the operational order in respect of the incident. [speaker001:] And is the operational order... er the document that is being referred to be the plaintiff's council. [Isles:] Yes it is. [speaker001:] And what would you put in that document? [Isles:] The document is... basically a briefing document in order that... every piece of information... erm that is available to the police is then able to be passed on to the officers who are actually going to do the job. So they they are fully aware... of the implications and... er fully aware of exactly what... is required of them. [speaker001:] Sergeant before I take you on to deal with the briefing itself, I just want to go back and ask you one thing. The jury twenty years in time and with the information you had from... Superintendent, did you consider that instead of mounting a an operation like that, you should simply surround the flat or be with. Did you consider that? [Isles:] Yes it was considered. Er in fact it was put to me as as an option by Superintendent that this could be, if this could be done... er at the time er... if I recall... one of the reasons erm... that we weren't able to do it in such a way... was that there are numerous... exits to the block of flats and each exit would have had to be covered by at least two armed officers... we only only had in the region of twenty five officers available to us at that time in the police who were authorised to be armed... and to maintain such a surveillance, erm not only would be... very costly in the terms of the number of officers.... There would have to be changes of shifts, er and the likelihood that the operation to erm, the surveillance operation would be compromised as a result. [speaker001:] How long do firearms officers spend on such a surveillance shift? [Isles:] The minimum amount of time that is necessary er in... an operation such as this... when the operation is finished the officers are then allowed to go home, that's the end of their shift because erm... there's a great deal of adrenalin flows on an operation like this. On a surveillance operation... we are looking at, I wouldn't like to see an officer who is armed, more than six hours... in that position. His ability to A function as a surveillance office and B to function as a armed officer after being maybe in the er in a vehicle for that length of time... er is... both dangerous to the public and dangerous to him. [speaker001:] Yes there are four exits and entrances to this block of flats with two officers on each entrance, that's eight officers to start with. [Isles:] Presumably you have a command post? Yes. [speaker001:] So that's... within six hours you would have worked your way through... more than half of your compliment of armed officers? [Isles:] Correct. [speaker001:] That's ignoring sickness, holiday and everything else? [Isles:] Yes. [speaker001:] And do we understand from your reference, that it's... your policy that armed officers should do that job and then get home, get out of the way and relax a bit? [Isles:] Yes, that is correct... erm... in my experience er both being... erm on armed incidents er... the adrenalin flow is tremendous, the officers are erm... concentrating one hundred and fifty percent on their task in hand and it is very tiring work. It's a constant threat of danger and... after debrief... which takes place in the police station, erm... relaxation is necessary erm, we have the availability of er stress counselling... as well and... a period of about two hours normally elapses before the officers is... er reasonably able to... er function as a normal police officer again and because of this er it has been decided that the officer's duties for that day er will be terminated. [speaker001:] They're not like junior house doctors who do a ninety two hour week... just work until they drop? [Isles:] They often do ninety two hours a week but erm... wouldn't do ninety two hours a week on an operation, certainly not. [speaker001:] Well let's move on now to try to... the briefing. Did you conduct the briefing? [Isles:] Yes, in conjunction with Superintendent. [speaker001:] And when did you conduct it? [Isles:] Er the briefing was held at er the briefing room at... at five fifteen A M on the. [speaker001:] And... who selected the officers for the operation? [Isles:] The officers for the operation were selected by their commander... erm the inspector in charge of the operational support unit. I would ask him... on authorisation from er the Assistant Chief Constable, I would ask him for a number of officers. [speaker001:] And how many did you ask for in this case? [Isles:] Six armed officers, but I would also require other members of the operational support unit to support those officers in a non-armed role. [speaker001:] Yes... and... at the briefing, just tell us first of all what... you said about the objective of the operation. [Isles:] The objective of the operation was to arrest... Mr... with the proviso that... it was to be done... with the safety of the public to be paramount... and that the safety of the police officers and Mr was also to be considered.... But the main objective... was to search the house to see if Mr was there. [speaker001:] On on a briefing for an operation do you have to give further... recommendation to advise on... instructions about the use of guns or is that part and parcel of training? [Isles:] No er at er briefing, officers are again reminded of their responsibilities within the law, as to reasonable force... and even when the officer issuing firearms, which is not myself, er... an officer of inspector rank issues the firearms, er arms to the individual officers, they are again reminded of their responsibilities within the criminal law. [speaker001:] Were the officers to be equipped with radios? [Isles:] Yes. [speaker001:] And would the radios be used... once they were in the flat? [Isles:] That would be a decision of the officer in charge of the actual operation... erm that was actually going into the flat but it was normal practice that radios would be switched off. [speaker001:] And who was, who was the officer who would lead them into the flat? [Isles:] The officer erm... lead them into the flat was... Sergeant. [Drake:] Sergeant? [Isles:] [spelling] []. [speaker001:] Have you... ever worked with Sergeant before? [Isles:] Yes I have. [speaker001:] Do you have confidence in him to conduct this operation? [Isles:] Yes I did. [speaker001:] What was the decision as to how you would physically enter the flat? [Isles:] The police force... at that time were in possession of what is known as an automatic door opener.... This piece of er equipment was er purchased some... short time before in order that... er we could enter, heavily secured doors er with a minimum amount of noise in order to... er... gain entry to premises where... there was a possible armed incident taking place, or a possible hostage situation. [speaker001:] Do we understand from that that... you wish to gain entry without alerting the occupants? [Isles:] That is the intention yes. [speaker001:] And... does that have a bearing on the time that you conduct such operations? [Isles:] It is a medical fact that... the body is at its lowest ebb between three and six in the morning... and the ability to... react, the ability to... think when one is being woken up in the early hours of the morning erm are a consideration that we take into account when we have to mount an operation inside a premises. Er, if the person er is sitting watching the television... and er has been awake for several hours then we are at a disadvantage. [speaker001:] In addition to the firearms that tell us about and the door opener, was any other equipment issued to the officers? [Isles:] Yes the officers... [cough] excuse me, the officers would be issued with a ballistic shield, this is a piece of equipment that... is erm... bullet proof to certain weapons and enables officers to er enter rooms er through doorways safely, even if shots are fired towards them from inside the room. [speaker001:] And could you just briefly describe... the er... the dimensions and the look of that? [Isles:] It's about six feet in height and just about shoulder width, er it's coloured black and it has a bullet proof glass window of about six inches by four inches which enables the er... officer behind the shield to manoeuvre it in the correct position. [speaker001:] Do firearms officers have any training in first aid? [Isles:] Yes all firearms officers are trained first aiders... and er carry St. Johns ambulance certificates. [speaker001:] Is there anything about the preparation of this... operation that caused you to dissatisfaction? [Isles:] No, none at all. [speaker001:] After you conducted the briefing, where did you go? [Isles:] I went with er Superintendent to... er where we positioned ourselves in a control vehicle and er... I remained there until I heard from the firearms team inside the house that all occupants of the house had been found and were secured. [speaker001:] Mr it's been suggested... from my plaintiff... that it took ten to fifteen minutes to enter and secure the flat by the firearms officers. Do you have any observation on that time scale? [Isles:] I would say... from the point where I was told on the radio that the officers were entering the premises to... the point where I was told everybody was secured, could not be more than four five minutes.... That was my recollection. [speaker001:] Mr thank you very much if you wait there. Yes it only took four or five minutes until you were told the occupants were secure but then it er everybody waited for the C I D to arrive. Do you, do you know how long that took? [Isles:] C I D were actually backed in the building. They weren't in the actual flat at that time er their role was to er... prevent members of the public whilst the... armed officers were at the scene erm from entering the corridors at either end of the block of flats. [speaker001:] Did you go to the flat with er... I do apologise Mr when he went? [Isles:] I did, I did go to the er the flat shortly after Mr. I didn't go inside the premises, I just er went there to remove er the er automatic door opener. [speaker001:] And how long had elapsed between the armed officers going in and Mr... leaving flats? [Isles:] No no more than five minutes I would say. [speaker001:] So that was almost instan instantaneous with the message? [Isles:] Yes er erm... my instructions... are that all persons are accounted for in the premises and er once they've been accounted for er then it was safe for other officers, i.e the C I D or Superintendent to go to that yes... and they would not have been allowed in had I not received instructions that the house was secure and all persons accounted for. [speaker001:] Just briefly... as I asked Mr were you saying harbouring situation, or are you saying hostage situation or are you saying neither? [Isles:] They were... considered, both of them considered, both of them considered... erm but it is my recollection that erm... been the inference that Mr had made the telephone calls himself. That might have been an inference, I don't, it seems, it was there it was it was said by somebody er as a matter of course or whatever and it might well have been that... erm... certainly it would have been mentioned at the briefing that there was er a woman in the house, Mrs possibly... and the likelihood of children, er was possibly also mentioned but there was no definite intelligence as to er... the having any children. [speaker001:] Yes, but you'd been to the flat at about ten thirty in the evening before... was there anything you heard... or seen at the flat to indicate it might be a hostage situation? [Isles:] No. [speaker001:] The only other relates to that visit to the flat.... It wasn't suggested to Mr when he gave evidence that there was another man at the flat that night, I am told that if it had been his answer would have been an unequivocal no. Isn't it possible that you mistook... the two or possibly three voices you heard, for in fact Mr and Mrs and. [Isles:] There is that possibility but as... I was aware. [speaker001:] believed to the T V. [Isles:] No there was def there were definitely er... er voices that were er... there and there, not erm voices from the television. [speaker001:] My Lord I have no re-examination. Does your Lordship have any questions? [Drake:] No. [speaker001:] Well convenient time to take lunch. [Drake:] Yes... members of the jury we will resume at... two o'clock, erm because I have other duties later on this afternoon we'll have to finish at four o'clock today, it may help you to know that, it may help council to know that as well. [speaker001:] My Lord I call... Sergeant. [Drake:] Just erm before you do and so that we can all follow where we're getting to... erm what witnesses are you going to call? Then we know, we shall know how we're getting on. [speaker001:] My Lord yes, er there's just, we're now dealing with the... officers that went into the flat and conducted the operation and then there's one W P C who comes after that to give some evidence but then that's it. [Drake:] I see so we've got the five officers who went into the flat now coming one after the other [speaker001:] My Lord yes. [Drake:] plus the W P C. [speaker001:] My Lord yes, if I could there was a fifth officer that erm had authorised nothing and wasn't. [Drake:] No it's alright I I just thought it helps me and the jury to know what... where we are in the evidence. Good. [speaker001:] Take the book. [John:] Thank you. [speaker001:] I swear by Almighty God. [John:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker001:] That the evidence I shall give. [John:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker001:] Shall be the truth. [John:] Shall be the truth. [speaker001:] The whole truth. [John:] The whole truth. [speaker001:] And nothing but the truth. [John:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker001:] Now could you give your current name, rank and station? [John:] Sure er... it's John currently a police sergeant stationed at. [speaker001:] And in December of nineteen eighty eight, what was your rank in your job? [John:] Er in December nineteen eighty eight er I was a police constable, I was stationed at... I was er a firearms instructor in the operations department and also a tactical advisor. [speaker001:] And when did you... first become a firearms officer? [John:] Er I first commenced training er as a firearms officer in nineteen eighty. [speaker001:] And when did you become a tactical advisor? [John:] In nineteen eighty eight, having er attended all of the national courses. [speaker001:] Now if you, if there's a firearms officer a full time job or are there other... ordinary police duties as well as. [John:] At the time er when I was a firearms instructor er that was... the job that I did every day I went to work either firearms training or firearms operations. [speaker001:] And er... Mr have you ever had to shoot a suspect? [John:] No I haven't, no. [speaker001:] Now were you involved in an operation to enter and search the flat known as in December of eighty eight? [John:] Yes that is correct. [speaker001:] And were your involvement the decision to carry out the search or was your involvement the operational search? [John:] It was the actual operation... that I was involved in. [speaker001:] And when did you first become involved in the operation? [John:] I would have gone to police headquarters that morning around about four A M and er from there onwards to where the briefing was. [speaker001:] Sergeant carried out the briefing. [John:] He did yes, that's correct. [speaker001:] And were you issued with a weapon? [John:] Yes I was. [speaker001:] A and what sort of weapon? [John:] A revolver... Smith and Weston revolver. [speaker001:] Are you familiar with that sort of gun? [John:] Yes I am. [speaker001:] And ordinarily how would you carry that gun about your person? [John:] Prior to and immediately after the operation, the weapon would be holstered... erm and secured by means of a strap across... er the hammer of the weapon. [speaker001:] Is there any way the gun could then go off in that? [John:] No not at all no it's a safety feature. [speaker001:] What was your role to be in this operation? [John:] Technically I was er the team leader of the operation er and therefore in charge of the actual execution. [speaker001:] Have you been a team leader before? [John:] Yes I have yes. [speaker001:] Are there any rules about pointing guns, loaded guns at people? [John:] Yes there are certain... considerations that obviously we take er... we take into effect. [speaker001:] And what are they? [John:] Well... obviously the fact that we er... are carrying a firearm and that firearm is loaded erm has to be borne in mind at all times. Without over dramatising the fact... that firearm, coupled with myself could easily kill somebody so we have to make sure that every single time we draw the weapon er there is a need, there is a justification for it er and as soon as that need and justification stops, so would we put the weapon away. [speaker001:] Do er firearms officers carry any special firearms card? [John:] Yes we do, yes. [speaker001:] Do you have the card with you? [John:] Yes I have.... The card that we're issued with. [speaker001:] Mr we will show the jury in... in just a moment but could you just tell us first of all what the card says, in general terms. [John:] Yes sure, the card itself er is authorisation that is signed by er an officer of at least the rank of Assistant Chief Constable and er it's a firearms authorisation that enables us or as an individual,... to be issued with a firearm that is named on this card, er for that particular type of weapon... er if if we go to a firearms operation. [speaker001:] And is there anything else on the er the rear of the card? [John:] Yes sure, on the rear... er if I could read it out. [speaker001:] Certainly. [John:] [reading] Please read the notes below carefully. The law section three of the criminal law act nineteen sixty seven... reads... a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances... in the prevention of crime... or in effecting or assisting... in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. [] And then it goes on a strict reminder. [reading] A firearm is to be used only as a last resort. Other methods must have been tried and failed, or must because of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried. For example.... A firearm may be used when it is apparent that the police cannot achieve their lawful purpose of preventing loss or further loss of life by any other means. Wherever practicable an oral warning is to be used before a firearm is used. And lastly we to individual responsibility. The responsibility for the use of the firearm is an individual decision, which may have to be justified in legal proceedings. Remember the law and remember your training. [] [speaker001:] Yes and er Mr do... firearms officers carry such a document all the time? [John:] Yes yes we do yes. [speaker001:] Lord I wonder whether the jury could er... look at that or whether it would be more convenient for them to look at it later. [Drake:] They can look at it now... get it out of the way. Er I I'm... not quite sure of the relevance of this. It shows that this officer was authorised to carry a gun and erm that's not in dispute. [speaker001:] My Lord [Drake:] It it it's not the sort of thing when the gas man calls that... the man is... being having a gun pointed at him he says wait a minute can I see your card please. [speaker001:] No my Lord the idea was simply to... show the jury that the police are a reminder. [Drake:] Oh yes, right please. Yes... well there we are. Have have a look at it members of the jury it's part of the... part of the history as it were. [speaker001:] Mr again about guns, what is the... your general policy on and dealing with guns in the presence of children? [John:] Well... we would never point a firearm at a child, erm there would be no cause to, no need to. [speaker001:] And in... your mind... at the time, Mr, what was the object of the operation? [John:] The... the object of the operation really was to... to obviously apprehend er because at that time we believed that he was er a danger to the public and other people. [Drake:] Yes. [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Drake:] Yes... does anyone want to saying anything about the card? [speaker001:] Er yes sir... it does not seem to have a photograph of the officer who it just has his name. I was just wondering... should it not have a photograph? [Drake:] Yes certainly. No certainly no... I... well what about it? [John:] Er yes my Lord, er in conjunction with the card er we have a warrant card which is individually issued to er a respective officer with his name, his rank er and also a photograph. [Drake:] Now that's the one the public can and ought to ask to see. [John:] That that's correct yes. [Drake:] When you knock at the door at night, you make sure a policeman and not something else. [John:] That is correct my Lord yes, I have that [speaker001:] So got a special pass because you're a firearms officer which is essentially deals with your authorisation to have a gun and reminds you of the law. [John:] That is correct. [speaker001:] But also because you're a police officer as well, you've got the usual warrant card. [John:] That that's correct yes. [speaker001:] It carries your photograph. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] And it's the sort of the card the jury may well have seen on television... in dramas. [Drake:] Well er er as I observe the... authorisation card is of general interest to us but it's not the sort of thing you're going to produce to a member of the public. [John:] No it's certainly not my Lord no. [Drake:] It's really a record simply that you have been given the authority. [John:] That is correct my Lord yes. [speaker001:] And it, would it be fair to say... Mr that it is a form of control within the police force? [John:] Of course yes. [Drake:] And when you actually go and... draw the arms do you produce your card then? [John:] Yes I do my Lord yes. [Drake:] Yes I see... well thank you. [John:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Mr in due course did you... go to the flat? [John:] I did indeed yes. [speaker001:] And can you tell... the jury exactly what time did you arrive at the flat? [John:] We would ari have arrived at the block of flats prior to six o'clock but not many minutes prior to and then from there er we made our way up to that floor by the stairs as opposed to the lift. [speaker001:] And... how many officers were to go into the flat? [John:] Six of us in total. [speaker001:] And had you decided in advance where you would go... once you got in? [John:] Yes we had, yes. That was part of the briefing. [speaker001:] And who took that decision? [John:] The decision to... exactly where we were going... and was taken, a joint decision by Sergeant and myself. [speaker001:] A and before we go into what happened once got in the flat, just tell us now who was to go where in the first instance. [John:] The... the officers involved in the actual armed execution o of the... the operation. P C would have been the first man into the flat and he was carrying the shield that has been mentioned earlier. The second person into the flat and immediately very, very close behind to P C was myself... and the third person into the flat would have been... P C. [speaker001:] Was he carrying a shield? [John:] He was carrying a shield as well.... The fourth person would have been P C... The fifth person P C... and the last person forming part of the firearms team er would have been P C. [speaker001:] Er and put us out of our er how many ballistic shields did you take into that flat? [John:] Into the flat itself, two. [speaker001:] Are you sure you didn't take three or four or five? [John:] I have to say that I know for definite that the force at that time only possessed two shields, er we kept one shield in the South of the county at and one shield North of the county and and hence that is why I went to the headquarters in the morning. [speaker001:] And again before we come on to the entry. I'd like to ask you what you were wearing? [John:] Every single officer involved in that operation from an armed point of view, er was wearing a beret... with a silver badge on the front of the black beret. [speaker001:] Would you have, do you have a beret like that. [John:] I do. [speaker001:] Could you please get. [John:] Sure. Right, this is my er the original beret but this is a beret that every single officer would have been wearing on his head... and then... er in relation to the actual uniform that the officer would be wearing er... we wear jumpsuits. They're all identical, all the same and hence... erm that'd be the the kit we were wearing there. [speaker001:] Thank you. [John:] And then lastly, over the top of that jumpsuit er we would wear our ballistic armour... and this is identical to the armour that we would have worn that day. [speaker001:] Erm... my Lo my Lord again, if the jury wish to in due course.... Mr how did you gain entry to the flat? [John:] A er one of the officers er used a door opener which is [speaker001:] Which officer was that? [John:] Er P C... er used the door opener which is a hydraulic system er it's a jack type principal that when activated er forces the frame apart at the side but at the same time... should exert pressure onto the door and then er knock should knock it in very quickly. [speaker001:] And w would that be the talk about the door but once you... had the door off. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Who went into the flat first? [Drake:] Well you say it should open it very quickly, what happened on this occasion? [John:] Er my Lord I'm afraid it didn't. Erm. [speaker001:] Can you tell. [Drake:] It was a good it was a good question in that case. [speaker001:] Yes tell the jury then tell the jury what happened with the... the door opener. [John:] Er yes, the door opener in fact was was put on wrongly... erm by unfortunately P C and er as the pressure started to exert outwards erm it then found that there was no resistance and consequently all the pressure was being put outwards... er and as such then the machine started to to make a noise erm which then we had to switch it off, turn it round, back on again and eventually gained access. [speaker001:] Mr how much time... did you lose by having to switch the machine round? [John:] Whilst at the time, it it seemed an eternity, it was literally seconds, er very, very quickly because we were aware of the noise... that at that time in the morning seemed to be er... echoing everywhere. [Drake:] And do you erm... thought it at least very possible that there was someone with a gun the other side of the door. [John:] That is correct my Lord, definitely. [Drake:] Yes. [speaker001:] Just before I deal with how you get in... just tell the jury what is your a approach in terms of the timing of the events. Once you'd got access, what do you do? [John:] We have to work... as quickly and as safely as we possibly can... and we can't afford to spend five minutes er searching a house, let alone a flat. We have to get in as quickly... and as quietly a we possibly can and then once in... try and secure the place from any possible threat that might be in there. [speaker001:] Let's take it from the point where you have essentially broke the door down. Who went in first? [John:] P C. [speaker001:] He's with the shield. [John:] Yes that's correct yes. [speaker001:] And who followed him? [John:] I did [speaker001:] And what was your position in relation to him? [John:] Er,... immediately at very, very close behind him. To such a degree that I had hold of... P C. [speaker001:] And it, I'm sure the jury would get the it's rather an obvious question but why is that? [John:] That's because hopefully the ballistic shield will give us a certain amount of er bullet proof cover and if I can get as close behind that shield er as I possibly can it it's got to be safer from my point of view and from P C point of view. [speaker001:] Where did P C and you go? [John:] We moved er... straight along the corridor to the rear main bedroom. [Drake:] Now to what extent did you know the layout inside? [John:] My Lord at the briefing that we attended er there was a... sketch plan drawn up on the er the dry wipe board... in the briefing room. Not to the degree of er detail that is on the map, but a rough... idea of what we be encountering. [speaker001:] which room you were aiming for. [John:] Yes definitely yes. [speaker001:] I appreciate Mr it's now five years ago but... how long did it take from... when the door went down to you getting to the main bedroom? [John:] Seconds, two or three seconds. [speaker001:] A and then what... did either you or P C do? [John:] Er, P C opened the... bedroom door... he... I can't recall which way the door opened, whether it... was to the left or to the right, but er P C knocked the door back... erm flat against the wall. [speaker001:] Just pau pause a moment it... why did he do that? [John:] Er it's something that we're trained in to ensure that there is nobody hiding behind the door. If we only opened a door partly er there is room for somebody to hide behind it and then when we go into the room then we would encounter problems. [speaker001:] He slammed the door open. [John:] That is correct. [speaker001:] And... how far did he go into the room at all? [John:] To begin with... there was a pause at the door, but a pause of perhaps... I don't know, one or two seconds at the most. Just to quickly assess that we weren't going forward to... erm a horrible situation where er one of us or somebody else is going to be injured, so there would have been a very, very quick check to see who or what was in the room. [speaker001:] And ha by this time had you or P C said anything? [John:] No, not until the... until we opened the door, gave that quick check and then I saw a figure or figures in the bed. [speaker001:] Er and when you saw the figure or figures... did you say anything then? [John:] Yes I did, yes. [speaker001:] What did you say? [John:] I said armed police, put your hands up. [speaker001:] A and did you say it in the voice you've just used now to me? [John:] No er certainly not er... I shouted my Lord. [speaker001:] Did you shout very loud? [John:] Very loud, yes. [speaker001:] A and again, but why did you shout armed police, was there any particular reason for using those? [John:] Well firstly we need to... it it's part of our training. Every single operation we go on whether we are in uniform or in plain clothes er and we are carrying a firearm, we need to identify ourselves as police officers. Because if we don't we then run the risk of being injured ourselves... erm somebody alleging that they didn't realise they were police officers and therefore... shot at us because they thought we were invading their territory or something. [speaker001:] Did you upset him? [John:] Definitely yes. [speaker001:] Mr is it possible that in fact... the on this occasion you forgot to shout armed police? [John:] No I know that is definitely not the case. [speaker001:] As you shouted armed police where were your hands? [John:] Certainly er... by then... perhaps I forgot to mention as we went through the front door my weapon was already out of the holster and by the time we'd got the bedroom door my weapon would already have been under er my eye level, hence literally aiming the weapon and from there the gun was out, my arm was out, whether I still had hold of P C I I can't recall. [speaker001:] You shouted armed police and was there any... immediate response. [John:] Yes there was yes. [speaker001:] And what was that response? [John:] Er... the, the man in the bed put his hands up.... Er, the woman put her hands up as well and then we started to move away from the door, er across the room er to avoid being stuck as a silhouette in the doorway. [speaker001:] Mr what was the, what was the lighting conditions when you shouted armed police? [John:] There were no lights on... er in the the bedroom itself. Certainly not as bright as here, er... sufficient light for me to be able to see that there were people in there and to differentiate between a man and a woman but... er at that time not enough to to be able to clearly define anybody. [speaker001:] Did you try to switch the light on? [John:] I did yes... yes. [speaker001:] Were you successful? [John:] To begin with... er I couldn't find the light switch because my, my gaze was directed er at the people in the bed but then er I asked the man in the bed, where was the light switch and er he helped me back towards the area where the switch was and we eventually succeeded in getting the light on. [speaker001:] By the time the light was on, where was the man that had been in the bed? [John:] He was still in the bed with his hands up. [speaker001:] When you got the light on what did you do or say? [John:] The exact words, er I can't recall but er I talked the man out of the bed, still with his hands up... and he took a few steps away from the bed. [speaker001:] Pause there.... Did the man have... any pyjamas on? [John:] No he didn't no. [speaker001:] Did he have anything on? [John:] No he didn't. [speaker001:] As you your way talked him out of the bed, did he talk to you? [John:] He did, but exactly what was said I I can't recall I... I was just concerned at that time to... er to get the man safely down onto the floor and secure him. [speaker001:] W w were you concerned to secure the lady in the bed? [John:] No. [speaker001:] So he got away from the bed, he had his hands up. What did you say to him then, you were talking him down? [John:] Yes, er he took a couple of steps away from the bed, er then I told him to lower himself down onto his knees and then eventually lower himself down onto his chest, down onto his front. [speaker001:] Pause there a minute.... At that stage in the operation.... In addition to yourself, how many other officers were in the room? [John:] Just myself and P C. [speaker001:] Had the others still not not come into the room? [John:] No. [speaker001:] Are you about that? [John:] Absolutely no doubt, that that wasn't part of the plan. It didn't happen because there was no need for anybody to come into the room. [speaker001:] What did you then do? [John:] Er, once the, the man was down on the floor... er he placed his hands into the small of his back. I told him that I was going to come forward er and handcuff him... and then, then something along the lines of er not to move... er and then once he was down on the floor, erm I holstered the weapon into my own holster. Can I just say that's something that we don't normally do. We would normally prefer to put er the individuals officers firearms ho?id [speaker001:] You don't want him to grab your gun? [John:] No... but on this occasion we didn't have a spare holster to put the weapon into. [speaker001:] You'd better explain why that is. [John:] That was because P C firearm, his revolver was still in the holster because he was carrying the shield... and it was only as er... I started to move forward that P C... er came up to the... the doorway to cover me whilst I went forward. [speaker001:] Did you call P C? [John:] Yes, yes I did. [speaker001:] He came to cover you and what weapon was he carrying? [John:] Er, he was carrying a shotgun and his revolver was... in the holster, hence there there was no spare holster. [speaker001:] You holstered your gun and then what did you do? [John:] I then went forward to the man on the floor er, handcuffed him and stepped back. [speaker001:] Did he say anything to you as you went up to him? [John:] He did but once again I I can't recall exactly what was said. [speaker001:] Did you say anything to him? [John:] Er yes, erm... I told him to calm down because he was quite excitable and... to just stay there and somebody would explain what it was all about. [speaker001:] Did you arrest? [John:] I did yes. [speaker001:] Did you tell him you were arresting him? [John:] Yes I did, yes. [speaker001:] When did you arrest him? [John:] In the meantime, as I recall, er... I... I asked him who he was and I asked his wife who he was because he had asked what we were doing in his house... and when he said his house, I thought then for the first time that perhaps this wasn't who er... we had on the floor. But... I have to say that at that time I still didn't know, I had a good idea,... that it wasn't the man we were looking for but therefore he was still arrested and he was arrested on sus well for harbouring an escapee. [speaker001:] I i if you can remember, can you tell us the words you used throughout the or the gist of the words? [John:] The gist of the words were, you're under arrest for harbouring an escapee... and he replied along the lines of you've gotta be joking mate. [speaker001:] Was he still naked? [John:] Yes... whether he was naked at the time of the arrest or... or just er, what, what I'm getting at is er that I put some trousers on Mr. [speaker001:] Was that after you took the handcuffs on or before? [John:] Yes after the handcuffs were put on, yes. [speaker001:] And again why did you put trousers on him? [John:] Well,... Mr er er Mr er wife was in the room, there was a child in the room, erm... which at the time I didn't even realise there were two children but... er there was one child in the room and er really for decency more than anything. There seemed little point in... er a wife and a child sitting looking at their... husbandfather er with no clothes on. I mean it's. [speaker001:] Did you have to assist to get his trouser on? [John:] Yes, that's right yes.... He still stayed on the floor, he was still handcuffed. But er we found a pair of jeans... er and having made sure that the jeans were empty of anything, er we sort of shuffled himself into the jeans a he lay down and we pulled, I I pulled the jeans up. [speaker001:] By the time you had arrested him or... put his trousers on. How many people were in the room? [John:] There would still have been er P C with the shield and P C with the shotgun. [speaker001:] Giving you cover? [John:] That's right yes. [speaker001:] Did you... point the gun or shove a gun... into the back of Mr head? [John:] No, definitely no. [speaker001:] W why are you so certain? [John:] Because the only time I approached the the man was when my... revolver was the holster... and the holster was done up. [speaker001:] As a matter of police practice, firearms practice... what would you say about a police officer who stuck the gun at any at the back of someone's neck? [John:] Well... it's against all training that we receive, there is no need for it... it is just something that we would not do. Not only because of the risk and the safety factor er of the gun going off, because of er a movement by that person on the floor, but so there's no getting around it that, should a firearm be discharged against a solid object in as much as er the barrel is right up against an individual, and the trigger is pulled. There's a very, very good chance that the person using a firearm will, will suffer injury because the barrel could well explode. So that's something that we... we're all aware of. [speaker001:] Did you see P C... shove a gun into the back of Mr head? [John:] No I did not, no. [speaker001:] Did you see P C do that? [John:] No certainly not. [speaker001:] After you had arrested him and got his trousers on... what did you do? [John:] I then... had a responsibility as the team leader... to ensure that the rest of the house was secure... and that none of the other units were having any problems. I hadn't heard any shouting so therefore I didn't believe that anybody else was having any problems. [speaker001:] Did you go anywhere? [John:] I started to walk a way out of the main bedroom and I heard P C... say words to the effect of get down... and I turned round to see what was going on and the man was... trying to roll over to get up... or that's what I thought, erm not kicking or or fighting or anything but just... to me it looked as though he was going to get up and I went back and with my hands just pushed down onto him and said stay there, it will all be explained er and then... walked away. [speaker001:] Did you then leave that room? [John:] Sorry. [speaker001:] Did you leave the room? [John:] I did indeed yes. [speaker001:] And who did you leave in the room? which officers did you leave in? [John:] Er P C and P C. [speaker001:] And where did you go? [John:] Er, I then went back... er back down the passageway... er into the lounge, checked the kitchen... checked that the rest of the firearms officers were... were okay. [Drake:] Now when you went in... you were carrying out a plan with you very close behind going down to the bedroom. [John:] Yes my Lord yes. [Drake:] Er, what was the plan about the others... for all you knew who you believed was there, might have been somewhere else in the flat. [John:] Yes my Lord er... as soon as we went to the main bedroom which was the back bedroom... at the same time as as that bedroom door opened, so the second team consisting of er... P C P C would have gone into the second smaller bedroom and at the same time as we went in... er P C and P C job er was to cover our backs in case of anybody in er the kitchen or the living area, the living room area. [speaker001:] And after leaving the main bedroom did you... learn that the rest of the flat was secured? [John:] Yes I did, yes. [speaker001:] By secure what do you mean? [John:] I mean that er... all... possibly threats had been secured by use of handcuffs... and that there was no likelihood of anybody hiding er in the premises or certainly nobody in the premises with a firearm. [speaker001:] And when you arrived at that conclusion, what did you do? [John:] I then got straight onto the radio to Sergeant and Superintendent and informed them that the flat was secure... er one person... er arrested er and requested C I D and... their presence. [speaker001:] Now again I but give us as to the length of time that elapsed between... flying the door door breaker and you radioing? [John:] Very few minutes, perhaps three or four minutes at the absolute outside. [speaker001:] Was there anything about the way that you carried out the operation in the flat that caused you... dissatisfaction? [John:] It was a shame about the er the door opener not working correctly... subsequently er... I discovered the incident with the the other team going into the other bedroom and er a young girl being... in the bed that was missed and erm. [speaker001:] Just pause there what do think about that... girl being tipped out of the bed? [John:] Well, it was something that shouldn't have happened and it's very regrettable, without a doubt, very regrettable. [speaker001:] Mr wait there there'll be some more questions. [John:] Of course. [speaker001:] Getting back to the briefing if you would Sergeant. There's a plan, rough plan of the flat. [John:] That's correct. [speaker001:] And at that briefing who were you given to understand in the flat? [John:] I was given to believe that would have been in the flat... also we thought that st was going to be in there... possibly a wife and it wasn't said whether there were any children. We didn't know whether there were going to be any children. [speaker001:] When you say a wife, you mean Mrs there wasn't any suggestion that Lawrence had taken his own wife? [John:] No, no not at all. [speaker001:] You had a plan of the flat. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Looking at it... there's one master bedroom. [John:] That's correct yes. [speaker001:] Who did you expect to be in the master bedroom of the three? [John:] There was mention made that we thought, or somebody thought, was in that bedroom. [speaker001:] Now what, pray, were the grounds for that. [John:] I have to say I have no idea. [speaker001:] Because you see all that we've heard is that gentlemen just before Mr he listened at the door before but of course the front door is nowhere near the master bedroom. They couldn't have come from that.... But the best you can say that the jury there was some information that be in the master bedroom... you don't know where. [John:] I'm sorry I don't. [speaker001:] I have to put it this way but there aren't any alternative. Was there any by chance, any information that Mr wasn't only sharing his flat with Mr but was also sharing his wife with Mr? [John:] I hadn't heard that, no. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] Okay, yeah right. [speaker001:] So you can see what you go into the master bedroom there's a man and a woman in bed, isn't it obvious in a second that it's not that it's Mr and Mrs? [John:] At that time no, no I'm afraid not.

[speaker001:] The component parts of the multiplier have been agreed as four years for the period up to the age of nineteen when he leaves school and thirteen years thereafter... Mrs doctor and Mr Paul's headmaster agree that Paul needs an enabler at school during... school hours, that is classroom hours, an enabler is in effect a classroom assistant who works with him on a one to one basis to ensure that he can participate in lessons.... It is right to say that I have heard from Mrs Paul's classroom assistant during the last academic year, she appears virtually to have acted as an enabler, but she was by no means dedicated to Paul as a one to one enabler and of course the extent of the attention of which she had to give to Paul detracted from her ability to give attention to other pupils. Mr the headmaster has recently applied to Paul's present local authority London Borough of Merton for a classroom assistant for Paul for thirty hours per week... he does not know whether he will get that or a lesser number of hours or none at all, he was repeatedly, in my view quite rightly, extremely reluctant to express any view about what the outcome of his application maybe, but, rather force time is to which we have to guess, his guess was that ten hours might be afforded but he was at pains to emphasize that that was pure guess work. He was however er reasonably clear as to the speed at which local authorities tend to deal with these matters, he said that it always takes a long time and getting any answer out of the local authority might well take somewhere between six months and up to two years, he thought that perhaps eighteen months was a reasonable guess before he would actually manage to get somebody... if Paul were to move as er, it maybe well occur to here or a different local authority then of course the application would just go back to square one and that would lead to more delay. Mrs proposes that there should be such a classroom assistant or an enabler for twenty hours per week... that would almost cover the full classroom week of twenty five hours. Mr for the defendant effectively accepts that, but says that having regard to Mr er undoubted success in regard to provision of one to one assistance in relation to other children, some of whom are less disabled than Paul, that I should try and look to local authority will provide thirty hours assistance or thereabouts after say eighteen months and that therefore in this regard the defendant should pay for only one and a half years of er enabler's time. I think that that is over optimistic, I cannot be confident that there will be any local authority provision at all, it seems to me that this particular provision is really vital to Paul's education and I think it right to ensure that it is available. In addition to classroom support Mrs says that Paul needs general support for three hours per evening in relation to his er social well being in his leisure activities... three hours per evening for the four evenings a week which he spends at school, in relation to this I think it right to bear in mind Mr evidence about the school, being a special school of course has generous staffing levels, staffing levels which would make the mouth of any head teacher of any other school water I suspect.... There are ninety nine pupils, the total staff is one hundred, of course that does not for a moment mean that er, there is one member of staff attendant on each pupil at all times, and I don't for a moment suggest that. Of the ninety nine pupils, seventy five are boarders, the suffer varying degrees, degrees of disability, something like nine or ten of them are roughly in Paul's category of disablement, although he is the most severely disabled. There are nineteen full-time care staff of whom eleven are on duty in the evenings and Mr has asked for a further eleven full-time care staff, he hopes in due course to be able to have seventeen such staff on duty at any one time. In these circumstances in my judgment there is entirely adequate support for Paul of the sort that Mrs envisaged and indeed I am inclined to the view that one to one dedicated support for him out of classroom hours may not be desirable and might well tend at least to come between him and his fellow pupils... so if one turns to Mrs schedule one on page forty seven, papers before me, I think that the appropriate arithmetic is to provide for twenty hours per week at seven pounds per hour for thirty seven school weeks, that is an enabler for the school period, I confess that I find it much easier to deal with Mrs [clears throat] schedules on page forty seven by treating schedule one as having to do with the, the... school period, schedule two having to deal with the home periods and schedule three with parental care, as it is actually set out on page forty seven, and I confess that during the case I kept confusing [LAUGHTER] myself [] about this point, schedule one deals not only with school but also, rather confusingly, with an enabler at home and I think it easier to confine that schedule to er school time. The result of the calculation that er I think appropriate is that one finds... [clears throat] twenty hours a week, seven pounds an hour, thirty seven weeks a year comes out I hope at five thousand, one hundred and eighty pounds, to that should be added four hundred and forty five pounds national insurance contributions and I have left the advertising fees at the same amount two hundred pounds. That means five thousand eight hundred and twenty five pounds which one multiplies by four, giving a total under that schedule of twenty three thousand, three hundred pounds, I regret to say that it is of course inherent in the judgment that I have to deliver that there is a good deal of what [cough] [speaker002:] I might call rather boring arithmetic, I'm sorry about that, but it is unavoidable. Going on to er schedule two, and first of all the weekends, it is not common ground that care of twenty four, four, twenty four hours should be provided, that gives a weekly figure, a yearly figure for er [clears throat] of seven thousand, one hundred and four pounds, multiplying that by four one gets twenty eight thousand, four hundred and sixteen pounds. In the same schedule I accept Mrs suggestions for the school holidays and the rates that she gives so that one has seven thousand, eight hundred and fifty two pounds fifty times four which equals thirty one thousand, four hundred and ten pounds. I do not however accept that in addition to the hours of care which she provides at home during the school holidays that there should also be an enabler for twenty hours per week as... she suggests... that would mean that the number of hours of care, and I appreciate of course, that there is some artificiality in dealing with this in pure terms of numbers of hours of care, but nevertheless it provides a sort of common denominator, which can give some indication, that would mean no less than ninety hours of boarding and care per week... fifty during the week erm [clears throat] and twenty during the weekend and a further twenty for the enabler, I think that that er is [clears throat] too great and I make no allowance for an enabler at home. Next in schedule three there is provision to compensate Mr and Mrs for the extra work involved in caring for Paul, it is agreed that er since they are in the special position of course of being Paul's carers they are, not er, I mean no disrespect to nursing but they're not erm [clears throat] it is agreed that there should a deduction of twenty five percent, that would give an annual figure of two thousand, six hundred and thirty one times four will amount to ten thousand five hundred and twenty four pounds, adding these figures together, future care during schooling comes if my addition has been accurate to ninety three thousand, six hundred and fifty pounds in total. Turning to care for Paul after the age of nineteen... the approach of Mrs is very much at variance with the approach of Mrs, both agree that Paul will require a resident carer present, twenty four hours a day. Mrs thinks that that is best provided by two carers living in the house, each on duty for half the week, such carers being directly employed by the, by contrast Mrs says that an agency should provide a carer all the time from its available pool, she envisages that in practice three or four carers would share the work, they differ over the full number of hours care to be provided by hired carers, Mrs envisages seventeen hours a day in total, Mrs ten hours, again I emphasize that the artificiality of the working in precise number of hours, where you have somebody actually living in the house all the time and available to er carry out active care at any time, but of course carers... are not always having to do things which might be described as active care. The advantages and disadvantages of each proposal have been canvassed helpfully by Counsel, I have to say that I prefer the approach of Mrs, she had in my view more experience and more relevant experience than Mrs was able to bring to bear. Her scheme of things in my judgment is likely to offer better continuity of care and thus more rapport between Paul and his carers and a better opportunity for one carer to hand on the necessary skills with Paul's equipment to any successor. These advantages appear to me to outweigh the disadvantages identified by Mr of there being more outsiders in the family household, possibly homesick and unhappy carers who are not living in their own homes, but at the establishment and the trouble and worry to the of what would be not infrequent, recruitment of new carers for Mrs, I hope perhaps a trifle pessimistically thought that on average carers would not spend more than about a year of course, some longer, some shorter, because such carers necessarily had to be fairly young, fit, strong people and the stresses and strains of the er the whole business she thought would lead to reasonably rapid turnover, not the emergence of long-term carers who might stay for a number of years, er, as I say I'd rather hoped that she may be unduly pessimistic about that, but, that, I accept what she says about it. I think that agency care by its nature is likely to be more impersonal, is likely to involve a greater turnover of staff and would be considerably less satisfactory for Paul. I also think that Mrs somewhat underestimated the formal hours required, I have noted from the er, the B M A documents setting out the charges to be expected to be levied by agencies in relation to nurses that extra hours will be charged per hour and I can foresee that if an agency contracts to provide ten hours... formal care that er, it might be that with a number of carers they would find themselves very, very frequently putting in for extra hours of care. For those reasons as I, have I, hoped made plain, it seems to me that the general scheme provided by Mrs is the one that ought to be adopted, however in my view when Mrs also makes provision for a second carer for some three hours a day that is well over egging the pudding, if I may adopt a phrase used by Mr at one stage during the case [clears throat], I feel sure that in practice the two resident carers would not simply say well I'm on duty from eight am on Monday till twelve midday on Thursday and I shall do nothing during the rest of the week, I think that living in the household for, at [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] least periods of months and hopefully, well rather more than that, they would work things out in a way in which they in fact helped each other very considerably. In addition Mrs scheme at page forty three provides for a further twenty eight hours a week to be provided in some other way, that it is suggested is parental care, but it seems to me that it would either be parental care or hired care. That I think recognizes a possibility, by no means a probability, but a possibility that Paul might move away from home and the more real possibility that in due course that Mr and Mrs might be unable to bear their part further as carers. To allow for those contingencies I think it right to allow the commercial rate for the twenty eight hours per week... in inverted commas, parental care, rather than a discounted rate. Accordingly this is schedules on page forty three, they overlap in numbers for their schedules three and four, erm [clears throat] come out... at er the first of schedule three, thirty five thousand, six hundred and eighty six pounds seventeen per annum times thirteen and seven thousand, two hundred and eighty pounds per annum times thirteen... as I er [clears throat] hope is correct arithmetically, but I invite correction in due course, adding all the figures for future care together, one gets to a figure of six hundred and fifty two thousand pounds, two, sorry, sixty hundred and fifty two, two, one zero, from that an agreed sum of thirty nine thousand, six hundred and ninety one pounds for disability living allowance, Paul's to be deducted leaving six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and nineteen pounds. That finding effectively determines the agreed figures on which damages relating to the provision of suitable accommodation in turn, it is agreed that if two carers are to live in the household, that suitable new accommodation for the plaintiff can be acquired for two hundred and seventeen thousand, five hundred pounds, the house in which he at present lives will fe fetch eighty two thousand, five hundred pounds, a difference of a hundred and thirty five thousand pounds. It is further agreed that the approach adopted by the court of appeal in the case of and incorporate of nineteen eighty nine, one queens bench page eight hundred and seventy eight, is that which I should adopt, er the person which seeks to persuade me that the percentage which I should apply should be four point five percent rather than the two percent used in that case by the court of appeal, he argues... partly on the basis of er, evidence by Mr an architect who er, with the greatest respect to him, whilst I feel quite sure his architectural abilities are of the highest quality, I feel that as an economist he is perhaps er not more reliable than any other economist, er [clears throat] but er, Mr argues that er, recent falls in house prices show that houses are not the risk free inflation proof investments which the court of appeal assumed when and was decided.... It seems to me when deciding that case, the court of appeal were as Mr suggests taking a long-term view, I of course bear in mind the well known aphorism of Lord about er what happens in the long term, but er, [clears throat]... my own view is, that in fact, a house should not actually be built as an investment at all it is something to live in, to make a home in, it is not something to make money out of, I very much regret the fact that er over recent years that view seems to have become somewhat old fashioned. In so far as the house does represent a large capital asset, and it undoubtedly does, I am quite clear that in the long term, house prices are likely, generally to rise with inflation, indeed I would think must do so or perhaps to rise rather more quickly than inflation if there is a rising population and as there has been for very, very ma many years have passed, [clears throat] that, in the passed a decreasing occupancy rate. I suspect that the proposition that broadly the price of housing will rise at least as fast as inflation could only be falsified if some pestilence almost on the scale of the black death were to occur so that... supply vastly exceeded demand or significantly exceeded demand. I think that whether as er Mr submits and is a guideline case and to be adapted to changing conditions or whether it is a case which lays down a bounding rate, that it is a case which I should follow and that the reasoning leading to the adoption of two percent as the appropriate percentage to be applied still applies today, thus the calculation is one hundred and thirty five thousand pounds times two percent, is two thousand, seven hundred pounds times seventeen, is forty five thousand, nine hundred pounds, to this there is to be added a cost of conversion, thirty two thousand, four hundred and seventy two pounds less the enhancement in value thereby created of twelve thousand, five hundred pounds that is a figure of nineteen thousand, nine hundred and seventy two. Further figures have been agreed, three thousand pounds, eight hundred and fifty po fifty five pounds and fourteen hundred and twenty five pounds for additional costs of moving, maintenance and insurance respectively. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] I am not persuaded that any further calculation relating to enhancement of value such as that adopted by Mr in case is required. The figures which I have given, I hope, add up to a total for new accommodation of seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds. There remain three further issues, one relates to the cost of conversion of future transport. It is agreed that an appropriate vehicle for the transport of the plaintiff in the future is a vehicle called a Nissan Serena, the plaintiff... claims for a cost of conversion of such a vehicle at six thousand, two hundred pounds, it would need to be renewed of course from time to time and allowances made for that, the defendant says that a firm called can convert the same vehicle for less than the tenth of the price, six hundred pounds, Mr says that such advantages, if any, of the conversion for which the plaintiff claims are so minimal that it cannot possibly be right to spend ten times the money on achieving them. That argument would I think be very persuasive if I were able to be confident that the levels of conversion is one which would be... an adequate and proper one, it is relatively new, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not apparently been a conversion which has been put into practice, except in the last year because have only started conversion when the Nissan Serena was brought out. Not very many sub-conversions have yet been done as I understand it and my source of information about the levels of conversion is solely from Mrs, called on behalf of the defendants and her real source of information is simply one family whom she has... talked to on the telephone about it, who find the levels conversion of their Nissan Serena perfectly satisfactory for their twenty year old daughter. I do not think that that evidence second and third hand as it is, is really enough for me to be confident that the conversion will answer. I think it right to bear in mind the evidence of Mr a solicitor now specializing in re-habilitation work who is himself alas wheelchair bound, erm, he has directly relevant experience and he expressed the view that er two ramps leading up to the vehicle from the rear could be unsafe and were in his view generally less satisfactory than the platform with which the conversion equips the Nissan Serena, in those circumstances it seems to me I really have no choice but to er adopt the alternative of the conversion and er there is an agreed figure of thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds in relation to that. The next matter is this, that it is known that unfortunately the plaintiff will require an operation in due course to correct a... I'm not sure whether deformity is quite the right word, mm, mm but it is close enough of the foot. That operation as I understand it is certainly either available on the National Health or er likely to be available on the national health... I have not understood that it is the sort of operation which will for any reason suddenly need to be done and I bear in mind that the plaintiff has had already an operation on his hip done on the National Health, it seems to me on the probabilities that there is a very strong probability that that operation will be done on the National Health and not done privately and for that reason it does not seem to me right to include any sum in relation to that in the damages. There are of course the court of protection costs which are to be calculated and are not a source of disagreement. The last matter relates to some possible supposed uncertainty about the plaintiff's further education at school, as I have already noted it is expected that the plaintiff will remain at school until he is nineteen, he has been there now for three years. It is clear to me from Mr evidence that er he regards school as entirely appropriate for the plaintiff. Mr and Mrs are as I understand it entirely satisfied with that school. The only fear is that the local authority who would retain responsibility for Paul's schooling, after normal school leaving age, if he remains a child with a statement of special educational needs, might possibly say that they would no longer pay for him being at school. I think it is absolutely plain that there is no possibility, that any local authority wherever Paul were living would find it possible to... that he should cease to be a statement in child, it is quite clear, I think, that he is bound to remain a child with a statement of special educational needs, in those circumstances any local authority would have the statutory duty to provide for his education, either at or somewhere else and in practice it seems to me there is no reasonable possibility of his being moved from after he has spent, will it be probably more than four years there perhaps five years there, that I think is not a possibility which has to be catered for. In those circumstances it does not seem to me right to leave open, whether the court has power to do so I'm doubtful, but in any event it does not seem to me right to leave open a question of whether there should be some damages... to provide for the possibility that er... Paul may have to leave school, nor do I think that it is a situation in which any contingency award should be made in respect of that. To summarize the total award is thus made up in this way... there are agreed items as shown on the er schedule of the plaintiff's submissions which come to three hundred and fifty two thousand, five hundred and ninety six pounds, [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] I hope that figure is right... er, I have to confess that I have not added it up and er the copy that I have, the five and the nine could be mistaken for other figures, but I hope that [LAUGHTER] there the right figures []... to that must be added first the general damages... a calculation which like all by other calculations need to be carefully checked, I would... er calculate the interest on general damages to date would be five thousand, two hundred and seven pounds... future care totals six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and seventeen pounds... suitable accommodation, seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds, transport costs thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds, that makes a total of one million, two hundred and six thousand, three hundred and thirty eight pounds... that is the amount which I would be minding to award, I understand that the parties in the light of that would wish to have further discussions about the matter... [speaker003:] For the total I counted two pounds different from his Lordship, I [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] erm [speaker002:] I came to two pounds difference about something [speaker003:] yes, the future care [speaker002:] erm, I think it's in the future care, I rather think that perhaps the future care ought to have been five hundred and nineteen, not five hundred and seventeen [speaker003:] that's why I come to two pounds separate er [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] er six thousand one, one, nine [speaker002:] you're, you're absolutely right, I'm afraid in, in erm... I, I,re remember seeing that discrepancy and I'm not quite sure why it didn't get into my notes [speaker003:] your Lordship's findings were to the age of nineteen a total of nine, three, six, five, O. From the age of nineteen, six, five, two, two, one, O and from the sum of those two figures [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] you deducted three, nine, six, nine, one, and so whatever it is should end in nine at least [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] because it's one taken away from [speaker002:] yes yes I think it should be six, twelve, five, one, nine [speaker003:] yes, so we altered it? [speaker002:] yeah, you're absolutely right, obviously so sorry [speaker003:] so one, two O [speaker002:] although that is the only error I've made in these figures I, not [LAUGHTER] myself [] [speaker003:] I haven't done precise cal computation of interest, but, erm the rough one indicate that it is something in the region of five thousand, two hundred... but I quite agree with his Lordship's figure of five, two, O, seven, total one is one, two, one, six, three, four, O [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] my lord various er matters arise under that, we would ask er at this stage erm [cough] not for a judgement, two reasons, but for an adjournment, the first reason is the court of protection costs will have to be calculated [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] and the second reason is that we wish, we wish to take professional advice from experienced accountants on the merits or demerits of the structured settlement [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] to which one might add this additional gloss, erm recently there have been under a statutory instrument which regulates er, the ca computation of court of protection costs in the event of the structure in a way differently from the traditional one and the defendants would wish to argue [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] er that if the structure is to be offered, accepted and approved then court of protection costs should be lower than it would be, if the lump sum order was eventually made [speaker002:] I see [speaker003:] and one, my, letting myself [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] to say that in fairness to them, so what we would respectfully submit is that your Lordship [cough] having assessed the damages and erm, together with interest other than court of protection costs that the figure which we had mentioned and, and adjourn the matter for consideration of a structured settlement erm and that's the first figure erm, that, the, the second thing, is that there is money in court er we would ask for a direction of the balance of the money, the balance over and above the money in court which is an extra three hundred and six thousand, three hundred and forty pounds at the present stage be brought into court within a reasonable time which we would note is fourteen days, maybe the defendant would ask longer, we haven't discussed it.... It's, it's four fourteen days [speaker002:] yes certainly [speaker003:] the first thing that we, we, we would respect is and suggest and this is a course which has been offered erm, erm, in order of other cases, er, we... should ask that the er [clears throat] because of the adjournment necessary for investigation, the, the money will attract interest and we would ask for an order that the erm, the plaintiff is entitled to interest at the special account rate on any lump sum hereafter ordered to be paid, now what that means is that if at the end of the day the instruction say goes off and the conventional lump sum order is made, we are entitled to interest on the whole of that lump sum, if on the other hand a structured settlement is put into position and er part is either applied to the purchase of the annuities, in the commercial way to try and settle it or taken it back by the health authority, in consideration for self funding structured settlement, then we would only get the interest on the actual cash we have been kept [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] a simple example if the contingency sum was to be six hundred thousand pounds, the balance were go to the structure, er we would have the er interest on the six hundred thousand pounds contingency sum only er [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] the purpose of this double arrangement is to try and arrange something of advantage to both parties erm [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] and we, we would ask of that, but the next point and erm, is this my Lord erm... at the moment erm the negotiations are erm proceeding in relation to the house, about which we have heard evidence, er, we could not properly buy it until it had been investigated by the court of protection and there was approval of that, and er it will be necessary for er consideration to be given as to how it should be purchased, in practical terms, firstly your Lordship has erm [clears throat] awarded a figure of seventy one thousand pounds, then there is the eighty thousand pounds on the existing house which takes one up to a hundred and fifty or thereabouts, and one sees that the special damages and interest thereon comes to something over fifty two thousand pounds to which these er parents will be entitled in the normal way, and if they were to apply, they might do and apply, that would go a long way to purchasing it and the court of protection, if it approved that might take the view that it would be fair to take something out of the notional aspect of damages for loss of earnings, because after all the plaintiff would have spent his earnings for housing and so on in the future, that, that is the sort of problems that now have to be tackled er what, what we would respect and suggest is er simply that there is liberty to apply erm. The sort of applications which we... might wish to make in the future would... be for an example that an interim payment be made out of the money in court or that the money be transferred to the public trust office, we don't know how we should proceed yet, but if we are at liberty to apply generally [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] simply to put the matter into effect, and cover it, that apply to erm [clears throat] [speaker002:] er, er how would... one would at liberty to apply in relation to monies required for purchase of new accommodation [speaker003:] my Lord is, I would respect that they are at liberty to apply generally [speaker002:] generally oh well [speaker003:] well cos what [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] we, we can then come back to the court, erm as, as other orders which we would seek and we would seek an order for costs, erm clearly [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] after today [speaker002:] [clears throat] [speaker003:] and erm er, we, and that there are various other erm we ways in which the parties should be protected, erm, which I haven't had a chance to look at today... clearly the costs of investigating, the proper costs of investigating any structured settlement would have to be dealt with on a later occasion, that it is somehow awarded, instead of protected that the plaintiff gives the defendant notice, seven day's notice before instructing any account on to advise on the structured settlement, so if the defendant thinks the plaintiff is being wholly unreasonable they can come back to court, quite at liberty to apply and get, make his point of the directions on the therefore within these context these are the sort of orders which, on the behalf of the plaintiff I can see and I would respectively suggest that we go away, draw them up and hand them in toy our Lordship and come back later in the day if we have difficult [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] er difficulty in agreeing how so [speaker002:] well no, erm, Mr [cough] [speaker004:] Your learned friend very fairly set the sort of orders one would expect in the case of this sort, erm, can I only add one thing which erm there is still a, failing erm his right there should have been an adjournment this morning that the question of a structured settlement could be investigated, all these people who have indeed, it must be from the plaintiff's point of view as well, desirable that those investigations be erm carried out, with the greatest, greatest speed possible, obviously it takes time to er instruct the and so on and erm, it seemed er to me that it would be appropriate to include some of the I happen to discuss with my friend, erm providing for the matter to be brought back not later than a certain time [speaker002:] well if, [clears throat] if both parties have liberty to apply... that would really cover that wouldn't it?, I mean if, if... you felt that... if there were any, it's unlikely I think but you felt that there were any dragging of the feet in relation to the structured settlement you could come back and ask the court to make orders limiting time for further discussions or... whatever you thought appropriate [speaker004:] well certainly one could do that, but it, it, it would preferably if my suspicions if er imposing perhaps not the right word, er define er at the outset we erm the time limits that er are envisaged for the obtaining of magistrate licence or than that I'm [speaker002:] I'm rather reluctant to do that because I have absolutely no basis for knowing how long negotiations of this sort are likely to take, erm [clears throat] and if I say well... er that such negotiations must be completed by [speaker004:] oh no [speaker002:] an arbitrary date I mean [speaker004:] I'm not saying that negotiations should be completed by a certain date, but that the matter should come back to court by a certain date so that there is therefore er er is a time, an incentive for the [speaker002:] well what sort of time are you suggesting? [speaker004:] well I haven't discussed this with my learned friend, but it seems to me a date sometime next term would be appropriate, er which would give another term, or so for the plaintiff side to investigate these matters [speaker003:] oh the timetable which I as well will, will erm, would be about two months, the first [clears throat] step has to be taken by the defendant because we don't know yet whether they are prepared to oppose the structure, and if so, what sort of structure they would be prepared to oppose, erm, if and when, er a formal offer of structure came through, I would have little doubt that we could instruct accountants and get a response within a matter of weeks, sometimes one has to if they're doing an commercial structure within a week or so because the offer is only open for ten days [speaker002:] yeah [clears throat] [speaker004:] erm the the order which one, one I concern, maybe we can discuss if to, if, if the defendants were prepared to undertake to erm provide any as to instruct within twenty eight days from today, the matter should be list on and this convention on a Friday, Friday in about two or two and a half month's time from now, which will take us in the next term, I, I beg a suggestion [speaker002:] I, er are you both in effect asking me to adjourn to a date which in a moment will agree on [speaker004:] yes [speaker002:] but that be the way [speaker003:] my Lord I think so yes, erm if I can just say this I understand on the structures that a letter has been, er, an offer has been made by a letter erm of the structure and obviously there would be and that, that was done I think some time ago, erm and it might be my Lord how to what sort of structure is, but, but, erm I think from our side, erm we, we've taken the first step and we're going to [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] and, and therefore all potentially I think we'll be very much in the plaintiff's court, although [speaker002:] should we, should we look at say the first Friday after the middle of January, something of that sort, I, I haven't got a calendar on my desk at the moment I'm afraid, but erm [speaker003:] my Lord if we draft an order for your approval we can do the dates [speaker002:] yes alright [speaker003:] the only thing I will say [speaker002:] certainly we let erm [speaker003:] is that we can't move until we know what sort of structure is being offered, the general offer of structure is to take advice because we, we could then but unless we know what is forthcoming we don't [speaker002:] yes well it would be very helpful if you'd like to draft an order, erm as I understand it Mr there's nothing which Mrs has asked for which you er contend I should er [speaker003:] no my Lord [speaker002:] er I, I should refuse him [speaker003:] no, certainly not and er I await for liberty to apply for further to to fall out over anything [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] then, then er, then, then, then we can come back [speaker002:] yes, very well, thank you very much, well... I better advised that all these take with me, thank you both very much for the...

[speaker001:] Court rise... [speaker002:] I'm sorry for the five minute delay most of you, I had to seek out about a administrative matter, an administrative matter, nothing to do with the evidence or the place for... Mr you had told us earlier in the week about several situations, as the management company. In nineteen eighty seven and into nineteen eighty eight was there any other management company apart from dealing with projects? [speaker003:] No there wasn't [speaker002:] and at that time I think owned developments and also [speaker003:] that's correct [speaker002:] were some of the directors of P L C also directors of developments? [speaker003:] they were indeed [speaker002:] and also of [speaker003:] yes [speaker002:] yes, would you wait there please... [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] I've heard of tactics Mr but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but it's a bit hard to stay awake well of course it is I mean er, it's er, it's essential really, it, keeps you [speaker003:] Mr have I got it right that you... er do all the estimates for the management the budgets? [speaker004:] Yes that's correct [speaker003:] that correct... what sort of time scale was it?, er, a, a block of er flats or apartments er that are going to be built on the site er, when were the estimates made?, or when were they made in nineteen eighty seven? [speaker004:] they're usually made between six and eight months before the first person would move in... [speaker003:] so what stage of er building would be reached when the estimates are made? [speaker004:] er the building er effectively would have only just commenced at that stage [speaker003:] what you're considering a, a four month's building or a of that kind? [speaker004:] no the, the building plan was normally about ten months [speaker003:] ten months, I see so somebody might move in before the building was complete [speaker004:] er, there was, there was a criteria to meet before anyone was er permitted to move in it [speaker003:] well obviously [speaker004:] the whole block might not have been completed in its entirety before somebody moved in [speaker003:] just to get the general picture, let me an exact period, let's get estimates because we have no idea, er, so estimates might be made or the management costs, four months or six months would you say before anybody moved in? [speaker004:] er six to eight months [speaker003:] six to eight... and again of course it's hard to say but er, when would the brochure, the sales brochure for that development be printed and available [speaker004:] the sales brochure would normally be available for the day that this, the show flat was open on site, er [speaker003:] and again roughly when would that be in with the building? [speaker004:] that, that would roughly be er three or four months into the building or six months before first occupation [speaker003:] yes, [speaker004:] forgive me Mr if I want to ask somebody some questions about the brochure and er the layout and so on and I find out Counsel hasn't, I gather from Mr that Mr would be the person I ought to ask, is that right? [speaker003:] my Lord [speaker002:] that would be great, yeah [speaker004:] I'm sorry [speaker003:] I'm not sure about that my Lord [speaker002:] oh, is that what Mr said, I'm not stopping you asking this witness at all, I don't want, you mention the brochures and I don't want to ask him questions, the kind I want to ask, er, with which they're not asked by Counsel, I shouldn't ask at this stage anyway, but by all means ask Mr about it, I just thought Mr said, when I tried, asked him about it, very understandably, Mr the man, cos you are totally free to ask about it of course [speaker003:] my Lord these are the matters I would like to explore at time [speaker002:] very well thank you... [speaker003:] can I go back to where we were [speaker002:] yes, Mr I'm sorry [speaker001:] what's wrong? [speaker002:] the juror in the back row has asked if the witness could speak up if I may give you a word of advice, you may think it's rude, but when Mr is asking questions try not to turn down towards him, if you try and face across the jury, that's what carries the voice if you're looking at them, if you turn to your left, a bit of your head goes down a bit, it's only natural, you're not as used to courts as Mr is, er, he, he, your, it, your voice smothers, it's not a question of shouting it's just looking in the right direction, yes Mr go on [speaker003:] now Mr what I'm asking you about is the space see how I'm speaking out so try and speak up like this so the jury can hear [clears throat]. The brochure is published, printed and published about four months into the building, is that right or not? [speaker004:] that would be approximately correct, yes [speaker003:] and again as an approximation... that is when the show flat is available, the public are coming on site to view [speaker004:] the brochure is usually prepared for the show flat opening, yes [speaker003:] yes... and what, and I'm, I'm talking about nineteen eighty seven, before eighty seven what was the time schedule, I know it will vary, from development to development for the final sales so to speak, how long will it take?, I appreciate it varies [speaker004:] [clears throat] it will vary depending upon the number of flats in the block, but gener [speaker003:] obviously [speaker004:] generally you're looking at an eighteen month's sales period [speaker003:] yes... so will this be right, that somebody towards the end of the sale period er might be looking at a brochure that was printed at least eighteen months ago and maybe longer?... [speaker004:] not generally towards the end of the sale period because you would be looking at er the brochure or the costs been put together eight months before the first flat was sold, erm... a new brochure following a new estimate probably would have been prepared after about twenty months, that is to say er that would have been prepared before the last people entered the er flats [speaker003:] are you saying, I want to clear my mind, that in the course of the sale period from first to a different, second additional brochure might be introduced, is that what your saying? [speaker004:] the brochure may well have been updated during the sales period [speaker003:] may well, well what was the company's policy, to update in the sales period or to use the same brochure? [speaker004:] it depends on the length of the sales period [speaker003:] well what was the criteria used, whether to have a second edition or not? [speaker004:] er, if the, if the, er service charge costs had gone up in the meantime, obviously after you reached the end of the first accounting period you have some accounts to go on and you have a much better idea of what the costs are actually going to be [speaker003:] well I wo wonder if you could forgive me address the question if you can, what was the criterion or what was the basis on which a decision is made, whether they have a second additional brochure or, or not? [speaker004:] it's not a second edition of the brochure it's just an updating of the figures that are included within the brochure [speaker003:] well can we look please at one brochure, er take er C thirty one, C page thirty one... it actually begins at twenty nine... I want to ask you one or two questions about this, have you got page twenty nine? [speaker004:] I have... [speaker003:] do you know the site at er? [speaker004:] yes I do... [speaker003:] on page thirty one [clears throat] that rather grand building shown on the left hand side, is that? [speaker004:] I don't know [speaker003:] is that building anywhere near the site? [speaker004:] I don't know [speaker003:] but I thought you knew the site [speaker004:] I know the site, I don't know that building [speaker003:] do you know the lake on the right? [speaker004:] I do not [speaker003:] there's is a, no lake near the development is there? [speaker004:] I don't know [speaker003:] but, how many times have you been there? [speaker004:] once [speaker003:] I see... well er, when you talk about updating er on page thirty one we have there set up at er Mr service charges, service co service parking costs, total and then personal costs total, estimated weekly total, are you saying the rest of the brochure was to remain unchanged and that portion of it would be changed?... [speaker004:] that the portion relating to the service and apartment costs would be updated certainly, erm [speaker003:] well in other words that means reprinting that page doesn't it?, page thirty one [speaker004:] it would [speaker003:] or sticking on top of it er loosely er amendment [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker003:] well what course was adopted by if it needed updating? [speaker004:] I think the page was usually re-printed as I recall... [speaker003:] but you were the person who actually worked out the, what costs would go in this document weren't you? [speaker004:] we supplied the figures [speaker003:] no not we, you [speaker004:] people who worked for yes, through me, yes [speaker003:] but you were the person at most directly responsible for the provision of these figures is that [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] right? [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] thank you... and you would accept wouldn't you, that if we have a brochure, let us say printed for next January, January nineteen ninety four alright, and I came along as a retired person in the Spring of nineteen ninety five or indeed the Summer of nineteen ninety five, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen months later, those brochure figures will inevitably be out of date in the sense of being inaccurate wouldn't they? [speaker004:] those, those brochure figures are updated each, first of September now [speaker003:] no, not now, I'll come to now, I'm asking you about then [speaker004:] oh I'm sorry I thought you was talking about ninety four, ninety five [speaker003:] no, no, I was giving you an example to what would happen on the time scale, but let me go back to January nineteen eighty seven, if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven... if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven and I went to buy in March, April, May nineteen eighty eight, the figures in the service charges would be out of date [speaker004:] they would be, yes... [speaker003:] but the brochure would still be on the desk so to speak of the sales office [speaker004:] as far as I'm aware, yes... [speaker003:] you said you now update once a year, is that right, every September? [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker003:] when was that policy implemented by the company? [speaker004:] erm... I recall that would have been probably nineteen eighty nine [speaker003:] a year after the article [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] am I to understand from that answer Mr, that at some stage after the Daily Telegraph article there was a review in the about er what should be published in the brochures about service charges [speaker004:] yeah, there was a continuous review at all times on such matters [speaker003:] what, no doubt but it slightly avoids the answer, was there a specific review about updating service charges after the Telegraph article? [speaker004:] I can't say that it was linked to the Telegraph article, obviously this matter [speaker003:] well when did it take place? this decision to update once a year [speaker004:] as I recall nineteen eighty nine [speaker003:] who took that decision? [speaker004:] I think it was a decision that was er suggested by by our board [speaker003:] now er limited company's don't really make suggestions, who from the make the suggestion? [speaker004:] myself [speaker003:] ah, thank you... you made the suggestion, to whom did you make that suggestion?... [speaker004:] I can't recall [speaker003:] well would it be to Mr? [speaker004:] I'd be speculating if I said yes, I can't recall [speaker003:] well who would you need to make the suggestion that the brochure should be updated once a year, to whom would you normally make that suggestion, if it needs to be made? [speaker004:] it would be the matter that would have been raised at our board meeting and relayed on to [speaker003:] does Mr sit on the board of [speaker004:] he was a member of the board, but he didn't usually attend the meetings... [speaker003:] and what is your present position now in terms of? [speaker004:] I'm managing director of [speaker003:] managing director, who's your chairman? [speaker004:] er there is no chairman following the er management buy out the position is, still remains open [speaker003:] I, I understand, but you were a director in nineteen eighty nine? [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] well who was the senior director at in nineteen eighty nine, er, er apart of course Mr who was a member of your board [speaker004:] in nineteen eighty nine if I recall there was a divisional structure which er comprised of a number of companies within the division and there was a managing director of that division who would have reported back to the board [speaker003:] who, who was that managing director? [speaker004:] I believe that would of been Mr [speaker003:] Mr... but you must have therefore suggested it to them then that er... the service charges needed to be updated once a year [speaker004:] as I recall that would be correct, yes... [speaker003:] now what gave the reason for that so we can all follow it quite clearly... see if I've got this right, was the reason for the updating of the service charges once a year in the brochure, the fact that if you didn't update the brochure might mislead a prospective purchaser? [speaker004:] no, the brochure would not necessary have been out of date, it depended when the first occupation was, if er the first occupation was in July or August it may not have been necessary to update the brochure on Sept on the first of September [speaker003:] that one, but you see you've introduced a policy of updating once a year [speaker004:] mm [speaker003:] and that policy hadn't existed before [speaker004:] well the brochures became, were dated each year, the service charge, a date was put on the service charges each year, that's not to say they were,th they automatically changed, it depends on how long the scheme had been open [speaker003:] I wonder if we can get to the point of my question, it may be my fault but I will try again, the reason I am suggesting to you was the decision was made to update the service charges once a year was because if you didn't update the, the existing brochure might mislead, is that right or not? [speaker004:] er the existing brochure might become out of date depending on how long the scheme had been open [speaker003:] I didn't ask you about out of date, I said might mislead a prospective purchaser... that is the reason isn't it why you would update? [speaker004:] we would update so that we would have current figures in the brochure, yes [speaker003:] er, but, the logical consequence of that is if you didn't have current figures the existing brochure if used might mislead [speaker004:] it is possible [speaker003:] but that was the purpose of updating wasn't it?... isn't it? Mr [speaker004:] the purpose of updating is so that you have current information, yes [speaker003:] and avoid misleading the prospective purchaser about the service charge [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] thank you, got that.... It therefore follows as night follows day that before you started updating your brochures anyway, there was always a risk that the brochures that were on site might be out of date and therefore I'm not suggesting deliberately, but innocently, might mislead an elderly purchaser, because the figures were out of date, that's right isn't it? [speaker004:] but it was also stated very clearly that the brochures were based on a budget figure, it was an estimate and it would be er the subject of an adjustment at a later stage... [speaker003:] you see Lord is here very splendidly to argue the case and at the moment I'd like you to address the question, I'll ask it again, the question is, I think it's a simple one, it follows from your answer about why the brochures had to be updated, but when there was a time when they were not updated before nineteen eighty nine, there was a risk wasn't there that with the brochures printing service charges towards the end of the sales period someone might have been mislead by the brochure? that's right isn't it? [speaker004:] I, I don't believe that to be the case because further information was provided to the er legal representatives of the prospective purchase indicating very clearly that the brochures were an estimate, or the costs in the brochures were an estimate or the cost in the brochures were an estimate and therefore it would be subject to adjustment... [speaker003:] you mean a solicitor's letter to another solicitor during the conveyancing period [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] that's what you mean? [speaker004:] yes indeed [speaker003:] but if the elderly pensioner doesn't read all the solicitor's correspondence or the solicitor doesn't communicate every fact of the correspondence but relies solely on the brochure they're carrying in their pocket or their handbag... the brochure taken in isolation might mislead might it not? [speaker004:] I, I don't ever believe that the brochure should be taken in isolation [speaker003:] I see, let's look at page thirty one please... are there hidden costs, do you see that? [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] whose wording is this? are there hidden costs, the answer to this is definitely no, whose wording?... [speaker004:] the wording of the company or the person who put the brochure together [speaker003:] yeah, it's not the wording of a company cos companies can't write, it's only human beings that can write, which human being is responsible for this wording?... [speaker004:] the wording would have been put together by sales and marketing people in conjunction with their agent [speaker002:] Mr you see various people are giving evidence, and Mr wants to ask the right person, certain questions, namely the person who er... devised those words and er you are er somebody in a very important position er and er he's trying to get it from you, and as he's pointed out to you a company can't sit down and produce in some corporate way a phrase someone or two human beings or more have got to do it and he wants to know if you can help us er who, who that was, that's, that's all you see, he doesn't want to ask you about it, no doubt er, er in the same way as he'd want to ask a person that actually devised a word, d'ya see? [speaker004:] I understand [speaker002:] now try and help him [speaker004:] yes I, I would suggest that I, I don't know the particular individual who put the words together, but you would have to ask Mr the marketing director for that information [speaker002:] thank you [speaker003:] is Mr sitting in this court room? [speaker004:] is he [speaker003:] and you think he is the person from best able to say whose work is in this brochure? [speaker004:] yes I do [speaker003:] did you have anything to do with the wording? [speaker004:] no nothing at all [speaker002:] in fairness Mr that is what Mr said [speaker003:] I understand [speaker002:] earlier on [speaker003:] I do understand that [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] but I, I'm just making sure with this witness [speaker002:] oh course [speaker003:] what the position is [speaker002:] oh, we don't want to lose him [LAUGHTER] before explore it, of course do explore it with him, that's what he said you'll have to ask Mr about it [speaker003:] yes and I've just verified that this witness agrees on that matter and that he has nothing to do with it, is that right? [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] but what you have to do with it is the compilation of the figures that go into the little table under so what would it cost, those are your figures aren't they? [speaker004:] the figures er relating to the service and er maintenance and management costs yes [speaker003:] you mean the first half of the table? [speaker004:] the first half, yes [speaker003:] you're responsible for those? [speaker004:] well not even the freehold security, that was agreed, that's the decision of the er P L C board and as to what level that will be at, we are responsible for the, the service and management costs [speaker003:] so is this right? not, should we try avoiding we and talk about I cos it, if it's we it might be somebody else you see [speaker004:] yeah [speaker003:] you probably understand that, is it you who's responsible for the seven pound thirty five figure? [speaker004:] I am, yes [speaker003:] and equally responsible on that one for eleven pounds, five P [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker003:] and for the fourteen pounds, seventy [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] I am grateful... now will you turn to page seventy eight in the centre... This is you know is the brochure for er Westcliff on Sea... [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] and on page seventy eight there is one of those tables, it follows from your previous answer, that you would be responsible for the figures of six pounds, thirty five at the top, nine pounds, fifty five and twelve pounds, seventy [speaker004:] that's correct... [speaker002:] I'm sorry page Mr you said it [speaker003:] page seventy eight [speaker002:] I was looking at something else, thank you very much... [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] and you say P L C, somebody at P L C will be responsible for the freehold security [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker002:] they remain constant though don't they? [speaker004:] for the first twenty one years [speaker002:] yes yes, that isn't variable?, no, er... [speaker003:] now can we look Mr at the print below the table, costs, questions and answers [reading] we find that many people considering purchasing a apartment have similar questions [] can I ask you this, would you personally ever deal with people who were considering purchasing a apartment? [speaker004:] er, only on occasions, normally er it would be dealt with by the sales and marketing people [speaker003:] why, that's what I thought, but would you on occasion have dealt with people who wished to buying or considering buying? [speaker004:] only if there was a particular question relating to er the management of the scheme [speaker003:] the management [speaker004:] the management of the development [speaker003:] yes... what, I simply don't know, if had an on-going site, where the public was going in would you visit it, in the normal course of your business? [speaker004:] I would tend not to until the scheme was actually in management and running [speaker003:] up and running [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] so you intend to deal more with people who already bought and were in [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker003:] is that fair? [speaker004:] that's fair, yes [speaker003:] yes... it says [reading] we would like to take this opportunity to answer some of the questions you might have [] and then the question comes [reading] will the management charges greatly increase? [] did you have any part to play in the posing of this question in the brochure? [speaker004:] no... [speaker003:] but did you know it was there? [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] but come as not surprisingly I assume you have read the relevant brochures [speaker004:] that's correct [speaker003:] read the answer [reading] the answer is no have appointed the U K's leading management specialist, management services Limited for several reasons, the firstly because of their profession and caring attitude to the management of housing, secondly, because time has shown, the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or in the level of inflation [], did you have any responsibility at all for that sentence? and secondly the time [speaker004:] I didn't write that sentence but I was asked if, er, that was a reasonable, er if it was reasonable for that statement to be made, and I agreed it was [speaker003:] when were you asked that question and by whom? [speaker004:] I was asked that question by Mr erm prior to the production of the first brochure with that statement in it [speaker003:] when was that statement first incorporated into the brochure?, what year approximately?... [speaker004:] I would have said er nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, but cannot recall precisely [speaker003:] something in that time? [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] er is this fair?, was it Mr idea that it should be incorporated into the brochure or somebody elses? [speaker004:] it was Mr that posed the question to me and I understood that it was his idea [speaker003:] and who would take the decision as to whether it should go in the brochure?... on your understanding [speaker004:] that would have been a decision of Mr... [speaker003:] but you were consulted? [speaker004:] I was [speaker003:] did you have the power of vetoing it if you wanted? [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] if you thought it had [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] you did? [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] so it required your sanction and approval, that was the position? [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] be it nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, it may not matter, did you know previous to that in February nineteen eighty seven, he as chairman had given instructions that this brochure should be withdrawn, did you know that? [speaker004:] I was aware of that, yes... [speaker003:] aware of it at the time, at or about the time when the instruction was given... [speaker004:] I can't recall as to the exact time when I learned of that instruction, but I was aware that the instruction had been given [speaker003:] well not exact, obviously, I'm not saying you remembered if it was a Tuesday morning or a Wednesday afternoon, but he gave you instructions according to Mr in February nineteen eighty seven, would it be about that time that you learnt of the instructions? [speaker004:] it would have been about that time, yes, or soon after [speaker003:] by the spring of nineteen eighty seven? [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] were you aware of the reason why the instruction was given?... to withdraw it [speaker004:] it, it may have been because I had raised some concerns, concerning that particular er statement [speaker003:] ah... you had raised that concern, when and with whom? [speaker004:] I don't recall precisely with whom, but I raised the concerns towards the end of nineteen eighty six or at, or at the beginning, beginning of nineteen eighty seven [speaker003:] and what were your concerns? [speaker004:] my concerns is, my concerns were at the time that we, we might not be able to continue with that statement because it might become inaccurate [speaker003:] yes and might therefore mislead [speaker004:] if it, if we continued to keep it in, yes [speaker003:] because it might mislead a purchaser [speaker004:] well I, I anticipated that the management charges would rise over and above inflation and I suggested we should, should not continue with that statement [speaker003:] and the reason for that was because if left in it might mislead a prospective purchaser [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] thank you... so within either a year... or maybe something approaching two years... of the existence of the brochures with those words in you raise the concern, that it might be misleading if left in... [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] with whom did you voice that concern? [speaker004:] I've already stated I do not recall er the person I voiced that concern with at the time [speaker003:] but to whom would you normally address that concern in the normal course of your business? [speaker004:] it would have been a matter that I may have raised at our board meeting, again, again, that would have been passed on [speaker003:] I understand erm Mr... because you realize in the short time that wording has been in the brochure, that it would not be possible to keep the management charges at the level of inflation or below it [speaker004:] there were pressures coming on the company which would mean that we could not continue to do that [speaker003:] when you known exact reasons why, but the conclusion was you couldn't keep the management charges at a rate of the level of or below inflation [speaker004:] I came to that conclusion at that time [speaker003:] right.... Were you present when Mr gave evidence in this court? [speaker004:] for most of the time, yes [speaker003:] were you present [clears throat] when he defined for the benefit of my Lord and the jury, what was meant by management charges in that sentence [speaker004:] yes... [speaker003:] I think he gave a figure of one pound, fifty nine was what was referred to by the phrase management charges in that sentence [speaker004:] I recall that figure, yes [speaker003:] is he right that that is what it intended to be referred to? [speaker004:] yes he is... [speaker003:] well can you explain please as the man who devised these charges and assessed them and work them out... how by some process of reason anybody reading that sentence gets the clue that when it says management charges will rise at a rate below the level of inflation, it refers to one pound fifty nine, how can you understand that? [speaker004:] you, you could not work out that it was one pound fifty nine, you could, you could assume that it was a proportion of that six pound thirty five [speaker003:] well, why, why do you assume that? [speaker004:] because it's talking purely about management charges, a, the cost of the service being provided by [speaker003:] now Mr look at the wording at the top, service, apartment costs, well that means the cost of running the apartment doesn't it?, apartment costs [speaker004:] yes, and then it says ordinary management services [speaker003:] no, no hold, hold a moment, the first line apart from cost, that's plain English isn't it? [speaker004:] yes [speaker003:] what the apartment costs, right [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] all maintenance, warden and management services six pounds, thirty five, right [speaker004:] correct [speaker003:] [clears throat], look at the sentence below, will the management charges greatly increase, the answers no because time has shown the management charges rise at a rate below the level of inflation... I suggest it to you to the ordinary person, they would think that the management charges there meant the costs that are listed above see [speaker004:] I knew what I understood by it and that was that it was management [speaker003:] oh [speaker004:] charges [speaker003:] well you had the advantage of inside information, I'm talking about the ordinary punter, if you forgive the expression, the ordinary customer... you realize don't you that there's no clue in that sentence that management charges is limited to a small element of the six pounds thirty five [speaker004:] I agree that in hindsight it could have been clearer [speaker003:] well that's very kind of you... that's another basis on which it might, albeit innocently, had mislead a prospective purchaser, correct? [speaker004:] it, conceivably entirely inn innocently, yes it could [speaker003:] yeah, I'm not suggesting it was done wickedly, and deliberately, I'm suggesting with hindsight it's sloppy and, and uncomfortably misleading, you follow the point don't you? [speaker004:] as I said it could have been worded better [speaker003:] yes, well I expect you'd say that... worded better in the interests of a vulnerable section of society to take this [speaker004:] er [speaker003:] correct?

[speaker001:] I wouldn't entirely agree, that the whole, that all of the purchasers are entirely just because of er their age [speaker002:] no, no [speaker001:] don't think you become entirely vulnerable just because you age, I hope not anyway [speaker002:] so, so do I, but er at the same we said this much to Mr that you would except that many of the people who the company deal, deal with are old and concerned with a limited income on fixed pensions, you know that don't you? [speaker001:] the, the majority of the people the company deal with certainly are er pensioners [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] they come from all types of er social backgrounds [speaker002:] I'm sure, but they're many of them are concerned about their budget because they live off a fixed pension... [speaker001:] I don't know what the, the figures would be, er many of the residence actually had, had a considerable amount of er capital, because they had traded down into these properties [speaker002:] erm, I understand that they might trade down, but equally there are a number and I can take you to the letters written to the if you like, are you saying you didn't realize that many of these people would have to budget, carefully budget [speaker001:] I, I'd just, I'm not agreeing with the situation many, I'm not saying there wasn't anybody, clearly people were [speaker002:] some [speaker001:] some people were on fixed incomes [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] as I am [speaker002:] well now let's, let's go back to it, some people... might rely on their savings and some might of been mislead, that's correct [speaker001:] as I said earlier I don't believe anybody should of relied purely on the brochure, they had legal advisers [speaker002:] oh I understand. Does it say anywhere in this brochure, do not rely on what is in this brochure, but contact your solicitor who will have more information, does it say that anywhere? [speaker001:] it doesn't say about contacting a solicitor, but er, er each er purchaser had a solicitor appointed and further information was provided to that solicitor [speaker002:] obviously we will come to that.... But Mr if you know that in the real world ordinary people will often rely on statements in a brochure like this, don't you agree?, that's the object of it [speaker001:] I, I don't know, I certainly wouldn't rely on just a sales brochure if I was making a major trans [speaker003:] no of course you wouldn't, I don't suppose Mr would, but the whole purpose of a brochure like this, is not necessary a dishonourable purpose, it's a hook the punter, to use Mr elegant word, he want to make it so simple to hook the punter and make him or her say to himself that's where we want to live and set their heart on it, that's all the purpose of this brochure in it? or is the [speaker001:] yes it is, it's part [speaker003:] it's like the television advertisement [speaker001:] it's part of the sales process, yes [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] yeah well I mean so sure saves umbrage of course you didn't you'd be, er, I'm sure much more er careful, but then you're an experience er business man in the flash of youth.... [speaker002:] Mr so glad er generous compliment from my Lord [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] do you want to ask him something?... [speaker002:] if you were aware that er when you voiced your concern Mr did clearly agree with you, right? [speaker001:] subsequently in that instruction yes [speaker002:] in your or about the break of nineteen eighty seven [speaker001:] er correct [speaker002:] but equally we now know until the Daily Telegraph published its article on the ninth of January nineteen eighty eight, some of these brochures with this representation or claim was still in circulation to the general public you know that? [speaker001:] I've heard that evidence given, yes... [speaker002:] well Mr says he discovered that after the Telegraph article... and to document of the papers that relates to it that supports that, did you discover that too? [speaker001:] I didn't personally discover that... [speaker002:] well if it was your concern that wanted that sentence out, was it your concern to see that the brochure was withdrawn? [speaker001:] no, I'd voiced my concern and I understood the instruction had been given for the brochures or for that particular part of the brochure to be withdrawn and [speaker002:] would it help for my Lord and the jury who's business would it be to ensure that it was withdrawn, who's business? [speaker001:] Mr gave the instructions [speaker002:] that doesn't answer my question, who's business would it be to ensure that the brochures were withdrawn? [speaker001:] ultimately the sales and marketing director [speaker002:] who was at the time? [speaker001:] Mr [speaker002:] thank you... so have we got this right beyond measure in the chain, the responsibility in the group of companies, you bring to the attention of your board and ultimately to Mr the fact of your concern about the centre piece [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] he gives the instruction, the brochure should be withdrawn [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] and it was Mr task to ensure that it's carried out [speaker001:] as I understand it, yes [speaker002:] thank you,... Now I go back to the table, let's try and er get down to some specific example, when would er, when was priced Westcliff on Sea?, when, when was that begun to develop er Mr [speaker001:] er, I believe it would have been nineteen eighty five [speaker002:] nineteen eighty five... and we can see the picture of it, or a drawing of it... on page seventy, I haven't looked to see how many apartments there is [speaker001:] a hundred and thirty nine [speaker002:] a hundred and thirty nine, so, oh yes I see it page seventy seven it tells us I think how many, a hundred and thirty nine, and this is obviously a pretty big development [speaker001:] certainly is, yes [speaker002:] is it at the top end of the, it starts at the top end of the slope? [speaker001:] it would be yes [speaker002:] and again approximately how long would it take er from the commencement of the building to completion, er approximately [speaker001:] er in this particular case it was released in phases so [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] it's probably, it, it may of been up to three years [speaker002:] I understand... and you were responsible at all times for the figures which estimated the maintenance order and management services? [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] were there a number of brochures therefore printed sir?... [speaker001:] I believe the brochure had been updated, yes [speaker002:] you believe, well what are we looking at here, page seventy eight, it's been produced by er for are we looking at the first brochure, or an updated version or what?... [speaker001:] I imagine this is the first version [speaker002:] why, why do you imagine?... [speaker001:] because it, er because these statements still contained within it... [speaker002:] oh you mean the statement? [speaker001:] correct... [speaker002:] well how often did you update the figures for home?... remembering when started in nineteen eighty five [speaker001:] I don't recall the actual month the scheme opened in nineteen eighty five [speaker002:] no [speaker001:] I believe it was towards the end of the financial year, the figures probably would have been updated at er the end of nineteen eighty six [speaker002:] so when would the first figures be given by you for the purpose of printing, approximately [speaker001:] probably early in nineteen eighty five [speaker002:] what was, before the Spring? [speaker001:] probably er Winter to Spring nineteen eighty five [speaker002:] you mean the Winter of eighty four, five?, Christmas eighty four [speaker001:] say January eighty five [speaker002:] right, in or about January eighty five? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] I'm not tying you to a specific month, but about January nineteen eighty five you would give the figures for the printing of the first brochure [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] when would the last sketches er be around so to speak in broad terms to, to look for about [speaker001:] oh, because there were so many units it was er a long selling period [speaker002:] approximately what year were talking to? [speaker001:] it probably would have sold out in nineteen eighty eight [speaker002:] eighty eight... so are you saying the brochure was reprinted between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty eight?, by [speaker001:] I imagine the first reprint would have been erm [speaker002:] er it doesn't matter if you know [speaker001:] no I don't know, but I, I, I imagine the er first reprint would have been September nineteen eighty six [speaker002:] well as the person responsible for giving this information to the public... you would, you would be anxious to get it as accurate as possible wouldn't you? [speaker001:] it would have been updated in September eighty six [speaker002:] can I come back to the question if, you see if you don't answer it I'll repeat it, you as the person responsible for the figures would be anxious to make sure they were reaching the public accurately [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] thank you. If you gave these figures in January nineteen eighty five, approximately by when would they be out of date and inaccurate and would require updating?, approximately when? [speaker001:] they would have been updated in September nineteen eighty six [speaker002:] oh, they may of been updated then, the question I asked you was a different one, when was the moment when they became inaccurate?... [speaker001:] er, I, I can't say that they became inaccurate, they may well have been entirely accurate for the whole of the period from when they were first produced through to September nineteen eighty six [speaker002:] what for twenty one months? [speaker001:] yes, because it's only when the scheme actually starts to operate that you can er get a clear picture of what the cost are going to be, they are budgets, they are estimates and until you start incurring costs you can't be absolutely certain as to how the costs are gonna end up... [speaker002:] I see, when would you start knowing what the actual costs were, when would you start knowing? [speaker001:] er towards the end of the first full financial year [speaker002:] give a month for the year please [speaker001:] September eighty six [speaker002:] you're saying until then you won't have no idea if these figures will be accurate or inaccurate [speaker001:] that would be the most appropriate time to determine that, yes [speaker002:] are you saying you wouldn't know whether they were accurate or inaccurate until twenty one months later?... [speaker001:] I would say that they were accurate when they were produced and there produced on the basis of accuracy at the time and they would be reviewed after the first financial period [speaker002:] are you saying, er, I'll put it a third time, are you saying or not that you do not know whether the figures that you published are accurate until twenty one months later?, is that what you're saying? [speaker001:] the figures were accurate when they were produced and the figures [speaker002:] how could they be accurate if they are an estimate? [speaker001:] well they are an estimate of what we believe the running cost would be [speaker002:] that's a different matter, when do you know whether they're accurate?, twenty one months later [speaker001:] after the first er effectively after the first financial period [speaker002:] twenty one months later [speaker001:] in this case, yes [speaker002:] well in your experience, after the first financial year, did the figures require adjustment? [speaker001:] they would require adjust because we're then looking towards the next twelve months [speaker002:] would they require adjustment? [speaker001:] they would require adjustment for looking ahead, yes [speaker002:] do you as a person responsible for the figures, ensure that they were adjusted? [speaker001:] they would have been adjusted, yes [speaker002:] yes, I'll ask you the question again, did you as the person responsible for these figures, ensure that they were adjusted? [speaker001:] I would have requested the adjustments to be made yes [speaker002:] to whom would you make that request? [speaker001:] to the er sales and marketing people at [speaker002:] of whom Mr is the most senior manager, at the time [speaker001:] at the time, yes... [speaker002:] so speaking from your knowledge, you would have made the request in or about September nineteen eighty six that should be updated? [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] and provided it with a [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] in order that the first brochure be published? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] was that done? [speaker001:] as far as I can recall... [speaker002:] what is there in this brochure that tells me whether it's the first edition, the second edition or the third edition? [speaker001:] in this brochure it doesn't [speaker002:] it doesn't... who's responsibility would it be to see that the old brochures were withdrawn and the new brochures were put on in there place? [speaker001:] sales marketing, Mr ultimately [speaker002:] Mr... with hindsight yeah, I think you would accept Mr a clearly, clearly is a vital thing to preserve the integrity of good name of to make sure if humanly possible these brochures are accurate and updated as possible, you'd agree with that? [speaker001:] in hindsight I would [speaker002:] yeah... and since the Daily Telegraph article indeed system has changed as you say, hasn't it, in eighty nine? [speaker001:] many systems have changed since then [speaker002:] no this system [speaker001:] this system [speaker002:] about updating these figures [speaker001:] this system amongst others, yes [speaker002:] maybe many others systems have changed [speaker001:] indeed [speaker002:] but in terms of what goes in the costs of the management charges in the brochure the systems changed since the Telegraph article hasn't it? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] and the changed is to have those charges automatically updated once a year [speaker001:] correct... [speaker002:] so let's go back to home for a moment... you say it was updated or should of been updated twenty one months later, as the first update [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] was it updated a second time or did you ask for it to be updated a second time?... [speaker001:] I can't recall precisely but I, I imagine yes it would have been up, I would have asked for it to be updated at September eighty seven as well [speaker002:] well please don't rely on imagination... would it of been part of your duty to ensure it was updated in September nineteen eighty seven? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] are you in possession, that you're aware of any documents where you issue a request for the brochure to be updated in September nineteen eighty six or September nineteen eighty seven... is there any document either in your possession or one you would get by another, from your request for updating these brochures [speaker001:] if it's not already been disclosed, probably not [speaker002:] take it from me that I haven't seen one and if there is one I'd be grateful if somebody on your site would point it out, but to my knowledge no such document has been disclosed. Would it be done by a document? [speaker001:] it would normally, if I recall correctly at the time, there would normally been a memorandum listing new charges for each development [speaker002:] exactly, so it would be a document issued by the by you the with the intention of what Mr and in effect update brochure here and in charge [speaker001:] it wouldn't of gone directly to Mr no it would have gone to his er regional sales staff [speaker002:] who would you send it to? [speaker001:] it would have gone to whichever region the sales manager responsible or the regional managing director [speaker002:] well who would it go to? [speaker001:] it would have gone to either the sales manager or the regional managing director of the Eastern region of at the time [speaker002:] names please nineteen eighty seven [speaker001:] I can't recall... [speaker002:] will you promise to have a look er will [speaker001:] there were a number of changes of er, in that position of regional managing director [speaker002:] no, no, but were would the documents be in? [speaker001:] I don't know, if they haven't been disclosed I, they, they probably have not been retained.... [speaker002:] Can you lay your hands on the second and third addition of the brochures then?, if there were a second and third edition... [speaker001:] I personally don't keep copies of all of the brochures [speaker002:] no, no, it was just a bound to be a... cos you see, let me explain something to you... until you gave evidence today, certainly I didn't and maybe others didn't realize in this court room that what were looking at is that one edition of the brochure which may of had several editions, do you understand? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] and you Mr revealed something new, I hope you don't, there may of been two if not three editions... [speaker001:] of the costs possibly [speaker002:] well you said the brochure had been reprinted [speaker001:] why I don't think the whole brochure would have been reprinted [speaker002:] page two [speaker001:] I'm talking about the er [speaker002:] page two [speaker001:] the changes to the costs [speaker002:] well is page seventy one, which you're will be reprinted... and it would require a what is it of er page seventy eight... [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] so there are two pages what would have required a reprint, seventy one and seventy eight [speaker001:] yes... [speaker002:] the first reprint should of occurred twenty one months after the brochure was first printed and the second reprint about twelve months later [speaker001:] I believe that to be true [speaker002:] and the person ultimately responsible ensuring that happened of the system would be Mr is it?... [speaker001:] well ultimately I guess, there is a regional managing director for each region who would er be responsible for their region [speaker002:] are you able to help this jury with this simple matter, to your knowledge, on this development, on a hundred and thirty eight or so apartments... did you see the second addition of this brochure and the third?, did you personally ever see it? [speaker001:] I don't recall... [speaker002:] but this whole case is about management and service charges and you're person who erm assess them for the purposes of the brochure, you say you don't recall whether it's the second or third addition ever seen by you? [speaker001:] not, not specifically, no... [speaker002:] let me ask you something else... on a development Mr... I when I watched use the er help from time to time there are major items of expenditure, after the properties built, correct [speaker001:] correct, yes [speaker002:] let me give you one example, there are... many of these developments had flat roofs didn't they?, not all of them, but some had flat roofs [speaker001:] a minority, yes [speaker002:] a minority, they were covered with felt rather than ash felt were they not? [speaker001:] in some cases, yes [speaker002:] they would require replacing every seven years would they not? [speaker001:] seven to ten years would be normal [speaker002:] other major items of expenditure which would require replacement would be lift ropes is that right? [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] corridor carpets... [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] car park tarmac [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] boundary walls [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] warden call systems [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] and alarm systems [speaker001:] yes... after different periods of time there not all [speaker002:] quite, quite obviously they don't all... There was in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article no contingency fund in your budget was there?... [speaker001:] no... [speaker002:] when did the contingency fund first come into the budget?... [speaker001:] erm... [speaker002:] approximately [speaker001:] we approximately... the subject we had been looking at for some time so I approximately, nineteen eighty eight, nineteen eighty nine [speaker002:] oh no, it wasn't there at the time of the Telegraph article was it? [speaker001:] are you talking about this particular scheme? [speaker002:] I'm, no, no, no, I'm talking about the principal of putting in a contingency fund in the charges [speaker001:] well as I say I recall it would have been nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, I can't recall precisely [speaker002:] after the Telegraph article... [speaker001:] I believe that to be the case [speaker002:] thank you.... You thought it was a good idea didn't you? [speaker001:] yes... [speaker002:] so it meant that for some time before contingency fund development was introduced... you must of had some concerns er about the accuracy of the figures you were putting forward for the publication, can, can I explain that a little more?... if after a few years a major repair needs to be carried out there was no contingency fund, it might mean sticking another two or three hundred pounds a year on the service charges, might it not, to cover a major repair [speaker001:] in prac er, in practice er it is unlikely that there would be any major repairs at the cost of the residence within the first eight to ten years [speaker002:] well you already agree with me that a flat roof might require replacing in seven [speaker001:] it might in general [speaker002:] might [speaker001:] generally ten years, I don't recall any, replacing any flat roofs of less than ten years [speaker002:] we needn't argue of seven or ten, but let's say eight, I don't care, but when that fell due it would mean wouldn't it, there would be a major charge to the there residence, whoever they were? [speaker001:] unless don't agree to pick up the cost [speaker002:] ah [speaker001:] which they often did... [speaker002:] come on Mr don't generally pass on the cost [speaker001:] no, that is not correct, in many cases went well beyond what they were legally obliged to do [speaker002:] why, because it would have been unfair to charge the residence? [speaker001:] it depended on what the particular er problem was at the time, if something failed after four or five years it was then covered by insurance by the N H B C or by guarantees [speaker002:] I see let take it from the other end, why did you have to take the insertion of the contingency fund of the estimates [speaker001:] because I believe we should be planning for long term er to repair the [speaker002:] exactly, but why wait until nineteen eighty eight to discover that, how long had you been doing these estimates for?, how many years have you been doing? [speaker001:] on a limited number of schemes we have been doing the estimates for four or five years [speaker002:] no not we, you I'm asking Mr you have been doing estimates for four or five years have you? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] by nineteen eighty eight? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] so you, that was, you started doing them in about nineteen eighty three? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] and approximately how many sites would you have given estimates for between eighty three and eighty eight? approximate number [speaker001:] er, well that was changing all the time but we had erm like [speaker002:] but is it twenty, thirty, forty, I just don't know [speaker001:] oh it would be, been er probably eighty schemes [speaker002:] eighty... obviously I'm not tying you to a figure we just want to get some idea, so seventy, eighty or ninety as maybe, about eighty schemes over five years you've given estimates for [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] which didn't contain a contingency fund element [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] correct [speaker001:] the main, er the usual recurring cost was er redecorating cost which we had introduced a fund for on the outset [speaker002:] sorry can, can we get to the question again, want to see if I've got it right, correct me if I'm wrong, over the eighty schemes and the five years that you had put forward budgets for all, you hadn't included a contingency fund element? [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker002:] that's correct... and it was your suggestion that a contingency fund should be introduced after the Telegraph part [speaker001:] in nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty nine, yes [speaker002:] yes, did that require the approval of Mr or not?... [speaker001:] again that would have been a matter raised at our board and passed on [speaker002:] could you please answer the question, would your suggestion require the approval of Mr? [speaker001:] ultimately, yes [speaker002:] did he approve it? [speaker001:] yes... [speaker002:] readily or not? [speaker001:] yes, I don't recall any argument [speaker002:] right, Mr did it require his approval, as the, as it were officer in charge of brochures? [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] it didn't require approval [speaker001:] no... [speaker002:] and with hindsight, although, don't think I'm being over critical, although you put forward eighty or so estimates for different schemes, with hindsight it's clearly more prudent and fairer and accurate, more accurate to have a contingency fund isn't it?, in the, in the budgetary cost [speaker001:] as a management principal one should include a contingency fund [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] as earlier as is reasonably to do so [speaker002:] what, it didn't need eighty schemes did it to be launched before you introduced it, it's something you'd been wanting to do wasn't it?... [speaker001:] something we considered that er [speaker002:] no, no, something you had been wanting to do, not we, you had been wanting to [speaker001:] yes I, I wanted to introduce a contingency fund [speaker002:] yes, had you met opposition to the introduction of that contingency fund? [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] well why wasn't it been done earlier? [speaker001:] because I didn't I didn't raise it earlier [speaker002:] I see.... You spoke to Mr er the journalist concerned didn't you? [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] did you ever raise with him back in January nineteen eighty eight something that you and Mr had both raised before, namely that what goes into the brochure is not to be relied on you've got to look at the solicitors correspondence, to interpret what is in the brochure, did you?, did you ever raise that with Mr the solicitor's correspondence?... [speaker001:] I don't recall that being a subject of my conversation, er [speaker002:] is the answer no you didn't raise it with Mr? [speaker001:] er we were given very little opportunity to raise anything with Mr [speaker002:] is the answer you did not raise it with Mr? [speaker001:] only because there was no opportunity [speaker003:] Huh, er just, please help us, you know we get on much better, of course you can give an explanation, all Mr wants, you requested is said whether you did raise it, of course you could say, we didn't, I didn't because erm of so and so, because there wasn't an opportunity or whatever, but do tell us whether yes or no whether you raised it surely that's possible Mr isn't it?, isn't it?, am I trying to assist you, during my people are just not answering the questions, put it again in blunt form Mr would you please [speaker002:] well the questions a very simple one, back in January nineteen eighty eight, on any occasion you spoke to Mr either before or after the first article did you ever raise this question with the solicitors letter? [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] thank you [speaker003:] we give it if you say why? [speaker002:] will you turn to page find one, thirty four,... What we're looking at is the accounts for Westcliff on Sea, the year ending thirty first of August nineteen ninety two, last year [speaker001:] correct [speaker002:] look please at item four, on page one, three, four... second paragraph, [reading] the contingency fund is designed to provide funds in order to pay for major repairs or replacements which may arise in the future... these accounts do not include the contingency fund despite strong recommendations from [], can you explain please Mr? [speaker001:] yes the residence association at er did not agree to the introduction of a contingency fund [speaker002:] I see, so you weren't able to have a contingency fund at [speaker001:] there is one there now, but we weren't able at the time, no [speaker002:] at the time... [cough] had you been strongly recommending it since eighty eight? [speaker001:] we, eighty eighty to eighty nine as I [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] say can't recall, we would have been recommending contingency fund [speaker002:] you you would [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] yes I understand... Mr very much.... [speaker005:] You erm stay with T one, three, four please... just so that we er understand the point you're making and I would ask you if you'd be so kind as to keep your voice well up.... These are the er accounts that Mr put to you, are they audited accounts? [speaker001:] Yes they are [speaker005:] are they provided for the residence at [speaker001:] each residence gets a copy [speaker005:] we can see at the bottom of one, three, four... bearing in mind that these are the August nineteen ninety two accounts, we see at the top of one, three, four that there have in fact been an adjustment there for the previous year to August nineteen ninety one... so that there was in fact an amount of surplus created to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, eighty P, is that right? [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker005:] so that the budgeted estimate for the previous year had been too high and there is an adjustment in favour of the residence for the following year [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker005:] when you've got a budget for an oncoming year, assuming you and I are here together in November ninety three and we're preparing a budget up till November ninety four, can you ever have precise figures which will be accurate to the last pound? [speaker001:] no, simply because it is an estimate [speaker005:] so that's your budget estimate, when we get to November nineteen ninety four you and I together we will then find out what has happened in practice [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] in this particular twelve month period your budget estimate would be... wrong in that you needed to pay the residence back a hundred and eight pounds [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker005:] well then, let's stick with contingency fund shall we?... you've told us that you wish to have a contingency fund among others at [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker005:] a contingency fund will be a fund available for any particular unforeseen occurrence in the future [speaker001:] unforeseen or, or knowing expenditure, what is unforeseen is when the expenditure is going to occur [speaker005:] exactly, but who has to pay in to the contingency fund if it's agreed by the residence? [speaker001:] the residence have to pay [speaker005:] so their charges would go up if you had to have a contingency fund? [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] does that go up as part of the management charge or part of the service charge which is not related to management? [speaker001:] it would go up as part of the service charge, the management charge would not change as a result [speaker005:] exactly... [speaker002:] Are you leaving the accounts Mr? [speaker005:] er my Lord I was going to [speaker002:] can I just ask him one question about it, erm, I'm not an accountant and you probably, I'm sure you know a lot more about accounts than I do, but in fact if you look at the revenue accounts for the year we're talking about ended August nineteen ninety two at page a hundred and thirty two, do you see that? [speaker001:] yes I do [speaker002:] you see there are two columns, the second column is budget, that right?... [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] and the first column, although it's not headed is, presumably actual expenditure, would that be right? [speaker001:] er yes [speaker002:] good, and if you rummaged over the details, if you look at the bottom... er, you'll see... er account, total costs a hundred thousand, sixty hundred and forty four pounds... budget... ninety six, eight, seven, four, so that er there in fact it looks as though the actual costs were something erm nearly four thousand pound er more than the budget, do you see? [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] er, if you just to avoid doubt, it looks as though, as we presume we go back to one, three, four that's less than the income was the revenue from things like the guest room and er the lounge and so on, you see? [speaker001:] that's correct [speaker002:] so there you, you get on the accounts you get a, a er, apparently, income er extension of the scheme budget by nearly four thousand pounds, three, eight, then you go back with what Lord was asking you about and I just want you to explain it if you can, if you can't tell me, as he drew your attention to surplus per audited account at August ninety nineteen one, a hundred and eight, eighty, so that, in fact the year ending nineteen ninety two, along these accounts we're dealing with, in fact the expenditure of exceeded budget by nearly four thousand, the previous year er in nineteen ninety one er it had gone the other way that er [speaker001:] that's is [speaker002:] is that how I understand how it worked [speaker001:] entirely right [speaker002:] so you're talking about, the, the little note at the bottom of nine, of page one, three, four is not dealing with accounts er that relate to nineteen ninety two, which the rest of the three pages are, but dealing with the previous year, is that right? [speaker001:] it's, it's for the previous years accounts, yeah [speaker002:] yes it is [speaker005:] can we just erm clarify that Mr, of course it's dealing with the previous years accounts, but until you get to the end of the previous year are you going to know whether you've over or under est estimated on budget? [speaker001:] no, it's the same situation until you've complete the financial year and you audit the accounts you don't know precisely what the situation is [speaker005:] so if at the bottom of page one, three, four there is the benefit to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, when does that come into consideration in the year ending August nineteen ninety one, or the year ending August nineteen ninety two? [speaker001:] they, they would normally of er received that during the year ending August nineteen ninety two [speaker005:] thank you. We also see on page one, three, four and this is something you also mentioned Mr... that if you've got certain costs they will be covered and you gave a number of examples, one of them you said, er, we were covered by insurance [speaker001:] yes [speaker005:] now we can see that at one, three, four, about a third of the page down, can't we? [speaker001:] yes [speaker005:] now who actually insured the premises that the residence live in [speaker001:] we insurance the premises on behalf of the residence [speaker005:] you insurance them centrally as it were and each resident has to pay part of the insurance cost? [speaker001:] through the service charge, yes [speaker005:] thank you, is that through the service charge or through the management charge? [speaker001:] through the service charge [speaker005:] thank you and we see here that erm one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds had been claimed, that one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds thirteen had been received so the insurance cover had paid [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] you mentioned another protection which is the N H B C, that's, National House Building Council guarantee how long does that run for when a scheme, from the commencement of a scheme? [speaker001:] ten years... [speaker005:] now at the end of the day, whatever your own views about a contingency fund are, bearing in mind that it's service, not management charged, if the residence don't agree can you simply dictate to them that they've got to have a contingency fund? [speaker001:] er, I'd believe in theory we could because the lease provides us or gives us the opportunity to do so, but we would not go against the wishes of the residence [speaker005:] thank you.... Now on the management charge which is what I want to ask you about, cos that's what you've said in the brochure, on the management charge, did you deliberately set the management charge too low to hook the punters? [speaker001:] absolutely not... [speaker005:] shall we just look at one or two erm documents that you've already looked at please, would you go to page twenty nine, just the illustration that seen... and this is the... I'm not sure whether a point is going to be made about this or not, but if you look at page thirty one there... there's a golf club on the left and a man fishing on the right [speaker001:] this is a golf club? [speaker005:] beg your pardon? [speaker001:] it's a golf club? [speaker003:] er, er I'm sorry we haven't had any evidence of that yet [speaker005:] I thought it was suggested that [speaker003:] yes, but he said he never, it was suggested but [speaker005:] oh I'm sorry I asked [speaker003:] Mr has great powers but he can't give evidence on this case [speaker005:] not on this occasion [speaker003:] no [speaker005:] let's assume that Mr is right in the suggestion he put to you about the building on the left, that it's a golf course and we can see for ourselves without any evidence there's a man fishing on the lake at the bottom there, were you trying to suggest that as part of the deal at a lake would be provided or a golf club? [speaker001:] no of course not [speaker003:] well what's the point of the lake?, that's what's been worrying me, I was going to ask Mr what is the punter supposed to see? [speaker005:] what do people do when they retire among other things, by way of amenities? [speaker001:] they play golf and go fishing [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] thank you [] and if you walked around to look at the flat, would you find a lake and whacking big golf course in the middle of it? [speaker001:] no... [speaker005:] now let's erm just go on to something perhaps that's more to the point, you were asked on a number occasions er what information was given and so for and when, er can you see in fact on some of these documents that the brochures are indeed dated?, just look at er please, you can see that it's a printed brochure... it's got a number of er additions and then we look at page thirty seven... boldly state you have that as twenty sixth March eighty five, don't you? [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] are you be able to tell us would that page at twenty six m, eighty five be part of the original brochure or part of something which erm was later brought out?, looking at the type and the print in the brochure, if you can't help us just say [speaker001:] I couldn't be sure on that point [speaker005:] look at erm page forty would you please, this is at... if you look at page forty one there you've got people playing bowls at the top there, maybe another retirement activity and at the bottom of the page forty two it's dated nine eighty five [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] so that indicates print date of September eighty five? [speaker001:] yes [speaker005:] now unfortunately at page forty two there's a sticker originally that says forty two, but just let's look at that shall we?, cos you were asked about what was said to people and what they might know or understand, [reading] while these particulars are prepared with all due care [] and the word that's been stuck over is convenience [reading] while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of intended purchases, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only [] [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] did you know that was in the brochure?, that it was a preliminary guide only? [speaker001:] yes... [speaker005:] and do we find that in fact on the other brochures, for instance at page fifty two, I don't want to go through them all, I'm only giving an example or two, page fifty two there you see, a sticker unfortunately er obscured in part, same words, bottom of fifty two, [reading] while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of the intend purchasers, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only [] [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] now if someone therefore becomes interested in one of the developments, would they be any doubt buying the houses without having a solicitors assistance? [speaker001:] that would be most unusual [speaker005:] and even if they did buy without a solicitors assistance, what was the system about sending them the letter which we've looked at earlier which is at erm D one, five, two, remember this is the letter that goes to Mr solicitors... assuming you get a very rare person who does his or her own conveyance [speaker001:] it would [speaker005:] does that letter still go them? [speaker001:] it would have gone to them and, rather to their solicitor, yes [speaker005:] one of the things at the bottom of one, five, two is the N H B C agreement that you mentioned with Mr [speaker001:] yes [speaker005:] so let's just look again at one, five, three please... you see you were asked about whether or not the brochure would be updated and when it might be updated, in what particulars circumstances, do you remember Mr? [speaker001:] yes I do [speaker005:] shall we just look at er item four on one, five, three, because this is er sent out on the seventeenth of June eighty five, right, see that at page one, five, two, and it says at four [reading] the service charge, the estimated service charge for these flats for the year ending thirty one August eighty five is [] and then the flats are set out there, three hundred and eighty two, five, seven, five and seven, six, four, that's all in respect of because we know this was an flat, we can see that from page one, five, two, but when, whether or not the brochure is updated... when that letter goes out to their solicitors, have you seen other similar letters of this sort going out? [speaker001:] yes it's pretty well a standard letter that goes out [speaker005:] and if you're for instance dealing with a purchaser who's interested in buying around about December... what was the system that you had about saying what the service charges might be?, I mean do you relate to the brochure necessarily or does the [speaker001:] no [speaker005:] letter relate, does the letter relate to the time of purchase? [speaker001:] well the letter would relate to the time of purchase [speaker005:] thank you... and it said there in apportionment, page one, five, three again, [reading] calculated from the date of legal completion to the end of the then current half year, will be collected on completion, please note that these are estimated only and will be retrospectively adjusted when audited accounts are available [] now we've seen the reflection of that in practice this morning haven't we? [speaker001:] correct [speaker005:] on the accounts for [speaker001:] yes... [speaker005:] You were asked whether you told Mr about the solicitors letter... [speaker001:] yes [speaker005:] did he ever ask you about what information was given to solicitors? [speaker001:] no [speaker005:] would there of been any problem at all in your providing it? [speaker001:] none what so ever [speaker005:] would you have been willing to provide it? [speaker001:] yes... [speaker005:] how long was your conversation with Mr? [speaker001:] approximately ten to fifteen minutes [speaker005:] had you had any opportunity to prepare yourself for the sort of questions he might be asking? [speaker001:] no, none [speaker005:] when you offered a meeting which does not seemed to be in dispute, either you're travelling to London or making yourselves available in Corma were you offering a ten minute conversation or were you anticipating that you would be able to deal with any questions he might have? [speaker001:] we were anticipating being able to explain in detail the entire procedure relating to accounting [speaker005:] when you say the entire procedure, would that of included or not a solicitors letter which is set out? [speaker001:] yes it would have done [speaker005:] did he show any interest at all in having those details provided for him? [speaker001:] he, he did not agree to a meeting... [speaker005:] did he give you a reason why not?, did he say why? [speaker001:] because he had a deadline to meet [speaker005:] did he ever explain to you what the urgency of having to have the article in on the following Saturday was?, did he ev, did he ever tell you anything? [speaker001:] er no, not, he didn't explain the urgency... [speaker005:] You spoke about what was said in the brochure that management charges... had been or would be running at about a rate of inflation, we can see it on page fifty six, it's better if you look at it I think, rather than I parrot phrase, see fifty six if you so kind... now see fifty six is talking about... at Broadstone... [reading] will the management charges greatly increase [] the answer is no... [reading] management service, er, sorry has appointed U K leading management specialist for several reasons, firstly because of their professional caring attitude, secondly because time has shown that management charges, rises the rate either slightly below or at the levelled inflation [] when that brochure was produced in respect of that development was that statement true or was it not? [speaker001:] it was true... [speaker005:] you were asked a few questions about the contingency fund, was setting up the contingency fund, had it got any connection at all with the Daily Telegraph article? [speaker001:] none what so ever [speaker005:] the Daily Telegraph article comes out in January eighty eight, was the updating or the answering of the brochures periodically anything to do with the Daily Telegraph article? [speaker001:] it was not [speaker005:] had the updating gone on at all before the Daily Telegraph article came out?... which is in nineteen eighty eight [speaker001:] yes... [speaker005:] did Mr ask you any of the questions about updating or the historical pattern that had been shown by management charges? [speaker001:] no... [speaker005:] was there any discussion about the difference between the service charges and the management charge?... [speaker001:] not at that time I recall... [speaker005:] When you're dealing with people who may want to buy retirement homes, er how do you describe them?, they've been described by Mr as the punters you see, how'd you, what do you call them? [speaker001:] precedence, or prospective purchasers at the time [speaker005:] is that the way that treated people?, calling it hooking the punters? [speaker001:] not at all, they were customers [speaker005:] have you ever heard the word or the phrase hooking the punters, either at or or? [speaker001:] never... [speaker005:] if somebody comes as a resident to one of the developments that you now presently run... are they there normally for years or for months? [speaker001:] they're normally there for years... [speaker005:] if they're normally there for years, is there any purpose at all in trying to deceive them before they go and live there? [speaker001:] there wouldn't seem to be any purpose it, wouldn't be right [speaker002:] my Lord how that under my cross examination I don't know, I've never suggested that he was trying to deceive any resident [speaker003:] no, I, there's get, a little confusion coming into this case I think, I'm not blaming anybody, as I understand your case Mr as put to er as put to Mr, you have expressly disavowed any suggestion to this witness that there was any deliberate attempt to deceive any prospective purchaser [speaker002:] that is correct [speaker003:] what you, your case is as I understand it, I've only intervened cos I think the question didn't dis perhaps a lack of understanding this by Lord allow me to say so, what you're saying is that erm, in fact, although not intentionally you're prepared to accept the format of the brochure in relation to the on going charges... was such as could reasonably be said by your newspaper to have mislead prospective purchasers [speaker002:] that is so [speaker003:] that is the point of the case [speaker002:] and [speaker003:] now the avoidance of doubt, when you've got to another aspect of the case quite different, namely the claim for special damages, you were suggesting to Mr that there, there was a deliberate attempt to and after all whereas you might not like my er use of the to swing on to the Daily Telegraph [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] er the costs which would have been paid in any event that's all the case is [speaker002:] your Lord, your Lordship's got it absolutely right [speaker005:] I, I understand that my Lord, I [speaker003:] yes but you were, forgive me Lord you were asking him about deliberate er deceit or there wouldn't be any point in deliberately, get the exact word, misleading the prospective purchaser [speaker005:] of course because that's the way that the plaintiff's claim has and, and, and that's why [speaker003:] oh yes I understand it [speaker005:] and that's why it's A, sorry, that's why it's A relevant and B important [speaker003:] right, well, I'm, I'm not worried about the point as to whether it arise out of cross examination, I seldom am because there is always erm can be an opportunity for further cross examination if the other party wants to, so er on the grounds of the objection I, I, I don't uphold it you can ask that if you like, but er I do want the jury always to keep their eye on that what really is the issue in the case er certainly from the defendants point of view, I know what you say [speaker005:] but, erm the issue from the plaintiffs point of view of course is erm just [speaker003:] well you say the article meant that your clients were being accused of deliberate deceit [speaker005:] certainly [speaker003:] and in the end the jury will have to say which of the two versions of the meaning they except [speaker005:] and thereafter decide whether or not the meaning is made out [speaker003:] correct, good, now, so ask your, do ask your question [speaker005:] my Lord I've asked it and the witness has answered in fact [speaker003:] oh, good, huh, I assumed the answer was no [speaker005:] it was [speaker003:] I was listening to Mr, yes, thank you [speaker005:] yes, thank you Mr would you step down please [speaker001:] thank you [speaker003:] er one that occurs to me, no, no speaking on it myself, the jury might be interested, sometime I just like to get a feel of what a brochure looks like, not divided as it obviously has to be here, could, could we see a couple sometime, not, not now [speaker001:] yes [speaker003:] and then the jury, I can pass them to the jury, now then, sorry [speaker005:] no, no, my Lord I have three applications to make in the light of the evidence given by Mr yesterday and this witness today, er the first is this in terms of this witnesses evidence, I don't know whether your Lordship appreciated it, but I certainly did in terms of evidence, that in cases of some brochures there were a number of editions, in other words first, second and maybe third edition [speaker003:] well certainly I believe Mr he, I don't think he went into the same detail as Mr I, but Mr certainly left me the impression that some at least of the brochures were, went into more than one addition, yes [speaker005:] er, my Lord there has not been disclosed by the plaintiffs anything more than one copy of the brochure for each site we've got in the my Lord might I therefore formally call for disclosures of each addition of the brochures that the jury have them [speaker003:] well erm you can't no doubt do that at this moment, but I, I think it's as Mr undoubtedly said, quite apart from anything Mr said er, if there are a several addition er which strangest with the relation to the er... important part from our point of view, or an important part mainly these residence on going charges, that sounds reasonable [speaker005:] good, er I think that's right, in fact erm a large number of brochures were in fact on our list of documents [speaker003:] yes [speaker005:] erm disclosed erm... there are dates on some of them as I established [speaker003:] yes [speaker005:] in evidence [speaker003:] well could that be further looked into [speaker005:] oh certainly [speaker003:] and any [speaker005:] any copies of that [speaker003:] any suggestion because I think the jury would be interested particularly with the dates on them, but even if there aren't compare the figures in different editions [speaker005:] certainly, and my Lord my problem is I'd liked to see them before I cross-examine Mr the er, the next witness cos he, he was the the officer in charge of brochures, er I don't know whether the defendants can get, the plaintiffs can get them before but er, I mention it now, the second application my Lord, er your Lordship recalls that Mr evidence is at a meeting of, he brought up his concerns about the accuracy of the inflation sentence in the brochure and a board meeting in, no board meeting to that effect has been disclosed [speaker003:] no minutes you mean [speaker005:] no minute... and I call for and ask your Lordship to order the production of any board minute meeting recording that concern of Mr [speaker003:] yeah [speaker005:] and more for completion the third application is this, yesterday Mr referred in his evidence [speaker003:] not yesterday [speaker005:] I beg your pardon, the last time before [speaker003:] yes, the day before yesterday [speaker005:] the day before, er Mr referred to in his evidence, you may remember to a company called [speaker003:] mm [speaker005:] the employer... and I asked him what documents they produced, what report they produced we have written a letter about it, but I formally call for any report or document from and the second thing he mentioned were letters from about twelve members of parliament that they received [speaker003:] well I think he did say those ought to be in their file [speaker005:] my Lord [speaker003:] he said that, that they should be [speaker005:] but I, I, I call [speaker003:] yeah [speaker005:] for production of those letters from the twelve members of parliament [speaker003:] Lord you can't deal with that er at the snap of the fingers obviously, but I think you'd agree that er going from the number three upwards that if there is any reports from management er and if the letters from the members of parliament still exist in your clients file, they would be disclosable [speaker002:] well my Lord I, I simply don't know, erm [speaker003:] er no, if they don't exist so be it [speaker002:] I simply, I simply can't deal with the question because some of these are, are raised now for the first time [speaker005:] no I'm not, I'm sorry I said some of them are raised now for the first time, I was about to say I'm not complaining I'm simply pointing out, standing here without the instructions I can't deal with the matter [speaker003:] no, of course you can't now, but will you have enquiries made and if er, there are an existence of twelve members of parliament ledgers, any report from crisis management and any erm, any er, er minute of a board meeting er at er directors at which the contingency... er, at the contingency fund was discussed or recor any recording of value, having enquiries make sure that they exist and then tell me er if, if, if you're prepared to disclose them [speaker002:] my Lord sir [speaker003:] that's all [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] I don't expect you to do it before Monday anyway [speaker002:] no, no, my Lord of course I do [speaker003:] yes, I didn't think you'd make any objection at all cos [speaker002:] no I'm not [speaker003:] I'm not suggesting for a moment it doesn't cross my mind nor has Mr suggested that there has been any er deliberate failures to disclose something which was thought was, which you've got and was thought relevant, but it, things do turn out to be potentially relevant in the course of the court appearance [speaker002:] well I I'm happy to have those enquiries there [speaker003:] thank you, well you know the three categories, now what about erm, er, I'm very anxious to proceed today as far as we can, what about Mr er remind me erm reading with two and three er I'm afraid I've forgotten exactly what you, oh I know you wanted to know Mr, er before cross examine Mr you want to know about all the additions of the various brochures, is that right? [speaker002:] my Lord the officer is he's the wonderful from who is closest to the brochures and therefore [speaker003:] mm [speaker002:] responsible for er, I never realized until the witness gave evidence, the last witness that there were different additions [speaker003:] oh well I, I think it did, it did emerge but not so clearly, but it did emerge in Mr evidence [speaker002:] my Lord be that as it may, if there are one, two or three additions of the same brochures, of the same development, clearly we, we should be entitled to [speaker003:] oh [speaker002:] all that's been disclosed is one as far as I know, erm your Lordship can see that I at some stage need to have a look at them, er before I complete in any way so I can cross examine Mr er my Lord may I just say this, on the seventeenth of November, that's two days ago, we asked for the documents of the necessary twelve M P's two days ago [speaker003:] yes, but, er [speaker002:] I'm not complaining about it, but I say I didn't raise it for the first time [speaker003:] no, well, some of them might have been, don't do squabble about that [speaker002:] no, no, my Lord I have raised for the first time the board minute [speaker003:] yes [speaker002:] er my Lord it wasn't, I wasn't raising it for the purpose of your Lordship mentioned, er namely er... er about er contingency fund, though indeed will be entitled to that, I raised a question of the minute, the board minute, to do with the concerned with Mr rest of the meeting about the placement [speaker003:] mm [speaker002:] that's why I was asking them for, I just want to make it plain my Lord [speaker003:] thank you [speaker002:] but my Lord that subject to that er I don't think we'll loose time because I'm sure by the time Lord has examined er Mr I'm going to reserve a little bit of cross examination, which is Monday [speaker003:] mm, mm in any event members of the jury I, I forgot to mention to you earlier, er, thank you Mr you probably feel a wisdom of this having done several days of this case, two and a half hours is just about as long as anybody can be expected to sit and listen to evidence and er, what I was going to do, and I hope it doesn't inconvenience anybody, I was going, instead of going on for three hours till one o'clock, I was gonna break off about half past twelve to about half past one, to break up the day as you know, I hope that's alright, so what we'll do we'll go on now and, and I'm sure, I think it's doubtful if you would have got to that point by half past twelve, and then you and Lord sort it out and your learned duties as much as you can in the adjournment and then tell me afterwards what the brochure position is, I'm sure you've no objection to disclosing any brochures that you've got that erm, or can get er which relate to that point [speaker002:] a lot of brochures have been disclosed [speaker003:] yes [speaker002:] difference that... for instance erm there were four house brochures [speaker003:] there you are [speaker002:] they've, they've been disclosed, it's eight, nine and ten [speaker003:] they may they may have been in your list of documents, but copies of them may or may not of been handed over but [speaker002:] simply don't know [speaker003:] well could you try and sort that out [speaker002:] of course [speaker003:] when we have a break, preferably midday, alright so, I don't want to ask you to alter your chosen order of witnesses you see, er but equally we want to get on if we can [speaker002:] oh entirely [speaker003:] I know, I must see, you think or Mr can go on, right let's have Mr [speaker002:] Mr [speaker003:] and get as far as we can and break off about half past twelve for an hour... [speaker002:] Could you hold the book in your right hand [speaker003:] Just a minute, no, no, please just while those people, just the wrong moment to leave court, they should never yes, try again [speaker002:] hold the book in your right hand and repeat the oath after the I swear by almighty god [speaker006:] I swear by almighty god [speaker002:] that the evidence I shall give [speaker006:] that the evidence I shall give [speaker002:] shall be the truth [speaker006:] shall be the truth [speaker002:] the whole truth [speaker006:] the whole truth [speaker002:] and nothing but the truth [speaker006:] and nothing but the truth [speaker003:] thank you [speaker002:] Mr [speaker003:] take a seat [speaker002:] would you keep your voice up also please [speaker006:] certainly [speaker002:] towards the jury, thank you. What's your full name and your address please? [speaker006:] Kevin erm [speaker002:] is that in Dorset? [speaker006:] that is, yes [speaker002:] how old are you now? [speaker006:] forty three [speaker002:] what's your present occupation? [speaker006:] I'm a self employed marketing consultant... [speaker002:] just a little about your background please, I think you went to Dundee Polytechnic [speaker006:] yes [speaker002:] did you er obtain a Diploma in marketing in nineteen seventy five there? [speaker006:] not there it was at er another college [speaker002:] which was? thank you... I think you're a fellow at the institute of marketing [speaker006:] that's correct [speaker002:] and er you have on occasions, at various times, lectured on marketing at various institutes of education including Bournemouth university [speaker006:] that is correct, I am currently doing that as well [speaker002:] thank you.... When did you first become connected with any organization in the group? [speaker006:] nineteen eighty four... [speaker002:] which company did you go and work for? [speaker006:] in nineteen eighty four there, there was only the one company they hadn't divisionalized, so I joined er company in nineteen eighty four [speaker002:] what as? [speaker006:] er a group marketing manager... [speaker002:] did you stay in that position or do you erm change? [speaker006:] in nineteen eighty six I think it was the company divisionalized and I was promoted to sales and marketing director of the erm, I think it was the developments division, which was, was the retirement housing division [speaker002:] so that's [speaker006:] that's correct... [speaker002:] in er nineteen ninety one... did you become marketing sales director for the whole group and a main board director? [speaker006:] that is correct... [speaker002:] now in nineteen eighty seven, what did your job involve? [speaker006:] well as a divisional sales and marketing director I had two particular jobs, one would be erm in developing if you want the alteration of sales and marketing and the other one would be looking at overall strategic in sales and marketing... [speaker002:] did you have people working under you? [speaker006:] I had at that time, and I'm trying to recall probably two or three people working directly for me, yes... [speaker002:] Mr told us about regional offices, about how many of those were there in nineteen eighty seven? [speaker006:] I think at that time there were seven regional offices [speaker002:] would they also fall under your general control? [speaker006:] no, not directly, each regional office would have a regional M D, managing director, who would actually be on the board, the divisional board with me, each regional M D would then have his own regional board on which there would be er finance er finance director, sales and marketing director, construction director, land director, not all of them, all seven had that board immediately, some developed that board, grew that board over a couple of years... [speaker002:] apart from being marketing director for developments, er did you also deal with marketing of other aspects of the group? [speaker006:] well not directly, erm because the whole purpose of the divisionalization was to put the skill and expertise into each division, at the initial stage of erm divisionalization there were no other marketing people immediately in those other divisions, I was occasionally called on to assist but progressively as they built up there own marketing expertise then my needs were less, they needed me less. [speaker002:] in nineteen eighty seven were you familiar with the advertising budget and the advertising spend of and? [speaker006:] yeah... [speaker002:] prior to the Daily Telegraph article in January nineteen eighty eight, had or or had they been in the habit of spending large amounts of money on national publicity? [speaker006:] most definitely not [speaker002:] Mr er I think I saw a smile there, why were you smiling? [speaker006:] because part of the reason why were very successful and profitable was because they're very cagey on money we spend and on, on the resources erm, they had been advertising but it was on a very small limited regional budget, national advertising is actually, they'd of been a or too [speaker002:] what was Mr attitude to spending on national advertising in so far as you could work it out? [speaker006:] we didn't think it was necessary and not necessary at that time, we were success advertising regionally.... [speaker002:] Er, were you familiar with the brochures that were distributed? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] who's responsibility was the contents of the brochures? [speaker006:] well there was two parts to the brochure, erm, the, there was the general part within the brochure about eighty percent of the brochure was general for every development, the other twenty percent which would prefer specifically to that development, so there was a corporate field to the brochure, but for each development it would have it's individual flavour, that would show pictures of the locality for example, hence the golf and the erm lake and the erm specific costs of running that, that responsibility would be the responsibility then of the region putting in, cos obviously at the centre I wouldn't know whether there was a golf course in that area or not. [speaker002:] er, could you have erm the, agreed in front of you please and just look at C thirty... that's erm you can see the golf club in this one, at er the page thirty one and the man sitting on the lake at the top of thirty one, yes, I think we know the brochures, we've got erm leisure pursuits like bowls, that sort of thing.... Who would actually draw up the wording of the brochure? [speaker006:] The wording referring to the specific location in the location description would by definition have to be drawn up the region, cos they would have intimate knowledge of the locality... that er sorry and the costs would be drawn up by the region because they would know as I say intimately they would know that specific development... [speaker002:] would you er still look at page thirty one please... dealing with er, top right under the [reading] are there hidden costs?, the answer to this is definitely no [] and then there are charges set out there, there's the freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low... there's a freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low, small charge for using guest bedroom, use to keep the general running costs as low as possible, and then underneath them there's a block [reading] service apartment costs, all maintenance, warden and management services, freehold security [] and then personal costs in an estimated weekly total, er did you know that that went into the brochure? [speaker006:] yes [speaker002:] Could you look also please at page fifty six in the same tag... which is home which was forty nine, it carries on to fifty six, we can see there you've got the same thing but you've got a drawing there and not a photograph of something that's in the area, Court Castle in Dorset [speaker006:] I see [speaker002:] [reading] will the management charges greatly increase [] page fifty six, the answer is no and then we've read this several times, did you know that was in the brochure? [speaker006:] that photograph, yes... [speaker002:] one of the things said there is, [reading] time has shown the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or at the level of inflation, a fine record not easily beaten [] what, what do you say about whether or not that was accurate in nineteen eighty five for instance? [speaker006:] it wouldn't of been put in if it hadn't been accurate... at the time... [speaker002:] now reverting again please if you would to the one we first looked at which is er, see the costs set out on page thirty one there... and we can see under personal costs with the star that refers [reading] please note that these charges are an average and depend on personal electricity consumption and are subject to verification and local authority assessment [], er did you understand the difference between the management charge and the service charge? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] can you ever control the service charge component to make it level with inflation as opposed to the management charges?... [speaker006:] no I would have said no [speaker002:] thank you.... Did you yourself come to know about the article in the Telegraph? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] prior to that article January eighty eight, was it being your personal desire for about whether or not in the year nineteen eighty seven going into the nineteen eighty eight or to have national or wider advertising, your personal view [speaker006:] my personal view was that [clears throat] we, we should have some form of, two things, one is communicating the realities of the situation, it's a fairly new market, there was a lot of competitors in the market, coming into the market, there was a lot of confusion in the market there was a lot of confusion in the market as to exactly what it was that customer could buy, there was also a lot of confusion of as to, cos there are different types of customer, and over sixty five, there are about seven different categories, there was a need for someone and I believe it should therefore have been the market leader at that time to if you want to establish principals, establish what they, this was in the market and establish what the elderly would be, would, should look for when purchasing a retirement apartment. [speaker002:] and what was your desire in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article, about increasing on spending advertising, keeping it the same or decreasing? [speaker006:] well I, I wanted therefore to put take project into the national press and to promote the product, given that that was the larger product in the market place and therefore if you want that would set the standards for the rest of the market place, that's what I, I felt we needed to do that with the increasing number of competitors moving into market place [speaker002:] but in nineteen eighty seven that expansion of advertising and therefore ad advertising costs in what were you thinking of in terms of roughly in nineteen eighty seven? [speaker006:] oh I can't, I can't remember, sorry [speaker002:] are we talking about tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or what? [speaker006:] if it was the national advertising campaign and knowing and er basically then, I wouldn't of thought I'd be talking anything above a hundred thousand, I would and, and I can't remember the exact figure but given [speaker002:] no I understand [speaker006:] the situation I wouldn't of thought I could of got away with anything much more than that [speaker002:] did you propose in nineteen eighty seven as an increase advertising spend [speaker006:] in specific terms I can't remember, I would have certainly of said that for the year er nineteen eighty eight we should build into our budget an amount, what that amount was I can't remember, but er that was, that was never given the go ahead [speaker002:] how was it dealt with internally?, I mean you have the idea, you want to expand advertising, which means you've got to spend more money and you said it was never given the go ahead, who at the end of the day would decide about whether it had the go ahead or not? [speaker006:] well the board would [speaker002:] which board? [speaker006:] er, first of all I would put it to my divisional board to my colleagues to ask for their thoughts and their advice erm, if they rejected it then it wouldn't go any further, if they approved it then it, because it was a budgetary item rather than just we can go out and spend it tomorrow, it was going into the following years budget, it would then go to the P L C board and they would have final say in whether that element should go into the, into next years budget [speaker002:] and who is chairman of the board, who had the final say? [speaker006:] John [speaker002:] so that was not given the go ahead in nineteen eighty seven [speaker006:] that's correct [speaker002:] I therefore need to ask you about the article and what happened subsequently. Now you saw the article? [speaker006:] yes [speaker002:] it came out on a Saturday, do you remember where you saw it? [speaker006:] yes, I was on a coach to the boat show erm at Earls Court when, when I read it [speaker002:] was it on the day of publication? [speaker006:] I think it must of been, it had to be on a Saturday I believe [speaker002:] yes [speaker006:] yes, that would have been the day of publication [speaker002:] now we already know that there was a meeting which was called fairly promptly for the Monday of the following week which would have been the eleventh, did you attend that meeting? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] Mr has told us there were well over twenty people there... was the article discussed then? [speaker006:] that was the purpose of the meeting... [speaker002:] did you yourself have to do anything follow the art following the article? [speaker006:] following the article or following the meeting?, that meeting [speaker002:] you're quite right following that meeting which was after the article [speaker006:] I'm not sure there were too many decisions actually made at that meeting [speaker002:] why was that? [speaker006:] because at that meeting you can imagine that twenty people gathering then you end up not really making any decisions, far too many people, there was a lot discussed and aired and it concerns expressed and it was a case, and I'm going from recollection here, it was really a case of let's go away and think about it and calm down and look at it rationally [speaker002:] er, we've already seen a press release which was put out as prompt step, what was your own view about what should be done after the Daily Telegraph article and it's comments about? [speaker006:] well I think that, that the, the sending out of the press release immediately was, was quite correct, because obviously people had ride that, sorry people may have read that and something therefore had to be said, my personal view was that really this article is you had, if you like had undone everything that we had been trying to do, erm and put us in a bad light and it maybe my Scottish background, but I don't like people calling in to question my motives and the companies motives, erm and I felt that it went straight to what we were really standing for, given what I explained about my thoughts in nineteen eighty seven, it was hitting straight to the core of the whole proposition and everything that stood for, erm and that is what was the great concern and because it wasn't just like a, a mild slap in the face it was more like a knife in the ribs, it was therefore required a lot more thinking about as to the reaction that we would then have to come up with. [speaker002:] Did you yourself give thought to the action that you thought would be required? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] what conclusion did you come to? [speaker006:] oh I came, came to several conclusions, erm, one, one of the problems that the article faced me with, if it had been a simple outburst, if, if the, the Daily Telegraph had simply taken an advert out as opposed to maybe editorials then I may of had less a problem, because the problem with editorials is that they are believed, companies adverts aren't believed, well they're partially believed, but an editorial carries a lot more weight... and therefore when it's written like that it tends to strike home much harder, therefore that, my immediate thoughts were that if were going to react, if we were going to find a way of cantering the problems we felt this had created, then we would not have to follow any normal course of action, we simply couldn't put an advert out because nobody would have believed it, we would have to look at it a different way of actually cantering and that's part of the reason for the time taking to think it through. [speaker002:] Would you please go to tag L... two, six, six to begin with... just to lead you into the chronology, you have told us that in August nineteen eighty seven, er there was really no interest in national budgeting, er national advertising budget, we can see this is a memorandum from you Kevin dated the fourth of August and you're sending out to the regional marketing executives, there's no national advertising next year which would be eighty eight. Again marketing budget at two, six, seven, the point made there again, numbered item one in the bottom third [reading] no national advertising [] and then two sixty eight, this is a meeting of the twenty fifth of February nineteen eighty eight, present including Mr and yourself... [reading] today I send [] that's Mr [reading] pointed out that so far our reaction to the recent media criticism had been totally defensive in future these actions to be defended, but then attacked in order to regain our credibility [] were you indeed present at that meeting of the twenty fifth of erm February? [speaker006:] yes... [speaker002:] in February had your own thoughts begun to cristalize about what needed to be done in response to the article? [speaker006:] yes [speaker002:] what had your thoughts sir cristalize as? [speaker006:] well my thoughts had cristalized that we would have to change the direction of er, we communicating with them as we've done in the past, we couldn't just use adverts that we might have used regional in a regional press, we had to pick out the point, in the, in the actual article so that four example there were six or seven points that had clearly been made, statements that had been made, I had to devise a scheme then, er, it was only a scheme in my thinking that actually, I had to devise a scheme that would pick up each of these points encounter them, now there was no way I could simply take an advert out and say, they said this, we say that because that would have had no credibility, so what I was thinking at that time is how we might be able to use some other form of being able to counter those six or seven points and I started to come up with an idea perhaps using a third party, because in our business, third party recommendation are very, very powerful and when selling to the elderly because they do not take, I'm sorry, they take a long time to come to a decision, they mull over it and such like, they take a lot of influence from people, take advise from family, accountants, solicitors, bank managers and such like, so the idea of having a third party in a sense recommend then would have allowed us to get over those particular points, so that's what was germinating in my mind at the time [speaker002:] and is that the thinking that lies behind the eventual... getting of Terry Wogan and Angela Rippon? [speaker006:] that is correct [speaker002:] that's in an interview format isn't it? in the [speaker006:] yes [speaker002:] advertisement, and do they actually sit down in an interview or is that simply the way that the advertisement is projected [speaker006:] well what in actual fact happened, it's not easy to get Terry Wogan at a moments notice to come and sit down, what in actual fact happens is that we draw up exactly what it is, that, that he would be saying and what the answer will be, he sees that and it's totally approved, understandably he's not gonna put his name to anything that he doesn't believe is, is correct and that is how it's done and [speaker003:] I understood though I mean it, it looks from many of these er publications as though it's meant to convey that Mr and Mr Wogan are sitting down and having a conversation or Ms Rippon isn't it?, that's how it's presented, is that right? [speaker006:] yes [speaker003:] but it didn't, but, that isn't actually, that isn't what happened you're saying now [speaker006:] it's meant to show that Terry Wogan is asking John a question and John is answering the question [speaker003:] sorry I don't want to take, erm of course out of hand

[speaker001:] Colin Cook, National Adult School Organisation. Monday the thirty-first of January, nineteen ninety four. This is then our meeting on Monday afternoon, the thirty-first of January at Claredon Park Adults School. The the topic that we said we would investigate today, comes from the hand-book. Er, it's page sixty-one and it's it's title is: Scientific Research, the Whole Truth, er and if you like I will draw the points out of the study and leave you to comment where there questions and where there aren't any questions to interject any comments that you feel appropriate. Er, let's remember that it is a study that is, to start us talking, and I'm sure we'll have no difficulty in finding some comments as we go through them. In the course of a life-time, so many facts and sense inhibitions impinge upon our minds, that our brains have become selective, and we're unconscious of much of this happening around us. In fact, we almost inhabit different words from other people, as our tastes and our interests differ so much. And we start off very soon then, with a question, In what ways do you find yourself selective. Which sounds, sights, or even events you block out from your mind, and to which, are you particularly sensitive. You're sensitive to the clicking of heels on the stairs, Mary, I know that, aren't you? [Colin:] I shall not forget that one. Yeah. [speaker001:] I suppose the thing a lot of us block out of our minds, is when you're out, is traffic noise, isn't it. [Colin:] Traffic noise. [speaker001:] You try to block this out don't you. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] People walking above me, [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Ah, right, are you, are you [speaker001:] Oh. [Colin:] particularly conscious of that. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yes, definitely. [Colin:] Well, that's something you'd like to block out from your mind. [speaker001:] I would. [Colin:] But you can't. [speaker001:] Definitely. [Colin:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] And of course, now you're with noisy music. Mm. [Colin:] Yeah, music, music, music. [speaker001:] American accents. [Colin:] American accents, ah, yes, yes, you'd like to block those out, would you? [speaker001:] Oh I, Oh I, like those, they're friendly. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Yeah. Mm. Interesting that, very interesting. [speaker001:] Yeah, [Colin:] Erm, I I think I'd block out, erm, traffic noises, to some extent, because we live [speaker001:] Aye, you would then. [Colin:] And erm, if I were to stop every time I heard a car go by, I'd be stopping all the time, erm, to some extent, it becomes a part of your pattern of existence. [speaker001:] Oh, it does, yes. [Colin:] And I tell you anoth another thing that I find that I blocked out from my mind sometimes, that's the sound of central heating, particularly fan assisted heating. It isn't here. [speaker001:] When it switches on and off. [Colin:] Here here is quiet. But in some buildings, you find that there is a constant fan noise. [speaker001:] Yes, that's true, yes. Yeah. [Colin:] And we it, we become so used to it, that we we exclude from our minds, we don't think of it. And the same was true, with as you said, the fridge. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] Fridge is going, so you, they always have the whirring in the background, isn't there. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [Colin:] Because... [speaker001:] It isn't until you make a conscious effort to listen, you realise how much noise you are subject to in this modern world, do you really, it's true. When you make a point of try to listen to the world, Mm. It's surprising how much noise we are... er subject to. [Colin:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] You say sound of fridges, traffic... [Colin:] And I think we we have grown up to be a noisy... [speaker001:] Oh yeah. Oh yes. [Colin:] race. Perhaps noisy people generally speaking, the television is on, or the radio is on, or the record player is on, or the cassette player is on. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Colin:] Almost any house you go into, there is something goin, there is something on. [speaker001:] I think we are a rarity, aren't we, Must be. 'cos in the morning there's, there's no radio on. We very rarely have the radio on, except we have the radio on at breakfast time, listen to the news and the weather forecast. Yeah, I do. But, then the radio doesn't go again, on again all day. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] And our T V's never on in the morning. [Colin:] No, no. [speaker001:] Do you, do you. Er, so we'll probably an exception to the rule. [Colin:] Rolf. [Rolf:] The difficulty of this is, to have the telly on, and don't switch it off. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that, that, that is, that's almost an insult, isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes, it is. Why did you come. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Yes, yes indeed. Erm, at least if they turned the sound off. [speaker001:] Down. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Turned the sound down. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] oh right. [Colin:] Well, I think sometimes, I, at at home, erm, if I'm, particularly if I'm typing, I like music, and if the phone goes, people must wonder what on earth it is, because there's music going on somewhere, which they obviously can hear in the background, but I like, I like that as a background. [speaker001:] Oh, yes when you're tired, yeah. [Colin:] And I'm using that in order to select. I choose the music I want to listen to. Rather than hear the sounds outside. [speaker001:] Must be soothing, yes. [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. So it's the music, music is my choice, and I'm using that, if you like as a barrier, as a screen er against the outside world. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Let's have a look at the next question. Erm, what are the ways, do you think, in which a scientist sees things differently from a poet or an artist, and are there ways in which they think alike... How does a scientist see things differently from, either a poet or an artist. [speaker001:] Well he's way above, in a world of his own, isn't he, really. [Colin:] The scientist. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Cut off from civilisation, I think. Yeah, yeah. realistic. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Rolf. [Rolf:] as a scientist works so much on his own, in his own little castle. [Colin:] Mm. [Rolf:] Where as er, poet or an artist has the publicity, if that's the right word [speaker001:] Mm. [Rolf:] In mind. [Colin:] Mm. Yes, [speaker001:] Yes, he has people round him, doesn't he. Whereas a scientist hasn't. [Colin:] Mm... I cer certainly think that's that's that's one way of looking at it, but wh wha what about if if you were take a beautiful scene, the sky on Saturday evening was beautiful. [speaker001:] Yes, it was. [Colin:] I looked at that, and I'm not a scientist, and my thought was beauty, colour, contrast, erm, I thought I wish I could paint. If I were a scientist, perhaps I'd be looking at it, and say, what does that mean in terms of weather, what does it mean in terms of pressure, is it cumulus cloud or says, what other cloud. The the the difference is perhaps that the scientist will analyse... [speaker001:] Yeah, whereas we don't. [Colin:] We don't. [speaker001:] We don't, just generalise. [Colin:] Yes, generalise, yes, perhaps that's the, yes, particular as opposed to general. [speaker001:] Saturday night, I thought was the old saying, red sky at night, shepherds delight, [LAUGHTER] old saying, you know [] [Colin:] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes indeed. [speaker001:] There's an excellent example in the [Colin:] Erm, but if it's... I don't know anything about the weather, so I couldn't look at that and analyse it in any way. I just had to say that is beautiful... and I wish I had more words to describe it, but I haven't yet. Er, a scientist then, is often caricatured as an absent minded professor. So occupied with abstruse ideas, that he is incapable of coping with every day activities. Perhaps your thoughts go to the crazy inventor, surrounded by improbable pieces of machinery and electric sparks, or to Newton, sitting in an orchard, or to an efficient white- coated scientist. How much true do you think there is in the picture of a scientist as highly intelligent, completely amoral and withdrawn from the world. It's like... well, it's it's it's a generalisation anyway, isn't it? Erm. [speaker001:] I think there's supposedly, a lot of truth in it, really is there. I suppose there are, odd ones. [Colin:] Yeah, I can,th they... [speaker001:] What puzzles me is that er, erm... much, much of these bright new people, all seem to dress in such a, a despicable fashion, don't they, all sort of be, dressed and scruffy and er, and er whether they they're so busy with [Colin:] Yes, that that that could be a possibility. [speaker001:] I wonder how many things er break in life, would be saved, you know, never look [Colin:] It's it's a question of priorities, isn't it, the, perhaps people feel the way that I dress is not important, the work that I do and the discoveries that I make, those are the important things. [speaker001:] Some of our lecturers come on Sunday, you know, they come dressed, fashion in a week, I don't know. [Colin:] Mm, mm. [speaker001:] They just, you know, any old [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] I would agree that the scientist being is probably is constant withdrawal from his because he can't cope with what's going on around him, whilst he is in his scientific research. a model of what he's trying to say and I think, sound forgetful they are... [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] and [Colin:] Mm. Yes, yes. Well, that's, is that is the the picture that you you have, the caricature, as they say, the absent minded professor, erm, [speaker001:] There's something in it. [Colin:] Oh, I think there is something in it, yes. [speaker001:] When they formed the Army Education Corp, during the war, they er, they wore uniform, most of them were warrant officers, and soldiers [LAUGHTER] but in uniform you could come out [] I mean, they been ordinary soldiers, but they'd been put put on a charge every time the saw them, you know. But er, they were, they were, they were soldiers, and they wore uniform, and badges of rank [LAUGHTER] such a scream, and yet some of them were really nice blokes, you know. in particular Sergeant, he was he was an organist and choir master at Yeovil Cathedral in peacetime, and he was music mad. Wonderful man, but completely uniform, he was a proper character, he looked ridiculous every time he walked down the street, you know. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes See it's interesting you should say that, erm, the study on Vaughn Williams, in the last year at Sandborne. Erm, points out that Vaughn Williams was the same, er, that when he was in uniform, he he was scruffy. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] He couldn't conform. He was in the army, and he was, you know, he was pleased do anything, he undertook some very difficult jobs. Er, he was in the ambulance corp, I think in the First World War, but he was a redback. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's what I said to these chaps. [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think again, it's a matter of the way in which your mind takes over and says, it is not important how I dress... and even if I'm in an army uniform, it doesn't matter. [speaker001:] Prides [Colin:] Prides irrelevant yes, yes. Research then, which is really the, erm, the the the type of the whole topic today. The Researcher. Scientific Research is often divided into compartments. Pure research is an attempt to produce a coherent framework of the facts and events occurring in the world around us. It's sometimes thought that this type of research takes place mainly in universities and institutes of higher education. That it advances knowledge, but has no intrinsic practical use. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Applied Research, on the other hand, is thought to produce results which have an immediate application to industry, to technology or to medicine. These results could produce great profits, and are therefore carried out under the aegis of large firms, which hope to benefit from them. It's doubtful whether these distinctions were ever clear, and certainly nowadays, it's realised that pure and applied research goes side by side, within all research organisations. They are both funded by the same bodies. The science research council, industry and philanthropists. However, scientific research is expensive and it's natural that to some extent those who fund it, should expect to see returns and be able to influence its direction. This produces a pressure for results, which may result in reports for discoveries which haven't been fully tested. One recent example of this was when a scientist reported, what was known as cold fusion. That is the fusion of hydrogen atoms in a cold solution. The process normally occurs only at temperatures and pressures comparable with those found at the centre of the sun. If true, this would have been an amazing source of energy. But the experiment proved unrepeatable. And therefore, you begin to question whether it ever really happened in the first place, don't you. Erm, it re, it must, again, be a matter where er a scientist can become very enthusiastic and almost read into the results, what he expects to find there. Anyway the question erm, is, can you think of any ways in which scientists could be relieved of the pressure to get quick results. Should research be concentrated on topics from which an immediate use is seen, or is it possible for those who provide the funds, to take a longer view. [speaker001:] Well, you can't rush a scientist, can you, 'cos he's discovering new things, isn't he. [Colin:] And and sometimes it takes a long time, doesn't it. [speaker001:] Long time, takes years. Yes. Yes. This is always talk talked about. [Colin:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] If er, scientists and his team works on a, or think they are on to a discovery or something that needs researching, can get, the necessary funding, office, or firms that they benefit, say this in the previous paragraph, that's fine, but to concentrate on topics which are I don't think that happens. These things are usually, in my opinion, anyway, er, er the results are often accidents. [Colin:] Yes, yes, I think that... [speaker001:] You suddenly come across something, and, whether it is er, medicine, mostly, or technique think, first of them one stage after another was invented, more or less by accident. [Colin:] Yes, yes, accident plays a large part in it, I'm sure. That erm, very often the discovery of one thing is, perhaps and even unexpected spin-off from pursuing research into another. As a result of such. The Teefal saucepan that you have at home, er came doubtless from scientific research into space travel. [speaker001:] Mm. Oh, that's right, yeah, yeah. [Colin:] The use of silicone coverings came from that, [speaker001:] [cough] [Colin:] certainly. Er, I mean, one of the immediate things, that er, we would like scientists to research, for example, is the common cold. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] It would do us all a lot of good. If they could find a cure for the common cold. [speaker001:] Greatest benefit to mankind. [Colin:] Yes, it, yeah. Now that is something immediate. But it's no good [speaker001:] That's right yeah. [Colin:] putting a couple of scientists into a room and say, Find It. [speaker001:] Well, after the war they had these clinics where people went [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] and volunteers went and got soaked, and sat in cold passages, to try and catch cold, they couldn't catch cold, could they. [Colin:] Yes... yes... yes. No,th th that's that's [speaker001:] trying [Colin:] That has only re recently closed down. forty years. [speaker001:] Yes, only a few years ago. [Colin:] Yes, indeed. [speaker001:] With adverts in the [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, [speaker001:] I was er, I was prepared remember, when I had my bone-graft, I went all prepared, shaved from head to foot wrapped up like a mummy, from my neck to my feet. Mm. Ready for the op on the Saturday, and Friday I st started to sneeze, they took me temperature, I'd got a cold, between, it took us a fortnight and and, for the operation to come through it, common cold. [Colin:] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah [speaker001:] And yet they were gonna take, a bone out and put it put it in my and all sorts of things. [Colin:] So they, they, you see, that that that is in in an instant where it would have been enormously beneficial to have something to prevent the cold, [speaker001:] That would cured it. [Colin:] or cured the cold. [speaker001:] Or prevent the cold, yeah Yes, yes. But a doctor, one of the doctors in the same hospital saying, that the, during the First World War, when they were so desperate, you know, so many casualties, they had to cut short treatment, and they had to bandage men up and leave them bandaged up a long length of, they found it was often better to leave a wound bandaged up in it's own... [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] rather than keep stripping dressings off. [Colin:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] and th they, it was an old Indian treatment, they found it quite, sheer force of circumstances, er, that they discovered it was better sometimes to bind a wound up and leave it alone. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] It healed better that way, than being constantly dressed and... [Colin:] Yes, yes yeah. [speaker001:] It was [Colin:] Yes, but then again, it was it was an incident. [speaker001:] Incidental discovery. Incidental discovery. Yes, incidental, completely by accident. yes. I say most of these things are found by accident. [Colin:] Yes, yes, I'm sure they are. [speaker001:] A lot of it is, anyway. [Colin:] and if it, if it were possible to to forecast absolutely what the result is going to be, er, scientific research would be much easier. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [Colin:] People would be able to say with some, er, degree of certainty, how long the research is going to take, but I think one of the problems at the moment is, you can't always say. [speaker001:] Just don't know. [Colin:] Just how long it's gonna take. It might take months, it might take years, it might never even be possible. [speaker001:] 'Cos I think another thing, where a lot of pressure comes on scientists, is where, it says a lot of cases, where profit is in the offing, this is a thing, [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] we wanted to get people chemical, wanted to get a thing through, so they could make a profit from it. I think that's where a lot of the pressure comes in now, I should think, on scientists. [Colin:] Oh yes, yes I'm sure it is. And this is particularly true, you you mentioned medicines and drugs. I think this is particularly true, medicine [speaker001:] That's what I was thinking of, actually, in the medical [Colin:] Erm, I I heard something over the weekend, that that erm, mentioned er an American drug company, that has come up with whatever drug and it's moved from being a million pound concern, into a multi-million pound concern, because of these discoveries, [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] Er, now it's a very good company, it's not a British company. It's a great pity it's not a British company, because it's it's would be a great source of revenue in this country. Er, but that, there must have been enormous pressure on the scientist working in those great laboratories [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [Colin:] to come up with er, a solution for whatever it was they were they were going into. Yes, er must must be enormous pressure exercised there. I don't think I'd like to work under that pressure. [speaker001:] 'Cos I wonder whether it's that sort of pressure that caused some of these drugs to come out which caused thalidomide which drops to mind, thalidomide, whether that was pressure through, you know to the damage that did, you see. [Colin:] Yes, yes, mm yes. [speaker001:] whether that was in, under pressure. [Colin:] It has to be, it has to be rushed through. [speaker001:] You can hardly try them on humans, that the the of these, I mean. Must be a risk, they must know there is a risk, mustn't they. Oh, yes. [Colin:] Oh, yes, they they obviously go through a stage of trying to make sure that erm, theoretically it is correct, and then they do er conduct some experiments on animals, and you know, that that again is a question, erm [speaker001:] Ethical the choice is wrong, I mean, some drugs suit some people, and not others. [Colin:] Yeah, yes, but there there's gotta come a time when they have to test it on human beings. [speaker001:] Human beings. Human beings. yes. [Colin:] I mean, the the one that's, I suppose talked about a lot nowadays is A I D S, and there are some drugs, that have, will not cure A I D S, but will slow down, not the progression, but the regression that takes place with A I D S [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right. [Colin:] And erm, they they they must try them on human beings, and I'm sure there are some people who are quite prepared to these tried. [speaker001:] To try them. 'Cos there must be a great deal of pressure on the scientific erm er, problem was there and try and find [Colin:] Certainly, yes, yes, yeah. That that again, if you if you were able to say that's gonna happen, that will that will that must be given priority, but there's no guarantee they can find it. [speaker001:] No, no. no. [Colin:] However many you get, and however long they work, there's no guarantee they'll come up with a solution at the end. [phone rings] [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] Telephone, well, it's not for us, no. Scientific research is usually carried out by a team of scientists, often from several disciplines who work together, each of whom contributing something to the whole. This method is often faster and it enables very expensive apparatus to be put to better use. It may also overcome the problem that, from time to time, scientific discoveries were claimed, which had resulted in the falsification of results, their misinterpretation or too selective use. Can you remember any occasions where wrong or even dangerous results have been produced in this way. [speaker001:] Oh yes. Mm. [Colin:] Mhm. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So th there, there, there we have the example, don't we. Erm, Well, it's the thalidomide that you [speaker001:] yes yes, [Colin:] that you were talking about. Very very much last case. Very very serious. [speaker001:] Erm. [Colin:] I suppose there is always the danger that the scientist will see things, will be able to interpret things in the way that he or she wishes. [speaker001:] wishful thinking. Yes, wishful thinking. [Colin:] Wishful thinking yes, yes. Yes. Erm, the only example that I thought of, reading through this was erm, that of intelligence testing, erm, because intelligence testing er was held in high esteem about forty or fifty years ago. Maybe it will coming back into fashion now, I don't know, but there is no question as to whether some of the early er research that was done into the measurement of intelligence, was in fact fair, and fairly represented. [speaker001:] I know some of the weird things they brought in that, towards the latter end of the war. In the army, there was hundreds of people were put through selection tests and Yes, yeah, yeah Sticking your urine in a bottle, lot of blocks, sticking them in different coloured shaped holes and things like that, you know. [Colin:] Yes, yeah. [speaker001:] But er, it was all the rage in about forty-five, forty-six. [Colin:] Oh, certainly, yes, yes, and and it carried on for a long time afterwards, and and I think is is still used in some selection processes. [speaker001:] Is it. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] Oh [Colin:] But there are, I think there is question as to as to whether you can accurately erm, explain what a level of intelligence is, but comparison with other people, because some of the data that that was used in some of the earlier testing, erm, was faulty, so I have heard. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] Er, but there again I think it was because the person doing this, was so keen to see the right result, that he read into into [speaker001:] Into [Colin:] information coming back, erm, ideas and trends, you know, tendencies that weren't really there. Obtaining the evidence by observation. Evidence is all around us, and the first step in any research is for the scientist to decide which of the many facts are of concern to him. His mind must act as a filter. Collection of data may be a slow process, throughout his life, observe the time of appearance of the planets against the background of the stars. These planetary tables enabled to work out and test his flaws for planetary motion. Others such as geologists or naturalists may be able to collect that information much more rapidly, but again it may be years before it can be used to produce a theory of evolution. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] Do you that a child's mind works in this way, as he or she looks at the world and finds meaning of in it, and are others who are influenced by their own experiences and by their conclusions of others. In other words, is the is the child more able simply to observe and draw conclusions based on that. Whereas the adult is influenced by what he or she already knows or by what other people have been saying. [speaker001:] And a child's mind is free of clutter, isn't it. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes indeed, a child's mind is is... [speaker001:] If we can get past the clutter, we found that out, when, in our generation we tried to switch over to decimalisation, [Colin:] Mm mm. [speaker001:] Get rid of all the clutter, but that's what we found it most difficult to... Still not To decimalise. [Colin:] Yes, yes, it's still not there. No, no. [speaker001:] I took a retirement I took early retirement coming in the [Colin:] You you you would... [speaker001:] No. I couldn't do the old one now. No. Sometimes I the metres and things. all the measurements I can't... [Colin:] Yes, yeah, so [speaker001:] a metre and then [Colin:] Don't, let let let's just think of that for a moment as an experience, erm, as far as money is concerned. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] Do you find it easier to deal with. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Colin:] Pence and pounds than it was to deal with the old pounds, shillings and pence. [speaker001:] Oh, yes. [Colin:] There's [speaker001:] I always refer back. [Colin:] You refer back. [speaker001:] You shouldn't. I have, I know it is. You shouldn't And I often think to myself, when I'm paying for something, think to myself, oh I would never have paid that years ago. [LAUGHTER] you know. I know. When you, when you work it out. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes, [speaker001:] how much more you would have had to pay. Oh, it's a lot easier, the only thing I want to It's much easier. [Colin:] It's much easier. [speaker001:] morning, I found I had blank spot with the old twenty pence piece. It's gone now, of course. Ten pence piece. The the ten pence piece, yes sorry, the ten pence piece. And the florin. I kept mixing it up with the florin, [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] and yet, and I had some really embarrassing experience, getting it off [LAUGHTER] and querying all the change, getting dirty looks, and I could not get that point out of the brain. Kept thinking it was twenty I took me no end of time [Colin:] Yes, yes I can see that. [speaker001:] Ten p two shillings. And he kept thinking it was twenty. [Colin:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I had some really dirty looks from people in the shops, bus conductors, you know. [Colin:] Yes. But I think, I think that in the main the changeover to a decimal based currency was easier. But what about other things like, erm, distance,wh what [speaker001:] the metres. [Colin:] Metres [speaker001:] you know. I'd come up... [Colin:] Metres. [speaker001:] I don't bother, I still think in what I do, Mm. in my [Colin:] Yes, yeah. [speaker001:] I do it, it doesn't bother me all that much, no. [Colin:] Do you, do you, do you think in metres. [speaker001:] I'm I'm perfectly used to the distance system, Yeah. I've got all that, perhaps prejudice of them. [LAUGHTER] you actually didn't you. And we have car, I still talk in miles. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] And I still fill up with petrol by the gallons. [Colin:] Gallons, yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. Erm, I personally prefer litres, but I transmit that the [singing] four and half litres [] about four and a half litres And I reckon the miles, and petrol consumption yes. I don't know why. No, I don't either, no, no, it it it's strange, there are certain things that are difficult. I mean erm, I don't know the height of this room, but erm, I could not begin to guess in metres, but I would think, you know, a door is six foot six, traditionally in height, add a couple of feet on, it's, you know. That's twelve feet [Colin:] Yes, yes, [speaker001:] Ten feet [Colin:] Now, if if I were to say, let us now have that conversation using erm, [speaker001:] metres. [Colin:] metres. It would be very difficult for me. [speaker001:] I couldn't, I couldn't do it. No. [Colin:] Very difficult. [speaker001:] No, no. [Colin:] I I, because I do erm, a lot of kilometres, travelling a abroad. [speaker001:] I have a... [Colin:] I have no difficulties in miles and kilometres. [speaker001:] I've got an amaryllis, that high, but I couldn't tell you high it is in metres. [Colin:] Could, no, no, no. [speaker001:] I would say it was three foot six. [Colin:] And what about the height of an individual. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Yes. [Colin:] Erm, I still don't know what average height is, I know that in in in general, in in in erm, imperial measure, it is f five feet eight inches for a man, it's supposed to be average. But I've no idea what that is in metres. [speaker001:] No. No. [Colin:] So I never needed to know that. [speaker001:] I don't think you try. [Colin:] No, no. It's very [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] But I'm sure [speaker001:] I couldn't tell you. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] You couldn't [speaker001:] Erm may I say, while you've been... [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] across your groin One metre seventy, or something [Colin:] One metre seventy, but it was something like, yes, yes, [speaker001:] Something like that. It's the same with weight, isn't it. [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Same with weight. Oh yeah. [Colin:] It's the same with weights. Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm mm. [Colin:] Yes, I suppose, you see, [speaker001:] If you, if you haven't got the old clutter to get rid of, it's fairly simple. [Colin:] Yeah. Well, just learning one more system. [speaker001:] But to get it's quite, on top of the other thing, it seems seems quite complicated, doesn't it. [Colin:] It's not unlike language, if you grow up speaking a language, it's easy [speaker001:] Oh ar, it's easy [Colin:] If you have to acquire it as a new one, it's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Seen children take to it, like a duck takes to water, don't it. [Colin:] Yeah, yes, I I sometimes have difficulty with my twelve year old daughter, [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] because she understands litres and millilitres, and she understands kilograms and grams, and I still think, I suppose in pounds [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] and in pints, and if she's trying to cook something, and she says, daddy what does four hundred millilitres mean? I have to stop and think, and I have to work out that four hundred millilitres is not quite five hundred millilitres, so it's about, but I'm not sure how about a pou a pint. But it's very difficult, I've got to go through all that, before I can answer her question. And all she wants to know is do I use this jug, or do we use that jug. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think she's supposed to be [Colin:] The next generation, no, no, the next generation. [speaker001:] Must be doing litres for about twenty years, and I've been retired ten years. [Colin:] Yes, oh certainly. [speaker001:] and we were working in litres Oh yes. a good ten years [Colin:] Oh, wait a minute, it must be, because erm, [speaker001:] More than that. No. [Colin:] Oh, more more than that, because I was, I I can remember being in school [speaker001:] job and all. Yeah. Yeah. [Colin:] working under a headmistress, now sadly died, when the the the head of maths did a presentation to the whole school, so this was prior to nineteen seventy four when she retired. So nineteen seventy two I should think. [speaker001:] Oh, yes, easy, it's been I one of the thing, one of the things that was driving me mad in last part of my career was, I was responsible for documentation, the fuel issues on the, round a thousand of gallons a day. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] And it got to the point where our pumps were issuing the fuel in gallons, but the fuel companies were bringing it in in litres. [Colin:] In litres. [speaker001:] And I had to do conversions on thousands of pounds and litres and gallons, I was working from a con [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] a con conversion table, [LAUGHTER] I hadn't got it was. [] [Colin:] Yeah, I can imagine, yes, yes. [speaker001:] gallons and litres. That was the... that was, that was over thir fourteen years ago. [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] So that [Colin:] I think it was about nineteen seventy two that we went decimal. [speaker001:] Yes. Mm. [Colin:] We're gradually getting used to it. Ah, so the the child's mind is uncluttered, it's more easily able to erm, observe things, take in things, learn things, and has a lot of advantages over us older, us adults. By contrast, legend has it that in some cases, a single observation may result in a great discovery and here we've got one or two examples. The lifting of a kettle lid by the steam from boiling water may have led Watt to the discovery of steam power. Similarly observation, of the clear patch in a dish of agar on a jelly is said to have resulted in Flemming's discovery of antibiotics such as penicillin. Now we go on then, to the section obtaining the evidence by experiment. Observations show that events are not isolated but interact with each other, often producing a complex situation. Scientists use experiments, especially those which can be carried in a laboratory or under controlled conditions to simplify these interactions. When wanted to investigate this springiness of the air, he first identified the factors which might be involved, such as volume, pressure and temperature. These factors are known as the variables in an experiment. He set out to see how, changes in pressure, that's the variable, affecting the following, the dependent variable, keeping the other variable, that is the temperature, unchanged as a fixed parameter. Most experiments are concerned in the same way with a variable, a dependent and fixed parameters, now that's that's that's a lot to take in, in one go, isn't it. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] But, you could, you could just imagine, you've got three things, one, each one is interdependent on the other, change one and the others will change. So if you change number one and number two, it is possible to keep number three the same. As long as you are doing to number two something appropriate as effective by what you have decided to do. [speaker001:] [cough] [Colin:] We move on then a little bit, to talk about sociologists, because that's that's another area of science, erm, where a lot of observation was research and is done. Sociologists wanted to have their results accepted as scientifically accurate, have worked in the same way, but not always successfully, when dealing with people, is not always to easy to think of all the things which may affect the result. So sociology then, is the study of socie the study of people, and is rather different from studying materials which are, perhaps, not so variable. What are the factors, which if ignored, could affect the accuracy, for example, of opinion poles, and can scientific methods be successfully used in artistic, in social or political fields. Let's think about opinion poles. Can you think of factors which will influence the result. There's a lot, perhaps, difficult to take into consideration. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] The weather. [Colin:] The weather. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm, people go around trying to get data for the er, subject for discussion, and if it's rain, they don't find any proper average of the to [Colin:] Mm mm mm. [speaker001:] Erm, [Colin:] Any other. [speaker001:] Can have an effect. [Colin:] What else can have an effect? [speaker001:] Well, I suppose, if somebody's going around with an opinion pole, and they ask you about a certain, what you think about a certain thing, that, that, presume what their asking about, may affect everybody in different way [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] I mean, some may affect me one way, the next person they ask, affected another way, so they get two different opinions, don't they. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Although they would try to work that out by saying, for example, erm, we would have during the course of the day, to interview somebody from, you know, so many males, so many females, so many in this age group, so many in that age group, so many who perhaps, I don't know whether they go down to look at your address, or or whatever. But they tr, they're doing their best to get across, you you know, you sometimes wonder why they pick on you, and they don't pick on me. [speaker001:] That's right, yeah. [Colin:] They're obviously saying well, he fits into a certain category, whereas I don't. So erm, they they try to consider it. I think the thing that occurs to me, erm, they don't always know, erm, what has just happened to you. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] Erm, so do ho if if the question is how do you react to so- and-so, you're answer may very well depend on whether you've just stubbed your toe, against the pavement as you got off the bus. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Or whether you've had to wait for an hour in the rain for the bus to come along, whether you're in a good mood or a bad mood. Your answers may very well be affected by ho how your are feeling. Tha that's one thing that can't be taken into consideration. [speaker001:] So, if the same every day, [Colin:] Mhm. [speaker001:] investigates something, and there's half a dozen people in the group to give their opinion, it's not what worth the paper it's printed on. No. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] No. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] Because they they are picked at random. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] Yes, could be could be anybody, yes, yes. I'll tell a another way in which erm, er, you your comment about climates, about weather, may influence things. You can have a very good er, opinion pole about the outcome of an election. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] The outcome of the election may depend upon the weather. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Because, er, is it the floating voters, or is it the others who will turn out, regardless of the weather. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] They'll be some people who erm, for whatever reason won't come out because it's the worst possible day... for the weather, and and and poles have been affected by weather. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] You can't, you can't calculate that. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] No way in which you can calculate that. But wh what about scientific metho methods when they are studying sociology, the second part of that question. Can scientific methods be successfully used in let's say social or political fields. The study of sociology. I I I got a little bit involved in that a few years ago, when I was working on it, having had some scepticism before-hand. The idea that you you you look at people and you try to calculate the way in which they work, and and and how their behaviour and how their relationships affect other people... I think we display a degree of not knowing very much about that, don't we? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well, I could see yeah. [Colin:] Well, go on, say something about it, it [speaker001:] Well, sociologists and their families. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] It was very successful in establishing the details about execution and erm, and so on. But, coming to the practical side of it, [Colin:] Mm mm. That's very interesting because we're always going back to the earlier comment that, perhaps people like scientists, like sociologists are intelligent, but not in touch. they're not practical people,th erm, and it may very well be that there are some people who are very good at the theory, but erm, are not very good at at the practice. Le let let let. You need to have somebody who can use the results of the research, and see its practical applications. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Colin:] And that isn't, that isn't always very easy. Erm, we we we don't seem to know very much about sociology and political science. [speaker001:] Not a lot. Not a lot. [Colin:] No, but but in interesting area, very interesting. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] always something What about think of it. [Colin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes, well some of my, some of my best friends are sociologists, so I must be careful. [speaker001:] Oh [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Must be careful what I say, yes, but that that that's... [speaker001:] I I often wonder how a person can get a degree in sociology. Mm. I don't quite know how, erm, What are the subjects? [Colin:] What are the subjects. [speaker001:] Yeah. How about the lower social. Well, the higher social. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Yeah. It's ba, yes, I I couldn't give you an answer, because I I I [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] didn't come from that sort of background. I I latched onto it later on. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] Erm, but I I will see if I can find some information, it maybe that I, yes, you want to comment. [speaker001:] get a degree of political science. Oh, that's a good idea, mm. And and you hear of people having a degree in political science, how can a person obtain a degree in political science. I mean,polit er science, political science is not an exact knowledge. [Colin:] Well, no, it's it's I don't know whether political science could be exact, er, Maybe science is the wrong word, but it it it it do, erm, science basically means knowing, means knowledge. But it it would be interesting to know what sort of a background you have to have, in order to have a degree in sociology. Erm, I ought to know this, but it's not the sort of thing that I have on my fingertips. You you perhaps know you get [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] in sociology. [speaker001:] No. Depend on what your studying, I suppose, doesn't it. [Colin:] Yes, I mean, the the the rea, the people that I've had most contact with, erm, in sociology, are those who are concerned with, what is known as the labour market. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] The way in which work employment er, is available [speaker001:] Ah. [Colin:] or not available. [speaker001:] Ah. [Colin:] The level of unemployment, whether the unemployment erm, is for example, one of the old, or the younger element of society, er, where the difficulties are, er, what the employer thinks, how how many people, of what size are unemployed, how many people, of what age and of what sex. Now that's qui, that that I, having been involved in that to some extent, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] I find it very interesting. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] And you can see the, you can see the way in which it can be applied, if we know, erm, that there are erm, too many people of a certain age, and too few jobs, then maybe we can do something about it. Th th the trouble is the government seems to go the other way, and er, when when it should be learning my opinion, lowering the age at which you receive your pension, they want to extend the age into which you have to work. [speaker001:] Mm, right. [Colin:] Erm, there you are, that's always political, and we don't we don't want to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Four million people. So it's normally dealing with people, isn't it. [Colin:] It is, it's dealing with people. [speaker001:] Dealing with people. But erm, funnily enough I I I was out erm, on Saturday evening, and by a strange coincidence, er, where we were sitting having a meal, erm, in the restaurant, erm, someone came in and joined us, we saw, some friends of ours, and he is a sociologist from the University. And I'd been wondering whether like I could perhaps persuade him or his boss, the professor to come along and talk to us, and let, some of their time is very full, and to them time is money. Mm. [Colin:] There was a time, I'm sure, a few years ago, when you could have said, can you spare us an afternoon, they would have been only too pleased, but now, they might have to say, well, you know, two hours of my time, that's that's the university and you know, there are the overheads, and [speaker001:] But they're a salaried, aren't they? [Colin:] They're salaried, yes. [speaker001:] should have done it. [Colin:] Oh, yes, yes, but there there was certainly a time when, er universities, schools and even business companies, thought that it was part of their erm, their way of supporting society in general, that they gave time to go out and give talks. Er, I think there is a tendending now, for them to say, oh, I'm terribly sorry, we can only do this against payment. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Well, that's economic pressure. [Colin:] Economic pressures, yes, yes. My, you know, time is money, erm, if I can't account for it, [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] It's like you calling, you know, calling one of your accountants, [speaker001:] Mm. Yes. [Colin:] You know, he he gives two hours of his time. I'm sure we can get an accountant to come and speak to us, but we might have to pay him for two hours work, you see. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] And that, you'll have to take out a mortgage to do that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] But anyway, anyway. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Erm, the chicken to the egg, which comes first. Over the years. [speaker001:] Haven't found out yet, have we. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [Colin:] Over the years, it has never been certain, except in the very simplest cases, what comes first in scientific research. Do observations lead to a sudden idea or to a theory? Or, does the scientist know first, what he or she is looking for, in order then, to select the information he or she needs. A astronomer looks at the stars, a doctor looks at the human body. If they are too selective, they may miss the vital factor. It took many years for scientists studying malaria to realise it was the mosquito that was important, not the messenger from the martians. If experimental methods are to be used, then some theory must already be present. The results of the experiment may disprove a theory and it will then be abandoned with another. Results can never prove a theory. For in the future, under different conditions, there is always the possibility of showing that it's wrong. Nowadays, scientists look at laws and theories from a new prospective. They realise that improved techniques may disprove today's theory, and so they no longer use the terms, true and false, right or wrong, but only value a theory for it's usefulness at the time. It will be difficult to assess what counts as success in scientific research. For the researcher, it may be different things, it may be money, prestige, a claim by his piers, promotion within the team, notoriety, the ac acquisition, new knowledge. It could be the moment when, after years of tedious work, he obtains the result which leads to a flash of inspiration, a breakthrough to new knowledge, a glimpse into the future. And to close there, a few questions, let's take them one at a time. [speaker001:] Or to shoot them, sir. [Colin:] Or to shoot them, yes, yes, yes, if things go wrong. Or if they're found out, perhaps, yes, having based their decisions on faulty material. Do you think the joy of discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge could be used for the good of mankind, or do you think knowledge per se, is enough. Do you think that your discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge can be used for good of mankind, or do you think that acquiring new knowledge is just enough on it's own. [speaker001:] Could be, for instance, the knowledge of D N A [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] At the Universit university, which lead to the discovery of the murderer. [Colin:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] Now, I think that's a [Colin:] Mm mm. I think that I think that D N A is a very good example, because erm, it presumably, it was initially a piece of jury search. [speaker001:] Only he had no idea what he was after. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] I know, I know, [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] And er, it just suddenly... [Colin:] Mm. Yes, yeah, and now it it it's almost current language. Most people know about D N A, they they know the expression, they know what it means, they Yes, very common knowledge. And and of course, it has led to the conviction of a number of erm, criminals, number of murderers, certainly. [speaker001:] Before then, nobody had ever heard of it. [Colin:] Mm. Mm mm. But I I wonder... if, when it was discovered, the feeling was, jury named, it was a discovery, a new discovery. Or whether it was a feeling that this is wonderful, because it would be of use to mankind. [speaker001:] Well, I think he said before, let's see whether we can use this, [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] On this particular [Colin:] Yes, yes. yeah. [speaker001:] And it happens to have come out right. [Colin:] Mm mm. What about the discovery of atomic power? [whistling] [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] It was, was it... Erm, so er, there must have been a situation where he was discovered, that it was possible to split the atom, basically. [speaker001:] Yes, well that was,wha the, what was the name Hes Einstein, wasn't it. [Colin:] Einstein. [speaker001:] Ein Einstein. [Colin:] Einstein. [speaker001:] No, what what, you know, what Einstein was now, because, a chap called Heysing, something similar. [spelling] H E Y S I [] [Colin:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Something like that. [Colin:] Yes, yeah, yeah. But at that st [speaker001:] And then New New [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] That's the one, Newton [Colin:] Mm, mm. yeah. Erm, but at that stage, it was very much, pure science. [speaker001:] That's called pure science. [Colin:] It is a theory. It's been proved that the theory can work in practice. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] At that stage they weren't sure, as I understand it, what could be the use, misuse, abuse of this discovery. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] But it was almost, think wonderful, that they were able to discover this. Erm, and then of course, later, someone was able to turn this... into a fearful weapon, that that was often my view of the thing. Erm, who only later realised what he had opened up to the whole of mankind. Erm, that that that that is a point where the discovery in itself, must have given a great deal of pleasure to a a er a number of people who've been involved in the, in the research. [speaker001:] Well of course a very long process of discovery and experimenting, and eventually [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] got the, got the through that stage, erm, heavy water. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] That was in Norway, and got away from the Nazis [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] and then reached it's destination in America. [Colin:] It's a, very, very, very, complex story [speaker001:] That's where the pressure comes in again, isn't it. [Colin:] Pressure? Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] The pressure to do work against 'cos they knew that Germany were working on the same lines, didn't they, the enormous pressure to get there first. I mean, the research is still going on. [Colin:] Mm, mm. [speaker001:] Oh, yes. Yeah. I think it's a thing that they wish they could dis-invent, don't they. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Well, yes, but then you begin to wonder what would,ho how, would, if they, if you could dis-invent. [speaker001:] You can't dis-invent it. [Colin:] What would, what would have happened to history. But that's another Let, let, let's see if we can tackle at least one more, before the tea comes in. Do you know of any cases where the desire for success has led a scientist to falsify or misinterpret, either unintentionally, or deliberately. [speaker001:] It has been done, but I couldn't give an example. [Colin:] No, no. I feel exactly the same. I'm sure that I've heard of instances where, er, the results have been falsified, [speaker001:] [crockery being brought in] [Colin:] in order to make it look it right. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [Colin:] Erm, and the last question, very quickly then. What's the of computer aided research. So many results are being produced, that there is neither time, nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way, by which vital results could be identified and used, and I think it's a very difficult question, that one. [speaker001:] Just of isn't it. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Possibly because of computer aided research, so many results are being produced, that there is neither time nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way in which vital results could be identified and used. The the difficulty is knowing what is going to be useful in the future. [speaker001:] Mm. Well, they can't look, they don't but what according to and therefore they have to throw a high percentage of the results, [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] out, and work for is used or can be used what just like that. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] But then again, er, for people like us difficulties given [Colin:] I think, yes, yes, yes, I think, I'm, I think that that that that is one, it's it's last one, that probably has erm, defeated us. Were were not able to make very much comment. So I I I'm going switch off this this recording, you see, erm, for our Monday afternoon session. [speaker001:] Thank you, dear.

[speaker001:] had her operation and that everything's going well, and I'm sure will take our best wishes to her, when er, he goes home after the meeting. Well, this morning, er, you know all know Colin, there's er no need for me to spend a lot of time introducing him to you. He's been here several times before, and er, we do look forward to having another interesting morning with you, and I understand that er, you're going to give us a musical morning, this morning, and er, sing to us. [Colin:] Not going to sing. I promise not, well I might get carried away. [speaker001:] Alright, well. It's all over to you then, Colin. [Colin:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Welcome here. [Colin:] Erm, I'm going to er talk to you this morning, and invite comments this morning, about Anthems of the Nations. It's erm, a hand-book study from last year's hand-book, and erm, the reason I picked it, I think is is two-fold. First, the first reason, er is entirely coincidental. I was approached in this room about erm, twelve months ago, by Francis and Tricia erm, to ask if I would make a programme out for their group. The gardeners group. And I wrote down, that they were on a doing Anthems of the Nations. When I asked them about it later, they said, oh no, we have no intention of doing Anthems of the Nations, perhaps you would like to do it for us. So I was landed, hoist with my own petard, if you like. Landed with that topic. Having discovered that, I was then, in April of last year, in France, in Strasbourg, Strasbourg is Leicester's twin city in France, and as I was wondering through near to the cathedral in Strasbourg, I found a book a book-shop, a second- hand book shop. Thumbed through some papers that they have got, in front of the shop, and found one set of erm, papers from nineteen thirty-six concerned the French National Anthem, and I thought that was a second amazing coincidence, er, and so I had to buy myself that that set of papers for about a pound. And it really was quite interesting. So what I propose to do this morning, is to talk erm, based on the notes from the hand-book about Anthems of the Nation, but to spend probably more time, talking about the French National Anthem, than about any others, because I know a little bit about it, and I have discovered even more. No prizes then, for guessing that that was the British National Anthem, erm, God Save the King as it was, or was it originally God Save the Queen, it was King, er when you grew up [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] And then, then the Queen. Erm, and it was interesting that there was always a tendency to stand up, wasn't there. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Colin:] Because I think in the so called Good Old Days, you always did stand up when you heard the National Anthem played. [speaker001:] And I remember one or two who used to sit do, keep seated, you know, just to [Colin:] As a sign, yes, yes, as a protest. [speaker001:] I don't know what it was. [Colin:] As a protest. Yes, as a protest against it. [speaker001:] Oh, I didn't think of it, you know [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] You know when you when you, at the end of the film, you all done it, didn't you. [Colin:] Yes, yes. There was a time when you couldn't go through a week, perhaps couldn't even going through a day, without hearing the British National Anthem somewhere. The radio, television, the radio used to close down, the television used to close down, if if you were up late enough at night, with that with that National Anthem. And erm, the the radio was the same. At the end of the film, or at the beginning, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] At the beginning. [speaker001:] At the beginning. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, it used, mm, it us. But there was a time when [speaker001:] You always, you always have it at the beginning or any er programme. Well, I think that started in the black-out, you know, because, we had to, if the sirens went, you know, we had to stop in the [Colin:] Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. so the [speaker001:] In the cinemas, I mean, it changed. [Colin:] It ch it changed, didn't it, there was the there was a great change, that meant that people no longer heard it at at the same time. They heard it at the beginning rather than at the end. It then gradually disappeared. The only time you hear it now, is on sporting occasions, I should think. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yes, that's right. [Colin:] Perhaps before the Queen's Speech on [speaker001:] Don't forget the Command Performance. [Colin:] Yes, yeah, and Command Performances, and things like that. Erm, I don't suppose anybody knows who wrote the Natio National Anthem. Er, Rupert's scratching his head, he he thinks he knows. [speaker001:] before his time. [Colin:] No, it isn't. It's not known with any degree of certainty, erm, there was some indication by someone writing at the end of the last century, that it was written by someone in the time of the Queen Elizabeth, hence, perhaps it was God Save The Queen. A man by the name, would you believe of Doctor John Bull. [speaker001:] Bull. [Colin:] Now whether that's true or not, I don't know. The writer of the words was possibly Henry Carey, Henry Carey and he was an English poet and composer and he wrote various erm, bits of erm music, words. He wrote farces, he wrote burlesques, he wrote songs, and sometimes he wrote accompanying music for things going on on the stage, and apparently he also wrote Sally In Our Alley. So if the story is correct, the writer of the music for the National Anthem is the same as the composer of the music for Sally In Our Alley. Erm, originally is was sung in Latin, in the time of the Stuarts, and then, an er, after the exile of James the Second, and English version appeared. I don't suppose you've ever heard it sung in Latin, I certainly haven't. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] I wouldn't even know where to begin to find that that. Erm, [speaker001:] Probably sing it in the er, Catholic Church. [Colin:] Yes, they probably would sing it in Latin in the Catholic, they they certainly use erm, Latin, and of course the words have changed depending whether it's a King or a Queen on the s on on on the throne, and from, it's gone from God Save Our Lord The King, to God Save Our Gracious Queen, and that came in, of course, in the time of Victoria, and then had to be brought in again, er, at the time of erm, Queen Elizabeth. And what about some of the others. What what about Anthems in general. They haven't always been National Anthems, it's a relatively new thing, erm, I've mentioned Elizabethan times, about four hundred years ago. Er, it probably came into fashion in the, something like the eighteenth century. Before the eighteenth century, there wasn't perhaps a National Anthem, there wasn't such much of a er, national feeling, and so there was very little need to have a National Anthem. So we're talking about the seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, and it was very often known as a national song, and we had a national song, probably before any other country. It wasn't known as a National Anthem, apparently until eighteen fifty-two. So before that it was a National Song, and then it became a National Anthem, eighteen fifty-two, before your time, I should think, eighteen fifty-two. [speaker001:] Yes just a little bit. [Colin:] Just a, just a little bit. [speaker001:] Just a little bit. [Colin:] Just a little bit. [speaker001:] Just a little bit. [Colin:] And then other countries started to get on the band-wagon and erm, find their own tunes. Now the the tunes and the words vary enormously, and we shall have a chance to hear some of the tunes, certainly. Sometimes the words are prayers. Praying for the King, the Queen, or whatever they have. Sometimes they express patriotic sentiments. Sometimes they refer to battles, or revolts, or revolutions. In the case of some of the, particularly recently made newly independent states, there is a whole idea of a revolutionary fervour. This is perhaps, particularly true of some of the anthems for the, erm, the African States. By contrast, some of the older countries, who got a history of calm and stability, they have Anthems which try to bring out the beauty of the country. The natural beauty of the country. And again, you will hear from the differing music, the way in which er the Anthems vary tremendously. The variety, there is a great variety, also of musical styles. God Save The King, or God Save the Queen, as it is now, is stately, rhythmic You could march to it, but I was corrected at a recent meeting, to say that people don't march to it, but you could if you wanted to. So are marching songs, other have, er, others are very brisk marching songs. You'd practically have to run to keep up with with some of them. And some of the South American ones are rather more like opera, than National Anthems, erm, and of course, sometimes you come across er tunes, which are I suppose, Anthems. Hardly National Anthems, because if you think of the Red Flag, which is the Communist Anthem, it's not National, because it spreads throughout the whole of the world, for those people who are erm, red incline, Communist incline, and if you think of Europe, whatever you think of Europe, there is a European Anthem. You can't call it a National Anthem, because it covers the the twelve or more states of the European Union, as it is now, and do you know what that is, the the Anthem for the European Union. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] It's Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the the last movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, erm, [singing] you'd know the tune, you'd recognise it, particularly if you had a better singer than me on as a accompaniment. [speaker001:] Encore. [Colin:] But that's erm, thank you, thank you. Erm, that was, erm, that was also, that that that is the Anthem for the European Union, as it's now called. Erm, and not only do they have the red flag, there is the, erm, the Internationale for the the Communist Movement as well, and that apparently erm, was written by French workers in the nineteenth century, and it was used in Russia until nineteen forty-four. So we have National Anthems, and those are the ones we're gonna concentrate on. But there are sometimes, erm, Anthems that are, not just for one Nation, but for lots of Nations. We've already mentioned that the British National Anthem was played a lot at one time. This was, I suppose, the case, particularly during the war, the Second World War, er, where it was used to promote a National feeling. And the, as I say, it must have been difficult to go through a day, between nineteen thirty-nine, and nineteen forty-five without hearing the National Anthem somewhere, somehow. Er, nowadays, it's very rarely heard. Erm, I can't remember when I last heard the British National Anthem, apart from the little excerpt I played just now. When did you last hear the... [speaker001:] Queen's Speech. [Colin:] Birthday, Queen's Speech on Christmas Day, and er, it usually is the morning, isn't it, in the morning of the, er,Prin the Duke of Edinburgh's birthday, the Queen's birthday. [speaker001:] in June. [Colin:] Yes, in June. [speaker001:] And sometimes on the Queen Mother's Day. [Colin:] And on the Queen, on the on the Queen Mother's Birthday, yes, yes. You wouldn't hear it if you went to Australia, would you, because they're trying to do away with that. [playing excerpt of music] Quite typical at the end, isn't it. [singing] [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Any idea where that on one is from. [speaker001:] Luxembourg [Colin:] Not far away, Belgium, actually, Belgium. [speaker001:] That's it, of. [Colin:] Yes, yes, it's Belgium, and you you may have heard again during sporting events, football matches, or or whatever it is. Erm, written about a hundred and fifty years ago, during a struggle when Belgium was trying to regain it's er, it's independence from Holland. Er, and it's sung in two languages, either in French, or in Flemish, because they speak them both over there. Erm, and the the verse, goes something this. Oh, noble Belgium, Well beloved Mother, to you our Hearts and Hands we give, to you our life lie, dedicating, together swearing you shall live, so again, it's a very patriotic feeling. Erm, trying to engender that feeling in in the people who listen to it. [playing music] Any, oh, got th the beginning of the next one, any idea on that one? [speaker001:] It's not the Olympic one, is it. [Colin:] No, it's not, but it's Canada. [speaker001:] Oh. [Colin:] It's Canada, and you can almost hear, [singing] O Canada [] [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] If you if you happen to know where it fits it. You can almost hear that one. Erm, and has, we haven't got anybody here who has relatives living in Canada, erm, but once or twice I found that people recognised that because, they've been to Canada, visit relatives and they they they they therefore know and they they've heard. [speaker001:] I I I I thought I knew it, but I couldn't make out where I'd heard it. [Colin:] Couldn't make, yes, yeah, It's the Canadian one, the Canadian one. This is a long long way away. [music] That in fact is the Chinese National Anthem. I think we have to remember that that that these Anthems are all played by the same military band, and therefore they're played in a western style. Perhaps if you heard it in different circumstances,su, you know, surrounded by Chinese people, then maybe you would begin to recognise it. But erm, it's called the March of the Slaves, and it calls upon people, Arise you who Refuse to be Slaves. There you are Rupert, right up your streets, isn't it. You who refuse to be to be slaves. This is. The next one is a rather different one in style, not attempting to be so nationalistic, chauvinistic. Not attempting to arouse er, peoples nationalistic feelings, but really looking at the country. They will be standing up for quite a long time. That's actually in two parts, as you heard, and the first part is very much trying to paint a picture, I think, trying to show how beautiful the country is, and we don't, I haven't told you yet which country it is. And the second one is just that little bit more lively, try to arouse people. Storms must pass, Sun will shine, Slovaks shall waken. So it, it was, I suppose we have to say in the past tense, it was, the National Anthem of Czechoslovakia. Now that they've split into two parts, erm, I don't know which one that belongs to. Presumably the Slovakian parts, since it, it urges the Slovaks to awaken. The next one, a little bit further north, this time, and it's the Danish National Anthem, and it says, something like, King Kristian Stood Beside the Loch He Masked in Mist and Smoke. So that one really is telling a story, commemorating something in Danish history, when they were fighting for their for their freedom. Dates probably from the eighteenth century, and apparently the Danes also used the music to our National Anthem at one stage. So our National Anthem has been about a bit, particularly when you think that it came, probably came from, or was used in, erm a piece of music simply by Haydn. So our National Anthem is not ours alone, it's been borrowed, stolen, used by a number of other people. This is the next one, and you'll probably recognise this one. [music] Any prizes for that one? [speaker001:] Marseillaise. [Colin:] That was the Marseillaise. That's right, yes. That's the French National Anthem. Er,an and as I say, that was that was one of the reasons [speaker001:] Mm. French National Anthem. [Colin:] why I very much decided, I would er, investigate the whole business of National Anthems, because erm, that supposedly, was written in Strasbourg, not in Paris [speaker001:] Oh. [Colin:] where you might think in the centre of France. Erm, and it wasn't written in Marseilles, although the Marsei, the word Marseillaise, might suggest it was written in Marseilles. Erm, it was called the Marseillaise, erm, because the volunteers from Marseilles came up from the south, and entered Paris and they were singing, erm, this one. Anybody know the name of the person who wrote words and music according to the story, according to the legend, of the Marseillaise. It's a man called Claude Joseph, was his christian name, Rouget de Lisle, Rouget de Lisle, probably never heard of him. But er, but it it it the the if you look on the music, then you nearly always see his name, Rouget de Lisle. But he, that's his surname really. He was born in seventeen sixty, in the middle of France, really, erm, and he came from quite a large family. They had seven children in all, did his his family, and the the popular expression at the time was that their their family didn't grow vegetables, they grew children. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Quite a successful family. One of his brothers went into the Navy and became very successful and very high up in maritime administration, another went into the Army, and became a General. He himself went into the Army, and erm, he was, he was born in a in a little village, and an article in the newspaper that I acquired in Strasbourg, said that he was born in this little village Lom le Soniere his was born to life, but in Strasbourg, where he wrote the National Anthem, he was born to immortality. So his name stays forever in in in French people's minds. He went through military school and he decided that at point that he would acquired an extra name. So he was born de Lisle, and it was at the point that he was in military school that he added the Rouget, you know, like having a double barrelled name, [speaker001:] [cough] [Colin:] in in our in our erm... country, the same was there, he tacked on this name, because he thought it would sound better for an army officer to have a name like Rouget de Lisle, instead of just de Lisle. I think it was his grandfather's name that he'd er, he'd acquired at at that at that time. He moved around France quite a lot, and not only was he a soldier, but he was writing comic operas and operas, and musicals and so on, and some of his work was pro produced and performed at the Opera Comic, in in France. He was a tall, red-haired man, according to the descriptions he had one shoulder higher than the other, but that didn't seem to prevent him being attractive to women. And we'll come back to that lat per perhaps it doesn't matter if you've got one shoulder higher, higher than the other. [speaker001:] [cough] Sorry about that. [Colin:] Wh when he went into erm, when he went into Strasbourg with the garrison, he was very well received, because he was an officer, he was a gentleman, he was a musician, he was a composer, and he became very friendly with the Mayor of Strasbourg, whose name was Dietrich a very German sounding name, but don't forget that Strasbourg is very near to the German border. The Mayor of Strasbourg, this man Dietrich, Baron, Dietrich, used to do a lot of entertaining, and very often erm, Rouget de Lisle would be invited to join the company. Also present, very often, was the choir master of Strasbourg cathedral, whose name was Ignas Plielle so you had a number of musicians, and it was quite nice, because the wife of Baron Dietrich, was also interested in in music. War was declared on Prussia and Austria on the twentieth of April, in seventeen ninety-two. I bet you all knew that, didn't you. twentieth of April, seventeen ninety-two, France declared war on Prussia and Austria. It took four or five days for that news to reach Strasbourg. Sign of the times, isn't it. Two hundred years ago it took five days for news to get from Paris to Strasbourg. Now it's done in less than a second. Things have changed enormously, but it's, so it took sometime for them to get to know that they, the French were at war with, the Prussians and the Austrians, and don't forget that Strasbourg is only on the other side of the Rhine from Germany or whatever part of Germany er, it was at the time. Er, not Prussia, that was a bit further away, but nonetheless, the threat was there. Erm, there was a big reunion at the house of the Mayor of Strasbourg, Baron Dietrich, and they discussed a number of things, and one of the topics was raised was how coarse the Revolutionary songs were. The Revolution had taken place, the Revolutioners had been singing songs, and one of the people present at this dinner, this banquet, said, what we need is something different, something new, we need a new war song. And er, Baron Dietrich called across to Rouget de Lisle, come on, Captain, make us a war song. And in spite of his own protestations that he couldn't begin to do it, everybody pressed him, including Madame Dietrich, including the Baron's wife, and she charmed him. So. Rouget returned that evening to his rather humble lodgings in the town. In his mind he had obviously got fragments of things that he'd heard and seen that day, there was an expression that was being called out, To arm citizens, because war had been declared. The Standard of War is Being Unfurled. He probably also remembered that the Mayor's son was a commander of a ba battalion that was called Enfant de la [speaker001:] children of the fatherland, motherland. So with these words in his mind, these snippets of words, he he he sat down. He took up his violin. Found a tune, he took up his pen and he wrote some words, and according to the story, according to the legend, the next day at day-break, he rushed off to the Mayor Dietrich, and was able to say, I have done it. And Madame Dietrich describes this in a letter which she later wrote to her brother. Her husband was a very good tenor, the Baron, he sang, and she wrote out the parts for piano, and various other instruments. Now there is a famous picture somewhere in in France, I think kept in one of the museums in Strasbourg, which shows this scene, but it shows Rouget de Lisle actually singing it. The truth according to the letter, is that it was the Baron, the Mayor of Strasbourg who sang this for the very first time. There's been a lot of discussion about who actually wrote the erm, the National Anthem. There is some thought that this other musician, the choir master of Strasbourg wrote it, or perhaps produced the music, to which erm, Rouget de Lisle produced the words. Nobody really knows, it's been... discussed, argued about for years and years and years. Perhaps we shall never know. It's rather nice to think that it happened in that way, that it was done overnight. Rouget de Lisle had a very unfortunate end to his life, because erm, he was, he had a good position, but he lost it. Erm, Dietrich the Mayor had to flee the country. He fled to Switzerland, he then returned. He was captured, and you know what the French do. He had his head cut off, he was guillotined. Erm, Rouget, as I say, lost his position as a Captain, he was arrested, he was imprisoned. He became friendly with Napoleon Bonaparte, and he became friendly with Josephine. Now don't forget, that I said, that in spite of the fact that he'd got one shoulder higher than the other, he was very attractive to women, and there is running through this story, the suggestion that maybe he was too friendly with Josephine. She was the one who kept saying, not tonight, wasn't she? Or they said it to her, I don't know. Erm, and perhaps because he was becoming too friendly with Josephine, he was sent to Spain by Bonaparte, but then he fell out with Bonaparte, and Bonaparte fell out with him, and he was put under surveillance by the erm, the President, and erm, it makes you wonder what really went wrong. Rouget de Lisle never married. Perhaps he had fallen in love with someone, who knows who it might be, but he never married. He lived out in the country for a number of years, lived in poverty, erm, he thought about and he wrote about suicide. He had a miserable life, he came to Paris and led a further miserable life. And this was the man who wrote their National Anthem. Finally in eighteen thirty, there was yet another revolution in France, and that brought him a a ray of hope. He was finally given a pension, but by that time he was old, he was half paralysed, and he was nearly blind, and he died in eighteen thirty-six, only six years after he'd received this recognition and this pension. And he was, he had an unfortunate death, because he he he his body was buried in the little churchyard near to the village where he had been brought up, and he'd no sooner been buried, than they decided to run a road through, or, erm, something, so his body had to be unearthed and moved somewhere else, and it wasn't until nineteen sixteen, that the body erm, was taken out and was taken to Paris, and restored in the er, where so many other famous people erm, do have their tombs and their remembrances. So that's the story. A rather sad story in a way, about a man who, for a very short time, achieved fame in Strasbourg because he he wrote the Marseillaise, which we all recognised, didn't we? [Colin:] Let's let's hear the next one. [playing music] Know, that one, don't you. [speaker001:] Yeah. Deutschelands. [Colin:] That's Deutschelands That's the, that's the German National Anthem, it's Deutscheland, Germany Above All. I think you have to remember that the next line begins, If, so it's not just a pro it is, it is a nationalistic song, but it's not just a proclamation that they will be, erm, superb, superior. It's If. There is a condition attached to it. Erm, apparently the first tune they used to those words, was a tune, which I've not been able to find, which came from Britain. Er, and eventually they took that tune from a melody from a Haydn's string quartet. And of course, it's also a hymn tune, isn't it. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Colin:] Erm, very often used, it's the old hundred, is it. Yeah, it's the erm, the one [singing] Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. It's city of my God, that's it. Erm, like this country Germany has, not only a National Anthem, but it has various songs that are also nationalistic. Erm, we would think of others, wouldn't we, not only do we have our own National Anthem, but we have other songs that that arouses from time to time. Land of Hope and Glory, is one that almost is a substitute for [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] The National Anthem, and the Germans also have various other ones, erm, there is one which is very well known, called the Watch on the Rhine, bearing in mind that the Rhine for much of its length is the border between Germany and... the rest of the world. Erm, certainly between Germany and France. Erm, so that is the one that used to be used, and to some extent is now used. There was a time when they were only allowed to sing the last verse, not the first verse, because of this er very nationalistic erm, attitude that it portrayed. [tape stopped and restarted] Yes, Dutch, yes,no not as I say, not far away, that was Deut the first the first one we heard was Deutscheland, and that was the Dutch one, that's the Netherlands one, erm, written a long time ago, written in the sixteenth century, written as a piece of music, erm, the tune, apparently very very old indeed, erm, and Mozart took the tune, and made variations on it, which is perhaps why it sounds familiar, you've probably heard it somewhere else. Erm, it was adopted when Wilhelmina became Queen in eighteen ninety-eight. Adopted as their National Anthem, and the words mean something like, Let Him in Whose Veins Flows the Blood of the Netherlands Remains Free from a Foreigners Strain. Again, very nationalistic, and, rather short, isn't it. I think I'd rather stand to that one, than I would, of like standing to the Czechoslovakian one, which seemed to go on and on and on. Erm, another tradi [music] Few, any dancers in the company. [speaker001:] Spanish. [Colin:] Do you notice anything about that? It's, in, it's it's in three, four time, it's a waltz time. [speaker001:] Mm. [Colin:] You could waltz to it, But it would be a funny one to march to, wouldn't it, although, you know, but it it it was certainly in three four time. [speaker001:] Yes. [Colin:] The waltzing time. It's it's it's er, it's Polish, it's Polish. It's erm, a traditional song as I say, and erm, it was, erm, it was written, ah, way back in, just after the turn of the the century, eighteen hundred and something, eighteen hundred and five or six, something like that. [speaker001:] It's a l it's a lively tune. [Colin:] It's a very lively tune, but it is [speaker001:] Considering Poland was really oppressed. [Colin:] Yeah, it is, it is, it's a waltz. It is a waltz. Erm, so if you want to get up and have a dance, that's the one to to play to. This is another, er, I think, very very traditional one. [tape stopped and restarted] Haven't heard of that one before, it's it's a Swe, Swedish Swedish National Anthem, and it's erm, it's it's something like, Though Ancient, Though Free, and Mountainous North, Though Silent, Though Joyest, Though Beautiful North. So it's very much praising the landscape of the country. Not the King. Not the battles. [speaker001:] No. [Colin:] Not the flags, but the countryside. Erm, first sung apparently as the end of the last century, about eighteen ninety-four, erm, and they had at least three other Anthems in their time, including, at one stage, using the two, a pair, God Save the King, God Save the Queen. So as I say, ours has been about a bit, it's been borrowed by various people. But that that is the the Swedish one. This one I'm sure you'll recognise. [playing music] [speaker001:] Russia. [Colin:] No. [speaker001:] Red Flag, ah. [Colin:] No, no, no. You're the wrong side of the world, altogether. It's United States. [speaker001:] States. [Colin:] The United States. [speaker001:] You know, I thought it was, but, it sounded more like... [Colin:] It's the Star Spangled Banner, the Star Spangled Banner, [speaker001:] That's it, forever. [Colin:] yes. They they also have My Country it is of Thee. And the picture you sometimes have, well, certainly the one I have recently, is of President Clinton standing there,whe whi listening to whatever version they were playing, when he was in Russia. Erm, with his hand across on his heart, because that's that's the the way that they do it. Erm, it was written in eighteen fourteen, and the author, at the time, was watching the bombardment of Baltimore from a British ship on which he had been detained. So there is some history, erm, to it. But the melody, apparently, had been the song of a gentleman's music club. So the words composed to fit the tune, that's already been going around in a, in a gentleman's music club. Erm, it's it's a very interested one, isn't it. And you, again, you, I'm sure you'd heard it before, but were difficult to say, is it, is it there. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah [Colin:] I wonder what you would make of this one. I don't think you'll [tape stopped and restarted] and I suppose I make no apologies for including it, because I think we are all very well aware of the terrible tragedy that is happening in in Yugoslavia It's not not an Anthem that I would have recognised, erm, I was fortunate to go to Yugoslavia on, I think, two occasions, in happier times, and it saddens me tremendously, to see, on the television, to hear on the radio, to read in the newspapers, just what has happened to what was emerging as, not only a very beautiful, but a very successful country. I first went, I suppose in in something like the nineteen seventies, and I can remember in those days having some difficulty getting into the country. Because it was a communist led country, erm, but I had, I was going to visit friends, er, and it it was, possible for us to get in. Oh, we had to wait at the border, we had in advance to get visas, and when we got there, things were very simple but nonetheless, we were very well received, and the person that I was staying with, lived in a flat, a very simple flat, but nonetheless, a very pleasant flat. I went back, not to see the same people, but I went back, erm, on a a family holiday. I should think it was about ten, fifteen years later, and it was so easy to get into the country. That had changed tremendously, so easy it was to get into the country, that I went in and out of the border about three times, because having got into Yugoslavia, I realized I had some Italian currency, so I drove out again, spent my Italian currency, and drove back again. Er, er, and nobody seemed to bother then, the the place had opened up, it had become westernised, it was prosperous, it was green, er wherever you went you were very welcome, people tried to speak English, people tried to communicate. That was in something like nineteen seventy, nineteen eighty something, the the the turn of the seventies, eighties. Now look what had happened to the place, and I play you that because, maybe we shall never ever hear that again, because Yugoslavia cannot now exist as a State. It must eventually be split up into, the Muslims, the Serbs, the Croats, and that, that is in fact very sad. So I I propose [tape stopped and restarted] [speaker001:] You were not singing, God Save the Person, it was God Save the Nation. Nation. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] the interpretation [Colin:] Because the King represented the Nation, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] yes, yes. yeah. [speaker001:] And al always on, the same, I think it is always the same school, er, Rupert. Always on Armistice Day, on the eleventh of November, the erm, not only the Ki, the the, God Save The King, National Anthem, but also the Marseillaise was, because it was a French class weren't they, Yeah. we knew that, and we had to sing it in French. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] But what I meant was, we was always, going have those two. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. I don't we're proud of our country any more, are we? [Colin:] We've, we've, we've run ourselves down far too long, and er I think this is true of us as individuals, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] As well as being true of the country. We,we we've gone through a stage where we've said, I'm not good enough, my families not good enough, my home's not, and my class isn't good, and my my town isn't good enough, erm, and so you go on from that, and you you eventually, but well, you know, what about England. England's not worth very much, is it. We we aren't, perhaps not the world-power that we used to be. Be we've got a lot that we ought to be proud of. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Certainly got a lot. Yeah, we we have run ourselves down, yeah, quite you're quite true. Quite right. [speaker001:] You notice a difference, even when you go to Wales. Where the [Colin:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] there, [Colin:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] They they're off like a shot, aren't they. Yeah. with their National Anthem. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yeah yes yeah, and of course they're all so wonder singers, aren't they, the Welsh. [speaker001:] Yes, oh yes. [Colin:] Erm, you know. [speaker001:] I think they say it's the hills, don't they, that er [Colin:] I don't know, I don't what it is, er, the, whether it's the hills or the water, but er, there's something, there's something that makes wonderful singers out of them. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's lovely. They're not afraid to let themselves go. Go. No, they er, they're not inhibited. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Whereas er, I'm afraid we English are inclined to do a bit of that. [Colin:] Yes, yes yeah, I mean, I think if I if I were to say to you, shall we sing the National Anthem, we'd say, oh no, no, no. No, don't want to do that. [speaker001:] I think it's because there's such a lot of mixed people here now. [Colin:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er, that's what it is, we're not a true Brits, now. We're not true Brits, we got to be like er, foreign people and er, we just seem to go their ways. [Colin:] Yes, I think that, you know, I made the comment earlier that erm, we have changed in the way in which news is communicated, it takes seconds. We've changed in the way in which we travel. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] Years ago, if you wanted to go to,n now let's say, to to Poland. It it would take you days upon days, in order to get there. Now you can do it in a matter of hours, in an aeroplane. [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah. [Colin:] And so it is possible for people to come and live here, [speaker001:] That's right. [Colin:] er, bring in their ways and their habits with them. Erm, and it is just as possible, in theory, for us to go and live somewhere else. Er, it is, it is very easy. [speaker001:] Some people are a bit more fussy, though, they what they are, aren't they. Yes. And that makes it. Er, that they keep their own... saying down there. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes [speaker001:] Not like us. [Colin:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Any old Tom, Dick, and Harry can come. Yeah, that's very true. That's right. [Colin:] Any other comments about Ma National Anthems and memories of... hearing National Anthems. [speaker001:] When I was a girl, [cough] [Colin:] When you were a girl, yes, yes. Here we go. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] now. That was a long time ago. Because I belonged to the Guides, and my er, Lieutenant, Captain, I don't what she was, I forget. haven't yeah. Came home, she came home with me, she came home with me, and I'd just learned to play the piano, and I played that, it was, we'd just come from Guides, you see, and I I was only young. Aha. Rupert. [Colin:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And and I played that, You were eleven. Oh my God. 'cos I'd just learnt to play this, thought it was ever so clever, and she put her hands on me hands, and she said, no, no, you mustn't play that, not while we're in uniform. I thought well... that, I mean, that stuck in my mind ever since then. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] Oh, well, we used to salute when they played Are yes, but you see, we were just standing there, and I was just showing off. Oh. She said, no, we don't play that. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Well that's that's that's rather strange isn't it, so you you, [speaker001:] Well, I thought so. [Colin:] If you hadn't your uniform on, you could play it, but because you had your uniform on [speaker001:] I don't why [Colin:] couldn't play it. [speaker001:] and I was so disappointed, because it was the only thing I could play. [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] Yes, oh yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Colin:] I supp ag again, I think this, it it shows a very different attitude, it was as if [speaker001:] Oh, yes. [Colin:] the National Anthem was something quite sacred, [speaker001:] That's right [Colin:] erm, and erm, I don't know that I ever did this, but I never heard anybody heard anybody walking the street, whistling the National Anthem. [speaker001:] No. No. [Colin:] Because if you, if if you did, somebody would think it was wrong. You could whistle a song, but you couldn't wish whistle the National Anthem. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right, yeah. [Colin:] It was, it was something quite sacred. Something that you, perhaps kept in a box, almost, and brought out on certain occasions. [speaker001:] cinema everywhere, everybody stood up and stood still Oh yeah. [Colin:] Yes. [speaker001:] but now. Some people used to go out they just go out, walk out. [Colin:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] We never used to do that years ago. [Colin:] Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] How many times have you said that get out before National Anthem [Colin:] Before the National Anthem yes, yes, yes. [speaker001:] You could get round that, if you went out during the singing of it. [Colin:] Mm. Mm. You either got out before, or [speaker001:] at the beginning because of those at the beginning. I know, when we used to down to London to the London Scout Gang Show. They always used to play the National Anthem before. Before. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes. It always seems appropriate to me to open, if you going to have a National Anthem at all, you should open with it, [speaker001:] Open with it. Yeah. [Colin:] Erm, and erm, and in a way, get it out of the way, but in a way register the fact that erm, you are observing, [speaker001:] Yeah. [Colin:] the importance of the Nation, if not the importance of the monarchy. [speaker001:] Especially when you travel to London, I mean, it meant it late,co couldn they did it first, didn't they, so you got it in. [Colin:] Mm. And then you were away, yes. [speaker001:] Then you went to the Gang Show. To the Gang Show rather. [Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] I wondered if they still did it at the pictures, 'cos it's years since I went to the pictures. [Colin:] I have no, no, no, I don't, I I wouldn't think I wouldn't think it's been played in a cinema for years. I was in a cinema on whichever evening, Saturday evening, and they certainly didn't have that. They had lots of advertisements, [speaker001:] Oh, yes. be at the end, don't they. [Colin:] Yeah, no. [speaker001:] Half of hour of advertisements. Yeah.

[Dexter:] Notices for you, first of all those of you who are on the Committee. Any er ideas you've got you've got, please pass on to the Committee member Thursday dinner time. The only other er notice I've got for you is that tomorrow I forgot to put it on the notices tomorrow we've got a lot of visitors in school there's about er thirty five of them coming over who are likely to be joining us in the lower sixth next September er lessons with the lower sixth to find out what erm... what... lessons are like you know okay. Now do welcome them, do make them feel at home, especially those of you who are new to the place you will know and remember what it's like when you first come into a strange building that feels like home. Okay, so erm do them and then if they're lost on practical things like they don't know where the toilet is will you help them. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dexter:] and er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dexter:] Thank you the only is that you will have seen organised generally supported that although I think we could support it a lot better than we have. So er think about that and remember [speaker002:] It's a different format Mr Dexter this time, we're not having maths we're having a ten minute and that will be followed by a concert.... It's a completely different format, so you might... might like to come to that okay. [Dexter:] Erm... this morning we have er another visitor and... who actually was a teacher and works at at a very senior position er heading er very interesting projects to technical location educations and I would like to er introduce you to Mr [James:] Good morning everybody. It's about er ten years ago nearly that I er stopped being a teacher and when I was a teacher er up having to do assemblies er it was always something that I did with great reluctance and er was er pleased if I could get other people to do it er it seems rather odd then er that I've actually said yes coming to do er an assembly here today and it's perhaps a sign of mental instability on my part. Er what is necessary for me to also convey to you is that the theme that I was given today was one of forgiveness. Er... the only difference between the situation now and the situation when I was a teacher is that there are a lot of Christians in this room per square metre than there would have been in a school where I taught... and that applies to where I work now er because er... the number of Christians who are around me in in the workplace are actually even smaller I guess... and er that may be something that er you will need to recognise is an unusual feature of your school life and that er as you leave school so you're going to go into very different environments where people behave very differently. When a colleague discovered that I was coming here to do this er she saw it as laughable... and she also saw it as something that I would prefer to keep quiet from my colleagues and tried a bit of moral blackmail on me as well to say I'm going to tell them about that if you don't them about this sort of thing. Er to contact when you're talking about forgiveness er well that was just the end you know that point.... Life isn't always like that for me and there are times when I do have [speaker002:] [cough] [James:] Christians around me when I am on Sundays and on Sundays I'm often involved in my own church with er preaching appointments and for me when I'm preaching the... the good news that is the heart of is actually one of forgiveness. I know from my own life of faith that my thoughts, my words and my often fail to match up to the Christian ideal... there is much that I do that hurts other people and there is much that I do that does not reflect Christ.... The Christians good news is that guilt and shame that I have of such behaviour is actually taken away from me. I don't deserve that forgiveness, but the God who loves me who has actually died on the cross for me has actually taken all of that away and more than that has made me new, has actually raised me as a new life with him. I've been lifted out of my selfishness. Now you think that because I am... I am forgiven and I preach forgiveness that I would be pretty good as up people, but that's part of my human failure... and I must admit that I've given plenty of opportunity to practice at home and at work er the opportunity to forgive, but it doesn't come easily... and certainly it isn't a strong feature of the non-Christian world in which I work and which you will be working soon. Forgiveness is not a strong feature of life. You've been brought up in a television age and you've been particularly been brought up in an age of card cartoons and soap operas and in all of those you would er expect to see good being oppressed that's part of the plot in every cartoon there is a plot in every soap opera, that the good... the good people actually end up in difficult situations... and the way that results in the cartoons and in the soap operas is usually find revenge or punishment.... Let me give an example Dirty Den got his comeuppance in Eastenders... erm the Road Runner always er wants er always manages to get that crafty bull er to the follies of his own tracks. It's all to do with revenge and punishment rather than with forgiveness. The only trouble with storylines like that is that life is for more complicated er we may want to see justice be done, we may want to see virtue being rewarded, we may want to see er all of those things happen, but when we make mistakes... when we make mistakes, when we are not virtuous, we actually end up not being too keen, but justice should be applied straight away. We actually want mercy, we want forgiveness, we want leniency.... I've got on the tape here a song which is by Manny Fryer he used to sing in Steel Ice Band er now I know that that's sort of very old hat, I'm sorry, but I sort of live in the past and er this er I I believe also that these days so that er you know I can sort of justify that but this is a song that er she has sung which er reminds us that each of us has the potential to commit the crime... I'll try not to play it fast forward, let's see how we go. [music for three minutes]. consider today and it's two things. I'm inviting you to consider how far a Christian should go in forgiving and to how far a Christian organisation like this school should go, in showing forgiveness... er I just want to kick you off with one or two points on each of those. That... I On the first point about us and our own showing of forgiveness. Jesus himself has things to say, for example his disciples asked him how many times should I forgive somebody else.... I was actually looking at you before I came in, but just come out here for a second... There are two ways I can hurt you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] Actually there's probably... probably three ways that I can hurt you. One way I can hurt you is physically all right? And another way I can hurt you is er mentally... and the third way I can hurt you is by combining the two together. All right? But I think that basically there's either two or three ways that each one of us has the ability to hurt somebody else.... You've been doing it to each other all the time... but if I were to hurt you or if anybody else here were to hurt you physically or mentally... how many times would you forgive them? If they did it once, would you forgive them? [speaker002:] Yes. [James:] Yeah, probably. If they did the same thing again to you? [speaker002:] Maybe. [James:] Maybe. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [James:] and the third time? Er... it's very hard to keep on forgiving somebody for hurting you in the same way over and over again and in this particular example, three times and that's it. Just... just all right. Don't more than three times all right thank you very much for your help there. There is another question, how many times do I forgive somebody. Should it be as many as seven times... and Jesus had replied both no, no you should be able to forgive forgive them seven times, it should be seventy times... in other words stop thinking about counting and just get on with the forgiving.... And in the prayer that Jesus [speaker002:] [cough] [James:] he says that we should say God please forgive us as we forgive others.... So how far do you actually want God to forgive you up to three times and then no more... you know it's... it's that kind of er question that we're asking and that we... that I feel that is something we should be thinking about that how far should a Christian go in forgiving. It's er all this is a fascinating theory or is it a question in real life. I invite you to think about just how far you should go in forgiving others in daily living, whether it's in here or outside. Another on the second point about how far a Christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness. You may be familiar with those sorts of stories which say my convent life was hell with the Sisters of Mercy er that kind of story about er church organisations that absolute not to show er Christian qualities in the way that they are organised is quite true that often Christian organisations do find it hard to show forgiveness. So should a school like this one equip for the realities of unforgiveness of the world outside, or should it be much more generous in the way it shows forgiveness... and can a school be organised so that it does actually reflect Christ's teaching on forgiveness. Is this the impossible. I'll be interested to hear what the teachers have to think about that and like you.... Can we just end with a... a short story about the job that I used to do before I did this one.... When I went to... the first meeting I had been appointed to the job, I went to the first meeting and there in front of me were lots of people who were managing their own schools... and they were organising how to spend money that they had been allocated.... all sorts of managing business and they had to work together and to hold group organisations. The person whom I was going to take over the job from said to me at the end of the meeting well what do you think of that meeting... and I must admit I the answer and luckily somebody else instructed with some other business and I felt I got off the hook here... but in fact that got dealt with very quickly and he came back to me and said well what did you think of the meeting... and I had to say to him just one word, was the way I put it. Because everybody in that meeting was thinking about blaming other people... they were actually trying to say it's not my fault that thing come in, it's not my fault that things are like this, it's somebody else's fault in a different organisation. It's not us, it's them.... and then I had to work with these people and I knew that that was the kind of way that they were operating... and I had to teach them by the way I worked... but in fact it was okay to admit that we do make mistakes. We have to admit that each one of us could fail in what we were supposed to be doing and in fact then we could work together, that we could forgive each other and that we could support each other in our work. In my present job I still try to keep that going. We do need to be able to show forgiveness in all the things that we do... but it isn't easy and Jesus devotion to is a great challenge to us as to just how far we can go. So in your groups now I appreciate it and I have asked. Erm I'd like you to be considering those two points. First how far a Christian should go in showing forgiveness and second how far a Christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness. Thanks for your patience. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Dexter:] That was very kind of you Sir James erm. [speaker002:] Particular example, remember this is all confidential I I'm told so er er it won't go any further than this... room. got anything [LAUGHTER] all the time So do you think it's something to do with maturity perhaps a child, a child is this wha what do you mean by forgiving? You can forgive or punish at the same time can't you, you can punish somebody and say that is wrong and yet you forgive them, that is you don't hold it against them... but you later on. they may get they get sort of get a bad name and perhaps not No. No. You also have to think of the effect it has on other people, how er if you just let people get away with it, it doesn't mean you hate them, loathe them and damn them but er you've got to make them realise that for other people, for everybody. What do you think er Graham. [Graham:] what the parents you know. [speaker002:] one-to-one [Graham:] Yes. [speaker002:] Martina? [Martina:] [LAUGHTER] really. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] How then, how then? [LAUGHTER] Christians are supposed to forgive, but what if say it's the mother of somebody who had a child that's been murdered or if somebody has been raped you cannot say that they should forgive you cos they were a Christian. There's a lot of talk about forgiving or forgetting isn't there, some people say I can forgive but I can never forget. Er you might think about some of these parents who have children murdered in the how much do you think revenge comes into it? is it? It's not that they're in rehabilitation, it's just like seeing that person is locked away in the prime of their lives revenge. Is this revenge or is this just the stopping other people from suffering really? [LAUGHTER] Shut up [LAUGHTER] Anyway [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] they ask about school say, but I don't think schools have the authority really to do anything either way about er forgiveness. It's like if you fall out with a teacher on the first day of term, if that teacher [LAUGHTER] You haven't that chapter for the rest of the year and say the teacher probably thinks well this child and [LAUGHTER] [whistling] I think forgiveness is not always An ideal [Graham:] forgive thine enemy always remember [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well next time I'll kick you [LAUGHTER] Okay number one. Yes, yes, yes. Number one then please spell the word Romeo, Romeo. Number two... spell the word Juliet... Number three spell the word Capulet, Capulet. Number four spell the word Montague, Montague... Number five spell the word Tybaot, Tybaot... Number six spell Benbolio, Benbolio... Number seven Balthasar, Balthasar... Number eight spell the word Escales, Escales, the Prince of Rome.... Number nine spell the word Mercutio, Mercutio... Number ten... spell the word Paris... Number eleven is worth two marks I want you to spell Friar and Lawrence. You get a mark for each. Friar and Lawrence, Friar and Lawrence.... Next one, Mantua, Mantua. When Romeo went to Mantua... then Verona, Verona... The last one is Apothecary, Apothecary, the man who sells Romeo the poison. Apothecary.... Okay, swap books then. Right, we'll go through them then erm and I would like to put your hands up tell me how to spell them. So number one Romeo, can someone spell Romeo for me please. [spelling] R O M E O [] [spelling] R O M E O [] that's right. Number two, Juliet. [spelling] J U L I E T [] Good, [spelling] J U L I E T [] Number three Capulet. [spelling] C A P U L E T [] [spelling] C A P U L E T []. Four, Montague. [spelling] M O N T A G U E [] [spelling] M O N T A G U E []. Next one, Tybaot [spelling] T Y B A O T [] [spelling] T Y B A O T [] Now Benbolio. [spelling] B E N B O L I O [] [spelling] B E N B O L I O [] Next one, Balthasar [spelling] B A L T H A S A R [] Good [spelling] B A L T H A S A R [] Er Escales, Prince, Prince of Rome. Paul. [Paul:] [spelling] E S C A L E S [] [speaker002:] [spelling] E S C A L E S [] Mercutio [spelling] M E R C U T I O [] Good [spelling] M E R C U T I O [] Paris. [spelling] P A R I S [] [spelling] P A R I S [] Now Fryer and Lawrence two marks. Craig. [Craig:] [spelling] F R I A R [] [speaker002:] Yeah. [Craig:] [spelling] L A W R E N C E [] [speaker002:] Good [spelling] F R I A R L A W R E N C E [] Mantua [spelling] M A N T U A [] [spelling] M A N T U A [] Verona. [spelling] V E R O N A [] [spelling] V E R O N A [] and Apothecary, Lisa. [Lisa:] [spelling] A P O T H E C A R Y [] [speaker002:] Excellent. [spelling] A P O T H E C A R Y [] fifteen and pass then back please. Right anyone less than ten? No, got eleven? Twelve? Thirteen? Well John was absent wasn't he, so he didn't have any test. Fourteen? Not bad. Fifteen? Excellent, well done, let's have a round of applause. [clapping] Right, we'll do a quick quick true or false. Then we'll do some. No you don't have to write the answers, I'll just ask them you orally. So true or false. duel. True. Romeo left a suicide note? True. True. Capulet? True. True. The nurse had a daughter named Susan? True. True, good. Erm Lady to murder Romeo in exile? True. True, good. Lady Montague dies of grief at Romeo's banishment? True. True, yeah. The Prince sentences death at the end of the play? False. False, good. Er Friar Lawrence was a Dominican monk? False. False. Can anyone tell me Friar Lawrence tell me what sort of a monk he was? He wasn't Dominican was he. Franciscan. He was Franciscan, yes Erm going to church on Sunday? And Shakespeare didn't existing story. True. Yes. Very good. Erm yeah, Romeo and Juliet was not completely his idea, it came from a sort of long poem which he read about two lovers and then he turned it into a play. So he got the basic idea from a poem, but obviously the play he wrote himself. Right, now let's do a bit of hot seating hey, where one of you will sit on a chair and pretend to be one of the characters and then the others will ask a question. So someone might be Friar Lawrence, someone might be Romeo. So let's have about six different characters, before we do it I'd like you need drafting books, just to think of a few questions that you would ask the characters. So let's have the obvious two, Romeo and Juliet.... Now which other four do you think were the key if you had to pick out six major ones, yeah. Friar Lawrence. Yeah, well Friar Lawrence because he's quite important to the plot.... Who else do think is important? Paris. Do you think Paris is that important? Would anyone like to argue with her and say it's not that much you know an important character. Sorry I lost Cos you don't hear much of him, he's just like the person you were planning to marry him, you don't hear much of him till started. Yes, go on were you gonna answer that? He's not much of a character, he's sort of a cardboard character isn't he, he's just the other man, the man that they want to marry Juliet. He's we don't really get to know him as a person. So let's see if there's anyone a bit more meatier and we get to know their character a bit more. The nurse. Yes, we want the nurse. She's a good character in it. Who else? Five and six. Stephen? [Stephen:] Capulet. [speaker002:] Capulet. Can anyone think of a better one maybe? Tybaot. Yes, Tybaot would be a good one, because he's full of aggression isn't he. Well he does get killed off in that doesn't he. Mercutio. Mercutio's a good one, yes. but he's not really in it that much is he. Erm anybody else, people like Balthasar, but they're only small characters aren't they. Montague we don't see much of, Rosalind we don't see at all. She might be, but I think there's six of the better ones. So think of a question for each of them then and write then down what you might ask them. So in your drafting books please. [whispering] Any volunteers on this table any of the six? It's not easy is it. Right two more minutes and then we'll start. Right let's make a start then. Right can we have Romeo on the chair please thank you. [clapping] Right, this is Romeo then, Romeo Erm does anyone want to ask questions then to Romeo, what yeah. What did you feel when you heard about I was surprised and I couldn couldn't believe what happened, I was saying gutted. My heart was split in two. I felt a rush of Wh wh this outrage. Thank you, thank you Romeo, right. If you loved Rosalind so much, how. My love for Rosalind was nothing compared to Juliet when I saw her beautiful dazzling [LAUGHTER] Right do you think you [LAUGHTER] Would you have got together with Rosalind if you never met Juliet, would you have actually got together with Rosalind? I felt, I felt, I never even thought of I mean I... I never felt nothing for Rosalind no interest or anything. Just infatuation was it? Yeah? Yeah Juliet was like a teenage queen or was it puppy love? Couldn't you see that I loved her when I s the moment I saw her, I just, I just I threw myself to her, I wanted to give her anything, even my life. Anyone got any questions about his fight with Tybaot and killing Paris and that side of any, Lisa? [Lisa:] Do you regret between Tybaot and [speaker002:] I just wanted to s revenge for it was supposed to be a fight for me, but I was really angry when he killed my friend so I wanted to revenge Tybaot and suddenly I killed him. Erm about Paris after you killed him why did you Juliet? Good question... Yes. Well I thought was a very decent man, even if I killed him. [LAUGHTER] Erm... he didn't even very much but as soon as he came between me and Juliet, he just I'm lucky I killed him. I just grabbed I just granted... granted his wish and I Thank you very much Romeo. [clapping] Juliet. Sorry about that. Right, any questions for Juliet then? Daniel? [Daniel:] Did you ever feel for Tybaot's death? [speaker002:] Of course I did he was my cousin. Of course I feel for him. But I was upset Romeo banished Why did you Well when my parents were Romeo and I have left my wealth, my family and it was. Anyway. Abigail? Did you always have faith that Romeo would come back for you? Yes I did, I Paul? [LAUGHTER] Well at first but it wouldn't work got to Romeo on time, so no I don't. just like Paris. Well... it was terrible, just think I was already married and your parents come up to you and say oh, you've got to marry someone else. How would you feel? Erm Catherine? [Dexter:] Why do you think Romeo [speaker002:] Well then my parents would have to accept it wouldn't they, they would have to have face face face up to the fact that I wasn't already married. Right, erm Erm when you went to what would you have resorted to if you didn't know I would have killed myself. Okay [LAUGHTER] well Matthew? [James:] Did you really think there was a nightingale [speaker002:] Well no, I knew it was a lark, but I didn't want Romeo to go. Excellent, well done. [clapping] Right Friar Lawrence then please. Well, in a way it wasn't dangerous I'd say, it was a very worked plan and it would have worked if the letter had got there, so I know it was going to work and I would not say it was dangerous. Okay Pardon? No, I wouldn't say because in a way I've saved her life. She's just that if she didn't take that potion of mine she would have killed herself anyway. So I did save her life. Okay, er What was your thought of Friar Lawrence couldn't get the letter to Romeo? Well when, when Friar Lawrence returned when he was meant to be giving the letter to Romeo, I was just devastated, I did I just didn't know what to do so all I could do was rush down to the graveyard and try and stop Romeo, by the time I was there it was too late. Right, thank you. Thanks very much. [clapping] Mercutio then. Do you hate Romeo coming between you and Tybaot when you were fighting? No, I don't hate Romeo, but he was my friend and he just wanted to keep the peace. I may he may I may have died in the end but still, you know he wanted to keep the peace and wanted to be his friend. Right, Abigail? after Well Romeo was although he wanted to keep the peace, he was a chicken so I had to... stick up for him cos I don I don't like people doing that to my friends. He says Romeo was a chicken. Do you agree with that? Why do you think, I mean in the fight didn't he. Well that doesn't necessarily mean he's chicken does it? It sometimes takes more courage to say no, I don't want to you than to get into the fight yeah. Right, Lisa? [Lisa:] that Romeo was in love with Juliet so. [speaker002:] Right yes but even if, even if Romeo took marriage, the fact doesn't always mean you're chicken does it just say let's talk about it instead. Catherine? [Dexter:] Why do you think Romeo [speaker002:] Well erm cos I like playing jokes and everything. I think they just thought I'm the type of person who'd go too far and... you know do a joke like that, but I'm not. Okay, last question. Mercutio, why do you always act so foolish? [LAUGHTER] I just want to live life to the full you know, enjoy myself, go round, you know. Right, thank you very much Mercutio. [clapping] Tybaot. angry, aggressive Tybaot.. What do you get out of I like it, it gives you a lot of fun and pleasure. It's like... you like... do ballet dancing, I do fighting. [LAUGHTER] Ballet dancing [LAUGHTER] Right erm, Eva? [Graham:] Why should you [speaker002:] Pardon? [Graham:] Why do you Why did you go out of the way to kill Romeo? [speaker002:] Cos I felt like it. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, he killed Romeo because he was in the opposite house, he was an enemy Mm wasn't he Montague really. Yeah. Mark? [Martina:] Why when Mercutio assaulted you did you try to fight the enemy instead of Mercutio? [speaker002:] Cos I Why? Cos I do, gets on my nerves. Can you remember when there was a bit of scuffle between Tybaot and Romeo earlier on? Once, once. Well yeah and because he talked to the He didn't like the way Romeo... gate crashed the Yeah I know. When Romeo said something to you, could you forgive Romeo? I don't think so, cos I've never liked him ever, even if he did get married to Juliet. Okay, thank you very much Tybaot. [clapping] The last one the nurse please. Right, go on. Why weren't erm everyone and the father and mother were calling Juliet, Juliet instead of when Juliet's did you just sort of Romeo? Yes. Why? Well because I thought Paris was better for her, cos Romeo's just a going killing people and especially her cousin. I know how much her cousin means to her. Thank you. Jane? [Paul:] At the beginning of the play when you was dead set on erm getting married and was sort of arranging it, why, why su such a change of heart. [speaker002:] Well cos of what Romeo did and anyway I didn't know about how much Paris wants to marry her. What means Well what would you expect when, when one of your loved ones died, you'd be very hurt and upset. Romeo was I mean Juliet was like a child to me. Juliet would still be alive. Could you repeat that please. Would you ever, would you ever Juliet alive? No, she was like a child to me. Okay, thank you and Catherine? [Dexter:] Weren't you scared that you were being [speaker002:] Well yes... I would be. Last question What do you think of Romeo taking Juliet away from you? Well happiness then what I can give her. Okay, thank you very much. [clapping] Some excellent questions raised there. Very good good way. Now I was looking through some brochures about erm productions of Romeo and Juliet, I haven't found one yet that's on before May. I want to try and get one before May before the exam, but there is a superb production on i the summer, it's on June and July and it's at an open-air theatre erm in Lincolnshire and what people do is they go and take a picnic and you sort of take your rug and sit there and cos it it'll be hot in the summer it would be really nice and you watch it outdoors and it's in this big stately home which is in it's own grounds and there's gift shops and restaurants and bars and... obviously won't go in the bars but [LAUGHTER] you know there's lo it's beautiful and like a big stately home you can wander round the gardens for a bit and then go and watch the performance and if it rains then there's a canopy you can pull the canopy over like at Wimbledon and you know it's a really nice day. Now I said Mr Nichol I'd to take you to that erm but the only thing is it's after the... so I don't know how you feel if you'd if you would rather see a performance before the exam, or you would rather see that one after the exam, or... two. [LAUGHTER] The thing is I mean if there's only a handful of you want to go, we can maybe get the mini bus and I could just take ten of you. If you didn't all want to go, you know you don't have to go, but then I could just take maybe ten or fifteen of you, but how many will be interested in going to the one in the summer in this lovely out-door theatre? Right, hands down. How many would want to go to one before May before the exam? Right, and how many would want to go to both? Oh excellent, right. Okay. So I'll try and get something sorted before May, if not then we'll go to the one in July, it'll be red it should be red hot in July... and it's a really nice day and if we make a day of it, then we can take a picnic and you know it's very so pleasant. We went with the sixth formers las last summer we went to see The Tempest and it's such a beautiful place you know, it's you're outdoors but it's quite weird the way they do it, because you're like in a canopy but the actual stage it outdoors, so you're covered but you get a bit cold and you need to take woollies and things, it can get a bit cold out there, but it should be nice in the summer. So we'll definitely get, get something. But it wouldn't be cheap the tickets, it's quite an expensive place to go to, but it would be well worth it, as it would be a good production. Okay. Examination paper.... Our councils are drawn from society on... the bring that into modern day life erm... our councils are drawn from all sections of society the Sanhedrin purely represent... representatives of the Jewish Community their elders, their leaders, their priests, their religious lay people, all... were represented on this highest authority this council. What kind of people what you expect to see on the local council in Nottingham? er well respected people councils. Yeah, but what kind of people, what kind of people give their give me some of the different types of people Well. What, pardon? Wealthy people. Wealthy people. Wealthy? Do you reckon? Do you reckon? Middle aged people. Middle aged people. Yes. People from different levels of society. Men. Do you mean what do you mean by different levels of society oh men oh right, sorry I was a bit slow on that one, just, just It, it tends to be men, yeah, it's more men No I don't think so. [LAUGHTER] let's get out of this conversation. What were you saying Matthew? Yeah, give me some examples. [Craig:] a communal [speaker002:] Right. [Craig:] A manager. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Craig:] And a shop floor worker. [speaker002:] A shop floor worker good, yeah. Skilled, semi-skilled, non-skilled workers see the different levels of... of livelihood that you see to be measured on sort of thing... and er... therefore you've gotta good way of representing this society as a whole haven't you. The decisions that have to be made generally speaking. Local councils do help to direct communities and that's what the Sanhedrin were hoping that they could do too, they advised their communities. There are also there for very serious reasons too, sorry were you going to say something Jacqueline? Sorry I couldn't quite get that. [Lisa:] shop floor. [speaker002:] Not many people from the shop floor. Well, I mean you may be right I can't be I'm not I'm not absolutely certain myself but er it would be nice to think that we were represented at a local authority level, yeah, by different cross-sections of our community. You can't all be company directors, some of us are gonna have to be shop floor workers aren't we.... People making decisions for you at that level, but the point I'm trying to make is our society's much more complicated and much more sophisticated now in the way that arrangements are made, the decision making for the community. You do have you have local government and you have different political parties represented within that local government structure as well. We've also got you know that kind of a your national government what not that higher level. Er you've got people who were representing the community that's as far as law and order is concerned... er making decisions. Our society's very complex in that... that erm in that sense, the effect that you feel is break the law erm you know if you want certain services, we're supposed to have a structure in our society which is which is catered for, which caters for all eventualities. Now it's a system you go through if you break the law, you know we have an education system which is organised for us by our local community who builds the school, who runs the school, who's on the governors of those schools. The structures are there for the individual to respond to the community and in a helpful way sometimes. Sometimes if you've made a mistake and the parallel I'm drawing is with the Jewish... community in Jesus time. He would he'd been identified as a character that was at least stirring up trouble, but gradually this filtered through to the authorities. So what they did was they sent people out to listen to him, you've got evidence of that as early on as Chapter One and Chapter Two. Early suggested people was... just checking him out, finding out what's going on... they'd send the feelers out.... Erm... and when it was established that there was something serious here to... to question, they went and arrested him. The authorities arrested him so he got that kind of... and erm and then they started to ask him questions. Now... the authority of the community was carried by the Sanhedrin they brought him to what is... what they accepted as a trial erm... they'd assessed that something was going against their structures, and as I've already said... religious life was the most important thing... he'd broken it seems a religious law and the council the court the gathering together of the seventy members of the Sanhedrin were going to in a serious sort of way check this out, check this accusation out.... right so it was kind of it was a religious accusation. What was the accusation Andrew?... What were the religious leaders worried about? That they gathered together their Sanhedrin, their court and they brought him to it. [Stephen:] Jesus was gonna was gonna take take over their power. [speaker002:] I think that's an implication... of what they were accusing him of, but were they bringing him to trial for. You come to trial and you've been accused of something, what were they accusing him of? Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah. Claiming to be the Messiah. Anything else they accused him of, that's the key point, that was the key issue. Blasphemy. Blasphemy, claiming to be God. The same sort of thing... isn't it, you know this is this is the technical description for what it was. Yes? tear down the temple Tearing down the temple... and re-building it in three days. Extraordinary claims that were... were being made by Jesus. So he was brought to trial... so they could test out this, this whole situation, get to the bottom of it and the, the high priest Kiathas was the central figure in organising the troops. Yes? What is she for? Because er I was I was trying I was told yesterday that I didn't do Who told you that? Mr sir Right, would you do your religious studies er work in this lesson because I know nothing about that and er neither does Mrs Chester, so I will check that with Mr later. I'm sure that he has not said to you that you can do work other than your religious studies at the moment, so that's what you should be doing... but you say he has and we will check it later. Thank you. [door closing] [whispering] Could we just read this little passage then... and er can we share the reading. I'll start it off and then if you don't mind. Let me just point out to you that... last year if you remember they asked you to describe the... the passage where Jesus is crucified, that's 1521 to 31 and I guess they won't do that again this year, but they're likely to pick on a significant passage, significant section then you're asked to relate it... relate... the passage at the end of Mark's Gospel where Jesus is crucified. Well it could be the Jewish trial, it could be the Roman trial. You need to be very familiar with the text, you can't learn it word-for-word for goodness sake, but you certainly are able to identify all the key issues and key aspects of it and that's what you're looking out for, so you could re-tell the story again, you can re-tell the story again yourself accurately, identifying all the key points.... I'll start and then someone else can pick up. I'll read the first two verses. Right then Jesus was taken to the High Priest's house where all the chief priests, the Elders and the Teachers of the Law were gathering. Peter followed from a distance and went into the Court Guard of the High Priest's house. There he sat down with the guards keeping himself warm by the fire. Read on for me David will you David [Daniel:] The Chief Priest and the whole council tried to find some evidence against Jesus in order to put him to death. They could not find any. Many witnesses told lies against Jesus against Jesus not even they however could make their stories agree. [speaker002:] Thank you. Just hold it there. There are some very important bits that we need to be making a... a note of there, and many witnesses told lies against Jesus, but their stories didn't agree, they tried to find some evidence against him in order to put him to death Mark tells us, but they couldn't find any. Right, the story's building up to a sort of crescendo erm... the... the Sanhedrin was saying he heard him say I will tear down this temple which men have made and after three days I will build one that is not made by men... with our hindsight, with our knowledge of what went on. We're living after the event aren't we. We know what he was saying there, the three days gives it away... the death on the Friday and the Resurrection on the Sunday, right. We know what he's talking about. Put yourself in the in the shoes of the Sanhedrin, they didn't know what he was talking about, they're probably talking literally. You know and if you'd seen the size of the temple there were thinking well, come on, and the trouble that they'd gone through over their history to establish er a capital city with a temple as the main feature, they were not happy about him saying that.... Right.... But what Jesus was referring to was not the material kingdom, but the spiritual kingdom.... Can you imagine taking all those thousands of years trying to get your people together and then somebody saying well I'm gonna destroy your capital city and rebuild it.... Read on for us Paul please. [clears throat] and questioned Jesus as to the accusation. Jesus kept quiet and would not say a word and again the High Priest questioned him. Are you the Messiah the Son of the Blessed God? Just hold it there Paul. Quite important isn't it. So the High Priest brings it all together and says what's your answer. You're here, you're on trial, you can see him being accused of all sorts of things, defend yourself, job your opportunity to clarify in front of us, we represent the people. Tell us, what is this all about? You know simple language, they wanted to know where he was coming from, but Jesus it says would not say a word in answer to any of those accusations, but then the High Priest says are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed God.... Read on for us Lena sixty two. Hold it there Lena. What is your decision... because these couple of verses erm are essential to our understanding of... what happens next. We need to understand the position of the Sanhedrin, Jesus is really representing... great changes in their tradition... great... a great revolution really and we know that what he was doing was... was sort of getting Christianity to grow out of Judaism, but it meant that Judaism had to move to one side. Jesus was saying it's a fulfilment of all the Old Testament prophecy... that referred to becoming a Messiah. He even uses words which come from the Old Testament Book of Daniel and they recognised that and here they've got this pathetic looking individual in front of them threatening to destroy the temple, threatening to this, that and the other and here you've got this power Sanhedrin... who can't recognise him really as the Messiah and yet... there's a ring of truth about some of things that he's talking about. The one in particular I'm referring to you will see we'd all see the Son of Man,they they'd recognised that... reference to himself Son of Man, they'd recognised that... because that comes out of the Old Testament Book of Daniel doesn't it, the Son of Man... seated on the right hand of the Almighty coming with the clouds of heaven. It's a sort of reference to the way the Messiah will come and rescue and save God's people.... So there's a ring of truth in what Jesus is saying here. I would guess that some of the Sanhedrin were confused. Some of them would be outraged... We certainly know that one of them was convinced by Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Sanhedrin... and you know that, that later on we're told of Joseph of Arimathea, but what did he do Michael do you know, does anybody know what Joseph of Arimathea did? Yes? He offered his... so there you have some insight into the members of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea northern areas of er Judaea, Arimathea is and don't forget worried, worried Jerusalem now, this, this group together Yes Matthew. [Craig:] What did he do? [speaker002:] He er what I was just gonna say, he offered his tomb, his burying place to Jesus after he'd died, it's not the action of a man who totally rejected Jesus claims to be the Messiah. So he tells you that there was some, some sympathy towards Jesus through this on the Sanhedrin.... Just read on for us James please when you've finished yawning. It's a bit hot there in the sun isn't it. Sending you to sleep is it? [James:] Mm. [speaker002:] On you go James, good lad. [James:] some of them, some of them began to spit on Jesus and they blind folded him. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. Now I just want to explain something to you that you can that you can put down in your notes in any way that you like, that you can understand best yourself. You were not there, I was not there... Saint Mark or the person who wrote this Gospel was not there... Someone has recorded this for us... looking back on it. We know that Saint Mark... we know that the Gospel writer... recorded all this information about thirty years after the death of Jesus. This had happened thirty years previously. We know that he'd tried to gather all his sources of information together as best he possibly could and he wrote his Gospel very quickly. It's a it's a brief and abrupt account of the events of Jesus life.... But he wasn't there... he was gathering information together about the incident. His number one source of information is Peter... Mark the Gospel writer has an intention, he has a purpose within this Gospel. He has a duty, his Christian duty that he's adopted... to communicate this so that other Christians can understand what was happening to Jesus.... and there's so much of the kind of change in the last few chapters leading up to this which suddenly got Jesus being spat at... Saint Mark is telling us that Jesus has now been condemned. Look at the change. Go back a few chapters, visit Jesus in Kaburdian and Galilee. Go and see the reaction of the people who witnessed him cure the blind man... Blind Bartiamaus or Bethsiedum Go and check out what the woman who with a haemorrhage had to say about him. Here we've got him being spat at and condemned to death. Now Saint Marcus had to put all that lot together to make it look right and make it make sense, with hindsight, bringing all the important pieces together. What he's saying to us here is that... that there is... a reason that Jesus had been condemned and that those who had the authority to do so had carried out their work. They've done it swiftly... as possibly, too quick to be just. He was taken out of the garden at put on trial, all the others were gathered together swiftly... Normally a Jewish trial would take much longer than this. I think it looks like... he wanted to get the thing over and done with before the Sabbath.... But Mark has to put all the package together.... and it's extraordinary to notice to make a note of the fact that from being a defender of the people, a popular character, Jesus now is hitting rock bottom. From now on you'll see him... taking a part. He'll be ridiculed, he'll be mocked, he'll be scourged, you know something reserved for the people who were really being taught a lesson. You're being totally stripped of all your honour... your credibility... can you see that contrast that Mark is introducing us to. Jesus is absolutely hitting the floor this, rock bottom. He's heading towards death, he's in the clutches of the authorities and probably the common people taking a few steps back. Even his closest friends are going whoa, hold on, can't take the Sanhedrin on, hold on, look at the temple, look at the temple guards, look at this it's too much for me. Can't Jesus. We've seen him do it before, but he doesn't, doesn't say a word.... Probably that knocked Peter back a little bit, we'll read on a little bit later... but Peter fully abandons Jesus let's face it. He's not the guy he said he was. You know Jesus has been... the leader who'd been taken away from his group, very clever tactical ploy. Jesus had come to Jerusalem, the capital of Judaism to take on the religious authorities and at this point in time in this Gospel it looks like he's lost, gonna be dead in a couple of days.... It looks like he's lost and Mark paints a very clear picture of the suffering, the... the insults the mockery. He can't, he can't be treated much, much worse, he's not even guilty of anything except good. He does this deliberately to show that you too as a Christian will hit the floor. People will mock you, they'll, they'll hit you, they'll slap you, they'll accuse you of things that you you're not guilty of... they may even kill you.... And he's setting the scene for the Resurrection... he's setting the setting the scene for his triumph out of despair. A lot of things are yet to happen from where we've just left off the story.... Hello Mr I've just sent them back, they said they were coming looking for their guitar lessons. Whether that's true or not I've got to follow up there's no one here for them. I've sent them back to both in their trainers. They're er approaching your room now. Right, I've spoken to both of them first thing this morning about their trainers. I'll keep an eye out for them and have a word with them. Thanks Okay, hopefully you've had a chance to make, to make notes on that. I was I was looking at the syllabus last night and I was working out how much we've got to do yet and where we are an and I really do feel confident that no matter where you are in your course work situation, that if w if we planned the thing right and we sort it out between now and the summer,tha that we could well get a good few Grade A's in here and obviously work it well. I think to the top end, then those of you who were struggling around with D syndrome at moment, you know let's get you pushed in there. Erm... cos it's possible. Erm... here they are now. [LAUGHTER] Children, would you like to wave at them. [LAUGHTER] Erm... I have a sneaking suspicion that, that the area in they focus on... and it it's... the obvious was to think about it is Resurrection. That's just the kind of gut feeling that I have. If you wanna know anything about Christianity... Yes come in gentlemen. no blazer. No maths lesson unless you get up there pretty quick now. You, why haven't you got your change shoes on? Guiseppe, do see my problem? Everybody's doing it now. Bring your note in the morning about this and wear your shoes tomorrow morning. [door closing] Erm it's pretty obvious really you wanna know anything about Christianity, you don't know it, let's put it this way, you don't know anything about Christianity unless you know something about Resurrection. Okay, make sure you spell it right.... But that that's a little thought that I have, a gut feeling... you know... an instinct... erm that might be an area that could be chosen concentrated on this year. Erm we'll look at that again, that's enough on that. Any comments please any thoughts on anything anybody wants to say... at this point? No? Right, that's the Jewish trial. The thing to remember is... your last little note is that it seems to be that they're accusing him of blasphemy as it was said. They were accusing him of claiming to be God.... Right, they're accusing him to be... claiming to be God and they actually say... they actually say their decision is that he's guilty and should be put to death, they've condemned him to death. That's as far as their authority goes.... Can't kill him themselves. Why can't they kill him themselves Matthew? Because? Why haven't they got the authority. Pardon? Why didn't the Romans have to do it? government. Absolutely right.... You allow a certain amount of control to a group of people whose country you're occupying. The Romans were occupying the Jews country. They wanted to keep them happy, they let them carry on with their religion, it didn't interest them... but when it comes down to serious things like killing erm political agitators, the Romans wanted to deal with that themselves. You can you understand that? Right we're talking about the way you control the country, and the way you control the people. The Romans were very good at that, ultimately they just they were just a powerful military force, but they were also very clever about the way they... they kept their influence in various countries. What I want you to look for in the next little passage that we look at is the way that the Sanhedrin present their case to Pontius Pilate. What did they accuse him of in front of Pontius Pilate, that's what we're looking for in the Roman trial next to come. Is it a religious accusation or is it a political accusation. We'll leave it at that and we'll pick it up again next time because we've done enough on that. Could you get out th the stuff be careful of the recording equipment there but er. What stuff? Just under that, under there. Chapter eleven question please. Just different voices, so you know if you Hello Mum Not all odd stuff. Hello, Mum. [LAUGHTER] Erm it's for... it 's it's in order that, that in the nineties... we have a historical record, I think I'm I think I'm saying this right, there is a historical record of the kind of words that are being introduced into the into our language into our vocabulary like for example i.e. Like what ya, you old cockney sparrow. [LAUGHTER] Yes, well that only, only from the point of view that they're being used so often, that they're also almost becoming... well can you think of any words that, that are that are... that have been introduced recently into our vocabulary that have that have that have been acceptable in common language? You know that you wouldn't expect to see there normally, I mean the one I'm always on about is when everybody says you know that, that the thing is the thing is bad you know and when you say it's that, it's actually good. Wicked confusing isn't it. Perhaps they're changing the language round back to front. [LAUGHTER] Right, so when you're You know you've sensitive to popular culture haven't you to understand that. You know without thinking about it. Whe when they're actually describing something like homework oh that's cool, they don't really mean it as good, or do they? [LAUGHTER] Right, the Chapter questions. Use sellotape. Right you've done the answers to question one Dominic, excellent, well done, you're one of the best students in the class. Well you see you don't even know what chapter, I mean you know re rewind that recording, I'm sure it'll there'll be evidence on that on how many times I said Chapter eleven, question. Notts County Football Club are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. [LAUGHTER] It's not all their bedrooms as well. Lena put your clothes back on. [LAUGHTER] You know like for example if I said come on chaps thank you, erm what you're actually doing then is confessing to me that you haven't finish off Chapter ten questions. That's enough of that, hang on. Let me ask these questions then we'll like agree. We'll take it from here, I think I'd like to carry on Chapter eleven. The reason for that is of course that this is significant to the syllabus that we're doing, you know Chapter eleven is the beginning of Jesus coming into Jerusalem in his final... final weeks. You're on Chapter eleven you see she's carrying on, getting on with it. Perhaps if you... perhaps if you hang on a minute, erm... well Jacqueline want wants me to answer one question for her. me to answer one question by the time I answer those three questions, where is everybody gonna be up to. Right, we'll begin... we'll begin on Chapter eleven... all right there's a compromise, the last question on Chapter ten. Sir We'll come back to that, we'll come back to that. two meanings. Yeah. Yes, I suppose so. Climax, a kind of climax of his mission, yeah. Yeah. Christians have hindsight, you're looking at it, you're looking at it two thousand years later and you can see him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, knowing that he's going to a victory. Describe the events... Describe the events. Right, okay, erm... the last question Chapter ten, the Leader. This healing miracle restored a blind man's sight. Jesus had come to restore mankind's sight symbolism.... Erm as with many, many parts of the Gospel you're expected... you're expected to be able to look more deeply than on the surface.... Jesus had so much to communicate to people in such a small amount of time as we've realised... yes you can look upon the miracle of the cure of the blind man's sight. I think this, this one refers to Blind doesn't it. Yes. Well Blind that particular incident is actually packed with information. Mark tells us so much about who Jesus is and what he's come for just by showing us that one miracle... but what I'm suggesting to you here is that you can look for greater meaning in it, further symbolism.... Bartiamaus insisted... he wanted his sight back.... No... Often when we ask someone do you understand, can you see what I mean, okay. That kind of symbolism is often used isn't it. You know our eyes are very important to us, what he says, get a bit frustrated with you, you've not understood what they're tr trying to explain, they say come on, open your eyes will you, it's there, it's in front of you. All right? You're just on the approaches to Jerusalem, you're just coming in to Jerusalem... right? I think this happened in... when did it happen this in... between and Jericho, somewhere around that region, where was it Jericho. Jericho. He's on his way to Jerusalem where people will refuse to see... they will refuse to see... what Jesus means.... Their eyes are open and yet they won't see. if you look at the cure of erm... th the Blind Man of Bethsiedum which happened a little earlier, a similar thing happens when Jesus cures his sight, he can't see at first and Jesus has to do some more work on him with spit, spittle and er you know the, but there's something behind that it's not just a er... a nature miracle, sorry a healing miracle overcoming physical ailments, that's spectacular in itself... but the can take something else on board here without the attitude of people and their willingness to accept who Jesus was and what his details of participant Bartiamaus had been given... the vision he'd been given was more than just his eyesight. Okay? Because of his experience, he'd been taken further into God's Kingdom, he'd been given that vision into God's Kingdom, now that's more than just been given your eyesight, cos there's a lot of people will see, who have their eyesight intact, but refuse to have the vision that was necessary to accept Jesus, new kingdom. Yes Jacqueline? Sorry, again? [Lisa:] The one where that's the Bethsiedum one isn't it? [speaker002:] That's the Bethsiedum one yeah. [Lisa:] That's not in Chapter ten? [speaker002:] No it's not, I did say it's somewhere earlier on in the Gospel, but you weren't listening to me. the teacher or they maybe look stupid on the recording machine, that's all right. Right, Chapter Eleven then. Ten minutes later. I wanted to point this out at this point, you know if we just studied that particular area in the Gospel the Jewish trial. We've gone back er a few days now, Jesus is actually arriving in Jerusalem and the, the heading that's given... in... in the Good News Gospel here is the answer to that question... isn't it Matthew? What is that answer Matthew? [Craig:] Erm. [speaker002:] A sign of a good teacher that you know ask a student a question, point out to him that he's not been paying attention. [Craig:] I do my [speaker002:] You know who you were talking to. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, the answer to question one of Chapter Eleven is contained in the title of that Chapter. What is it Matthew? [Craig:] sir. [speaker002:] So, how is the beginning of this Chapter described. It's described as a triumph, it's described as a victory. We have Jesus arriving having won something. It's interesting to wonder what he's won.... Having read what you've just done.... Right what does this suggest about his arrival? Thank you. It suggests that he was extremely popular with the people if you read the passage.... As they approached Jerusalem near the towns of and they came to the of olives, Jesus have decided ahead. These instructions go to the village there ahead of you, as soon you get there you'll find a colt tied up that's never been ridden, right, a donkey. Untie it, bring it here and if someone asks you why you're doing that, tell them that the master needs it and we'll send it back at once. So they went found a found a colt... in the street, tied it to the door of the houses, there was tying it, some of the by-standers asked them what are you doing, untying that colt. They answered just as Jesus had told them and the men let them go. They brought the colt to Jesus the animals and Jesus got on. Many people spread their on the road, while others put branches in the fields and spread them on the road. The people who were in front and those who followed behind began to shout Praise God, God bless him, name of the Lord, God bless the coming Kingdom of King David our Father, Praise God. These are the affirmations that were being made as Jesus trotted in Jerusalem with this little donkey, his followers gathered all around him looking... from the heights of the walls of Jerusalem, there must have been one or two curious, astonished, worried eyes, the Sanhedrin, the Chief Elders, She has but I've not had time to er assess her yet. I'm going to inform erm a friend of mine who might be able to do that for us. on the er It certainly will cost them an awful lot of money, hundreds. Religious Studies would be very interested to hear all this [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] No comments. [LAUGHTER] Erm... Where was I? [LAUGHTER] . there; s a lot of significance with. That's right,th the Jews thank you James, you were listening. You know a fervent Jew would always want to get to the centre of their faith, visit there. In fact it was, it was... it was required of them to get to Jerusalem at the time of the Passover for example. Erm... it's important that you understand that Jerusalem was very close to the hearts of every Jew. This was where Jesus was going, because he knew that to take... to take something over and let's face it Jesus was looking to take over... take something over... to fulfil something and he was hoping to fulfil Judaism to take it over, to fulfil it, he had to go to where it mattered. If you wanna take this country over, go to the Houses of Parliament. Thank you, thank you very much. Steady boys, steady on. Find your way out. Er well you one or two wise guys who have dropped in one or two interesting comments, but you know they'll just cut those out. [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] Hello, hello.... What's this thing for? Why's it here? No, well what is it here? I don't know Just don't talk right. Hello. recording now. What's going on? Well we're actually recording. Yeah right. The lesson is being recorded. Tha that gentleman's just on the table for me and er... the lesson is being recorded. We're not sure why research Right, so I'm going to carry on with anyway... and we're going to start by looking at pages forty two and forty three, forty two... and as you can see the units is entitled Shouldn't Do it to a Dog. [LAUGHTER] and if you look in the blue box, bottom left to begin with it says this chapter looks at the way in which human beings treat animals. We have immense power over nature, do we use it responsibly? What would animals say about us if they could speak, what would they do to us if they have the chance? There are suggestions talking and writing after each item. Well it so happens that I did intend you to do a paramount of talking this afternoon, so it's quite convenient in a way that we are being recorded. First of all I'd just like you to have a look at the well what there is on pages forty two and three some of there are cartoons, photographs, adverts... just have a quick look at them, six altogether.... Now the instructions are in the box, the white box bottom right on page forty three. The visuals on these two pages were chosen to illustrate different aspects of the relationship between animals and people and you are asked to talk about these issues. Number one... what is the point being made in each one... point, even if it's a cartoon that there will be a point of some sort. Number two, which do you think is the most striking and why, the choice there, you might not agree with the person next to you, but it doesn't matter, discuss it. Number three, do you think any of them is in bad taste, if so what are your reasons? Bad taste, do you, do you really rather disapprove anything that it is in any of them, do you think it inappropriate, not on, is there something in bad taste? And number four, if you had to have two or three images to this collage, what would you choose and why? Do you know that word collage? Any offers? How would you describe collage? pieces together to make a picture. Right, erm, very often it's to do with making up a painting or a picture of some a picture of some kind isn't it, sticking different bits together, so if you get a, a collection of different things which makes a whole, whole with a w right. So, erm you might not get on to number four, if you do, or I tell you to start, can you think of two or three images to add to it which would, which would fit in with the others. See you just start off by going through them one by one and consider what point is being made in each and... those of you who'd like just to move round and join these two ladies. I'll give you about five minutes on that, starting now. Now, what is the point being made in, in each case? We'll, we'll start with a fairly straightforward one, the National Anti-vivisection Society advert. What do you understand by anti- vivisection first of all? That's right yes, er vivisection is erm... well actually to do with the cutting up of animals isn't it, testing, things like cosmetics,medicine medicines and so on, on animals and if you're anti to be that you're against it. So what would you say was the point of the... advert? Rachael? Right,it it's really just expressing disapproval of the idea on this sort of testing isn't it. Did you want to say something Evelyn? [Evelyn:] It's all right saying, it's all right for like the mothers of the animals wouldn't like if their children were killed and your children were killed you wouldn't like that. [speaker001:] Yes,it 's it's presenting the points of view in quite erm... erm a dramatic way, isn't it. It says erm the law still allows to squirt weedkiller in a baby's eyes, inject it with poison, grow cancers on its back, burn its skin off, expose it to radiation and eventually kill it, in unreliable experiments. Then there's a gap before it's no longer it's only an animal. So what in fashion are you given it Claire? [Claire:] make way of an animals like a human being. [speaker001:] You're... that's right you 're you're giving the impression that it's about a human being... then it turns out to be about an animal, now come back to the question what point is being made? But, in brackets but perhaps you shouldn't. Erm yes,i it's er very much er erm an advert which is trying to discourage the deception. Now, what about the other two on that page? Did you get anywhere with what point is being made in cartoons Yes. Erm, what do you call that? Sarcasm exactly. fantastic parrot and it costs an arm and a leg. Catherine? Yeah,i it it's based almost you kn you know what I mean by cliche? Based on the idea of a cliche, an often repeated phrase isn't it oh it cost me an arm and a leg, erm which isn't meant to be taken literally. Obviously when when you say it is, just means well means what Lawrence? I if I say it cost you an arm and a leg? Yeah, cost me a lot, cost me a great deal of money. That's right. So it's erm I suppose part of the humour lies in taking the metaphorical to the literal isn't it. When you say it cost me an arm and a leg, you're thinking in word pictures if you like... it's a metaphor and er in the in the picture it's by the er Long John by the Long John Silver figure having not only one leg, but also one arm as well. Ruins it doesn't it, a cartoon when you, when you analyse it like that I think. One of the problems with humour is you've got to make an immediate impact sometimes if you try to analyse it into too much detail, it spoils it. Anyway we might as well go ahead and spoil the other one now. What did you make of that one? I felt a bit sorry for him after I shot his elephant. shot an elephant Right, no it it's all right to stuff the elephant, but... but we thought we'd better not stop the human being as well. Nicholas? [Nicholas:] Erm it's like if you shoot an animal it'll effect people the people the person who owns it or actually round it, it effects people as well as the animals. [speaker001:] Good point, yes.... Any anything else on the elephant one?... Right, what about the top one on page forty three?... Any thoughts on that one?...... Describe what you see there. It's like a dead small dog that's been A dead small dog that's been all dressed up and everything. There's a really big dog there because you can see its legs... and we can see some human legs, or at least boots. Right. Something to do with sizes and everything. Does that strike a chord Michael? No. People so we're we'll almost as if it's like a lady and... look after it so that it won't get old and have nasty sneezes, that sort of idea. Yes I I'm... I I'm deliberately using that that sort of language because I think... I think that that is the suggestion in the future. Any other ideas that anybody had about the little dog?... Can I... Can I anticipate what er we might say in the bad taste bit then, did anybody think one was in... in bad taste?... No? Was no concern one way or the other?... Do you it's all to do with I suppose whether you whether you approve of dressing dogs up in little coats and... I know this one doesn't have a coat or does it? It does, does it? So it's got its coat on as well probably matching the hat.... So what's your what's your reaction to the to the picture then? Edward? [Edward:] dress a dog up for your own amusement if that's what it's for. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You think it's for the amusement for the benefit of the owner rather than the dog, quite an interesting point. David? Pardon? James, ah. [LAUGHTER] James the First. [David:] You know like er [speaker001:] I thought it was the name of the dog, sorry [LAUGHTER] yeah. It's er a comment on the inability of some people right,t to distinguish to the human of animals of perhaps suggesting that humans are really more important. that humans are more important, but some people think of animals as being more important. You know there's a lot more moneys given to the R S P Cs R S P C A than the N S P C C... people and so on same sort of ideas. Yes, right.... [clears throat] was suggesting that er this person might not be able to have any children of her own and is therefore turning the... the little dog into a kind of child. Right, what about the beware of the dog one?... The voice? Correct. Oh, I see... dog, dog strikes back, dog takes charge, dog bites man, no. Yes, Sarah? It could be that they're just classing the dog as a member of the family, so they do... really. It's just a member of the family though is it? No, part of the family's, a big part of the family cos they to only getting the man getting very cross about it. I mean if it was me being dog, but. Right. Thank you, Russ? [LAUGHTER] The dog sided with the wife against the man.... Yes. There is erm a chap down our road had a had a huge dog and when he when he took it for a walk, you know he used to he used to stagger along with him and my wife used to say there he goes again, the do what was it she used to say, the dog's taking the man for a walk again... and it i do you think it's that sort of idea you know that... in some households th the dog takes over from the er sort of central figure, even the dominant figure, things hinge round the dog, you know the holiday what shall we do with the dog, pouring down with rain but the dog has to go out for its walk and somebody has to take it. Tha that's how... from it, but certainly er the dog has sided with the woman and thrown the man out rather than the other way round.... and the other cartoon, the final one with the the is a bit more straightforward, we're talking about Claire? [cough] Yes, erm... tha that's that's an explanation really of what is in the... picture and somebody comments on it in in in order to suggest what the point being made is. Naomi? [Evelyn:] you have to kill the animal [speaker001:] That's right. Erm... I, I, I think there's an erm an imply of suggesting disapproval of the ivory trade er in... in the cartoon.... Let's move on to the er... to the third question there, just any quick points that anybody wants to make erm not necessarily things you talked about, something that occurs to you know perhaps. Do you think that any of them... any of those six were in bade taste you know not... not really... not really very pleasant shall we say?... What about if I suggested to you that some people would think that being anti-vivisection was in bad taste, how would you answer the point? Do you agree at all Sarah, or would you There's a tiny baby in the photo. Oh Sarah is suggesting disapproval because... because of what the baby in the photo... if you like would be subjected to... like a photograph album. Yes, fair enough. What were you going to say Catherine? You've forgotten. Yeah, we'll come ba I'll come back to you if you remember. Any other points about the vivisection one?... What about the little dog oh, sorry Russ. The end, the end justifies the means, you know that phrase. Well you do know [LAUGHTER] th th that you're saying that they want to make a particular point strongly and er that... that might involve... erm... an elephant in of bad taste in order to make it striking and to make people look at it and think about it.... Erm, I'll just check with Catherine whether the thought's come back. No? Lost forever? Right. Naomi? [Evelyn:] Erm I just want to say if if it was an animal who was like chained up, would it still be in bad taste. [speaker001:] ... rhetorical question is, you know is it is that a question you wanted to try to answer or are you erm Yeah, just... any any any thoughts on that? Erm it has been suggested I think Naomi's saying on this side of the room that... if there is an element of bad taste because the baby is chained up or whatever and it's in er has had to be placed in an undignified or uncomfortable position in order to be photographed... and Naomi's question. Naomi's question is would it be also would it also be in bad taste if an a if that were a picture of an animal subjected to a sort of... humiliation? Any points? Would it be the same... worse... less bad? What do you think? Katrina? About the same? Do you want to answer your own question before we move on [Evelyn:] Erm [speaker001:] Naomi? [Evelyn:] I don I sir I don't think it's really in bad taste and I know it's terrible but it's it's gotta it's out there to prove the point and it is the only way to prove it the revealing that is erm [speaker001:] And it's really to make people to attract peoples' attention and to make them think about these issues. After all it is the one out of the six that we've spent on might be significant in itself. Let's move on, forty four and five.... On page forty four called the Newcomer.... There's something new in the river the fish said as it swam. It's got no scales, no fins, no gills, it ignores the impossible. There's something new in the trees I heard a bloated thrush sing. It's got no beak, no jaws and no feathers, not even the ghost of a wing. There's something new in the warren said the rabbit to the doe, it's got no fur, no eyes and no claws, yet digs deeper than we dare go. There's something new in the nest said the snow bright polar bear, I saw its shadow on a glacier as it had left no paw marks there. Through the animal kingdom the news was spreading fast. No beak, no claws, no feathers, no scales, no fur, no gills. Lives in the trees and the water, in the soil and the snow and the hills, and he kills and he kills and he kills.... I'll give you a few minutes again just to consider these questions. One, why is it so important for the newcomer. Two erm can you think of an alternative title tell us what it is about. Three is it possible to imagine a world in which humanity does not kill and to kill and to kill. What would it be like... and fourthly, is this poem there to human beings.... And to be fair to you I'm again going to give you a few minutes to talk about that, not quite as long as the other time, then I'll ask you to jot a couple of things down as well as, so I'm just telling you in advance. Okay, start with the first question. Right, it's your You want to ask something? So put the date in the drafting book please. The eighth.... and erm sorry the poem the new poem, but that we'll spell it with a will be correct.... Now in number one I'd just like you to write down... an answer in your own way to this question. What would you say the poem was about?... then in number two... any alternative titles as in number two in the book.... Right er you will have gathered probably that Mark wanted to ask a question I'll let him start written down and also express his concerns here. Mark? [Claire:] first question erm because erm the animals haven't seen a human before because erm they find certain places and neither buildings coming out from cities. [speaker001:] So what did you think the poem was about? [Claire:] ... [sniff] [speaker001:] Was it something to do with man moving out into the world of nature? W what about the concern that you have? [Claire:] Well sir Oh yeah, that it says erm in here er it's got no fur and no eyes. [speaker001:] Yes,Mar Mark wanted you to look at the third line of the third verse where there is a reference to no eyes and wondered whether you have any ideas about that. That man is... lying to animals or nature. Russ? Tha that's the answer to the general question I asked at what the poem'about. You think it's about pollution? [Rachael:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right. Can I just... take any views on the eyes before we take the er the wider view. Gina? You mean the animals can't identify what it is, but they... they feel that whatever is it's leading to their destruction?... Any more ideas on what the poem is about?... Let's have some alternative titles then.... Who's got one? I've got five. You've got five, pass it round then. I've got The Man, The Arrival of Man [LAUGHTER] Yes. Right thank you.... The Arrival of Man. Do... do you think... think the pictures help?... Consider those if that gets us anywhere. Catherine? Some of them are rather like cave paintings aren't they and have they've got this from my a sort of tedious association of the drawings and pictures and er Catherine's it seems to be suggesting that... animals were... around, animals and other creatures were around a long time before human beings and that... human beings are in some ways intruders therefore in their... in their world. We're running out of time as usual, so... if I can just come to that final line to you to... consider and give me some views on them before you go. What do you make of the, the ending of the poem?... and he kills and he kills and he kills. Realistic. It's realistic? Maybe it is, but what does it mean... wh what sort of thing might it refer to... might think of a couple of fairly obvious ones. Monique? Right er... the killing of animals yeah, the killing of animals for example for food. Russ? Be a bit more specific about everything. Human beings just started destroying everything. The earth, ah, so w we we're back to your environmental theme, okay? Has it got three kills, they killed animals for meat, food. They kill animals for food, they kill... everything which erm is affecting the environment, anything else that perhaps animals observing human beings think that they kill. Do it in two words. their habitat. Their habitat. Any, any other guesses as to what my two words might be? Brilliant, thank you. Each other I was also thinking of, I wondered if that was part of the point of the poem as well. I like the other two ideas also. Thank you for your contributions. In front of you is the tape for prosperity. Close your books now. [LAUGHTER] I'm waiting for you to settle down. Right this morning. It's afternoon Miss. No this morning. Stop it. [LAUGHTER] Can I have quiet now, please. Yeah. Right this morning to do and we're going to have the opportunity to do it in a slightly interesting way and you failed miserably because you sat and chatted and didn't get any work done. we got there. Okay. Right. This afternoon Oh please Miss. I gave you an opportunity and you Quiet. Stop talking, Patrick. [LAUGHTER] Stop talking Patrick. Right, so afternoon is the feeding of the five thousand. Right some of you have read it already. [LAUGHTER] There are two miracles in Mark's Gospel. names of those two miracles. Bread and fish. Yes. miracle. That was in Feeding of the four thousand. No, no, no, no, no recording. Quiet. [LAUGHTER] Richard do you have to make those noises? [LAUGHTER] [Nicholas:] Stop it. [speaker001:] Richard, [Nicholas:] Yeah they're [speaker001:] Right, to make sure that you all getting this down, I dictate the notes. [LAUGHTER] [shouting] [shouting] Excuse me, [] [shouting] [LAUGHTER] This is on the tape. [LAUGHTER] Bring it down. [LAUGHTER] Amanda, that's a failure from you and from all of us. [LAUGHTER] Right, the feeding of the five thousand. Yeah, George. So now settle a little. General notes. Wait a minute. Are we going to this? Five thousand's got six Os innit? called the feeding of the five billion. [LAUGHTER] Did you say billion or million? Billion. Six noughts is billion million. Miss what's the sub-title? General notes. The miracle. Miss dictating The way it is normally your voices mingle into the [LAUGHTER] This is the last lesson of the day, Exactly. I can keep you here for another ten minutes and I've got to Now get on with your work or get out of this classroom. [LAUGHTER] I bet everyone wants to do is to get their voices out. Yeah I know [LAUGHTER] Patrick, why are you looking that way? [Michael:] Because [whispering] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Stop it. Outside this classroom. Shut up and get on with your work. [shouting] jam jars [] [LAUGHTER] The details in this story. Wait a minute [LAUGHTER] The details. In this story. Details in this story. Is well like this. I know, but I thought [LAUGHTER] Story. Show... [LAUGHTER] That possibly. Possibly. Possibly. An An Told the story. told the story? Yes. Miss, Miss. I'll speak first. [LAUGHTER] Patrick. [Michael:] What? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [shouting] I'll decide how to teach this lesson, thank you [] [LAUGHTER] Right, e g the grass being green. [LAUGHTER] more detail miss out from the story. Miss, the grass has always been green. [LAUGHTER] Let me explain. In that particularly hot climate, it is quite often yellow. [LAUGHTER] Shh. I was writing that sentence. Well catch up. I'm trying to, but I can't hear what she's saying. [LAUGHTER] Shh. Quiet in the classroom. Jesus is also seen to be like Moses. Yeah [sneeze] Shut up. [LAUGHTER] I don't mind. Have you got that sentence down? Yes. At his request Miss how do you spell request? [spelling] R E Q U E S T [] [Edward:] [spelling] R E Q U E S T [] [speaker001:] Philip, shut up. [LAUGHTER] At his request God sent who? How do you spell God? [LAUGHTER] Miss why if they've only got one. If you'd like me to work miracles Sorry Miss, I was just asking. [LAUGHTER] Quiet. What you'll get out to do some brain work. [mimicking] miracles, what are we going to tell him [] [LAUGHTER] The miracle also The miracle also... reflects... the idea... of the banquet How do you spell that then? [spelling] B A N Q U E T [] Miss that's why you're doing this get it all down. Miss chalk... and that is terrible of you implying that Miss is only doing it to get her voice on the recorder. [LAUGHTER] bring it out on the charts innit. [LAUGHTER] Specially with me on it. If you'd be quiet, they'll be plenty of opportunity for you to

[speaker001:] God, but, no, for ease of er, management, what we'll do is we'll stick to the teams on the tables where you are now. Erm, working in, what, one team of four and two teams of three. Can I ask you though to devise a name that you as a team would wish to be known by, and then I can start er, on the scoreboard. So? March , [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, have you got a name? [speaker001:] The Losers [Carol:] The Losers [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] I should ban that as er, totally unacceptable. [speaker001:] Middlemarch, because No, I mean [clears throat], The Experts, [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] With you, were you all watching? the Experts, yes. [speaker001:] They are mystic, I don't [Carol:] Did you miss it last night then? [speaker001:] Last night. [Carol:] So is it Middlemarch or Experts? [speaker001:] [clears throat] Sorry? Middlemarch, it's Middlemarch. It's to say anything else. Young males, march. [Carol:] And the third team? [speaker001:] Wall Street. [Carol:] Wall Street, alright. Good.... Now all good teams, all good quizzes have erm, rules. [speaker001:] And phrases. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Come on this is Abbey Life, come on. Erm, all quizzes have rules, there's basically just one rule, that anything I say or do is right, but, and that's the rules. Yes, it seems reasonable? Deathly silence. [speaker001:] You're the ombudsman. [Carol:] That explains it a bit more then. [speaker001:] What's the difference between you. [Carol:] I'll ask you a question, if you get it right, without any help from your team or anybody else, you're going to get three points for your team. If you need a little bit of nudging by the people working with you, er, then there's a possible two points for the team. If you then pick up a bonus, because the team couldn't answer it maybe, er, you will get a bonus for your team. However, I am not fair, because the world isn't fair. So if for any reason I feel like adding on some points I will do, and equally I'll decide to take some points off if I feel like it. So, as I say, we go back to rule one, everything I do is right. Yes? O K any questions?... Excellent. Looking at me totally confused, that's the best way to start. Right, David, we'll start with you then. We're talking Covermaster here, what's the purpose of the Covermaster Plan? [David:] Description of it, or purpose of it? [Carol:] The purpose. [David:] The purpose. Er, er, protection. [Carol:] Protection, there you are. Nothing difficult. Right John, can you define the Covermaster Plan for me? [John:] Flexible, whole of life,... assure [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Almost, [LAUGHTER] Anything, to add to that? Flexible, whole of life, assurance, anything else? [John:] Er, la, la, la, la [Carol:] A little bit of help from your friend. [speaker001:] Unit linked. [Carol:] Unit linked. [John:] Oh, yes, yes, yes, right. [Carol:] Yes, O K, so just the two, for Middlemarch. Er, Gerald, here am I, Mrs. Joe Public, and you've got to explain to me unit linking. [Gerald:] [clears throat] Hm, mm, er, basically, er, what actually happens, is with your premiums, each month it buys X amount of units, [Carol:] Right, [Gerald:] Er, those units are used to purchase X amount of life cover, depending on how much you w, er, assurance you want in your claim, how much is to go towards savings, how much to go towards, whatever you want in your plan. The price of the units are actually allocated, erm, to each of those, in individual areas. [Carol:] Erm, sort of. Sort of, let's think, er, tell me more about the units themselves. [Gerald:] Well the units themselves are actually erm, bought each month. [Carol:] Right. [Gerald:] And they're actually bought in erm, at the offer price. [Carol:] Right. [Gerald:] And what you have to, what actually happens, you have what is known as an offer price, and a bid price. [Carol:] Right. [Gerald:] The offer price is when you buy into the plan, and bid price is when you actually erm, sell. [Carol:] O K, excellent, excellent. I think I'll erm, I'll give you three marks for it, but I'll give you the opportunity for three bonus marks now, because here am I, Mrs. Public, and I didn't understand a word of that. I want to know what unit linking will do for me. Will I actually be buying a unit linking life assurance plan, and not a with profits life assurance plan. So what's the benefits for me, in the unit linking? [Gerald:] The benefits for you in unit linking is actually it's going to relate to like the cost of inflation, [Carol:] Yes, good. [Gerald:] Erm, [whistling] Erm, a, a, no, not really, they're qualifying times, erm, [Carol:] O K, you pick up a bonus for that, anybody else on the team come up with something positive about unit linking that'll make me say, yes, I like this one? [speaker001:] You er,ma, it balances out the er, benefits from like the whole of the term and it's not necessarily, like a with profits system, you get a lot of bonuses at the very end. [Gerald:] Right, actually that's very true, that's a v, that's a very good point. Yes, certainly, I'll give you a point for that. Anybody else? David have you got anything to add? [speaker001:] No not really, No, look he's gone to sleep then there, [LAUGHTER], [Carol:] I agree he's gone to sleep. Anybody on this table anything to add? [speaker001:] Eas,eas, easy travel, easier opportunity for people to, to spread their investment. It's an easier way into the stock... market, [Carol:] So I can invest in the Stock Market without having to be knowledgeable about it? [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] And I can spread my investment. I like both of those, in fact I'll give you two marks for that. Because, two things there. I can spread the risk between all the various er, homes for the unit linking, funding in invests in, in various assets. What type of assets? this time, what type of assets do er, funds invest in? [speaker001:] Property. [Carol:] Property, [speaker001:] Equity Stocks [Carol:] Equity and stocks [speaker001:] Fixed interest [Carol:] Fixed interest arrangements, O K, bonus for that team, well done. So I can spread the risk by using a variety of investment areas. It's exactly what you said, and the other thing you said was? [speaker001:] I can't remember now, spread the risk, and [Carol:] I don't have to get do I? [speaker001:] No [Carol:] I don't have to make the decisions. Who's making the decisions? [speaker001:] Fund manager [Carol:] Fund manager, another bonus, excellent, yes. O K. So we must be getting round to Sue's question. [Sue:] Oh [Carol:] Right Sue, what does it mean, a whole of life policy? [Sue:] Erm, it means that, you take out the policy for the whole of you life, no matter how long you live, so it keeps going until you die. [Carol:] Yes, O K. Erm, [speaker001:] No that's right. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] No, I'll leave it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] You worked hard for that, you didn't get any points. Life's not fair, anyway, is it? Right, a whole of life, yes, it pays out when you die. It's not something, like the one term assurance, you know, when you have a policy for ten years, and if you live longer than the ten years, tough. You know. Just your hard luck. O K, erm, minimum and maximum ages at entry. Janet? [Janet:] Erm, seventeen and seventy one. Oh, er, seventy. Minimum age at entry? [Carol:] yes. [Janet:] Seventeen. [Carol:] Seventeen, the maximum age? [Janet:] Seventy one,... next birthday. [Carol:] Next birthday, next birthday. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Only the two, you missed off the next birthday. I will give them a bonus for not making a fuss about losing their marks earlier. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, June, er... four ways that you can write the policy? [June:] Erm, on joint life. [Carol:] Joint life. [June:] Erm, own life [Carol:] yes [June:] Joint life, last survivor [Carol:] yes [June:] And life of the [Carol:] Excellent, a little bit of the first one you just said, joint life, if you want to be [speaker001:] First claim First claim. [Carol:] First claim, O K, only the two marks, because he jumped in too quickly there, so you get docked one of your marks you see. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, er, Philip, Philip. Erm, what's the minimum monthly and annual level premium? [Philip:] Er, minimum monthly premium is twenty pounds [Carol:] Mhm [Philip:] And the minimum annual premium is two hundred. [Carol:] Good. Ilias, if the minimum monthly premium is twenty pound a month, level and the minimum annual premium is two hundred pound a month, does that mean if I pay annually I get a discount, it costs me less? [Ilias:] Yes [Carol:] Yes,... Andrew, what do you reckon? If yes, at Leyton Buzzard they give discount to pay annually, what do they do in, can't remember, Hanley? [speaker001:] Well no, because they reckon they'd be, invested two hundred pounds right at the very beginning, you'd most probably make the, the f, fall short over the rest of the year, in the investment. [Carol:] You're still sort of saying I get a discount really, you're still saying it's only going to cost me two hundred a year. Yes? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. Yes, I suppose so, yes. [Carol:] What about in,... Haverford West? [speaker001:] Well I would have thought you'd get a discount if you're buying units in the fund then you benefit due to paying annually, if, if you paid in a lump sum erm, you're going to have more units, you know, at the start. [Carol:] Which is almost like saying I get a discount. [speaker001:] No, you're still paying the same, it's just [Carol:] Ah, let me put it more clearly, because I don't think I've put the question clearly enough. Let's say, that me as an individual, if I was erm, buying a Covermaster Plan, for twenty pound a month, the minimum premium, let's say I could get fifty thousand pounds worth of cover.... If I wanted to pay annually would I still get fifty thousand pounds worth of cover, or would I have to pay two hundred and forty pounds per year? That's changing the question slightly, so, let's go back to Ilias, what do you reckon? [Ilias:] Two hundred. [Carol:] Pardon? [Ilias:] Two hundred and you get [Carol:] Two hundred, so you still, you still reckon, you reckon it's a discount? [Ilias:] yes [Carol:] O K, er, let's go back to Andrew, how much would I pay for my fifty thousand pounds of cover if I wanted to pay annually, will it cost me two hundred or two forty? [speaker001:] Two hundred, I still think, yes. [Carol:] Two hundred, and who's the other person I asked? [speaker001:] Two hundred. [Carol:] Two hundred, anybody disagree?... [speaker001:] Go on then. [Carol:] Sue do you disagree? [Sue:] I disagree. [Carol:] You can have a point for disagreeing because you're right. Yes, erm, you get what you pay for. Right, so, if it was going to cost me twenty pound a month for fifty thousand pounds worth of life cover, and I wanted to pay it annually, I'd have to pay it twelve times, I'd have to pay two hundred and forty pounds. Minimum premiums are just the smallest amount that Abbey as a company can make a profit on. So, we could have somebody start at twenty pound a month and we know we can make a profit and we can provide a good service to the clients, a good level of cover. When it comes to annually, we will accept two hundred pounds per year as a minimum premium, but in this case, they'd probably get about forty five thousand pounds worth of cover. They'd get less cover. You get what you pay for in this world. O K, any, any questions? [speaker001:] Is the difference then because they're saving it in [Carol:] It's, it's yes, in, in that respect. We can make a profit from two hundred pounds a year. Er, you might just say well why don't we pass that on to the clients, but we don't. [speaker001:] Right. [Carol:] They, they've got to pay twelve times. I think it just gets too complicated when you look at the various contracts. If you have different levels of payment, it just gets very, very complicated. Any fu, everybody happy with that? Excellent. Who had the last question? [speaker001:] Ilias Ilias [Carol:] Who had the last question? [speaker001:] Ilias [Carol:] Excellent. A bonus for being honest on this team, and being awake. So it must be Andrew, your question, alright. Erm, what's the minimum monthly and annual escalating premium?... Erm, Philip or somebody gave me the level premium. [speaker001:] Well the minimum monthly is still twenty pounds. [Carol:] Right, so what's the minimum annually, the minimum we can make a profit on? [speaker001:] I say that's still, still at, still at two hundred pounds again. [Carol:] Absolutely, tried, I tried to put you off, but I didn't manage it did I. O K, good. So, we must be, are we back with you David, or with you Sue? Back with David, ah, right. How does the escalating premium work? [David:] Er, increases by ten percent simple interest per year, for the first five years, and then stays level. [Carol:] Excellent, well done. Well done. Right. Let's, yes, Shirley? Can I have the last question? How does the escalating premium work then Shirley? Just as John said. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] John, you got my name wrong. [Carol:] Next question, John, er, right.... Erm, what's the current, it's a bit d, difficult terminology here, what's the current cost taken out of the fund each month for expenses? The expense charge is usually it's called, but just occasionally it comes out as policy fee. Erm, how much is it? [John:] What the actual fee itself? [Carol:] Yes, in pounds and pence. [John:] Oh, one pound nineteen? [Carol:] One pound nineteen, what do you reckon Kim? [David:] I thought it was a percentage? [Carol:] Ah, no, this is the bit that comes out annually, [David:] Right [Carol:] I know what you're thinking about? What do you reckon table at the top? [speaker001:] Yes, we'll go along with one nineteen. [Carol:] You'll go along with one nineteen. What about the others? Yes, you'll go along with it. Yes, absolutely right, yes, well done. One, two, three. [speaker001:] Was that me or [Carol:] No [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, erm, ah, I think the best thing we can do is to look at the rate book for this question because you may have remembered it from er, you may not. Kim, could I ask you to pass those, the Covermaster rate books that under please. [speaker001:] You obviously keep taking the rate [Carol:] No, but, but this, this problem, this was on, this was on actually. [speaker001:] Have we got one yet? [Carol:] Yes, you haven't had them yet. Er, and we'll be looking at them later. That's great, thank's Kim. Is the on the C V T, but again it's, it's easier to look at something when we're talking about this, so I'm going to ask you to look at the Covermaster rate book, which doesn't have page numbers, but I want you to find the allocation to units table which is about four or five pages in. One, two, no, I'm wrong, three pages in. Allocation to units table.... That's right. Yes, that's right.... Right, everybody there. [speaker001:] Oh, yes, yes. [Carol:] Allocation to units, third page in. Now, this concept is the same whatever product we're talking about, and we'll be talking about four products this weeks, and several more next week. And I've got to tell you it's erm, an area which they ask questions about very frequently. So if we can be quite clear in our minds from now, you might get questions on it tomorrow, you might get questions on it at some point in the future during the week, but they inevitably come at some point. And we're talking about allocation to units. We're talking about how much of the client's premium, let's say he was paying thirty pounds a month, actually ends buying units in his fund. Now if you look at that table, you can see that it's set out, on the left-hand side, the age at entry, and the top, whether he pays his premiums escalating, or level. So the very simple question is, if I wanted a higher allocation to units, who am I asking the question to, Sue is it yours. Yes, it must be yours, Sue or something. Yes, it's yours now. If I wanted to get the highest allocation to units would I pay level or escalating premiums by looking at that table? [Sue:] Level [Carol:] Level. Absolutely right. The question they will ask you, very frequently is, during the first years of the plan, there is a reduced allocation to units. They buy less units with the client's premiums. One the reasons we can see, one the things that affects the allocation you can see, is whether they pay level or escalating. You can see on the Covermaster, on an escalating plan, it's twenty percent each year for the first four years. So only twenty percent, only one fifth of this client's premium is going to buy units in those first four years. So only six pounds a month is actually going to get invested in his fund in the first four years. After that the total amounts, or even a bit more if we look at it, erm, what over factor, Janet, no John, it must be John's turn now, affects the allocation to units in those first four years by looking at that table. One is where they pay in escalating or level, the other, what else affects the allocation?... Have you got it from the tables. [speaker001:] Is age. [Carol:] It's age, yes, [John:] I would have said that, I would have said that, I thought it was too easy. [Carol:] I know, I know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Well I like to make things easy for you John. [John:] Thank you. [Carol:] Er, two marks. Because you can see if the client's up to the age of forty, he gets a higher erm, a reduced allocation, but if he's seventy, he gets actually forty percent allocated in the first year, and he gets er, a full allocation from then on. So those two factors affect how much of the client's premium buys units in the first four years. Whether they pay level or escalating premiums and his age. Income might insurance his age, and other things it might be the term of the policy, we're looking at how long he pays it, because if you think, Covermaster, his age affects the term. If somebody takes a Covermaster plan out at twenty five, we expect them to be paying it for a long time, if he takes it out at fifty five, we expect him to pay less. Philip? [Philip:] Th, the ag, the maximum age of entry is seventy one, next birthday isn't it? [Carol:] That's right. [Philip:] Why on the, hm, why on the chart do they show it seventy one to a hundred and five? [Carol:] Because people can still be paying their premiums once they go past seventy one, they haven't got to cash it in. [Philip:] So you're say, ah, right, no it's just a, er, it says next birthday, at entry it says [Carol:] It says in the first b, yes well, mm, it doesn't make sense, because they can't have it after seventy one can they? er, initially. O K, so those are the two factors that affect the allocation to units in the first four years. The next question's got to be to Kim, if only six pounds of his premium is buying units in, if he has an escalating plan in his first four years, what's the other twenty four pounds going towards? [David:] Administration [Carol:] Administration, yes, which is a nice way of putting it. Another way of putting it? [David:] Erm, the associate's commission. [Carol:] Absolutely. One, two, three and a bonus. It's the type of client, life assurance clients are the type of client where the commission's all come out in the first four years. Which is why the clients are sold a plan inappropriately and they cash it in, they get very little back. Your commissions are paid by the client over those first four years. Erm, that accounts for the reduced allocation and the setting up fees as well. But it's main, it's mainly your commission. Now if you've got somebody who you are protecting their family, and they'll be paying that plan twenty five years or more, the fact that they pay commissions out for the first four years is immaterial, what they want is peace of mind and protection. Erm, it could have been spread out over the whole twenty five years as it is with other products, but in life assurance at the moment, it's out of those first four years. But you can see why if you're selling inappropriately, if you sell someone for example, a savings plan, and they cash it in the first four years, and they don't even get what they paid in it, how they're going to be very annoyed, because from what they could see, they were getting a savings plan. If it runs for the ten years, they're going to out-perform the banks and building societies, and they're going to be very happy. So appropriately sold, there is no problem, but if it's not appropriately sold, you can see that people really do, don't get back what they put in. So that's the allocation to units. Erm, and I've just asked John, so I must be now with, no I've just asked Kim, so I must be now with Philip. Yes? Philip, looking at that page, erm, after the first four years, two other factors affect the allocation to units, and that information is in the bottom of that second page. Can you give me one of them. And obviously Janet, you'll be giving me the other one, so if you can take the time to look at it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] Erm, well it's the er, year ruler. [Carol:] Absolutely, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] Yes, it's the sex. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] It's the sex [] Do you sex [Philip:] It's the sex that does it [Carol:] It's the sex that does it. What's this, or something. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Philip:] Or even if? [Carol:] Or even if. It great that you've got me totally confused here. [Philip:] Erm. [Carol:] It actually is part of the answer that if, [LAUGHTER] you quite amaze me [] [Philip:] Yes, a combination of er, of age and sex really. Er,... a male, a male up to erm, well, a male or female up to erm. [Carol:] If you jump, yes you're looking at the right place, but you've jumped ahead. What is determined by the client's age and gender? [Philip:] Right, oh, the er, the amount of erm, additional units or looking [Carol:] Not quite, not quite, he's jumped ahead a little bit, can you help him out on the table? [speaker001:] Waiver of premium. [Carol:] It's waiver of premium. Absolutely, so it's the cost of waiver of premium. Waiver of premium you know, as a benefit, you know about waiver of premium. I'll pick it up later. But it's the one thing that actually comes out of the premium before the units are bought, because it's a percentage. And it's a percentage of the premium so it's a fixed amount. And if you look at the bottom of that table, somebody up to the age of thirty nine, will pay two percent of their premium erm, for the waiver of premium benefit. Anybody from forty to forty nine, will pay three percent and then they've got this strange idea that ladies over the age of fifty are going to have more time off work through illness, so they're going to charge us four percent, and the men three percent. Er, that's the cost to waiver of premiums. So Janet, your question, which is not as I in, intimated it might be at all, so you, you can be well annoyed, erm, if you're setting up a, a joint life policy with waiver premium on both people, and the wife is fifty one, and the husband is forty, how much will be deducted from their units according to waiver of premiums? [Janet:] Take the wife's age, the wife is forty three? [Carol:] The, the wife is fifty one, and the husband is forty. [Janet:] Oh, I get, yes I see, yes. Erm,... seven percent. [Carol:] Seven percent, you have to add them together. You have to add the cost of waiver on a joint life policy, you have to add, add the costs together. Absolutely. Good. She even got round giving me the wrong answer first, which I thought was quite subtle. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Well done. Erm, so the next question must come to, to John, or is it Kim, it must be Andrew. It must be Andrew, right. Looking at that page, once the plan has been set up, after those first four years, whether the client has waiver of premium or not, actually affects the allocations to units. We've established that's a nice table there to tell you. There's one other factor, at the bottom of that, er page, will tell you something about the allocation to units. [speaker001:] If they don't have the waiver of premiums they get more units, because the more money goes into the er, whatsit. [Carol:] Absolutely true. But it wasn't what I was asking, so I'm going to give you the points, but it's absolutely true. So we must move on to Philip, no? [Philip:] Not again. [Carol:] Not again, it must be John then, John? [John:] Oh, sorry. [clears throat] [Carol:] No, no, it's good. David [speaker001:] David, it's David. You ought to get a bonus scheme up just for that. [Carol:] No, no, no, no, no, no. That's too generous. Erm, what other factor, other than whether they have waiver of premium or not affects the allocation to units. Well wriggled there Andrew, that was er, a good wriggling effort. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Read another page. [David:] Total premium. [Carol:] Ah right, what about the total premium? [David:] Well whether it's up to, seven hundred and seventy nine pounds ninety nine P per annum, [Carol:] yes [David:] Erm, if it's up to that, it's a hundred and three percent. [Carol:] Right. [David:] And if it's seven hundred and eighty per annum, or seventy pounds per month, er, and, and over, it's a hundred and four. [Carol:] Absolutely, how much they pay? Throughout our policies, anybody paying up to seventy eight pounds a month gets one allocation, anybody who can afford, and will pay more than seventy eight pounds a month will get a higher allocation. An extra one percent. Right, this will keep coming up throughout the er, products. Can we just be clear in our minds before we move on, how it affects. We're talking about the allocation of the premium to buy units. Two factors affect it in the first four years. That's whether you pay level or escalating and the age of the client. After that, throughout the rest of the term, they have a reduced allocation if they have waiver of premium, and they have an increased allocation if they pay more than seventy eight pounds a month, or seven hundred and eighty pounds a year. So the premium level and whether or not they have wa, waiver of the premium affects it. Er, next question, John? You have a client who has waiver of premium [sound goes quiet] And he's still paying his premium for his Covermaster, will we actually give him more units? [John:] No [Carol:] No we don't. We don't actually make up, he still carries on paying the same, we don't, we don't increase the allocation, when he gets to sixty, or sixty five or whenever. So, where are we John. One, two, three, well done. Any questions on allocations before we move on? [speaker001:] Yes, how do you decide on a hundred and three or a hundred or four for allocation? [Carol:] Just to be awkward. I mean, literally, you'll get, er, you invest the thirty thousand units, er, and you'll get a hundred and three pounds extra percent of the money of the money invested. So if three percent is, what, I don't know, what is it, ninety P or something? You get an extra ninety P, buying units for you. Alright. Erm, we've just asked John so we must be now with Kim, are we? No we're not, we're with Gerald [speaker001:] Gerald [Carol:] Gerald, yes, absolutely. Erm, we have a client, we do have clients, we have lots of client. We have a client, who shall we have as the client? Erm, right, we'll have Shirley as the client, and we're a life company and we're looking at the cost of providing Shirley with life cover. So we're looking at the amount we take out of her plan each month to cover for life cover. We call it the life cover charge, or technically, er, a phrase I'm sure you're used it, the mortality reduction. What factors will we take into account when we're assessing the cost of life cover for Shirley? [Gerald:] We take into account her age. [Carol:] Age, yes. [Gerald:] Erm, the level of life cover required. [Carol:] Absolutely. The level of cover required, good. [Gerald:] Erm, medical factors. [Carol:] Health, yes. [Gerald:] Erm, occupation. [Carol:] Occupation, yes. [Gerald:] Erm, there's one more I think. [Carol:] So we look at the age, look at the level of cover, health, you look healthy Shirley, are you in good health? Right,occ, you don't do any dangerous occupations, not a steel scaffolder or anything? You know? No [Gerald:] I think sex on premiums. [Carol:] Er, the premiums, we do take into account sex or gender, yes. Erm, it actually affects the, the rate. [Gerald:] Yes [Carol:] But it is taken into account if we're talking about the cost of life cover.... One more. Anybody on the table? [speaker001:] Hobbies and pastimes. [Carol:] Hobbies and pastimes. Have you got any dangerous pastimes, Shirley? I go hand-gliding. You go hand-gliding. [LAUGHTER] Right [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] One, two. Just the two, because er, Andrew helped you out. Good. Actually, er, as a point, if you find a client who goes hand-gliding, who goes stock car racing, don't always assume that they're going to be rated, you just submit it to the underwriters, and they make their own decision. I've got a client who races stock cars, but as he only does it three or four times a year, they don't actually charge him any extra at all. So, it's not essential, but we will look at it. Good, well done. Right, erm, Philip, Susan [Sue:] It's me I think. [Carol:] Sue, Sue, yes? Erm, when can a client claim under the terminal illness ben, benefit? What illnesses do you mean? No not what illnesses, terminal illness. [Sue:] Oh, Terminal illness, oh, sorry. [Carol:] When can he, when can he claim? [Sue:] Erm, if he's been going to er, erm, in the unlikely, er, twelve months, that it's unlikely that he's going to have more than twelve months to live. [Carol:] yes, if he's been diagnosed as er, as a terminal illness. I E, he's likely to die within the next twelve months. Then the sum assured is payable, just as if he had actually had died. O K, good. [speaker001:] Sorry, just a quick question there. The, there's two [clears throat], there's two parts of it,tw, a diagnosis and twelve months? [Carol:] Well,th, the definition of a terminal illness as regards that is, according to the underwriters, is that the client's life is likely to die in the next twelve months. [speaker001:] Right, O K, I understood it was the time factor that was, right. [Carol:] Yes, that's when, that's when they put no limit on it. Right, erm, Reviews. Erm, reviews, reviews, we're up, Sue, so it must be, [speaker001:] John. John [Carol:] John again, right. When are the reviews held on a Covermaster Plan? [John:] Ten, five and one. [Carol:] Ten, five and one, mm, interesting. Explain. [John:] Oh, right. [LAUGHTER] Erm, on the tenth anniversary of the [Carol:] Yes, good. [John:] The policy. [Carol:] yes [John:] [sigh] Every five years after the age of... fifty or fifty five, I can't remember quite which, and then one year after the age of, after sixty five. [Carol:] Right, and one other time. [John:] Er, pass. [speaker001:] The end of the erm, [John:] yes, right [speaker001:] The selected time, the time, the selected period [Carol:] The selected period, good. The first review's after ten years, then every five years up to the age of sixty five, then annually. But if you get to the end of the selected period, there's always one. [speaker001:] But, I, I misunderstood, I obviously got it wrong then. I thought it was at the tenth anniversary, every five years after that, I didn't realise that came into, John said it was. [Carol:] yes, yes. [speaker001:] Up to the age of sixty five. [Carol:] Up to the age of sixty five, and then [speaker001:] Oh I'm sorry I misunderstood John, then I've [Carol:] And then, and then annually after that. [speaker001:] yes, I thought he said, after the age of fifty five, [John:] I did [speaker001:] He did, yes Yes, yes. Some people have [LAUGHTER] Then the extra five for up [John:] There you have, let's have it back for honesty. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] No, no, you were only honest because they made you be honest. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, I er, I heard you say the right answer, so I was obviously incorrect. But is everybody quite clear then? The first one at ten, every five years up to the age of sixty five, then annually, and there's one at the end of the selected period. O K. Good, Kim, erm, how does the client, oh, what is the selected period? [David:] It's defined at the onset of the policy. [Carol:] Mhm [David:] The ten period being the qualifying period. [Carol:] So for a minimum of ten years. yes. [David:] Or whatever, erm, the client chooses, to cover the specific period of their life, that they need life cover for. [Carol:] Absolutely right, good. So, in effect, it could look like that, yes?.... Where we have a client who has a need for the first ten years for it looks like a hundred and ninety thousand pounds worth of life cover, at the end of the ten year period, the need is reduced, maybe the children have left home, so sum assu, assured reduces down to, in this case, it looks like to be about fifty thousand for the rest of the time. Good, well done. [speaker001:] Can I ask another quick question? In practice, does that happen very often? That people will, will deliberately put it down half way through the term? [Carol:] Well let's, let's before we answer that, let me ask erm, Philip a question. We get to the end of the selected period, [Philip:] Yes [Carol:] What options does the client have? [Philip:] [clears throat] Well he can er, he can come down to the original reduced figure. [Carol:] Absolutely, yes [Philip:] Er, or with erm, with further, further underwriting, he can er, subject to further underwriting, he can er, choose er, an additional [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] He's chewing his, he's chewing [] [Carol:] He's woffling, he's woffling, he's woffling. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] So well, how do we do it? He can either erm, continue at the same level, but he pays more premiums. Yes, he can continue at that level of a hundred and ninety but he's obviously going to have to pay more, because he's only paid for it for ten years, or he can reduce it down to the original amount. [Philip:] Is that, that's not what I said is it? [Carol:] No it's not what you said. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] I'm not going to repeat what you said. But to allow you to get a bonus point, if he continues at the same level, will we require further annualising from him. For a hundred and ninety thousand? [speaker001:] No [Philip:] No [Carol:] Who answered? [speaker001:] These two. I didn't, I didn't. [Carol:] I thought the three of you did very well thank you, because you're absolutely right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] You don't need any further underwriting to carry on at that level, but you can do. [speaker001:] Two bonus points for ventriloquism and [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] No, why not, why not. Come on yes, one for ventriloquism. O K. Er, where am I, Janet, have you got missed out somewhere along the line, but never mind. [speaker001:] And you, oh, I see, I'm sorry, [Carol:] No, I'd noticed, it's Janet's turn now, but I think I missed you out, oh well, anyway, forget it. Erm, what happens if a client has, has established er, a Covermaster Plan for a selected period, and then for whatever reason, has a need to increase that cover. Maybe has another child, maybe a better lifestyle that they need to protect. What can they actually do? [Janet:] They do, they probably ask for erm, [Carol:] Well what,wh, can they actually increase this on their, their plan, increase their plan further?... Table can you help? [speaker001:] yes yes [Carol:] They can increase their plan further, what effect would that actually have to the plan though? To the selected period? [Janet:] Reduce the plan. [speaker001:] To the selected period. [Carol:] Mm [John:] Ah, oh Christ now, [Carol:] He's going, woffle time, woffle time, are we ready? [John:] I'm sorry, I'm thinking about it, right. Erm, the selected period gets adjusted then. [Carol:] It does yes. [John:] No but I mean it becomes, it becomes shorter. [Carol:] It becomes shorter, yes, you're absolutely right.... And this scenario, we've got a client who started with er, it looks like a hundred and fifty thousand pounds worth of life cover, after five years he had a further need, perhaps erm, a further child or, as I say, er, a lifestyle increase or whatever. So he wanted more life cover, but he obviously on his old plan couldn't sustain that to the same period of time, so he had it for a shorter period of time, the ten years, and when it dropped, he dropped down again. So what you actually do, is have a higher level of cover but for a shorter selected period, to fit in with your circumstances. O K. Good, I think we'll give you the marks for that one then John. Er, we must now be with Andrew. Question, you go to see Mr. and Mrs. Client tonight, and they need, let's say they need a hundred thousand pounds worth of life cover, and to fit their lifestyle, or their children, their family, they need it for eighteen years, they can't afford that. Would you give them a hundred thousand pounds worth of life cover for a shorter period, looking at them making up the difference perhaps later when they could afford it, or would you give them initially a reduced amount of life cover, say eighty thousand, for the eighteen years? What do you think would constitute best advice? ..., I think perhaps give them the, the shorter years. You're absolutely right, er, you're absolutely right, so where are you? One, two, three, yes. If this is what they need now, this is what you give them, er, on the understanding that perhaps they only have it for fifteen or ten years, but in fifteen or ten years' time, they might well be able to afford to extend it and pay more. So it makes sense doesn't it? You're doing er, the best for your clients. Good. Well done. Erm, right, oh, er, John, it must be, must be John, because er, must be David, yes. [speaker001:] I think you left it too late Might even be John. [Carol:] David erm, [speaker001:] He's this Welsh twit on the right [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Did he, did he [speaker001:] No, no, he did get the right to I, I'd ask the [Carol:] It must be definitely a point off for racism here. Absolutely. [speaker001:] I was just trying to help you really. [LAUGHTER] you see, I was trying to help you. [Carol:] You were trying to help me put the names in place, without finishing it off. Yes, bit of nice creeping there, but it didn't work, John. O K, so David, at what stage can you claim under a terminal illness benefit, for a joint life, last survivor plan? [David:] At what stage can you claim for a terminal [Carol:] Illness benefit on a joint life, last survivor plan? [David:] ... You can't get it. [Carol:] You're absolutely right. Sue was desperate to tell you, but, absolutely desperate. Not available on a joint life, last survivor plan. You're absolutely right. Good. Erm, at what age must the selected period finish, Philip? It starts a minimum of ten years, but what age must it always finish by? [Philip:] Thirty five. [Carol:] Er, that's how long it can be, but it, as regards the client's age? It can be, it can run from ten to thirty five years, but it can't run past a client being a certain age? Team? [speaker001:] Sixty five Sixty Fifty five It's one of those three anyway. [Carol:] Any, any, er, anybody else? Everybody put up your hands. Fifty five? Sixty five? [speaker001:] Seventy five. [Carol:] Seventy five. [speaker001:] Sixty [Carol:] Sixty [speaker001:] Seventy one [Carol:] Seventy one Anybody anything else? [speaker001:] Fifty eight and a half. [Carol:] O K, that's I'm sorry, that won't go, go for that one. Well done, seventy five. Bonus for Gerald. Taken at the end. Er, but I will give you a mark for saying it's ten to thirty five years because you're absolutely right, it can be established for thirty five years. Right, O K, erm, Gerald, policy reviews. Policy reviews. Why are they carried out? [Gerald:] Erm, to make sure that the sum assured that the clients have got, or the funds can actually meet it, erm, [Carol:] Absolutely, absolutely, you're looking at... the sum assured that the client has got, being supported by the fund. I E, you can take the charges out regularly and sustain the life cover. So who actually holds the reviews? The company or the client? [Gerald:] Er, the company has to review [Carol:] The company. It's a company thing. You will actually hold a policy review with your client, I E, you're going to see them each year at least, but the policy reviews as regards the company are held to make sure there's enough growth in the client's funds to sustain all the charges. Excellent. So, er, Sue, what amount of growth are we looking at, traditionally or historically with Abbey to er, be able to do that? [Sue:] Er, eight point two five. [Carol:] Eight point two five. These questions are obviously getting far too easy, you're er, answering them so well. How many funds, Shirley, may the clients invest in initially, if they choose?... Well we all [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Well we all put five initially, but we were told you could put it up to ten. Initially. Five Five, you're right. Initially, five. Once the policy's established, up to ten. O K. Kim, what fund would you recommend your clients put their money, in er, with a, with a Covermaster Plan? [David:] A managed fund. [Carol:] A managed fund, absolutely. Right, erm, what happens then, Philip, if the client says to you, and it's unlikely with Covermaster, but it's the same principle if you're talking of a savings plan or a pension, erm, I don't like the idea of my money being invested in a managed fund, I've been reading the financial press, and I'm very interested and excited at the thought of the Japanese market going up through the roof. So I would like to invest my Covermaster money in the Japanese funds. Can you do that? What would you do? What's the circumstances? How would you cover your back etcetera, etcetera, [Philip:] Tell him, you can only, you can only advise you to actually invest in the managed fund. [Carol:] But I'm your client saying I don't want that advice. [Philip:] If you choose, if you choose to invest in other funds, it's entirely up to you again. The choice is yours. [Carol:] Yes, right. But how are you going to cover your back if I? [Philip:] I'd certainly need to er, er, need to make a comment to that effect on the back binding at the end of the side [Carol:] Absolutely. Because how does Philip know that in five years' time, I'm not going to ring him up and say, hey you know when you recommended me to invest my money in the Japanese fund, well it's just gone through the bottom of the market. That was bad advice, etcetera, etcetera. So, if the clients want to invest in a fund, they can do. You can advise them whether they decide your advice that's fine, but what you must do is get them to s, you must write it on the plan your future document, the advice you gave, what plan you decided to do, and I would actually get him to initial it as well. O K? Good. So we now must be with John. John, when can the client change their fund allocation? So let's say this client has got his thirty pounds a month Covermaster, er, and he's decided that he wants to invest his Covermaster in a Japan fund. And he wants to change his allocation, what do we mean by that, and when can he do it? [John:] I don't know when he can do it. [Carol:] Think now. [speaker001:] At any time. [Carol:] At any time. And what does it actually mean? I think it's,... it's probably put into any chosen fund. Let's say he wants a managed fund. O K. Now what are we actually talking about by changing? Something being, the, the units in one fund at the market price, for the er, units in the other fund Oh you mean tip in those into, from the Japanese fund into the managed fund. Tipping them from one bucket to the next? [speaker001:] Well [Carol:] Mm [speaker001:] Change them from fund to fund. [Carol:] Change them from fund to fund, mm. A bit of confusion. Can you help out this table? [Gerald:] Erm, the value, what you'd actually do, the value of the Japanese fund at the bid price,, would be allocated to the, at the bid price to the managed fund. It would be the amount of I would anticipate the managed fund. [Carol:] And what do we call that? [Gerald:] We call it a bid to bid, or a switch fund [Carol:] Switching. Which was a wonderful explanation, and absolutely true. Do you know how much it costs, Gerald, to switch? [Gerald:] Around eigh, nothing for the first one, and eighteen pounds after that one. [Carol:] No it's all eighteen actually. It's all eighteen. Brilliant answer, but he didn't answer the question I asked. [Gerald:] Which was? [Carol:] I asked about changing. [LAUGHTER] That's absolutely true about switching. What about changing? [speaker001:] Future allocations. Future [Carol:] Future allocations, yes. So here we are in January, my premiums are going into the Japanese fund, I want next month's, February's to go into the managed, that's just changing, and it leaves these Japanese funds invested, here. If I want to switch I tip from one bucket to the other, we'll charge him eighteen pounds, and we're absolutely right, as Gerald says, we do it on a bid to bid basis. So changing into the future, you can do it at any time, what it actually means, it'll affects the next month's premiums, and switching, er, it's on a bid to bid basis, from one fund to the other, and we charge them eighteen pounds per occasion. [Gerald:] Can I have a point please. [Carol:] What's this? Shall I give him a point? [speaker001:] no, no [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] We said no, I, I, I'm doing everything that table says at the moment, so no, but I'm going to give one to Shirley because she got most of the answer and then she came back with the right bit at the end as well. So, right, switching and changing. O K. Erm, let me just have a quick look through and see what I've asked those, definitely. Right, er, David, surrender value? end of side one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Would you like a bit of advice? [speaker001:] No, no,, we knew, we knew. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] We said no, oh, I, I, I'm doing everything that table says at the moment, so no, but I'm going to give one to Shirley because she got most of the answer and then she came back with the right bit at the end as well. So, right, switching and changing. O K. Erm, let me just have a quick look through and see what I've asked first, definitely. Right, er, David, surrender value. A client wants to take, to cash in their plan, what do they get? [David:] What do they get? They get the bid price of the units in the fund, their allocation of the units in the fund. [Carol:] Yes. If they want to cash in their plan, any units they've got allocated to their fund, they get the bid price. Brilliant, O K. Erm,... John, no. Janet, if somebody wants to take a partial surrender, I E, some of the cash from their fund, can they do it and how much will we charge them? [Sue:] Yes, they can. [Carol:] I was sort of telling you that bit. [Sue:] Yes, er, eleven pounds. [Carol:] Absolutely, right. Excellent. Erm, an investment bonus, Kim, is paid, how much is it, and when is it paid? [David:] Erm, an investment bonus is paid annually. [Carol:] That would be nice, but no. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Ah, [Carol:] It would be nice. [David:] No [Carol:] Could your team help Kim out? [speaker001:] The pay five, er, the amount if five percent, [Carol:] yes [speaker001:] And it's paid after the client's seventy fifth birthday [Carol:] Brilliant [speaker001:] Providing the plan has been going for ten years. [Carol:] Brilliant. Five percent bonus, should the client reach seventy five, and still be hail and hearty, and paying his premiums. Excellent. O K. Erm, let's go back to our fund and the list of charges.... We've looked at the expense charge of one pound nineteen, the cost of running a policy taken out each month. We've established that if Shirley was our client, the cost of life cover would be taken out each month, erm, Sue can you give me another charge, that is levied?... David's trying desperately to throw his voice again. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It's a terrible scheme. [Carol:] I don't know. [Sue:] Oh yes, the initial management charge. [Carol:] The initial management charge, how much is that? [Sue:] How much? [Carol:] Mm [Sue:] Bid offer about five percent. [Carol:] Which is? [Sue:] five percent. [Carol:] Five percent bid offer. O K, well done, David, but no points for cheating. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] No points for cheating, but you're absolutely right. The difference between the buying price and the selling price, five percent. Which is the buying and which is the selling price, Ilias, of the units? The bid price, or the offer price? [Ilias:] It would be the offer price, the price of the company. [Carol:] Yes [Ilias:] And the bid price, the price that the er, client. [Carol:] Yes, yes. The bid price is what the company will give the client, and the offer price is which the client has to buy off the company. Bid to get rid, so bid is the selling price, is the easy way to remember it. O K, good. One, two, three. Erm, Andrew, another charge, you've got the initial management charge, one more?... [speaker001:] Erm, [Carol:] Team? [speaker001:] Waiver of premiums, no we've done that. We've done it. [Carol:] We've got that. [speaker001:] We've got the expenses charge. [Carol:] You're right, it is a charge. [speaker001:] Er, setting up charge? Establishment of... The, er adding charge. [Carol:] Annual management charge, taken out of the fund. How much is it? [speaker001:] One percent. [Carol:] Did you hear him? [speaker001:] Yes [Carol:] One percent, yes. Phew, given them their bonus, yes, well done. Right, so those are the charges [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Good, O K, let's see how we get so far, before we come to the last question. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty eight. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty two. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty eight. [speaker001:] Oh dear. [Carol:] Right, this is how the last question works. I'm going to give you, as a table one of the features of the plan, I'm going to ask you as a group, but only one of you needs to write it, to write every single thing you can think of relating to that set feature. Every bit of information. Then you've got a possible ten marks. You give me all the information. If the other two teams can pick up on a piece of information they missed out, they get a mark and you lose one of your ten. Simple really isn't it? Right, the three er, things we're going to look at are, you only need one per team, but I'll tell you what they are, waiver of premium, the insurability option,... or index linking as it's sometimes called, and the paid up option. Right, who's in third place. Third place, we have Middlemarch. Which one would you like to choose as a team? [speaker001:] Erm, I'd like W O P. [Carol:] Right, so off you go, write as much as you can about W O P. Right, Wall Street which one are you going to go for? [speaker001:] What do you want? You pay for right of allocation of units. Erm,... insurability option, the middle one. Insurability option. Which leaves you with The paid up option. [Carol:] The paid up option, right. O K, then two minutes. Write down everything you can think about it. The paid up option. [speaker001:] [quiet talking amongst themselves] [Carol:] They're fighting over here. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] It's alright. Could be crucial this, Wall Street and the Losers, they're neck and neck here you know. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think we should have a point for because we're well behaved. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] I think you've got a good point there, yes, I might er, it used to be, well you really are amazing, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Are you sure there's actually ten things you can say about these? [Carol:] There probably aren't, no. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I've only done one. [LAUGHTER] For one more tip we can, it'll be a miracle. What have Wall Street got, Gerald? They've got waiver of premium. No they've got insurability option. Have they? [LAUGHTER] [whispering] [] [Carol:] Right, are we ready? [speaker001:] We've got more than one, or something. [Carol:] Are we ready? [speaker001:] Sorry, [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Nobody's answering. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes, yes. [Carol:] Well, let's have this team for answering then. I like polite teams. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Oi, you lot. [speaker001:] Sorry, yes. They're not polite, deduct a point. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] Right, what we're going to do now, then we will start with who's got what. O K. John, are you going to, John's going to read out all the features that his team have come up with. If you can think of anything that he's missed out, you stand a chance of winning a bonus point and he loses one of his ten points. [John:] Right. [Carol:] So off you go. [John:] Right, right fine. Waiver of allocations, I E, a reduction of units. O K, two, er,rep, units, what have I written? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Sorry [speaker001:] The number of units. [John:] The number of units is reduced by age and sex. [Carol:] Right, yes. [John:] O K. Er, not available on high-risk jobs. [Carol:] Right [John:] Not available on h, housewives, unless they can prove that they would have been in employment, would have been, erm, that they will have been [Carol:] Will be, good [John:] They would have been in employment, erm, only available up to the age of sixty, then cancelled [Carol:] Two's, Christine [John:] Erm, effective due, comes into effect after twenty eight weeks of illness or disability. [Carol:] It comes into effect after twenty eight weeks of an illness or a disability, yes. [John:] Er, available on joint life, first claim. [Carol:] yes [John:] Erm, on joint policies, the amount of units taken from the fund is the sum of the two lives, I E, up to seven percent. [Carol:] Yes, yes, got to. [John:] H I V not permitted. [Carol:] yes [John:] Erm, that's Not available on joint paragraph, right, that's what we've got then. [Carol:] It is, it is. [John:] That's what we've got. So it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine [Carol:] Right next table, anything that they've missed out? [speaker001:] Yes, if they can't have the option in the leaver, then they get the extra allocation of units. [Carol:] He likes this allocation of units. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Can be, yes, why not, why not, yes, a bonus. Anything from this table. [speaker001:] Yes, the benefit is only payable up to the age of sixty. [John:] We had that, I said that. [speaker001:] He said that. Are you sure? [John:] yes [speaker001:] It is available to housewives. [Carol:] He said that, you're just, he, he, he said that it's available to housewives but only if they erm, will be going back to work prior to the claim, but you must be employed prior to the claim. [speaker001:] Yes, I didn't hear him saying that they waive the payments from you when, I didn't know if you were meant to? [Carol:] I didn't say, he didn't say anything about er, Abbey [speaker001:] No, no [Carol:] Waiving the premiums, no. [speaker001:] So basic payments, with er, well I suppose, no, no, I won't [Carol:] They said, they said, they only deduct six marks because they're only payable up to sixty? [John:] We did [Carol:] Did you say death or? You don't remember? [John:] No we didn't say that. [Carol:] Oh, you just lost two marks worth then, payable up to the end of the term or er, on death. O K, well done, so we've had two bonuses, so that must give you eight marks which makes you forty one. So if you find lots of things to say about the others, you're still in with a chance here. Right then Wall Street, what, what is er? Insurability option, [speaker001:] Yes [Carol:] Who's going to tell us about it? [speaker001:] So you do it after five years. [Carol:] Every five years, yes. [speaker001:] Then if it's not going to be taken up on one of those five years, you have to leave that payment, you lose it. [Carol:] If you don't use it you lose it. [speaker001:] You lose it, and you've got the option to take out a new plan after the five years. [Carol:] A new plan [speaker001:] To make up, to make up life cover, life cover as required. [Carol:] To make up life cover, yes. [speaker001:] Erm, it's valid up until the age of sixty five. [Carol:] yes [speaker001:] No further medical evidence is normally required. [Carol:] yes [speaker001:] And also you have the option to increase on special events I E, divorce, adoption, marriage, or on mortgages. [Carol:] Right, O K. Good. [speaker001:] I couldn't think of any more. [Carol:] Anything? [speaker001:] Well they haven't actually said what it is. [Carol:] tell me then? alo [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Actually you have missed out one very crucial point. [speaker001:] The opportunity to increase [Carol:] No he did say you could increase the sum assured [speaker001:] He did say that. H I V people can't have it. [Carol:] H I V people can't have it.... Anyone? [speaker001:] And your premiums in line with erm, increase in inflation, [Carol:] Which is measured by? [speaker001:] The Retail Price Index. I thought he said that once. Or a proportion of it [Carol:] Hm [speaker001:] You can take a proportion of it, you don't need the five percent. [Carol:] So if you take a proportion, then what happens? [speaker001:] You have to have the same proportion next time. [Carol:] Right, if you, he said if you don't take it you lose it, which is absolutely right. But if you take a proportion of it, you're only offered that proportion again. I think that's it. Yes? Erm, there's something about additional insurability. Now, you actually answered about additional insurability, I didn't ask you, it sounds the same, in fact it's totally different, because as you say, the option to take out more life cover on birth, marriage, and adoption, [speaker001:] To a maximum of twenty five thousand [Carol:] To a maximum of twenty five thousand, yes [speaker001:] Or mortgage [Carol:] Forget mortgages, we're talking Covermaster, yes, it's nothing to do with mortgages. O K. So I just wanted to clear that, twenty five thousand Sorry, [speaker001:] Yes, or, or some percentage of it. [Carol:] yes, it's a maximum of twenty five thousand. Yes, or twenty five percent of the original sum assured. [speaker001:] There is something in that actually charging a percent it gives you an option that you could do something which would mean that the option wasn't cancelled. Erm, and it was going on about it was something to the sum insurance? I don't, I forget what it was now. [Carol:] Erm, well, I'm not sure, but if you find it erm, ask me, because I can't relate to it. [speaker001:] Yes, I think it was relevant to computers, yes, erm, yes. [Carol:] But I'll just pick up, if the original sum assured was a hundred thousand, and you need, and you took the additional insurability option, you could obviously have twenty five thousand with is a quarter, and that's the maximum you can have anyway. If it was a hundred and fifty thousand you could still only have twenty five thousand. But if you'd, if the original sum assured was only sixty thousand, you could only have a quarter, so you could only have fifteen thousand pounds maximum. Yes, O K. Good, so how many bonuses. One, two,th, no, no, sorry, but di, who did waiver of premium? You did, didn't you, so [speaker001:] No, no, no, we didn't, [Carol:] Who did waiver, you did, right, O K. So, one, two, three bonuses off, because you, there was one from before. So that gives you seven, which brings you up to thirty nine, forty six, taking into account that one. One, knock these off, otherwise I shall confuse them. Forty six. Right, waiver of premium. [speaker001:] No We've done that We've done that. [Carol:] No we're not, paid up option. Thank you very much. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Sorry about that. Paid up option, for the Losers. [speaker001:] O K, erm, premiums are stopped for er, if you can't afford to carry on paying them, the premiums are stopped, and your fund is continued up until the p, the point where the charges exhaust the funds, providing it's over a thousand pounds. If it's under a thousand pounds, you can't get the money back through funding, and the policy is void. [Carol:] Mhm [speaker001:] Erm, if it's paid up you can start paying again at some point in the future, but you have to pay an extra one-off charge, to do it, I think. [Carol:] At some point in the future? [speaker001:] Up until the funds are exhausted. Yes, before the funds are ex, exhausted. [Carol:] Yes, yes, that's right, that's absolutely correct, [speaker001:] Erm, you can't choose to make it paid up, it has to be paid up because the premiums aren't being paid. [Carol:] Right, good, O K. So, you've got a client who for whatever reason, is, is unable to er, afford the premiums, and providing they've got a thousand pounds in the fund, they can elect to the, the plan made paid up, whereby the life cover is sustained by the fund and all the other charges, and it's sustained until the fund runs dry. [speaker001:] Yes [Carol:] Anybody anything to add to that? I think, the only thing I could add is that you've got twelve months in which to restart the payments. It's a twelve month period. [speaker001:] I didn't know that. [Carol:] O K, erm, and you do have to actually pay back the premiums other people would stop and start them at random. So if after five months you started paying it again, you've got to pay the previous four months' premiums. O K, so, [speaker001:] How many's that? Eight. No, no, we haven't Nobody else got any more points. [Carol:] What do you, what do reckon, do you think they've got a good case for their ten points? [speaker001:] Five, five. It wasn't explained properly. [Carol:] Five, it wasn't explained properly. We can find lots of reasons for not giving them ten points, couldn't we really, if we really worked at it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You didn't say we couldn't, we didn't say the level of cover, [Carol:] I mean they've been a rabble all afternoon anyway, haven't they? Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] They've said things that weren't true to say, couldn't they, I mean, they thought it too simple to even say. [Carol:] Absolutely, just to make more points, they made a few things up,ex, absolutely. They can still have their ten points, though. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Hooray. [Carol:] So, well done the Losers, at great expense, we have a prize for you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh, lovely. Well, Mm, this is nice, [Carol:] The bonuses well, it might, it might actually work. [speaker001:] No it doesn't. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] I hope it doesn't change it, but they should do. Right. O K, erm, hopefully we've had a bit of fun, but at the same time, we go, we went through all the technical information. Er, tomorrow you will have an exam on Covermaster, it's not going to be the type of exam that's going to be, what's the minimum premium?, it's going to be more looking at potential clients, and what they're going to want from the plan. So you're going to be looking at things like additional insurability option, waiver of premium, index linking and paid up option. Those are the features that you're going to need to know, and how they relate to your clients. More so, that it's a twenty pounds minimum premium, because they're going to ask you to apply some of that knowledge through the questions. But I really don't think it will be a problem. If we could have erm, a coffee break now until ten past three, and then we'll enter the last phase on the, on the Covermaster, one of the last areas which is features to benefits. Any questions for me before we finish? Right, quarter of an hour coffee break then please. [speaker001:] Get the notes. Change the name to the Winners now, [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Yes.

[speaker001:] Some years ago now, I left teaching, erm, and joined Abbey. I went on an induction course down in Bournemouth, which was all technical, er, I came back to see my first clients, and I cringed at the thought of it. Can you imagine, you know a teacher, I thought I had to tell them every minute detail of these plans. All that business about allocation of units, I'm sitting them this. I mean, I still now, cringe at the thought of it. Because that isn't what the clients want to know. They want to know that you know it, and they want to feel confident that if they ask you question you can answer it, but they very much want to know what it does for them and how much it's going to cost them basically. Erm, perhaps the easiest way to talk about it is, it's a fact that one point three million, quarter inch drill bits are sold in the U K. In fact they were sold last year in the U K. Now, one three quarter inch drill bits. I mean can you imagine people stopping their friends outside the D I Y store and saying you must buy one of these bits, it's absolutely superb, look at the metal, look at the shape, it's absolutely wonderful. They haven't been bought for what they are have they? They've been bought for what they do. They've been bought for the fact that all over the country there's all these holes in the wall and people are putting up shelves, building furniture or whatever. So it's very much what it does, and not what it is. Erm, another way of er, er, talking about it. You're going to a friend's for a barbecue on a hot summer's evening, and you're walking up the drive and you can smell the barbecue sizzling away. Er, er, and your mouth starts to water, and you're thinking, this is going to be great. You get to the barbecue, and amongst other things they're barbecuing sausages, and you think super. Well if they actually took the time to explain to you what went into those sausages, you probably wouldn't eat them at all, would you? But, because of the smell and the taste and everything, you're quite happy to er, eat the sausages. You go for the sizzle, not the sausage. So that's what we're going to be talking about now. Turning features into benefits. We'll think you'll agree, after we've been through the Covermaster Plan, it's choc-a-bloc full of features, waiver of premium, escalating premium, insurability option, life cover, selective periods, bonuses, you name it, there's hundreds of features of the plan. We're going to look at how we can talk about them as benefits to the client. There's two ways of doing it. Er, the first, the most straightforward way is to name the feature..., if you want to briefly describe it if it's appropriate, and I mean briefly,... then use a link phrase like what this means to you... and come out with a benefits statement, something that the client can relate to, and the final piece in the jigsaw is to ask the client how he feels about it. What does he think? How do you feel?... Erm, let's take waiver of premium, and go through that process. Andrew, is there a feature in this plan called waiver of premium, what these means to you is that if you're off ill for a long period of time, through accident, ill-health, whatever, Abbey will actually still pay them for you, until you're well again. How do you feel about that? It sounds good. [Carol:] It sounds great. Yes, nice and simple. Don't go into all the technical details without er, six months er, payable until you return to work, reach sixty or die, payable for by reduced allocation to the units according the age and sex, etcetera, etcetera, and tell him what it does for him. In the Covermaster Plan, Andrew, there's something called waiver of premium, what this means to you is that if you're off work through illness for a long period of time, Abbey's going to pay the premiums for you. How do you feel about that? Great, I'll have that, I'll have two in fact, yes? Keep it short, keep it simple. [writing on board], keep it simple. It's stupid, but having said, yes, remember that. Now there's another way of doing it, which done well is more powerful. But you have to think about it and it comes with practice, which as you obviously sell more and more of these plans, most of which have got waiver of premium. First of all what you do is disturb the client, or put another way, you create a problem,... and then you solve it, with a feature,... and then you ask, what do you think, how do you feel?.... If I take the same example, waiver of premium, erm, and I'm relating to knowledge that I will have got through the plan your future document, if I use Andrew again if I may, if I say to you, Andrew, erm, you explained earlier that erm, if you're off work through ill-health, your employer will actually pay you for six months, and then it stops. That's true isn't it, yes? Can you see that maybe, if at some time in the future, you do have er, some bad health, or perhaps get involved in an accident, that after a period of time, it might be difficult to actually find the money to pay for this plan we're establishing tonight? [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] Yes, well the good news is, that there's actually something called waiver of premium on the plan, which looks after exactly the, looks after exactly that case. Yes. If you're off work for a long time, Abbey's going to pay the premiums for you, until you get well again. How do you like the idea of that? [speaker001:] It all sounds fine. [Carol:] Yes, you disturb him. Some people will actually say, if I could add something to the plan that would cost you just a little bit more, which means that if you're off work through illness, the company, Abbey will pay the premiums for you, would you be prepared to pay a bit more. [speaker001:] No. [Carol:] Most people would say yes, actually, if you put that way. But what do you say, well the good news is, it's not going to cost you any more. It's automatically included. So you can do that as well. But, if you do it that way, it's often more powerful, because you're relating to the client's circumstances. Either way, keep it simple and get the client to tell you what he thinks. Are you happy with, with the idea and the way I put it across, yes? Speak to me. [speaker001:] Mhm, yes, [Carol:] Yes, good, because you're going to have a go at it. [speaker001:] Oh. [Carol:] You might have known that was coming, mightn't you? What I want you to do is shout out as many features of the plan as you can think of, and then in a minute we'll look at changing them into benefits. So, off you go. [speaker001:] Escalating premiums. [Carol:] Escalating premiums, yes. [speaker001:] Unit linked. [Carol:] Unit linking. [speaker001:] Whole of life [Carol:] Whole of life, [speaker001:] Erm, [Carol:] Come on, we've been through all this [speaker001:] Terminal illness. [Carol:] Terminal illness benefit, yes. [speaker001:] Waiver of premium. [Carol:] Waiver of premium. [speaker001:] Death benefit. [Carol:] Death benefit, or, yes. [speaker001:] Paid up [Carol:] Sorry. [speaker001:] Paid up [Carol:] Paid up option.... Right. [speaker001:] Insurability [Carol:] Insurability. [speaker001:] Flexibility [Carol:] Flexibility, yes, you can change... levels of cover, selected periods.... [speaker001:] Possible option of surrender value at the end of [Carol:] Yes, surrender value,... and partial surrenders, yes? I think we've probably got enough now, how many have we got? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, right. I'm going to ask you as an individual to choose one. And just to put together a way that you can change it from a feature into a benefit, using either of those ways. Or you can just give yourself some bullet points because you don't need to write out the and's and the the's and whatever. But we'll ask you to select which one you're going to go for, and as I know we've got a room full of gentlemen, let's start with the ladies first. Kim, what would you like? [David:] Erm, waiver of premiums, [Carol:] Waiver of premiums, crafty. Er, Shirley? Flexibility Flexibility, oh that was the one you gave me, yes. Er, Janet? [Janet:] Unit linking. [Carol:] Unit linking. Sue? [Sue:] Selected period, [Carol:] Selected period, right, Andrew? [speaker001:] Erm, surrender value. [Carol:] Surrender value, David? [David:] Whole of life. Gerald? [Gerald:] I'll take death benefits. [Carol:] Death benefits, Philip? [Philip:] Escalating premium [Carol:] Escalating premium, Ilias [Ilias:] Partial surrender [Carol:] Partial surrender, John. [John:] Oh, terrific, [Carol:] I haven't written that have we? [John:] Terminal illness. [Carol:] Terminal illness. Right, everybody clear on what you're going to do? Spend a, a minute or so, putting your thoughts together, you can write it out if you want to, or you can just give you bullet points, what you've chosen you're going to change into a feature. If you start to go on to the other p, side of the page, start again. Keep it simple, yes? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] And try and personalise it, I don't mind if you refer to any information that you might have gathered during the evening, a bit like I did with Andrew. Yes, but assuming that those people were being paid at work for six months, and then there was a problem. You can give them children, you can give them anything you like to try and personalise it, but keep it simple.... Right, are we ready? [speaker001:] No, not yet. [Carol:] No, no, we don't want any essays.... Keep it simple... [clapping] [speaker001:] You're not giving him time off again, are you? You know, I mean, all this freedom? [clapping]... [Carol:] As you're finishing off, let me explain what we're going to do. Erm, I'm going to ask, first of all, for a volunteer. Since you're all going to have a go, you can who'd like to volunteer, so who would like to volunteer. Who's going to volunteer, Gerald's volunteered. Oh, we've got two here. Gerald will start, er, and he will talk to you as if you were a potential client, but so he can actually relate it to somebody, he'll choose one of you. One of your colleagues, anybody in the room, and if you, when you are the potential client, when you talk to Gerald or whoever's talking to you, er, as if you're a potential client, relate to everything he says. If he says you've got six children and you work at the local factory, you do, yes? You respond in kind. Erm, and he'll finish it off by asking you what you think about it, and obviously you respond to that. So Gerald who're you going to start, have as client. [Gerald:] I'll have John. [Carol:] John, right, off you go then. So Gerald to John, what are we talking about? [Gerald:] Erm, death benefit. [Carol:] Death benefit, right. [Gerald:] O K then, O K then John, er, looking at your erm, at your fact file, we see here that we've actually got erm, twice the amount of your salary erm, for life cover, which your company which your company actually offers, offers you. O K? [John:] Yes. [clears throat] [Gerald:] O K, so at the moment, you've got two times your salary erm, life cover. Let me ask you John, how would you actually feel if you were made redundant tomorrow? How would your family actually er, benefit? [John:] Well because I've only got the life cover, then er, that cover would disappear. [Gerald:] O K [John:] Er, and I'd have to start thinking about where I am again. [Gerald:] How do you actually feel about that? [John:] Not too happy. [Gerald:] Not too happy. O K, if I could actually show you a way where there's not such a problem today, how would you feel then? [John:] It depends how much it cost. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] O K, that's great, yes? Related to him, worried him, and offered him a solution, yes. Good, so John it must be your turn now, so you can select anybody else in the room, and go through the same process. [John:] Alright, erm, Janet. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] What, what are you talking about John? [John:] Oh, erm, terminal illness. [Carol:] Terminal illness, right. [John:] Janet, erm, obviously we'd examine your circumstances from time to time, erm, but er, there are obviously perhaps areas that concern you. Erm, if you were diagnosed as having cancer, and was intending to be dead in nine months, what would your reaction be to that? [Janet:] How can I put that, keep me, how can I look after myself as I obviously won't be able to work, and look for ways about er, getting my house in order before I er, finally die. [John:] Well yes, of course you would, that's obviously quite a worry. [Janet:] Mm, it is, yes. [John:] Quite a concern. Well, how would you feel if I was to tell you that within the policy it was possible that the sum could be paid, it might even be paid up before death. [Janet:] yes, like what? What's the test? [John:] Well if you had er, your illness and so on, and the other debts that you may have, erm, and bearing in mind that you actually only have the nine months, you might be a little bit more er, [clears throat] a bit luckier than that, but how about a holiday in Disneyland? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Janet:] Gosh, that's like going to hell isn't it? [clapping] [John:] Well would that, that, that's what, would that be of interest to you? [Janet:] No, but there's plenty of things I would like to do, people I'd like to see, yes, yes. There's certainly things a bit of extra money would make enjoyable in the last few months. [John:] Right well, I think I can show you a way on how to go about that. [Janet:] How much more would it cost? [John:] Ah, well that depends on how much you want to spend. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] No, it's not going to cost her any more, because it's included in the plan, so it's not going to include, so it's not going to cost her any more [John:] No it doesn't [Carol:] Good, well done. Well personalised. Yes, er, very good effort. Erm, is it, would it, it showed you not to put words in her mouth, but I mean, it was nice to talk about Disneyland. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] It brought a lovely humour to the situation, erm, but maybe to ask her what she'd likely to do, like to do in those er, last er, nine months or so. Good. Well done, John. Janet? [Janet:] [sigh] Oh, I wish I hadn't chosen this particular one. [Carol:] [clapping] [Janet:] Can I ask, address another table, [Carol:] N, yes, anybody, yes. [Janet:] Right, David I'll talk to you. [Carol:] About? About? [Janet:] Erm, unit linking. [Carol:] Unit linking. Right. [Janet:] Right, David, you said you'd been approached by another insurance company, er, I could obviously say, I recommended Abbey Life, and I'm tied to that, but I actually joined because I think they're a particularly good company, in that what, in the use they make of the money that I'm paying, actually goes, performs very well. And I'll explain this a bit more. Erm, we, when we first came into the industry, erm, we brought in a totally new policy that the funds to provide the pensions and action, we put into unit trusts. You know, do you know anything about unit trusts? [David:] Not really, no [Janet:] Well it goes into a pot, and it, it buys into different funds which are invested in different markets, erm, to give you some examples, erm, we can invest in property, we can invest in some securities, government securities, er, we invest in the Stock Exchange and we have managers who look after these funds, and they perform extremely well. And if you go and have a look at the tables, you find that Abbey Life actually makes your money grow faster than a lot of other insurance companies. And the benefits of this is that er, as you know, erm, inflation takes over, and we measure our spending power against that, five pounds in your pocket today, won't buy what tomorrow, what it bought this year, and next year, what it would have bought this year. So we have to keep ahead of that, because we're planning the benefits for you, twenty or twenty five years' time. So we have to make sure the money you pay to us, actually is going to grow so it gives you a very good return on that money in twenty five years' time. So we put it into this pot and we invest it in as many funds and spread the money out, so if, if one fund doesn't produce very much in return, another fund will, and so we in fact, get a better spread throughout the market, than you could do as an individual. I mean you could go out, and you could put a little bit of money in the building society, or the bank, or you could have a gamble on the Stock Exchange, but we have two advantages. We have erm, managers of these funds who have a lot of expertise, a lot of experience, we've been going over thirty years now, and we've grown extremely quickly because of the expertise of our managers. We give our expertise for nothing really. It doesn't cost you any more, you just throw them in for free. And the other thing is you clearly get a good spread of the market, and we know that this method will produce erm, a return for you which will keep your spending power ahead of inflation. Is there anything you'd like to ask me? [speaker001:] [clapping] Can you please go through it again for me. [Janet:] I must have had a death wish choosing that. [Carol:] Janet that was a lovely, clear description. Erm, but, how could you have improved it? [Janet:] Well I would have liked him to participate more, but I didn't know how to lead him. [Carol:] Yes, yes, you needed to involve him, erm, [speaker001:] [clapping] [Janet:] yes, that's my trouble. [Carol:] But, erm,, it was too long wasn't it? It was too long, and you didn't involve the client. But I've, I've honestly got to say on your behalf, it was a lovely clear description of what happens as well, and there were some nice positive statements about Abbey er, and er, why unit linking is worked for Abbey, etcetera, so lots of it was absolutely great, but [Janet:] You've got to count your words when you're playing the recorder. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Janet:] One thing I would say, it's very difficult to put over, is to get over, of the part you've paid back [Carol:] it is, it is You've just, you've just got to ask, ask his opinion, is it important to you that you get a return on the money that you invest with us, yes? Or do you feel comfortable making decisions about where you're investing your money, or would you be happy for somebody else to do it? Either way you could offer him [Janet:] Yes, I see, yes... er, I said, I could have said if you had been given a hundred thousand pounds how, or fifty thousand pounds how would you invest it? [Carol:] Yes, if, if, if you can involve him more, but obviously this is a very nerve-racking situation, and er, the description was great, please [Janet:] [clapping], yes, the description was a death wish thinking that was [Carol:] Right, Philip [Philip:] Escalating premium. [Carol:] Escalating premiums, talking to? [Philip:] I think David, because he didn't answer Janet. [Carol:] Right. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Philip:] Right, O K, here goes. David, just looking at your situation, I know you're er, a young chap and you have a young family, and we've er, discussing your existing circumstances and I can see that at the moment er, funds in the family budget are a little bit tight. If I could show you a way of keeping your premiums at an affordable level but still obtaining the li, the level of life cover that you need to be of to your wife and your family, would, would that be of interest to you? [David:] Well it's er, if it's cheaper then yes. [Philip:] Right, O K, well we have er, a feature in the er, in this particular policy which is er, full estimated [Carol:] Stop, stop, you've done it, just leave it [Philip:] You know, quite a useful [Carol:] No, no, no, just leave it. You did it very well, you're in danger of talking yourself out of it. You needed to stop there because he did it very well, didn't he? He personalised it, he told him exactly the benefit of escalating premiums, and he couldn't say anything other than yes, because it was what he wanted. But that was very good. Very good. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] That's the hardest part. Right, David? [David:] Well I'll go over the other side, Andrew. [Carol:] Andrew, right. Presumably. Erm, Andrew, er, I, I find that earlier on the, the only life cover you've really got is one that you took out a few years ago, a very small one, and you took that out for a set number of years. So you took that out when you were twenty, and I believe it's er, finishing when you're fifty. [speaker001:] Yes, that's right. [David:] So you've got, after that you've got nothing. There's nothing coming after [speaker001:] Nothing at all [David:] How do you feel about that? About all that, all those premiums you've paid and you're fifty one, and all of a sudden you've got nothing at the end of it? [speaker001:] I can't say I've ever worried about it, I just thought I'd look at it when I got there. [David:] Mm, so what if could erm, could come up with a policy, that you pay your premiums in, but it covers you for the whole of your life. So that no matter when you die, whether you're a hundred and twenty or whatever, you can get the sum that you've assured, well that won't help you, but your dependents will. Would that be of interest to you? [speaker001:] It would yes. [Carol:] Yes, good. Er, one good example, as cited er, er, a term policy, if you couldn't cite one that he had himself, you could cite examples so that people know about it. A little bit of a tendency to talk too much about it though. Yes, keep it bit shorter and simpler, but, just the right way of going about it to illustrate the point. How would you feel if you'd been paying this money for ten years and then you lived, you lived after than, and you got nothing for it basically. We're talking the whole of life. Good. Erm, Andrew? [speaker001:] Erm, I'll look at Ilias. [Carol:] Right. [speaker001:] Right, erm, as you've heard, this policy is basically for your protection, but it does over a number of years, acquire a bit of savings. Obviously,th, there is four or five years there's nothing to speak of, but after that it does acquire more. So like yourself, you've got a daughter, who perhaps fifteen, twenty years' time, will be getting married, at which point the policy could be surrendered to put towards the cost of the wedding. Or when you retire, it could be used as a lump sum to set yourself up initially for your retirement, so how would you feel about that? [Ilias:] Yes, I would be in trouble. [speaker001:] you'd have more savings. [Carol:] Yes, yes, good. Good, because you set it out, as as, er, you gave a scenario where the money would be useful to the fu, the future, so that was, that was good. Erm, you could have got to the close a little bit earlier, but then it, I think you were just finding your words, that was good, well done. You related it directly to Ilias. Ilias, who're you going to talk to? No it's got to be somebody who hasn't had a go, otherwise the system falls down, doesn't it. Shirley, Kim, somebody close? [Ilias:] Shirley, if sometime in your life er, you need money er, for example, er, you're in when you're a start of marriage, and you have mortgage, how will you go to? [Carol:] Er, with difficulty. [Ilias:] Well in er, this policy any time if you want to surrender so if you need er, some of the money, you can get that money or any time. [Carol:] Will it affect my life cover then? [Ilias:] yes. [Carol:] O K, that, that was, that was a good er, it was a good setting the scene, because you related it to Shirley. Shirley came up with a stat, with a question, which is a very important question, will if affect my life cover? Obviously it depends how much you take out. But if you start talking about taking some of the cash from the fund, you've got to tell the clients it could affect the cover that they've got, because it isn't a savings policy. But it's a bonus isn't it, because they've had all this protection on this and they've still got some cash building up. O K, good. Shirley? I'll go with. Right so if we pay you by five yearly value in three months, and invest for initially life cover of twenty thousand, and that's O K for now. And we take you three years along the line, so your husband dies, and you've now got a young child. Do you think twenty thousand is going to be adequate. [Sue:] No it probably wouldn't be. [Carol:] Well this policy is actually flexible, you can actually if you do have children, you can then increase the life cover. [Sue:] That's exactly what we want. [Carol:] Well done Sue, you actually stopped her finishing it. [Sue:] Oh [Carol:] You did it, you did it very well, yes, but you needed, I know you were going to, you needed to say at the end, is this important to you, or is this something you would like on your policy. Good, well done, Shirley. So Sue, it must be you, to [Sue:] Who's left? [Carol:] Kim? Kim, I think, is it? [Sue:] Right, [clapping] Kim, erm, we talked, we talked earlier about life cover er, on death, on the death of your husband. You actually have three children under the age of seven, and if your husband died while they were still young, still in education, heaven forbid, but these things still do happen, it might be that you think that you would need more cover at that point in time, than later on, maybe when the children have left home. Would it be fair to say that that's a good statement to make? [David:] Yes, it would be, yes. [Sue:] How would you feel if you were able to designate more life cover for a selected period of your choice, er, and then, maybe alter, er, the cover later on, so that you can have higher cover at certain points in your life, to cover these critical things, like your children's education, while they're growing up erm, at any point in the future. That's it. [Carol:] Good, well done Sue. Erm, yes, selected periods. Well presented, well personalised, did they have to finish it? [Sue:] No [Carol:] Yes, before you started repeating. It's very difficult to keep it simple, it really is. I mean, I know Gerald went first, and I know he's been in the business a long while, but he actually managed to say it all in about three sentences. That's experience, but that, that's what we're aiming to a, er, achieve. Kim, last but not least, it's to Gerald, [David:] Hello [clapping] [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] That was nice and short and simple, well done. [David:] Do you want it or not? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] That's it, that's it. [Gerald:] Do I get a waiver of premiums with it? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Carol:] Lovely [David:] You've put me completely off, now. [speaker001:] [clapping] [David:] I knew I'd got kids written down here for a reason. [speaker001:] [clapping] [David:] Even started whether there's not two extra, but it costs more. [speaker001:] [clapping] [David:] We were talking earlier, and I understand you liked to ride at the weekends, and you're often competing on your horse, er, ha, if you were to have a fall, and erm, you had a back injury, or erm, you sustained an injury that would you keep you from work for a substantial amount of time, er, how would you feel, would you be able to pay your premiums? Would it be a problem to you? [Gerald:] Well, not really, not to begin with, because I get erm, sick pay from work, I get that for six months. [David:] But if it's an on-going problem that, would possibly keep from work, let's say for a year. [Gerald:] Yes, then it would be a problem. [David:] Right, well we, we have something which would actually solve that, erm, which would be of benefit to you, and would actually cut in at the six month period, and would continue paying your policy and your premiums, until your retirement age if necessary. Would that be of interest to you? [Gerald:] Oh, yes, yes. [Carol:] Good, well done, Kim. You weren't put off by all the bawdry earlier, well done. In fact, well done everybody, because it sounds a simple thing to do. When we actually got down to it, it wasn't quite as simple was it, and I think every one of you were personalising it really well, and making an excellent start. Good. That actually brings us to the end of the Covermaster product. We've spent nearly all day, talking about something what you knew about. Well hopefully you've found it of benefit. What we're now going to look at is living assurance. Now, so we can actually distinguish between the two policies, which are very similar in lots of ways, we're going to start again by looking at a video. Now this video, erm, was compiled by Dr. Marius Bernard. Dr. Christian Bernard, the South African surgeon, heart surgeon, his brother. He was talking at the Life Assurance Association er, convention in London I think it's er, three year ago now, in er, nineteen ninety, it must be ninety one, because I went on a course then. Erm, and he can tell you better than me, really the benefits of living assurance. So I'd like you to, as you did this morning please, move your chairs all round, close the blinds, and er, it's the, the second video of the day.... If you want to, it's going to last erm, about half an hour. [John:] Right, fine. [Carol:] Have you heard of Dr. er? [speaker001:] Yes [Carol:] Oh, right, well. [speaker001:] Do I have to things to talk about it, [Carol:] Yes, yes, yes. Oh, by the way, you've got to work through this video. You know your workbooks that you've got, he's actually asking you a few questions relating to the statistics that er, Dr. Bernard's going to mention, so can I ask you to get your workbooks and a pen, just so that you can jot down some of the information. You have to listen quite carefully. [speaker001:] What do you mean workbooks? [Carol:] I mean workbooks. [speaker001:] Oh. [Carol:] Yes, these things. [speaker001:] I thought those were for [Carol:] Everyone found their's. [speaker001:] No [Carol:] They were given out yesterday, Philip. [Philip:] Were they? Oh, how silly of me. [speaker001:] Again I didn't like to say that, [clapping] [Carol:] Has he been hassling you? [speaker001:] Yes. Page ten. [video on] Please welcome Dr. Marius Bernard. [applause, and music] [Gerald:] Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, er, looking at you and listening to you, it's certainly different to the operating rooms that one's used to working in. Er, don't feel a bit disappointed that during my presentation I'll be expecting to this hospital, I'll take you to the operating room, er [speaker001:] Please, Sorry [Gerald:] But certainly it's very real to what we're going to talk about today [speaker001:] That's O K [Gerald:] I'd also like to say, Mr. Chairman, that er, I didn't recognise the hospital you said, where we did this operation, [crowd laughs and claps], erm, if you want to, see me afterwards, I'll tell you that you take at the hospital. But you've got to be an erudite to be able to understand that. Ladies and gentleman, I'm very honoured really indeed, it's a privilege to be part of being here today, as part of the insurance industry. I believe very gratefully, and very sincerely about a great tomorrow, and my profession is striving to bring that to the health of peoples and nations. I've been very fortunate to be able to become part of your industry, to see part of your contribution to my patients for the great tomorrow. I'm not an insurance man, I'm a doctor. I couldn't care about the insurance companies, although I love your where I choose. I can care about my patients, and I sincerely hope that you will make it possible for my patients when their diagnosis is made, to have that knowledge that financially, he has a great tomorrow. [clapping] I believe that insurance is an honest attempt to provide financial security and independence when you need it most. And you really need it most when your health starts failing. When the diagnosis of the illness is made, think around your clients and your relatives, because that opportunity to generate the financial security and the friends you need, is threatened by the guilt. Now where does the doctor come into this? I want to go back the year, nineteen hundred, and let's hear the causes of death, because when many infectives caused by viruses and the bacteria, the life expectancy for a male was fifty, and for a women was fifty four. If I was born in that period, I would be dead already, and you wouldn't need to listen to me [clapping] But if you look at this as far as the medical profession and the insurance profession need each other, what happened to these people when they develop an infective condition? Pneumonia for example. It was very easy, they either died, four or five days later, very cheaply it used to cost ten pounds to die. It was a very cheap affair. Or they recovered, but what happened? When they recovered, there was no destruction of the heart, lungs and they could go back and work, a young person, as if they'd never been ill. But if they died, there was a very young family, a young wife, needing financial independence that was given to them by you, with a life insurance policy. Really it's a death insurance policy. That's what it is. Now the medical profession responded to this state of affairs, and created antibiotics, I can assure you today, that if you die of pneumonia, you can sue your doctor, with the greatest of thought that you'll get paid. And they've developed vaccination and immunization, so the infective conditions are no longer causes of death.... You see now that the most common cause of death is what they call the of diseases resulting from degenerate lifestyles, and I'm very proud [clapping] and I'm very proud to tell you that although I come from South Africa, and you might not think I'm very intelligent, as you sit here, down here and there, I can sign your death certificate already. Fifty percent of you will die of heart attacks, twenty plus will die of cancer, and ten percent will die of strokes. And it's getting worse. Why does this happen. Longer life expectancy. Your life expectancy as a male today is seventy four years, and for the females of the species, and we love them, your life expectancy is eighty years. Isn't it amazing? So what we doctors gave you, you developed this lifestyle. You should thank your doctor. Thank you for curing my pneumonia and, now I'm going to abuse my body. I'm going to smoke too much [clapping], I'm going to smoke too much, I'm going to drink too much, I'm not going to do enough exercise, I'm going to put on too much weight, I'm going to stress myself too much, and I can talk to you five days about those conditions. If you're going to insurance, think then, just think with me back, have you seen that? [clapping] You remember this man? He thinks he's thin, for a Merry Christmas, test the health of your eggs. You could just as well say the same for him, death in a box, but it is a, and now the next advert, with him now, the next advert is even better. [clapping] More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette. Can you just imagine me advertising that today. I would be shot before dawn. Now, what's happened because of this debilitative lifestyle. It has developed two types of condition. The wonderful arteriosclerosis, and the wonderful cancer. Who will get this arteriosclerosis, as you sit here, let me tell you again. If you just born you're free, at the age of five, fifteen percent is attacked, at the age of eight, it's forty percent, and eight of you over forty, congratulations, you're all got arteriosclerosis. All of you. Now what is arteriosclerosis? It's a deposit in the arteries of fat. It looks the English breakfast fixing it up for, that's what [clapping] and if you, if you want to look at an X-ray, you will see that the arteries of the body, those are the arteries, bring the blood supply is blocked with arteriosclerosis, and there you can see the English breakfast, the yolk of egg, the butter and all these things that are in there, causing a blockage of the artery, not enough to that muscle, and a heart attack, death and all these unbelievable things, that give me a little bit of income. [clapping], [clapping]. I had a very serious patient er, the other day, and I treated him and gave him six months to live, but at the end of six months, he didn't pay his account, so I gave him another six months. [clapping], [clapping]. [speaker001:] [cough] [Gerald:] Now God in his wisdom unfortunately, unfortunately blocked the most important arteries of the body. Not the arteries to your toenails or the tip of your nose, but the arteries to what we call the vital organs. The coronary arteries, heart, heart attack. Carotid arteries, stroke. Aorta, aortic surge, renal arteries, free kidney failure, these are what blocked arteries can do. Can you hear the dread disease conditions entry there. Now what happens when your arteries get blocked? is that you get a pain in the chest, a piece of your heart dies, if you have a heart attack, or the whole heart dies off and you have death. One of the easiest diagnoses in my profession. [clapping] There are more than a hundred and fifty thousand heart attacks in your country every year. That's not true, don't you believe it. It's more than three hundred th, three hundred thousand. That was the slide of approximately eight years ago. It's a galloping form of death, due to modern lifestyles,. That's the brain, that's a stroke, the brain is a very sensitive part of the body, and as you know in this very topic of debate, if the brain don't get enough blood, er, for three minutes, you've got permanent brain damage and the only occupation that's suitable is that of a politician. [clapping], [clapping]. There are more than a hundred thousand stroke victims in your country every year. Kidney disease, ten thousand new, five thousan, ten thousand total, five hundred new cases. That's a beautiful slide of carcinoma of the rectum, just to give the r, the carcinomas,, especially for you, carcinoma of the lung, as we say in Africaan's, weaker, that's nice. That's what you get from smoking. There are more than two hundred and forty thousand people in the United States who die of cancer every year. And that's the quickest hospital, because we've responded again in the medical profession. Do what you have done, abusing your bodies. We said if you want to abuse your bodies, we're going to take every bloody pound you have in your pocket away with you, with the most modern medical treatment, bowels. Heart-lung machines, that a machine that I can use, when you're put in a heart-lung machine, I stop this machine, I keep this machine going, and I take out your heart, and your, your heart, I drop it on the floor, pick it up, wash in Parmolive soap, and put it back again. All these things I can do, to prevent death. [clapping] Young babies, baby are there days of care, and look what we get. Isn't it amazing. Are you going to be sure that that money is available to provide for this. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that the most beautiful photo you've ever seen in your life. No applause, no cheers, you know that's made to feel here. This is, it's your heart, ladies and gentlemen, with a normal heart muscle. Now when you abuse your bodies, and you get the coronary artery disease, what happens? That heart becomes looking like that. It looks like it's been on the M twenty five on a Friday night, and every tyre's been over it. [clapping]. Now that normal heart you saw, you saw that normal heart, I would ask you if it was in a twenty five four year old man, do you think that man is alive or dead? [clapping] Yes, he's dead, he was killed in a motor car accident. [clapping] And the heart of that that's been on the M twenty five, is the patient alive or dead? Twenty two years later, and there he spends, with the, was our eight heart transplant patient. Sam says before he had his heart attacks, he had five six, I'll have to change the story. Twenty two years later, and there he spends, with the he was our eighth heart transplant patient. Sam says before he had his heart attacks, he had five, six, I'll have to change the story, he has a heart transplant, he developed diabetes, and he's later amputated. Do you know when he comes down here, he complains about this. It's like my when he was eighty, they asked him how do you feel? If I think of the alternative, I feel bloody well. [clapping], [clapping] But, but it is very serious. He has one complaint every time he comes and sees us. What's that? Money. This operation and this threat to his health, has created a lack of possible to regenerate the money needed for him, and his financial independence has been threatened. You from the insurance industry, twenty five years after heart attacks, when he should have died, despite the modern medicine. After twenty three years, after the heart transplant, eight years after osmosis, I want to give you his secret, guess what he's got. He's got a life insurance policy. It's amazing. And that life insurance policy to him, is of no help. He needed something new, because we in the medical profession, in responding to your new diseases, from the abuse of your body, have created the situation that you've got to insure yourself, that financially independence, not because you're going to die, but because you're going to live. And that is the way that we develop the concept of great living insurance. Creating these insurance to die is the number one need for financial independence, because we as doctors are going to spread the news with our modern lifestyles, because unlike the pneumonia patient you're not going to recover and go back to work, unlike the, the heart transplant, as the heart transplant, or the heart attack or the cancer patient, maybe at our expense. Invest money. Give you an example. If any of the you, I challenge to go to your bank manager tomorrow, and say to him, I've had a heart attack, I'm not going to pay my loan of a hundred thousand pounds. Do you know what happens? He'll get a heart attack, that's what happens. [clapping]. That's just the things we do, with the coronary arteries, we do coronary artery by- passes, I can, I can sew like any woman, I can darn your socks, we stick the veins on and we re-establish the the heart going a bit faster. Now, three hundred thousand men and women suffer heart attacks each year in your country, but many will survive. Think about the word survive, before I tell you, what does that mean, survive? We as doctors say, we're so bloody wonderful, you know we're very important. We're so wonderful, our patients survive. If he drops dead when he gets out of hospital, we no longer care about him, as long as he survived. Who is going to survive. Seventy seven percent will survive five years, fifty eight percent survive ten years, and forty seven survive thirty years, and we are improving. We are the miracle men have decided that you're not allowed to die. Let us promise you, you are not allowed to die any more, we are going to s, to improve our treatment, and you're going to survive, but with daily, increasing threat to that financial dependence that you've so keenly want, that you want for your loved ones. Do you want see your? Isn't that beautiful? Have you seen anything like that? That's the lungs. I wish I could talk longer because I'd like to tell you about the lungs, but er, time's still. A twenty four year old woman came to see me for treatment on the ward, a smoker. I had to investigate her, and I diagnosed that she had cancer of the lungs. There's someone out already. She came to see me a year later, total loss of weight, total short of breath, hardly, she's struggling to keep body and soul together. She says to me, I cannot continue, she's dead already, I will never forget her face, never. Now what would have happened if her broker came to this convention and heard about their disease, and two years ago sold her a disease policy, that would have given her two hundred thousand pounds, on the diagnosis of the disease. That little girl had to struggle on because the flat rent had to be paid, she had to struggle on because she had a car, kids had to go to school, until she died. Now if she had two hundred thousand pounds, what would it have given her. She could have stopped working. She could have spent quality time with her children. [speaker001:] [cough] [Gerald:] If it happens to me, I will say, I'll take that two hundred thousand, and go to Hollywood, and spend the night with Madonna, that would have been my choice. [clapping] It would have been Madonna's choice too by the way. [clapping], [clapping]. Thirty percent of all people in your country, your country, suffer from a condition called cancer, and ninety percent will be life threatening. How long they survive, if you look at my age, I'm a male, thirty five, [clapping] forty seven percent, forty percent will survive at least er, five years. If you look at the Chairman, here this afternoon, sixty four, twenty nine percent will survive. But on the whole, of the diagnoses of cancers made today, more than fifty percent will survive more than five years. Have you ever seen a person with cancer of the lung, cancer of the stomach? Have you seen what their survival means? It's a slow progression to unableness to perform their daily needs especially to start with the threat to the person, of opportunities to greater income. Only crystal will pay up on the diagnosis, and make it possible. Like Samuel stated, in a woman suffered strokes, seventy eight percent will survive at least one, have you ever seen a person with a stroke? Have you ever seen a person with a stroke? It's not only the patient, who lies there paralysed and unable to talk, and unable to move, it involves his whole family. His whole family is locked into caring, working wives have to give up work to come and help them. There's a clue, there's a clue for the need of insurance, not because you're going to die, but because you're going to live, and that is the reason why I'm prepared to cross this world. I don't ask you to sell better, ladies and gentlemen, I don't ask you to sell itself for certain companies, I'd like you to, but I don't. What I ask you and I insist, that for a great tomorrow for my patients, you tell them about it. Just tell them about this product, what it can do, and I assure you of the results. You never have to tell a person who's had a heart attack, you never need to tell a woman when her husband has a stroke, I have to. Help me, give me that great tomorrow, by enough financial security. Look at what we've done to each other, er, to ourselves, in the young, in nineteen hundred, eight percent of people had heart attacks, six percent strokes, cancer, four percent, total eighteen percent. And now, with the way that the human take it to the medical profession for giving them a longer life expectancy, thirty percent of people are diseased. Twenty one cancer, and nine percent strokes. It varies from cancer, in world statistics. You must watch our statistics. In America, it's been shown that statistically, that men have got more children than women. So be very careful with statistics. [clapping] This is the figure of your country, I think are very significant, of the reduction of death rates of people, are getting higher and higher, and the time that's spent through illness off work, and there's an increase in survival after the diagnosis of the dread disease. Ladies and gentlemen, that's why I'm very proud. I've been very lucky, I'm not being charitable, but I've a lot of luck. I've been lucky to be able to launch the first concept of dread disease insurance, in South Africa you might have heard about us. It's called living assurance, launched August ninety eight, for Standard Life Assurance and Wallace. When we changed the concept of insurance totally, and we have said that the sum assured will be paid out on the diagnosis of the disease, and not on death or anything else. We then created the first product which heart attacks, strokes, cancers and certain coronary artery disease, which I can see. I believe you can see why, first of it it's most common, and second to coronary artery disease, I'm a cardiac surgeon, I want my piece of the action too, so we keep as well. [clapping] We have a lot of privacies, and a lot of things until we change them, and you know why we changed it, because you went out and saw your clients and told them products and they reported you, and you came back and said but what about this, what about this? And we responded to the need that you, and I don't think you will ever appreciate it, I cannot thank you enough for your input in this product of yours. You made it what it is. Until we increase it by surgery for disease of aorta, renal failure, therapy for blindness, replacement of a heart valve and organ transplant. [speaker001:] [cough] [Gerald:] And then the danger of lungs and in which I do quite well, and you can say to us, and we earn it. Multiple sclerosis and any terminal illness. Why any terminal illness? Just in case, somebody escape that net of dread diseases [clapping] The lucky ones. If your doctors says that you're going die within twelve months, we will accept it as a diagnosis of a critical illness. Erm, we are getting through on that, are you going to suggest on it? We are going to improve and produce what I believe the optimum product eventually. And you know it, it's amazing how since my involvement for the last two years in Great Britain, all the problems that you have with critical illness, all the problems. All those things about definitions, standardisation and all that.... Do you know what, they said it's not justified, tell that to the young farmer of thirty four with a dread disease, his policy when we pay him two hundred thousand pounds in his hospital bed. Say to him it's not justified on his policy, I want the money back. It seems that it is not clarification of definition, tell that to the woman who looked for two, thirteen years after a stroke husband and they had to wait for his death, that you didn't sell him a dread disease policy because there is not clarification of definition. Tell the young mother whose child has just received fifteen thousand pounds after the diagnosis of leukaemia, that you shouldn't have filled the policy because the contexts where not standardised. No ladies and gentlemen, dread disease insurance is a success because it's needed today and tomorrow, and it works. What does it do? and then I'll finish and I'll summarise. If you want me to come back, I'll speak for another five hours. [clapping] What does it do? Think about it very careful, it attains to the threat of loss of own ability. The person has his financial independence threatened by disease, is helped by the dread disease insurance. Compare it with life insurance, death insurance. It accelerates the pay-out by one day, two days, ten days, thirty days, of the death plan, because it pays out on the condition, that's going to be the cause of the death, and not on the death. So it accelerates death. So death insurance, dread disease insurance,, go to much, will do it far better, just quicker. That's all we can do. Inability to work, permanent disability, it accelerates permanent disability because ninety five percent of the conditions that cause the disability will pay out years before you have a disability. I am would claim now for a man who has a disability claim. His accountant said that my stroke is weakening his left arm, he's right-handed. He can speak with a bit of slurring, so what. He says he's got loss of memory, without a stroke, I have that as well, so that makes no difference. He comes and he wants disability. He is not disabled, and yet he makes like he never would have the diagnosis of disability recognised. But dread disease insurance recognised his condition long before disability, and finally what does the dread disease insurance do. It does something even more wonderful, it accelerates critical illness diagnosis by paying out on the disabling condition like loss of limb, where it creates a situation where the permanent person get paid out even before he has a critical condition, because that condition threatens his chances of paying his daily needs due to financial independence. And to continue ladies and gentlemen, I don't think you know where I come from, I've got illiterate parents, you might say that you can see that. My father was a missionary had come from a dusty little town in South Africa, I've got many wonderful experiences in my life, I've had experience of heart transplant. I've the experience of being in a political party that says one man, one vote, release Mandela, and all these things that we were nearly shot for. Today they let prisoners of South Africa say it, it's amazing. But I was also involved in an insurance policy that has been made available for my patients, when they have that worst moment in their lives, you've got cancer, you've had a stroke, to know that in this threat, to what's going to happen to them, they at least have financial independence. I believe that creates the great tomorrow. Life is not only quantity, it's quality as well. You have that choice, that chance to do that for my patients and I tell you, to be with you, to be part of you, I'm as a, I learn for you, I think of you, and I can just tell you, I wish you all the best, but I won't forget your responsibility to help the medical profession to make, with the work they do for a better tomorrow possible, due to your work, your hard attempts to give that financial ability through the best insurance policies on the market today. God bless you, everything of the best, thank you very much. [clapping] [music plays] [Carol:] Would you like to take a five minute stretch whilst before we continue. Right....

[speaker001:] It's er, courtesy, common courtesy. yes, and not going out to find your own knowledge really. You reach a point where you're not certain, then be big enough to say, I don't know, but I can phone our man who does. [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Absolutely, absolutely no problem. Right, let's get [speaker001:] Can you park at the back? Carol, or not? [Carol:] N, er, no, probably no, because we've just, we've just got, we've got three spots, which are ta, are taken most of the week you see, so it's just a bit yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It's only a very short walk down, if you walk through the shops you don't have to go all the way down, you can actually come, just walk past that shop and go down the middle, and you come out through the car park. [Carol:] Are we ready? Smokers?... [speaker001:] I've never been on tour, but I've been to the visitor's centre, and Yes. [incomprehensible] Erm, on page eleven, there's a chart where Because you can all get these things like Guy Fawkes for, but also transcripts for. [Carol:] Welcome to the last session of the day. Yes, er, and we're looking at living assurance. [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] Can I explain all those booklets that I've put out on the table? First of all, there's two booklets here, one's a Covermaster and one's for living assurance, which has got your questions answered at the bottom. It's very good for revision, because it's the type of thing your clients are going to be asking you, and it's the type of thing we're going to be asking you tomorrow. So it's a nice way of revising tonight. It's similar to C V T, you really haven't got any notes technically today, so it, it's nice, erm, booklet to use. There's also the living assurance one the same with questions answered. I've also given you a living assurance rate book, because we'll be looking at both the rate books in a minute. And the living assurance, the guide to er, the illnesses that are covered. The critical illness, just a very brief guide there. [speaker001:] I think we'll need a box. [Carol:] And a pen, one of those each. One of those each, and finally erm, a circular put out by Abbey entitled Women at Risk, which we'll be talking about. [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] Right, so yo, you watched er, Dr. Marius Bernard, erm, the South African, what did you think about the message that came across in the film? What did you think about critical illness assurance? [speaker001:] The importance of insurance. [Carol:] It's a very powerful message isn't it? I mean think er, life assurance erm, obviously it's the to have fails, but if somebody is eligible for, and can afford living assurance, it's got to be a brilliant product. [Philip:] I would think there must be a large part of people out there that could benefit from their estates isn't there? I'm, I'm never [Carol:] You're absolutely right, Philip. O K Sue? Can you carry on your domestic discussion tonight, yes? [LAUGHTER] Erm, yes, you're absolutely right. Let me tell you a little bit about the history. Er, when we introduced Covermaster, erm, thirteen years ago or so now, it was a unique plan. It was actually plagiarised by sixteen other life companies within the first six months. It was copied. One company still calls their whole of life protection plan Mastercover, [LAUGHTER], that's an idea of how much they copied it [] Erm, but of course, very quickly things moved on. Other contracts were available. Er,b, but we were the first company, back in, I think 1987, to bring out living insurance. It was the first company to actually insure against critical illnesses. It had been done before of course. South Africa in the mid-eighties, it was er, common in the States. But we're the first major company in Britain, so our is second to none, our experience with the contract is second to none. It's very, very powerful. You need living assurance because you're not going to die, you need living assurance because you're not going to die. When you look at er, the critical illnesses that are covered, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I mean is there anybody here, who honestly can't think of anybody who they know, I mean, perhaps if I try and rephrase that, is there anybody here who cannot think of somebody who's suffered an illness that fits into that critical illness er, category. I mean we must all know somebody who's had a heart attack, a stroke, cancer etcetera, etcetera. So we, we understand the implications, and to the money to actually put your life to right, is an absolutely wonderful contract. I said we've got er, the best claims experience, I've given you the one pamphlet, Women at Risk, which points out, women used to say, oh, a stroke it won't happen to me, cancer it won't happen to me. But that is quite useful to show what we've already paid out to women, [speaker001:] We, we've got, three over there. [Carol:] Have you got that one somewhere? [speaker001:] Yes, [Carol:] Have you already got those? [speaker001:] No [Carol:] There erm, somewhere along the line, right. I'll, I'll get you some in a minute, er, I'll carry on if er, if er, you don't mind I've got, oh here we are, I fo, I hadn't given them out sorry. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Carol:] So that's very useful to show you how women have been affected but this is on our claims experience. Erm, if you turn over the page it says seventy eight percent of female claims have been on the diagnosis of cancer, and it gives you a breakdown of the condition and the age when diagnosed. All very powerful. A pamphlet that is equally powerful is one called Abbey's Number One for Claims Experience, but unfortunately we don't have any other copies at the moment, so I will leave one on the side so you can look at it. But do ask when you get back to the branch, because it samples claims that Abbey has, have had, erm, it reiterates the statistics that you've just heard, the likelihood of somebody suffering with cancer, heart attacks, strokes etcetera, it er, gives you the ages er, if you choose, write in statistics, the one you've been listening to. Current age, twenty five, the likelihood of somebody having a heart attack or developing cancer before sixty five, heart attack one in ten males, one in thirty nine females, cancer one in ten males, one in ten females. It's, it's horrendous those statistics when you think about it. If we can help people in those circumstances it's got to be a brilliant product. [speaker001:] What, what was that leaflet called please? [Carol:] It's Abbey Number One, Abbey, Abbey Life is Number One for Claims, because we were the first company er, if I put it over there now, it will stop me collecting it and taking in out. They are available as I say, but at the moment our's are being updated. So it's an absolutely brilliant product. Now,..., if we consider ordinary life assurance, somebody first said to me that er, maybe the best erm, sales manager, or sales promoter or publicist or, or whatever, was the person who actually had the idea of calling death insurance, life insurance, yes? How could you fancy ringing up your potential clients, and say, Hello, it's Carol, I'm calling from Abbey Death. [LAUGHTER] it doesn't sound too good does it? But that's what it is isn't it? Ordinary life assurance really means death insurance. What happens if, let's have a look, and compare it with critical illness. On death, the premiums cease, the sum assured is paid on the living assurance or the Covermaster Plan, living expense is reduced, the widow could work or remarry, a potential answers. Critical illness, you've got carry on paying the premiums, with no lump sum paid on living assur, er, on life assurance, the living expenses are likely to increase, because you may have er, somebody who's disabled, paralysed or whatever, there's no chance of the widow returning to work because she's looking after person who's er, ill, and obviously she can't remarry because she's not widowed at this point. So if you compare critical illness and death with what happens at the time, and I've got to ask you this. What carries you away? Well on death, obviously a car first carries you away, if you're ill it's an ambulance. And one simple statement, which do you see the most of when you're travelling around? How many hearses, how many ambulances do you see? [speaker001:] Ambulances. [Carol:] Yes, how many [speaker001:] They take them away at night in Telford, so you only see them [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] So it's a brilliant product and there's got to be a need for it. You don't have to die. This year, almost a quarter of million people were known to have cancer. A hundred thousand will still be alive five years later. A lump sum, we won't ask for it back, and maybe it's been useful for them to adapt their lives in the meantime. Brilliant concept. What I want to do though is, is go through the plan, highlighting the differences. It was based on the Covermaster Plan with added extras. So I don't want to go through all the things that are the same, I want to highlight the differences, and maybe it'll help you in your mind to distinguish between the two products as regards examination and the questionnaire tomorrow. First of all with living assurance it's a whole of life plan that pays on, well we know it pays out on death, and we know it pays out on serious illness, but after that, the pay-out is obviously vast compared with Covermaster. Permanent disability, major organ transplant, paralysis, multiple sclerosis, blindness, terminal illness, and loss of limbs. All of which we have in this brochure defined for us. Now one of the areas we can get involved in when we're talking to our clients is well what do they mean by cancer? Does it count as all cancer, what's a definition of a heart attack. This is quite useful for you to refer to, this booklet, but do please tell your clients you're not a doctor, it's very much up to the client's doctor and our medical underwriters, as to whether we pay out or not. This is just a guide, but a very useful guide. Er, for example, we're talking about a heart attack damage to heart muscle, we're talking about strokes where there's a loss fl,bl, sorry, the flow of blood to the brain, erm, we're talking about cancer, we're talking about an abnormal growth of cells, but not all cancers are covered, a skin cancer which isn't life threatening, isn't covered, erm, as a result of perhaps too much sunbathing etcetera, whereas a melanoma, a cancer that comes into er, a great lump on the skin which can be life-threatening, obviously is. So you have to sort of look carefully. The definitions are here, erm, loss of limbs, yes? Paralysis, when a limb is paralysed there is complete loss of movement and feeling, if you're talking about paralysis, loss of limbs, we're talking about the severance, would you believe, of any two limbs. [speaker001:] Would you tell people if it was from above erm, the elbow or above the knee? And also it would. [Carol:] And also? [speaker001:] Erm, actually there was a mix-up with that yesterday, we were told one limb, One or more limbs Two Two limbs, Two [Carol:] Two limbs, two limbs, for loss of limb, yes, yes. [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] So what I'm saying to you is if you like to refer to this, this will give you the clear definition of what, what's covered in each case. Who can have this plan? Well, the key point there is there's no joint life, last claim. You can write it own life, joint life first claim, or life of another, but you can't l, write it joint life, last claim. Why not, David? [David:] Well erm, well probably because it's not going to benefit the person. [Carol:] Absolutely, does it make sense for, for husband and wife over there to wait for the second one to have a heart attack, or the second one to have a cancer before it pays out, [Gerald:] Come on [Carol:] It really doesn't make sense does it? What was that Gerald? [Gerald:] I said, come on have a heart attack. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] come and have a heart attack [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] So it doesn't make sense, and obviously it isn't er, written joint life, last claim. [speaker001:] Sorry, can I just ask a question there? [Carol:] Certainly. [speaker001:] In the question of no joint life, last claim, [Carol:] mhm [speaker001:] Right,... I've forgotten what I was going to ask now, no it's alright, I was thinking about the circumstances, I was thinking about er, er, a dependent left behind you, sorry. [Carol:] Yes, you, you've sorted it in your own mind? [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Carol:] Good, minimum premiums are the same, twenty pounds and two hundred, but do remember that existing clients, could have a reduced minimum premium of sixteen pounds or a hundred and sixty. What do we mean by an existing client, Shirley? A client that's already got some insurance. Absolutely, and they can actually retain that policy with you that evening. It doesn't have to be one that's issued. So if you start thinking about our client that we've previously erm, who we identified wanted fifty seven thousand pounds worth of life cover, I believe. Maybe the solution would be to put some of that in living assurance, and some of it in Covermaster. Whatever, if we're writing two policies, he can be classed as an existing client, so we could have a reduced minimum. However, do we talk minimum premiums to our clients. [speaker001:] No [Carol:] If you tell somebody you can it for as little as sixteen pounds per month, guess what, that what they'll have. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] If you tell them that to get exactly what they need it's going to cost them thirty pounds a month, and isn't it a brilliant contract, they'll probably have that. O K, let's move on to maximum benefit. What's the maximum benefit on a Covermaster Plan? [Janet:] Five hundred thousand pounds. [speaker001:] Five million [Carol:] Five million, or if, five million, we might do a little bit of reinsuring on that one, don't quote me. Erm, the maximum benefit on living assurance is the figure that Janet come up with just, half a million, five hundred thousand. That's actually on all critical illness cover plans, because if they've got a living assurance, or they've got some other plan that's got critical illness benefit, it's the total maximum that Abbey will insure them for, for critical illness, for heart attacks, stroke etcetera. And includes Keyman cover. It includes Keyman cover. This is an interesting statement. If somebody has er, life cover, and living insurance is over a hundred thousand, they will be subject to the need being established. Whatever does that mean? [speaker001:] They've got to prove that they actually need that much cover. [Carol:] Right, so how are they going to prove it? [speaker001:] Well by showing that their dependents will need that sort of income to come in. [Carol:] Income, we're looking at income. We're looking at financial underwriting. Anything above a hundred thousand, and we're looking at financial underwriting, we're looking at basically four times salary. So if we've got somebody earning nine thousand, they're going to want to know why they're insuring themselves for a hundred thousand on living insurance benefit. O K, so financial underwriting, is on a hundred thousand and above, you look at four times salary. Erm,... Right, erm, we get this thorny question now about how to establish how much somebody needs for living assurance. If we just go back to the plan in the future, erm, and we move down to this section here, let's look at the questions we're asking. [reading] If you were to become critically ill or disabled, would you like some or all of your life assurance capital sum to be paid to you immediately, if so, how much? [] Now that's a difficult question to ask people, yes? How much would you like in the event of a heart attack or a stroke, it's very difficult for them to decide. Erm, what type of things do you think would actually affect that decision? [speaker001:] Size of the mortgage. [Carol:] Size of the mortgage, that could well be the first point of call isn't it? Which most of us will have a mortgage protected against death, I E, the sum assured is released to repay the loan, what happens if we get a critical illness, heart attack, stroke, etcetera, and can't work. You're still going to have problems repaying your mortgage. So ideally, the size of the mortgage is a good starting point. What other things do you think we could use to determine how much? [speaker001:] Erm, If they'll need special care. [Carol:] Yes, but lo, but then we've so, we've got to pre-judge a little bit then, as to what illness they're going to have, and that gets a bit difficult. But you're right, we're, we're taking into account extra costs. [speaker001:] Age and, sorry Talk about That's O K, it's about the children Er, Carry on, you go then If the children are er, privately educated, and it's high, high expenses that you would want to carry on with. [Carol:] It might well be something that is very important to you to maintain, even if you can't carry on working through illness. Absolutely right. [speaker001:] Age, because you might be considering well, er, if something happens dramatically, at say fifty, fifty two, or something like that, you might just go and retire, so you would be set up in that respect. [Carol:] So how would you determine how much you need? How much the sum assured would be [speaker001:] Erm, well by virtue I suppose really, of your operating need, if you like, your, your yearly operating expenses. [Carol:] Yes, you're, you're approaching it from er, a similar method to Sue over there, you're saying how much would I need to, to survive and you're talking small businessmen really, aren't you? In that effect, yes, yes? [speaker001:] Sort of, yes. [Carol:] You could be looking at a minimum of one, two, three years' salary, because you might be thinking well at least that'll give me a chance to get on, to get back on my feet. I mean it's a fact isn't it, that there are a lot of people, the first heart attack is just a, a danger signal, you know, beware, take things easy, look after yourself, you've been putting your body under too much stress. But what happens if you're not financially secure, is that you're off work with a heart attack, you're rushing back to work because you need your income. You're putting your body under more stress. So you have another heart attack. Yes, it actually gives you time to recover. [David:] It could be length of time your children have got in, in further education. If they're already in college, you might [Carol:] Could well be because you're looking at making sure that they, they fulfil what is a dream for you and for them. It's a similar point to Sue, was making. Absolutely. So it, it could be just debts. [speaker001:] Can I just ask a question. It's just slightly off er, the track at the moment, if you were writing a living assurance plan for someone, and they'd already got a Covermaster plan, [Carol:] Mhm, right [speaker001:] Or, or other benefits that would actually kick in at a certain point, er, of death, I mean obviously this would actually help at erm, diagnosis, and you're writing into this, sort of to cover all of the things that we're talking about, and they get that, and then they continue to live, the rest of your plans are all then thrown out aren't they, because you've got all those things that you've put into place for death, sorted out in the years before. [Carol:] Right, well, well, actually yes, what, what you look at, is, is what's important to you and you put a cash value on it, and it might be the mortgage, it might be education, it might be giving yourself a couple of years' salary and paying debts or whatever, er, and the security of knowing that O K, if I die, I'm not leaving a problem for my family, but at the same time if I'm in a situation where I get a serious illness and I can't bring in an income, I'm securing my, my, my future in that respect. So of course, after that, your uninsured, which is absolutely true, but at the same time, erm, you're really just bringing forward the pay-out when it's needed most. It's, it's a brilliant contract for single people. You can't, people, single people without dependents are really not very interested in life assurance, because on their death they're dead, you know, as long as they don't leave any debts they're not too bothered. But suddenly they can't be independent if they have er, er, a, an illness, a problem. Suddenly this means a lot to them. Yes? Critical illness cover, that's great. Excuse me a minute. [door knock] [speaker001:] Sorry to interrupt, I've come to collect the packet. [Carol:] Oh right, it's the bag, sorry there isn't one tonight. [speaker001:] See you then [Carol:] Thanks for coming then, yes, bye. That's good, I forgot the post. Erm, where was I? What was I talking about? [speaker001:] Single people. [Carol:] Single people, brilliant isn't it? Er, there must be a worry in a lot of people, single people's minds what happens to me when I get older and in ill-health, how will I cope? Well if they can afford to buy in help and to sort their life out, you've suddenly got a product that they really want to buy. I mean this, this product, if people have got the health to buy it, because we're obviously not going to take on people that are in poor health, they can afford it, because obviously as they get older, the risk is greater and it becomes more expensive, it sells itself, it really does, it's a brilliant product. [speaker001:] Presumably you can it can cost to an existing life policy [Carol:] Absolutely, yes. [speaker001:] So that even if you've these benefits, that other life cover would then go on to [Carol:] Absolutely, yes, because an ordinary life policy won't pay out, so if you've got a combination of Covermaster and living assurance, you've got your life policy to pay out on death, and your living assurance to pay out on critical illness. And if it's a sudden death, well, they'll both pay out anyway. [David:] Erm, to make it more affordable, you could reduce the life cover, by the amount of life cover on the living master. [Carol:] Yes, yes you could. You'll find what you're doing er, and in a way, it's a comfort to you, that you take, you get all this information, and you take it away, and very often there's not one clear answer. You need to think about the person's circumstances, and that's where it's great, that you can come back and sit down with your manager, and he's going to say to you well what do you think. And he's either going to say well that's great, that's exactly what I would suggest, or have you considered this, have you considered that, which is a great security when you're starting. Er, when you're starting out and you're not sure of all, of all the options. There is a suggested minimum, but if, if, if it's right for the person and they can afford it, that a minimum of forty thousand pounds is, is, is er, er, an industry suggested figure of a minimum. But that's as I say, after looking at mortgage, salaries, etcetera.... Waiver of premiums, exactly the same, not exactly the same, sorry, very similar to er, as with Covermaster, it's automatically built into the first life assured, it's payable until you return to work, reach the age of sixty, or pay-out of a claim. I mean, to die is not absolutely correct there is it, because I mean you could actually have a pay-out on critical illness, which happens earlier. But very similar to Covermaster.... Built into the first life assured. Does that mean the second life assured can't have it? [speaker001:] Presumably no. [Carol:] No, it means they can have it as an option. Why's it built into the first life assured? [speaker001:] It's likely the first life would be the man. [Carol:] The first life, well it doesn't have to be the man, but if, if you write the application so [speaker001:] It's the breadwinner [Carol:] yes, the breadwinner, the main breadwinner, you're absolutely right. We're talking here of protection, of they can't have waiver of premium because of ill-health, they're not going to be able to have living assurance, so it, it's not an option really for them to have one without the other, because it's an automatic protection that, that really should be the basis of somebody's package of their health commitment to have it. So it's automatically built in to the first life assured, but it is an option for the second if they want it. That's waiver of premium.... Again, just to remind you of waiver of premium, this is exactly the same as the Covermaster so you really won't need to cover, copy this, it's charged as we established earlier, as according to your client's age and sex I E how old they are and what gender they are, you can see how the percentage of the premium is established. A joint life charge will calculated as the sum of the individual charges, we looked at that earlier, the maximum age at which waiver of premium can be added to a new policy is fifty five, next birthday. And can I tell you, that if we'd just done Covermaster, somebody could have picked up a point there. Er, maximum age on new policy somebody new can have waiver of premium who's fifty five next birthday. So that's, that should all be very familiar to you. H I V exclusion. That's an interesting one. We've got somebody who's got a living assurance policy with us, it's going to pay out er, on diagnosis of any of those serious illnesses, and then they contract H I V, which if they had originally, we obviously wouldn't give it to them, but they contract it after the policy is enforced. Do you think that we're actually going to pay out the sum assured? [speaker001:] Yes yes [Carol:] Mm, Gerald, Ilias, not sure, could do, maybe, yes? Erm, well, we will pay out except under current disability. So we will pay out eventually, but we will not pay out under the permanent disability clause. Er, H I V, the aids virus is a, a debilitating disease, we won't pay out initially because as soon as on diagnosis you could basically say they are, er, they've got a debilitating disease, but we will pay out as soon as the illness actually affects some other part of the body er, and moves in to another disease. Because you don't actually die of H I V do you? You die of something else? [speaker001:] No, No what you get from it. [Carol:] Yes, what you get from it. So we will pay out, er, any of the other serious illnesses, paralysis, major organ transplant, etcetera, death, but not on permanent disability. That's the only exclusion. [speaker001:] It's not just because this illness is self-, it's self-inflicted er, cause, er, you've obviously picked this up from a variety of other er, I'd say, sources, but you also pick it up in you know, blood transfusions situation. [Carol:] True, yes. Er, once the policy's enforced, we don't look at how somebody's contracted the illness. All we will say is you have a policy with us, you now have H I V, we will pay out eventually, because you, you're going to die, you'll probably die as they are then, or one of these other illnesses will be diagnosed, we just won't pay out on permanent disability. [speaker001:] How much of a check do they actually go into if somebody makes a claim on that? [Carol:] In what le? [speaker001:] Well to check all the facts basically, because something like H I V, if, if you're not in a category that's obviously erm, likely to catch it, you know, how would they really know that you've got it or not? [Carol:] The company you mean? The, the [speaker001:] Well sometimes the people don't know, but how the company clarifies he had it, knowledge of things before your client contracted it? [Carol:] Well, well there's two things really. The people, if they don't know about it, they can't erm, tell us about it basically. Erm, if they start to have an illness and it develops we'll obviously be talking to their doctor, I mean if it's apparent that they're blind on the form, well then, obviously we would looking the amount we paid, or, or, erm, basically come to some agreement on that. If it was obvious that there'd been a false declaration. If on the other hand if they got it genuinely after the policy was enforced, that's the risk that we take. That's really why the policy is there, isn't it? Er, the risks that peo, they will incur later on. [speaker001:] Erm, just on that H I V thing there, is that, isn't it a bit confusing isn't it, in that we don't actually pay out on H I V full stop, on Aids full stop, it is, it's really the other, the other things. [Carol:] They're going to happen aren't they, and H I V is the cause of it, but not, it doesn't cause the death of some oth, you, people don't die of H I V [speaker001:] No [Carol:] The, the, the body's immune system gets something further, some of the others [speaker001:] No, it's alright, I was looking in here, because I mean, it, I er, you know, I saw in the er, when I looked in the manual it said it didn't pay out on H I V, so it. yes it is confusing. [Carol:] It is confusing, perhaps it doesn't pay out on immediate diagnosis, only when one of the other illnesses takes over yes, [speaker001:] And in which case, they've not paid out on the H I V, it's [Carol:] It's later on. [speaker001:] It's as a result of [Carol:] And if they are going to pay out full stop. [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] It's just prolonging it a little bit. [speaker001:] Sorry, just one other point on W O P there, I may have got it wrong, did you say earlier on that er, that if you get H I V, so the W O P benefit isn't payable, what about the al, did we say the allocation of W O P will still continue? [Carol:] yes, you don't, er, once it's established it's not changed at all throughout the plan, so if you, if you get H I V, and you can't have W O P, it's just tough I'm afraid. But on the other hand if you, if get serious illness and, and W O P benefit comes into effect, you've got a load of benefit from it so it's swings and roundabouts, on that then. [speaker001:] Ah, so you can still get the W O P benefits from, it's the same as the thing earlier on? It doesn't mean that the W O P is cancelled all together, when [Carol:] If you've got H I V, you, you don't get waiver of premiums full stop. [speaker001:] On anything, even if you, three weeks after you get run over, and [Carol:] No, no you don't get it at all. [speaker001:] That's a bit unfair isn't it? So if somebody gets H I, yes, because gets, takes out a policy at twenty five, gets diagnosed H I V at thirty, and they're still living, they haven't actually got full blown aids, and they can live for a hell of a long time afterwards, they're paying their W O P premium for a long, long time. You could have somebody on twenty five, who when they're twenty six er, contracting a debilitating disease, never goes back to work, and we pay their premiums until they die at sixty. It's the swings and roundabout argument isn't it? Yes, O K. [Carol:] Yes, it's a bit difficult really. Some people win, and some people are losers [speaker001:] Argue with you, and then we get the answers on what to tell the customers [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Erm, what happens if somebody makes a partial or full recovery? Do we ask for their money back? [speaker001:] No [Carol:] No we don't. It's er, our risk and the client's good fortune. And of course, you could say that, that could be happening more and more with the advances in medical science. People have been diagnosed with cancer etcetera, erm, in fact at the convention yesterday, they had some clients on the stage, one lady had been diagnosed with breast cancer, she got a pay-out from living assurance, five years later she's been cleared, and, and she's thrilled to bits about it. And they also had Roy Castle up on the stage [speaker001:] Would she have continued a different level of cover? [Carol:] Sorry? Would she have continued a different level of cover, She probably wouldn't have got them [speaker001:] Of insurance cover after that? [Carol:] She probably wouldn't have got any cover after that, she probably would have been uninsurable. Yes. What's not available on living assurance. Well we know that there's no joint life, last claim, but actually you can't take a partial surrender. You take some of the money out of the living assurance plan. Why do you think that is? You can't take some of the money out of the plan?... Why? [speaker001:] It's not a savings plan. [Carol:] Well it's not a savings plan, but in Covermaster, you can take some of the money if, if you need to, if, we'll tell you that the life cover might be, er, at risk, but you can't do that at all in living assurance. You either surrender it and take the whole cash, or keep it running, you can't take some of the money. It, it's really because as somebody gets older the risk gets very, very great, and it needs all the money that's built up in the early years to sustain the risk, the charges for the risk later on, in the later years. You do need all your money to offset that, so that we can charge you what we call a level premium throughout the period. There isn't really er, anticipating much spare cash. [speaker001:] The benefit can't be reduced then to meet the fund in the way that er, [Carol:] Well, I've got to be honest, if you actually ask and negotiate with the company, it can offer reduced benefits and reduced premiums to the client's circumstances, but it's not generally advertised. [speaker001:] No. [Carol:] Additional insurability option, you know the one for twenty five thousand on birth and marriage. It's not available on living assurance. It's not available. You can't offer people er, that. However, they can have the index linked insurability, they can increase it in line with the Retail Price Index without further medical evidence. This is actually brilliant. It's good on Covermaster, but if you think you can keep your living assurance in line with inflation even when you're likely to be coming into poor health, it is a brilliant concept. Right, so those are the unavailable features.... Just one more thing that may have been mentioned yesterday when Jess was going through the legal and underwriting session, this applies to both Covermaster and living assurance. It actually can be a selling pitch. [reading] Between the commencement date of the application and acceptance by Abbey Life of the risk, the life assured will be covered for death as a result of an accident, the lower of the sum assured or fifty thousand pounds. [] That's before we've even accepted them. So you're actually saying, you go to somebody's house, and you take an application, in the processing period, they die in an accident, we will pay out, whether we were going to accept them or not, we will pay out, but it's only on accident. The age of the older life, as long as they don't exceed sixty five next birthday, and they're not engaged in any occupation or pursuit that could be considered hazardous. So it's just an extra, erm, benefit that's on, on for most of our policies one way or another, still covered between formal acceptance. Shirley? Does that mean even before they pay their first premium? Well it could technically, it depends how you set it up. Er, you can set up these plans to start with a direct debit, which means it probably takes fourteen days to get that sorted with the bank, they'll allow fourteen days. I am still firmly of the belief that I like to walk out of the client's house with a cheque, because that's a commitment, and then the next premium comes out of the direct debit. So even if the associate has, has er, obtained the cheque but hasn't managed to get it in the next day, and he dies in an accident. We would pay out. We'd take the cheque as well though. Erm, we, you'll actually find companies er, are very good in these circumstances. When I was working Edgbaston, one of my colleagues went to see er, a couple er, one night. Came into work the next morning. Erm, the phone call rang, and it was the, the wife saying that her husband had died in his sleep that night. Now when Abbey looked at the policy, because he'd got the Covermaster policy, the cheque and everything, there was nothing there to indicate that there was a problem. There was no medical problem highlighted that he knew about that he should have disclosed on the form. It was just basically, one of those things, and Abbey paid out, because they said we would have done it, we would have accepted him on this anyway. Now you can't tell your clients this will happen, but Abbey will do, obviously like, like any life assurance company there is goodwill in that. [speaker001:] But there is goodwill, we should make more of that shouldn't we, [Carol:] Absolutely, but they don't, but they don't do they, I mean, bad news everybody wants to know about, but, but not good news. O K, so, that's really all I've got to say about living assurance, of all the, it's just got to be, a brilliant contract, and if you can afford it, you need it yourself. And if you can afford it, you need to sell it to all your clients, because it is absolutely brilliant. Any questions yourselves? It's gone quiet. Right, let's move on to the last session, where we're going to be looking at the rate books. Working out the cost of these premiums, and we'll start with the Covermaster, and we'll use your workbooks. So if you can find an example in your workbook, and you can find your Covermaster rate book, and you'll also need a calculator. Ah, yes, I think it was, because I had it after you, didn't I, John? [John:] Thanks [Carol:] Page fourteen I think in the workbook. [speaker001:] Indeed [Carol:] We'll have a look through how to work those out just br, just briefly. There's a lot of erm, conflicting ideas about using Abbey's rate book and, and you might look very confusing in itself, but actually it's not half so bad as it seems. [speaker001:] What are we doing? [Carol:] There are certain associates, who're not going to use a rate book, there's associates who er, because you're doing a two appointment sale, will always have time to come back to the office and get a computer quote and go back with the right answer. There's other associates who like to know beforehand roughly how much they can provide for people by way of life cover and living assurance, so that they can give the people some idea, or maybe want to sit in front of them and use the rate book to give them some idea. Until you're in a situation where you've got your own lap-top computer, and you can tell them instantly. Now you don't have to rely on this, because you can ring through to head office in the evening, or you can ring through your branch while that's open, and get a computer quote over the phone, but actually find it quite useful if somebody asks me to be able to give them an idea of how much it's going to cost them. And if it's a few pence out, they're not going to worry about it, particularly if I tell them, I, I added a bit on so that I'm telling them less. Now, if we look at the first example, we've got a single male client, aged thirty four next birthday. If you look at your rate book, you'll see that the pages are determined by the ages of the clients and whether you use the front of the book or the back of the back of the book, are determined by whether he's a smoker or a non-smoker. Now this client is a non-smoker and he's thirty four next birthday, so we're using the front of the book. But we haven't got any page numbers in these new rate books, [speaker001:] yes,... no [Carol:] No, so we should be age thirty four, and it should have non-smoker at the top, so it's right at the front, the commonest mistake is to look up smokers in non-smokers, and non-smokers in smokers. Yes? Non-smoker that's right.... Everybody on the right page?... Now before you go racing ahead there's a couple of things that I need to tell you, so can I show you how to do the first one, and then you can race on with it. Erm, if you look at this you can see it's set out first of all in escalating premiums and level premiums, O K, that's straightforward enough. You can see that the page is entitled Covermaster for ten thousand pounds sum assured, so basically whatever figures are quoted underneath are for every ten thousand pounds of life cover available to your client, so it you want forty thousand you multiply by four etcetera. However, that isn't the end of the sum because you do have to add a policy fee, and we're not talking expense charge here, of one pound nineteen, we are talking a number which has been devised so that you get right answer from the rate book. That is all, it's got nothing to do with expenses or anything else. It's like some algebraic equations that we sometimes use. Er, if you can remember at school working out equations, as long as you filled in the, the right bits in the right place, you got the right answer. I'm afraid it's a bit like that. We're using a policy fee, now the policy fee at the moment is one pound ninety eight. However, because we're going to include waiver of premium automatically for most of our clients it's got to be the best thing, the best option, we're looking at two pounds and tuppence as a policy fee, because that's including two percent waiver of premiums. So we're looking at a policy fee of two pounds and tuppence. Now if like me, if somebody asked you how much it costs, you're going to give them an approximation, it's quite adequate to add on two pounds. The tuppence doesn't matter too much. [speaker001:] Is that per month? [Carol:] That's per month, yes. [speaker001:] Per ten thousand. [Carol:] No, not per ten thousand, per month. [speaker001:] Just per month. [Carol:] Per month. [speaker001:] Per policy [Carol:] Per policy [speaker001:] It, it's the same fee regardless of the policy rates. [Carol:] Absolutely, yes. So if we look now at the example we've got here. He wants a hundred thousand sum assured, escalating premium with waiver of premium on the sum assured for life. Well if we look under escalating premium and single life male, that's the first column, we come to the figure of three pound fifty five? He wants that three pound fifty five for every ten thousand, that's obviously thirty five pounds fifty, add on the policy fee, thirty seven pounds fifty. If you want to be totally accurate, thirty seven pounds fifty two. Now it may differ slightly by a penny from the computer quote anyway, so I always say, if that was me, it's going to cost you, what was it,thirt, what did it work it out, [speaker001:] Thirty seven pounds fifty. [Carol:] It's going to cost you under thirty eight pounds, so I've got a little bit of wei, leeway if I made a few mistakes. And when you go back with thirty seven fifty, or fifty two, he's quite happy. The selected period, O K, in this case, the selected period is fifteen years, yes? Now if we go back to the same example, the cost per every ten thousand for fifteen years is one pound fifty seven. So if he wants a hundred thousand, for every ten thousand it's one pound fifty seven, it's going to cost him fifteen pounds seventy, and add two pounds, it's seventeen seventy. It's quite simple really? O K. What do you notice about seventeen seventy though? Can we charge somebody seventeen pounds seventy for a policy? [speaker001:] No there's a minimum premium. [Carol:] It's below the minimum premium, so what will he have to pay? [speaker001:] Twenty pounds [Carol:] Twenty pounds, what will happen to the remaining two pounds thirty odd? [speaker001:] It buys increased life cover. [Carol:] No it buys him more units. So he's going to get the benefit of it anyway, in the cash value. [speaker001:] That, that twenty pounds, that, that's inclusive of the two, of the policy fee? [Carol:] That includes the policy fee. Yes? Right, can I ask you then, to do example two. We've done example one together, can I now ask you to do example two, which basically is the sum, is the same sum but the client's a smoker, so you go to the back of the book. Then example three yes, which is over the page.... [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Carol:] Right, O K. [speaker001:] [constant sound like hoovering in background, speech inaudible]. [Carol:] That's for one hundred thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's right, and when we looked at the fifteen years, that's the for fifteen years, that's again for twenty five. for two hundred thousand, multiply that by the same, Have, have a, have a try on, on this one, [speaker001:] Yes, [Carol:] You start this example exactly the same, but Harry's a smoker, And work through as the example, O K. Have you done number three? Good,... Example three where you've got a joint life policy, the male gives you the page name, the female will give you the, because it will say joint life, and it will have the female age in groups. Mm? [speaker001:] Say that's how [Carol:] Joint lives, first claim, the male age will give you the page, and the female age will tell you which of those vertical column to use, where it says. The male's thirty,... so you move to thirty, [speaker001:] this man's, [Carol:] yes, and she's thirty two, so you go to thirty, they have joint life, so you go to thirty, that's the one to use. [speaker001:] So you wouldn't look on the, the older [Carol:] No, no, you look on the male age, look at the male age. [speaker001:] Right, that's always the case? [Carol:] That's always the case, yes, not the older, male age for page, female age for column. [speaker001:] So that's the back of the thirty column? [Carol:] Absolutely erm, is it escalating or level premium that they're paying. [speaker001:] Level [Carol:] Level, so that's right, level premiums Kim, I think it's the next section down here. [speaker001:] It says here, [Carol:] Yes, I think you've got it explained. [David:] Thanks, yes, yes. [speaker001:] ... [LAUGHTER] [David:] The reason I put them over here, was because of the level of the sum assured [Carol:] Right, [David:] But er, [Carol:] The minimum level [speaker001:] Are we doing example four, is that alright? [Carol:] Not at the moment because I haven't gone through how to do that. [speaker001:] Stop showing off [Carol:] There you are, happy, do as you're told. [speaker001:] There he goes again.... [Carol:] yes, that's right...., three pounds eighty, that's thirty one pounds eighteen, is that, that's right, good. Fifteen years, is three pound eighty, yes, so, you, I think you must have gone down, yes you went down to the level one, yes? [David:] The only thing that I'm not sure about, [Carol:] Right, let's have er, er, so far, if you're a bit slower, don't worry about it, you're not going to be asked to calculate these er, in your exam tomorrow. Er, and you can spend some time looking at it in your own time, I E, going at your own pace, over the problems. Erm, example two then. The sum assured for life was how much, anybody? [speaker001:] Example two, fifty eight, eighty two. yes, fifty eight, eight two [Carol:] Fifty eight, eighty two, [speaker001:] That's the premium, yes [Carol:] Yes, that's the premium, I said the sum assured, sorry, I'm reading it off here. [speaker001:] It's the end of the day. [Carol:] Er, the premium, fifty eight, eighty two, the selected period, at fifteen years of premium was? [David:] Thirty three [speaker001:] thirty three [Carol:] Three, thirty three [speaker001:] Thirty two [Carol:] Eighteen, two. Right. Example three, the cost of the sum assured of life? [speaker001:] Eighty pounds seventy four. [Carol:] Eighty, seventy four? [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] And for twenty years? [speaker001:] Fifty five, eighty six. [Carol:] Fifty five, eighty six. Brilliant. It's easy really, isn't it? [speaker001:] If you get the right column. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes, [] And you're sitting there in front of a client, checking that you've got smoker and not non-smoker etcetera, etcetera. Let's look at er, example four. Let's not, let me put it easier. Erm, let's say you had a client who knew how much they could afford to spend, so what you were doing then was you'd tell them how much life cover you could afford. So let's start simply, let's say your client could actually afford forty two pounds a month. The first thing you'd have to do, is take off the policy fee. Remember the last thing you did was add it on, so if we say it's two pounds, we're back down to forty pounds that he's got to buy units. If you look at any page, you'll see the bottom part of the page will tell you how much life assurance he can get for every ten pounds he's got to spend. So if we were looking at somebody who was thirty four next birthday, and a non-smoker, which was where we started today, thirty four next birthday, non-smoker, let's have a female this time. A single female paying level premiums, she would actually get twenty four thousand, six hundred and thirty pounds life cover for every ten pounds she's got to spend. If she's got forty pounds left, she can have four times that. It's easy when the figures are easy. What are you going to then for somebody who's got thirty pounds to spend? You take off, you've got twenty two pounds, once, twenty eight pounds once you've taken off the policy fee, but you're not going to multiply it by twenty eight, you're going to multiply by, how many tens, two point eight, yes?... The last two examples, I'm actually going to ask you to do tonight rather than keep you here this evening. Example four, you notice it says how much cover would you, and that's you as an individual, knowing whether you smoke or not, obviously knowing your age, get if you spend thirty pounds a month with an escalating premium, and waiver of premium? One for life and one for a selected period. And then example five, living assurance on the same basis, but obviously you're going to get less because the risks are higher. So I would ask you tonight, if you could work out those two sums for yourself, and see how you get on with that. [speaker001:] Are you going to? [David:] If you want it. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] Erm, if somebody could spend a little bit of time with Ilias because we've got this language problem and I know that he's found this a little bit difficult, I think he would appreciate it tonight, when you get together please. I'll leave it at that, erm, rate book, it needs practice at the end of the day. Some of you will pick it up very simp, easily, others need to have a few tries at it. I was talking on Sue, I was saying if you've got a client who didn't give you the convenient forty two pounds, but said you'd got forty or thirty pounds to spend, the first thing you've got to do is take off the two pounds policy fee, so you're left in this case, with thirty eight pounds. Er, she gets that for every ten pounds she's got to spend, so you multiply it by three point eight, yes? [Sue:] Oh, right. Yes, I get it now. [Carol:] Right, so where are we? [David:] Well I'm lost at the moment. [Carol:] You've lost, I've lost you on this last one, Kim have I? [David:] It's this last one. [Carol:] Let me go through it again, I, I did rush through it. Can we just spare a couple of minutes so we can get this straight, because I did rush through it, and it was, er, obviously wrong of me. This time, let's have this client who's aged thirty four next birthday, erm, non-smoker, it's the page we've been using, let's say our client can afford now, forty pounds, because they're likely to talk to us in terms of tens or fives, so forty pounds. So we go to the page, thirty four next birthday,... non-smoker. [speaker001:] Male or female? [Carol:] We'll have a female,... and she's paying, let's say escalating premiums.... The bottom half of the page is how much she gets for every ten pounds she's got to spend, but before we find out she's got to spend, what we've got to do is take off the policy fee. So forty pounds minus the two pounds, or if you want to be totally accurate, two pounds and tuppence, policy fee,... will leave thirty seven pounds ninety eight. That's what she's got to spend to buy life assurance. The other way round, we added the policy fee in last. So it can be thirty seven ninety eight, or if you're approximating it, it can be thirty eight pounds as you wish. When you look at the rate book, a single female, escalating, with the a sum assured for life, will come to nineteen, seven two three. Is that right, somebody check that for me? [speaker001:] Say that again. [Carol:] Escalating, female, thirty four next birthday, with a sum assured for life, single female. [speaker001:] Is that a non-smoker? [Carol:] Non-smoker, yes. What's the figure? [David:] Thirty four, seven twenty two [speaker001:] Thirty four thousand seven hundred and twenty two. [Carol:] Non-smoker? I'm on living assurance, I thought that was low. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Sorry, I've got the wrong page. [speaker001:] , [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] Right, let's start again, same page, what have I got there? Thirty four, seven two, two. [speaker001:] Yes, that's right. [Carol:] Just testing, really, just testing. Thirty four, seven, two, two, and that's for every ten pounds she's got to spend. How much has she got to spend? She's got thirty seven pounds and ninety eight. [speaker001:] Three point seven [Carol:] It can be three point seven eight, seven nine eight, or you can just multiply and divide by ten for how many ten pounds there are. Which ever. You can move the decimal point, or multiply and divide by ten.... She's got thirty seven pounds ninety eight to spend, she gets that amount for every ten pounds, so you want to know how many ten pounds there are in thirty seven ninety eight, so you can write it out as a division sum or you can just move the decimal point. Which ever you're comfortable with, [clears throat], I think I'm losing my voice. Kim has that helped? [David:] Yes, I couldn't find that figure where you were [Carol:] Good, fine, I'm not surprised, I was looking in the wrong rate book wasn't I? So er, that's not surprising. What about Sue? Sue, alright? John, alright? [John:] Yes, fine, no, that's fine, I just don't. [Carol:] , yes, Ilias, I know,y, you, you're getting there aren't you? [Ilias:] yes [Carol:] Yes, right, I know Shirley's fine. Andrew's fine, he's packing up, he's on his way home, [speaker001:] Why have I got page? Don't know Actually all these pages are all lose [Carol:] Oh, do you think they're coming out, they're, they're going? [speaker001:] It's pages thirty six to forty five, on insurance. It's thirty five Oh, we'll get the other one. [Carol:] These are the new rate books, we've literally only had them through this week. Erm, Gerald's pointed out a problem, could you look in your living assurance rate books and see if you go from thirty six next birthday, to forty five next birthday, on the smoker section? [speaker001:] No, Kim's, Kim's is alright. [Carol:] Kim's is alright? Could you check whether it's just one or [David:] Thirty six was that? [Carol:] Thirty six, look at the thirty six year old, [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] And do you go straight to forty five? [speaker001:] No, no No, I don't have that one. [Carol:] Anybody else who's got a problem on the rate book. [speaker001:] No, that's no problem [Carol:] You've got twenty eight to thirty seven? [speaker001:] You've given me Covermaster. I've got one here for ninety five, is that right? There's one at the back. [Carol:] Let's have a look, no that one, that one is right. Have you got er, a problem? [speaker001:] That's not right, it's on living assurance. [Carol:] Right, hang on a second, I'll get you one when we've finished, I'll leave a cheque. O K, so far so good. So is Phil talking it through? [speaker001:] No, it's alright. [Carol:] You're alright, good. So, let's wrap up the day now. In your workbook,... O K? [speaker001:] yes, I am. [Carol:] With erm, that last bit? [speaker001:] Well, erm, I was just trying to do it, do it, do the example four, whilst I was here, so that if I have a problem, I, I can ask about it before I go on to example five. [Carol:] Well example four is yourself. [speaker001:] Yes, I know [Carol:] Which you can do tonight, we can go over it tomorrow. [speaker001:] But it, it's the method of how you get it, that's the [Carol:] Which is the same as, as the ones before [speaker001:] I, I, I was just You multiply it by that. Right. [Carol:] And you can check it tonight with any of the colleagues in the hotel to see how you're getting on. [speaker001:] Yes, right. [Carol:] In your workbook can I draw your attention to page seventeen. [speaker001:] In the? [Carol:] Workbook. [speaker001:] I've put everything away. [Carol:] We, we'll do it afterwards, O K, in a sec. Kim, we'll get you sorted out before you go. Covermaster, living assurance, adaptable policies, it's a summary. It's talking about a scenario John and Mary, page seventeen. I'd like to ask you to er, read it through, and the application form that Jeff gave you yesterday, yes? [speaker001:] yes [Carol:] I'm going to ask you to fill in that application form as regards John and Mary as your fictitious clients, all the information is on page twenty one. Page twenty one in the same book, the scenario comes first, then the information, for the application form. [speaker001:] It's a scenario. [Carol:] It's a scenario, yes. [speaker001:] Oh, bang goes your beer tonight. [Carol:] Well you didn't come up here to enjoy yourself now Philip. [Philip:] No, I was just asking. [Carol:] [LAUGHTER] yes, it's tonight, it's filling in the application form, but we're asking you to read the scenario so you know a little bit about the people, and then this is all the information that's been gathered. What you will have to do though, is work out the cost of the premiums, that will give you the practice with the rate books. If you have a problem, do not worry, we'll pick it up first thing tomorrow. No problem at all. But I'm sure you'll probably sort it out with your colleagues way before then. [speaker001:] But we're not going to get tested on this? [Carol:] You're not getting tested on working out premiums at all. No test on working out premiums. Big smile on Ilias's face. Yes. [speaker001:] Just one, the information for the application form. [Carol:] That's the app, the information for the application form. [Janet:] When do we get to sleep? [Carol:] You don't sleep, you don't sleep, Janet. [Janet:] I suppose I'm going to do, that while I'm doing it for each course, [Carol:] Absolutely, you could, you could actually work it all out while you're waiting for the course. So revise Covermaster and living assurance, two separate exams on the skills, complete the application form, and the rest of you will be fine. And the rest of the evening you can enjoy yourselves. Kim? [David:] When we come to revise, it's really more appropriate that we read through these [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carol:] yes, they're very good, because they come, they come up with the points and the put it in the way relating to the clients, what the clients would want to know. Any questions, what the clients would want to know. Any questions [John:] Yes, thank you. [Carol:] A pleasant evening in the hotel, if there is a problem tonight with er, [speaker001:] The food. [Carol:] The food taking too long, we'll ring them up tomorrow, but historically, we've found that by tonight, they've usually sorted the problem out. [speaker001:] I think tonight will be slower, because I mean, it's this Bird's Eye thing, and we all start [Carol:] Oh, it's the Bird's Eye thing as well. [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [Carol:] Oh right, it's a shame you won't be able to go to it then. That's really sad.

[speaker001:] Right as far as I'm concerned we've completed the first four points on the agenda right. Yeah? Point five is under your name what's that all about? [Brett:] Right well just that er it's been resolved a bit since I handled it cos er got this meeting set up which I don't know whether, whether you need to come, it's on the second of February [Gary:] Yeah [Brett:] And we're going to discuss er the likes of and and myself and Stuart er how we're gonna allocate the national accounts and who's gonna do what and just clarify [Gary:] What what what accounts and whose portfolio? [Brett:] Yeah [Gary:] Are you asking me whether I wanna be in there? [Brett:] I was just mentioning it to you in case you wanted to [Gary:] Don't wanna. No, you can sort it out between yourselves can't you? [Brett:] Yeah, so that was that. I just wanted to actually sort of mention it to so that he knows cos he's obviously invited to come if he wants to [speaker001:] I don't think there's going to be any dramatic changes [Gary:] Well he should be there if you're there he should be there [Brett:] Yeah exactly [Gary:] Well just tell him to be there [Brett:] Yeah, okay [Gary:] You,,,, and, yeah? [Brett:] Yeah and new people if they're on board [speaker001:] They won't be there by the second [Brett:] No way [speaker001:] So that was just that one er... nineteen ninety-three [Gary:] So is that is that point five gone is it, yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah, only because it's [Gary:] Well you do have clearly define it you don't want yourself [speaker001:] Got er got an agenda here The key issue is really the multiples isn't it? [Gary:] Yeah [speaker001:] About how far down we go and how far up mob goes [Gary:] done this agenda where she wants where we need to discuss allocation of non-national accounts, national accounts, regional accounts, special offers, plans for nineteen ninety [speaker001:] I think that one of the most confusing aspects is this word corporates, what's a national account corporate, what's a national account I went in to two corporates yesterday er and erm who are a massive potential for us, right in where we need to be I actually put a deal forward to Well I didn't yeah well we may have done We agreed didn't we, no we agreed, I thought we agreed that where that head office was in no where erm the multiple concern who looked after that business, where their national account department looked after that corporate we would look after it and where their key account department looked after it you would look after it and is a national account for for erm I remember that at one of the meetings, yeah [Gary:] is it? [speaker001:] Yeah, so erm [Stuart:] The sales rep shouldn't have called on because that's, that's a [Brett:] That's easy to say Gary but where's the memos, where's the lists that tell people these things? [speaker001:] This is the grey area, we didn't call on the company we called on the implants and I hope we haven't done any damage, but what we have done and what the p [Gary:] And these things move from time to time as well of course [Stuart:] Yeah I know but nothing's happened since that time to change what we originally agreed [speaker001:] Yeah but I mean I don't clearly remember an agreement like that meself and does I'm sure that was agreed at one of our meetings [Gary:] Well might do but I think it needs to be put in writing you know like who's is who's what you know [speaker001:] Well we can start off with the top one hundred companies and allocate them like that if you want, if it makes things easier rather depends on where the head office is doesn't it? [Stuart:] Well no the top one hundred companies isn't a guide to anything at all. What you mean top one hundred F T S E companies you mean? half of them don't even travel [speaker001:] No I know but it can be a springboard Well the best guide is the one that's in the Travel Weekly that mag er [Stuart:] Yeah but that'that's but half of them don't travel [speaker001:] Oh you mean the Business Travel World magazine Yes that has [Stuart:] Yeah that's useful No I think I think er it should be a national corporate account, the definition of a national corporate account it one that is multi-locational throughout the country [Brett:] Yes, exactly yeah [Stuart:] That's the only definition and worth over x million pound or whatever total revenue or whatever their threshold is [Brett:] It's not throughout the length and breadth of the country it's only in my patch [speaker001:] I agree, I agree The other grey area which cos in point cos that's only in your area innit [Brett:] Yeah as far as I know [speaker001:] unclear No, no, because passed it over to us that's why I had to go and see the guy if you remember [Brett:] Yeah well Mar was un got, got the impression perhaps wrongly now that it was a national account by virtue of where the allocations were [Stuart:] Well can we make it a clear definition please because national means, national in terms of agents and corporates means multi-locational and all represented [speaker001:] is multi-locational doesn't just have one branch [Stuart:] Yeah but it only has Norwich and it has Dagenham doesn't, that's it isn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah those are the two big ones [Stuart:] Well that falls in region so it's a regional account in my respect [speaker001:] Yeah but it's dealt with by the national account department back in [Stuart:] Bollocks to I don't care less about [speaker001:] This is where the grey areas comes in [Stuart:] Well I mean I don't care how they define their, their descriptions. We have to define ours separately [speaker001:] No we said that's how we were going to define us, erm define it, I distinctly remember that being said it would be defined [Stuart:] Yes but [speaker001:] Things may change now but we've working on that basis [Stuart:] We can't, we can't be driven by the definition that they work [speaker001:] No but that's what we agreed before [Stuart:] Well if we did [speaker001:] unclear No I thought we agreed [Stuart:] I don't remember that I've never seen it on any minutes [speaker001:] I'm gonna pull out the minutes cos we did have a meeting, we had a meeting at which was present and that's how we defined it [Stuart:] Oh well it was not a meeting that I was at then [speaker001:] No well you said you don't want to be involved in the meetings anyway [Brett:] Well I wasn't there either was I? [speaker001:] Well that's true, but what I'm saying now is regar I think national is national it's it's multi-locational and it across boundaries right If it's confined within the southern region therefore it's. If it's even lower than that it's local and it's area I'm not sure No I'm not sure I agree with that because I mean area goes right up to Birmingham from the south and it be made multi-regional, multi-locational accounts within Southern England and London which are big accounts What happens if we get one of the national agencies who's located in the opposite part to where the majority of the erm the business from the multi-location commercial account is? There's no point my people working [LAUGHTER] a certain part of I beg your pardon sorry I'm getting my definitions wrong may be looking after something which the erm corporate locations are solely within the south but it's handled by an corporate account. Now surely that comes under or through No, it doesn't matter what the travel agent is when you're talking to the corporate The basis of our decision before was my people work very closely say take with the national account people in right, and the main objective there is to get as much business from the corporate accounts as they're responsible for like or whoever. If they're split, you can't have people from the field going into dealing with national account managers when my people are also dealing with them. That's the basis That's what's caused the grey area Yeah, that's not, that's where it's changed [Stuart:] Well that is actually a problem from you know [speaker001:] Cos you got [Stuart:] Well the national account what you are saying is the national account if the work's for is then responsible for all those accounts that happen to be from the national account manager. [speaker001:] That's what, that's what I thought we agreed [Mike:] Well no I thought we agreed that if it was in the southern boundaries, the locations it doesn't matter what were [speaker001:] You can have that Frank, you can't have several different sales reps going into seeing different people and my people seeing them as well. You need one central point for each of the multiples [Mike:] Yeah well this is what's not, I mean we don't know who who those accounts are that you're dealing with where that's the situation [speaker001:] Well you c I can get a list of all the corporate accounts that and have and we can go through them one by one [Mike:] Yeah [speaker001:] We can't have people crossing over main problem at the moment is that they want one person to deal, cos at the moment we've got us dealing with national account and we've got dealing with the regional account managers and sales execs dealing with the individual branches and I think things are getting lost as it goes from one to the other [Stuart:] It's a question of whether we adapt to their structure or or we have our own structure [speaker001:] mm [Stuart:] Isn't it, that's the question [Mike:] The other area was er the area of er tour operators and allocations because as you know holidays was not one of your accounts and we wandered in there only to find that they'd got allocations and business was [speaker001:] Yeah, the reason that happened was that there was no-one servicing holidays erm and they came to us for an allocation and and we gave it to them. Had somebody been in there to see they would've spoken to them Well no I mean It's account isn't it? There was no-one covering that area [Stuart:] Well [speaker001:] Yeah, if if there's no-one covering that area then I have to make arrangements for that to be covered which I I will do and that will be. I don't think [Stuart:] Well it seems like we've got the wires crossed in one or two areas [speaker001:] I think the problem's been is the problem's been is that we don't want to let any business go [LAUGHTER] and if it comes to us we take it on board means we'll be short of people which is not a bad thing yeah well quite I'm not trying to cast any blame here but handed over allocations on Innsbruck to at one time yeah and left us to carry the ball cos she sort of withdrew at one time Yes well I understand so on board [Stuart:] Well er just hang on a minute I think [speaker001:] that's what she [Stuart:] You've got a meeting for the second have you? Well can you sort that out amongst yourself and then after you've done that then present it to the February sales meeting as to what you've done so everybody knows [speaker001:] mm [Stuart:] Yeah? [speaker001:] Not least the girls in the office Yeah so it's absolutely clear even if it's a precis I think it'll be [Stuart:] Cos you're right cos we don't want to get people trampling on each other. I think we're actually getting in each other 's way for the right reasons rather than the wrong reasons, like just said and it's not a question of somebody else trampling on others er cos I've heard this sporadically for some time. People walking in but we need to need to clearly define the areas and if it's that the national account department at has this list of corporate clients then maybe it makes sense that the national account manager responsible for deals with those also [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] to avoid repetition you see we have to be a bit careful because what happens if we closed down right and transferred out to the field [Mike:] And then we have to change our structure [Stuart:] Then we have to change again and that's what you're saying we have to be a chameleon [Mike:] Oh yeah, we'd have to adapt to the situation we find ourselves with [Stuart:] Yeah cos they have, they have a tendency to do that sort of thing you see they're changing all the time [Mike:] We don't know what they'll do so [Stuart:] Well I don't see, I don't know why we're, we're trying to [Mike:] No what I'm saying is the logistics, the logistics of servicing with a field of national account departments is going to be a potential nightmare [Brett:] But I don't think that means we have to adjust our sales structure to them it may mean that we have to look at theirs and decide who's gonna deal with what, but th but we don't have to gear all our structure [Stuart:] Yeah well [Mike:] No but the national accounts department is set up to deal with the head offices of of the key multiples and national accounts. You take and their equivalents away from my people we're redundant and you might as well take it all over Britain. [Stuart:] No, no that's not quite true [Mike:] Well it is. I mean for the national account person [Stuart:] Well, I'm not saying [Gary:] Not necessarily, Peterborough should be the core [Mike:] Yeah, well that's my job Peterborough really because that's really just just the review every quarter. The core of the business and the business development is at and that's the main problems we've been having with because not co-operating [Stuart:] Well maybe, maybe it's because the person that's been dealing with is not sufficiently au fait with Peterborough [Mike:] Peterborough's got no control over this is this is the problem [Stuart:] Well it has, but but the level that we're pitching at hasn't... the level at which [Mike:] It comes into yeah [Stuart:] Well if we were into or into or then it might not be a problem [Mike:] Yeah well [Stuart:] That's where it em, that's where it emanates from isn't it? Can't think for one minutes if for instance was interested in a deal with that he, that er that he wouldn't, only just to have flick his fingers and would crap themselves [Mike:] Well they don't really know [Stuart:] Well getting into another issue [Mike:] Yeah I know we are but [Stuart:] Yeah but I mean that's the way it's meant to work. That's the theoretical version of it. [Mike:] Most airlines I'm told by the multiples have one person who look after that camp and they go down from erm regional, regional level to regional sales manager. Now you [Stuart:] Don't do that but then again they're slightly different I suppose [Mike:] somebody almost exclusively for [Stuart:] national account manager who's specifically looks after and then go and see on a regular basis but call on them but invariably the accounts that those account managers deal with at erm will be split all round the country and will be controlled by our local sales executives in those areas [Mike:] Yeah I would've thought it was the job of the national account executive or whoever it may be to go there do the business, find out what's what and apportion that out to wherever it's most appropriate either to the field sales or or to whatever, because [Stuart:] It's, it's a peculiar situation [Mike:] That would avoid a multitude of following people in one after the other [Stuart:] Well what we don't want is [Mike:] What and I used to do [Stuart:] There's people that [Mike:] used to meet there and go in and see them [speaker001:] Yeah, crossing over [Mike:] We used to go see [Stuart:] Well why don't, well why don't, why don't, why don't [Mike:] Well you see that complaint is that and myself are not actively seeing these regional managers, they believe that we should see them [Stuart:] Well if if if if had their way they'd have in all their branches you know, I mean, you know that's [Mike:] Yeah, but I'm looking at how we're gonna this deal through next year because [Stuart:] Well that's, well that's [Mike:] perhaps we shall [Stuart:] Well you know I agree with ya and I think I think [Mike:] Yes we need to, if we're gonna do a deal. [Stuart:] If we're gonna do a deal then we, we, we have some to drive it through but what I'm saying is that I think that if you have this meeting I, which is what February the second? [Mike:] mm [Stuart:] then you argue the toss amongst yourselves really, but you've got, you have to [Brett:] well we are thin on the ground and limited resources so we don't want doubling up, that's what we don't want, doubling up, but I don't, I don't [Mike:] I don't think we should mirror just for the [Gary:] No but we have to look at what, what's a workable solution [Stuart:] Yeah, well okay then we'll do it at that meeting and work it out then right? Yeah? Right then well I think that's the easiest otherwise we gonna waste a lot of time [Mike:] It must be in your tray cos I've only just got that today. [Stuart:] Well do you want me to be at that meeting then? [Mike:] Well let us explore it first and see what the issues are and then if there's any dispute then, then you can call another meeting at the February sales meeting we can discuss it [Stuart:] Well alright we'll do that that way [Mike:] Cos you don't need to get into the argy bargy [Stuart:] Yeah but I'm not erm. I don't want to get into any argy bargy about anything particularly [Mike:] We'll see if we can come to a solution [Stuart:] Well, yes you gotta, you gotta see the other person's point of view, you gotta understand the structure. I mean for instance is a national account at do any business with us, do they? [Mike:] Yeah, but we wouldn't target that account would we? [Stuart:] Well you see,tha that's one element of it, right let me think of another one then er [Mike:] You can't, take your point which we've been trying to tackle at national account level [Stuart:] Well is another one [Mike:] Well we've been targeting as well [Stuart:] Well that, I've already has already done a deal with [Mike:] I know he has but that's one we're working on [Gary:] He's done with has he? [Stuart:] Yeah, Aberdeen, in Aberdeen [Mike:] Yeah it's a national account [Stuart:] Well you see this is where basically the criteria is what is the most, how is it most sensibly dealt with, right, cos you don't want a or somebody like that rushing all over the bleeding country going to Aberdeen one minute, Edinburgh the next [Mike:] No, but she's does work with. I mean the one is a classic one when she knew it was Scottish based that she passed any correspondence on to [Stuart:] Maybe that's, maybe that's, that's the, that's the system [Brett:] I just think it's important that say at they have one reference point [Stuart:] Well yes. They have one reference point and just that, but if it's related to an account then [Mike:] I only go for tendering of accounts... like B T for example [Gary:] Well B T is a national account [Mike:] Well you could argue it is in area because [Stuart:] No, no it's not because B T all over the country isn't it [speaker001:] one agency point [Stuart:] No it isn't [speaker001:] Every single thing's through the one place now for B T. The lot Every, every single B T thing goes to the one location now [Stuart:] Wasn't there a case when it was right? [Brett:] That's not the point the point is that er it doesn't matter which agency it goes through it, their multi-locational site, so that's why it's a national account. It's not just in my area they're all over the place in Scotland as well, so [Gary:] Yeah, we need to talk about this, because I mean when I saw he was upset by the treatment he got from I presume it was before, the way she dealt with him erm and he believed you know, he was big enough to be dealt with by the national accounts department. Yeah, but you know he's an old, I mean you know the guy he's quite an old, old fart basically he likes to be looked after But is he gonna give us any business? [Mike:] Well he reckons we're losing our business now because we didn't give him a deal [Gary:] Yeah, well I know but er he hadn't seen anyone, he reckons for well over a year and when phoned me up I agreed to have lunch with him and then he gave me an earful about all sorts of things including erm in Norwich issuing net fares on Norwich Amsterdam [LAUGHTER]. You know this K L M deal, so obviously we hadn't got under the finger until called me in almost desperation [Stuart:] Well phoned me about and I passed it to you [Gary:] Yeah, but nothing was done so he came through to me [Stuart:] Oh well [Mike:] well he wasn't happy with what he'd received. had basically told him he lived in the Stansted catchment area and we didn't need to do a deal with him, and that's what irritated him Well on the basis of what was told by the guy she went to see at who was the key account manager [Stuart:] yeah? [Mike:] er no some other bod who was dealing with the accounts at in Enfield. He got a letter on file, he produced a load of stats which were a load of bollocks and prove and proved that we weren't losing any business and then he they had a deal with us which was Eurobudget with no restrictions when they were based at Dagenham cos they were using right that, no the deal hasn't lapsed that's what we were trying to do [Gary:] Well according to him it has elapsed [Mike:] We told him it's elapsed because they're not at Dagenham any more and he doesn't like it. So he said oh, when he see me he said [Stuart:] The truth will out here [Mike:] He's told you that you're not, we're not getting a fair share of the business with him, but the figures I see don't don't say that at all [Gary:] Well he reckons he hadn't seen anyone from for months [Mike:] Well that's crap [Gary:] I'm only telling you what he said [Mike:] Well I know but this is, but this is where we're caught with our pants down because we haven't got the thing [Gary:] when I spoke to about it she said that you told her to hand it over to my department cos it was a national account [Mike:] Well if it is then that's right, but it's not [Gary:] so if she had been told that [Mike:] well if it isn't yeah, if we, if and I thought it was national account which means it's a multi-locational site which it is [Gary:] mm [Mike:] then it's a national account, but in terms of the guy not seeing anybody we went to him to sort out what was going on and she must have come away there from with all the sites and said I shouldn't be dealing with this, it's a national account, it's the national account and that's when I said you must pass it over to then [Stuart:] Well can we get this sor stuff sorted then, because this is gonna go on forever, because I I think to be quite honest it is a lack of communication between two parties [Brett:] I don't think it is [Gary:] I think it's in all honesty the corporates have taken decisions [Mike:] and we haven't got to grips with the corporate market yet fully [Gary:] Yeah well I know that's true erm and we've been power fighting and that's the problem [Brett:] I think those of you have genuinely erm defined what's been said in two different ways and perfectly correctly because [Stuart:] I think, I think we need a meeting to get it laid down, we need a meeting to clear the air or not clear the air necessarily but get some definitions some definitions down yeah? [Mike:] mm [Stuart:] cos we can't seem to be, cos otherwise we look like flipping idiots [Gary:] It's not fair on either of you or or your people either [Mike:] Well no [Stuart:] All right [Gary:] Well that's the been the problem issue we've been struggling through on that basis [Mike:] But one thing I would say and I think this is very valid and think pe it won't be long before people start to pick up on it and er we haven't got a national accounts, a proper national accounts team cos we haven't got the people and we all know the reasons why but nevertheless you know they're, they're pinpointing areas of big business with big companies like and and not allowed to go into new business [speaker001:] ah, hello [Gary:] No we have put a proposal to but they turned it down twice [Brett:] Yeah I know [Gary:] cos they said it wasn't good enough [Brett:] There's quite a few, there's quite a few national accounts [Stuart:] Yeah, come out with look I mean right what happens any travel agent right will tell ya right that these are that there are huge corporates with massive opportunities for business in the corporate sector particularly on because they're used to saying that the reps and in the main will buy that because they'll be able to get something out of it. It's not the same for, different set-up and they don't understand us therefore they come out with statements like that [Mike:] No, this isn't this isn't travel agents making these statements this is us when we go and talk to say an implant [Stuart:] Well it's the same thing as a travel agent [Mike:] Well I mean you can see from the stats, the figures and routes they fly that we get ten per cent when we should be getting twenty [Stuart:] Yeah, but you can always establish why though [Brett:] like remember when we first went to see he reckons we were losing business. When we looked at the figures we proved that we wouldn't get any more business because of where people lived and when we tried to push them to Detroit over Amsterdam they wouldn't have it, people would prefer to drive to Gatwick. [Stuart:] If there was ever a classic is about the laziest bastard on this side of Christendom and he and he he wouldn't do anything that supports your business at all [Brett:] We know, we never suggested that said that their business is going down with us and that there was no extra business there for us [Gary:] erm who was national account manager wanted us to relieve for an exploratory [speaker001:] is that tea there? yes [Mike:] I think basically [Gary:] but how I structure my department would depend in all honesty on the type of people we get knows this. If we get first division people I'll do it a different way to him if I had to end up with second division people and the responsibilities they take on board will very much reflect that and the same surely should happen to the field sales force erm their abilities are reflected in in what sort of activities we give them and by looking at the people we have we then put together a team to most accurately attack whatever we want to do. I'm not sure how I'm going to structure the department, it depends on the people I get in all honesty [Brett:] Right, okay well can we just leave this for a minute please because we're not getting [Gary:] I mean it's not a major issue I mean it is an issue it's not a major issue it's just that there have been one or two occasions like where we have cross purposes but considering you know they are a relatively minor tour operator I wouldn't want that to muddy the water because that was just just erm a misunderstanding. [Stuart:] What it does and I think we're also dealing with a with a with a, people like right and is probably arguably worse right who've never really had any sort of responsibility before and they not quite sure where the lines are drawn. And in a worse position than because the North they've never done any deals, never seen anybody, national accounts, done nothing in that area in terms of deals and negotiations and things like that and it was only six months ago that where could actually find out he could do deals. I mean that's the worst scenario than the one you got into [Brett:] Oh, yeah absolutely at least we were able [Stuart:] and what they do is all this typical regimented structures and regimented bloody this and that run like the fucking civil service [Brett:] But we not regimented in this department we're flexible that's why these things are happening cos we turn our hands to whatever we believe is in the interests of the company. [Stuart:] Yes I know that [Mike:] See what I mean [Stuart:] but it cuts across, no there there comes a point where the of this world say oh am I allowed to do this, am I allowed to do that if you've been here for more than three years right and it's particularly prevalent in Scotland, oh are we allowed to do that, oh I didn't know and that's old that is. old to a certain extent you know, she's been around longer than has and been around but influenced by who's been around a long time you see that's where we get it, you see we don't get the initiative coming in that area we get we get the oh Christ, bloody hell let's shove that one out the way that's a national account. You know. [Gary:] That's what happened over, hadn't really dealt with big tour operators in the past and I think she got a bit nervous about it [Brett:] Well yeah [Mike:] erm and ended up dealing with it but that's not to say she shouldn't deal with it erm she just got to be trained how to deal with it She's put allocations on that list cos the other, the other field sales people don't see why they can't get involved with the tour operator who wants an allocation [Gary:] Well we don't normally do allocations [Brett:] I know [Gary:] It's only on Innsbruck that we've done it because that's what the market demands. We don't want pe I mean we don't want sales reps agreeing to allocations I mean at the moment we haven't got anybody to administer them it's being done by groups it's going to be a nightmare in a big way [Stuart:] Well we've actually turned away I think that the best thing is that you er that the three er obviously there's. I think that's there's certain things implied from area and er and er there's misunderstanding coming from your area [Mike:] I don't think it's misunderstanding [Stuart:] It is! Total misunderstanding from area. They're not quite clear at all. I can hear that just in the last ten minutes [Mike:] Yeah, I must admit [Stuart:] I mean, I must admit I was talking to beforehand and not clear not sure on certain things. [speaker001:] She's asked me [Stuart:] Whose responsibility or whose, whose supposed to be that is irrelevant, it just needs to be cleared up. [speaker001:] Okay [Stuart:] All right moving on rapidly [Gary:] Before you do anything, I'm gonna interrupt here, tea coffee? Which would you like? [Stuart:] Er black tea [Brett:] I was gonna say same thing. A lot of these queries, or some of it stems from the fact that we're also conscious of the fact that we can't keep passing things to Gary when he's only got one person [Gary:] wants to go full-time into erm groups and she's trying to do a one hundred and one different things. Can we not say that we say if we don't have agreement by the thirty first of January we can take someone like who we've already identified who will do the job for the money and take at least one person on pending a decision on the salary increase? [Stuart:] I think we've got to [Gary:] Because we need at least one person to do it, it's go it's getting out of control now [Mike:] I think we'll have to take a person internally [speaker001:] Do you have sugar, Gary? Well is the strongest internal candidate Sugar? [Gary:] Yes, please [Stuart:] Well let's [Gary:] Do you see what I mean I don't want this to drag on and on [Stuart:] No, no, well I know that and I know [Gary:] Even if I can get rid of the the tour operators erm or put somebody like onto because we got up and running now and I haven't got anyone to deal with it [Stuart:] Well I think your group selection thing with the internal candidates that's all gonna take time again isn't it? [Gary:] No, that's what I'm saying, we've identified one person who'll join us for the summer. If we don't get approval to increase the salary by the thirty first of January so I can have the two people I want can I appoint this lady and bring her on board cos I know she'll do a reasonable job in a certain area?... [Stuart:] Well I think you've got to, I mean [Gary:] Don't say no please because things aren't getting [Stuart:] No I agree with that, I think you've got to yes we'll agree that and also hopefully by then we'll have clarity the clarity on the salary and then we'll get in there in which case you're laughing, right [Gary:] So we'll say deadline by thirty one January. If we don't get agreement we take on this lady from Oxford [Stuart:] Because internally we still haven't got anybody that shines out have we? Yet [Gary:] That's why I would like to do a group assessment erm but yes long term [Stuart:] Group assessment though is is a luxury isn't it at the moment [Gary:] I think for a day's er work it's worth assessing the three top people identified with the six outside people that I've identified who are you know in the next division down to see how they compare. I think we owe it to people like or at least to give them another crack at the whip to see if they've come on in that interim period cos it's a good six months since we interviewed [Mike:] Well I don't think we owe it to them we just delivered them a nice big salary and they've got more than enough work to do. I think we were in that situation six months ago, I don't think we owe owe those three candidates anything now [Gary:] Well do you think? Would you like to see them in against the outside candidates if we look at this [Stuart:] I think it's not very likely though is it, Christ Almighty we're talking here about getting people on board to help you out the assessment are bit academic [Gary:] right well if we haven't got the decision then by the thirty first of January you're agreed we can offer one job to from? [Stuart:] Yeah to do the leisure things? [Gary:] Yep [Stuart:] Alright [Gary:] And then if we get agreement on a salary increase then we only have to pay it to one person [Stuart:] Well we've only got one person to pay it to [Gary:] Well no, we got two in the sidelines, we got this Indian guy who was not coming for a second interview until we can say we'll pay him [Stuart:] Well you don't know I mean you don't know, you might say right twenty grand and then he might say oh no I've re-considered I want twenty two and then he might say I'm not gonna turn up. He might turn up he might turn up and then say no sorry twenty grand forget it, don't want to work for you anyway. It's all a bit iff in the clouds [Mike:] Can I just make a point this thing about salary because I know we can't people we want at the salary and all the rest of it but then there's, if we're go if that's the s if we're now saying that that's the salary for the job and there's no no way in my conscience rests clear really that we should just pay that to one person [Gary:] It isn't, it's not ideal I mean I've got a problem with [Mike:] Well he's happy [Gary:] and I can't see any way out of it [Mike:] well [Gary:] I want the best people for the job and it if means I gotta pay one or two thousand more [Mike:] But I'm not sure that's right I just, I mean I spent three years [Stuart:] It's not right we know it's not right it's the fact that it's an expedient measure. We need staffing, people in that area and she's an internal candidate that's come through, she's done a good job right and and now she's you know it's not right but at the moment it gets us over a q over a quick fix [Mike:] You can always red circle that salary at a later date and hold her increases down against other people. There are all sorts of options [Stuart:] But as you say, it may never happen anyway. Anyone else think we should bother about that yet? [Gary:] No but it's all tied up with this role of national accounts [speaker001:] It's dragging on too long [Gary:] Yes a tricky issue but I think we've got to get to grips with it [Stuart:] Well we can get to grips with it at this meeting when you talk amongst yourselves er as to how you divide up the base accounts yeah? [Gary:] But we can't get that meeting any earlier for you [Stuart:] No well as well as an issue [Mike:] But there's, there's people people holding a shotgun to our heads saying yeah I'll come and do this job and I want x. We've been all through that we've got the salaries re-graded and we don't pay a bad wage now [Gary:] Well not at national account level I've seen lots of people now and I'm sorry [Brett:] We've let five people go who would have joined for another two grand [Gary:] so we mis-judged the grading of my people when we reset the salaries. The evidence is there in abundance [Stuart:] We got it there or thereabouts for sales executives right? the area development exec job but we didn't get it right we were two grand adrift quite clearly demonstrable evidence that we were two grand adrift on that pay and I've asked now to agree to upping the pay level and if he does we might get some decent people and then we worry about the ramifications of that afterwards, yeah? But that's always the way it is in [Mike:] Yeah [Stuart:] You go for a quick short-term fix, right? [Brett:] Yeah, there are, there is another quick, another quick short-term fix is promote people from within [Mike:] Good luck to them, I'm not convinced in my own mind and I mean we've interviewed these people that there are people internally ready yet, that's why I said perhaps we should [Stuart:] Well what're you saying then, what are you saying that, are you saying that is now ready? ready? [Mike:] In an ideal world of course they're not but but I'm saying if if you're looking for a quick fix then that's a quick fix. You say there's three candidates there who get, one who is actually earning the money that we pay and two that aren't, the quick fix is to say right we given you an opportunity to do this national accounts job at the same salary for six months, see if you can do it, and if you do it we confirm the salary. Now that's a quick fix and hasn't cost anything, hasn't put anybody's nose out of joint and [Gary:] It has cost you [Mike:] No it hasn't [Gary:] You've lost all your back-up a very high proportion of it on your own team [Mike:] Have I? [Gary:] Sorry I thought you were talking about two [Mike:] He says you've got one that would join at the money and can do the job My top objective is to get on board because I believe she is the best person for the job. I've worked with her now for nearly two years and I think she'd do an excellent job. Now she may accept if the salary is not confirmed, a lower salary. I mean we've got to offer it to her and see what her ultimate decision is. She could be bluffing we don't that do we for certain erm yes we have got one who will accept the salary yes we could take one from outside the field that's why I wanted this deadline so if we don't get the increase in salary by this date we can then start planning and take on board the second tier level [Brett:] Because there's no doubt I'll find somebody to do a field sales role [Stuart:] Oh that's two a penny [Brett:] Well they're easier, I'll find somebody easier [Stuart:] Well it's easier to recruit at the lower level than it is the upper [Brett:] Yeah, so I mean [Gary:] But don't forget this this is a very important time with the all the increase coming in they've got a helluva lot to take on, not just learning the company but they got the new routes and everything and it's going to leave I would've thought very short in an exceptionally busy period [Mike:] No more short than [Brett:] I'd rather had the people I can survive with one person, one person down from the three that you've got [Stuart:] just moved from sales hasn't she [Brett:] I, I've I've put forward [Stuart:] I thought didn't want to do it anyway [Brett:] Due to location where she lives... [Mike:] Do you think she wants to do it? [Brett:] Yeah not 'alf [Gary:] Yes [Brett:] Yes, she very very erm keen to give it a go [Mike:] You see we've gone from paying these people twelve thousand to fourteen thousand to eighteen thousand [Gary:] in six months do you [Brett:] See what I mean, you don't pay her that for six months, you say to her right this this is the score, we will review this first July nineteen ninety-four [speaker001:] Would you pay her an interim amount? [Brett:] No we can't, she's on trial. If she hack the job she gets it if she can't she goes back to what she was doing [Gary:] Okay we'll give it until the end of January then. If we find we can't get an increase in salary [Brett:] In fact you're in a stronger position now because then you can say she's not s she's not suitable and pass her back Well you're in a stronger position than if you take somebody on and find out six months later that they can't do it, where you gonna put them? [Mike:] Okay we wait until the end of the month and see if comes up with the salary and work along that basis [Gary:] Why is, do we know why he's taking so long? [Stuart:] Who? He hasn't. He's not taken that long. I only asked him the other day [Gary:] Oh beg your pardon sorry I didn't realise [Stuart:] gone you see [Gary:] yeah [Stuart:] I mean if this had all sort of come before left we'd have got it through no problem [Gary:] Right [Stuart:] Unfortunately the bloke decided to leave too early... [Brett:] Erm well one way or the other it's got the result [Mike:] I'm quite happy to do that take and and put on a six month's trial if we don't salaries through [Stuart:] Well something's gonna be done [Gary:] Which is this? [Stuart:] This is an outside candidate [Gary:] Oh beg your pardon I'm sorry I thought you said internal right [Stuart:] You see, I must admit you see not I don't gonna do as good a job as [Brett:] don't think she's gonna do as good a job and that would definitely make it. If we got internal candidates [Stuart:] well water's gone under the bridge since then [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] Water's gone under the bridge since then be fair did not perform well there's no question about it and we have worked with her in the field erm she wasn't she wasn't brilliant [Brett:] No she [Stuart:] She got a, I think she got a bit of a shock you know she actually probably thought she was better than she was and a lot of people had been giving her a lot of pats on the back and I tell you where half of that emanated from was down the corridor. and other various tosspots who were sort of giving her pats on the back and they were making all sorts of slurping noises about her, weren't they? erm salivating [Brett:] Somebody else did, somebody else said something [Stuart:] Yeah, wasn't it [Brett:] Yeah that's right [Stuart:] saying oh what a great person you've got. Totally uninformed judgements yet again clouding the issue. She probably had a real great impression of herself right she did and then when she turns round and we said well I'm sorry and said well sorry no got a bloody big shock, gave her a shock to the system and to be quite honest what I've seen of her since then has been a darn sight more er spruced up and a bit more on the bloody ball than she was before [Brett:] Yep [Stuart:] Witnessed at the Tottenham Hotspur game and er [Mike:] Tottenham Hotspur game what else played a role in that is the two people going [Stuart:] Yes [Mike:] which is a nasty shock [Stuart:] shock for everybody [Mike:] and the [Stuart:] and the course she was dynamite on the course, she was cruising on the course [Mike:] yeah but she also, that we a tough course [Stuart:] and she was very ill at the time was it? [Brett:] so I mean she's, she's she's and I said to her when when all the things were going wrong with I had to have a lot of chats with her and said well you you've got to prove that you can rebound from this [Stuart:] Yeah [Brett:] you've just taken a knock you didn't get the job, it's not to say a job won't come up again now what you gonna do give up or keep trying? And she's kept trying and that's what makes me think she's got [Stuart:] I got it here [Brett:] But she's not, I'm not saying she's hasn't got a lot to learn [Stuart:] Yeah, but she's only got as much to learn as the girl that girl [speaker001:] seventh of Feb seventh of Feb [Brett:] You can make a judgement after that, if you're not impressed after the [Stuart:] Have you worked with her in the field? with the greatest respect you can't actually cos you haven't worked with that many of them have you?... But horses for courses you see there are not an option cos he won't move from Scotland and there's not reason why he should do and so you can forget anybody north of forget anybody in area [Brett:] if you don't think that the girl that you've interviewed is gonna do as good a job as [Gary:] Well it depends in which area [Mike:] This girl's quite switched on on the tour operator side [Stuart:] Well she's worked she works for a tour operator, she worked for a [Mike:] she's worked in a number of different areas [Stuart:] she hasn't gone out and sold it though has she? for one or two fairly decent names er Yeah well her her travel experience is fairly late [Mike:] Yeah but I mean that's not necessarily an issue I mean what did she do for B M W cars? [Brett:] Sold cars, it's nothing like what we're doing [Stuart:] She's financing on cars [Mike:] Well it's nothing like it is it? [Gary:] Well you see in an ideal situation of the six people I've got on the second list there's better quality people there but they've got absolutely zero experience but we're not the sort of company who can take these people on and train them really [Stuart:] I'd agree with there [Mike:] So you know we're stuck between a rock and a hard place [Brett:] Yeah but at the end of the day is she is she better or worse than? [Stuart:] Yeah [Mike:] I would've put them on the same level in all honesty [speaker001:] where do you put them then? [Stuart:] I would go for every time better the devil you know for that reason alone really [Brett:] In many ways I wish we'd taken on that girl now who we saw right at the very beginning with [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] Fucking hell what? Oh I don't think she was right either sorry old son [Gary:] Yeah you see but when I was seeing them one after the other tens and twenties you don't see the dross you see [Stuart:] Well I know I don't see [LAUGHTER]. Nobody's criticising you nobody's making I'm not making a criticism of her cos at the end of the day right if we now talking the scenario that we're painting now let's take this girl on, not girl girl on right, you can have cos she's far more impressive. You would have had, if you played the scenario back, take yourself back in time when we interviewed this bird you would have had well I would have had her [Mike:] Well I gotta say I I I [Stuart:] Not in the biblical sense but you know what I mean [Gary:] I was quick to snap her up before you changed your mind she wasn't right for national accounts at that time she'd been good in the groups role [Brett:] yeah but you haven't got the right people now have you? [Stuart:] He hasn't got anybody now [Mike:] No what I'm saying is we'd have the right people if we pay more money, that's the core of the problem [Brett:] That's moving the flipping goalposts isn't it? [Stuart:] I think the thing you have to say that as far as I'm concerned, from what I've see of her so far and I haven't worked with her in the field yet but far brighter spark in your department than that one we interviewed the other day [Gary:] All I'm saying is I've got to have people, I've got confidence in me because at the end of the day I'm responsible [Stuart:] Well this right well I know that I know that. All I'm try we're only speaking from the best interests here, speaking from the bloody heart rather than the head probably here but we we do want th we do want the best but it's the old old story, it's botching it up isn't it, it's fudging it, it's trying to fit a square pet into a role cos we pay crap money y'know [Mike:] Yeah, if at the end of the day it's a quick fix then [Stuart:] Yeah, quick f if a the end of the day it's a quick fix we may as well take somebody we've got [Mike:] Yeah, exactly cos at least they know the culture [Stuart:] culture, they know what an agent looks like and they know what a tour operator looks like and they know and they know one or two other people around and so on and so forth [speaker001:] They also know what's expected of them [Gary:] Okay, we'll set the deadline at thirty one January [speaker001:] Right okay Do you want to dictate it to me? [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] it was agreed that thirty one January would be set as a deadline for recruiting national account execs, pending a salary review [Stuart:] Are these national account or key account [speaker001:] Key account Key account [Gary:] Thank you. Right I'll just put national account execs, key account execs, right okay [Stuart:] Alright well I think well I think actually well I know we've droned on about it for half an hour but I think it's worth a discussion to be quite honest, don't you? I know it is, it's not exactly doing a lot for me either but er cos it gets raised every bloody management meeting but I think having discussed the matter we've actually opened ourselves out a few more options than we probably thought we had [speaker001:] Yep [Stuart:] Right? And I think that's [Gary:] It'd be nice to have and say in together [Stuart:] Well let's see you see at the end of the day will probably suit you better er cos she's quite mature isn't she for her age? [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] That's just because she's married to an older man basically er she's I know it's a sweeping generalisation but it is it is a fact that and and she's more your type [Gary:] What does that mean? [Stuart:] Well, she's quiet and quite steady [Gary:] Well we have to be we have to be because erm [Stuart:] I know you do it's not don't get touchy old pal, it's not a criticism. You do in account management is a different discipline than field sales. Account management is a a lot about files and backup and administration and sorting this out and sorting that out. Yeah it is, it's going out and doing the business as well but it's gotta have a lot more intellectual input er in you know in terms of having a having a greater insight into how a company works, how an airline operates, how the marketing department operates and so forth. Why do you think I why do you think I gave you the fucking job eh? National accounts department. You know. would've struggled in that job. He'd be the first to admit it. [Brett:] I'm struggling in this one [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Stuart:] You know it is you do need that quality people who have a bit of insight but got a lot of those [Gary:] Yeah [Stuart:] She's got a lot of those what what's the word? [speaker001:] Skills [Stuart:] Not necessarily skills, she's got a lot of those erm [speaker001:] Disciplines? [Stuart:] Erm [Gary:] Do you think they've come on then since we interviewed here? Cos it's sad in my opinion that going back to where we were several months ago because we set out out to attracting higher quality people paying them more money and we've come back again to basically seeing the people who we saw in the first instance [Mike:] Yeah, but time's have changed. Things have changed since then. You've only gotta look in the back of the T T G because there's now four pages of jobs compared to half a page that's why all these people can now ask for more money. Eighteen months ago they wouldn't have been asking for more money [Stuart:] They wouldn't have dared. Well you wouldn't have got and er when you did [Mike:] No, exactly, no [Stuart:] You wouldn't get them now. You wouldn't get them today [speaker001:] Wouldn't get them today no [Stuart:] Tell you to stuff you know, get stuffed I think I think we know where we're coming from there and I mean that's worthwhile. Point six, he says quickly, what does that mean, point six? [Mike:] Point six means that wh just to remind you that when we had the sales conference we did promise these [Stuart:] Yes, I know, I remember that, that's what I thought it may be. I thought about it last night and I was laying awake all last night thinking about it [speaker001:] So was I [Stuart:] I think we [LAUGHTER] I think the only way we can actually really do this is is to pick one from area, one from your area, one from area and one from Europe and just have er almost arbitrary er decision but justify it. Fucking hell [Mike:] We have to come to an arbitrary decision and then justify it [Stuart:] Yes, so it looks kosher [speaker001:] And I think what we should have is a fifth person which is an outstanding sales award or something like that which covers all regions cos in Europe you woul you wouldn't vote for any of them would you? [Stuart:] I don't think there's any question about that [speaker001:] We'll make a case that he can't. We'll kick him in the groin if he questions it [Stuart:] Your area's got have one, got have one erm and we have er one I think deserves something er I think erm one other person may be deserves something, who that is, God knows who. But I mean is gonna struggle cos he ain't had many people for very long, has he? The only person he's had through the tr the turbulence and turmoil of the last year is and you wouldn't give her a [speaker001:] You wouldn't give her anything, should have it I don't see what's wrong with frankly, she's been through it all and she's hung on in there [Stuart:] Which is a very er don't pre-judge it has gotta decide, you've gotta decide your area, that's one north, one south. Europe? well we could beat about the bush but there's not a single rep on the road that ever gets out the office so gotta win it cos I actually saw I actually we I actually saw her go out and see a customer so she must she must be er [Brett:] [LAUGHTER] she saw two with you? Well she saw six with me right, that's eight times more than any of the rest of them have seen so I mean that's er [Mike:] That's not fair does a good job [speaker001:] Yeah [Mike:] so er is a waste of space so and he works he works for so er that's stuff it [Stuart:] You pick who you want but you gotta justify it and er and then so so okay, for arguments sake you pick say, for arguments sake picks. is picked in er Europe er that's three. Er outstanding achievement award er dreamt up title say er and then runner up to that or something like that or something like that, yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah? [Mike:] I think that would be a good mix actually [Stuart:] And then you got five, yeah?... [speaker001:] Yep [Stuart:] Well we promised them a week in Bali, didn't we? How the fuck we'll get round that I don't know [Mike:] What, the five of them together, unaccompanied? [Brett:] No, the five plus partners we said, didn't we? [Gary:] Plus partners yeah [Stuart:] And there could be one outstanding person of the year telephone sales which God knows I wouldn't wanna pick that. Dear oh dear. Who'd wanna pick that? [speaker001:] I think they oughta drop res out of it. It's too complicated isn't it? Can you image one sales agent getting a flipping prize like that? mental, there'd be a riot. [Stuart:] So that was that point, was it? [Brett:] Yep [Stuart:] So let's say we award five, five categories, shall I put that down? Five categories of award... for nineteen ninety-three performance er awarded at sales conferences, yeah [Mike:] I actually think that, I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res. I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because [Stuart:] Yeah well I'll speak to about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it. Yeah? [Mike:] know it's difficult [Stuart:] No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong [Mike:] I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res. I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because [Stuart:] Yeah well I'll speak to about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it. Yeah? [Mike:] know it's difficult [Stuart:] No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong. [Mike:] Right, having put them under the banner, clear banner of sales you know [Stuart:] Yeah [Mike:] To be excluded and then you know when all the glory's around there's no-one there again. I'm sure that's that's gonna work against what you've been trying to do since you got here. You know, maybe we pick someone from groups who've been doing a lot of good work lately, perhaps or something or you know some something like that, just er so they're not left out the frame You're gonna want to support someone in groups aren't you? [Stuart:] Sorry? [Mike:] You're gonna want to support someone in groups with the changes coming on board, know what I mean? [Stuart:] Alright, alright let me speak separately to about that. What about er then? [Brett:] well the have agreed the contract. Er I did bring it with me to give to but obviously I'll have to send it now. I've got the phone number er it's just a case now of er getting on and getting it advertised and marketing it but it's all been signed [Stuart:] Is the ledger line? [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] Are we marketing it then? [Brett:] Through all the literature the produce [Stuart:] not doing a brochure then huh? [Brett:] Oh got to produce a few sheets of stuff and we've gotta get the addresses of the bases and get it distributed and it's a task I'm gonna pass on to [Stuart:] But the don't do their own brochure th? [Brett:] Yeah, they do services, booking services, yeah. We we he's giving us free advertising in there for issue anyway [Stuart:] W where do they ring? What number do they ring? [Brett:] Erm [Stuart:] I don't want the number, where is it? [Brett:] Norwich [Stuart:] Oh, it's in Norwich, is it? [Brett:] Yeah, they wanted to put it in Norwich... [Stuart:] Well fair enough [Brett:] I just hope she's got it right cos I've explained it all to her and sh [Stuart:] Well to be quite honest I think the reason she wanted it in Norwich was cos Glasgow're over-loaded as it was I think and they had to learn new skills and staff support and therefore it might not be a good idea to have them as well [Brett:] Right so that's fine so I've got the number, I've got things signed, they've got the rates, can handle it you know, she's all ready to go and get the advertising in and that should start [Stuart:] And when does that start then? [Brett:] Well it's it's it's started really [Stuart:] What do you mean, it's started? [Brett:] Well at first of February [Stuart:] Is it? [Brett:] Yeah, paper work's all been signed now [Stuart:] And what's it called, Leisure Line or [Brett:] Yeah, Leisure Line [Stuart:] Alright okay [Brett:] Cash er cheque or credit card... and then I said to you that's really some it's really a special market that, Leisure Line. it's a special market [Gary:] Well no not once it's set up, it runs itself, doesn't it? [Brett:] Well someone's gotta liaise with the, someone's got to make sure that re erm res are up-dated with rates [Gary:] Yeah, but rates just get so whenever we up-date those they just get the new rates [Brett:] Yeah, but I mean someone's got to open it [Stuart:] They're not getting I T A flights, they're getting for full fare, aren't they? [Brett:] No no mega passengers [Stuart:] Cor this looks a good deal [Brett:] It is a good deal, that's why [Stuart:] Fucking hell is not as generous as that [Brett:] I know it's not [Stuart:] full fare [Brett:] is only flights, ours isn't [Stuart:] What d'you mean it's flights? [Brett:] it's any flight, thirty percent off, our is off-peak flights class plus a ten pound booking fee [Stuart:] So I can't remember everything you know [Brett:] Ten quid booking fee I got out of them as well so it's better than [Stuart:] Ten pound booking fee? [Gary:] Yeah, per booking, not per passenger, per booking [Stuart:] So they're gonna pay ten quid for booking? [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] Well aright I'm k I've just had long had long memories of the. You've done well, I think you, so what has the said then, is that a national account or is it? [speaker001:] Well I suppose ultimately it is if they use the yeah. They come in as a net fare operator [Brett:] Someone's gotta organise all the literature and the [Stuart:] Oh well maybe you discuss that at your meeting on the second of February yeah cos er where that lies with I'm not bothered who it lies with to be quite honest... Er, so what you're saying basically on point seven then is it's all tickety boo is it? [speaker001:] Yeah Yeah Open for business [Stuart:] Open for business. Cor I've heard that phrase before. [speaker001:] It's only taken two years to [Stuart:] Staff travel policy part eight erm well. made his comments about that. Does anybody really want to have a twopennorth on the erm staff travel comment cos [LAUGHTER] cos, had her twopennorth, put this together brilliantly before he left [Brett:] Where is it then, where's the [Stuart:] These documents, I mean it deals with ev everything apart from the main things about [Gary:] One of the big changes that they propose is that should be put on an exact par with within. Not th not talking about travel on other carriers but within [Stuart:] The service charges well Standardising service charges for tickets er things like firm concessions God Almighty erm who is going to decide whether denim suits look quite smart [speaker001:] I put that [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] suggested that they be allowed as they can be quite smart [whispering] something from the seventies [] [Stuart:] Dress. We should seriously look at modifying this rigid code of dress. Some sports jackets and denim suits are quite smart and these would be quite acceptable to the group of companies. What is not acceptable are jeans with holes in the knees etcetera. Oh when we travel with other airlines you must abide by the specific code of dress. [Mike:] You're gonna really cloud the issue if you if you s if you say denim's allowed. [Gary:] Go on, tell him what I said directors [Stuart:] Yeah... directors policy would be dealt with separately. This was in paper. Entitlement for directors to be reviewed separately, right, it says here. As none of the directors are shareholders in the group right, surely they are employees? [speaker001:] Yes they are Quite right [Stuart:] Anyway, it's a bit of a can of worms that to be quite honest [speaker001:] I'll collect my P forty-five later on [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER]. You should be so lucky. [Brett:] Have you seen a pencil sharpener in here? [Gary:] He's obsessed by pencil sharpeners this guy [Stuart:] You should get a proper posh pencil like I have [Brett:] Yeah, these ones keep breaking [Stuart:] Well you should get one like this Cos this one just detached out like that you see, the pencil sharpener's on the end [speaker001:] Oh that's clever [Stuart:] Just sharpen it up, put it back in and retract it and you've got a sharp pencil. The business Well I got given these when I was a rep at when I started, ten years ago and I've still got half a dozen of these you know. That's that's the difference between us and [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's not the only difference [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] pencil fill out your order forms [Stuart:] Ah yeah [speaker001:] Cos there's computer-generated and picked up graphite from pencil [Mike:] Yeah cos I notice you do everything in pencil in your diary, don't you? [Stuart:] That's right and er They did actually, I've lost the clip. It should actually have a clip so that you stick it in your inside pocket [speaker001:] Has one got a rubber in it as well? [Stuart:] It's a clutch pencil, the business. This is this is this is yonks ago. We're talking about, oh fifteen years ago maybe [LAUGHTER]. Fifteen years ago that's the sort of technology that we were. We even got round g we even got round to giving them mobile phones. [speaker001:] We haven't got a fax in the sales office [Gary:] yours truly did a bit of negotiation on that this week but more of that later maybe when we have er we haven't got any A O B's so while we're on that subject [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] I did just ask, out of the blue [speaker001:] faxed across to Stansted cos she's waiting for it Oh yeah... [Mike:] I'll get one of the girls downstairs to do it, can I? She's gotta fax it over to Southampton cos I've got the master [speaker001:] Southampton? [Mike:] It's twenty to four [Stuart:] Alright, well I tell you what, we'll have a break then for five minutes because er I forgot I need to phone the office [Mike:] I need to go home [Stuart:] Sorry? [Mike:] I need to go home [Stuart:] Go home then you're bloody welcome. Told to go home [Gary:] What have we got left? Sales services,? [speaker001:] Half an hour... [Stuart:] Right... [speaker001:] this phone?... d'you reckon? ... [Gary:] Hm, hello there, could I speak to please in the sales office?... [speaker001:] the puffy lunch [Mike:] Where's that bloody pencil sharpener thing gone? I asked for it on Wednesday, she's gone me one, she put in this bag and [speaker001:] ... [Gary:] Oh, well we'll see if I get chance later on I'll phone, alright?... oh that can wait. I'm gonna come in first thing Monday thought cos I've gotta pick some things up right. But it's a ten past ten flight, I'll be left by half past nine so I'll be there for half an hour [speaker001:] ... [Gary:] Oh yeah, sales merchandising company yeah?... Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh does he really? Well forget him then. That's a sales representation company. We don't want any sales representation in Belfast. We've got somebody that'll go over there once a m once a year is enough for the business. Yeah yeah. D'you want do you? Alright, that's it then apart from that right okay, alright, I'll put you on to then. I'll see you later. I'll see you Monday morning then, have a good weekend. Alright dear. Bye [Brett:] Hello alright? [speaker001:] Pencil sharpener [Mike:] I've been search for it and here it is look at that, two in there, that's the new one [Stuart:] Oh, they've half-inched it have they? Oh dear dear, can't have that eh? Valuable commodities pencil sharpeners [Gary:] Talking about valuable commodities, when are we gonna get on to the subject of [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] oh dear Excuse me excuse me boys we have er we have a rare opportunity here to have er a bring the sales meeting to an end where we will resume in the sub-committee, the third party in the sales office users sub-committee [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] You realise you dragged me away from one of my important I A T A meetings today? [Stuart:] He's never missed one since he hasn't missed one since the second world war [Brett:] Was it? Oh well done, all you gotta do is find the agenda now. Okay then we'll see you some time over there will I?... Right okay great yeah yeah right okay lovely. So you s you just stay in the morning eh? Right that's it fine. Fair enough, thanks a lot, see you later, bye. [Stuart:] Right, well back to this please. Final final sales update [Brett:] Very quick, erm for the new route to already got all his plates for Munich, erm we're under negotiations with [speaker001:] to go in there? [Brett:] Well we're trying for first of March. I don't know if accounts' ll be ready because they've got to set up new bank accounts in Norway and Denmark and accounts with the credit card companies in both of the countries separately. Erm, as far as we're concerned we can get it under way. I'm seeing on Tuesday to see how he wants to g us to go about it in Norway. I think because we're going to have lack of erm secretarial setup erm in either country [Gary:] Denmark is a priority [Brett:] we'll almost certainly erm use the contractor over there, the recognised contractor, both for supplying and servicing all our planes. It's erm a modest cost. I'll do a complete costing on it but I think er the only thing is of course there are so few agents total. We're talking just under two hundred in Denmark and just under three hundred in Norway it may be cost-effective for us to do it ourselves with initial distribution from Stansted and maybe a local person doing any new distributions but I think in all honesty it will be as cheap for us [Mike:] You see because does that [Brett:] Erm I think accounts are gonna be pushed f pushed for the first of March. queried whether we really needed to be in it and I told him that sales wanted it and the reasons why we wanted to be in erm even the fact that it was going to k erm give us more accounting work erm whatsisname what bank is it? [speaker001:] Yeah [Brett:] There are four banks in all and that means extra accounts and what are you going to do with all that money? I said remind you that all money at the moment goes either to first which isn't quite so bad cos they're family but a vast amount goes into and, both of whom have therefore access to our commercial sensitive, for want of a better term, information and we want to control that. We want to put it back in to. We also want the money quicker which erm I would have thought would more than outweigh any of the so-called extra expense that you've got and er I said we regard it as an essential sales tool to be get m better recognition in the country so er he is progressing with the applications. As regards the purely administrative side, I can see no problem at all, can see no problem. Erm, it's extremely highly automated both in respect of the agents and the reporting and everything which er says will actually be very good for them. Erm but what we will have to do is set up our local procedures as regards agents queries and things like that in both countries, both with and also whatever you decide in Denmark of how we run the procedure but that can be something later but what we'll need to do is no doubt before we actually do the distribution to the agents and the erm the information out to them th why we're going into on our own as opposed to being served by the other carriers. So erm that's really it. I'm not intending to do anything with any carriers as regards new stuff through the [Stuart:] it's me. Alright dear? [Brett:] schedule, just in case we suddenly find we haven't got slots and [Stuart:] yes, I got the message [Brett:] signed up and until they give us a firm this is it but there will be one or two quite good new opportunities I think. One or two of the long-haulers in Munich who are erm [speaker001:] Copenhagen as well [Brett:] Copenhagen yes sorry there's existing ones but there's there's erm I think Malaysian and is it Denmark, somebody like that [Mike:] You got my note on [speaker001:] Yes thank you [Mike:] Cos that's quite easy to set up [speaker001:] No erm do they want it on er full and excursions? Two separate rates and do they want it net or gross? [Mike:] You need to contact that guy [speaker001:] Okay so I'll t I'll talk to him direct [Mike:] Okay [speaker001:] Erm but Stansted Paris and Stansted Frankfurt centre business trips and Really? Of course they've got the so they can go round the circuit Yeah Using us as the middle bit, it doesn't matter which airport they use? [Stuart:] Cos we need to cos we need to sort of all hands to the pump next week cos we've got a big change-over... Yeah but I know ink... well no cos the leaflet he's got has only just been approved and it's going out next week... yeah... well I mean you're to ha you're to handle their enquiries er deal with their enquiries and then tell them to phone... yeah... yeah yeah but you see it's the mailing that's gone out and and then he's got to do some advertising first two weeks in Feb. Mailing's gone out. It's not really made it clear that it's for bookings and reservations as well. It's not made it clear. It says this is the only number you want but as read it and said well it doesn't really make it clear it's for reservations and bookings and it doesn't really so we'll just have to make sure that it damn well happens on the advert. The other thing is I need er we need to monitor the source of er informations reg information regarding the cordless phone promotion so I've devised a form which I'll get faxed... yeah in other words, where did they find out about the promotion. Right? Oh other people. So when they phone up your girls and they say oh I I've seen this promotion about a cordless phone I want the girls to ask where where did you hear about it? Well I've desi I've got a special form for it... Mhm yeah right okay and we well this is this is a different type of form and it needs it we need it more specific. We need to know whether it was from the Mail on Sunday or the Sunday Times, from the television, all those sort of things and it's just a simple form, they tick a tick a box. Right so I'll I'll post that up to somebody... right. Well I'll I'll fax it first thing in the morning on Monday right or somebody will so you can get it y'know we just need to monitor it for a week and that's it. No longer so just to get a feel f... [speaker001:] she lacks what I would call sales technique [Stuart:] Yeah but it was well it in until two days before Christmas [speaker001:] that's one thing she has done more of in this last six months structure. If I showed her this you know what you've done there [Stuart:] yeah well I mean I wouldn't [speaker001:] and a number have had two or three on time saver with the incentive [Mike:] I can't see the reason [speaker001:] No, but she works from home, she's got [Mike:] got an advantage she got a fax at home [Stuart:] yeah well that's probably not a bad thing. No well I don't want anybody going round saying that the phones have been inundated in Norwich because we because we haven't circularised the number properly cos that's our fault not anybody else's [Mike:] come in every day does she, not if she's got calls to make from home [speaker001:] I don't mean today I mean if she's going in to London or something you know she's got a base in London to do something in the morning before she goes on a call as opposed to some of them who haven't got a proper office space [Stuart:] Well it will be for a for a month at least until people find out the number [speaker001:] running a social club [Stuart:] Well I mean the sort of like in Reading will probably only call once every blue moon... Yeah but you've got a situation where there's and and sort of and th she's not gonna tell is she?th what's going on... [speaker001:] all that off her own back y'know, only a little thing but she's doing that as well [Stuart:] Yeah [speaker001:] I don't know you'll have to... Yeah [Stuart:] Yeah well b well what I'm trying to say and I can't emphasise it too strongly is that I don't want anybody going round like writing another stupid letter to somebody saying that erm you know the reason we're inundated that it hasn't been advertised properly cos I tell you what it'll come back right in our faces cos it's our bloody fault... Well that's right well we know that I mean I told them all I told them all quite clearly when I was up in Glasgow that they'd be quiet for at least a month because p it'll take time to filter through. You know, the number and I mean hasn't been able to get round to buying space in the T T G and Travel Weekly until the first two weeks in February cos we were so late in informing him... I must had this conversation has taken away the brochure so there's not a copy here but we'll try and get hold of some as soon as possible but I mean they're mainly for Glasgow but had been been up there from R and D y'know and she said that the people up there didn't seem to know the slightest thing about interline how to deal with interline tickets and agency tickets and all that sort of business. Well I think that well... [LAUGHTER] what interline? oh good thinking. Well good th yeah right yeah. Well she c well when she came down there I mean she wasn't trying to score points or anything. I just think that she was genuinely worried that they didn't seem to know a lot about it. I said well I thought well has been up there been up there er I thought had been up there a had been up there? Yeah [speaker001:] ... Now that's that's not account management in the same way that isn't it? [Stuart:] well between the two between the two no the only between the two in Glasgow is that you've got to cover it all anyway Whatever. I mean if Glasgow breaks down for I mean if the pros get called out for two weeks it's not gonna make a big deal of difference at Norwich. But you know what's gonna happen. Some arsehole right is going to pick up and say oh well I phoned up this and y'know and then phoned the bloody managing director... [speaker001:] based on a two for one that's hundred and ten quid [Stuart:] yeah well exactly that's wh yeah that's what I said alright... [speaker001:] that's what we that's what we sold [Stuart:] right [LAUGHTER] no... [speaker001:] anything like that again just [Stuart:] yeah well you know it's okay... well you know I well you know yeah it's just that it worried me about this meeting here and three people out of the five people in the room didn't realise that it was a reservations and booking service. They thought it was an enquiry line that was [LAUGHTER] yeah well it just shows you though doesn't it? It says it's there is a moral in the story as they say. Well you can never you never assume anything and thought it was a reservations line oh was sorry it wasn't a reservations line and that it was just an enquiry line. Well I know I know [LAUGHTER] is the only one that realised I would've been more shocked if had [LAUGHTER] yeah [LAUGHTER] I would have been out on the pavement here whistling with a banjo whistling Dixie there you are [LAUGHTER] that one [LAUGHTER] no not yet no. No it's er the initial the initial report that's gone back has said that you're gonna have a bad knee very shortly [LAUGHTER] but apart from that you'll be inflicted with some physical injury. Yeah well par for the course par for the course. Well I hope you're alright anyway. Put yo put your foot up y it's about time for Home and Away now so you've gotta get that on [LAUGHTER] No I'm not I'm not starting to get worried dearest. Alright. No I'm only phoning you because you phoned I'm only phoning because you ph yeah yeah no no we've been here all the time and the phone didn't ring once... well... [speaker001:] some houses some houses for sale in your village aren't there? [Stuart:] Yeah there's one little minor adjustment that you y you might be aware you might need to be aware of. Due to protestations that er is g for the meantime is go in the interim is going to man Glasgow er on Saturday afternoons. Well he's just gonna make them stay longer isn't he? Well that's fine, don't worry we'll get round it. Just just for a couple of weekends to see how many actual calls we do get. Ah just a couple of people that's all two people and er they'll just have to get round it somehow but we don't... yeah... well you speak to him right yeah well they can have they can have what they want but I mean it might be just a short term thing. It depends it depends on how many calls we get but says that the agencies are all open on Saturday afternoons, you shouldn't get lots of leisure leisure bookings and... [LAUGHTER] yeah yeah [speaker001:] I heard that [Stuart:] No he no [LAUGHTER] no way she didn't say that [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I could hear her thinking it then [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] he could hear you thinking that he was a silly old git [LAUGHTER]. Do you know this conversation's being taped? You've missed you've missed this today. You've missed this today. We're having a k our entire meeting's being taped for er for an interest of science [LAUGHTER] in the interests of science for posterity for a survey on English language [speaker001:] [yawn] [Stuart:] No no this is being done by a university or Longmans press or something like that, surveying the use of language in the nineteen nineties. However [LAUGHTER] they can hear me but they can't hear you so that's no no no we've had a fairly usual frank and honest er discussion. Right okay. Right we'll leave it at that then. Have a nice weekend, keep on taking the pills [LAUGHTER] yeah well you know what it's like y'know there'll be so many people dying for this to fail... well they don't know what's going on but but all they'll get is one call interception which says I can't get through I can't get through, or I've tried this number and it doesn't work and blah you know usual thing but... right I must [LAUGHTER] keep on taking the Buffalo Bills. Yeah that's right. Yes Amsterdam [LAUGHTER] no no no I'm cont contactable. I'll be contactable. I'll be in first thing for half an hour and then I'm off... alright. I'll be in Amsterdam sales office for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah [speaker001:] There's a thrill for ya [Stuart:] Alright cheers bye. Right, sorry about that chaps. Sorry. Right then [Gary:] Are you doing an internal notice on the changes to all departments, including the other airports and everything like that or who's gonna put that out? [Stuart:] Well I was going to but I was I was hoping to get some news on er summer cruise cos I'm gonna do a whole sales department down in swops and changes first [Gary:] But I'm just thinking, the airport's should know and also the switchboards should know... [Stuart:] Well I told, knows... [speaker001:] ... don't look at me like that cos I know that that means [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No it's alright. I think that there ought to be a proper company wide inst or certainly U K wide instruction going out so that everybody's aware of the changes [Stuart:] Alright. I'll send a note round then. You watch some bright spark will say [speaker001:] I think you're gonna get that anyway whatever you People don't mind being referred if it's something that is genuinely but say they phone Leeds and Leeds don't know and Leeds refer them to a number they think it is and then they refer to a third number then somebody gets. If Leeds say it's not something we can deal with here, this is the number you ring and they've been told the wrong number that is a very bad impression and all the airports get calls constantly, as you know from B A days, so no matter what it's about people will ring a local number, no matter whether it's in two foot high capitals saying for enquiries ring this number Yeah Even though it says it's free for you to do it, they'll still ring up another number [Stuart:] Alright so are we have we done point ten have we? [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] Yeah. Point eleven. You've got the notes [speaker001:] You you were just saying about us not knowing. There's my notes from the when I actually passed a repeat and we didn't say that travel agents sales were going to be done on that number. I wrote them down, trade enquiries, then I Don't you remember I stopped no you won't remember but I stopped because I was writing down exactly what we were doing [Stuart:] Alright I won't repeat what said [speaker001:] Thank you very much [Stuart:] All I'll say is you missed a good lunch [LAUGHTER]. Right, air passenger duty. Th the notes that're attached are actually for er he's been looking into the matter and basically it's for information only really [Brett:] It's completely comprehensive and really the only thing I would say in addition to that is er there are further meetings coming up. The next one is er got a meeting on it er I think the airlines are going on a very much a co- ordinated thing er I think most people are probably in agreement with this size eight exemption, make a group specific because really the idea when they put this original proposal in about the size of aircraft was to protect things like the and troops that are shall we say and I think most people would go for that line of thinking because as put in there, why the hell should something again on Cambridge when we can't on Stansted but it was really designed to protect certain things. Erm somehow or other it's going to come along and I think most people's thinkings are that it will be shown as a tax item on the ticket as are the taxes in other countries As you can see the erm, where is it, we've got to have, or the airlines have got to have their submissions in by the end of this month so if we have got anything really that we want to say from sales we ought to be letting have it in in a formal thing. Er the other thing I did mention is we're not the only people who have erm problems with typing. Timetables [Stuart:] Did you know that I was the only one in the management meeting that picked that up? [speaker001:] You were? [Stuart:] I was the only one that picked that up, that I was incorrectly spelt And the other one that caught on second was which says something doesn't it? And even when it was explained to he didn't clock it. [speaker001:] Really? [Stuart:] No, he just looked at everybody blank [Gary:] I went to erm whatever her name is, no, is it? Training cabin staff lady, I've forgotten her name Yeah. And said that really shouldn't our cabin staff announcements be changed to say, that the use of portable telephones is not permitted on the aircraft. She says it is. I said well will you please stop the girls saying the use of portable telephones are not permitted [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] I said three flights that I've been on in the last fortnight. She said Stansted crew, I said yes, and Norwich and Glasgow. Apparently it is laid down as is but they're all saying are because they thing it's telephones are, not use is [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] That's a good one for the tape isn't it? [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] Considering they come from the pick and mix department at [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] is that another one of phrases, is it? Oh it's a fill in, I thought that was sort of more like a personnel type phrase. queens the pick and mix department from oh brilliant. No, it's the personnel statement is well what do you expect from queens who can't talk proper [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] While we're on the subject of can we clear [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] no well that comes last. Please can we get on with the serious stuff please. [Mike:] Oh this is serious I'm sorry it is [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] oh hang on a minute, wait til I've finished please [Mike:] okay sorry [Stuart:] Right, last one then. Twelve, summer schedule ninety four. Does anyone want to say anything about that? [Brett:] I don't know cos we thought you'd be the only one who actually managed to get a copy when nobody else could lay their fice for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah F finalised [Gary:] Well it seems that being a member of the luncheon club gives you some benefits [Stuart:] Yes yes Is it worthwhile talking about it now or shall we leave it til next week? [speaker001:] Probably best [Gary:] asked for a second rotation on Scotland to Amsterdam on a Saturday [Stuart:] Yeah [Gary:] In fact, what they've done is split the morning service. Separate aircraft from Aberdeen and Edinburgh so that will double the capacity but it won't give us two frequencies of cost. So I mean that's that's Seventy five percent of solving the problem because the big problem for capacity was the in-bound on a Saturday morning which, of course, will be solved now [Stuart:] Well we need to we need t there are one or two what I would call relatively minor scheduling issues that we need to keep a handle on and again it's the usual, it's the East coast and Essex stuff isn't it? You know, Teesside, Norwich that sort of thing. I mean, one or two, I mean t you've got a copy haven't ya of latest missive on this which was the twenty third of December actually about all these things. I think he went into far too much detail about it. I'm worried about this Amsterdam Amsterdam because it's obvious from paper [Brett:] Mhm [Stuart:] right that have got a bit of a niche round about five o'clock from bloody Amsterdam and we're getting shafted. I looked at it, I looked at the er [Brett:] Yeah, it's a question of what goes up comes down. It's all the same stuff you know, we can't move forward unless it comes forward at the other end [Stuart:] well you see there to seventeen forty and Stansted to the comparable er [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] service is nineteen fifty. We're getting slaughtered on that and on the other way round. Th that's now what's the w what time is the fifth rotation? [Mike:] Seventeen hundred [Stuart:] It's crap, it's in the middle of the day, it's a load of shit, never sell that. It needs to be it needs to be at one at four, one at six or something like if we can possibly do it [Mike:] In fact you know that's probably one of the only ways we can attack on this [Stuart:] Exactly well it's look at this report. Of all the things that sprung out at me on the paper in this report that we could actually do something about was to slot in a fifth round about the five o'clock crunch time and taken them out the market but I... [Mike:] do something about [Stuart:] Er eighteen forty five to Stansted is ours, there's a seventeen twenty [Mike:] Yeah it's much better [Stuart:] Well it's much more user-friendly schedule than we've got. They're four a day, we're four a day. We've got five a day. We've got one more than them therefore we should use it to our advantage. [Gary:] We haven't got the aircraft at that time, it's peak time [Stuart:] Well why do we then shove it in a stupid s four o'clock job? [Gary:] Because that's when the seats are available [Stuart:] Yeah well come on I mean we ought to be able to be a little bit more creative than that. That's one issue that I don't like. The other issues are Aberdeen to we're gonna get shafted again cos have got a different schedule now haven't they? [Gary:] They're going to today [Stuart:] Yeah, are they? But aren't they going from seven o'clock nine o'clock or something like that? [Gary:] No [speaker001:] No [Gary:] No, not now, our schedules are perfect with that they're planning cos I spoke to the other day [Stuart:] Oh well [speaker001:] Are they still ahead of us out to Aberdeen back to though? They're gonna be after us now Are they? [Gary:] before us but their plan now is to come after us on a D C nine [Stuart:] Oh right, well that's not so bad then I'm happy [speaker001:] so if we get [Stuart:] on this. I'm not sure about the er I'm not sure what the issues are regarding Aberdeen Aberdeen [speaker001:] short spain [Stuart:] Yeah short which is what you suggested get this plane from and then we can probably er [speaker001:] And we need to put an end to the rumour about Stansted I mean it's ridiculous [Stuart:] Well this i that's a lunch club rumour because that one has not been to airport [Mike:] Yeah but that [Stuart:] You what? You what? [Mike:] had meetings with airport [Stuart:] Well I mean that's [Mike:] cos wants to keep the door open [Stuart:] I mean by all means talk, Southend is the latest one over there so [speaker001:] Stansted doesn't it? [Mike:] airport are desperate. were gonna do it weren't they? [Stuart:] ? Well you can almost swim from there [Mike:] Just for the opening of the channel time, that'd be perfect timing for us wouldn't it? Just the sort of wrong time you know [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] who wants to go somewhere when the channel tunnel [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] Well has got to have something to do hasn't he? to justify his job because I mean he's talked to in the past, he's talked about everything. Can we fly er Stansted or whatever bloody hell towns there are, Stansted I mean it's Stansted Stansted every bloody place in that's got a sodding airport [Mike:] I don't think I [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] It's a bit of poetic licence there but I think [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Gary:] if an aircraft does come back it would be an ideal way of getting our market share back from by putting it on the east coast [Stuart:] Well apparently our load facts according to I mean they're sixties all the time so [speaker001:] Apart from where we've only got one or two [Stuart:] Oh well crap yeah Yeah what I don't like about if they're doing [speaker001:] Yes I know [Stuart:] If if they're doing the business on they could be pulling off, that's what I don't like cos the airport's are too so close together, like it's too you know too er... Right, shall we revert, I think more sensible to talk about this in the beginning of February yeah? Yes? [speaker001:] Well, it's getting close... [Brett:] Well it's up to the managers but I agree with Stansted four times a day, I think we're losing a lot of traffic because we have nothing between seven in the morning and three o'clock in the afternoon [Stuart:] That that's [speaker001:] Yeah the other ones on Saturday and Sunday I mean [Stuart:] was tut-tutting that we shouldn't be using out of er Stansted airport, they should be jets [speaker001:] What aircraft could we use for it? Then will have twenty seven [Mike:] That would be too late wouldn't it for that though [speaker001:] Twelve o'clock? [Mike:] Yeah, fourteen hundred [Brett:] Well I can't see why we want the other two but I can see [Stuart:] Yeah this is at weekends. has already crapped himself about the visit cause extra work of course but er the er however we should er revert maybe we'll keep an eye on the schedule and things er but we we need to tie it up tight so we don't get a cos I mean what's being said now in the corridors of power is that the schedule is totally sales driven and it's the sales department that's put it together, I am only the administrator, I only I d I completely take my orders from the sales department quote unquote in front of everybody at the management meeting. looked around and said well he said looked at me said er well cos he was just about to g throw a wobbly and say, well surely the sales department should be dealing with this, should be should be giving him the information and he he just turned round and gave the aforementioned quote and I just sort of went yes it is. I said but you do appreciate there are some dead sectors in the timetable that wouldn't w that even the greatest salesmen in the world couldn't sell because they're precisioning sectors. And he said oh well that will always be the case, that will always be the case. I said well it shouldn't be the bloody case at all and that's when we got into the debate about er Aberdeen to er one following half half an hour after the other. I said well why the why the fuck does it do that? We don't need two services f for the from Aberdeen to one half an hour after the other. Why doesn't it cut out airport and fly one less stop you know. They said oh well we'll have to look at that you know [speaker001:] Well they're doing that now aren't they? Take it to then back through [Stuart:] according to they're they're they're according to I should say they've adjusted it that it's g it's not gonna go Aberdeen it's gonna go Aberdeen or even Aberdeen direct so which is pretty [speaker001:] How many years have we been flying that route? [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] Right okay erm so there's the ref it's refinement rather than radical changes that we're talking about here really isn't it? [Mike:] I'm glad I'm glad he said that cos I'm having a bit of a problem on flights for the summer we want more capacity than

[speaker001:] Right, you w you want thirty seats on that flight? [Stuart:] No no no can't be done haven't got a clue [LAUGHTER] oh dear. Anyway [speaker003:] Just thought I'd mention the Stansted leading forward That's that's the same thing as says, it's reducing the catchment all the time [Stuart:] What was it before? [speaker003:] Seven 0 five [Stuart:] Yeah well the thing is that something's gotta shift because we've got we've got all these bloody flights going out the same time [speaker003:] Well I know but [Stuart:] And they can't cope [speaker003:] Every time you lead it forward like that those early hours will just reduce Well that's what I said, it's nearly half an hour later [Stuart:] Well actually it depends on the weather don't it? It depends on the Alright well if you've got any little any little points like that then you ought to er say like, we won't actually be much longer. We'll be er five ten minutes or so [speaker004:] Oh, is that all? [Stuart:] Yeah. You can sit and wait if you want to [speaker004:] Erm, okay thanks, as long as I don't to er put you off or anything [Stuart:] Yeah, yeah you can sit and wait if you like oh no go away and come back again. Erm when any little any little points like that then we ought to er flag up yeah? But I think w I think corridor communications something like that yeah? [speaker003:] Well he's not around for a while is he? [Stuart:] I don't know where he's gone actually [speaker001:] Where is he? [Stuart:] he's gone on his holidays to the States... Right then... okay, so that's point twelve. That brings us to the end of the normal agenda. Any other business? [Mike:] Right well the office [Stuart:] Right we'll leave that a minute, okay? [Mike:] Can I just erm, no I've got one more regarding communications. Just on the shall we say off-chance I asked what the situation was regarding additional lines between Norwich and Crawley as between Stansted Norwich and Crawley to see if there was anything under way and what the approximate cost would be because erm well I know there's more D D I facilities now. The tie lines are so congested it isn't true, especially with accounts being at Stansted and apparently there has been a proposal in since last March with all the costings and everything which is still waiting on an answer for improved lines which would actually take some of the computer lines and everything. Erm, I'm just surprised that that's taking that long [Stuart:] Well it isn't [Mike:] Apparently the individual costs of the lines are staggering and they reckon that the cost of the calls does not outweigh it but what I think is certainly outweighed is the cost of all our time trying to get through on these lines [Stuart:] Tie lines? [Mike:] Yeah [Stuart:] Oh well [Mike:] Something came up in respect of the tie lines which I'd just like to mention while we're here in respect of. There's been a little bit of shall we say erm not as good co-operation as there might have been, especially between and recently. Now are aware that are losing the agency stuff therefore services should improve generally but this is mostly and the business travel, you know duty travel, cruise positioning that sort of thing, to the extent that erm and two of the ops people paid a visit to last week for a liaison meeting and one thing that I thought was absolutely remarkable that came out was in respect of complaining that they could never get through to anybody in erm in, they couldn't get a reply from the extensions and they couldn't send messages or anything. They weren't aware that we have in the internal telephone directory all the direct dialling lines listed. They weren't aware the were on that they could send them messages. It's absolutely stagger it's such a basic thing that you know that you know [Stuart:] well well it's [Mike:] erm it seemed so disappointing to me that I mean we go to the bother of producing what a fifty odd page telephone directory and people don't even look at it [Stuart:] Yeah well that's [Mike:] Erm I'm g one thing I'm gonna do is ask if she'll flag major changes when she produces the new telephone directories. Maybe just a little front page you know wh look at the big revisions for the sales department or something like that instead of just, when you get a new telephone directory, putting it in your folder and binning the old one, make certain people realise there've been changes. I think it's worth identifying cos it might sort of alleviate this sort of problem [speaker001:] Mhm [Mike:] Okay, that's it [Stuart:] Alright [Mike:] Apart from the subject that you're coming back to [Stuart:] yes we'll come back to that in a minute.? [Brett:] Erm right just t message on secretaries clubs, going to put them on a back burner for a while then in terms of actually forming a club as such [Stuart:] Well we need t we need t we we need to establish ah I hope we do it. [Brett:] Right [Stuart:] In a set format that is circulated and where's the administrative back up? That's what you want isn't it? [Brett:] Mhm [Stuart:] But I mean I [whispering] fuck [] question the the er the t question of the validity of the secretaries club in the Ambassador Hotel when it's in bloody Receivership [Brett:] Yeah well that hotel but there are other ones [Stuart:] Yeah... Well it's it's it's a it's a bit of a weighty subject that. I think we ought to er [Brett:] Yeah okay [Stuart:] Why don't you and I talk about it separately then [Brett:] Yeah alright [Stuart:] If you want [Brett:] Yeah okay [Stuart:] Yeah? Next time we're in the office [Brett:] Right [Stuart:] Secretaries clubs and and what's required and what's done. The worst thing you can do is set these things and then cock it up because secretaries is people that pride themselves on being administratively perfect [Mike:] But you know they do, they do pull people in The one in Yorkshire that used to meet at erm hotel on the A one near Pontefract, used to get people over from Hull for that. What? Sixty miles they used to come over for a good evening at those and maybe two principles presentations but certainly [Stuart:] You all reckon there's good to that [Brett:] The other thing I had this idea of erm you know customer relations erm in fact we give tickets away when people have had problems. We've had times when we've written to commercials and given them free tickets to dig ourselves out of a hole and things. I wondered if we could look at particularly customer relations producing some sort of voucher worth fifty pound or hundred pound or twenty five pound and er we have a stock of those printed up you know [Stuart:] [whispering] oh Christ it's the print money [] [Brett:] and if we have a chap who's erm had bad experience on the plane what we would do now is is give him two free tickets. For instance that chap you gave those tickets to to Munich [Stuart:] Yeah [Brett:] You know to encourage him t well why not just send them a voucher for seventy f seventy five pounds to go towards an ticket next time they book? [Stuart:] No no no so [Brett:] Or twenty five pound [Stuart:] My my my My [Brett:] just like they do the two for one [Stuart:] No my philosophy with customer relations has always been that you don't give somebody a refund, you give them some tickets to fly again so it's keeps them flying [Brett:] Yeah we don't give them a refund, I didn't say a refund, I said a voucher [Stuart:] Well a voucher's cash [Brett:] no a voucher to use [speaker001:] against a flight [Brett:] against an flight, all branded [speaker001:] How do they do that? [Stuart:] accounting problems. What's your objective here? What're you trying to achieve? Just pl placate somebody? [Brett:] to stop giving away free seats when these people are prepared to pay [Mike:] Oh only give them partial you mean [Brett:] Yeah in other words yeah, we we you're gonna complain and to not send them a cheque you give them two free seats which we know the cost of that is is minimal. Nevertheless if they were going to fly again they were gonna pay for a seat and they're only looking for some recompense towards a new new ticket what's wrong with sending them a voucher y'know, a properly produced voucher that we c that's controlled properly by and all they do is guarantee any travel at their normal travel agent, do the business, attach the voucher to the B S P [speaker001:] Well he'd have to process his direct like the two for one voucher or something like that [Mike:] Why couldn't do it? doing it [Brett:] Well the trade would be benefiting because when we give away free tickets we're taking commission away from them. This way we're s we're not. We'll give them the full commission on the full ticket [Mike:] Yeah, but it is another procedure and [Stuart:] Well they complain doing two for ones I mean never mind this [Brett:] They'd get the full commission on the ticket [Stuart:] [whispering] oh God [] [Brett:] And just clip the [Mike:] Perhaps the best way of doing it would be to give th erm them an N C O [Brett:] Why not give them a duty free voucher next time they fly? [speaker001:] gonna be worth a lot of money, with some people you've got to give them a couple of free tickets The duty free voucher though would go to the passenger whereas the th erm the company which most of these will be for [Brett:] We send it to whoever needs it, the company or the passenger [speaker001:] yeah but if it was a duty free voucher [Brett:] give someone a twenty five duty free voucher some of these people are gonna want [speaker001:] Yeah but it's something personal [Brett:] Yeah that's what I mean [speaker001:] It's like air miles isn't it? [Brett:] Well it's low this is lower cost than what we're doing currently, we're giving away, we're getting nothing only a cost of of twenty five quid on the seat. I'm suggesting we send that man a voucher for fifty pound that his company or he puts towards the next time they buy a full fare or an Apex and then we actually get fifty quid or a hundred and fifty quid. You're actually giving away nothing. You've only got the cost of printing a voucher. I think I think we give away far too many free tickets [Stuart:] Well I m d done it myself I mean I mean [Brett:] Not us not us, every time I speak to somebody about something, you know marketing can do it, y'know everybody's d giving away free tickets as a way out of y'know compensate the people, re-dressing the situation. Why not just send them out with a n y'know a nice letter and the voucher. If we sent y'know what's w c y'know other companies do that. If you g if you have a problem with Burtons y they don't send you a free suit, do they? They send you a Burton's voucher to the value of whatever you're looking for, be it ten quid or f and you go in there and you buy a suit you know and everybody's happy. What's the difference? Why do we give away... Not only are we incurring the cost of what we're giving away but we're losing revenue with people that would have flown with us anyway [Stuart:] Well I think you need to follow that one up actually. If you wanna follow that one up with customer it needs how it'll work [Brett:] you bring it up at the update and get some feedback from that [Stuart:] Well maybe [Brett:] You've got the er people like... [Stuart:] I'll bring it up voucher for er [Brett:] If y'know if it's possible t [Mike:] I would have thought M C A might be the easiest way of doing it but I'll think about it because the passenger could hand the M C A over to the agent, together with a little note that we have attached to it. Dear mister travel agent please accept this as part payment of so and so. You will receive full cash on the ticket [Brett:] Yeah, agent's happy, taken, we're making money. In fact I believe [Mike:] I'll check with how we'd go about it administrative accounting wise And then of course the agent [Stuart:] I'll just put down voucher for compensation case to be investigated Next? [Brett:] No, that's it [Stuart:] That's it? Nothing? No A O B. The only A O B I've got is trade mags and subscriptions. Right, I'm gonna get one of the girls in the office to send out a note and find out who gets what trade mag cos the supply of T T G's and Travel Weekly's has sort of dried up and I don't know who gets them. I don't know whether reps get them at home, do they? [speaker001:] Some of them do yeah [Stuart:] Do they subscribe to them themselves? [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] What, and pay for it themselves? [speaker001:] No no no no would pay on the credit card [Stuart:] What d'you mean credit card? [speaker001:] Pay on the credit card, subscribe visa card [Stuart:] What, their own visa card? [speaker001:] No no [Stuart:] We phoned up T T G and Travel Weekly and they've only got five or six names on on each list [speaker001:] Well they're the ones who get it then [Stuart:] I wanna send a circular out. I want people to tick off what they get and what they don't get right? [speaker001:] round robin? [Stuart:] Yes well Well that's no good [Brett:] I get the T T G delivered to my home cos I subscribe for it and I get the business one that you do when [Stuart:] yeah well I did that centrally you see. [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] Everybody gets one and I wanna s I don't wanna I wanna I wanna bring these in-house via the sales office and have them all centrally distributed cos it's no good well if you read the T T G and the Travel Weekly it's already taken two days. If you don't get it there and then it's not worth reading [Mike:] Well there's no point in bringing them in-house then because the people need them at their homes [Stuart:] administration of it in house [Mike:] Oh I beg your pardon right [Stuart:] the addresses will be home addresses yeah. So got that as a little project and on that subject let's talk about [Mike:] They won't send them to home addresses free? [Brett:] No [Mike:] T T G and Travel? [Stuart:] We don't get any free. Now cut all back all free copies [Mike:] Have they [Stuart:] Yes. You get four and that's about it. Everything else you pay for. I don't mind, I'll pay for it. I'm not bothered about paying for them [Mike:] Okay [Stuart:] I'll just make sure that er we get them. Alright sales office then. What're we gonna do about? I've spoken to right er and owes me a few favours and I've said er would you consider her completing her training until the end of May middle of May which she does at the and then if she's any good, take her on, providing she gets a driving licence. Old mate, old pal. [speaker001:] [whispering] what did he say [] [Stuart:] He said yes [LAUGHTER] I said I said cos you don't know but she's a n she's a nice girl, she looks alright in uniform, she's not very bright but she's brighter than some of the ones you've got er give her a meet and greet job where she just has to smile and point people in the general direction of the bogs and things like that, er, I said and she'll be alright [speaker001:] She looks bloody smart in uniform [Stuart:] He said but she'd be considered along with all the others but she ain't gonna get a job with terminal full time when her contract runs out on May the eighteenth if she doesn't get her finger out and get dr driving test passed and buy herself a car. Of course, this is a catch twenty two situation because she hasn't got the money to buy a to have the driving lessons or the money to buy the car cos she gets crap wages [speaker001:] get er terminal [Stuart:] Yeah shifts shifts. No public transport from mate at five o'clock in the morning if not earlier. I can't say, can't do more than that. He's prepared to consider her application extremely favourably. on site time- keeping and sickness is low but at the end of the day when it comes to the middle of May then she ain't gonna get a sh she ain't gonna be employed anyway to be quite honest, unless she pulls her finger out. But sh you know what she's like. spoken to her, spoken to her, spoken to her, she doesn't get the message. And she's now getting extremely bored with that job. It's fairly obviously and her heart's not in it. She's not really enthusiastic about it and of course no doubt we're getting problems again, stuff going missing, stuff like that, whatever [speaker001:] Yeah [Stuart:] I think all I can say about that is I think the introduction of the new part timer the new, two or whatever you wanna call her. I mean she's shit hot she does I mean she's pretty efficient isn't she? And pretty good anyway so we've got two good part-timers in there [Mike:] That was the best thing we ever did, taking on two part-timers [Stuart:] Yeah yeah justifying their own sufficiency Despite getting [speaker001:] I don't think that was a good idea [Stuart:] And I I can't understand it and I still haven't got to the bottom of the reason why is doing, seems to me to be doing a lot of work herself [Brett:] Yeah well she's never been shown how to delegate [Stuart:] to delegate yeah well I mean that's this is why I think I should bring forward a supervisors course for, for, for, for [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] And get it done as soon as possible [Brett:] Yep [Stuart:] right a and get them some of the skills that're required and hopefully that'll help out [Mike:] We'll have to watch one's sickness the week away [Brett:] Yeah she's started to go off sick a lot but she seemed a lot better when she came back after Christmas [Mike:] Yeah [Brett:] A lot more enthusiastic. Did you get that impression? [Stuart:] yeah yeah well I know she was getting that way towards Christmas. She was sort of c getting over the getting over the disappointment and she was getting a little bit more user- friendly and she No no but er they they are seems to be a bit better er about it. I think it's because she's got a little pal now with the other [Brett:] Surely it's just [Stuart:] cos they smoking together in the afternoons y'know [Brett:] Surely the the erm y'know harmony in the work place and all that. It must there must be it must be possible to speak to her about the fact that she's not communicating. I mean that can't be right. Surely it [Stuart:] We've had this before [Brett:] Surely we shouldn't allow that c to continue and surely that's er that's er can be made into quite a semi-formal type of that's not on is it? [Stuart:] What? Well it's not disrupting work. I mean how can you justify talking to her about that when the efficiency is improved since she hasn't been talking to people? [Brett:] Well that's only because it was terrible before though [Stuart:] Yeah but it's still improved [Brett:] Yeah [Stuart:] She's gonna turn round and say you can't complain about my work rate and we're not complaining about her work rate. Her work rate's improved. Yeah but what stand are you gonna measure against? [Brett:] No but [sigh] well erm I'm not sure I follow the logic of that. I mean if you're saying that by not communicating everybody's performance gets better, let's tell them all not to talk to each-other [Stuart:] Well in theory that's the way most typing pools works [Brett:] Yeah but it's not a typing pool, is it? [Stuart:] Well it is to a certain extent it's a bit of a typing pool as well as a sales office but in [Brett:] Well okay [Stuart:] in theory they should not be able to talk to each-other because they're either answering the phone and talking to somebody else bloody getting on looking at the screen and typing [Brett:] Yeah but you know what I mean don't you? [Stuart:] Yeah I know what you mean but it's not it doesn't necessarily work out that way cos [speaker001:] Is still intent on looking for another job do you know? [Stuart:] No she she's been looking but I don't know if she's still looking, I don't know. She's probably looked and found she couldn't get anything better. That's probably nearer the truth [Brett:] Well I think, I've gotta say that I think it might be ha it might be working better now with there but when not there and we go to and say can you tell me where X Y Z is, the response you're gonna get is I'm sorry I don't know and the reason she won't know is that she's never bothered to ask because she's not talking so it's okay while there but it won't be when she's not because I've had that, sorry I don't know. I don't do that you know [Stuart:] Well she's not gonna be co-operative because she's not being paid to be the supervisor [Brett:] Well surely this is something we've got t it's got to come out and come out come out and say [Stuart:] I don't I'm not at the moment I'm quite happy. I'm as happy as I can be. If we can if we can shift aside erm and get rid of that problem then I think that's the s probably the priority rather than the situation. It hasn't affected your area has it? [Mike:] It's not ideal because erm there's been a number of minor instances where when they don't speak to each-other, you speak to one or the other and [Stuart:] Well you see the thing is [Mike:] across [Stuart:] If I sit down and talk to I've said this and I'll say it I've said it ad nauseam. It's job now, getting paid to be the supervisor gotta supervise the office right? [speaker001:] Yep [Stuart:] and I can't do it, that's the whole point of having a supervisor [Mike:] Yep [Stuart:] therefore if I talk to then it's no good [Mike:] Put it this way if I was having a problem with a member of my staff, or was, and we felt we wanted your help then you would come in and talk to them [Stuart:] Well what you're saying is that me and ought to talk to her [Mike:] Yeah in the first place. I think this is what you're saying is that [Stuart:] Huh? [Brett:] erm is not talking to in the first place [Stuart:] No surely [Mike:] not ideal so we say to you it's not ideal so the supervisor, so you have to say to, this has gotta be sorted, this is not ideal, this isn't gonna work when you're not here. If she then requires your help or whatever then that it has to go from there. I'm not suggesting that you, you're right, I don't think you should speak to but I can't see that that's well maybe they're more efficient now they bloody well ought to be, there's twice as many people in there. I think the way it should be tackled is speak to about it, say that we still believe that y'know it can't go on forever obviously it can't go on forever because I think the longer it goes on the worse it'll become in all honesty [Stuart:] Yeah I mean it's gone on long enough I mean I don't mind giving her a couple of weeks or something [Mike:] Do you do you not think it would be better for us both to speak to? speak to her and say obviously you were upset about not getting the job but this non- communication thing is not really erm going to you know be good for the sales office in the long term. Is there something you want to say? Or, you know, how are we gonna solve this problem? [Stuart:] I think we've gotta tackle it like that cos it won't go away will it? [Mike:] If anything it'll get worse because it'll be more of an effort to re re-communicate [Brett:] It's the new year now [Mike:] oh well, what d'you think? D'you think there's anything further in me considering my ideas of them having half an hour not working session a week? [Brett:] if they're not speaking to each-other [Mike:] No but they'll have to then won't they? They can't just sit there and saying nothing. They'd have to talk about things. [Brett:] Oh well that's another thing for to get under her wing isn't it, how she's going to integrate her department? frankly won't know anything about motivating people [Stuart:] Well you see I sit down on a I sit down on a fairly regular basis with now and try to give her direction and er point out, and I do make the point, about every time and, right? Er and complained about her pay, right, so I've got her upgraded. Erm hopefully upgraded. We'll get the fax in the office in the next couple of weeks hopefully er you know it's all it's all winning by inches there's no grand great play that's gonna work with that. It's gonna be erm bit by bit isn't it? [Mike:] It's going to put the erm actual availability up quite a bit of people having that fax there [Stuart:] Yeah that's right Yeah well it is it is and also we might get to a situation where by er you know people are slitting each-other in the throat at this rate [speaker001:] [whispering] no way [] [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [whispering] no way [] [Stuart:] but y I can't I have to say and I know right can't give her what she wants is somebody to sit down somebody to sit her down and talk to her and you can't give her the benefit of that because it's a little battle right between the two silly little girls if you like and if that j if that happens had won right and that's the way will feel it [speaker001:] No [Stuart:] Oh yes oh yes [speaker001:] I don't follow what you mean, how d'you mean? [Stuart:] well playing the game playing the game and th and she's prepared to sit it out and play it as long as she can. If she's hauled in the office with me and there she's she's as far as she's concerned she's won. The situation would deteriorate after that. I don't think it would get any better. [speaker001:] Well okay [Stuart:] cos she'll say ha ha ha they've cracked they've cracked [Brett:] It's not acceptable as it is, is it? I don't think it's acceptable as it is. If she wants to go down the road making life more unpleasant then then we got down that road as well and she'll be the loser [Stuart:] Well the thing at the end of [speaker001:] and we don't we needed her before because we had one typist, we don't need that now, we c we can cover [Stuart:] the thing is that [speaker001:] yeah but she's one of the best typists I have to say. I can trust more than I can some of the others, some of the mistakes you get [Stuart:] Well okay but I mean that doesn't that [speaker001:] well I don't know I mean I think pretty good, the new is pretty good, not a problem I've had problems with [Brett:] She's not as good as the new two [Mike:] fax numbers and things put on but that alright let's give she came back to me the other day and said I cannot get this fax through and had actually typed down the wrong fax number two or three mistakes recently and not dictated mistakes, copy mistakes. On the whole she's very good and she's very very quick [speaker001:] I mean I get the impression that likes working for and myself and she likes her own sphere of influence right which is fair enough as far as it goes [Stuart:] yeah [speaker001:] but when she's not there then I have real problems. When she was away for those ten days I mean certain things just couldn't be done because no-one knew [Stuart:] well no because hasn't hasn't [speaker001:] I can recollect the brief you gave to and we all agreed it is that everybody would be able to do yeah she spoke to and said we've discussed it cos I asked whether she'd done that, she said she'd spoken to and said we've discussed that we should share the work more equally and said no I'm happy with the way things were and left it that way [Stuart:] it's like when she asked her whether she would change her hours from half past nine to six to cover the office and said no I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing and couldn't have coped with the confrontation you see. This is where is lacking in a little bit of er you know authority or she's not quite sure right. Changing somebody's hours is a little bit different but [speaker001:] one of the things I'm thinking of in the longer term and I I bounced this of er was that if groups moved to Stansted could not be moved across to groups to sort this problem out because I think she's getting bored in what she's doing [Stuart:] Groups to do what? [speaker001:] one of the groups people [Stuart:] what, pick up the phone and sell on the phone? [speaker001:] well it's not selling is it? I mean it's t a lot of it's order taking and quoting [Stuart:] I thought you wanted her to be more pro-active? [speaker001:] yeah but you'll have one or two people more pro-active because the bulk of the job the three other people who will be there will be order-takers dealing with allocations and this sort of thing and you'll need somebody to erm no it's not addressing the issue but I said in the longer term that could be one of the options I don't [Brett:] yeah I couldn't have somebody in my team who wasn't bloody talking to somebody else and that's what I think whatever you do I think it's gotta be done and if she can if she thinks she's won and all the rest of it [Mike:] it's pride now actually cos what's [Stuart:] of course it's pride, it's been pride since the start. It's been pride since the start and it's pathetic silly little girls isn't it? I mean that's all it is being very very er childish girls have a tendency to do that sort of thing don't they? They don't they bear grudges don't they and they don't go away but [speaker001:] yeah but that's that's fair enough but that doesn't mean we have to er [Stuart:] alright well I'll have a I'll have another chat with when I get the flipping chance and then [Brett:] because I don't speak to at all now and that can't be right and the reason I don't is because I know the response I'm gonna get, blank look [Stuart:] Well I mean you never actually got much of a response before to be quite honest with you [Brett:] well no I didn't but that only was because she was focusing her attention on and work so I never had need to [Mike:] I'm quite happy with the service giving [Stuart:] well maybe maybe that's the answer [Brett:] are you? [Mike:] well I think she's been fully occupied with your stuff since she came back, she hasn't touched any of mine up to last night [Brett:] really? [Stuart:] well to be quite honest I mean th that sounds like good er justification as far as I'm concerned for moving a moving her work to somebody else or moving her on to somebody else [Mike:] you see up to now she hasn't had a chance to okay maybe it's erm [Brett:] what d'you mean by that? [Mike:] irrelevant now [Stuart:] can do your work can do your work or can do your work, whatever, maybe that'll maybe that'll mix it up a bit [Brett:] well something we've gotta do something I think do something [Stuart:] well to be quite honest I'll I'll state my point of view at the moment. I don't give a damn. I mean I think it's wor as far as I'm concerned I'm g w I think we're all getting out of it what we want [Mike:] I would agree with that [Stuart:] Yeah we're getting out of it what we want. The fact that there's like a sort of stand off position between two individuals in the office, the stupid thing about it is she's blaming for what's happened to her and had nothing to do with it [Brett:] no I know [Stuart:] I mean that's [Brett:] the thing is tha the stand up position has been created by us [Stuart:] yeah but talks to me. Still [Brett:] I know we crea we've created the stand up between them in so much as s she blames for what's happened t to her. It's us that promoted and surely if we created the situation it might work in our favour but it I mean it can't be very pleasant for other people [Mike:] yeah but the scenario is it's like er gets the national accounts job without interviewing everyone else and someone [Brett:] yeah but I deal with that don't I? [Mike:] that's what I mean, that's what the scenario is [Brett:] yeah I'd deal with it [Mike:] you wouldn't allow somebody else who'd got the sulks on because they weren't interviewed [Brett:] no exactly and this is not what we're doing in this case [Stuart:] yeah because the person er who's job it is to deal with the sulks for want of a better phrase there is not is preferring not to tackle the issue because as far as she's concerned it's not affecting the efficiency of the office, that's what I'm trying to say and it's not, in fact it's added to the efficiency of the office if anything. I know what you mean I mean [speaker001:] alright well we'll ask this question again then after gone on holiday to the States and see whether [Brett:] how long's she away for? [Stuart:] ten days [Brett:] is acting supervisor then? [speaker001:] if it doesn't [Brett:] is acting supervisor then? [Stuart:] Oh well that's er that's a classic isn't it? [Brett:] Exactly. Who's gonna run the office then when is not there then? [Mike:] That means gotta brief of what there is outstanding [Brett:] cos that's when you find out the efficiency of a department isn't it? That's like when you find out how good my department is or, when we're not here [Stuart:] yeah [Brett:] run on or does it come to a grinding fucking cock up? and that's what I think will happen when is not there [Stuart:] well that's always what's happened in the past [Brett:] exactly [Stuart:] that's why we made her the supervisor [Brett:] exactly, so if it still happens in the future we haven't moved full forward have we? We've promoted and nothing's changed. [Stuart:] I agree with that statement you've just made that's indefatigable logic [speaker001:] [whispering] big word [] [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] when are you hoping to get the supervisory courses? [Stuart:] A S A P well at the end of the month [speaker001:] oh I see it end of this month? [Stuart:] well end of Feb more like it [speaker001:] is it gonna be before or after that was all. I mean why a position to do the work prior to her going away [Mike:] As it stands at the moment all we've done is thrown numbers at the typing [speaker001:] yeah [Stuart:] yeah so we create a supervisor, we've thrown numbers at the er the typing, swopped around a few hours, changed a bit here, changed a bit there, it's all cosmetic stuff around the edges [Brett:] phase one to use your words in res [Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] [Brett:] now we need phase two I think [Stuart:] alright then, fair enough I I I yeah I agree I can't I have to buy that one [speaker001:] good [Stuart:] but I think needs probably some training before we attack phase two [speaker001:] and? well yeah [Stuart:] okay well I'll get that supervisors course I'll give N H A a ring and see how fast they can do it yeah cos really needs it as well doesn't she? [speaker001:] yeah [Stuart:] yeah? Alright then okay erm it's five o'clock now. Erm [speaker001:] It's the most productive meeting we've ever had I'm sure [Stuart:] well [speaker001:] for a long time [Stuart:] numbers dictate these sort of things but anyway now I'll be absolutely crushed hour now, five o'clock on a Friday. six hours. Yeah er Okay then I've as far as I'm concerned draw the meeting to a close now. The next meeting erm [speaker001:] Thursday? [Stuart:] which is Feb tenth. I think we'll have it in Norwich actually cos I wanna w want a few words with the day after so while I'm in Norwich Norwich and can hobble to the meeting Okay, you've got all your dates for your appraisals. We shall stick to those and er I'll sort of see you all er anon. Right? Okay? Right, thanks a lot for your attention and I shall see you when I see you. That's it my man you can switch it off now [speaker004:] Great, thanks very much for your help [Stuart:] That's alright [speaker004:] see the result free flight to New York or something

[speaker001:] Right, erm, eighteenth of January, er, Department of Finance and Administration Cascade Meeting. Er, Great North House, Northern Development Company. O K Marion, would you care to kick off? [speaker002:] Yes, O K, erm, I brought what I thought would be a help from last week. [speaker001:] Did your report back? we didn't have a meeting the first week, did we? Marion? and I wasn't in the last week so I doubt whether [speaker002:] Do you want one on last week?, It's all there I assume, [speaker001:] O K, right, O K, yes [speaker002:] Erm, the quarterly report went out towards the end of that first week, erm, with the annual finance statements, erm, we're ple, quite encouraging because of the erm, S and E enquiries, were actually done on his proportion for once. Only just, but, because er, a hundred and eleven, if the enquiry's a hundred and six or constitutions, which is quite good, and obviously December was really quiet but then that's standard anyway, because, quite possibly not because it was sort of erm, he's shown with an which didn't [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] So it's something folded back on one side yes,? [] [speaker002:] I mean it's not that vital to me, but I hadn't [speaker003:] Yes Yes. [speaker002:] , but I'm not surprised, so, erm, in our previous visit they did give us [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Then was down in Middlesbrough for a couple of days that week, and er, I think amused everybody by calling it miserable all the time, I dread to think what. [speaker001:] I told you how he was on the phone that day, I mean, he hadn't the foggiest idea of what, what he was doing or where he was going, I don't know. [speaker002:] I think he got on er, quite well down there, because he'd spent a few days up here he had a better idea of what he wanted to ask, and what he wanted to talk about and so on, but erm, only because his deadline's and [speaker003:] do you want to ring? [speaker002:] Ah, right, I don't, I think it's now been called regional Christmas Day [speaker003:] Makes a lot more sense, O K At Mercury, he clocked the sponsorship erm, late last year. Right, I must get some literature actually from Barry because as you know, it, it, we can't get it all out of the now, [speaker002:] Right, oh and Phil went to the Stoke conference on that Thursday and Friday. He got bored silly and considered it a complete waste of time. Which I did try to tell [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Erm, I seem to remember that's the day that East Anglia kind of just disappeared in [speaker002:] Mm, yes, yes. That's right, [speaker001:] I was supposed to have a meeting on with erm, a couple of guys from the British Coal Enterprise down in Middlesbrough with, but unfortunately again the weather caught all of them out and they decided not to come, but didn't occur to them to say they wouldn't come, so I sat down there for an hour, and eventually managed to find a phone number and get in contact and the guy was still there, and he said oh no I'm not coming up. This was like quarter to twelve, he should have been there at eleven o'clock. No he got stuck in London the night before because of the bad weather, and he started saying oh I'm sorry I don't think I'm going to be able to make it. Well I said, I was a bit concerned, I said it would be nice if you could let us know and [speaker003:] Especially since you travel er, er, twenty or thirty to get there. Yes, that's right, yes, I mean until you get there. [speaker002:] I mean he knew that because he'd contacted me up here and I said well, to make it easier for you we could meet in Middlesbrough, save you coming up from er, Mansfield. I said well, it cuts the, it cuts the journey in half then. I wasn't too happy about that but never mind. Erm, what else, last week I had a meeting with Mike and Yvonne from D T I and Phil. I was looking forward to talk a bit about er, what they're doing er, in the way of seminars and so on this year and how we can tie in with it, and how we're going to erm, actually take over the forum plan for Eurofile. It's typical, they just accepted it all, so it didn't really achieve a great deal, but Mike told me quite a lot of things that I don't really have any idea, or I didn't know about, [speaker003:] What achievement of financial business will four year plan, will it make anything else? I can't see that they can afford to be a high profile company? [speaker002:] They're going to erm, they're going to give the money towards running a forum, but not a great deal, and then it doesn't even cost that much, it just really a question of erm, mailshots and twice yearly events or whatever. [speaker003:] You don't think it'll be once they put the money [speaker002:] Yes, so it's, you know, it's like two mailshots up once a quarter or whatever, minutes, and I'm paying for a lunch. you're thinking of direct costs, but erm, Phil was going to ask Jeff if he would chair it, and also if he'd be willing, to be sort of editor in chief, of Eurofile, so that was yesterday, and I haven't seen Phil since, don't know what happened with that and went to him that it was a briefing meeting. [speaker003:] yes [speaker002:] This individual just about won, in fact it was over by ten past two. [speaker003:] Yes, Oh I, yes, I can see here, yes, that's only two [speaker001:] It's more than I saw of him. [speaker003:] Mhm, [speaker001:] Why I'm not sure [speaker003:] Walkies [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But erm, yes, so I still don't know what's happening with that yet, and I'm waiting also for them to confirm a date for this first sort of Do Business in France seminar, that we're going to help them with, which was originally going to be February, and is now going to be March. We think it was going to be the seventh and the eighth and the ninth, and they've told Newcastle City it's the ninth, but she was meant to confirmed last Wednesday, and she's still not. So erm, I've had a word [speaker001:] Are export involved in this, I mean it seems quite if they're not? [speaker002:] Mm, yes, but the trouble is they're not going to be interested in Europe, so they're not, Western Europe. They don't know how useful it would be but anyway, they said there, there's, it's a slightly odd event because it's actually going to be just in the Civic Centre, and er, and kind of tacking on some workshops and things, so I'm going to help her with workshops and have a display stand and so on but other than that, we've not really got any direct input into it, because it is very much, sort of, you know, this is how you do business in France, these are the financial problems, type of thing. [speaker003:] It's just a good workshop, yes [speaker002:] Which I was for shying off anyway, because I don't think it's any of our, our business. I'm mean they've got export people that know about that, and E C people one of those things. Yes, that's right, so I said you know, it's on a general level, I said yes, fine. But, er, other people start bringing up sort of problems with the French tax situation on such and such a structure of company or whatever, which is not anything we want to get involved with. So I had a meeting with Dailey to talk about the workshops and so on, so we've bashed out the format and er, and what we think we'd like to do, but it's partly dependent on D T I, because it is their event, and we want to be seen to hijack it. Erm, I had a meeting with Ian and erm,Do, Dorothy. Mhm, and told them that you wouldn't be your present arrangement [speaker001:] Erm, yes, quite [speaker002:] They took it remarkably well really, but er, I think there needs to be soft There must be have contingency, because Anne'd go up the wall... over that. You know, I don't know it was sort of well, have a little bit of a boss at Bill then, as a restraining influence [speaker001:] in the past [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm no help either, I did sort of wonder what she'd say but she's. They've been sort of so falsely jolly in the past, it sickens me.

[speaker001:] Creator and sustainer of all things and all people. You are the source of all wisdom and light. Enlighten our minds to receive your guidance so that you may lead us unto true wisdom. May all that we say and do in the service of this county, whether as elected member or as officer, be in accordance with your will and for the good of your people. Amen. Yes we've got about two hundred people outside. [speaker002:] Firstly, evacuation procedure. In the event, and this is a normal evacuation procedure, not with the circumstances. In the event of having to evacuate the council chamber would everyone leave by one of the two exits at the rear of the chamber. Officers will be at hand to assist any disabled persons.... Agenda item one, Chairman's announcement -visitors. I welcome to this meeting all visitors and guest of members... and in particular to the Mayor and Mayoress of Councillor and Mrs Mike.... Mr Robert and Mr Ken. I know members will be sorry to hear that Mr Robert and Mr Ken are both unwell and will wish me to convey to them the council's best wishes for a speedy recovery. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] The, there are two hundred people I am told, in the hall at the rear... so I shall move shortly resolution to bring forward motion at the rear of the agenda forward, before that I shall deal with the routine council business of petitions, declarations of interest and members' questions. After that I shall move the resolution to bring the motion forward. Agenda item two. I move that the minutes of the meeting of the council held on thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three, copies of which have been circulated to members, to be taken as read, confirmed and signed.... Item four. Declarations of interest. Are there any members who wish to do make declarations of pecuniary and non-pecuniary interests in respects of items on the agenda for this meeting. [speaker001:] Chairman, I wish to declare an interest on the social services erm item regarding elderly person's homes. Mr an interest in policy and resources item B. Mr I declare an interest in, on item nine part B. Mr... the resources issue. Could we just clear whether those are pecuniary or non-pecuniary. [speaker002:] Could you confirm whether these are pecuniary or non- pecuniary interests please? Could we start [speaker001:] Pecuniary. [speaker002:] Pecuniary. [speaker001:] Non-pecuniary. [speaker002:] Non-pecuniary. [speaker001:] Pecuniary. [speaker002:] Pecuniary. [speaker001:] Non-pecuniary. [speaker002:] Non-pecuniary. Thank you. No other interests, right. Agenda item four, petitions presented under standing order seven. Mr. [Taylor:] Thank you gentlemen. I would like to present a petition standing my, in my name on the green order paper... signed by two hundred and eight... si signatures of parents of St Mary's Fields s school, erm I move that this be... be referred to the education committee for consideration. [speaker002:] Mrs... seconding. [Setchfield:] Seconded. [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Mrs [Beale:] Thank you chairman. I wish to present the petition containing seven hundred and eighty three signatures of people who request the provision of a pedestrian crossing in Brook Side, Burghley following two recent accidents to elderly residents as elaborated on the green order paper. I move that the petition be referred to the environment committee for consideration [speaker002:] Mr [Beale:] Second that. [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr [Taylor:] I'd like to move a petition containing four, two hundred and forty nine signatures of residents of Broadstone who request a ped pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane near road. I move that it be sent to the environment committee for consideration. [speaker002:] Mrs [Setchfield:] Seconded. Mr Chairman [speaker002:] Er, Mr. [Joranpucher:] Thank you chairman. I wish to present a petition containing seven hundred and ninety six signatures organised by the Bell Group community childcare, set up due to lack of affordable child care facilities in the Belgrave area. I move this petition to be referred to the Social Services committee. [speaker001:] Mrs [Bury:] Seconded chairman. [speaker002:] Mr [Willmott:] I I move the petition in my name on the green order paper Chairman, to restrict the speed of of cars in Mossgate, Leicester on behalf of Weston Park Labour party. I move that it be... referred to the environment committee. [speaker002:] Mr. [Howard:] Second that. [speaker002:] Mr, J R [speaker001:] I'd like to move this petition under my name on the green order paper, that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration today. [speaker002:] Mr Cyril Mr I'd like to move a petition containing two hundred and forty four signatures and my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mrs [Taylor:] Seconded chairman [speaker002:] Mr I move a petition containing nine hundred and sixteen signatures under my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mr [speaker001:] Seconded chairman. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Not quite as tall eh. Mr. [Setchfield:] I'd like to present a petition containing five hundred er plus signatures from residents in road area who are concerned with traffic conditions on that road. I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. [speaker002:] Mr. [Beale:] Second. [speaker001:] Without seconding seconded [speaker002:] Mr [Willmott:] Thank you chairman. I will... move that the petition containing some one thousand one hundred and nine signatures as of, as of today, erm of people who call upon the county council to reverse its decision to sell part of the land known as The Green, Doddington Heath in my ward for development purposes. The petitioners further request Chairman, that the county council retain this land in perpetuity as an open space that is managed to conserve its considerable ecological value and recreational value... and I would urge that this committee, this this council refer the petition to the policy and resources committee and that the decision of the council is reversed on this matter. Thank you unclear [speaker001:] here, here I'd be delighted to second it Chairman. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mrs. [Taylor:] Erm yes, thank you Chairman, erm I present a petition on behalf of the er people of the village of Bradstone er concerned about the dangerous alignment of the highway and ask that this be referred to the environment committee. [speaker002:] Mr Er, seconded. Mrs [Beale:] Chairman, I ask that you receive erm, the petition of eight hundred and sixty four signatures requesting a pelican crossing on and ask it be referred to the environment committee, please. [speaker002:] Mrs [Taylor:] Seconded. [speaker002:] Mrs again. [Beale:] Thank you Chairman. The second one to present the petition of one thousand three hundred and seventy two signatures asking that, who are opposed to Brady Hospital being turned into... specialised unit for adolescents and to ask the county council not to proceed with plans to develop a group three community home on the site, erm I ask it be referred to the social services committee. [speaker002:] Mrs [Taylor:] Seconded. [speaker002:] Doctor [Joranpucher:] I'd like to move a petition containing seven hundred and twelve signatures, residents of Broadstone who request the installation of a pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane, bottom end of Shakespeare Drive and propose that it is passed on to the environment committee for consideration. [speaker002:] Mr [Bury:] Seconded Chairman. [speaker002:] Mr [Willmott:] I wish to move a petition signed by four hundred and one people organised by the Hikehams Community Association asking the full county council to freeze its decision on of the Hikehams and Moat... er merger issue. I wish the petition to be referred to the policy and resources committee. [speaker002:] Mr. Mr. [Howard:] Thank you Chair. Smallest petition of the lot, but the most important one... regarding road. Can I move that it be referred to the environment er committee. Ciao. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mr Mr. [speaker001:] Sir I wish to present a petition containing a hundred and sixty six signatures of people who are opposed to the shutting off of the road calling instead... for [LAUGHTER] the loco, the low cost tr er calming, traffic calming in the area. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr I'd like to second that petition. Mr [Taylor:] Petition containing nine hundred and ninety three signatures... of people who are opposed to the East West link road. I move that the decision be referred to the environment committee for consideration. [speaker002:] Mr B There are other petitions appertaining to a motion they will be referred to when the motion is taken. Now move on to agenda item five, questions under standing orders. Miss er Mr would you. [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Chair, with with the, with one small exception in in her reply that of Hamilton Community College... would the Chairman agree that er the others she mentions in her reply to one... and I note that she doesn't agree with Keith M P erm, would she, would she accept that the others are largely inaccessible to the youth of Nether Hall and what's she gonna do about it? [speaker002:] Mrs supplementary [Beale:] I don't know... I don't know who Mr is referring to er Chair, but I presume you wish me to reply to some comments that came from across the other side of the room. [speaker001:] [clapping] [LAUGHTER] nice one sir [] [speaker002:] I thought Mrs you'd be capable of defending yourself. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Beale:] Erm, I er have never known such a question asked in this council chamber where referring to members of parliament er in in er and that is why I didn't feel it necessary [speaker002:] Can you use the mike? [Beale:] To comment on that in my reply.... I didn't think it necessary to comment about that in my reply to that, in fact I have, I was speaking with er Mr when I saw this question down and reported it to him that his name was being used in such a way... erm. I'd like to say that in reply to the question your Mr will see that we are arranging a meeting to discuss the issues... of youth facilities... in erm the Netherhall area. I think everybody in this council chamber could say we want youth facilities in my ward. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Beale:] Youth provision is, is a county council responsibility... not a city council responsibility although for your information Mr, without the... er zodiac youth centre grant in the ninety one, ninety two figures... er, two hundred and thirty nine thousand one hundred and sixty six pounds were put in... by the city council into that s, into that specific area in the Humberstone ward and the amount that was put in there in this financial year was approximately the same, but the reason being that there is no mar more money available is because hundreds of thousand of pounds were cut out of youth and community facilities that should have been provided by this city council by the Tory budget which this council approved last February. [speaker002:] Thank you. Would you ar... er next question then Mr any supplementary on those. [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, Chairman,w would the spokesman agree that the that the resources argument which she has just used is... is completely fallacious and would she rather expect [speaker002:] Mr [Setchfield:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mrs, this is Mrs would you refer to members by name please. [Setchfield:] Mrs I do apologise to Mrs Chairman. Would Mrs agree that the resources argument that she's just used is completely fallacious and would she not accept er that it's better to spend fifty thousand pounds [speaker001:] can you please be [Setchfield:] on providing youth facilities in Netherhall than it is for five hundred thousand pounds on the in Highfield. [speaker002:] We are dealing, with respect, we are dealing, I asked you to raise questions on the social services committee. [Setchfield:] I I was asking under two Chairman. [speaker001:] Sit down old chap [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker002:] If if you would like to reply, you don't have to reply Mrs it's up to you. [speaker001:] talking about Mr Chairman [speaker002:] Right, would you Mr will you,... Mr will you please... ask er, put forward any supplementary questions if you have them, on... the next item of the spokesman of the social services committee please. [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, no questions on my second set but I'm very grateful for the er spokesman for their reply. Erm, if I m [speaker002:] If there's no supplementary well that's it really [Setchfield:] If I may Chairman on the third set of questions... erm those are [speaker002:] which is? You're talking of..? [Setchfield:] the er, the young people in secure accommodation Chairman. Erm, under number one... erm, is the Chairman aware that the er current talk in Whitehall which has given out the contracts for er new secure accommodation units in various counties that the current talk in Whitehall is that because Leicestershire doesn't know its own mind because of the recent votes over secure accommodation that it's unlikely to get one in the present er round and isn't that a damning indictment erm of the Liberal and Labour parties in this county. [speaker002:] Mrs [speaker001:] It's Mr [speaker002:] That's right, Mr sorry [speaker001:] Mr [Beale:] I'm not entirely sure Chairman that Whitehall's ever made up its mind on anything [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Setchfield:] Erm, bearing in mind that Leicestershire currently I think er reserves two places for secure accommodation... and in the answers to my question, we have fifteen currently either needing or having secure accommodation with five being remanded because there is no place. Erm, would the er spokesman not agree that there is a crisis in secure accommodation in Leicestershire at the moment due entirely to the stance of the Labour and Liberal parties on this authority. [speaker001:] Mr [Beale:] The need for additional secure places that can be accessed by Leicestershire is not at issue,... what's still be investigated is how a regional service meeting varying types of needs can be provided... discussions are still taking place with Northamptonshire county council and into some other current secure unit provider authorities as to how best Leicestershire can work with other local authorities in the region towards this objective. Neither Whitehall,... nor government... nor this county council, nor the children we're talking about would welcome being used as a political football by Mr. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Dr, any supplementaries on your question? [Joranpucher:] Yes er to the for former question er Chairman. Er, what am I to tell the people in London and partic in particular er when they say that the government and the county council is letting them down? [speaker002:] Mr [Bury:] Er, Chairman... the, the only advice that I can give Dr on that point... is to say... that the county council is not letting them down... er... the funding for major road schemes is provided by central government and we make a contribution towards it but if central government do not give us permission to go ahead with the race road scheme in terms of a grant, then in fact it will not go ahead and in that situation they may be let down, that is their judgement and that should be reflected in the way they vote at parliamentary elections. [speaker002:] Mr, any supplementaries, thank you Mr. Mr [Bury:] Thank you Mr Chairman [speaker002:] any supplementaries [Willmott:] I have two supplementary questions. First one... concerning A. In view of the level of con concern expressed... on police funding, would the chairman of the Police authority agree that some f that some protection of Police funds locally and nationally may be necessary. [speaker002:] Mr [Howard:] Yes, thank you, thank you, er thank you Mr councillor... erm. Can I can I say that in my opinion... that the county council's current budgeting strategy... which effectively imposes a two percent efficiency saving which I might add... in figures come to something like one point five million... erm is, is of concern but what is of greater concern is the further possibility... of a four percent... er reduction which is being sought in blocks of three percent and one percent next year for ninety four ninety five... which is to the amount of two point eight million at the current prices... will in my opinion decimate the... present level of service provision in policing.... Erm. Community policing will be further marginalised... with priority going to intermediate response type of incidents... I am confident however that this council will make some... crucial and vitally important decisions during the next... er budget rounds and the importance of policing an inadequately funded service will be unanimously supported. Can I also add that representations to the Secretary of State for the Home Office... will be central... er component to secure those adequate resources with the Leicestershire Police erm, erm service needs. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr [Willmott:] Does the Chairman share my concern regarding the Home Secretary's proposals... containing the white paper on Police which will dramatically reduce local accountability of the Police service to the Leicestershire public. [speaker002:] Mr [Howard:] I'm grateful chair, once again for Mr on that er... second supplementary.... The real danger of course is... the forthcoming Police bill... the proposal which were instituted by the... present er Treasurer,... erm...... er the Chancellor... er and instituted further on by the present Home Secretary would lead to a... centrally appointed Police committee at least fifty percent and a centrally appointed chairman, paid by the Home Secretary much rather like the Leicestershire Health Authority and of course this will severely undermine the local democratic accountability of the Police service. Can I also add that... it will also instigate centrally determined policing policies, very much akin to... other government policies, particularly economic policies which have, as yet, done nothing to address the underlying causes of crime and... there are fears and I'm quoting here from the... er... the response made by the Association of Metropolitan... Authorities, the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils that it could lead to a national Police force. But what is important is that there is opposition er... Chairman at the national level which is set to continue and once again representations are being undertaken... er to be made to local Members of Parliament and to Members of the House of Lords. But it is of concern... and I do hope that in the next forthcoming... er house er when the the house sits in the forthcoming rounds, that they will be mindful of the representations which have been made nationally... and that the Police service and the proposals contained, particularly in the Police bill, will not be fully implemented in the way that they're currently proposed on the white paper today. [speaker002:] Could I point out to members that we did have er written replies to try and speed up the question process, could I ask members both in asking the question and especially in answering, not to make it another speech occasion because otherwise it destroys the whole purpose of having the written replies. Please try and keep questions and answers to the point please, thank you. Did you wish Mr to raise your, on the, in that, that concludes you does it Mr? Okay. Mr... you have a question. [Howard:] Chairman, yes. [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much, [] yes point taken but a vitally important issue and I'm very grateful once again that you have allowed this... as an emergency question... erm. My supplementary is will the Chairman of policy and resources committee make a statement to the county council to reassure... and inform the ethnic minority community... and the general public of Leicestershire of the need for tolerance and racial harmony... and reaffirm the county council's opposition... to all forms of racist dogma. Can I further ask will he join me to congratulate the Chief Constable in an unprecedented move... in which he... actually formed links and created a an environment of partnership as recently highlighted in the Leicester Mercury. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr.... If it is not an emergency question, you are in time Mr with your... question, in case anyone thinks that it was an emergency question was put down [speaker002:] It wasn't an emergency question. [speaker001:] It was not. [Willmott:] No it was, it was in the time limit. [speaker001:] I must say in that sense, thank you Mr for your... question, because it's an an issue that's conc should concern... every member of this authority. I would like the members of this authority to... to have a look at the reply... I make no apology for the length of the reply to Mr 's very important question. On erm what you have asked for Mr. I must say that I am happy to make that statement... and in view of some of the things that have been, that have appeared in the media recently... here's a statement that needs to be made... as for your your your ques, what the, the Chief Constable I welcome the statement and the actions of the... Chief Constable on this very concerning issue. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr Have you any supplementary? Yes sir, on the erm... first part erm... in in clarification if I might sir... the erm... question of er briefing the Chairman is in fact dealt with in paragraph forty seven of annex C of P P G twelve... although I'm grateful for information on paragraph forty eight, erm and it says amongst other things... that er there shall be a briefing and that briefing, the contents of that briefing shall be made public... can I press the er... spokesman for the environment committee to tell us... er... why in fact that wasn't done... and whether he thinks there can be prop proper public debate... if it isn't done. Sorry about that. Carry on Mr [Bury:] It is my understanding from the reply... there's a fairly clear statement there that that was done... erm... I indeed have a copy of the principal briefing paper which the Director prepared for the panel, Chairman... it outlined the background to the structure plan review, it referred to the previously approved... structure plans, copies of which were appended to the... briefing paper. It referred to the regional strategy which is currently out for... consultation but was an emerging document and copies of that were again... appended... to the briefing paper... it outlined the county council's procedures which were followed in progress in the structure plan... it outlined a programme establishing the weight of opinion of objectors... it indicated our process in preparing policy amendments to be put to the panel... and all those matters were made public... It also requested the panel's view on the role of county council members at the enquiry in public the responses to that were not made public and were in fact a question which was clearly put to the panel. The paper also discussed erm the proposed topics for discussion at the enquiry in public it explained where the county council's... er relevant policies would be found in the extra electory memorandum... it outlined the key objections and the proposed participants for each topic.... The first two of those were also included were made public, they are in the issue's papers... it did not... make... public... the county council's proposal as to who should be participants for each topic... since those were matters for the... the panel er to to ma take a view of... and I understood er from er... the question... er the answer to the question... that it had been made clear that er the information had been made public... except as always Chairman,... er our legal office's of the council always like that caveat that in case anything had been missed out... I had just in fact suggested that perhaps not everything had been made public... so... I anticipated a possible supplementary question from Mr. [speaker002:] Thank you. That concludes the questions and answers [speaker001:] No it doesn't sir [LAUGHTER] Clarification The second question I have... with your permission sir. [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm... should the erm... that, given that er, sorry, that the er, er O P C S in fact erm... er after every census makes er guesses about its accuracy... erm... would erm the spokesman, is the spokesman aware that in fact O P C S has said that a... fair... erm... representation of the intercensal increase in population in Leicestershire... er between nineteen eighty one and nineteen ninety one is in fact fifteen thousand people and doesn't he feel that to provide for fifty three thousand in the structure plan is a little over the top? Mr [Bury:] Mr makes... there was an under, enumeration of figures and that has been made clear in the reply... the reply is quite clear about the basis on which the structure plan... is being promulgated and the... total projected total population in two thousand and six... regards the historical data, that should be taken, as far as I'm concerned, as matters of fact, will of course not be absolutely accurate... and as far as projected data is concerned all that we can do... any of us can do... is to try and make the best estimates possible and I am satisfied that our officers will have done that. I hope I've understood the supplementary question correctly, if I've not I apologise to Mr... but we are dealing in a technical area. Thank you. [speaker002:] I have decided to exercise my discretion under standing order five so that agenda item nine B, notice of motion by Mr on fox-hunting to be taken now. In addition to the many personal representation made to members of the council on the subject of fox hunting on county council land, the county secretary has now received a total of two hundred and six written representations... nearly as many as me. Of these a hundred and sixty eight contain expressions of opposition to fox hunting and thirty eight contain either expressions of support for fox hunting or that the county council should not be considering the matter for one reason or another. I have also had passed to me a petition from Mr containing four thousand five hundred signatures from the... national anti-hunt petition... er, there is a doubt of the petition or a letter from the tenant farmers but er, there is representation from them. Erm, Mr would you move the motion please. [Taylor:] Thank you Chair, erm... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] In moving the motion this time I'm not going to be very passionate like I normally am on on subjects in this council chamber... I'm I'm actually gonna try and keep, I'm actually going to try and keep politics down to a low level... and er... because I believe there conscience on all sides of this chamber. We have not got a monopoly on conscience... I know that certain Liberals... have debated this subject and as th the passions been raised in their group meetings. I know also that some Conservatives that feel that perhaps what I've laid before you this afternoon... has some credence. The reason I did this, because some... sixteen months ago, like over a year ago we brought it and lost it, it wasn't a victory for anybody or er or er a real loss for anyone because... it was lost by one vote. By wrecking a motion at the time,... rightly or wrongly placed... and once again I see this afternoon we've got a similar motion on the table. What I want to do though is is kind of thank a few people for start off. anti-hunt people, the League of Cruel Sports and all sorts of other organisations that have actually asked their members not to be here today, not to cause a problem, not to divert attention from the real issues in the debate er er and cause a crisis outside for all the press and the media to latch on to, that's not what they were about. I respect the fact the Hunt are here, er I respect the fact the literature that they've sent us, from all sides of the fence, from the League Against Cruel Sports, the hunting fraternity, it's been very helpful. It hasn't changed my view. I also want to put right... it, er the facts that have been presented to me, that it's an urban erm view, it's city people... making a... er, their will, imposing their will on country folk, on the practices of country folk. I am not a city person and have never lived in a city in my life... I represent a rural area, a hunting area, a hunting area erm I believe the terrier men from the some of them live in my area.... I can tell you this... the general public... have sent me literally hundreds of cards... I have had well wishing cards, I've also had some letters from the opposition, some of them, to be quite honest, have been disgraceful. Some of them have... asked me about my parentage, some of them have asked me whether or not I am tinkering with the laws of God. I will extract those to one side and say they not really followers of the hunt, they are probably... some weird faction that latch onto these type of things... during erm... these issues. It's a shame also that we have to fill the council chamber on such a debate. It's a pity that the general public don't come into this chamber... on, on a normal debate, about education, about children's needs, about social services, the very things that I've [speaker001:] Here, here, [clapping] [Taylor:] been attacked over the last few months... of not wasting time on the hunt... I spend an awful lot of time relieving heavy goods traffic in my area, concerned totally about the environment, about mineral extraction... quarries, mining, open cast, things of that calibre. This is one debate, one small debate, hopefully put to bed within an hour with a decent result. The motion itself... is a compromise... some on my side have said it's too much of a compromise... they've said you're tr trying to be all things to all people. What I have done is hopefully brought together... a er a view of people, a clash of personalities and a way forward. I want to answer the questions on jobs.... Those jobs can be protected, I know the hunting fraternity say they don't want to drag hunt. We set standards, standards evolve... we are coming to the stage now in nineteen ninety three... the standards that are being set... are changing and at the end of the day the hunt have got to come along with us. The gauntlet was down, the opportunity to talk to... arrange a forum, to come together, land owners, local authorities, the hunt's people, er the interested parties, to come together and look for a decent way of hunting... and that way is probably drag hunting and we're giving you a golden opportunity... to start that route. It's gotta start somewhere, there's a motion, a tide of feeling going across the country on council from council, it won't be long before people like me are M P's and others around you that are M P's are in the and fellow members that will be down in Whitehall and eventually will put you to bed, if you bury your head in the sand and at the end of the day I'm afraid the country is going to knock it off. The general public are saying... no. Time has come for a change. I want to thank also er the different organisations, cos you made an absolute profit for the G P O, er erm British Telecom, they must have... actually made a bomb in Leicestershire over the last few days. I thank the League Against Cruel Sports for their literature. Very, very informative. I also thank the hunting fraternity for their... documentary they sent me on hunting the facts. But I would like to point out... in this video, and on the... brochure that goes with it, actually says... the rest of the field are there to follow on horseback... or on foot or by car, very few people indeed actually witness the death of a fox. The followers are there for a day out in the countryside, the opportunity to ride or to walk freely over private property... with the consent of the landowner. I agree, sometimes I can tell you I have witnessed a hunt and on a cold, frosty morning... when er about forty or fifty horses are thundering across the ploughed field, it's enough to p the power of that sight is enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up... that's not what we are against... the hunter that came to me and says Eh up lad, I won't go drag hunting because I'm sixty years old, I've done it all my life... and I like the ride, I like to be there... I never see a fox killed... that's fact, it's in the video. So why is it important that the kill has to continue. You can continue your sport... the decent side of the sport without the need for the kill... and and we will encourage, my motion actually encourages that, encourages the fox hunting fraternity to look at a way forward, come forward, talk to us. If you're willing to go down the route to drag hunting... I am willing to support... any hunt that wants to go down that route and I am sure this authority would. We can negotiate access to our land... and we will be only too pleased to do so... but whilst you are killing the fox er and at the end of the day, it is not on. I've also said to certain factions of the... er direct action groups... this is the unacceptable face of protest. Let's put that side of the protest to bed.... If you change now, Leicestershire has a golden opportunity, we are proud of the fox, we are proud of the fox in Leicestershire, our football team, the Foxes,... our, our fox cubs... our Police emblem, it isn't the hunters, we don't support the hunters... at Leicester's Street, we support the foxes and at the end of the day I think there is room... for the hunting fraternity to stay as part of the pageantry in Leicestershire. When we get to the jobs... erm... side of it... the jobs I I I'm accused outside this afternoon... of of putting... in jeopardy one thousand something jobs... erm, this authority got rid of seven hundred jobs, education jobs... er only a few months ago... and there's many more, something on the region of two thousand jobs will be lost in this authority without a protest. without protest from a parent, without a protest from a hunter... without a protest from er a anyone else, that is a shame, because I tell you what, if you go drag hunting, you can keep the jobs... the people are still going to have to shoe the horses... traders and people like that are still going to have to produce the carriages to take the horses with them and the only people... job jobs are in jeopardy are not the kennel staff... it's the terrier men... and to be quite honest, ladies and gentlemen, it's the terrier men who have actually ruined your sport, cos of what they get up to in nineteen ninety three is a disgust... and at the end of the day your P R has been absolutely wrong... and I hope this afternoon... that... Conservatives and Liberals can join with us and I've got to thank a certain Liberal because he's... he's put his head on the block on several occasions on this when we stood on the platform as individuals, not as... politicians, as individuals on this and I think that this afternoon... we've got a way forward, we can say to the hunt, come and talk... you change, we'll give you access. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Have we a seconder. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Thank you. Did you wish to move an amendment? Thank you sir. Can I erm,... er move the amendment that is in... my name.... [cough] This is fact is a debate about personal freedom... the freedom of our tenants to choose the quite legal activities... that take place on their farms... for whatever we... may think about the merits and de-merits of... angling or shooting... fox hunting, these are activities that Parliament has decided are permissible.... Chairman, I believe that this is just the sort of motion... that can only bring local government into disrepute... It's an abuse of power... the council holds lands in the county farms estate... for purposes set out in the nineteen sixty agriculture act. It doesn't hold land... in order to allow ideologues to impose their views on our tenants... and impose it through a form of nineteenth century landlordism.... If... Mr... doesn't like field sports... he should seek, try to seek... to persuade Parliament to ban it... he'll have an excellent opportunity because he'll, he's told us... that he'll be an MP shortly... that's what's happening, that's what's happened... in the case of cock fighting and badger baiting... it hasn't happened in the case of fox hunting... and Mr shouldn't abuse his position as a councillor to dictate to the council's tenants in the way that he proposes. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] As well as being the sort of motion that brings local government into disrepute, I also believe... that this is the sort of motion that, that displays a lack of tolerance that should concern us all.... This county council has recognised that in Leicestershire... we live in a society.... Labour members have been at the forefront in demanding... that ethnic communities be free to keep their traditions and cultures... yet here we are... Labour members trying to prevent countrymen... pursuing traditional country sports that have been followed by our forefathers for centuries.... I cannot see the consistency. [Taylor:] Must be your forefathers, not mine. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes,w well you said it... And I think we are entitled to ask Mr whether he has actually... asked the tenants for their views. [Taylor:] Yes. yes [speaker002:] Has he asked them how this initiative could... affect their livelihood. [Taylor:] Yes. [speaker002:] Does he even care. [Taylor:] Yes, he does. [speaker002:] And what did they say, I can tell you what they said, because I happen to have a petition here, signed by... a hundred and four county council tenants out of the hundred and six that we have. [speaker001:] Oh well done. [speaker002:] And I will read it [reading]... as farm tenants of Leicestershire county council... we wish to retain the freedom to make the decision ourselves... as to whether fox hunting with hounds takes place on our land.... We do not consider... drag hunting to be an alternative. [] [speaker001:] Well done. [speaker002:] At our last meeting... we discussed the running of a community centre in the middle of Leicester. We'll be discussing it this afternoon... and... Labour members... told us... and no doubt they'll tell us again... that the users of the centre have a democratic right to be consulted about how it was run... Don't tenant farmers... have the right to be consulted?... Where are their democratic rights... Is this the new, I quote, the new era of democratic rights about which was talking yesterday? [speaker001:] One man, one vote. [speaker002:] Chairman. This is... a vindictive and intolerant motion... it sets an unfortunate precedent... and in this debate about freedom we should support the rights of our tenants to choose. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Have we a seconder. [speaker001:] Served by [speaker002:] Right, at present I have fifteen speakers, plus... the two seconders who have reserved the, their right. We start off with Mr. [Willmott:] Thank you... Chairman. I... rise to support the motion moved in Mr name and I have always been... opposed to fox hunting full stop. Hunting and all cruel sports which are totally... anachronistic in... present day society. But I wish to relate to the council a particular episode, which I hope... will convey something to those people who are perhaps still wavering... erm, and whilst we all have principle stands on issues... it behoves us as members... to consider... the views of our constituents and the sorts of things that take place... in our wards. And I... remind this council of something I said a few years ago... of an incident, incident concerning the Atherstone hunt... in my ward... where the hounds attacked... the dogs... of, a couple of dogs of a constituent of mine... in his back garden... totally uncontrolled, they were running amuck... right across land in Ellistown this is... nothing the hunt could do... nothing the hunt tried to do... they were too busy off... still dashing ahead... chasing the fox or what they thought was a fox.... Meanwhile the owner... the person who lived a small terraced property, whose garden backs onto the fields... tried to get the hounds... several dozen hounds off these two dogs who were being savaged to death... and he had a heart attack... in the process, Chairman... and was hospitalized for several weeks... That Chairman... is the effect of the hunt on one of my... constituents... whose job it is... for me... to defend... the rights that I was elected here to defend the rights of my constituents, not to be harassed in this manner.... Of course he was released from hospital and he recovered... and of course we... we, he, we protested... to the hunt... and... they had the audacity to off to offer him... some fifty pounds compensation, which was a adding insult... to injury.... So that's how I can speak from direct experience. I'd also like to say that I've received some twenty nine... representations from constituents in my ward... all of whom live in my ward... who are opposed to fox hunting and have asked me today to vote to ban... fox hunting on our land... and I've only received two representations from official bodies... the video and, and a representation from the British Field Sports... Association... erm, in favour of fox hunting.... So I think it's time that er... we dragged this county council... into... this century... and not into the century, or the centuries of Mr 's forefathers. And that we actually op adopted a b a modern... sensible... er, reasonable attitude towards all living creatures... and that we do today... vote to ban... fox hunting... it is anachronistic as I said earlier, it is not necessary... it actually causes harm, not only does it cause harm to foxes, but at least in one case, which is sufficient for me... to continue my... support for the ban... damage to... the people... in my area. I don't want to rehearse the arguments, I'm sure other members will put all the other arguments about cruelty, about the destruction of land... and so on. But I'll finish Chairman, by saying that also I've received complaints from er, a tenant farmer, not one of our tenant farmers, but a p a person who farms... who actually has problems... because of the pressure that that farmer is under to allow the hunt... to go across their land... because they're surrounded by... by farmers who do allow them. They don't wish it to happen, but it becomes an impossibility... almost for them to stand up to their rights, and Mr talks about rights... and no rights is in abstract... and we all know how difficult it is... then to stand up as a minority when you're surrounded by that majority, but I've had personal representations [speaker001:] They have the right to choose. [Willmott:] From them. They do not have the right to choose because they, they virtually, the the hunt has always ignored... their wishes. They have to buy and sell... their produce in that community... and there are restrictions operating on that. So I think we must... today... level out... the rules on this and we must speak for what is the majority of opinion in this country, by every single opinion poll that's been conducted, and that is Chairman to vote to ban fox hunting on our land. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr. [Taylor:] Thank you Chairman. Er, Mr said this is a debate about personal freedom. Actually... it is a debate about personal conscience... Last night I had one of those phone calls that we've all been getting... erm the guy on the other end apologised for... not being one of my constituents erm, I said it probably wasn't his fault. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] He went on to said he wanted to talk about the hunting debate, erm, it occurred to me to wonder why they couldn't find anyone in Stonygate in favour of hunting, I mean perhaps there aren't any people in Stonygate in favour of hunting. I certainly have not received any communication... from any individual in my ward... in favour of hunting. I've received a number against. He asked me whether I was a country person... I asked what the qualifications were... he said country born and bred, well... I was born in Liverpool... spent my childhood and early adolescence in rural Nottinghamshire, moved to Highfields, emigrated to the West Indies... and now live in sub rural Blavey so I don't know whether I qualify as a country person or not, but I'd like to bet... that I've milked more cows by hand than he has... if that's any qualification. The conversation ranged widely through... wildlife management, the history of the landscape and of hunting... and he was on very shaky ground there I can tell you... control of pests, he likened a farmer... killing a rat with a dog, to the whole panoply of fox hunting.... As this conversation continued over an extended period, I was waiting to go out to dinner, erm it became apparent that he hadn't understood my position... it was apparent again, outside earlier today, that people do not understand the position that people like me take. I tried to make it clear at an early stage... my petition is a simple, straightforward one... not involved with wildlife management,... history or anything else like that, I simply believe that killing animals for fun is morally wrong.... Last Saturday night Channel four show showed Sex, lies and videotape... well, we got the lies and the video tape, I'd like to know what happened to the sex. People keep writing letters to the Mercury saying... how can we afford to spend time and money debating this, well they can afford the time and the money employing out of work newsreaders to produce videos and writers and photographers to produce their glossy magazines, their glossy leaflets... I didn't need the R S P C A or the League... to tell me that er, the fox photo, this fox photo was a fake, I mean that's obvious to anybody... I didn't need them to tell me that the video was suspect, that too is obvious. Perhaps the most interesting thing about this video tape is the involvement of loony... er, who's espoused every cause known to human kind.... Whether they had any merit or not.... Most recent of course, is euthanasia... it doesn't draw the line at killing foxes... I had this terrible vision in the early hours this morning,... of Ron closing all our elderly persons' homes, pushing all the old people out onto the street and the hunt with at its head hunting them down the countryside. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] Look, it's alright to have a bit of fun with this, but the matter is deadly serious... and I use the word deadly... advisedly.... What it comes down to is... do we, or do we not approve of killing animals for fun... do we approve of allowing a pack of dogs to hunt an animal to its death.... If the answer's no we do not approve... then it's up to us, the onus is on us to do whatever we can, wherever we have any control to prevent it happening. Let us today... do what our consciences demand and vote to stop this cruelty in just one small corner of this county. [speaker002:] Mr [Bury:] Thank you Chair. I will be voting for the motion and I will be voting against the amendment.... I'd like to start before I explain that, just to refer to a few comments... that Mr made. Mr made a comment about... Moats and Highfield.... I find this a little strange since he was quite happy to support us... when my colleague and I said that there was a greater good to be considered and that people had issues that had to be raised in that area above and beyond... the local community. So we did suggest and I did believe your party to support... erm, a process where we did consult with local people but we also took other factors into consideration. So I hope today you will take wider factors into consideration as well. The other one, the other one that I find interesting is I hope Mr will take his comments back to John, because John 's quite happy, I applaud him for once, it's about the only thing I do applaud John for,... erm, but John 's quite happy to turn round to Norway and say forget your centuries old traditions of killing whales. Killing whales is not a thing that you should go round doing... and... and yet John 's quite happy to do that and I support John in in that approach.... I'd like to address the reasons why I will be voting for this motion today.... It's often put that hunting... is... good for the countryside... that it's about controlling foxes... the scientific evidence rather puts that to pay... the scientific evidence certainly indicates that fox hunting makes very little difference to control of foxes in the countryside and there is some evidence to suggest that fox hunting actually encourages more foxes to breed and that we end up with more foxes, so it seems to be self defeating in that respect. There is of course the argument about the maintenance of the countryside and that the countryside only looks the way it does, because of the fox hunting. I think there are a lot of other factors that affect the countryside as we all well know. The way we farm. The nature of erm, subsidies from Europe and all others, other factors. I think this argument's about the benefit of the countryside is somewhat debatable... to say the least... And these arguments that are put about why we shouldn't ban fox hunts because of all the benefits and the tradition... are exactly the same arguments that were put about otters and about badgers... and about other... sports that we have, that we no longer consider satisfactory... and have opposed. From my point of view, one of the most powerful arguments that needs to be addressed is the argument about individual freedom... and this is always important to me... about, if you're going to take an action that limits somebody's freedom, you damn well have to have a good reason for it.... There is no legislation to ban fox hunting yet.... I'm quite sure that it will not be long before we see... that happen. What we do have... and have had for a long time in this country is an acceptance within our law and an acceptance within our definitions of freedom that there are responsibilities with freedom... and those responsibilities in this particular case, we have long accepted the argument in this country, maybe not as much as... erm, well more in fact than some of our colleagues abroad and maybe they could learn from us from this, but it is not acceptable... to have the freedom to be unnecessarily cruel... and in fox hunting we have a sport that is unnecessarily cruel, there are ways in which you can deal with rogue foxes, there are ways in which you can actually ensure that the fox community does not destroy the whole, er farming countryside. But fox hunting doesn't address that. Fox hunting... falls purely and simply on the side of unnecessary cruelty. [speaker001:] Freedom, because there is not the freedom here. I might suggest the other point, now I actually represent a city ward so I'm sure I'll hear the baying of the hounds that say why am I getting up and speaking. Well actually... people in my area do have a concern about this, also though... I was brought up... in my teens at least within a rural area... and I know full well... that to hold certain views... even those of the majority within rural areas, are not necessarily easily expressed... and I have today been told of yet another example... of this being the case. Where somebody goes to a public meeting... and doesn't say Near time. anything but just listens... and what happens, what happens to that, the vets... that person's husband's livelihood is threatened, why are they threatened?... They are threatened because the hunt turns round and uses its power over its tenants to force people to withdraw their, their. Time. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you. When. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] I, I said near time, I advising people it's nearly time, when it is time they will most certainly know and emphatically it's time. So when the first warning, it's near time. Thank you. Next speaker Mr. [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, I want to... er support er the amendment... moved by er, erm, Mr and er... erm I want to oppose the motion... erm... since people are... tending to describe their, their background... in respect of fox hunting.... May I say that er, I've lived for... nearly thirty years... er, in Oakham... which is in the er, in the centre of er fox hunting country.... I've er, thank you, I've never seen a fox hunt... erm... I've er... I think once... er, once... I got along to Cutts Close where the Boxing Day meet occurs... and I can well accept that this Boxing Day meet... draws a larger crowd of people from Oakham than any other activity through the year. So... I don't speak really as a committed fox hunt or anti fox hunter... er... I speak erm, [sigh]... after a consideration of the matter... er that... that what have at issue here... is er, the, the right of the tenant.... [clears throat] If a man is paying his rent to his landlord he surely has the right to use er the land he is paying for... and... in the, in that matter of using it, surely is included the, the sporting right.... erm.... Hunting, let me remind those on the other side here, is still a lawful activity... it's no good saying, ah, well Parliament's gonna pass an act against it soon.... It may well pass an act against it soon, it may well be that a lot of people from over there will get elected and you'll get your bill, but then again it may not. [speaker001:] Yes, yes [Setchfield:] Surely, in this country we have to obey the laws that are there, not the laws that are going some day to be passed. [speaker001:] Sunday trading [Setchfield:] Tenants have, let me, let's stick with the motion shall we. The tenant... has surely a right to carry out this lawful activity.... Drag hunting's been mentioned from the tenant's point of view... er, drag hunting doesn't control the fox and one of the reasons why... the er, tenant er, allows fox hunting... is that the, the fox is controlled by it. It's er,... surely wishful thinking to assume that... sweep away fox hunting, they're all gonna go drag hunting and all those jobs' ll be saved.... That's a fairly tenuous er... sort of platform to get rid of those er hunting jobs and I'd've thought that er, a party whose leader Mr saw him, was it yesterday?,... proclaiming the importance of er protecting employment and combating unemployment. Well surely some of that might filter down to this chamber. Let's not take chances er unnecessarily... with the right, er wi with the e employment... er of those in, in the hunting industry as it were. I don't think er Chairman, this, this county council is, is competent... to do away with hunting. That, that I, I say is... reserved for Parliament.... er,... Can I enter a plea for tolerance, if... in a democracy it's very easy to get steamed up about things you don't like, things you find disgusting and revolting... but if everyone is going to come forward, have banned the activity they don't like then we're going to live, it may be a democracy, but it's going to be a narrowed, er and intolerant society in which we live.... Finally er, Chairman.... My history books told me about those wicked aristocrats of the nineteenth century, they used their position as landlords... to force their tenants... to, to vote in a certain way, to force their tenants in other words to take up a particular position on a matter of controversy. [speaker002:] Near time. [Setchfield:] I'm interested, thank you, I'm interested to notice that this nineteenth century attitude is being repeated now by er, our friends over there in the Labour party, erm and I must say, that really confirm what I've always thought that a lot of their attitudes and their mental furniture do in fact belong to that century. Er, Chairman I'd like to er, erm, oppose the motion and support the amendment. [speaker001:] Here, here. [clapping] [speaker002:] Mr [Beale:] Thank you Chair. I would like to support the motion put... in the name of Mr and I would like to speak against the amendment.... I've heard... what's Mr has to say. [speaker001:] It was good. [Beale:] Yes, very good.... You may think it's a fun having a blood game on your hand, you may think that... your class used to also enjoy slavery two hundred years ago. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Here, here, [clapping] [Beale:] Listen, listen... so you may have a right to defend at any cost which you think is privileged society... the fact of the matter is... people out there... I received twenty seven letters in support against the fox hunting... I did not receive a single letter... asking me to support the fox hunting. Always against fox hunting, why is that? And it wasn't even from my constituency it was widely from the Leicestershire... and coming back to our, our friend there... Doctor er, I don't know what was the name there... when he mentioned about... what's the name? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Beale:] It it's er really put me off the track there, I'm sorry I. [speaker002:] You're losing time. [Beale:] I was coming back to... the fox hunting here, when it's mentioned [cough] sorry about that Chair. Men,men, mentioned here by our friend, that Leicestershire has got no business to discuss about fox hunting, we are not elusive, there are other county councils who have banned fox hunting on their land, so do not make... this as a sacrosanct and... or something that Leicestershire are doing, they are not doing first, there are so many other county councils in this country and for your information, I was listening to radio four few days ago, even in Pakistan, a third world country, is banning hunting in their country, we should be ashamed of ourselves here to discuss, I agree with Councillor when the discussion start and he said... move for the ward, because the logical thing was to move for the wards rather than discuss, if we all believe that this is... horrible, acrimonious and abhorrent in today's day and age, as the slavery was abhorred two hundred years ago. So I move that we support the motion and speak against amendment. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr [Beale:] Thank you er. Can I first of all congratulate my colleague Graham, Graham on his measured speech, he's certainly given us many things to, to think about and things that should be investigated. Can I also say really I agree with Martin... when he said... erm, and has been saying for at least six months... that surely we have more important things to, to talk about than, than this... and I'm sorry for Martin that he had to erm, give in really and put this... I was the movement of the amendment in January ninety two... erm,... which confirmed that the rights of tenants and old occupiers of land in county council ownership to... er allow or stop fox hunting over land in their care. That was successful there... er, er on that occasion... and er of course I hope it, it will be successful again this afternoon. At that time, we, we received a petition from the tenants... erm very much along the lines of the one that erm... erm, er Mr has read out, at that time there was a petition from a hundred and eight county council tenants... and one hundred and five of them in fact signed it and they, they asked for it to be allowed to keep the erm... to have the freedom to decide whether or not hunting takes place. I think erm... it is worth saying Chairman, it hasn't been mentioned yet, er that in fact we're talking about the... the tenant farmers and their livelihood. Most of the tenant farmers i in this county I believe are dairy farmers... and in fact they have their life savings tied up in their stock.... They, they know what they have to do to protect that stock, to protect their life's interests and they, and they know they don't need to be told really by any officer here who are not in that... not, not in that game, what they have to do... that's what they're asking us to do and they certainly asked us to do that... on the erm, on the tour of county farms that we had only, only a few weeks ago. I think it's also worth just bearing in mind that we're talking about... only one percent... of the erm... of the farmed land... i in this county, we're not talking about banning hunting in in er in Leicestershire,... we're talking about what we're saying on one percent... there are tens of thousand of fields... in in this county... nothing can change overnight, even if this er motion goes through because the tenants will still have the rights... to decide, it's only when you actually start getting to new tenancy agreements that you will be in a position if you wish,... to start to change things and therefore... I suppose at the end of erm, at the end of five years you might have a hundred or two hundred fields on which this ban will apply... but you will still have tens of thousand of fields on which the, the hunt will still be, the hunts in this county will still be free to, erm, to operate. I think we have to try and keep this in in proportion, we are really into a... we are really into a gesture here... an important gesture possibly, but nothing is going to change overnight and in fact very little will happen erm, for years, for years to come.... I, I, do not understand Chairman that reading this motion, I've been trying to think about it, how on earth this is going to be... monitored. How on earth are you going to... how on earth are you going to put a... a sign on certain fields that the hunt shall not pass? Are you going to say... hunters will be prosecuted or something?... Or are you going to electrify the, these fields?... Are you going to have mounted policemen following the hunt round to ensure that they only steer their course along certain ways?... Are you going to have stationary policemen guarding fields to ensure that only the fox can enter and not the, and not the hounds?... Are you going to have countywide monitoring?... Are we going to have... er, erm, are we going to have some kind of reporting system, so that if a hunt actually enters erm, one of our fields, we're going to start denouncing tenants and have them hauled up in front of a disciplinary committee?. There are all kinds of questions that this matter raises in my mind which... haven't been addressed.... I only repeat what I said last time Chairman that if the, that if people do not understand the management of the countryside, that they leave it well alone. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker002:] Mr. [Beale:] Thank you Mr Chairman. In all probability not a single fox will live or die as a consequence of any vote we take this afternoon. As Mr pointed out in outline,... our county estate... of some eight thousand acres of which only three quarters or roughly six thousand acres is suitable for hunting, is less than one percent of the county's acreage of six hundred and fifty thousand. If hunting were banned on all of that it would only have a small marginal effect... but we can as Mr said only ban hunting on land we both own and control, land in hand, that actually totals a hundred and fifty eight acres, slightly smaller than Victoria Park... but that includes road, bridleways, land with no access, S S S Is, Sites of Special Scientific Interest, land awaiting disposal... the land capable of being hunted and in hand totals fifty two acres... about as much of Victoria Park as I can see from my front window. If you have the country parks and already there is no hunting on those parts open to the public... there's just about another hundred acres, that's the Victoria Park or thereabouts in total.... But that's not the end of it... the Director of Property has very kindly plotted where this land is... and I will show you the plan, the yellow spots are the land in hand. If the map of Leicestershire were a face it would have a few small pimples on its chin and they would take fifty years to come to a head. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Beale:] If you draw a line from Loughborough down the A six, through the city of Leicester and on to Market Harborough... to the east of that line, in that part of the county where most of the hunting takes place, there is one small piece of land, less than one acre, somewhere near Thorpe Satchfield which we actually control.... As I said, it would take fifty years before any decision we reach here, even made an impression on the one percent of land we do own. So, those who do not support hunting will do nothing practical to protect foxes, if they vote for this motion today... in that respect it is and I suggest the people who move it know that it is, nothing but sanctimonious twaddle.... They would be voting to divert attention from the one place where the merits or otherwise of fox hunting should be decided and considered... amongst M Ps, you will note amongst MPs not by government, this is a matter for a free vote of conscience. About the only decent argument I've heard on this, I have to say that because it was my daughter who advanced it, about the only decent argument I have heard is the one about badger baiting... where she said to me... but badger baiting is not allowed on your land and that is the point precisely that Mr made, it is not allowed because that is the law of the land and that is where decisions about... the permission or otherwise of fox hunting should be made. This is an issue of individual conscience of M Ps.... Whatever is happening elsewhere... there is not today, there is no one man one, one man one vote here. We can all watch for the Labour block vote at the end of this debate... as a matter of principle, I could never vote in support of the Labour whip.... So this debate is not about saving foxes, it will achieve nothing for animal welfare... it is not about the merits or otherwise of fox hunting, from which it diverts attention, it is about the county council seeking to make hollow gestures against their tenants' rights.... Gestures which are not within the normal scope of the private landlord, gestures of a political kind that could be a dangerous precedence for other political... and possibly improper objectives in the future. That is why I will support the amendment and if that fails [speaker002:] Near time. [Beale:] I shall play no further part in this debate... which should not be taking place. It can have no practical effect... and will only divert attention from where it should be pressed by those who feel strongly about it. I do hope Mr Chairman that those members who oppose fox hunting will feel that they should do the same. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr. [Joranpucher:] Thank you Chair. Erm... first of all I would like to make the point that er... it's typical of our friends over this side to arrange an ethic dimension when they were er opposing their amendment, it confuses the issue, it is racist and shouldn't occur. As a Labour councillor of a rural part of Leicestershire, a very beautiful po part of rural Leicestershire... erm... I've taken a straw poll amongst my farming friends... and er when I talk about fox hunting... they er... roll and shrug their shoulders, there's no problem and if fox hunting is er... part of the culling process, they don't have a problem. They don't have a problem at all it doesn't seem to... er be part of their daily lives... er, that said I do have a farmer of my acquaintance, when I say my acquaintance he happens to be my son-in-law. He er, is a sheep farmer... and er, two or three years ago the Atherstone passed through his land and er... ran amuck amongst his flock and he lost actually three in lamb ewes who drowned in a local river.... At the same time the hunt passed further on and his wife, my daughter,... er had two horses which bolted in a field and leapt the farm gate and er, took off and were caught two miles away. That's the other side of fox hunting, which I think we don't hear. When they complained to the hunt... er, the Master brought er a leg of pork round, not a leg of lamb I might add, a leg of pork... to er, appease them... er... one other point, ooh yeah, there was, is one other point actually, when my daughter challenged the hunt... she was appalled by the arrogance... of these pink coated... hooray Henrys... who totally ignored her plight... and er just carried on with whatever they wished to do. One other point Mr Chair, if I could crave your indulgence... you will er, I think you all know that Leicester City Football Club are playing this evening at Middlesbrough. [speaker002:] I hope you'll soon be done. [Joranpucher:] and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Joranpucher:] that, that, as a result of that we could be, Leicester City could be at the top of the first division, I know the Chairman follows the Philbert Street Foxes, I would hope that this chamber will support the Leicestershire foxes when it's time to take our vote. [speaker002:] Thank you. Mr. Er, Mr Chairman, I'd like to make some observations.... I'd like to make the observations because I'm of the opinion that most members came into this... chamber this afternoon with their minds completely and utterly made... up... and there is very little that we can do in this chamber... this afternoon to change people's minds.... So they are observations... and it is my feeling that this motion has taken on... significantly more importance... than its content... or indeed its effect.... I only wish... and I mean this very sincerely... I only wish we could spend as much time... and as often as is spent discussing fox hunting... on the county's homeless, on abused children, on the handicapped, on the increasing crime and on unemployment... and I only wish that the media and the public and even members of this council would take as much notice of that as they do about this debate on fox hunting. I am also concerned that after this debate there will be no winners... not even the fox, for it will be killed... it will be killed in some way or another... and the feelings that are left between the two differing sides... will harbour grudges and resentment for many months to come... and I'd like to also... bearing in mind the comments that were made by Councillor... ask how committed... the people who have proposed this mo motion are against barbaric sport.... I regard barbaric sport, not only perhaps as fox hunting but also such things as boxing, where two people, two individuals... do their best to hit the life out of the other and it is watched by thousands of people. Now the Labour party control the city council, may I say this, that if your feelings are against barbaric sport as much as that, why don't you use your contr, your controlling power on the city council... and then ban boxing in all the city establishments, then you will show me that you mean what you are saying and that you are not just using the present position of this council for a political measure and political gain... and I'd like to also ask what this has cost the council... what this has cost... could be thousands. The very meeting itself is thousands of pounds, the time we have spent on it is thousands of pounds. Many times in this council when we've been discussing more important points, when we've been discussing the needs of people who have real needs, we have not been able to have our priority... we have not been able to have our priority because we could not afford it.... Can we afford not only the debate today... but can we afford it in another eighteen months? I don't think so... I believe... that the hunting fraternity is not blameless... and indeed the, all their arguments are not quite correct in every sense... but I firmly believe... that there are more important matters for this council to to debate and spend its time and money on. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] Chairman, the last speech was... really explaining what I want to get over... the fact that so many people want to talk on the issue and to complicate the issue. The debate on fox hunting has become unnecessarily complex... and that can only suit the pro hunters because the basic objections to hunting are obscured. The more complicated you make the issues, the more the basic objections become obscured. The fact is that any so called sport which involves the exhaustion, distress and eventual death of an animal has got to be obscene in the eyes of any human being. The county council has not got the power to ban fox hunting... in total it can only ban it on the land which it owns or controls... and that's what that motion seeks to do today.... On the one hand we have the hunting fraternity... saying that because they rarely catch and kill foxes, some say a two to three percent efficiency rate, er that it's not cruel... yet on the other hand, they say that it's the most efficient and humane way to control the fox population. They can't have it both ways.... I urge members, Chairman, not to hide behind this shabby amendment but to vote according to their consciences and their beliefs and to vote according to the views of eighty percent of the population that we represent and I urge other members to be as brief. [speaker002:] Mrs [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Shabby amendment, come off it [speaker001:] Really shabby amendment, agree? [Setchfield:] No [speaker001:] Really shabby [speaker002:] Will you let the lady speak please, you've had your turn. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mrs would you like to speak. [Setchfield:] Thank you Chairman. Once again we meet to debate and vote on this highly emotive subject and it has always almost, it has already been apparent that it is very emotional.... Barely eighteen months ago after the last time, what are we doing?... I see my job as a county councillor as one of running the county council so that it delivers services to the people cost effectively and efficiently.... Not telling some of the people in Leicestershire how to run their lives.... Once again we see the Labour group in their true colours. Yes... red.... They are now the largest party in county hall but instead of, try [speaker001:] [clapping] [Setchfield:] It's no good congratulating yourself until you've actually achieved something... primarily, you are... address Chairman, instead of primarily addressing the issues of overspending on the education budget... and the future of the elderly persons' homes and also the securing of a secure unit... these are pushed into second place when the Labour group can see the opportunity of headline grabbing... and satisfying their overriding need to tell everyone how to live.... The country dwellers are saying leave us alone to run our own lives, after all when it comes to funding they are left to run their own lives anyway. Witness a paltry hundred thousand pounds for a new village hall, compared with the one million pounds on the Highfields Community Centre. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Setchfield:] I hate hunting. I hate angling... just because the fish doesn't scream it doesn't mean the hook didn't hurt when it was inserted and then taken out when the fish is thrown back into the water because it isn't big enough. People in the know say that the animal kingdom is cruel. But would, should we compound the issue by being cruel to the animal kingdom?... But what I hate above all... is this constant sanctimonious attitude of the socialists... that they think they know best and their continuous craving to create a nanny state. I cannot vote... for the banning of fox hunting on county council land... as I see this as another attempt to limit freedom of choice.... The county council tenant must be left to manage his business and land as he sees fit and this includes his individual conscious decision as to whether to allow fox hunting across his land.... Chairman, I support Mr 's amendment and finally I would like to say that there are foxes alive and well in suburban Bristol in my parent's garden. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] Mr. [Willmott:] Chairman, erm, as I understand it this afternoon is, is a free vote... and I, for that reason end there, I hope that persuade any waverers... er one way, erm, at the moment we've got agreements with tenants and it's up to them to decide what to do with their land. We don't inter interfere with that and I don't think we should either.... Those arrangements or agreements with, with us are within the law and that... they're between... consenting adults, I don't know what else they're gonna think of banning. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Willmott:] Erm, it's a matter of choice... a free choice within the present laws of this country... er, even more important perhaps than that, that it really is up to the hunts... to convince those farmers that the, that the farmers want them.... I do ask any of you that are wavering to support the amendment which leaves the tenants with the right to manage their holdings, how they like and not to interfere with those rights. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Joranpucher:] I will observe, Chairman, that there are reasonable and honourable and relatively well meaning people... who truly believe that they have a natural right to hunt down foxes with dogs indeed to call the dogs hounds... and believe that nobody has the right to interfere with their pleasures... er,i in press they would no doubt speak of the right of free born Englishmen to do what they like... but I'd like them to consider Chairman,... views... of what it is right and proper for human beings to do have changed, as readers of John 's diaries will recall, barely three hundred years ago, he saw a woman being burned to death er in London for murdering her husband... and people watched... and no doubt thought that it was the right of free born Englishmen to enjoy the spectacle. Not many lives ago... there were public hangings in this country and people certainly thought it was their right to watch and enjoy in fact, they even paid for seats to see public hangings, if they could afford to... and as Mr has pointed out, er it 's not long ago... er that bear baiting and badger baiting and cock fighting were seen as right and proper and no doubt spoken of as rights of free born Englishmen. Now, they would be thought obscene... public perception has changed... and understood that animals are sentient beings... and that... we demean our humanity... if we... are cruel to them or permit cruelty. I can't believe... knowing er some of the people who do hunt, that their motive is actually... that they want to see a fox torn to pieces. I believe the motive is in fact the enjoyment of riding a good horse fast over open country... and I can understand that.... They don't have to hunt foxes to do that... the motion, the main motion not the amendment suggests drag hunting... er they could, there there my, I think it means proper drag hunting not one... er to previously er l l laid out er objectives... er they could race each other, they can have treasure hunts, er... there are plenty of ways in which they could enjoy riding. If their motive actually is... er to enjoy seeing a fox torn to pieces er then I suggest to them er that is unbearable cruel... there are of course objections to er this motion and to its further extension the banning of fox hunting altogether. We are told that foxes are vermin and it is necessary to hunt them down. Mr Chairman, if... decent people find it necessary er to kill animals they believe be vermin... they don't dress up in red coats and call them pink and er charge er, er, er, about er drinking st stirrup cups and tooting horns, er they go out and kill the vermin, it's a necessary job that has to be done and of course, er there are many ways in which foxes could be killed without cruelty... if it is necessary to kill them. As a matter of fact, the hunt is a very ineffectual way... of controlling foxes, er they record the number they kill and it's very, very few, a tiny percentage of the number of foxes there are in the countryside... clever foxes er, as indeed I think Mrs mentioned, live in towns nowadays... er, but there are still quite a lot in the countryside fortunately and they will survive... er, though zoologists tell us er that er by instinct er they see that their numbers are controlled. Another objection is that jobs will be lost and certainly that would be a serious objection but it's a speechless one, of course, people who can afford it will still ride... and will still employ the same... people who are now hunt servants... er to look after their horses and themselves and those who can't afford horses will continue no doubt to enjoy the spectacle... er, that argument doesn't hold water... and the other objection of course er is that er it would mean the hounds were killed, but since I understand er hunting people kill their hounds anyway when they get too old to keep up, er I think er... we can dismiss that argument and leave it to them... er to see that the hounds are decently dealt with.... Mr, main argument of course er was er wholly spacious er with that proposed in the main motion would not stop any activities which are the proper aim of the agriculture act.... [cough] It's true I think er as Mr said at some length... er that er this measure would not prevent hunting in in most of the area in which it it takes place, through plenty of it happens of course well to the West of the A six... er perhaps it might even get out there from time to time but our duty clearly is to see er that the right thing is done in the territory which is our responsibility and our other responsibility is surely to set an example of decent humanity.... I invite er Mr and his supporters to get out of the age of Dickens and into the twentieth century. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well done. [speaker002:] Mr [Howard:] Yes, thank you Chair. er, erm, speaking in favour of the motion against the amendment, quite strongly against the amendment because I don't believe it moves that debate any further and the debate, as a number of speakers have said, will go on beyond this chamber, Chair. I hope [speaker002:] I am not a chair, this is the chair, I'm the Chairman please. [Howard:] My apology Chairman. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Howard:] My apology, your prerogative. Chairman, the motion before us today if passed, will act as a lever a lever against the weight which is rolling inextricably forwards. Parliament will debate this issue and I'm quite sure as a number of people are, that Parliament will vote in favour of a ban.... Can I, for the benefit of members opposite who, who always seem to believe that people on this side of the chamber are townies and don't know anything about anything other than street lighting... for the benefit of... members opposite and for the public gallery outside, can I say that in my younger days, a million years ago, I rode with hunt. [speaker001:] Ooh, ooh. [Howard:] I followed on foot, by car and by horse, I enjoyed it.... But like a number of other people before me... I turned... and I turned in response to totally unnecessary violence. Like speakers before me this afternoon Chairman, I object to barbarism.... I object to the attitude that we have a right to kill to dispose of.... The argument has been made clearly and repeatedly that fox... fox hunting with hounds is not effective.... Farmers themselves will say there are better ways of controlling fox population. [speaker001:] Rubbish. [Howard:] It might be rubbish, try talking to a farmer occasionally. Should you have declared an interest Mr?... Chairman, we are debating a motion which will... we are debating a motion this afternoon Chairman which will ban fox hunting on land that we control. The object of the exercise is to move the debate forward to another place where another group of individuals will also have a free vote and it's quite rightly been said. I used to be a hunt supporter, I used to be a hunt follower... I gave up because I object to an attitude of a society of people that life is disposable... having seen wounded fox hounds... and that is the proper term... having seen wounded fox hounds despatched with a revolver... because they've got a broken leg... having charged full pelt across a public road and hit a motor car coming the other way and fortunately not injured the occupants of the motor car... having seen the damage that a pack of hounds in full cry can do to land that they are not entitled to be upon... because fox hounds can't read. They don't know which side of the road they're supposed to be, all they know is they are bred and trained to chase.... Having seen the damage that a pack of hounds will do to domestic pets... it far outweighs in my mind Chairman, any damage that a fox can do, that a fox hound can stop them doing. There are methods available to control foxes.... The age old argument about the damage that a fox does in a hen coup is clearly un unfounded A farmer who allows a fox to get into his hen coup deserves everything he gets. Chairman as a former supporter of fox hounds I have to say I am no longer a supporter of fox hounds, I would see the law of this land used to ban hunting with hounds and I support the motion. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Mr Bernard [speaker001:] First of all I'm surprised at the outburst that was given to us by Mr I would regard as my er yahabeebee and sadiki if you wish er, but he mentioned in fact the er, what used to be barbaric ac, barbaric er practice in er Pakistan. I wish he could use his Saudi influences to prevent the barbaric practice of decapitation of human beings which takes place every Friday in the square at Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. Now the other thing I would say, I support in fact Mr amendment... and I oppose the motion.... Destruction of vermin on county council owned farms is within the remit of the tenant farmer. Also I express surprise at the Labour leader's volte face a short while ago in the press... he reported that he had more important matters to think about, or discuss insofar as fox fox hunting was concerned or words to that effect.... To its enthusiasts hunting and especially fox hunting... is more than a sport... it is a national institution enjoyed equally by all countrymen and I emphasis all countrymen. Institutions enjoyed equally by all countrymen, I again emphasise... that in the hunting field social distinctions do not exist... and those who follow houn hounds start equals... receiving consideration exclusively through their own... merits.... However, what is the lynchpin as I see it, of the debate today... is the deprivation of civil liberties... as proposed by the Labour group. All be it a tenant,... whether or no a tenant farmer must have the privilege of deciding who is invited onto his farm.... Also... for that matter, a tenant hand, a householder... has the rights... to invite who he wishes into his own house, this one sided dictatorial attitude of the Labour group to determine who can, who cannot enter his home is... er contrary to my philosophy anyway Chairman. Thank you. [speaker002:] Mr [speaker001:] Unlike Mr I have always found fox hunting distasteful, I have never participated in it, I have never followed it... and I don't think that I I ever want to... and er, I have I am not convinced by either economic or the put forward in its favour. I shall nevertheless vote against the motion... and I shall vote for the amendment although as much as I wished it had happened or,... or erm... a different proposal to Mr because I don't think it helps your argument when you call your opponents instead of arguing face and er unlike Mr I actually do believe its in subsidiarity and I think... we should accept Leicester and Leicester only and what the Leicester hunt will do should be decided here in Leicester, not in Westminster, er any more than the composition of our offices should be, should be decided in Brussels... and I believe in subsidiarity. The reason I shall vote against the motion and for the amendment couldn't have been put more succinctly than it was by Mr, I think Mr made the most pertinent remark that has been made in the debate today, when in opposition to what... Mr said about... individual freedom he said... this is a matter of personal... conscience. This is a matter of personal conscience... and what every member... in the council chamber today must be aware of, is that there is a vociferous and committed group of people... we know that because we've all had a great deal of... communication from them... and interestingly enough I have... and most of the communication I've had has been in favour so victory, people who write must be extremely perceptive in, with er... marketing the that's not the point, we all know that there is a committed and vociferous group of people whose consciences do not lead them to the same conclusions as Mr 's conscience... and the issue really is, do we in a... liberal and democratic society... have the right... to impose our consciences on those of other people who live in the community and quite clearly and quite determinedly take a different view. That's the issue.... Now... I believe that you test the liberal democracy, not by the ease with which majorities... get their way... but on the extent to which... you accommodate the views of committed minorities... and we've lived so long with majority rule, masquerading as democracy, that we've forgotten that that is more akin to dictatorship than anything else.... So for that reason I do not believe that I... feeling strongly as I do... should im impose my views on others. This issue comes up time and again for example there is an equally divided community in Britain, a divided position... on matters like abortion. There are some people who say abortion is murder, it should be... not allowed that, that there are others equally we say that we women to determine what happens to their own bodies and their destiny is for them, I respect that view too but in those circumstances you don't resolve problems by... the majority whatever it happens to be... determining what the minority will do.... You in fact, leave the matter open... so that each of us as individuals do what our personal consciences tell us.... I would never hunt, I will also not demand that anybody else hunts... and I don't think other people should say to me... what I should and what I should not do... and I think that's the issue. [speaker002:] Mrs [Beale:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, I would like to say at the start. I don't hunt. That makes a lot of horses in Leicestershire very happy [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [Beale:] What I would say Chairman is that I will defend the right of the tenant farmers to make their own minds up, just as much as I will defend the rights of council house tenants to say what goes on in their houses. It is the very same thing... erm... could I say that... two people have written to me, two of my constituents and I do agree that... that they have a point. They are asking that I should support the ban on fox hunting. One is a Mr Fox and the other one's a Mrs Fox, the cards [LAUGHTER] are here if you'd like to see them []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Beale:] I also Chairman have the easy answer to the control of pests. Don't vote Labour at the next election. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker002:] Right, we've come to the end of the speakers, we now have... we now have the. Wait a minute I'm coming to that. We now have the right of reply in the er second reserved remarks of Mr er Mayor er Mrs and then finally Mr. So will you like to come in now Mr. [Beale:] Not a lot to say Mr Chairman, I think it's all been said one way or the other. But a few comments which seem to be apposite erm, we don't want to kill animals with cruelty... do we not? What about the Halal meat, in this county where three years ago we had a meeting and they decided that animals that were slaughtered without being stunned... with sheer terror, who are allowed to bleed to death because this is what a particular group believed in and we did it.... Er, Mr brought slavery into it, but no one had more slaves than India... and the Moguls... and what about suttee where widows were burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands and still leap and still the system was des er was stopped by the English... Just a moment the door was opened by Mr talking about slavery... we don't shut it... on harems and eunuchs and all sorts of things. I also remember Mr at a previous meeting told us we have no right... to pontificate on Moat Centre because we didn't live there but you've got every right to pontificate on the on the hunting even though you don't live there... er, Mr I dunno, barbarism, is this, is this for the Labour a free vote. I don't think the Labour'd know a free vote if it bit him on the leg. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Beale:] I accept the Liberal's is and so's the Conservative, but I'd be interested to know whether anyone allows a free vote ever in the Liberal party.... Mr... when he proposed this er amendment... said precisely what it was. We are not talking about the merits and de-merits of fox hunting... we are not talking whether they die slowly or fast or what should be done. We are talking here about the rights of the tenant farmers to use the land which they have from you... and what do you suggest that it be done?... At the moment the tenant has the right to ban any fox hunting from his f er er land if he wants to. That of course will go... and what's more there's going to be some drag hunting on his land... of which he will not be consulted... because if you had to negotiate with organisations for controlled access to its land for the use of drag hunting. I presume a committee here will decide and sit as to which land shall have dag, drag hunting... and the er the land the tenant will have no rights in that at all and if you're thinking you can control horses that are taking part in a drag hunt any more than you can control horses taking part in a fox hunt, you've got to have another think. You'll still have the same trouble.... You are taking rights away and you are giving them no consultation at all. This says quite clearly what Mr moves. There's one person, group of people not mentioned in his amendment... in his proposition and that is the tenant farmers. Can he remember Moat Centre? Can you remember we had a judicial review? He went there and back and do nothing to the people bol er er involved, being consulted... and we've had that going on for two years... no consultation here has taken place with the people who it affects and there's nothing in your motion to say it will. I think this ought to be thrown out... not necessarily on the rights or wrongs of fox hunting but on a procedural thing... that you've brought about where a dictatorial attitude is brought about by the Labour party that have the right apparently to say exactly what'll happen on someone else's land. Now if you want to do this in a proper way, then you do it in a proper way. I don't mind if you write to all the tenants and say... please don't have foxes on your land, we don't like it. That's alright.... But you're not right for you t start passing laws, which any case you can't adhere to until you have new er er tenancy, you can't enforce them. I don't know... whether it makes any difference for the price you will get in the land, for the land, from a tenant, if you restrict his rights to use it. Don't forget that in his... tenancy agreement, he has a duty to control pests, which includes foxes.... You put that in his deed... but the way that most of them do it through foxing... through, through er hunting, you're taking away from them. This is a whole of a mish-mash, I think we ought to go back to what we did in nineteen ninety two, its the twenty ninth of January and to confer the rights of tenants and other occupiers of land... to allow or stop fox hunting or any other hunting... over land in their care and least trust some people instead of this business of we know best. This is not about democracy, this is dictatorship, your trying to practice over a minority of people in this county. [speaker001:] Here, here [clapping] please. Er, the debate this after er this afternoon has centred on adult views of fox hunting. Well I'd like to say that it's not only adults who have an interest in this subject and have been watching what the county council is going to do about it. At the weekend I received a letter and a petition from a young girl called Frances aged nine years old and it brought it home to me that it isn't an adult centred er erm issue, that it's one for everybody who lives in Leicestershire. Unfortunately it was received too late to... go through the formal council procedure, but I do hope that you allow me to hand it to the council secretary later who it is addressed to. The letter is short and I would like to read it. It starts [reading] Dear county secretary. I am writing to you on my views of fox hunting. I was against this sport all along, but it is only now that I have read the page in the Leicester Mercury that I feel bold enough to speak out to you. Sport I agree, can be played, but I don't call fox hunting or cub hunting a sport. It is an inhuman, heartless massacre... a murder, an unasked for and undeserved murder, a murder of innocent, lively, living, intelligent foxes. We have a fox that lives near us and I have spent many a night and a morning watching it frolicking and jumping about... and it breaks my heart to think that many of its kind are suffering death at its worst. Imagine if you were a vixen scared and frightened, seeing her cubs destroyed. Many suffer this way yet some people don't care. Some people like and enjoy it. There are jobs around that don't involve animals. Now I talk fox hunting. Think it and dream it. In my mind I won't rest till I know that I have done something, no matter how small to bring this ban closer to a stop. I look forward to hearing your opinion on this matter. Signed Frances, aged nine. [] Nine And this child. That's right and that's a credit to the education system of Leicestershire. Here, here [LAUGHTER] [clapping] And Frances has also collected a petition... of sixty four children at her school which I will also hand over to the county secretary. I think it's very clear that its fox hunting should be banned in Leicestershire. I support the motion of Councillor and Councillor. Thank you Chair. [speaker002:] Er, before I call Mr can I... compliment the council on the way that this debate has gone. A lot of people anticipated a lot of ill feel, well... a lot of ill feeling being expressed. Thank you for not doing that. Thank you for the complimentary way you've acted. Mr. [Taylor:] That's stumped my reply. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] Now I, I won't, I won't go for this vote because at the end of the day I I don't think it'd be er er productive, it'd be counterproductive... erm, I do hope... that you around the chamber tonight, do look inside and say... look if you're fed up with it coming to the council... Mr whatever your name is, I forget, the new guy... er, it will only come back next year. Get rid of it now. Vote for our motion and go for higher places. [speaker002:] Mr [Beale:] Er, I I do apologise but erm... I've never known a fox yet... drop a cattle, a stock, er something that big, when, when you said farmers and their cattle, their d mostly dairy farmers and all the rest of it... I've never seen a fox do that. In actual fact I've got a friend and I go potholing with him, we meet, he's a Kendall farmer, he's a a sheep farmer... and er, we meet and he says you know what I've got a problem with... on my land, not foxes... dogs and walkers that haven't got them on the leads... and crows at lambing time cos they peck their eyes out... and things of that calibre, he says yes, I'll tell you what I'll bet you I've had animals taken by foxes... he, he says I probably have, he said but I've not had this kind of unindeighted killing as.

[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] How long've we got? Don't know what the reaction is [Kathy:] and they put theirs and whatever but if you do send something on a letter think [speaker002:] erm no now this being about it being a permanent record could be positive or negative [Kathy:] [LAUGHTER] yeah [speaker002:] yeah, before you commit things to paper do be very very careful make sure that it's not just because you're in a bad mood or something like that they can always come back and. It lacks the personal touch... it lacks the personal touch which is why you never send your people letters saying you're fired or you know lost a job you always talk to them and it can be more expensive in terms of materials you use it's it is very very expensive on mat materials and cheap on time but it's a personal relationships that's the first thing okay that'll do so when do we use it? When do we use it?... [Lee:] It is actually it is when we're in the office [Kathy:] oh [Lee:] is it a job application? [Kathy:] yeah [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Very important message that's what you're trying to say [Lee:] like before the break when you want to have a permanent record of what you'd done so that you can't turn round and say well I don't remember them conversation [speaker002:] letters when erm copying of letters which do need a copy of what's been what's what permanent evidence What else? [Lee:] When you reply to somebody or send an acceptance or [speaker002:] When you reply to someone [Lee:] yeah er okay erm, I'd cut out R S V P [speaker002:] okay, okay erm yeah although normally you could do something like that while you can do that by phone you can call up and say yes we're coming definitely just to get in touch and say it.... Looking for two points not many can do at meetings as long as you pass it up there's two points, two important points that we haven't talked about so far and there in the reasons why we do it they're in there somewhere.... [Lee:] When you want to contact a lot of people [speaker002:] When st when staff can't all receive that information at the same time but they y'know they can read but they need the information but that can't all receive it simultaneously they as many staff many staff, one more... and the last one is one you like computer stuff like that where you've got a lot of detailed information you know that you want detailed information [speaker001:] [cough] [Kathy:] such as this year's figures you know they're not paying you to somebody over the phone and expect to remember of course they can't so I've got the detail that I need to keep looking at, and there about that's about it. They're the times when when actually look at which ones we'd use remember the strengths in these some of the biggest yes you can go into greater detail you can see the reaction face to face you'll get feedback straight away verbal as well as non-verbal er you know immediately what the answer is if there's if you're waiting for some sort of reply to it, you'll have more effect because it's face to face erm, cheap on material but it's expensive on time you don't have a formal written record and it can be very time consuming. The best times to use the personal the actual personal touch in talking to each other personal communication is when you give reward or praise matters of importance and urgency matters of complexity unpleasant matters personal matters or things like verbal warnings. Okay. Doing things communicating with people verbally can mean a lot more now sometimes with a lot of bureaucracy you can get sucked in to putting everything down on paper but it doesn't mean as much as it does when it's face to face communication. The strengths of using written communication is that it's on paper there's a record, of course that can be a weakness sometimes, be careful what you put down, it means more you get hold of more than one person you've said it to more than one person who can be quite difficult to get hold of. Okay. it can be read whenever it doesn't have to be read as soon as it's rel received. You can make sure you can take time to make sure you get it right you get the information right gives you chance to formulate new ideas and put things in a different way until they have to be too many drafts. It can really be helpful if it's complicated and detailed information, notice the difference between complicated and complex. Complicated when it has to be written down to or detailed where there's a lot of information to be taken in and it's a lot easier if it's done that way because people can refer back to it all the time. The weaknesses are lack of security the time difference that it can bring if there's lots of replies going backwards and forwards erm it might get mislaid, it might never get read, you don't know you can't be sure that people are actually reading the memo er you don't know what the reaction of the people is you can't go back on what you've said because it's on paper er and it lacks that personal touch can be expensive on time, times to you but sorry erm but can be expensive not on time but on materials. Important matters. Okay can be used for important matters where you need a copy or a record of what's been done. It's useful when you've got to contact lots of staff or get information to many people at the same time and allows you to put detailed information down. [cough]... Well that's what I think what do you think?... Any comments? Yes that's right no that's a load of rubbish [speaker001:] That's a good synopsis [speaker002:] That's what? huh. It wouldn't look very good if I gave you a great big rambling piece of paper now to tell you about communications [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] All I wanted you to do is put the highlights down it's all we need we need to know what the important things are, okay, just a quick breakdown of things we talked about. How many of you people do use a lot of written communications? How many, never [speaker001:] not if I can avoid it [speaker002:] I mean is that because that because you've made that one of the things you want to do, you want to avoid if possible or [speaker001:] Well the only people that I actually need to write to are managers or agents and I mean I give them a print out of what I do every day [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] but I mean there's no reason for me to send them memos [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] then know what I do the result is what I do I'm not doing my job they know [speaker002:] right, okay, okay, [Marcus:] very rarely [Greg:] not a lot cos you know in the department I've got it's ah we're in touch with all of the suppliers and all the sub- contractors [speaker002:] right [Greg:] erm, and with agencies like Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise so a lot of the stuff we get in is written and we have to reply [speaker002:] okay [Greg:] a lot of it's verbal [speaker002:] right [Greg:] but but it's erm an amount of written work that needs to be done... [Ian:] with ours it's a lot more telephone communication [speaker002:] okay [Lisa:] telephone so [Neil:] I'd say mainly verbal just confirmation of orders [speaker002:] okay, again I mean these are things that talk about confirmation I mean quite honestly I'm I'd be quite happy if we had offices where people talk to each other ninety per cent of the time rather than send memos and faxes to each other, and on the whole we are really talking about inside the office with the people who we work with I mean obviously clients as well trying to find something different, we tend tend to find that it's very very easy sometimes to make a phone call it's much easier to make a phone call and to talk to that person and give them the personal touch. Really the only reason I could think of when it's you know it is important to put things on paper are really like the last three bits that we talked the last three things we talked about which detailed information would need to be there so people can read it when you know it's got to get to a lot people not all in the same place at the same time or when it's you need a copy. They're the only times really and as with the I B M the I B M people's the company I B M said if it's more than a page is it really worth sending it out. Okay. Gonna ask you to do an exercise now er it'll it'll take us to four o'clock before we start talking about assertiveness what I'm gonna ask you to do is in one, two three, one two in two twos and a three I want you to put on paper one side one sheet of paper to sum up all the things we've done about communication so far today and it's going to other people on this course, and it's going to be marked by one of them on this course. On the criteria we've been talking about today, so find yourself a partner that you haven't worked with today somebody erm if you go in the same group that Kathy's in because then if it comes up to four o'clock Kathy wants to go then you can be the other partner you've got half an hour to put on one sheet of paper clearly and concisely what we've done on communications.... Okay, erm well if you go you go with erm Neil and Kathy then they can give you something different, alright. You've got I'll give you twenty minutes and it's gotta be ready to be handed over to the other group in twenty minutes time. [Lisa:] Has just one of us gotta write it or [speaker002:] Well we don't want no all we want is one so that at the end we want from each group to go to another group to be marked. that's stumped you hasn't it? [speaker001:] that's one way of putting it [Lisa:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Can we have some [speaker002:] erm [speaker001:] date [speaker002:] Okay let me just I'm sorry [speaker001:] ah yes [Lisa:] Have we just gotta list it have we? [speaker001:] er [speaker002:] Have we just gotta list? What've I just been talking about, what did she say? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You've gotta to do it so it's clear, concise and puts across the information that you feel is important to get across [Lisa:] right [speaker002:] Sorry you want some paper does anybody else want some paper And you can speak loud because then it'll get recorded okay and then we can actually [speaker001:] expressing yourselves, express yourself erm oh yeah, oh yeah yeah Paper Gordon? [LAUGHTER] He's going for it [LAUGHTER] that's right [cough] erm Oh yeah [LAUGHTER] [cough] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] yeah but you know... ... [cough] yeah [cough] ... the set of circumstances described yeah [LAUGHTER]... said it was the minute or so [LAUGHTER]... [cough]... [LAUGHTER] Can we elaborate on that... ... [cough] [cough] [cough] [cough] [speaker002:] erm, the time the time I've given you you seem to be quite busy another five minutes or less? Five minutes, five minutes, that enough? Okay five minutes. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Well it was there so I thought I'd bring it [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I know you can't have it [speaker001:] huh [LAUGHTER] [cough] [LAUGHTER] [cough] on to the ring road there first roundabout I come to yeah, well that's no problem and then from there even I can't get lost famous last words yeah reactions... that'll be an area [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]... [cough] [LAUGHTER] should have been here this morning I was coming so but um Yes I am but I don't being as far away as I am yeah I mean I yeah [LAUGHTER] West Ham Oh dear [cough] [speaker002:] Okay, everybody seems as though they've finished right can you put your as I say team one team two team three please, one, two, three... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] [speaker002:] Okay that's group three... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ... you see just to prove I'm listening [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that's for group one one okay, okay I'm not telling you who's doing whose right please mark it, marks out of ten and I want you to be able to justify your marks. Marks out of ten... [cough] [speaker001:] [cough] [cough] [cough] [cough] [speaker002:] Okay, just about it now... Okay, gonna ask each group what marks they've given and why, now it's not for the other team to justify it because it's all a subjective thing but the thing is we're hopefully marking them against the same criteria as everybody else because we've all been in the same place and listened to the same things and read the same things, however, now we know obviously it doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's taken in the same things. So let's just see how people have marked and what people see as the criteria. Let's start with your group Mark cos [speaker001:] yeah [Marcus:] right well we have given team two six [speaker002:] six, fine [Marcus:] As we feel that they missed a fair bit out what they've written is very good but erm they've missed quite a bit out [speaker002:] So is it not detailed enough for you or or? [Marcus:] It is detailed alright but as I said what they've written is detailed enough but they've missed out erm various things that we needed to know [speaker002:] such as? [Marcus:] Such as er what we were trying to listen sorry what we were trying to talk erm with the person listening didn't listen er what we were trying to talk about [speaker002:] right, okay that warranted more marks for that one but for missing that out [Marcus:] but kept on repeating themselves [speaker002:] okay, so is repeated, something being repeated and also something being missed out okay. Any comments on that? Group two [speaker001:] Not really no [speaker002:] Do you think it's fair comment? [speaker001:] yeah erm, I think we felt slightly pressurised in the timescale [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] erm but er trying to get down as many points as we could, in a way that you can express yourself but to show that you were [speaker002:] [cough] What was your priorities when you were doing that, what were your priorities as far as, was it to get it all down or was it just to get in down in a particular way what what do you see as the priorities when you were talking about doing it? [Marcus:] Well to try and show that we'd covered we'd taken in as much of what was going on [speaker002:] [cough] Okay [Marcus:] erm... and trying to show that we'd understood it [speaker002:] Right, alright we say we do [speaker001:] ah group three well they got two it depends on what their criteria is if it's erm... just listening a diary of events of what's gone on [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] then they got ten, if it's showing an understanding of what was in that diary then we're give them four [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Good, why only four? [speaker001:] erm, there's on certain parts of ah what they put has shown they they've understood what was in that part of the diary like in the exercises relating this morning to or to learning like with the Roman numerals and the other thing they shown that they understood what was in that context, but then on erm when you get later on it's just er [Kathy:] they've started off with it erm the report described what they've learnt but they haven't actually put what they've learnt [speaker002:] right, okay [speaker001:] yeah it's [Kathy:] what they've done to learn it [speaker002:] right, okay [speaker001:] You know on certain passages it's like we've completed a questionnaire and then discussed it [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] they're not sure what they the discussion was really about [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] whereas other parts they have gone into more detail which is ones they've gone into more details with [speaker002:] So what they've done is they've picked a way of doing but they kept chopping and changing the way they've been doing that all the time. Any comments group three? [Kathy:] Yeah, at the beginning was when sort of got twenty minutes left to do it erm we were fine there and I think it was the beginning part was and then we started panicking then like sort of after that you said oh do you want five minutes or more and we all sort of looked at each other you know and we didn't feel that we had enough time erm so we just sort of really [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] okay [Kathy:] and yeah we did forget the first paragraph of the of what we had learned so we just covered what we'd done really [speaker002:] Could this be time pressure then? [speaker001:] We also er actually what was meant to be on the course yeah we weren't quite sure if that was what you wanted Yeah Yeah you know [speaker002:] Before you mark it I did mark it [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Don't know what you were asking us to do we were a bit unsure of [speaker002:] In what way? [speaker001:] Well, we really know whether you wanted us to put what we learned from the report what we'd actually done that day as in just listing it as you said like a diary or [speaker002:] Why didn't you ask? [speaker001:] We were a bit [speaker002:] Why didn't you ask? [speaker001:] That's why we were chopping and changing because some of you'd say one thing somebody that couple of times [speaker002:] Well you could have asked you know. Questions like that you can ask then. You know here we come down to very basic premise of communication [Kathy:] yeah [speaker002:] remember what we said the first thing to date you have to understand what you're trying to do [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] it's the same with written communication as well, being clear and if you're not clear then make it clear. Now really it's the same thing, don't be afraid you can't be afraid to ask because if you're not clear in your own mind how the hell is the person who's trying to communicate with you going to be clear. So that's why Well well done at least it was a a time question of course time pressure is supposed to be there it's not supposed to be nice and comfortable [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] A because we haven't got that much time and B because the little bit more pressure you're under the more likely likely to leave certain things out so maybe you've got the point. But you know you agree with the comments that came in there [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] righto well done, well done both groups okay and then I need your your comments on this group over [speaker001:] Yeah we gave them Group two seven. [speaker002:] Seven [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] Good, okay [speaker001:] erm, they've covered all the areas discussed but they didn't sort of pinpoint the areas of the Ah like again something like this what we actually [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] that's what we're really sure about that's why. erm like you we read the first passage and it was kind of what's what's all this about if you wasn't in the room and you didn't know what was being you haven't got a clue what was going on because it doesn't tell you, but the rest of the sections that put down they do give a sort of brief analysis [speaker002:] so worth seven you reckon [speaker001:] Well we was being a bit generous [LAUGHTER] like if you take them down to six [speaker002:] What were you trying to do? What were trying to me what were you trying to do? [Lee:] Cover everything in the [speaker002:] Cover everything, that was your main priority was it? [speaker001:] yep [speaker002:] Okay, and they did that do you think? [Kathy:] They covered everything they to do that but they just if I'd have just read that without knowing what had happened you know I [speaker002:] Well the middle group said said that your one was [speaker001:] yeah [cough] [speaker002:] How does it compare to your one then, how do you feel it compares to your one? [speaker001:] Well we went, we went into a bit more detail Bit more detail, yeah more at the beginning [speaker002:] Measured by the middle group's criteria they would've had three then would they? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Eh? [Kathy:] We're not that cruel [speaker002:] No, no no no we're just looking at what criteria we're measuring [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] And you know this brings another important aspect up which is very important about communications, erm you know we've jollied along talking about what communication is making sure people know you know what you want etcetera etcetera etcetera but also don't forget that different people can have different perceptions of the same same things but as I say here we are we sat here we done we've done about an hour an hour and a half on written communications and yet you know when we passed the papers around it hasn't been too bad but there has been different things that people have gone for both in the writing of these reports and both in the marking of them as well. So you know what this is a measure of it's not a measure of anything it doesn't mean that one group's done better than the others it just means that's the way it's been measured the work that they've done has been measured by another group which isn't good or bad it's just hopefully picking out the important criteria and applying them to the work that we've done and the notes we've produced and the way we've marked other people's. Now having said that different people might make take put the emphasis on different things. Bear that in mind and also an important part of communications that's why there's always so many problems about which is right. Everybody sees a different picture and of course most people see don't see it anyway because by the time they look and see what's happened it's already happened. Right well done yeah fine no problems [Lisa:] Have I [speaker002:] No leave it in you don't want any homework tonight [speaker001:] Right [speaker002:] exhausted now anyway [speaker001:] Sorry [speaker002:] if they don't turn up till eleven o'clock tomorrow [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yeah yeah [speaker002:] Okay, alright, I want to move on now quarter past four now, I want to talk about assertiveness. Assertiveness always seems to be one of these subjects that really, I don't why but it seems to get to get people talking about about being aggressive about dismissive about lots of different things and I think assertion perhaps is one thing that we need we need to clarify [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] before we do anything else. Let me ask you a question. I'll give you a minute each, write down what you think being assertive means. What does assertive being assertive mean?... [cough]... How'ya done ya finished? All done? What do we mean what is assertive mean to you? this is gonna be quite interesting I suspect. Anybody want to start the ball rolling [Marcus:] erm, it's how confident you are in yourself and the way that you actually put your point across. [speaker001:] on the same lines as getting your point across and not being afraid to do it your point across and not being afraid of doing it [cough] [speaker002:] Okay,... [speaker001:] being afraid what sort of things scared ah what people might think or saying [speaker002:] Good good... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I've got trousers on [speaker002:] right [Lisa:] getting your point across effectively yeah [speaker002:] getting your point across effectively [speaker001:] yeah... apart from being positive in putting your point across and erm being clear in things that you say things that you do being strong about it... [speaker002:] clear and strong, when you say strong what do you mean? [speaker001:] ... [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Or is it you know how can you be strong [speaker001:] Making yourself understood clearly basically, knowing what you're talking about [speaker002:] Knowing what you... knowing what you're talking about being clear okay yep [speaker001:] More or less on the same lines having a point of view and putting it across without wavering, don't erm [speaker002:] Cover your point [speaker001:] Yes, getting your poi yeah [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] yeah, okay [speaker002:] Having a point of view and putting it across to other people I think we've [speaker001:] and words are put clear and strong and I think I'd use the word forceful [speaker002:] forceful, okay... but the other bit you're happy with [speaker001:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] great [speaker001:] what ya say [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] great [speaker001:] are you scared? erm, the one thing that I thought was under person who is who is talking he's gotta be I think he's gotta be firm so that the person understands that erm that what is required but he's also gotta be fair at the same time hasn't he? [speaker002:] than fair... okay, good good... What's a person like when they're being assertive? [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] Anybody else? Right think of a time when you were assertive [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] When was a time when you were assertive, just think you can be anything assertive over anything it doesn't matter think of a time when you feel you were being assertive anybody think of a time when they were being assertive... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Lisa:] hoovering, cleaning the windows [LAUGHTER] a bit like all men [speaker002:] Oh now here we go [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] right, you be careful you're letting yourself in here [speaker001:] is gone [speaker002:] She's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that's being assertive [Lisa:] I can be a man [speaker002:] okay just think of a time when you were assertive and you all everybody think of a time when you were assertive, can you think of a time, anybody can't think of a time when they were assertive? You not gonna tell me even if they can, now you know you're being non-assertive. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Think of a time when you've been assertive it can assertive in the very very slightest form it doesn't matter, assertive of some sort. Got a time [speaker001:] yeah [LAUGHTER] yes [speaker002:] great [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I know I have been but I can't think of one at the moment [speaker002:] make it up, make one up what would it be like if you were being assertive? Alright we've got that time you were being assertive, think of a time when you weren't assertive. Think of a time when you weren't assertive, just think of a time when you weren't assertive... can you think of one [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] If you can't think of one make it up What's the difference, what's the difference [speaker001:] well erm I wasn't being assertive I was a bit walked over [speaker002:] you let yourself get walked over, okay. What made it what it feel as though you'd been walked over? [speaker001:] well erm, it's just a sense of ya know I couldn't care less it's yeah go on an do that I don't give a stuff [speaker002:] Did it bother you? [speaker001:] Not at the time no it didn't it bothered me when it was done because I thought you've probably done something and the outcome would be that so at the time it didn't bother me because I wasn't interested in the situation [speaker002:] So is that being as you weren't being assertive at the time [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] Not bothered [speaker001:] yeah, I think what it does I mean because I had the change to alter the situation [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] uh uh I wouldn't take the chance [speaker002:] So what's the difference between the two situations in you? [speaker001:] In me? I dunno I felt like I let myself down [speaker002:] You feel like you let yourself down, okay [Marcus:] I'd agree with that [speaker002:] You feel like you let yourself down, what how would you say you let yourself down, I don't mean to be specific but in what way did you let yourself down [Marcus:] erm, I I let the person do what they wanted to do and not what I wanted to do I just went along with what they said [speaker002:] okay, okay you feel you let yourself down because of that [Marcus:] yeah it could've be done better [speaker002:] okay, right [speaker001:] at the the time I think when I wasn't being assertive and when I wasn't the difference was the person was younger than me and I was being assertive and then when I perhaps wasn't and like said you feel after that you've let yourself down. The person was older than me and he's a bit higher up the rank than me and it's all about it probably comes with experience he's to stand for yourself really but it's when you're our age and a bit younger you don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat if there's something that's going on that you don't agree with but you're asked to do something that you don't want to do valid reasons you haven't got the time or it's not really up to you to do it [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] those are the two [speaker002:] you'd have liked to have turned round and say look I don't wanna do it [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] it's difficult when you're a customer [speaker001:] yeah, yeah that's right [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] alright [Lisa:] erm with me I don't feel comfortable being assertive [speaker002:] What's the difference then [Lisa:] like [speaker002:] what's the difference what stops you being what stops you [Lisa:] It's not knowing who I can be assertive with [speaker001:] done it I don't think it comes naturally either I mean you have to work at it don't you? [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] ya know some people can [Lisa:] not coming naturally not being there you just sort of [speaker001:] No I find the other way I I find that I am assertive whereas at times I shouldn't be in fact most of the time I shouldn't be and I am and I'm the opposite [speaker002:] okay you find it hard you find it hard to do to make a special effort what is it you have to make a special effort to do? [Lisa:] to get aggressive [speaker002:] to get aggressive [Lisa:] yeah erm because it's not in my nature to be aggressive [speaker002:] alright [Ian:] erm I find that when I'm not being as assertive er I'm not very good in a one to one situation thinking your answers back straight away. I can go away from a conversation and half an hour later I think I should have said that [speaker002:] right [Ian:] erm where I am assertive it's where I'm working to a rule book I know those rules backwards and I want somebody to follow those to the letter [speaker002:] right [Ian:] then I can say that goes in that holder you do that that that and I don't want any variation just do it [speaker002:] so you're very clear about what it is that you want [Ian:] yeah [speaker002:] when you're clear about what it is that you want you can be assertive [Ian:] yeah, I can be assertive [speaker002:] when you're not too clear about it you find it difficult being assertive [Ian:] that's it yeah [speaker002:] okay, what's the difference between being assertive and not being assertive what's the big difference between the two? [Ian:] A matter of confidence [speaker002:] A matter of confidence okay [Greg:] No I was just about to say confidence really I find it quite difficult to get assertive erm but when the situation does arise I suddenly get a gut feeling about it later [speaker002:] okay [Greg:] whereas you look back at the end of the day and if you haven't done what you did you sort of feel like a bit down ah and you wish you had [speaker002:] Being true to yourself [Greg:] yeah go on [speaker002:] I mean is this being true to yourself and letting yourself down and you know not saying what you feel you should've said erm perhaps now I wanna talk about one area in particular and that is this thing about you know submissiveness it seems that most people look at things that disturb you either as submissive or aggressive. A lot of people tend to look at assertion as being aggressive there's a total difference. Being aggressive is just as bad as being submissive it really is because people swing to one side you know it some people are very good at being aggressive and are very good at diving in and getting their own way and just ju by being aggressive it's naturally aggressive. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Now the only problem with that is I sometimes look that these people I wonder are they really happy being aggressive all the time does that really make them feel happy? I don't think so, really it's just the opposite problem of what we've got over here, being submissive now we all know what being being sub submissive yes we let people walk all over us we don't say yeah we we listen to what everybody else says and therefore the opposite is you're gonna get aggressive to get what we want. They're both two sides of the same coin y'know, being aggressive isn't what it's all about, being aggressive certainly isn't what it's all about. What's the point of being aggressive with somebody when they're gonna walk away feeling as if they've just been walked all over, so you've still got the same situation you've got one person walking away feeling a little bit fed up and the other person not so if you talk about assertiveness in terms of aggression and in terms of submission i.e. there's going to be a winner and there's going to be a loser depending which way round you look at it then you still haven't quite grasped what we mean by assertiveness. You don't have to be aggressive to be assertive, look at some of these comments we've got here how confident you are in yourself and how you put your point across. How you put your point across getting your point across and not being afraid of doing it, doing it effectively putting the point across, being positive in putting your point across so it's all about putting your point across effectively, clearly congruously i.e. my body says what I mean. I don't have to shout I don't have to be aggressive or intimidate people I just have to tell people what I feel, think etc. Does being assertive mean getting your own way? [speaker001:] Not necessarily [speaker002:] It never does, it should never it should never be tied in with getting your own way. Aggressive, aggression might be tied it with getting your own but being assertive is not about getting your own way. Being aggressive is about exactly what you put up here this is me this is how I feel about what we're talking about. This is what I think, not just hiding away and saying get on with it you know get on with whatever you want to do, no this is what I believe is what I believe that we're doing. It doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna get it but it means that you're being true to yourself because you're putting your point across. And it's how you put that point across, if you put it across and if the body language you use when you put it across and do you know what makes the biggest different the biggest difference about how you put it across the most important factor about how you put it across and what you're trying to do? Any idea? We talked about it... being clear, being clear about what it is that you want. Any situation with any person you need to be clear in your mind what you want before if there's any dithering if there's any way I'm not sure that will stop ya it's being sure being convinced of what you want is you know exactly what you want you know which direction you're going in. If you don't there's plenty of people out there that do and they'll walk right all over you to get what they want. So it's not about being aggressive it's not about being aggressive or submissive it's about being clear to true to yourself being aware of what you want from any given situation. Just because you're assertive that doesn't mean you're gonna get everything that you want because you're not being assertive just means that other people are aware of what you want. Being submissive is the co point where what happens when you're submissive you keep it inside you don't feel you're worthy enough or you haven't got you haven't got the self esteem to rate yourself as being able to have what it is that you want, so you keep it inside and you don't say anything and then you walk away should've said this and should've said that and all it does is eat away at you and it does that to you physically as well I mean scientific tests are already showing now that physically these sort of things you do if often be submissive enough what that does it pretty much helps helps you to eat your body up from the inside and causes physical problems which pretty much do that anyway. Because you keep it all inside it against you, you begin to feel bad about yourself you begin to lose your self esteem erm you know and that's the most dangerous thing about being bullied in terms of being at school or whether it's even at work and being submissive is withdraw internalise and to take it out on yourself. All this is you're going to take out on somebody else you take it out on yourself. the total is different opposite on the scale, instead of all this stuff inside of you, you just let it build up and you let it build up until whoosh and you throw it outside at other people, and that itself that that as well causes physical problems. Apparently, I mean I've read this, but I don't know how there was actual references to it as well but apparently what they used to do run a test they used to do was they used to get people very very angry take some blood from them, put put them inside of rats and it would kill the rats. When you get angry you pump all sorts of different chemicals around your body and they don't do your body any good that's for sure, you know you get the adrenalin that starts making everything well making the blood move faster heart beat faster you get other chemicals ready and if those chemicals aren't used properly or if something doesn't happen and it uses those particular chemicals and they're left inside the body then that causes eventually physical illness in some sort of physical wearing of some sort or another, so gradually just the opposite of this where you're you're not internalising your throwing it out, but there's a hell of a lot in there that's been stored up there and bottled up there before it throws out, and when you do tend to be aggressive it's not because you're being aggressive on purpose it's because it's just something that just happens and wells up when you get to a particular point and whoosh out it comes. So you know there's the, don't link aggression with assertion, two difference. Assertion you're clear about what you want, you can't there's no need to get get up about it there's no need to worry about it this is what you want and this is the way it is, you don't have to shout, you just have to stick to your point. exercise that you do in terms of assertion in terms of helping build people's assertion is what we call a broken record exercise, okay where one person wants something and the other person is trying to change their minds, okay, you get it in conversation when people don't take you seriously and you've asked for something and they don't take you serious they try and avoid the point, they try and change the subject. Assertion comes into being when you still bring the conversation back this is what I want nothing else will do, and bringing it right the way back all the time to discuss what it is why it's called a broken record exercise, we'll give it a quick go now. What I want you to do is in your couples I want one of you to pretend that one of you's got a grievance okay, think about it before you do it. One of you's got grievance and you want something done, there is something that you want done and the other person, is the person you want to do it or the person who's got a part to play. Now this other person is trying to trying to change the conversation, trying to take you away from what you're trying what you want done. What I want you to do as as the person who's being assertive is to stick to the point. Stick to the point, even if it means you're acting like a bit of a broken record, get that person make sure they hear what you're saying even if you have to repeat it over and over again. What I want you to practice doing is to try and get yourself saying over and over again regardless of how the other person tries to ask you questions to get you out of it, and then swap over. Okay what I ask you to do as with being assertive, first of all be clear about what it is that you're going to try and do, be clear about what it is and what the situation is, explain it to the partner and then try it and let's see how it doing. Okay, working with anybody, just just for just for a few minutes each it's just because what I want you to experience is what it's like to continually go over the same thing, I want you to experience that, to continually stick to your guns just experience that okay? Alright off you go.... Okay, let's swap over, what I want you to remember is it's not a conversation it's not the try not to get into a conversation what we're trying to do is we're trying to stick to one person's trying to stick to their point the other person's trying to take them off it, okay? I want you to try and do that for as long as you can, the person's who's trying to take them off it you try and take them off that point as long as you can, the other person stick to your guns, okay? Swap it round then off you go again. Okay, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] How did it go? [speaker001:] erm... difference [speaker002:] Different [speaker001:] Yeah, because I mean it's not a real life situation So I mean you can't talk, the problem with me is I I will always listen to the other person's point of view as I found it difficult to keep going because of the hypothetical situation you know we were talking it about it early [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] the second time was better [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] Again I was I was willing to listen to what you got and what was saying [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] and I was [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] okay have you got a problem with the [speaker001:] yeah, erm yeah it was different erm with it only being role play it was a bit erm... difficult to keep up with it sometimes and actually keep it going like, erm if it was the real life situation outside right you'd know that the person you were talking to had more had been through that situation before [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] we used the situation of taking faulty goods back to a shop [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] so you the person you'd be talking to would be erm trying to put you off to stop you getting something a a direct replacement [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] they'd be offering you a [speaker002:] okay, okay I understand that [Kathy:] yeah, it was difficult to to get your what you need back because you always change what [speaker002:] erm, okay [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] bear that in mind, thank you [speaker001:] al al although you you're trying to make the same but you do try and change tack a bit [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] erm word it a bit differently [speaker002:] right [Neil:] but a when when somebody when it's becoming apparent that somebody is I wouldn't say is not interested in your little complaint that you've got and that that they're they're trying to change to subject it's difficult to keep them on it [speaker002:] right [Neil:] But erm I felt er are the he did alright because he I don't think he was trying to change the subject he was trying to justify it [speaker002:] right [Neil:] But er, what what had happened as opposed to trying people trying to get [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] right [Neil:] but er but that was the only thing really it was difficult [speaker002:] Okay, it is difficult, okay good. [speaker001:] I I agree it is it's very difficult to do when it's not in a real life situation [speaker002:] Difficult to do when it's in a real life situation believe me it's harder to do in a real life situation than it is in a situation we've got [speaker001:] yeah but [speaker002:] Harder, but it might not be for you I dunno is it? [speaker001:] er well I found it harder to do it [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] Because you you're not actually talking about anything in particular [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] I mean you know if if you were complaining about something or if you were asking for something you'd be asking for it because you knew what you wanted only as you said it's all about being clear about what you want [speaker002:] yes, yes it is true [speaker001:] erm if if like I mean for instance we weren't clear about what we were talking about [speaker002:] right okay [speaker001:] so there's a big difference [speaker002:] okay good point and that is that is a point, that you need to be clear about what you want to role plays on as good as the real thing you know but then again sometimes you know sometimes I've listened to people saying well role plays are a bit harder than real life harder than real life why are we talking about being assertive now. You know yeah may be may be and it is difficult situations do it but I think some of the problem comes in that it's very difficult for us to to stick with the point and hear ourselves say the same thing over and over again because it doesn't feel right how many how many of you didn't feel right doing doing what you were doing? How many of you? [Kathy:] Don't want to be repetitive do you? [speaker002:] That's right don't want to feel you don't want to be a pain [speaker001:] yeah [Kathy:] Mm [speaker002:] and you carry on but sometimes sometimes it is the only way to do it stick with what you say and keep going. Now yes there are times when other people give you arguments and will try and change it around and and you know yes we will listen to them and will agree that but what we want to know is ultimately is what's going to be done about it. Now what's gonna be done about the way we feel is anything gonna be done about it, is the other person taking note of what way we feel and are they gonna do something about it or are they trying to dismiss it? And I think what we're trying to do is to see that we're being treated fairly just as we might listen to that person's argument as well. So it's not a case of just really being listened to, it's not just a case of just being clear, clear in terms of what you want by telling people what you want, and then finding out if they're going to do it. So assertive is just being clear in what you want being prepared to keep going until you've got something along those lines rather than letting people dismiss you or make you feel as though they've dismissed you and your point not being considered i.e. your point not being heard or going away feeling that your point you didn't have a fair crack because you didn't give your point properly. It's just a case of being true to what you feel and being true to yourself giving yourself as good a chance as any of being heard. I've got a little graph up here now one thing about communication and with good communication what you can do is you can actually increase trust and co-operation amongst people. You know if you communicate well with people what happens? Trust increases because if you can talk to people openly and they talk to you openly and you're communicating then you're quite trusting with that person. If your communication is good and you can work together to increase that co-operation and co-operation gets better really puts us with trust and co-operation puts us on a high scale. These are the two real components that we need from people, everybody needs to get trust and co-operation. If you trust somebody okay you're quite open to them, they're quite open to you if you co-operate you're flexible, you're being flexible and you like to work together and what happens is is if you've got low trust and low co-operation with somebody well what you've got is really everybody both people or everybody involved being defensive constantly being def defensive, if you don't trust somebody and you know you're not co-operative you're constantly looking over your back, what are they doing are they doing that's gonna mess something up you know what are they trying to do now. Now here when you end up with a lot of having arguments and listening to a lot of arguments a lot of them are like win lose. As far as being listening to you talking today earlier on it seems to you set up in your minds a win lose situation, I'll show that. That's a win lose, you might've lost that time but you're gonna get it back another time. If we look at a relationship or any type of communication as a situation where somebody's going to win and somebody's going to lose there's not gonna be much chance of two people working together on that so what happens is somebody's got to lose. Nobody wants to lose and if nobody wants to lose it means it gets fiercer and it goes on for longer and it does takes a long time to resolve, if it ever is and often to the detriment of one person to the success of another. You don't have to be win lose all the time, because otherwise you're gonna have a battle. One person doesn't wanna lose and the other one wants to win and is going to go backwards and forwards you just end up pushing and pushing and pushing against each other, pointless. But think about it any form of any form of problem that you have arguments that you have tend to tend to develop like that. You have up here you've got neither win lose but it's like it's a respectable thing you know you respect each other you don't trust them completely and you don't co-operate completely but they just respect just not you're just not willing to go that further little bit and it becomes more of a more of a rather than a win lose or a win win it's more of a people half and half okay I'll give this much if you give that much. Now what's the word that I want it begins with a C,... I'll remember it tomorrow if you ever need to talk about it tomorrow. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I haven't got it written down, oh a compromise that's it yeah, a compromise. Both sides are willing to give something up okay. So nobody wins nobody loses anything and nobody really gets what they wanted out of it at the end anyway or not everything that they wanted. However, there are ways of coming up to here we've got a lot of co-operation a lot of trust and here you get what's called synergies, new names, have you heard that name before synergy, synergy? No, I'll try to explain later on. Basically it's two things coming together and becoming more than their whole, you've got two things two people working together producing more than what two people can produce it's the relationship that produces that extra little bit more. Synergy,... and what happens here there is no such thing as a lose you've got win win. Both parties can get something from that situation, if you trust people and you look at things a relationship over a period of time rather than this particular thing this is what I want now this is what I'm gonna get rather than well okay I'll help you do this now and later on they'll help me do something else, it becomes a win win. Now how you watch look at the relationship what your communication's like how much trust and how much you got co-operation you've got will depend on what type of of a relationship you have. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is going to have a win win relationship all the time but why not go for it. What stops us from going for it, nothing stops us from going for it. Just because you're looking for win win relationships all the time that doesn't mean that you're gonna get walked over all the time because by being assertive and by this is this is really what I want, what is it that you want and looking, listening to the other person's point of view as well as making sure your point of view goes across as well somewhere, somewhere in all of that through all this down here, there's a way of finding something for both people. If one person's aggressive and the other one's submissive win lose. We're not looking at that point of view we're looking at more like working together to find a solution. It takes a little bit of a little bit of maturity a little bit of communication skills and not everybody's got that. So who does the responsibility come down to in the end?... It comes down to you, us you can't blame the other person, the other person's what the other is you've got no right to change that other person ever. That person is that person it's the way they are. The only person you've got a right to change is yourself. Therefore if you've got a relationship with somebody and all you seem to constantly to be doing is constantly arguing and it's either I win or you win you're never gonna get out of that unless other time. If we look at a relationship or any type of commu mean taking a bit of a different look at things thinking well what is it that this person wants from me and what is it that I want from this person? And when you can be clear about what it is you want and be clear what it is they want you've got more of a chance to get the solution to win win rather than if you're just interested in your position and your side.... Any comments?... Any comments [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] right no [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Alright, if it's so easy why don't we all do it what stops us [Lisa:] Because you don't want to be the one to let go [speaker002:] To let go [speaker001:] It's a case of if I do what's gonna happen if the other person don't do it [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] I can trust [speaker002:] trust, trust, somebody's gonna do it somewhere otherwise it just escalates [speaker001:] But surely to if you've been working with your partner for a long time he's gonna it anyway [speaker002:] Yeah I agree with that, if you know somebody well, especially if you know somebody well and if you work with people and you communicate with people you build up trust, and if the communication's there and people are talking to each other and passing on information, information's going round and round trust'll be there, the only time trust disappears is when somebody feels somebody's keeping something back. Not giving all of the information. When you work with people and you communicate you listen to what they say and you make sure you say what you need to say then that trust is there and that trust builds and it fosters trust, and really that's what we've gotta be looking for in the work situation. The problem with the work situation is that sometimes we tend to settle in, and there are you know, there are people who it's very very difficult to be trusted, to be trusting with to be co-operative with because we tend to feel that they're not the trusting or co-operative type. Maybe that's a mistake we've made and that's the way we've turned it round looking at people. Maybe there are other ways and other ways of forming relationships without people getting to know that person or working with that person. Maybe just listening. The onus is on nobody else, it's on you. You know and there's no such thing as failure, at the end of the day there's only results. So you know you might think well I just can't get on with him. Well all that means is that you just haven't got on with him so far, or you haven't quite found the right way to get on with that person yet.... Gonna stop there. I'll want you to think about that tonight, I'm gonna hand out a few sheets that might might explain a little bit of synergy erm I believe synergy this is my this is more of a sort of worldly view. Now I'm not I like I like the thought of but I prefer the thought of in work and how people can work together using this type of thing and think about it in the context of work rather than in the context that it talks about erm and it'll be interesting to talk to you tomorrow so if to see what you think have the think about the things we've talked about. Tomorrow we've got quite a lively day ahead of us erm by the time we do our group work tomorrow first thing in the morning, and also tomorrow after that you'll be doing a role play as well using the things that you've picked up today and seeing how many of them you can practice and put into action what you talked about. Fun day, more fun than today and today I hope I've provided some of the ground work can't there's a lot of things I would've liked to have gone into more detail and generally I do but today there's just there's just not enough time in a day to do it. You know communications is a very big area there's a lot to be talked about erm certainly rapport and leading and things like that you asked for that we could've done a lot more with, the type of language people use we could do a lot more with but when we've got a limited time we're gonna have to take a limited snapshot and I hope that what we've done so far today you found useful and I hope when we put it into practice tomorrow maybe you can understand a little bit more of some of things that we've been talking about today. Please have a think you know have a think about some of the things have a look out if you get out anywhere tonight watching people when they're together just watch them any ideas that you have tomorrow we'll start off with the first ten minutes just going over some of the things we talked about this evening. Thanks very much for your time it's five o'clock have a nice evening and I'll see you in the morning. Nine o'clock tomorrow okay? the things that we've talked about you know the complete of the company worker and you're happy with those [speaker001:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] okay, okay thanks [Neil:] I think in certain aspects as as a team member it could be me er low in dominance I mean that that certainly is me [speaker002:] right [Neil:] erm I know it's easy to say but I was prepared to anyone says which is obviously you know what I'd be prepared to do [speaker002:] right [Neil:] erm but I'm not the sort to sort of push meself forward in front of other people [speaker002:] right [Neil:] try to put my views forward [speaker002:] okay [Neil:] erm extrovert I don't quite know about that [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] alright, the terms extrovert and introvert here I mean we've had two comments on those are used slightly different. Extrovert doesn't necessarily [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] doesn't necessarily isn't necessarily you know the image the popular image of an extrovert which means you know somebody who's always the loudest noise at the party and always that's that's really slightly not quite right picture of an extrovert. Or likewise an introvert doesn't necessarily mean it's a person who doesn't talk to anybody who keeps themselves to themselves and is a miserable, it's not like that at all. What it basically means is that an extrovert tends to tends to have a wide area of interests but won't investigate them as much as perhaps that that deeply, and that includes friends as well, and that includes people around them and they look at the wideness rather than the depth. Introverts are more the other way round whereas they've got narrow interests, narrow fields of interest but they look at them in depth. Likewise with friends they've probably got fewer friends but the friends they have got are very close friends and they know them on a much deeper level. That's really the interpretation of extrovert and introvert and the fact that it can apply to you know being loud and gregarious as an extrovert or being quiet and keeps to himself as an introvert that's more of a popular view which isn't the sort of thing we're trying to put across. It's more of the way that you see things. Wide and not so deep for an extrovert, very narrow very deep for an introvert that type of thing alright. So don't put too much emphasis on that. So you've probably got a wide amount of interests [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah [speaker002:] But you don't got you might not have one that you go into specifically in too much detail [speaker001:] Not particularly, no [speaker002:] Alright Okay, like friends probably got a lot of friends [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] and then maybe only one or two or three other interests you got you go to into very deeply the rest are just sort of friends [speaker001:] yeah, that's [speaker002:] okay, well that's extrovert so we in that particular instance. Alright did that make it make it a little bit better? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] Okay good [Marcus:] I agree with the a I'll jump into things first and yeah and get bored half way through somebody else [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Marcus:] Um could be worked out. Yeah speaking about it because I do like to [speaker002:] Okay [Marcus:] The Chairman, [speaker002:] Okay well don't worry don't worry he can't you know just think of something though having said that if you look at the role that you played in the group moving towards the chairman's style, taking over the group perhaps becoming and you weren't a person that sort of took over and forced your views on everybody but you were certainly up there at the front with and listening to people taking information and manipulating everything that you had to fit what was coming in from everybody so that does show Chairman's skills, Chairman tendencies [Marcus:] Yes, it was subconsciously though [speaker002:] Well perhaps in the future that it might be one thing that you might want to lift up and develop as time goes on well done mate. Is it, Is it? I mean there there's very heavily team worker isn't it? [Lisa:] Yeah, yeah [speaker002:] A person that would like to share their with everybody [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that's a classic team worker [Lisa:] to me yeah [speaker002:] that's a team worker, alright, okay. Now having said all this you know let's not identify with these too much like the that's me you know okay, it gives you an incl an idea of your in of your stance where what sort of attitude philosophy and behaviours you prefer to have within a group, okay and if you match those back to what we saw in the group erm then it's not surprising that the group got on so well together and you know we didn't have too much conflict with the amount of team workers involved because nobody in there wanted to upset anybody else in the team. You know that's really why why we've got so many team workers isn't it? And I mean I put an asterisk down there to say that's what I thought was going to come out quite heavily simply because this is is the case on these courses, you know the people that we get on these courses every single one of these that we've had, and we must have had coming up to what over ten now, every single one we've had people that the most the majority of people have had team work very high on the score. I wonder if it's something to do with the job that you do or the people you have to work with I don't know but that's generally the tendency of people in these groups, team workers come out quite highly. Let's go through all the different bits and see why, I mean all these all these type of things would indicate a different type of person different types of personality. Company worker and team worker are very very similar, except the team worker is more of a person that's interested in the other people within that team, whereas the company worker's more interested in the organisation of the company itself. You know so it's it's it's six of one and half a dozen of the other really, but the company worker learns to be the guidelines the rules the routines of the company and er also really backs up the company line you know and what they're doing for them really is for the company. Big big quite a big priority there so and you know are obviously people that like them like the guidelines that come with the company like the ideas of belonging to the company and like the ideas of actually extolling the virtues of the company and following the company policy. Ah Chairman. Chairman's the person that can sit in with the group of people and is good in terms of receiving information from people and disseminating information and giving it back out again making sure that everybody's being brought in so he's a person really not not so much a leader but he will be a person who can keep the group together and can make sure that all the information flows around the group and that everybody's getting a fair say a fair crack of the whip in terms of what's going on in terms of orienting towards a task, so everything's towards a task you need towards a task. The Chairman will make sure that it stays going in that direction and everybody works together rather than against each other so you got a high score there you know and as we saw in the you might not think you've got those Chairman's skills but then what you did in the group where you were quite a central part of what was going on perhaps indicates that these can be developed. Okay? Shaper. Well shapers are the people that say this way chaps, you know, no no [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] says this way, and the trouble is if you get two or three shapers in a group, the group sort of starts going Mm an [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] in different directions, erm we very very fine shapers in this in these sessions. I've had two or three I think, very rarely do we find them and shapers tend to go out on a limb they tend to want to lead they tend to want to control they want people to follow their way they do tend to be the people that dig in and say you know this is the way we do it. Hence if you have a few shapers you might have noticed the tendencies in the group group discussion that we had because there'll be people digging in and saying no this is the right way to do it. No I'm right and you're wrong, and you can tell very very clearly when you have a shaper within a group. One shaper in a group isn't too bad, more than one shaper in a group you start having a few problems. The plant is not somebody that sits there and grows [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] The plant is somebody that comes up with ideas constantly. Ideas, ideas everywhere ideas all the time what am I do this what about this how about this? Some of them are absolute rubbish some of them are very very very good. But the plant can't work in a group unless they have in order to evaluate or you know or other people sharing other people listening to those ideas and saying what was that idea again. How could we use this what are the benefits of doing this or the disadvantages of doing this so that you've got people within the group who could as a plant and know what to do with those ideas he comes up with them or she comes up with them don't know what to do with them just comes up it's up to the rest of the group and monitor evaluate you know the person that's always putting things that never work. to do it, no that'll never do it erm constantly they need. But those people even those these people have their necessary necessary place because otherwise the whole group would merrily go on and do everything they decide to do without somebody sitting and saying wait a minute why are we actually doing this? So the plant's important because the plant has the ideas. Plants need to be nurtured they need to be looked after and they need to be made they need to know that they come out with id with their ideas. Otherwise if they sit there and be quiet you lose a hell of a lot of ideas from that one person. And the ideas need to be caught they need to be done something with by the rest of the group. Resource investigator resource investigator got a phone stuck to his ear. You know, you want something he knows where to get it. You know you need some information, resource investigator can either give it to you because he's got it or can find it for you. The resource investigator can like a team that's always looking outside of a group to try and find the information necessary outside of the group for the rest of the group. So he'll go out and bring information into the group from various different sources. He'll find the sources from one of his various contacts. He's probably got a lot of contacts along the way for anything anything you want you ask him okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] He's the man [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So and again resource investigator is the person that you pack out to br to gather the information for the rest of the team the vital information for the rest of the team. I mean you came quite high in that I would imagine that's something you quite enjoy doing. You're into facts and figures and knowing people and knowing where to get [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] that's resource investigator. Monitor evaluator, they can usually make themselves the pest of the group because everybody thinks they're so bloody negative. Pessimistic boring old farts i think [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But you know having said that they are there for a reason and the reason they are there for is is if the group didn't have somebody to pull them back down again then they'd might be going off in all different directions doing all these wonderful things and ending up nowhere because you haven't had somebody who pulls them back and says well hold on a minute. If you're gonna do this have you thought of this and what about this and how does this work. They help you monitor those ideas and what's going on. Usually very very pessimistic and always look always look on the on the pessimistic side of things you know all that sort of stuff but you know they are a very important part of the group, you know given given their space to be like they are you know don't take them too seriously remember their job is to criticise and their job is to pull things to pieces. Team worker I really really want to make sure that the whole team as people work together well that everybody's happy such is the comment, is everybody happy, he wants to make sure that everybody as individuals is getting on well there's no stresses or pressures through individuals, individual relationships he tries to keep things smooth within the team. Completer finisher well if you want something done give it to the completer finisher. Other people that have completer finisher traits in abundance is people like secretaries. Because they always end up having to tidy all the knots tidy everything up and finish things off. And these are people like you say have got pride in finishing things off, you know there's a lot of people within groups who don't mind starting things off but don't fancy finishing them. You know start off and then they'll drag drag drag and it needs that completer finisher to actually get that close it down and say right that's done, off it goes. And finally, the expert again we spoke about that, a good example really is in the computer world where you have individuals who get on really well with computers and programming but put them in a group and they really don't provide any in fact if anything they take away from the group. Their presence is a detraction in the group because they're not willing to add to the group you know you've got to have this attitude if you're in a group well the attitude you need to help the group is how can I help that group? And not I shouldn't be here I really don't know what I should be saying I really haven't got as much knowledge as everybody else that doesn't matter, if you're in a group it doesn't matter what you know and what you don't know there's still things going on within that group that you can contribute to [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] the group you don't have to be an expert on something to contribute to the group. You can question other people, other people might have that knowledge and you can question and clarify and form in your mind the ideas that you need and maybe put them to the group as a group. So we need people with different personalities and different types to be within that within any group for a group to be very successful you need some sort of share of the different types of group if you had a predominance of shapers you'd get nowhere. If you had a predominance of company workers where everybody run around following the rules well there'd be nobody else to do anything else. erm Chairman chairpeople you need one or two chairmen chairmen so you can actually pull the whole thing together and keep the group together. Plant, we'll you've got to have your crea creativity from somewhere your ideas have got to come from somewhere that's the plant. Resource investigators the information the group needs to work on has got to come from outside somewhere and resource investigators bring it in. Monitor evaluator to actually check and to give you the pessimistic side of everything to break everything down why it won't work why this should be done why that should be done instead. Team worker to make sure everybody's working together and happy. Completer finishes finishers because at the end of the day that job has got to be finished off. so everybody plays a specific role. Now if there's only three or four or five people in the group you'll probably find that people who works there their strengths and if there's anything missing in a group then sometimes in a good group other people come up [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] take over those particular aspects where they haven't got people to fill those needs. So in a group you don't need one of everybody you could have just half of these but everybody could fall in maybe two roles within that group. But you do need the different personalities to come within a group to make a group successful. It takes different people different styles who like to do different things to different meanings to be part of the rest. So whenever you see people who're not quite like you and maybe there's something about their workstyle that you don't like think about it this way. There is something that those people contribute to the group as a whole. The important thing is to make sure that those people that have got those particular skills are given those roles to be able to perform that role perform use those skills. If they're not it's a waste of a skill. Bear that in mind. Any comments, any questions? Any observations?... Bear in mind you've got all the information there you know what what you are what yourselves and remember that just because these are the scores you got today that doesn't mean that is what you are, it means they are probably the leanings that you've got at the moment. but that doesn't mean to say that you can for example you could become build up these Chairman skills that you've got okay. You can work on those and you can build them up in two or three or four year's time job changes this might take a bit more of a a higher priority. So therefore your team worker might come down a little bit score just to add on to your Chairman's skills. Likewise, you look at any of the other scores that we had fairly high up, for example you rate your plant it's a possibility there that you've got you know you've got these ideas that you're not putting forward that you could do and develop that side of. So just because you've got those it doesn't mean that's what you are and that's the way you're always going to be it'll change and it'll change as time goes on it change as your role changes. It'll change as you get older erm you won't necessarily just have that all the time we used to run these courses for students who had just come out of college and they were joining their company to work for the first first time and we used to do this and we used to find that many of the people who had just taken out the job for the first time had very very flat scores. Coming from college a lot of them used to work in groups but a lot of them had worked more individually and they had very flat scores i e everything was quite equal and they didn't have anything coming through okay. Probably because they hadn't re-used they got there by two or three or four years time when they came on to the next level of management the junior management erm we did this with them again and you would begin to find certain skills had evolved and certain certain team strengths had arisen because they do change over the years. Bear in mind what strengths you've got what strengths you'd like to have and if you know that you know what to improve and how to improve how to develop those other areas that you'd like. Okay? Useful? Interesting? Good good good remember that when you go back into a how many people actually do work with other people where they work where they work? [speaker001:] Yep [speaker002:] One, [speaker001:] from outside [speaker002:] Okay right as well as inside the company [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] But more outside the company [speaker001:] Ah inside mainly [speaker002:] Right [Kathy:] I work with a lot of different people we've all got individual jobs that tie up with each other 's jobs [speaker002:] How many people [Kathy:] Well I'm actually in my own office but it joins on to another office [speaker002:] Right [Kathy:] and there are three other people in there that [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] To do with my job [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] Yeah well it but ah similar to contracts personally

[speaker001:] Mr was also sharing his wife with Mr? [Beaumont:] I haven't heard that. [speaker001:] No. Right. [Beaumont:] Okay, yeah, right. [speaker001:] So you see where we get to? [Beaumont:] Yes. [speaker001:] You go into the master bedroom, man and woman in bed. Isn't it obvious in a second that it's not it's Mr and Mrs? [Beaumont:] At that time no. No I'm afraid not, no. [speaker001:] You still thought it was? When you burst into the bedroom? [Beaumont:] I... I'm being perfectly honest, I didn't know who it was. I I didn't know er and I didn't know the occupants of the flat. [speaker001:] No... but you did know that the husband and wife and. You had no reason to think that... was er... sleeping with the man's wife... I say again [Beaumont:] No [speaker001:] Isn't it obvious within a second that you must be looking at the husband and wife? [Beaumont:] I have to say again I'm sorry no... it it wasn't obvious to me at that time... definitely not. [speaker001:] You thought it, is this right, you thought it could be it could be? [Beaumont:] I have to say that yes.... [speaker001:] And it was only er... when this man, could have been, said... what are you doing in my house? [Beaumont:] Yes [speaker001:] You that you accepted that as as conclusive that it was and not. [Beaumont:] Not... conclusive... but certainly that is when I started thinking that we didn't have. [speaker001:] That more likely... is that you realised... well nigh immediately that it was Mr, that's why you said to Mr... I'm arresting you for harbouring an escapee. [Beaumont:] I had good reason then to suspect that it could well be. [speaker001:] Because of what he said? [Beaumont:] Because of what he'd said and because I'd asked his wife who he was. [speaker001:] Not because he was in bed with his wife that didn't? [Beaumont:] I didn't know that was his wife, erm. [speaker001:] Well I did bother to ask who you'd thought would be in the flat, you said Mrs Mr. [Beaumont:] Yes... yes that's correct, yes.... [speaker001:] One minor point... [cough] you heard the give evidence, you know it's a... issue between you whether you shouted armed police or you didn't. [Beaumont:] Of course yes. [speaker001:] There's no point in me um rehashing that. But why, you'd just forced the door open prior to arrest... why do you wait until you... got to the bedroom, indeed got the bedroom door open before shouting armed police. Why isn't it shouted... from the start so that everybody knows from the start who you are? [Beaumont:] Okay... right yep. Well the situation there is firstly there is little point in shouting... and identifying ourselves if, firstly there's nobody in the flat, or secondly er we're giving advance warning that we are coming along the corridor to a possible location, er... of somebody with a firearm. So what we would do then... is identify the fact that we've come into the building and therefore alerted everybody that... lo and behold down the corridor are coming police officers. [speaker001:] But I thought you were saying... in answer to a question my was putting to you that one of the reasons for shouting armed police was so that everybody knows you're armed police. [Beaumont:] That is correct yes, but only when we encounter somebody in front of us. Prior to that, definitely not. [speaker001:] You weren't more than... from the hall you were about six foot to the door to the master bedroom. [Beaumont:] I I can't recall. It was very close, yes. [speaker001:] Crossing that distance I suppose in a hurry was going to take you erm considerably less than a second. [Beaumont:] Definitely, we don't... if we were crossing an area that hadn't been secured by any other officer, so we were particularly concerned that we should get out of any possible danger area. [speaker001:] So I'd suggest again that the sensible place to shout armed police is as soon as you enter because the... fraction of a second between you getting from the hall to the bedroom isn't going to make any difference. [Beaumont:] Yes, I'd argue that it does make a difference, because... we are announcing the fact that... er we are coming along to to possibly alert somebody er that we were coming into a building and then hence we encounter even more problems. [speaker001:] You can't answer for the other officers but you can answer for yourself. Would you agree with Mr that on this sort of raid the adrenaline's flowing? [Beaumont:] Without a doubt, definitely. [speaker001:] Is a... specific gun, issued to a specific officer... or is it just er a... a group of guns issued to a group of officers? [Beaumont:] Er, the easiest way to answer that is er all of our guns have a unique serial number. So for example, if I went on er a job on Monday I could possibly draw gun number three but the following day if we went on a similar operation I might get gun number six. So, there is no specific gun issued to an individual officer... as his own personal weapon. [speaker001:] Yes I'm sorry I I [Beaumont:] Oh sorry [speaker001:] didn't mean that, what I meant was... on this er exercise... were, was it written down for instance that erm P C has Smith er Smith and Weston number thirty two? [Beaumont:] Yes that's correct yes. [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] In the heat of the operation is there anything to stop you handing it to one of the other officers if that should be necessary? [Beaumont:] No not at all my Lord. In fact er just prior to the start of the operation er I made a decision to change the shotgun... holders over.... I have to say now in at this moment in time, I can't remember why I did it, but it was an operational... decision that was made en route to the flats... that we swopped... shotguns with er another officer. [speaker001:] Sorry. very clear, you've got two officers with shotguns, do you mean that it's just he gave his shotgun to him and vice versa or... you nominated two different shotguns? [Beaumont:] I I recall that... I... in effect directed that an officer should carry a shotgun as opposed to the original officer that er was down for that weapon. [speaker001:] Yes... [speaker003:] the shotguns were just ordinary twelve bore double barrel shotguns were they? [Beaumont:] Er my Lord they're twelve bore, single barrelled pump action shotguns... with a slightly shorter length er than is a normal shotgun that you'd purchase in er... a firearms dealers. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker001:] Can you remember now... who the shotguns were originally issued to? [Beaumont:] I have to say I'm afraid I can't... erm I have thought about this yes. [speaker001:] Because the... the nettle I'm grasping is this... ah... it is said by the, both of them, that it was you who had what they call a long barrelled gun, it must be a shotgun. [Beaumont:] Yes. [speaker001:] So I was hoping that there'd be a record showing one way or the other but if [Beaumont:] Okay [speaker001:] you'd swopped over the record wouldn't help, is that right? [Beaumont:] That would be correct yes. [speaker001:] So [Beaumont:] But that is certainly... not the case, I did not have a shotgun. [speaker001:] Well I appreciate you deny it because er you said in answer to my friend that erm... as I am required by rules to put it, er I do put to you that yes, you did have a shotgun, perhaps erm borrowed from one of the officers, yes you did put it to... Mr head and you did tell him to er... er shut up and wait for C I D. [Beaumont:] I can assure everybody that that is not correct. That is totally wrong. [speaker001:] Now... what about Mrs? While you were in the bedroom... where was she? [Beaumont:] She was er still... in bed. [speaker001:] On... oh sorry, in, lying down or on sitting on the edge? [Beaumont:] Er... she'd sat up... er obviously when we moved into the bedroom... and from there... I'm not exactly sure what she was doing, in as much as she wasn't a threat so therefore perhaps I I didn't pay... that much attention to what she was doing. My direction was gazed... er drawn to the man. [speaker001:] Let me try and jog your memory. She says that when you... erm pointed the gun against her husband's head... she went towards you, grabbed by another officer. [Beaumont:] Right. [speaker001:] Do you disagree? [Beaumont:] Well I disagree in as much as I have said that I didn't have a shotgun... and... ignoring that fact then that I didn't have a shotgun she certainly did not make a lunge at me. [speaker001:] You don't seem able to recall what said either at the start or... er... somewhat later after he'd been handcuffed. What he says he was saying is who the fuck are you, recall that at all? [Beaumont:] No no I don't no. [speaker001:] Well do the best you can er I don't want exact words obviously but what was the burden of what he was the gist, the effects of what he was saying? [Beaumont:] With respect er I wasn't... paying too much attention to er to what was being said in as much as this possibly sounds negative but... our concern is not for what people are shouting at us... our concern is for whether we've got a threat er in a particular area, in this case the bedroom, and whether we can try and sort that threat out before... somebody is injured. Whether it's us or an innocent member of the public. [speaker001:] Yes but forgive me you must listen to what's said to you because somebody might be saying to you Lawrence is under the bed. [Beaumont:] Oh yes, yeah of course. [speaker001:] So you listened what roughly was said? [Beaumont:] I listened but if it's of no evidential value there is no point in listening because I've got so much on my mind at that time... erm to to sort out that threat in there that... I certainly can't recall what was exactly said or even along the lines of what was said. [speaker003:] But I erm, I don't think there's much between you and erm the plaintiff on this. You say when you had handcuffed him he said something to me asking along the lines of what were we doing in his house. [Beaumont:] That's correct my Lord yes. [speaker003:] Well he says when he had been handcuffed... I said who they were, who the fuck are you? Which sounds exactly the same... isn't that right? [Beaumont:] Along those lines my Lord yes. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] And er... again I have to put to you I... you've heard the say and I do think you'll disagree. [Beaumont:] Sure. [speaker001:] What I suggest to you is far more officers than the three you gave evidence of perhaps... five or even the full six at some stage found their way into that master bedroom. [Beaumont:] That is not correct in as much as every individual officer was tasked to an individual action and therefore there was no need to come into that bedroom... the area er if they'd have heard shouting or whatever in that bedroom they would have known not to come into that area because there was obviously a threat in there. [speaker001:] Well if what you say about this information that was in the master bedroom is true, they might have every reason to come into the master bedroom to see if er... the, who was sleeping in the. [Beaumont:] No because our training is such that there isn't... the officers just would not come into that bedroom at all because there is a threat in there and I'm dealing with that threat and unless I specifically call for another officer to come and give me a hand... there is no need to come in and in fact if anybody had've done they'd have been told to get out because... I've got a problem there and that's my problem. [speaker001:] So presumably two of the armed officers remained guarding this eleven year in bedroom two and two remained covering the... kitchen? [Beaumont:] No that's not correct because I've also already called up to P C into that master bedroom... when I've left or as I was... about to handcuff er the man. So we then have... three officers in there and I leave... leaving the two officers whilst I go and check the rest of the place out. [speaker001:] So who was left guarding in the small bedroom... one or two? [Beaumont:] I can't recall when, when you say guarding, I can't recall exactly what the officers were doing but that would have been... erm one of P C or P C or both, I don't really know who was erm sorting that side of it out. [speaker001:] You see I am, you can see what I'm suggesting to you, there's not much point in an armed officer guarding an eleven year old child it would have been obvious to go to the master bedroom, but you deny it. [Beaumont:] Right, the reason that er an officer would still stay... er with an eleven year old child, a three year old child, or... t to get to the realms of fantasy a ninety year old person is that person can still be at risk... not necessarily from the police officers, but from anybody else in that building and therefore they've got to remain er in that room until such time as I'm satisfied that everything is clear. [speaker001:] Again something that I just have to put. It wasn't you who helped Mr get some trousers on that was done by the C I D when they arrived? [Beaumont:] I have to say that it was me, I did that.... [speaker001:] Yes... and just finally, no idea at all where this information that was in the master bedroom [Beaumont:] I'm sorry I I don't know. [speaker004:] Yes examination.... You've had a number of questions... from about... whether you knew the man in the bedroom was Mr or. I just want to ask you this. Did it matter to you... at that time who it was? [Beaumont:] No... no definitely not. [speaker004:] Was your objective to be to secure him? [Beaumont:] That's right... and he, we would have done the same if we'd have found six men in there, er they all would have been secured until such time as I was happy that the the flat was clear. [speaker004:] And it's being put to you that not being it's been put to you straight, you're in effect lying about guns, that you had a shotgun. That's been put to you. Now, tell me, tell me, tell the jury again... does a team leader... is there any policy as to what gun a team leader should carry? [Beaumont:] No there seems no logic in taking a, a long barrelled weapon er in as much as the team leader perhaps has a few more responsibilities than the other officers have... and I would be going forward to handcuff... whoever was in that bo er in that bedroom. I cannot do that... with a long barrelled weapon. I couldn't do that er with the officer who had the shield. There, there's no way I can hand over a long barrelled weapon to that officer. So straightaway there... there is absolutely no reason at all for me to have a long barrelled weapon [speaker004:] Well it's... the plaintiff's saying is you had one... and and you handcuffed him, nevertheless, notwithstanding the fact that you had a long barrelled weapon. [Beaumont:] I could say a very smart answer to that but erm... I've got to carry a shotgun in one hand and handcuffs in the other and still deal with en e eventuality, I just can't do it. [speaker004:] And it's been, yet again, been put to you directly... that Mrs did indeed lunge at this imaginary weapon. Now I wan I want to ask you about that. In your, in your experience... do er members of the public lunge at armed police officers? [Beaumont:] They don't and to be dramatic they'd be very, very silly to do so... because I would take any step to avoid that happening. Whether that was... erm a child, whether it was a woman, anybody who tries to take my firearm from me would really have serious problems. [speaker004:] Because presumably if anyone was to get your firearms,. [Beaumont:] They will use it to shoot me, and I, that will not happen... ever. [speaker004:] So in reality had Mrs tried what has been suggested she may well have been struck. [Beaumont:] She definitely would have been struck. [speaker004:] And she would have no doubt told about that. [Beaumont:] I'm sure. [speaker004:] Perhaps a matter of.... And finally, erm again we've been told that you either not remembering or you're lying about the trousers. Is that something you can easily forget, pulling a man's trousers on when he's got handcuffs on and lying on his front? [Beaumont:] I remember absolutely one hundred percent doing that, and I have to say... that if I was faced with a similar situation again of a naked man, I really don't know if I'd bother to put his trousers on. [speaker004:] Thank you very much. further re-examination. [speaker003:] Well just, just remind us a little bit, now... y you have been very definite, you had... a hand gun. [Beaumont:] Yes my Lord yes. [speaker003:] And not a shot gun. [Beaumont:] Definitely. [speaker003:] What did erm... the others have? [Beaumont:] Okay my Lord. [speaker003:] You you immediately erm... followed the officer with the shield. [Beaumont:] Yes my Lord. [speaker003:] What did he have? [Beaumont:] He had... er a revolver that was holstered throughout the entire operation to the best of my knowledge that was the case. [speaker003:] And anything else? [Beaumont:] No my Lord no. [speaker003:] And the shield of course. [Beaumont:] That's correct yes. [speaker003:] And what about the others? [Beaumont:] Er P C would have had a shield... and a revolver that once again would have been holstered.... P C would have had a revolver... that I would expect to have been drawn. [speaker003:] Yes. [Beaumont:] P C had a shot gun... and P C had a shot gun.... [speaker003:] Yes... yes thank you. [speaker004:] My Lord there's just one point I wonder whether I can clarify. [speaker003:] Yes certainly [speaker004:] This is a... P C and had a shot gun. [Beaumont:] Each, yes. [speaker004:] Each. Did they also have a revolver each? [Beaumont:] Yes I beg your pardon. Yeah, my fault my Lord, yes they both did but... those weapons would have been holstered. [speaker003:] Yes that makes up to the total number of guns.... Yes thank you.... Thank you Sergeant. [Beaumont:] Thank you my Lord. [speaker003:] Yes Mr. [Bates:] Yes my Lord can I say w, your Lordship says that and for the benefit of the jury, that... with the subsequent officers objections I'm not going to take them through their training or their. [speaker003:] No no certainly not. No. Yes. [Bates:] Lord I call... P C.... [speaker006:] I swear by Almighty God. [Stuart:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker006:] That the evidence I shall give. [Stuart:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker006:] Shall be the truth. [Stuart:] Shall be the truth. [speaker006:] The whole truth. [Stuart:] The whole truth. [speaker006:] And nothing but the truth. [Stuart:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker006:] Mr could you tell the court your name, rank and station? [Stuart:] My name's at the moment I'm a temporary detective constable at police station. [speaker006:] Yes, well could I ask you to er tell us a little bit Lord the jury and... and in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job? [Stuart:] I was a police officer erm attached or er on a permanent basis with the operations support unit which we were based in er. [speaker006:] Is the operational support unit what we call the firearms unit? [Stuart:] That's correct. [speaker006:] Were you involved in an operation to enter? [Stuart:] Yes I was part of the firearms team that was er briefed to enter that department. [speaker006:] And when would you first, when did you first become involved in that operation? [Stuart:] Erm when we were... telephoned at home and called out... to report to Police Station erm I can't remember the exact time... that we got to Police Station and it would have been er... somewhere in the region of four o'clock in the morning. [speaker006:] Did you attend the briefing about the operation? [Stuart:] Yes I did. [speaker006:] Who conducted that briefing? [Stuart:] It was Sergeant. [speaker006:] Were you given... a weapon? [Stuart:] Directly after the briefing all the officers that were ordered to er or authorised to be armed er went to the armoury in Police Station and I was issued with a revolver. [speaker006:] And were you given a particular role for this operation? [Stuart:] My particular role erm in the operation was to carry one of the ballistic shields erm... and I also erm during the briefing was informed that I would be the first person through the front door and consequent consequently to the door of the master bedroom. [speaker006:] First of all have you ever handled a revolver of that kind before? [Stuart:] Yes on several occasions. [speaker006:] Have you ever had been a shield man before? [Stuart:] Erm, not that I recollect, only in training. [speaker006:] You'd used a shield in training. [Stuart:] Yes several times. [speaker006:] And in your mind what was the objective of the operation? [Stuart:] Erm it was to... hopefully apprehend... a person called that we believed to be er staying at that flat. [speaker006:] And can you perhaps confirm for us that you were wearing, tell us the gear explained by the previous witness. [Stuart:] Yeah, the clothes I had on was identical to that of P C. [speaker006:] every officer did, all the other officers had the same. [Stuart:] Everybody was dressed exactly the same. [speaker003:] Again you needn't ask them all that erm if Mr challenges. [speaker006:] my Lord.... some difficulty breaking the door down, is that your recollection? [Stuart:] Yes. [speaker006:] And... let's move on from that and when the door was broken down what did you do? [Stuart:] As soon as the, the door was cleared from the door frame er giving us sufficient room for myself to get through with the the large C-shield... with myself and... P C... ran the few paces down the hall way to the door at the end of the hall way. [speaker006:] Now just, let's just pause there and take it in stages. At that stage had you said or shouted anything? [Stuart:] No. [speaker006:] What did you then do? [Stuart:] I then... as far as I can recollect, I can't remember whether the door was ajar or totally shut... erm I would have put my hand to the handle... and... once knowing the door was free from its its erm lock... I then pushed the door hard with the shield... make, knowing that it would then bang, hopefully bang against the back wall. [speaker006:] You say hopefully bang against... the back wall, why's that? [Stuart:] Erm because it's part of our training. Any interior door, even exterior doors... we push them back as far as they possibly would go. It gives us more chance... to know that there is no object or person behind it. [speaker006:] And after you'd opened the door what did you do? [Stuart:] I positioned myself in the entrance to the doorway sufficiently enough to be able to see through the er... the window we have in the shield erm to see... quickly into the room to see er what's in the room and if there are any persons in the room. [speaker006:] And what did you see? [Stuart:] I saw movements from... from er the far side of the room, erm which... with, due to the light, erm I could distinguish as being human beings but er... not immediately what sex they were but I could see enough... to say that they were persons. [speaker006:] And did you er do anything... more at that stage? [Stuart:] Erm I just moved... probably a half a pace... so P C would get exactly the same view as myself. [speaker006:] Yes... and then what did he or you then do? [Stuart:] Erm at that stage... erm P C then shouted armed police, raise your hands. [speaker006:] Pause there. H how did he shout those words? [Stuart:] As loud as he could. [speaker006:] Do you think the... the occupants of the bed would have heard that? [Stuart:] Most definitely.... [speaker006:] What, what did you then see happening? [Stuart:] We then p positioned ourselves further into the room er P C obviously was still with me behind the shield erm... once we'd got ourselves in a in a better position, as far as we were concerned, P C then started talking... to the people, erm who were in the bed. [speaker006:] Yes... and... it's probably slightly repetitive but tell us briefly what he managed to do. [Stuart:] Well first of all erm... we wanted to find the light switch. [speaker006:] Yes. [Stuart:] Erm... so we then moved back towards the doorway erm and then P C... requested the persons in the bed to tell him where the light switch was, which a male voice told him the approximate area where the light switch was. Erm, he found the light switch, put the light on... and er. [speaker006:] Pause there. Up until this point had you drawn your gun from its holster? [Stuart:] I didn't draw my weapon at any time whilst I was in the flat. [speaker006:] And just help us with this, if you can remember. What sort of weapon did... P C have? [Stuart:] A revolver. [speaker006:] Could it have been a shot gun do you think? [Stuart:] No way. [speaker006:] You got the light on, what do you then see? [Stuart:] I saw... a white male... nearest to us, in in a double bed which was at the other end of the the the bedroom. Behind him was a black woman... and I believe two small children.... At that time P C then was speaking to the man... telling him to get out of the bed. [speaker006:] Did the man get out of bed? [Stuart:] Yes he did. [speaker006:] And what then occurred? [Stuart:] The man with his ar his hands up in the air... walked towards us a few paces and then P C ordered him to go down onto his knees slowly and then consequently end up on his chest... with his arms outstretched. [speaker006:] And er... was the man wearing any clothes? [Stuart:] No he was naked. [speaker006:] What did P C do after the man was lying outstretched on the floor? [Stuart:] He then told him that he was going to go to move towards him to er to handcuff him... erm... this is when... I f I f I believe this is the t the moment when P C P C to come into the room... erm. [speaker006:] Was it apparent to you why he would call for P C to come into the room? [Stuart:] Yes... erm it was obvious because... if he's already told the man he's going to move forward, to handcuff him... erm he will not move forward to a person with his gun er in his hand. So I knew that he was calling P C into the room to give him cover. I couldn't give him cover... because the see shield is is quite a heavy cumbers cumbersome thing and it has two handles behind it... erm and they are obviously the means of holding it up and f for directing it wherever you want so I'm holding this all the time so he can't pass his weapon to me... and he can't put his weapon in my holster because my gun was in the holster. [speaker006:] What about just putting his weapon on the ground? [Stuart:] It's it's never done. [speaker006:] So... did put his gun in his holster? [Stuart:] He put it in his own holster and he put the er thumb strap over t to secure it in the holster. [speaker006:] Yes... a and then what? [Stuart:] He then moved forward to the person on the ground and handcuffed his hands behind his back. [speaker006:] And whilst he was doing that operation where was P C? [Stuart:] I can't... exactly remember which side of of the person on the who was lying on the ground, P C was but he was in a position where he was not putting himself... er he was covering the person lying on the ground... but he wasn't covering to the point of fact that P C erm would have to walk in front of his shot gun. [speaker006:] Right.... After... the man was handcuffed... did PC do anything else?... [Stuart:] Erm yes he, I believe it th th that stage was when er... he said we'll put y we'll pus we'll find some clothes for you mate... erm, I I do recollect P C going... I think to the foot of the double bed or near to the base of the double bed where he found a pair of erm... jeans and I do remember him checking the pockets erm and then helping... or trying like put the jeans on on the man that was lying on the ground still handcuffed. He obviously had to get him up f erm... sort of rolled him over... er one way then the other to be of but the er... the legs of the jeans on. [speaker006:] Did you remain in that room with your shield until you were called away by P C? [Stuart:] Yes. [speaker006:] In other words,w was that an established position for you in this operation? [Stuart:] That was my, that was my objective i for the master bedroom, I had no other objective unless obviously the scenario changed. [speaker006:] Yeah.... Did you see... P C... point a gun of any description... into the back of Mr head? [Stuart:] I saw P C pointing his shot gun in the direction... of the man lying on the ground. [speaker006:] Yes. [Stuart:] Erm I wouldn't say he was pointing at his head... it was just in the general direction of him. [speaker006:] Yes well it's being suggested by the... plaintiff that in fact it was shoved into the back behind his right ear... like like I'm doing with my fingers. [Stuart:] No at no time did P C get that close to the person lying on the ground. [speaker003:] Then how far was he away? [Stuart:] He w [speaker003:] How far was the end of his... gun away? [Stuart:] It would be at least two, three, four feet... at least my Lord. [speaker006:] Whilst you were in that bedroom throughout the operation did you see any other officer point any sort of gun into the back of Mr head? [Stuart:] No. [speaker006:] And just finally.... Are you able to give us an estimate of the time that elapsed between breaking the door in... and being called away by your team leader? [Stuart:] I would estimate... erm three four minutes the whole operation.... [speaker006:] Yes thank you. If you could just wait there, there'll be some more questions for you. P C as he then was, P M as he now is gave evidence that he only shouted armed police once.... and I don't think... you gave evidence that you shouted armed police yourself, so is it right that it was only shouted one time... just immediately after the second door opened? [Stuart:] As far as I reco can recollect, yes. [speaker006:] My... these they were, my recollection may be wrong, I thought it had been put to the yesterday and was... that it was shouted a number of times but, you were there, it was only shouted once. [Stuart:] As as far as I can recollect. [speaker006:] The only other thing... that... you heard... Sergeant say that some how at the briefing... he'd been given information that was likely to be in the master bedroom. Do you recall anything being said at the briefing to that effect and if so who by? [Stuart:] The only thing I can recollect from the briefing in relation to the operation and the way that was, it was erm... o it was executed.... We knew... for definite that it was only a two bedroomed flat... and that is one of the reasons we went in at the time we did, hoping that everyb e every person in that flat would be asleep. [speaker006:] Yes. [Stuart:] And we had two shields, we had two separate teams to go immediately to the two bedrooms which, in our er... esti est estimations, that will be where... any adults were more likely to be in the flat. [speaker006:] Oh yes, you and I are entirely at one on that erm. [Stuart:] Well that's, that's well that's all I can recollect in relation to why we did it the way we did. [speaker006:] I'd go a little bit further and say well it'd be much more likely that husband and wife would be in the master bedroom with in the small bedroom, but as you say... er... the adults or anybody indeed in the flat is likely to be in the bedrooms at that time, but Sergeant you see went a bit further and said that at the briefing, somehow... he got information that was likely to be in the master bedroom so I understand your evidence, you certainly didn't get that impression at the brief. [Stuart:] Erm... I I don't recollect. [speaker006:] My Lord I have no re-examination, if you Lordship has any questions? [speaker003:] No thank you. [speaker006:] Thank you Mr.... I call er... P C.... Would you raise this in your hand and. I swear by Almighty God. [Louis:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker006:] That the evidence I shall give. [Louis:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker006:] Shall be the truth. [Louis:] Shall be the truth. [speaker006:] The whole truth. [Louis:] The whole truth. [speaker006:] And nothing but the truth. [Louis:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker006:] Mr could you again give your... name, rank and station... currently. [Louis:] Louis, currently temporary Detective Constable at. [speaker003:] Could you just spell your name... so that I can get it right? [Louis:] [spelling] []. [speaker003:] Yes. [Louis:] [spelling] []. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker006:] And Mr in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job? [Louis:] My job in er December nineteen ninety eighty eight was er a member of the... forces... operational support unit erm a firearms officer with that team... an also an external instructor with er police. [speaker006:] And er when did you start as a firearms officer? [Louis:] In nineteen eighty three sir. [speaker006:] Were you involved in the operation to enter? [Louis:] Yes I was. [speaker006:] And did you attend the briefing with Sergeant? [Louis:] Yes I did yes. [speaker006:] Were you given... a weapon or weapons to carry? [Louis:] Yes I was sir. [speaker006:] And what were those? [Louis:] They were a er revolver and er a shot gun. [speaker006:] And is that a Smith and Weston revolver? [Louis:] It would be so yes. [speaker006:] And the shot gun, is that a single barrelled twelve bore? [Louis:] Pump action shot gun yes. [speaker006:] Pump action.... And er... Sergeant mentioned that the barrel was slightly shorter than ordinary... ones you buy in the shop. [Louis:] That is correct sir. [speaker006:] And is that because you'd sawd it off or? [Louis:] Oh no, they're actually bought from the manufacturers like that. [speaker006:] I rather thought... just wanted to contrast it with the other case and er... it may not be obvious to the jury but why, why did you want a shot gun that's a little shorter? [Louis:] Erm the shot gun is preferable in these cases, the fact that er they are used generally as a support weapon... erm should we ent encounter any problems in the area that I was covering, this was thought to be the best weapon capable of doing that job. [speaker006:] Do you remember... when coming into the flat, do you remember who entered it first? [Louis:] Into the er back bedroom. [speaker006:] Yes. [Louis:] Er P C. [speaker006:] And er wh where were you in the order of entry? [Louis:] My job was er to actually open the door and then... once the door was open the team would enter the flat and I together with P C, would er... cover the hallways inside the flat. [speaker006:] Mr were you actually were you the cover man? [Louis:] Yes. [speaker006:] Is it... usual for the cover men to have a revolver and a shot gun? [Louis:] Yes it is sir, yes. [speaker006:] But again, I think you've already part answered it, why why is that that the er role for cover men, why do they get those weapons? [Louis:] Again that is the weapon that is suitable for that type of job. [speaker006:] And you're referring here to the shot gun? [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] During the operation, I'm going to come back to the door in a minute, during the operation which gun were you carrying? [Louis:] Shot gun at all times sir. [speaker006:] Did you at any stage draw your revolver? [Louis:] No sir. [speaker006:] Now, going back to the incident with the door. Tell us what happened there. [Louis:] Well having er... carried this appliance nine flights of stairs to the ninth floor of the flat erm my objective was to gain entry... into the flat onsh, sorry once the okay was given... erm, again the objective was to gain entry into the flat as quickly and as quietly as possible... er, by my mistake the equipment was not placed one hundred percent correctly... and began to malfunction.... er... It started to make er a bit of a whirring noise, and a bit of a loud noise and again the objective was to gain entry quickly and quietly. I made the decision to abort... using the apparatus and revert to an alternative er means. [speaker006:] Which was? [Louis:] A sledgehammer sir. [speaker006:] Did you... how many strikes did it take to get entry? [Louis:] At least once, no more than twice. [speaker006:] The sophisticated... technique had not worked [Louis:] Yeah, exactly [speaker006:] back to the old fashioned police technique. [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] The... when the other officers attended the flat, where. [speaker003:] How long did it take from the time you started what was going to be the quick, silent operation until you finished and got in? [Louis:] If I just can explain first er, Sergeant has already point out my Lord. The piece of equipment is hydraulic, er once the equipment is placed on... it takes a total of between twelve and fifteen seconds... for it to operate totally. It started to make... er a bit of a horrible noise around the ten second mark and from there... it was aborted immediately, erm the sledgehammer was handy and it was just a matter of seconds after that. [speaker006:] So do we understand from that... that in the event it made only a few seconds difference, if at all? [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] When the other officers had entered the flat... did you go? [Louis:] I would remained erm... close to the doorway covering the internal hallway... er effectively looking down towards the kitchen and the living room area. [speaker006:] And did you er... did you hear of anything, anyone shouting? [Louis:] Yes I did sir, yes. [speaker006:] What did you hear? [Louis:] I quite plainly heard... erm an officer, I'm not sure who it was, er shout armed police. [speaker006:] And you were standing in the hall way? [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] Did you remain in the hall way? [Louis:] Until directed to otherwise, yes sir. [speaker006:] And who directed you to go other elsewhere? [Louis:] I heard my name being called, it may well have been Louis erm come forward and... I heard it, I understood it to be P C voice. [speaker006:] Yes... and so where did you go? [Louis:] To the main bedroom sir. [speaker006:] And when you went in there, were you directed or instructed to do anything? [Louis:] Er my only instruction from P C was cover me. [speaker006:] And... state the jury how you covered him. [Louis:] Well... er by the time I arrived at the doorway to the room... erm a male... person was lying on the floor, spreadeagled er and my job would have been to cover him with the shot gun er to enable P C to go forward and handcuff the chap. [speaker006:] Would P C come between you and the suspect? [Louis:] No sir. [speaker006:] It's rather obvious but... why's that? [Louis:] If erm... things should start to go wrong and the chap... on the floor erm was to make any movement or s sudden movement towards either P C or any other piece of equipment in the room which may cause injury or damage to ourselves or himself, it would be down to me to challenge that man... er and allow P C to get back behind er the ballistic shield. [speaker006:] W when you were covering P C were you sitting down or standing up? [Louis:] Standing up. [speaker006:] And can you tell us if your hands, your fists? [Louis:] I would have been... more or less like that sir. [speaker006:] Yes... and er you haven't changed in height since nineteen eighty eight? [Louis:] No sir. [speaker006:] So your gun would have been at least four and a half to five foot off of one surface of the floor? [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] And it's not being too necessarily but at any stage did you get that gun and shove it... into the back of Mr head? [Louis:] No definitely not sir. [speaker003:] Er ha what did you estimate, four and a half to five feet? [speaker006:] I'm. [speaker003:] I think you're a little bit much. [speaker006:] Am I sorry am I. [speaker003:] Well probably. [speaker006:] It's about chest height is that what were you're saying? [Louis:] The gun would have been Slightly below my chest. [speaker003:] Yes. [Louis:] And effectively three and a half to four foot off the ground. [speaker003:] the front of the gun would be. [Louis:] Sorry sir. [speaker003:] The front of the gun would be nearer to your waist as you're demonstrating. [Louis:] The barrel of the weapon isn't that long, there's the erm... the butt is in me shoulder. [speaker003:] Yes. [Louis:] And the barrel would've been... more or less, well about that in height sir. [speaker006:] Well what what do you think do if I estimate. [Louis:] About three and a half foot from the ground. [speaker003:] Yes so I I three and half I think sounds better than your four and half to five but we'll [speaker006:] Can I also tell you... as a... a did you stick that gun into the back, behind the right ear of... Mr? [Louis:] Most definitely not sir. [speaker006:] Did you see anyone else do that? [Louis:] No sir. [speaker006:] With a shot gun. [Louis:] No sir. [speaker003:] And how far... do you estimate... the gun was... from... the man's head?... distance. [Louis:] I would have been standing erm about two or three foot away from him anyway sir, so that, including the distance... height wise, I could have been... er from the end of my weapon... to his head or any part of his body... there would have been a maximum of between four to five feet at least. [speaker006:] A a and is that... sort of distance and the sort of... posture you adopted... er consistent with your training? [Louis:] Yes sir it's standard practice. [speaker006:] Standard practice.... How long... do you think you remained guarding... Mr on the floor? [Louis:] Altogether sir or. [speaker006:] Altogether yes. [Louis:] A matter of a couple of minutes. [speaker006:] Did Mr remain naked throughout that time? [Louis:] No he didn't... er P C found some trousers, I'm not sure where he got them from... er and put them on for him. [speaker006:] And... finally I'd like your estimate as to the length of time before, between your sledgehammer finally knocking the door down and you being called out of the flat. [Louis:] No more than four minutes sir. [speaker006:] Thank you very much, if you just wait there there will be some more questions. Getting into the flat... the er hydraulic door opener didn't work so you erm, you knocked the door down with a sledgehammer. [Louis:] That's correct sir. [speaker006:] P S told the jury... not three quarters of an hour ago that the automatic door opener didn't work, it was taken off re-fitted and the automatic door opener was used... to open the door. I imagine you stick to your account and it follows that his account is not right. [Louis:] I I was aware, when P C was saying it was a slight contradiction, all I can suggest sir is that er whilst I was putting the door in P C would have been controlling his troops [speaker006:] Troops? [Louis:] ... er ready to enter the flat, he wouldn't have been paying attention to what I was doing. [speaker006:] Sorry I I simply didn't hear the first part of that lot sir. [Louis:] Sorry. [speaker003:] What, what, what he said no doubt P C was looking after his troops and he wasn't paying as much attention to what I was doing as I was taking. [speaker006:] But how far away from you was he? [Louis:] I don't know sir, I was concentrating on the door. [speaker006:] It was only a couple of feet or a yard wasn't it? [Louis:] If you say so sir, the only thing I can suggest is that fact that er... that the noise the door opener was making and the fact I opened the door very shortly afterwards, he can only assume the door opener worked. [speaker006:] Look forgive me and were the first of the two troops going in through that door. They're gonna go in through that door the second it goes down, they weren't loitering at the end of the passage, they were right by the door weren't they? [Louis:] That's correct sir, P C was behind the shield like he was told to be. [speaker006:] And somehow missed the sledgehammer. The only other thing I have to put to you is this that I've already put to er... what we allege went on in that bedroom. Are you sure that... Sergeant didn't take the shot gun from you... and... put it against er Mr head? [Louis:] No sir, because that wouldn't allow him to do the job he was there to do. [speaker006:] The only other thing is this. You're in the hall... you heard one shout of armed police. [Louis:] Yes sir. [speaker006:] Any other shouters along. [Louis:] Not as far as I'm aware sir no. [speaker006:] Great. Lord I have no re-examination. [speaker003:] Yep thank you. [speaker006:] Thank you Mr. [speaker003:] Mr [speaker006:] P C... I swear by Almighty God. [Gary:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker006:] That the evidence I shall give. [Gary:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker006:] Shall be the truth. [Gary:] Shall be the truth. [speaker006:] The whole truth. [Gary:] The whole truth. [speaker006:] And nothing but the truth. [Gary:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker006:] Like everyone else can you give your... name and current rank and your station. [Gary:] I'm Gary... stat erm Constable Pe P C... and I'm stationed at. [speaker006:] And in December of ninety eighty eight what was your... job? [Gary:] I was a member of the operational support unit. [speaker006:] And [clears throat] excuse me, for how long had you been a firearms officer? [Gary:] At that time... just getting on two years. [speaker006:] Were you involved in the entry and search of...? [Gary:] I was. [speaker006:] Did you attend the briefing? [Gary:] Yes the briefing was held in the early hours... of Monday morning.... [speaker006:] And were you issued with a weapon? [Gary:] Yes I had a er Smith and Weston revolver. [speaker006:] Were you given a particular task or role in this job? [Gary:] Yes erm... my task was, together with er P C, to go into bedroom number two. [speaker006:] And... what was P C role in that? [Gary:] P C was er carrying a ballistic shield... as already mentioned. [speaker006:] What did you understand the prime objective of the operation [Gary:] Erm to apprehend a er... state convict... erm Mr. [speaker006:] And what did you understand... about the level of force to be used? [Gary:] Erm... reasonable force to be used in the circumstances that dictated it. [speaker006:] Do you carry... one of the cards that you probably saw P C refer to? [Gary:] I did at the time... erm I no longer am authorised to carry. [speaker006:] Are you in a different job sir? [Gary:] Yes that's correct. [speaker006:] Do you remember whereabouts in the order you were in getting into the flat? [Gary:] I was... the fourth one going in erm... there was P C, P C, P C and then myself. [speaker006:] And we've heard how P C... linked up with his shield man. Can you tell us did you do the likewise or? [Gary:] Yes it's standard er... training standard operation... procedure to do that. [speaker006:] And... where did you let him go? [Gary:] We followed directly behind erm... the first two officers, went down the corridor and er... then straight into the second bedroom. [speaker006:] And which of the two of you... then went into that room first? [Gary:] P C... as he was carrying the shield and afforded all the protection to both he and I. [speaker006:] Did... either... you or him shout anything? [Gary:] No b erm... we didn't encounter... er anyone and so there was no need to give the er warning. [speaker006:] Was the door open or shut? [Gary:] Erm that I can't recollect. [speaker006:] You after P C protection of his shield. What did you then do? [Gary:] I followed in behind him... erm the curtains were drawn, the room was... in reasonable darkness and er I switched on the light. [speaker006:] And... what did you see? [Gary:] Erm, immediately as... we went in it was er... a very poorly furnished room erm... I'm going in... there's a window on the far side... and there was a small single... bed erm which... to all intents and purposes appeared un-made at the time and there was a duvet covering it [speaker006:] Yes... and... switching the light on and looking around what did you do? [Gary:] Our first erm... priority was to establish that there was no one in that room. [speaker006:] Yes. [Gary:] As already said... the bed appeared un-made [speaker006:] Yes. [Gary:] ... erm and as such... a likely hiding place for someone to be was beneath the bed, erm I then... lifted the bed with one hand, as I had my revolver drawn in the other hand, erm and then seeing no one was underneath it, I I dropped it again. [speaker006:] Yes... and... just at that stage did you... notice anyone else in the bedroom? [Gary:] Erm no I I didn't er it wasn't until we searched [speaker006:] on completing that did you notice anyone there, did you hear anyone in the bedroom? [Gary:] No one at all. [speaker006:] Did you look anywhere else in the bedroom? [Gary:] Yes we looked in the er wardrobe, there were a built-in wardrobes... there. [speaker006:] Did you... take it he was still a whether there was an armed man or any sort of man in that? [Gary:] I had to erm until... the whole of the h the premises had been searched and secured... then I had to assume that there was someone in that room until the contrary was shown. [speaker006:] And... on searching it what did you think? [Gary:] That the room was empty. [speaker006:] On discovering the room was empty, so far as you thought, what did you do? [Gary:] We then proceeded to... search and secure the main living room area and the kitchen area. [speaker006:] You said we.... [Gary:] Again again Lieutenant er Constable. [speaker006:] You searched the kitchen and the living room area. Did you find anything? [Gary:] No. [speaker006:] What did you then do? [Gary:] Erm... my attention was then brought to the fact that er there was a child in... bedroom er two. [speaker006:] Was that the bedroom you looked in? [Gary:] That was the bedroom I'd looked in. [speaker003:] And when you say your attention was drawn, how was it drawn? [Gary:] Er another officer in the, in the... in the building told me. [speaker003:] Good. [Gary:] Which one it was I'm not sure. [speaker006:] You can't remember? [Gary:] No. [speaker006:] What did, on hearing that information what did you do? [Gary:] I erm... actually went back to the room... to see erm... what condition or what the child was was doing there. [speaker006:] Did you see anything? [Gary:] Er yes I saw a small... erm Afro-Caribbean child... erm... near the bed, whereabouts he was I I I I'm not sure but it was near the bed. [speaker006:] And er what condition was... the child in? [Gary:] Er she was visibly er upset, she wasn't hysterical, just er crying. [speaker006:] Did you say anything to her? [Gary:] No P C er was... erm dealing with her at the time. [speaker006:] Did did you recognise at that were you in court yesterday? [Gary:] Yes I was. [speaker006:] Did you recognise that young child? [Gary:] No I couldn't say that that was the child, erm possibly she's grown a bit, quite considerably. [speaker006:] After... seeing the child was upset did you do anything else? [Gary:] Erm... by this time... the... mother er in the other room... erm had emerged and I helped bring the other children into the er main main room. [speaker006:] How did you help to do that? [Gary:] Oh I I carried er one of the children... into the, into the main room. [speaker006:] And upon putting that child in the room, what did you then do? [Gary:] Erm... the premises was by now secured... so I left the premises. [speaker006:] If you had... seen... the young girl who was apparently in the bed... what would you have done? [Gary:] My actions would have been totally different, erm. [speaker006:] What would you have done? [Gary:] What would I have done, I would have asked her to to er get out of the bed, walk towards me and come out into the hall way where she could have been... looked after by one of the other officers, and al allow me to get on with my main task in hand.... [speaker006:] And just finally this, er... P C can you give us an estimate of the time between going into that flat and being called away when it was secure. [Gary:] Er three to four minutes max. [speaker006:] Thank you very much if you wait there there'll be some more questions. We've got a photograph... of... Julie taken er... very shortly after the incident it's the one that everybody saw yesterday, have a look. Definitely. the one in the bed.... No it was identified by Mr and er the bed with Julie si sitting on it, taken the day after the incident. The day after. Now er... she's not here to hear me say it, ungallantly she's... Julie's overweight now and she was pretty overweight then wasn't she? [Gary:] Erm... n I as I say I couldn't see her... the bed it was it was a duvet... and. You did have a chance to see her when you went back and she was standing by the bed with the light on. That is approximately what, exactly... the size and the height and everything else that Julie was at that time, isn't it? Again I j... only from the picture I'd say she is, er wasn't that size. I'd no difficulty in lifting... a single bed with covers underneath with one hand. From a erm a low position. [speaker006:] Yeah I appreciate that. What I'm going to suggest to you however... is er... a child of that size being covered by a duvet... you really couldn't have missed... if... you bothered to look. [Gary:] Again I... I showed all due diligence I could do in the situation. The bed appeared un-made and... for all intents and purposes I didn't see her, had I seen her... erm the situation would have been very different. I'm very sorry and erm... that this... happened erm but I can't say any more than that. Had had I seen her it would have been totally different. [speaker006:] I appreciate that Constable. did mist er Constable... have a shield? [Gary:] He did. [speaker006:] Let me make it absolutely clear... I'm not suggesting er on behalf of Julie that there was any wickedness in your mind or anything. What I am suggesting is... you knew there was an armed man in the flat, you were worried he was under the bed and... if... only concern was to get that bed up and over to check he wasn't there, you didn't bother to wait to get Julie off it. [Gary:] No... erm as I say, I never saw her in there... erm I looked under the bed... saw nothing was there, I just dropped it with one hand. [speaker006:] If... was going to be in that room... in the vicinity of the bed... presumably two places he could be, under the duvet or under the bed. [Gary:] Or in the cupboard. [speaker006:] Yes in the vicin I I didn't know the cupboards were near the bed, but yes, in relation to the bed... those two places... would it have taken a... fraction of a second to strip off the duvet to check what was under it. [Gary:] It would er but as I've already said the bed looked made er totally... un-slept in... it looked as though it had just been made up from new and un-slept in which is why I took that course of action. Had it... I seen that there was someone sleeping in the bed my course of action would have been otherwise. [speaker006:] So by unslept in you mean very tidy. [Gary:] It was... brushed down, it didn't look as though anyone had slept in it or was sleeping in it. [speaker006:] Well er, I put the suggestion to you that I just said. What I suggest is you realised you couldn't have failed to realise she was there, but you were in too much of a hurry to... get the bed up and check wasn't under there. [Gary:] No that isn't the case. [speaker006:] Very good. Just one matter of information sir.... He said it would have taken a fraction of a section to pull the duvet off. How long would it take you to fire a gun? [Gary:] Fraction of a second... And... a few weeks earlier there was a similar incident with a child in a bed... er... and er all our minds were on that as well. [speaker006:] Yes... and er... it's been suggested the final thing that was suggested that you realised she was there. [Gary:] Erm no I didn't realise she was there. [speaker006:] Yes. Thank you very much... erm I've no further questions my Lord does... your Lordship any? [speaker003:] No, thank you very much. [speaker006:] Thank you.... I give two more witnesses for the defence. [speaker003:] Well let's get on with it... you've got one of them. [speaker006:] I call... Mr please.... Could you take the book in your hand and repeat after me, I swear by Almighty God. [Brendan:] I swear by Almighty God. [speaker006:] That the evidence I shall give. [Brendan:] That the evidence I shall give. [speaker006:] Will be the truth. [Brendan:] Will be the truth. [speaker006:] The whole truth. [Brendan:] The whole truth. [speaker006:] And nothing but the truth. [Brendan:] And nothing but the truth. [speaker006:] Thank you. Mr your current... your name and current rank and your station. [Brendan:] I'm Brendan er Police Constable in police and I'm currently stationed at... police station. [speaker006:] And in December of eighty nine what was your job? [Brendan:] I was a member of the operational support unit stationed at. [speaker006:] And... how long... had you been a firearms officer? [Brendan:] Eighteen months. [speaker006:] And it can you confirm you went to, through the sort of training described by Sergeant? [Brendan:] Yes exactly the same. [speaker006:] And did you attend... a briefing in connection with a search on? [Brendan:] Yes I attended the briefing. [speaker006:] And what time of the day was that? [Brendan:] Er quarter past five in the morning. [speaker006:] And were you issued after that brief briefing with a weapon? [Brendan:] I was issued after the immediately after the briefing I was issued with two weapons... a revolver and a shot gun.... [speaker006:] And... were you issued with any other equipment? [Brendan:] Immediately prior to the entry of the house... the... plans slightly changed and I was issued with the see shield and my... shot gun was given to one of the other officers. [speaker006:] I it is actually, perhaps rather obvious you can't carry two guns and a shield. [Brendan:] That's right and I've carried the see shield on operations before. [speaker006:] You'd done you'd done it before? [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] So again did you shield man [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] And you had one gun being a revolver. [Brendan:] The revolver which was holstered with the strap over it. [speaker006:] Did you at any stage take the revolver out of the holster? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] And who was your partner in... your group? [Brendan:] P C [speaker006:] What do you understand P C about the use of force... in these sort of operations? [Brendan:] To use such force that is reasonable in the circumstances. [speaker006:] Can you remember where you were in the order of those people entering the flat? [Brendan:] Third. [speaker006:] And... where did you go? [Brendan:] Having followed... P C and P C... as he was at that time through the door, I went immediately to the bedroom on the right hand side, the second bedroom. [speaker006:] And how close behind you was P C? [Brendan:] Actually touching. [speaker006:] He he couldn't remember, can you remember whether the door was open or closed? [Brendan:] I think it was closed. [speaker006:] And... what did you do? [Brendan:] Pushed it open... as hard as I could. [speaker006:] And again is it, for the jury, was it the same reason as P C did it? [Brendan:] Exactly the same to make sure there's nobody behind it... and if there is they would be quickly located. [speaker006:] Did you look into the room? [Brendan:] I shuffled into the room... got out of the doorway... and the light was turned on, I can't remember with whether I turned it on or whether P C turned it on. [speaker006:] Throughout this period were you looking round your shield or... through the window? [Brendan:] Through the window... don't look round the shield.... [speaker006:] And did you see anything through that? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] Did you look at the bed? [Brendan:] Yes... I was looking [speaker006:] Did you see [Brendan:] everywhere that I could. [speaker006:] Did you see anyone in the bed? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] Did... P C then do anything? [Brendan:] P C and myself went round to the side of the bed and P C... lifted up the bed with one hand carrying the gun in his other hand. [speaker006:] Did you hear anything... any human sounds at that stage? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] Did you notice anything in the bed at that stage? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] After P C had done that, what did you do? [Brendan:] We then er... continued the search of the cupboards... went immediately from there across the hall way into the lounge, searched the lounge... through the lounge into the kitchen... searched the kitchen, through the kitchen into the bathroom.... searched the bathroom and then made my way to the door, the exit door. [speaker006:] Ye a an after you'd done that did you remain at the exit door or did you come back into the? [Brendan:] I was just going to the exit door when I saw the young girl s standing at the second bedroom, crying. [speaker006:] And... when you saw her what did you think? [Brendan:] I di I didn't know what to think. I didn't know where she'd come from, I didn't know whether sh come from that room or whether she'd come from the the main bedroom. [speaker006:] Did you... say anything to her? [Brendan:] Yeah I put the shield... up against the wall because I knew then that the whole... house had been cleared... and er bent down and asked her if she was alright. [speaker006:] Aha, did she say anything to you? [Brendan:] She said she was alright. [speaker006:] Did she look upset? [Brendan:] Oh she she was definitely upset. [speaker006:] And did you do anything more with her then? [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] Where did you go after speaking to the little girl? [Brendan:] Left the house, left the flat.... [speaker006:] Yes er, P C if you could just wait there there may be some more questions. Yes you were coming into a small bedroom with a [Brendan:] Yes [speaker006:] shield. That reaches down to the floor as I understand it. [Brendan:] Not quite my feet... just above my feet obviously I've I've got to move and it it's more of a shuffling... a quick shuffling movement. [speaker006:] Yes... erm [Brendan:] It is quite heavy. [speaker006:] Did you stop, do you stop just inside the door, did you with the shield?... [Brendan:] I would have moved slightly to the right, I w I was the first objective... while you're looking is to get out of the door. [speaker006:] Yes... and... at the same time your colleague er Constable is also sheltering behind the shield. [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] And what you can see is a bed? [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] The other side of the room. Presumably with room for somebody to hide underneath it. [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] Now... it must have been mustn't it, a possibility, if been there at all, that he was hiding under that bed? [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] Why... did then, didn't both you and your colleague advance behind the shield to the bed. Why did he rather walk entirely unprotected, apart from the body armour. [Brendan:] No no. It's not, it's not just one movement. You go in, get away from the door first, then both of us go round. [speaker006:] But you didn't both go to the bed with the shield, that's my point. You pretty much stayed on the, he advanced on the bed. [Brendan:] Well I'm... I'm sorry but I'm not a lot of use to him... if I let him just walk away from the shield. I go with him, he goes with me. [speaker006:] Well does it follow then that both of you went over to the bed, that's what I'm getting at. [Brendan:] Yes. [speaker006:] So both of you were standing [Brendan:] But then at some stage he had to move out from behind me to get the bed up. [speaker006:] Yes. Now that's the stage that I want to get to.... Whereabouts in relation to,w the bed was up against the wall wasn't it? [Brendan:] No I didn't think it was. [speaker006:] Was it just free standing in the middle of the room or was it against the wall? [Brendan:] As far as I can recall it was further away from the wall, there was a space for somebody to walk between the wall and the bed, it's not as shown in that photograph. [speaker006:] So [Brendan:] there is more room between [speaker006:] could you walk all the way round it or? [Brendan:] No it the the head of the bed was up against the far wall the... as you look in the room on the right. [speaker006:] So you could have been standing, you with your shield, at this point with Constable with you, either on one side of the bed or at the bottom of the bed or on the other side of the bed, where were you in fact standing?... [Brendan:] Nearer the foot of the bed. [speaker006:] Foot of the bed, nearer sorry, nearer the foot of the, at the side but near to the foot or does it? [Brendan:] All I can say is in the region of the foot of the bed. [speaker006:] You and Mr.... He then reaches out... picks up the foot of the bed as he said... and lifts it. [Brendan:] I can't remember if it was the foot of the bed or the side of the bed. [speaker006:] One or the other. [Brendan:] Must have been. [speaker006:] At that point... were both of you behind the shield or had he stepped out from behind? [Brendan:] He would have had to have reached out. [speaker006:] So he... well I knew he'd have to reach out [Brendan:] Yeah. [speaker006:] but that's only putting his hand out without being brutal about it, that's not as dangerous as... being coming out entirely from behind the shield. Which did he do,? [Brendan:] I can't I can't remember. [speaker006:] And the bed was tipped. [Brendan:] Yes... and then replaced on its legs. [speaker006:] Constable when he was giving evidence it only takes a second to fire a gun... wasn't that the reason that the bed was tipped because... it had to be checked quickly that wasn't underneath otherwise Constable may might have got shot. [Brendan:] No. What you've got to rea no what you got to realise is... the most obvious place for somebody would be on the bed... but we couldn't see anybody on the bed so the only other place is under the bed. [speaker006:] Well you say the most obvious place would be on the bed, if I may respectfully agree with you, also there actually was a rather fat eleven year old girl on the bed.... That's her evidence. [Brendan:] I know that now. [speaker006:] But the duvet wasn't stripped off. [Brendan:] No. [speaker006:] Even though that was as you put it, the obvious place for. [Brendan:] They say a fraction of a second, we we don't have fractions of seconds to play about with. [speaker006:] No. re-examination of this witness. [speaker003:] No thank you very much.... Now I believe you've got one more witness have you. [speaker006:] One more my Lord. [speaker003:] But I'm afraid that I must ride, because I'm... not at my next appointment... so. And the other witness is [speaker006:] W was the W P C... came in after... the armed officers went in. [speaker003:] I see yes. Well we'll hear her and then we'll complete the evidence at half past ten in the morning. The er jury are going to be given copies of these collator cards are they? [speaker006:] My Lord certainly that's my proposition unless my learned friend has any objection on that. [speaker003:] No... seeing as though they've been produced I've said I... all in favour of the jury seeing anything that's referred to... and then there, there's no mystery about it then. They can have a look at the originals if they like as well.

[Bill:] The child victims of war. Images that are now a daily occurrence in dozens of countries across the world. Millions of young lives have now been devastated. It's all placing an intolerable burden on charities like Save The Children who say far too often the international community is not pulling its weight. In Somalia the combination of war and famine claimed a quarter of a million children dead last year. Today in the capital Mogadishu a hundred thousand more driven from their homes, are dependent on food aid for survival. In Bosnia the war has been especially cruel on children. One estimate puts the number dead in Sarajevo alone at twelve hundred and some fourteen thousand wounded. In Northern Iraq over a hundred thousand Kurdish children are still unable to return to their homes after being forced to flee Saddam Hussein's army. Many are living in appalling conditions without clean water and proper sanitation. In Mozambique, more than two hundred thousand have been orphaned or separated from their families. Three quarters of a million children have been forced to seek refuge in neighbouring countries, others are disabled for life. In the West African republic of Liberia where eighty five per cent of the population have been displaced, children, some as young as eight are being placed in secure compounds to prevent them from going back to fight for the waring factions. [speaker002:] Children who've been given at a far too tender age, the terrible power of holding a loaded gun and be able to command everything in sight as a result of that, have actually got to get back and rediscover childhood. [Bill:] Lost innocence, a pattern that's sadly being repeated across the world's battle grounds. Bill Hamilton, B B C News. [Mike:] Can anybody fail, fail to be moved by those pictures. Children really are under fire throughout the world, literally and metaphorically. Even in those countries where the, the real firing has stopped, there's the aftermath. Many of the wars, most of the wars, are civil wars... and you know the bitterness, the lingering bitterness after a civil war doesn't help the children who have suffered from that war. Also just think of the troubles in our own Northern Ireland, right on our doorstep. Think of the problems that children have there. But even where there is no real warfare, man's inhumanity to children has caused serious deprivations of rights... and of benefits generally. Food, health... support, education, kindness,... care, affection. These are all... features of a child's life that they need. Otherwise children, without those, grow up physically,... psychologically... damaged and the purpose of Save The Children Fund... is to work to give children the chance of a better childhood... and the chance to grow up to be adults who won't repeat the sins... of their forefathers. Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this annual public meeting in this, our seventy forth anniversary year. Some of you er may take it amiss if I were to describe you as veterans... but my by contrast, this is my first annual public meeting and not just as chairman. I've never had the opportunity to attend one before. Although I have been a long time supporter. Today, her Royal Highness... Nick Hinton and his team will talk about the very impressive work... and the tasks that lie ahead in the fifty countries and the U K in which Save The Children operates. I I will talk about the fund as I found it in my capacity as a very recent chairman. A fresh pair of eyes. A fresh pair of eyes of a relative new boy... and the first thing I noticed was my family's reaction. It was as though they were saying to me, at last you're doing something worthwhile and respectable. My first impression was how well everything runs... and in... saying that I really am paying a tribute... to previous chairmen. For whose efforts on behalf of the fund I I really do thank them and I'd like to make a special thanks... to Lady Chandler, Lucy stepped into the breach as acting chair about a year ago and since I was elected has done a tremendous amount to help me settle in quickly and I hope effectively. I'm most impressed also with the hard work, the dedication and the, the sheer efficiency of the director general and his top team. I was talking, yesterday as it happened, to the chairman of another very large children's charity and I asked him how his, the spend, the annual spend of that charity was distributed between... the work of the charity, the purpose of the charity... and the support functions and he said about eighty twenty. Now I have to tell you that last year... we raised a hundred and thirteen million pounds... and of that... over ninety per cent, that's a hundred and four million pounds were actually spent on projects for children and I'm very proud of that ratio indeed... and I think it ought to give you, the raisers of money, a great deal of comfort because for a fund with two headquarters buildings... which operates all over the world... this is a distribution of funds of which to be proud. Now I've met... not many yet, but very impressive, a few very impressive field workers. I've not had a chance to visit abroad yet but I think I've got two visits booked next year to various remoter parts of the world, but I've met some who are on leave, recuperating... from the circumstances they've been in, sometimes illness, sometimes just the sheer tension of being under fire. Each country presents its challenges, some physically demanding, others morale sapping, there is disease, there are primitive conditions in which to live and work. I'd just like to mention one, Somalia. I'd like to pay a tribute to the courage of our people there, both the indigenous er workers for the fund and the ex-pats who've gone out there to lead that work. We're in touch with them every day, they refuse to leave and we're very grateful to them for their efforts. But those in the field, the front line... could not continue without... the less than glamorous work that has to be carried out back... here in H Q. They also serve, who work in our offices, collect our money, keep our accounts... make sure the administration is working well. Produce the educational material which is superb. And I visited both offices and I'm most impressed by the cheerful dedication and sheer hard work and efficiency of the people I've met. But the people I want to thank most... are you... the volunteers. People without whom we wouldn't be able to raise so much money. It's your tireless efforts as fund raisers that enable Save The Children Fund to survive. If children are to be helped... in the U K and throughout the world then we all have to succeed in persuading people to donate. Those who work in our shops, those who arrange events, those who collect... great and small sums of money from companies and from individuals, are all playing a vital part in the continuing work of Save The Children Fund. I think we call er the volunteers, or those who run the shops anyway, Sally's Army and that is in my way a tribute to Sally Barker who's chairman of our branches advisory committee and does so much to make sure... that the money does get raised in the field. It's a chairman's very pleasant duty to thank you all. As you will know... we're given large sums of money by governments, the E E C and others, to work in countries in need, to tackle specific tasks. But the money that comes in that way... never fully covers the expenses involved... in supporting our efforts in those countries. The money you raise therefore is extremely important... in enabling the S C F to tackle major, major tasks. Without that money... we would not carry on and we could not carry out our work effectively. I therefore am thanking you not, not just as a courtesy but in order to convey just how important your efforts are and just how important the seventy fifth birthday appeal is going to be next year. If that succeeds we really will be able to maintain the momentum of the fund and the work that it does throughout the world. If we don't raise our targets, we shall stumble... but I'm absolutely confident from all the news that comes in from the field, that we shall raise our targets. I know that plans are well advanced throughout the country for a massive collecting effort next year and I want to wish all of you involved all the very best in your efforts... as we approach these days, that's to say donation days, in the coming year. I'm sure your spirits will rise to the occasion... like the balloons in our logos and the banners at the side here. Rise... to the occasion. But I cannot finish er without also thanking... most warmly, our supreme supporter... in the task of fund raising, her Royal Highness. I know you will agree with me, that her example is inspiring to us all. Save The Children Fund and children throughout the world have every reason to be grateful for her unstinting efforts. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Mike:] It's not often a chairman has the chance to thank her Royal Highness publicly and I do so with pleasure now. And now... to illustrate aspects of Save The Children's Fund and its long term health work, here now is a short video... shot on location in Lesotho in Southern Africa... and in Pennywell in Sunderland. Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] [speaker005:] Save The Children's work is not just about dealing with emergency situations. It is mainly concerned with long term development. Lesotho is one of the poorest countries in the world, surrounded by South Africa it has few of its own resources. In places like this poor water supply and sanitation is a major cause of death. Contaminated water kills more people than any poison. Nine thousand children a day die from one of six preventable diseases around the world. To combat these problems needs a concerted and effective approach. Lesotho is one of eight countries across the globe in which Save The Children has introduced the riders for health project, working with the ministry of health, a successful programme has been developed which provides primary health care to almost five times as many villages that could have been reached on foot. [speaker004:] The Save The Children Fund programme with the motorcycles has... made a very big difference to the number of visits that health assistants can make to villages. Before they had the motorcycles they had to walk which meant a lot of travelling time and then less time at the, each village when they arrived. Now with the motorcycles they... spend less time travelling and they can spend more time in the villages doing their educational and health work. We found that the number of visits that... on average that they can do has increased by four or five hundred per cent. In fact they couldn't really do their job without the motorcycles. [speaker005:] Previous attempts to start the project before nineteen ninety had failed because of poor maintenance to the bikes, and accidents. By introducing specialist training and good management the bikes have been used extensively. [Bill:] That's good... well forwards... excellent, well done, very good. [speaker005:] The learning process from this project has been invaluable and it's allowed Save The Children to move forward in several other countries. Recent research into how governments and donors contribute to the provision of health services shows that effective long term systems need to be put into place. These can be worked through with local cooperation. Riders for health is a good example of what can be achieved through good planning. [Mike:] I think that the... riders for health project has... given us... ah a model that can be used in a great many other situations and we've found here in Lesotho that many other ministries and government departments are interested in what we're doing because the motorcycles, if used properly, can provide a very cost effective form of transport. [speaker005:] It is their work in the villages which is most impressive. The local health workers are able to spread basic advice on health and cleanliness as well as providing cheap but effective medicine such as immunisations and rehydration salts. Most importantly the workers help to improve the local water supply. Clean water saves more lives than any medicine that can be provided by the human race so far. Degosang is three years old. She lives in a remote village, ten kilometres from a paved road. She now has clean water from a pump that Mohali her health advisor, helped the village to organise and build. It is these basic measures which can make a difference to saving lives all over the world. Each year five million children die from the lethal effects of diarrhoea, four million from respiratory diseases like T B and bronchitis. It is through prevention that Save The Children can make the greatest impact on life. But it's not just in Africa where children are under threat from poverty and disease. In the U K Save The Children has shown the link between a poor environment and poor health. Pennywell is a housing estate in Sunderland where one in three adult males are unemployed. Health is a big issue here. Sunderland has the fourth highest number of smoking related deaths in the U K. Low birth weights are more common. [Michael:] Well obviously unemployment is very high in the North East and er all the major health indicators are related directly to income. So consequently er poor... poor people live shorter lives and they suffer more chronic illnesses. And this is also er true of the children. [speaker005:] Twins Rachel and Rebecca, seen here at just over a year old, live on the estate with their mother Carol. When the twins learned to climb up the stairs, Carol was terrified they might have an accident. She probably could never have afforded a stairgate, so Save The Children lent her the equipment from its safety loan scheme. [Caroline:] The safety gates have made a big difference, since I've gotten them erm I've got peace of mind... for the stairs and... I can answer the phone and... I haven't got to like keep trying to pull them downstairs and do do different things. [speaker005:] The family centre provides a place for people to get practical help and advice with their problems within walking distance. [Caroline:] Save The Children have... developed in this area. I mean before they came to the centre I think people felt Save The Children only did work in... countries abroad. makes us all realise what a good job Save The Children do... in our country as well. [speaker005:] Whether it's the U K or Africa, simple and appropriate solutions with the cooperation of local communities can have the most dramatic effects in improving the lives of our children. It is in these areas that Save The Children has consistently moved forward through developing long term strategies which are being added to and developed year after year. [Michael:] Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. I am Michael Taylor and I'm the Director of the United Kingdom and European Programmes Department of the Save The Children Fund. What we've just seen conjures up for me some positive messages of direct impact upon children and young people's lives through our work in this country and overseas. This is very much my experience of this organisation in the eight months I've worked here. Prior to coming to Save The Children... through the media, I was more aware of your work, the emergency work all over the world. As director of social services for the London borough of Hillingdon I knew of the work with refugees... in my role in Hillingdon I was responsible for services for child arrivals at Heathrow airport and I worked closely with Save The Children on the successful effort to get specific recognition for asylum seeking children in the asylum and immigration appeals act. What I didn't know was of the ninety-plus pieces of work, both large and small, which Save The Children undertook in the United Kingdom. I believe an important issue for all of us in the run up to and throughout the seventy fifth birthday, is the need to increase the understanding and raise the profile and the value placed upon our work in the United Kingdom. I feel we will've achieved significant progress if we have turned, I didn't know you worked in the United Kingdom, into it's good to know that the rights and needs of children are just as important to you in the United Kingdom as they are overseas. For me this has been a very exciting year in which to take on a directorship of the department. This is both in respect of the run up to the seventy fifth birthday and also with the increase in responsibility to take on the remit for the development of our work in relation to the European Community, central and Eastern Europe. We have already have significant contact through the international Save The Children alliance partners in Europe and we have representation on the European forum for child welfare. On particular issues, such as work with refugee children and work with trav traveller and gypsy families, there is already established European collaboration. It seems to me there is a massive potential to develop opportunities for practice sharing across Europe and for practice and policy initiatives of the former U K department to be assessed and developed in the European framework. Specifically though the European Programmes Division with the department will lead the development of our programmes in Eastern Europe. This will be done in partnership at all times with the in country non-gav non-governmental organisations, where such exist or where they can be developed, with governments and where appropriate with European and international agencies. The massive changes brought about by the ending of the cold war and by the collapse of state mechanism in some Eastern European countries opens up a significant opportunity to undertake work in the very near future. Save The Children fund has been involved already directly in partnership and with other international Save The Children members in providing direct and emergency aid to former Yugoslavia. However I think it's important to stress that right from the early days of the conflict we had determined not to be involved in providing large scale emergency relief. This was primarily due to a concern... that given commitments elsewhere, we did not have the logistical support and any activity in former Yugoslavia would mean a major diversion from a already established programmes overseas. However this summer a temporary programme coordinator has visited the region and a short term programme of material support to children's homes has been provided and we are now working to put other facilities in s to institutions in Serbia... and are hoping that through the restructuring of children's services, when the conflict is over and we believe obviously that may be some off, that we can tri can contribute to meeting the longer term needs of children in that war torn zone. In Slovenia a psychiatrist has been advising staff in refugee camps as to how to respond to the needs of traumatised children. In Croatia we are supporting an agency which provides direct assistance to refugee families and to young people. This work in former Yugoslavia will become an established part of our European programme. In Romania we are planning to work with Romanian Save The Children... and to help the Romanian government in its juvenile justice system which is sadly in need of major development and change. We're also engaged with the European Community in discussion over a bid for funding to develop social work, child protection and alternatives to institutional care and to other child care systems within Romania. This work again will be undertaken in partnership with non-governmental child care organisations in that country. Through g contacts already established throughout the U K department, links have been destablished and developed with work in Poland,... Russia and Albania and we're working to assess the policy, practice development or programme contribution we might make in those European countries.... I believe our credibility and our strength in these new initiatives in Europe flow from our status as an international development agency and from our high quality work in projects in the United Kingdom. I'd now like you to hear directly from a young person for whom access to one of our projects in the United Kingdom has made major changes in her life. [Princess Anne:] To Caroline home is a room for her possessions, abandoned by her Mum and Dad as a baby, she spent her life moving from one set of parents to another. [Caroline:] When you haven't got no one, you have to, sort of like find a way of doing it for yourself and it's much harder. [Princess Anne:] Today Caroline lives alone in a room in Oxford. Without family guidance she sometimes finds it hard to manage, especially money. While some of her friends have taken drugs, Caroline's been in trouble with the police for stealing from shops. [Caroline:] In the beginning I did it to look good, cos I wanted the money, towards the end it was doing it to live, it was literally doing it to live. I hated doing it. I used to go into a shop and I'd shake and I'd... know that I was doing wrong and I'd be really scared and I'd just knew I don't want to go to prison so I decide to stop it. [Princess Anne:] Now when she needs a hand, Caroline turns to life chance. A partnership between Save The Children, social and youth services it helps youngsters help themselves by turning moans into action. [Patricia:] Really we're trying to give young people a voice, put them in the driving seat. [Sally:] Gradually it sort of like brings people out of themselves and do you know what I mean, they learn to do things. [Patricia:] Whilst as a worker I might see the process, to me very important, I think there's a lot of concrete outcomes for young people feel we have achieved this, we did this for ourselves, it's ours, we own it. [Sally:] You've gone and achieved something, you feel like you've done something good, you feel like you're somebody. [speaker002:] This is when I was pregnant went to put my name down on the housing list and they said to me sorry you can't we've got too many people on there already. [Princess Anne:] Life Chance workers hope this can homeless teenagers who will be the next to benefit from the project. Building up trust and friendship takes time but for hundreds makes Life Chance a lifeline. [Michael:] I think that Caroline's experience as portrayed in that video is not unusual. Many children and young people get caught up in crime. Either through the necessity to obtain items which they believe are essential or through a desire to be one of the gang and valued by their peers. Interestingly Caroline expressed both those needs at different times during that presentation. Children who are caught up in crime are getting a lot of media attention lately. Many people say that the solution is to take the young person who has committed a crime out of their community and lock them away, that will achieve a solution. Save The Children Fund's years of experience shows it doesn't work and indeed that form of incarceration can lead to some of the tragic circumstances of self image, damage and even death which have occurred in penal institutions and been reported recently. We've also we believe got concrete evidence to show that community based alternatives do work. At Scone Park in the North East of England we offer classes in motorbike maintenance and land conservation to young people. They build on young people's skills and confidence so they feel that they have something to offer... to the world and to their own community. Latest figures show an overall twenty seven per cent decrease in crimes reported in that area since the project began. Because of our experience at Scone Park and in many other projects in the twelve years we have been working with young offenders, we, along with the other children's charities, oppose the government's proposals on persistent young offenders. Kenneth Clarke, when Home Secretary, announced the establishment of secure training centres where young people aged up to fifteen years could be sentenced for a period of up to two years. We took the view that this was a misplaced use, both of the finances required as it would divert money away from community provision, but also that there were no success criteria guaranteed other than removal from community. The children engaged in crime often come from families where there is high unemployment already and where the prospects of employment are actually denied school leavers. They're children and young people with a very poor self image and where their investment in the education system has probably been... partial to say the least. There is little out of school provision and where the youth service is actually suffering savage cuts in terms of local government finance. Projects such as Scone Park have shown that there can be alternative provision and that you can meet the needs of children and young people and respond to those in their own community and develop the investment in that community. In taking this view we are not denying that the loss of liberty may actually be necessary in a few extreme cases and this should only be where the child presents a significant danger to him or herself... or where there is a significant risk... of major further offending and severe damage to community. These incidences are very rare and actually disposals through the courts do exist using the care facilities which are already available to the local authorities and the secure accommodation. We know that custody does not stop young people committing crimes when their sentence is over. Seventy five per cent of young people released from custody re-offend within two years. We believe and we know that re-offending rates after secure regimes are much higher than after community based schemes and the well being and safety of children we believe can be compromised by incarceration in secure provision. Because of that view and because of the principals which we as an organisation espouse we chose to challenge the position that the Home Secretary had adopted and raised, we believe, the debate in the media and in the parliamentary setting of what should be provided to meet the er needs of young people. We've demonstrated the direct link between investing in community support and reduced crime levels and we believe that programme, valued as it is in local communities, has a message larger and wider for policy makers in the United Kingdom. We recently had a similar experience in terms of a media debate and entering into it, in our work with lone parents. Reading some sections of the media recently, children of lone parents are talked about as as if they're nothing but a drain on state resources. As an organisation we believe that children in these circumstances may well need support but they're also a real resource to our society, an investment in children's welfare and children's education is a sound investment in the country's future. Recently government ministers and the media have tended to concentrate on the small minority of very young women who have had babies and who live on their own. In fact, according to government statistics, only two per cent of lone parents are aged under twenty. The majority of lone parents are older, divorced, separated or widowed women. In reading the media recently one would believe that those figures were actually reversed. Housing policy in this country has traditionally given priority to children's needs... and we would find it very worrying if that priority were eroded in any way by the introductions of policies aiming to discriminate against children in one setting i.e. children of lone parent families. A recent report by the institute of housing managers confirmed that no specific priority is given in the analysis of housing need an and the awarding of points by which housing is allocated. But again the suggestion through the media would be that in order to gain top priority you need to be a young single parent with at least one child. We consider that punitive policies such as cutting benefit payments or not providing adequate housing for lone parents or their children, would immediately damage the health and well being of children and we consider that that in itself is contrary to the U N convention on the rights of the child. We will continue to encourage government to take positive steps to improve the situation of families in poverty, like providing better child care and better support services to families and maintaining and improving benefits at a level... which actually ensure economic stability and guaranteeing that housing, safe and proper housing, is available for all children in our society. Our experience at our projects demonstrates that given the opportunity, lone parents, like any parents, want to improve the situation of their children by by working... and by not being dependent upon benefits. At the Pattmore project in London and the Rosemount project in Glasgow for example, mothers are provided with adequate child care and it enables them to attend courses and gain skills and qualifications that give them a better chance in the job market. The very positive self image, the change during the first week, that single parents experience those courses is absolutely striking. We believe that the children of all lone parents can best be helped by po policies which support their commitment to their family and their children and pathways out of poverty should be built which ensure that all families living in poverty have the chance to change their situation.... Like your chairman, I am a newcomer to the fund and my induction experience has not been limited to the division offices in the United Kingdom or visiting projects in the United Kingdom. In July of this year, along with the overseas director Mike Arrinson, I spent seven days in Bangladesh. We visited both city and rural programmes and were struck by the amazing capacity of the people... to overcome adversity, both natural disasters and the extremes of poverty. The desire in all the work which we saw there was to extend... to develop and to move ahead with new ideas to meet needs. The video which follows now portrays some of our work in Bangladesh and I'll provide the commentary upon it.... Khulna is a large industrial city in South Western Bangladesh. It attracts many migrant families from the surrounding rural areas and as such is similar to many of the cities in Bangladesh. People flood to the city seeking employment, seeking security and actually trying to find a means of sustaining family life.... Many seek employment in matchbox manufacture, in working with textiles... in stone breaking,... in ship building, metal working and in paper manufacture.... The slums people live in have open sewers, amazingly crowded housing, poor sanitation and ineffective drainage. Eight hundred to a thousand people will live in a dense area and are subject to the vagaries of government and landlords. Slums are bulldozed overnight on occasions to make way for new developments.... These people live... amongst the wealthier residential areas... in all of the cities of Bangladesh.... The seasonal rains bring a deterioration in the living conditions and without effective drainage sewage overflows into the homes. Children are more prone to disease.... These were the conditions in the slums which we visited in Dacca.... Amidst these circumstances, Save The Children Fund clinics are providing primary healthcare programme for slum mothers and young children. Local clinic staff are appointed from the community itself and they provide immunisation, family planning, a dispensary, ante-natal and post natal services. More importantly they provide training for local volunteers and they give health education advice. This has led to a fall in the emergency attendances with almost a hundred per cent registration rates from local slum families. What's more these families are paying for the clinic service that they have come to appreciate.... The clinic staff make weekly visits to every slum home providing effective follow up to clinic visits, whilst encouraging good health practices at home too. There is a massive investment in health education and in improving diet.... The clinic has acted as a strong focus for slum living mothers to campaign for improved conditions in their surroundings. For example making arrangements to cover up open latrines.... As a collective, people are contributing financially to the installation of new tube wells. The cleaner water supply has dram dramatic effects on the children's health. Every clinic conducts regular surveys to monitor the effects of the programme, proving that infant mortality rates have dropped, whilst scabies and bronchitis have decreased too. Mike and I saw a a very young child being washed at a tube well, those guiding us round the site were very impressed by this, the child was rather perplexed and surprised as normally it was taken down to the river to be washed.... Women are now participating in credit saving schemes organised through Save The Children. In groups of five they each save weekly after which one of their number can take a loan and invest in an income generating project. Each group opens their own joint bank account,... manages their own money,... does some basic budget planning and learns to fill out the forms and paperwork necessary to record all the transactions and keep track of the state of the fund and their management of it. We saw numerous examples where people bought equipment. For example Amina... has bought a sewing machine. This will give her financial independence and a steady income. She has repaid the debt and now has sufficient money on which to live. Rebaya and her daughter purchased the materials necessary to men to make incense sticks and again have achieved a degree of financial independence which... six months before could not have been expected.... Some people use the money to buy fishing nets. Our integrated health programme has provided a catalyst for slum families to have a hand in controlling their environment and working together to benefit each other. Free of money lenders and learning to save and contribute financially to their own programme is an important step towards long term self sustainability.... Thank you. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Mike:] Thank you very much indeed Mike for that excellent presentation. And now I would like to ask her Royal Highness... to come to the platform and address us. Thank you very much ma'am. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Princess Anne:] Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.... Well I'm delighted to see so many of you have taken the trouble to come and join us today... for yet another annual public meeting and in welcoming you can I give a particular welcome to our new chairman Mike Betts, thank him very much indeed... for joining us. He has... an excellent background in support,... not involved in in the running but continuous interest and support... and for him to... take on this challenge shows a particular kind of commitment to the work of the Save The Children Fund and we're very grateful to him for taking it on and I sincerely hope that he will enjoy the experience, especially after... meeting all of you today. Mike thank you for joining us. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Princess Anne:] Today is an important occasion for the fund. It always is er a moment to reflect, to look forward to... renew acquaintances, to recharge the batteries, to get new ideas and that's quite right... and this public meeting marks the eve of a particularly important year for all of us at the Save The Children Fund. Our seventy fifth birthday year.... I hope it will be... a birthday year in in every way, er but it's not just a good excuse to have a party... there is... very serious intent behind this birthday.... When Eglantine Jebb launched the Save The Children Fund in May nineteen nineteen, one of her aims was for the fund to work for its own extinction. Seventy five years on that day seems more distant than ever. Eglantine also said that children are always the first to suffer... and that is certainly as true today as it was then which means that the Save The Children Fund's work is needed now as much as it was then.... B but the funds to support this work are harder to come by... and you don't need me to tell you that. Yet the need is such that our spending at home and overseas has doubled in the last two years... and still vital pieces of work in the U K and overseas await funding. The sad reality is that nearly seventy years after Eglantine Jebb drafted the world's first charter of children's rights, the charter which became the foundation for the nineteen eighty nine U N convention.... Children's rights to health, to a good education, to safety, to a secure childhood... are still threatened. In short children across, across the globe are facing pressures and conditions that are no longer considered acceptable to an international community that sees so much suffering around the world. They want to do something. I believe with our experience that the Save The Children Fund can do something positive that will last. We urgently need funds to be able to respond effectively... and to meet the increased demands being made on us as well as to maintain our existing work. That's why Save The Children is marking this seventy fifth birthday year with the biggest and most important fund raising appeal in the organisation's history.... Our target is to raise, in cash and in pledges, an additional twenty five million pounds over and above our normal fundraising. But before I talk in more detail about how we hope to raise this money let me spend a little time explaining why I feel that this appeal is so vital to children everywhere.... I need hardly remind you of the many emergencies... that Save The Children has responded to in recent years. The most recent was for Somalia, and you responded magnificently, helping to raise over five million pounds for relief work.... But as you know the needs of the world's children go far beyond the immediate emergencies like those in Somalia or Liberia. The need for sustainable health, education and welfare services is as acute as ever. Children in the United Kingdom face different sorts of problems... but they too are under threat. Parents need help with their own lives so that their children don't suffer... from the unemployment and homelessness that contribute to ill health and an unsafe living environment... that too many children have to live with today.... It is only by establishing and maintaining development programmes and by working in conjunction with families, with communities and with governments that we can begin to achieve lasting improvements which tackle the root causes of the poverty and inequality that threaten so many children. Investing in human resources is a fundamental part of that process too. It helps to promote the political stability and economic growth that is an essential backdrop to any kind of lasting change. But as you know the Save The Children is just one development organisation and with limited resources, so a major part of our task is to use our influence and authority to press for change on a wider scale by keeping the issues of poverty and inequality and of children... firmly on the international agenda. Ladakh... in North West India, very distant, remote, mountainous, a harsh environment for any child to grow up in. Most villages are perched over ten thousand feet up in the Himalayas.... Many can be reached only by walking, for several days along precarious footpaths and they may be cut off half the year by snow. In winter, the temperature can drop to minus forty degrees centigrade. Ladakhis live from farming and livestock rearing... and believe me they know how to do this. They know how to cope... and they have very sophisticated forms of irrigation. But although they are largely self sufficient, needless to say livelihoods in these sort of conditions and communities are on a knife edge. The growing season is short and the tiny fields are extremely difficult to plough.... For health and welfare most villages depend on village healers. But unless this is combined with techniques like vaccination and knowledge of oral rehydration, diseases like measles and diarrhoea are child killers. To net to get an education beyond primary level, children have to leave their village primary schools because the terms coincide with the peak agricultural seasons. Save The Children d went into Ladakh fifteen years ago to provide emergency feeding for malnourished children. Today that emergency programme has evolved into a broad based community programme, focusing on health, education and economic status and training of teachers and health workers. To give Ladakh's children a better start in life means supporting services that work in harmony... with local structures and rhythms. Now there is primary health care for all mothers and children however remote their community. Families have become involved in income generating schemes... and children have better access to education and in all these areas the villagers, particularly women, work closely with staff to play an active part in the development of their own community and the securing of their children's future.... Now a Glasgow inner city area migh may seem light years away from all this... but in many ways the need is just as acute. And they are still a community under pressure. Royston in Glasgow, where unemployment is high, the housing is high and poor and there are few safe areas and precious little childcare provision. Many of the residents are single parents who often feel isolated and trapped and unable to improve their situation. Save The Children's Rosemount project which I visited in June is working with parents and children, providing quality child care with individual attention for each child... and offering courses in computing and child care for women to improve their skills and equally important, their confidence. In other words giving people the raw materials to improve their lives and safeguard their children's future. Both of these interventions are successes in their own right. They apply to different communities, they have responded to different communities' needs but they also contribute to a ripple effect of achievement at national and international levels which will ultimately benefit the lives of many more children. They are setting standards of good practice that we in the Save The Children Fund can then help to spread. These children the world over need your continued help... and that is what this birthday appeal is all about. With seventy five years of working with children under our belt and with our many achievements on behalf of children with pioneering schemes, we have the experience and the expertise to achieve real and lasting change. So where do we start with the mammoth task of raising an additional twenty five million pounds? I have little doubt that nineteen ninety four, ninety five will be a challenge, especially in today's economic climate. This is going to be a year when we will all have to go that extra mile for children. But... I'm afraid your reputation precedes you, you are renowned for rising to challenges like these and I feel sure that you can build on your previous successes and that together we can... and probably will, do it. I will be launching the birthday year in January when I hope that among other things, we might succeed in gaining recognition for Eglantine Jebb and our many achievements for children... and I was delighted to be asked to chair the birthday advisory group and to be closely involved with activities during nineteen ninety four. One of the activities we have great hopes for is our private appeal which will run alongside our public fundraising. This is a first... for The Save The Children... and we will be approaching wealthy individuals, foundations and trusts for donations towards our work. That will not be easy because most of them are heavily involved in funding of all sorts of other organisations and they have their own interests. We will have to be very sure that we know what we're talking about when we meet them to persuade them... that we need their funds more and we can make better use of them... and we hope to raise around half of that twenty five million pounds from them. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Sir David Scholey, the chairman of S G Warburg for chairing the private appeal. Sir David is a long term supporter of Save The Children and has sat for many years on the industry and commerce group. And I'd also like to extend my thanks to his very able committee. Our corporate members are ready... but they very much need your help. We are relying on you and all the other volunteers around the U K in your contacts with the public to help make this year a success. You are the public face of the Save The Children Fund. The people who have carried the fund raising banner throughout the years. The people at the fund raising coal face who have the skills and the expertise to ensure that our seventy fifth birthday year goes down in Save The Children's fund raising history. This year though we want to attract new supporters and search out people who haven't traditionally supported Save The Children as well as building on the commitment of our existing supporters.... You are all familiar with our loyal supporters, but what about those people on the fringes who may have given a donation or done something for Save The Children in the past, but never really followed it up... and there are the people who are interested who think, it's a charity I feel I ought to support. Let's see if we can move them on this year so that they start to think it's a charity I know I really want to support. What better time than a birthday year to persuade all these people to become active and long term supporters of the Save The Children. Plans are well underway for next year. I know that many of you... have already come up with some interesting ideas on seventy fifth theme. Many branches have already scheduled a range of exciting events based on the birthday in addition to the events that will be happening nationwide. Like the thousands of birthday parties that we hope will take place on May the nineteenth. There will be more on all these happenings later today. Other fund raising plans are well advanced too. I'm delighted that our old friends at Tesco, a founder corporate member of Save The Children, are once again lending their generous support. In nineteen ninety four they are making us their charity of the year and offering to work with us across the U K to help raise an extra million. I would also like to thank another of our corporate members, Cadbury Limited. Over the past eighteen months Cadbury and Save The Children have worked very successfully together, staging three strollathons... sponsoring nationwide pantomimes... and running a promotion on chocolate bars. I think that was probably the most popular.... As our seventy fifth birthday approaches, Cadbury hopes to stage more events and promotions to help us meet our seventy five million t pound target and meet our commitment to the world's children. All in all it promises to be an exciting... enjoyable and hard working year for Save The Children and all its supporters. It is going to be hard work. Nobody would pretend... that raising an additional twenty five million pounds is going to be easy but time and again you have risen to the challenge. We must make very sure we know what we're doing it for.... It will help to remind ourselves of the challenge that Eglantine Jebb took up. Her clear sighted approach... to bring long lasting help to mothers and children, so that children could benefit, wherever they were... whatever their country, their colour, their situation -urban or rural, their culture, their religion, their society in the sense of its development and their expectations and their infrastructure. She was frustrated by short term palliatives. When knowledge of basic principles might cure for future generations... many diseases and even hunger and that education might set solid foundations for extending and repeating that knowledge, as well as the economic viability of the community and a sense of responsibility. A sense of responsibility in the children that we help, that they all grow up to be responsible adults. In seventy five years the fund has remained true to her principles and yet it is as pioneering as she ever was. I hope she would be pleased by our efforts, in spite of the fact that we are still here and needed. I know she would be proud of you, the fund raisers, who make it possible. As you set about making your plans for next year let me leave you with this thought from Eglantine Jebb... If children of any country are physically or morally abandoned the whole world loses by it... and the whole world gains if children grow up healthy, capable and ready to work for the good of their neighbours. Good luck. [speaker004:] [clapping] [clapping] [Mike:] Thank you very much indeed for that... superb key note address.... And now let us proceed with the next business of the day, it gives me great pleasure your Royal Highness to er invite you to present several Save The Children awards this morning. These awards are given in recognition of outstanding services to children. Five people who've been nominated for awards are not available to receive them from her Royal Highness. Though absent they are... Ray, Lee, Kim, Cho and Marjorie. Congratulations to them all, they'll be receiving their awards in due course. We now [speaker004:] [clapping] [Mike:] Now for those who are present I will call out each name and if each one can come forward and receive... the award from her Royal Highness. Joe [speaker004:] [clapping]... [Mike:] Lady Sarah [speaker004:] [clapping]... [clapping] [Mike:] Esther [speaker004:] [clapping]... [clapping] [Mike:] Josephine Anne [speaker004:] [clapping]... [clapping] [Mike:] Dora [speaker004:] [clapping]... [clapping] [Mike:] Jill [speaker004:] [clapping]... [clapping] [Mike:] Thank you award winners and thank you all... for your contribution to Save The Children Fund. Now I have some er... parish notices for you all.... Now there are imbit information stands on level five where several catering points are available for lunch and er members of the audience can... also attend four fringe meetings. These meetings are... Making the most of the seventy fifth in shops, Involving young people in singing for the seventy fifth, Branches sharing fund raising ideas for the seventy fifth and Small World Theatre extracts from... Moving, a play on the theme of refugees. Now these are taking place between one and two this afternoon. I should say that there are only seventy five seats available for each fringe meeting so... if you want to go hurry on and get your tickets which will be issued at level three information desk on a first come, first served basis. A colour coded system will be in operation to help you find your way around those fringe meetings. Now I just want to end this morning session by reminding you to be in your seats by two twenty. We have a speaker... er... Patricia Routledge in her guise as Mrs Bucket or Mrs Bouquet she would not be very pleased if you were late. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] For one of her candle-lit after-lunch speeches. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] Thank you very much for this morning, we'll see you this afternoon. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Mike:] interesting as well as a er... edible lunch... er we're very pleased now to start away the afternoon session... and I'm particularly pleased to be able to introduce Patricia Routledge, she's an actress with so many parts in so many media that I'm not going to make any further introduction, but merely to ask her to come up and speak to us. When she has finished Sally Barker, branches advisory committee chairman, will make her presentation. Thank you very much. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Patricia:] Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen.... It is a particular privilege for me to be here today and part of me feels not totally qualified. I have over the years... sent my postal order regularly and it wasn't until... two years ago that I became more actively involved in the work of Save The Children fund raising. I was invited to give an entertainment at the Bristol Old Vic theatre, the wonderful old Theatre Royal, the oldest extant theatre still being used in the country and one of the oldest in the world, a very beautiful place... erm and I was asked if I would do an entertainment that I have called Come for the Ride which I was persuaded to concoct by my home town of Birkenhead in the North West of England. I did it there originally and then did it at festivals all over the country. I have a particular affection for Bristol and the West country, I'd like you know that, those of you who've come all the way to London from the West and I so I was very happy to have this evening and be able with er an accompanist and musical director, to provide entertainment that would raise money. I was told early on that it was possible that your Royal Highness would be able to be there and indeed you were and it gave us all... one of the most unforgettable nights.... I remember after the show you spoke... for twelve minutes without a note and not only that but you came round afterwards and spent eight or ten minutes with us, the artists, which absolutely made our evening. It seems to me that that attention to the moment is significant of the great work that you do for this particular charity. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Patricia:] Now I recently have accumulated unto myself, a notoriety that I didn't originally seek. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Patricia:] And certainly didn't expect... but everywhere I go it comes at me. It gives me great pleasure because people are extremely kind and extremely generous. We're very obsessed with things called viewing figures in television and I worked out quite simply that if everybody among the eleven million people who are supposed to view Keeping Up Appearances every Sunday, popped a penny into a money box for Save The Children Fund one Sunday night, that would raise a hundred and ten thousand pounds within an hour, now why don't we get going and encourage people to do that. [speaker004:] [clapping] [Patricia:] Multiply that by seven... and it's seven hundred and seventy thousand pounds.... What we are able to do in my job is to do what I was happy to do which is to give a performance in aid of a charity, one soon learns how to expend one's energy and in which direction to focus it. Earlier this year, on April the twenty second,... her Royal Highness, the Princess Royal, entertained various representatives from the world of entertainment and sport and journalism at Buckingham Palace. We had the most wonderful evening, it began with a film show, an extremely well er composed film to do with the work that is being done, the variety of work that is being done in the variety of places. Various reports... a plea for support... a plea for interest particularly for the seventy fifth anniversary year next year and after that we had the most lovely party.... I have a list here of people in my particular part of the profession who have pledged themselves to assist with the great drive forward for the seventy fifth anniversary. A number of celebrities were appearing in the Cadbury's sponsored pantomimes around the country and supporting the Save The Children fund raising activities. These include Lesley Joseph, Jeff Capes, Bobby Davro, Windsor Davies, John Nettles and Gloria Hunniford and Ian Botham. Pam Ferris from the Darling Buds of May is actively supporting the fund and will help with publiscation and er fund raising, publicising and fund raising in the birthday year. Sandi Toksvig, the comedy actress, has been advising on the seventy fifth birthday plans with television, book and consumer magazine support, she'll be visiting Zimbabwe in October with a B B C television crew to film a documentary and will be visiting and filming Save The Children Fund projects while she's there. Lulu... Ulrika Johnson, Tessa Sanderson, Debby McGee and Linda Bellingham all lent their support to this year's Cadbury's strollathon and we look forward to their continued support in our birthday year. Next year I am going to be very active in the theatre and I've already this morning, sown the seed er for possibly er giving a particular performance er of one of the plays in this particular season I'm going to do er for Save The Children Fund and I've said [speaker004:] [clapping] [Patricia:] I've said move fast, get on with it.... William Wordsworth... nearly two hundred years ago, wrote this... my heart leaps up when I behold a rainbow in the sky. So it was when my life began... so it is now that I am a man.... So be it when I shall grow old or let me die. The child is father of the man. And that is what it seems to me... is the purpose of all our support for this fund. I've been particularly impressed with the officials and executives and workers that I've met. I've been particularly impressed today to learn how people come here every year, particularly for this meeting and of all the various ways in which money can be raised. The money is there, we know this. I always say that we all spend our money on what we really want to spend it on... and put a bit by for what we really desire to achieve. It is wonderful all the work that you do.... And I applaud and admire it.... I... am here partly because I was fortunate enough to have the happiest and healthiest of childhoods and I see it... as a very happy obligation to try to do my best to ensure that all over the world it is possible for other children to enjoy something of what I had. God bless you all and I hope to be... walking alongside you during the seventy fifth year anniversary efforts. [speaker004:] [clapping] [speaker005:] In Sri Lanka thousand of families have moved from the countryside to the capital Colombo in search of a better life. Instead they find nowhere to live, nothing to eat and poor health and education. Save The Children is helping families to rebuild the ghettos, to make a better life for themselves and the next generation.... In the Sudan cities are surrounded by huge camps filled with victims of a five year long civil war. It's a poor part of Africa but most of its problems are man made. Fighting has cut off supplies to the refugees. Save The Children works with organisations like the Red Cross to restore that life line.... Poor children in Jamaica often fall prey to drugs dealers who offer them clothes and shoes in return for carrying drugs. Save The Children helps youngsters living and working on the streets, it runs schools where the poorest can get hot meals and lessons. Just one more example of how Save the Children does just that all round the world.... [Sally:] Yes. Those are some of the reasons why I and many others support Save The Children and thank you Patricia Routledge... for talking to us today, it was a pleasure listening to you. Hello everyone. Once again it is lovely to see you all. Well this is it, next year is our seventy fifth birthday so today is one of our most important meetings we will ever have. It'll be a very challenging year for volunteers, I'm sure you'll all agree.... In the past year I've been invited by many of you to meet branch members and to make shop visits all over the United Kingdom. It's been a privilege to have done this... and I'm overwhelmed by the enthusiasm I've encountered. You, Save The Children Fund volunteers, are determined not to let the recession beat you. The message I've given to London is that volunteers are in very good heart and it doesn't stop there. The really good thing is that there are a huge variety of plans for our big year. More of that later. But what about the last twelve months. What stories do our figures tell us? Well... while we were all delighted about the tremendous increase in income two years ago we were also a little concerned about how we should hold on to it, but we have. Last year branch income was on target at seven point eight million pounds, a massive increase on the plateau of five to five and half million pounds we were on before Skip Lunch. Congratulations to you all.... And the shops, well there are now one hundred and fifty nine shops. Together they have raised five point seven million pounds last year, a wonderful result and thank you all. I particularly want to highlight the shop cash donations.... We've introduced a new donations box and some shops have special donations secretaries... and many helpers encourage donations too. What a success story. Shop cash donations have gone up from five hundred and sixty three thousand to six hundred and twenty nine thousand, a marvellous increase.

[speaker001:] Many successful shops seminars too. The topics discussed... included how to attract new volunteers, how to make the most of the window, the shop layout, how Save The Children spend the money and oh the list goes on. They were all very enjoyable and useful seminars. If you attended the lunchtime fringe meeting on shops you probably had even more food for thought. Now looking for the future, is there an opportunity on the shop front, for further growth? Here's a mini report. [video playing]. Welcome to Save The Children in Sutton Coldfield where children from school have taken over the shop for a day. school is a big supporter of the Save The Children Fund. Princess Anne is the president of the charity and she visited the school three years ago for the golden jubilee. The children running the shop today are all aged eight and from the third year at school, but how much do they know about what the shop does. Erm, it likes... erm. Not much it seems so I asked manageress Janet to explain. [Janet:] The money we make in this shop goes to... erm Save The Children Fund which supports children in countries abroad, particularly in Africa where you've probably seen pictures on television. Children starving, children who... who are orphans, children on the move, refugees erm... people that have... nothing, nothing at all and a lot of the money is spent in this country erm particularly in cities, very poor areas of the cities. [speaker001:] The children learned how to do all the jobs that make a shop work. Opening the boxes, stacking the cards, I've been on the tills and serving the customer putting the things in bag. Time to hand back to the grown-ups. and time for this reporter to go back to school. [Sally:] Congratulations and thank you to shop and branch volunteers, large and small. You work so tirelessly for the fund... many of you are in this hall today... now and thousands more are not. Please pass on our warmest thanks to them all. I would also like to thank the staff who work with and support the volunteers in so many ways.... Thank you for your help and guidance. So what will our birthday year be like for volunteers? Challenging without doubt. Because we need to raise twenty five percent more in branches and shop donations to hit our target. But the year should also be exciting and enjoyable too I hope. There is so much fund raising knowledge and experience amongst our volunteers. I was amazed during a recent visit to headquarters of the number of requests for posters and tickets I saw when I was leafing through that bible, the design it file. The variety of events were as ever absolutely astounding. Bingo in Swaffham, book sales, craft fairs, cream teas, open gardens. In Canterbury you could go to an evening of wine and wisdom. Winchcombe branch held a wonderful candlelit salmon supper. In Leominster they chose plonk and pate. On the music front, Scottish, string quartets, a juke box jive, a opera were in store.... This fund raising fair is our bread and butter and it is top quality. So for success in the seventy fifth I say to any volunteer who asks me, do what you always do, stick to your tried and tested methods because that's what you know best. But, go for a little more. Many of you have played what we come to call the seventy fifth game, where we round up to seventy five. So if you used to charge fifty P for programmes, consider, could you charge seventy five P? If you held and event last year and fifty five people attended. Could you go for seventy five this year? Invite groups to raise... seventy five pounds for us, or seven hundred and fifty pounds or dare I say it, seven thousand five hundred pounds. In shops, could you select better quality goods for a seven pound fifty rail? And could the shop team keep shops open an extra seven and half hours in the best trading week for example? So please, everyone, put a little more into the seventy fifth and get more out.... I now want to draw on some major fund raising themes directly linked to the seventy fifth. There are four national events, some of which will be familiar. The first is Save The Children Fund week. As you know the seventy fifth will be launched on the twenty sixth of April, nineteen ninety four. Can you make the most of the week and the wonderful opportunity we'll have for collecting in Tesco stores. We have a real chance here. Just look at your superb performance to date. Nineteen ninety three Save The Children Fund week raised nine hundred and forty six thousand pounds, a staggering nine percent increase on the previous year. More branches than ever joined in... six hundred and seventy four in all... and collections took place at more Tesco's than ever, two hundred and twenty five. The increase has been steady, thanks to all the tremendous effort put in by our volunteers and staff. I particularly want to mention the East Anglia and East Midlands region where a hundred percent of branches participated, yes an inspiration to us all. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] In Northern Ireland where unfortunately there are no Tesco stores, there is a set target aimed at getting a minimum... Save The Children Fund week involvement in seventy five percent of branches. This is ambitious but I know you will do well, knowing how mativ motivated and generous people of Norlan Northern Ireland are. But where there isn't a branch near a Tesco's... how can we make sure that the collections are still carried out? Well I want to encourage you to think of asking other groups you know to help, and individuals too. If you can come up with lots of names, let the nearest branch, or your area organiser know. This is the way we'll meet our aim of covering all the four hundred and fifty Tesco's stores.... The second event is our birthday parties. A fund raising idea of Judy, a volunteer from Scotland, the actual birthday is the nineteenth of May, as you know, to mark this we are asking all our supporters to hold a party for us on that day, or as near to it as possible. It's a wonderful opportunity for volunteers in shops and branches and one-off groups to contact all the people who've supported them and Save The Children over the years. We want it to be a day of celebration, but not only that, as with all parties we hope to receive presents, but the presents must be money for Save The Children. I can't stress enough how we would love to get a hundred percent response for the parties from all our branches, so get the balloons and the collecting bins out please and please make the most of the idea. Thirdly there will be a national raffle with a car as the main prize. This year many branches are keen on the raffle, arranged by Ian, the treasurer of Wakefield branch and David area organiser for Yorkshire South. Lots of you applied for and sold tickets and the winning ticket was drawn by the Princess Royal during the lunch period. In the right place, a raffle can be a winner, by persuading a friendly car dealer to loan you a car to put in a shopping centre, or at a country show. Many branches have raised a hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds a day, or even more. Check as there may be insurance problems, but don't be put off, or how about getting a dealer to supply a cardboard mock-up of a car and using this, it still grabs the attention. Shops helpers are vital in selling raffle tickets too. So let's really all commit ourselves to the national raffle and make it the biggest and most successful raffle Save The Children has ever had. Fourthly, on a musical note, we are very fortunate that Richard Stilgoe is composing a special piece of music for Save The Children, the theme of course is childhood and we are putting together a menu of music and readings which will include this new piece. The idea is to invite choirs and musicians from all over the United Kingdom to use our menu, the sheet music and the pack of the fund raising ideas. To this end we will be working closely with Music Aid, a group of volunteers from the music world who set up after the tragic Ethiopian famine in the mid nineteen eighties. We will invite musicians and choirs to raise money for Save The Children. So many of our volunteers in branches and shops belong to, or have links with choirs. We are calling on all our helpers, both adults and children, who enjoy music, to spread the word or the song. Look out for the pack, it will be ready next Spring, in time for the events which will continue throughout the year... with of course, a big Christmas push for all those carol concerts. So four major fund raising schemes and a lot is being planned locally, by branches and by the councils in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. But also special seventy fifth birthday committees are conort coordinating large special events involving branch and non-branch volunteers like the youth music festival to be held in Canterbury Cathedral in nineteen ninety four.... Save The Children really recognises and values the skills of fund raisers, both volunteers and staff. Your efforts and achievements are always humbling. Let me just mention some of the ways in which you, the volunteers, are getting together, enriching your skills and supporting each other generally in support of the seventy fifth. In London a deputy area representative, Isabelle, is working with a group of well established trading secretaries to encourage other branches, less confident in trading, to spread their wings. Isabelle is well supported in this by the staff and I would like to mention how much we appreciate the changes to the trading goods which have taken place in the last year. Things have really taken off, our whole output has gone up a notch. If I had t t to give one word to describe it, it would be quality. Just look at our Christmas catalogue. There has been a great improvement in the range of goods and cards, I'm sure you'll all have noticed it too. On the education front, I believe we've had one of the most successful ever branches residential meetings at Bristol University. It was an opportunity to place Save The Children Fund's current and future aim into historical context and for volunteers a valuable lesson in preparation for the seventy fifth. Bursaries, available this year for the first time, broadened the opportunities to attend. Also, throughout the United Kingdom there are now school speakers training sessions. They began in Scotland and to take just one example we are very lucky to have Muriel, an area representative, coordinating the programme in the Midlands. Thank you Muriel. So to summarise, whatever the event, whatever your skill, whether you're a branch or a non-branch volunteer, I encourage you and everyone else to do something to Save The Children in nineteen ninety four. Here's one example for this year of how Save The Children can work with others. [speaker001:] The steak pie costs nine pence, the spotted dick is tuppence, in fact all the prices of the staff cafe today were the same as they were sixty years ago, that's because today is the cafe's sixtieth anniversary. So today we reverted back to what we used to do and it's traditional dishes which quite frankly, what we build empires on, sausages, mash and onions, steak pie, chips and peas. And the added twist is that the menu is at nineteen thirty three prices, or a donation to the Save The Children Fund. The cafe was opened by Ambrosio Forte sixty years ago, it's now run by his son Mario. one shilling and ten pence. How much have you spent today then? I've spent one and ten pence, old money... and a donation of course. Is that a bargain? That was an absolute bargain, yeah. One and six please. There you are. Who said the west end's expensive, at least one place in Soho here today where you can get a square meal for less than two bob. Er that'll be one and six please. American Express? You must be joking. [Sally:] Save The Children benefited from that event and the publicity, because we were the quickest off the mark in responding to the Star Cafe's request to help with their anniversary event. Well that takes us on nicely to more interviews, this time I'm coming down to meet members of the audience.... Can you hear me? First I am going to look for Kathy. Kathy is our area representative for Sussex, a very busy lady oh, oh yes I see you.... Hello Kathy, I think first of all you should tell us what an area representative is. [Kathy:] An area representative is a volunteer, just like everybody here in this audience today, and I act as a link between the branches and headquarters, working with the area organiser but representing the branches, for me personally in Sussex. [Sally:] You're a very busy lady I know and I also believe that your area's got some fantastic ideas for the seventy fifth, something to do with a special cake recipe. Can you tell us about it? [Kathy:] Well... when you say cake, don't get the wrong ideas, erm... my idea of a cake, the vision that I had of a, a three tier cake, came to me as I was striding home from a meeting across The Downs and I had this vision of a three tier cake. The base of the cake was the branches, us, the foundation of Save The Children Fund, doing what we usually do but doing it very, very well and very professionally, the fetes, the coffee mornings, the fashion shows, the sort of thing that our reputation is built on. And then there was the second tier of the cake, something a little bit different, something a little bit more special for the seventy fifth year but still perhaps working on the tried and tested. Then I saw the top tier of the cake and that has got to be... the er piece, piece de resistance I think as the French say and I know that some very exciting ideas are coming out of the South East region. In particular Kent has put together a very interesting programme of a festival of food and drink which is taking place at Penthurst Place near Tonbridge Wells, the last weekend in June and again here at the Barbican next year after this particular annual public meeting, music aid, who you mentioned earlier, are putting on a concert er for Save The Children Fund and they hope to raise twenty thousand pounds on that night. Sussex is still working on its piece de resistance [] but I hope that we're going to get erm what we hope to do together very, very soon. [Sally:] Isn't that wonderful er and thank you Kathy for working so hard for us. Now I'm going down. [speaker001:] [clapping] Sally, erm well Scotland is very enthusiastic about the birthday appeal and we have five major events planned, erm two in the Glasgow area and two in Edinburgh and one up at Gleneagles... and erm... in all of these events we're actually pulling in on our people's expertise to widen our contacts, so it's not just the fund members who are running these things. We've got a ladies luncheon in Glasgow for four hundred and the organiser, Ruth the chair of Glasgow branch, is being helped by two ladies from the business community... erm Linda from the BAFTA award and Tessa who has her own marketing company, so we're hoping to sort of pull in a lot of people from that erm... Judy the chair of Scottish council, is yet again holding her... Charlotte Square ball... erm, this was very, very successful two years ago, I think you know erm and we're hoping for the same success erm, we are very lucky that the Royal Highland Show has chosen us to be er the charity this year for the gala preview of the show erm this is er for three hundred people, a champagne reception erm sponsored by the Bank of Scotland, so that you go and see the flowers before the show opens the next day. So that's rather nice I don't think I'll have any difficulty selling the tickets for that. And then up at Gleneagles we have a pro-am celebrity golf tournament and that's in conjunction with a dinner and a fashion show and yet again the interesting thing is that the Scottish P G A is actually going to run the golf tournament for us so that's a great scoop.... erm... These are all very exclusive events and ticket events so we felt there was a need for a public event and erm, what they say in Glasgow, something for ma, pa and the wains... and so we're having a family fun day at Chatlereau country park, just south of Glasgow at Hamilton. We're hoping... and I'm crossing my fingers here, that we'll get in excess of five thousand people there and the interesting thing is we've got a commercial exhibition at it, to give it a flavour of Scotland where people will show all the good things made in Scotland and we're calling it the taste and touch of Scotland and hopefully that will offset the cost of all the other, other er stalls and things that we're holding. So erm we're going to be very busy I think. [Sally:] I'm sure you are... and thank you for being such a wonderful chairman. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] It's now my very great pleasure to look for Jacqui who's our shop leader of Sherborne shop. Some of you from that part of the world will know that it's a wonderful little shop, in fact it's a gold mine... and Jacqui's going to tell me a little bit about her recipe for running that shop. Hello Jacqui. [Jacquie:] Hello. [Sally:] I think I'll come and sit beside you as there's a spare seat. [LAUGHTER] Can you tell us a little bit about the recipe for running such a successful shop? [Jacquie:] Yes I think that one of the most important things are to have a band of cheerful, helpful, happy, smiling volunteers behind the counter. It makes all the difference to the members of the public and the good will that it builds up is terribly important. The other things that are important are no cups of coffee, no sticky buns on the table... er my helpers don't wear trousers or leggings because helpers, like the goods, come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and some of them look good and some of them don't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jacquie:] Erm... there are all sorts of little rules, the... every black sack that comes in has to be gone through, no matter how grotty, somewhere inside it there might be some really very, very valuable piece of equipment. [Sally:] I think that's right. I'm sure some of you last year... or least last week or even last month, read about the black sack that had all the wonderful jewels in it that came [LAUGHTER] into a charity shop [] and I think it's a lesson for us all isn't it, not not to miss anything in a black sack, Jacqui. [Jacquie:] Absolutely... the other tip with black sacks is tip them out on the floor, do not plunge the hand into it... you get... livestock, and I have actually had teeth. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jacquie:] So it's one of those things to be very wary of. The other thing is window dressing. Window dressing is incredibly important, change the window every other day if possible, look for professional help in every aspect. Hold special events... erm... linen sales, bric-a-brac, anything that's got an appeal to the public, but do it through the window. I mean the seventy fifth we're going to be able to use the window to great advantage, it's going to be a great display time. [Sally:] I'm sure she's right and I hope that's given some of the shop leaders who are sitting round about me, some ideas. I I think we can't emphasise too much the importance of the shop window, don't you agree? [Jacquie:] Oh I think so but above all I think that the helpers and their smiles are the other things that are so important, after all they are the bedrock of the fund. I know you've got some other amusing stories, I don't know if we've time just to tell one more. Have you got one other story to tell us about your shop? There are so many of them. One man came in... took all his clothes off, tried on a load of things and walked out in them. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally:] I think we'd better end the interview there don't you?... Th thank you Jacqui. Oh no you've got something else to tell us. [Jacquie:] One further point is just remember grunge is big fashion so it's mega bucks. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jacquie:] Thank you Jacqui. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] Now it's my very great pleasure to I think probably introduce the youngest member of our audience here today and a very good supporter of Save The Children... erm I am sitting down soon beside Elise who's travelled all the way from Norwich. Hello Elise... I'm going to ask you first of all, how old are you, are you six? [Elise:] No [LAUGHTER] I'm seven []. [Sally:] You're seven are you... oh right. Now you've had a very good idea for fund raising I believe haven't you... and it's something to do with your daddy. Wh what is it, can you tell us about it? [Elise:] Daddy always [LAUGHTER] empties his pockets []. [Sally:] He empties his pockets. Well what does he keep in his pockets? [Elise:] Money. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally:] Lots of money? [Elise:] Yes. [Sally:] I think you... is it the pennies you collect? [Elise:] Yes. [Sally:] And where do you put them when you collect them? [Elise:] In my jar. [Sally:] In your jar... and I think you've also taken this jar to school haven't you? [Elise:] Yes... yes. [Sally:] Are you going to tell me what you did with the jar at school?... I think you asked all the children to help you didn't you? [Elise:] Yes. [Sally:] And... what did you do with that jar? You took it round the school? [Elise:] Nope. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally:] Well, if it was nope what was it, what did you do? Tell us about what you did with your jar. [Elise:] [LAUGHTER] I collected lots of money. [Sally:] That was very good and... we heard somebody else talking about pennies and how important pennies were this afternoon, Patricia Routledge mentioned pennies as well. So with your pennies and her pennies I think we should all make a lot of money for Save The Children, don't you? [Elise:] Yes. [Sally:] Good luck next year. Are you going to do it again for the seventy fifth? [Elise:] Yes. [Sally:] That's wonderful... and thank you so much for coming today. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] I'm now going to look for another young person who's sitting here in our audience. I'm looking for Ismar who's come all the way down from Dundee to be with us today. She's a student at Dundee University and has had some brilliant fund raising ideas amongst her friends at the University and she's here sitting in the front row. If I... sit beside you I think that's easier... hello Ismar. [Ismar:] Hello. [Sally:] Now I believe you've had a fashion show is that right? [Ismar:] Yes erm, my sister and I organised a charity fashion show in aid of Somalia last year. [Sally:] A and what made you raise money for Somalia, did you see something on television or. [Ismar:] Oh yes we saw the the news reports... found them rather disturbing... erm we thought we'd do something to help and decided on a fashion show. Erm, we thought it'd appeal to young people and... we thought it'd be great fun, which it was, and we raised er one thousand seven hundred pounds. [Sally:] Congratulations. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] You told me earlier it was fun. What else did you do apart from the fashion show? [Ismar:] Erm... well we had a a big raffle erm we wrote away to all the local shops and restaurants ask them to donate prizes and we raised a lot of money through that and also my mum erm cooked Indian snacks which we sold during the interval erm which everyone loved and... so it worked quite well. [Sally:] And I think there was a bit of dancing was there? [Ismar:] Yeah well we we thought we would erm erm try and get the... Asian community involved and we included some sequences with Asian clothes with Asian music an tha that was all very impressing for for the white people as well as the Asian people in the audience. [Sally:] What a good idea and those of you sitting round who have a lot of Asian students at your universities, I'm sure that's a very good idea for you all to think about for next year. I think we want to be encouraging young people because you told me that they're all quite keen to do something for Save The Children Fund now it's the seventy fifth year. Would you like to say a little bit about that? [Ismar:] Oh yes, I mean if there's that you're good at or... if you've got a good idea that's simply fun I'm sure all young people would be really willing to help. [Sally:] Thank you very much and thank you for coming down and talking to us today. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Sally:] Thank you all. I have really enjoyed hearing your fund raising stories. Everyone... have a good seventy fifth year. Keep up the good work and really rise to birthday challenge. The children are counting on it.... Thank you all and goodbye and I'd now like to thank... hand over to Nicholas Hinton. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Nicholas:] Thank you... very much Sally. Watch it Kilroy Silk. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicholas:] Your Royal Highness... ladies and gentlemen... the foundations of Save The Children. May I begin this afternoon... by adding my thanks to those of previous speakers for all that you've done to raise money for Save The Children during the past year... you are tremendous.... I have just completed a round of visits to most of the fund raising regions... in England and Wales... and I've been most impressed by the preparations that are underway to prepare for our seventy fifth birthday. Of course preparations in themselves do not raise money. That, together with the continuing recession, explains why we are this year having a very tight year, financially. This fact makes it imperative that we all succeed and have a tremendously successful seventy fifth. I have every faith in every one of you.... If I had any criticism of our organisation... it would be that we have a tendency to hide our light... under a bushel. We seem somehow, to be shy of shouting from the rooftops of our many, many achievements over the years, here in the United Kingdom and overseas. Last week... last Thursday... saw the launch by the disasters emergency committee, of which Save The Children is a part, of another appeal for Africa. Among the ten African countries for which the appeal was made, there was a mix of hope, on the one hand, hope for progress in Eritrea... or Liberia, Mozambique... or Ethiopia... and on the other hand, countries of despair... Somalia that we've heard about today, or southern Sudan... and of course, Angola. I'm certain that those of us who heard Mike... Save The Children's overseas director on the Today programme... or our field director in Angola on the evening television news yesterday, can have... hold nothing but pride, what they had to say of Save The Children's work in that country, a country described as... the heart of darkness... a country with the world's worse infant mortality rate. I was also immensely proud when Gavin Campbell, who fronted last week's B B C D E C appeal,... told me that words could not describe the tremendously high quality of Save The Children's work in Malawi, Mozambique and Sudan, which he had recently visited in order to film for the D E C appeal. That I believe was, perhaps unfortunately, obvious from the film itself. We do indeed, thanks entirely to you all, have a great track record. Anything that you can do to support the D E C appeal for Africa... will be more than welcome. It has so far reached a total of rather over half a million pounds.... As you well know our mission statement, Save The Children's vision, commits us to using our experience gained here and overseas to achieve lasting benefits for children on a far wider scale than would be the case if we just confined our work to those children and families who happen to be involved in the projects we run.... Let us go back to the beginning, to nineteen nineteen. For we can be rightly proud of one of Eglantine Jebb's major achievements five years later... that of drawing up the original first ever charter on the rights of the child... and persuading the then league of nations to adopt it. As you know, this early and admirably simple document eventually became the basis of the U N convention on the rights of the child adopted unanimously by the U N in nineteen eighty nine and since by the majority of member states as mentioned by the Princess Royal this morning. It is worth reflecting what a most remarkable contribution women have made to Save The Children throughout its seventy four years history. This fact reminds me of a tale I was told in the States recently whereby President Clinton and his wife Hilary and Major Kay... drove into a garage, quite why this was necessary the tale does not relate, as the petrol or gas attendant began to fill up the limousine, Hilary Clinton leaped out of the car and became involved in an animated conversation with the petrol attendant. On her return to the car the President said how is it you know this petrol pump attendant so well?... Mrs Clinton replied that she'd been at college with him and they'd had a very close relationship. The President mused, I don't think so.... So... claiming that had this relationship continued Hilary would probably have ended up as the wife of a petrol pump attender rather than the wife of the President of the United States. No, recorded Hilary, had I married him, he would have become President of the United States. [speaker001:] [clapping] [LAUGHTER] [Nicholas:] Moving on, I am sorry... we need to, to nineteen forty five which saw Save The Children's first involvement with pre-school playgroups here in the United Kingdom. Now a facility that is almost universally available if often under funded. Nine years later, in nineteen fifty four, S C F pioneered hospital playgroups and now, again commonplace, if again under-funded. Twenty years later as many of you will remember Save The Children launched its stop polio campaign which in turn led to polio prevention becoming an integral part of world wide immunisation programmes. How many lives has that... have you, saved?... In nineteen ninety one we'll all recall the desperate scenes of our television screens of Kurdish refugees scrambling up the mountains, fleeing from Iraq's Saddam Hussein. The delivery of essential supplies, clothing, food, shelter to those people seemed ad hoc at best. It was this episode that led S C F on the path... to arguing for a reform of the international system for humanitarian relief. S C F has much experience to back up such an initiative. Experience in Ethiopia, Angola, Cambodia or Sudan. We may, indeed we have not, always made ourselves popular in arguing for reform of humanitarian aid system but it has certainly been effective and we are never, but never, ignored. I was reminded of this in a recent villit, village a visit to the United Nations in New York. I went to meet a friend in the cafeteria there for coffee. We got the coffee, he paid for it and we walked to the remotest part of the canteen, behind a sort of screen, why here I said. I wouldn't be seen dead with you in here was his reply. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicholas:] In nineteen ninety S C F began its work providing facilities for prisoner's families in Crumlin road in Belfast, Norwich prison, Strangeways and here in London's Holloway prison for women which I visited at the beginning of June. This has enabled S C F to persuade the Home Office's prison department to run such facilities and budget for such facilities in every prison to be rebuilt and there appears to be no shortage of those, or designed from herein after.... This very year, Save The Children's reports making ends meet and our contribution to the world health survey have enabled radical alterations to be made to the world communities practice with regard first to nutrition and food aid, particularly in East Africa and secondly to primary health care practice. This is a magnificent record, thank you... and... and in nineteen ninety three I would like to announce the day that Save The Children has been unanimously chosen by the charities aid foundation as its first recipient of the charity of the year award nineteen ninety three. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Nicholas:] This in my view, is a tremendous tribute to everybody in this hall and the many thousand who cannot be with us today. Well done.... I'm proud in your name, I shall be proud in your name... to receive this award from the Home Secretary, Michael Howard on four November at the cunan Queen Elizabeth Hall here in London. Well done you and a very, very special thanks to the Princess Royal, without whose leadership it would not have been possibly at all. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Nicholas:] On a somewhat linked matter, you will I am sure, have read of the Home Office sponsored report on voluntary organisations or charities published last week. I do not want to waste your time today discussing this rubbish. I just want [speaker001:] [clapping] [Nicholas:] I just want to let you know that chief among my criticisms of this report, it is is that it is a total insult to all of you, who give of your time freely to a unique cause to which we all belong. To remove charitable status, at a cost of some five million pounds a year to Save The Children Fund, to relegate us to the status of a quango, is absolute rife nonsense. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Nicholas:] Let us give the report no more publicity, it does not deserve it.... Europe has figured large in the past year and I am delighted that Save The Children is among the first of United Kingdom non-governmental organisations to establish an office in Brussels and mount... a pan- European operation. My thanks are due to all those, including volunteers, who have become engaged in this initiative. I am confident that in some ten years time, Save The Children will be a strong pan-European organisation, perhaps the strongest as such within the European Community.... Well at the end of the day all our work is for the benefit of children, individual children, individual human beings like you... or like me. Perhaps the most lasting memory I have of the past year is a conversation with a small nine year old boy in Liberia in West Africa in August. He was resident in an orphanage which is supported by Save The Children. A boy who during the vicious war in Liberia, has seen first his mother and then his father, his two elder brothers and his two elder sisters, savagely assassinated in front of his eyes by the guerrilla troops. In the middle of this episode he had fled into the garden, terrified. The soldiers sought him out... he was not assassinated but draughted into the army as a boy soldier. As he told me that he had killed perhaps ten, eleven or twelve people during the course of the war.... An agonising first nine years of life, this was a little boy who had seen things that little boys and little girls should never see. Thank God for the work that S C F is doing there, his only hope through counselling, of being able to regain any form of normality. Thank you very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Mike:] Just before introducing our... final speaker today, I would wish, because I would think you would want this, for me to express thanks to the two key people on my staff who are responsible for organising today. Which I think they call the A P O... annual public.... Appointment Linda Chalker, Baroness Chalker, the Minister for Overseas Development, is unable to be with us today.... She cannot get away from the House of Lords because of important parliamentary business. I think I'm right in saying that she drew a very short straw and is the first reading in the Lords of the bill to privatise the railways. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] We'll send her our good wishes shall we? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] But it gives me great pleasure to introduce Mark Lennox Boyd, the parliamentary under secretary of state, the foreign and commonwealth office, a position he's held for some time. Amongst his responsibilities... are the relationships between the United Nations... and our government and of course for us his very, very special claim to fame... is that he is the younger brother of our former chairman Simon Boyd. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Mark:] Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen. May I add first of all my apologies on behalf of Lynda Chalker that she's not able, due as we've heard, to business in the Lords to be with you today. I know she's disappointed as you are but may I [clears throat] coming in her place... thank Nicholas Hinton and his colleagues for having me at the Barbican at this important annual public meeting. I am delighted to be asked to deliver Lynda's speech to such a large body of people committed... to helping the disadvantaged and to be able to say a few words about how government is meeting the challenges that it faces in the developing world. Now it so happens that I am... in some small way, relatively well qualified to stand here in Lynda's place. In addition to what Nicholas er recounted about my brother, I believe that I... am the only minister in the government, possibly the only member of parliament... who has ever worked for the Save The Children Fund. When I was in Jordan in nineteen sixty five studying Arabic, I helped the Save The Children Fund... operation there for a few months and this was undoubtedly one of the most enjoyable and interesting short periods of my life and I look back on it with great warmth and affection and as your Royal Highness knows, it happens also that many, many years ago... before you were our president, my father occupied your office and I therefore come to this meeting today with some... knowledge of the fund's activities and with great admiration and respect for all the that the fund has achieved. I s certainly shall not stint in my praise of the fund and I would like to add my congratulations on behalf of the government at the recognition that the charities aid foundation has granted to the fund in making it er the charity of the year this year. Let me say right away that partly because of aid... official and through... N G Os such as you, many people in developing countries are living healthier, happier and more secure lives. This kind of good news is so often overlooked because the challenges presented by the developing world do not diminish, indeed they seem to grow, climate change, wars, famine, rising populations, are some of the many complex causes of underdevelopment. Now what I'd like to do this afternoon in the short time that we have is to outline some of the ways in which the British government is helping to meet the challenges of under development. I shall cover our response to the needs of the voluntary sector, of Eastern Europe, of Africa and I shall say a particular few words about the needs of children, the subject which is of course at the very heart of your work. Perhaps I should start by telling you something I'll not be talking about and that is the subject of financial resources and how Lynda's getting on in her discussions with chief secretary, I don't suppose that comes to you as any surprise but I shall I not be talking on that but let me say that we remain committed strongly to a substantial aid programme which as far as possible is directed towards the poorest countries. We continue to support activities which will improve the quality of life of poor people. A significant feature of that support is our assistance to and cooperation with the voluntary sector. Last year S C F programmes received almost eighteen million pounds of the hundred and forty seven million which we channelled through N G Os. This was to support your long term development work as well as emergency and disaster relief. The partnership which we've built up over many years with you means that I'm confident that British tax payers and recipients in er dep developing countries are getting the best possible value for money when government supports S C F initiatives... and what is true for S C F is true for the many other M G, N G Os with whom we work. O D A funding of British N G O activities... has more than doubled in the last three years. This is no accident. N G Os have shown over and over again that by working alongside a community they can help identify the barriers to development experienced by that community and they can support the community as it works to make social and economic progress. This work is both a vital and complimentary part of any balanced aid programme. Now I know that the ma vast majority of everyone here is involved in fund raising for the vital work done by S C F. That too challenges government to respond, I believe that our record is a good one. Since nineteen seventy nine... we have done much to extend and improve the tax incentives available in order to encourage individual and corporate donors to give to charity. Government cannot... and should not do everything. In Britain we... have a rich reserve of good will, energy, commitment in our voluntary sector. We would be failing in our duty if we did not seek to ensure that the very considerable effort of the voluntary sector was not translated into tangible benefits to poor people in developing countries. That is why the support of the government to the voluntary sector has grown so dramatically in recent years. Let me give you some examples. Charities are by and large exempt from income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax. Transfers to charities are exempt from both inheritance tax and from stamp duty. In addition to this... any individual or company making donations to charity under a deed of covenant can get tax relief for their donations. Since nineteen ninety, large single cash donations by individuals and companies attract tax relief. Charities can reclaim pay repayment of basic rates of tax on gifts of as little as even two hundred and fifty pounds. Since nineteen eighty seven it has been possible to arrange for employees to have charitable donations deducted from their pay through the payroll giving scheme. There is also er a very broad range of value added tax reliefs, benefiting charities and the voluntary sectors. Recently... this has meant that V A T relief has been targeted on fund raising by charities such as zero rating of much of their advertising and the sale of donated goods and the exemption of income from fund raising events organised by charities. There are some reliefs where costs cannot be estimated for example on capital gains and inheritance tax lifetime transfer but both direct taxes and... value added tax relief drew in some nine hundred and thirty million pounds on behalf of charities in the nineteen ninety two ninety three financial year. Now this may not be the most compelling subject but it is important for you to know that throughout our term in office, we've not left you on your own as you carry out the task of raising funds for your programme. Now may I say one or two words about our various... several of our bilateral programmes and er perhaps I will start... with er saying a word or two about what the O D A is doing in Eastern Europe. The collapse of communism in the former Eastern block and the disintegration of the former Soviet Union represent a major new challenge the governments have had to face. The particular challenge for donors has been how best to support the fragile but vital process... of transition to a pluralist democracy and market economies in the region. I make no apologies for this... it is self evidently both right and in everyone's interest to do what we can to support this transition process. A process crucial to greater prosperity and stability for us all including developing countries. The needs are substantial. Exposure to market forces and the removal of state subsidies has revealed the weakness of many economic structures in the region. The recent events in Moscow have underlined the difficulties that some of the countries face in establishing new, stable, pluralist systems. Much of our assistance has been in the form of contributions through the multilateral institutions... the European community programmes, the European bank of reconstruction and developing, the world bank. In our bilateral aid the main need was for carefully targeted and flexible assistance in the form of advice, skills and training and our response in this area for our bilateral aid was... the creation of the know how fund for the former Soviet Union and for central and Eastern Europe. They've had a particular focus on assisting the economic transition in the region. For example through health with privatisation of state enterprises and assistance with the creation of small businesses. At a more day to day level we've helped improve food quality in the Ukraine and have provided advice on improving bread supplies in Moscow. We've also worked with a number of N G Os to help the development of voluntary agencies in the region. Both... through the charity know how fund as well as the establishment of special voluntary programmes. In Russia for example we intend to launch a small partnership fund to support small projects promoted by the voluntary agencies in the United Kingdom who've developed a wide range of connections with their Russian counterparts. A substantial number of British N G Os are already responding the challenges of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and many more including er yourselves are beginning to pay... er attention to it. Well I've said a few words about the Soviet Union but I would like to add... that our programme of assistance to the Soviet Union and to other countries in central and Eastern Europe, while it's had to grow rapidly in response to the urgent needs of reg region, it does not... it has not grown and will not grow in any way er which will undermine our commitment to the developing world and er perhaps on that note I might turn to... Africa. We hear much about the seemingly intractable, intractable problems of Africa. Indeed the nineteen eighties was a wretched decay er for that continent, famine... deterioration in terms of trade, higher world interest rates, poor economic policies, undemocratic governments, all conspired against progress in Africa. Africa was fe falling further and further behind but things are changing... economic and political form is taking root across the continent and showing return. The twenty core countries benefiting from the special programme for Africa achieved economic growth of nearly four percent in the year nineteen eighty eight,i the years nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety. Faster than before the ruror than before the reforms were introduced and faster than population growth, leaving room there for for some modest increase in average incomes. Now... in the years nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety two Britain spent... four hundred and five million pounds of its financial aid programme in Africa, about forty percent of the total and we shall continue to respond to the demands and challenges that Africa presents. But external assistance alone cannot deliver sustainable development and st political stability. Success must depend on the efforts and policies of the countries themselves. Africa's reliance on aid is already dangerously high, it is sobering to contrast the difference in aid levels between Asia and Africa. Five pounds per capita in the former... er five dollars per capita in the former against thirty four dollars per capita in the latter. Private investment, domestic... and foreign needs to be increased and the public sector made more efficient and effective. We need to improve the quality of public expenditure with more money on primary health care and education and less on defence and parastatal subsidies. Donors will help, Britain's commitment of five hundred and fifty million pounds for the special programme of assistance to Africa since nineteen eighty, is testimony to that... but African governments must own their reform programmes. Real political commitment to better government and sensible economic policies is essential. The challenge is to strengthen and deepen the economic reform process. Now when talking about economic reform... I am very well aware of the shadow hanging over... most African countries' debt. For some the burden is crippling, threatening their economic viability. Britain has long ha led the way in providing er help. The existing Trinidad terms are a result of a British initiative. They've had the effect of halving the value of payments due to creditors during the period... of an I N F agreement and have benefited seventeen countries so far including thirteen in sub-Saharan Africa. But we're not content in in the government to let it rest there for the... poorest countries, the very poorest countries, even more help is urgently needed. We are therefore pressing for an immediate reduction in the stock of debt for those countries. In pressing ahead we cannot... er overlook the position of the poorest. [break in recording] Reduction to be increased beyond the existing fifty percent to eighty percent for the most needy. Not all creditor countries are ready to go beyond fifty percent and we do need to move forward multilaterally... but there is increasingly widespread support for our proposals. The Tokyo summit called for all ed poorest, most indebted including the possibility of earlier action on the stock of debt. You will certainly not find a more determined or persistent advocate of full Trinidad terms than Britain. But economic reform also needs good government and these are the two major planks of Britain's aid policy for Africa. A free press and the close scrutiny of freely elected assemblies will help to root out corruption and mis-management. A conscious decision is needed to get government out of things the private sector does better and to concentrate government on the basic things that only governments can do. It must for example, ensure an independent judiciary, provide health and education services, basic infrastructure and maintenance and it must bring about the economic environment that allows the private sector to create jobs and growth.... In pressing ahead we cannot... er overlook the position of the poorest, the social costs of not adjusting are much higher and affect many more people than the costs of adjusting... but we must be prepared to help those at the bottom of society to cope and this is where you, as N G Os can play a special role. Let me give you one example. In the district of Ethiopia... the O D As joint funding scheme is assisting with the implementation of a water supply project. In the villages of the region women and children spend many hours each day walking to a spring where the water trickles out of the ground to collect water in twenty kilo twenty litre pots weighing over twenty kilos. The task is anything but easy, particulary for the young children who are involved. By piping water from the perennial spring, this project will provide drinkable water to over fifty thousand people in the region. Village life in this case, is being transformed at the cost of a mere fifteen pounds per villager. So... amidst the doom and gloom that seems to cloud the the African horizon, we can see that aid does work and in the example I've just given, that it works indeed for children. But there's no room for anyone of course to be complacent about the growing er demand of the needs of children er a subject of such importance here. Seventy years ago your founder Eglantine Jebb drafted a revolutionary and challenging document, a charter which stated that each child has independent rights. The message in this charter has as you know, at last received universal acceptance after many years and much determined effort by those concerned. Save The Children are to be congratulated for the part they played in securing the nineteen eighty nine United Nations convention on the rights of the child. Children have rights to health, education, to be free from physical and sexual abuse, to have a voice in the decisions which affect them and to grow up as responsible and active citizens... but in many countries today... many children stoo still do not enjoy these rights. In the worst cases they have even lost the right to grow up in loving and secure homes, seeking to earn their living on the street or separated from their families by war and civil conflict. How can the British aid programme help? The objectives of our development assistance policy are closely related to the convention on the rights of the child. Key aims of the British aid programme are to alleviate poverty and promote human rights. Many of the problems facing children and their families are caused by poverty. We seek to tackle this by programmes which support economic and social development, which improve education and health care and give parents the chance to have children by choice. But as countries move into much needed economic reform programmes we know that children may be the losers in the very short term and that's why in the O D A we are concerned with helping governments develop social policies which provide adequate safety net provision for children during this process of adjustment. Assisting children to achieve a basic education... is one of O D A's priorities. For many years to come there will be generations of children growing up without the chance of an education... so we have yet another challenge, that of the invisible children. Those not even knowing how to read and write. I want us to think for a moment about the rights and needs of all those millions of children who do not go to school, who are invisible... because very often development programmes tend to ignore... er their needs. It is a terrible irony that although they are invisible to the planners... all of us who've travelled in developing countries cannot fail to have noticed these children out of school. They are busy at work in the market place, in the fields, caring for the younger children, fetching water and fuel, pounding mail maize or mending bicycles, selling goods on the streets, they pulling rickshaws. What rights do these children have when their primary need is to survive in often harsh environments and perhaps even help to support their families. Yes children should be at school and not at work but how can we ignore all those millions of others now growing up without this opportunity. It's because of this particular challenge that O D A funded... er the S C F's recent report on children and income generating programme. I welcome the recommendation in this report that income generating programmes for children need consideration... but with great care in their design. Such children must be assisted in gaining education and skills built around their existing work activities. That is what we are seeking to do in our slum improvement programme and in our programmes for children on the streets. Direct government t t government aid is not... always easy because many of the problems are sensitive, like the exploited child labour in carpet factories, like violence against street children. We therefore er very much value the role of S C F er for four particular reasons. First er... in raising national awareness of the problems, secondly in acting as advocates for children, thirdly in piloting new and innovative methods for helping children and fourthly in acting to protect the interests of children who are the victims of disaster. The challenge of meeting all children's needs and of helping them achieve their rights can only be met by concerted efforts of governments... of multi-lateral agencies and bi-lateral donors, as well as by the path-breaking initiatives of N G Os such as Save The Children. I look forward to continuing our partnership. We must have partnership between government and non-government if we are to achieve any degree of success in our aid efforts. If our partnership is a genuine... and practical one, we can go forward to meet the difficult challenges which face us. Not in a spirit of pessimism on the one hand or of complacent expectation on the other, but with an optimism that is founded in the reality of our shared experience. I am glad we have that partnership with all of you here and it is... on that note, on behalf of the government, that I wish you every possible success as you embark upon your seventy fifth year. [speaker001:] [clapping] [Mike:] Minister thank you very much indeed. I know, I'm sure everybody here would have appreciated the reminder of the considerable encouragement that this government has given since nineteen seventy nine... erm to... adding to charities fiscal benefits, which has added to our income quite considerably. Very interesting to have a review from you of the O D A's work, both with regard to central and Eastern Europe and the developing world and I'm sure I speak for everybody in saying we are delighted minister... that you spent... the third part of your, your speech looking at... the U N convention on the rights of the child which as you rightly say, is very close to the heart of Save The Children.... Well... that's it... thank you all very, very much indeed for coming. I hope you've enjoyed it, I hope you've enjoyed it perhaps more than... some of us dared to. But it's been I think great fun and I will wish to renew my thanks to those who made it possible and that of course is you by being here. Just before we go... we are going to hear a recording of a song that's been referred to which I think is called the greatest love of all which I'm told we'll all know by heart er this time next year hmm... erm anyway on that note if I may... thank you very, very much indeed and I leave you with best wishes for a highly, highly successful birthday year. Bye. [speaker001:] [clapping]

[speaker001:] Good morning erm, oh, it does work, it booms. At least everyone can hear, right? Good morning then, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this annual general meeting of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations. My first, er, but sad duty is simply to say that Sir Kenneth, our President, had hoped to be here, but he's had er, an operation and er, he is not really quite well enough, so I was asked as a Vice-President, whether I would stand in for him, at the weekend, and er I shall do my best, and erm, I'm glad to have to opportunity of doing one or two things, but we'll come to those in due time. Er, I should also re, remind you so my brief informs me, of the no smoking rule, which was adopted at last year's er, A G M, and which means there's no smoking er, in this room at any rate, and certainly not during the meeting. Now, erm, I think that er, we er, should first, er, seek to adopt the minutes of the last meeting which I hope you have all seen and studied with due care and attention, and er, I should like to ask first whether there are any amendments which anyone would wish to put forward, to those minutes? And if not I will move from the Chair, the adoption of the minutes of last year's A G M. Those in favour of that?... And those against? Carried, nemine contradicente. That wasn't bad for early in the morning? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm, good, now then we come to er, well perhaps I should ask first whether anyone wishes to raise any questions arising out of those er, minutes?... Please. [speaker001:] Earmarking round the U K yes? I think it was resolution six on disabled people, er, resolution eight, sorry. The sentence reads [reading], the Council instructs the executive committee, to take whatever steps it considers necessary to ensure that this Council shall employ at least underlined, the minimum legally required number of disabled people. [] I couldn't read a reference in the Annual Report to a review of the this matter, or an agreement that the Council had actually taken this on board, and it was operating. I'm hoping to hear that that is the case. [speaker002:] Simon to er, reply to that point, thank you. [speaker003:] I hope people at the back can hear, erm, we obviously took up action on the resolution passed last year, in two or three different ways. Firstly, erm, we undertook a survey of our own membership er, in order to see what sort of action people were taking themselves, er, about disablement issues, and especially about the employment of disabled people within their own organisation. Erm, we had I think in fairness, a fairly small response to that, and the executive had a discussion recently about how to take the matter forward further. We included in that discussion at the executive what N C V O's own position was and how it would seek to improve own practice. It was agreed at, I think the last executive committee, that as a follow-up to that survey, and to take on board er, N C V O's own practice, a small working group was going to be established of people from disability organisations, those which are both disabled-led organisations, and others, to enable us to take that forward over the next year. So action has been taken, both in terms of our membership and N C V O for itself. [speaker002:] Thank you. Does that erm, answer your question? [speaker001:] yes, that's perfect. [speaker002:] Good, any other questions arising out of last year's minutes?... Alright, now we come to the erm, first resolution, erm, but before I invite Alan Morgan, to er, er, er, propose this resolution let me just say, it will of course be the last occasion, I've never seen such a remarkable er, demonstration of the interest which we all have in the future of Alan. You are surrounded by the latest edition of the N C V O News, so you know that this is the last occasion. I shall have another word to say about him, you're not getting off as lightly as that Alan, er, but erm, I, I think that erm, what I should now do, is to invite him, as our Chairman over the year in question, to er, move the adoption of the Annual Report. [speaker004:] Mr. Chairman, nineteen eighty nine has been a significant year for the voluntary sector, and we have witnessed some important developments, including the publication of the White Paper, Charities, a Framework for the Future. The announcement of the efficiency scrutiny of government funding of the voluntary sector, legislative changes in local government, and Housing Bill, are also likely to change the relationship between voluntary organisations and local authorities. Also the government's recent announcement on Community Care will give voluntary organisations new responsibilities in this important area. There have been significant changes in Brit, British society over the past ten years. Whereas a decade ago, voluntary organisations was perceived largely as an adjunct to the state, now we are increasingly seen as equal and independent partners, working alongside the public and private sectors. Their importance in the economy still needs to be given recognition. We hope that two initiatives by government this year, will help to change that. The first is the White Paper on charity law, which we believe combines the flexibility of the present system of regulation with a set of controls designed to increase public confidence in charitable giving. The second is the scrutiny review of voluntary sector funding, which we hope will encourage the government to use their funding as a strategic resource, to provide a stable back-drop for other forms of fund raising, to assign a proper status to voluntary sector funding and to devise more coherent arrangements for its ad, administration. We are confident these reforms will contribute to the recognition of the voluntary sector, not only as a third force, but as a sector in its own right. At the same time N C V O has been active in addressing voluntary organisations own ability to meet the challenges of a changing world. Among the initiatives which we have undertaken this year, is the establishment of a working party under the Chairmanship of Lord Nathan, to make recommendations on developing and maintaining high standards of effectiveness and efficiency within the sector. Matters under consideration include the role and training of trustees, fundraising, management education, public relations and financial accountability. It must however, be emphasised that these matters are not an end in themselves, but a means of enabling voluntary organisations to achieve their aims and objectives effectively, and I understand that that working party report will be published in February, and we all await it very much. Voluntary organisations' relationship with government is but one aspect. It is equally important that voluntary organisations develop an interface with the private sector. To enable us to do this, N C V O in May, launched a corporate affiliation scheme to enhance the understanding of in, industry about the voluntary sector, and vice versa. To promote partnership between companies and voluntary organisations. Our corporate affiliation scheme which will provide a tailor-made service to companies wishing to develop their links with the voluntary sector, has already attracted more than twenty leading companies into membership. N C V O has the voice of the voluntary sector in England, plays a full part in shaping the development of our society alongside government, the corporate sector, and others. Views of N C V O are based upon policy analysis and development work, with it members, and the wider national and local voluntary sector. Meetings for our members have been held on both of these issues, and in response to the scrutiny review, we circulated our membership with our detailed submission to the government to inform their own responses. Through N C V O's constructive dialogue with government and Parliament, through the Parliamentary Panel on Charity Law, chaired by Tim Boswell, M P, and serviced by N C V O, voluntary organisations have been kept closely in touch with developments on Charity Law. When the White Paper appeared in May there was much to welcome, but not a lot to surprise. In response to N C V O's growing and varied membership, the executive committee have agreed to changes in the way that the organisation works with its members on policy issues, which has helped break down barriers between different interests, as organis, as organisations now meet around generic issues, and issues of concern. A good example of this has been the work on broadcasting and the voluntary sector, which N C V O has embarked upon this year, in response to rapid changes in the broadcasting field, and the government White Paper, Broadcasting in the Nineties, Quality Choice and Competition. A range of organisations including Age Concern, the Community Radio Association, Community Service Volunteers and the Volunteers Centre U K, are now working together with N C V O in the broadcasting consortium, which aims to maintain and develop standards of quality in broadcasting, and promote relationships between broadcasters and voluntary organisations. We have tried to respond to increasing demands from what is now a growing membership. In the spring of nineteen eighty-nine, a number of voluntary organisations involved in running telephone help-lines, came to us about B T's plans to introduce compulsory itemised billing, for all customers over the next few years. Help-lines were very concerned about the effect of that possible breach of confidentiality could have on their services, and the vulnerable people they assist. We responded swiftly co-ordinating a report outl, outlining the possible effects of itemised billing. Through case studies in th, entitled Breach of Confidence, the ensuing widespread publicity and pressure at B T's, A M in July, from N C V O has caused B T to think again. I think a good example of N C V O helping voluntary organisations to help others. This has been another busy year in Parliament, with major legislation affecting the voluntary sector, including the Local Government and Housing Bill and water and electricity privatisation. On electricity privatisation, N V C O played an important role in bringing together voluntary organisations representing consumers of the service with environmental organisations. N C V O works to improve the effectiveness of voluntary organisations at all levels by providing support through advice, training, and consultancies, on very wide variety of issues, and problems. This includes advice on management, financial management, new technology, legal, personnel and other issues. Let me give you a few examples of the way in which our departments work. For many organisations, the first port of call is the legal department, which this year has continued to receive a range of enquiries on charity formation, interpretation of constitutions, company law, trading activities, and the contracting out of services, amongst others. During this year, the legal department has had up to three hundred active cases in hand at any one time, and this shows no sign of slowing down. Our management unit has played a key role in the development of efficient and effective management within the sector. Over this year, the unit has built good links with the Open Universities, and others developing management resources. It is working to ensure that management training is relevant to the sector's real needs and is more widely available. Advice through workshops, training and consultancies is a cost effective means of taking N C V O's expertise to those who need it most. An example of this is the Local Development Unit's short courses programme which organised over one hundred courses last year, through local centres and local trainers. We all know and we all experience that voluntary organisations are changing and are having to change. We're having to become in many ways increasingly professional in a competitive world. The increasing impact of this greater professionalism particularly on salaries for instance has led to a consultancy being provided by N C V O's Personnel Unit, on appropriate levels of pay in one organisation. Each week in addition to the many requests for advice N C V O receives, hundreds of information enquiries about the work of N C V O, about the work of its specialised units, and the work of the voluntary sector as a whole. Our information and intelligent unit receives an average of two thousand letters and over four thousand phone calls each year, as well as countless visitors to the library, many from overseas. The enquiries have been from those in government, both central and local, researchers as well as students, and schoolchildren. Our specialist units also receive many requests for information, and our newest project, WasteWatch has been no exception. The awakening of interest in green issues has meant that WasteWatch in its second year of operation, has seen a dramatic increase in enquiries on waste recycling. Many of those enquiries coming from schoolchildren, which prompted WasteWatch to develop an information pack for use in schools, to ensure that future generations are less wasteful of the world's resources. This year, we launched a new information bulletin, N C V O News, which our Chairman today said, you're surrounded by, and I'm extremely embarrassed by. A monthly publication, containing information and articles on the voluntary sector. Over two thousand organisations receive it, your initial response has been very encouraging, and many people saying within the sector, that it is essential reading. We try and produce a wealth of information and research both for and about the voluntary sector. One report which everyone in N C V O and many more besides wouldn't be without, is the Voluntary Agencies Directory, from which N C V O publishing in print, Bedford Square Press puts out. We try and bring the voluntary sector together to discuss areas of common concern, and a major event in April was training for employment nineteen eighty-nine. The first national voluntary sector on employment training. Another issue of concern to many organisations is the government's review of the National Health Service. The subject again of a conference in April, the N H S and the Voluntary Sector, the Next Forty Years. The conference enabled voluntary organisations who attended to consider the implications of the review for them and their work. I happened to chair that conference, and I think I was surprised by the depressing effect that this reform was seen to hold for so many of our membership, particularly the smaller, local voluntary organisations. The international flavour of our work was much in evidence at the first Johns Hopkins' International Fellow Inthralenthropy Conference held in London in July. We contributed to the programme of this major event, jointly sponsored by the charities, Aid Foundation, and the Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. Now let me for just a few minutes, look forward if that's not too presumptuous for a chair who is moving out. Over the coming year, we expect to consolidate and develop this work. Much work will be necessary to help voluntary organisations devise appropriate funding structures, to support and an increasingly central role in service provision, and to respond effectively to the outcome of the government's efficiency scrutiny. We will be promoting debate on Charity Law issues, and on how voluntary organisations should organise and manage themselves in order to respond to the contract culture, which is being created by changes in the organisation of Community Care, the N H S, the role of local authorities, and other fields. We also intend to play a full part in the debate around the single European market, and nineteen ninety-two. As we move towards the next century, voluntary organisations will need to develop further their contribution not only to our national life, but also to the international community. Against these dramatic changes, we intend to remain at the centre as an effective resource for the voluntary sector, and an important bridge between the sector and others. Voluntary organisations, speaking on the basis of our wide experience in local communities and in national life, are an influential voice which is respected throughout society. Ours is a voice which cannot be ignored, but if we are to use our influence to full effect we must both recognise and be capable of using our strengths. This is where we at N C V O feel we can play a vital role by helping the voluntary sector to recognise this shared interest and above all to act cohesively. For the last three years, N C V O has been at the centre of the critical debates. If we build on and enhance that experience we will be in the right position to face the new decade with confidence and vision. In November nineteen eighty-six, I was elected to succeed Peter Jay as Chairman of N C V O. This year, the call of other duties compel me to step down. I feel that, a very reluctant decision in many ways, but it is, I can assure you, a realistic one. I have found the experience of working in the voluntary sector, first of all as Chair of C V S N A, and vice-Chair of N C V O, for I think about five or six years, and finally as Chairman, in many ways on top of all my other work, exhausting. But in many ways it's been enlightening, exciting, stimulating, and above all enjoyable. I think you would agree that it would invidious to single out any one person to thank. There are N C V O members and staff, my fellow honorary officers and executive members, and so many others who have made it such a rewarding time. Above all I would like to thank the sector for your friendship and warm support, and I have every confidence that Sir Jeffrey, my successor, I assume that resolution two will go through unan, unanimously, will be car, will be able to carry forward with your warm support, the vision I tried to outline for the next year. Finally Chairman, I formally move that the Annual Report for nineteen eighty-eight eighty-nine, be received and adopted, that the statements of account for eighty eight, eighty nine, be received and adopted, and that Touche Ross and Company be appointed auditors for the ensuing year. Thank you all very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] I now call upon Jeffrey Foster, er, honorary treasurer to second that resolution. [speaker005:] Thank you. The accounts that you have for this year, have been rearranged. They've been rearranged and now comply with the statement of recommended practice on accounting for charities. I commend this statement to you, those of you who are responsible for the accounts of your organisations, I hope you will also seek to comply with the, the standard, so that the charities of all organisations, the accounts of all charities can be seen clearly, so that er, you can understand the activities of your organisations from the accounts, and so that one charity can better be compared with another charity. End of commercial though. The effect on our own accounts is that we now show all the mainstream activities of the Council together, and they are then separated out from the entries for all the other funds, appeals, and trust funds and so on. This enables us to show clearly the most important features of the accounts which are the volume of the mainstream activity of the Council, and I'm sad to say the deficit that we incur on that mainstream activity. Last year, I reported to you a deficit of three hundred and thirty thousand. Over ten percent of the turnov, turnover of the Council, and which was in fact doubled from the size of the deficit from the year before that. I had hoped this year to be able to report a turn round and some substantial progress towards our target of achieving a nil deficit for the financial year nineteen ninety-one ninety-two. In fact though, we have merely halted the trend of increasing deficits rather than reversed it, and the deficit for the current year is three hundred and forty four thousand. The reasons for this deficit are largely associated with the, the trend of pay and price increases outstripping our income, and outstripping our projections of what we would have to spend. I think the, this is quite well illustrated by the figures on employees, where the numbers employed fell by getting on for ten percent, though our spending on employees remained about the same, partly as a result of pay increases, partly also, as a result of changes in the profile of grades of the staff at the Council, and a movement towards better staff, better paid, and then finally the saving we make each year as turnover of staff occurs, and we don't have to pay salaries during the handover period from one person to another, that saving that has reduced because the turnover of staff has reduced. I have to say also that the future looks even tougher for us. The current trend of pay and price increases is more than we had hoped, and it's, it's certainly more than er, than er, the planned increase in our income will cover, and I have to say that the rate of turnover of staff has reduced even further and so we will be spending more on staff for that reason than we had planned. Nevertheless our target of erm, achieving a nil deficit by nineteen ninety-one ninety-two does remain, and therefore radical action is required to enable the Council to continue to deliver services effectively in the context of continued financial constraint. And we will therefore need to exercise great judgement and realism in the assumptions we make in planning for the future. Not only on, on the expenditure and the changes required, but also on planning our response to changes which will happen in the future, because it is unlikely that we will ever be able to forecast everything which will happen to us exactly. The deficit this year was met from the legacy fund and the appeal fund. The appeal fund contributed two hundred thousand which is its target for annual income. The balance was met from the legacy fund. Overall if you look at the balance sheet, it still appears quite healthy, erm, nevertheless, I must point out that the balance sheet is composed largely of funds with specific purposes, and these specific purposes do not include simply propping up deficits on the mainstream activities. So we can't use the funds in our balance sheet, simply to carry on the way we are, we have to change. And we need to use the reserves that we do have in the balance sheet, we need to spend them wisely in order to achieve our objectives, our objectives for change, and we must recognise that they can only be spent once. Nevertheless I would like to end on, on a brighter note, erm, those of you who are avid students of the accounts will have spotted the contingent liability of twenty eight thousand six hundred and sixty. Basically we are required to report anything erm, any liability which we know about, which doesn't actually formally have to appear in the main accounts but which could arise in the future. I'm happy to say that this, this matter which arose from a misunderstanding on the basis of a grant from the European Social Fund. This matter has now been resolved and no liability exists for the Council. I therefore second the, the first resolution, that the report and accounts should be adopted and the auditors should be reappointed. [speaker002:] Thank you erm, Jeffrey. Now er, before I put the resolution to the vote er, er, I'm sure that all of us would welcome any comments or suggestions or questions that any of you might wish to put to us here. So, let's have er, anyone who wishes to indicate that?... I think in my experience, this is unique. Erm, don't hold back,... it's your opportunity.... Alright, well then er, with that expression, of what I hope to be confidence, [clears throat], in erm, the management of our affairs over this last year, erm, let me put the resolution at, as on the paper before you, I won't read it again. Resolution number one to the meeting, those in favour?... Er, those against?... That appears to be carried unanimously. Thank you for that. Now it would be invidious of me to er, speak at any rate at this juncture, er, on resolution two, that is the appointment of honorary officers, but I understand that Elizabeth Davies er, is ready to propose it. [speaker006:] We've just had a remarkable vote of confidence I think, in management but N C V O, like many organisations relies very heavily on the abilities, energy and commitment of its honorary officers. We have been and are very well served in N V C O. Our President, Sir Kenneth, our vice-presidents, and in particular, the Chair, the Vice-Chairs, and Treasurer, give us a great deal of their time, and I do mean give, as they work for many hours on behalf of N C V O without payment. I hate to think what effect it would have on our deficit if it included realistic costings of the value of their time. And we really do appreciate it. Our two Vice-Chairs, Barbara, and Kay are well known to all of you. Towers of strength and energy, whose experience and judgement is invaluable to us. Our Treasurer, Jeffrey Foster, has the sort of job usually described as thankless. Persuading others to accept the hard financial facts of life is not usually a very popular job, but he does it with great tact and skill, and under his guidance I do believe that our deficit is under control, and that it will be reduced. We do thank him most sincerely for his work. I am very glad that all three of these people are willing to stand for office again. Alan Morgan, our Chair since nineteen eighty-six and active in the organisation for years before, is not standing this year as Chair, for a very happy reason which you all know about from the erm, literature on your seats. He will be missed although the contribution he has made will remain with us in the present form of N C V O, to which he very greatly contributed. I'm glad he's agreed to stand as a Vice-President. A candidate for the first time for the Chair that Alan has left is Sir Jeffrey. New to N C V O perhaps, but with a wealth of experience in government, industry and the voluntary sector. He began his career originally as a journalist, working for the B B C and the Financial Times, before he moved into industry. He has strong interests in education, and management training and much experience of negotiating with government, something that we all need in N C V O. For some years he's been a member of the Council for Voluntary Service Overseas. I know that all his experience will be called upon in the new role he's ready to undertake on behalf of us all. We very much appreciate his willingness to join us. I have great pleasure in proposing the honorary officers for appointment as they are printed on your order paper. [speaker002:] Thank you and now Colin, er, is er, to second this resolution. [speaker007:] Hello, yes, right, thank you. I can do no more than endorse the statement made by the proposer and would just like to formally second the proposal resolution number two. Thank you. [speaker002:] Erm, does any member of the Council wish to make any comment on this resolution before I put it formally to the vote?... Very well, I will put it then to you, that er, resolution two as printed on your order paper, should be approved by the Council, those in favour?... And those against? Well that's seems also to be carried unanimously. And on behalf of all those who have received this support from you, I should like to say thank you. Now there are two other things I want to er, say at this juncture. Or rather two other people to speak of. You will have read what I think to be a very reasoned and properly enthusiastic tribute to Alan by Peter his predecessor in the Chair, in this number of N C V O News, which incidentally I think is er, er, er, a considerable step forward from the various er, experiments, and the like that we have er, conducted over the years. Alan and I served er, together as er, deputy Chairs, or vice-Chairs or whatever the appropriate words are for several years er, and I erm, well I think I would adopt the words that he used about the experience that he has had in the Chair, to whit, that his companionship and his contribution to our affairs has been stimulating, enlightening and particularly enjoyable. Erm, I'm very glad that his er, departure from the Chair does not signify any lessening in his commitment to er, our work and activities. It is a big job, it doesn't just mean changing the colour of your stock, er, and it's difficult to think of erm, er, Alan wearing the purple so to say, but erm, I'm sure he, I went to his consecration in York about two months ago, it was a very moving and er, enjoyable occasion and he's erm, er, now entered upon that inheritance. [clears throat] I can hardly forebear, I'm sorry for, if it's er, a bad pun, but er, I can hardly forbear to say that it may be that I, that diocese can do with what one might describe as a dash of the Robin Hood's, which I think Alan may er, bring to it. So Alan you go with our warm thanks and our very best wishes for a future which I know will be as valuable to the church as it will lead to a gap in our ranks which it will be difficult to fill. Now then erm, if anyone erm, can perhaps achieve that objective, I think it is your, our new Chairman, Jeffrey. One of the things he, er, did, er, as was remarked erm, by er, Barbara, was erm, to erm, er, be a broadcaster and journalist, many years ago now Jeffrey. Well I also was er, er, a producer then in the B B C and so he and I had some cheerful encounters at that time, since when he has obviously gone from strength to strength. I need not bore you with er, a recital of his many accomplishments, I just would single out one additional one, and that is, his sterling work for the Royal Society of Arts, er, its shorter name, erm, of which he has pioneered really, the development of an activity described as industry matters. Thus to bring to all our attention how much it matters for the encouragement of arts, commerce and trade which er, for manufacturers which is the full title of the Royal Society of Arts. So we're very lucky indeed, I say without any hesitation whatever, that Jeffrey has been willing to take on this

[speaker001:] additional responsibility. We look forward very much to his succession to the Chair, and we wish him very well and I know that he can count on the full support of all the honorary officers, and all of you as members of the Council as he takes on these new responsibilities. So, I gather that Jeffrey would like to say a word or two, and at this stage, and if he would he would be welcome to do so, meanwhile er, as I've said, I hope you will join me in wishing er, the Bishop god speed, and in wishing Jeffrey very well for the future. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker003:] Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, it isn't that I would like to say a word, it is that told me to say a word, and I realise I am starting off in the right way. May I say how deeply honoured I am to be invited to chair N C V O. I am acutely conscious with a degree of trepidation and indeed humility, that I face a huge challenge in following in Alan's footsteps. You would anyhow not expect on this occasion any words of wisdom from me, indeed my wife and four daughters would doubtless tell you that you should never expect words of wisdom from me. So may I simply say briefly, but nonetheless with emphasis and sincerity two things. First that I believe the causes you serve are vital to the welfare and happiness of people in this country, and that they will become more so in future. And secondly, that I will do my utmost to serve you and those causes to the best of my ability. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker001:] Very well, I'll, let's just then move on to resolution number thr,thr, three as printed on your order paper. I don't propose to go right er, through it. I once chaired at, somebody may remember a sort of constitutional commission as it was grandly called, which we went through all these things with a tooth-comb in order to try to get the composition of the executive committee er, right and appropriate for er, this current time. So let me confine myself simply to inviting erm, Penny, to propose the resolution.... Those are mine, my, my, my You can come to this one if you will. [speaker004:] It gives me pleasure to move the adoption of resolution three, that the executive committee be constituted as on page two of the resolution paper to consist of not more than thirty two members, and that those people listed on page two, be elected members of the executive committee. I'd also like to add a great thanks to the retiring executive committee for all the hard work that they've done during the past year. Thanks. [speaker001:] And Paula, if she will to second the resolution. [speaker005:] I'm happy to commend all these names to the meeting and to second the resolution. [speaker001:] Is er, are there any comments or questions that any member of the Council would wish to put forward before we vote on this resolution?... Alright, then er, it has been proposed and seconded, and er, those in favour?... And those against?... Very well, that is carried certainly, nem con, quite possibly unanimous although it's rather hard to see into the far corners. Erm, so we come to special resolution number one, which is as set out on your order paper, which is to do with the replacement of a, er, clause in our Memorandum of Association, and I will invite Jeffrey to move it. [speaker006:] Thank you. There are er, two special resolutions this year and they both relate to our investment powers. Erm, we set up an investment panel of the erm, the executive committee to specifically to look in detail at our investment policy, in the light of resolution four at the nineteen eighty-seven A G M. We've met with our investment advisors on several occasions, and we have considered our in, investment policy in some detail. We propose to establish a, an investment charter which will set out our policy and in particular balance the duties of us as trustees. Our duty is to secure the best return we possibly can or on, on our investments and yet at the same time to have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council itself. We've made some progress towards establishing the criteria which we should set out in our policy, and the mechanisms needed to control that policy. However, we have I'm sorry to say, identified two constraints in our powers, and we cannot make further progress until these constraints have been removed. We need to deal with these constraints by special resolutions which will amend our Memorandum of Association. The first constraint relates to the range of investments which are available to us as trustees. At present we're limited by the powers available under the Trustee Investment Acts nineteen sixty-one, this sets out the amounts which we may invest in narrow and wide ranges of investment. In general terms the narrow range of investments are fairly, very safe and secure investments, but they are ones which are less likely to secure higher returns but of course also, less likely to secure risks of low returns. The wider range is erm, what might be termed more speculative investments, but there are many shares available within the wider range which are in fact extremely sound and safe investments, and the sort which we as trustees would wish to invest in. Now at, at the moment we have to keep fifty percent of our investments in the narrow range and we may place fifty percent in the wider range. I have to say though, that when we the Council advise other charities on the investment powers that they should take when they're established and when they draft their Memorandum of Association, erm, we advise them to take wider powers er, than these, and we advise them that they should not seek to constrain themselves by the Trustee Investment Act nineteen sixty-one, as our own flexibility is constrained. The, the result of this, this constraint on us is that it reduces our opportunity to secure the best returns available. There are better returns available from wider range investments than from narrow range investments, and better returns without unnecessarily increasing our risks. Secondly the, the constraint reduces the opportunity that we have to pursue the ethical investment policies which will have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council as a whole, and then lastly there is the matter of practicality. Erm, since the wider range investments on the whole tend to increase in value more rapidly than the narrower range investments, then as the investments in the normal course of management are bought and sold, the proportion which you have invested in the wider range tends to increase faster than the proportion that you have invested in the narrower range. We therefore would need to do some quite careful accounting in order to make sure that we didn't contravene that erm, the, the requirement of the Trustee Investment Act in the future. So we wish therefore to remove this first constraint on our powers and I'd emphasise again that it is, is our intention to use, it's not our intention to use the wider powers to increase the risks, it's simply to improve er, our ability to gain the best returns and satisfy the objectives of the Council. The trustees will still be bound by a duty to act prudently and in the best interests of the Council and its members. I therefore move the first special resolution. [speaker001:] Thank you, is erm, David here? I've rather doubt that he might not be and, and then Bert er, has very kindly said that he would erm, stand in for him to second this resolution. [speaker002:] I formally second the resolution, Chairman. [speaker001:] Thank you. Erm, well I think that er, the report of these er, resolutions and er, of this resolution, and er, so er, but there may be questions or comments on it, so... no alright, then er, let me put it to you. That is, special resolution number one, on your order paper be approved. Those in favour?... Those agin?... None. Thank you. Would you like then to go on, erm, Jeffrey, to special resolution number two? It's a kind of accompanying resolution to the one that you have just passed. [speaker006:] Thank you. The trustees in acting prudently on investments need to take advice, and, and we have done so for many years, and our investment advisors are currently Schroder Investment Management Limited. Under the Financial Services Act, a number of provisions have been passed to protect investors, erm, and N C V O, as an investor also comes under the protection of the Financial Services Act. One, one particular requirement of the Act is that there should be a management agreement between the investors and the investment advisors. This management agreement is to formally set out the relationship between them to establish the investment policies to be pursued, the powers of the trustees or the investors, and the investment advisors, to establish clearly the fees and charges which are to be made by the advisors and the basis on which they will be made. To establish how the advisors shall report on their activities to the investors, and to set out any other conditions which the investors may wish to establish. The Financial Services Act also requires for a body such N C V O that their Memorandum of Association should actually include an explicit power to use investment advisors. This second special resolution is designed to enable us to comply with that requirement of the Financial Services Act. There are however, a number of safeguards in that resolution. In particular the resolution requires that we the trustees, should establish clear policy guidelines, and the investment panel I hope, will very shortly be able to do that. Secondly it requires that all transactions made on our behalf shall be reported promptly, I, I would emphasise that this is already the practice the investment tr, er, transactions are already reported to our Finance Department and trustees of course, must sign the necessary transfer forms. Thirdly there is a power for the trustees to revoke or amend the agreement at any time. And then lastly there is an obligation on us to review at least annually, the position of our advisors. As you know we meet with our advisors, at least twice a year, and we effectively review that erm, that agreement at those six month points. But we may also in the future, wish to review it more formally and consider what other, er, arrangements we might make. So I would emphasise then, again, that the resolution is intended to enable the present position to continue, and to enable your trustees to manage the funds effectively in setting the policy and benefiting from the advice which is available. I therefore move the second special resolution. [speaker001:] Thank you Jeffrey. Perhaps Mr. Spencer would oblige again, erm, by seconding this resolution. [speaker002:] I formally second the resolution, Chairman. [speaker001:] Right, thank you. Erm, now any comments or que, or questions or whatever er, on this resolution? Resolution number, special resolution two, as printed on your order papers?... [speaker002:] just to say [speaker001:] I was afraid that everyone had lost their voices, er, it's good to have a, a question. [speaker002:] Yes, this is a question on the er, resolution two, item five. It talks about the Council remaining liable. Er, is the Council or is it the trustees remain liable, I'm unclear on that point? [speaker001:] Perhaps Jeffrey would like to deal with that, or Adrian. [speaker006:] I think er, Joe, it might be more appropriate perhaps if our legal advisor tells us of the niceties of the clause which he drafted. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, Adrian. Gentlemen, this is a clause based on a provision recommended by the Charity Commission. The answer here is a very technical one, but the trustees of an organisation of this kind are of course the, the executive committee. They're the directors in, in company law, but they're the executive committee names in the Memorandum of Association. They're also the charity trustees, and I think it would be true to say that in the very final analysis they are the people who are ultimately responsible. Does that erm, meet your point? [speaker002:] Yes, I believe that actually it should be the responsibility of the officers of an association to take the responsibility. They are reported to, they define the policy, and I don't believe that it's the intention of the executive committee to come to this meeting every time there's a change of investment policy. I don't believe that would be the practice, and therefore I believe the executive committee as the trustees and custodians on our behalf, in this matter, should take the responsibility, and I would have preferred the trustees rather than the Council to have been stated at that point. [speaker001:] Jeffrey, Adrian. If, if as I understand it, it's a matter of law, and the practice will be much as just suggested, is that a correct er, interpretation. So I think your point is in effect met, but we have to observe very properly the requirements of the law. Right, erm, any other comments or suggestions on special resolution number two? Very well, may I put it to you that this special resolution be adopted. Those in favour?... and those against? Thank you er, and that is passed.... Now we have er, erm, reached the conclusion of the formal part of the, this Annual General Meeting. At the next session, will be chaired by Kay, and er, she will tell us what she is about as it were, erm, in a moment. Before that, there are one or two other things I should like to do, er, in particular to thank Tunstall Telecom for their spart, part sponsorship of this meeting. They're very much involved with networked community care, to use their own phrase, and those of you who want to know more about them, they've got a stall outside, and er, their wares so to say, are set out for you to see. Erm, otherwise it remains only to say thank you very much for coming, I hope you've found the experience helpful. I'm grateful to you for your readiness to fall in with the proposals made, and er, I have enjoyed the opportunity to chair this A G M. The meeting is now concluded. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker007:] It is for people properly funded by a democratic enabling local state and under con, the control of those who have no pecuniary interest in the development of care. Voluntary organisations er, can do this and are in the best place to undertake this. Of course we must be cautious about taking on difficult tasks as if to prove our social virility. This was put well by Diana, and her colleagues in a Policy Studies Institute report a couple of years ago. [reading] Voluntary organisation they said, in their desire for recognition and funds, sometimes seem all too willing to conspire with the statutory sector on the basis that they can do the impossible, but miracles take a little longer. [] Voluntary organisations, as Diana and her colleagues said, should have the confidence to suggest that although under the right conditions and with the right resources, er, they may be able to do the impossible, miracles are not on offer. The communitarian state would provide those resources to in,in, to do what perhaps has been traditionally seen as the impossible, but it will require extensive support. Health authorities and local authorities must be encouraged to come to see the necessity of providing local umbrella groups such as Councils for Voluntary Service, with grant aid to develop industrial relations expertise, er, marketing help, P R help, and so on. If not voluntary organisations may be able to obtain some of those from the private sector if they know where to look. Perhaps C V S's can act as er, brokers for relevant professional services. But the important thing is that the voluntary sector must hijack the trends from the old statism to the new individualism, and steer it into a better way. We've got to be pro-active about this, it's no good simply sitting back and waiting for whatever government is in power, to impose certain regulations, certain restrictions, certain proposals. From being mainly voluntarily established we must see the development of new catalysed organisations meeting specific needs. Statutory agencies will have to use a judicious mixture of grant and contract to help set up new organisations run by the community for the community, to create the range and choice required by consumers. The voluntary sector I believe must accept those developments whilst at the same time, demanding effective regulation and monitoring to create a managed community market. Although some of the worst fears of those who dislike the market mentality can be discarded there is no doubt that complete freedom of competition particularly in social care, will not work. This strategy requires a major change in the way voluntary organisations perceive themselves, and the way local and central government perceives the community. Some of the trends are already there, others need to be encouraged. None of it will be easy. The voluntary sector though, has a greater role to play now than ever before, both as advocate and service provider. They will need extensive support from N C V O and other groups, er, to be able to undertake that task. If central and local government are serious in their intent to create choice and consumerism, what I would call welfare consumerism in health and social care, then they must also take seriously the need to support voluntary organisations trying to meet those aspirations. By and large I do not believe that people want for profit organisations running human service delivery. Indeed I don't believe the private sector can get into the community in the way that er, not for profit, communitarian organisations can. What we need is to get the best of both worlds, an enhanced and more competent community providing care, support and help to individuals efficiently but without dumping disadvantaged people onto unsupported relatives. There is of course, an opportunity to use money currently locked up in large institutions and statutory organisations more productively through local effort. That is the challenge for local government. The current government must recognise that it cannot continue to go down the line of an individualist anxiety- ridden state, of competitive individuals where the poor and disabled are left to starve on city streets. On the other hand, Labour and other opposition parties, cannot just reassert the old statist notions about public funding of public production. Whichever of the two main parties forms the government of the early nineteen nineties, it will have to create a greater consensus in health and social care as well as other areas of our national life. Not only that, but a fuller consensus morality is also required. The voluntary sector is probably the only vehicle by which that dialogue can take place. I believe the voluntary sector is on the brink of massive change, there will be those who cannot cope, and will harp back to the old authoritarian days of small grants and sherry with the Chair of Social Services. There will be those who just cannot get into gear, who will watch the private sector take over many of the functions which have been, previously been run by local government. But there will be those who will grab the trends and steer them into a new direction. The scope for the voluntary sector and not for profit activity in the nineteen nineties is immense, it will not be expansion just for its own sake, but principled entrepreneurial activity aimed to make the most of opportunities on behalf of the community. Being of the community can assist in empowering the community to provide better services and support for disadvantaged and disabled people. Er, at the same time, the voluntary sector can assist in developing a new shared morality. A highest common factor of our collective conscience. Nothing less will do. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker008:] Well I'm not sure how you follow that, exciting challenges, persuasive ideas, sound strategic proposals for the future, not to mention a word with which not all of us may be entirely familiar, and I include myself among them, communitarian. Er, we have set questions on the agenda, and Chris, I think we've time? Yes, just for a few questions if you've gathered your thoughts together. There's so much in what Chris has said is there not, that we, I'm so pleased that your address is going to be published because I feel that it's something we shall want to have and to take back to our organisations. So would anyone like to ask a question of Chris?... Would you like to say who you represent please. [speaker006:] My name's Carolyn and I'm for Director for a group exploring parenthood. I suppose my first experience is one of immense frustration, because I think this is very important document that you bring to us, but the speed and the sound being, the loud sound of delivery made it very difficult to stay with the, the concept and ideas. So I would first urge that we get that paper out to us as soon as possible. [speaker008:] Thank you, Chris would you like to comment. [speaker007:] Yes, first of all er, is this, this is er, on. I'm, I'm sorry if it was to difficult to, to follow, either because of the microphones or [speaker006:] It was so loud [speaker008:] Was it, I am sorry. Erm, also I, I wanted to try and cover the main points and it's very difficult with a subject like that to, to only give you part of the, the story otherwise people would immediately say, well, yes, but you haven't thought about this or that. I'm quite sure you'll still say that, but erm, because it is er, it's in a sense, it's complex. I, I think to erm, very briefly to answer your point, erm, I believe that the, the quotes contract culture which is around at the moment, has missed out a major component which is concerned with community development and community enhancement. Erm, and I, I, I think that's very, very important. There's this tendency to suggest that there are these providers out there, that will provide. That health authorities and local authorities can simply tender and contract with the people there, and they're not there. Or if they are there, they're existing voluntary organisations which may be already very loaded, who've got a lot of work to do, to get into a negotiating framework and so on, so the first the thing I'd say in answer to you is that, N C V O and other must put a tremendous pressure on government and local authorities to fund the community development aspect of the pluralistic society which er, the current government seems to want. Erm, secondly, we will only be able to do that effectively and this is the point you were making about say, erm, school governors and so on, if people really feel they do have some genuine power, locally, it must be about enabling and empowering local groups to have power and take part within their community. Because so many of the people who, so many people at the moment feel I think that they, they have very little real influence, and that's why people don't turn up, it's why people don't vote for local government. Erm, and what I'm interested in is how we can through local democratic channels create true empowerment of the community. A community which is then in a position to provide care and support within the community properly funded by local government, so it becomes a symbiosis. But it does require that the local er, er, organisations feel genuinely empowered, and that's a major challenge for local government. Thank you very much, I'm sure there's a debate within that, that we can all continue, and I hope we will continue because it's so important. Er, Ray, Sir Ray. [speaker009:] Whenever I hear Chris I'm illumined for three quarters of the time, and dazzled for the other quarter. Erm, could I take a couple of points. Erm, first the unimportant one is semantic. The problem about the word communitarianism is that the French have pinched it. It means being a good member of the community in Europe, so I don't think that horse is going to run. But if what it means is to combine a sense of community, a sense of society, a sense of inter-dependent provision and collaboration in doing it and in providing true welfare con, consumerism, the government have chosen the word partnership. Now I think it's in Alice in Wonderland, that it is said that words mean what I intend them to mean. Can't we build on the word partnership and make it mean what you want. I think it's the nearest we'll get to it, and it's in the White Paper and it can be used in exactly the sense that I gather you would like it to be used, in the discussions we have on the results of the scrutiny, and that would be the starting point there. The second point is being totally in favour of you're selling your book. Do you in it go a little further in exploring the criteria which should govern who does what? Starting one supposes with who does what best, to get away from the sense of the government imposing a ratchet, on expenditure. That's perhaps enough. [speaker007:] Yes, thank you. Erm,... Two points, the, the first on partnership. I, I don't believe, I don't want to impose a particular word, and if communitarianism is a difficulty then I, I accept that. Er, it was the best word that I felt I could use at this time, it may be that a, if a debate ensues from this, or from er, other er, writings about, of myself and other people over this next few months, that a term will emerge that people feel happy with, but certainly we are talking about community partnership. We are talking about erm, enabling and empowerment and the enhancement of community, and I think those are the terms which really matter. How, erm, er, and, and I think as you're saying what word we put round that, almost doesn't matter as long as it's understood to mean that, erm, that, that range of, of concepts and requirements. In relation to your second question about criteria, er, I do say something about that, I do try to erm, tease that out to some extent, but it is of course, a difficult one. Erm, in many ways, one could say that the community or community organisations, local organisations are capable of running most things, erm, indeed they did at once, and some of those functions were taken over by the central or local state. If we go back forty, forty five years social work, erm, housing was all provided by voluntary agencies or private agencies, and not necessarily by the state. Erm, and so, but we do need to do that, and I believe the work that you have been doing erm, I don't know when that's to be published, er, but will I'm sure assist us in developing the criteria which will help voluntary organisations to decide what they properly should be doing. I think perhaps the most important thing is that voluntary agencies should do what they believe is right, and not allow their own objectives to be distorted, simply because a, of particular flavours, which is why I'm saying let us grab the agenda and write the agenda, rather than have the agenda set for us by other people. Thank you. [speaker008:] Thank you very much. I think er, we just have er, time for one very brief question if you would please. I think,... yes. [speaker010:] Mervyn, representing Help the Aged, or at least representing myself in responding to Chris Heginbotham's address, but er, here for Help the Aged today. Can I identify with the objective of communitarianism, can I also share your concept that the voluntary sector is the locus within which that sort of discussion should be and can be taking place. But can I suggest it's probably a lot more difficult to get there than you were describing even with the various points that you were raising in your address this morning, because I wonder if it is fair for all of us, to accept the immediate linkage between the voluntary sector whatever we actually mean by that, and good community institutions, community thinking, community awareness. It seems to me that an awful lot of the voluntary sector does come from very much the individualist side of the equation which you were laying out in front of us Chris. You probably remember, erm, a stimulating little book published last year by Frank on the Impulse to Philanthropy, where certainly in his nineteenth century analysis of the growth of philanthropy, he saw to main things, evangelicalism, which er, meant that people were going out looking for converts, and therefore doing good social work on the way, and the growth of the women's movement, in the sense that women otherwise unemployed were looking for a new area of activity to get into. Both of those strands are very much part of volunteering, they're very much linked with the concept of the active citizen, and there are still lots of voluntary organisations that form and which continue, and which are existing today, which stem entirely from people's desire to go out there and do something, in their own way. So that is a very individual strand. Another strand of our present voluntary sector are the self-help groups which of course are also going to be extremely individual, and one third point, Madam Chairman, the development of not for profit companies and things like that could also have a very individual strand to them as well since they sound a little bit like our existing small business sector under a community name. Thank you. [speaker008:] I don't think I'd quite greet that as brief question, but thank you to your contribution to the discussion. Chris would you like to respond quite briefly. [speaker007:] Yes, I can probably give you a brief answer, because er, in that you've raised a whole host of other things, erm, which erm, er, we need to, we need to think about and, and debate, and I hope we'll have further occasions to do so. Er, I just the main point. I do think there are problems and difficulties, I don't think it will be easy, not least because we don't have a shared morality and a shared consensus, on the objectives for the voluntary sector, but it is a set of concerns which we must address, er, and I believe that if, if I've done nothing else today, I've kicked off a debate, or I've contributed to a debate which was already rolling, erm, and that we must address those difficulties, and try and find ways through them, because there are opportunities as well as threats in the current situation and I believe we have to look at all of those er, so that we can move into the nineteen nineties which I believe will be a very exciting period for the voluntary sector, and one which the voluntary sector should er, see as exciting, grab the opportunities and move forward. [speaker008:] Thank you very much Chris. I think erm, the address we have just heard is a most valuable contribution to the series of the Sir George lectures, and I'm delighted that you were available and you were willing to do this. I think all the many ideas which have been proposed, the, the challenging thoughts, they will make a most enormous contribution to the discussions which we all will be having, and I think, not only ourselves in the voluntary sector, but those elsewhere also. Because as you so rightly say, we are part of that partnership of that er, movement forward, but there are other partners too, and we want to take them forward with us. So thank you very much indeed for your contribution, I think we've all found this a most interesting finish to the A G M of the N C V O. [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker008:] Are there any announcements about lunch and things like that? No Oh,lu, lunch is served outs, outside, and erm, you all have had details of your special interest meetings, both the time and location, please make sure you check those on the notice board outside. Thank you.

[speaker001:] Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I think it's slightly after the witching hour, so that I think we should begin. May I first welcome you all here. It's very good to see you, and er, I hope the day will be fruitful for all of us. Can I begin by making er er couple of apologies. Our Chairman. Geoffrey is recuperating from er er an operation on his back, and Barbara, although not here this morning, hopefully may well be here this afternoon, but she's been incapacitated by a fall which er, broke her leg. And I'm sure that er, you would wish me, er, hope they both get well very soon, as I say, Barbara hopefully will be here er, this afternoon. Erm, it's been an important year for us, and I think that, you may recall that last year we talked a bit about the Nathan report, and er, if you look at the Directors er, report, you will see that quite a lot of the work that we talked about and was in the Nathan report, is now under way, and I think it's very important. Er, our importance has er, frankly now been recognised by the Prime Minister, who talked about the voluntary organisations not very long ago and referred to us as cement, which holds society together, and I think if that's right, and hopefully, the government may take a bit more notice of us. Erm, because of the Nathan reports, I mentioned to you last year, we're going to have to raise more money than we thought sometime ago. And, I'd like to say that er, Diana er er, has been extremely helpful, and I've given her a bit of he aid, in trying to raise that kind of money. As you know our er Director left er, in the middle of the year. Usha, and er I'd like, on your behalf, to thank you for all she did, and to wish her well in whatever else she decides to do. Er, we have in her place, Judy, whose sitting here and I know that every official, and I hope yourselves, will give her all the support that she will need in this job and to say to her, your very welcome, and I know we're going to enjoy having you with us. Erm, may I just say, that you may recall, that at the nineteen eighty-eight A G M, we agreed that they'd be no smoking here, er, and I hope that er er, can be adhered to, er, and finally er, I have a fairly full agenda, and the officials have have sort of er, measured it to the nearest minute. Why allowed three minutes for, but I might extend that to three and a quarter, I think, if the time goes well. Well now, you've had the Minutes of the last A G M meeting, that blue copy, and may I take it that er you accept those, and we can agree that they are accepted. Thank you very much, that's very helpful to me. Thank you. Now we come to resolution one, which is the Annual Report, the Accounts, and the Auditors, and although Geoffrey is not here, er, we've done a video of him, which is now about to be shown, who will introduce er this, and I just like to say, that this has been sponsor the cost of it has been sponsored by the Shell International Petroleum Company, to whom we are very grateful... if my head pops up and obscures some of the... shout down, will you [playing the video] may I add my own very warm welcome to The absence of one ordinary officer at the Annual General Meeting may appear a misfortune, of two carelessness, but may I assure you, that we are with you in spirit, that the loss is ours alone, and that the proceedings will be conducted with their usual expedition and efficiency, despite, and I hope no one said before our absence from. The year has been one of change, of achievement, and of challenge. We have seen... most notably in left us to be succeeded by. For the clarity of in dealing with the a particular contribution has laid in developing the relationship between the sector and Government And as for the ensuing year, and that they be paid for the services, a sum to be determined by the N C V O Executive Committee. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. I can now ask er Geoffrey to second the motion, please. [speaker002:] Good morning, erm, do I need to switch something on, oh, it's working now. Good morning, I must say, I I stand before you today somewhat nervous, because erm, this is, this is my first to you as Treasurer, but this will be a slightly different speech from one's that I have given in previous years. Treasurers suffer the erm, the occupational hazard that they always, to some extent, have to cry wolf. They have to advise caution in the use of finance. They have to judge quite carefully the extent to which they should er, advise the caution, because if they advise too much caution, then erm, er people will er, restrain themselves and then perhaps if things aren't really bad, no longer believe the Treasurer. If they too much caution, then erm, if they advise too little caution, then then things can run away with themselves. So in the past few years, I have given a speech which has has drawn attention to the the deficit on our General Fund and our need for continued care, to reduce the deficit. Erm, some years ago, the Executive Committee set us the target of reducing our deficit to nil, and reducing the deficit to nil by the year ninety-one, ninety-two. I have to say, that the the year wo I that I'm reporting on now, nineteen ninety, ninety-one was actually better than we had originally planned and expected, and in fact, that we did eliminate the deficit in that year. If you look at the accounts, you will see that they record a deficit on the general fund of a hundred and twenty-three thousand, but if you deal, if you delve more carefully in the accounts, more closely, you will find, in fact, that the the money we raised on the appeal fund was greater than that deficit shown on the general fund, and so in fact, our income during the year, was greater than our expenditure, and we have achieved a small surplus. It was achieved, erm, through... reorganisation, it was achieved through careful planning of expenditure, but there was also an element of of luck in that erm, the staff vacancy level that we had pending the reorganisation, was was higher than we had had planned for. But nevertheless, I think it is a substantial achievement, er and it reflects well on on our former Director and it reflects well on our staff, that it has been made. Th there are also now, prospects for a modest surplus in the current financial year, and our projections show that zero deficit is achievable in the the future years, with a continued drive for care in expenditure and for the rising of income. But I I would slip back to my normal gloomy cautious self, and say that we do need to balance the years of deficit we have had, with years of surplus, we need to look at N C V O's finances over a longer term, than simply one year. We need to take the deficit years, with the surplus years, and so, simply because we have a surplus, it doesn't mean to say we can go out and start spending. We do need to continue to control our expenditure and to be careful about raising income and where appropriate charging for services. One area where the accounts do show some growth, though, is in special projects. There there was a very substantial increase in ninet ninety ninety-one, and I'm happy to say that, all but two of those projects have been fully funded by sponsors, and in fact, our policy now, and this is operated from the the first of April this year, is that all projects shall be fully funded by sponsors, and that includes a contribution to the overheads that erm, the projects incur. The market value of our investments rose to er, two point one million. There have been drawings on those investments, though, mainly, the the the main two have been to fund the redundancies associated with the reorganisation, and to grant a dowry to N A C V S, on its independence from the Council. Our investments now, all match er, the ethical investment policy which has been agreed by the Investment Panel. I would, by the way, like to thank the members of, of the Investment Panel, for the help and support they've given me, and also, in fact, to point out that erm, although s er, your your Chairman has spoken of Sir Ray severing his formal links with the Council, I have to say that we still do have one or two claws still attached to him, in that he remains on, as a very valued member of the Investment Panel, and will continue to provide his wisdom and advice, for which we are all very grateful. The progress towards our erm, compliance with our ethical investment policy though, has been achieved while considering the need to secure the best returns possible on our investment, and we have done it through a series of progressive sales of investments at the appropriate times according to the market conditions, and so I'm happy to say that we have been able to achieve both our responsibilities as trustees, our responsibility both to secure the best return on investment and, to to consider wider policy implications of our investment policy. I think I should point out, though, that erm, in the future, there will, we are planning some substantial drawings on our funds. Erm, firstly for office automation, to improve the effectiveness with which our staff can operate, and secondly, for the office accommodation itself. I think members will probably by now, be aware that a decision has been taken to leave the offices in Bedford Square where we have been for so many years. I don't think anyone will dispute that those are not offices suited to us in the nineties. There not offices best calculated to enable us to perform effectively. We have identified a new property which we can move to, and it is available to us, either to rent or to buy. Two years ago, when the prospect of moving was first raised, erm, I was very firmly of the opinion that we should continue to rent our offices, because I didn't believe that erm, we were a property speculation company. I believe that we are the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, in a very different business. I have to say though, that market conditions have changed very substantially in the last couple of years, and we now have an opportunity before us, which is one which is unlikely to recur again. We need to move, at the same time that the property market is in a substantial slump, and th are therefore offices available to us at a very very competitive price. And in fact, if we are able to negotiate a loan, to buy the new premises, we should be able to do so on terms which would enable our repayment of the loan to be comparable with what we are currently paying,an and would expect to pay in rent. So I hope, very much, that erm, at the end of the current financial year, I shall be able to give a even more optimistic erm, report, that not only have we brought the current account deficit under control, but that in fact, the organisation is in a much healthier financial position for the long term. And er, I think, I wo I would wish to extend my thanks to all the finance staff, er, particularly Ann in helping us to arrive at this position. So, in summing up then, I I feel slightly nervous that it is a different speech from the one I normally give, but I am confident, that we are now able to go forward, much more optimistically, based on a much stronger financial position. And I therefore second the the resolution one, for the adoption of the accounts. [President:] Well, thank you very much er, Geoffrey, erm that was a very full, and I think er, and as he says, cautious account of what's been happening, and he does remind me of all the finance officers that I've ever known, in this thing, I've never really seen, or rarely seen them smile. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [President:] Er, which is probably a good thing. The ones that smile, incidentally, usually go the bankruptcy court, so I think we're in good shape here. Now, as I say, it's been a fairly full account, but just before I put er, er, the motion to you, are there any points, or questions you'd like to raise... No, well, thank you very much. Er, we've read the resolution out to you, er, er, it's been appropriately proposed and seconded. May I ask, all those in favour, please, to show their hands... those against. The resolution is carried. Thank you very much. Now we now come to resolution two, which is in effect the appointment of the, er Honorary Officers. I think you've all seen who they are, and, I don't propose to read those,un unless you think I should, but they're there, I think, on the er, papers that you've er received. So, may I ask, erm, er, where are we, I keep forgetting [speaker001:] Andrea [President:] Oh yes, Andrea that's right. May I ask Andrea to er proposed the motion, please. [speaker001:] Thank you, I shall do nothing further than read out erm, a list of all the officers who erm, President Vice President, the Right Honourable Dr Leslie Mr Peter, the Honourable Kenneth and Vice President Alan. Chairman, Vice Chair Honorary Treasurer I'm sure all of us, who are involved in the Executive Council of N C V O will recognised that [President:] Thank you very much Andrea. Er, now may I ask Mr Graham to second that motion, please. [speaker001:] It would probably to appropriate for me to er second the motion in Welsh er, but as you're and neither the English Welsh I would just like to say a few things, one, to express the appreciation of my council for the and secondly, to [President:] Well, thank you very much. Er, well the names have been read out to you. And the motion is in effect to elect or to re-elect them. May I have all those in favour, please to show their hands. Thank you. Those against. The motion is carried. Now, we now come to er, the resolution, to er, [speaker001:] Three. [President:] it's resolution er three, and it is to er er, in effect to er, er appoint the the Executive Committee, and I don't propose to read through all those, er er, but perhaps Tony can help me. Erm, all I need to say about these, I think, is that, where the statement er to be announced is, we'll give you the names. The only thing we can't do, is under Community Organisation Eight, to give you the name of the representative of organisation development. We haven't yet got that, but we will give it to you in due course. Er, we've got, well, [speaker001:] The two under N A C V S, erm, Chair, are Christine and. Unfortunately we also now that Tim can't erm, fulfil the responsibilities in the planning and environment electoral college and Robert will take his place. [President:] Thank you very much. Er, can I ask now, er Mr Leslie to propose the resolution, please. [speaker001:] Sorry, Chairman, I [LAUGHTER] [President:] I er, I do beg your pardon. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mr Chairman, in his er, video to us, er drew attention to the, both the external and internal challenges which face us at the present time. It is essential that we should maintain both our sensitivity and our effectiveness, if we are to protect and watch over the interests of the people we work for and provide the kind of services they need. I think, therefore we are extremely fortunate, that so many people of distinction and talent are willing to give up time to serve on the Executive of the N C V O to work with the honourary officers and the Director and her team, to ensure that N C V O maintain such a central role in watching over our interests and in promoting the concerns of the people of this country, that we are all so active about. I would just like to say, record our thanks to those who are retiring, and to welcome most warmly those who have come forward to serve and to propose the list, er, last, but certainly not least, our warmest thanks to Bronwyn and her colleagues in the voluntary services unit, for their ongoing and invaluable support to N C V O er, throughout the years. Er, I have pleasure in proposing resolution three, I think you have absolved me, Chairman, from reading out all the names. [President:] Of course, thank you very much. Er, I must apologise again for what, er the way I addressed you, but of course with all these women equality er, movements going on, I never know whether its Mr, Mrs, or Ms. Erm, now I may call on Doctor Manchago to second the motion, please. We thought he might not quite make it in time. May I have a seconder, please, from the, er, audience for this. Now don't be shy. Thank you. What is, give us your name, please. Thank you. Thank you very much, indeed. Well, you've got the list of names and er, I think Mrs was quite right in asking not to read them all out. But er, we'd we obviously like your agreement to er to this very important er resolution. May I have a show of hands, from all those in favour, please. Thank you, anyone against. Well, thank you very much indeed, er, the resolution is er, carried. Erm, we're coming as it were to the end of the first part of the proceedings, er, but, I'd like to give a brief thanks to the er, C R group, that's the Charities Recruitment Group, for the part sponsorship of this A G M Conference. They gave us a thousand pound, that is really very important, I think, and we're most grateful. Erm, and that really is the end of, as it were, I beg your pardon, yes. [speaker001:] Before you end, a few minutes, er, Mr President, I wonder if I can just say, er, that you may remember, this really is a matter arising, but you may remember that, at the last meeting, of, of, the Annual General Meeting of N C V O, er, my organisation, the National Federation of Community Organisations was was bold enough to propose a resolution other than, than those required, and it is in your Minutes, if you have them. I really just wanted to to record our appreciation erm, and I think those of others too. Er, for, for, what N C V O has done in the year. I'm not saying necessarily in response to that resolution, but at least in the direction that we were hoping. the resolution was about encouraging N C V O to give er,ad adequate and appropriate support and weight to the needs of small organisations, as well as the needs of larger charities and voluntary organisations. And it is our experience in a number of ways, that N C V O has over this last year, done that very thing, and I wanted just to record that, and I'm thinking particularly, but there are other examples, of the work on the charities bill, er, and the work that N C V O's doing in relation to the Windsor Group. Erm, and also er, the involv the work involving the training trustees working party. I'm sure there are other other examples, but I just really wanted to record that appreciation. [President:] Well thank you very much indeed, we er, appreciate that, and I'm sure the staff will appreciate it, thank you. Well, as I say, er the this part of the meeting is now formally ended, and I'm going to hand over to er Kay who will Chair the next session, er er which involves of course, as you've seen, presentations by the N C V O senior staff. Ca can I just say one thing, though, if you me nip out, it's not that I don't want to listen to this, er, it's in connection with the property er worries that er, Geoffrey said, I've got to sign a lot of er, arm twisting letters, which I, they want me to sign today, so if I can take five minutes out to sign those, I hope you will not feel I'm trying to er skive off, as it were. Sue... [speaker001:] [whispering] Thank you, []... Thank you. You may now begin. I may now begin, good. My sex is determined. Well, good morning again, and welcome ladies and gentlemen, members of Council, colleagues and friends. We now come to the second part of our programme, according to our agenda, which has the broad heading,Achiev N C V O Achievements and Intentions, and it's obviously a natural follow-on from the I er, A G M which we have just completed, at which council received the annual report of N C V O's work for the past year, and its use of the resources which are available to it to carry out that work. We now, I think er, going to hear from members of the Management Team, more detailed information on working progress and priority issues. Judy our new Director will lead her team, of Simon, Richard and To and er Tony and I think it seems particularly er, appropriate and important that Judy at her first appearance here as Director, although many of us present, I know, would remember her wearing other hats, should have this opportunity of speaking the Councillor members and giving us some idea of how the Management Team see the future before us in the years to come. Judy, you lead. [Judy:] Thank you very much. This is an exceedingly exciting time to be joining N C V O. I took over from at the beginning of September, nineteen ninety-one, with the reorganisation, thankfully fully, in place, and a clear strategic plan to fulfil our role as the voice of the voluntary sector. That's quite a daunting task. My job is to implement our mission, to promote a thriving and effective voluntary sector. By providing leadership, representation and support. In a nutshell, I see N C V O as something like, perhaps, the C B I of the voluntary sector. Well, we're here in this building, perhaps we have some differences, of course, we can't quite match the C B Is resources, but who knows. Through our membership we represent an enormous range of voluntary sector interests, and as you can see, from our electoral college headings, such as Education and Training, Employment and Leisure, Ethnic Minorities, Health and Disability, Income Maintenance and Poverty, Personal Family Services, Planning an Environment, women, you, professional learners society, public bodies trusts and foundations, my goodness what a list. What a diversity. It is gratifying to see the newly independent off-shoots of N C V O join the ranks of members, such as the national association, the council for voluntary services, the organisation development unit, and the black environment network. And also our most recent émigré, the WasteWatch, who are about to do so this year. N C V O has a proud record over the years, of developing and promoting new initiatives, to meet new needs, and to fill gaps in voluntary sector initiatives. Many of those which we have helped into independence are now household names, such as, Age Concern, National Association of Citizens' Advice Bureaux. However, the ranks are much more numerous as you can see. All are playing important parts in the voluntary sector. As I now personally from one of my previous lives in nineteen eighty-two, when I became the first Director of the newly independent National Federation of Community Organisations. Erm, but I didn't prime the previous speaker who spoke so nicely er, about N C V O even though we do seem to be in a mutual admiration society. N C V O will carry on with this vital role, and enriching and enlarging the dynamics of the voluntary sector. N C V O works in partnership with many other organisations. In the voluntary, commercial and statutory sectors. To achieve our goals, and of course, we work closely with our sister councils in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, and we put domestic issues in the wider European and International scene as well. Over the coming years, I want to see us widen and extend our membership and our networking incorporation with other charities even further. We need to improve the ways in which you are involved in N C V O's work, thus giving legitimacy to voice, and empowering N C V O and our members in the causes that we all care about. We care about the voluntary sectors independence, its innovation, its flexibility and its responsiveness to the needs of those without financial power. The manifesto which N C V O produced recently, articulate many of our concerns, and presses the Government and other political practi other political parties to make improvements to respond to your concerns. I have found an excellent team of people who are highly committed and motivated and who work for N C V O as honorary officers, of staff, as members of all the various committees and working groups, task forces, er, and think tanks, and any other name that we can think up to involve you. I am very proud to have this opportunity to work with all of you, to promote the uniqueness of the voluntary sector. Some areas of our work will be discussed in much greater detail in the seminars this afternoon. On charity and politics, on Europe, on communications, and on trustee training. These represent some of the major issues currently on our agenda. We believe that N C V O has a key role to play in involving the voluntary sector in representing your concerns. Some of the work we do supporting the voluntary sector and providing services will also be reflected in the stores and displays that we're making available over the lunch period. They cover our oral work, our advice services, our membership and affiliation services, and our publications. Now I am delighted to be able to hand over the spot-light to my three management colleagues on the management team. Tony in charge of services and communication, Simon in charge of policy and development, Richard in charge of resource development, and although it's not on the script and she said I mustn't to the script, I ought to mention also Samantha who has joined us as head of communications on whom, you may thank for all the sort of visuals that we're having, and the bright idea of videoing er, our Chairman. So I I look forward to her input as well to our image and our presentation. Thank you very much. [applause] [Samantha:] Thank you very much Judy. We'll go straight through the presentations, and then there is an opportunity, obviously for you to ask questions or, and to join in generally discussion. So if I go straight over and invite Simon to address us next, please. [speaker001:] It's great. Super. [Simon:] Morning. It is clear that er, one of N C V O principle functions is to act as the voice of the voluntary sector. Representing the interests and reflecting the concerns of voluntary organisations and charities throughout England. Of course, this does not mean that we're the only voice speaking up on behalf of the voluntary sector. Many voluntary organisations including numbers of our members, many present here today, will be speaking forcefully in the interests of particular groups within society with which they work. But it undoubtedly does fall to N C V O and rightly so, to take the responsibility of representing the interests of the sector on a range of general issues. If N C V O is to be able to fulfil this purpose effectively, we must be working closely with our members, and we must have their confidence and respect, and such confidence, of course, is a two way process. N C V O needs to be sharing its knowledge, its information and general resources with its members, and also needs to ensure that its work is firmly grounded in the experience and knowledge of the plethora of voluntary organisations and charities, with which contact is maintained on a regular basis. Now it seems to me, that er, the watch-word for our policy development work over the next few years, must be effective co-ordination with our members and the wider voluntary sector. Our principle function within the policy development department within N C V O must be to work with, and not simply for our member and the wider sector. Other constituencies, of course, are important. Central Government, local authorities, the academic communities and so on, they are undoubtedly important, but they are subsidiary to the interest of the sector itself. N C V O must therefore, draw together voluntary organisations effectively and be seen to be responsive and creative. There are many issues where a N C V O should be exercising leadership, sometimes a rather difficult concept, and there is no need to apologise for that, for using leadership at the right time, but it has to be a leadership by consent, rather than claimed without authority, and it is in this context that the policy development department in N C V O exists, to help channel voluntary sector concerns to opinion formers, and policy makers, regardless of party politics, regardless of political commitment. And following N C V O recent reorganisation, the policy development department broadly consists of the following. I thought it was useful to repeat this for other peoples information. Firstly we have an economic policy team. Concentrating its attention on central and local government funding, of the voluntary sector itself. The implications of the efficiency scrutiny review, training and employment, and fiscal issues. Secondly, we have now a grandiosely named, social and public policy team, which is valiantly covering charity law, local government structural changes, the right of duty of voluntary organisations to campaign, work with the new national forum on the environment and health and community care issues. Thirdly, our policy analysis and research team, takes responsibility for looking further ahead, and doing a lot of the initial thinking about both the challenges and the opportunities that will affect the sector domestically and internationally over the next few years. Additionally, the department covers parliamentary lobbying work, our European and international responsibilities. It supports the national self-help support centre and the waste-watch project. We all know that we have yet again a busy and exciting year in front of us. The new year sees the publication of changing Europe. This book will help readers to understand the single European market, not an easy thing in itself, and how it may affect voluntary organisations and users. Undoubtedly, N C V O existing work relating to the European Community and the voluntary sector has become ever more important, year by year. Already much work has been done on the impact of the single market on voluntary organisations. The implications of the moves towards greater E C integration for the sector, encouraging the development of effective networks, of voluntary organisations across the community as a whole, and building relationships with all the institutions, of the European Community to ensure that the interests of the voluntary sector in the United Kingdom are both maintained and arguable enhanced. We often claim for instance, that this country has a particularly unique and distinctive voluntary sector which is not matched elsewhere. If this is so, we need to be positive and confident about our experiences, and we should try to export our best attributes to others in the community. We will no doubt find, and again rightly so, that we have as much to learn from others, as to give. The Prime Minister's recent speech at the Charities Aid Foundation Conference, indicates that the Government is going to make the encouragement of voluntary sector across the er, community and in encouragement of voluntary activity, a principle focus of the U K Presidency of the community from July next year. That will give us many important opportunities which we must not let drop. N C V O has taken the initiative in putting up a number of ideas to the Prime Minister's and the Home Office, to make this commitment a meaningful one, and a constructive one for voluntary organisations in this country. We are also embarking on vitally important work on the new charity law legislation which has been referred to already, on local government legislation, in relation to both the structure of local government and the new council tax system. And only yesterday, at N C V O's annual lobby conference on the implications of the Queen's speech, we were talking with a number of our members about legislative priorities for the period, up to the forthcoming General Election, whenever that is. Finally, I can't finish without mentioning health and community care. The publication of the Government's Green Paper, health of the nation and all the work going on around the country, on the implementation programme for the community care reforms, means that N C V O must attempt to rebuild its own capacity, to undertake effective policy development work in these areas. We continue to support and chair the community care alliance of voluntary organisations, a very important development, in the last few years. Our director serves on one of the official Department of Health's steering groups, dealing with health of the nation and its implementation. We're also very hopeful that we will have some extra support and assistance in this field at N C V O within the near future. Now these, of course, are just a few of the areas that the N C V O's policy development work is intending to cover and will be concentrating on, in the year ahead. If we're to do this work effectively, er, then it has to be in conjunction with you. Therefore I come back to where I started. Working in conjunction effectively with you, our members, and it has to meet your needs and interests as well as our own, and I'm therefore looking forward to the possibility, in fact, the certainty of us having a year of achievement us for the interests of the voluntary sector. Thank you. [applause] [speaker001:] Thank you very much, Simon. I now ask Richard to address, please. Thank you. Good morning. As well as addressing some of the major policy issues affecting the sector, N C V O also has an important role in helping voluntary organisations to do their job better. Voluntary organisations need practical advise on fund-raising, legal issues, accountancy, and many other aspects of their work. They also need to be able to manage their affairs effectively, and learn to develop constructive partnerships. It's the role of the resource development department, to ensure that they get the advise and help they need to do this, either from N C V O or from others. The department also has a specific interest in ensuring N C V O is sensitive to the needs of rural areas, and rural voluntary organisations. To help us develop a strategic approach to advise provision, we've embarked on a mapping exercise. This will involve a national survey early next year, funding by Thames Telethon and others, to establish where voluntary organisations currently get their advice from. What they think of current provision and what the main gaps are, both now and in the future, and the outcome will be a five year advice development strategy, which will be publishing to guide both N C V O and other providers and funders. One of the fastest growing interests in the voluntary sector is the environment. Yet most environmental groups are not currently plugged into existing sources of advice and do not have a tradition of working together. We therefore established a new three year environmental support project funded by the D O E and B P to address these concerns. Other important activities in our advice development team, include fund raising advice, increasing access to national vocational qualifications and running a short course programme which is the largest programme of its kind in the country. Advance in good management is the main theme of our management development team, as well as being the title of a new three year project we launched last year. Seven regional initiatives are now being funded with the help of the V S U, the Department of Trade and Industry, and a number of private sector funders, including British Telecom, Save and Prosper, B P and I B M. The lessons from these projects and others will be widely promoted. Earlier this year, we also established a joint working party with the charity commission on trustee training. With Winifred as Chair, and Diane as Vice Chair, the working party has received evidence from over fifty people, as well as conducting its own survey of trustees and management committees, with a tighter framework of regulation resulting from the charity bill, it will be more important than ever, that trustees are aware of their very considerable responsibilities, and well equipped to take them on. The working party will be publishing its report next April. Voluntary organisations need to work more and more in partnership with others. For their part, other sectors like local government, health authorities, civil servants, private companies and other agencies, also need advice on how to work with the voluntary sector. We already run the N C V O corporate affiliation scheme, which next year we plan to expand and develop, and we've just launched L A Link, a new subscription service for local authorities, providing advice and information on the development of partnership, and there's an exhibition about this in the concourse. Contracting is a particular form of relationship between the public and voluntary sectors, which is causing considerable concern amongst voluntary organisations. Recognising the importance of this issue, we've been able to develop a three year project, to provide training, advice, and information to voluntary groups, about how best to respond to the contract culture. This has been generously supported by the Department of Health, the Nuffield Foundation, Bearing Trust, Allied Dunbar... and will be launching that early next year. Finally, the rural team in the Resource Development Department plays a vital role in ensuring all N C V O's work takes on board the rural dimension. Through promoting rural voluntary action and developing community care in rural areas, the rural team never let us forget that over twenty per cent of the population live in rural areas. This will be my last N C V O, A G M as a member of staff since I'm leaving at the end of January, to become Chief Executive of Arthritis Care. However, I'm very much looking forward to being a member of N C V O as well as being a consumer of its excellent services, and while I've got the the platform, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Judy every success as Director of N C V O. I think she's got off to a marvellous start, and I'm sure that N C V O's gonna flourish under her leadership. Thank you. [applause] Thank you very much Richard. I shall resist the temptation to say all sorts of nice things about you at this point, because there would be other opportunities obviously. I'll ask Tony now to address us, please. take my watch madam Chairman, Oh, yes. [LAUGHTER] Thank you, Kay. Good morning, everyone. It's perhaps fitting that the Services and Communication Department should bring up the rear in this group of presentations, because one of its key priorities is to provide a coherent professional support service to the organisation as a whole. This is reflected in in that of N C V O's three strategic objectives, which relates to improving its own operational effectiveness, and enhancing recognition of its role. Making sure N C V O's operation is fit for this task is a team of people who specialisms include, personnel, training, information and technology, communications, fund raising, finance, office management, and of course, the law. In looking back at the department's achievements, one has to accept that reorganisation which Judy and Simon have already referred to, has because of its sheer scale and impact on N C V O been something of an abiding preoccupation over the past twelve to eighteen months. The main work-load on programming, the implementation of change and steering through the necessary mass of procedures and consultation to successful conclusion has fallen to my department's team leaders, and in particular to Ruth in Personnel and training. In parallel with this, Ann has overseen the establishment of entirely new team budgeting processes, and Tracy has made sure that staff affected by chance have appropriate space and office facilities to do their jobs. It will be wrong however, to conclude that the department's role is entirely directed inwards towards N C V O effectiveness, vital though that is. Many members will be aware that the professional advice on which N C V O depends is also available to them, and other organisations, particularly in the areas of legal work, personnel, finance and office technology, we find there is a high demand for advice which we intend to continue to satisfy in the years ahead. As Richard has said earlier, this is an area on which strategic work will be undertaken in the next couple of years or so. A Business As Usual approach has also been maintained by N C V O Information and Technology team, under Joan. Despite the challenge a reshaping information services to meet the needs of the new teams, and outside users as well as developing a strategy for the completely overhaul of our office technology requirements. The implementation programme for which has now begun. I suppose one of the most fundamental changes brought about by reorganisation, though, was the creation of a team, which for the first time, consolidated into one management structure. All functions relating to enquiries, publicity, press, media, production, publishing and fund raising. Considerable work has been initiated through the medium of a communication strategy, and we're delighted that the loss of Amanda er, many of of you will know Amanda and will know where she's gone to. This, she left at a critical time. That's now been placed in proper context by the arrival of Samantha as Head of Communications, as Judy said earlier on, we're already beginning to enjoy the fruits of her skills, in the presentation surely you're seeing today. Looking more to the future now, again as Judy and other colleagues have implied, N C V O places high priority on increasing membership, supported by effective communications. Service development, and policy involvement. The Services and Communication Department looks forward to playing an important part in this, perhaps starting with the communications seminar this afternoon. Given alternative attractions this afternoon, though, we shall make sure this is not the only opportunity for members to contribute to the debate. Finally, you'll want to know the significance of the photograph behind me. The avid readers of the N C V O News will have spotted reference to the fact that we shall be moving offices from next June, and of course, the Treasurer had a fair bit to say about this earlier on. What you're looking at is a representation of a purpose built office of some twenty one thousand square feet, near King's Cross. It's currently nearing completion. I'm delighted now, to be able to inform members that terms have been agreed and the property's formally under offer and off the market. As many of you will know, from first hand experience, there are few things which have a greater impact on morale and productivity, than the working environment and associated facilities. We now have the challenge of a marvellous opportunity for the physical re-establishment of N C V O for years to come, in premises which will fully meet the needs both of its staff, and the wide range of visitors it attracts. One could quite probably say on this occasion. Watch this space. Thank you. [applause] Thank you very much, Tony. What a marvellously exciting point at which to leave us, as it were. We've now had, I think this very ex exciting very interesting wonderfully co-ordinated erm, overview, of the issues of the work done in the different areas. It's now over to you, this is your opportunity. Ask questions, make comments to enter into the discussion. If you would very kindly state your name and your organisation just for the record. Whose going to be the first. Is this a, is this a good feature to include on this day, while you're thinking about it. Is this a good idea, to have this kind of er, presentation to bring you up to date. Good. Well t well let's have. [LAUGHTER] I'm gi I'm giving them time to think, you see. There's someone there. Ar, please. I just been in loads of workshops Leslie. this afternoon, but we won't all be in that workshop, sorry, just to have, perhaps Samantha, if you'd just say what of the new communications strategy, I think members ourselves, but in a sense it would be very useful to know what the others, perhaps we could take some of it back with us. Erm, thank you, Leslie. Erm, I understand that Samantha is actually outside at the moment waiting to meet Sir Leonard So er would... I was only telling Tony Er, could we just er wait,sh he should be arriving in just five minutes, if we could come back to that a a later, could we? Perhaps I can say, that what I'd like to see is N C V O be much more corporate in the way it approaches things, erm, many of you will have seen many of our publications, but, you may not always realise they come from N C V O, sometimes it's not always easy to see that, you have to search through and, not always find it, and we've got many different images, so I think it's important we er get a whole corporate image across. But it's also important that we get our message across more effectively, and in that, that we're reflecting your views more effectively. So I think the communications department wanted to pull together all of these issues, and make sure that we hear your voice effectively, we represent it effectively and that, the sense in which N C V O comes over as an organisation is more appropriately presented and projected in all the many different spheres in which we're currently operating. I don't know if that meets, meets your point. Th erm, there's at at the back, please. Er, Mick counselling er, and it follows directly from what was said, erm, Judy has referred in her talk about the importance of communications with members, and I'm delighted to note, that erm, the Health and Disability Group, is to have a meeting in January to look at a variety of issues including the health work of N C V O. This is the first meeting for I think, two years, and if it new era in communications, I for one am delighted. [Judy:] Thank you, perhaps I can comment on that. I'm keen to see a real dialogue with our members, er, how we achieve that I don't know, we've got the most enormous diversity of membership as I mentioned in my speech, but the more that we can get a a good dialogue going, and certainly I used to be a member of Health and erm, Disability Group, and remember that it was a very useful meeting point, er, as well as a good arena for developing policy initiatives. So I hope that we will find ways of creatingl, creatively involving all of you, and perhaps that would be a good start, I hope so, anyway. [speaker001:] Thank you very much Judy, er Simon or does any other member of the team. Do you wish to add to no, no. [speaker002:] Per perhaps I can just say one point. Sometimes we're concerned as to whether N C V O is competing with its membership about what we do, and I know that a point has been raised on that, er, by somebody who I think is present today. We don't see ourselves. I want to see N C V O as co-operating. If you, as our members are doing something well, our role is to support you. If you're doing something well, but there are other areas that need to be filled in, our role is to compliment you. If many of you are doing something well, but you need to be brought together, our role is to co-ordinate you, and if you're not doing something and it needs doing, then our role is to initiate it. But all the time it is working with you, and not in competition with you. [speaker001:] Thank you very much, erm, at the back, please. erm, I would certainly stand up and and and er share everyone's congratulations of what N C V O's done over the la past year, and certainly we've had an enormous amount of help, particularly from the rural. But, I have been a little concerned th th the the term, equal opportunities hasn't been mentioned once today, and I would like a reassurance that it's not because it's year's or the last decade's issue. I would like to know what N C V O currently is doing in a number of ways, about equal opportunities. Thank you. Right,may maybe I'll, I'll just start, and my colleagues can can add in, I'm hogging the platform as usual. Can I say that, when I was interviewed for the job of er, Director, or I was asked along with other applicants, to put forward a er paper presenting my issues and concerns, and I can say to you, equal opportunities was a key one there. So I hope there will be other developments going on. But certainly, equal opportunities as as a part of the integral working of N C V O and we do regularly review, how we, as an organisation, are meeting our equal opportunities requirements across the board, that's race, sex, disability, er,in involving the the staff who are at lower levels and so on. I do that there are some wider responsibilities, we need to keep reviewing what we're up to. Er, the organisation development unit was highly involved with the er, abilities and management development of er, black organisations. Now that they gone independent, we've got to again look and see what are our roles there. So it's a continually renewing effort, I believe, er, but I like to have the contribution of some of my colleagues, as to what they feel th the roles are. I think one of the reason why you haven't heard it mentioned specifically is because it is integral to a lot of the bits of work that we're doing. Just to to site some of the bits of work that I was talking about, erm, the Trustee Training Working Party, for example, er, in,ha has got on it, a representative from the black voluntary sector. We've looked particularly at some of the kinds of er, issues, that black and ethnic minority groups experience in that area. The mapping we are particularly targeting certain kinds of disadvantaged. The groups in our survey worked to make sure that we look at the needs, advice needs that they have, and that's brought out. The advancing good management project again, has prioritised certain kinds of disadvantage organisations, to ensure that they're getting funded, and that's also reflected in the representation on the Committee. So I think you can be assured that it's not something that's been put to one side, it's something that we're trying to build in to all the work we do, in whatever ways appropriate, but er, I accept that the the implications for your comment, that we've got to be continually, er watching ourselves, to make sure that we do that. Thank you, Richard. Simon Yes, I was going to to to add to that slightly, and to what Judy said, in in the sense that the implication, the question I think, is a correct one, that every organisation, and N C V O wouldn't be immune er, than from any other, have got to actually ensure that they keep this at the front of their agenda all the time. It's, it's quite right that it should be integrated in all our work programmes, rather than, it seems as necessarily a separatist erm, element or thing. But of course, the danger on the other side of the coin, if you simply rely on that, is that you actually begin to loose focus, or you begin to ignore it without meaning to, inadvertently. And I think it's both important for N C V O itself, to ensure that it's working on issues, equal opportunities issues that affect itself, and that it's helping the sector as a whole to do that, and and we're very conscious of that, and er, certainly just in the last few weeks, have been looking at how we can upgrade what we're doing in that sphere. Thank you. Can can I add to that, erm, Kay, by saying that, our concentration with within my department Mm. and personnel particularly, is on ensuring that N C V Os as an organisation is upholding the highest standards around equal opportunities, erm, our employment records are subject to regular monitoring, and we discuss, I mean, in a brain-storming way various issues that emerge from the figures that we get. So as an organisation we we're very much have an awareness of the need to be exemplary in that respect. Thank you. Angela and I was head of the International Department from nineteen forty-eight to nineteen seventy-two. Hello. I have be very interested to hear about the recent developments and most impressed at what's taken place, but er, I would like to ask about the international work, which I understand has been reduced. I feel, personally this is a pity now we're coming into Europe and er trying to be international, but I'm sure there was a very good reason for it, and I sh, I should like to know what it was. I'm sure they'll hasten to say, not reduced, just done in a different way, but shall I ask Yes. Thank you very much for that question, I think it is an important one, because we looked at our international work, as we did at all our work, over the period that we were considering reorganisation. And I genuinely would say, that I actually think the amount of international and European work going on within the organisation as a whole, is now greater than it was before. Erm, it's certainly true that we reduced the total size of a particular team or unit dealing with international affairs, but only on the grounds that we actually felt that it was very important that all the teams should be working on international and European dimensions of their work, rather than seeing it as compartmentalised in one area. Therefore, if I just looked at some of those policy teams that I referred to in my presentation, I would expect, and it's happening, that we would be taking on board, in each of those policy teams, the policy development work that's applicable to Europe. If we take just one example, the social and public policy team, has therefore policy responsibility for all the work, erm, from a policy point of view, er, about the legal structure that might exist in future, er, European associations that might be created, because it matches very clearly our work on charity law, domestically. So we're trying to unite the two things together. I think I can assure you, we've got a, an international European officer, who has the main responsibility for opening the doors for us in a lobbying way within Europe, and in addition to that, and the maintenance of the networks, we are spreading international and European responsibilities around the organisation, so it's seen again to be integral to our work, rather than compartmentalised, and I'm confident that the organisation as a whole, will therefore be doing more. Thank you, Simon,anybod any additions to that. No. Erm, I'd just like to reassure the conference, that there is actually a representative erm, from a environmental organisation, here today after Richard erm, comments, Head of Communications at Friends of the Earth, erm, and also to ask him, on what basis, erm, he made the comment that environmental organisation have a tradition of not working together. Erm, within Friends of the Earth, staff in the organisation, commonly liaise with their counter parts in other environment and development N G Os. Erm, we do work together, where we share a common agenda, and we find that we share common policy positions, and there are a lot discussions that go on about policy questions between environmental N G Os, erm, and also like any N G O that's pressed for time and money, we work together where actually it can be justified by the results. Erm, so really that's an enquiry, and also further explanation of the project that is being jointly funded by the D O E and B P. Thank you, Richard. Yes, I think my my comments, particularly directed at the regional and local level, where I think for quite understandable reasons, namely the very rapid development of new environmental organisations, er, in a lot of areas, er, we have found that the environmental groups have not er, initially been working together. I think that's changing very much. We've seen in a number of areas, the development of regional net environmental networks, which we have been directly involved in helping develop. And one part of the environmental project, is to try and ensure regional environmental networks develop in all parts of the country, rather just in those where they currently exist. The other part of the work is based on the experience, particularly of councils for voluntary service and other bodies like that, who at a local level are providing advice and support to voluntary groups. They found that their links with environmental groups are not very good, and also that environmental groups are often not very aware of the kinds of services that a council for voluntary service can provide them. So, the object of that part of the project is to try and address that issue, to try and make sure that N V Ss build up their links with environmental groups. That the services they provide are relevant to environmental groups, and in that way to to help environmental groups plug in to the kinds of advice on fund raising and er, management and all sorts of other aspects of running a voluntary organisation, which, at the moment, of, er a lot of, er social service organisations plug into, but so many environmental groups. So I I just thinks it's a, it's a feature of the rapid development of the environmental sector, that, for, as I say, for quite understandable reasons, some of those links, and networks, haven't been fully established, and our project which we see as a, as a short term one, essentially a three year bit of work, is going to address that, and it's been widely supported by er, a number of environmental groups. Thank you Richard. At the back, please. I'm Nigel I'm Chief Executive of the National Charity Community of Transport which is based in Manchester, and it's that last point which is really significant behind my question, and it concerns your new premises and, I'm... one it's a question as to what your planning to do, and secondly, a request if you're not, er, that you could provide within that some working space for people from out of town, to use when we're in London, complete with things like, you know, coin operated fax machines, because I find I spend quite a lot of time in London, you have meetings on successive days, you have time to kill, and there's no where sort of, comfortable to go and sit down and get on with some things. Thank you. Tony would you comment... I'm delighted to comment, though, subject to contract and everything else, I wouldn't give any any assurances. May I say, right at the start of the planning processes, and we'll we'll start with N C V O's immediate needs, but we're very aware of services that other organisation need from time to time, and it's very interesting to hear that as a, as a new example. Er, I will be fitting that in our own planning process. There is, erm, within London, in the next fours years or so, a major initiative that's being operated under under the erm, A C E N V O, Association of Chief Executives and National Voluntary Organisations which some of you will know about. A major er, development, somewhere around eighty to a hundred thousand square feet of resource space for organisations, and they will also, I think, be looking the sort of provision that you suggested. There's no harm, however, in us looking at that as an option within our own space. Thank you very much Tony. Possibly also worth mentioning er, B P's charity base, which I think, has been a very er good recent initiative, whereby there is office sharing accommodation available, er, and all those sort of services that you talked about, so er, there is already initiative, and I think that seems to be very successful. Thank you, the last question, I'm afraid now. At the back, please. My name's Alan from the Edinburgh Council Social Service to change its name in April, to the Council of Voluntary Organisations. I'd like first of all, bring greetings north of the border. I think I'm the only representative here, and apologies from the Director and the Chair of the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations. We had our annual meeting last week, and er, very successful it was too. I've operated er, various positions on the Celtic fringe, and I could've replied briefly to my colleague from Wales in Not in my haltering Welsh, I don't have any Gaelic I'm afraid. The point I would like to make is that while we're thinking of international relations, that we do bear in mind that United Kingdom is still a United Kingdom. We need to communicate with each other on a regularly basis over all the issues that have been raised. I think this is extremely important. I know it goes on. Some of us though, working at the ground, grass roots ma may not know that it goes on, and er, I would just like to take this opportunity of stressing how important it is to, that we communicate within the United Kingdom, and er, support Nigel's er, suggestion that it would be useful to have a base down here. He and I were at a lobby at the House of Commons yesterday, in er, celebration of the mobility allowance, which campaigned very successfully, and we, in the Community Transport field, have very close working relationships and communication. So there's an example of where it's happening and I hope it will happen over the whole field. Thank you. Th thank you very much, and I'm sure we send greetings equally north of the border. Sadly I think that our time has run out for this particular session, but I would remind you that the seminars this afternoon, erm, are, offer other opportunities to explore both some of the issues that have been raised er, through your questions now, and also others that you may wish to raise, er, with the members of staff, the leaders of the groups. I would, before passing on the next part of our programme, I would like to warmly thank Judy and Simon and Richard and Tony, not only for their presentations, their carefully thought out presentations to give us as broad a span as possible of how they see the priorities, what is happening at this time, but for everything else they do in leading their teams and initiating so many of the exchanges that take place, which adds so much, as has been said by, both by Judy and by other speakers, to carry N C V O forward. We are enormously fortunate as our Chairman said in his video presentation, erm, to have such devoted, loyal and committed staff, and I think you can see that in the quality of the work which comes out of N C V O and the way in which it it moves forward, always, sort of, going towards er er taking with it the members. So thank you very much indeed, and we now move on to, briefly to... [LAUGHTER] Earlier on our progr in our programme we received that Tony could not be with us today, but we are delighted to welcome in his place Sir Leonard I B M's Director of Personnel and Corporate Services. Sir Leonard has had a distinguished with I B M which included being seconded by I B M to the National Health Service Management Board, first as Director of Personnel and then as Chairman of the Board. He holds a number of directorships, is a member of learned institutes, an author, is a recipient of many awards and honours and hold many offices, including some as chairman in a wide range of organisations, including some in the voluntary sector and many concerned with education and training. The title of his address to us today, Voluntary Organisations and the Private Sector, is a subject of enormous interest to this audience, and it seems particularly appropriate with the wide and distinguished experience of our speaker. Sir Leonard. Well, thank you very much, Chair, for that splendid introduction, I'm sure my mother would recognise me from er, what you said. [LAUGHTER] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, can I just give you er, Tony apologies, er, unfortunately he has to be in Paris today, I know he'd prefer to be with you, but he has to be in Paris today, and since he's good at delegation, he's actually asked me to come along and and to talk to you. Erm, I suppose I... have one advantage, which is I know one or two people in the audience and I think I know a little bit about the nature of the audience, er, and you gathered why from er, the Chair's introduction. But er, that's a great advantage when compared with the newly appointed British Ambassador in Washington, who having just arrived in Washington, er picked up the telephone and heard a voice at the other end, say, what do you want for Christmas, it was just before Christmas, what do you want for Christmas, and he thought hastily and, didn't want to be impolite or too greedy, so he said a small box of crystallised fruit, and put the telephone down, and a few momen a few moments later he put on the radio, and the announcer said, we've just conducted our normal review of the Ambassadors' wishes for Christmas, er, the the Ambassadors in Washington. And the German Ambassador wants peace on earth and good will to all men, [LAUGHTER] and the French Ambassador wants the release of remaining hostages in Lebanon, and the British Ambassador wants a small box wants a small box of crystallised fruit. [LAUGHTER] So I have that advantage, that er, I do know a little bit about you. Erm, and I also understand that this is the first time you've actually had someone from the private sector, er, whose been invited to er, address your A G M so, I'd like to thank you for the privilege, and for also for the opportunity to speak on a subject which I personally er, find of of great interest. A politician once said. Er, ask a fellow to speak on something that interests him, and you're sure to get a more interesting speech. And, I'm about to test that. As the role of er, business in the community is well at the top of personal agenda, in my job as I B M Personnel Director and Director of Corporate Affairs, the Corporate Affairs bit, er, is the piece I'm going to be talking about. Erm, well I er, I hope that er, I can prove that politician right today. Let me straight away, er, that it might be folly of me to assume that er, you know a great deal about I B M. By the way I B M stands for International Business Machines, not as, some people used to think, International Ballistic Missiles. Erm, and I B M is is of course, very well known in the computer field. I B M, U K, which celebrates its fortieth anniversary this year, has some sixteen thousand employees based in some fifty two locations throughout the United Kingdom, and they're working on all aspects of information technology, er, from software to silicon, from telecommunications to personal systems, and of course we form part of a very large company, I B M Corporation, which employs around three hundred and seventy thousand people across the world. Now some of you here today might wonder, what a computer company has to do with the community. Er, you may, quite understandably, regard businessmen like myself, with some suspicion. How can people whose daily life involves this relentless pursuit of profit, possibly understand the motives of organisations like your own. Organisations dedicated to providing support, to minority groups, to the disabled, to the under privileged, to the under achievers, or people who simply don't have the means to get the advice and support which they need. Let me assure you straight away then, I see absolutely no conflict between having moral values and running a profit making business. Ethics do have a place in the boardroom, and our employees, er employees in I B M, would expect them to have that place. Companies are made up of hundred of individual citizens who may depend on the support services of the voluntary sector. For instance, in the case of marriage guidance, bereavement counselling, advice on debt and so on. They therefore expect the companies they work for to support the providers of those services, in some way, and they want to play their part too, in delivering those services, and I have quite a lot to say about that, later on. But today I want to address three themes, that revolve around relationships. First the relationship between public, private and voluntary sectors, which I do believe need to work more closely together. Secondly, the relationships between the private sector and the voluntary sector, and lastly how we measure the success of these special relationships. Well my view, and it's a view shared by many business leaders, is that for business to continue to be the wealth creator in our society, a healthy balanced community in which to operate is essential. The private sector therefore, need the support of an educated, employed and motivated community as much as the community needs the support of industry and commerce, and when I'm asked whether, in these harsh economic times, business can still afford to support the community. My reply is that we cannot afford not to do so. Increasin increasing, it's not just a question of support, it's a committed partnership, and as the boundaries between public, private and voluntary sectors, become less rigid, these partnerships will continue to grow. And I'm sure you need no reminding that during the past ten years, a new order has emerged and is emerging, which is changing the roles traditionally per performed by the three sectors. For example, with the creation of hospital trusts, with the opting out of schools, with the contracting out of local government services. I would certainly advocate the existence of more fora where the three sectors can come together to achieve mutual understanding and where c we can debate this new order, and make joint decisions about its future. What about the relationships, specifically between the private and the voluntary sectors. The U K's voluntary sector is large, its turnover is estimated at about seventeen billion. Which incidentally makes it larger than agriculture. The voluntary sector, therefore, has an enormous role to play, in all our lives, and investing in it, is essential for the long term future of commerce and industry, for without it, the cement would not, would not set, and cracks would appear throughout our society. An investment, I repeat, investment, is the key word here. As I said last year at the Whitbread and Company conference on employee volunteering. We regard expenditure in the community as being in a par with expenditure in any other sphere of business activity, and subject to the same management disciplines. It is investment like any other business investment, and it should be clear what it is intended to achieve, and how this is to be measured. This is a view shared by about three hundred leading companies, including I B M, who belong to the per cent club. Members of that club see private sector involvement in the community as an integral part of corporate life, which can improve both business itself and the relationship between business sector and the community as a whole. Qualifications for the per cent club, which was launched by the Prince of Wales in nineteen eighty six, is the contribution of no less than half a per cent of pre-tax, U K profits, or one per cent of dividends to the community. The aims of the per cent club were described by the Archbishop of Canterbury, at the clubs, at the clubs annual general meeting last week, as clear and refreshing. He said, impressed by the growing co-operation between so many businesses and their local communities. It is the wealth creators, he said, who open up the great possibilities for improvement in our society. Community investment which without modesty, er, I can say is a phrase coined by I B M, is seen to be of strategic importance to many leading companies. A major plank of our community investment strategy is to work in partnership with the voluntary sector, at both national and local levels, and forgive me if I use I B M to instrumental in setting up the north-east environmental initiative in partnership with the ground-work trust, business in the community and Gateshead Borough Council. The initiative's aim is to encourage children in schools, to think about the environment, and involve producing an environmental teaching pack, running an environmental course for teachers, and developing a green software application for us on personal computer in schools. Now let me talk a little bit about policies. I B M, U K has long established policies for managing its corporate social responsibility, and as I said earlier, applies the same principles to this as to any other business activity. Thus we've never considered it right to hand out cheques on a mere whim, deciding to sponsor a project, or support a charity because it happened to be the flavour of the month, or because a director had some some particular keen interest in it. Last year we gave four point four million, either in kind, or in people's time, not including er, that that's secondees, or erm, in in money, er, and er, it sounds a lot of money, but you can easily get rid of that sum, when you're receiving so many requests. So it's im particularly important to target it, and to make sure that there is some impact, as a result of that expenditure. So our support has been subject to redefined guidelines, as you'd expect from any efficient organisation. Recently, we've come to think er, even more strategically about the projects, and organisations we've chosen to support for of course, two reasons. First, this more systematic approach, has left rather less room for doubt when making decisions about contributions, when one gets so many applications, and second, the recession has forced us to look more carefully at how potential new investments might meet company objectives as well as the needs of the community. Notice it's not altruism, I'm arguing very clearly, as as self interest in in the activity. I'm sure this strategic approach is appreciated and understood by organisations such as yourselves, who prefer the closer working relationship which follows this kind of of support. What do we bring to this partnership for the voluntary sector. Our most obvious support is through cash donations, but often it's much more than that. We bring the time of our people, resources in kind, and skills and expertise. Employment, impartment of the voluntary sector is one of the fo one of the four er, basic areas which we define for support er, against their background of er, of targeting. Now by impartment, we mean, we mean, enabling, we mean helping the voluntary sector to be more ef effective and efficient in the use of its scarce resources. So that is a very clear objective that we have, as one of our contributions. We do this in several ways, including for example, our creative management skills course, which won a a national training award in nineteen eighty-eight, and which we make available, of course, to managers within the voluntary sector. And in addition the I B M fund for com community computing, which was launched by John, the Minister of State at the Home Office earlier this year. We've been running the management skills courses since nineteen eighty-six, and since then, more than seven hundred and fifty people, from groups such as yours, have taken a part, and we're about to launch a phase two in the next er, year or so. It offers practical advice on team work, time and task management, leadership and delegation, the motivation of others and many other topics. There can be no doubt that this course has heightened the management skills of some of those working in the voluntary sector, but an extra benefit is that it had widened the links between I B M and you, and widened the understanding between both of us. The fund for community, computing I mentioned earlier, is aimed at helping voluntary and community organisations to use information technology more efficiently. Many organisations, as I'm sure you are aware, buy computer or receive them as gifts, but they don't make full use of them because of the lack of money for the necessary training and consultancy. The fund will provide grants for up to a thousand pounds for these organisations to spend on such training. Another way in which we is by encouraging and facilitating employee volunteering. I B M is just one of many companies, who now feel that lending employees rather than giving money, is a better way to work with a voluntary sector. One of the main facilitators for community involvement is what has become known in I B M as the ten per cent scheme. This enables our employees to use the equivalent of one afternoon a week during working hours, for approved community activities, always of course, subject to workload. And many of employees are involved in voluntary groups, education and training, the arts and charities, in of course, their own spare time. In fact our office in Edinburgh, last week, won a major U K award for employee volunteering. The award was presented by the Prince of Wales at the Annual Meeting of the per cent club, which I've already mentioned, and it was during nineteen ninety, and it won the private sector small to medium size company, or companies subsidiary sector category. Incidentally, much of its work was done in support of the Citizens' Advice Bureaux, erm, in which it helped develop er, computer applications, and also it had the courage to organise a major AIDS conference. You will, I'm sure, some of you will be familiar with the drugs AIDS problem, which exists in Edinburgh. By the way, the overall winner, so I don't make it too I B M, was of course, Body Shop International. One of the reasons, I B M's Edinburgh office won the award, was the enthusiasm of the employees. And this was also why L E A T, [spelling] L E A T [] our Local Environment Action Teams, initiative, proved to be so outstanding. L E A T was designed to encourage employees and their families to undertake voluntary work to improve the environment. Employees were awarded sums of money between a hundred pounds and fifteen thousand pounds to tackle projects in partnership with national or local voluntary organisations. When the scheme was announced the need for individual as well as corporate action was underlined by Tony. In this area, and others we support, it's the individuals which a company's role in the community so well received. Individual co [end of tape]

[speaker001:] ... L E A T [spelling] L E A T [] our local Environment Action Teams, initiative proved to be so outstanding. L E A T was designed to encourage employees and their families to undertake voluntary work to improve the environment. Employees were awarded sums of money between a hundred pounds and fifteen thousand pounds to tackle projects in partnership with national or local voluntary organisations. When the scheme was announced the need for individual as well as corporate action was underlined by Tony. In this area, and others we support, it's the individuals which make a company's role in the community so well received. Individual contact much more than organisation to organisation is a way barriers between the sectors are broken down, and a way we can understand each other 's motives and ideals. So these are just some of the ways we're working to empower the voluntary sector as I myself s as I said earlier, this is one of the key focus areas for the nineties. The other three focus areas, to complete my story, are education, the environment and information technology for people with disabilities. All of these areas enable us to create long term partnerships with the groups and organisations we're committed to help, and all of them enrich I B M's own long term aims. For instance by encouraging an active interest in the environment in which we live, and by supporting groups or promoting cleaner technology, less pollution and less waste, we're ensuring the quality of life for future generations, and also the potential for future business opportunities. And by offering management skills training courses to heads and deputy heads of schools, we're helping schools become more adept at self management. These initiatives also enable I B M to offer the voluntary sector as an alternative to cash, one of our most valuable assets, our people and their time. Groups who've got to know I B M over the er, years, will know that one further advantage of our concentration on specific areas for investment, is that we're able to measure degrees of success rather more easily. Surveys are a way of life with an I B M. as they are in many companies today. Annual surveys, opinion surveys, satisfaction surveys, meetings assessments, canteen questionnaires, we're obsessed with measurement. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. I B M employees rarely go to a conference, attend a meeting or take part in a course without being asked whether it meant their expectations, whether it was too long, too short, too dull, or ju or just too much. The reason for this is simple. How do you know whether anything has been a success, or whether you're doing anything right, unless you ask, and we expect this rationale to follow through into our community investment programme. We like to see how a project is progressing, find out what use er, what groups makes of our support, discover how a training course helped their staff. I recognise that the voluntary sector is increasingly being asked to evaluate its work for its funders, and equally we want to know how we, in I B M, measure up to your expectations. If we're not doing it right, we need to know. This is one of the reasons we took part in a pilot evaluation scheme, funded by I B M Corporation. To measure the expectations of the various communities and see what impact we were having through our investment programme. The pilot was carried out at two of our locations, Greenock in Scotland, where we have a manufacturing and development site, and Bristol. In both locations about a third of employees were involved in some sort of voluntary activity. Employees local business people, opinion leaders and the general public were questioned. The survey found that everyone, expected I B M to be involved in corporate social responsibility programmes, but not everyone knew what our programmes were. They agreed with our four focus areas, and agreed that our strategy of offering our employees and their skills, rather than just money was the right one. And these views were very encouraging and will help us plan our programme into the nineties. We're also taking part in the Rountree Foundation Survey which will ask voluntary sector groups about their experiences with I B M. So we will be able to find out what you really think about us. Now my remarks so far have concentrated on the relationships between our three sectors. There's one other point that's important to make about the contribution that companies can make about having their own house in order, and it rather echoes some of the questions which are coming up in a, in a question session. For instance, I think it's, I think it's rather pointless to be preaching er values outside an organisation, if ones not following those values within the organisation. For instance, by employing people from minority ethnic groups, by employing disabled people, by following equal opportunity of principles, by providing adequate child-care facilities, the impact on the community, of course, can be, can be quite profound. Employers with pay policy enables mothers to return to work and pay for quality child-care, can be of great benefit in an area where there's a high proportion of single parent families or families where the mother is the major the breadwinner At a company offers equal opportunity regardless of race, colour or sex, heightens the feeling of self-esteem and potential of individuals within minority groups and this self- esteem can be catching. By enriching the lives of its employees, a business can have a dramatic follow-on effect within the community. It was certainly a source of great pride to me in the nineteen sixties to be Personnel Manager of the Greenock plant, in an area which is noted to it's erm, insecurity, to see the effects on the living standards and conditions and morale of the general community of having a manufacturing plant which had stability of labour, as well as it's er, objectives. I consider that I B M strives to be a good employer and that it's long established belief in respect for the individual has shaped our personal policies to reflect these needs within our community, and for example, our equal opportunity principles prevent us from considering race, colour or sex, when offering someone employment or promotion. Our support for businesses in the communities, Opportunity Two Thousand, and the setting of targets, which are public targets, confirms our commitment to encourage high level job opportunities for women. So having looked at the relationship between business and the voluntary sector today, let's take a brief look at the future. At the time when the income of many of the top charities is said to be either static, or to have fallen, it's essential for public in the private sector, do not forsake their supporting role. I read only last week, for instance, that the N S P C C is suffering severely from the recession and higher running costs, and I'm sure they're not alone. The perceived decrease in the public's generosity means that it is even more important for businesses, and I mean all business, not just the larger ones that have traditionally provided the pool of resource, to realise that their businesses would only succeed within a healthy society, and a healthy society means the support of business men and business women. It's not good just to occasionally buy a flag, or to sponsor some friends mor marathon, one needs more than good intentions. It was heartening in fact to hear that W H Smith is to celebrate is bi-centenary next year, by providing the Samaritans with a special telephone link line. Calls will be linked automatically to the first available Samaritan volunteer, whatever part of the country they happen to be in. That reminds me that it was Margaret Thatcher who said, Nobody would remember the Good Samaritan, if all he had was good intentions. He had money as well. Likewise both business and government must have more than good intentions in order to turn the well meaning idealism into practical support, funding and long term dialogue, and the publication of a Charities Bill,in trying to increase public confidence in the sector, is a step in the right direction. Well, when I was asked to speak to you today, I decided to look at the Oxford Dictionary's definition of Community, which is joint ownership or liability. This is, I think, what we should all be aiming for in the future. The public sector, the private sector and the voluntary sector, all have joint ownership of the future health of the community. Joint ownership of the future prosperity of the community and joint ownership of the future skills... of the community. Ladies and gentlemen, it was a privilege to speak to you today. I hope I've demonstrated that corporate support, individual support, government support, must go hand in hand. It's not a question of what a company can do for a day centre, or what an environmental group can do for a business, it's a question what we can all do together, for the community. Thank you very much. [applause] Thank you very much, Sir Leonard for that, in th in the beginning of your address you posed the question, what does a company like I B M have to do with a community and then proceeded to answer your question, I think in a most, er, comprehensive way, and I I speak as someone who lives in a county, Hampshire, where I B M has a strong er, base, and I know from personal experience as a volunteer in that county, how much we value the contacts that we have with I B M and the way in which we work together with them in the way that you have described. Erm, I understand that you are willing to answer questions from the floor for a few minutes. Well, I'm delighted to, I feel a bit like the er, that story about the professor and the chauffeur, though, which I must tell. Which is of course, the er, the professor and the chauffeur are, erm, on their way to the professor's engagement. Like most professor's, he only gives one lecture. He gives it very well, and he's on on his way to an evening engagement, and the professor, says I'm feeling very tired tonight, and I don't think I want to give er,th the talk, but I don't know, I I obviously I have to go, the chauffeur said, no problem, he said, all we need is to change hats, I've heard you give that same talk so many times, I would actually give it. And so er, they changed hats, when they get there, and the chauffeur's introduced a as the professor, goes on the platform, and of course the professor sits at the back of the room with the chauffeur's hat. Erm, what happens of course, is th that the lecture is brilliantly delivered, er, but, but, what happens is he, the chauffeur finishes two minutes early and the chairman, being excellent as a Chairperson, actually says, we have time for just one question, and er, someone stands up and asks the most dreadful question from the audience, and er, the chauffeur listens to the question, thinks, and th then says, that's questions very easy, very easy indeed, that question is so easy, I'm going to ask my chauffeur who is sitting at the back of the room [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] to answer it. Now sitting at the back of the room is Sandra, who does much of the work. Where are you Sandra, [LAUGHTER] have you got your chauffeur's hat on. [LAUGHTER] Over to you. I think Sir Leonard, that was a very well rehearsed ploy. It was. [LAUGHTER] To occupy two minutes. [LAUGHTER] But, but, certainly a at the back, please. I want to give you some positive feedback, you asked for it, from the National Alliance of Women's Organisations, er, which represents two hundred and six organisations, in, all in all about five million women. You don't yet give us money, although I hope may, one day you will be persuaded to do so, but you have given us time, and particularly in the person of your colleague Sandra who is here, and her time to us has been enormously valuable and I want to thank you for that. I also, er, we are also putting in for your community computing scheme, erm, realising that it will not only, if we get it, increase our own expertise and make us more efficient, which heaven knows, all organisations need to be, but will also be ab enable us to give advice to all the organisations we represent, and thus have an enormous ripple effect. So I want to give you that positive feed-back. Please do not take it as an example that you may all leap to your feed to make your bids. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No,San Sandra, make a note of that er, [LAUGHTER] that bid will you. We have to look upon it with interest. [LAUGHTER] Good, there, you see. Erm... sorry. Gentleman energy council, I'm not make a bid, we've just, er we've just heard, what I think is a, is an example of enlightened and model practice, so praise is on the superfluous, but I think we're probably not typical of of the business sector in being so enlightened, and my question is only a wide one, and it is this. What sort of, erm, pressure or involvement or leadership ought to be given, or wh, yeah, what pressure ought to be put on the business sector, in order that it should sort of, conform... conform is not a very good word, in order, it's ability to to contribute to the voluntary sector, and engage with it, should not be based upon individual and enlightened examples, such as I B M's, but should pull upwards the rest of the business sector, in other words, should N C V O actually says to the business sector as a whole, look, we think globally this is what you ought to be doing. It would be impertinent to say that to N C V er, to I B M, but it might be appropriate to say it to some of the less enlightened firms, or, should John be taking a similar line, in other words, how interventionist would you like either government or N C V O speaking on behalf of the vol voluntary sector to be, in pressing the business sector to have an overall and agreed strategy rather than the individual and enlightened strategy you put forward. Thank you. Well, thank you for the kind remarks. I think they're perhaps, if anything too generous because er, I will remind you as I said of the, at least three hundred companies who are doing pretty effective work in this area. They tend to be the larger companies, I have to be fair, er, but er, one of the encouraging things from my point of view, and I, we started rather early, maybe fifteen, twenty years ago has been to see the growth of this particular sector, where people have moved progressively into, I think a much more enlightened posture in the last ten or fifteen years, and B I C, Business in the Community of course, have to take, I think much credit for that. The leadership of B I C, involvement of the Prince of Wales, and indeed the involvement of the senior executives in their councils, I think has been very helpful. So er, kind words to us, thank you very much, but there are bodies which are working very effectively to spread the net, er, my view, by the way, is of course erm, I'm a great believer in, er pressures being exercised by every mechanism. If you want er, the pressures have to be carefully thought out, er, and I think you have to be able to demonstrate that it is, it is self interest, and I think one continues to actually use these words. Not pure altruism, it is self interest, which, in fact, is your lever. And you have to use, and I'm sure you do it already, you use the networks which are available to you, you have contacts, you have employees of companies working for you. You can exercise upwards pressure, er, no... no organisation can stand alone. I think the government, and John by the way has been superb to us, in terms of being willing to come along, and help us do the work we're doing, and I'm, I believe the government has a great interest in this field. Erm, in the same way, your own organisations must produce, I think, good quality pressure mechanisms, including ve very clear objectives, what you're trying to achieve, and how you're trying to achieve it, and the sort of resource you need, the sort of resource you need. You may well find it easier to obtain people again, particularly with a new climate on employed volunteering, there's no doubt about that, that there is a new attitude where companies are willing to encourage employees to spend their time and to help o to help them give minimum resources, to organise them. So it's not, it's not a question of any one government, or the voluntary organisations or the companies putting pressure, it's a question of all of them working out mechanisms by which they can persuade more and more people to join this particular movement. Erm, could I just follow that on, Sir Leonard, you said earlier, there should be more fora, to bring people together. That's right. W would you like to just, adding that on to what you've already said, how you think this might be initiated. Well, erm, I I give a very small example of that, er, we're very privileged er, in having four distinguished leaders of the voluntary sector, who meet with us every four months, and they, er, we only meet for two two and a half hours, and we talk through what we think we're trying to do, as a company. They give us their advice on what they know about the voluntary sector, and they give us guidance and help, in fact, the meeting took place er, only two days ago, and absolutely invaluable to be able to sit and listen to people who've spent their life in the voluntary sector working with some of the difficulties we don't appreciate. So, that's for in a very small way, which is individual companies building up their own relationships, getting together people from the voluntary sector, nationally or locally, and talking through the nature of the problems, and how they can help. Th there, there's a minu a minute example, erm, in fact it's probably more effective in some ways, than the great fora, forum, in which you have larger assemblies of people who enjoy th the hours, during the course of the day, but often don't go away and do anything. I mean, I'm a bit cynical about great conferences, they're important if you're trying to set a tone, and they're important if you want the press and the media involved, but actually it's a smaller fora on the local basis, which actually produces much better results, in my opinion, but that's the sort of thing I have in mind. Yes, thank you very much, erm, question at the back, please. Thank you, Jill Carers [clears throat] sorry, Carers National Association. I'd like to ask you very specifically about your policy, I B M's policy on carers in the workforce. [clears throat] It's estimated that one in seven of the part-time workforce has some kind of caring responsibilities, and many of them are attempting to maintain a full-time or at least a part-time job, while carrying those responsibilities. Thus far there's very little evidence that employers are taking this on board. Though one of the best thing we can do for carers is enable t them to keep on with part-time work as long as possible. What is I B M's policy on that? Well, erm, the answer there is that, I think we've done a lot of things for carers who are concerned with children. We have done very little fo for carers who are concerned with aged parents. And I think that, really is the essence of of your question. Er, what we have done, of course, is change our whole attitude er over ten or fifteen years, to part-time employment. Had you asked me that question ten or fifteen years ago, I'd be mildly embarrassed, because I would have said that we took a very rigid attitude, where we insisted that people work full-time. Er, I can assure you that we have ser, we have several hundred people now, who are working on a part-time basis, because they choose to work part-time, whatever their commitments may be. So I think we've taken a more enlightened attitude in that sense. In terms of erm, return to work, er, we also er have been very good, I think, in the sense that we now offer the twenty-five per cent bonus er, after pregnancy, don't get me wrong on that, er, what happens is, people are actually recompensed, given back the money which they've sacrificed because they've been away from work for six months, and they get is back over the next two years. So we give them a twenty five per cent mark-up, and we reckon that this helps with the whole business of child-care, since we're not ungenerous in the salaries we pay,fo for the start, adding, by adding twenty five per cent of that, we're helping. The other thing of course, is leave of absence,an and part-time work. We would actually guarantee that, jobs for numbers of years, so the people can actually take time off and then return, er, we also have arrangements to keep people in touch the business so, I'm very proud of that record. I then become rather more hesitant, when I have to face up to the problems particularly of er, women looking after elderly parents, because the burden does seem to fall, as you would know, on the women. And er, although I think we encourage managers to be generous in terms of again part-time working and time off, I think our corporation, and now I go to the United States, has probably taken a more enlightened attitude than we have so far. What we have done recently, as a point of interest to you, and I'd be interested in, perhaps informal feedback, rather than direct feedback. We have been running an experiment in our laboratories, which erm, employs about eighteen hundred people, and I've been paying a sum of money, so that they can have anybody with a problem in the laboratories, can have independent counselling, er, and it seems to me, I've been lo reviewing it, measurement again, we've just been running it for a year, and I've been interested to see the types of problem they've been taking outside. W w we can't identify the people, of course, the the thing is anonymous. But th, we go get a er, report from the counselling agency on the type of, of er, question that's been posed, and I would expect that that agency would be providing help and guidance, er, along the lines of suggesting and working with the individual on problems of the type, which I'm sure you have at the front of your mind. But at the moment, I cannot speak with the same feeling of achievement about caring for er, elderly, the elderly relative, whereas I think I can say with conviction we've done quite a lot for those with small children. Thank you very much. Another... at the back... Leslie. I wonder whether I may ask a question relating to your personal experience rather than I B M per se. We work in the Health arena, you yourself have had considerable experience, and you referred to the changing roles between public and private agencies, and you mentioned trusts and so on in the health arena, I just wondered whether you'd like to explore with us a little, your own personal thinking about the nature of these changing roles, and perhaps a little bit of crystal ball gazing ahead, [LAUGHTER] as to how you personally, we won't hold it against you, but how you personally might like to see that going. Yes, well I was, I was erm, I must put myself in historical context. Erm, I was with the N H S between nineteen eighty-five and January the thirty-first, nineteen eighty-nine. Indeed, had you seen Ken white paper statement on television that night, you would see me sitting in the audience, smiling gently at the thought that I was about to leave the N H S. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] My job essentially was to introduce general management, and therefore I er, I was able to use many of the skills which I had acquired in I B M, but of course, I was also part of the Griffiths debate, here I'm talking about Griffiths Two, not Griffiths One, I was implementing Griffiths One, which was general management, Griffiths Two was a community, the community debate, so I saw something, which I'm certainly not allowed to quote, of the great debates that went on over the period of eighteen months before the eventual decision was made about community care. So it it's quite clear that the government and er, industry, the community, will put enormous burden, inevitably on the voluntary worker in the health sector. Er, I see no answer to that, other than the fact that they will be a continuing relationship with the voluntary sector, er, and the problem is, how to organise it. Er, that's one of the, one of the debates about the fora, the forum. Er, I'm a little bit out of touch, so,i if I sound hesitant [clears throat] it's because I simply don't know how much debate has been taking place, and how, systematised the relationships are going to be in the future. I mean, quite clearly there is an entirely new relationship developing between government and the voluntary sector, it seems to me, which is a contractual relationship in a sense. Now I don't know how that will develop. I do need, er, I do know that that the conflict between government, local government, the voluntary sector and all others who have an interest, can be quite prodigious, and the ways to resource can be also, quite considerable, and the whole thing does need to be debated and sorted out. Some people might argue at a local level rather than a central level, you're much more likely to get effectiveness at a local level, than of by central dictate. On the other hand, you do need guidelines to work to. I'm afraid that's very general. Er, you may be glad to know, or unhappy to know, that I'm actually still on contact with the health service because I'm a non-executive director of the Royal London Trust, which works of course, in Whitechapel, one of the poorer areas of London, and it's not quite so glamorous as Guys, but actually it's doing quite a good job. Thank you very much. Very last question, because time is running, please. Erm, I'd just like to ask Sir Leonard whether the nature of the issues that are dealt with by environmental organisations, erm, indeed arguments such as pays etc. erm, introduces a difference in the nature of the relationship between the private sector and environmental N G Os, particularly when the issues that we promote, such as su the sustainable use of the world resources and the reduction of environmental degradation can have a direct impact on a companies bottom line. Well, you see, it's easier for me to sit here, and to pontificate, and therefore your questions were well put, erm, we can demonstrate, I think a much more effective approach to the environment in in our field, because er, we're dealing with chemicals which we have some control over, and which exists to some small degree in air, air machines. C F Cs, for example, er, we have just one a major prize, I'm pleased to tell you, for eliminating C F Cs at our Greenock plant. So it's easy for me to sit here and say, we think we're doing a good job on the environment, because we're not threatened, we do have to find ways round existing chemicals, we may have to pay, pay a higher price, but we're not threatened in terms of the the core of our bottom line. I think companies certainly are interested in creating the right impression, in in fact in creating the right er, environment, and they are willing, of course, to pay a a price, but the argument er, which you put is if you threaten the companies existence, right. Don't you actually set up attention, and the answer of course, you do. Er, what companies can do, or should seek to do, is of course, see if they can manage round those tensions as well, but it takes a very long time to do that. So, I have to say, that er, I believe that companies which erm, find it easy to change, are of course, changing. Companies which find it more difficult because it's the centre of their existence, erm, are clearly looking at the situation, but will actually take a very long time to move to the position which you, in your particular group would like them to occupy, and I understand that, changing in I C I is rather different from changing at I B M, and er, therefore it takes longer, but I do see a a consciousness, it's the same conscious, you're impatient for change, quite rightly, companies of course, have to keep their employees in an earning capacity, at the same time, er, move towards the position which you would like to them to do, and it may take a long time, but I accept your point, which is with some companies, then in fact, your clearly going to get attention of some kind. Thank you very much, Sir Leonard. Sadly we must bring this, er session to an end. I do not think, Sir Leonard, that you will need to distribute your I B M questionnaires to calculate the satisfaction level of this session this morning, I think the c rapt attention, the erm, interest and the cl clarity with which you have answered our questions, the ideas I think, which we shall take from your address, some, I might say, to ad to try out on other companies, perhaps, whose record is not as good, I think all of this is of the most enormous value, and as I said at the beginning, I feel very pleased myself, that I live in in a part of the country where we have an I B M presence, and and er, we we value that relationship. So thank you very much indeed, for coming, for addressing us, and we look forward I think both at national level and as you suggest, at local level with ever more valuable and productive relationships with the private sector, together with the other partners which, er, whom we need, and thank you for leading us along this Thank you, thank you for the opportunity. [applause] I I must just now, say one or two very brief things before you disa Before you do. Oh, oh, oh. have the floor, realise, I've got a very nice part to undertake. Oh dear. Would you like to stand up, Oh dear. 'Cos I've been told, I've got to get you ready for the photographer. Oh. You don't know anything about this, but Kay has been involved with N C V O for more than ten years, she joined the Executive Committee in nineteen eighty-one, I'm reliably informed, just before I got involved. I forget. [LAUGHTER] and then you were inveigled to the R and D and then you inveigled to become a Vice Chair, and today you've been handling the ceremony so well, we've had to keep you in cotton wool to make sure that er, that you kept your health. [LAUGHTER] And we're very grateful, you've brought rural interest, you've brought much wider interest, and you've brought a great deal of warmth and compassion and interest and time, what more could we say, but to show a token of our appreciation and give you a few flowers to go with that. Oh. Thank you so much. [applause] Oh. I find this most embarrassing. Thank you very much, I can only say that I have always felt it a privilege to be part of N C V O. Er, I have enjoyed my time enormously and if I've had any role that I feel that I'm proud of, it's constantly bringing members to mind. I'm now, I'm not retiring, I'm just going back to being part of a member from my Hampshire Council of Community Service, and I shall be writing, of course, very rude letter, if the services and the communications of letters don't come up to standards. But thank you all, and I wish you you the members and N C V O itself, every good fortune, and I think we've had such a good day today, and I think Sir Leonard has shown us a really very clear way forward, and I know that the relationships which already exist, and those which will be developed can only be Thank you all very much for your support and help through those years. [applause] Ar, now I forgot what I was going to say, so I'll have to go back and look at my piece of paper now. Erm, two o'clock absolutely promptly, please, at your seminar rooms. The lists are outside and the the venues, and please take the opportunity during the lunch-break to make contact with your, to make contact with your Chair of Electoral Colleges, your Chairs, er, especially those perhaps, who are new members, the Chairs on their name-tag have a red star, and I think you will all know from the resolution this morning, who are the new Chairs, if they, if they have changed. So please make those contacts, so that you can erm, make arrangements to discuss, obviously things of mutual concern, promptly please, to your seminars, when we will continue some of the discussions we've been having this morning, and thank you all very much indeed. [applause]

[speaker001:] And er the result of all of that has been that the current development programme scheduled which we have supplied to the committee is probably about as fast as the programme is capable of running. First flight still going to be in April. We are confident it will be in April, yes. And will that aircraft be less capable in its first flight than you'd originally hoped? Erm... it is always been planned... that the... this er release of the flight control system will be phased through five steps and the... capabilities at first flight are more or less what we had been planning er right from the outset. The cost is going to be some three thousand four hundred million I think er t to the U K. That's er e gone up by about thirteen percent four hundred million roughly, er over the original estimate. Half of that is due to programme reorientation because of the... extension of the... programme by two years as I understand it, can you... spell out what those costs are and are we having to pay more because Germany wants to slow the programme down? Perhaps I can ask Mr Perry to er fill in the details on cost. [Perry:] yes... erm Mr Trotter er that er apportionment of the... four hundred and fifty million between er the effect of... programme re-orientation and other factors. [speaker001:] Can I just say that I had figured four hundred million it is in fact four fifty. [Perry:] Four fifty million, sorry, four fifty million erm between programme re-orientation and other factors, was an apportionment we made er back in the er... first part of nineteen ninety three and... in the light of later information I think we would revised that now erm... we are still negotiating with the contractors on the revised contract price and we do not have definitive costs yet but in fact the... costs increased as a result of the rescheduling of the programme directly should be quite modest. There are some unavoidable costs er on that account, particularly on the engine programme where delays to the aircraft programme which result in extra costs on the engine side, are the customer's liability, erm but the... main increase in cost is actually in the equipment area and results I think, from the fact that the equipment prices turned out to be higher than was originally estimated at the start of the programme and also the fact that U K industry won a higher work share on equipment that we had originally been entitled to and budgeted for and lastly the point you mentioned that Germany has withdrawn from some parts of the requirement and that made... certain equipments non-common and we have had to take a larger share of the costs of those equipments than originally planned. [speaker001:] Okay. Can you spell out how our... share of the cost has increased because our share of the work has increased because I thought presumably the bill was still divided... proportionately between the countries. [Perry:] No the... the bills are met by er on the territorial funding basis so basically we pay for the work done in the U K. [speaker001:] From which we will get the benefit presumably when production's done. [Perry:] In in in in er general terms. Whether the production work sharing is something that is still to be decided er at the start of that phase but on the equipment, we were... er... originally entitled to thirty three percent of the common equipment er... when we last gave evidence to the committee the U K work share for equipment stood at some thirty six percent of those that had been selected at that time. We have succeeded since in getting it down to something just over thirty four percent... now er and erm... therefore we are not much above our original work share but each percentage point of equipment costs us about ten million pounds extra. [speaker001:] somewhat concerned at the... er production sharing is not yet to be agreed er i i i is there a formula that is going to be applied? [Perry:] Yes indeed erm the the general M O U states that er work share will be proportionate to the off date that each nation takes. [speaker001:] So it's dependent upon the finalisation of the orders. [Perry:] Indeed [speaker001:] numbers But w what about er er further increases the there seem to be some suggestions that we may find the three thousand four hundred million going even higher. [Perry:] I... prefer not to speculate about that er at this stage, particularly in public session we are... tha that is the... current estimate of project cost. We are waiting for a new quotation from Eurofighter for their part of the programme erm but in advance of receiving it I'd not... rather not speculate as to which impact it might have on the project. [speaker001:] I think we might come back to that Mr session and see if we can extract a little more that way. I is there anything you can tell us about the additional costs of er... er increased specifications, there have been some increases as well minor reductions. Is there any specific item you can spell out for us that additional costs. I'm not aware of Well any increase in specification... some, some of the programme has been re-orientated. I think I I can now understand Yes the the point er er that you're making Mr Trotter. W in the estimates will you have will have received, we have made provision for some additional costs that were not covered by the original quote, the new weapons for example, were not covered in the original quote so they will be covered in the new programme cost. That's in the three thousand four hundred figure. Yes But can we. to some degree but not all and... you know in in due course we will provide you with a full... breakdown of this, exactly what is in and what isn't in. I think there's only one other point which I'd I'd like to make and that concerns the the programme re-orientation and the cost implications of that er one aspect of programme re-orientation which we've been conscious of is the need to preserve the delivery dates of the first production standard aircraft to the Royal Air Force and Italian Air Force in the year two thousand. Now erm... when you work back from that date er all the various activities that industry have gotta go through... erm you discover that erm... the production investment... activities er... really need to start to some level at some very low level, er later this year. But er... the these production investment activities are associated really with production engineering, er very closely aligned with development and erm unless you can do those... between now and the end of nineteen ninety five, when we start the P I phase in nineteen ninety six... before you can really make any progress you would then have to do a further year and a half of production engineering so in the new quotations Eurofighter are making a case for what they term a development assurance phase, some advance production engineering work... starting later this year and going on until the end of ninety five but when we start P I in ninety six, we can start with a bang and make... fast progress. Yes thank you. I'll ask Michael Colgan now to take us... a bit further down a look at the costs. [Michael:] Erm yes Mr Chairman.... Mr Gordon in your erm opening remarks you referred to the fact that erm following the programme re-orientation I think you words were that the full government are now capping their liabilities on the programme. Well now... at the outset only seventy three percent erm of the development programme was subject to maximum price. Do I now understand it that the whole programme is subject to maximum price? [Gordon:] That is our aim and I'll invite Mr Perry to explain that a little further. [Perry:] Yes as you say there there is a budgetary or pegged element in the original prices and we are, as part of the... amendment to the contract to reflect the... the revised programme er seeking to place the total of the price for the Eurofighter contract onto a maximum price basis so that there would be no... er areas which were not capped. On the Eurojet contract we are seeking to actually convert that to a fixed price at this stage because the programme is more advanced it is reasonable to do that er on the air frame contract... probably the uncertainty and the degree of risk... at this stage is too high to move to a fixed price at this point. [speaker001:] Right, now am I right in saying that that in order to control erm costs... erm the elements covered by the maximum price were divided into thirty four packages, is it still thirty four packages? Yes. Erm and ho how many of those do you expect to have agreed as fixed prices at er this stage of of the development? I think er the original plan would have envisaged er a very high proportion of that work having been converted to a fixed price at this point in the programme because according to the original programme not only would the aircraft have flown but we would be entering production investment at this stage and we would there be be fairly confident about the er maturity of the design, however the programme has proceeded much more slowly... than originally planned and the amount of er the price that has been converted to a fixed price is indeed quite modest er we have in fact I think only converted eight of the price packages to a fixed price er basis so far. Eight. And it is unlikely in fact now that we we will convert... more until er probably nineteen ninety five er shortly before going into production investment. Erm now could you help me on some of the the terminology used... because I gather that six of the packages... have been or about to be erm... priced on the basis of a ascertained costs erm I I just wondered if if that was a sort of euphemism for for a cost plus. What is ascertained? Essentially it mean that er the work is is more or less complete and therefore we are pricing it on the basis of the actual out turn of costs. So it is... essentially a fixed price? Fixed. Fixed cost. Er well costs that are known. Yes right. All uncertainty has been removed now. There's one of the packages been priced on a forward basis, what does that mean That means that the work is not yet er complete er and therefore er we are pricing against an expectation of the likely out turn of cost. Right, well am I also right in thinking that as as a rule of thumb, fixed prices should be agreed before a third of the war, of the work is completed? That would be desirable. So erm... can you tell us what proportion of the work erm had been completed before prices were fixed erm for those packages that have been... an and also what proportion of the work has been completed on those packages yet to be priced. Yes well if we take for example er... probably the largest of the packages which we have priced converted to a fixed price basis so far which was... package number three, er the tooling for the development aircraft and roll equipment which is erm... er forty eight million pounds, that was priced in August nineteen ninety two when eighty percent of that work had been done. Right. Mr Colman if I might add... that re- orientation... has brought with it the need to change our pricing strategy... and therefore rather than going package by package right through the whole thirty four, we're actually trying initially on the engines to go in one bang to price everything on the engines and do it... in the next few months. Right. For the er we'd really like to do the same thing for the whole weapons system with Eurofighter also... but the the premium that eurofighter might demand to cover the risk. No. Their risk... might be more than we would wish to face up to right now. So we have put a marker in the ground and said we are not going to move forward in the production investment phase... until we are satisfied that we have a fixed price at that point so we are actually going to cap our liabilities for Eurofighter with a max price for the whole of the remainder of the programme... and then we will fix the price and hopefully get some... economies from fixing at that point in time before we move forward into the next phase. So unclear. Right Pricing the strategy on the packages that er... we have er mentioned is er now changing. [Michael:] Right, now you you've already made it clear to us that about half the increase in development costs are due to increases in the costs of the... equipment. The that is so erm... how much in total and or proportionally was due to equipments themselves being... more expensive than expected and how much because the U K share of costs was higher. [speaker001:] Erm... I s... don't think I can give you a precise answer to that question er off the cuff Mr Colgan, I think we'd have to let you have a note on those figures hmm... right, yeah but all these equipments would have been selected by by competition would they? Yes indeed And on a fixed price basis? Yes, yep fine... thank you. Yes just before we leave however the question of what occur in my mind how you're going to get from the present... position in what appears to be a cost plus basis as we go along... to a fixed cost basis... and presumably the programme and I in in, are running as it were, are running effectively on the cost plus basis Well. and that accounts of twenty six of the thirty four packages. I I don't wish... to, to quibble... but is actually a cost minus basis... industry is not being paid its full costs for this programme, they've been paid... a percentage less than the cost they actually incur. Depending upon the master. a very good piece of negotiation on your part... erm that er there must be a reason why industry's prepared to a lost leader. It's is not er er so much a lost leader, it was an incentive... negotiated into the contract for industry to make progress. They were, are paid at a certain percentage of their incurred costs well below what it has actually cost them, until they demonstrate an achievement at a particular milestone and then the percentage is increased... and er. lost leader. Er well y yes, they'll be running at a loss right through until we eventually fix the prices for the whole programme and er... hopefully the if they do it very efficiently we might make some profit. Well er thank you very much. ask, how many equipments have still to be selected? Erm... the answer is is very few... erm... the pilots N B C filter... the N B C ventilation supply pack, the I R decoy and flares and the chap munition... erm... those are the only things that have not yet been selected. There are three equipments that have been selected where the contracts have not actually yet been placed. And is part of the package i d d does the package er of the aircraft when it comes to be served include things like the simulator or is that something that... outside the contract and is bid for quite separately. Erm, the simulator... will be developed er for this aircraft starting at the same time as we enter the production investment phase. So our, our cost figures for the project will include the simulator but in the next phase of the programme. Currently we have no authority to develop the simulator. Right. Thank you very much. I'll ask John McGuillion now to have a look at the flight control system. [John:] Thank you Mr Gordon erm... you stated I think in your opening, I think y your opening statement, can you confirm that the two year delay has in gaining the first flight has been in actually gaining the flight control system er certified for flight. [speaker001:] Erm... the certification of the flight control system... is the critical path item and has been for some considerable time. [John:] Yes would have been enough. [speaker001:] Sorry. [John:] Yes would have been enough. [speaker001:] Yeah, sure yes. there have been other... reasons for delays er up until about a year ago. So what, can you outline the basic technical problem that you've been having with the flight control system? Well er I think as I mentioned at the outset, there's no fundamental... technical problem er a system operating... broadly in the same way er was designed an an and proved on the United Kingdom's experimental aircraft programme er six or seven years ago, er this... particular aircraft, the airfighter two thousand,... will employ a rather more... er... extensive capability in its flight control system. It's not to interface with more systems, there's a lot more software in it... and er... therefore... the companies concerned have got a lot more work to do. I think it's true to say that the design responsible company, Deutsch Aerospace... erm has discovered that er... there's a lot more software in this system than they had originally imagined and the, their sub contractors of course, they've had to... er write various parts of that for them and erm... putting together the four elements of the programme... has been a lot more complex than anyone imagined. So it's a combination of those factors, if you like, management... difficulties, underestimation of the basic task... er one or two... er hardware problems within the system as a whole.... All of those things have led to lead to this kind of delay. Let's go to hardware problems, one or two, what were they? Erm... the inertial measurement unit which is er a rather critical piece of equipment er in er a system of this nature... initially did not perform to the the full level of requirement that that we... we desire so you know, some further development had to be done on that before it... would match the system. If you get... a hardware problem of any kind here it actually inhibits you from completing the software. You can't verify software until you've got hardware that's capable of operating simultaneously with the software. The... that is the kind of knock on effect we experience. So... let's look at the er software, who set the specification, who specified the software? Erm the specification was written by Deutsch Aerospace. That's fine, erm... what sort I mean what are we, are we back in... back in the old problems we've had before with or is it written in something else? Er... it's written largely in high level language, yes. Alright that's fine. So... Deutsch Aerospace... specified it. Yes. And er G E C Marconi, Avionex... er... were responsible for... making sure that it worked within the hardware in the system. Er G E C Marconi's are the leader of a consortium, a four nation consortium of companies that are supplying the computer and are also contributing to the software. So there's four nations writing the software? Yes. Speaking different languages. Yes. [LAUGHTER] is this not [] a recipe for disaster? Er we have taken every possible precaution to make sure that it's not a recipe for disaster. But it but it's delayed the project by two years. Yes... erm... and er I think in the course of that we will have learned a lot of lessons... the... er that's not a facetious comment, it's true er the the first time you write er a software programme erm and any of you will will have experience of this, it takes a long time to get it right. Once you've done it once it actually relatively easy for you to... improve it an an and getting it better in the next iteration, erm that is exactly the situation you've got here. G E C, leader of the team, had done something like this before, not quite the same but something like it before, but their partners haven't so there's a training process to be, to be done. Hang on can I stop you. G E C were the leader of the team. Yes. And that's right, they did the software on the experimental aircraft programme. Yes. But the lead company was specifying it was er Deutsch Aerospace. Correct. Why, when G E C had all the... expertise to do this and Deutsch Aerospace frankly, does not have a great deal of background in this. Yes well, for the experimental aircraft programme British Aerospace specified what G E C had to do and er a a this time, if you like, Deutsch Aerospace has taken on the equivalent role that B A E had for the experimental aircraft programme... and er Deutsch Aerospace are not without experience in flight controls they have. They didn't say that an and but they in this particular area, remember this isn't fly by wire, this is fly by light. You're dealing with a lot more information... er and much more complex switching arrangements so... I think Deutsch Aerospace had any experience in that at all did they? They have been er working with the North American Rockwell company on the X thirty one programme. Which is comparable complexity... and er they have picked up considerable experience from that but, you know, I don't wish here in this committee to in any way challenge the er capabilities or the competence of erm, of Deutsch Aerospace to undertake I'm not this role. I'm not, I'm not doing that, what I'm challenging is the consortiums decision to award the contract to a company who had not been involved in that particular area as opposed to a company that had. Was this purely er the result of trying to keep the percentage share? Erm, yes... that is... more or less the case. So beca so because we keeping the percentage share, trying to keep the percentage share down, the aircraft... is two years late and two hundred million pounds more expensive. No... no... let me... please finish my original statement.... The initial allocation of system design responsibility was negotiated between the four aircraft companies, Deutsch Aerospace, British Aerospace, Carsa and Allenia and... against the background of an M O U which said we must share the technology on this project between the four nations and in a particular way which... ensures that each of the nations... has got access to all the high technology aspects of the project er therefore... the individual companies identified those areas of the project, were... they felt they either could lead best or wish to lead and for the United Kingdom British Aerospace erm... identified the avionics system integration as the major complex task that they would take responsibility for. Deutsch Aerospace... took the flight control system. Allenia the utility control system er Carsa,the communications system and so on. So there was that allocation of system design responsibility right at the outset and that determined who would write the specification for what. We then went a stage further and to share the technology established joint teams... for each of these major areas, so that er the specification while it was under Dasa's leadership, it was actually done by a joint team which involved expertise from British Aerospace and the other three... and er therefore at that time... the whole Eurofighter consortium was confident that they were making the best use of the available expertise across the four partner companies, each bringing to the table, their own so that they could go forward on a confident basis. Now er... sure the programme has been delayed for all the reasons I I've mentioned. One of the reasons er with the benefit of hindsight, er was that we underprovided test equipment... er as you you have mentioned we have software being written in four nations... and er it's got to be assembled, somewhere. Each of those four nations er really ought to test the software pretty thoroughly before they hand it over... but because er we couldn't afford... four lots of test equipment... we said right, ship your software out, in... tested to only a modest level and it'll all be tested centrally in the Deutsch Aerospace facility. Now that has led to many iterations in the software design and development as the programme has rolled forward because every time you find a mistake, it's gotta go back along the whole test route. For the future of course, we have now... erm negotiated with Eurofighter a rather better arrangement, they're setting up a joint team, they're trying to do all the work in one place and they really are now making a lot of progress. So I think the the Eurofighter team has learned from the mistakes that were made originally in the allocation of the work and the way in which it was handled and they are now putting it right. I'm sorry that it's taken so long. That has been the main probem problem with the delay, can you... confirm that erm... assuming the the software is er... is actually rated flight safe er that there are other stages yet, we've still got to integrate the weapons systems, sensors and everything else. So that's all got to happen and can we expect that the improvements that have been made now to the syst to the management of this process... will not... give rise to the same delays that occurred in getting this system flight safe. Erm... I am confident that Eurofighter are grasping the thorny problem now in a very businesslike way and er are making... the individual partner companies fully accountable for the systems for which they have design responsibility and this again is a aspect of the renegotiation of the contract which we think is very important and we're determined that er... this will happen. And who's bearing the cost of the delay, the two hundred million? Er, for the most part, industry,... er we have refused to pay... additional costs at the government level which arise as a result of the slip er... induced by industry's own er causes. Could we move on to the constant frequency generator problems... er how much do by this? Erm... the constant frequency generator... is not actually delaying the first flight, the, the first aircraft will not have a constant frequency generator on board it. We will introduce the constant frequency generator at prototype number four. Er, the... this generator er ran into some development difficulties... er a while ago and er Eurofighter... chose, say I say, a a standby or an alternative generator which is suitable for the first three prototypes and er again the cost of that particular delay will fall to industry. That's fine. You've told that in your written submission, that supply for the infra-red er infra-red sa er search and track was changed, why? The original supplier er withdrew all his guarantees about the performance of the detector, or indeed his commitment to the delivery schedules, shortly after we had er... placed the development contract with the consortium... and er the consortium recognised that it could not live with that situation... and immediately set to work to find an alternative supplier. They have found one who is prepared to give the guarantees, who is delivering the detector, the detector that is on offer by er... sheer good fortune,i is actually now better than the one which erm the consortium had chosen originally. So the bankruptcy of the original supplier was nothing to do with the delay or actually going for another supplier? Wasn't, it wasn't that supplier than went bankrupt, that was another case. We have a, we have a second problem on the infra-red search and track consortium that one of the... team members has erm unfortunately hit some financial problems. Have these six specifications for the defences aid subsystems been relaxed? No. Thank you. coming back to the the I R S T supplier. Who does the checking out on the central... people who we may place contracts with? Erm... the... selection er er of er suppliers for the infra-red search and track... w that was... performed in the first instance by Eurofighter and the procurement organisations are the four Eurofighter partner companies make the checks on the potential suppliers in accordance with a schedule which we, the four governments, have provided to them. So they're carrying out the checks initially on the... the capabilities and the financial soundness of the, of the... proposed supplier. The this problem with the detector, it's another level of subcontracting down... and er... if you you're buying a piece of equipment of this kind from a... a consortium... er essentially you can't dictate to him precisely who he's going to use to supply the components for that system and er it is... the problem came to the notice of officials when the consortium came forward and and said look, we we've got these terms in our contract er concerning... detection range and so on and er we may not be able to meet those, er so we questioned the reasons and... then of course they revealed that they were having problems with the supplier. Er, they were immediately told to go away and put that right and they chose a different supplier. Erm, thank you. Can we now move on, have a look at the production phase last weeks. Yes... er on the production phase, can I ask a very general question... erm are you satisfied every... one of the participants is now totally locked in. Sorry, every one of the? Are the participants totally locked in to the... the production of er... Eurofighter? Erm,... we have er frequent conversations with the other governments at an official level and all the information that we have... erm is that the four governments are contending to proceed with the... D I and the production phases in the same time scale that I have quoted to the committee today. They last gave that assurance at the Secretary of State level on the tenth of December ninety two... and that was a clear assurance given at that time, that each government has a firm intention to proceed with the next phase of the programme. And, to the best of our knowledge, that is still valid though er of course to answer the second part of your question, are they fully locked in. None of us are lock in to this P I and production phases, we will not be locked in until we sign the memorandum of understanding for those phases and that is... scheduled for nineteen ninety five. Because er each of the governments er has the domestic political problem and er... each government, including our own, is not guaranteed to survive until... until the final production stage. Yes Er, so do you you, at a... civil service level, as you you are reasonably satisfied all is being done to guarantee we reach the production stage. Yes I am satisfied. On on er on production erm before the costs reductions had been identified, industry had said that the cost of production would actually increase, could I ask by how much it was said it would increase? Er, yes I will invite Mr Perry to address the question of cost. [Perry:] I... think that erm the actual position er assured was that... industry gave us a quotation in erm April nineteen ninety two which actually was somewhat higher than we'd anticipated, but I'm not sure that industry reyu viewed it as an increase because it was probably the first time they had formally quoted a price. Er, however erm... because of the concern about er the overall cost of the programme and the production cost... in nineteen ninety two, we required er the companies to undertake studies into ways of reducing the programme cost and it was as a result of those studies, that they came up with a list of potential savings er which in the U K case er could knock fourteen percent off... the price that they had quoted in April ninety two. [speaker001:] W was the increase er entirely offset by the cost reductions? [Perry:] Erm... I I think it is true to say that the, the cost er reduction which they offered brought the price back within... what we regarded as the affordability within our defence programme, er the level of affordability. [speaker001:] Okay, and one of the cost saving measures er is a more efficient work share ar arrangement, can you give some examples? [Perry:] Well in in general er the original work plan had divided up the production work to share out the technology and... this meant that components were being shipped around more than actually they they needed to be or that was economic and it was found that there was the potential to concentrate manufacturers sub-assemblies for each of the major components of the aircraft and subsequently assemble the major components in one country rather than several. For instance, components of the wings were being shipped around between countries, which clearly was not economic. [speaker001:] So wh what what changes are being planned then for the er production of the wings? Perhaps I can pick that one up. understand there's some overlap between the U K and Spain on er on that. There, there is... er certainly in the development... batch aircraft, er an overlap there... er and the three companies... were involved in the manufacture of the wings. Now there are only two wings on the aircraft and clearly that is not very efficient. [LAUGHTER] So we suggested that for the production phase it might be better if one company was to build one wing and the other company the other... er and that's. the third wing. Well yes er, we hadn't thought of that one Mr but maybe we should... do that. Er, so i it's er changes of that kind that have been looked at because if you move production work out of one nation into the other to get a nice rationalised allocation of work, you build this wing, you build that wing and so on, you then have got to do something with the minor components to get back to you original erm... work share allocation and percentage times. Now we won't know what that work share allocation in percentage terms is, until each nation makes its commitment in nineteen ninety five, to a production buy... and that is the time when we will finalised the details of this work share transfer plan. What about the radar, I understand er it takes three hundred days to produce and a hundred days... er is believed to be taken up in travelling from... one site to another. Yeah, that er little anecdote I I've heard mentioned previously, er the... the ray dome... erm... is erm er currently in the course of development and of course the the four nations each wish to participate in this interesting piece of technology. So the consortium that was doing the development arranged the work between themselves in a way which they... themselves considered to be efficient. As it's turned out, it's not efficient because the the ray dome spent a tremendous amount of time moving from one country to the other, there's no doubt about that... and before production we would want to see that particular nonsense removed and the whole thing made a lot more efficient, but for one or two development batch ray domes then you know, they'll just have to learn from that lesson. Savings were also intended from what has been described as other productivity improvements. Can you... amplify on that please? Erm... I I think it's difficult to quote examples off the cuff here... er the... er British Aerospace for example, I know that erm... er the company has planned to introduce cellular manufacturing techniques for some components which will reduce the number of man hours that are devoted to the manufacture of that item an and given a level of throughput will do the job a lot more efficiently. That's the the only example I can... recall off the top of my head. British Aerospace moves completely to Germany... er... a a third savings measure erm will be er from economies in logistics support, can you perhaps Yes. comment on that. Er, yes in the studies in nineteen ninety two er Eurofighter suggested that there could be reductions in the holdings of spares, rolled equipment and support items as a result of the more accurate forecasting which we expect to emerge from the logistics support analysis. So if group captain White has already given you an example... of the reduction we've made in in some of our... er... scalings of those equipment, er it was also suggested by the contractors that economies could be achieved by reducing the number of bases, the extent to which all squadrons should be fully multi role equipped and by contractualising more of the second and third line support, erm, we and the other partners are still considering these proposals in detail er and haven't actually taken decisions yet but there are certainly some possibilities in that area for er economies against the original cost estimate. Yes and the savings are planned er from keener equipment pricing, er how, can you explain, how can this be achieved. Well Will it be through greater competition? The quotations which Eurofighter provided er in nineteen ninety two were based on the equipment option prices which are included in each of the equipment development contracts. Er, they believe er that it will be possible to improve on those prices in negotiation with the suppliers. Perhaps I I might amplify that a little. In that erm just as we've discussed the allocation of work on the airframe between the four nations on m most pieces of equipment there is a an allocation between the four nations and er in in many cases... a consortium with the same members has actually won the competitions on five or six different pieces of equipment. So we're trying to encourage the equipment suppliers now to look again at what they have won on business for Eurofighter and perhaps allocate the work between themselves a lot more efficiently so that instead of each one of the four members building a given percentage of the five items, they say right we'll take this one, all of it and we'll build all of it, you take that one, all of it and build that one and so on an and in that way we might be able to er... er improve considerably on the... costs of production. Thank you er ooh. When one goes for a major adventure like tornado you hope that most of the difficulties are are ironed out, clearly... they're not, another set of difficulties emerges. With the benefit of hindsight er could the tornado programme have been made more... efficient with the lessons that you've learnt so far, er from er Eurofighter an and secondly, perhaps more... difficult, er the lessons you have learned from tornado and certainly from the current project, could they be transferred to other complicated collaborative er project, programmes like cobra and? Erm, well I I couldn't speak for the latter two programmes cos I don't know enough about the arrangements there but I have got a a fair amount of knowledge on both tornado and Eurofighter. The tornado aircraft was developed... under a cost plus environment... er contracting environment and... erm at the time... that was actually the most efficient an and probably the only practical way to do because the the risks inherent in having three partner companies that don't know how the others work, getting together to build a single aircraft, were, were extremely high. So we proceeded on a cost plus basis, also... the... cost plus environment... actually... brings the partners together because if there are three of us working on a cost plus contract and I have a problem, my two partners rush to help me because clearly... there's some more profit for them, erm... if... the only difficulty with cost plus contract of course is that unless you have a a real... ceiling on the total er costs that you're going to pay, it may keep on rising far higher than you'd ever imagined. Now on tornado the development costs erm I know, exceeded the original expectation by quite a considerable margin but the production costs were much less and overall, taking the two... lots together, it turned out to be a good buy. Er, so the lesson we learned from tornado was that we want to try and cap our financial liabilities for the project... for the development of it, at a much earlier stage and er drive as tough a commercial bargain as we possibly can. So we embarked on a different commercial strategy, trying to implement that that lesson. It has had... considerable benefits, it's had one or two... drawbacks... and er I think the biggest lesson that we have probably learned so far from the Eurofighter programme, is that we have to be very careful when we make work sharing agreements in future, that er we don't... try to drive the work sharing requirement down to too low a level. If we can keep it in broad percentage terms of the total work at the project level, fine, that can be done, efficiently and effectively. But if you say we must share every piece of equipment in those ratios, then you do create management difficulties and the potential for delay... and and indeed... that can in turn add to costs. So those are the two lessons. Thank you Sir Nicholas. [Nicholas:] [clears throat] Er, I'm I'm very concerned about... the question of these costs.... Er, obviously any Ministry of Defence... er er contract is a soft touch as regarded by the supplier.... You have limited er suppliers who you choose... er... having heard the figures that you've given us today... erm i it seems to me that there is very little control of that expenditure. Now, when you are entering into a contract, and I wonder if you could send this to the to the chairman... er your letter... er of... erm contract because to have a contract which can be varied in its cost always upwards... is a very dangerous contract and I would interested to see... the contract that is supplied which does not control price. [Gordon:] Erm... obviously we can er... prepare a note for the committee setting out the main features in what I would call our commercial strategy. Erm I would hesitate before offering the chairman or the committee the contract, er the contract for Eurofighter actually... runs to thirty four books and it stands about that high and er. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Nicholas:] Well just send the financial section. [Gordon:] And that is probably about... thirty percent of it.... But erm it is a subject which is er... investigated every year by five teams of auditors. We have a team from each of the four nations and we have a team from NATO. [Nicholas:] Erm Mr Gordon, given the fact that we are running a little short of time I think if you could give us a note on your contractual arrangements then that will take this matter forward and we come back to you if necessary. [Gordon:] I'd be pleased to do so Mr Nicholas. [Nicholas:] Thank you very much erm I have one last question on this item... er that I've now lost... oh yes it was a... erm Mr Perry, you mentioned under the logistics savings that were possible er the potential cut back in R A F bases. I think we've only got four which er this aircraft can fly or for the moment the three tornado F three bases and the one jaguar base... er is the ministry says they're looking at cutting back on those? [speaker001:] I think er we're in danger of perhaps getting a misunderstanding going here. What we have been talking about in economies and logistics support is reducing the amount of second line... base facilities for this aeroplane. How ever many bases the Royal Air Force decides to operate from is a decision which the Royal Air Force can take in due course. But erm the... logistics costs are made up from the costs of... procuring spares and support equipment largely and er... for an aircraft such as this, the amount of equipment required to operate at first line is very low indeed.... To maintain the equipment at second line requires quite extensive test equipment and facilities. However in this aircraft we have specified a very high degree of re reliability... and if you look at the total number of occurrences for each piece of equipment that are going to require maintenance, it's so low that it doesn't justify the provision of maintenance facilities on every base. So what has been suggested is that er we examine the possibility of centralising the second line facilities that are normally provided on every base and only do that at perhaps two bases. I see thank you, yes that's very helpful that clarifies the position on that... and finally I'll ask Michael Colgan to take us into the question of the management systems for the contract. [Michael:] Yes er Mr Chairman we have, at the moment, two intergovernmental management agencies involved in the same building in. First of all we've got N A M A managing the tri-national tornado product project and then we've got N E F M A er handing the er Eurofighter, same notions as the division of Spain. You were talking earlier about er applying the lessons learned here from the tornado programme to Eurofighter, surely the best way of doing so is to involve the same people, they're in the same building. What are the difficulties about amalgamating these two management agencies and just having the one. It might also... assist in work share and offset because perhaps if... things were getting out of balance on Eurofighter you could actually use the tornado pruject, project and get a greater balance. Far more flexibility surely. [speaker001:] Erm... well could I deal with the management agency question first an an then perhaps I'll invite Mr Perry to speak on the difficulties in trying to equalise work share of one project with trying to counterbalance on another.... The... erm management agency that was set up for tornado was structured and manned for that specific task. When we started the Eurofighter programme, we did look at the possibility of expanding N A M A so that it could also conduct the management of the the Eurofighter project.... erm... One of our buyers, Spain, er... was not in favour of that solution... because they were not a member of the tornado team and they did not want to see some kind of old boys club er running this project which was very important to them. So it was agreed, right in the beginning... that we would establish a separate... agency to manage the Eurofighter two thousand programme, but that we would look at the possibility of bringing these two agencies together... at... as early as possible time and the most expedient way for all concerned. So we have followed that plan and in nineteen ninety we conducted a study as to exactly how this could be done, a er an integrated agency management structure was devised and a plan was er produced which would have resulted in the two agencies merging... at the beginning of this year at the start of the what was then planned the D I phase.... Er unfortunately the the problems... which occurred in nineteen ninety two with the threat of German withdrawals from the Eurofighter two thousand project put a complete stop on the plans to merge the two agencies. Is it still intended it happen. Yes it is. Before the production phase? It is intended and er all four sets of government officials are resolved to integrate the two agencies in time for the commencement of the P I production phases. So that we will then be operating with a single agency covering both projects. And on the work share. Work share for I think that... the idea of offsetting imbalances on on one project er... with transfer the work in other is certainly very interesting but of course as far as the erm... tornado programme is concerned I think it it is now really far too late because production is over apart from the the second Saudi Arabian order and we are really only working on the manufacture of spares and... given that the existing suppliers are all tooled up for those and indeed her are way down the learning curve having produced vast quantities of them, it really wouldn't be economic to transfer any of that work now I don't think. Thank you. Thank you Michael. I think that er... what we will do now gentlemen is go into closed session so I will suspend the sitting er while the present public leave us... er so the sitting is now.

[speaker001:] Right Mr Gordon I think the room is now as full as it can get so we'll kick off today's proceedings er could you start by introducing your team for the record. [Gordon:] Yes of course it will be a pleasure. I'm Jack Gordon, I'm Director General of aircraft one with the Ministry of Defence. I'm the Project Manager for the United Kingdom er for the Eurofighter two thousand project at the international level I also chair the N E F M O board of directors. On my left is Mr William Perry... who's the Director of Finance and Secretariat, air one in the procurement executive. On my right is Mr er Nick Evans who's the Head of Resources and Programmes Air and on my extreme right Group Captain Granville White who's Deputy Director, Operational Requirements air four. [speaker001:] Right thank you very much Mr Gordon. Er can I just say at the outset that some of the material we'll be covering this morning may well be classified. Yes. Er when you feel that you can't answer our questions in open session, if you could indicate that then we will go into closed session at the end of the morning and cover that ground in that way. Understood. Looking first of all then at the operational performance of the aircraft, you have told us already in written answers that in the light of the changed security situation you have relaxed the Eurofighter requirement. Can you tell us an indication of how much the changes reduce operational capability in percentage terms? [Gordon:] Erm well perhaps before I answer that question Mr Chairman, I could just briefly skim across the programme and bring you up to date as to where we are and then we'll go directly on to that point. [speaker001:] Very briefly would. [Gordon:] Yes, very brief. Er well the committee will recall that shortly after... it published its report in Spring ninety two, the new German Minister of Defence... questioned whether the project was still required at that degree of sophistication. For our part we had no doubt about the continuing need for an aircraft of Eurofighter two thousand's broad capabilities. This view was subsequently confirmed... by a thorough review of the operation requirement which was carried out under the direction of the four chiefs of defence staff. The review of the requirement and the options for meeting it er culminated in an agreement between the four ministers of defence in December ninety two to re-orientate er the project. We provided a note to the committee in January ninety three about this. Well, re-orientation of the project has involved a line by line review of the European staff requirement, the E S R D... to see whether it might be relaxed in the light of the changed international security situation. It also involves rescheduling the whole programme so that decisions on commitments to production can be deferred until nineteen ninety five, with first deliveries to United Kingdom and Italy occurring in the year two thousand and to er Spain and Germany in two thousand and two.... Work by the staffs in the four ministries of defence and by the NATO agency N A F M A to re-orientate the project in line with the minister's directions is now at an advance stage. The revised European staff requirement document has been signed now by the four chiefs of air staff, this was done last month. A revised schedule for the development programme... has now been agreed with industry and this will be taken into the contract. The four governments are also resolved to cap their financial liabilities for this programme.... So negotiations are in progress on revised prices for the development phase. These have taken somewhat longer than we anticipated but we are at last making good progress towards agreeing prices for the Eurojet contract and we are expecting to receive more acceptable price quotations from Eurofighter very shortly for their part of the work. The changes to the programme also require a new memorandum understanding with our partners. The draft for this is almost complete... but it can't be finalised until the costs of the revised programme have been agreed for each of the participating nations. All being well this new M O U will be ready for submission to ministers by the middle of this year.... Turning now to the development work itself... in general, the development work is going well. There have been no fundamental technical problems. There has been a very considerable delay to the first flight but this is now scheduled for April this year.... The delay has been due mainly to the need to be absolutely certain about the integrity of the flight control system software before the aircraft takes to the air.... While... the delay to the start of the flying programme has been much longer than anyone would wish, much more progress has been made in the ground and rig testing than at the comparable stage of any previous project I have been associated with... and we are very satisfied indeed with the results that have been obtained so far. There is assessment in the wind tunnels, for example, is complete and the results are good. The structural test programme... is also making extremely good progress and the results from the engine test programme are ex very encouraging indeed. The performance of the engine, on the bench, already meets its full specification for thrust and fuel efficiency and even it exceeds it slightly in some respects. So overall we remain very confident that the Eurofighter two thousand will meet the full operational requirement. So now turning to the point which er I think you asked us to address. Can we quantify, or explain, the areas in which we have made some relaxation and I'll ask Group Captain Granville White to answer that. [speaker001:] Well the specific question I asked is whether you've quantified in percentage terms... erm perhaps Group Captain you could give us an indication of how it has affected it? [White:] Yes certainly, yes. The point about er relaxations and what impact it would have on its combat capability. I think the important point I'd like to make at the outset is that when the review of the requirement was carried out it was carried out both nationally and on a four nation basis, the ministers, once that was complete, the ministers decided that and stated publicly in December ninety two, that... we will continue with the existing airframe and engine combination and that each nation er based on a family of aircraft concept could decide from a menu which equipments it would fit according to their individual requirements and their budget and... we looked individually at each of the items to see what impact it would have on the operational capability if we were to remove them and what erm was decided in the end and the requirement reflects this, was signed last month by the Chief Surveyor's staff, is that some nations have decided to remove certain items of equipment but for the U K we felt that it was necessary to keep all the major items and therefore as far as the U K is... erm impact on the operational requirement is concerned, there is no significant alteration in its operational capability and therefore in overall percentage terms there is no... decrease in the capability at all. Now individual nations who've decided... to do without a particular item of equipment, clearly that will be developed into the aircraft and therefore they have the option to... if they wish to d decide... later on to fit it in. [speaker001:] Thank you. I'll I think at least four particular areas where the United Kingdom has decided not to, as it were, take the full specification. Er, can we have a look at those or or at least, has accepted specific changes to those specifications. Can we have a look at... those four and if you could, I'd be grateful if you can tell me what change in the security situation, as envisaged by the government, has led to our acceptance of those changes. Now the first one, which was mentioned by the minister in the R A F debate, er is the reduced requirement to operate on damaged runways. What change of perception in the security situation has led to our accepting that diminution of capability. Yes the there are two aspects really to that, one is the length of runway operating... er and the other is the surface, erm, if I could take the first one. When the requirement was originally written erm and agreed in nineteen eighty seven... all of the nations decided that erm we required a short take off and landing capability and that was based on the... sort of the then cold war situation where the prospects of... runways and airfields being very severely damaged in a sort of central European type of scenario, and therefore the possibility that there might be only very small operating strips available from those runways and that was the basis for the particular length that was decided at the time. Because of the changed security situation and that type of er conflict not being envisaged in the same way now, what we felt was important was to be able to operate er apart from main operating bases, but also from sort of general purpose erm strips, flying clubs and those type of smaller airfields and therefore rather than looking at the damaged runway situation, we looked at the smaller strips and took a length that we could sensibly operate from... erm and took that as the yardstick but clearly... notwithstanding that, there is the prospect of damaged runways and therefore the slight relaxation would also apply to damaged runways but perhaps damaged to a lesser extent. I think perhaps if I just add a point to that er although we have as four nations... agreed on the revised requirement there, I believe it's true to say that development has progressed to such an extent that probably we will have the original requirement in practice, even though we've no longer specified it. That's very encouraging. [LAUGHTER] For no extra charge. Can we then look at the reduced engine thrust... erm this presumably would have a significant impact on combat performance, er why is there any change in the... security situation that would warrant such a a relaxation? [White:] Yes the particular item that was deleted was known as the combat override facility which erm was really a trade off erm... to provide extra thrust against the reduced life of the engine and clearly if one operates at the top end of the engine... spectrum in er... hotter conditions and higher er R P M then clearly the life of the engine will be reduced. Now we had originally had this extra facility available er so that we could trade off life against the extra thrust in an emergency but there was clearly the possibility erm that that might be used er when it really wasn't necessary and we would end up with extra... costs, extra life cycle costs, shorter engine life and it was felt on balance that with a reduced threat overall that it was sensible to take out that facility and to accept... a longer engine life, but not, there's no reduction in the total normal thrust but its merely its override combat facility. [speaker001:] I it doesn't speak very highly if I may say so Group Captain, for R A F discipline if what you're telling me and telling the committee that you think that pilots should be using this facility, would be using this facility when they're ordered not to. [White:] No I wasn't suggesting that Mr Chairman. [speaker001:] Well why would it be used in circumstances when it was not needed otherwise? [White:] I was only thinking really of erm... particularly extreme situations erm... and I would expect it to be used for example in normal training or anything like that and er certainly all the studies show that the normal thrust, full thrust that was available was sufficient to meet the threat and this extra capability really was a a sort of... an extra that was added in early on and really wasn't felt on any of the combat modelling to be necessary. [speaker001:] I think I would actually like to pursue that point Group Captain but I I think I'd rather pursue it in in the closed session than an open session. Now can we move on to the reduced quantities of role equipment. Can you tell us what... role equipment items have been deleted. [White:] Yes, it was not so much a deletion as er a reduction in the numbers because we were very mindful erm in... going through the requirement erm and not making significant changes as far as the U K was concerned and we needed to make some savings in cost if at all possible and therefore we carried out a very comprehensive review of all the items of role equipment such as drop tanks er pylons, explosive release units and those type of things which... had been... provisionally earmarked for a very high intensive and fairly long running conflict and it was felt that if we were to make some savings then it was a sensible balance to reduce those numbers on the basis that we could save some money in the programme but at the same time many of these items could be bought later on at relatively short notice, clearly not within a conflict but in the years to come. [speaker001:] on that point. Erm... as far as the drop tanks are concerned, does that have any impact on the range or are you just talking about the numbers that you will have spare? [White:] They're purely on on the numbers, the same er stand, the different sizes would still be available, there would merely be fewer of them in total stocks. [speaker001:] But would you envisage that the numbers er of aircraft actually kitted out with these things have been reduced... or are you talking about having spares in case they get lost or damaged? [White:] No the the very name, as the name implies, in many cases we would er jettison the drop tanks before entering combat and er therefore there is an agreed rate at which we would expect to use them so that they are a a usable stock in operations.... [speaker001:] and in training presumably... do you drop them in training or do you not? [White:] No, not normally, no. [speaker001:] So it's only operational. [White:] Yes. [speaker001:] And can you give an indication of how quickly these things could be ordered... in an emergency? [Gordon:] Perhaps I can take that one er Group Captain. Once the... erm drop tanks have been developed and have entered production... in most of the lead time one associates with providing a capability has er has actually been avoided so we could re-order probably within a year. [speaker001:] Very reassuring Mr Gordon, I, we're not necessarily gonna have a year's warning that that we're going to need these aircraft in the event of war. [Gordon:] Well, that of course er may be true but er... as the Group Captain has has said here in the reduced... er... spec position which we now face and judgement was taken as to how much we should invest in stocks of reserve drop tanks at this point and the option exists to order more. [speaker001:] Can I ask it's absolutely meaningless to me, do you mean a month, three months, nine months, eleven months, eleven and a half months, what do you mean? [Gordon:] No what I mean is that er... once the item is in production... if you wish to order another hundred drop tanks or another thousand drop tanks... if you make that order then approximately one year later you would receive deliveries of those tanks against that order. Now that would be the normal peacetime lead time if we could... accelerate that in industry and find some way of doing it then it may well be possible to do in quicker time than that. [speaker001:] So in approximately one year you might be fourteen months or fifteen months? [Gordon:] I... I'm er quoting a hypothetical situation here that we have entered production with er production line for drop tanks maybe producing two, three thousand tanks against a projected usage for the next ten years and sometime during that period we decide you want to order an additional thousand tanks... two thousand tanks then you could adjust the rate at which the deliveries occur, you could adjust the the the total quantity and with about a years notice industry can get in the materials and produce the goods for you. Does that answer your question? [speaker001:] If er there was a crisis and there was a need for a rush order... er one would be talking of... weeks for something that is predesigned to start coming off the production line. [Gordon:] experience during the Falklands war and during Gulf war indicated that once an item was in production... tremendous acceleration is possible in the real war situation. [speaker001:] Yes. [Gordon:] I was discussing a year for a normal peacetime lead time. [speaker001:] Presumably drop tanks aren't... lost very often in peace time, it's operations that you've actually jettisoned, is that right? [Gordon:] That is absolutely right, correct. [speaker001:] Bruce George. [Bruce:] [clears throat] Thank you,i do you feel a little uneasy at changing operational requirements based on er... an assessment of a threat in nineteen ninety two, ninety three, which I presume would have to remain valid until two thousand and twenty. So how confident are you that potential adversaries will not have the capability in two thousand and twenty to make a mess of our runways as the Soviets would have done during the er the cold war? Erm I'm asking this question to e satisfy myself that these changes and reduction in costs are not the result of political expediency as opposed to er a genuine... assessment of what the risk in the change environment is likely to be. [speaker001:] fine.... That is precisely the background to the study which was conducted by the four chiefs of defence staff, they were asking that kind of question and I'll now ask the Group Captain to respond. [White:] Yes er I think perhaps the point I'd like to emphasis is that the increase er in runway length is really quite a modest one... er and therefore it hasn't had an enormous impact. Well... the answer is yes but of course landing and taking off on a road is one thing, being able to operate is another one because clearly one needs er fuel, weapons, ground crew and the like but landing on a road in itself is is not difficult. [speaker001:] Peter [Peter:] My I move to er questions about the er comparison between the erm Eurofighter and other... fighters it might find itself in combat with. [speaker001:] Well Peter I'm sorry but the notice only said once, Winston is meant to lead us into that I'm sorry. [Peter:] Right I'm sorry. [speaker001:] Winston Churchill. When you updated er the combat analysis using the latest data on Eurofighter... did you again compare er Eurofighter with alternatives such as an updated F sixteen or F fifteen er previous combat modelling showed that an alternative aircraft er... apart from the F twenty two, did not approach the capability of Eurofighter. Did the latest modelling confirm this and what is the next best alternative in terms of capability. Right, Group Captain Granville White. [White:] Yes wh when they reported to the committee two years ago erm I explained that there was combat modelling going on at at the time and indeed that was completed by the end of nineteen ninety two and it showed... that er of all the alternatives available then Eurofighter two thousand was the most cost effective solution to the R A F's requirements and yet it would it would not be able to meet up er to the F twenty two but other than that it was superior to all other aircraft. At the moment erm... because of the extra time we've got available because production investment has been delayed because of ministerial decisions, we've set in train three further studies and they will look collectively at alternatives, comparison in combat modelling and also in the numbers... and if I could describe those three very briefly because I think they're the they're relevant to what we're talking about. The... the two, initially there are two studies which will look into numbers, one of those is a top downs study which is based on scenarios and will look at erm a variety of different situations around the world from an analytical point of view. The second one is erm a bottom up study which is based on today's commitments but projecting them forward into the timescale in which we will have the aircraft and looking in that way to see how many and and in what way we would need them. The third one focusing in specifically on the combat modelling is what is known as a C O E I A which is a combined operational effectiveness and investment appraisal and this work is being carried out at Farnborough and we're comparing in single roles and multi-role Eurofighter two thousand against different aircraft. So for example, in the specialist air defence er side we're looking... at alternatives would be the F twenty two... erm the current tornado F three and also an upgraded variant of the F three. In the ground attack side we're comparing it to the jaguar that it'll replace, the harrier G R seven and also the tornado G R four and then in the multi-role arena for air defence, air superiority and attack we're comparing our aircraft against the French Raphall the American F eighteen E which is the the future variant of the F eighteen, the F fifteen E, the multi-role... but primarily air to surface machine and also the F sixteen C. Those are the ones we're currently looking at. [speaker001:] As the cost of... Eurofighter increases does there come a point where like the F twenty two i it becomes unaffordable and by how much would the performance of Eurofighter have to be degraded before it becomes equivalent to the nearest alternative? [White:] I wonder if I could answer that in a in a different way because clearly rather there's the option, rather than reduction the operational capability which was really the er... initiative that had begun in nineteen ninety two, there is the option of course of er adjusting the total numbers and that would er have an overall bearing on the total programme cost but cert because certainly the judgement of the er... the chiefs of staff was that er as far as the U K was concerned then we we should retain the operational capability as I explained earlier an n and not decrease it in any significant extent because if we did that then we could end up er with an inferior capability against a potential threat. During the last year erm when we were working on the requirement, we carried out a number of erm comparisons descoping or aircraft in various respects. For example taking out the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track, taking out the the M I D S, the multiple information distribution system and certain aspects of the er defensive aids, to see what impact that would have and we found that if we removed any one of those... erm then we would either come down to parity against potential threat or possibly er inferiority and that was really the supporting evidence to retain the full capability. [speaker001:] But Group Captain are you saying that as er a platform it has not been degraded at all, there's basically no change in thrust, in turn rate or... in airframe G loading? [White:] Yes, that's correct. [speaker001:] Thank you. Peter was your question answered or not? [Peter:] No in the air superiority role I didn't hear a comparison with the S U thirty five or the Fulcrum M E twenty nine S er are there any other aircraft of er perhaps comparable capacity with which you did not compare Eurofighter? [White:] What we've done,won one of the points I think... that is worth er making perhaps is that on er over the last few years we've seen a complete change in world export philosophy where not only are the Russians exporting all over the place but clearly... er there are a number of western aircraft in different parts of the world and therefore what we have also done is to, in comparing... er our aircraft against other western ones, we've also looked at them... as potential threats because it's possible that er... erm western aircraft in certain hands could end up being used against us so we have also compared those. [Peter:] But the question that young pilots would want... to know the answer to is this, erm are there aircraft anywhere in the world with which you have not made a comparison in terms of air superiority? [White:] No, there are none. [Peter:] So you have compared with the And the S U? [White:] Yes we've compared with everything and specifically the ones you've mentioned, the S U... thirty five and the... which is an upgraded S U twenty seven and the M I G twenty nine S, yes we've specifically compared against those two. [Peter:] And you've been reassured by the responses? [White:] Yes. [Peter:] Thank you Chairman. [speaker001:] Thank you, Michael Colgan [Michael:] Yes Mr Chairman I'm not clear... erm about something that Mr Gordon said in his opening remarks that I'd like clarified and that is that he... gave the committee the impression that there were... er certain of the... of the partners... that were accepting... erm a lower specification in other words, omitting... from the... what is the British best if you like, erm certain items of of equipment in order to reduce cost of the aircraft, both in development stage and at the production stage, final cost of the aircraft, unit cost. Erm... we asked the question about [clears throat]... the aircraft's reduced operational capabilities as far as Britain is concerned, we were told that there was no reduction, erm... there was no percentage figure that could be produced but w now what about the other countries, I mean, which countries are asking for what to be omitted... and... by how much is the percentage, in percentage terms er is the performance of the aircraft reduced in those cases and further on from that, picking up something that that Wing Com er Group Captain Granville White has just mentioned which i is the question of sales. [speaker001:] Yes. [Michael:] Erm... it does obviously have a bearing on sales to the third countries... when the er aircraft is in production.... Do I get the impression that we're basically building a... a basic aircraft... with optional extras, or are we building an aircraft which can be, to some degree, sanitised because obviously there are... some parts of the specification of the aircraft we may not wish third cra countries to have. It's a well known fact that aircraft are sold all around the world, this can have... a bearing on the... capability and also... a bearing on their cost and therefore... saleability. Perhaps, from those remarks, it's hardly a question but perhaps you could just clarify [White:] Yes. [Michael:] my er thinking on on the... on what you said in opening remarks which don't make it clear to me... whether we've got a basic aircraft with optional extras or a fully specified aircraft from which we can dat deleted certain items of equipment. [Gordon:] Erm, well... I think I can reassure that it is the latter. The development programme for the aircraft will provide... the broad range of capabilities which was asked for by all four nations originally and er the fact that one or more nations may have deleted its requirement for a particular facility doesn't remove the need for us to complete the development work... er because we still have at least one or two customers for that facility. So it's definitely the latter, we are developing a fully capable Eurofighter two thousand aircraft... and... if erm... any of our four participating nations do not want a particular facility then we will make provision for them to leave that out in production... and if an export customer does not require the full range of capabilities we can also remove them for that export customer. [speaker001:] But by how much could we degrade the aircraft and still be capable of... erm competing with erm other aircraft in in the market? [Gordon:] Well I I I would prefer to perhaps follow this one up in the closed session later but erm. [speaker001:] we we'll pursue that er in private. Neville Trotter. [Neville:] going to go into service in the next century, it's going to be around till well into the next century. Very briefly what would it do that the present generation of aircraft won't, how is it a quantum leap ahead? [Gordon:] Fine, I will again invite the the Group Captain to answer that. [White:] Perhaps I could er answer that in er... I think there are... probably four points that er come out to my mind... erm... the first one in the airframe engine combination, a very high degree of agility. The ability to be able to pull nine G which is er generally accepted to be the physiological limit for pilots, which is more than any of our aircraft can. [Neville:] What can we do now by contrast? [White:] Er, none of our aircraft can pull more than seven G, normal aircraft. [Gordon:] There's also a close correlation by not just the... erm the size of the number for G, but how long can it go on pulling that G given the thrust and the aerodynamic capabilities of the machine... and we are essentially building this aircraft so that it can sustain nine G... and we are providing the pilot with the sort of equipment he requires to be able to survive in that kind of environment. [Neville:] Is this for a dog fight? [White:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] . [Gordon:] Th it has er a considerable negative G capability as well. [speaker001:] Would it be able, er pulling that erm G... to compete with the with the harrier using the technique? [Gordon:] Erm Group Captain Granville White. [White:] The simple answer is yes. Er so I think the first of my four points is the is the airframe agility, clearly the the ability to m manoeuvre. The second erm... is is and perhaps is related in a way... er in the air to air weapons where... erm... in older missiles have had... what is known as sort of bore sight capability where they go in the direction of the aircraft. Clearly to have the combination of an off bore sight capability for a... a missile such as A S R A A M, the er advance short range air to air missile, the combination of the agility of the weapon and the flat platform together has been shown to be really needed, you can't have one without the other and that somebody who has only agility in the aircraft or agility in the in the weapon, will lose against somebody who has it in both. So I think that's the... probably the sort of related point. Moving on into the sort of sensors and the electronics side, erm... for survivability... erm... the defensive aid sub- system will be... er very complex, very sophisticated but also integrated so that it has a complete system of protection for the aircraft, erm... an and... finally moving on on the sort of electronics side then clearly with different sensors such as the radar, the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track... the er multiple information distribution system and also certain aspects of the er... electronic warfare suite then by having sensor fusion which enables the best information at any one time to be... correlated into the system as a whole then that will provide a very... good capability and far in excess of anything that we have at the moment. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. I'll ask Campbell to take us on into the question of the role of this aircraft. [Campbell:] We understand that some new weapons, not previously in the specification, are to be included. Are you able to tell us in open session what sort of weapons are envisaged? [Gordon:] Erm perhaps I can... invite my colleague from the... office of management and budgets to... speak to that one. [speaker001:] Erm chairman yes we hope to [clears throat] to erm, excuse me, to erm that E four will be capable of... er sorry E F two thousand will be capable of handling all our... erm planned weapons er which are already in our programme... the er... conventional er, the C A S O M, the conventionally armed, stand-off missile, the er anti- armour missile er twelve thirty eight and the future medium range air-to-air missile... er whatever that happens to be er as a result of er competition. [Campbell:] What about the low level laser guided bomb, is that also included in this? [speaker001:] Yes it is. [Campbell:] Erm... does the fact of erm... using the aircraft to er provide a platform for these systems, er tell us something about... a change in view about the role or operating concept of the aircraft? [Gordon:] Erm Group Captain Granville White. [White:] thank you Erm... not not change erm... with envisagement. [Campbell:] Widen [White:] Wi certainly broaden, we've we've envisaged from the outset that the aircraft would be... both will be multi- role capable and that erm all... that the primary design driver will be the air-to-air air superiority role but the air-to-surface role would be almost an equal, clearly one has to have a a prioritisation and those particular weapons in the air-to-surface side, the conventional armed stand off missile along the low level er low level laser guided bomb and the future anti armour weapon, they clearly erm... really take the weaponeering side into the next century. We will still have the ability... to carry today's weapons such as the... the L seven five five cluster bomb unit, the thousand pound bomb... erm and the C R V seven rocket and things like that but clearly as we move forward into the century it's important that as the... platform progresses then so does the aircraft. [Campbell:] Are the any weapons er which the aircraft er would not be able to, for example the J P two three three closely associated with the tornado, er is that a system which you would anticipate... Eurofighter two thousand to be able to carry? [White:] No, it it's too large and too heavy and really that is a different role that's more the role for the... tornado G L one, G L four. [Campbell:] And I think you mentioned thousand pounds bombs. [White:] Yes. [Campbell:] Is that the, is that the limit... could anything heavier than that [White:] It's, no it's not the limit er the limit of weight, it can carry er heavier ones. [Campbell:] You may not wish to say in open session. [White:] I think probably as you. [Campbell:] in closed session. [White:] Yes, it's probably more appropriate. [Campbell:] Erm I was rather interested by the comparisons which you explained a little earlier in the evidence... erm... if you've got an aircraft which is er going to replace, as I understand it the Jaguar and the Phantom which has already been retired,... er against which you've been comparing the F three er and the G R four... of the tornados and the harriers, then er that gives rise in my mind to the possibility that this is an aircraft which might replace all of these, in which case will that have consequences for the still... er publicly declared intention to order two hundred and fifty, might we order more for example? [speaker001:] Mr Evans. [Evans:] Erm... as you say Mr Campbell er the plan at the moment is that the F two thousand will replace jaguar and the tornado A D V F three aircraft and the scope er of replacing other aircraft er remains under consideration, er provisional off take of two fifty er was declared at the d the start of the development phase and of course our work share in development is based on that number. Before we seek authorisation for the production phase, it will be necessary for each nation to restate or modify it's planned off take and that will be done very firmly on the basis of the studies which er Group Captain Granville White has already d described which will... factor in er... against our military tasks, which is,y you know we define now fairly clearly, er exactly what aircraft are needed to undertake those tasks in what scenarios... and in the future... er as you say, there may well be scope for er adding additional aircraft types to that. [speaker001:] Well I think I... understand that answer to be an affirmative, that if... this aircraft is capable of replacing, if you like, the suite of aircraft we've been discussing, then er that may well result in orders for more than two hundred fifty. [Evans:] It could do because obviously there are a number of other considerations, not least affordability er within the defence programme which erm from my point of view is a very important consideration. [Campbell:] But of course if one wants to continue to have the capability into the next century, which the present er range of aircraft provides, er... then Eurofighter two thousand may be the only available platform for those purposes. [Evans:] Indeed and I think the er the point about Eurofighter is that it's a very flexible er aircraft, it's a multi-role aircraft, it's a cost effective aircraft and therefore it er, as you say, may well be able to cover quite a large spectrum. [Campbell:] Can I ask you about er the medium range surface to air missile because er, you won't be surprised to learn, that er the committee's received a number of... submissions [LAUGHTER] on this matter [] er which suggest that er... er t to proceed with Eurofighter two thousand without the medium range surface to air missile er... I mean to be put rather bluntly to us, that it makes little sense to proceed with the aircraft without a replacement for blood hound. What's your response to that? [Gordon:] Well I think perhaps I can start that and the Group Captain may want to come in.... Er I think our position is that we provide as you know, air defence through a layered system er of air defence aircraft and missiles... and the simple truth is that in the light of the changes in the strategic... er setting, particularly er as it affects U K air defence, we have decided that the provision of a medium defensive layer, that is the M sound system to which you refer, is not a high priority at the moment and the programme is therefore being postponed and I have to emphasise it's not been abandoned. [Campbell:] Well erm if I were then to ask you when... what was your best estimate to when the programme... was likely to be commenced. I fancy you would not be able to give me any more precise an answer than one you've just given, isn't that right? [Gordon:] Well programmers tend not to be precise in this, in this kind of er context er Mr Campbell. But certainly we... er as I said, the essential point is that we are looking, looking at the capability... across the board and taking into account the strategic requirement as we see it in terms of the direct threat to the U K in particular, which is obviously... dramatically declined as a result of the collapse of the Warsaw pact. We believe that certainly for the time being, the combination of the fighter aircraft and rapier... will provide an acceptable level er of air defence with a much reduced air threat to the U K er which now exists. We will continue to look at... er the future programme er we will also as you know, look at ballistic missile... defence which is another... element to this and that must need to be fact facted in as well but I think clearly we are not talking about in the medium term... er and longer term, we are talking about er a fairly late stage of the programme. [Campbell:] I mean how do you protect... Eurofighter two thousand in the absence of... the medium range surface to air missile... on the, I think you you told us about er... the aircraft themselves as it were providing their own protection but what else? [Gordon:] Well as I've said we we have as you say y y yourself, you have the aircraft itself, you have the er... the existing er air defence aircraft, you have rapier... and in in our view, er in certainly in terms of the U K's threat er that is er an acceptable er er suite of preventative measures in the light of the threat which we now have. I think I have to... make the point to you that we... are planning to roughly double... the size of the er airforce equipment programme er between now and the end of the century, a very substantial chunk of that is E F two thousand and its er associated weapon systems and, you know, one has to frankly, take er a view on priorities er in the light of the strategic requirement and given the... er extent of the threat as we see it, the possibility of using... er of taking part in out of area operations in coalitions, that kind of thing, that was the judgement we took er the medium term priorities were such that we couldn't afford the first er stage of A M S A M. [Campbell:] W was that decision to any extent er influenced by, if I can put it rather er ineptly, the state of blood hound when it was taken out of service. [Gordon:] Well as you know I think the committee looked at this erm in nineteen ninety one and er... I think it is fairly true to say that by the time it was taken out of service blood hound did not represent a very high level of capability... erm and the gap, there is a gap obviously between blood hound it'll it'll now be a rather longer gap between that and any A M S A M replacement, er but blood hound itself was judged to be frankly not worth having. [Campbell:] I remember Mr Alan Clarke who was then minister of responsibility saying rather elliptically in the house of commons that the removal of blood hound did nothing to degrade Britain's air defence. [Gordon:] I would not wish to disagree with Mr Clarke. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Campbell:] Well I wouldn't offer that as a general er proposition. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gordon:] Neither would I actually, in this particular case. [Campbell:] [LAUGHTER] perhaps we should [] confine it to the specifics we're talking. One last matter please erm, so far as I understand that... you've not yet drafted the separate staff requirement for reconnaissance, I beg you pardon, reconnaissance equipment for Eurofighter two thousand. Are you able to tell us what the timescale of that is? [Gordon:] Perhaps I can ask Group Captain? [White:] Yes.... of the four nations in the programme, the U K is the only one that has a requirement for reconnaissance. Erm, and at the moment we are carrying out some studies which er are nearing completion, to decided exactly what the... R A F's future requirements are for tactical reconnaissance. As that work comes to... er fruition, the staff target will be drafted and in fact work is already begun on that, erm but because the reconnaissance capability won't be required until... fairly late in the replacement programme then... there is no particular hurry to get on with the work. What we hope to be able to do is to... complete the requirement... the staff target this year and set in train some industrial studies to see what the various options are and then once we enter the production investment phase then that would be the time that we would er look to doing the development work. [Campbell:] Are these costs included in the overall estimates which have been given to us... f for the reconnaissance. [speaker001:] reconnaissance. [Evans:] Er, yes indeed they are. [Campbell:] They are... many thanks, thank you. [speaker001:] Neville Trotter. [Neville:] from what you've told us, it would be possible for this aircraft to be so multi mission it could replace the whole of the front line er R A F fast jet strain, could that be true? [speaker001:] Group Captain. [White:] I I think the... the the point I would I wish to make is that in... whilst er its multi role capability would have enabled it to replace a number of roles and possibly a number of er aircraft and er as Mr Evans said earlier, that's still being looked at. The one role that it won't be able to carry out is, as we were talking earlier, about the er J P two three three, runway denial weapon and also er nuclear. So that that,... those two roles er clearly cannot be covered by it. [Neville:] I I was also thinking o of Veestol and and er the weapons going on and the mistakes anyway on on the developing a harrier replacement, is the R A F still interested in that as a feature... a short take-off... vertical take-off? [speaker001:] I think the R A F would would clearly be interested in in keeping in touch with what's going on there, of course the states themselves er the picture is not entirely clear er about er what kind of types are going to emerge in the longer term but we would certainly wish to keep a a close view on what was going on and of course there is a Navy dimension to to the harrier replacement as well. [Neville:] Coming back to what you said about the load carrier, we are supposed to no longer be in the nuclear game in the airforce, isn't that right... coming out of the nuclear role?... So that would no longer be a consideration. [speaker001:] I think I think erm it's a question, Mr Trotter, it's the long range penetrator I think which erm is is the distinction, it's the ability to get through low level, longer range and carrying greater level of ordnance than either. [Neville:] Wh what about er runway lengths, obviously depends on what it's carrying but er how how does it compare with existing aircraft for that? [White:] Erm, it's very much shorter because as we were saying earlier on the the short take off and landing capability, erm... with er I'd prefer to talk about distances perhaps in the closed session but the er the simple answer is very much. [Neville:] Only one crew member with all the technology in the world, some of us still think that it's a comfort to have somebody in the back watching the systems. [Gordon:] Well that particular subject of course is er... er still a matter which is discussed... with great heat er in the crew rooms all over the Royal Air Force. [Neville:] Especially the navigators. [Gordon:] Exactly and er... we are buying er a two seat version of this aeroplane... er our two seat version is aimed primarily at operational training... but er we have examined er time and again whether we believe the er... the integration of the avionics which is possible in this aeroplane and which is planned for this aeroplane... er is... going to be able to reduce the pilot work load to such an extent that one man can comfortably do the job... and we have arrived at the conclusion that he most certainly can. The er... work which has preceded... at er British Aerospace in the... the cockpit, to bring together all the information, displays and controls... erm has been... tested on er a team of eighteen pilots from, drawn from the four nations, to see whether they believe they can cope with that sort of pilot work load in in simulated operations and they're content that this kind of... cockpit is ideally suited for the task and they can cope. So we are convinced that it is er a cheap one. [Neville:] What about spare aircraft. Do you set out the sum, er you must set out some calculation of how many you are likely to to lose over the life of the aircraft, is there a percentage figure you could give us for that? [Gordon:] Erm, Mr Evans er... will reply to that, obviously we we do plan for certain levels. [Evans:] Yes [clears throat] I think it's fair to say at the moment that, that, that is being looked at Mr Trotter, together with er the broader range of issues on the er... the operating concept er for E F two thousand but it is of course standard practice to buy not just the number you need for the front line but to buy sufficient aircraft to keep that front line in field for about twenty five, thirty years, whatever the life of the aircraft happens to be, taking account of er attrition, taking account of training requirements and engineering needs... and support needs and all that kind of thing and all that work... er is, has been done, is being done at the moment and er final figures will be put to that in in due course. [speaker001:] Thank you, Mr Colgan. [Michael:] Mr erm bearing in mind it its multi role capability and the fact that the U K is likely to be engaged in more and more out of air operations in support of U N er has any consideration been given to a maritime variant. Would that be er a practical thing to do or would you have to start redesigning a new aircraft? [Gordon:] Er by maritime variant do you. [Michael:] I mean from air, to fly from aircraft carriers. [speaker001:] The short answer is no. Not at this stage. [Michael:] Is that because of technical difficulties, or for some other reason. [speaker001:] Erm er it's basically that there is no stated requirement at present from any of the four nations, for this aircraft to operate on ships... er back in the early days of the programme when the the French were involved... er we looked at the possibility of designing an aircraft er to provide the whole spectrum of capabilities from air defence... er ground attack and also maritime operations off ships... and er we we certainly experienced some difficulties in reconciling all those things in one design, which was adequately capable in each of the areas. Thank you Campbell. [Campbell:] There's an ambiguity I suspect it it's a in my mind rather than yours about the nuclear role, did I understand you to say that Eurofighter two thousand would not have... the capability of carrying for instance the W E one seven seven, we know that the is not going to be er taken any further according to recent announcement but... will Eurofighter two thousand have the capacity to carry W E one seven seven? [Gordon:] No that demonstrated the point I was making, it will not. [Campbell:] So it, in the absence of the Tasm and in the absence of the capability then it's not gonna have a nuclear role. [speaker001:] No. [Campbell:] Thank you very much. [speaker001:] Winston Churchill. [Winston:] Would there not be... merits er at least putting in the requisite wiring... in case at a future date, that a C A S O M for instance, became dual capable? [speaker001:] Er, perhaps I could make er... one comment, maybe Mr Gordon will ma wish to make a a technical comment on it, but certainly when we began the programme and we discussed with the other nations in the early stages of of the collaboration.... erm... It was really one of the guidelines, it was the, if we considered doing that then I don't think we would have had a four nation programme or certainly a five nation programme at the start, I don't think we would've er stayed together, it was really one of the basic requirements not to have that capability. [Winston:] But is it not an add on capability er to a large degree if the basic wiring is there? [speaker001:] I think we'd find Mr Churchill that it it's rather more complex than that and and the... requirements for delivering a nuclear weapon and you refer to the possibility of... C A S O M being nuclear capable, one has to be... fairly careful quite a, there's a degree of difference between a missile needed to do... the two jobs... and I think it would be rather more than wiring which would be er at issue here, there's the payload and all the rest of it which I suspect would cause very severe problems with that. [White:] Er well we always start... from what does the operator of this aircraft want to use it for. This E S R D really is the bible and we have specified the aircraft to meet that E S R D and not anything extra, er... obviously if... one of the four nations wants to build a nuclear role into the aircraft that becomes a very big political question... first and foremost and we have just not considered it at the technical level at all because it's er it's not in the requirement. [Winston:] Is it a big technical problem or is it... very straight forward. [White:] Er I don't think I'd wish to speculate in in open forum. [speaker001:] It doesn't require a great bite of imagination to see that the Germans for example would have been extremely reluctant to have been involved in a four nation project with a nuclear capability available as part of it. Well I I I wouldn't er... pin point the German attitude on this one, I mean after all we did collaborate with Germany very successfully on the tornado which has a nuclear role... but the the four governments must first of all decide if that is what we want to build into this aeroplane and they decided that they did not at that stage. [Winston:] I stand corrected. [speaker001:] Fine. If I just er end this... this particular item in two brief questions. From what you said about reconnaissance equipment it rather sounds to me as if the tornado D R one A is likely to be replaced by in this reconnaissance role. Is that right? [Gordon:] I think as a Group Captain er explained y'know the... the operational staff have really got to complete their study into what kind of tactical reconnaissance capability they want in the next century. The D R one A is currently an excellent er tactical reconnaissance aircraft, all weather, at night etcetera... and er it will go on well into the next century so there's no great hurry to to make a decision er one of the first points has gotta be decided is whether we carry the reconnaissance equipment in a pod under the aircraft replacing some of the other weapons or whether we try to build it in and er... but taking first things first we have to get the requirement sorted out. [speaker001:] Thank you and as far as the jaguar's concerned I noted that the jaguar is not being phased out now until two thousand and four, that being a three year further delay. Is that related to the delay in production... dates? [Gordon:] Erm, Mr Evans. [Evans:] Er no I don't think it is... Mr Chairman. [speaker001:] And do we know what the reasoning behind it is. [Evans:] Well we do or we'd, it had already been envisaged that er the jaguars would run out at er roughly that time. [speaker001:] I think it was three years earlier though wasn't it? [Evans:] Well er... the... I mean there has been a slight complexity with the replacement er programme of course because er... er E F two thousand was originally envisaged that it would replace the phantoms er as as as as well as the jaguars and... now that er has altered with the decision in options to er get rid of er the phantom squadrons, we've er been able to adjust the replacement programme... such that er the aircraft... E F two thousand will replace er the erm er the jaguar and some of the F threes er and the programme will be adjusted such that we get er the most cost effective er mixture of replacement of those two types and there is no problem with... keeping the jaguar going until that stage... and it may well be it is, is being judged to be cheaper that we should er do some F three replacement at the same time, again partly for cost reasons because it's gonna be more cost effective to do it that way. [speaker001:] like the jaguar really be able to go on that long given er that er there's an awful lot of errors in the Gulf apart from anything else. [Gordon:] Well obviously that factor er... was considered carefully... by the Ministry of Defence before our Secretary of State agreed that we could... safely defer the in service date for Eurofighter two thousand and adjust the... the er replacement plan er back in December ninety two, so we have looked at what is the current rate of consumption of airframe life on the jaguar er what can be done... economically and sensibly to keep it flying safely and effectively into the next century and er we have come to the conclusion that we have a viable plan here which can tie up with the planned rate of delivery to service of Eurofighter two thousand. [speaker001:] So are you gonna have to restrict training in er operational flights jaguar at a stretch... just to stretch out the hours? [Gordon:] We understand that that is not necessary but erm... my colleague may wish to. [White:] No. [speaker001:] But it does sound from what you're telling us now that it is actually directly related and to recall my original question, was it related to programme to which I had the answer no, erm what you said. Well I I apologise we're not trying to mislead you er Mr Chairman in any way. Clearly there is a connection, if Eurofighter two thousand was available earlier... then they the plan for replacing... er some of the aircraft in the R A F's front line er could be adjusted accordingly erm... but it's not a sort of direct one for one er if the part of the programme slips a year the jaguar must go on an extra year because within the R A F's... overall plans for its er fleet replacement there is a certain degree of flexibility an and precisely which point the jaguars get replaced is er a judgement between them and their three. I think I know what you mean anyway, thank you. Neville Trotter [Neville:] Two er... requirements for the future that er seem to be er er desirable are stealth and what could be stealthier than the present generation of aircraft and secondly to prevent you having to go over your target you're likely to be shot down so that you need a stand up weapon capability, er... if the payload is somewhat limited can it still carry stand off weapons that are effective? [Gordon:] Er, Group Captain. [White:] those yes, yes. Erm perhaps I could... would it, I wonder if you could just expand on stealth exactly what the er [Gordon:] Have actually already covered them another time and I don't want to get deeper in the stealth now than that, there's a limit on the time now available this morning. [Neville:] Can we deal with the weapon question, the stand off weapons. [White:] I can answer that very briefly Mr Chairman er yes, there will be the capability to carry stand off weapons the conventionally armed stand off missile for example will have a good stand off range. [Neville:] That will be carried by. [White:] That will be carried and er... with a shorter range but the advanced anti armour weapon, that will also have a stand off capability and that will also be carried. [speaker001:] go on into the development timescale and costs. Yes it's now going to take two years longer I think than was originally er contended, to what extent is this due to technical difficulties and to what extent is it due to one of our partners and Germany one's thinking of in particular, wishing to slow the programme down for fiscal reasons? [Gordon:] Well erm it's a combination of both those factors er as I've mentioned at the outset... the development programme has moved ahead a little more slowly than we would wish, the main reasons for this were associated firstly with the delay in selecting equipment er and that took longer than our contractor ha had imagined. Secondly the deliveries of the equipment from the equipment suppliers who had been selected er generally fell behind the promises which they had made, so the main reason for the technical delays has been lack of equipment of the correct standard to proceed with the integration programme... erm the... erm... the problems which beset the programme in nineteen ninety two after the German minister started questioning its future clearly had a direct bearing on that because many of the equipment suppliers, particularly those in Germany, suddenly began to think hey this programme is not going anywhere, why should we invest a lot of effort and and money into it and they slowed down so that has had a knock on effect in in terms of delaying the total programme and erm... the result of all of that has been that the current development programme schedule which we have supplied to the committee... is probably about as fast as the programme is capable of running. [speaker001:] First flight still going to be in April? [Gordon:] We are confident it will be in April, yes. [speaker001:] And will that aircraft be less capable in its first flight than you'd originally hoped? [Gordon:] Erm... it has always been planned that the... this er... release of the flight control system, will be phased through five steps and... the... capabilities at first flight are more or less what we had been planning er right from the outset. [Neville:] The cost is going to be some three thousand four hundred million I think to er to the U K. That's er gone up by about thirteen percent, four hundred million roughly, er over the original estimates, half of that is due to programme re-orientation because of the extension of the programme by two years as I understand it. Can you spell out what those costs are and are we having to pay more because Germany wants to slow the programme down? [Gordon:] Perhaps I can ask Mr Perry to er fill in the details on costs? [speaker001:] Yes.... Erm Mr Trotter er that er apportionment of the four hundred and fifty million between er the effect of... programme re-orientation and other factors. Can I just say that I had figured four hundred million, it is in fact four fifty. Four fifty million sorry. Four fifty million, erm between programme re-orientation and other factors was an apportionment we made back in the er first half of nineteen ninety three and in the light of later information I think we would revise that now erm we... are still negotiating with the contractors on the revised contract price and we do not have definitive costs yet but in fact the... cost increase as a result of the rescheduling of the programme directly should be quite modest. There are some unavoidable costs er on that count, particularly on the engine programme where... delays to the aircraft programme which results in extra costs on the engine side are the customer's liability. Erm, but the... main increase in cost is actually in the equipment area... and results I think from... the fact that the equipment prices turned out to be higher than was originally estimated at the start of the programme and also the fact that U K industry won a higher work share on equipment than we had originally been entitled to and budgeted for and lastly the point you mentioned that Germany has withdrawn from some parts of the requirement and that made... certain equipments non common and we have had to take a larger share of the cost of those equipments than originally planned. Okay, can you spell out how our share of the cost has increased because our share of the work has increase. I thought that presumably the bill was still divided proportionately between the countries. No the, the bills are met by er on the territorial funding basis so basically we pay for the work done in the U K. From which we will get the benefit presumably when production starts. In in in in er general terms, whether the production work sharing is.

[Ken:] That er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the name of pension fund and... any transactions involved with pension fund money wh it should be a duty of the Financial Institution to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account. [speaker002:] If I may say so the key point isn't it that... a lot of the transactions you discussed were off market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the Financial Institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting a as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions. So if the law was clear... that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending which I think is what is about is suggesting, if carried on properly on the market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the Financial Institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances. No you were saying weren't you? [Ken:] Oh I'd say it is [speaker003:] Yes. [Ken:] wrong anyway in that er I'll say it's the er early on it in the report Good defines what he determines a prus trustees duty and as I said to a sort of effectively orb enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund er is against that duty in the first place, but it to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty which I will say stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender. [speaker003:] Right, Ken any other points? [Ken:] Er can I er I I started to comment on about the er er bank accounts and which are y you know er my the reaction that I saw was all round the table er I think we would go further but er... any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names on all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of bonus of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would have a at least alerted these financial institutions as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension funds and they still ignored it in that that w case that they did, but er they would have not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension fund assets. [speaker003:] I think they are still claiming well it's not that I didn't know, but anyway [LAUGHTER] Ken [] [Ken:] Er we did we were gonna raise a point on that the clash of the regulatory rules and the producery duty of under trust law, you know and I... I think there you know there there was a comment that that I picked up with Professor Gower you know in his report which I think where he said the Government obviously have greater confidence than I in reliance on pristine trust law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated. Now there was nothing in Good really that I think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law. Now I think that the Good did say oh well there is a law commission report expected, but I think that you know the Good should address somewhere tha that problem of trust law and regulation should and then I did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which I think was a very good recommendation of yours, I think the actual area of responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important. I think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination of the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisers, establishment of the Pension Tribunal, you know now as far as I was concerned on on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that that you have made over your two years and I couldn't really find any response to those in Good, and I think that's er you know we... we personally found that disappointing. [speaker003:] Also I mean er we take your point and we've made it before Ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like Professor Gower and then picking it, instead of actually taking the whole thing because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had Professor Gower's report been an exception in this entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much, er all three of you for coming points so clearly [speaker002:] Thanks very much [speaker003:] at the end was very good wasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] that's good. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Very good. Yes. [speaker002:] [5 minute break] [speaker003:] All right, we want to make a start if we can, if people could settle down. What I'm gonna ask you to do, if you could introduce each of yourselves and say which pension fund you er come from er and if we start from your left, my right. [Malcolm:] Oh... the thing in front of me it's Malcolm Adams and I'm with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. [John:] It's John Mostin also with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. [Gay:] I'm Gay Appleby, General Secretary for the National Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. [Ron:] I'm Ron Smart, Chairman of the British erm Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. [Jim:] Jim Castle, Member of the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. [Michael:] I'm Michael Smedley, Chairman of the Impact which is the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. [speaker003:] Gay. [Gay:] Thank you Chairman erm I would like I know that you've been listening to the first er part of our session this afternoon, erm and I'd like to ask you to discuss with us one of the questions that we asked the group the Pension Fund erm and that's to discuss the balance of power that exists between the employer and the various groups and classes of pensioner. Perhaps if I just start with that simple question and see how it develops. [speaker003:] What help us,we we'll go to we'll direct the questions to different people erm and if you agree, just say you agree so that we don't have er... erm... a session of people just rec reciting what everybody else has said, but if we start with you erm Jim, sorry I can't see the [Michael:] Michael Smedley. [speaker003:] Yes, right. [Michael:] Erm, we feel very strongly about this that there should be a balance of power with the employer nominating no more than half of the trustees. After all he's put the money in to pay pensions and the beneficiaries ought to have a strong hand in saying how that money is used, so we see half the trustees coming from the employer, the other half from the members of the pension fund, and we've got a pension fund with the very heavy weighting of er pensioners and not so many employees and we would like to see the remaining seats er half the trustees elected, partly from the current employees, partly from the deferred pensioners and partly from the pensioners and reflecting in a broad way the numbers in each of those categories. [speaker003:] Erm [Michael:] We think that would be a fair way of of erm managing the fund and avoiding the case of having tame... tame trustees who do what they employer tells them. [speaker003:] B T, same or different? [Gay:] Erm well slightly different in the fact that er we er have two close schemes with far more er beneficiaries than there are er subscribing members, and at the moment that are four nominated by the er employer and four by the unions er we wish to say a pensioner erm that the rights were a pensioner nominee to that board of trustees, because we feel that er the situation is er is going to increase, we've got so many beneficiaries and that the pensioners have no representative er I know that erm people on the boards of trustees are completely impartial, but on the other hand there is no pensioner there, the members are unsure of the fund, because of what's been said, not that I'm implying it's not a secure fund, it is a secure fund, but they think why are they keeping the pensioners off, they there is some sort of hidden agenda they will not have us on there because neither of the businesses although we have tried for several years er they will not entertain at the moment erm a pensioner trustee, and yet Professor Good in his report acknowledges the merit of pensioner nominated trustees, er particularly in the sort of schemes where we've got,wh where th the majority of beneficiaries. [speaker003:] Great, British Steel? [Malcolm:] Yes er I think we're just slightly different again er Chairman inasmuch that the British Steel Pension Scheme at the moment has fifty ce fifty per cent employer er trustees and fifty per cent nominated trade union trustees. We too would like to see some pensioner and pensioner trustees on that trustee board, but we do also recognise because it is er a large scheme heavily weighted er with er pensioners and deferred pensioners in the very fact that it has been transferred from the public centre of public er sector into the private sector, that we would like to see an independent trustee er er appointed on to the er Committee of Management it would er er sort of act as a balance and be able to provide er specialist advice to particularly the Trade Union Trustees and for that matter the Employer Trustees so as to keep a broad balance of what's happening within the that time. [speaker003:] Very good er we may come back to that in a moment. [Malcolm:] Thank you. [speaker003:] But listening to you make that case it's very similar to reading the great debate on franchise reform in this House in the last century, when people said we should be included and that people like us should be able to have the vote and put people into Parliament, it's I mean it was just that you were you were making that plea about pro that the Board should be representative as being like... the group who are benefiting. You've made very powerfully erm and I'm that's a point that we'll take on board. When you talk about this split, fifty-fifty, could we go back that way. Who elects the Chairman? [Malcolm:] Well [LAUGHTER] that's er... that's another thing that's happened within the British Steel's er scheme, the Chairman seems to be elected in himself or by the company, it's certainly not e elected by the Trustee Board and er... a and we would like to see [speaker003:] You mean parachuted in is he? [Malcolm:] Yes, he's certainly parachuted in. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] all right. But who but, but that's describing what happens, how do you think the Chairman should be elected? [Malcolm:] I think [speaker003:] Even letting you you've all talked about the you know employers are paying money in and so on, we don't want the schemes wound up, er... if I was the the employer, might I not be concerned if you elected a... a chairman that wasn't... erm favourable to me? [Malcolm:] Er you might er the company might well be concerned about that point, but er I think if the composition of the Board was er correct, that er that possibly wouldn't arise. [speaker003:] What you mean you'd have blocking mechanisms? [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes, very good, I see the point. Thanks. [speaker002:] I see no reason additionally why the independent people on the Board should not act to protect the company in the same way as they're trying to help protect the other members. [speaker003:] Yes, but your colleague has also made the point that the constitution might have a blocking mechanism so that people, both sides, could be satisfied, wasn't it. [Ron:] But Post Office and B T management appoint the Chairman of the Trustees, there are four Trustees appointed by the [speaker003:] Yes. [Ron:] Management, four by the Trade Unions and the Chairman is appointed by the management. [speaker003:] Right. [Ron:] No, no, the present... the present one was a... I think he was a Chairman of a big building society before he came into the Post Office and they use these... are on three year terms, but er the previous Post Office one er spent nine years as Chairman, spent three yea three terms of three years. [speaker003:] So they're there for three years? [Ron:] Yes. [speaker003:] Right and er is it a full-time job the Chairmanship? [Gay:] Erm I don't know, I don't think it's erm I mean I I think it occupies er [LAUGHTER] seventy-five percent [] of his time, but it isn't full-time. [speaker003:] No, I was just thinking,we we're, we're debating the in the Commons at the moment, changing the parole board from having part-time members, to having... salaried full-time ones, which are on limited contracts... and that clearly puts those parole board members in a different position to the Home Secretary and one it's ju you just do it because it's a part-time activity, you may get some expenses that you think is important, and I just wanted to get clear whether the Chairman on a limited contract a large part of their work appointed by the employer. Thanks. [speaker002:] Our Chairman is appointed by the company and is usually a senior management member. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] The erm pensioners and the employees have no say whatsoever in that. [speaker003:] Very good. [Ron:] That's... that's the present case, but I think er impact would say that with a fifty-fifty split, then those trustees should elect their own chairman and should be free to bring in independent trustees, so if you had a board of say four company members and four elected by the members er of the pension fund, they might decide to have two outside independents, one of which they would choose as the Chairman. [speaker003:] So you no longer have a fifty-fifty split then, do you? [Ron:] Er... you... er you'd have two outside independents and you couldn't say how they would be, but they would be elected by the whole te whole er Board of Trustees. [speaker003:] Jane? [Jane:] Er I'm forgive me if this information is already available to the Committee but er are each of your schemes are they money purchase schemes or final salary schemes? [Ron:] Ours is a finance salary scheme. [Jane:] committee did draw distinction between the two different kinds of schemes, erm perhaps if I could just ask you what do you think of the committee the Good reports er conclusion on training for trustees where they er the recommendation was that it was a laudable objective, but should not be made compulsory? [Ron:] Er can I answer that. We er are fortunate enough in having a training scheme, in fact we were able to elect our first pensioner representative trustee two years ago and he is with us today, we've just had another election and er two this time were elected, they will be trained, they had er Mr Hill had a two-day training by our actuaries er Watsons which are a big company, er but in talking to him about it he felt there was a lot to be said for having continued training, not just at the beginning of a two or three-year stint, but successively later. It's a big responsibility which is very much on the trustees shoulders, he is, he is standing on his own there and it's [speaker003:] We were we were only smiling then because Watsons also trains us [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It's one of our advisors. [Ron:] No, but we feel that's very important indeed. [speaker003:] Absolutely, no. No, no we understand the value of that don't we. [Gay:] Erm well we would like to see training of the trustees, there is no training at the moment er for the trustees in erm either of our schemes er and we very much in our submission came out we felt there should be er training from the trustees. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] Yes, we would like to er certainly see er training become compulsory with trustees and we would also like to see er guidelines set er for that particular training, so that train so that the trustees within all schemes would receive similar training, rather than piece-meal by one set of actuaries or another set of actuaries. Erm can I just clarify this point, the impression I'm getting from the, from the phraseology in the way you've chosen your words is that your trustees in your particular pension funds which all er former nationalised industries, er haven't received any training. Is that correct that er [Gay:] That is correct. [speaker002:] Well the as far as we know the er certainly the trade union [Gay:] Don't get any. [speaker002:] Don't get any. When the management trustees get any training, we don't know. Yes, in British Steel they, they do receive training, they do receive training. [speaker003:] Right. [Malcolm:] Even if but I'm not saying that it's er the proper type of training that we would like to s [speaker003:] You were saying that in fact you still don't get any training. [Malcolm:] That's correct. [speaker003:] Yes, so you're privatised? [Malcolm:] That's correct. [speaker003:] Yeah. Just to make a party point, is that all right? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Even accepting the fact that training is desirable I think that the trust law is so complex [speaker003:] I know. [speaker002:] That it's very, very difficult indeed to be trained to know all the parts of it. In the last analysis is the innate honesty of a trustee who realises that perhaps something is going right and takes advice. [speaker003:] Could we just quickly, who should pay for the training of the trustees, employer or the trust? [speaker002:] The trust. [speaker003:] The trust? [speaker002:] The trust, yes. Pen pension fund. [speaker003:] Very very good. David? [speaker002:] Of course the role of the trustees is, is, is... re- affirmed really by Good who er says that there under the under trust or as he sees it, the trustees should remain the legal owners of the fund and I wonder if we can move on to ownership. I I think you were all here listening to the erm pensioners before you were they were talking about their ideas which were also our ideas in our er report on the designated ownership of, of the pension funds and in particular they had a couple of ideas which you may have heard about having the word pension in the in the names, just technical points, er pension in the names of er of the funds and and people who were er giving advice on behalf of them. I wonder if you could like anybody would like to elaborate on that? We'll start at the far end. [speaker003:] Can I, can I just pass for a minute and think on this one and come back. [speaker002:] Mm I will pass as well temporarily. [Gay:] Erm [speaker002:] It's really sorry, it's really the, the question of whether the the the... the pension fund belongs to the trustees or is it has been found [Gay:] Well erm in our organisation and it was in our submission that we felt that it er it should belong wholly to erm the employer erm it should belong to the beneficiaries as well, because we feel very strongly that the pension is deferred pay, it is deferred salary, and therefore they should have an ownership of part ownership in that fund. They pay in six per cent of their salary, why should they be debarred from saying that they own part of those funds. We feel that erm you know that they're both very good schemes an and well run, but we still feel that erm the e fund should not be owned entirely er by the employer. [speaker003:] British Steel? [Malcolm:] Thank you. Well [clears throat] we consider that er pensions er contributions are deferred pay, including the employers contributions erm that the fund should be held on trust by the trustees and that the employer should have no ownership in it whatsoever. [speaker003:] Very good. [Ron:] Er I would, I would echo that, that we feel that they money has been paid in for work or services done by the employer and by the er fund members themselves have contributed and I don't think it belongs to either of those parties in... any more, it's held by the trustees to pay pensions, if for nothing it's been put there just to pay pensions, it's not a piggy bank for er for companies to draw out with the with their tame er trustees allowing it, it it's money the trustees hold in... in trust... and I believe that's the law at the moment and er I I think we would like to see that confirmed in any new law. [speaker003:] Good, thank you. [speaker002:] off that, er I think several of us believe that the complexities of trust law at the present moment can make it very difficult if one agreed. Our own particular case is our case went to the High Court... some three hundred thousand pounds, when perhaps if we'd had a dedicated pensions act setting out what could and could not be done, that would never have happened. [speaker003:] You, you have a history of legal actions don't you? [speaker002:] Sorry sir? [speaker003:] You have a history of legal actions [speaker002:] Not we ourselves [speaker003:] No, no [speaker002:] but the companies which we belong. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] doesn't it, yes [] indeed. What's the state of play on the second one, did it were, were the trustees all dismissed, or did Brown Wilkinson's judgment stop that? [speaker002:] Erm th the net result of it the proposal stopped dead, are those who did not wish to transfer, meaning the pensioners, had an increased inflation percentage as a result er pensioner representatives have been appointed, widows have had a increased pension. How much of that flows from the court case,I I wouldn't like to say, but my guess is quite a bit. [speaker003:] So you won on that, didn't you, because the proposal was to be no increases unless you transferred, wasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] Yes, indeed. Thank you.... Any... other comments? [speaker002:] it goes on in our case, that both of our pension funds have had massive surpluses, i.e. erm there was a reported surplus by Watsons the actuaries, of one point erm seven billion which suddenly er vanished within one year to a seven er seven hundred million deficit and [Gay:] Er it er seven hundred and fifty three million [speaker002:] of course our members er of which we've got a hundred and twenty three thousand, flood the lines into Luton wanted to know what happens [LAUGHTER] they imagined a surplus as being some pot of er big tub of notes that they can dip it and we can dip into, but of course the surpluses have been used basically by British Telecom in particular for funding early retirement schemes er we're in no way in knowledge whether the money's every been paid back. We've been told that er everything's done in, in the relation to the trustee but of course when you're talking about massive sums of one point seven billion, our members er who are seventy fiveeighty olds who suffered the problem of the inflatory years, their pensions haven't kept, kept pace with the with the people that are retiring now. [speaker003:] We're gonna come [speaker002:] Although although there's a lot of people who feel they're all living in the lap of luxury if you're Post Office or B T pensioners, they aren't and we haven't been able to get this surplus er in any way used for the benefit of those people and er and that's where the ownership of the fund really and the surplus are tied in together. [speaker003:] We're gonna, we're gonna stay on this issue of ownership and surpluses for a little time, cos it's actually so important, but it's not unreasonable for your pensioners to think that here was this pot of money to which one could dip into, but the only thing is the pot of money disappeared didn't it? [Gay:] Yes,an and what really upset the erm the, the members of the scheme and the pensioners was the fact that the money was going to actually erm fund the redundancy per programme er for the business and was going to the benefit of the employees and none of it was going to the actual pensioners. Although they didn't, they didn't act illegally, they didn't say right, we're going to make the redundancy payment act, but what they did say you retire at fifty, we will make your we will enhance your pension to what you would have got at age sixty, we will enhance your lump sum to what you would have got at age sixty and erm give you a redundancy payment from the firm and obviously everybody fifty and plus they've gone in thousands, they had enormous waiting lists and then they had to say no, you can't go you know, too many people wanted to go. What happened, people should have been paying in for ten years were suddenly taking out for ten years and these huge enormous sums and obviously the surplus which our members had helped to build up er and provide through the years and we've got seventy-five year olds on you know, extremely low pensions hardly making ends meet, and there were vast sums of money being given away to the employees, that the employers took a contribution holiday and so they weren't paying into the fund either you know, and all the profits of B T as you all know were soaring and partially because of the use of the pension funds and this has greatly obviously erm upset our members and we feel very strongly about it. [speaker003:] Right. [Malcolm:] As you [clears throat] are probably aware Chairman from the media that the British Steel National Association of British Steel Pensioners also have a problem with a surplus and are seeking legal advice as to what has taken place. Er certainly the surplus was used to er create a new scheme for the present contributing members and er to the maximum benefit of the new sponsoring company, which er in the pensioners view er certainly er caused a great lack of security to the fund in our view of what they have done and er it is of in our opinion a matter of public concern and that we welcome the opportunity and I believe that you said previously that you're gonna come up on the ownership of surplus, so perhaps getting away from it [speaker003:] We absolutely no, no, you'll find we won't leave this topic cos there's three people who actually want to come in now and I'm going to bring them in round the table. Clifford first and then er Can I take you back to the er the Good Report er about Trust Law,i it the report er concludes that it should be retained as the framework for er occupation of pension schemes. Now... I M P A C say that they believe there should be a dedicated pensions act to replace trust law and the National Federation Post Office and B T pensioners say trust law should continue to be the basis of pension funds. Could [LAUGHTER] tell [] could each of you tell us why you take a different view? One way or another, I'm not quite sure what the... the state of the [speaker002:] We believe now outdated, it was never designed to deal with the current situation the modern situation and when you are talking about [cough] debts of some four hundred thousand million pounds, trust law does fall down. The only recompe the only resource anyone has is to go to the courts, for the courts to decide what the law is at that present moment. Now that's a costly business as we know to our cost, we didn't have to pay the three hundred thousand pounds, the pension fund did, but we had to risk paying those to go to court. Now next year something else might happen and somebody may be forced to go to court, if they cannot go to court they cannot get justice and they have to wait to see what happens. Now we have in the Companies Act a Table A which gives you a suggested er model, Memorandum of Association and Articles Association, why not a dedicated pensions act which says in here these are the minimum terms you must contain in your Trust Deed. You can better them if you wish, but you cannot go below them. People would know exactly where they stood then and we wouldn't have to go keep going to the courts to develop the theory of Trust Law. [speaker003:] So you'd leave the Trust Law in existence, so you wouldn't call cause a total legal revolution, but you would impose on that a spy... of legal requirements which if trusts wish to through Trust Law enhance, they could, but they h all have to bring their agreements up to that minimum? [speaker002:] Up to that minimum yes [speaker003:] Yeah, very good. [speaker002:] A model, model trust deed. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yes, B T? [speaker002:] page two of your submission [Gay:] Yes. [speaker002:] paragraph We felt that erm Trust Law had worked effectively erm you know over the years erm w we were happy with the extra powers that the er committee were recommending and the extra precautions that the committee were recommending that we brought in, but erm we would be happy with that backup to continue with the Trust Law. Even in the situation that we find ourselves in with the Maxwell Pension situation, where we find that the... the erm Trust Law didn't prevent the things from happening which did happen. Do you still take that view? But they hadn't got the backup of erm like th the regulator appointed. I'm sorry I couldn't hear everything that the Maxwell people were saying, sitting behind me,you you've lost their, their voice and you... you know, I couldn't hear what they were saying. But wi with the appointment of er of the regulator and the oth the other erm... recommendations that were made by the report, we think with that backup w w we are still basically happy to continue with Trust Law. Well I er er we I wasn't speaking about the, the evidence today, I'm speaking about evidences that have been taken in the past, where we had even trustees before the committee. We informed the committee that regardless to the fact that they were trustees, they were in no position to challenge Mr Maxwell... and under those conditions then they felt that the... the law should be changed... that the Trust Law wasn't sufficient... to er look after pensions, because they felt that in certain circumstances in fact gave evidence to the committee, various people gave evidence along those lines, that they were almost powerless against Mr Maxwell and that's.... That's why I'm surprised you, you take this [speaker003:] Can I put Clifford's point to the point that we're still discussing er which is about the surplus and how both your legal frameworks you're advocating relate to the answers you've given us about surplus and the concern about surplus. Now if I, am I right in saying that B T is happy to continue er with the present framework of Trust Law, because within that framework you've proposed to us er a er a body of ideas about the composition of the numbers of trustees and who they should represent, which would make it much more difficult for employers to raid the fund. [speaker002:] Yes, because you would have your pensioners and your employers, yes. [speaker003:] And B T so and Imperial who's had a different experience to you after a takeover bid from a new employer clearly wants a legal framework, steel braces put within Trust Law to make it much more clear where power lies in th the operati operation of the trust and... that... possibly one one of those steel braces would the law would relate on h who could get their hands on the surplus and in what conditions. So to some extent your responses re i is quite naturally a response to the position you face with your employers isn't it. [speaker002:] Our response to it was of course that er since the Post Office was re released from the Civil Service in nineteen sixty-nine to trustee, to pen the trustees, there's been a minimum amount of trustees er I can recollect on those on the funds and we've not had any problem. I don't think the management interferes with the fund like the Maxwell situation. Certainly in our meetings with the with the presentations we get from the trustees every year about the fund, we meet the trustees, we haven't er any erm real worry of saying that the pension trust hasn't operated, because I think our the trustees of those two funds are much more independent than the Maxwell ones er were. [speaker003:] I'm not trying to put them on an equal par, but later Maxwell erm Action Group were concerned with four hundred and eighty million disappearing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You've told us one point seven million disappeared in surplus [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] Deficit. [speaker002:] Billions. [speaker003:] Billions, into a deficit erm that there are large... the problem we're looking at now is these very large transfer of assets which people feel that they built up with their contributions and whether that's right or not. can I just ask British Steel, that I mean you're hearing the other two groups. In a sense responding to our questions, naturally, depending on how they've been treated by their employer... can we have your comments about the sort of legal framework you think the pension fund should be in and then Jeremy will take over. [Malcolm:] Right, well I think the biggest problem with Trust Law is that it expects too much of trustees. It starts off essentially defining them as people who are impartial, and in no time at all we are talking about them being nominated from different sector interest. However, I think the practicalities in the situation are that we have to face the fact that they are not going to behave impartially and you see we have a classic example in er the circumstances of our own situation as described by John. We have an equal spit of company nominated and member nomina and union nominated trustees. They basically carved up our surplus between them and each supported the other and overriding all of that is that each and every one of them was an active member of the scheme. Now how under those circumstances do you achieve the impartiality that's supposed to be the cornerstone of Trust Law? [speaker003:] That's brilliantly put. Right, Jeremy. [Ken:] Yeah, really the question I want to put is to the er B T Post Office er representatives, that y you made a perfectly reasonable objection to the way in which B T funded it's early retirement scheme from the pension fund. Obviously this was challenged at some point. What I don't quite understand is what was the legal basis on which they went ahead with this despite the objection, presumably as some of the trustees as to what was being done, I could hear we're talking of er a deficit of one point seven billion appearing or it a surplus disappearing into a deficit, which is actually four times as much has disappeared out of Maxwell. Okay we know where it went and we know what it was used for, but er my question to you is, is it a legitimate use of a pension fund to fund a business development scheme which involves early retirement? [Gay:] Well we did take some er legal advice on it and we were told that it was not illegal, erm I mean we think it's highly immoral erm, but we were told it was not illegal, because they did not actually use the er the redundancy money did not come out of the fund, only this enhanced pension etcetera which was using up the, the surplus and we were told [Ken:] And it started the pension payments at a younger age or something? [Gay:] Pardon? [Ken:] They started paying [Gay:] Yes, at fifty instead of sixty, they said you retire at age fifty and we will make your pension up to what you would have got at age sixty and we will also do the same with you lump sum... and so now you know, this and they did that with thirty thousand I think went in one year, it doesn't take long to get rid of one point seven billion pounds when you're doing for that er that number of people erm and [speaker002:] I think the problem is that this one point seven billion was er an actuarial assessment by Watsons i it may never have been that amount of money. Directly... directly B T started erm saying well thirty thousand employees will go this year under B T ninety-two scheme i.e. they will go at fifty, they will draw their pension at fifty, which isn't the trust deed and for many years Inland Revenue point blank refused to let anybody draw a pension below sixty. They changed that, so the money er it's a bit different than the Maxwell, the money hasn't been erm a switched over to the Cayman Islands and all over the place, it's... it's stayed in, in the but of course we're told by the trustees and by our legal advice that nothing illegal's taken place, the money's been used to st er finance early voluntary retirement etcetera, etcetera. [Ken:] If the Trust Deed says the pension has to be paid at sixty, then the Trust Deed says it has to be paid at sixty, surely that you know, that's something you can't get rid of. [speaker002:] The schemes now are paid a pension at fifty, but the only, the only snag I understand is it isn't inflation, inflation proofed until fifty-five, but people are drawing their pensions and they get their lump sums at fifty and it's enhanced to take into account the actual and expected earnings for the next three years, so er you take thirty thousand people, one point seven billion can soon erm [Gay:] Disappear. [speaker002:] Can soon disappear. Clarify a point here. I if someone's their pension at fifty [Gay:] Yes. [speaker002:] and they had joined British Telecom at twenty, [Gay:] Yes. [speaker002:] Then they will have paid some thirty years [Gay:] thirty years yes. [speaker002:] into the pension fund [Gay:] Yes. [speaker002:] Presumably the maximum was about forty or was forty-five [Gay:] Forty-eight er yes. [speaker002:] Forty eight and and presumably many of the people who are perhaps seventy drawing pensions, they may not have even paid in thirty years themselves, I mean they may be many of them may not have been around for that period of time. So in fact there may be a quality of treatment actually between someone retiring at fifty or fifty-five in terms of the number of years paid into the pension fund, as someone say age seventy. [Gay:] Well I doubt it actually at the moment. Pardon? [speaker003:] The operative word there is might. [Gay:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] erm because I doubt it, erm at the moment with the fund that we're talking about the erm the close scheme, because most of these people in B T were originally erm in the Post Office, and of course when the they split erm then the erm Post Office workers went over to B T, they get a B T pension but in actual fact they paid into a pension scheme erm for many of them for forty years because they come into that age group, where so many people, you took a job when you were twenty o or or sixteen and you stayed with it for life, you didn't chop and change like people do these days and the majority of our members erm we can go down and I would say the vast majority of our members have actually worked for the Post Office or starting with the Post Office and then B T or staying with the Post Office for forty years, there's no end of them they've got in there forty years service. So no, I can't agree there, that there is erm unequality, they think they are being hard done by. [speaker002:] also history if I might just say that when the Post Office er split from the Civil Service, the firm was in deficit for twenty years and of course Post Office management say quite clearly that they were putting in sums of eighteen per cent of the pay bill... when it was only supposed to be nine per cent of the pay bill and that's why they're entitled to the... to the surplus. B T say the same, that for twenty years the firm was in deficit and both managements put in much more than the Trust Deed says to keep us to keep the fund afloat. [Gay:] But that [speaker002:] Employees paid their six per cent of their erm salary. [speaker003:] Mm, yeah. [speaker002:] But the both... until B T split from the Post Office, the Post Office put in if I remember rightly in negotiations those days er they were putting in something like fourteen per cent of the pay bill. [speaker003:] I don't want to get on to that [speaker002:] I think the point has been made er and let me er ask you to correct me if I if you don't i it's a fair assessment, the point that's really being made is there is a judgmental issue here as to whether a surplus arises from over-funding by an employer er substantial investment performance or or effectively unfair claiming between either the deferred pensioners or the pensioners and i it can be that all of those interests have to put into the pot and it's a judgment as to who actually is doing best in what circumstances. [speaker003:] I said I didn't want to get on to this area because it's you know, we could go on all night discussing whether this, well whether that. We we ar it was really helpful if we are concrete in actually the answers that we give rather than speculative. Jane. [Jane:] doesn't it come back to the issue of wh who they trustees are and who's interest, given that trustees are expected to be independent, in the end, who's interests do the trustees represent, because I've had experience of working with a pension fund that was in massive surplus and the actualar actuaries refused to agree their final report until that surplus was dealt with, so that the trade unions and the employer through the trustees had to negotiate a way of... spending that surplus and er given the pressures of the actuaries to say we were not allowed th the funds to continue unless you deal with this surplus, then it comes back to the issue of how the Board of Trustees is made up and if we accept that there is a degree of representation on that Board, then just exactly how that representation is divided. [speaker002:] Well in both our our er incidences what happens is that the actuary recommends what erm should happen. Watsons actually recommended what should happen with both the surpluses and their recommendation was that both businesses should take a contribution holiday for the next three, five and maybe even be ten years in the Post Office, depending how investments go erm an- and there was no discussion erm between or negotiation between anybody. That was recommended to the employers, the employers said yes, that's the action they would take, they put it to the trustees, the trustees agreed it and that was it. Full stop. [speaker003:] Well i it's becoming slightly unfair because Watsons isn't on the stand, Watsons would also you know probably spell out in a little bit more detail, but their advice was comprehensive that there were Inland Revenue rules that it would put the tru and so on and one would want to s to say that tha that as well, but I do want to move on. British, British Steel, yes? [Malcolm:] Yes,I I would like to come in to say how our er scheme was transferred from the er British Steel Pension Scheme to the new scheme in nineteen ninety. Now once the benefits were approved er by the Trust Deed and er bearing in mind that the Chairman at that meeting informed the Trustee and I quote in determining the structure of the scheme the company was prepared to enter into consultation with the Trade Unions and Trustees, but this was a consultative process only and not a subject for negotiation; and [clears throat] their company then went on to seek the er er the transfer of the present contributing members er... er and a hundred of the members agreed er to transfer into that new scheme. Now [clears throat] The Trust Deed and rules were asked for prior to their consent and the company made it clear that they would not be available until after the new scheme commenced on the first October nineteen ninety and indeed it was some eight days later on the ninth October at er Trustee meeting that the company presented the Trust Deed and rules and it was resolved that the Committee of Management would er transfer all the close scheme members er into the new nineteen ninety scheme and er... the same Trustees appointed themselves er Trustees of the nineteen ninety scheme and one hour later were the presentation of a draft deed amending the British Steel Pension Scheme and a draft interim Trust Deed establishing the British Steel Pension Scheme in nineteen ninety and a draft Trust Deed and rules of the British Steel Pension Scheme of nineteen ninety were tabled for noting; and those very Trustees that were on the first meeting agreed to transfer the assets to the new scheme, set as Trustees of the new scheme one hour later, accepted the assets and er without er seeking either legal or actuarial advice and in this case er Watsons were advisors to the company to the old scheme Trustees and to the new scheme Trustees. [speaker003:] The difference though between you and Imperial Tobacco was that the Trustees went into the Courts didn't they? [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker003:] dissimilar. [speaker002:] The reason they went into Court though was that erm I M P A C which was formed to protect the pensioners had threatened an injunction if they did not go to Court. So er listening to the gentleman on the left er echoes of nineteen ninety High Court case. [speaker003:] Yes. So you were saying who were threatening an injunction if you didn't go into Court? [speaker002:] We engaged a solicitor to look into the matter and he became convinced that there was I won't say a loophole, that there was a reason why this should not be done and er requested the Committee of Management to to Court for advice. This was done in the name of one of our pensioners. And stated that if they did not do so, we would an injunction to stop the proposals going through. The Committee of Management took the advice and went to the High Court... and as a result the proposal was stopped. [speaker003:] Jimmy? [Malcolm:] Yes, Mr Chairman it seems to me regarding that you could drive a double deckered bus through the legislation, and [speaker002:] Goodey has not looked at it satisfactorily as far as I'm concerned and as far as many of the scheme members are concerned, I mean he has concluded that the employers are still entitled to er do what they like with the surplus, the only thing that he recommends that they do it with the approval of the regulator himself, but he... the other thing that the Goodey has reported and concluded, that as long as they get their hundred per cent minimum requirement they can still go on their contribution holidays, and many and my scheme members feel that this is just a it's a freebie as far as they're concerned and scheme members don't do not benefit from the surplus and they would like to have seen or preferred to have seen Goodey making a change for the benefit of the scheme members paying into a scheme, rather than employers going away in a contribution holiday. Now is there any other er pension funds that do likewise or have any other experiences as far as surpluses are concerned? I I find issue with one point in the Good Report, when he mentioned that a surplus is a notional surplus, it cannot crystallize until the fund actual close down. If it is in fact a notional surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out of that notional surplus, he's taking real money out of from a notional surplus, it should not be allowed. told you didn't he that the surplus the only way one would know there was a surplus there was when the fund was closed, when every pensioner had been paid money left. But in view of the fact that different actuaries can come to different answers and Professor Good quotes one where a difference of half per cent gives rise to a difference of a hundred and sixty seven million. How does one know and I accept Professor Good's point what the exact amount of that surplus is. There may be in fact a deficit, and yet we still allow the employer to take money out. Now if we're saying you cannot ascertain this surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out? [speaker003:] Right. B T? Would you like to respond to Jimmy's question? [speaker002:] Well we were disappointed in the Good Report because er they did say it was one of the major issues, and yet they said that they didn't think any sweep in changes are needed which rather erm contradicted the earlier part of our report, we would have thought there were erm changes needed. A group of our here is largely actuarial surpluses and one doesn't really know whether there's a surplus things keep changes. The actuaries go to the employer to find out what their plans are. [speaker003:] British Steel how you go that answers a really good way of putting it. Thank you very much. [Malcolm:] Well British Steel adopted a somewhat more subtler tactic er they make a strong point of the fact that no money has ever been removed from the scheme despite the presence of a six hundred surplus. What they did is took half and used it to reduce their contributions and it was a large reduction, it was a reduction from twelve to currently five per cent. Er okay, different words to describe the same and indeed they didn't take out of any fund, but they achieved the same end result. [speaker003:] Jimmy? [Malcolm:] Well if this is the case then you don't see that any recommendations in Goodey would stop that kind of thing happening and if you don't see that, what recommendations would you make to the Committee that Goodey should put any report that would stop that kind of thing happening. Well the fear of boring you because I've said it before, I think that either a Trustee made up of an equal balance of members from the various interested groups which is very difficult to achieve in practice... and additionally independent trustees certainly in our case, we believe would have stopped it happening... because the movements in the direction it went was clear... now that we have the information in front of us to the Trustees, it was quite clear what was gonna happen and nothing was done about it. Now we didn't have a voice, remember we were never even informed before or until two years later after the event that it had happened. There are still British Steel pensioners from the old scheme who genuinely do not know that there exists a new scheme. Do you not believe that with this recommendation where [speaker002:] Goodey has said that the regulator has got to give his approval that would stop that? [Malcolm:] The problem there I would suggest is the timescale between the things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested. In the present [speaker003:] didn't understand the two years, I mean he would have told the regulator. [Malcolm:] Yes. Erm... whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would I suggest be able to smell out very quickly any malpractice and would have straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it. nothing recommended with Goodey in that particular cause is of any good. I don't think so. [speaker003:] Have erm Imperial? [Michael:] belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall-back position which Good has given, which they the trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but are feeling very much on surpluses, that the money is there first of all to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to Inland Revenue levels, whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company. The question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go to the company. We have suffered from the same thing as the other two er Abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm i it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who are made, made redundant, going to the company and swelling their balance sheets, while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation when their pensions were not made up to the same extent. In the old days when there was a possibility of... of erm ad hoc payments made, er that sort of thing was taken of, since the takeover of the company, that hasn't happened to the same extent so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it. [speaker003:] We need we've got lot's more questions to ask you. Peter? [John:] Erm, Mrs Appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator. How do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty eight thousand schemes to, to monitor? [Gay:] Great difficulty [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Gay:] Erm... er well we welcome the erm... e er er the proposal that there should be a regulator. Somebody er to whom the erm er er matters could be referred er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund erm to whom er I understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way which is something that we haven't got at the moment erm I mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees and the answer is that most of them are employed, and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going and redundancies are being made. You've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the funds, and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss. Whereas somebody who is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job. [speaker003:] So th the case you're putting that the that the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put cos until now you've been put it in grounds of i the trust should be repre representative of it [Gay:] Yeah [speaker003:] Now you're saying erm rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent [Gay:] Yes. [speaker003:] Because they're actually not worried about being sacked [Gay:] Yes. [speaker003:] either erm because redundancies are coming up, or Imperial trustees down, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust. Yeah, very good. [speaker002:] in our case the unions approved our proposals of the company, they raised no objections... it was only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the High Court case, we've just said, how can an employee be independent when he depends upon his employer for his future work. [speaker003:] So, really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a powerful a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee looking for whistle blowers. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] There's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the character. [Malcolm:] and that's where independents come in. [speaker003:] But, but, but that's a problem we all face. [speaker002:] And we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator would be much easier. [speaker003:] Why? [speaker002:] He won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time.

[speaker001:] Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. We're all aware that for th for their number patients with superficial bladder cancer provide an enormous amount of our workload, and for reasons partly of... husbanding our precious resources and also because lots of these patients come up with negative checks reducing the amount of irritation and upset to them it would be useful if we could do less than we do. Many people have looked at this before and they've come up with various prognostic markers, some of which are extremely complicated. But perhaps the... erm the simplest... erm... prognostic routes were... suggested by the M R C working parties which general urology which was mentioned in the last presentation.... They combined... erm the four hundred and fifty odd erm... four hundred and seventeen sorry patients in er several M R C studies and looked at them from the point of view of... erm prognostic markers for occurrence and they came up with two factors which overridingly were more important than the others. The first one was the result of the three month check cystoscopy either positive or negative... and the second one the number of tumours at presentation either single or multiple.... And from these two factors you can... erm form three prognostic routes. A low risk route... will have a single tumour at diagnosis and a negative three month cystoscopy. An intermediate risk group with multiple tumours at diagnosis or a positive three month cystoscopy. And a high risk group, multiple tumours at diagnosis and a positive three month cystoscopy.... The suggested protocols for these patients were as follows. The low risk category one patients would go straight onto annual check cystoscopy following the first three month check. The intermediate risk group would have a three monthly cystoscopy for a year and then go onto six monthly for a further year and then annual thereafter. And the high risk group would have three monthly check cystoscopies for two years and then go onto annual check cystoscopies. Any patient who recurs after the three month check cystoscopy is reassessed going back to the beginning and they may be reassigned to one of the the o o one or other of the... groups erm depending on that.... one of the criticisms or possible criticisms of the M R C figures was that these were all patients who had been entered into superficial bladder cancer studies and they don't therefore re represent all because people are selected to go into the trial and perhaps they are lower risk patients than others and in fact... I believe that the recurrence rate in the M R C studies are lower than you would expect for... er superficial bladder cancer in general. And so we did a sort of what if analysis looking a at the impact of implementing erm these... er prognostic categories on our patients. Now this was a retrospective analysis bit it was done on prospectively recorded information. hundred and fifty nine patients all come as presenting with superficial transitional cell carcinoma of the blood, and they all have prospectively follow-up date for more than twelve months following the first check cystoscopy.... You'll see that there is a mix er er of grades and stages and because it's the... the real world... erm in some of the tumours a a precise T category was not... erm decided by the pathologist. Again a mix of single and multiple tumours.... When you look at... er the arrangement of these patients in the prognostic groups you'll see that... the information from the... er the number of tumours at presentation and the the result of the three-month check cystoscopy is quite independent of grade and stage. Er there's no well there looks to be a trend towards higher grade er in in category three patients an and again more er more T one tumours. I the differences are not statistically significant.... Now this is a a sort of cost benefit benefit analysis based on what would have happened... if we'd followed these protocols ourselves. You'll see that the majority of patients fall into the low risk group with progressively smaller numbers in the intermediate and high risk group. Erm... four patients... erm... fro from the group overall subsequently developed cancer.... If we look at the actual numbers of cystoscopies performed you will you see... that... there were... the vast majority of work was done in the lower and intermediate risk group patients er and the positive er cystoscopy rate erm was much lower in the lower risk group, as you would expect, than in the higher risk group. If we had... followed the M R C protocols... er the numbers... er would have been much smaller in the lower risk group and erm... the erm... there was more effort placed in the high risk group than erm... there would have been we actually did. And a as a result of that our... positive cystoscopy rate was more comparable across the three groups than it was previously. You can only say what's.... what this... a doctor in this policy would have done in terms of delaying diagnosis in the lower risk group patients because clearly the other groups of patients are actually having more cystoscopies performed, but because it's a retrospective analysis you cannot say that you are... advancing the diagnosis of er of more frequently occurring tumours. There were thirty tumours from patients that had their diagnosis delayed by a mean of... four months. If we followed the rules... er the M R C rules strictly... one of the lower risk group of patients was a G three P T one tumour and that patient er progressed and in fact all the patients who progressed, all the four out of the hundred and fifty nine patients who progressed erm from the total group had either G two or G three P T one tumours at diagnosis, and I think there's a very strong case for making these a totally separate group of patients erm for follow up.... That just shows graphically what the change in the workload would have been. This is our actual workload and this is what it would have happened if we'd followed the M R C... er protocols. There would actually be a two percent increase in the number of... cystoscopies done but the... work would have be been much better targeted... er than we actually... we actually did.... So in conclusion adoption of the M R C follow up follow up policy would have resulted in... targeting of cystoscopic follow up to higher risk group patients, a two percent increase in the cystoscopic resources required and delayed diagnosis of tumour progression in one patient, and as I've said I I think that G three P T one tumours should be excluded from... er... this type of protocol. Perhaps other uses of... er this type of erm... protocol would be to... use.... flexible cyst er flexible check cystoscopy early in the lower risk group patients, and perhaps give the intermediate and higher risk group patients prophylactic chemotherapy. Thank you. [applause] [speaker002:] Er I think it would be useful to have er Mr back and we could er... discuss both of these papers together. questions? [clears throat].... Microphone number one. [speaker003:] P K from Lincoln. A question to both the speakers. Do you consider the smoker as a high risk group and do you... change your... attitude in checking them? [speaker004:] Erm... I think it j just adds a little bit of complexity t to it. I think... trying to keep something very simple... erm you know a simple rule for everyone to follow and all that that following this protocol requires is that er... that the urologist is at least partially sighted. It doesn't depend on a pathologist or any oth other information. [speaker001:] Yes I I'd agree. I I think if you've got a moderately or well differentiated tumour and i it's solitary and it's small and they're clear at three months tell them to stop smoking by all means [sound of microphone being brushed against]. [speaker005:] Can I just ask you both... er are you unwilling to modify the standard follow up er cystoscopy for G three tumours and for T one tumours, or is it just for the G three T one. I think Steve you were you were suggesting that it was only the G three T one. [speaker004:] Erm... well... all the patients who pr progressed had either G two or G three P T one tumours at diagnosis. They seemed to be a very high risk group of patients. [speaker005:] Right and a a G three P T A? [speaker004:] Erm well there quite a few of those and none of them progressed. [speaker002:] Microphone three. [speaker006:] , Chelmsford. If I come to you... at three months with a P T... A tumour, that's grade one or two, how long would you be... er willing to accept that I should have a recurrence before you treat it? How [speaker004:] But you sorry a G two? [speaker006:] A a... G one [speaker004:] G one [speaker006:] P T A tumour. How how soon should I get it treated? Does it matter [speaker004:] I think it probably... it probably doesn't. I mean the r the risk of progression is i i I would think is minuscule... erm and erm you're only talking about changes in size not risk of... of... erm muscle invasion, and I think therefore [speaker006:] So if it's not causing me any symptoms I should? [speaker004:] No what I'm say what I'm saying is... that that leaving it for a few months probably isn't going to do you any harm. I mean clearly it will continue to grow and therefore any that you do will be will be greater. the longer you leave it... [speaker001:] I do think answer for that one er erm I'm not aware of any paper that's published presenting that and we came as close as we could to answering that but nobody really knows for sure. [recording ends]

[Neville:] Okay what can we do for you? [Geoffrey:] Erm... I don't know where to start to tell you the truth.... I take it you're the expert on employment law? [Neville:] I do a fair amount of employment yes. [Geoffrey:] Well that that is what I'm solely here for. [Neville:] Mhm. [Geoffrey:] Erm... I work for a company Limited [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] or or did... erm... for the last five and a half six years. Three and a half years ago I was promoted to manager.... [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] Last September... erm... I was accompanied... by another manager so in effect there's two managers... running the place. [Neville:] [noise traffic] Was he a new er appointment? [Geoffrey:] I beg your pardon? [Neville:] Was he a new appointment? [Geoffrey:] That's right yeah. [Neville:] he'd worked for before? [Geoffrey:] Erm... yeah for a short period of time... perhaps about two years ago. It was very very short and certainly not in that capacity anyway. [Neville:] Right.... [Geoffrey:] When he came along... erm... was about... he was more or less asked what terms he wanted and... said that he was no to show no favouritism. I was given a pay rise because they wanted him as well, you see. Part of that was a company car. Erm... I'll men I'll mention him by name, it is a Mr. [Neville:] Mr? [Geoffrey:] . [Neville:] How do you spell that? [Geoffrey:] [spelling] [] [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] [clears throat] Erm... at this stage for the simple reason that together with the... erm promotion package, together with the wages package, we was both given a company car. Now... at this point... Mr after having his either his third or fourth dri drink drive, just come out of court six month [noise traffic] had come out of prison after doing a three month stretch... for drink driving. [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] S but... what they say is part of his managerial status demanded him having a company car... to which I was given one as well but in effect that then became his wife's because he was still banned for drink driving.... Yeah? [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] You with me so far? [Neville:] Yeah go ahead. [Geoffrey:] ... Erm... on the... on the twenty third or thereabouts on the twenty third of March of this year... [sound of chair squeaking] I myself got stopped for drink driving. It was erm... close, very close. [Neville:] Do you know what the reading was? [Geoffrey:] Erm... I think it was either forty four or forty six. [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] Er... the blood blood count, because it did go for blood count, the blood count was er ninety three. [Neville:] Yeah, okay. [Geoffrey:] Erm... [Neville:] So you got a twelve month ban [noise traffic]? [Geoffrey:] Well [clears throat] I then.... don't make the appointments you see. [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] And I spoke to... erm who appointed Mr to... take the case for me. [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] As... as a direct result of it erm... without anything about it... erm... Mr in court... just wanted to get in and out. He accepted the twelve month ban, fair enough. [Neville:] I see. [Geoffrey:] [noise traffic] I I got a twelve month ban anyway. Erm... the managing director... in front of Mr... erm... said to me, It won't affect your wages... but what we will ask is that you give the company car back until a period of time that your wife passes a test... in which case... it can be... given to your wife as indeed managerial status... Mr. [Neville:] ... Yeah. [Geoffrey:] Mm.... On the seventh of June... it took this long to get to. On the seventh of June... I got my statutory twelve months. [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] Erm... on the seventeenth of June... I was told that there was gonna be a meeting on the eighteenth... erm to which I would have to appear concerning my drink driving. On the eighteenth of June attended this meeting erm perhaps this on rather than you jotting down [Neville:] [cough] [Geoffrey:] Perhaps enlighten you more. But... [sound of paper being unfolded] although this says... [reading] minutes of the meeting [] it's not actually minutes of the meeting. It's just notes taken because after things that appeared on here. [Neville:] You don't accept them as being accurate? [Geoffrey:] N no they're quite accurate but the relevant details are missing. [Neville:] ... Okay let's have a look. What does do? [Geoffrey:] aerials and satellites [Neville:] [reading]... [] ... Er C T D what does that stand for? [Geoffrey:] Er that's the managing director's initials. [Neville:] What's his name? [Geoffrey:] Er Charles. [Neville:] ... Does seem a bit ironic that he disapproves of drink driving and then [noise traffic] prison sentences [Geoffrey:] Precisely. [Neville:] [noise traffic] [Geoffrey:] Well... I don't know but it's there's certainly a lot of favouritism there. Erm... so basically he's still there and they've got rid of me... making it as an excuse but... Charles as partner... is his brother, Nicholas. Now whatever Nick brought up doesn't appear in there as if Nick never spoke. [Neville:] Wh what did he tell you? [Geoffrey:] Erm... it's hard just off hand but h he mentions several several things. What they're saying is that Colin was purely administration. I mean I've never needed a new licence for the last three and a half years but Nicholas... erm... prior to this in the countdown... to me appearing for my drink drive which is in a matter of about ten weeks I believe [clears throat] in the countdown to that, Nick said on several o two occasions anyway while other members of staff were present, Well this is a way of getting rid of him without having to pay him redundancy money.... and that was in front of witnesses. But all the while I was led to believe by this statement... another thing is that [cough]... the day that made the made the appointment for me to appear, sorry are you reading? [Neville:] No carry on, mm. [Geoffrey:] The day that made the appointment to see and Co, Nick... after coming out of that meeting with Nick, we called in at the office, myself and my wife, and whilst I was tidying some things up because I'd got the remainder of the afternoon off, Charles' wife said to my wife, my wife actually broke down in tears, and she says, What's up? Is... is it just because of this drink drive? and my wife Lorraine said, Well it is yeah. And she says, Well don't upset yourself about it because worse things has happened than this. Think of Colin and his predicament. Also it may be a godsend to you because as soon as you drive that car becomes yours. Straightforward conversation wife to wife, well... again she must have been told that by her husband to even mention it. [Neville:] ... [clears throat] What's his wife's name? [Geoffrey:] Shirley. [Neville:] Is she er involved in the company? [Geoffrey:] Yeah she's erm company secretary I believe. [Neville:] [cough] When you say that er... said that this was a way of getting rid of you without paying you redundancy who was present at that... who overheard him say that? [Geoffrey:] Erm it was myself, Paul an employee, erm... a couple of other employees who I believe to be Dave and. [Neville:] Any of those still with the company? [Geoffrey:] All three. [Neville:] ... Do you have a copy of your contract of employment or terms of employment. [Geoffrey:] No that's another thing. I've never had a contract of employment in the six years that I've been there but erm [door knock]... less than forty eight hours after all this happened every employee was issued with a contract of employment. Now Paul this is what I've found out since you see, Paul erm said to them, Why suddenly this? and he says, Oh we've actually had them printed for the last two years but we've never had the time to give them out. [Neville:] ... Mr 's status is identical his abilities are different and it's necessary to have a manager who is mobile. What's the difference between you and Mr? [Geoffrey:] Well Mr never been before at least I've done it for the first few years that I was there. Been out in the field done all the... erm... and worked my way up to it you see. [Neville:] This R A F Wittering job that they are referring to [clears throat] S S W F C [Geoffrey:] Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. [Neville:] Right. Erm... do they involve you travelling out there on a regular basis? [Geoffrey:] Well... on the Wittering job... he said he wanted somebody there... you know er myself as manager to oversee the job... but on the Sheffield Wednesday job, incidentally I'd I got the contract from them both, the Sheffield Wednesday job was done I'd only ever had to visit it once and that was at my request not at anybody else's and either way... both erm the Wittering and the Sheffield Wednesday er there have been other drivers going. Er I have never had to... go solely on my own so to speak. [Neville:] Have you actually gone solo? [Geoffrey:] Er I've followed them down but the vehicle... I could have got in another vehicle. [Neville:] Isn't the argument gonna be that you make sure everything's okay and then you come back again. [Geoffrey:] I have spent all day there. All the lads leave at the exactly the same time that I leave.... But that's how it's been happening anyway. [Neville:] Mm a bit more information. Erm can you give me your full name and date of birth. [Geoffrey:] It's Geoffrey Alan [Neville:] Is that G or J? [Geoffrey:] G. [Neville:] ... And date of birth? And your address at the moment? [Geoffrey:] street,. [Neville:] And are you on the telephone there? [Geoffrey:] . Now after that [Neville:] Erm whoa whoa can I have some more information off you please [Geoffrey:] I'm sorry [Neville:] first. [cough] Er... what were you originally employed as by the [Geoffrey:] Aerial engineer. [Neville:] ... And three and a half years ago y you were promoted to manager. What's what's your actuals... title, is it just manager or is it something else? It's in a reference here to something. [Geoffrey:] Manager. [Neville:] Internal field manager. [Geoffrey:] Manager stroke coordinator. [Neville:] ... What's your pay? Wh what? [Geoffrey:] Erm... two fifty basic [Neville:] Per week? [Geoffrey:] Per week, plus commission. [Neville:] And what was your average take home? [Geoffrey:] Erm... it touched... it touched twenty grand last year. Or nineteen and a half something like that. [Neville:] And you got a company car as a benefit as well? [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] Was there a pension scheme? [Geoffrey:] Erm... yeah, but... it was there was something that only certain employees [sound of tearing paper] that time the start of the pension like myself, erm... I have to pay five pound a week after tax for my pension. [Neville:] It is a contributory scheme? [Geoffrey:] That's right and they paid some child [Neville:] Any other benefits paying erm... BUPA? [Geoffrey:] No. [Neville:] Private health? [Geoffrey:] No. [Neville:] Telephone home telephone? Okay. Erm normal hours per week how many hours a week were you working? [Geoffrey:] Ooh... erm... hard to say. That that figure does include overtime erm [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] The basic... hours are forty two and a half [Neville:] [clears throat] And when did they actually terminate the employment did it take effect from the eighteenth of June or what? [Geoffrey:] No that was that was the Friday and as it says th well I don't know if it says there or not, but they said... what would happen, they'd think about it over the weekend and they'd contact me the Monday afternoon... erm... to make a final decision. The Monday evening they phone me up and said that... I was to attend another meeting on Tuesday which I believe were the twenty second [sniff] to which they said, We've thought about it and we've decided not to continue your employment. And a formal letter will follow. [Neville:] Have you ever had any discipline problems at all in the past? [Geoffrey:] Not that I can remember. [Neville:] Okay. [tel] [Geoffrey:] On the Tuesday I went in and they said that a letter would follow... right... that was on the... Tuesday the twenty first something like that, then I never heard nothing from them until... this came lunchtime post this Monday... recorded delivery. [Neville:] Twenty eighth. [reads letter handed to him]... [sniff] What we're saying here is er if you take an ex gratia payment you are not entitled to apply to the industrial tribunal. [Geoffrey:] I couldn't understand it because it contradicts itself twice. [Neville:] Yeah... saying that they're entitled to dismiss you without notice. [reading] We are going to give you one week's pay in respect of each couple of years of servi, years' service. [] If they've made you redundant that's what they have to do. They have to give you a week's pay for each year... that you have been employed them a as pay in lieu of notice. That's redundancy as opposed to dismissal. So they're saying this is an ex gratia payment in other words they're offering you that payment as er... some compensation for the fact that you've losing your job. But it says here should a tribunal require them to pay a basic award for compensation then that payment is on the basis that it's offered and accepted in satisfaction... er towards those payments. It's very clumsy language but I think what what they're saying is that... if you go to the tribunal and you get compensation, anything they pay you now is going to have to come off that. Erm but then later on th they're saying that you you're accepting it in full and final settlement.... [speaker003:] contributing towards [Neville:] towards these yeah it's not full and final settlement it's towards these payments. I don't understand this bit [reading] to pay a basic award of compensation following an order []. A tribunal will either re... instate you or it will say they have to pay compensation. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] It won't be both. [Geoffrey:] I I just didn't understand it that's come for the advice for you see. Well [clears throat] [Neville:] Well you got you got three months from the date... of termination which you can take as effect from the twenty second of June to make a claim to the industrial tribunal. Erm it's very much what I would term a fifty fifty case. The strongest argument we've got is that has got a driving record worse than yours and he has been taken on despite that record. Erm you are of equal management status your abilities are the same... erm why should you be differentiated... from him. Er that's your strongest argument. If he wasn't there then I would say that you you'd be on a sticky wicket, because most terms of employment say that if you er have a driving licence and you lose it then your employment will automatically finish. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] And virtually all contracts of employment where anybody is required to to drive during the course of their work should contain that clause from an employers point of view. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] [sniff] Now you've never had a... a contract of employment so that goes in favour as well. Erm we're entitled to ask them for er entitled to ask the tribunal to say what terms of employment wou w should have been. Erm the tribunal may well say that one of those clauses should be if you lose your driving licence you lose your job, so it's a fairly dangerous thing to apply to the tribunal to get terms of employment sorted out. The best advice I can give you is simply to go for unfair dismissal on the basis that you've got two managers who do exactly the same job, there's no need for you to go on site, there are other drivers that could get you there, therefore it's not necessary to finish your job simply because you've lost your licence. Erm even if we're wrong in that then they should have looked at alternative positions within the company which didn't require you to drive... erm... that's the basic advice at the moment. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. Th the the other thing erm reference that [clears throat] this other manager has not... at no occa on no occasion has that car been used for company use. [Neville:] Right. [Geoffrey:] Not even as f far as getting him to work in the morning. Some other employee has to go and fetch him in the morning [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] deliver him to work, take him home in the evening. That company... company car has never been used for company use.... Then the other argument... as I can see is that they've... led me to believe, I don I know you said that [cough] it's automatic twelve month ban, but... we just accepted that because I was led to believe that my job was safe. In certain circumstances if it is close it has been [sound of ambulance passing on street] [Neville:] Sorry say again? [Geoffrey:] I in certain circumstances if your job's on the line and that [Neville:] Only if only if you're a totter [Geoffrey:] Erm [Neville:] If you've had speeding disqualification er speeding points and you were up for disqualification because you'd totted up twelve points [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] then... you can argue what's called special hardship. You can't do that when it's a drink driving. [Geoffrey:] You can't. I see. [Neville:] It's an automatic twelve months. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] Nothing you can do about that. Has to be a ban. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] So I can't criticize... the decision of the court on that or... or the way the solicitors... dealt with it. I mean twelve months is is the minimum period it could have been more. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] You can't argue hardship on a drink drive. [Geoffrey:] No. [Neville:] [clears throat] Right well erm so y at the moment have they paid you up to date? [Geoffrey:] What they've paid me... wha what I'm entitled to... is erm... obviously my week's wage... that I've worked, fortnight's holiday pay [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] and then we have what we li call a floating week which is made up of five rest days, you can have them at any time... yeah to [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] make your third week. Now I've had two of those rest days... prior to all this so I would be owed a fortnight's holiday pay plus three rest days. What they've sent me is erm... a week's wage and my three rest days but no holiday pay. [Neville:] you're not this so called ex gratia payment. [Geoffrey:] No. I've not contacted them. I mean I suppose I could contact them and say yeah I'll take that. [Neville:] I think you've got to be careful how you word the letter on that because what I don't want you to do is to say yes okay and then find you're blocked on an industrial tribunal application. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] So what I would suggest is that we reply to to this for you. Puts them on notice that you've been to see a solicitor. [Geoffrey:] They may withdraw it then. [Neville:] Yeah they might. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] That's a risk. At the end of the day it's a matter for you. I mean if you want to make sure you've got that in your hand I would simply say to you [Geoffrey:] You see [Neville:] make sure it's done so that you're not prejudicing your industrial tribunal case by saying that you'll accept the ex gratia payment but you also reserve the right to take legal advice about the termination of your employment. Something along those lines. [Geoffrey:] Mm. You see er what I'm worried about is that... erm... basically I wanted to see you first... before I even answered it before I phoned them up and say yeah okay or wha what have you. Erm the simple reason is I've been signing on, erm they've suspended my unemployment. I've got a wife and two children. [Neville:] Yeah. Does your wife work or not? [Geoffrey:] No. Y y you could say no. [Neville:] How old are your children? [Geoffrey:] Er... four and nine. I've got one I pay maintenance on as well. [Neville:] And how much are you paying in maintenance? [Geoffrey:] Well th that's not a court order that's just straight out out of my bank account into her bank account. [Neville:] What do you pay? [Geoffrey:] Ten pound a week. [Neville:] So at the moment with the earning that they paid you up to date two hundred and fifty quid I can't give you reduced advice under the legal aid system at the moment because you're still being paid. As soon as that stops and you've got no income [Geoffrey:] Well that was last week. I've had nothing this week. [Neville:] So you've got no income... as of today's date. [Geoffrey:] Er well I don't know. I don't know if I've got that fortnight's holiday pay to come or what. [Neville:] [sound of paper being crumpled] Have you got any savings at all anywhere. [Geoffrey:] Er ha... well I've got a bit in my building society account [Neville:] Does th those savings exceed one thousand six hundred and thirty five pounds? [Geoffrey:] I think there's about two grand in there but [Neville:] Mm. I Alright I'll just stop you there. I can't give you reduced cost advice at the moment but it may be that in two or three weeks' time your s situation... has changed to the extent where I can. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] Now I can advise you in the office under the green form system... if you are eligible for it because you... you've got no income coming in and your savings are below one thousand six hundred quid. [Geoffrey:] Right. [Neville:] That covers me for office work to negotiate to try and settle this case. It covers me for the preparation work to an industrial tribunal. It will not cover me for the hearing. Legal aid is not available in any form for industrial tribunal hearings... erm so what I usually say is that we assist the client up to the stage... where s it means going... er to the tribunal itself. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] And then if er you want a so solicitor with you on that day we'll have to come to some arrangement with you privately about the costs. But today's date even that doesn't apply because you you're category's above the level at which I can give you advice. [Geoffrey:] Yeah but that's only because I er I owe a grand in poll tax you see. [Neville:] Right well as soon as you can come to me and say, I've no longer got that amount [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] we can you sign you up to one of these green forms. I can't do it today. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] Erm [cough] er basically I'm going to h have to boot you out because I've got somebody else waiting for me. [Geoffrey:] Right that's fine. [Neville:] Erm you've got to make a decision what to do. Er erm I wo obviously make sure you keep hold of those cos I'll want copi of those if you want me to do anything more for you. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] Erm I would suggest that if you are going to contact them yourself about this, that you make sure it's done without prejudice. Put it in writing marked, Without prejudice [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] erm to your rights to apply to an industrial tribunal. Erm and then y you know you get your cash and [noise traffic] three months from... twenty second of June to do something about it. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. Right. But... you would certainly accept it for now then? [Neville:] Yeah I think you've got a case worth pursuing. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] I don't know how strong it is because as I say, erm most contracts of employment do... include a provision that if somebody h has a driving licence and loses it and driving is part of their work, even if it's only a minor part of their work, then the employer can... erm... dismiss. [Geoffrey:] Well what they said to me was [Neville:] But your advantage is you've got no em contract of employment. [Geoffrey:] But wh what they said to me was although... erm... although it's not a driving is not a major part of and your role was changing and whatever that means [Neville:] And you didn't know that did you? [Geoffrey:] Well plus plus the fact that erm... it's not that you haven't got one, or it's not that we'd need you to drive... it's that you're denying us the privilege... of being able to send you. [Neville:] Mm. Well there is some argument in that, but, you know they should be looking at alternatives... somebody to drive you out... the sites where they, the whole time they would take you there and bring you back. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] It seems to apply doesn't it? [Geoffrey:] Plus that other thing that... was at... you know that it... it stated it's a way of getting rid of him without redundancy. [Neville:] Yeah sure. I mean if you can come up with the witnesses that are prepared to stick their head in the noose and say that. That's going to be your problem because they're all still wor working for the company. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] But if you can get somebody to come along and say that then er erm y your case gets a lot stronger.... Okay? So I'll leave it with you. [Geoffrey:] It's just that I I'm finding it... well I'm not. My wife's getting... very upset about it, the whole affair and everything like that [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] And er I don't know whether to... it's it's the money aspect of it because if my... unemployment's stopped [Neville:] Well we'll stop [Geoffrey:] I mean [Neville:] at eight weeks, say they stop it by erm [Geoffrey:] Twenty six [Neville:] twenty six, it's these days [Geoffrey:] Or up to twenty six anyway. [Neville:] Er do... they should give you income support as opposed to unemployment benefit. [Geoffrey:] Yeah but even that it's... it's ridiculously low. [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] Erm. [Neville:] In terms of h h what's your objective. Er do you want to go back and work for them, is that the m the main thing so you've got your job back, cos if you claim compensation th the basic... award is equivalent to redundancy which it sound as though they may well... pay about of half that to you. Erm that's if you prove your case. You'd get a basic award equivalent to what would happen if you were made redundant. On top of that you get compensation which is a maximum of ten thousand pounds and depends on... erm... whether you've got another job, erm... whether you've contributed towards your own dismissal, and I think th the tribunal would knock something off for that. A at a guess I would think they would probably give you about three to six months' worth of pay... as compensation, if [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] you proved your case. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] So it's not a vast amount in comparison with having no job. [Geoffrey:] No no but it goes somewhere near half way I mean [Neville:] a question of whether you can go back [Geoffrey:] the the reasoning being that... I've gone into the aspects of... erm income support and that and... basically i it's about seventy pound a week to live on. [Neville:] Yeah, yeah. [Geoffrey:] Now which is upsetting my wife. But in the mean time my wages I've had last week have been spent [Neville:] Mm. [Geoffrey:] I don't know... I don't know how long income support's going to be, I don't know how long my next pay packet's gonna be or what have you. [Neville:] The sooner you're on income support again I can sign you up to one of these green forms, so I can give you some advice on that. [Geoffrey:] You can? [Neville:] Yeah. I can then advise you. [Geoffrey:] Well I filled all the forms in and that it's just a matter of delivering. [Neville:] Yeah. Your capital at the moment takes you just over so... you know once your capital's below sixteen hundred quid [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] I can then sign you up to that. [Geoffrey:] Mm. [Neville:] It won't cost you for my advice. Well what I'll do is I'll stick it in my diary for a couple of weeks. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. Would you [Neville:] Y [Geoffrey:] Would you recommend that [clears throat] I got rid of some of it then by... paying my poll tax or... doing something with it or use the money to live off? [Neville:] [sigh] It's very difficult to advise you isn't it? I d th the natural inclination is to say [LAUGHTER] use it t to live off [] because you don't have a problem over the next twenty six weeks. [Geoffrey:] Mm.... Mm. And then again... if they pay me this money... as an ex gratia payment. [Neville:] You have to tell the D S S. [Geoffrey:] Or, I've got to... get rid of that as well haven't I? [Neville:] Mm.... But I think you've got a case which I... I would say is fifty fifty. It's one... that we can perhaps put a bit of pressure on if we issue an application for you by getting ACAS involved and seeing whether ACAS can either get you back there or er... get you a compensation off them. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] So they'll be in trouble to start with cos they had no contracts of employment out at that time. [Geoffrey:] Yeah. So... what do you want me to do for now then? [Neville:] Well... you follow up what you want to do with the company when you've thought about what I've said to you [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] erm... let me know what you do [Geoffrey:] Yeah. [Neville:] erm and then I can put together [Geoffrey:] Contact you within the next fortnight something [Neville:] Yeah. [Geoffrey:] like that? [Neville:] Yeah and I'll put together er a tribunal claim for you. Get it to you... for checking. [Geoffrey:] Thanks for your help. [Neville:] Okay. [Geoffrey:] Okay then. [Neville:] Right. Just let me know what you want to do and... we'll put it together for you. [Geoffrey:] Okay then. Thanks then. [Neville:] Cheers.

[Neville:] Erm... okay first things first, can I just have your full name please? [Sarah:] Sarah [Neville:] Is that [spelling] []? [Sarah:] [spelling] [] [Neville:] [spelling] [] erm and your date of birth please. [Sarah:] [gives date of birth] [Neville:] And your address? Yeah. And are you on the phone there? [Sarah:] No. [Neville:] Okay just so I can assess whether I can give you reduced cost advice under the legal aid system, are you working at all at the moment? Do you receive income support? Okay, [clears throat] what we'll do then is get you to sign... this form here, we call it a green form fairly obviously from its colour and that means that I can do up to erm about eighty six pounds worth of er a bit more depending on on what we have to do, and you don't have to pay us anything... towards that. I take it as you are on income support you've got no savings at all. [Sarah:] no. [Neville:] Okay could you sign that for me please down the bottom there.... Right what can we do for you? [Sarah:] I was advised by a policeman custody advice. [Neville:] Okay. Er can you give me the... name of the father of the child? [Sarah:] Alan [Neville:] Alan? [Sarah:] [spelling] [] [Neville:] And his address? [Sarah:] . [Neville:] ? [Sarah:] . [Neville:] And the child's name? [Sarah:] Ricky. [Neville:] R I C K I? [Sarah:] Y. [Neville:] Okay. No middle name? [Sarah:] Alan. [Neville:] . And his date of birth? Er and does he suffer from any serious illness or disability? [Sarah:] No. [Neville:] ... Right er custody no longer exists, it's called something else. Erm what you apply for if if it goes to court is what's called a residence order, and what you would probably know as access [Sarah:] Yeah. [Neville:] is known as contact. Okay all the rules changed er... bout about a year ago now. S are you having problems at the moment with with the father? [Sarah:] Well erm when I was living with him [Neville:] Yeah. [Sarah:] he assaulted me a f few times and the last time he did it I... involved the police and he was in court last Thursday and he was found guilty of assault. And that's the only time I've seen him since Boxing Day last year. [Neville:] Convicted last Thursday? [Sarah:] Yeah. [Neville:] What happened to him, do you know? [Sarah:] Erm... got fined a hundred and ninety six pounds and has got to pay me fifty pound compensation. [Neville:] ... Apart from that you separated in December... ninety two. [Sarah:] Mm [Neville:] Erm did you say Boxing Day? [Sarah:] Yeah. That's the last time he saw Ricky as well. He's never been in contact. [Neville:] ... Erm are you expecting a problem from him? [Sarah:] that's why I was advised to come and do this? [Neville:] Right, what are you expecting to happen? [Sarah:] Well he doesn't know where I live at the but it came up in court that he was going to... take me to court for access, making it out as though it was my fault that he hadn't seen Ricky, I was stopping him from seeing Ricky when... it's his own fault. I've been told by... numerous friends of his that he doesn't want anything to do with Ricky at all, that he's said [noise traffic]. [Neville:] ... Why do you think... that he said said to court he was gonna go for? [Sarah:] I don't know it's just... I think he's trying to make me out as a bad mother [Neville:] Did he ever use any violence on the child... towards the child? [Sarah:] Well he's hit me while I've had my kid in my arms and... quite a few times. He's never actually gone... to harm Ricky. [Neville:] ... [sniff] Does he work? [Sarah:] No. [clears throat] [Neville:] [cough] Have the Child Support Agency had an interview with you yet? [turning through paper]... because from April this year... er they are... pursuing all absent fathers for maintenance. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Neville:] Even if he is not working they will want er I think it's two pounds twenty a week out of him. [Sarah:] [noise traffic] last I knew it was five pence a year. [Neville:] Yes it's it's all changed. But the Child Support Agency deal with that and courts don't deal with maintenance these days. [Sarah:] Mm.... He he has said if I do... go for maintenance he'll deny that Ricky's his. [Neville:] There's nobody else it can be is there? [Sarah:] . [Neville:] Okay this is erm... an application for full legal aid... so that we can deal with an application for residence. Can you just sign that for me... down the bottom there? I have to say I'm a little doubtful as to whether legal aid will be granted because [clears throat] the courts now take... the view that if there's no contest between you and him as to who's going to look after the child, then they won't... make a court order. They will only make a court order if there are major problems. Erm... for instance if he's asking for the child to go to live with him... and you oppose that then... then court would make a decision as to where the child s should live. Er in terms of contact they will also make a decision giving days and times of contact if it can't be worked out between the two of you. [Sarah:] Mm. [clears throat] [Neville:] Er but otherwise it won't interfere. It'll leave it to you... er both to make any arrangements on contact. I take it from what you say that you don't want him to see the child? Well? [Sarah:] No not really because he's he's a heavy drinker [Neville:] Aha. [Sarah:] and when he's been drinking he's very violent. And I definitely don't want him to have him at weekends because that's when he's at his worst. He plays football... as well. He's got a daughter from a previous relationship and he used to have her at weekends and he used to leave her all the time... so he could go and play football and go out drinking. [Neville:] ... the name of that child? [Sarah:] Rachel. [Neville:] Rachel what? Okay. [sniff] There's two things we can do. We can either... that's the wrong way to phrase it. We can either do nothing... erm and just wait and see whether he... com comes back to you and says I want access contact to er to Ricky, erm in which case we can then do something about it. Erm or we can make application for legal aid to go to court for... a residence and contact order now. The disadvantage of doing that to my mind is it simply prompts him into doing something. [Sarah:] Mm. [Neville:] It may be that what he's said in court is... purely something to get back at you and he doesn't really mean it. [Sarah:] Well I was advised to do this because m my Dad's a policeman [Neville:] Yeah. [Sarah:] and he thinks because I've... he's pleaded had to plead guilty in court [Neville:] Yeah. [Sarah:] That's he's gonna come back at me cos like I've got one over him [Neville:] Right. [Sarah:] and he thinks he's gonna come back at me somehow. [Neville:] [sniff] I think on balance I mi I... my advice... is that we do nothing, just wait and see if whether he contacts you at all. [Sarah:] Mm. [Neville:] Erm... firstly because as I say it may prompt him into doing something if we write to him saying you're making an application to court yourself. Erm he may... then decide well I'm gonna do something about it. Erm and secondly because a court won't interfere if th if er... there's no need to. [Sarah:] Mm. [Neville:] No need to protect the child. You have all the rights as a mother. You have what's called parental responsibility. Erm he has nothing at all because he's... never been married to you. So... the only way in which he can have any rights at all to Ricky apart from you agreeing, is to go to court himself, erm and I'm inclined just to say lets see what he does. If he does make an application to court then at that stage we can er... we can oppose... his application. [Sarah:] Mm. [Neville:] Erm... it may be that what he said in court was purely bluff. Er I what I don't want to do is to prompt him into... [Sarah:] Yeah. [Neville:] taking some action himself. Now if he does come round and creates a nuisance [Sarah:] He doesn't know where I live. [Neville:] Well [Sarah:] The only way he can contact me is through my grandma or my Mum. [Neville:] Mm well if he finds out where you are, or even if he visits relatives and starts making threats saying he's gonna get you or he's er... assault you, or he's gonna hurt the child, anything like that, then er... the first thing obviously is to contact the police to warn him off and secondly contact me, cos we'll then be able to apply for an injunction to stop him coming anywhere near you. [Sarah:] Mm. [Neville:] that stage hasn't been reached you see because [phone rings] you've not seen him since Boxing Day. [Sarah:] Apart from last year [Neville:] [tel]... Right... so I think really I've said about... everything I need to say. er you follow the... follow my argument. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Neville:] Erm... I think we'll just wait and see what he does. If he starts creating harassment for you let us know and we'll stop him. [Sarah:] Okay then. [Neville:] Okay. [Sarah:] Right thanks. [speaker003:] Thank you very much. [Sarah:] Bye. [speaker003:] Bye. [Neville:] Bye. [recording ends]

[Neville:] We've got a hearing coming up on the sixteenth of July in [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] in Norwich or wherever it is. Erm... we've... sent all the paperworks... down to er an agent there and we've still not heard from the other solicitors as to what this... erm... [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] thing is... but I'm pretty sure I can identify it... [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] from the stuff that's now been introduced to us. Cos there is there appears to have been a display kitchen at some stage. [speaker002:] So I gathered after Mr and Mrs were. [Neville:] Yeah. Erm... just track the letter down where he said that.... between February and March nineteen ninety.... Two five eight nine seven two in which exactly er the amount that was [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] .... Now I can't identify what these numbers mean but I think it relates to [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] erm a display kitchen. It it says [reading] display account []. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] ... Erm [reading] creative cuisine, kitchen-wise []. But i this was actually addressed to erm the Mansfield address. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] So maybe that's why... it's not come to light before. Erm... I presume that... the s are right in saying that this this relates to the display account at at Newark. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah. [Neville:] I mean I dunno whether you whether you you may want to [speaker002:] Well well I I as I er as both myself and my wife understood it, everything had been paid and then obviously when we got the letter saying we owed this amount of money it didn't come to light till Mr and Mrs came to see you [Neville:] [cough] [speaker002:] and said yeah. [Neville:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But they... discrepancies on their side as well with credits owed and all. I mean I had nothing at all to do with t'business except I went in partnership with me wife and that. [Neville:] Right. [speaker002:] So er obviously I didn't know anything about the money owed... or we would've endeavoured to pay it off straight away when we went to the bank er originally when it went... when it folded. [Neville:] Right. Erm... there's two points really. First of all you've got to be satisfied that that actually relates to the unit that was at at Newark. [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] ... And as I say the curiosity is that it it was actually addressed to Mansfield.... Erm I don't represent Mr and Mrs as you know, although they've been in to give us a witness statement. [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] Erm you're fairly... Are you're fairly confident that they're... not telling us a porky about this? [speaker002:] ... [cough] Well I honestly don't know. We've had erm... I wouldn't say a fall out but er we're on frosty terms to say the least. [Neville:] Right. [speaker002:] This is doing me no good at all whereas it seems to be all me and my wife it's... but like we went to court, Mr and Mrs who were equally involved in it [Neville:] Sure. [speaker002:] are not, you know, haven't been petitioned or anything. [Neville:] Don't worry, I've told the solicitors that are appearing for us on the sixteenth of July that that's the situation, that the have not joined in all of the partners [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] joined in too and that they they really ought to be invited to put the s in the frame as well. Erm... so I think this hearing on the sixteenth of July will be quite useful in trying to be able to i identify that this display unit relates to Newark and not to Mansfield. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] Assuming for the moment that is right then obviously that sum is is outstanding [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] er and to avoid racking up costs which is a thing that worries me [speaker002:] That that's what I come to see ya yeah. [Neville:] erm I think that some sort of offer ought to be made. Now we we've got these suggestions that you have problems with late the later deliveries from [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] which created... inconvenience at the least and expense in you having to buy units from elsewhere [noise traffic] customs. Er if we're doing the job properly as I said to you before we really need the invoices for various [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] customers and how much it's actually cost you to put the jobs right. Erm... but taking a very broad approach to it it may be that we can suggest to the receivers of that... erm... taking the inconvenience, the extra cost and so on, roughly say half of that account erm [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] can be wiped out. Er and and just going through my mind at the moment [speaker002:] Is that like settling out of court cos that's [speaker003:] On yes [speaker002:] I would settle for that. [Neville:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] As you know I mean I'm... only a working man [Neville:] Yeah. [speaker002:] wi not an extortionate amount of wages and we've just had this two hundred pound for the to be transferred to Mansfield. [Neville:] Sorry what's that? [speaker002:] Erm... well I bought in two hundred pound on account for my cost to you and then [Neville:] Oh yes I'm sorry, yeah that's right [speaker002:] Had a letter [Neville:] Yeah [speaker002:] this weekend for another two hundred pound for... if I get it right is it to fetch it over to Mansfield or their [Neville:] newsagents over in Norwich and [speaker002:] Yeah yeah [Neville:] obviously you don't want to pay us to travel over there [speaker002:] No [Neville:] So erm I'm just throwing this out as an idea that we perhaps we offer one half of this amount here [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] erm each side to pay its own costs [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] and we get the s to pay half of the half. [speaker002:] ... Yeah. Well if worst comes to worst and they don't accept that [Neville:] Aha. [speaker002:] speaking on my own for my own personal point of view erm if they if they insist they want this full amount [Neville:] Yeah. [speaker002:] would it be possible for me to pay my half of that and the s pay the other half because I'm not i it it's really started to worry me and concern me a lot [Neville:] I'm [speaker002:] now [Neville:] I'm sure that's right and includes a lot of interest as well [speaker002:] That's right yeah [speaker003:] [pages of paper being turned over] [speaker002:] building up every day really. I mean [Neville:] The object as far as I'm concerned is to try and kill it as quickly [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] as we can cos of the cost side... erm... I'm not happy about the way they've drawn up the writ because it doesn't say precisely wh it doesn't say what that invoice says it's only [speaker002:] No. [Neville:] because we've done some digging around that we've actually got that information [speaker002:] Mm. [Neville:] it doesn't say it it was at Newark... erm and I think you've got reasonable prospects of knocking it back because of the problems you had with towards the end. So I think you know erm [speaker002:] we've got no proof they were labelled deliveries or customers complaints or [Neville:] Er I mean the interest is one thousand one hundred quid so [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] we're talking about three six aren't you at the end of the day that's what they're trying to apply for. Erm... [sniff] I'll start on the basis that we offer one two fifty. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] What I want to do is clear that with Mr and Mrs as well pay half of that [speaker002:] Yeah. I think [noise traffic] [Neville:] So does that sound okay to you? [speaker002:] It sounds very good yeah... [cough] [Neville:] But you're saying anywhere between those two figures personally you will pay half of the two thousand five hundred and eighty nine [speaker002:] Just to finish it off yeah. I mean if they insist they want all that I mean I'll if they insist they want the interest as well then I'm in er a bit of a spot [Neville:] Yeah.... Okay leave it with me. I'll er telephone them possibly I'll telephone them tomorrow and see whether we can sort something out. [speaker002:] Thanks a lot them Mr. [Neville:] Okay I'll be in touch. [speaker002:] I feel a little bit better at least. [Neville:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Thank you anyway. [Neville:] Alright. [speaker002:] Cheerio then. [Neville:] Ta-ta. [speaker002:] Er shall I pop in tomorrow with the two hundred pound for Norwich then? [Neville:] Er yes if you wouldn't mind. [speaker002:] Okay then. [Neville:] It may be that we don't have to use all of that. Obviously you'll get a refund if I can solve [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neville:] this fairly quickly. [speaker002:] Okay then Mr. Thanks a lot. [Neville:] Alright. [speaker002:] Cheerio. [Neville:] Bye. [door closing]

[speaker001:] I am in fact a self-employed business advisor, management consultant [John:] Mm. [speaker001:] call me what you will.... Under contract TEC come here usually one day a week to... carry out these interviews... erm they poke me in any corner they can find. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [speaker001:] Erm... I started my business some nine years ago when I was unemployed under the Enterprise Allowance Scheme. Very much a rubber stamp exercise in those days and as a result of that only one in four of the businesses that were supported was actually surviving at the end of the first twelve months. [John:] Mm. [speaker001:] So when the Training and Enterprise Councils were given responsibility for a new stream of scheme they said quite rightly I think that... they would only support survivable businesses. They... wanted to ensure that people sufficient skill and training to run their own business and that they'd done their homework. That policy appears to be paying off... in as much the national survey run at the beginning of last year showed some seventy two percent of businesses were still there after eighteen months. And locally we carried out a similar exercise some six months ago which showed that eighty two percent of the businesses were still there after months. Still there, but not necessarily making a profit. [John:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay? [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] ... [cough] Right, you seem to be pretty well qualified. [John:] I hope so [LAUGHTER] yes [] erm [speaker001:] What made you... give up education? [John:] Erm quite frankly I erm... pulled out because of stress. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] It was a doctor's instruction basically. He... I I'd been to them over a... a period of about two years... erm with all sorts o of different problems and in the end he said, You know I can increase your drugs but that won't help. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] I know how to sort your problem. It's to remove you from the source of this, and that is the school you're working in. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] So I took his advice and left. [speaker001:] And you [sigh] are actually qualified to teach the organ? [John:] Organ, piano... erm harmony, theory anything to do with music basically. [speaker001:] I mean... did you progress to the organ through the piano or? [John:] Erm... yes and no. It's something that I worked on... er... independently as it were. My father who was a er a clergyman taught me the piano from an early age... and er I first became interested in the organ purely for money... purposes [LAUGHTER] in fact [], when at the age of fifteen a local methodist church in Durham where we lived at the time said er, We need an organist. We've heard you playing the piano for the local Sunday school... erm we'll pay you sixty pounds a year, which in nineteen fifty whatever it was a lot of money, provided you spend half of that having organ lessons. [LAUGHTER] And I duly accept their off accepted their offer. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] from that. [speaker001:] Erm we pay our church organist I think twelve pounds a year. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] it it varies from one to another I think. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] The Royal College of Organists wouldn't be pleased to hear [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker001:] And you have you own organ do you? Or [John:] No I've go I've got access to several in [speaker001:] Right. A cathedral organ or... [John:] Yes yeah. [speaker001:] Do you play in the cathedral yourself or? [John:] I have done in the past, not recently. There have been other things occupying [LAUGHTER] me recently []. [speaker001:] Right. Yeah.... And... do you find... I mean you mention somewhere in here that... you have... one or two potential clients. [John:] That's right. [speaker001:] Are any of those for the organ? [John:] One is yes. He's got his own organ at home erm [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] erm but essentially now I've discussed with him, as I mentioned in my... er plan, er the intention is to meet anybody who wants musical services and find out from them precisely what er they really need. He doesn't need organ lessons and I've advised him as such and he's accepted that. What he was particularly interested in is he's been taught the Yamaha method in fact [speaker001:] Right. [John:] where his right hand, he's a very confident music reader and plays but his left hand... he's merely sort of hangs there like a claw and plays the odd chord [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] and he wants the same facility with his left as with his right. So I am proposing with him to... er undertake a fairly simple but comprehensive business of reading the bass clef, using the left hand, and introducing it into the kind of music that he already plays, and at the same time getting him to play other music... as well, which he seems to be very happy.... [speaker001:] Right. Erm... organs are... classified by the number of stops they have or something, isn't it? [John:] Erm not necessarily no but er yes that that is partly important in that if it's not there you can't use it [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Mm. I mean... how do they... I'm just trying to remember because I... remember [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] having... a session with an organ builder right? [John:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [speaker001:] And he was talking about one two three four stops. Have I got the right term? [John:] Yes oh yes yes. A stop a stop is a misnomer because it's in fact a starter. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. [John:] When you draw it you allow... to enter that rank of pipes. [speaker001:] But what... okay some organs have one or two keyboards [John:] Two keyboards yes. [speaker001:] Some have four [John:] Right. [speaker001:] that I've seen. I mean... how do they categorize that? Does that relate to stops or what? [John:] No each each division is a separate... erm section of the organ in fact [speaker001:] Right. [John:] erm and in the traditional er properly made organ as it were, the pipe organ, erm each keyboard... er is available to you to play from. Each keyboard has its own ranks of pipes and each sound, each rank of pipes is controlled by one stop [speaker001:] Right. [John:] so that for instance you can have four stops on one keyboard, three on another... and the three... sounds that are available on this keyboard are available from those, the four sounds that are available [speaker001:] Okay. Plus the feet pedals? [John:] Plus the pedals.... And you can then also couple... between keyboards so that if you want to you can play... the... sounds from this keyboard on the lower one by coupling the two together and making them work... as a pair, but that removes the inde independency of being able to set one against the other. [speaker001:] You make an interesting comment about your wife's experiences that ones ends up with a private practice. What does she do? [John:] She's a piano teacher. [speaker001:] Oh right. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Okay.... [John:] Works from home. [speaker001:] So she can give you... her overspill work. [John:] Well... yes [LAUGHTER] yes []. [speaker001:] Okay. Alright. [John:] In... in fact one of my... one of the pupils I am proposing to work with he's one of her... people who have contacted her and she's... she's quite deliberately limiting the number of... her... days in the week she teaches to two. We have a son who still lives at home who in fact has been quite ill for a long time and... erm... she you know... the amount the work she has done therefore has been seriously limited. She's definitely erm... reduced it to two days a week. [speaker001:] Okay okay.... Er you will I think have one problem [sigh] er in working for the L E A. Erm I happen to be a school aid inspector and I'm finding now... quite a with er with the income tax people at the moment [John:] Mm. [speaker001:] because I'm self-employed... and you're intending to be self- employed which means you're [John:] That's right. [speaker001:] taxed under schedule er... D [John:] D [speaker001:] ... and I have just done some work for... Derbyshire and they have deducted... twe tax at twenty five per cent and for my invoice. Erm and the difficulty is proving to some of the L E As that you're actually self-employed. So you're gonna have to... if you do any work for L E As [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] set that up right at the beginning which means going to the Inland Revenue [John:] To the Inland Revenue yes. [speaker001:] and in our my case give a zero... or or an infinite, I'm not sure which way round they'd do it... erm tax coding which I find [John:] Mm. [speaker001:] annoying cos I sort of flared up with them and said, Well quote me the law, and they can't quote you the law I mean they... it's just someone who they seem to be we do it. [John:] conniving. [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] Well they're creating law I think. [speaker001:] Mm.... Yes. another issue. [John:] Now I've been told by other people who've er... erm gone down this route that I'm proposing to follow with L E As that erm... there are two ways round it. Either you've got to do what you're suggesting, go in right at the start and say, It's all sorted, here's the coding, this is what you will apply, the Inland Revenue have agreed it already, you... you know don't use your own system. Or you accept precisely what they do and claim it back at the end of the year. [speaker001:] Well you hope you claim it back at the end of the year. [John:] Well you hope you claim it back. [speaker001:] But you haven't got the use of that money in that, the government has. [John:] No of course, yes, yes. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] On principal I don't [LAUGHTER] like that idea []. [speaker001:] Now what are you going to do, I mean... you you've listed out here your marketing approach. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm... how much do you think you'll need to do that? [John:] Well quite an amount of it has been done already. Erm the the... talking about the the idea with various er colleagues and contacts within the Southwell area obviously continues. It works on a continuing basis. I was talking with a... erm... a... well she's not a colleague actually she's another piano teacher, only about two days ago while walking dogs, she's walking hers, I'm walking mine, and, Oh I see from your recent advert in the local paper you're accepting piano pupils. Yes erm [speaker001:] Ah I don I don't want to you've advertised. [John:] Yes. No well erm... this was a form of market research. [speaker001:] Right okay. [John:] It was try trying the waters... and er I merely, you know pla place placed a reference there saying erm, Was it possible? And er she said, I I have occasional requests, I'm full at the moment, erm would you mind if I passed some of my... enquiries on to you as and when they occur. perfectly alright, thank you very much. those contacts exist... erm... I ant anticipate publicity in communicating with local schools and other institutions and things like that and there after merely maintaining some kind of a... a a regular... advertisement slot in the local paper... that says, Yes I'm still here, because [LAUGHTER] people forget []. Erm perhaps operating a mail shot at the beginning of the academic year with the er... er appropriate educational and other institutions. It's be the best system for this kind of thing. My wife's never ever advertised in fact. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] People just got to know about her.... [speaker001:] Okay. [John:] ... In fact as far as local... education establishments are concerned, I've already had two enquiries from... direct enquiries from schools saying, Are you available? I'm not available yet... erm because I retired under erm health on health grounds. The authority refuses or did refuse to... consider me as a supply teacher in nay capacity until six months had passed. This was a ruling the Medical Officer... er instituted. But er because I've had requests I've approached them and said, Well... we'll get your documents released and see... see if we can speed matters up because use your experience. [speaker001:] happens, what about the public schools around? [John:] Public schools, there are only three or four fairly close. I've written to them all. Erm I've not had any replies [LAUGHTER] from any of them []. Erm... but I intend to er contact them again and say to them, Well you know I'm still here and should you... hit problems or find that you've just lost one of your... erm staff who were providing the kind of services that I do, don't forget that I'm still here. [speaker001:] Okay. Alrighty erm... I'll put it through as approved. Erm... a letter will... go from the powers that be here... er later today I should think. It certainly should get out today.... Erm... back to Newark Enterprise to tell them you've been accepted. [John:] Right. [speaker001:] The Business Plan will go back with the letter to them. I'll tell you why in a moment. Give them a ring on Friday to see... er that they've got the letter. If they have then organize a date and time mutually acceptable with them to go in and sign on. When you go to sign on you will need to take with you evidence of having opened up a business bank account. [John:] . [speaker001:] The Business Plan goes back with the letter because they... will... require a copy of the business plan so that they when they see you at three, six, twelve and eighteen months [John:] Right. [speaker001:] they can compare your books and your progress against the Business Plan [John:] . [speaker001:] and you will also need a copy if you haven't got one... have [John:] complete copy of everything I've given you. [speaker001:] [cough] So there's there's no problems. Right any questions, anything I can do to help you? [John:] Erm... actually I've spoken to Ian at erm Newark... TEC, and he's already arranged to see me tomorrow afternoon. [speaker001:] Now he... does tend to jump the. [John:] He's... quick off... quick off the mark. [speaker001:] I shall catch him out one day. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] He he he actually suggested that I might like to call and see him this afternoon but I wasn't available [LAUGHTER] for that so [] well [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [John:] tomorrow it would have to be. [speaker001:] Okay. [John:] Erm... apart from that no, unless you've got any other suggestions from your long experience as being a self-employed person by way of guidance. [speaker001:] Well the only thing I think you will need because you're going to go onto other people's premises and I [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] don't know if you've got it in here or not, it doesn't look as if you have, but you will need public liability insurance. [John:] That I'm organizing in that I have now... done a little bit more research. I've contacted the Musicians' Union and the Incorporated Society of Musicians. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Erm membership of the Incorporated Society of Musicians which comes at about seventy eight pounds a year does actually include public liability... [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] and I am making... I'm in the process at the moment of making application to be accepted by them. [speaker001:] I mean you you might fall over and smash his precious organ or something [John:] Oh this is true yes. [speaker001:] and er if he sues you er well at least you [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] would be covered for that sort of thing or [John:] No this this is covered. [speaker001:] with people coming into your house for instruction if they fall over the front door mat [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and break a hip or something you know then [John:] Well that's already covered in fact within our house because we... my wife as a [speaker001:] Ah... right, yes. [John:] teacher erm our we've already made sure that our own private [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] insurance does... cover that. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] Which she won't want to know about. [recording ends]

[John:] The er... gentleman said, Yes approved yesterday, Mr [Ian:] Good yes they nor they normally let you know there and then the the [John:] Right. [Ian:] the outcome I mean... it's very rare that we do get a refusal. [John:] Yes. It was... rather comical actually because he said er, You must now go and make an appointment to see Mr, and I said, Well actually we already ha [Ian:] We already have. [John:] He said, [LAUGHTER] I'll catch him out on this one []. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER]. [] Yes sometimes when we get people that are anxious to start immediately you know we make the [John:] Of course. [Ian:] interview there... there and then even before [John:] Mhm. [Ian:] we've actually got the the letter back saying, Yes we can sign [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] you... onto the scheme. Right, okay... like schemes there is quite a bit of paper work to do [John:] Okay. [Ian:] So this is actually... this first form here is an application for the scheme [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] so if you want to start sort of scribing [John:] Okay. [Ian:] away, and if there are any particular... queries on... that you want to ask, please do. In the meantime I shall... complete one or two of the others. [John:] Okay. In which case I will suspend this until the talking starts. [break in recording] One query only. [Ian:] Yes. [John:] Erm... will my business have any links with another business? Erm [Ian:] In the context of the Enterprise Allowance Scheme... no no no no. [John:] Probably not. Yeah. [Ian:] . [John:] Because I I wondered wha to what extent those... those links were in that I shall have... obviously informal links an and talks with other people who are doing similar things... than what [Ian:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] I'm doing, but they're not formal business links. [Ian:] No no. So that'd no that that's quite alright. [John:] Please check and make sure I've done things [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] . [Ian:] I don't know who reads all these forms [LAUGHTER] anyway [] but erm... [John:] [LAUGHTER] Well th they're there in case they're needed I think you see [Ian:] Yes that's it. And the government auditors actually sort of er... come round. [John:] I I misread previous... the word previous [Ian:] Word previous. [John:] in that.... These are... these are estimates? [Ian:] Yes yeah it's basically a question there... to ensure that people don't just put down that they're whatever they're doing just purely [John:] Wal walking the streets for twenty four hours [LAUGHTER] a week []. [Ian:] Yes. I it's to cover the other things like doing the book keeping, [John:] Yes. [Ian:] doing the marketing and your advertising and general [John:] Yeah, yeah. [Ian:] networking. It's not just purely.... yeah. Yes. [John:] Well I haven't included the advertising of things in that. Maybe I should? [Ian:] ... [reading] Erm sole trader, yes.... previous employer, yes. [] Right. [John:] There will be [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] in that Nottinghamshire County Council was my previous employer. I've actually heard from them today [Ian:] Good. [John:] from the... Personnel department asking for details of what I was offering because the... medical reports had now gone to the medical officer. They could see no reason why he would turn them down and they're setting the paperwork in motion to put [Ian:] Good, right, right. [John:] me on the appropriate lists. So er... that's coming. [Ian:] Do we have any indications... approximate percentage or... [John:] I've said to them that I'm prepared to work for them. Obviously I'm limited by the terms of my... erm pension... situation. I've said I'd be prepared to work for between two and three days a week... [Ian:] Right yeah. [John:] for them. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] I mean that... need not necessarily be kept. I could undertake a whole week's worth and then [Ian:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] do nothing for a fortnight of course. It depends on demand. [Ian:] there's school holidays and. [John:] Of course. [Ian:] Yeah no... no that's okay. [John:] right. [Ian:] I mean they're all... basically for different schools anyway, but it just so [John:] Of course yes. [Ian:] happens they come under one... education authority. [John:] It's a it's a rather a debatable thing as to who is actually your employer. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] That's right. [John:] Yes I sha I shall have to go and talk to the tax people I know about... er... the the set up. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Fine. Er this next form is basically one that we have to... send to the Benefit Office [John:] Right. [Ian:] the D S S, [John:] Of course. [Ian:] the Inland Revenue and [phone rings] the TEC office. [John:] Right. I'll suspend this. [stops tape] [Ian:] You would need to... be in touch with the the Benefit office informing them [John:] Right yeah. [Ian:] that you are going... onto the Enterprise Allowance scheme as from Monday. [John:] I I I've got all the necessary papers to do that. [Ian:] You have. [John:] It's just a question of I was waiting till we'd had [Ian:] Right. [John:] this meeting so that it was then [Ian:] Yeah, fine [John:] official [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] obviously. [Ian:] Well this goes... by tortuous route and eventually will get to [LAUGHTER] Newark []. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Erm basically we've just got here your your name... [John:] Okay. Can I... correct the spelling, it's one. [Ian:] . You know when I wro [John:] It's two in surnames and one in christian names I always think. [Ian:] I must admit on every form I've put the two and I thought afterward I'd better [John:] [LAUGHTER].... It's a minor thing but er... you know. [Ian:] On some of them I've just put John P I think. [John:] That's right yes well that's how I'm intending to trade. [Ian:] . Yes, yeah. Your national insurance number. [John:] That is correct. [Ian:] The type of er... business you are setting up... as a music teacher. [John:] Right... music teacher and supplier of musical services in fact, yes. [Ian:] Erm... trading name? [John:] Is just John P in fact. [Ian:] Right. [John:] And the card that I'm going to do will be... have John P you know... erm teacher, accompanist [Ian:] right, yes. [John:] performer transposer or whatever it's... I don't want to limit myself to just... saying, I'm a teacher other things as well. [Ian:] No, fair enough, yes yes yes that's that's very... very. The address business address is happens to be your home is [John:] Is correct, yes. [Ian:] your home address,... and the Enterprise Allowance... money will be paid from Monday the twenty fourth of January nineteen ninety [John:] Right. [Ian:] thre four right through to Saturday the twenty first of January nineteen ninety five. [John:] Got it, yeah. [Ian:] The first payment due to you which will be credited to your business bank account will be on... week commencing the seventh of the February. [John:] which will be a fortnight after... [Ian:] Yeah that's right. [John:] the... the actual start, yes. [Ian:] I'll change that. [sound of tearing paper] The... they were going to actually pay... fifty pounds... a week for a [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] shorter period then on a reducing scale but the computer can't do it and... so [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] unfortunately they'd already printed the forms [John:] Yes. [Ian:] and so but it it's back. [John:] Oh I understood the eighty pounds a week anyway. [Ian:] Yep. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Providing that the forms get down to... the computer in London on time [John:] Mhm. [Ian:] then... erm... the first payment in some occasions is a cheque direct to you from the TEC. [John:] I see. [Ian:] Then when the cheques stop, then check with your bank further two weeks go straight to the bank. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] If there are any queries on... that you haven't erm received the money or anything just get back to us and er we'll [John:] Okay. [Ian:] we'll we'll chase it up. [John:] I know where you are. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] So that form we will send off to the various... erm... departments. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Right.... This form here it's just a fairly short one,i could you just... tick the appropriate boxes for me. It's a bit of a market survey... research. [John:] [reading] How did I hear about it? [] Erm... well I didn't actually... hear about it, I'd already known that sch that such schemes existed. [Ian:] Right yeah. [John:] And it merely occurred to me, actually I was sitting in the unemployment benefit office and I said to them er er at one of my interviews, [Ian:] Mm. [John:] Probably I'd be better off going self-employed wouldn't I? and they said, Well in that case you'll need to talk to the Chamber of Commerce [Ian:] Right. [John:] so I suppose basically [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] the job centre. [Ian:] Mhm. [John:] Is that okay? [Ian:] Yeah that'll do fine. [John:] Erm... I think I'd have my business... later, probably about... six months. [Ian:] Months, six months. I'm glad you said that cos if too many people said they would have gone on... started business without it they might drop the scheme. [John:] They might drop the scheme, yes yeah. Mm... ah... I suppose so. I object to these things actually on principal. [Ian:] I I [John:] I've refused to do them for Notts County Council... on occasions. I could I could [reading] prefer not to say [], couldn't I? [Ian:] Yeah you could have done. [John:] Erm... [reading] long term health... problems or disability. [] yes [Ian:] Well [John:] and no. retired on health grounds but I [Ian:] Well I mean we we are, yes yes we are aware of the. [John:] Right so I will say no I don I don't have a long term one, and no I'm not registered. [Ian:] for that one. [John:] Thank you. [Ian:] Right now this next form is the one that we need the bank details. [John:] Which I just happen to have with me... somewhere in here.... I seem to have every form the Inland Revenue has ever published at the moment.... Ah to the back of the.... In the bank manager's own handwriting. [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] Ah mm. I have to sign my life away to get these yellow forms. [John:] Mm. [Ian:] Secretary of State cos I mean in in the wrong hands their worth... each form's worth two thousand and [John:] Of course, yes. [Ian:] eight pounds [John:] Yes. [Ian:] so this one we have to be very careful with it. Right the... sort code [John:] The sort code is [Ian:] And the account number? [John:] Is... [Ian:] [repeats account number] repeats account number. And the account name is? [John:] Is John P [Ian:] John P. [John:] business account. [Ian:] Right.... Which account... er bank is it? [John:] There you are. Nat West. [Ian:] Right.... Okay that's fine.... Erm industry code. I looked up that early... earlier. Fifty three. We have a big directory that we've got to put all these... [John:] Oh I see. [Ian:] depending what type of business you're in.... [whistling]... Right when erm... did you finish actually work with.... [John:] On the thirty first of August [Ian:] Thirty first of August. [John:] last year. [Ian:] Right. Approximately how many weeks is that? [John:] Erm... hang on. September, October, November, December... erm we're talking about... sixteen, eighteen... we're talking about twenty... twenty plus weeks twenty twenty one weeks. [Ian:] Twenty one weeks, right.... And in that time you were in receipt of benefit were you? [John:] Yes. [Ian:] Yes was it er... do you know the the weekly amount approximately?. [John:] Erm forty four... something. Well whatever it is the standard. [Ian:] yeah right. Forty four. [John:] ... It [sound of paper being torn] to eighty nine pounds twenty twenty something pence... in total. So it's for just over [Ian:] Right. [John:] forty four. [Ian:] That's... two... two and six. One... two... two. Right if you'll just erm... check the details. [John:] . [Ian:] If you want to just check the bank account cos we don't want the... we don't want the money going to the wrong [John:] Okay yes that's important.... close your zero there in case it looks like a six [LAUGHTER]. O one ninety four. Yes obviously that's the date isn't it O one ninety four? [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] Yes, yes. I never never appreciated that before. [John:] No. Oh I I knew that [Ian:] . [John:] one actually because our other erm... accounts are rather similar.. [Ian:] Right. [John:] business yeah. I don't know... oh yes [Ian:] Right. [John:] seventy two ninety four. [Ian:] Yes that's the date of the first pay first payment [John:] Yes of course. [reading number] [] [Ian:] Your national insurance number. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Date of birth. [John:] Erm [Ian:] You're male. The industry code... [John:] . [Ian:] that I've looked up. [John:] [reading] Previous unemployed twenty one weeks. Previous benefit level forty four. [] [Ian:] Right. [John:] That's correct. [reading] Signature of applicant. [] [signs document]. And the twentieth [Ian:] ieth [John:] one... ninety four. [Ian:] .... Right that's that out of the way. One... there is a contract... agreement here between you and the... North Buckinghamshire TEC. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Erm there's nothing very sort of horrendous about it. If you... just have a... take a few moments to... [John:] . [Ian:] have a read through it. The... handout that they refer to here. Have you read... erm handout number one? It's... one of these which I think did I give you... initially? [John:] I have got a copy of... here [Ian:] That's it. [John:] Yes. I've actually been through it as you will appreciate. A total of my own expense and ticked the appropriate bits complied with them. [Ian:] Fine, fine, yes so that actually refers to that [John:] Yes. [Ian:] particular... account there. [John:] Right. In which case I will pause this again. [break in recording] the only erm problem I had I think with the basic er terms as outlined in this document are the fact that I'm going to be wor erm intending to work for fif at least fifty of the fifty two weeks in the year at it when of course erm certainly as we'd already agreed on my erm... business plan... within the summer month from the... the end of July until the beginning of September [Ian:] Yes, yes. [John:] it's highly unlikely [LAUGHTER] I'm gonna get any business at all. [Ian:] Right, yes. [John:] In any case because of the nature of [Ian:] Yes. [John:] what is being offered [Ian:] . [John:] and the market... that it's being offered to. [Ian:] Yeah, yeah. Er tha that's alright yes. I mean the bas if you're sort of wanting to take any holiday or time [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] off I mean just keep... yes. [John:] That's the time to do it, yes. [Ian:] Keep us informed and er [John:] Keep us informed, yes [Ian:] ... tha tha that's okay. [John:] Do you want to know about occasional days or you you're presumably concerned with... with full periods. I mean it sometimes is that for instance we... we have a daughter in York and I have parents in London [Ian:] Yes. [John:] and sometimes we'll take a long weekend... [Ian:] It's really full periods [John:] Go Friday to Monday or something [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] like that. [Ian:] It's really if you're sort of gonna be away for a couple of weeks. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Anything longer than that erm... it just depends really on the time of the... erm... your... the time of the year or how many months you've [John:] Right. [Ian:] actually been on the scheme. For example, we need... to see you... at [John:] Is it three six [Ian:] Er three months and at six months... and then again at sort of the twelve months time [John:] And then at fif [Ian:] We're always still here and available. [John:] and eighteen I think isn't it as well? [Ian:] Yes that's right. [John:] Yes. [Ian:] So it's... if it's coming up [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] to sort of three months and you have to be away and we don't hear from you we think, Oh you naughty boy, yes. [John:] You might get worried, yes. [Ian:] We'll take him off the scheme because he hasn't replied to... any of our correspondence. [John:] Yes. [Ian:] So er [John:] No I'll certainly keep you informed. [Ian:] No that's alright, yeah, fine. Right this is the... the last... form. [John:] This is my copy of the form. [Ian:] Erm...... [reading] have you been s [] yes you've been signing on... [John:] I've been signing on postally in fact. [Ian:] Yeah, yeah.... And it's been less than... it's between six weeks and... five months has it? [John:] It is it must be yes. Erm ooh no hang on... it's just over five months. [Ian:] . Right so that's six to twelve months. [John:] That's six to twelve months wasn't it yes. [Ian:] I must get my glasses changed. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] They must print their [Ian:] Yes. [John:] forms on slightly bigger pieces of paper I think. [Ian:] Right. Er [reading] do you have any long... term health [], no. [John:] No. [Ian:] Right here you have the opportunities to prefer not to say as to your colour. [John:] Oh go on I've said it once so I'll do it again. [Ian:] Right. It's just basically [John:] Right. [Ian:] ... basic details, name... and address, telephone number, [John:] Okay, yeah. [Ian:] national insurance number, date of birth. Erm another code number form a directory... [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] start date of going onto the scheme, [John:] That's today. [Ian:] the end date... yeah And... forty pounds a week and that's erm... the code number for the for the TEC. [John:] Right. [Ian:] So sign and date that one. [John:] [signs paper]... ninety four. That's it. [Ian:] That's it, right. [clears throat] you're now participant number O one six four two. [John:] That's great. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] one of those numbers to [LAUGHTER]. [John:] I'll write it down on here. O one [Ian:] O six... O one six six four two. [John:] six four two. [Ian:] Right. [John:] Not that I shall probably need it at all. [Ian:] Right. [John:] Well thank you very much. [Ian:] So that that's everything. Now as I say... erm the next formal... sort of contact [John:] Mhm. [Ian:] that we will have will you... with you will be in about three months time when [John:] Right. [Ian:] we'll... er we'll want to see you. We normally on the first three months do it on a group basis [John:] Okay. [Ian:] but if you happen to have erm... an urgent appointment or you're [John:] Mm. [Ian:] seeing a client... [clears throat] on that particular morning [John:] Yep. [Ian:] then... we we can do it on a one to [John:] How much notice do you tend to give of these? [Ian:] It's about... a couple of weeks. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Yeah. Erm but if if it happens [John:] yeah. [Ian:] you're saying, Well every Wednesday morning or whenever [John:] Mm. [Ian:] it is... that I have an appointment [John:] Mm. [Ian:] with a... with a er client then... we appreciate the business... comes first. [John:] Mm... it it may it may not be in that nature because the nature of of supply teaching work of course is that [Ian:] Yes. [John:] there tends to be a phone call we're desperate. [Ian:] Can you make it? [John:] Can you make it in half an hour's time, you know. [Ian:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a [John:] should that occur [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] ... I mean... [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] I I think business [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] must come first before [Ian:] Exactly. Yeah we apprec we appreciate that [John:] Erm [Ian:] erm. Now... at that int er we we'll send you a er a couple of forms but als... to to complete, but there's also... the main thing that we're really looking f at is... erm.... [John:] How you're keeping [Ian:] Yes. [John:] up with that business plan. [Ian:] That's right. Filli filling in the actuals... [John:] Right. [Ian:] of your erm [clears throat] your cash flow. [clears throat] [John:] Well the the the actual book is already started and is sitting [Ian:] Good, good. [John:] ... up and running as it were and er... I shall be I I know already that some of these figures are inaccurate [LAUGHTER]... [Ian:] Yes. [John:] having had rather a nasty shock when I had the car serviced the other day. [Ian:] Right, right. [John:] It needed new clutch and new exhaust [Ian:] Yes unfortunately right [John:] which didn't help matters. [Ian:] . The travelling and motoring expenses for... two hundred and seventy five [John:] Ooh... the they will be double that. [Ian:] Double that, yes. [John:] I've just paid three hundred and eighty five over to a certain garage [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] and that was before we bought the petrol this morning [LAUGHTER]. [Ian:] Erm... the form that comes out... is different to this but you you can use... [John:] Right. [Ian:] put it in pencil in this one if you want and we... so we [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] can on the day make... a a photocopy that's all. It's more of a management exercise... to [John:] Of course. [Ian:] make sure that people are [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] controlling their businesses [John:] Mm. [Ian:] and their costs as opposed to actually... erm [John:] I've actually got a a complete copy of all that [Ian:] Right. [John:] anyway having been [Ian:] you didn did you want the original back [John:] Erm. [Ian:] or erm [John:] Yes alright unless [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] you wanna keep it. [Ian:] we have got a copy as well so [John:] Oh I see. [Ian:] Yes. [John:] Well ha ha had I known I would have told you [LAUGHTER] not to take a copy you see []. [Ian:] That's alright. [John:] I I I've I've been these these routes before [Ian:] Yes. [John:] and I never give out... documents that are going to be important without copying them first. [Ian:] No no exactly. I mean sometimes people go to great lengths and trouble [John:] Mm. [Ian:] in getting a a nice... document together and they... they would they would like to have it back... and so [John:] Yes. [Ian:] we take usually just take a photocopy of everything. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Have you... got the form... for the... I think the Inland Revenue? The tax man and it's a [John:] Erm... what I [Ian:] little green booklet called I R twenty eight. Ah it's changed colour hasn't it? [John:] What I have I R? [Ian:] Twenty eight. [John:] Twenty eight. [Ian:] I think it'll be one of those... [John:] Here we are. I R twenty eight. [Ian:] Yes it's cha changed colour. [John:] the form is actually sitting in the... centre [Ian:] That's it. [John:] which is one of the two that I've got because the other one I've got to deal with is the... self-employed... national insurance contributions [Ian:] Right. [John:] form as well, of course. [Ian:] Can I... just take the numbers off those forms? [John:] You can indeed yes. [Ian:] We have no problem getting... well that's... we have no problems getting [John:] Yes. [Ian:] them from the Inland Revenue. They send us lists [John:] Right. [Ian:] of what's in everyone's. [John:] This this came as part of a package [Ian:] Right. [John:] I I rang Hill House in Mansfield [Ian:] Right. useful [John:] how about it. I have another matter to talk with them actually about my wife's liability to... class to... contributions. There's a... a long outstanding erm discussion going on between us and Newcastle. It's been going on for about seventeen months now... and the... in chief man at Hill House was rather interested to hear that we'd not actually had it resolved yet, and asked for the reference numbers and.... Newcastle were on the phone to us within twenty [LAUGHTER] minutes of him putting his phone down []. Things now seem to be moving. [Ian:] Good. to get these from. You can go dow go down to local benefit office [John:] Mm. [Ian:] we can get a small... you know quantity but to actually get [John:] Well thi this is a complete pack that comes and there's obviously... erm from... the... information that was included with it erm... here we are. Erm they they obviously run a check on what was actually in the pack [Ian:] Pack, right. [John:] and whether you asked for anything else. [Ian:] Yeah, yes. And does it give an address or? [John:] I think it was nearly your... your area.... [Ian:] Mm. [John:] office of course [Ian:] I haven't seen this new pack you know we [John:] Mm. [Ian:] I've had some of the old individual leaflets. [John:] They even give you an envelope for it. It's very... charitable [Ian:] It is really. [John:] . [Ian:] That's a useful er... you know a useful [John:] It is. [Ian:] . [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] get some.... [John:] It might be an idea to have a supply. [Ian:] Mm.... Yes shall... pay another call to our benefit office and say, I want some of those... nice mauve coloured [John:] I suspect I suspect the local office probably won't because it was they... when I rang them here in Newark and I said, Look I'm about to go self-employed, [Ian:] Mm, mm. [John:] Oh we don't keep things like that it's... where do you live? Southwell. It's Hill House, Mansfield. You've gotta apply there. [Ian:] Lincoln. [John:] So from Newark it's probably Lincoln [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] isn't it? [Ian:] Yes, yes [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] normally that erm... [John:] Southwell Southwell faces Mansfield which rather gets us in the stick you see because we have to come here for... Benefit Office interviews and things like that but you got to Mansfield for other things. [Ian:] That's right, yeah. [John:] But most of the people who come here for interviews goes to Lincoln... [Ian:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] and er... with my son particularly earlier on in his career things were going round and round in circles and in the end I had to step in at one point, grab all the papers as they came past as they were and saying, come on. [LAUGHTER] Cos one office was playing the other office off against each other. [Ian:] Yes, yeah yeah. [John:] It was quite amazing. [Ian:] Fine. So that's [John:] I'm looking forward to this. [Ian:] virtually everything. Good.... as I say we'll be in touch with you in... in that three months time [John:] Right. [Ian:] but if in any reason you know you wanted to come and have a discussion or there was a problem or er there's anything [John:] things are looking clearer now than they did... you know a few weeks ago. [Ian:] Yeah. Fine, great. [John:] And so I think [Ian:] I'm looking forward to. [John:] possibilities are... are definitely there. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] I can start advertising myself now [Ian:] Right, right certainly. [John:] and I'm hoping that the local authority will start coming across with... a bit of work for me. [Ian:] Good. How long did the interview last at the TEC. Was it a fair... was it an in and out... quickly or? [John:] Erm... fifteen minutes. [Ian:] Fifteen minutes, right yes. [John:] Yes. Most of which... time we talked about organs. I can play you the... er [LAUGHTER] recording of the interview [] [Ian:] Right. [John:] [LAUGHTER] if you like. It's on the front of this tape []. But, no I'd better not had I. [Ian:] No, no. Confidentiality. [John:] Yes.... That's er [Ian:] Yes alright. [John:] Yes a very nice gentleman. [Ian:] Yes it was John? [John:] John yes. [Ian:] Right, yes, yes. They they do occasionally change... them around... [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Erm... and some people that we... we send out sort of tend to be there for either half an hour and others sort of. [John:] It possibly depends on the nature of what you're... intending [Ian:] Yes. [John:] to set up. I mean my application essentially I should think was one of the simplest... [Ian:] Yes. [John:] that could possibly be. There's no stuck... movements and [Ian:] Mm. [John:] things like that involved. [Ian:] No I mean we do send the business plan up prior to the [clears throat] to the [John:] Of course, yes. [Ian:] but even so I think some [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] of the ones..., yes, yes [John:] They look at it when the client comes in [Ian:] rather than. I mean we did have [John:] Yes. [Ian:] one which... must have been probably about so thick [John:] Right. [Ian:] and I can't foresee the chap... reading that in a... [John:] No. [Ian:] and absorbing it and er... they just... want to make sure [John:] Mm. [Ian:] that the person there is... er [John:] Actually did write the plan [Ian:] Yes. [John:] and knows what they're about, yes. [Ian:] But even but even in that case we did have... er did have a case with a young... a youngish lad who his accountant had written it [John:] Oh. [Ian:] was very sketchy [John:] Yes. [Ian:] financial projection side was fine you know [John:] Right. [Ian:] full of... cash flow charts and budgets for three years, projected profit and loss and all. But the written part was only very sketchy [John:] Mm. [Ian:] on on erm... one... side of A four... and it was obviously wasn't written by a young... man [John:] Right. [Ian:] and erm... the they di did pass him but [John:] Oh. [Ian:] they did obviously have to ask him a lot more questions [John:] Yes. [Ian:] so hence the interview [John:] Yes. [Ian:] lasted quite... a period of time because they wanted to make sure that... he knew what he was doing and everything [John:] Right. [Ian:] was... you know factual within the... in the written part. [John:] I I must say I've also been... er you know very... very impressed and er learnt quite a lot just attending these... courses that you've you've got running here. [Ian:] Yes, yes. [John:] It helps to put things that you already knew back in focus [Ian:] Yes. [John:] and remind you of some of the other things that you didn't. [Ian:] Mm, mm. Yes so i i... at one time to get onto the... to apply for the Enterprise [John:] Mm. [Ian:] Allowance Scheme one had to... attend a mandatory seven day Start Your Own Business course. [John:] Right. Yes I realized this. This was when they first started wasn't it? [Ian:] That's right which was... run two days a week for over... for three and a half weeks. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Then produce a business plan and the interv go for the interview which... looking sort of month six weeks [John:] Yes. [Ian:] before you could actually get onto the scheme. But here in Newark because we don't have sufficient numbers coming through [John:] No. [Ian:] we tend to do it all on a one to one basis [John:] Right. [Ian:] and have a back up of the... you know the the individual days sort of [John:] then in a position [Ian:] Yes. [John:] to use your judgement as to whether you say to somebody, Yeah you must finish this before I'm gonna consider you or... [Ian:] Yes. [John:] Yeah okay we'll put your name forward but it would be nice if you attended. [Ian:] Mm. But before it was a mandatory seven day course regardless of that person's expertise or... you know... qualifications. [John:] might have been their own company life before they... [Ian:] Yes, exactly. [John:] went unemployed and then decided to take advantage. [Ian:] Yeah I mean we do get people who come in on the sort of the Friday morning and they've already got their... done their business perhaps sought out... professional advice elsewhere [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] they just really need a d discussion with somebody local, get some a bit of extra information [John:] And sign on. [Ian:] but to make that person go through a... a seven day course and wait a month is... nonsense so... it is a much more flexible now. Because we don't have the sufficient numbers and can't keep people waiting for... courses we tend to have these... do it on a one to one basis... which... you get, I don't know.... I think from... generally from courses are quite good because you do learn something and you're [John:] Oh yes. [Ian:] meeting other people in similar circumstances and no matter how much you tend to know, you'll... learn and feed off each other [John:] Mm. [Ian:] Whereas one to one it's just... you and that particular... you know business. [John:] I've been most appreciative of the... erm clarity and incisiveness of 's... set out. [Ian:] She's very. [John:] She she's a born teacher. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Should should I think the... the the tax... erm... priv private private tax... advice gain is the is the education with her. [Ian:] Mm, mm. [John:] She she's absolutely excellent. [Ian:] Yes, yes. We always get er... you know very good erm... sort of report back er [clears throat] from the courses that she... she runs, yeah. [John:] Yes. [Ian:] I think it's a difficult... subject er in... one where somebody's starting up own business who hasn't... erm had any experience before [John:] Mm. [Ian:] that you know... book keeping, finance and taxation i it's [John:] Mm. [Ian:] a... a minefield in a wilderness [John:] It's a bit of a headache isn't it, yes. [Ian:] and something that... one can be quite erm... fearful of. [John:] I'm rather lucky in a way. I've a father in law who was... er for a long time in charge of the erm... er financial side of the P A Y E side of the er National Dental Estimates Board in Eastbourne in Sussex [Ian:] Mm. [John:] and he knows these things. He could... he's still good enough to stand in erm Sainsburys alongside the till and add up the prices as they go through. [Ian:] yeah. Yes. [John:] And reach the same total at the end [Ian:] Yes. [John:] or argue when his total doesn't match hers [Ian:] yes. [John:] and he's always right. [Ian:] Mm, mm. Does he do that as a matter of practice when he goes shopping? [John:] Oh yes, yes. He just stands there and does it. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] Click click click click click. I can tell you what it's gonna be. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] And it is. [Ian:] Amazing, yeah, yeah. [John:] He worries me. [Ian:] Yes, yes. lesser mortals need these things like [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] calculators to er.... Makes you very lazy I think. [John:] Oh I think so. It's rather interesting at the erm... book keeping course last Wednesday I... I did it all without using a calculator... because the examples essentially were quite simple. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] Basic arithmetic.... [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Er everybody else used calculators and I was first finished every time. [Ian:] Mm, mm. [John:] Now... that can't be because I was... that much better at maths because I'm not I mean... [Ian:] Mm. [John:] musicians can only count up to four. Beyond that they it's combinations [LAUGHTER] of twos and threes []. [Ian:] Yes, yeah, yeah. [John:] I'm no I'm no speed... merchant as far as maths is concerned [Ian:] Mm, mm. [John:] at all. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] I think you can get bogged down in in the button pushing and making mistakes. [Ian:] Yes, yes yes yes. I must admit I. Maths wasn't one of my strong subjects at school and er... I I rely very heavily on it to... [John:] Mm. [Ian:] but even sometimes when the calculator is not immediately available and you start adding up the finger er the figures [John:] Yes. [Ian:] ... i it's... getting slower [John:] Yes. [Ian:] unless you're doing it. [John:] I st I have to use my fingers these days to carry forward the the... [Ian:] Yes. [John:] the er the tens and all this [Ian:] Yes. [John:] kind of thing. Well I'd better get out of your hair. [Ian:] Fine. Okay well my next appointment's [John:] Thank you very much for this. [Ian:] actually cancelled. That was the telephone call [John:] Ah. [Ian:] . Get down and do some paperwork. [John:] .... Thanks very much indeed. [Ian:] Pleasure. [recording ends]

[John:] with it just there. Yes. [Gill:] Oh have you got a pen? Oh I see.... Yeah carry on.... [John:] whoever listens to this first off anyway.... Right, we've done it....... [J Marsden:] So erm [John:] What what we've done is is is print our names in capital letters there. [J Marsden:] So you you want my name printed there? [John:] Yes please [J Marsden:] Right.... thirty five [John:] Of course yeah. [J Marsden:] That's how old I am next week. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's only a approximate estimate. [Gill:] Well I'm only trying to find just a few more recordings for her because they're coming towards the end of the er of the contract and er [John:] And you're welcome to keep that if you like. If that's of any interest to you. Yeah. [J Marsden:] Erm yeah er that'd be quite interesting have a read through, thank you. [John:] It's a fascinating project.... Now over to you. [J Marsden:] And it was a vertical blind we were [John:] That's right it's this window. [Gill:] Yes it was for this window. Mm. [J Marsden:] Right. Have you any particul particular colour in mind? [Gill:] Well I would [John:] We've never ever looked at vertical blinds before. Have we? White [Gill:] I think white actually is the best colour because it Yeah, anything else I think is going to be. [J Marsden:] Well this is the book.... And erm... all the different erm fabrics [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] are colour coordinated so as you can [Gill:] Yeah yeah. [J Marsden:] see, all the white one are at the front and they're [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] they're all classed as white but you can see some are [Gill:] But some are more cream aren't they yeah. I think I want a really a as white a white as [J Marsden:] Do you want to come up to the window where you can see? [Gill:] as possible cos e everything in the background is white. [John:] If I move this out of the way cos you'll need to get at Sorry. [Gill:] The dogs. [John:] poor dog can see the rabbit now. [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] So erm in addition to these erm fabrics here, right at the back of the book [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] there's a couple more sections where erm we've got these are some of the later fabrics which were added on. As you can see th those are white probably look a [Gill:] Aha. [J Marsden:] bit more fancy that the the standard ones. [Gill:] Yeah. Okay. [J Marsden:] Can I leave you to erm have a browse at that while I measure the door? [Gill:] Mm [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Yeah fine. [John:] What we're really essentially interested in I think is keeping the sun which tends to be very strong from there [J Marsden:] Yes. [John:] when it's a nice sunny day, out. So what we're looking for is one that will ern go erm [J Marsden:] Yes. [John:] to that angle. [J Marsden:] Right [John:] And [J Marsden:] so we we go through o er one hundred and eighty degrees. [John:] Oh they go complete through. [J Marsden:] So from [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] from being at this angle where you're looking directly [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] through it, they go all the way to the closed position that way [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and the other way as well. [John:] Ah. [Gill:] Oh they do both? Oh th that's that's that's wonderful. Yes. [John:] That's brilliant yes. As I say we know nothing about them at all, we've never ever owned one. [J Marsden:] However I think erm y you're one the right track erm picking white out [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] because [Gill:] It is going to reflect the [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] the light yes. [J Marsden:] I've got erm I'll show the type of thing I've got. [Gill:] Yes. [J Marsden:] It's not it's not actually in here but... I've got erm perhaps that kind of colour [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] with more more that sort of fabric. [Gill:] A a a gen [J Marsden:] Erm. [Gill:] a thicker [J Marsden:] Yes but a similar to that but a little bit darker. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] And in the middle of Summer, the blind itself does get [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] quite warm [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and the heat from that then [John:] we've got an old [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] roller blind outside which we use erm at an angle out on to the garden [Gill:] Well it stops the heat. [John:] in the Summer which stops the heat [J Marsden:] Yeah. [John:] because it just takes the sun off the window. On the outside but it doesn't stop the light [Gill:] It doesn't actually stop the light it doesn't No. [John:] of course and it's [J Marsden:] Yes. [John:] . [J Marsden:] Well in the continent they th th they just put blinds up the outside don't they? [John:] Put blinds on the outside or shutters. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Yeah. I've seen er some nice ones in Germany, they had erm quite a very erm large sort of strong erm venetian blind [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] on the outside [John:] Oh. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] And er th th they looked very nice. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Be be perfect round here wouldn't it. [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] what we need more is [Gill:] To keep the rain out. [John:] Yeah, [J Marsden:] Right I'll leave you to [Gill:] Okay. [J Marsden:] have a browse through that. [Gill:] Thank you. [J Marsden:] Oh one other thing I should point out at this stage, erm on the back of some of these [Gill:] Yeah? [J Marsden:] you'll see various stickers. Erm as you only want one blind [Gill:] Mhm. Take no [J Marsden:] take no notice of those. [Gill:] That. [John:] Unless you wanted to do something in the kitchen as well of course. [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Which is a a thought. [J Marsden:] This is the kind of thing you've got to be looking for and thirty three percent off [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] erm... fifty percent off. That that kind of thing. [Gill:] Aha. [J Marsden:] If you pick one of the ones without a discount sticker on it [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] You you might get quite a nasty shock. [Gill:] Yeah I'm [LAUGHTER] sure I would yes []. Okay. [J Marsden:] We're like a bit like M F I we've continually [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] got some sort of sale on [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] And i prices alter roughly with the seasons of the year. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Yeah yeah. [J Marsden:] And erm they tend to er [John:] So thirty three percent off is off the price of one? [J Marsden:] That is off that's off the price erm this this particular fabric, [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] on on on one blind. Or if you wanted [John:] But where you sees two for the price of one, you're effectively gonna be getting a fifty percent [J Marsden:] Erm [Gill:] It would be it would be two for the Well it actually it actually tells you doesn't it? [John:] Or fifty percent reduction. So it would be two for the price of the most expensive one wouldn't it, yeah. Or two for a hundred and fifty or [Gill:] Presumably that's what it would mean. You would get [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] two for a [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] two hundred and fifty pounds or [J Marsden:] Wh what no matter what erm size. [John:] So we'll suddenly find this window that's thirty foot long by seven foot high and [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Well yes. [Gill:] This is the biggest window we've got. [John:] This is the biggest window in the house it's alright. [J Marsden:] They're they're quite good deals if you've got er if you've [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] got sort of something like a couple of Yeah. [John:] Floor floor to ceiling patio windows. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] I won't b Actually pr although patio windows have got the greatest erm are of glass, [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] they're not e when it comes to blinds they're not the most expensive [John:] Ah. [J Marsden:] blinds. The erm er width is far more important [John:] Oh I see. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] pricing them up. Than than drop. [Gill:] And they're not always so wide. [J Marsden:] Erm for instance erm quite a I did one a couple of weeks ago erm on Avenue. [Gill:] Aha. [J Marsden:] And erm chap was quite surprised to find that the bedroom window worked out more than his patio. [Gill:] Aha. Because of the width. [J Marsden:] And it was simply because it was er [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] it was quite a long one. [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] And [John:] And it's the track stuff is it the the basic machinery that's the [J Marsden:] Yes it's far more number of levers. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] You know and there's more part of the price is in in not so much on the materials. It's how much work [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] goes into making them up. [Gill:] That's right. [John:] Right. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And there's something else I I would just point out before I measure your window. [Gill:] Mhm.... [John:] Cos it was you said there were two or three different kinds of [J Marsden:] Yeah.... [John:] track systems. [J Marsden:] Yeah we do two systems. The more common one being this one. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Erm the blind you've got two controls, [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] You've got a chain which when you pull that, can you see these [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] hooks? that's that's the tilting mechanism of the louvre. And then there's a cord as well [John:] Which which draws them. [J Marsden:] Yeah which draws them across. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Then of course there's a there's a chain which hangs on there to prevent this this c [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] kind of thing what you see now. Erm... this head rail in addition to white, it also comes in a silver or aluminium. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] And also beige as well. This is the cheaper version which only comes in aluminium [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] and the other difference being, instead of having the the control at the side for for drawing the blinds, you've just got this simple er string. [John:] Oh I see you just pull it along [J Marsden:] Pull them along that way. [Gill:] Yeah yeah. [John:] So [Gill:] Not quite so [J Marsden:] No. The other one works out a bit more expensive. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And also there's erm there's er a price increase of colour as well. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Erm look at this window roughly. I I can give you an accurate price in a few minutes but roughly you'd pay about five pounds more [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] if you wanted either white or beige [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] as opposed to the aluminium. [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] I should think white would be the best [Gill:] Well white is the obvious isn't it I think for this one. finished decorating. [J Marsden:] Well shall I fish this tape measure out and er measure the window.... Right let's have a look.... [John:] And it's got to be one of those whites. [Gill:] Well it's gonna have to be the white. [John:] Do you want a textured one or [Gill:] I don't know. really what the main difference is I suppose.... [J Marsden:] Have you been in Southwell for long? [John:] Seventeen years. Yeah. [J Marsden:] So that's is that roughly when this house was built? [John:] No no it was about twenty two. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] A couple of years [J Marsden:] I used to cut across this it used to be a field on the way home from [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] well it was from school when I was a lad. [Gill:] You you you were there were you at school? [J Marsden:] Yeah. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And er lived on Gardens. [Gill:] Oh yeah. [J Marsden:] Er so erm as I remember it erm... Drive was only half built [John:] Right. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] the houses on the other side. [Gill:] Aha. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] On the Road side, they were built erm quite a quite a while before they built the other side of the road. [John:] Right. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] And it it was quite strange, it was just sort of a row of houses [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And a road and then fields. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Just like that. But as i say it was like that for two or three years. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Cos it was orchard land originally I think part of? [J Marsden:] This was actually Yeah this was this this was a field here [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] erm erm that bit over there erm where Close is [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] that was an orchard. [John:] Ah. [J Marsden:] But the rest of it was just you know l you know erm [Gill:] At the end, the back yes, yes. [John:] Over the back [J Marsden:] It was just all all like that you know a few tress but mainly grass. [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Well we were told this was the lo about the la one of the last houses to be built on this close. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] But er [Gill:] Cos I know it was and a Yes the other side was built first too [John:] Mm. [Gill:] wasn't it? And down A little bit later. [John:] Yes. Just one or two people who were who were here from the start so they remembered you know th thi this was this was more or less where the builders finished off, this was about the last house they did [J Marsden:] Yeah [Gill:] And our front garden was a rubble. [LAUGHTER] All the rubble went there. [J Marsden:] Yes th as I remember they did the other side of first. [John:] Right yes. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] But erm I remember er we used to play in the houses as they were [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] as they were being built. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] It's a great game isn't it? [LAUGHTER] Half built houses. [] [J Marsden:] You had to be careful that the builders didn't catch us. [Gill:] That's right yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Throwing throwing balls of putty to each other and a couple of them went through windows and [Gill:] Oh well you had a good time. [John:] Do you want a fire retardant one or... just in interestingly enough, the ones that have got price offers on them aren't fire retardant. I think probably supposed to have fire retardant things these days. [Gill:] when you get to a window I don't know other than t the curtains won't be fire retardant will they? [John:] No they're not are they? [Gill:] You know. [J Marsden:] I'm not sure what to tell you about that one. [Gill:] Well I'm just thinking about what's round the windows anyway. I'm quite sure that material isn't fire retardant. [John:] No. And I'm quite sure the wood isn't. Given the amount of treatment [Gill:] Well there you are so [John:] it's got in it. [Gill:] it would seem to be rather a waste of erm [John:] Mm. [Gill:] whatever. I'm sure it's more expensive. [John:] Do you want a pure do do you want a pure white or [J Marsden:] Right. [Gill:] Mm.... [John:] And the only other thing to do is to look at the at matching it. But I mean that's an almost perfect match isn't it to the furniture. [J Marsden:] This is erm quite a wide window could you [John:] Yes sure. [J Marsden:] If we start at the top [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] about erm just about midway point at this [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] side bit.... Right then is we go down about halfway.... That's a little bit wider and then er the bottom as well please.... Then it's back up to the top one more time.... This is a cr critical measurement. [John:] Yeah.... [J Marsden:] Two three six point four.... Okay.... [John:] Well that's defeated me cos I measured it in in feet feet and inches. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER]... [J Marsden:] Yes we're entirely metric apart from erm [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] in these louvre sizes. [John:] Oh. [J Marsden:] These are these are three and a half inches wide. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] Oh I see. [J Marsden:] And we do another one which is [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] five inches wide. [Gill:] Ah. Well quite a mixture. [John:] Do you want the curtains moved back a bit or [J Marsden:] No I'll be okay thanks.... [John:] have me little pocket calculator out and.... It should be about eight by five actually. [Gill:] Mm.... But it's very critical when you're erm [John:] Oh yes. [Gill:] When you've got to fit things like blinds and Especially this time.... Is it very uneven? [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Erm... today.... It's erm not too bad apart from just at this end. [Gill:] It's that end is it? [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] What [J Marsden:] Erm where where the wrinkle is [John:] It goes off [J Marsden:] Yeah this last bit, [Gill:] Yeah? [J Marsden:] it goes up by about erm [Gill:] Oh yeah. [J Marsden:] by about this this amount. Which would mean the headrail [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] it would be air-packed. [John:] Oh I see otherwise it's not going to hang [J Marsden:] you'll have to have a couple of washers [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] into it just otherwise it would it would bend the headrail up [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] which might sort of [Gill:] Well also the rest of it's going to look a bit weird at the bottom isn't it? It wouldn't [J Marsden:] That's right it would it would pull pull the bottom [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] bit up as well. It probably w probably wouldn't er run properly if [Gill:] No. [J Marsden:] if it was bent. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Right. [John:] Which end do the controls normally come? On the right end? [J Marsden:] Er whichever whichever side you'd like. [John:] Cos you could sh I mean we've got the curtains sort of left handed, it might be an idea to have the blind pull on the left hand end as well. [Gill:] Yes it's a bit more difficult to get at [J Marsden:] Another thing erm to tell you is erm the blinds, they can either erm bunch in the left hand side, [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] right hand side [clears throat] excuse me, or it can be split. [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Oh I see. [J Marsden:] There's not difference in the cost on that one. [Gill:] Mm that splitting sounds nice. [John:] Splitting [J Marsden:] It's a good idea on a window this size. [Gill:] Mm. Cos it's it's wide isn't Yeah. [John:] Yes it is cos otherwise you end up with a big big [J Marsden:] Yes, on this window, if you had them all bunched at one side, it would be [Gill:] Take up half half one of these [J Marsden:] this sort of [Gill:] windows wouldn't it? [J Marsden:] Yeah quite a bit. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] As opposed to two like that. [Gill:] Yeah which is obviously better [John:] . [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Were there any in particular that you liked? [Gill:] What well mainly what what is the I mean, these thinner ones, presumably they would do the job as well as I don't know I mean, it's keeping out What I want to do is to keep out the sun. [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] From the furniture so [J Marsden:] They'll all they'll all keep the sun out, [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] But what will happen however is erm... when the sun is directly on them [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] it'll sort of erm light them up it'll be very [John:] Yeah, [Gill:] Mhm. You'll have a glare. [J Marsden:] It'll very yeah, very white [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] erm st quite strong white glare [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] will will come up the blind. But it will actually stop the direct rays of the sun so you know [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] for to protect your furnishings [Gill:] That's right yeah. [J Marsden:] It w it'll take erm... roughly about erm... it'll perhaps stop about half the light [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] coming into the room. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Erm when the when that's when the sun's directly [Gill:] Yes yeah cos it's really only the the worst of the sun in the middle of the day in the Summer I think that does most of the damage. Although the light does light rots anyway doesn't it. [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] But er mm. Well it's got to be one of the pure white ones whatever. And can you tell me anything about the materials that are actually cos they don't [J Marsden:] Yes I can [John:] Are are they better heavier than light or [J Marsden:] Erm... I think it's just it's just personal erm preference really [Gill:] It's choice is it whatever you the l the look rather than [John:] Mm. [Gill:] I just wondered is any of them were were going to do a better job than [J Marsden:] I think w I think when it comes down to s durability they're all [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] pretty much the same. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Apart from there's erm there's one at the back of the book which is er machine washable. [Gill:] Aha. [J Marsden:] You can actually put them in your washing machine. [John:] That sounds like a nice idea. [Gill:] Does it? [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Unless erm you've got sort of [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] a problem with a heavy smoker or [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] a coal fire or that kind of thing. [John:] There's not much [Gill:] There's not much point is there? [J Marsden:] They should go they should go for quite a number of years. [Gill:] Yes yes. [J Marsden:] Witho without any maintenance. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Erm you know these these are the various fabrics, you know, this is what they're made from. [John:] Oh most of them are polyester. [Gill:] Oh they're made polyester. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] So they're in fact they're virtually all polyester aren't they. [J Marsden:] Yeah. If they do need er cleaning, the advice is to use erm a a very mild detergent and erm a damp cloth. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] But only just damp. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mhm so you don't soak it. [J Marsden:] Yes because they've all got erm a stiffening agent [Gill:] Right. Yes. [J Marsden:] in the fabric. And if they get too wet they will wrinkle. [Gill:] Mhm. Yeah. Mm.... Well I don't know. Difficult to say isn't it. I hate being pressed for choices. [J Marsden:] Just as well to give you an idea, erm they come in they come in various price [Gill:] Yes. [J Marsden:] categories. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Erm with the headrail that you were looking at, it's this one and they come they go from er one to six. Erm for instance, the cheapest one, the one that is is that one. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] That's erm price category one. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Er this one for instance, is er... er here we go. Yeah that's the most expensive. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] And so fifty percent off on this one is going to work out more expensive than thirty three percent off [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] on that one. [Gill:] Mhm.... Mm.... [John:] It's difficult to work out why some of these should be so much more expensive than others isn't it? [Gill:] What about that one? [John:] Spice? [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] A lot of it A lot of it is just is just down to erm marketing [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] I think and erm [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] I think erm most most of the people who do blinds, do some sort of system like this [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And erm... I suppose it would make it would be a lot more logical if all the blinds were just the same price all the time. [John:] Yes and you chose. [J Marsden:] Y but yes but we're by doing some form of sale [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] people see the the word sale [John:] Yeah I know [J Marsden:] They feel more inclined to buy them. And er [Gill:] actually [J Marsden:] it's just it's just unfortunate if the one if you the one that you like doesn't happen [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] to be in the sale at that particular time. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] You know, in three months or six months time [John:] It might be. [J Marsden:] Yes. [Gill:] Mm.... Some of them are definitely denser than others aren't they. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] you know. difference I don't suppose actually got the direct sun on it. Mm.... [J Marsden:] Yeah m my erm I live on Road, [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] so my er this in my house this is a patio window. [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] And er w we've got the seating along that wall [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and that one and so erm what I do in the Summer as you said, when the sun's sort of at two o'clock [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] one o'clock, it's over there, and I angle my blinds in this direction and so Yes [Gill:] Yes yeah that's it and you can do this still can't you and you can still see out. [J Marsden:] From from the the seats we can still see out into the garden but it keeps We've got the television over in this corner [Gill:] And you can still see [J Marsden:] It ke Yeah we can still see the telly. [Gill:] Aha. [J Marsden:] Also it keeps the sun off it. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And keeps it off the carpet as well. [John:] Yes. [Gill:] That's right yeah. Mm. I quite like that one actually. [John:] Spice, mm. [Gill:] Mm.... Just not too plain, it's got some... some [J Marsden:] Yeah that's quite a popular one that is [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] A lady at 's just erm ordered one of those this morning. [Gill:] I think I like that one actually. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] What do you think. [John:] Well I you know I [Gill:] Doesn't make a I know. [J Marsden:] It doesn't make a lot of difference really. Once they're up they're up. [Gill:] Once they're up they erm up you you're not gonna notice really after a while [J Marsden:] Mm. [Gill:] what it what it is. [J Marsden:] Some of them erm the pattern [Gill:] But I Yes that one I think. [J Marsden:] shows through more than others. [Gill:] Yes. [J Marsden:] If you want to take them out of the book [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] and just hold them up to light you quite welcome to do so. [Gill:] Mm yes well I can actually see you know [John:] That that's got a sort of a [Gill:] You've got a line across there [John:] which I think's quite attractive. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] How l how long are they supposed to last, things like this? Or is that a stupid question? [Gill:] depends on [J Marsden:] I don't know. [Gill:] your house and what you what you do in it [J Marsden:] Yeah. I've got erm a fourteen month old baby [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] and er erm I've only got one vertical and that's on the patio and of course it's within his reach [John:] yeah. [J Marsden:] We've got the er chains on the bottom that interlink the louvres so grabbing hold of those [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and giving them a good pull. So how long the blinds' re going to last I don't know. [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Perhaps about another six months [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] we did know somebody erm down on actually who had a a vertical blind and several of the chains had broken or disappeared on the bottom of that [J Marsden:] Yeah. [John:] the the blind worked alright. [Gill:] But that's probably not gonna happen along there there won't be anything else on the windowsill. [John:] That's it was it was as you say over a patio door, it was actually being used as an entrance door as well [J Marsden:] Yeah. [John:] so people were constantly sort of shoving this aside and walking through. [J Marsden:] little dogs as well tend to er get tangled up [John:] Yes. [J Marsden:] in the bottom [Gill:] Yes. [J Marsden:] of blinds. [Gill:] Or cats in her in her case it was cats, yes. [John:] It was cats in her case. [J Marsden:] Had to replace one erm er Close [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] the other week [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] and that was in a right state. the lady's had it about ten years but she's got a little dog as well. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] And erm there were hardly any chains left on it. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Well I think it is They ought to last a fair time they I mean it's not gonna be abused really is it at those windows? [John:] No [J Marsden:] Shall I work you a price out [Gill:] Work it out for that one please. [John:] Yes please. [J Marsden:] Right.... [Gill:] Got some lovely colours. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] I don't really think [John:] Be a bit heavy there wouldn't it I think. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] The thing to bear in mind with the colours is erm Well I wasn't gonna say that [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] Well that I was thinking actually with that colour. [] [J Marsden:] You might do I do erm... red one might fade a bit I don't know. [Gill:] Mm [J Marsden:] Generally w red erm red cars sure they fade. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Yes yes. [J Marsden:] I've made made that mistake in the past. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] I I buy white now. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Or [Gill:] Yes. No I think white for here is best cos the sun is quite I mean you get quite a lot of sun don't you on on on this side of the house. [J Marsden:] Yeah with erm with the colours though that's what I was going to say, the thing to bear in mind is it's like choosing erm paint or wallpaper. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] You see a small sample there you think, oh yeah that that's quite good. But when it's [Gill:] When it's a big [J Marsden:] when it's a lot bigger it's the the the shade [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] tends to be t to seem a lot darker. All the colouring, a lot more bold. You know, the larger the area.... [John:] sit down. It's ages since I've been able to sit on the windowsill. [Gill:] Is it? [John:] Mm.... [Gill:] Oh the radiator [John:] radiator is turned up. Mm. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] have another go. [J Marsden:] Right, the one you fancied was Spice was it? [Gill:] Yes it was. [J Marsden:] Right. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Having trouble with both these pens today, I left them in the car last night, I think they must have got a bit cold. [John:] I've got borrow this borrow this blue one if you like.... It was working. [Gill:] Do you want to sit down? [J Marsden:] Yeah thanks.... Right.... [John:] well I can push this back against the... space again. [Gill:] ... [J Marsden:] Right you [cough] you said you'd prefer a white head rail didn't you? [Gill:] Yes. [John:] Yes. [J Marsden:] Yeah. Erm there are two two other erm factors I've got to look at [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] to work the price out. Erm I mentioned earlier chains on the bottom of the louvres. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Which they're er a little chains which which [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] interlink the louvres. The idea behind them is that erm the louvres Yeah they hang a bit more erm evenly. Erm just difference they would make to the price.... [John:] These back ones, the so called concept ones are all machine washable. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] So it said. [Gill:] Oh well. [J Marsden:] Yeah I think th there are some there that aren't actually. [John:] Oh. [J Marsden:] That book's not quite correct. Erm... these are these are definitely. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Erm... We've just the they've just been altered actually [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] since Christmas. I think... yeah, the information that you see on here is incorrect I'm afraid, it's just [John:] Yeah, it's just those. [J Marsden:] Yeah. They should have some stickers on saying machine wash washable. [John:] Yeah.... [Gill:] I don't know. [J Marsden:] But I'm fairly certain it's just those. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] It'll be alright as long as as long as you keep them [John:] Yeah, I could see your mother going [J Marsden:] the idea behind this machine washable bit it's [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] for it's er places like erm pubs or [Gill:] Where you've got smokers or you've got an open fire [J Marsden:] canteens [Gill:] or something Yes [J Marsden:] Yeah. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] More of a commercial thing. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] And erm we've just actually we've just erm I've not got a sample of it, we've just got another louvre called a which is erm a P V C it's more sort of similar to erm erm you know the the slats on a venetian blind [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] similar to one of those. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] But actually in the vertical. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Totally different. [Gill:] But they can just be wiped anyway. [J Marsden:] Yes. [John:] Mm.... That was a job I always hated, wiping the venetian blind. spend all day and still not get it out. [Gill:] I thought the idea was to keep them dusted al if you can keep them dusted regularly then [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Feather duster's a good idea.... [John:] A tremendous range of choice though haven't they? Mm. [Gill:] ... You can colour coordinate almost anything. [John:] ... The one in the in the you know the erm machine washable ones is an almost exact match to this. [Gill:] I think it would I think the colour would fade [John:] Yeah probably. You'd have the same problem with the blinds you're trying to avoid with er [Gill:] And I know white discolours as well but then I think. [John:] ... [Gill:] No I'm not keen.... [John:] I assume you didn't want to think about the kitchen? No.... [Gill:] . [John:] Yeah. that's one place you would need it to be washable. [Gill:] We've got a blind anyway [John:] Given the Yes. Mm. [Gill:] which you just pull down to wherever you need it in the Summer. [J Marsden:] Erm yes, one other thing. Erm it's affects the price. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and that's the erm width of the louvre. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] [clears throat] The ones that you see in the book they're three and a half inches. Erm the other one is a five inch [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] which is kind of width. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] Erm it's entirely yo don't to your own personal choice which one you go for. However, the three and a half inch works out more expensive. [John:] Because you've got more of them. [Gill:] Because you've got more of them. [J Marsden:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] About fifteen percent er ro roughly fifteen percent extra. [Gill:] What width has your mum got then? [John:] There's plenty of width there. [J Marsden:] on a large window like this you'd you'd get away with the five inch one. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] look out of place. [J Marsden:] It's only on the sort of very small windows that it would look [John:] Mm. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] too big. [John:] Yeah all right It's because it'll be that reduces then the number of pieces of machinery and the number of [Gill:] Mm. [John:] It also means that they'll draw back to a a narrower profile doesn't it.... Is that rotten dog snoring again? [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] She seems to spend all day asleep, I don't know what she does at night? Does she sleep at night as well?... [J Marsden:] Yeah I think erm actually my there's probably nothing wrong with my pens, I'm trying to write on the back of this paper it's paper [Gill:] Yes it's not Yes. Mm. [J Marsden:] Right the price erm f for erm that Spice, that comes out at one hundred and seventeen pounds [John:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] eighty pence. Erm if that's sounds too much,th the way we could make it cheaper it erm not to have erm the interlinking chains. The the cost of those on a blind this size is sixteen pounds. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] Erm if if you didn't have those erm what would happen instead is the erm, the louvres are a are still weighted at the bottom but it's a slightly smaller weight. It's actually and it's actually sewn in into the louvre as opposed to the er the larger weights. They just slot through and then the chains clip on. So that one would come out then at erm just over a hundred pounds. [John:] Mm. It's up to you, do you want the chains on the bottom or? Well I think so yes yeah. You know you know what's gonna happen i if they aren't. [Gill:] Well they would tend to swing around a bit more. [J Marsden:] Well what tends to happen is erm when when the blinds erm... the only time it's a bit noticeable is when the blinds completely closed. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] Because what you n notice is there's about sort of erm getting on towards half an inch overlap between the louvres. And that's the noticeable part because [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mm. [J Marsden:] it erm it's you're doubling the material thickness and so you tend to you get dark [Gill:] You'll see lines [J Marsden:] dark strips. [Gill:] And so you might see of them. [J Marsden:] That's right some which m could possibly a bit wider than [Gill:] Yeah [J Marsden:] others. [Gill:] Yeah yeah it'll look like stripes that are on uneven. [J Marsden:] Yeah, the chains are more important the the higher the window is. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] On a small window really not [Gill:] That's quite a e erm a high window really isn't it cos it's [J Marsden:] Yeah. [Gill:] the windowsill is low. [J Marsden:] You're sort of halfway betwe yeah between the an average size window and a patio. [Gill:] And a patio yeah. Yeah. [John:] Go with the chains [Gill:] I I would think it would actually hang better. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Yeah yeah. [J Marsden:] you that that price is okay then is it? [John:] I would think so yes. [Gill:] Mm mm. [J Marsden:] Some people are quite shocked when they find out it's more than [Gill:] Oh. [J Marsden:] than than they were quoted over the phone but [John:] Having having erm been into various things like this I think we're almost unshockable by now. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Er what we are gonna do and obviously we're in the process of, you're the first at the moment, is to have two or three quotations from different people. [J Marsden:] Yeah sure. [John:] To do it so erm if if you can let us have a copy in writing of your [J Marsden:] Yeah I'll I'll erm I'll give you a full quote And then erm if erm if you get somebody else in [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] who's erm who's offering offering you an equivalent system [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] to the one that I've come up with erm I E the white headrail and [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] which operates in the same way [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and with a very similar fabric, then I'll try and my best to to beat their quote. [John:] Understood. [J Marsden:] You know, we don't like to be beaten. [John:] Well no. Although I've no doubt you know better than we do what the opposition are [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Well [John:] are offering or not. [J Marsden:] I think we're all pretty much the same actually. [John:] Yes. Yeah yeah. [Gill:] Yeah well [J Marsden:] My blinds are in my house erm... none of them are blinds [John:] Mm. [J Marsden:] because I bought them all before t I started [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] started this job and er I I've got erm [John:] No I haven't approached them, I've contacted Blinds haven't I. [Gill:] I don't know who you've [John:] I've got a list upstairs of various people I've got one person [Gill:] You've only got one Yes you've got somebody coming [J Marsden:] I got my I got my vertical from the one at Newark and the venetian blind centre. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] And erm I don't think there's a lot to to choose from actually. [John:] Yes we were gonna go in and see them weren't we? [Gill:] I d I don't know. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] You did the phoning I [LAUGHTER] haven't got a clue []. [John:] . [J Marsden:] Yeah they've got books very similar and I think they're pricing structure's pretty similar as well. [John:] Yeah. Mm. roughly the same, I expect we shall go with you. [J Marsden:] Well be more essentially the the material [Gill:] The only thing that I've just thought about actually is window wh in the me on the measurement side rather than anything else is that I haven't Because we've just had those windows replaced, I haven't finished decorating around the top. This wood- chip paper does It's fairly thick isn't it as a paper, will that make a lot of difference to your actually measurement that you make. I know it's about about that much isn't it. [J Marsden:] Yeah erm w what I've done, I've measured I've taken an exact measurement, [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] from the lintel to the [Gill:] And obviously it's go it's gotta be [J Marsden:] And the blind is then made approximately er twenty millimetres shorter [Gill:] So that it'll allow for [J Marsden:] So we're talking about three quarters of an inch. [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] So th [Gill:] Cause o the the frame at the bottom is gonna [J Marsden:] Yeah it's guaranteed to to clear the sill [Gill:] Yeah just ab I just thought I'd mention it just [LAUGHTER] in case. [J Marsden:] Yeah. And also when I took the measurement, I took actually took it [Gill:] You took [J Marsden:] from the smallest and also [Gill:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] That lintel, there's quite a big slope on it as well, [Gill:] There is isn't there. [J Marsden:] And it slopes towards the window so I've actually taken the measurement nearest the erm windows itself to be on the safe side. [Gill:] In fact I bit silly because this was the only room I didn't bother to finish round the windows and round the doorway. And I didn't make any mess whatsoever, I mean you wouldn't know replaced the window. [J Marsden:] Yeah. [Gill:] So I wished I'd done it all in the first place, now I've got to do it. [LAUGHTER] [John:] That was your mother. Had had [Gill:] Oh she wanted to know about the door. we heard anything about the door. I said no. They were only gonna ring us if there was anything wrong and I had this horrible feeling at that point that that was the vet ringing up to say things had gone wrong. [J Marsden:] It's number fifteen isn't it? [John:] It's fifteen yeah.... Yes you're actually e sitting outside the original house, as it was built cos we had a room put on for the the back here originally. [J Marsden:] Oh I see. [John:] That was the end of the house. It's all a bit confusing now cos we've I've just finished altering the whole of the middle of it but this It was a twenty four foot long main lounge. [J Marsden:] Yeah. [John:] Just straight through to the front of the house. With a fireplace in the middle, but they've now put dividing walls in, taken the old frame out from the back and this was originally built as an additional room on the back. [J Marsden:] yeah. [John:] But we've now moved the music things that we had out here, into the little room at the front. [J Marsden:] Right. Is is that er, [John:] Turned this into a lou [J Marsden:] that wall there er an original wall? [John:] The one on the left is, the one on the right isn't. I've only just finished building the one on the right. [Gill:] on that side. [John:] That was the cupboard under the stairs, it's now a cloakroom. [J Marsden:] Yeah. Yeah m my father in law lives on Place [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] and er I'm just trying to work out if it's the same style as this. [John:] This is a four-bedroomed one. [Gill:] They're very similar. [John:] They're very similar. [Gill:] Yes the ones round there are they're they're the same yeah. [John:] They're the same pattern [Gill:] The three and four bedroom.... [John:] People who knew us before and haven't been here since get terribly confused when they walk in and rather wonder everything has gone to. Did that get too much heat when I was gone? [Gill:] No. They don't l they want more light. [John:] Yeah. Well they're not gonna get it are they. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [John:] It's alright it wasn't the vet it was your grandmother. [LAUGHTER]... I would assume by now that erm you know that they've finished operating and it's alright.... Cos they normally do them after they've done their morning surgery don't they, some time about half ten or eleven. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] I think.... lampshade. [Gill:] Well the other thing I was thinking of was if we if we felt we needed to put a new roller blind at the window [John:] Mm. [Gill:] I mean plain white ones whatever [John:] No. [Gill:] . [John:] Although that's never a problem is it with large [Gill:] I don't think it needs No I I don't think it really needs one but if we did. [J Marsden:] Sorry where were you thinking of doing a roller? [Gill:] Well I was just wo wondering about that window but I pr I think I prefer just a curtain and I don't think I could put both there because the roller. [J Marsden:] I was gonna say y could probably do a roller in the same fabric as [Gill:] Yeah [John:] Mm. [Gill:] It's just that I've I mean I want a curtain there as well because otherwise it all looks a bit heavy but I don't think I could put a blind down there because of the way [J Marsden:] I don't think you'd get [Gill:] We wouldn't No I wo [John:] Apart from anything else, the door won't open. [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] No that's the other problem isn't it. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] It's bad enough with a curtain rail on there. [J Marsden:] the only other alternative would to actually put it itself. [John:] Oh we've got the curtain is on the door itself. [J Marsden:] Oh the curtain is on the door. [Gill:] Yes otherwise the door won't open properly will it. [John:] But the er the the cle the clearance when the door is open to the the piece of wall there is only that much. [J Marsden:] Oh I see. [John:] That's a I I had to do a little bit of er adaption work on the on the curtain rail put that on.... [J Marsden:] Right. There's your quote then. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Get me glasses get me glasses. [LAUGHTER] [J Marsden:] Alright so that was the colour wasn't it [John:] Yes. [J Marsden:] the Spice White? Erm [John:] . [J Marsden:] So I've quoted you there for the chains. [John:] Five inch width. [J Marsden:] Five inch yeah. The three and a half inch is as I said it's approximately [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] fifteen percent extra. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] But the five inch would be okay on there. [John:] Yeah. [J Marsden:] This is just this bunch and control. I you decide to order it, which side split or whatever and where you want the controls [Gill:] Aha I see. Yeah. [John:] Well we we we'd want the controls on the left and we want them to be split. [Gill:] We don't need to worry about that. [J Marsden:] Mhm. [John:] But that do that doesn't matter yet. [J Marsden:] Right and a white headrail as well. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mhm. [J Marsden:] A hundred and seventeen eighty. That is that is a complete price including VAT and that includes includes [John:] Includes fitting. [J Marsden:] fitting on them as well. [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Who comes and does the fitting? You? [J Marsden:] Me. [John:] Right. [J Marsden:] Same person. [John:] O odd occasion we'll come across people you know who yes he seems to be the right person and then somebody else turns up to do [recording ends]

[John:] listen in to everything which is [Markus:] Oh right. [John:] said. If I can get you to scrawl your signature and today's date which is the twenty fifth on there. Right, is your signature readable? Ah could you print your name [Markus:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's just that she needs your name, the fact that you're male,th an approximate age within five years. [Markus:] that information. [John:] Erm basically Oh right er twenty five plus. [Gill:] I don't know why people are a bit touchy about their ages to be perfectly honest. You know. [John:] erm what is your job basically? You're a [Markus:] Well I suppose I'm a a blind salesman. [John:] Salesman [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] Blind salesman, that sounds good doesn't it. [] [Markus:] And fitter. I fit it as well. [John:] And fitter. Right. [Markus:] So I have to make sure it's measured right. [Gill:] You can't blame anybody else for anything can you. [John:] Okay that's lovely thanks very much. Right. [Markus:] Right, it's not gonna fall down on your plants. If you get the middle about the middle of it. [John:] Dead in the middle, yeah. Or alive in the middle as they say. [Markus:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You want that supported.... [Markus:] Right. That is... right thank you. [John:] ... with the lights fading, it's gonna be five o'clock in half an hour's time, feed the dogs just before five and then see you you see. [Markus:] I was a bit quicker in Newark than I thought. [John:] It's a good place to be quicker in. [Markus:] [LAUGHTER]... [John:] delicate measurements. [Markus:] Yeah well we don't want it brushing on your [John:] The trouble is I'm quite sure that the plasterers never did that. [LAUGHTER] They they just slop it up don't they. [Markus:] Yeah. There is a bit of difference actually. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Yes there is quite a bit of difference [John:] Well we realized that when we had the windows changed. [Gill:] Yes I [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] I haven't quite finished wallpapering, I don't think that's gonna make a lot of difference is it to the. [Markus:] ... Right, I've got a range of prices. Erm [John:] Essentially we need to know what what you can do and what you can't do and [Markus:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [John:] What's av We've never ever bought a blind.... [Markus:] Right. Now what kind of colour were you looking for? [Gill:] White. [Markus:] White. [Gill:] It must be white. I don't think anything else is going to. [Markus:] Er that's our reduced one. That would be sixty nine pounds. [Gill:] Mhm. What are they made of? [Markus:] Erm well they're usually [Gill:] Or doesn't that matter. [Markus:] Well i a they're all polyester or [Gill:] Yeah. [Markus:] erm some are fibreglass. [Gill:] . [Markus:] Yeah.. These are the washable ones. [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] These are the most expensive. [Gill:] Mhm. [Markus:] These have just come in in the last year. Bu I mean I'd only advise those if you have like er you know, children with grubby hands and [Gill:] Or smokers. [Markus:] Or sm whatever yeah, where it's gonna get really dirty. [John:] And we don't have children with grubby hands. [Gill:] No it's just you. [Markus:] Well you see with those you can stick them in the washing machine. [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] And your dryer and you can iron them. Right, these are your whites. Erm I'll tell you how we price them. Erm the higher up it goes, the more expensive it is. [Gill:] Mhm. [Markus:] Mhm. [Gill:] Mhm. [Markus:] With anything. That's a C you see, that would one [Gill:] Mhm. [Markus:] Erm that's an A, that would be ninety eight ad so on. [Gill:] Aha right. Yeah. [Markus:] have a look [Gill:] I quite like that sort of texture actually, that's you know that's quite [John:] Oh yes yes that's quite nice that is. [Gill:] ... [Markus:] Which is a D. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mm. See it's quite nice but [John:] We've got just a bit of sun. [Gill:] . [John:] I can't see the difference between that one and the one that was. Oh yes there is, this is slightly closer weave. [Markus:] Mm. It just depends how difficult they are to weave and that that usually makes them you know, more expensive. And if it's a difficult pattern. [John:] Well we wanted something that you know, wasn't just completely plain white, that had got either [Markus:] Yeah. [John:] a bit of texture or a pit of pattern in it when the light's shining through it. [Markus:] We've got some beiges as well that a few are quite sort of close to white. [John:] Yeah.... [Markus:] I mean if you're interested in one I'll take one out because [Gill:] Well [Markus:] if you hold them up to the light then you see them [Gill:] Yes and then you see through That one's got a [Markus:] You'll have to hold it up to [Gill:] Yeah. [Markus:] in front of that light then [John:] Mm. [Markus:] you can see it [John:] Mm. [Markus:] Yes this is probably see them at night time. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Yes. [Gill:] Yes. I quite quite like that that one. Which I think is the same. [Markus:] Well on theirs I'm allowed to give you a discount, I bring that down to a B. The higher up you're going. [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] I mean I can get a bit more off you see. [John:] Right. [Markus:] So I can give you a B a B price for that one.... [Gill:] It's difficult to say well I mean suppose with all of these, the the light the sunlight is going to [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] is gonna be diffused enough isn't it. [Markus:] Mm. [John:] Yeah yeah. Cos you can see [Gill:] Yes it's [John:] see quite a bit through. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] that one. [Gill:] Well that would make [Markus:] Yes you can yes. But it's it it would still [Gill:] denser. [Markus:] it would still you know erm... stop stop the sunlight from you know, [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] spoiling your T V programs or something. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Or stopping it from rotting the furniture. [Gill:] Yeah my main er our main problem is the [Markus:] Oh right yeah. [Gill:] carpet because this this stuff does fade rather. [Markus:] You're probably better off with something with a bit more texture to it then. [Gill:] Mm. A bit denser. more open weave isn't it. thicker [Markus:] I mean they will they will protect your furniture it's just that they'll take all the battering then from the sun. [John:] Mm. [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] I know white will probably d discolour a bit won't it. [Markus:] Over [Gill:] It's erm [Markus:] a long period of time, I mean we give a guarantee of two years on material. [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] And a ten year guarantee on the headrail. So [John:] Mm [Markus:] If in the future you wanted just to change your louvres, [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] you know, you can do that. You can do it that way and it works out a lot cheaper. [John:] H how much do the louvres cost as a proportion of the [Markus:] Erm I think it's about half. [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] It's about half yeah. [John:] So you could you could replace the blind if you redecorated and changed the colour [Markus:] Oh yeah. [John:] scheme or something like that for about half the price. [Markus:] Yeah.... [John:] It doesn't look like [Markus:] Yeah they don't call them other than beige and white and. [Gill:] I'm assuming that the that when they're actually made, when they're cut, they are actually cut absolutely dead straight on the [LAUGHTER] the grain of the erm the weave. [Markus:] Yeah. [Gill:] or otherwise you you know [Markus:] No no they're gonna be dead straight. [Gill:] Er well it would be absolutely wouldn't they? [Markus:] Yes yes. [Gill:] It's just that some of these of course, the ones that have got like a square textured, [Markus:] No you wouldn't get any sort [John:] They'd look a bit funny if they were sort of [Gill:] They would they would look weird if they weren't exactly. [John:] Mm. [Markus:] Oh no they'd they'd be cut like you see them there. [Gill:] Perfect yeah. [LAUGHTER] If I got something and it wasn't [Markus:] The price includes VAT, [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] includes the fitting. [John:] What's the waiting time? [Markus:] The weighting? Wh [Gill:] How long to wait? [Markus:] Oh the waiting time. Sorry I thought you were talking about the weights on the [John:] Oh no no no. [Markus:] [LAUGHTER] Erm it's two to three weeks [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] maximum. Erm if it's if you're desperate for them we can rush it in [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] a bit bit quicker. [Gill:] Mm. That one is not bad. It's slightly it's slightly I don't know I I still like that one actually I mean w [John:] There probably isn't no. That's liable to catch the dust a bit more than that I suppose. [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] Well you've got to brush on the [Markus:] When they Yeah [Gill:] As long as you do them fairly regularly, you're not going to have any problems as far as erm [John:] That's acrylic and the other one you were looking at was fibreglass. [Gill:] Mm. Yes it yes it No I still like that one actually. [John:] Yeah.... Well it's you know, it's up to you you can look at whatever. [Markus:] I'd give you the discount on that as well. [John:] The lakes one was an E [Gill:] No it was a it was an E I think. [Markus:] Oh an E. [Gill:] I think it was an E [Markus:] That would be a hundred and fifty two, two hundred and thirty eight. [Gill:] I'm not so keen on that much of a St I still prefer that. [Markus:] It's difficult isn't it when you've got a [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] Well too much choice [Markus:] bit of choice. [Gill:] is is is fatal isn't it? [John:] We've got Spice and we've got Snowdrop and the expense what was the expensive one?... Dune. [Gill:] .... [John:] You like that? [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Dune.... [Gill:] It's just got some. [John:] Yeah it wouldn't wouldn't matter if it was cut slightly off square either would it. [Gill:] Well it's not quite [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Markus:] and you get the dunes effect when you've [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] when you've got them all up. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Oh they th [Gill:] Well of course you will won't you because you're gonna go right the way across. [John:] Always assuming they match together. [Gill:] Well no they wouldn't match together but that doesn't matter. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm might might be a problem for you. [Gill:] No it wouldn't be a problem might be a problem for a my mother [John:] Er your mother yes. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] So what would that [Markus:] Well I'll drop that down to a C, that'd be a hundred and fourteen. [John:] A hundred and fourteen. [Gill:] Mm. Cos that looks quite a nice one. [John:] Mm. [Gill:] I want something really that's not absolutely completely dead plain. [Markus:] Mm. [John:] Well [Gill:] Because it's quite a bit window. [Markus:] Yeah. [Gill:] I think mind you the rest of the walls, everything else is white so [Markus:] Want something that's a bit interesting in your living room don't you. [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] You know, depending on what kind of decor you have. But you've got white walls [Gill:] Yes. Well I I don't think we can go on any other sort of colour. [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] Cos I think a big expanse of something that matched this would be awful really. [Markus:] Well I was just I was just thinking, if you had a patterned paper and then you had you're pattern in your [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] your blind as well [Gill:] Well yes, I think we'll have to stick to white. I think that's. The background. [Markus:] Mm.... [John:] well we've got some sort of sorting out and thinking to do haven't we? [Gill:] Yeah, what about the erm... oh what do you call the top bit of the rail? [John:] Oh the the rail [Gill:] The erm. [John:] Yes erm. Wh which side do do do they go to the side? [Markus:] They actually go, you can have them at either side, [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] erm you can have your controls at either side, the bunch going to either side. And you can [Gill:] Can you have it going from the middle? [Markus:] You can have the bunch splitting. [Gill:] Cos it being a big window I think [Markus:] Yeah. [Gill:] it's better. [Markus:] I'll just tell you about if you have it splitting. [Gill:] Mhm. [Markus:] Erm the two middle louvres that come together will overlap slightly more than the others. [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Right. [Markus:] So the shadow w when the sun's shining [Gill:] You can see a slightly thicker one. [Markus:] becomes sl er slightly larger. [John:] Mm. [Markus:] That's the only er difference with those. [Gill:] But if er if it all going to one side I think it's going to be take up half the window won't it. [John:] I think it could be very heavy here wouldn't it. [Markus:] Mm. [Gill:] look better going. [Markus:] It wouldn't quite take up it wouldn't take up half the window. [Gill:] Wouldn't it? [Markus:] No. [John:] But a fair amount. [Markus:] It also depends if you have your windows open and you've got them each side and a bit of a wind, they'll be flapping. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] think about that as well. [Gill:] Mm I I I still think the middle. [John:] You want it to open from the middle? [Markus:] Yeah. [John:] It's this sense of proportion isn't it? [Gill:] No it's not really what I prefer. [John:] Yes. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right. [Gill:] And what about the bottoms? Presumably they're chained. [Markus:] They're they're they're all chained together [Gill:] Mm. [Markus:] with weights. [Gill:] And they they go a hundred and eighty [Markus:] Yeah. [Gill:] degrees? [Markus:] That's right yeah. [Gill:] Cos obviously that's quite necessary. [Markus:] Mm yeah. [Gill:] The way the sun comes. [John:] Which end do you want to have the controls? [Gill:] Well it would have to be this end. [John:] You want the controls this end? [Gill:] No no sorry same end as the other one, same end yes the same end. Yeah it's a bit more difficult to get in there isn't it. [Markus:] Do you want to order now or do you want a quote? [Gill:] Could you quote? [John:] Probably the best is a quote. [Gill:] And then we'll [John:] Cos we've got one more person to talk to [Markus:] Right. [John:] yet. [Markus:] Okey-doke. [John:] . if you can give us the the two alternatives for the the Dunes one and the... Spice [Markus:] Oh I'd better just er. So it's the Dunes is the... [Gill:] That one. [Markus:] that one. [John:] The dunes is the preferred one. [Markus:] Is the preferred one. And then there's the Spice. [John:] Mm. [Markus:] And was it the Snowdrop? [Gill:] No. [Markus:] just those two? [Gill:] Just those two.... I like the texture of that other one. [John:] Which one? [Gill:] That well the. [John:] The Spice one. [Gill:] Spice one but er [John:] Yeah. You like the pattern of the Dunes one. [Gill:] Well no it's not that I just think it's the I don't know you can see through it more. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] I [Markus:] Is it Mr? [John:] yeah. As in the flower. [Markus:] And the address again please. [John:] . [Markus:] And your phone number? [John:] is. Why am I saying all these. [Markus:] With the er white headrail or chocolate brown? [Gill:] White. [Markus:] White? [John:] White.... That doesn't make any difference to price does it? [Markus:] No.... [John:] What width are the are the vanes of the the louvres. [Markus:] Er they're five inch. [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] These are three and a half so they'd be slightly longer. [John:] Yeah yeah. [Markus:] Slightly wider. [John:] Mhm.... Well I hope they will be slightly longer. [Markus:] [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. Right. You want it split? [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] And you want it er controls on the [John:] Left.... [Markus:] And the other one was Spice White.... Right I'll write this out again and if you decide to go ahead, [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] then just cross the one out you don't want. [John:] Okay. [Gill:] Mhm. [John:] Yeah. Otherwise you get two. [LAUGHTER] [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] Which could be quite fun. Well you you'd have no problem with sun penetration then would you. [Gill:] No you're right dear. [John:] No. [Markus:] That would be [John:] We already have a roller blind on the outside [Markus:] I see [John:] which is useful for taking the heat off the window itself in the Summer. [Markus:] Yeah. [Gill:] But it doesn't have any effect [John:] It doesn't take the light off. [Gill:] . [John:] I mean that's got a very open weave texture. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] ... [Markus:] Ten... Right, I'll let you fill that in when you're [John:] Okay yeah.... [Markus:] It's a Newark phone number, yeah?... Right....... There's a little bit more for you. competition on the toes. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Markus:] Right I'll give you these. [John:] Right. [Markus:] Erm if you want to go ahead with it, pull the top one off, [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] pop it into one of these prepaid envelopes [John:] Right. [Markus:] with the deposit in. And it'll be twenty pound deposit. Twenty pounds. [Gill:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] And then as soon as our office gets that it'll be two to three weeks. [Gill:] Right. [John:] That says plus thirty, that's that's inclusive. [Markus:] No Well I'll just put it on. [John:] Thought thought I'd better ask. [LAUGHTER] [Markus:] Yes yes.... [John:] Thank you. [Markus:] and that'll be attached and when we come to fit it, if you keep hold of the one you keep [John:] Yeah. [Markus:] you needn't sign that now It looks a bit complicated but [John:] No no. [Gill:] No not really. [John:] got the idea. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Well that's marvellous thank you. [Gill:] I've been thinking about these blinds for such a long time. [John:] Yeah. [Gill:] Really just I mean a roller blind's just too the window's too wide for a roller blind. And then at least you can see through while you're shading the sun from that direction and then [Markus:] That's right yeah. [Gill:] the other direction. seemed to be the answer. [John:] Well thank you very much. [Gill:] Yes, you've got your measure. [LAUGHTER] [Markus:] I've got my measure yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. I've just well and truly broken mine, you know I chipped the end of the [Gill:] Yeah. [John:] tape on the it went and did it again on me now and it's well and truly gone I'll have to buy another one. It was a nice idea. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [Markus:] put this back. [Gill:] Oh don't worry it's very very it's very easy. [Markus:] There you go. [John:] They're all on rollers these days. [Markus:] Oh right. [John:] Right thank you very much indeed. Hello there goes the phone. [Markus:] I'll answer it dear [John:] Right okay. [recording ends]

[Mr Poole:] The press release that I I put erm to the internationally known bearings company. [Mr Fremantle:] Right er [Mr Poole:] Which you secretary seemed to think was okay for that one. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes it should be shouldn't it Jane? [Mr Poole:] As opposed as opposed to oblique. [Jane Warner:] Well yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes [Mr Poole:] Right. [Mr Fremantle:] As opposed to oblique. [Mr Poole:] Okay I think what [Mr Fremantle:] Erm [Mr Poole:] I'll do in that case is hold this press release because you may want to change it again a little bit. [Mr Fremantle:] Er yes. [Mr Poole:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Well erm what what does holding it involve? [Mr Poole:] Telling them not to post it tomorrow. [Mr Fremantle:] Not to post it tomorrow. Right okay. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah, I mean that's not going to miss us a particular slot in the in the publication. [Mr Poole:] Oh no no. No not at all. I look if I can do that now, I can save erm [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] I can save her photocopying it. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] Erm [Mr Fremantle:] Yes that would be a good idea wouldn't it. [Mr Poole:] What would I do without these things I don't know. [LAUGHTER] I've I've got an appointment in London at five o'clock so I've got to leave here at about quarter to three. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] To get the the three o'clock train. [Mr Fremantle:] No problem. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. If you'd like to just have a look through that, is that paragraph where I put a line [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Hello? Chris? Chris? Er Rosie the the press release number six that I've given to Sandra, will you tell her to hold it please and not to send it out tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Sorry? No no to do nothing with it. Yeah, I'll sort it out tomorrow morning. Alright, bye. Good. Just there is a little bit that I want to add that erm that teachers get free admission. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Ah right. Good. [Mr Poole:] But does that paragraph [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah I I think in principle that that [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] that's er that's fine erm [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er the internationally known bearings company. Er er what should we what have we been u have we been using any particular sort of of form of words Jane? [Jane Warner:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] For that? Because actually isn't internationally known. It's the that's internationally known and the 's internationally known [Mr Poole:] Yes yes. [Mr Fremantle:] but the fusion of the two is not. [Mr Poole:] I think I I I don't think we're in treason of the truth. [Mr Fremantle:] I No I think it's probably that's probably about as you're going to get anyway. [Mr Poole:] Yes yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Er e erm. I think that'll be okay. [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] I think that'll be okay. [Mr Poole:] And then what we will do, later on we shall do another press release which will talk more about the [Mr Fremantle:] Exactly exactly what's erm gonna happen. Right. [Mr Poole:] Erm to persuade some of the nine hundred schools to reply to us. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Yes Good. [Mr Poole:] We've got twenty five schools taking part at the moment. [Mr Fremantle:] They're already committed to too [Mr Poole:] They're already committed which is quite good in January. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] Cos we'd got I think, about twelve last year at this time. Erm Now what we want to talk about if I can Well you tell me what you want to know I think that's the best. [Mr Fremantle:] I I think what what I wanted to put some more meat on the basic idea so that [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] our factory colleagues, and Jane as far as the erm preparation of of er any equipment and so on is concerned [Mr Poole:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] can actually start thinking about what what we're actually going to do. [Mr Poole:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] So er because there will be certain input from the factories. Erm David's Newark erm Road based [Mr Poole:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] er and and erm e erm Eric's erm Road based [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] so we've got the two Newark factories represented. [Mr Poole:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Er and Jane looks after all the publicity er er preparations and that sort of thing so [Mr Poole:] Good good. [Mr Fremantle:] so that really it's to try and er get us thinking about what we could do [Mr Poole:] Yes yes. [Mr Fremantle:] because there may be initiatives that can come from the factories er which would bring the thing alive also for local [Mr Poole:] Yes yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] people in some way. So erm Philip could you could you just begin by putting a bit more meat on o on what the competition how the competition is envisaged to work. [Mr Ingall:] Yes yes I will. Let me tell you about the schools involved in the show anyway. Er the Nottinghamshire branch of the of the National Farmer's Union are the instigators of the children of the show. And they together with who are animal feed stuff and and and corn and fertilizer people, erm organized the marquis and generally do the groundwork that gets the kids there. Erm and they sponsor that, sponsor the marquis and so does the N F U. Erm now within the marquis there are lots of exhibits that are of educational value. I mean it may well be there's a there's a lamb, there may be a calf. Erm there'll be someone talking about cereal production, there'll be someone talking about milk production, this sort of thing. Now within that marquis you can have a table. Erm now if you wanted to go larger I say a table because of the size of the marquis and what the [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] This is what National Grid did last year. If you wanted to have something erm larger than that then I'm e I am empowered to say you can have a trade stand at half price. [Mr Fremantle:] Right yeah yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Now what I'm really looking at there is that our basic trade stand space i is about a hundred pound. Erm there's no reason why you shouldn't have double that size the the the basic one is three metres square. Now I didn't know whether you've got an exhibition unit or something? [Mr Fremantle:] Er well we have we have all sorts of exhibition [Mr Ingall:] Yeah you'd better have a mobile unit [Mr Fremantle:] er things that we [Mr Ingall:] that erm [Mr Fremantle:] Well Right, David, you've got a a an input there because we've done a project with the erm er p with a technical college here. Er for a mobile a mobile unit. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm exhibition caravan. [Mr Fremantle:] Exhibition [Mr Ingall:] Caravan. [Mr Fremantle:] er caravan. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Trailer [Mr Ingall:] Yes. Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] it is actually isn't it? [Mr Rowan:] Trailer yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Trailer yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and it would be appropriate I guess to to use that. But that probably wouldn't be inside the tent would it? [Mr Ingall:] Well it wouldn't matter because you see, the treasure hunt takes the kids all around the show ground. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] Now the idea and collect a piece of treasure, a ball bearing. From. Or or out of the reject box. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Yes yeah yeah Yes. I think we could probably find plenty of them. surplus stocks. [Mr Ingall:] talking of rejects I was I was conned into going down to Stoke yesterday to look at the Portmeirion seconds shop. Ah but this is great, and everything is nice and cheap there, I came away paying two hundred and forty pounds what we bought. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Ingall:] Now that you see so it might be an idea If you have your table within the marquis, that does whatever you want it to do, that can talk to kids if they want and so forth, you see they they're sort of juniors upwards. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Erm and then you could have your trade stand where they've got to come and collect something and answer a question. [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. [Mr Ingall:] Now the quiz will be erm what was our I mean if there's a history of the firm what did what did used to be called or something. Something that you've got on display where they could just read it, pick the answer out. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] And they put their answer on their form. they pick their bit of treasure up, whatever it is? I mean National Grid gave them a bit of cable. They chopped a lot of cable into one inch pieces you see and just gave a bit of this out. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] It's a nonsensical bit of treasure but they've gotta [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] come back with a bit of treasure and the answer. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] Then then then the winner of course is the one that takes the money. Erm now that sounds to me to be the best way of doing. Wh what we do you see, they have to wander around the showground doing this, so we get our traffic through the showground and they see other things while they're going around. As opposed just going [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. Mhm. Mhm. [Mr Ingall:] into a marquis and having it all laid on for [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. [Mr Ingall:] them in there. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm now if if we have if we have our er erm caravan and we have the table in the in the tent, they can [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] obviously be at opposite opposite ends or different different places so there's plenty of space between them. [Mr Ingall:] Absolutely. Oh yes yeah. We wouldn't put the caravan next to the tent. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Er are those Er w would would the would the er treasure hunt just involve visiting that, or or [Mr Ingall:] Ooh no about twenty about twenty others. [Mr Fremantle:] So so [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] what do we do? Pick particular stands or pick [Mr Ingall:] Erm we select the stands where the treasure's going to be because some [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] of the treasure might be our treasure or N F U treasure and so right [Mr Fremantle:] I see. Yes. [Mr Ingall:] we'll put this treasure on this stand. [Mr Fremantle:] [yawn] Yeah right, I see. [Mr Ingall:] Erm so unless anyone is sponsoring, they wouldn't necessarily have the treasure on their stand. We'd select other stand holders. And what we'd do, we'd go to say, the farm machinery people and say [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Right will will you take part in the treasure hunt. Will you give a nut and bolt or something. Or or whatever something that they've [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Yeah yeah. [Mr Ingall:] got low on their stock. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm costings if you like that they [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] can give away. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm the blacksmith and we give them a horseshoe nail. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] this sort of thing. But they [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] come back with it and we we give them a carrier bag erm to carry all the stuff in. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] And them they come back. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm [Mr Ingall:] And if you've got any goodies you want to dish out to them it helps. [Mr Fremantle:] Well well we'll provide the carrier bags. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Won't we, carrier bags. [Mr Ingall:] You have some of those have you? [Mr Fremantle:] We have them we have them yeah. Er and er we could provide as as treasure, [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] we could provide steel balls in profu profusion out of the [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] as out of assembly rejects. [Mr Ingall:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Er and I should think we could supply rollers on the same basis couldn't we? Er... and [Mr Ingall:] It it would need to be either one or the other I think. [Mr Fremantle:] Well I mean these could be these could be collected from somebody else somewhere else. [Mr Ingall:] Yes yes of course. Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Er so I mean that c because er I mean they the steel balls and steel rollers go into the bin I mean they can't be used for anything. [Mr Ingall:] Well that's right. Well yes, absolutely. Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] So er and and they're quite I mean if nobody's ever seen a er erm [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] a good quality steel ball before, they're quite nice things to have and they [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] feel soft. [Mr Ingall:] Right. Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm we could certainly do that. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm [Mr Ingall:] Of a size that [Mr Fremantle:] Well of a reasonable a re Yes I mean they won't be so small you can hardly see them [Mr Ingall:] Yes quite quite. [Mr Fremantle:] And they won't be s so large as you can't carry them. Erm I just wonder also whether er we could possibly out of our erm surplus or dead stock, provide some er some small complete bearings.... How many how many are we looking for? How many are we expecting to take part? [Mr Ingall:] We don't know, last year it was about four hundred, four or five hundred. [Mr Fremantle:] So we'd need beginning to get a bit more bu But but in terms of showing people what. Y yes. Yes that's true. [Mr Poole:] I think steel balls are But you see you can do a display on your table can't you [Mr Fremantle:] But i but i but in terms of showing people what bearings actually are, [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] there's nothing like a complete bearing. [Mr Poole:] No that's right. No. [Mr Fremantle:] Because what the tendency is that people feel that that bearings when when you say a bearing, you mean a steel ball. And of course Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Yes yes as opposed to the ball race [Mr Fremantle:] Er I mean, what we want to be getting them to think about is the complete [Mr Ingall:] Yes yes. [Mr Fremantle:] unit. So I think we might make an effort [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] to try to provide erm [Mr Ingall:] We we it's it's always difficult in January to say how many people are going to be there to take part, but we last year it was about about five hundred I think. Erm so we ou and carrier bags, we may have enough to carry us through the show, I don't know. But certainly I mean, if you have carrier bags, you can give them [Mr Fremantle:] I I would like to do that. [Mr Ingall:] You can give them away anyway [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] there's no problem. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. Er er erm and if we can if if they can all use is it [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] then that's further [Mr Ingall:] I mean if there's a leaflet you can put in them as well, fair enough. Make that be your goody bag of whatever. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm there's no problem there. Cos I was going to be ordering carrier bags anyway. Well I can cross that out you see. [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm I can't remember who said they'd sponsor those, but we'll get them onto something else. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Well they can... Erm so e e and and we ought to provision probably for a thousand. [Mr Ingall:] I would have thought so. If it's likely to be any more, I'll come back to you. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Er but I would have though that should easily do it. [Mr Fremantle:] Er... right so so we're talking er about basically being involved specifically at two locations. [Mr Ingall:] Yes. If you wish that. [Mr Fremantle:] What I was gonna come onto there is erm can we e e that would involve manning wouldn't it? On the Friday and the Saturday. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Er would the factories between them be able to help with that for a spell Er one of the things that I'm slightly concerned about is if you've only got old buffers on the stand erm rather than younger people [Mr Ingall:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] that might er erm lose an opportunity. Would there be I mean is there is there a possibility of getting some some of our younger people [Mr Poole:] Oh yes. [Mr Fremantle:] involved... on the factory side. [Jane Warner:] You know this caravan, is it covered with or? [Mr Rowan:] It's got logos all round it. [Mr Fremantle:] That's something that I think we need to have a look at. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Perhaps if we may. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and and update... er update it. [Mr Rowan:] The only perm the only permanent er writing on it is er School and College. that actually built it. [Mr Fremantle:] That's fine. Could erm could you perhaps tie up between you, David and Jane, erm so that Jane you could go and have a look at it and see what's actually needed to get that up to date. [Mr Rowan:] By environmental friendly screen. [Jane Warner:] Whereabouts is this? [Mr Rowan:] It's actually in the in the grounds of the of the college. You can drive past it, you can actually see from the roadway. [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. [Mr Poole:] Are the college involved at all? [Mr Rowan:] I I've spoken to the college. Erm [Mr Poole:] Are they involved i in their own right? [Mr Rowan:] Er they aren't but they I think they're in it on the canvas. [Mr Poole:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] They'll they'll be part of erm either Nottinghamshire County Council or District Council. Both of whom. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] But it's likely that it'll be the last showing at Notts County Council of course. [Mr Fremantle:] Indeed there won't be a County Council will there. [Mr Ingall:] Well we're all hoping there won't [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] Er right so erm basically, if we have if we have that stand which erm perhaps could be factory manned [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] in principle. And er Jane if perhaps we could organize the manning of the table. And er I think perhaps if we could put a c are are we allowed to put round the table some [Mr Ingall:] Oh yes. [Mr Fremantle:] erm some pictures. [Mr Ingall:] You can you can back the table with a [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] with a screen. [Mr Fremantle:] That's that's the sort of thing cos we've we've got erm erm perhaps we could put up some of the I mean the ones that you've got out in behind your desk at the moment. [Jane Warner:] That somebody's just pinched. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh have they? [Jane Warner:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Well maybe we Yeah but er maybe we could we could book erm half a dozen panels [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] or something of that with with some photographs on, [Mr Ingall:] No reason no reason why that shouldn't be I mean we've we've got what we use as a as a clip display thing that's about six foot high and three panels you know but erm [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] That goes nicely behind a six foot trestle or whatever it is. Oh yes you can dress that little area up as much as you like. But my worry was that there wasn't going to be enough space there for you to perhaps say all you wanted to say. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm I think maybe we need to think about it, we need to give a bit more thought to that [Mr Ingall:] Mm. Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm as to how much we er want [Mr Ingall:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] need to do. [Mr Ingall:] You see if you're if you do have a display caravan you can probably do some some grass displays of of large bearings or something in the front of it to [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] You know for people to have a loot at. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] That's not a bad idea from the point of view of the general public really, because that does give you a show to the sixty thousand odd people who are wandering around there. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm who wouldn't necessarily go to the schools marquis of course. [Mr Fremantle:] That's right. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] That's right, yes. [Mr Ingall:] Just as a just as a sales pitch for that. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Well you're you're gonna ask us to pay fifty quid for the to to to park the caravan. [Mr Ingall:] I was gonna ask you to pay a hundred but I'll talk about that. You tell me how big a ground you want and I'll tell you what you're gonna [LAUGHTER] pay for it []. [Jane Warner:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Right okay. [Mr Poole:] Good try good try Tom. [Mr Fremantle:] Okay. Sorry I I thought I thought you quoted a price of a hundred and said that [Mr Ingall:] No I said space is a hundred pound and we'll give you twice that size for that. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh I see. I just I just assumed you'd give us that size for fifty quid. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Ingall:] Well I can talk about this, I mean it depends erm. [Jane Warner:] You know this marquis, will it just be [Mr Ingall:] Yeah? [Jane Warner:] the schoolchildren at that that are actually going into it. [Mr Ingall:] Adults can go into it but we have found generally speaking that particularly on Friday, erm it's full of kids. I mean it's a place that adults would tend to avoid, the minute the put their head inside it. Saturday, there tends to be kids going in with their parents. Erm you see we do we do a family ticket which is used for Saturday, the Friday which admits two adults and four kids on on Saturday for twelve pounds fifty. Or. Erm and so kids that don't come on the Friday, tend to come with their parents on Saturday. And we have made a point of saying in this press release that children can individually enter this as well. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] But if they win it, the prize goes to their school and not to them. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Now of course there is the there is the spin off as well, that you can get some mileage out of the winning school or the first three, by inviting them here or visiting them and so forth, [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Cos they're got to divert the money to a project. They they can't just put it into the school fund. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] They've got to buy some equipment. The school that won it last year bought a skeleton. Erm a fully mobile workable skeleton, and th it's a deprived area of Nottingham and they've apparently been able to teach them more with this skeleton over this past six months than than any other kids in the school. I think they know where to hit people where it hurts most of them. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Well yeah, I me I think that's perhaps something for er David and Eric to [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er to consider, as to whether whether it would be appropriate to invite the winning schools for er to to bring a party in or involve them in the erm Gala Day or e I mean i erm or the open day or something. [Mr Ingall:] I think whatever whatever's our value when they come, you're bound to get a picture in the paper of it happening. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm you know, and also we want a picture of The presentation isn't actually on the day, the presentation will be at the school. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] So again come along and present it you see, as well. [Mr Fremantle:] So we'll go along to school Yeah yeah yeah. Erm now er just just Philip just correct me er on the on the detail of this thing, er individuals pitch up at the tent, collect the collect the instructions [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] which you've prepared. [Mr Ingall:] That's right. [Mr Fremantle:] Er which gives them the clues as to where they've got to go. [Mr Ingall:] That's right it gives the it tells them where they've got to go. And it will be on and stand. Erm It'll tell them where the clues are. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] So they haven't got to find the site of the clues, [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] They've merely got to sort the clues out when they get there. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] Right and they'll be told what the clue is. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] And so they've got to they they'll be asked the question rather, and they know the answer's going to on the stand that they go to. [Mr Fremantle:] Right so so they get the answer. And when they get the answer they pick up the the tro treasure the treasure. [Mr Ingall:] They pick up the treasure. Yeah. And then they're off to the next one. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. And now how do we decide the winner? [Mr Ingall:] The winner is decided erm on the total correct entries and if I'm right there is a slogan to fill in. But that's all done by N F U,, you need have no part of that unless you want to have. [Mr Fremantle:] Right yo I w no I was just gonna say th th there's there would need to be a tiebreaker of some sort presumably. [Mr Ingall:] There needs to be a tiebreaker. Yeah it isn't the first correct one out, they've all got shout if you like. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] Erm but it's but what happens, they're all done and N F U rather treasure their erm their their job as the scrutineers of these. And I haven't erm I thought it's prudent to leave that alone. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Right I I was just wondering if they would i if they would like us to suggest a tie breaker. [Mr Ingall:] Why not? Why not? What I would do [Mr Fremantle:] Or something of that sort which might be associated with like, when was [Mr Ingall:] Yeah I'll get the next erm I'll get last year's questions. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] And just see what they are like, and see what they did as a tiebreaker. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Ingall:] And then perhaps you can sort one out. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] There's no problem [Mr Fremantle:] I I mean like like the the er competitions cereal competitions, erm invent a slogan for, something like that. [Mr Ingall:] That's right that's right and who knows, you might get a good one. [Mr Fremantle:] Might get a good one. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Er so erm... Yes I think something like that would would be erm [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er [Mr Ingall:] Yes well I could arrange that. [Mr Fremantle:] ... So the treasure hunt course as it were [Mr Ingall:] Yeah? [Mr Fremantle:] is arranged by [Mr Ingall:] Is def is defined by [Mr Fremantle:] by the show.... [Mr Ingall:] And what we really do, when we've got the show ground plan done you see, we look at which stands are where and say, Right, we'll have that one, that one, that one, this one, and so forth and go [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah and then you just go and talk to them [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] and er run off a s er a sheet of questions [Mr Ingall:] And if and if they haven't got any treasure, then we provide them with it, [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] whatever it is. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm I think last year, Well what I've got to do, I've got last year... National Grid provided them with pens. I think we might have that one sorted out. [Mr Fremantle:] You've got somebody to give them pens. [Mr Ingall:] We may have. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] That's that's something I've got to sort out because [Mr Fremantle:] Er that that again if you haven't, we could probably fix. [Mr Ingall:] Could you? [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Well do you want to do that whether I whether I [Mr Fremantle:] Do we want to do that Jane? [Jane Warner:] How many er [Mr Fremantle:] Well maximum a thousand. Could probably only five hundred. How how are we off for for pens? [Jane Warner:] We'd have to order [Mr Ingall:] Cheap pens. [Jane Warner:] order some more. [Mr Fremantle:] We'd have to order some more would we? [Jane Warner:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Are yours fairly elaborate ones that you have? [Jane Warner:] No we do have cheap ones as well. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. Yeah. That sort of thing. Yeah. [Jane Warner:] Well I personally my stock. [Mr Fremantle:] I think p maybe Philip it would be best if y er I mean if you've got somebody up your sleeve who [Mr Ingall:] I haven't at the moment because last year it was it was National Grid who haven't [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] who are closing their Newark operation you see, which has made it rather tricky to approach them. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Shall I see what I can do? [Mr Fremantle:] See what see what you can do and perhaps er Jane... you could just look into the possibility of erm because if I mean if we were going to do a run of pens we wouldn't just have a thousand would we? [Jane Warner:] No. Not not the cheap ones. [Mr Fremantle:] No. Erm so perhaps we could have a a look and see what whether there is a plan afoot to er do those so that we could have some available for [Jane Warner:] Yes er I mean that sort tell me what they want. [Mr Ingall:] It's fifteen by eight. Fifteen foot by eight foot. [Jane Warner:] . [Mr Fremantle:] Er... right. Er are you telling me that that is there are any existing pens, they would be in the sales company? And I might have a thousand stashed away that I didn't know about? [Jane Warner:] Could have yeah. Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Er well perhaps I'd better have a look. [Jane Warner:] You could have a look but like I say, ordering freebies now it's up to the sales people to tell me what they want and I order them on their behalf. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm right but but presumably there's some coordination between all the various sales companies. For for things like pens isn't there? [Jane Warner:] Well yeah, if if the U K came to me and said, I want ten thousand pens, tell me what which ones they wanted, I would then contact the sales companies, Are you interested to to [Mr Fremantle:] Oh I see. Right okay. [Jane Warner:] But I wouldn't just go off my own bat now and order stuff. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Jane Warner:] And dish them out to the sales companies. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Okay. Er we'll have a lo we'll have a look at that [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er Philip anyway. [Mr Rowan:] I mean they are they're funded by themselves. [Mr Fremantle:] Er I'm conscious of that. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] I'm conscious of that. Er er and no doubt no doubt David and Eric are are erm noticing how much what we've funding [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] I mean basically, the s the the funding will come from the sales company [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm er and erm wh what we're offering you is an opportunity to... erm give your factories some promotion in the local area. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] As well as the as well as the erm er the sales activity. Because from a sales point of view we won't actually [speaker006:] cost you [Mr Fremantle:] We won't actually sale [Mr Rowan:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] We we we we won't s sell anything. What we will do perhaps is just promote the name,. [Jane Warner:] sign-writers [Mr Fremantle:] Er that's the object of the exercise [Mr Rowan:] Yeah [Mr Fremantle:] as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't expect to take an order or even have a serious enquiry resulting from it. [Mr Rowan:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm but I do feel that there is likely to be some positive spin off for the factories. [Mr Rowan:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and er I I don't know exactly what's in your caravan but erm er whether you would want to put in something about employment opportunities or the training scheme, er apprenticeship schemes and that sort of thing. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] I would think there's a a grand opportunity to do all that. [Mr Rowan:] Oh yeah that's the main area really is is erm recruiting for apprentices mainly to the young people. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes yes. That's why it would be good idea if you could man the [Mr Poole:] When is it when is it? [Mr Fremantle:] It's the sixth fifth and sixth is it, or sixth and seventh. [Mr Ingall:] six and seventh of May it is [Mr Fremantle:] Six and seventh of May, Yeah six and seventh of May, that's right. [Mr Poole:] Ideally have to be recruiting before then really. [Mr Fremantle:] Well okay. Er but but there maybe there maybe some others [Mr Poole:] well it gives a picture doesn't it of of erm I mean we do one of the Erm and that type of stand I mean it that in a very restricted area haven't you [Mr Rowan:] Yes yeah. [Mr Poole:] your backdrop and everything. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] The caravan is ideally designed as er an exhibition with steps in er either right or left in to see whatever's on show and then out on the opposite side. [Mr Poole:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Quite wide steps and it's designed as as a exhibition. So whatever we put inside there, you can walk through it. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Up a few steps, across and out the other side. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] It has its own built in generator for the lighting. [Mr Poole:] Brilliant. [Mr Fremantle:] You can boil a kettle in there. [Mr Ingall:] It's own bar. [Mr Fremantle:] Not quite, it is padded. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] relatively warm. Yeah, right okay. Erm so we we need to work out how much space we need to stand it in so that I can get back to Philip and and and agree that. Oh you've got the dimensions, oh right, yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Well I've got the dimensions here so I can I'm just thinking you see, I may persuade the society to do a deal of free stands facing or something like this. [Mr Fremantle:] Good. [Mr Ingall:] But see see where we go on that. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Erm [Mr Ingall:] I mean I know the deal I'd do now but er only being their consultant I can't really clinch it. [Mr Fremantle:] You can't commit [Mr Ingall:] Well I can tell Oh I can tell them wh In fact I would be prepared to do that. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] Are you happy with that? [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] You provide the pens, we'll give you a free stand space. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Right, done. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER]... [Mr Fremantle:] So we're provid we're we're going to have a table which we will man which will have some sort of display around it. Some some pictures and things. [Mr Ingall:] that's right. Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Er and there will be somebody there. On that we will provide erm er carrier bags, er some pens... and er we'll probably er dish out some leaflets there as well. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. It may be that the carrier bags and pens would go onto the onto the table where the entry forms are dished out as part [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] of the package there. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah fine. [Mr Ingall:] In fact I suggest it probably should. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Erm... and also you'll get admission tickets of course. [Mr Fremantle:] Right [Mr Ingall:] Erm [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] a reasonable number erm and you and I decide what's reasonable on that. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Right. Erm so that's that's that. We will we will undertake to provide some steel balls, some steel rollers [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] and some er bearings. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] For a as giveaways. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes as as as the treasure. [Mr Ingall:] Yes quite. [Mr Fremantle:] Er we will mobilize the er the caravan erm which needs updating and modifying to display whatever we want [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] And we will man that. At a at a space which you will provide us Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Poole:] distance away from the marquis as well. Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and [Mr Ingall:] Yes bear in mind that that of course, that you're going to get quite a lot of adult audience going through it as well as kids of course. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. Yes. [Mr Ingall:] Erm [Mr Fremantle:] I think er er we need some product range leaflets and things like that in and and the er the group giveaway. D I suppose it doesn't have a er something we could the corporate video on does it? [Mr Rowan:] Oh yes [Mr Fremantle:] Does it? [Mr Rowan:] Tables and chairs and [Mr Fremantle:] Oh well we'll we could we might easily use the corporate video for that. Cos that's rather exciting and and new. Er that but anyway we can we can organize that Er within within that space. The factories will will man well between us we'll work out the manning. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] You'll provide us with sufficient entries so that the people who are man it get in and car parking. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah yeah. And car parking. Yeah yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm you're going to arrange the er the course. [Mr Ingall:] Yes yes indeed. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] And we will set the questions. [Mr Fremantle:] And set the questions. [Mr Ingall:] Erm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes and [Mr Ingall:] And also talk to you about a tiebreaker. [Mr Fremantle:] And tiebreaker, yes. Tiebreaker.... And then er in due course, some time after the event, er we need to be erm [Mr Ingall:] You'll do the presentation of the award. [Mr Fremantle:] present the award. [Mr Ingall:] school at which we'll invite the press. This didn't happen last year and I was cross it didn't but I've organized it so that it will this year. [Mr Fremantle:] Right [Mr Ingall:] Erm [Mr Fremantle:] okay. [Mr Ingall:] I think they daren't take it to Road at Nottingham for some reason. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Right erm er presentation to the schools and then we need to consider if we would want to invite. [Mr Ingall:] Then if you want if you want to invite them back that's right, yes. It i it could depend on where the school is you see because the winner was Nottingham last year. Erm it could be Newark, it could be Lincoln it could be Gainsborough. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Er wherever, wherever they come from. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] Yes it was rather it it was quite unintentional but they The winner last year, one of the teachers at the school was the secretary's sister. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh dear. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Ingall:] And and er this is And the society have nothing to do with it of course you see. But it didn't stop the cries. [Mr Fremantle:] Right, okay I think I I've covered everything that was [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er that that that I think will enable us to do our bit. Erm erm [Mr Ingall:] If there's anything else, do ring me and ask. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Ingall:] And erm [Mr Fremantle:] Okay. [Mr Ingall:] But I will confirm all this to you. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Ingall:] the decision's made on the and the stands space so there's no stand space. [Mr Fremantle:] Good. [Mr Ingall:] Erm and what we will do is make sure you've got enough room for fifteen foot by eight foot with with whatever space in front of it as as a as a lawn if you like. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Ingall:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Ingall:] No problem with that at all. [Mr Fremantle:] Great. [Mr Ingall:] Great okay. [Mr Fremantle:] Lovely, thank you very much indeed. [Mr Ingall:] I will get me down to my [Mr Fremantle:] [break in recording] [Mr Rowan:] Well you see he said that the problem with the college site is very few people at the college know how it runs. [Mr Fremantle:] Well that's all right I'll I can provide somebody to run it and [Mr Rowan:] But as far as freebies are concerned, as you know our cage driller machine, that's now into it's third year of development, I have an assurance from the college that we could be we could use it on the day. Now talking of freebies, they could actually watch a cage being drilled for them as part of it. [Mr Fremantle:] That's that's [Mr Rowan:] resin cage, not a brass cage. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Very cheap, but actually watch it being made and then that becomes the freebie. [Mr Fremantle:] Wonderful [Mr Rowan:] So that would give the publicity to the companies as certainly as the bearing as well, this I've just had this made. [Mr Poole:] which which one the the one that went to the erm exhibition, the one that went to the competition. Cos we're doing another one aren't they? [Mr Rowan:] They're doing another one now the that was a prototype. [Mr Fremantle:] Would would I mean could that be operated in conjunction with the trailer. [Mr Rowan:] Well yeah well [Mr Poole:] Wherever [Mr Fremantle:] As as part of the trailer. In the trailer or by the trailer. compressed air and electricity don't you. [Mr Poole:] It's no problem, Malcolm's has got compressed air and and and electricity laid on. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] the college compressor for that. That's no problem. I'm just thinking now if there are youngsters there, they see something working, [Mr Fremantle:] Absolutely [Mr Poole:] And that's an it's an ideal display see the mechanics working and they take out the cage and off you go. [Mr Fremantle:] I think I think that would be splendid David if you could if you could erm organize that er on the on the trailer or or by the trailer, on the trailer stand as it were. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and provide the freebie I mean the the the cages, the giveaway that would be tremendous. [Mr Rowan:] Cos they actually see it being made. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] This was made for me. [Mr Poole:] And it was made by and youngster because that's the project [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] made by the you know, not made by the the full industry but i the off spin of the industry. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] And it's already I mean we've we've kept it in prime condition, painted with company colours. It does say on the front of it but [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] And and I I would think I'm just thinking of freebies that just giving them something, and yet if they've actually watched something being made and then [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] made then erm [Mr Poole:] You've just to got be ca You've just got to be careful that you get it i i you've got it pristine working and it's gonna work for two days. You don't want [Mr Rowan:] Well now this is why [Mr Poole:] That's an important thing. [Mr Rowan:] that are now on the project, make sure that it is tip top condition for the event. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Rowan:] Er Eric and I know fully [LAUGHTER] we've been through that, fingers crossed behind our backs. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Situations. But we had it at the N E C for a week and it must have produced hundreds of cages on a routine daily basis. They were there for five days and they were producing them. I'm just thinking now that er we changed lots of things, the heads and things of that nature so it was If it's just producing the same cage [Mr Fremantle:] Yes, no set-ups or anything. [Mr Rowan:] they're just watch it come in, drill the cage, the cage turns and comes in. The mechanics of it would capture the young imagination. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Especially if it's demonstrated by the younger people as well. [Mr Fremantle:] I think that would be that would be terrific. [Mr Rowan:] As opposed to giving them possibly a ball bearing. [Mr Poole:] Well [Mr Fremantle:] Well I mean we well Well [Mr Rowan:] Well give them a ball bearing and a cage. That's the treasure isn't it, that's the treasure. [Mr Fremantle:] Why I'm yes that that might be a bit more complicated because that means we've got to get a thousand a thousand reject up to a thousand reject ball bearings which are all the same. [Mr Rowan:] But we can get the balls and then drill the cases to them. [Mr Fremantle:] No no are you I think this treasure is something they're gonna get, they're gonna they're gonna g come to the stand, they're gonna a ask a ask a question and and and be given once they've answered the question they're given a ball, any sort of ball from sort of [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] that big to that big which we [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] we can pull out of the scrap. No problem there is there? [Mr Poole:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] No as far as as far as the ball and the roller is concerned,thos those are something we could give away from somebody else's stand. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and and we could actually give if we if we can find some small reject ball bearings or roller bearings, then we can or reject I mean erm dead stock. [Mr Poole:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Then and we're always we're always finding dead stock it seems to me, er then we could give those away on yet another stand, give the cage away on the e on our own so we will actually have provided three, four different treasures, all of which are associated with bearings. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] Three components and one complete so [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] the thing might even begin to connect in the individuals mind er as to what's involved with the bearing. [Mr Rowan:] Quite true. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and and I mean the actual bearing when you you pick up a a a a little miniature bearing and and you can spin it on your finger and [Mr Rowan:] Yeah [Mr Fremantle:] so it makes a lovely little toy. Apart from anything else. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] If we could get some of them. Erm [Jane Warner:] just round this table product. [Mr Fremantle:] Er I should think we might just have some products on the table and some leaflets. [Mr Poole:] Are you looking, who are you looking to man it, apprentices or or or young salespeople. [Mr Fremantle:] I think I would try and get young salespeople to [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er to do that. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm [Mr Poole:] We can get the apprentices operating the machine can't we. If we can get that machine though. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm.... [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and we have a er we could we could take erm a few people out of the er out of the sales office. Erm and maybe out of marketing as well. Lots of young people in marketing aren't there Jane?... [Jane Warner:] Well I don't know I don't know about that. Probably two, me and Karen. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh yes. Right. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Erm [Mr Poole:] We've got we've got Leslie Leslie at erm precision. [Jane Warner:] Yeah but the thing is [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Jane Warner:] Somebody like me, if I was stood at that table, I mean okay if you've got kids coming in, but if you get adults coming in, I wouldn't be able to answer questions, I don't know enough about the product. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm. No I I I don't I don't think [Jane Warner:] You've got to have [Mr Fremantle:] I don't think we need worry about that too much. [Jane Warner:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] Er I mean if I if I try and cover it with one of our professional salesmen, [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] erm I think that's going to be overkill. [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] We're not going to get a lot of serious bearing enquiries. [Jane Warner:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and I think that part of the skill on the on on such a stand is erm to to show enough interest, to take the details down and say, The only thing that's important [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] it'll be a matter of taking the details down and then if it's that important we'll have somebody call Monday morning. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm to er [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] er to to to get back at it. Or alternatively, I mean if it's really that important, erm and and it's on the Friday, we we could actually send for somebody from here to come out. [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] So I don't think [Jane Warner:] Yeah I don't I don't think you will there. [Mr Fremantle:] I don't think we will. [Jane Warner:] No. [Mr Fremantle:] I don't think we will. Erm it'll it'll be enquiries which are of very general interest, Mm erm which I should think you're just as much of an expert as anybody else at answering. [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Come to that. Er [Mr Poole:] Most of the questions are going to be related to to what it is, are there any jobs available, or what type of thing. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] General sort of [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] interest things. How [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] how can it help the er the Newark populace. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Jane Warner:] I'll do Friday and Gary can do the [LAUGHTER] Saturday []. [Mr Fremantle:] Right okay. Done. Done done done. Well you don't ne you'll need some other other people erm [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] other people to help out [Jane Warner:] No I was only joking. [Mr Fremantle:] but er Oh. You you're not joking. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] I I've written I've writ I've wri it's minuted, it's minuted er er it recorded as well. [Jane Warner:] So are we on tape here. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah yeah. Er so so it's Jane on Friday er er and Karen on Saturday. [Jane Warner:] No Gary I said. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh Gary. [Jane Warner:] [LAUGHTER] That's why I said I was only joking. [Mr Fremantle:] Right Gary on Saturday. Right, okay. Erm [Jane Warner:] No we'll sort that out. [Mr Fremantle:] But we need to no we need to sort that out. Er er... I don't see that it's a big problem.... And er we ought to make a very definite point of putting our heads together perhaps, what do you think, about early March or something like that. Er m no mid- March. Sometime mid-March in order to just make sure that we're all you know that that there isn't some great hang-up somewhere.... And that then still gives us four or five weeks to put anything right. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Er... how about somewhere around the twenty third of March? Right, twenty third of March, would that be a [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] a good day? [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] For the moment at least. Er and shall we say, what's a good time for you? What's the best time for you? [Mr Poole:] P P M's better for me. [Mr Fremantle:] P M. [Mr Rowan:] Right. [Mr Fremantle:] One thirty? [Mr Poole:] One thirty, fine. [Mr Fremantle:] One thirty,... Newark Show... meeting.... David,... Eric,... Jane, Me and anyone else. If you want to bring anybody else along. [Mr Poole:] Yeah, [Mr Fremantle:] Erm who's involved, that's fine.... How's that grab you? [Mr Poole:] Fine. [Mr Fremantle:] Good. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. That sounds exciting. [Mr Fremantle:] Well it's a bit different isn't it. [Mr Poole:] Yeah yeah. A bit different.... [Mr Fremantle:] I'm sorry to hear about your er apprentice bay. [Mr Rowan:] Well yes it's er it is rather a a sad story really. I think after all these these years of having a an apprentice bay running and then er see it more or less wind down. [Mr Fremantle:] But at least it's w it's wound down without the apprentices winding down. [Mr Rowan:] Oh yes, we're er as you know, we gave four and a half thousand to the local college this year or last year [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] to in increase apprentices into... er the engineering or bringing into young people into engineering. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Not necessarily for, but from the town [Mr Fremantle:] Generally. [Mr Rowan:] The idea being is that they would now spend the first year at college, possibly we then would look at them better and [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] pick them off. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Rowan:] And we intend to do exactly the same this year. So so we've actually Chamber of commerce to certain people at college and we're hoping [Mr Fremantle:] Good. [Mr Rowan:] it will embarrass one or two of the smaller firms to also put money into the kitty to keep our college orienta er orientated towards engineering. [Mr Fremantle:] Excellent excellent [Mr Rowan:] Because er we can do the arts and crafts, there's no problem, but engineering there's in a sorry state. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] that the engineering is now safe. [Mr Rowan:] Yes. [Mr Poole:] Whereas up until a few months they were thinking of closing the engineering department [Mr Fremantle:] Were they really? college. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] So we've er we've come to the front and we've led from the front. We can honestly say [Mr Fremantle:] Well this is what is faced with doing. It's what we're doing on a pricing on on a pricing thing as well. We've we're we're taking the lead. Telling everybody else what the what the rules are and you know, what the pace is. Erm and and er of course, did make a very clear statement that it would be the leader. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Well erm we certainly are in we certainly are in Newark. [Mr Rowan:] And I I think the the ongoing concern then is we seem to have got on an even keel with apprentices. Erm literally training throughout throughout the year.... Staff of twenty one. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] All of them have come out of the time over the nineteen ninety three have all been employed by the company. [Mr Fremantle:] Ah that's terrific. [Mr Rowan:] Erm so yes I think we're we can we can say we've been leading from the front. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah good. [Mr Rowan:] And if we've now embarrassed one or two smaller firms into actually putting money into our college. [Mr Fremantle:] Wonderful [Mr Rowan:] So er [Mr Fremantle:] wonderful [Mr Rowan:] likewise we have some projects to show that we have worked very closely as an engineering firm, with the local college. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And the local people. As tomorrow we give Cancer Fund, three and a half thousand pounds, cheque tomorrow. [Mr Fremantle:] Do you really? [Mr Rowan:] From the Gala Day receipts. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh that's wonderful. [Mr Rowan:] So we yes we are [LAUGHTER] It's erm beginning to very good. Yes very good in in that respect. [Mr Fremantle:] Look look quite significant. Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] No longer are we referred to as although we still we're referred as [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] But it's getting it's getting the image it's getting [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] the image has certainly improved. [Mr Fremantle:] Well certainly I mean this this whole initiative is something that I s just seemed to me when Philip got in touch in the first place, that that something that we ought to er be involved with. [Mr Rowan:] I think e the idea there of the cage drilling machine and the caravan is to show that our connections, with college, what we can produce with youngsters of today. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] A and because schools outside the area will see what we've done, [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] It may give them the light as well as what [Mr Fremantle:] Right, that's that's terrific Terrific. [Mr Poole:] And we have been involved, I have certainly been into schools a fair bit but but they're erm they are a bit reticent they're certainly slow to come forward to ask for your for you help and and [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Wh while while you're erm doing that while you're th while we're thinking about that, erm there's something else on the schools front and the promotional front which which I am in the process of setting up. Which er I will be officially erm circulating to the factories er later and that is a national erm [break in recording] [Mr Rowan:] Yes yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Of setting a real live project for a design and technology A level student. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Now because of other connections I've done it through Eton. Er not doing the one this year because of the changes that [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] are going on and I just didn't feel that we could erm support one. But with the arrival of Ruddington, er the erm we have a wonderful opportunity there for doing something pretty pretty flashy. And so I've tried to open it up er rather wider and w what I've I've I've been put in touch with a a thing called the independent schools, design and technology association, which covers design and technology studies in all independent schools. Erm and in due course, they are hoping, that body is hoping to extend not just to independent schools but to all schools and be a design and technology education association for all schools. Erm however they're not there yet. [clears throat] Now it concerns me that er I don't want to be associated with the possible charge of elitism if we're only associated with independent schools. Therefore what I want to do is to seek the support of the factories to er spread the word, to circulate the information necessary to all the schools in the area. So that any any school within Nottinghamshire if you like or or Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire or whatever might be appropriate in this area. However many you thought you could manage, it might just be the two [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] secondary schools in Newark come that. Erm but that that opportunity would be there to circulate the information and the the entry rules er around the erm er er state schools within within the sort of factory catchment area. So it's an opportunity for the factories to promote their own activities within whatever they regard as the school catchment area. The way it's going to work is that we will er that the first thing is to invite applications. And the individual student will submit an application with some er example of work already done. And I don't know, I asked th the chap from the I S D T A how many people he thought we might get applying, he said he thought, well if we got fifty we'd be doing very well. Er so say we get fifty people applying, we will then use those application forms to decide how ma er sorry which ones we're going to go with. And I've said that the maximum that I think we could reasonably cope with would be five. And then we would give a complete project specification to the five participants and er we would invite them to visit a factory, to have a conversation with a sales person, to get a bit of a feeling for the style of thee of the be doing area. However many you [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] out of those, and one will win and we'll have a second and third prize and the fourth and fifth will be runners up and erm highly commended or what have you. Er and basically what I want to do is to put the winner, the winning e exhibition into the new reception area, for the new erm office at Ruddington when it opens. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] So that er we can sort of give a great big bit of publicity for the schools, for the individual, for the concept of design and technology at A level. That sort of thing. The other four er erm loser er like as not, will be on display and remain on display in the er in in in the atrium area which is [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] going to be a display area for product and projects. So erm we can give them a bit of a [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] bit of a splash as well. So what what I'm that that that's the sort of basic outline and I see it as an opportunity of putting the name in front of quite a lot of schools [Mr Rowan:] Aha. [Mr Fremantle:] erm and in the design and technology area. Er it is then an opportunity of getting at five five individuals and giving them a a pretty thorough going over and and a lot of encouragement. It gives them the opportunity of working on a real live project er which actually has an end point and is going to be used. It also gives them the incentive of winning some cash. Er it gives us when when we actually set the thing up and make the presentation, it gives us another opportunity for publicity not only in the local papers o of our own area but the local papers of wherever the school was. And it could be anywhere round the country. Erm and I would I would want to try and do some er organize some press coverage at that time for the losers as well as for the winner so that a a and one of the things when we select the participants, er the entrants, er we will not have them all coming from the same school or from the same area, even if the five best entrants all do come from the same school. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] We won't have that, we'll have them from [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] where suits us. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Er er er so so we've got lots of opportunity for er getting the name in front of young people, promoting design and technology and the engineering concept, getting these kids working on something that's real and live, erm and generally promoting the whole thing. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] So er in the course of the next week or two, I will erm be writing officially to er to each of the factories to invite participation. [Mr Rowan:] Right. [Mr Fremantle:] Er and I daresay you'll get involved in that when the time comes. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm Yes. [Mr Fremantle:] For Road and [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] and and Road. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah [Mr Fremantle:] So er there we are. [Mr Rowan:] Oh yes.. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Of course there's I don't know whether you'd well you won't if you haven't been involved but we for the last last year and this year we've had this children from er there's a a sort of Nottingham University [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] is where it's set up from. Er and the young people who've left school er who are having a year out in industry before they go to university. Er and and I've found it very useful in t term [Mr Fremantle:] I've just seen this. [Jane Warner:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Would you like a cup of coffee? [Mr Rowan:] Yes yes. At the minute the erm last year's last year's individual with us he had I think he had he had five A levels of which four were grade A and one was greed B grade B. [Mr Fremantle:] That's not bad. [Mr Rowan:] And and er he's gone off to Warwick University to do doing maths and stuff. And a chap, lad this year's got not quite the same but very very good A level results. [Jane Warner:] Please. [Mr Fremantle:] You must think I'm absolutely barking just to have been sat with this in front of me and not done anything about it. [Jane Warner:] Thank you. [Mr Fremantle:] No Philip must have been er wondering what on earth it was [LAUGHTER] doing there []. [Mr Rowan:] [LAUGHTER]... [Mr Fremantle:] Er so erm [Mr Rowan:] Well it's it's on on the sane vein, just like the machine tool association competition was that the apprentices went in for. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Erm... that was on the same vein and they got they got a ce er a certain amount of national er erm national er publicity. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Milk? [Mr Rowan:] No thank you. [Mr Fremantle:] Jane's have some I think by the look of things. [Jane Warner:] Thank you very much. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm well I don't think one can do too much on that score really can one. Er any publicity is good publicity. Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing the open day again? Or has nothing been said about that yet? Or is it just assumed you would do an open day? [Mr Rowan:] No I don't think we're doing an open day this year. We're still having another gala day. [Mr Fremantle:] Another gala. [Mr Rowan:] And er I think throughout the year, er all of the younger apprentices, either sixteen, eighteen year olds have now been enrolled in Duke of Edinburgh Award [Mr Fremantle:] Have they? [Mr Rowan:] Scheme yeah. And they're all about to do their silver. One of the somewhat older guy, he can orchestrate it so much so that he gets his gold out of it. [Mr Fremantle:] Out in in he he's going straight to gold is he? [Mr Rowan:] No he's done bronze and silver. [Mr Fremantle:] Oh he's done them yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And he if the rest of them get silver, he will get a gold. [Mr Poole:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] It's rather rather good actually. It's a form of team leadership [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Rowan:] And er we so we'll we'll pull that in over the year, over this next year and that's one of the projects that [Mr Fremantle:] Good for him. [Mr Rowan:] I think younger guys, the sixteen, eighteen year old with their silver award [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] er and of course the gold award erm older guys next year's team then can go on for their their gold. Not that we're making any stipulation as part of their apprenticeship but er I think it's a good idea, they have extra [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] erm just beyond the engineering side. What it really means of course is that erm I've committed ourselves to doing the dare I say it, the odd jobs. It sounds v the odd jobs to do with all the the smaller schools and and [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] er kindergartens. As you know, we fixed the roundabout for the people in town, I can't remember the name of the place. I used to call it the back of actually. [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] But nevertheless we [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] the the guys went up there and they fixed it and they were very very We had Christmas cards from them and we've [Mr Fremantle:] Lovely. [Mr Rowan:] And so I what I said was, as part of their community service, we would then earmark the various small erm children's homes, old people's homes and they would go as a team of electricians, fitters, craftsmen and do a community work. [Mr Fremantle:] Marvellous [Mr Rowan:] To towards their silver award. [Mr Fremantle:] Towards the [Mr Rowan:] So we will be flying the flag there. Because of course they will be wearing our [Mr Fremantle:] Very constructive. [Mr Rowan:] And that has a a nice ring to it. That younger element, are doing something for the local community. And we're trying [Mr Fremantle:] That's very good. [Mr Rowan:] we're obviously there's old people's homes here on Drive, there are lots of small erm kindergartens that will require their appliances being serviced. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And things of this nature. One project was to literally find out all of the old age pensioners in town and go along as a group of electricians and check all of their appliances for them. Quite. [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] So they'll have so many houses to work in, they will go along initially and make sure the plugs on er irons and It sounds very simple but it's part of helping the community. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] For their award. Erm we'll be flying the flag on on those I tell you yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Well that's very nice. That's very nice. Good initiative. [Mr Rowan:] Of course they they have to do all that out themselves. They've got to negotiate with the the er people that run these homes and and erm and that kind of thing. [Mr Fremantle:] And set it up? [Mr Rowan:] And set it up. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Oh it's all part of their er their project. But likewise we were looking for another project similar to what er Eric and I were involved in with the cage drilling machine. I think superb projects. We're only hoping at the end of this year, hopefully the company will incest in it. And buy some. [Mr Fremantle:] They have they not Cos I thought they were going to buy some of these drilling machines. [Mr Rowan:] Oh yes but but but what they're doing now is all the erm, they did the presentation to the manufacturing side, [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] er with your assistance. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Er they did they did the sales pitch to and then management came back and said, well we need automatic loading and modifications to it. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] So they've been working on modifications and this year, oh we will we'll put the modifications right and then come back with another sales pitch to [Mr Fremantle:] Right oh I see. Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Poole:] They're doing another one but I think erm was talking to er Andy the other day because erm I've been in manufacturing management meetings at [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Poole:] where they're talking about spending money on a one of these old old cage drillers, tooling it up to drill cages at. And and my ears went you know, what on earth are you spending all this money for on that [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] when when you've got this new technology which you can develop. [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. [Mr Poole:] Er and it looks as though it certainly in in Andy's budget for this year [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. [Mr Poole:] and a bit later on, he's looking to put erm I don't know, twenty thirty thousand into building a brand new cage drilling machine based on that technology. But using the the technicians and who who the main ones Robert and Bill [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. [Mr Poole:] with Brian, main input really. [Mr Fremantle:] Mhm. That sounds excellent doesn't it. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] So they're looking because we we at precision now need it but we need it faster than if we if we awaited for this, then put in and so on. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Poole:] Erm you know, five years hence, we don't want it in five years hence, we want it the end of this year, early next year. [Mr Fremantle:] This year. Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] But so far you see, the er have been involved in it, who have been craftsmen, technicians have all come out of the end of a B Tec qualification with a distinction [Mr Poole:] On the project. [Mr Rowan:] on the project. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah [Mr Rowan:] so [Mr Fremantle:] yeah [Mr Rowan:] er [Mr Fremantle:] yeah. [Mr Rowan:] it's [Mr Poole:] It it it I I think there's a lot to be said for er people doing almost any sort of practical course like that, to give them something which is real. Because certainly the thing that particularly struck me about these design and technology A levels which so often seem to be sort of er erm a contrived project, not not a real one. And and the three individuals who I worked with particularly, they'd all been more or less written off, and they all come through with distinctions. Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] And and the feedba I mean I've had feedback particularly from the parents of of all three, and in every case, er they have said, this was the making of this guy. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] You know i it's pick picked him up from being very much an also ran for whom there was virtually no no hope, er to leaving the school with a a really good qualification and a sense of pride and purpose [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] erm er which has really made a big difference. [Mr Poole:] It's a good thing really, my son did erm A level craft, design and technology [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] er and erm he he he designed his own thing what what [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] what he wanted to do and and then he got a reasonable pass and went off to university. But I think if er if he'd have had a firm's input, that wanted something designing, he'd he'd have done a lot better. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Because the thing he produced eventually, it fell over at the end of the day [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] you you know I mean, but he'd put the the research and the effort into it to get the pass. To get to get the [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] qualification. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] But if he'd have had some a little bit of direction [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Poole:] from a firm you know, I'm sure he would have he would have got a distinction er an A rather than a B you know. [Mr Fremantle:] Well than the other the other thing which I think particularly in the last one that we did which was finished back in March, we kept on changing the specification, because it started off such a such and specification and it was going to the Hanover Fair in Germany [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] in April. Or May. [Jane Warner:] April. [Mr Fremantle:] April. And then we decided not to go to the Hanover Fair, so change the specification so that it could be a a versatile sort of display for whatever we wanted to display. Er and then I heard from Australia that they were going into the engineering exhibition in Melbourne and I offered them er a mobile display and they came back with one or two added ideas and so I changed the specification again. That was going to be in May so we needed it to ship in April so I said, well you've got to you've got to still finish it at the same time. And then Australia came back and said, no that won't be soon enough, you've got to ship it I can't remember when it was, beginning of March. And so er the guy had to bring the whole project forward a month. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and er [whispering] he worked like the blazes to get this thing done []. Er and it was quite complex [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] and it worked, and it got over to Australia, it got unpacked and it still worked when it got to Australia, and it went on the stand and it stood on the stand for a week or however long it was. Er and they've now got it stashed away in in Australia waiting for the next exhibition. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] So it it was it really worked well. Very well. And I'd like to do something like that again. And I mean, some of the some of the results that we get from this competition, might well be appropriate for a a stand at an exhibition somewhere. Or it could be that they would be appropriate for the reception area in one of the factories, or we might give one to a distributor and say, here you are, this you know, put this in if you've got the right sort of area and would like to use it for a bit, stick it in there. You know so there's all sorts of [Jane Warner:] What happened to that The first [Mr Rowan:] It's in mothballs down in the. [Jane Warner:] Was it ever repaired? [Mr Rowan:] Oh aye, they repaired it [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] they were modifying the I think it was the geography of the world. [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] I mean like Australia [Mr Fremantle:] Oh a mere detail [Mr Rowan:] in the middle of the Arctic [Mr Fremantle:] Put Australia in the Northern hemisphere and that sort of thing. [Mr Rowan:] But er [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] yes it er I think the the wiring needs to be changed because i [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] it had a wooden a wooden bearing would you believe [Mr Fremantle:] Did they? [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. They modified that [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] I think that was okay. It required slip rings [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Which was a very good thing most of the the young apprentices would never know about slip rings. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] They had to manufacture that part itself. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And er as I say, at the moment [Mr Fremantle:] Well when you when you say it's in mothballs, erm how seriously in mothballs? I mean if could you take the mothballs off and dust it off and it would work? Plug it in and it would work? [Mr Rowan:] More or less yes, just a few adjustments and it could be up and running I would think. Maybe maybe a couple of hours work on it to put it back together. [Mr Fremantle:] Cos I mean, that again is something that that one might put into the into the tent or something. [Mr Rowan:] See the idea was it it picked up the the balls, took them to the and then the ball rolled round inside globe, slowly down to the bottom and then picked it up [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Jane Warner:] Originally it was supposed to be water wasn't it in in in the bottom. [Mr Fremantle:] Er there was going to be water in the bottom at one stage but that [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] got a bit too complicated. [Jane Warner:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] He was o he was over ambitious. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] In the design. [Mr Rowan:] The idea of the three spotlights of course [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] was was see that the ball [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] rushing round inside of the literally going round the worlds and then down and then. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Rowan:] Erm I know at one time they were the motors were going to fast, the ball was. [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] But the idea of course was to bring the electrical, mechanical and the technicians to redesign the little bits that were [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] erm the inside they they had to redesign that because the wood er had almost become charcoal were the [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] had been so that [Mr Fremantle:] Had they really? Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Erm and again to make it safe, it all ran on a twelve volt system. [Mr Fremantle:] That's right, it was on a twelve twelve volt erm wiper motor. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] And er and that that's They had to take the top off to make it safe, that's why I say a couple of hours work to put the top back on, erm makes balance. What it really required was probably sandbags or or steel in the base to keep the base [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes. [Mr Rowan:] stable because it was rather top heavy [Mr Fremantle:] A bit top heavy. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] with the globe at at at the top. [Mr Fremantle:] Well er [Mr Rowan:] I mean a brilliant idea really. [Mr Fremantle:] I mean if if er erm er if it would work, [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] I mean I one of the things that I've always sort of had in mind is that we put it down in the reception area. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] The only things is that now if we did that, what we want instead of saying on it, it ought to say. [Mr Rowan:] Well possibly I ought to put it on my review panel and er if there's a requirement for it. [Mr Fremantle:] If you could dig it out if you could dig it out [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] we'd put it down in the reception area. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. For a bit. And then if it if if we have it down in reception for a bit, er and it works and doesn't look like falling to bits, the we could consider taking it along to the Newark Show as well. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. As I say, it's that mechanical movement that catches the eye globe slowly turning round and the [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] I think the stress and strain on the bearings for instance, the the middle bearing of it was underrated to carry that amount of weight, not in the vertical sense but in the yawing to and fro. [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Er [Mr Rowan:] old spin and and yaw. [Mr Fremantle:] Yes it might have been. [Mr Rowan:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] It might have been. [Mr Rowan:] They need the extra weight at the bottom. The shaft needed to come through two bearings to give it that stability. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] But erm the idea is have this up and running and look at the problems. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Poole:] So th this caravan aside [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] can presume that it it's going to involve as a whole so it will have some [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Poole:] industrial type applications and precision applications in there. [Mr Fremantle:] Well I I guess the graphics need to be looked at in that [Mr Poole:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Jane. [Jane Warner:] Whereabouts is it? [Mr Rowan:] In the grounds of the college. If you go by the side of the college you'll see it from the [Jane Warner:] Where you pull into the car park? [Mr Rowan:] under the trees. On that side. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah it's a sort of er trailer thing you can see from the pavement. [Jane Warner:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] They had it on the gala day. Used it on gala day. [Jane Warner:] I didn't go to the gala day. [Mr Rowan:] We towed it to er and back. That was a feat of [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] I think the nearest thing to it is probably towing a caravan er a pyramid. [Mr Fremantle:] Really? Yes. [Mr Rowan:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Quite a quite a lot of wind resistance. [Mr Rowan:] Aerodynamic [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] It wasn't the best But ideal it's it's very spacious inside. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Erm in that respect. And erm I mean we towed it over a thousand miles so the [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] the local journeys round the town, there's no problem. [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] The average car could pull it. [Mr Fremantle:] Mm. [Mr Rowan:] Erm it's very well made we have a video, watching it being made from the bare [Mr Fremantle:] Well [Mr Rowan:] all the way up to it's [Mr Fremantle:] That that's that's certainly something Do we have a video on a on a loop or anything. Erm cos that that would be the ideal thing to do wouldn't it. [Jane Warner:] we haven't yet got copies, they're just masters at the moment but [Mr Fremantle:] Ah but we'll have copies by May surely. [Jane Warner:] If the European sales companies get their fingers out and get the languages checked for me then yes. [Mr Fremantle:] I'm quite happy to have it in English. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Fremantle:] Erm... yeah that's another thing. [Jane Warner:] Yeah it c it can be put onto a loop. [Mr Fremantle:] Video.... [Mr Rowan:] So the as far as I'm concerned, the the two projects put together erm really do show what we can do we can do with a a team of bods. Originally the er the idea was to to build this caravan in connection with School. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And er we were told that, we were told that our apprentices would be working alongside apprentices from Mercedes and Volkswagen and and so on and so forth. That wasn't quite true. So consequently we made sure that we we picked the best of our guys to match [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] the German Er secondly there there was a golden opportunity for our apprentices in industry to go and see German industry and French industry. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And so on and I'm pleased to say that they came back saying, Yeah we can still hold our head up high. The the fact that we are... very good at what we do. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Of course we didn't realize that these would be erm students from from schools. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] So their engineering knowledge was very little. [Mr Fremantle:] Still basic. [Mr Rowan:] Very basic. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] So consequently our guys ran circles round them [Mr Fremantle:] Marvellous. [Mr Rowan:] and we balance it out that we had to built the caravan, the deadline we had to tow it across there in back end of March. Erm... so it had to have all the lighting, official lighting for the continent and so on and so forth. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And that was a bit of a nice little deadline the pressure was on. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah. [Mr Rowan:] But er we got it over there and I'm quite pleased to see it, the entire school, six hundred pupils turn out to see this thing being towed up there on a [Mr Fremantle:] Wonderful [Mr Rowan:] sunny evening. [Mr Fremantle:] Wonderful [Mr Rowan:] And er had a tremendous press coverage over there. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] likewise the when it went through the town on the way out, everybody turned out to see this thing leaving. Because of the association between and York, being twins [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And people were in the street shaking hands and Marvellous absolutely marvellous you know. [Mr Fremantle:] Brilliant. [Mr Rowan:] Of course the logo was the biggest logo on there you see. [Mr Fremantle:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Rowan:] Er and even lads from the college, it was a mixture of five welding students and and five students [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] er I think our guys stole the show [Mr Fremantle:] Good. Right, well we're on to a we're on to a new er a new era, a different erm different angle. Er and erm there we are. [Mr Poole:] bef between now and March. Or are you gonna [Mr Rowan:] Well erm... no doubt Jane will actually look inside the the caravan. [Jane Warner:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Sometime and see what the facilities we've got there. Erm... I can certainly no problem. I've already earmarked the cage drilling machine just in case we did require it, to make sure that no parts were taken off it to support the next one. [Mr Fremantle:] Right, good yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Erm this is where we've asked our tool room to supply them with any parts, save taking them off the the original. To make sure it does roll. And now if with your wish we can certainly go ahead and make sure it is in tip top condition. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Make sure was have enough material to make the these cages. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Erm so I I'll concentrate on those those [Mr Fremantle:] Terrific. [Mr Rowan:] those two things. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] And again the the manpower to run it. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] I E if it works out in er that the younger guys to match up with the make sure they've got the experience to actually fault find on the machine if [Mr Fremantle:] Right. [Mr Rowan:] But I'm pretty certain it'll run all weekend. It ran all week at the N E C. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. Wonderful wonderful. [Mr Poole:] gave erm Robert and Bill and [Mr Fremantle:] Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. [Mr Rowan:] The idea is, if one of those and a couple of the younger guys, like we did at N E C [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] ideal. [Mr Poole:] Mm. [Mr Fremantle:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] Get the expert as well as a couple of supportive [Mr Fremantle:] Lovely. [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Rowan:] to talk about it. That's how we covered it at the N E C. [Mr Fremantle:] Right. Okay well I'll I'll do a I'll do a note on on the various headings that I've made so we've all got the same piece of paper. [Mr Rowan:] Mhm. [Mr Fremantle:] Erm and then we meet again in March. Er I'll let you know if there's anything cropping up again before then. Er but hopefully by March we will be able to say, well it's all ready to [Mr Poole:] Yeah. [Mr Fremantle:] hot to trot. [Jane Warner:] Okay. [Mr Fremantle:] Ready to go. [Mr Poole:] Right. [Mr Fremantle:] Wonderful, thank you very much indeed. I'll really turn it of this time. [recording ends]

[John:] project. And they're collecting words. [speaker002:] Right? [John:] Right. [speaker002:] And they just want to hear people talking so just carry on with your meeting, take no notice of that. No you can use any words you like, they are unattributable [John:] Oh right. [speaker002:] They're totally unattri er attributable. Nobody'll kno nobody will know erm who it is. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] Or be able to associate who said what. [John:] Fine Tom yeah. [LAUGHTER] [Shane:] We'll use some big ones now. [John:] Undubitably. [Shane:] To be sure to be sure sir. Right, where were we? [John:] . L H. [Shane:] . Er... November automatic, should have gone up eight per cent automatic. [John:] End date? [Shane:] November. [John:] Er so that'll be first eleven ninety four, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] check price increase applied. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Increase. All I have to do is go and see her and say I want to know see each one ticked. [Shane:] Cos remember you're headers, just the headers. [John:] Right. [Shane:] Got to check the end dates, list numbers [John:] Sure. [Shane:] To make sure that you know, they've got to understand we police it from that which means that you go over to [John:] Yeah. I think to be honest to you, the the have been given very little guidance, she doesn't understand what's supposed to happen [Shane:] Mm. [John:] and the importance of it. [Shane:] Mm. [John:] So it's just got in a bigger mess and a bigger mess to be honest with you. [Shane:] Yes and I've got the smelly straw now. [John:] Yeah that's right that's right. . [Shane:] . Well one of those Yeah, one of them's negotiated and the other one isn't. [John:] Three one four three six one. [Shane:] one three six one one eight. [John:] Yeah [Shane:] Is that it? [John:] Eight eight three eight two eight four. [Shane:] I've got one three nine [John:] That's right. [Shane:] That's okay then. [John:] That's okay. [Shane:] Er. [John:] Narrow aisle. [Shane:] Narrow aisle being done, I know that. I've seen a note for that. First of the first ninety four. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Would you know what they were? [John:] Er check price increase.... Oh this is good of you. Saves me doing this. You see, I gave all this information on disk. She's had all this on disk [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Cos I was brassed off cos I said. Erm now uplifted.... there's a letter down here.... [Shane:] It doesn't that price it just tells you. [John:] Look do you want to write on there and work that out. And then you can see what. Nineteen fifty one for the S S F two and a half. [Shane:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] Eleven twenty nine for the seventeen stroke. [Shane:] Eleven twenty nine. [John:] And eleven O eight for the two stroke. So that they're the latest prices. Effective first of the first first of the first ninety five. [Shane:] Super. [John:] Okay. [Shane:] 's Engines. [John:] 's Engines. [Shane:] Oh I'm going there next week. That's right, just say it's the thirty one one ninety four. [John:] check Backwards and forwards like a yo-yo. Erm... First of the second ninety four actually. [Shane:] Thirty first of the first, that's right, that's where it ends. [John:] Yes that's right. Okay. [Shane:] Yeah. So that's okay? [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Brilliant.. [John:] . [Shane:] No in-date. [John:] No they were called something else actually erm. [Shane:] Let's have a look at the P L A.... [John:] didn't have on this did we? [Shane:] No. I think we ought to remove that list. [John:] Which list. [Shane:] This list. [John:] Erm, they've only got one size, and S F T thirty with protector. [Shane:] That's right. Yeah.... Nice profitable business. [John:] Pardon. [Shane:] Nice profitable business. [John:] It is yes, and we've erm [Shane:] So that should be a three O eight customer. [John:] Yeah it should. Outside of one size, we should only have one size on the net list. [Shane:] It's impo let's have a look at the account number. [John:] The price on the net list should be six pound eighty. That's for the S F T thirty. [Shane:] Price... six pounds eighty, latest. Check price increase done. Change and date it to when?... [John:] Maybe er [Shane:] Thirty one twelve [John:] Thirty one twelve nine four yeah. Right. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. I didn't have that on this list did I? [Shane:] No...... Four five six... sorry four six five [John:] four six five [Shane:] six eight one hundred. [John:] six eight one hundred. [Shane:] ... er two two [John:] Two two, [Shane:] double one [John:] double one [Shane:] three one [John:] three one [Shane:] O one. [John:] O one. Okay. [Shane:] Travel. [John:] Mm. Take forty P out of that. [Shane:] Er T L A customer, well yes yeah I think we should delete all ne dene delete the net list, remove er list... and end date.... Right that's okay.. [John:] Ah right. we've erm we've done that.... Is that all we've got on erm [Shane:] Yeah we're onto the next area [John:] Right. Do you want me to just go through any others? [Shane:] The other thing you've got is the fact that P O A customers will be on here, and therefore those P O As should be on here. Right? [John:] Right. [Shane:] Plus these are over your horizon or the end of February.... [John:] Oh right, okay. [Shane:] Yeah? [John:] Yeah gotcha. Erm, we've got we're in a situation with where we've just put eight per cent. We haven't affected their order book, but all future orders we've affected by eight per cent. [Shane:] So this should be by eight per cent. [John:] It should be updated by but not applied to the order book, do you follow me. [Shane:] Yeah, sure. Check price increase... of eight per cent for new business.... Not order book. [John:] That's one one ninety four. [Shane:] Er... end date, should... be... one ninety four. So it'll be thirty one twelve ninety four. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Well if you'd like to keep it at that, that's fine. [Shane:] Yeah cos that then that then ends on that date and you negotiate for [John:] That's right, yeah. [Shane:] And that's.. I'd say that's the same thing myself. [John:] Yeah.. [Shane:] this price. No sorry no it isn't. N one oh one three. N one oh one three, N B C three. N B,.... So... four five seven six three one O one. That's alright, that's no problem. It's er [John:] It's picking up onto the same list is it? [Shane:] Yeah. End date it's picking up off the same list. End date, thirty first, of twelfth nine. Link list, O nine O to I O eight three. [John:] Good thinking. [Shane:] . [John:] . Er that was automatic ninety th er November ninety three but we've had a problem with them so we're negotiating. [Shane:] So that wants to be [John:] They've actually resisted. [Shane:] thirty one ten ninety three. Er end date. [John:] I'm just bringing you up to date really, they've actually er resisted quite violently towards the reacted quite violently towards the erm price increase and er we've erm just sent them back, Peter's just writing a letter so there'll be a letter coming in [Shane:] So you see, that needs to go in there so that when it prints it out again, we come and ask you [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] what's happening. And when you update it er which updates the whatever percentage it is, then we change the end date so that it is [John:] Right, fine. [Shane:] Otherwise I'm getting paid. [John:] No no that's right okay. I understand. That's how it should that that's how it should work yeah, I agree. [Shane:] . [John:] we've got this P O A actually. [Shane:] Ah remove... net list, P O A customer. I heard they were in trouble. [John:] Have you? [Shane:] I no sorry.. [John:] Be the sa it's the all part of the same. [Shane:] Well precision for a while because [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] of the redundancy situation. [John:] Oh. [Shane:] be a bit careful with that. Engineering. [John:] Oh that's site contractor. [Shane:] So the end date? [John:] It should follow it's list, and erm it it's one one ninety four. [Shane:] That's right then. [John:] Yeah. So that's alright then? [Shane:] I don't think you'll find it. I don't think we'll find anything should be the same, one one ninety four. [John:] One one ninety four. [Shane:] Yes. One one ninety four. [John:] One one ninety four. Yeah. 's all the same. [Shane:] Engineering. [John:] ? Erm that's fifteenth of the second ninety four for some reason. I don't know why. [Shane:] Deferred. [John:] But we've got we do very little business with them, it's really an account. Well we should actually we should That wants linking to erm 's account. Can't at the moment no. But I mean, our business with them is two hundred and nineteen pound. Why we're worrying about them I don't know. [Shane:] They probably negotiate the list at the same time as. [John:] No I don't think we do. I don't think we do. Yeah. [Shane:] Okay, if we do it to the fourteenth of the second ninety four, er and then that'd come up, I can tell you what we cos Peter's just is halfway through it with Well I say halfway through it. Hopefully he's halfway through it with erm erm so that should come up. Okay? [John:] Okay. [Shane:] . No end date. it's two four O two four five O five or two seven. remove [John:] Yeah [Shane:] oh it's quite a big value. . Well let's not remove it, let's go let's erm put it November ninety three [John:] Okay. [Shane:] November ninety four sorry, automate so it goes automatic. date to November ninety four. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] So thirty one ten ninety four. Okay.... no end date.... [John:] P O A. [Shane:] Remove... from... net...? [John:] No. [Shane:] Because then you get you get this which is. [John:] Right and we'll be able to dummy this one will we? [Shane:] . [John:] Okay. [Shane:] And you can clear this up? [John:] Sure. [Shane:] I know. [John:] Carry on carry on. [Shane:] Lead on Macduff. [John:] Carry on regardless. [Shane:] . [John:] Yes,. I've put all the together under Peter 's responsibility. Because he deals with on the [Shane:] Ah right. [John:] and since are a big potential one one ninety four I've got down here. [Shane:] Yeah, it's only one. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] And er [Shane:] So it's still outstanding presumably? [John:] Er I think it is, yes. Do you want me to ch check for you? [Shane:] It's just that if there has been a price increase, then the end date wants changing as well... [John:] There's a letter in with that one.. [Shane:] Right so we haven't had a price increase? [John:] No. No we have we haven'we're halfway through it with working out. [Shane:] . [John:] All the same, they should all be the same. [Shane:] And the end date wants to be in as? [John:] I don't think we can treat them individually. [Shane:] Right. [John:] You know, I think we should tie em all up with the same [Shane:] Thirty one well ninety th ninety it says ninety three. Hang on, this account number. End date thirty one twelve ninety three. It looks like they're all linked in [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Thirty three, thirty four [John:] They should all be the same, let's put them together anyway, even if they're not, we should put them together because erm I mean they're all part of the same company anyway. We can't tre we shouldn't treat them individually. We should treat them. [Shane:] Right, [clears throat]. [John:] people. One four ninety four. [Shane:] End... date... thirty one... O three ninety four. That'll stop this one coming up. Engineering. [John:] yeah, 's a subcontractor. [Shane:] So one [John:] one one ninet [Shane:] Thirty one twelve [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . That's okay.. list price. [John:] ? P O A I've got down here. [Shane:] So [John:] Somebody's [Shane:] Remove [John:] No no I don't think we should do that. We could actually remove the net list right, but I think we should have a net list for. Yeah but I don't think it's been updated for so long. [Shane:] Mm. [John:] At the moment erm Shane I've got a new enquiry in the system for a whole works, right, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] What I'd like to do is reprice that and put that in as the net list. [Shane:] Right. [John:] Do you follow me, for the spares. [Shane:] Yeah yeah. But we need to put an end date on that. [John:] Erm oh I see, yeah. [Shane:] Otherwise it's gonna keep up. [John:] Yeah. Erm... well... we can change this end date can't we? [Shane:] Yes, if we put end date in as thirty one, twelve ninety three. [John:] Yeah. That's right. So that keeps popping up, and then we get it right. When we've got it right, we can put it to. [Shane:] . [John:] one one ninety four. [Shane:] end date... thirty one twelve ninety three.. , Engineering,..... [John:] .... Er one one ninety four. [Shane:] End date... thirty twelve ninety three.. [John:] One two ninety four. [Shane:] end date... thirty one, one ninety four. Er Engineering. [John:] November automatic. November ninety three. [Shane:] So check price increase done.... Enter.... Enter end date... er thirty one ten ninety four. Next one [John:] Er automatic, November ninety three. [Shane:] Check price increase done.... enter... end date... what date was it again? [John:] November ninety three. [Shane:] Thirty one ten ninety four. [John:] Yeah. Cancel. Take it out. [Shane:] Remove net list P O A customer. [John:] Don't wan don't even want it this far. [Shane:] Okay well we'll do that later. [John:] Okay okay. , yeah, we're in the middle of that. It's one one ninety four. [Shane:] So that's okay. So [John:] do a lot of work on that. . Er one one ninety four negotiate. [Shane:] So one one ninety four, enter... annual date... thirty one twelve ninety three. Engineering. [John:] Engineering, November automatic. [Shane:] Enter end date, thirty one twelve, automatic? So these should have had price increases. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Check price increase.... Thirty one twelve ninety four. increased....... [John:] That should've been automatic,ni November ninety three. [Shane:] ninety three,.... done, thirty one ten ninety four. [John:] that's automatic. Ninety three. November ninety three..... Think of the money we're giving away by missing these. [Shane:] They might have been done, it's just that we don't know. [John:] No I know. [Shane:] That makes it even worse. [John:] . Er one one ninety four.... Really for our business, it's worth messing around now. Erm that's business, I think if you just put er eight per cent on that, just p whatever, if we've got a net list, put it out the way. [Shane:] Ninety three, check price... increase... eight per cent done... thirty one twelve ninety four. one six three three O three [John:] That looks a reference. [Shane:] M C three. [John:] ... I think that's ceramic coated bearings isn't it? [Shane:] Really. [John:] Bit of a failure weren't they? Well so we should certainly put them up [LAUGHTER] by eight per cent. [Shane:] Er. [John:] , automatic, November ninety three. [Shane:] Check... price... increase... thirty one ten ninety four. If not thirty one ten ninety three.. [John:] That's automatic again.... [Shane:] Industries. [John:] , yes we've I've just just done those. We're on to the next area now aren't we? , one one ninety four. Erm but I've been this is I've been progressively pricing this account. [Shane:] Right. [John:] We've had erm on those two two two price increases on the O eighty eight which is the volume size, [Shane:] Yes. [John:] and we've just had another one on the B A C O ninet O nine O. Yes that's why I've the increase of twelve and a half per cent on it. [Shane:] Right. [John:] So you can see that er... that price seventy six of those, that price goes up to two hundred and something pound which is. [Shane:] thirty one twelve ninety three was that? [John:] Ninety three yeah. [Shane:] Ninety three if price increase... not done. [John:] should say, C J B G. [Shane:] Yes, thirty twelve ninety four. C J B G letter. [John:] Yeah I think you will yeah. Don't you? [Shane:] I bloody hope so. Cos I'm not doing this every year. [John:] No but we shouldn't need to. [Shane:] No. [John:] We shouldn't need to. Volumes is not until er later on in the year. [Shane:] Third of April. [John:] That's it yeah, first of the fourth ninety four. [Shane:] that sounds okay. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Whoops.. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] thanks a lot bruv [John:] is erm quite a circus cos they we've got two accounts, we've got and the original equipment manufacturers. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] And er it's a real game of soldiers, last time I had them up here and er oh it was quite fun really. [Shane:] That's nice. [John:] Yes it's good, yeah. Well last year I've improved the margin on that something something wicked. Cos er we went through it last year and I all the sizes that we only supplied, I just put them up [Shane:] Mm. [John:] and er if they were if they weren't making a reasonable amount you know, eight and a half per cent, ten and a half on some of them. [Shane:] Right. [John:] And on the ones cos they were trying to s screw us down to the floor and on the popular metric where they I knew they were gonna they could find better suppliers, I was only about two per cent on some of those. You know, one and a half per cent. And I said to them, Look I've re-costed all this, this is your new price sorted, and he said, we can't see what price increase we made. [LAUGHTER] And I said, well, you know, overall it's gonna be what we said, you know I said, we I've tried to meet your targets, I said, but I've had to to increase some up fart higher than others you know. [LAUGHTER]. Got away with it. [Shane:] Bloody Hell. [John:] They believed me. [Shane:] Oh dear. Er [John:] . Oh automatic that should be, eight per cent automatic. [Shane:] Check price increase... done eight per cent. If yes, enter... end date of which date? [John:] November ninety three. [Shane:] Thirty one ten ninety four. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Don't have to do it done that one. Dear oh dear. Limited. [John:] That should be automatic, November ninety three.... [Shane:] sorry about this. [John:] That's alright. [Shane:] date ninety four. ninety three. Wonderful.. [John:] ? [Shane:] . [John:] Er automatic... [Shane:] Quick. [John:] [sigh]... manager of. [Shane:] So this hopefully. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Right then. Limited. [John:] Oh dear of dear. I don't think I've done any business really I think I've just written that account off. [Shane:] So P O A customer. [John:] P O A. [Shane:] list.... What we could do actually is with a we could have a [John:] I think I've just dumped it to the [Shane:] . We really ought to have these n these P O A customers with their pl with with their blind lists on the computer. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] And we could factor em up. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] So if you decide you want to some er eight per cent [John:] That's right. Yeah. [Shane:] Right, Instruments. [John:] Well I think do something like that. They do something very similar to that. [Shane:] Mm. [John:] They have this blind list [Shane:] Er sorry er Instruments Limited. [John:] Automatic November ninety three. [Shane:] [sigh] Check price increase... done [John:] Is this print picking up people who haven't had a price increase then? [Shane:] It's picking up people who don't have end date. [John:] Oh right. [Shane:] It gives us an opportunity to say, if the end date's not been done, has the price increase been done? [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, with an end date have actually been done. [Shane:] No because if the end date is. If you have a look at the end date, price. [John:] Price. [Shane:] End date, thirty one ten ninety four. Is that November? [John:] Yes. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] No. [Shane:] No... not... end date thirty one ten ninety three.. [John:] P O A customer. [Shane:] Let's write him off. [John:] Got to be yeah. [Shane:] P O A. [John:] Seven two O four E T A. [Shane:] Yeah, they use that Yeah that's right. Yeah, you know all about that don't you. Yeah cos you were in precision..... [John:] . [Shane:] No. [John:] . Er. I don't know anything about that. [Shane:] Engineering. [John:] , November ninety three, automatic.... [Shane:] Eight per cent thirty one ten ninety four . item. [John:] Automatic. [Shane:] check price increase [John:] worried about this one. I put that price up more than the standard, that's wrong.... This is one where I put the price up and then we went and wrote to him with a net price list showing a lower price than I'd put up and we had to reduce it. So it's got to put up it's gotta be put up eight per cent, I can tell you that. Yeah. [Shane:] Yeah. Yes, thirty one twelve ninety three. [John:] I'm annoyed about that. You know we negotiated one price, didn't get. And then we we're sending them the net list and saying there's your new le er price [Shane:] Sending them the net list [John:] and he said, this is lower than what you'd said it was gonna be. You know. [Shane:] Took the legs from under us didn't he. [John:] That's terrible.. [Shane:] . [John:] do the next page. Automatic. [Shane:] [sigh]....... Er.... [John:] Right,, P O A. [Shane:] P O A by the way, another thing I'm thinking of doing is saying, if you want a net price enter in there, it has to come through a manager or [John:] Yeah. Good idea. And er we'll have a a summary of what have got net lists and what haven't. [Shane:] And then you say whether yes or no. You have to sign it off. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Oh this one. We had some fun with it Yeah we just done this one. [Shane:] Oh we're on fourteen, area fourteen. [John:] Yeah. One one ninety four it should be. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] That's right okay. Erm and then we've just done a letter to them with the new prices. [Shane:] So that's okay. [John:] Well [Shane:] We haven't done it yet have we. [John:] Well I don't know whether you. We've done a combined jobby here erm We've done er. here they are. The prices should be. According to that dated the ninth of December. [Shane:] Oh no that's wrong then. Check price increase done. [John:] Letter ninth of December. [Shane:] nine twelve ninety three, if yes, ninety four, if not,....... Yeah. [John:] this is P O A I think. Isn't it? [Shane:] No it's got a an end date [John:] Oh it has got one one ninety four, yes you're right. Yeah. Yes. That should be er negotiate, one one ninety four. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] . I think we've put... I know we've put erm... eight per cent on on everything that's now outstanding so it should all go up eight per cent. [Shane:] Check price increase... done eight per cent on new business, yeah?... Yes one twelve ninety four. If not, ninety three.. [John:] Oh we c they cancelled them. [Shane:] Oh is that what it is? [John:] I think so, yeah. [Shane:] Ah. [John:] I assume so. [Shane:] Yeah there's no there's no cost ass [John:] No cost. [Shane:] So if it w it was after the receipt then it would be [John:] Be [Shane:] It would be a negative margin wouldn't it. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] The profit would have been minus cos the costs would still be there so it must be a cancellation. Mustn't it? [John:] That one is the same size isn't it? [Shane:] Yes. [John:] That's a C three fifths, the C M [Shane:] Yeah. And then no that's not the same. [John:] No. [Shane:] I dunno what's happened there.. [John:] That's a shame. [Shane:] Limited. [John:] er that should have gone up eight per cent. [Shane:] Check price increase [John:] I don't think that has gone up. I'm pretty sure that hasn't. [Shane:] eight per cent. If yes [John:] Ah yeah that's why because because our business was smaller but business was big. With our size we could just put up by eight per cent. [Shane:] If yes it would be what date, thirty one twelve? [John:] Well it's it's That's right yeah. [Shane:] getting frustrated. [John:] in a very matter fact way. He writes it all down, he sends it all in and expects the system to handle it.. [Shane:] Mm. Yeah but sh he should I mean on the road, you should be able to just write in and say, I want this to happen. [John:] That's right. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] But it doesn't. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] It doesn't happen on the pricing, that's for sure.. that's under review at the moment. Just cos [Shane:] Carry on. [John:] Just cos we can hear you when you're in here. [speaker002:] It's got nothing to do with that Roger. [Shane:] Nice one Tom. [John:] Touché. [speaker002:] Just tal talk into don't talk [John:] Just talk [speaker002:] away. [Shane:] [LAUGHTER] There you are you see, and you thought we were joking. [speaker002:] Get on get on with your business. [John:] Yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Right, what I've come round here for er I'm going to Israel in a month. [John:] Oh right. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] . [speaker002:] Yes that's right. I wanted to talk to you about the things that er you've got from the meetings and to just think about the pricing issues. Erm and what you might say. Yeah. Alright, well when you've finished here perhaps we can touch base. [Shane:] Touch ba that's a good one, touch base. [speaker002:] signing out. [Shane:] [LAUGHTER] I don't know. [clears throat] [John:] Yeah, erm... I don't think we increased this. Erm we quote once a year for it really er Shane this is one that [Shane:] Mm. [John:] comes out for tender. [Shane:] Right. [John:] And it should really it's I think we should put November automatic on that. [Shane:] Thirty one, ten ninety [John:] Three. [Shane:] three. [John:] Yeah and check that we've had an increase. [Shane:] Check price increase. [John:] Yeah. I don't know whether it's been done or not. I really couldn't tell you. [Shane:] Eight per cent. Check done. Right that's okay.? [John:] that's not mine. [Shane:] That's okay I can can I [John:] That's n yeah that's well that's erm that's now erm erm. So you ought to [Shane:] That's my boy. [John:] Yeah, you ought to get the dates in that for that. [Shane:] Again that's in as well. [John:] Right.. [Shane:] Yeah that's in as well. [John:] These are national accounts aren't they. [Shane:] Yeah, well that's in isn't it. [John:] That's That's not a national account. [Shane:] No [John:] That's. An area nine twenty? Oh I know why administrative receiver. Administrative receiver. [Shane:] Oh right. [John:] was administrative receiver and then it went over to Limited. [Shane:] Oh right. [John:] So you need to check with on that one just to make sure that area code's right. [Shane:] Ok. Fine. [John:] Right. [Shane:] with me. [John:] That's it thank you, I've now been through the lot. [Shane:] Smashing. [John:] Now I need to talk to er. [Shane:] Right erm [John:] And make sure that she can [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] go through all that. if I leave this here through, I can tell her what she want what i want her to do. [Shane:] That's it, and then erm then we take it to the next stage. [John:] Yeah, well the next stage is as I say to one of the priorities is to get on with the price increases and get them done, right, you know. The administration, even if it goes wrong, we can catch up with them later. [Shane:] No cos that's the mistake we made. [John:] Well alright. [Shane:] That's the state the mistake we made before. [John:] Yeah. Well the I mean the we won't leave it too late will we? I mean, there's a few that's been done that haven't been caught anyway.... Isn't there? you know there's a few we've increased. [Shane:] Well that's what I mean. [John:] Yeah we want em caught up now. [Shane:] Precisely, if we leave it too late then. [John:] That's right I agree. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah, I meant from me, I'm not I'm not doing any more and I'm not I mean, I'm just keeping this log [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] to administer the price increases. I'm not going to do that any more Shane. [Shane:] You're not? [John:] No. Only in as much as where we are. I'm gonna continue with that Yeah. But I'm not gonna c I'm not gonna administer if they're been done or not and double check every model. [Shane:] Oh no. [John:] No that's right. [Shane:] That's what this. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] That's why she [John:] Agreed. [Shane:] Yeah and I'm not saying that you know, this is yours get on with it. [John:] No no no. No I understand that. [Shane:] No. [John:] If you like, I've been doing a job which I shouldn't be doing. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Right, it shouldn't be my responsibility to do that it should it should be accepted that it's gonna be done. [Shane:] It should be done. Any decent run organization, it would be done. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] go through the P O A customers. [John:] Right. [Shane:] Sorry I thought we'd finished but we haven't. [John:] Aha. [Shane:] Er Precision Engineering, P O A. [John:] Yeah. Yeah. [Shane:] .... [John:] Don't know much about them, yes go on. [Shane:] Well if you don't recognize them. P O A. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah go on. [Shane:] . They're either dead or No that's November ninety three so that's [John:] No that's a that's a that's it's only one size but we should have that recorded as a [Shane:] Well you see, that's the point. [John:] Oh right. Okay yeah, sure. [Shane:] Engineering. [John:] got it yeah. [Shane:] P O A cust [John:] P O A customer yeah. That's [Shane:] Oh sorry [John:] Yeah yeah. [Shane:] Medical [John:] Yeah. Yeah they're they're dead. [Shane:] Dead.. [John:] Yeah okay.. [Shane:] . [John:] yes, all rollers yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Cancel. Cancel. [Shane:] you can't leave it it's dead, it just sits there.. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] .... [John:] One size isn't it. [Shane:] Cancel they're dead. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Don't know anything about it. [Shane:] It's automotive isn't it. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] forget that. That's that was some stuff you see. [Shane:] Yeah sure. [John:] And then and I think they've they're a subcontractor that's died. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Got to be in Coventry isn't it? [John:] Don't know what they. [Shane:] . [John:] ? [Shane:] . Yeah. it's. That's erm yeah. [John:] Yeah it's automatic [Shane:] No it's no it's not beginning to recognize these things. [John:] Yeah but it's a long story behind that. Yeah that's definitely. [Shane:] . [John:] did you? [Shane:] Yeah.. [John:] Yeah that's P O A. [Shane:] . [John:] yes, definitely a P O A. [Shane:] . [John:] Mm [Shane:] That's dead. [John:] That's dead yeah, it's now erm. [Shane:] . [John:] Don't know anything about that. [Shane:] Not worth worrying about. [John:] dead. [Shane:] No it's not,i that's just the history man. [John:] Alright, okay. [Shane:] . [John:] Dead. [Shane:] , P O A customer? [John:] Yeah, well we don't so a lot of business with them, it's more distribution than anybody else actually. Yeah. [Shane:] I was going to say to you, you know erm engine of Peterborough, [John:] Yeah? [Shane:] do you supply them direct? [John:] No. I don't think it's one of our accounts. I don't think we trade we don't trade with them. No it's the only business I think we get out there is from and that's automotive. [Shane:] I'd have thought had Oh mind you, have got a contract on bearing for for for. [John:] Have they? [Shane:] Yeah.. [John:] Oh right. I don't know I don't know I don't know anything about it. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] the O E side. [Shane:] . [John:] No. [Shane:] used to do er he used to make sure he got precision when he wanted it. [John:] Oh right. [Shane:] Yeah... [John:] Yeah fine that's [Shane:] It's really to make sure that there's nobody on here that should be on there. [John:] yeah. [Shane:] That's all, to make sure there's nobody on here that should be on there.. [John:] Yeah that's all right that is. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah that's okay, leave them on P O A. [Shane:] . [John:] When do these prices go up? [Shane:] They don't. [John:] They don't? [Shane:] No they don't I mean, the whole point is with P O A is what's wh what we're doing is sorting out should the customer be on P O A or should be on net list. If he's on P O A and he should be on net list, we need to change it, if he's on [John:] . [Shane:] Right. Once we've done that we can then start examining the list to see what's on the list. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] And on the P O A. [John:] On some of these P O A's if there's a big potential, I'd like to have a dummy net list. [Shane:] Yeah, that's what I want. [John:] So we'll be saying, look these are the core sizes, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] but anything out of that, we don't want to know [Shane:] Right. [John:] these are the prices we quote. [Shane:] Right. [John:] Do you follow me? [Shane:] Yeah, I mean I I don't know what what but that's obviously by the look of it. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] That's the sort of thing you're interested in isn't it? Not not two of this [John:] No that's right yeah. [Shane:] That's so what. Engineering. Engineering. [John:] Yeah that's P O A. [Shane:] . [John:] yeah the same. [Shane:] .... [John:] I thought we had a net list for them. But er go on leave them on there leave them on there [Shane:] Ooh are you sure? [John:] leave them on there. Go on. [Shane:] Well I suppose you what the thing is we [John:] Leave them on there. [Shane:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. Yeah I think so. Er [Shane:] Linear account that. [John:] Yeah well leave that leave that alone that's alright. But it should really we should quote volumes for that and they do volumes business. [Shane:] Right. [John:] But they always go market and they go against stipulation and buy when they want to. They they supposed. [Shane:] They're not, no.. [John:] Yeah I know. But erm they do. Mind you I want to try and get them to take. [Shane:] That's different. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] That's made in the U K. [John:] That's right yeah.. Power Tools. [Shane:] it's all bloody walls isn't it. [John:] Yeah.. [Shane:] Isn't it. [John:] It is no it's part of Group but it's power tools down in. [Shane:] Oh right. Hydraulics. [John:] . [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah. yeah forget about that. [Shane:] . International. [John:] That rings a bell, that's the same account actually. [Shane:] . [John:] That's de that's cancelled. [Shane:] . [John:] , yeah leave that on. Yeah. [Shane:] Engineering. . [John:] What's the next thing? [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah that's alright. [Shane:] . [John:] I don't know what that's Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Fine yeah that's that's. [Shane:] Is it? No no no C F C. [John:] No no. [Shane:] They don't come back. [John:] tell you about it. [Shane:] They don't come back. [John:] They don't come back. [Shane:] They go [John:] They don't come back. Bang. [Shane:] Bang. [John:] Weapons isn't it. [Shane:] . [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] Yes. [Shane:] ? [John:] Yeah. Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] business. Oh yeah, special bearings yeah, leave that. [Shane:] . [John:] yeah. Yeah. [Shane:] . [John:] yeah leave it on. Leave it on. [Shane:] .. [John:] . [Shane:] . I mean I can't take them off I can't cancel them off. [John:] No okay. Oh well if they we can't cancel them off, that's alright. [Shane:] . [John:] . [Shane:] . [John:] Don't know anything about them. [Shane:] . [John:] , that's alright. [Shane:] . [John:] Er yeah, that's okay,. [Shane:] The. [John:] yeah. You can le you can't take it off so leave it there. I don't think we'll ever trade with them again. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] No.. [Shane:] . [John:] That's the sort of thing we should have isn't it. [Shane:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] We've gotta do a new record card you know for the. And when they're all filled in we shall in here. [Shane:] Well what would it tell you? [John:] It'll tell trading an account, contacts there, percentage of business goes where. [Shane:] How are you gonna get that? [John:] salesman's gonna do that over a period of time.. I don't know. [Shane:] They buy six X R J T four three forties. [John:] Oh do they? [Shane:] It ain't worth worrying about to be honest mate. [John:] Course it ain't. [Shane:] . [John:] . That's a bit special bearings special bearings job. [Shane:] Company. [John:] Yeah, that's gonna be a good one. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] I want that put on a net list. [Shane:] Whoo. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Change [John:] To [Shane:] to [John:] net [Shane:] net list. [John:] that one size. Alright. End date, one one nine what do you want? You want thirty first of the twelfth ninety four. That's it. well we've got one. [Shane:] Got one. [John:] .... [Shane:] . [John:] . [Shane:] . [John:] Oh bollocks to that. [Shane:] P O A. Is that a new word?... [John:] . [Shane:] . [John:] Oh. [Shane:] Oh that wants to be a net list. [John:] Yeah does it? [Shane:] Yeah. Russell [John:] Oh it's Russell it's alright. [Shane:] It's okay. [John:] It's alright. You got list. [Shane:] O twenty two. [John:] That's right. [Shane:] I don't want to do that then do I. [John:] Hey that's interesting that's interesting. [Shane:] You've finished with me. [John:] Yeah we do want a net list for that [Shane:] . [John:] should have done that by now. Machines. Interesting. Machine Tools, Yeah this is all Russell's. [Shane:] It's all Russell's. [John:] Alright yeah thank you very much. [Shane:] Okay. [John:] very much obliged some more er. Right thanks a lot Shane that's lovely.

[S Williams:] Well I'm not down are they? [LAUGHTER] [T Fremantle:] Now tell me tell me about? [S Williams:] Right you know they're at export price list? [T Fremantle:] Yes. [S Williams:] Yeah, er Steven er Steve their er designer [T Fremantle:] These were the people I wrote to the other day? [S Williams:] That's right, Roy and Jerry. Steve works in the engineering office and has taken over some of the er you know purchasing function as well, like enquiries and stuff. [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] He's just been on to Maureen, got a couple of orders bearings and an Anglia contact. I explained to him about what we've done up to date and the fact that we've yet to sort the account out properly. [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] Er and what he's saying is, well can I have a price for these items? So I said, well I I explained, now look, you were on an export price list now, one of the things Jerry didn't like [T Fremantle:] [cough] [S Williams:] but we've got to look at is more comparable with U K. [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] Erm so what I've done is said, Are these for use in U K or export? and these are for use in the U K. Right so I've said well we'll probably give you a price relating to that then. [T Fremantle:] ball bearings and and what was the other one? [S Williams:] And an Anglia contact bearing as well. [T Fremantle:] . [S Williams:] Yeah. [T Fremantle:] Right er [S Williams:] Now you know, to be to be honest I was talking about it, I couldn't tell you what the average percent is from last year. [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] Er in fa I don't know [T Fremantle:] Could I... I could from those statistics couldn't I tho Or or haven't we sold anything to this year? [S Williams:] Erm I'm not sure whether we have or not. [T Fremantle:] Won't it be on this lot? [S Williams:] Er I'm not sure actually whether they would appear on them or not, I haven't seen the new statistics so I don't know. [T Fremantle:] Wh who no no no these are old statistics, these are your [S Williams:] Mine? No they won't be on because they're export. No they're not on January's. [T Fremantle:] Oh because they count as export? [S Williams:] That's right. [T Fremantle:] Although they're at home. [S Williams:] Ye they've only just been put onto a home account. [T Fremantle:] [sigh] [S Williams:] [LAUGHTER] You think you've got problems. [T Fremantle:] [sigh] [S Williams:] Yeah. Right. So now I can't tell you but I [T Fremantle:] Right. [S Williams:] know I know it'll be say thirtyish percent. Yeah as [T Fremantle:] Right. [S Williams:] opposed to the forty in the U K so we've got to get it up a bit. Erm but I've just thought, you know, get this away, let him get you know, buy them, go in at say forty percent as an O E margin [T Fremantle:] What would I mean if it wasn't, if it was if it was erm think of another U K customer. [S Williams:] A similar sized U K customer [T Fremantle:] Yes. Well [S Williams:] We'd be looking at making forty percent margin. Between thirty five, forty percent margin. [T Fremantle:] Well you better price them accordingly. [S Williams:] Right okay. It's just that and then we have got to get this sorted out long [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] term obviously. [T Fremantle:] Yeah. [S Williams:] So [T Fremantle:] Well i apart from anything else, it's stating our position [S Williams:] Sure. [T Fremantle:] isn't it? [S Williams:] Yeah. [T Fremantle:] Now where erm... Yeah I mean does that [S Williams:] You see. [T Fremantle:] does that compare them with the customers? U K customers? [S Williams:] I haven't even looked at yet. Oh on those, no we charge them a lot more. The ones we c we manage to sell at about fifty, fifty five percent margin. [T Fremantle:] Right. [S Williams:] Because although that's [speaker003:] three o'clock. [T Fremantle:] It's not three o'clock is it? [speaker003:] Oh it is. [T Fremantle:] It's three o'clock. [S Williams:] It's two minutes to. [T Fremantle:] Right okay. [recording ends]

[John:] I haven't had time to get it up on the machine to change again quickly but I've had a quick look at the situation with regard to the five per cent increase. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] So the saving that we were going to make them, by reducing five per cent but increasing the lancer machine bearings and bumping this standard cost one up to well as it turned out, seventeen per cent margin. Yeah? [Shane:] Mhm. [John:] Would would ta make that three thousand pounds. [Shane:] Which is the one we've just been talking about. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] And so we were going up from that price to that price. [John:] That's what I wanted to do. [Shane:] That's what you wanted to do, you hadn't discussed these with them. [John:] I've mentioned it to him and what he's saying is come back with a firm proposal. Obviously what happened then this was before [Shane:] This is because this was the dead stock that we sent him. [John:] The tools I wanted to get rid of. [Shane:] Okay. Yeah. [John:] It's changed really now because of the fact we pulled [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] we've got more of a leverage so we [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] need to re-look at how we Because he's mentioned straight away, as soon as he was in the mire [Shane:] Right. [John:] well you know, the five per cent reduction you know, don't worry about that at the minute and and all this sort of thing so [Shane:] Right yeah. [John:] it it does need another [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] looking at. Basically what if we do increase to that price. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] On the machine build that he's given me for this year, of which that is an example. The two arrow machines use it and there's a hundred and two hundred and nine machines altogether [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Mill which will have three of these one each machine. six hundred bearings pairs. [Shane:] Six hundred and thirty seven to be precise [John:] Right. [Shane:] yes. [John:] Well the difference is about six hundred and seventy two pounds. [Shane:] You mean the increase in prices. [John:] Yes that's how much extra it'll cost him. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Er we've run up a cost of two hundred and fifty quid getting. [Shane:] And the rest and the rest. [John:] Well this is this is what the point [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] I think now's the time. I want to try and get it done, bearing in mind Elaine's going to have to have the baby on Friday if she hasn't had it before. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] So will more than likely be off next week, but I do want to try and get something done with this and some of the other accounts, I want to try and get them out the way before I [Shane:] Right. [John:] . [Shane:] Now what's the the how have you calculated the five per cent erm reduction? Is th is that because all [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] these are down five per ce No that's not it. [John:] That's down five, that's dow er that's up [Shane:] That's up. [John:] because it's the lancer machine. That one's up because it's the lancer machine. It's just those two that'll have gone down by five per cent which are the sabre machine bearings. [Shane:] Right. [John:] Okay? [Shane:] So what's that five per cent negative worth to us? [John:] Well what I what I did here, to work it out so I could come up to some sort of value, is I said I haven't had time to chuck these back on the screen yet to start again [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] but this is where it got to when we talked about it last time. Er is I'd looked at the using their machine build which I've built in, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] on the sabre range, the lancers and the arrows, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] it would mean that is the price that they would sell at the nineteen ninety four price volume. And that's the price... up to that one. Yeah that's it, the first five lines. So you're going for a five six to five nine, thirteen nine to fourteen six, thirteen seven to fourteen five. [Shane:] So that that's the saving effect, the difference between those two is the saving. [John:] Yeah, that is the saving that they would have made on each of those builds. [Shane:] So we're talking there about [John:] I'll I'll do it on the computer but [Shane:] Savings savings of whatever this is, it's three hundred erm that's er seven hundred, that's a thousand. Er thirteen seven that's eight hundred, that's eighteen hundred. That's a big one isn't it. [John:] About fifteen hundred. [Shane:] Er that's three thousand three hundred [John:] forty eight machines you see. [Shane:] Right, so another sixteen hundred there. So so that's four or five thousand pounds that we're giving to them. [John:] Right and and by putting these prices up on the lancer and that I was actually clawing a couple of thousand pound back off them. And that's I was trying to put myself in the position of before. Still offering them a three thousand pound saving. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] But helping our spread if you know what I mean. Yeah? [Shane:] Right. [John:] Now it's a different ball game because we I think we have an opportunity to maintain that price for a while. I mean i it's it's where we feel we need to make the emphasis. [Shane:] This is based on full full year isn't it. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Erm one of the things that er... would be nice to end up with is a price on the books which is the higher price. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] So that the price we want to end up with on the books is is [John:] Mhm. [Shane:] that one, that one, that one [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] that one and that one. [John:] Yeah, now well this is [Shane:] [cough] [John:] That one e erm I mean I'm a I was just I I said twenty pound O six, it was a quick calculation, it ends up at seventeen per cent margin. Erm you see it's it's balancing that between the fact that we don't [Shane:] Mm. [John:] But we're s we're gonna be charging it approximately twice as much as would. But we've helped him. And I think we've got [Shane:] But but but we're only charging twice as much as would erm because are providing a standard bearing. [John:] Er well selected for their standards that we think is the only way they could do it. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Although, understanding the way, volume manufacture and I would say they've probably if they've got similar production facilities, got a very good chance of producing good stuff anyway. Along the lines of, there's a very good probability they'll just take [Shane:] Mm. [John:] it straight off the line knowing that it's coming in. We we haven't got as precision. [Shane:] So what's the advantage of of our product over theirs. [John:] Nothing really. [Shane:] Think of one. [John:] Well er [LAUGHTER]. [Shane:] There must be some dimensions that have been more thoroughly checked than than er [John:] Well no because I c I can't say exactly how 's applying their product. They could be doing it on a Yes well ninety per cent of them will be P five. They could be selecting them off the [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] line. Yeah if they if their churning out the stock that tu tend to churn out, I mean I go along for an enquiry for a few and find they've got thousands in stock. You know. And you think, Bloody hell, well I'm not surprised they can guarantee getting P fives. If I had all them to choose from, I could guarantee it. [Shane:] [cough] [John:] I don't know how they're achieving the price. I mean they're they're s they were something like twelve quid a pair. Yeah? Now... John says he he can only imagine that they're selecting them out. But then again, John's a precision man. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? So you know, coming to terms with how manage to do what they do, you can see it's probably actually not too bad a price to charge when they can get them cheaper. [Shane:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But but we also know that if er [yawning] select from the end of the line of [] standard production. They don't select on every feature, they only select on some. Don't they? [John:] No not necessarily they could er they could check for all tolerances [Shane:] [sigh] [John:] And I don't know how they do it. This is it I don't know how they do it. It's only dimensional tolerances don't forget. They don't have to test them or anything. [Shane:] Well according to the the P Thanks Carol, the the the P five specs no doesn't involve noise testing. [John:] No it's purely dimensional. The thing is, the machine tool industry or super precision requirements be become use and take for granted a noise specification, the fact that it must run quietly. But you can get P [Shane:] Right well that's something that's something that you've got to you've got to differentiate. [John:] Mm. [Shane:] Ours are noise tested correct? [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] P five does not require a noise test. [John:] No. [Shane:] Correct? [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Right so what you're getting from us is a noise tested bearing. [John:] Right okay. [Shane:] Secondly er [John:] We guarantee P five. [Shane:] We we are we're guaranteeing P five plus a noise level. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] So you're actually getting something that you terribly badly need [John:] I put the seed of doubt into Steve's mind about the fact that I could not say that er bearings could be guaranteed P five at that price. I said, the way they're picking them out, I couldn't say that they can guarantee every bearing. [Shane:] Right and and what's the noise test that we put ours through, is that three dimensional noise testing there frequencies and and so on and [John:] Yeah the normal. [Shane:] Right, so so what we're doing is a noise test to super precision [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] limits. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Right is [yawning] there anything else like that pardon me, oh dear []. Is there anything else like that which erm er which we do that they may not do. [John:] Not really. Cage it'd be interesting to find out what cage material they're supplying. [Shane:] What cage material are you supplying? [John:] I've a feeling B E T N. [Shane:] B E T N. [John:] Yeah so it's the er cage. the buttress type thing. [Shane:] Yeah [cough]. [John:] Er okay, so you've got your quiet noise running. Quiet noise. [Shane:] Be sure about the cage. [John:] Yeah, it's the one, I'm not so sure what they would supply you see. Possibly nylon. They do tend to have single nylon that's a single strip that just folds round. They do a lot of that support frames. [Shane:] Do they? [John:] Yeah, a single strip that they actually just feed into the ring and then put the balls in. So it's not actually a solid ring, it's n nylon thing which sits in. Oh yeah they use that f in in the in the P two class product they have some of those in. Japanese do it as well. they works, I mean you know, our point is we always you know, we've got the guarantee with the cage and that. But er [Shane:] Well [cough] okay so so you're going to you're going to erm emphasize the er the fact that what we are supplying is a noise tested [John:] Mhm. [Shane:] P five bearing. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] You're going to emphasize the fact that our cage of course is erm a buttress cage [John:] Mhm. [Shane:] er out of er Polyamide six six. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Is it still polyamide sixty six, not. [John:] I don't think it's changed yet. [Shane:] Erm [John:] Our stocks over there would still be that anyway. [Shane:] And er er and and that that these have er substantial advantages for them and and don't know but but there's got to be an element of doubt. [John:] Yeah yeah. [Shane:] Erm and although they may say they're noise tested, erm I think you've gotta question whether they're noise tested to the level. And you've seen our facilities here. Er and and you know how [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] how very very careful we are. [John:] Mm. [Shane:] So what you're what you can be sure of getting from us is absolutely on line and of course you're getting a service. [John:] Right. Erm e mainly it's where do I put the emphasis. I know we've got a lever now, yeah, we're gonna get rid of this in other words, Steve's gonna give us something for it. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, it's identifying where we want to get it. Now okay, I know what you mean by saying yes, you want to get the higher price everywhere. But if we took the highest price of everything then we're making thousands and thousands and thousands. Now [Shane:] Yeah well presumably we're reversing this position. [John:] That's right, we've got to balance that with the fact that we did promise them a decrease, but we've got the erm leverage of having helped them. So if we've got [Shane:] Well hang on hang on, hang on. I'll tell you what we'll do. I'll tell you what we'll do. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] How about we leave the price as it is. We'll we'll we'll leave no no we'll no no we'll leave these these prices here which we were gonna reduce, we're gonna [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] leave them as they are. [John:] Right. [Shane:] But we will give them a five per cent reduction on those prices wh for deliveries between March and September. [John:] So we're giving em it for six months. [Shane:] We're giving it for six months. [John:] . [Shane:] That's worth two and a half thousand quid. [John:] Yeah. Mm. Er June to December he'll say. [Shane:] Alright June to December but that's Yeah [John:] Just easier you see, cos he'll say the then for when we do a price increase next time. Cos if you go back up in September, it's higher for the increase next January. [Shane:] Well that's exactly right. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [Shane:] But [LAUGHTER] but at Yeah okay but at least we've got the price on the table. Maybe we don't increase it next January. [John:] Mm. [Shane:] Maybe we leave it where it is, but at least that price is on the table. [John:] Right. [Shane:] Whereas anything else we do, we've got to fight ou we've got to claw our way back to that. [John:] I'll tell you what then, we've got the two options, we've got the one area of this five per cent where [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] we don't want to give em it for the whole year. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] And I've got the standard cost here I need to get up. [Shane:] Right. [John:] Right, now erm I want to get that up first. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] I want to make profit on one size rather than er [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, keep it on others. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] So how about if I look at the six monthly saving, [Shane:] Yes. [John:] Yeah. [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] I look at what that is in value, about two and a half thousand, I'll look at this one, [Shane:] Yeah. [John:] I'll put a reasonable price in there, I see what that's gonn [recording ends]

[John:] Any other problems that you're getting a bit? [Sara:] Er sometimes I get some muddled up on that erm V A T sometimes. [John:] Yep, okay. A lot of adults just haven't got a clue at working out V A T or any sort of, since you mentioned percentages it's blurgh can't do that. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] The woman at work, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] she you know [Sara:] Well everyone'll do it, everyone did go home eventually and their wages, cos there was there was two of us, I told you didn't I, there was two of us that worked it out. [John:] She was telling you, telling you again ten per cent [Sara:] Yeah, and we all sail go home and check, just check [LAUGHTER]. [John:] What what came of it, did they [Sara:] They were all seven per cent, so for [John:] So it was seven per cent that they were giving him not ten per cent? [Sara:] Yeah, so she was a bad con merchant [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] That man didn't he get any more money out of it, but we, don't let him get away with thinking their giving him [Sara:] No, well they all said next time they'll check, because some of them just just take it for granted. [John:] Well, you know a lot of p a lot of them just can't check. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] They don't know, you know, how to check. [Sara:] Well the others have made a bit, we just took it for granted that she was giving us ten per cent rise, and didn't bother, cos they trusted her, but [John:] Okay, well this will [Sara:] Though yeah they won't trust more than the once [LAUGHTER]. [John:] There's a lot of that, you know, wouldn't buy a used car of him, but it's [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] yeah, though, so don't forget to have him looking after my money. [Sara:] Oh no. [John:] No. So we'll just have a little quick think about numbers generally, and then we'll sort of have a look at the fractions, and then we'll have a look at percentages [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] just for a bit of revision. So you start of with the normal counting numbers, and everyone's quite happy and no problem with that, so we do something like seven add, let's say we do er three add seven, and what does that come to? [Sara:] Er what, ten [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Okay, and seven add three. [Sara:] Ten. [John:] No problem when you're switching round, okay, and then we do something like erm, let's say we do ten takeaway seven? [Sara:] Three. [John:] Okay, and then we do seven takeaway ten? [Sara:] Minus three. [John:] Now, okay, when you're infants and with things like that you just say can't do it [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] which is right, you can't. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] No, you can't do it, you know, there's there's [Sara:] Sensible answer. [John:] There's seven pence on the table, now take ten away, must be mad, yeah, so, anyway, we don't like saying we can't do it, in maths, so we pretend we can, and we work out this complete new system, it's all a game really, it's all a silly game [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and for all these negative numbers you can't say, oh look there's minus three dogs out there. [Sara:] Well they've started giving them in schools, you've got your tab you're y aim, it's like in that piece of card with one one to ten on [John:] Yep. [Sara:] erm, with the minus numbers on,af another piece with minus numbers on, and they use them together, they don't use them till about middle infants, so. [John:] I I think that might be a bit early actually, but I know, I know they are doing it earlier and earlier, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] erm. [Sara:] It's just like writing though, isn't it? [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] I mean, the but my best posh, pushing all of four, for writing, and that's not right. [John:] I think, well, I think do everything as early as you possibly can, as long as the kid understands what they're doing, it's no good getting them to do things they don't understand, if they understand negative numbers do it [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] if they don't understand, leave it until they're a little bit older and there's other, lots of other things they can learn to concentrate on. So okay, we, we invi, we invent this new system, and we say seven take away ten is minus three, okay. Twelve divided by, oops, okay, we do something like erm three times four, which comes to? [Sara:] Twelve. [John:] Okay, and four times three? [Sara:] Twelve. [John:] There's no problem there, that's okay, then we things like twelve divided by three? [Sara:] Four. [John:] Okay, and then three divided by twelve. And the answer there is well we can't do it. [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So that, this is when fractions come into it and everybody starts getting a bit ooh I'm not very sure of what I'm doing here because it's not, you know, it's not obvious, it's not very real [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] it's not like putting pennies on the table and counting them, put twelve pennies on and share them out between three people, no problem, but you put three pennies and share them out between twelve people. [Sara:] Would it work out as minus four, I can't remember? [LAUGHTER] [John:] Ah well, okay, let's see what it does come to. Erm, how would we do it then? Let's say we've got three pizzas, and we share them out between twelve people, how would you do that? If you actually had to do it. Twelve of you coming tonight, and you got, you get some big pizzas as you're working you've got loads of money now [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] right, so you get these from, you know, dial a pizza, and er three three of giant ones, please [Sara:] Mm. [John:] and there's twelve of you to share it out, so how much are they going to get each? [Sara:] It's going to be two to a pizza, no [John:] Well [Sara:] two to [John:] it's very awkward sharing three of them out, so you could start of with by just sharing one out, if we just shared one pizza out between twelve how much would you get? One pizza. [Sara:] One. [John:] One shared out between twelve people, what fraction do you get each? [Sara:] A twelfth. [John:] Right, so you get a twelfth. So we're saying, well there's the first pizza, lets cut it up. That's your share out of the first pizza [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] now we'll have the second pizza, and we'll cut that up. [Sara:] Three twelfths, should be. [John:] Great, right you're there already, so the answer is three twelfths, and that's really, it's not much of an answer, cos all three twelfths means is three shared out between twelve, we've just written [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] it differently. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] We've just written it differently, say ooh yeah we've done that, fine, that was no problem, so then we have another little problem and work out what three shared out between twelve would come to, wouldn't [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] we? And we can say well that would be the same really erm [Sara:] As a quarter. [John:] As a quarter, right. If we all got into groups of four [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and say this group of four here, erm, will get this much [sound of container opening and objects being removed] shared out between us, so if there were a third as many people, if there was only one person we wouldn't need so many erm, if there was only one pizza, right, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] a quarter of it. Erm, we might have erm let's say, now we want to say, try and work this as a percentage, so if we've got [Sara:] Point seven five, wouldn't it? [John:] Well, hang on, we've got one pizza shared out between four people, right, erm how many pizzas would you go, you think that was just right that, that was wonderful, we all had just the right amount of pizza, when we had a quarter, when we had one shared between the four of us [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, but we're having a big party tomorrow night, and we're having a hundred people in, [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] right now how many pizzas are we going to need so they get a quarter, how many makes a quarter? How many hund how many hundredths makes a quarter, in other words? [Sara:] Well four quarters equals one. [John:] So this what we've, four quarters equals one, okay. [Sara:] So... [John:] So as soon as you get too awkward you think, oh well, forget about fractions, and let's do it by algebra. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So what have we got? We've got, we don't know how many over a hundred is equal to one over four. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Well if we don't know the answer what do we usually do? [Sara:] X [John:] Right, let's pretend we do, and we've done it now, X over a hundred is the same as one over four, equals, so we've got an equation, we've got an equation with fractions, that's one of your favourites isn't it? [Sara:] Oh yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] So [Sara:] Lovely. [John:] do you want to keep the fractions there or would you like to get rid of them? [Sara:] Get rid of it. [John:] What are you going to do to get rid of it then, so we write it out again, X over [Sara:] Times it by itself. [John:] Times it by what, what will you times that buy to [Sara:] Two. [John:] make the, make the, get rid of the hundreds on the bottom? [Sara:] A hundred. [John:] Right, so if you times that by a hundred you've got no choice there. [Sara:] You've gotta times that by a hundred. [John:] Right so you do it on other side and then work out what that comes to, so why did you multiply that side by a hundred? [Sara:] To get nought. [John:] To get one, to get [Sara:] To get one, yeah. [John:] to get that cancelling out so we've got the one on the bottom, which [Sara:] Right. [John:] comes to [Sara:] X over one, [John:] Right just X over one, which means it's going to come out to X is equal to [Sara:] X times a quarter, it's more point seven five, [John:] It's, no it's one times a [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] hundred. [Sara:] That's right. [John:] So it's one times a hundred over four. [Sara:] Which is, that's a hundred over four. [John:] Yes, it's the hundred, it's a hundred over four, what does that come to, so now if you had a hundred things shared out between, what would that come to? [Sara:] That would be X. [John:] Ah, yeah. [Sara:] That stays hundred it wouldn't it [John:] Well [Sara:] cos one times a hundred. [John:] Right, so, yeah, so it just comes to a hundred over four, good, now. [Sara:] And do you cancel that down there? [John:] Just cancel it down. [Sara:] How many fours in a hundred? [John:] Well if you can't do anything with fours in a hundred, do it in two steps, how many twos in four? [Sara:] Two. [John:] Right, so just divide that by two. [Sara:] Er, would that be fifty? [John:] That would be fifty over two. How many twos in that, fifty divide twos in that? Two. And then do it again. And you just do it again there, and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] wherever that is, [Sara:] Yeah, that'd be one, and that'd be twenty five. [John:] That's it, that's great. Right, so X is equal to? [Sara:] Twenty five over one. [John:] Twenty five, okay, X is equal t [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] to twenty five, or twenty five o, X is equal to twenty five, looking [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] wouldn't you say that that was twenty five? And what were we trying to find X for? What is it over our hundred [Sara:] Twenty five over a hundred. [John:] So twenty five over a hundred, okay? Twenty five over a hundred is equal to a quarter. So if we want to find out, and twenty five over a hundred, we've got the s, it's a special fraction, and it used to have a special name for it, and we call these percentages, twenty five per hundred, twenty five hundredths, we just say twenty five per cent. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] So twenty five per cent is the same as a quarter [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] erm, what would fifty per cent be the same as? [Sara:] Half. [John:] Right. Okay, and that's really, that's that's where percentages fit in [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] they're fractions, they don't look like fractions, if someone writes down sixty per cent you think, that's not a fraction, I can't see any, with [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] something above and something below [Sara:] It's just sixty over a hundred. [John:] Well it just means sixty over a hundred, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] It's just a special, because it's a special fraction that we use a lot we just give it a special name and call it percentage, but any time someone says to you like er what's, let's try this one, now you were saying about point seven five and things [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] what's seventy five per cent as a fraction? [Sara:] Er that, nought point seven five. [John:] Right, as a decimal it's nought point seven five, and as a fraction? That [Sara:] Is seventy five over a hundred. [John:] Right, that looks like the hundred, that's the sort of left over of the hundred, so it's just equal to seventy five over a hundred, and you [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] like to cancel that down and see what that comes to. [Sara:] Divide twenty fi, it's divided by twenty five wouldn't you? [John:] Right, do it by, good that's very good. [Sara:] Erm, so there's three twenty fives in seventy five [John:] Right. [Sara:] and four. [John:] Right. Your mental arithmetic's getting very good, by the way, I mean, at one stage, when you first started, you'd be using using your calculator for all this, wouldn't you? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so seventy five per cent is three quarters. [Sara:] Yeah. Yeah, that's when I get mixed up, the it's the twenty five per cent and the seventy five per cent, anything in between 's alright, [LAUGHTER] it's just them two [], the right, the [John:] Alright. [Sara:] wrong end of the scale. [John:] Yeah, so it gets more complicated when you say what happens if I add on so much per cent [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] erm, but the first thing is to get these straight about your seventy five per cent, what we're ta, can you work out what, as a fraction, what twenty per cent would be? [Sara:] Twenty over a hundred. So we take away from twenty, or even tens. [John:] Yeah, good, do it in tens first, so how [Sara:] Is there a two, and five, two fifths. [John:] How many tens in a hundred? [Sara:] Oh, sorry, erm, [tut], ten. [John:] Right, you were doing, you were [Sara:] Two tenths, yeah. [John:] doing both methods at the [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] same time there. [Sara:] And then you can cancel that and [John:] Cancel that. [Sara:] be one fifth. [John:] One fifth, so that's it, twenty per cent is there, one fifth. What about erm, let's give you an awkward one now, let's give you an awkward one, er, plus sixty per cent, what's sixty per cent of the two? [Sara:] Er, [whispering] six of something, six and sixty, ten sixes in sixty, how many sixes in a hundred []? Am I? [John:] How many tens in sixty? [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] How many tens in sixty? [Sara:] Six, that's [John:] Right. [Sara:] right, yeah. [John:] Okay. [Sara:] [whispering] Tens in a hundred, ten six tenths [] [John:] Six tenths? [Sara:] Three fifths. [John:] Good. That's it. So you've got no problem with these, have you? Twenty minutes, do last one. Thirty five per cent. What that comes to. [Sara:] Erm. [John:] What's going to go into thirty five? [Sara:] Five. [John:] Right. [Sara:] Seven. [John:] Good, and you know your tables. [Sara:] Erm. [John:] Right, how many fives in a hundred? [Sara:] There's, it's going to be, twenty? [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] Yeah, that's right. [John:] How did you do it? How many tens in there [Sara:] Just doubled it,at yeah. [John:] Right good,, go for, so seven twentieths. Innit one, reduce any more than that? [Sara:] No. [John:] So any per centage I give you now, you can turn it into a fraction, couldn't you? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, so if I gave you, twelve and a half per cent. [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] That's, that's, that's nasty, cos that's got sort of fractions within fractions, and they'd say, twelve point five per cent? Urgh, I think I'm not going [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I'll do that one, I usually don't do the hard ones. Twelve and a half per cent 's going to be twelve and a half over a hundred, er, oh, well, we're going to cancel, but first of all we could go the opposite way, and multiply, just to get rid of this fraction. What would you like to multiply twelve and a half by so that the half disappears? [Sara:] Twelve and a half. [John:] Yeah, what would multiply twelve and a half by if you wanted to [Sara:] A half. [John:] By two, yeah? [Sara:] Oh, that's right, yeah. [John:] Right, so what do the two twelve and a half come to? Two twelves would be how much? [Sara:] A hundred and [John:] Two twelves. [Sara:] Oh, twenty four. [John:] Right, twenty four. And two halves? [Sara:] Two. No, one, sorry. Twenty five. [John:] So that comes to twenty five. Right, so if we multiply this by two, from the top two and the bottom, we'll get twenty five over two hundred, then you can, if you want like to cancel that down, twenty five over two hundred, what would you, what would you cancel there? [Sara:] Is it just fives again? [John:] Yeah, it's fives again. [Sara:] So five fives are twenty five. [John:] Right, and that? [Sara:] So that's eighty, and there's twent, forty, so that er, five forties, that right? [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] So that [John:] That was quick, that five forty, I was trying to work it out out because I wasn't going to cancel it that way, but that's great. [Sara:] How many fives in forty? Five goes into itself once, and goes into that, erm, eight times, so it's going to be an eighth. [John:] Right, good so it's one eighth. So twelve and a half per cent is an eighth. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Seventeen and a half per cent is something horrible, it just doesn't work out to anything reasonable [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] at all and it's it messes everything [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, so you can convert any per centage into a normal frac I mean you can leave this sort of fraction is no problem, like I say, erm, seventy eight per cent is a, seventy eight over a hundred, and normally you wouldn't have to bother cancelling them down because you'd just go to use your calculator [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so could you find seventy eight per cent of erm a hundred and twenty pounds? And use your calculator on it if you like, what what are you going to do? [Sara:] And you could write it out as seventy eighty over a hundred and twenty. [John:] Is it over a hundred and twenty? [Sara:] Mm, over a hundred, yeah. [John:] just leave that at, seventy eight over a hundred, and then? [Sara:] [whispering] this is per centage probably. [] [John:] Don't, don't use your per centage, [Sara:] Er. [John:] just do seventy at the moment, just do seventy eight over a hundred. [Sara:] Nought point seven eight. [John:] Right, and then times? [Sara:] A hundred and twenty. [John:] Yeah, times a hundred and twenty. [Sara:] Nine, ninety three point six. [John:] Ninety three pounds sixty. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Now what you did when you worked out seventy eight per cent, you say seventy eight over a hundred, and you put it in your calculator, and you did seventy eight divided by a hundred, and that gave you nought point seven eight. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] So you can convert per centages into these sorts of fractions or you can convert them into decimals. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Which are another sort of fraction. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] See that. So lets convert some per centages into decimals, because this is the trick that you were using, last time you were very good at it. I said didn't I, you were very good at that, but you need to do a few, just occasionally you think wah, I can do all these now, no problem [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you don't do any for a month or so, you think oh I was bombing through these, now where do how do I get started? Which, you know. [Sara:] I know, it seems like ages. [John:] Right, so what's fifty three per cent as a decimal? [Sara:] Nought point five three. [John:] Didn't take long, you didn't need your calculator [LAUGHTER] for that []. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay, it right, erm, nought point five three, you're obviously going to do these quicker than I can write them down, so you can write them down. [Sara:] Thanks. [John:] It's erm, what would seventy nine per cent be as a decimal? [Sara:] Seventy nine per cent? [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] Nought point seven nine. [John:] Right. Well I don't think we need to go on with any more of those do we, no [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [John:] those. Right now, let's think of something a bit trickier. Someone buys erm let's say someone in the market, buys a a video at two hundred pounds from the wholesalers, right? [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] What a mug. [] [John:] A video player, you know. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Two hundred pounds, it's a good one, double decker with all sorts of, and then adds a forty five per cent mark up on it, so it starts at two hundred pounds, then adds [Sara:] You've got to add forty five per cent. [John:] Add forty five per cent. Right. So what's, how are you going to work out what that comes to? [Sara:] So it'd be forty five over a hundred [John:] Yep. [Sara:] times, hold on, [whispering] forty five divided by a hundred times two hundred [] [John:] Right. [Sara:] Ninety pounds. [John:] So ninety pounds is the mark up, ninety pounds is what you add to it, okay, and that was good that you worked that out, cos a lot of people just think ooh, you just add forty five pounds on [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] they do, I mean that's the most common thing that people want to do. [Sara:] Oh, they just do the two hundred pounds and then these people add forty five per cent in on the the because [John:] Right. [Sara:] I've done that myself. [John:] Right. [Sara:] Er I've done that myself when I was in school. [John:] Oh it's okay. So m what how much does it come to altogether then when he's added the ninety pounds on? [Sara:] Two hundred and ninety pounds. [John:] Right, so we've got the ninety, plus the original two hundred, and that comes to two ninety. Now you were doing it a very neat way, a quick way, of doing it all in one go, weren't you? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] You remember what you were doing? [Sara:] Er I done the forty five over a hundred, and timesed it. Times nought point four five of eight by two hundred and got the answer. The [John:] That was your ninety. [Sara:] Ninety. [John:] But you had a way of going straight to the two ninety in one go, do you remember what that was? you'd worked on it yourself, you you were doing just nicely. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] What we've got here is, you know what forty five is, you don't need to do forty five divided by [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] a hundred, you know that, you just sort of, you've just been doing it on those out of your head, so we've got two hundred times, now what do we finish off with, we finish off with once [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] one two hundred, and then we add on. [Sara:] The forty five. [John:] Nought point four five. [Sara:] Four five. [John:] off two hundred, now how much have we got all together? One point four five. [Sara:] Four five. [John:] That's two hundred, you remember [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] that now, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] try that one then, two hundred times one point four five. [Sara:] [whispering] two hundred [] two hundred and ninety. [John:] So go straight to the answer [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and get it very quickly without messing about, try this one then, erm, four hundred plus that, plus seventeen point five per cent, and, now then okay, let's do it this way. Let's do four hundred plus seventeen per cent. [Sara:] Right. [John:] Erm, can you do that the quick way? [Sara:] That way? [John:] Yep. [Sara:] So it'd be four hundred, times one. [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] Point [John:] Point. [Sara:] one seven. [John:] That's it. Okay. [Sara:] Four hundred and sixty. [John:] Right, four sixty. Are you rounding it to nearest pound? [Sara:] That is. [John:] That's it spot on. Good. Should have I should have done that. Right, and just, just work out what seventeen per cent, just try seventeen over a hundred times four hundred, just to check, see what it comes to, you wouldn't normally check it. [Sara:] Seventeen per cent.... Sixty eight. [John:] That makes four hundred. [Sara:] Yeah. So that's that's a good way of doing it. Now let's, so shall I do one more of those? Yeah. [John:] Hee, hee, hee, hee, and I want you to do four hundred times, I said four hundred add seventeen point five per cent. What's that going to look like?... Now that's really confusing so it quite throws you having another decimal in, doesn't it? All you do is you just [Sara:] One point [John:] Go on. [Sara:] one seven five. One one seven five. [John:] One point, that's it. [Sara:] One, oh, seventeen five, one seven five. [John:] That's it, so you just if there's any decimal points in here you just ignore it, forget about it, and you put your, because if it's a per centage you point just go in there. So it should come to a little bit more than that one, shouldn't it? [Sara:] Four hundred and seventy. [John:] Right. Okay, you happy with that? Because that's the bit that really sh throws people, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] if it was seventeen per cent, oh I can do that it's point one seven, but when it's seventeen point five, and where does the point go? I've got two [Sara:] Yeah, well, I was in a bo, I'm in a book club, and you have to add your own erm per centage on [John:] Yeah, I see. [Sara:] so I do that that way when I'm doing it to practice. [John:] Good. [Sara:] So, cos I do actually sit down and work it out, and me mum comes in and says, what you doing, [LAUGHTER], so I do use that way. [John:] Alright. Okay, so you could do this one, erm, six hundred plus forty seven point eight, point five per cent. with that one, [Sara:] Right. [John:] How are you going to work that one?... That's it. That's it. Simple as that.... [Sara:] Eight hundred and eighty seven. And ten pence. [John:] Right. And then as a quick check, just a rough check. Forty seven, out, so this is about nine hundred quid, isn't it? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Roughly. Forty seven point eight per cent, well it's about forty eight per cent. Forty eight per cent is about fifty per cent, what's fifty per cent as a fraction? [Sara:] Half. [John:] So it's six hundred, plus about half, which comes to a about nine hundred, should come to a bit less than nine hundred, and it does, so that's almost certainly [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] right. [Sara:] Add two hundred and eighty seven, and ten pence. [John:] Right. Now, how about take away in the middle of per centages? This time we start off with six hundred and we take away thirty per cent. Okay, so do that one any way you like. [Sara:] So, thirty per cent of a hundred. [John:] What does that come to, without doing it, what would it be as a decimal? Thirty [Sara:] Nought point three. [John:] Right, good. [Sara:] Then minus, but I'm not sure about that one. [John:] Right. Okay. So, if you're going to find thirty per cent of six hundred first [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so find out what thirty se what thirty per cent of six hundred is. [Sara:] Wouldn't that be best, six hundred, no, nought point three times six hundred. [John:] Right. Okay. So [Sara:] Because that's off. [John:] Right, thirty per cent [Sara:] Of [John:] six hundred [Sara:] one hundred and eighty [John:] times six hundred equals, ha, carry on with that, one hundred and eighty. Right, so, that's how much you've gotta take away from six hundred, so you can just whack in a six hundred over the top and then take it away. [Sara:] See what you mean. But I want one of these. [John:] Good. [Sara:] [whispering] Two four er four and twenty pounds. [] [John:] Right. Okay, so that should come to four hundred and twenty there, you could look at it this this way, it's six hundred times, the one lot of six hundred [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and you take away nought point three. [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] So it's six hundred times, what does one take away nought point three come from, to, one point one point nought, take away nought point three, we'll try it on here, one point nought take away nought point three, I mean, most of the time you would be actually using the [Sara:] Nought point something. [John:] Right, nought point point what? [Sara:] Can't have nought take away three, so [John:] So what you going to do? [Sara:] Borrow that one. [John:] Okay. [Sara:] Ten take away three is seven. [John:] Right. [Sara:] It's going to be nought point seven. [John:] Right. So, it's nought point seven. So we've got six hundred times nought point seven. Now that one, you're doing, sort of doing this bit, erm, you can do that bit on the calculator and then do times six hundred. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] If you like that method, use it. If you don't, if you're not happy and you're not very confident with it [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you might be better just doing it this way, just work out what thirty per cent of it is and then take it away from the original [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] that's that, I mean that's fine, that'll work all the time, this way, if you practice it, you'll find it much quicker, and it's easier [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and, you know, that, so let's let's try this one the the quick way. Six hundred times er well hang on, six hundred take away, don't use your calculator yet, just think about this and tell me what you're going to do. Six hundred take away twenty per cent. How do we do that the quick way? [Sara:] [whispering] Times. []... It's going to be [John:] Now you can do that on your calculator. [Sara:] Yeah.... nought point eight. [John:] Right, good. [564 1] And normally they won't be as easy as this, so you probably will be doing them on the calculator, so to do this you just do, erm one take away whatever the per centage is. [Sara:] It's going to be four hundred and eighty. [John:] Right, which is what we got when we did it the other way. [Sara:] Got four hundred and twenty. [John:] Did we? Oh we'll do a different one [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so we're doing twenty per cent. [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's just as well. Right, erm, so if we do this one, er, three hundred and sixty, three hundred and sixty take away, er, what'd twenty five per cent, let's start confusing you now, with these twenty fives and seventy fives, because [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] this might be where it happens, you see. [Sara:] Right. [John:] Three hundred and sixty take away twenty five per cent. [Sara:] [whispering] Times []... [John:] Right. Try, do do that one. [Sara:] Right.... That'd be a nought anyway. [John:] Right. We can always put noughts on the end of, after the decimal place,. [Sara:] So, we're going to have to borrow one from the, and then put a minus one, put that one there, leaves five, and minus one, minus two, leaves, can't do that anyway, so you're going to have to borrow this one [John:] Right. [Sara:] and use that as an note and bring that back to one, but you still can't do it, so that's got to be minus one [John:] Ah. Mm. [Sara:] Urgh. [John:] I think you're getting a bit [Sara:] well yeah. [John:] involved with the minu, you were doing well on that one, with the minus one. [Sara:] Well if you bring the one back you still can't do one minus two. [John:] No. Easy way to do it is if we've got one [Sara:] If you borrow on that, unless you borrow another one. [John:] Right, if we've got, let's let's say we've got one point nought nought, and we've got nought point two five, erm, borrow that one first of all, because we know we're going to need it [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and that makes that [Sara:] ten [John:] ten lots of ten [Sara:] Which leaves eight. [John:] er there's ten lots of ten. [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] Okay, now we're going to take the five from nought, well we can't do that, so we'll borrow a ten, borrow a one from that ten [Sara:] And leave the nine, yeah, that's right. [John:] Okay, and then what does that come to, but again, you wouldn't do that this way, you'd do that on your calculator, I just want [Sara:] Seven. [John:] you to try that for practice in [Sara:] Five. [John:] decimals, cos you're supposed to know about decimals as well, so do that one on your calculator now, I know you've just, you've just worked it out the long way, so you just, and you don't even need the one point nought, you can just put one, and then take away point, nought point two five. [Sara:] Nought point seven five. [John:] And it's already in your calculator now, so you can just do times three sixty. So you're only doing one operation. Not only is it quicker, in the exam, but every time you press a button, you know, you've got a chance of pressing the wrong one, or [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] pressing it twice, so the lea,bu, you know, the less button pressing you do the better. [Sara:] That's,th, the way I done that there, that's because we were shown, in school, to work backwards. [John:] Yep, yep. That to mean that that was a good way of doing it, the way [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you were doing it, but you went wrong on that, but [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you don't, you know, you'll get away with doing it, as long as you can do those on your on your calculator, that's okay, but that's a that's a quick way of doing that [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you could do it the long round, now I think you're okay on those. [Sara:] Right. [John:] I'll give you a problem, to look [Sara:] Okay. [John:] at, some things to work out, erm, you better write them out and then you can read your own writing then, so if I say, er, you can only in, you can just make your own notes on what you need to do the question, but computers normally costs six hundred pounds,... but erm, Rumbelows are doing a fifteen per cent discount,... how much do you pay for it? Cos this is another thing, sometimes they'll say discount, and I get ta I get students who said to me, what does this mean? What does discount mean? And they don't know, so you're happy with that aren't you, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] discount? [Sara:] Just means money off. [John:] Right. Erm, and next door they've got a what, the same computer was seven hundred and fifty pounds. But they're doing a twenty five per cent discount.... Which ones going to be, what they'd normally ask is, how, what, what is the difference is prices? And they'd usually say, which one would you buy? On the assumption that, you know, you'd buy the cheap one, might and when you want to get rid of it I'll buy the dear one. [Sara:] What's the difference in price? [John:] Yeah, price reduction pay. Erm, I think one of those is probably enough, but I'll give you another one if you want you can have [Sara:] One, yeah. [John:] a try that. Erm, I'll make them, I'll make them all take away, sorry, discounts, because if you could do those you can do the adding ones. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] I'll give you another, I'll give you one adding up one, then, okay, er one, in one shop it's erm eight hundred pound plus VAT [Sara:] The computer? [John:] yeah, er, well this is a different thing now, it is er something else, a different type of computer, say, in one shop it's eight hundred pounds, plus VAT... and in the second shop it's nine hundred and twenty five pounds, but you don't pay any VAT on that one, it's already got the VAT in [Sara:] Mm. [John:] nine hundred and twenty five gross. [Sara:] Twenty five. [John:] Right. [Sara:] Which is the cheapest? [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] Now that excluding VAT though. [John:] That, this one includes. [Sara:] Oh, that's right. [John:] The VAT is that you [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] don't have to add, no VAT to be added on [Sara:] Yeah, that I know. [John:] it's all in the price there, because this is what you actually get very often, you're ringing some places up and they'll say, oh but you you had VAT through this week. [Sara:] What's the VAT? What per centage is the VAT? [John:] Seventeen point five, unfortunately. [Sara:] Seventeen point five. [John:] Be nice if it went up to twenty per cent in the budget cos everyone could work it out more easily, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] it'd cost 'em, cost them a lot more, okay. [Sara:] What was the cheapest? [John:] Yeah, technically, it's which is the cheaper, if there are only two. How's you how's your writing doing? I know you haven't been doing any English and that, but erm, have you have you been doing much reading? [Sara:] I've, I've just been reading here some books that I've got upstairs, and stuff, and I I I went to see one of erm Shakespeare's erm, I went to see a Midnight Summer's Dream [John:] Yeah. Midsummer Night's Dream. [Sara:] on Friday night, the ballet, yeah. And it was really good, I wa I wa I wanna see the play, [John:] Right. [Sara:] but I've never had a chance to see the play, and I've got I've got a full book of his works upstairs, and [John:] Right. [Sara:] I've read it over and over again, but I just keep on going back to it, cos I can just go on reading it for [John:] You like it? [Sara:] ages, yeah I do. [John:] I I I I think it's a bit awkward, because some of the words he uses are, there a bit strange, and they're not in the dictionary any more, and er [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] they used to use words like that, you know, hundreds of years ago, but you don't [Sara:] Yeah, but you just, you just figure out for yourself what [John:] Right. [Sara:] they mean, you've you've got a fair idea. [John:] Yep, you work it out from [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] context. [Sara:] Me friend over in Norway, she said she's she got over there and sat down and she thought, yes, she's got the Complete Works of Shakespeare, I'll have a whale of a time trying to read it, she picks up the book, it's all in Norwegian. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Oh no. Well, it well, it well yeah, [] it has to be rather awkward to read that I think, I don't think I'd fancy having a go at Norwegian. [Sara:] And she's picked quite a few words up, and [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] she's come home and that, and I I picked a few words up like, and [John:] Alright. [Sara:] we there er easier to say when you've got erm a bit of drift down you as well. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Or a, or a Scouse accent, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Some of our, I mean, er Scouse is a Scandinavian word. [Sara:] Yeah,. [John:] Scouse. [Sara:] Apparently one of the the little erm boys she say, he wets himself all the time, and she turns round and she goes, he goes to er, ha ha, he started himself, and you have to change all his clothes, like that and she said [John:] Sounds like a nice kid. [LAUGHTER] [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] he's, he's, she said he's nice, [John:] Mm. [Sara:] but he just, he said, she's bright, bit [John:] he's just rebelling a bit is he? [Sara:] Yeah, erm, his mum bribes him, a lot. [John:] You be nice and you can have a [Sara:] You stop wetting yourself, if you don't wet yourself for a week I'll get you a toy, [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] and she said that's just not the way it's done, so she she saying to him now, if you da if you wet yourself once more you're going back in a nappy. [John:] Mhm. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] So he stays dry most of the time now. [LAUGHTER] [John:] How old is he? [Sara:] He's only about, about three, so [John:] So he's old enough [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] to know when he wants to go to the loo. [Sara:] I know, well she said [John:] Sounds as if he was doing it deliberately to get back at her, doesn't it? [Sara:] Yeah, well she said, it's hard you see, cos when they go, she goes out, erm, to a place called Frognapark and they have no public toilets, [John:] Right. [Sara:] so you're in the end, you have to say to him, well you'll have to wet your pants, cos [LAUGHTER] because, it's like a bi bit longer the trek. [John:] if he's if he's three he can can find a, find a drain, or just [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] go sit in, go in a corner here, rather than wet his pants. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right, okay. Erm, do another discount one, then erm [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] what's, let's say we're selling a, selling a printer, at two hundred and ninety nine pounds.... but there is a sale, and it got, they're doing forty per cent off.... Okay? [Sara:] What is the price? [John:] Two so it's, that's it. How much do you pay in the sale?... Okay? [Sara:] Do you like Bella's trophies? On the erm... [speaker003:] ideas don't they? [John:] Plus, plus you got to see how the other breeds are doing, and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] everything else, don't you? Right, bearings time. Now this is probably a. Which way's North, do you know? [Sara:] That way. [John:] That way? Okay. Good, erm, right, erm so, I want you to take a bearing on me, tell me what bearing I am from where you are. [Sara:] Forty five degrees. [John:] Right, I'll take a bearing on you, first of all. [Sara:] Now, let me see. Nought, forty five, ninety, so you're ninety degrees North, which is forty five degrees away from me. [John:] Er, how do you sort this out? Perhaps you can help me, one day, never mind. Right. [Sara:] Cos I'm sat dead. Yeah? [John:] That's North, okay? That's pointing North. [Sara:] That North. [John:] Right, well you're on a bearing of forty five degrees from me, right? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Now what bearing am I from you? I can do the easy one, you can do the hard one. [Sara:] So I'm North. [John:] No, that's, the window is North [Sara:] North. [John:] right, so I'm going to take a bearing on you. What I do, that's North, and then I sort of point round, I know it's rude to point, measure that angle, forty five degrees, okay. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] You're on a bearing forty five degrees, so. [Sara:] And you're forty five degrees away from me. [John:] Well I'm not so sure about that, but that's where I am, there, and that's North, okay, don't forget that North is nought [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] always nought, and you just, so I line up the way that is, where am I? I'm about here say, I line that up, I take a bearing on you, that's forty five degrees. See. So that's where you are, give me the one out [sound of things being moved].... Always draw that line in for North, I've just used the red line there. You usually have to start in the middle of the page. Okay? Now, so, that up there so it's sort of facing the right way. What bearing are you from me? In what, what bearing, sorry, what bearing am I from you? I take the bearing from me, you're on a bearing of forty five degrees, now, you take a bearing on me, and tell me where I am. [Sara:] So, [LAUGHTER] [John:] That's North. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Okay now, from where you are you're there. [Sara:] North. So you're forty five degrees. [John:] Now first of all [Sara:] I'm going round the wrong way. [John:] first of all that's North, so you get nought, and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] don't forget to use the outside scale, and the other thing is, make sure you've got it the right height, it's not a precise [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] okay, there's all sorts of them, I mean you can have it the wrong nought, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] the inside nought instead of the outside, or you could have it upside down or anything else, but that's pointing North, you must line it up so it points North, right, now what bearing am I from you? Right. [Sara:] Two hundred and twenty one degrees. [John:] Okay. Is that actually a forty five there?... that was that was a forty five, near enough, now, how did you work that out? Because the first thing you have to do is what? Before you can take a bearing at all there's something you have to do, which is what, what am I about to do? [Sara:] Draw the line North. [John:] Right. You must put in your North, otherwise you haven't got anything to take a bearing from. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] So, nearly every point on your diagram [Sara:] Should have a line going up. [John:] Like so. When we normally when we draw it we normally put North going straight up the page, so each person, or each ship, or whatever it is [Sara:] Is a different point. [John:] You'd need a different [Sara:] North. [John:] They're all pointing the same way, they're all pointing [Sara:] Yeah, but [John:] North. [Sara:] But they're all from their base. [John:] Right, so when you measure that,... okay, you best put it the right way up so you can see what you're doing, and we'll turn it back in a minute. [Sara:] Two hundred and [John:] Hang on, hang on. [Sara:] I haven't got it exactly on. [John:] That's where we're taking the bearing. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Sara:] There. [John:] So you just line that upon there to make sure. That's lined up North, make sure that's right on the angle you're measuring, now it's about there. [Sara:] Two hundred and twenty six. Twenty five. [John:] Two twenty five. Okay. All the way round there. [Sara:] Yeah, I get it. [John:] So, standing up a bit here, come over by the window. This is so you remember it. Okay, you stand there, stand, just stand about, hang on, stand about there. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Right, and I'll stand here. Now, I'm going to take a bearing on you. First of all where's North? Right, so here's my nice straight line pointing North. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] And then I point to you. Now which way do I turn when I'm going to point to you? [Sara:] Clockwise. [John:] Good. Always clockwise, so I stay to forty five degrees. Now you take a bearing on me, should tell me exactly what you're doing. [Sara:] So I'm going to be standing on here. [John:] Right. [Sara:] And I should move round like that, clockwise, there. [John:] Okay. Do it, do it again. Just do it, just, and as you do it think I'll remember this for my examine, right? [Sara:] So I'm standing straighter on a straight line. [John:] Right. [Sara:] And I wanna turn two hundred and twenty five degrees. [John:] You've got to turn clockwise, [Sara:] But I can't, yeah. [John:] Okay. [Sara:] So I've got to turn round. [John:] Going, so you go, that bit when you, when you, when you get there [Sara:] Back to the straight line. [John:] you've got a hundred and eighty [Sara:] Yeah. Then [John:] and then you got the rest of it, so you'll always go more than a hundred and eighty, now when you, when you're pointing you're facing that way again, turn around that way again, when you're facing that way, erm especially if I'm about erm, say especially if I'm about here. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Right, take a bearing on me. [Sara:] Yeah, got it. [John:] So yeah, and it's really tempting isn't it? [Sara:] Yes. It is [John:] When, when, when you're there this one [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] varies it's only three hundred, especially if I were that [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] i only there, it's about that much. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] No. For all the way round it's got to be clockwise, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] if you start, and that's what most people get wrong with erm bearings in the exam, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and they always give you a question like that where it's, you know, there's a nice little short way, which is the wrong way round [Sara:] Yeah, [LAUGHTER] [John:] so remember that, do when you do the bearings if you're doing some, erm examples, or you're looking through, or you're doing some revision, get up, stand up, and think, right what's to think of, oh it's not there, like if I'm taking a bearing on these flowers, it's, well, just that much in it, you know, [Sara:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] get dizzy going all the way round, but make sure you do, you know, stand up and do it, and then it'll go in. [Sara:] Hey, that'd be a good one for spatial awareness, thanks for the idea, [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. Get in, why not? Get them doing bearings when they're when they're two, as long as they understand [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] What they do, I mean just play a game, it's just a ga it's a it's a game, like sort of Simon says, try and catch them out in things, you'll say right, now you've got to point at a window, say, and then you have to point at, and you can get them all doing it, you [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] have to point out, Joe, and they all go now, okay, now a new game. You point at the window, but you must all turn round that way, turn round to your right so you're going round, then clockwise they probably wouldn't understand, but [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] they must keep turning round to your right until you point at them, and you mustn't go the short way, and you can play like erm, sort of version of musical chairs where you eliminate the ones who get it wrong, you know, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and they, if they go round the wrong way, oh all right you're out, now we try again, and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you point out this one, erm, they won't know what it's about at all, it's just a nice game, it's just fun, but later, when they come to do bearings, it'll se, it'll be se [Sara:] They'll understand, yeah. [John:] natural to them, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and they won't know what hit them, oh that'll be so naturally I'll go round that way, not the short way, why's that? Why? Cos you taught them early. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So you're going to remember that, [Sara:] Yeah. tell me about taking bearings, what do you do, let's give you an example, of some bearings to take, erm, and then you can tell me what you're doing, so there's a point there, and we'll call that erm, P, just to be awkward, now let's say what we'll do, this is what we'll d, this is a typical problem in fact, erm, I'll even draw that line on for you to start with, yeah, here's the problem, a ship is sailing due North, okay, and when it's at the point of A it takes a bearing on the lighthouse, so the lighthouse is somewhere, don't know where it is, but bearing of L from A is forty five degrees, and the bearing of L from B, which is when the ship has sailed on a lot further Mm. [John:] is erm, a hundred and twenty degrees, all right? [Sara:] Right. [John:] Now I'd like you to draw those two bearings and find out where L is, this this lighthouse, so tell me what you're doing first of all. [Sara:] I'm going to put that there. [John:] Right, that's a bit awkward. Okay. [Sara:] Erm, five and forty five degrees. [John:] Right. When you put it on check that the nautical, that you haven't got your thing upside down [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] that the nought on the on the outside is at the top, not the nought on the inside which [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] is down here, but the nought on the outside at the top. [Sara:] Erm,. [John:] Right. [Sara:] I'm drawing me line. [John:] Right. Just keep going for as long as you like on that line. Way [Sara:] Mm. [John:] up, way up here, keep going way up right [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] with that line, because you don't know where this light house is. Okay? All you know is you took a bearing from A and it could be anywhere along here, could be quite close to it or it could be miles up over here. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Sara:] Erm, then when you took it, B, it was a hundred and twenty degrees, so it was the [John:] Right.... [Sara:] I'm miles out. [John:] Doesn't matter. Er, and also when you are drawing it it doesn't matter if you keep going [Sara:] Right. [John:] because you've past it so it that's it, so, when you were here, when you, when you, say you're in the ship, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and you're at A, let's say, let's say, North is that way, okay, and you you set this up and you have a look, you say, where's that lighthouse, oh it's on a bearing of forty five degrees, and a lot later when you've sailed sort of past the lighthouse, or the lighthouse is behind you, you take a bearing, and you still go around clockwise, [Sara:] Mm. [John:] it's a hundred and twenty, so it's where they, where they meet is [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] where the lighthouse is, and that's what they actually use it for, taking bearings on ships, and if you do that and you draw your diagram, you can work out how far you are from the lighthouse, because it might, you might have in your charts [Sara:] So that's what it is then, the screens just like a protractor, they there's another protractor. [John:] Yeah, exactly. [Sara:] er on the computer [John:] Yeah, yeah. [Sara:] and you do it in the airports as well, I've seen, I er, me uncle works in Manchester airport [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] as an Air Traffic Controller, so [John:] Right. So let's say your uncle got you a job in the airport as an Air Traffic Controller, right [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and let's say that's North [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and erm you're looking, you're, let's say you turn up looking at a screen, you're actually standing up like they used to do in the old days before they had radar [Sara:] Mm. [John:] with a pair of binoculars, turning round looking for planes coming in [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] right, and you say, oh there's erm John's plane's coming in at forty five de, John's plane's coming in at forty five degrees, you see. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, from, going back to, okay? And they expect me to co be coming in from here, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] [cough] Yeah, if you don't measure it the right way, and go all the way round there and say that he's coming in on two hundred and twenty five degrees [Sara:] Twenty five degrees. [John:] on a bearing of two twenty five degrees, the other Air Traffic Controller might, if you tell him forty five degrees, he'll say, oh that's alright, he's way over here, he's not going to collide with this Seven Four Seven that's coming in this way, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and so it's very important that you give the bearing correctly. [Sara:] Yeah, he's forty five degrees, coming in at forty five degrees from me, that's what they should say. [John:] No, what they should say, is we only ever [Sara:] No, yeah, well two hundred and twenty five degrees, yeah. [John:] they just say two hundred and twenty five, cos if you start saying forty five degrees from [Sara:] From me, yeah. [John:] me it's going to get very confusing [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so we have a nice simple rule. You always point to North, always go clockwise [Sara:] Subs have got them as well, haven't they? [John:] Yes. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Subs and ships. You might here on erm, ah if you've seen old war film there's someone in a a ship, and he'll say, torpedo, bearing [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] three six, he'll say bearing two seven O, now if he says torpedo bearing two seven O, show me where the, show me where the torpe, that's that's the ship there, the S, where would the torpedo be coming from? [Sara:] So, two seven O, it'd be coming from there. [John:] Yep. So when he knows exactly where the, where it's coming in from [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] He knows how to take avoiding action. But if, if you were here, and you're on the bridge, and you get it's your turn to look out for torpedoes, and you're getting a bit panicky, and you measure it round this way instead. [Sara:] Why do they have the numbers going round anticlockwise as well? [John:] Well that's so you can work out, erm, if you if you look at any two numbers they add up to a hundred and eighty, [Sara:] Oh yeah. [John:] on this side, erm, they have them so you can work out the reverse bearings, but it's it's better not to use those, just, stick with the out [Sara:] Cos it confuses m, sometimes it confuses me. [John:] It does, just stick with the outside ones [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and go around there, well, going back to this one, you're bearing, right, you're at S and you take a bearing on this ship, J, and the bearing is two hundred and twenty five degrees, now the one ship at J takes a bearing on you, and he gets forty five degrees, well that angle, there, is always the same as that one [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] that's always forty five degrees. So. [Sara:] Yeah, cos we done that in Pythagoras. Something similar [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] with erm the hill top, and I drew the other triangle, [John:] Right, the angles outside? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Adding up to one hundred and eighty. The one outside the triangle there. Right. So, if I take this bearing, this is a g very common question they have in G C S E, take a bearing from J and it's forty five degrees, right? Now that is the the reverse bearing, the back bearing, [Sara:] And that'll be right on, right on [John:] And that would be, that would be, so if we're doing it this way, right, let's let's erm, forget about where we are sitting at the moment now, and just look we're in a helicopter looking at these ships now, so this one radios you in the helicopter and says, that ship S is on a bearing of forty five degrees [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Right, and then this ship, S, radios the helicopter and says, this ship J is on a bearing of, and let's say, let's say, he does it the wrong way round, is on a bearing of forty five degrees, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] well you think that can't be right, because, can you work out what this bearing's going to be, and instead of measuring it could we have calculated it? That's always the same as that, that angle is the same as that angle. [Sara:] Well wouldn't it be on the reverse bearing. The two hundred and twenty five? [John:] It is the two hundred and twenty five, but how could we calculate that from just looking at, if they just told us and you didn't use the protractor. That's forty five, how much is just that much of it? [Sara:] Ninety. [John:] Is it? [Sara:] I mean, no, a hundred and eighty. [John:] Right so that bit of it is a hundred and eighty, and that bit will be forty five, [Sara:] Yeah, so [John:] so what [Sara:] a hundred and eighty [John:] Add forty five, okay. [Sara:] Five, yeah. [John:] So if we did it this way, erm, let's pick an actual bearing, so that we get it right. So this time if that was seventy?... So what's going to be?... So there's A, and there's B, we're going to take a bearing here, it's the North still, take a bearing here, from North, measure it round, seventy degrees. Now what I want to know is could you work out, without measuring it, could you work out what that one will be? [Sara:] A hundred and eighty plus seventy degrees. [John:] That's it. And this is a very common question. Don't forget the big thing is about the bearing of and from, the bearing of B, and everyone must have gone and put the p put the protractor on B [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] so the bearing of B, from A, and from is where we start from. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] So if I say the bearing of B from A is seventy degrees then that's where we start from. Where we put our protractors and start from, at seventy degrees, and then they'll say, so the bearing, the bearing of B from A is seventy degrees, and then they'll say, what is the bearing of A from B? And that's a very common one they give. [Sara:] And then you just put a hundred an, a seventy, plus a hundred and eighty, [John:] Right, so if we're in a helicopter up here, and this ship says the bearing is seventy five degrees, right? [Sara:] Mm. [John:] And this ship says the bearing is? just check that one is two hundred and fifty three degrees, right? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Now what that tells us is they can't both be right, [Sara:] Mm. [John:] because this should be, if this one's right it'll be a hundred and eighty at seventy five [Sara:] Plus the five. [John:] which is how much? [Sara:] [whispering] Five, it's fifteen, [] er two hundred and fifty five. [John:] Two hundred and fifty five, and if we did it to he's absolutely right, erm then this one should have given his bearing as two fifty three minus seventy, which comes to, what does that come to? Minus thr, sorry, minus one eighty. [whispering]. [] [Sara:] Two five three. [John:] Which is two five three, so if you're in the ship you can have them you can do, work this out from the bearings they both give you and check that they're roughly right, they won't be exactly right [Sara:] Mm. [John:] cos the ships rolling like this, and someone's trying to take a bearing, it's quite difficult at sea, but they get a, they do, they get very good at tacking fairly accurately. [Sara:] Mm, [John:] Now, haven't you got questions on bearings that we did, haven't you, and notes on it? [Sara:] Yeah, it wa, we've actually done that one today, we've done that one. [John:] Whi, using forty five degrees? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, and that one with seventy. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] And forty five degrees is one, try it, try it, do that one again with forty degrees. [Sara:] Right. [John:] And, and draw it, and stand up and think how you're going to do it, and maybe you sort of, you know, sit here or something, when I've gone and face the window and say, that's North, and I must make sure I get it set up, get this the right way up and, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you've got one of these, haven't you? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Okay, so try that with erm, twenty five forty, erm, a hundred and fifty, and two hundred and ten. All different angles for in there, and you just sort of draw it and work out what the other one is, calculate it first, alright, That's, that's A from B, I'll move that A and B as well. Okay? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] This is bearing of A, this one B, from is where you start. For each one of these calculate the bearing of B from A, okay? [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] And when you've calculated it, draw some of them, and erm just check them [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] and see they come okay, because you need to do the drawing as well to sort of get you used to [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] you know, getting used to the feel of it, it's alright just talking about it or just doing some calculations and just thinking, oh yeah, I can do that now, but you can't beat really getting down and drawing the pictures, and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] playing with it and stuff like, I think I should have gone a while ago, actually, [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] other things to get caught up with, er, four o'clock, got to be over in Toxteth fairly soon. [Sara:] There's your ten pounds. [John:] Thank you very much. Your ten pounds take away nine pounds is minus four hundred pounds, which means you owe me four hundred pounds. [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] You wish. [John:] It's five hundred is it? [Sara:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It might be nothing at all. Don't go away, don't go away. Aargh, [Sara:] Oh. [John:] I knew I'd do that, bottoms fallen out of my little, my little world, [Sara:] Thanks. [John:] here's some coins for playing with, for doing erm, adding up and takings aways with the younger ones, and I keep those in there, and they're all over the bottom of that bag. [Sara:] I used to have them little plastic ones, that [John:] They're they're fine, but I think y you can't beat real ones [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] because, you know, erm, most kids these days, especially by the time they're nine or ten, they're used to having their own pocket money, and then you, and they say they can't do any maths at all, and you say well, if you had a fifty pence and you bought something for twenty four, how much change? [Sara:] Yeah, cos he knows he went down the shop, yeah. [John:] Phworgh, no problem. [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. And they can do maths, they just, it's just that when you call it maths they say they can't do it. [Sara:] Yeah, it's like the little ones, they the, the, the, erm, they handle all sorts, and when you comes actually down to seeing it on paper, you ke, it's alright if they're just counting it there in the hands and stuff. [John:] But that's, I mean that's what you've got to start from, from doing the counting and then getting to right it out, how much have got there? Twenty five P, write it down. How much have you got? Two ten P s, and one five, or something. [Sara:] Have you used all them Ladybird like er matching numbers now in the scho in the schools and that, and you've actually got to sit there and count them, so. [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] Some o, to some of them it just bores them stiff. [John:] Well I think most kids are interested in counting er if it's something that they're interested in, but if they're counting, erm, you know, little dots on a bit of paper or something, it's boring, but if they're [Sara:] I know it [John:] counting butterflies on [Sara:] There's a little boy in the nursery, and the the nursery teacher says he's he's thick, for a, he's four, and he's with the younger ones, and she said he's thick because, erm, he just can't be bothered, but what it is, he knows it, [John:] Yeah. [Sara:] and he thinks well why should I waste my time? [John:] Right. [Sara:] Doing it for her when I know I already know it. [John:] So he's not not at all thick, he's just bored, and she's not spotting that and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] giving him something to [Sara:] he's a lot [John:] to stretch him. [Sara:] he's erm he's a lot more intelligent than he lets on, and he's one of these that lets all the others push him down, where at the end of the day he can turn round [John:] And gets what he wants doesn't he? [Sara:] Yeah, because he's the smart one. [John:] Right. [Sara:] and he knows, he knows his little w his, they how to work on people, [LAUGHTER] [John:] So he's not at all daft, eh? [Sara:] No. [John:] He knows what's going on and how to make it work. [Sara:] Smar smart alec. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Did you, did you try that erm joining the the dots up on a on a graph that you were going to do last time? [Sara:] Oh, no, I didn't get, no I didn't get a chance, no. [John:] Oh, works very well. Tell you what I will do, have a go cos I want you to try that cos it's nice, erm, when you've done it, one day [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] I promise, but not at the moment cos it needs a lot of setting up, I'll get myself to set my computer up specially to make those disks [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] because I can't do them on my main one, I'll have to power up another one and getting wires between them and [Sara:] Yeah. [John:] stuff, erm, I'll I've got a disk that does interesting little joined up lines, and there's one where you can just put numbers in yourself and it'll draw all sorts of pictures for you [Sara:] Oh, yeah. [John:] and you can probably do, I don't know if you could do print screen, no, if you got, you'll have to learn graphics, but anyway, I'll tell you about that when, when you do it, my numbers in there, take all the rubbish away. See you [Sara:] It's nothing compared to what we've got in the house. [LAUGHTER] [John:] See you next week. [Sara:] Yeah. [recording ends]

[John:] [LAUGHTER] Nine? [Ruben:] Erm, mm,. [John:] Yeah, have you, have you reviewed your revision to see sort of how you're doing and how effective it is, and why it's getting you down and. [Ruben:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] No, how [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] how is it going, just plodding along with [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] you know, got more of this, more of this to do. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Er, is there any of it that you really enjoy, or sort of enjoy a little bit, or think oh this isn't too bad, or. [Ruben:] Mm, [LAUGHTER] [John:] Or don't scream at the thought of? [Ruben:] I don't know, it's something, no, I'll just plod through and. [John:] What have you been looking at in the maths. [Ruben:] Mm. I've just been going through it really, the textbook. [John:] And have you looked at some of these bits at the front to tell you how to make it more effective and. [Ruben:] Couldn't see it. [John:] Right, okay. I mean this is where it starts, with the number system, erm, do you know what any of these terms are? Do you think it's important or interesting to know? [Ruben:] Erm. [John:] People keep talking about reals and rationals, and, okay, erm. [Ruben:] Negatives. Powers. [John:] Are you happy with negatives? [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] And powers. [Ruben:] Roots. [John:] Roots? It's only free rationals. [Ruben:] Rationals. [John:] Rational and irrational, it's just a sort of, the Greeks had a funny term for it, if you can express it as a fraction, think, seventy five over two hundred and ninety seven, then it's a rational number. If you can't, if you can't find a fraction that fits then we just say it's irrational, so can you think of a, any examples? Get numbers that you can't express exactly? [Ruben:] You can't express exactly? [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] Like nought? [John:] Mhm, no, you expressed that very precisely. [Ruben:] Erm. [John:] What's, what's pi as a fraction? [Ruben:] Three point O, as a fraction, one over three point, four. [John:] Some people, some books say, oh take it to twenty two over seven or things like that, but it's not, and the approx, what you get off your calculator is only correct to however many digits you've got on your calculator, [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] you can never, people have found pi to millions of places, and it's still, they still don't find a pattern where it repeats, so those are the irrationals anyway. You know what a prime number is, and we had a quick look at, we had a look at the primes that even odd, didn't we? Erm, why are prime fa, do you know what prime factors are, and why there useful? [Ruben:] Why are they useful? Er,... I can't remember now. [John:] Okay, erm, if you break a number down into its prime factors, then you can look at the prime factors and see whether other numbers would go into it, so if we take sort of say, three sixty, and find some of its prime factors. You won't find any sevens in there, won't be able to, does fourteen go into three sixty, you can have a look at it's a prime factors and say, well no, there isn't a seven there, erm does thirty six go into three sixty one, we're looking for something that threes and twos, appropriate number, three times three, or two times two times three times three would be thirty six, so you have at look how many twos are there in three sixty. Oh, yeah, we can get two out, and we can get two lots of three out as well, so it would go in, and it's pretty obvious it would go in cos it, it's by ten [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] but, erm, some of the others are not so obvious, would divide in. Erm, now circular measure, did you actually measure a few round things and find pi? [Ruben:] Oh, I did, yeah, with you I did, yeah. [John:] Mm. Yeah. And you remember actually measuring it, and you know what [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] pi means, hopefully, it means something to you now. [Ruben:] Yeah, it measures the diameter, divided by the circumference. [John:] Which is [Ruben:] Circumference divided by [John:] Right which is bigger, circumference or diameter? [Ruben:] Circumference. [John:] Right, and what is pi, roughly to the nearest whole number? [Ruben:] Er, about three. [John:] About three [Ruben:] Yes. [John:] so it's got to be the long one, all the way round divided by how far across it is. Er things like that help if you're not sure, you're thinking oh no, especially in an exam [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] well was it the diameter divided by the circumference or was it the other way round, and you right them on paper and C over D, D over C, doesn't look any different, and you get locked into the problem and you just back off a bit and think of something real, like when you measured it [Ruben:] [cough] [John:] all the way round, that's about three times across and it's got to be that way round, the all the way round, over how far across. Relationships, similar figures, now we we looked at that, and we looked at scale, erm, and I think last time we were looking at things like though, not too long ago we were looking at price of council paper and this sort of stuff, which one shall we buy? Shall we buy that or buy that one [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] erm, are you happy with that? [Ruben:] Erm, [John:] Shall we have a look at it again? [Ruben:] we probably want to about work again. [John:] Right we'll have a look at that again, because once you've got it it's pretty straightforward and you can do it fairly quickly and you can do it very confidently [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] and if you haven't got it you could be there all day on the exam, urgh urgh, and also you're thinking I'll put it this way up, that one over that [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] okay, so we'll have a look at that and, obtaining money, well [LAUGHTER] [Ruben:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's easy, you just say I'm the Government, give me your money, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] have a poll tax, and let's have fifty per cent V A T, why, make it a hundred per cent and then it's easy for people to calculate. [Ruben:] Ha, yeah. [John:] If you go and buy a a T V for a hundred and fifty pounds they'd say thank you, a hundred and fifty pounds, plus VAT at a hundred per cent is another hundred and fifty to go to the government [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So, yeah. Now what about doing percentages? Like VAT an, are you okay on that? [Ruben:] Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. [John:] Good, good, because that that comes up all the time. Geometry. Lines angles and intersections, you were good at that, you were using your compass and doing things okay, and geometry of the circle, I, as I say tend tend to leave that with all the [Ruben:] I think I'm alright on actually. [John:] that entails, there's thirteen or so circle, transformations comes up quite a bit [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] and solids and nets, they tend to turn up, right, and what about sets? That's [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] statistics and probability. [Ruben:] I think I'm alright, because we have covered that all haven't we? With special probabilities, we've covered that [John:] Yeah. [Ruben:] well. [John:] So you can, what what I'm thinking of now is not so much, I've been thinking of stuff that you have done, and that if you sort of spend a little bit of, not much time, maybe ten minutes on each topic, just having a little look at it and finding a problem, this is the sort of problem I was doing a month or two ago, can I do this one? Can I remember how to get started in the main thing? Usually [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] if you get started you can, you palm, the pattern comes back and you follow it through and you get the answer, erm, need to do it every, maybe sort of about once a month or so, for each topic, don't let a topic go for about a month without you looking at it for ten minutes or so, and it will be surprising how that little bit of effort keeps it in your mind, so when you come to the exam you don't sit down there and go, oh, it's two months ago, I was doing everyone right, wonderful [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] now I just, can't think, can't remember [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] so it's to keep it in your mind, erm. We you [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] did quite a few graphs last time, and you're good on algebra, manipulating things, you're good on trig, vectors and matrices, how do you feel about those? [Ruben:] Er, [whispering] what's matrices []? Vector, oh dear. [John:] Erm, you're doing paper three and you do paper three, you do matrices, might even do determinants, it's not that clear about somewhere before, of course you know that. Erm, so scale, proportion, those are the few, few things brought in together, we'll st, we'll start off with just weight, now we'll find sort of weights of things, and then we'll make it more and more difficult [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] of less easy. [Ruben:] Mhm. [John:] Less easy as it goes along, so we've got, start by saying loaf of, what do you want to buy at the moment? [Ruben:] Er. [John:] Sold by weight. [Ruben:] Bar of chocolate. [John:] Bar of chocolate. Okay. Bar of chocolate, and what sort of size do they come in, sort of hundred gram [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] things. Well, right, erm so a three bars of chocolate, there's one in the hundred grams, [sound of tape recorder being struck] will cost you twenty eight pence. [Ruben:] So, one. [John:] A hundred grams, for one bar, costs you twenty eight pence, right, and then another one that's two hundred grams and it'll cost you fifty pence. You know what this is going to be [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] this is going to be easy he thinks, so you've made your mind up before you go to the shop, but unfortunately when you get there there's a, they've got these special hundred gram bars in because they, they haven't got a hundred, there's a big sticker on them saying ten per cent more chocolate, extra bit free, extra ten per cent free, on the smaller bars, so which ones do you buy? [Ruben:] How much does, that one extra ten per cent? [John:] This, yeah, the one hundred gram ones have an extra ten per cent added on now. [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] Think as an exercise, work out how each of the prices of each one, and you work out which which way round you're going to do it, and then talk to me about it as you're doing it. [Ruben:] Mm. First of all put, get that into grams, that's, that's a hundred and ten grams. [John:] Right. [Ruben:] So the first bar, one ten grams cost twenty eight P [John:] Right. [Ruben:] and the second one, the second bar's fifty P. So I wanna get that. [John:] So just write the second one out again, the second one you get. [Ruben:] It's two hundred grams. It's fifty P. [John:] So two hundred grams, fifty P, about erm a hundred and ten for twenty eight, which ones easier to work with? [Ruben:] The for fifty. [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] So now you find out how much for one gram. [John:] Right. So good rule is work out the easy one first, now they're going to be about the same, erm, otherwise they wouldn't be asking [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] you, it'd be obvious. Erm, so if you, if you do the easy one, and let's say it comes out to ten pence per gram, and you do the difficult one and it comes to a hundred and three pence per gram, right, or point nought one pence per gram [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] what's, what would that indicate to you? [Ruben:] Er, E, no point in whatever is a lot cheaper. [John:] Would it? [Ruben:] The first one, nought. [John:] I mean, look, okay, look at these two bars of chocolate that you've got, there re, looking at it they're going to be a about the same price, you're not going to find one ten times as dear as the other, are you? [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] So if one came out at ten pence per [Ruben:] Think your first one's probably got wrong, [John:] Oh, right, [Ruben:] one of them's wrong. [John:] Right, you, you think proba, this doesn't sort of seem right to me, and this is sort of developing your common sense approach to maths, which always goes on top of the actual maths, you've done the maths, yeah, you have a little look and it won't, does that make sense? No, whoops, I might have put one on top of the other when it should have been the other way round, so always have this check, er does the answer look, I mean, no, you can't always tell, but sometimes you can, sometimes you can think well those two are about the same price per gram, aren't they? [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Okay? So, work out those [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] and, say, explain the logic of it, why you're doing it the way you're doing it. [Ruben:] Well, if you, you want to find out how much per gram, will each bar so how much the twenty eight P, how much, yeah, how many grams, no, we know how many grams were there. How many pennies per gram? [John:] How many pennies per gram? Good. This is, this is the part where a lot of people get stuck. You can work it out, how many pennies per gram, or you can work it out, how many grams per penny, and it doesn't matter which way round you do it, as long as you know what the answer means, but which way do you prefer? [Ruben:] Mm. Er, how many pennies per gr [John:] How many pennies per gram, I would prefer that too, so just sort of choose one way and stick to it, I always do it that way, and then you're not confusing yourself doing it different ways. So how many pence would you pay for a gram on that first bar? [Ruben:] A hundred and ten divided by twenty eight. [John:] Alright, let's look at that, let me just have a little look down here [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] a hundred and ten divided by twenty eight, you've got this is pence per gram, a hundred and ten grams divided by twenty eight pence, the answer to this is grams per penny, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] it was a hundred and ten, wasn't it? Hopefully, [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] we've got a hundred grams divided by twenty eight pennies, the answer is whatever it comes to grams per divided by pennies, grams per penny, so that's a good check that you've got it the right way up, before you go and calculate it you just have a little look, what have I got here? I've got grams per penny. You got, and you can write it like that when you write it down, a hundred and ten grams divided by twenty eight P equals whatever the number is grams per penny. So that's a easy way to make sure that you, because that was the first thing you went for now, in the exam you might well put that down and think, oh, hang on, doesn't look right, perhaps it's the other way up [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] and then start losing confidence, wasting time, if you've got some check, like that, right, okay, so if you like to work that one out, you shouldn't have any problem with the, the second bar, if you can do the first one. [Ruben:] Three point nine. Three point nine two. Three point nine grams per penny. [John:] That's a leave the three point nine two, because they might be, they may be close, they may not. Okay? [Ruben:] The other one's a hundred divided by fifty. [John:] Mhm. [Ruben:] Four. [John:] Right, so there's not much, this looks as if these answers could both be correct because [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] they're about the same, so when the hundred gram bar has got the extra ten per cent it's it's just just makes it the better bargain, er, they're not losing much on that cos they save on the wrapping, so it probably costs them the same [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] they do it that way. Now what happens if it gets a bit more complicated, and all it, another way another way of checking this, erm, what would happen [Ruben:] To buy. [John:] what would happen if you, let's have a look at G, depends on, what would happen if you were still paying fifty pence, but they gave you four hundred, four hundred grams of chocolate, well you get eight grams per penny, this is another test that you got it the right way up, if it were still only two hundred grams, but you payed more money for it, let's say they charged you a pound, I think you'd get less grams per penny. So good ways of checking that you got it right, and then you can go on comfortably with, let's have a look at erm this time you're buying a block of gold, er [Ruben:] As you do, yeah. [John:] which reminds me, yeah, the last block I got I'll have to take it back, it was the wrong colour, we've got some silver got some, got [Ruben:] Yeah, I hate it when that happens, yeah. [John:] some silver gold. [Ruben:] Ah, it's terrible, innit? Did you have your receipt? [John:] No. [Ruben:] Oh. That's awful, that is. [John:] I went to the, I went to the gold shop when they were shut actually,w to get it in the first place [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] that's why they wouldn't give me my me give me the money back [Ruben:] Ah, of course, yeah. [John:] So here's one lump of gold, okay, and that's erm how big shall we make it? [Ruben:] That big. [John:] A metre? Going to need a truck to carry this home. [Ruben:] Yeah, you never have any negatives, you. [John:] Mm. [Ruben:] Negative metre. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Negative metres, okay. So it's a a cube one [Ruben:] Okay. [John:] metre in all directions, [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] and they're selling them off, gold, gold prices have dropped, you can get a metre, a cubic metre of gold for, say, a million pounds? [Ruben:] Yeah. Twenty P and I'll pay it off. [John:] For a million pounds, one million. Now there's somebody else next door selling off,se se there is a surplus [Ruben:] Can go next door to us. [John:] is a surplus of goods, about a ton in good wool, there's a surplus of gold at the moment of course, [Ruben:] Ah of course. [John:] all selling them off like their payin paying you to take it away. [Ruben:] Yeah. A million pounds, I'd call that paying him. [John:] Now this bloke, this bloke unfortunately measures it in centimetres, he would, wouldn't he, it could have been worse, he could [Ruben:] Yeah, oh yeah. [John:] have measured it in inches or something [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] erm, and erm he sells smaller bits, but they are cheaper, obviously, and his are eighty centimetre cube of gold, okay? And he says, sells his off at a quarter of a million, per cube. [Ruben:] Mm. [John:] Which one's cheaper, which one would you go for? How do you work it out? [Ruben:] I'd go for, I'd go for him, cos I don't like this centimetre part. Okay. So for one metre cubed, [John:] You'd this start a new page and do all your of a page. [Ruben:] One metre cubed, costs one million pounds, there it is, eighty centimetres, I'm starting one to get, change numbers, such like that to metres, or at centimetres. [John:] Good so that's the first thing you've got to do, get these into the same sort of units this is a sort of variation where we had grams and kilograms and things. [Ruben:] Erm, thinking ahead, I'd probably turn that to metres. [John:] Okay. [Ruben:] Three point eight. [John:] Right. [Ruben:] It's one metre cubed, it's one point eight, erm, er, but, don't know actually, I'd rather have it in centimetres. [John:] Hmm, so would I. [Ruben:] Yeah. [John:] Any day. Two re, why why would you rather have it in centimetres? [Ruben:] Erm, then I can, well because dividing point eight by, that'll make it a strange figure [John:] Right. So if you can avoid the decimals and avoid the fractions and [recording ends]

[speaker001:] So now we're being recorded. All very exciting I hope they can hear us. So if we can have some good examples of the English language please. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay. Up to now we've been covering one part of the neural networks. Erm in fact we only cov covered one part of one network in fact. Er that a form of continuous network er because it has continuous weights. Vari lot of variations in different sorts of neural networks. We've had different sorts of weights difference sorts of inputs and learning rules as you'll see. What I want to cover now is a type of network that we study a lot in the computer architecture group and I've been working with for years and years and years erm called the N tuple network. N tuple method. It in neural network terms is a binary weighted. It means that the weights are typically binary in the network. So you can also use lots of different learning rules compar compared to the er networks you see. Quite different. However even though it is a neural network however, erm you can see it is a pack recognition technique and in fact it was first developed in nineteen fifty nine as the N tuple method er by some chap Browning erm I think cos I've never heard of Browning since that paper. So what I want to do is to introduce the basic idea of what the learning does and how the network sort of works underne underneath it. And then show how you represent it as a neural network and the various flavours of it. Straight off why it's more important or why it's important to tell you about it is because it's a very fast network. All the other networks we see, I think the networks we've seen not many of them are slow in learning. And they're slow in learning because they optimize er using this learning rule. Exactly where the surface has to be. The N tuple method takes a totally different approach as you will see. So how's it work? Well it's extremely simple and if you're any good at digital electronics it should be an absolute doddle for you. Cos in fact it's erm can be seen er as creating functions in digital circuits. In very simple terms. One of the reasons for its speed comes from that. So we've got some examples here of some patterns that we want to learn using the N tuple method and tuple and tuple. Erm example there of T. You'll recognize the T. Now the first thing I should remind you is of course that to recognize anything we must have something to compare it against. Okay to say how similar it is to one thing to another. I've talked to you about that before. But anyway we're just picking one particular example here and we've got a T. And it's a very small er example of a pattern. It's got three bytery pixels and the first thing you notice is the pixels are binary. They're not continuous. And in the N tuple method as it's first defined the er pixels were only binary. It's called the N tuple method is because the first thing we do is to take that image and break it up into a set of tuples each of N in size. Okay? And what we've got N here we've selected as three and so we've broken it up into three tuples because another rule in the method even though it can be broken is that each pixel can only go into one tuple. So we've got the first one here F one second one here F two and the third one F three. Okay. Once you've done that what we actually do is to look for for sub-patterns in those tuples. Of course we've got the training and testing the same as in normal networks. The training is of recording which sub-patterns occur or which patterns occur within the tuple. Testing consists of identifying which of the known ones which of the known er sub-patterns er occur in my new input. Let's just see an example of that. F one here is this sub-pattern here for this training example. We've got not X one not X two not X three and I think on your examples you've actually got them labelled. Erm which means that each one of those is off. The logical er function there determinately simple. F two the second tuple X four is on X five is off X six is on and the same sort of thing for F three there. So what we've done is we've applied a simple learning rule which just says remember the sub-patterns. Terribly trivial. And you wonder how it would ever be any good at anything. So that's what I hope to show you. Once you've trained it like that to test it on this pattern all you do is take the pack into the system and see whether you can [speaker001:] [sneeze] [speaker002:] these tuples again. So here we'd actually have a match of all three saying that we've recognized it to a level three. Okay erm on that particular pattern. Now as it stands that's all it knows. And if if this was covered up here I E this this black dot was say made white let's say, we'd only have two matching and if that was made white we'd have one and then if we changed at all that top row we'd have zero matching. So what we can what it effectively does is count sort of sub-patterns within the whole pattern and how well we're recognizing those. It's rather like what we talked about right at the beginning we talked about picking out features from our image such as the the width the height er the grey area or whatever of the image. Now in that case we had to select those measures er by knowledge of the problem. A tuple is a very similar sort of thing. It it's a it's a measurement area here for example, but all it does is record the binary pattern er under that area. We've actually taken three measurement areas. One here one in the middle one at the bottom. The important thing is that they're very arbitrary. You you don't have to know anything about the problem to specify them. Where we're taking measures from the image er such as height width etcetera we'd have to know a lot about the image to take those measures. The important thing about the N tuple method is that you don't make any assumptions about the image apart from it's just a set of binary digits. Okay. Which is one of the the strengths of course for that sort of thing. So what we're doing effectively is seeing how many features we recognize in our in our er example image. Generalization which we'll come to a lot later as well in a lot more depth er is very important in these systems. I may want to recognize this pattern as well as that pattern. But I may want to recognize that just as well as that. I E at the moment this pattern fed into these functions here gives us three matching functions. If we add an extra term to the bottom of here representing this extra changed pattern okay? this pattern will match just as well as that er our functions. I E this one gives us a a value of three. So really that's it as far as the N tuple method is. You're just measuring sub sub-patterns of the image counting how many of those match in training in testing and that count is a measure of similarity. You can think about it and it's very useful to think about it as a as a distance measure in a sense. It's a very complex distance measure compared to the ones we've looked at. But it is a distance measure. Cos this whole function plus the summation of of how many terms match is a measure of how similar our unknown pattern is er to all our known ones that we've trained the system on. But it's rather strange and er certainly not distance measure but it is a it is a measure. And of course the whole thing is very easy to compute. Really after the N tuple method was defined in nineteen fifty nine erm the next person who came along that did anything with it was Igor Alexander supervisor that's why I work on this area. Got a lot to blame to blame for I must admit. What he did he saw he saw the method and saw well this is quite neat. We can actually implement it very efficiently in hardware. We can made a very fast recognition system out of it. What we've got here is a very conventional piece of logic that implements what I've talked about. We've got two tuples so I've given the example again we've got two tuples of two two one here and one here. We'd have other ones as well but just to show this particular example just to keep it small I'll make it small. We then have binary decoders. And as you know binary decoders list all the possible states of the input erm conditions. So here we've got binary inputs to there must be two to the two outputs I E four possible combinations. And here's the truth table for this particular decoder. Okay? And these you should remember are basically the terms I gave on the previous page. Same as these terms here except. So the decoders are actually listing all the possible terms of the inputs. The memory cells here of course recalled whether that term occurred during training. So I present this pattern I push it through the decoders and I see that that line's maybe is active so I put a one in there to record the fact that that logic term er occurred. And similarly for this er decoder down here this section down here. So training is very easy to implement like that with a few memory cells and a binary decoder. Recall is similarly very simple you present the input pattern pushing through the decoders and instead of reading from these memory locations, sorry [LAUGHTER] writing [] from these memory locations, you read from them okay. So in this case you get this R would be activated and we access this location here which would be summed into summation to give us our response of well two maybe in this particular case. And if it actually recognized it. Okay so we can implement it like that in hardware but the major benefit and this was done sort of like sixties sort of sixty nine seventy was to realize that you could put it into a little package like that which of course is a random access memory. The tuple lines are the address inputs into your random access memory. The memory is just the memory the data input stores the one for the address location and the data output stores the output. And you've gotta rewrite signal to tell you whether it's gotta learn or to recognize the image. Now here's an interesting story about this er. Igor Alexander who who as I say recognizes started to build these these little cells these things before random access memories came along. He called them erm, what were they something it was. Something strange like that. But the point was that random access memories never existed when he first did this. And he went to Plessey and asked Plessey if he could implement these little functions on micro circuits. I E sort of er the L S I type circuits. And he got some packages made but unfortunately he didn't patent the idea [LAUGHTER] because what he actually was made what he actually made was random access memories. Erm and had he had he patented it or I don't know about exactly the timing, he might have made himself an absolute fortune. Not that he was interested particularly but er it's an interesting story. Erm he did that when he was at erm er now where was it Kent, University of Kent. Just the strange things that again you know it's it's having an idea and recognizing it that it would be useful. It's something that er not always happens like in the back propagation learning and people who invented it didn't realize it was that that important and didn't advertise it. He invented the random access memory but er didn't tell anybody about it. Never mind. Okay so we can implement this sort of thing in er using random access memories. And as such of course in run load you can make this thing go in the order of tens of nanoseconds probably less to recognize an image. But as I say every year er if I ever find an application where you need this sort of speed I'd like to hear about it. Erm there's very few applications that need to recognize anything in that amount of time. The only small idea that I have and I don't think it's particularly practical is for a sort of oscilloscope triggering mechanism often, which is in fact one you get in logic analysers anyway. But er often you might want to trigger off a particular pattern coming on the trace. And you might have to you have to do that in in the order of nanoseconds. But of course something like this would do that but you have to allow for the jitter as well and this sort of algorithm might might be the way to do it. I think there are a few others but not many. So if you implement it totally in parallel you can go very fast. Typically we don't we implement it in software and even in software it's very quick because computers are ideally set up to implement these sort of systems. So it's great. It's the right sort of technology. We've got the right sort of computer technology to implement these erm we can move out from there into the neural network world. And of course it's very hard to see this as a neural network. So we could ask ourselves, well very nice but where does neural networks fit in. Fact recognition method it's a piece of hardware and one of the things that's clear actually is that er the Alexander worlds and all sorts of other people that were working on this don't look at them in this way and they look at these as I say ram blocks. Erm as a result they call them weightless networks which we actually hate because they're not weightless. If you actually represent them like I've just shown you. You can change the diagram very slightly and they look just like the normal neural network. In fact it's very much like the higher order networks that I talked about in the last lecture er I think it was the last lecture but one, and the networks which pre-process the data before they're presented to the network by some higher function. What you have here is basically a single neuron with a of weights, the weights on the circles here are the binary elements in the random access memory. The weight you know the storage locations. The decoders here are just non-linear functions, they're just binary non-linear functions they happen to be but they're non-linear. Now if we recognize it as that we immediately see that the method is, well why the method works in neural network terms. If you remember a single network is a linear classifier and can't solve non-linearly sol soluble problems. To get round that one of the approaches that I talked about was to pre-process the data. I E or formalize it in some way. Force it through some some functions. So that's what these decoders do. Er such that it is hopefully linearly separable. Now one of the problems over all that is to say, well is it? How can can it always solve the problem? Well it can't it doesn't always solve the problem. In fact recognition you don't have to guarantee that you will solve the problem. Because even though this is a this is a linear network it can be effectively seen as a network effectively with a unit here and a unit here and maybe one weight. If it was seen like that you can't actually solve a erm a linear problem which occurs between these two sets of units. You will see that in a second but there are limitations with it. Erm which are okay for fact recognition but not so good for more sorts of analysis problems. But we'll see that in a second. Okay so you can view it as a as a single neuron with some er decoders. The other important thing is that the learning rule is not a graded descent learning rule or a searching lear learning rule as we've seen before. Remember what we do with the network normally is to present an input get an output see if it's correct. If it is correct we don't do anything and if it isn't correct we use that error to adjust the weights. Now here we've got binary weights. So it's either setting or not setting the weights and in the N tuple rule all we do is in fact set the weights. So we present the pattern. We could test it to see if we get an output, we don't but we could do, there's no need because all we have to do in effect is just set the weights of the decoders that are actually coming out. But the decoders that are the decoder lines that are active. [speaker001:] [sneeze] [speaker002:] Sometimes that learning method is called the Hebean learning rule erm because it's the sort of thing you find in animals erm Donald a famous what was he a famous neurophysiologist. He came up with this how neurons actually did learn. By the way neuron I haven't said that but the the learning rule is n is not biologically plausible. And a lot of learning rules aren't biologically plausible. Erm this happens to be as well. as an aside. For a multi class problem where you've got more than one neuron more than one class you might display the system like this. It's a slightly different way of looking at neuron networks than perhaps we've seen before. Because we have this matrix here. But what we've effectively got is a neuron here a neuron here and a neuron here and we've got our three classes. And we pre-process the data as I say commonly for all the neurons before we present it to our three neurons. Testing for these sort of systems erm we had to decide which of these responses is best. Well as you see we can count the number of terms that actually match from our training sets. So this example here we might find that that matches that matches we get a response of two from here and we get a response less than the response from here and the same response from this. We have to make a decision on those responses just like in a normal network. Now we could just take the pattern of responses out of there as being some classes. You can do what you like really. Erm but the easiest one is obviously to take the maximum responding output from here as er an indication of which class is belongs to. Okay so that's er a very straightforward sort of thing. The other thing you should remember is that there are all sorts of confidences that you can apply to these sort of things. That if we had a response here of two one zeros I've scored at the bottom of that, we've actually got two of the logic terms matching from this particular class. One of the logic terms matching from this particular class and none for this particular class. How well how how sure are we of this result here. Well we're too sure aren't we. We're saying that we've got two of our our particular sub-patterns matching. Cos we've got a response of two. Here we've got one. So we might say, Well our overall confidence is two but our relative confidence which is saying how different it is from everything else is only one. And you actually do get two types of of of threshold erm confidence in these sort of systems. There's this absolute confidence which is the absolute output of maximum responding neuron. Then there's the relative confidence which is to say how much stronger is that particular output compared to any others. And both of those factors can be important in judging how the system's doing. Okay that basic architecture is if you want the vanilla sort of architecture for the entrical stuff. Erm there are a lot of variations upon it which er make it interesting and we'll see later also how the thing actually does work and all its properties. The variations to the system come in a number of forms. First of all that the input can be grey scale of course instead of binary. So how does the system cope with that. Well we've only got binary decoders here so we have to cope we have to change something. maybe we change the decoders maybe we change the inputs. There's a whole section of how we do that. These this array of weights is binary. Well we could have continuous weights in that particular array possibly. What what benefit would that do for us. Of course it it screws up the implementation er if you want to implement in hardware and these aren't binary weights it starts to make the the circuitry a bit more complicated. The third thing is in this summation function, why do we use a summation function. I mean in the neural network terms we just use a summation function. But we should ask ourselves why are we using that and what's the effect of using other functions in there such as maybe an and or an or where we or the responses out of here or we an them. Because now we've got a binary network we can do different things. It's the equivalent to in a neural network saying instead of saying the weights times the inputs all summed, we'll take each weight times its input and multiply it with each weight times its input so we do the product of all the inputs times the weights. Erm what effect would that have. And that's interesting to see in pattern recognition terms. Really that brings out one of the benefits of of using this sort of network because you can analyse it. You can look right into it and you can actually find out the behaviour of it fully. You can see how well it generalizes you can see how well you can implement it. Which is nice. Okay I think you've got a corrected slide here. Erm this is my attempt at a formal definition of the network. Erm it helps you if you want to work out exactly how it works and work through it. This is not the corrected version you've got the corrected version. Erm and through this we can see where the different variations come in the system and introduce one or two other ones. What we've got also is indicated a bit of how we might process it if we implement this sort of thing. The sort of implementations we've got. We've got an input pattern. Okay we've got er example P, er sorry class example P plus R. We've got a T vector which is basically after you've taken the input pattern just after you've tupled it. So we take our input pattern and we produce a vector here called T which we then present to this lot here. We've got a weight array which is the normal sort of thing we'd have. Training is a simple p simple algorithm this is how you would actually implement it properly. I mean it introduces a an interesting thing. What we'd effectively do which code, what effectively do of course is we we trundle down here checking to see if any of these are set to one and if they are set to one we set a weight in memory. Now if you're gonna be writing in software you don't actually look at it like that maybe and it is also a useful way to generalize these decoders. What these decoders actually do is take the input and assign one of four particular states. Where a state is whatever the particular sub-pattern is on here. Now if you view the output of these as a state number you can generalize the the behaviour of these decoders and you can generalize them to anything you want. It could be an X square function that produces a number which indicates which line you should activate. That's really how this is written down here. You go through all the example patterns. For each the example pattern you compute er this input tuple vector. So we take our example we put it through these decoders. Before we do this we have to apply a mapping function M. The mapping function is important because as I say these wires are connected to these pixels here. I must know exactly how those are connected in which order. But as we'll see later the different sort of connections that you have er affect the behaviour of it. Er if you get the connections wrong er sometimes it won't recognize it. So this mapping function is quite crucial in in the operation. So you map it onto the tuple array and then all the tuples so you take each tuple in in order. You set the weight one sorry the weight, it's probably it's it's hard to explain it like that, but you apply the decoder function F here F bracket to the particular tuple and you get a state J. So you set the weight for that particular state. W R I J, there's a J there there's a J there okay. So effectively we take our input pattern we take our tuple we force is through our function here we get our value out sum value of of the tuple and that's J and that indicates within the weight array that we're looking at which weight we actually set. Funny way of looking at it I know but it's sort of to give you an idea of how how the different ways you can actually do this this mechanism and brings out the er variations. Lots of ways of writing it. Testing is the same sort of thing but this brings out the different functions that I talked about either summations or or products. Do the same sort of thing you need a response array first for the result. In this case we've got an unknown pattern. We do exactly the same mapping our input pattern onto our tuples. We then apply our tupling function F to get J and then we sum for all tuples over all states the weights times the inputs. A very strange way of writing it again but basically it comes down to the following. As I say we take our tuple push it through our decoder and get our state here J that's the easy bit. But why write it like this. Cos what we're doing is going for each N tuple we go through each set of states here. Mathematically it's very difficult to do this. You could use a chronic adulter to actually write it a bit easier but er I didn't know about that when I wrote these slides many many years ago and it's carried on since. Er we write it like this. Erm so you actually scan down here and where you, which is abetting the state act from here, is one you set the weight in the memory. A horrible way of explaining it but er it's some attempt at some some preciseness. Okay. As I say the variations on the system are alteration of this summation in here to a product or. And having that mathematical description allows us to change that from summing all the N tuple to doing a product of all N tuple. What that basically means again is that for this particular blank here that we're look at okay, the state value U might be one the weight might be one okay and we get that out of that cos we're just going through all these here and seeing which one's going to be one. We then instead of adding those particular outputs we don't we we sum them. Don't forget that each of these decoders only produces one ac active output line okay. So in this case this one might be active corresponding to that weight there that that makes that whole ban bank set to one. This bank might be set to one as well or zero and then you sum those together which is that summation there, or you can do a product there's a product there. Basically a product is equivalent to an and. A product is a continuous form of an and. We'll see what what the benefit of of that is in generalizationship in a second. What I've put down here is the way you alter that simple description to give you a continuous weight rather than a binary weight. During training what we do in the training algorithm is is of course set a a link here or a weight here to one if the output of my decoder is set to one. Okay that's easy. In a continuous form instead of just setting a binary link here we actually count the number of times this particular line is set to one. Basically what we're doing is to count during training how often a sub-pattern a tuple has a particular state has a particular pattern. And that's very useful in sort of more statistical type problems er as we'll see later. So basically what that's done is introduce the variations of the letters. I'm gonna go through each one of those sort of variations in a bit more depth er later on. But er I hope to give you an idea for that.... So let's have a look at it and see how it works. I mean the basic mechanism is very simple as I say. First thing we want to have a look at is how it generalizes. As I say the method has got to recognize things it hasn't seen before. Like with all neural networks. Now normal neural networks perform generalizations by, okay having some space yep? having our examples here and our examples here and maybe setting a line in between that. Such that any new example one down here can be seen as being belonging to that set okay? Now thinking about what we've just seen how does that relate to that. Very difficult. We've got our single layer network as we know so we take all our inputs we push them through the decoders and we've got our single layer after that. But there is a straight line in there somewhere. But we do this pre-processing. Now the pre-processing makes the patterns makes the thing linearly soluble. So if we add an example using the N tuple technique of the exclusive or problem for example er like that we want to see how the network would solve that okay in terms of a single layer network. [recording ends]

[Helen:] Right shall we [Andy:] Yes start where we the last meeting I guess. [Helen:] Right the last meeting was nineteenth of January last Wednesday. Present were Mark Bob John Andrew. No apologies received. Erm Mark facilitating. And we decided not to record the meeting because we had objections which is fair enough. Coordinator's report. Steve reported on Heworth Green car park demo. He'd been asked to get in touch with Mike for advice. Erm and Mike told us that new reports commi commissioned by the City Council and the new owners claimed there is no danger. Mike said that the chemicals involved were mobile as well as being potent and their ability is a potential explanation for lack of results in the Council's study. There is legitimate concern that the meeting decided that little could be done at this time we might be able to contribute to the campaign at a later stage. Leaflets campa campaign were distributed. Erm to be discussed at a future meeting for Steve to speak on the subject. That's for now. It's being. Erm Secretary's report. The stall is booked for Saturday for the energy conservation bill campaign. Erm and I I've requested an application form from the City Council for a demonstration for the big box pile up on the twelfth of February. Letters have been sent to Hugh about both of these campaigns. The police shelter erm both sets of student greens and Dick and your own candidate erm asking for their help with the big box pile up. Correspondence had been received from the green machine and the secretary was asked to write for more information because we weren't convinced with exactly what they were doing. Erm we'd also received information from the North Yorkshire European erm I've got M Y E C O and I can't remember what the C O stands for. Limited which seemed mostly to involve advertising and but I'd written off and told them their candidate was. We'd received a campaigns update from central office and had registered the big box pile up campaign with that campaign coordinator. We decided to buy twenty letter box stickers which I am to send for and give you the cheque to this end. Treasurer reported that there was no change and then there suddenly was because Andy demanded to be paid for production expenses. So we all got very excited because it was the first money we'd spent for a long time. Membership secretary circulated the latest membership list. John agreed to check that there aren't any more problems with our membership with John at central office just to make sure that we're all sorted. Complications coordinator distributed the postcards that he'd he printed and the S T V voting regulations he was requested to bring on. is on the way. No matters arose from previous minutes. The energy conservation bill. agreed to take to set up and take down the stall and be there for most of the day. Andy agreed to go and help set up and Bob likewise. Mark said he'd get along later on when he could. We decided to use our green ballot box that we made and painted for the Maastricht campaign for people to post their cards into so that we can count them at the end and post them all together. Erm hopefully Terry reported that he'd received a reply to his initial letter about the energy conservation bill. Confusing facilities. Mark shortly to get a L C two computer and suggested that it may be green party especially if we could purchase a suitable printer. petty cash and major postage. Ten pounds was given to forty five Broadway and a donation towards the phone bill. As the secretary's doing a lot of postal work Helen to keep the petty cash tin and present present the book at each meeting for inspection. She was also given a cheque for nineteen pounds to buy a hundred second cla second class stamps for the postcard campaign. The secretary then gave a briefing on the big box pile up campaign. He explained that it was something like new party policy on homelessness and would involve a march into town piling up lots of boxes and collecting signatures on a Valentine type partition to give to Hugh. Under any other business Humphrey challenged ha reported that he had challenged British Nuclear advertising campaign in which they claimed they're going to cause pollution. Erm unfortunately the advertising standards didn't uphold uphold the complaint but at least we made a point. Tasks to carry forward to the next meeting. Helen had to write to Penny erm voicing the all green party's objection to the supporters scheme that the National Party are putting out. Helen was about conference accommodation and John agreed to write to Jean complaining about the miserable letter they're sending out to people who've lapsed. Items to carry on to future agendas included the MacDonalds and affiliation and working with other groups. And the meeting adjourned at nine thirty two. [Andy:] Okay does anybody object to those minutes or are we willing to pass them as a pretty accurate account [Helen:] Well we need to go to the reports first. [Andy:] Yeah? [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. He has an officer's report. Yeah. [Helen:] Oh right. No you're right we agreed. The matters arising holds you off the reports. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Right oh. [Andy:] So any objections to those minutes? [Ste (yes, Ste):] No. [Andy:] Right. the secretary's minutes. [Helen:] Ha you haven't seen the spelling. [Andy:] Coordinator's report please before we have to spell check the minutes. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Well staggeringly enough I don't actually have one this week because the only things I have to report are covered at in under energy conservation bill. So unless er anyone has any direct questions for me from the meeting erm [Helen:] Erm can you confirm that we're doing the Green World stuffing? [Ste (yes, Ste):] Ah excellent yes yes. That is erm one piece of good news. We've confirmed that we're doing er the mail-out for Green World five. That'll be the weekend of the twelfth thirteenth of February. Erm the pay will be slightly less than last time. Erm but there we go er and everything's under way for that. And erm it should be reasonably light work. We we're keeping it under the first weight bracket er for for cost reasons. And there's there will be about four thousand to do. So same same as before, we'll be coordinating it from forty five Broadway and we'll erm be open house for for volunteers and I'll draw up a rota. Erm we'll we'll go for a couple of social eve evenings but probably the bulk of it will be during the day the er Saturday and Sunday. And that as far as I know is that. [Neil:] That's on behalf of the national party it is? [Ste (yes, Ste):] That's right. That Green World is the new national newsletter which took over from news and erm because I'm on the editorial board [Neil:] Right. [Ste (yes, Ste):] and I'm the mail-out coordinator we've we've so far mailed out all but one of the of the new magazines and er we didn't do the last one but we're we're scheduling up for doing this one. And it's the sort of [Neil:] I wondered how I wondered how there was a personal message on one of my er Green World. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] What we tend to do we get bored after the first two thousand [LAUGHTER] and we start writing people letters []. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Absolutely yeah. Erm and it's a birthday issue and and a quite an important one for setting up for the Euros and the mail action. So there'll be the Great World six will come out just long enough after the May elections to record our victories er as stop press. So er [LAUGHTER] yes []. So er this this one is setting everybody up for May and starting the the process for erm for June the the Euros and well to a certain extent we're building up already for any any editor content. [Neil:] So so issue six will come out between the local and the Euro elections? [Ste (yes, Ste):] That's right. Just after the er soon after the May elections as as physically possible [Neil:] Mm. [Ste (yes, Ste):] with the deadline printing deadlines. [Andy:] Do we have a secretary's report? [Helen:] We do. Erm I haven't heard anything yet erm about the demo form from the erm City Council so I'll give them a boot up their backside because it'll be a week since he said he put it in the post so. So erm so I can't confirm booking for that yet but we do have one more meeting before the big box pile up so not to worry. I wrote to Green Machine. No reply as yet. Erm I ordered and received the letter box stickers this morning. So if anybody wants to buy a letter box sticker now's your chance. The actual size they said. How much did we say in the newsletter? [Andy:] Well we didn't. Erm [Helen:] Oh didn't we? [Andy:] I might be able to find it but I didn't put no I can't [Helen:] Didn't we put it in? [Andy:] No because we didn't have them then and there's another newsletter shortly so [Helen:] Oh alright. Erm [Andy:] And there [LAUGHTER] wasn't space []. [Helen:] Erm erm erm okay in that case erm think of a number. [Neil:] No we paid what one pound fifty for [Helen:] We paid ten P each well ten P each plus fifteen P postage. [Andy:] Probably somewhere in the region of twenty P each. [Ste (yes, Ste):] No exactly [LAUGHTER] fiftee fifteen P []. [Andy:] Fifteen P mm. Yeah but if we charge twenty P each we're actually making a profit selling them. [Ste (yes, Ste):] That was the idea. I [Helen:] Well the people who make them sell them for forty P er twenty P rather. [Ste (yes, Ste):] I hereby move that we do similarly. [Helen:] Lets. [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] Stack them high and sell them cheap. [Andy:] Erm oh we'll they're going to go for twenty P plus cost of the stamped addressed return envelope [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] friend. [Helen:] Which is slightly more [LAUGHTER] than some people [] do with their money. Erm... where are we. Oh yes orders to receive letter box stickers. Erm... Lisa is that I'm not quite sure, from the York University student rooms, is in to help us with the big box pile up. And having spoken to her on Saturday when she came along to the energy conservation stall I intend to invite her if it's alright with the meeting to our next meeting which is on the ninth of February to discuss how the Greens can help how the University Greens can help us with that demonstration. And perhaps forge a link you never know. So if that's that's approved I'll give that a tick and so we can bring it up again later. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Great. [Helen:] Erm I've also received information on conference accommodation and on the billboards but I've billed those as separate items so that you don't listen to me half off all evening. That's it. [Andy:] Okay. Do we have a treasurer's report in absent here? [Helen:] No he's absent. He's. But I do have something from the membership secretary. [Andy:] Right so that's other officers. membership secretary. [Helen:] Well the membership secretary, if I can remember how to spell it, erm mm has indeed been in touch with erm John who very kindly sent us a free copy of erm their version of our membership list. Which is how we found out that one that we have a new member erm Sally who I'll add on to my list and er send a newsletter to. Also Joan Ian and Mrs Green erm we all thought they joined locally and the national party have no record. It's the same old story. Erm John has suggested that we send their membership on and then that's definitely it. We're now all up to date and we agree with head office and we can take it from here. [Andy:] Erm one minor alteration on that point. I've got a membership card for possibly er previous [Helen:] From January. [Andy:] sort of yeah from the end of January's er [Helen:] You've got six month's free membership don't worry about it. [Andy:] Yeah I wasn't worrying about the six month's free membership. But it does put in rather six months out of phase with the local membership so at least [Helen:] Well John sorted that he's brought you up to date now. [Andy:] Mm. [Helen:] Because you know it's the same thing. [Andy:] I was gonna give the er local party er [LAUGHTER] it'll be sixteen months [] worth local membership [Helen:] If you want to give us a donation that's entirely welcome. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Perfectly acceptable. [Andy:] I'll buy some. I've already bought some [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] yeah. [] [Andy:] bought some more er [Helen:] So what Joe wanted the meeting to decide is should we ask Mark to send off a cheque for those three people? [Ste (yes, Ste):] I think that's the only way to proceed to to sort out this tangle once and for all. [Andy:] Yeah. You see apart from anything else if those people joined through us then we we must make good. [Ste (yes, Ste):] And we fixed it. The system's fixed so. [Andy:] Yeah. It it has to be fixed by either us or the national party. We can't ask those people for money if they've already joined once. [Helen:] Okay. Erm I'll get Mark to send a cheque off when he gets back from.... [Andy:] Okay is that oh I suppose as as another officer I can er tell you that the the newsletter has indeed been finished and gone out. Erm I would like to apologize on behalf of myself and my proof reading team for the fact that two calls for nominations that erm that are in this newsletter don't actually appear to have closing dates on them. [Neil:] Oh god. [Andy:] Which is a bit of a stupendous cock-up from us [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] At least on my part I'm, if I had my engineer's hat on I'd er blame the proof reading team as well. But er I suppose really I er [Helen:] Well you forgot to read it because you threw coffee over me. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] I suppose the blame is at least almost entirely mine. If not entirely mine. So I I would like to ask the meeting whether erm [LAUGHTER] I suppose [] technically for advice on this topic. think we can get away with putting out another newsletter on the seventh of February with a ballot in it anyway for these two things even though we didn't [Helen:] Yes. [Bob:] I think so. I I mean er I doubt whether we'll we'll have a full slate in February anyway so I mean they'll probably be the option for people to come in later and we'll probably end up co-opting people later and er I think we should [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah alright. [Andy:] I'm pleased you think that because it gets me off the hook now. I think that because I don't think people wait until the deadline to er respond anyway. Helen? [Helen:] Erm I think technically we're actually constitutional because it doesn't say anything in the constitution about us having to publish the deadline. It just says that we have to make the the call for nominations so long before we put out the selection ballot. So they can do it from they can work it out for [LAUGHTER] themselves actually []. briefing. [Andy:] Ah so so it's alright. So everybody who got the newsletter when they read it should have thought, Aha best look up [Helen:] I'm sorry [Andy:] my copy of the [LAUGHTER] constitution [] that I filed away so neatly when I received that months ago. [Helen:] I think perhaps an apology and erm and an in er the next newsletter might be appropriate for. Otherwise we'll phoning us up and complaining. [Bob:] You'll probably be ringing people up anyway trying to get them to understand. [Helen:] Yes I agree entirely. I don't think people are going to be disappointed if they miss out. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Great. Otherwise I if it's appropriate I'll say it looks like a great newsletter. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] Right on the newsletter front the other thing is the next newsletter we said would go in the post by the seventh of February. Which is actually two days before we next have a meeting which means I'm gonna have to slap another one together in a big hurry. So I'm collecting things to go in it. Er those things should include well something about the box erm next next day or whatever I can find. Details of about where and when. I've got a thing from Steve about erm planning permission or application for Sizewell C that I didn't have room for in this newsletter. [speaker005:] Right. [Andy:] He wrote it and handed it to me for this newsletter and I ran out of space. Could put the green councillors ten reasons to be one in I suppose. [Helen:] Yes [Ste (yes, Ste):] Oh yes definitely. [Andy:] Anything to fit. It will depend what the space situation is. A nice grovel can go in. Advert for the letter box sticker. want stuff or is it contact through the office to. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yes. [Andy:] Unless you have unless you have supplied a specific date. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Erm if you like I can provide a a specific spiel. Seeing as it is the you know the birthday edition. It will it is quite nice er make a thing of it. [Andy:] I think also if we could have some sort of timings when people could turn up. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yes sure. Okay I'll knock those up and I'll have to run that by my household. [Andy:] Mm yeah. [Ste (yes, Ste):] So when do you need those by then? [Andy:] Erm er middle of next week I suppose roughly. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Okay. [Andy:] I would say next meeting is at it's the one time we're going to have one. Erm and do we have anything else to go in this newsletter?... [Helen:] Erm [Andy:] I could keep one in the green Eurobonds advert. [Helen:] Yep [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. [Helen:] certainly. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Fine idea.... [Andy:] And if anybody thinks of any more diary dates or anything. [Helen:] Yeah I'll let you know. I think there might be a I've got one announcement you can put from that. [Andy:] Again if I collect more material than I have to use no problem. Got an item on media watch there did anyone notice that the Green Party was actually mentioned in the Guardian today? [speaker005:] No. [Andy:] Quite a celebration. [Helen:] Wow. [Andy:] About two lines commenting on the Government's erm you know growing strategy. Documents that they put out yesterday. [Helen:] Mm the most we've had for months. [Andy:] I know absolutely. [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] Wow. [Andy:] First mention I've actually seen in months. [Helen:] Do we put I wonder who statement for that? That's not mine. [Andy:] Right er well I think I've probably finished apologizing for what I did [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] write in the newsletter erm [Helen:] Thank you for getting it out so quick Andy [Andy:] No problem I'm sure. In future I'll try both to get the dates that are supposed to be in in there and get the copy into my mouth rather than my compatriots. Okay do we have any other matters arising from the minutes? Because I do. I've decided that this isn't any other business at all. I've got a picture of Hugh. [Helen:] Have you? [Andy:] Yeah I've got a picture of Hugh with one end of a decontaminate poster. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] Because er he was down there er trying to dip his nose in the toxic chemicals. Down at Heworth when we were getting er postcards filled in. [whispering] Our neighbour's looking. [] [Helen:] I think you can have a rest after campaign. [Andy:] Erm. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Do you know what this is about? [Bob:] Heworth Green. [Andy:] Yeah I've read about it. According to this thing in the paper they er had a hundred and thirty people. [Helen:] Mm. [Andy:] And er [Bob:] Hundred and thirty! [Andy:] Well [LAUGHTER] that's what is says there []. You could [Helen:] quite a lot don't they? [Andy:] [reading] Protestors were joined by York MP Hugh Bailey and City Councillors as they gathered at Heworth on Saturday. Erm I'm surprised that slightly surprised that with council and Hugh were willing to go down given what we had given our information about how dangerous or not the site actually is. That it's not very nice but it's er [Helen:] I didn't know Heworth was gonna be that [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yes. [Helen:] until it mentioned [Andy:] They're also apparently with ill health and amongst people living in the surrounding area. Whether there's any truth in this is... and the A A E who did the er survey include Atomic Energy Authority who who's like that as well. [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Right okay. [Helen:] I think we must have missed a briefing from [Andy:] Must must have done. [Helen:] Might might be the one when you were away. [Andy:] Right well there's a nice er we did get in the paper. [Helen:] We did. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Mm. [Andy:] Right any tasks to carry forward? [Helen:] Well erm Steve asked to write letters to to Penny. I don't know whether Jean got John to have written to Jean or not. I think he might have done but he didn't say. Erm apart from that I think we've done everything this week. [Bob:] Can you just quick quickly fill me in on what this letter to Penny is? [Helen:] It was about the supporters' campaign in the last [Bob:] Yeah. [Helen:] there's an article about... erm where is it here somewhere.... It's basically offering people erm rather than becoming members they can become a supporter for five pounds a year of the Green Party for which they get three shortened up beat newsletters and this week it was two sides of A four. Together with two further appeal letters. I've just noticed she actually uses the sentence being a Green Party supporter isn't meant to appeal to everyone. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] Erm and the meeting felt that it asks it asks for for views from local parties and we felt that the amount of money [speaker005:] [sneeze] [Helen:] they're gonna make you're gonna spend nearly a fiver sending all that out to people and really we should be encouraging people to be members and not to just give us money from time to time. [Ste (yes, Ste):] And in my own role as as the as being on the editorial board of the newsletter erm we need all the effort that we can going in into that really. There's some justification for having Green Link as a separate publication but even that is is under question in the coming twelve months because our circulation just doesn't warrant all of these publications. There there we can barely sustain Green World at the moment. So erm having an extra network and all of the administration that goes with it seems very much a waste of time especially when it creates another tier of of sort of quasar membership. Funny business. So er we've gotta sort of [Bob:] Object. [Ste (yes, Ste):] we don't think this is a very good idea seeing as she's asked. [Andy:] Okay erm can we move on. Conference accommodation and finance. [Helen:] Right erm. As requested I wrote and asked about self-catering accommodation at the conference and I received a reply saying that there's one house that erm she's come across that she thinks might be particularly suitable for us. It's a house for for, where are we, for six people. In other words it sleeps six erm and the landlady's willing to have one person sleeping on the floor officially. slot more people in appropriate. Erm two single bedrooms and two double bedrooms plus a living room all facilities erm except for sheets and towels. Which we'd have to take. [speaker005:] What no sheep? [Helen:] No sheep no. Erm it would cost for the four for the four nights of the con conference, that's from the Wednesday night to the Saturday night inclusive, six pounds a night each will almost cover the cost and we've fitted in an extra person on the floor at three pounds a night that would clear the cost completely. And she said to let her know straight away if we think it might be suitable. Erm Steve and Mark and I are definitely interested so that's three people so we're looking for another three people to share. Bearing in mind that if we do have the whole house then people are only coming for a few days or or even one night could no they had somewhere to stay. Erm and along with this we were thinking about ways to subsidize conference for people and this might be one way to do it for the for York Green Party to pay part of the cost of renting the accommodation. Erm on the understanding that for any Green Party members that want to use it over the conference. That's just a proposal it's an idea. So there you go. [Neil:] How many people have said that they're going so far? [Helen:] Well er me and Steve and Mark and you you're going [Neil:] Yeah. [Helen:] too aren't you? So that's four of us definitely going to. Erm Alison says she'd like to but her you know it depends on this that and the other. Yeah. [Neil:] I I'm definitely going to I picked this up from the information places. It's got all a list of all sort of bed and breakfasts and [speaker005:] Oh. [Neil:] holiday flats and things. And the holiday flats in here are quite expensive. But bed and breakfast are all very cheap. Erm you know. Where whereabouts is this is it? [Helen:] I don't know she didn't say. Didn't that's one thing I don't know. [Neil:] Cos if it's two or three miles away it's gonna be a bit of a problem. [Helen:] Yes that's right. Erm I I need to check that. [Bob:] How how much erm are the B and Bs? [Neil:] Well quite cheap. I mean about ten pound is the cheapest and perhaps even twelve. [Ste (yes, Ste):] The the extra advantage of the of the house would be cooking which we may get. Because if if people took advantage of the of these facilities it would make the whole business an awful lot cheaper for them. [Helen:] And if there's four of us there definitely then that's we only each have to cook once while we're there. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Andy:] to get out of conference to go to cook. [Neil:] If it's close. [Helen:] Yeah. [Neil:] If fact it's it's I found it in the past to be a welcome very welcome break from the atmosphere because you can't hang around in in the dining hall without talking a Green Party. [Andy:] As I remember it conference tends to run through until new clients so. Not really. [Neil:] So long as we're talking about sort of half a mile away ma maximum or with other sort of proper travelling arrangements. If it's half less than half a mile away then it's it's fine but if not it starts to becoming problematical. [Andy:] The other thing about financing it. So I haven't done the sums in my head. How much is it actually to get a place? [Helen:] Well if it's six pounds for six people that's thirty six pounds a night isn't it? For four nights [Andy:] Plus three [Helen:] Plus a bit. [Andy:] So it's about forty quid a night and there's Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday. [Helen:] It's four nights. [Andy:] So that's... that sounds quite a lot to ask the political party [Helen:] Oh I wouldn't ask them to pay [Andy:] Yeah. [Helen:] That would be too much. But it's one way of distributing any money that the party wants to give to subsidize people so that everybody can benefit from it erm rather than means testing.... [Neil:] I'm happy as long as we we get the definite six people definite. We I think you know we can do go into just four four people. [Andy:] I I'm quite happy to come in on it. I think I probably would like a single room though. Are there two single rooms? [Helen:] Two single and two double. [Andy:] Yeah well on a first come first serve [LAUGHTER] basis a single room I'd come in on it []. [Helen:] Well strangely enough I think we'll have to have double rooms [LAUGHTER].... [Bob:] Well if if we do only get four people it's going to be more isn't it? [Neil:] Yeah. [Bob:] It's going to be ten pounds a night each [Andy:] Yes erm. [Bob:] roughly and you don't get breakfast thrown in. [Andy:] No that's right.... [Bob:] I I would hope to be able to party conference probably only which would mean turning up either Friday night or Saturday morning. So potentially two nights out of the four. [Andy:] Does it have an address Helen? [Helen:] No it's through erm [Andy:] Right I just wondered if she gave you an address cos it you know got a super little town map here. If I was being cynical I'd volunteer Mark's car to get people to and from the town. If it was a long way out. [Helen:] Well he said that was a possibility but I really so. But then again. Erm but then it starts getting very very silly. I mean this is basically she's she already books some flats and house a house because self-catering accommodation's in such short supply because of long lets over the winter. [Neil:] Do we need to proceed on this now. Do we need to see if we can draw up an extra. I think one of the ideas behind the the party chipping in on this is because it would be extremely convenient for people who are popping in at the last minute for [Helen:] Mm. [Neil:] for a night or two to have somewhere that they know they can at least kip on the floor. Where you know so as not to have to risk going having to go to an expensive B and B because all the cheap places have gone. So to a certain extent the idea was to that if we had the thing worked out it would be of great benefit to the people who were popping by. Erm whereas at this stage the four of us could probably find accommodation which wasn't that much more expensive erm but to have the actual focus for the for the local party. [Bob:] Could we have people to pay the six pound a night and erm you know a hundred and forty four to start with and just ask people to pay the six pound a night anyway and just get as much back as we can? [Helen:] Yeah yeah. [Bob:] Cos six pound a night isn't bad. It's less than we pay in Wolverhampton. [Helen:] Oh it's very reasonable yes. [Andy:] It would be possible I suppose with the commitment of people for the local party to make on the committee. [Helen:] I mean I have a couple of ideas. I was going to ask Mike if he wants to come as an observer because he's never been to conference and erm [Bob:] And when it comes [Helen:] he was talking about spending a weekend with us anyway so it might be nice thing to do. [Bob:] When it comes to that though there will be people from other green parties who who'll be looking for accommodation so at the last minute we can [Helen:] Dick for example. [Bob:] Yeah. We're hoping that we'll [Helen:] If he's coming he might like to be to be [Bob:] There's a good chance of filling most rooms most nights I would have thought. [Helen:] Well shall I ring Joyce back and say providing it's close erm we'll have it and take it from there. Okay. Oh I haven't written. [Bob:] Shall I alert Dick to its existence then? [Helen:] Yes I think that would be that would be a nice thing to do. [Bob:] Cos that would be a nice definite. Okay. [Andy:] I'll make a decision when I'm in a position to. [Helen:] Well this is why it would be a good idea to so people will have to decide in advance and just see how we go for [Andy:] Do you have to send off a deposit or anything? [Helen:] I'll find out when I ring and she'll. If I do I'll be ringing round frantically [LAUGHTER] find out what to do []. [Andy:] I would suggest that given the decision we prepared to make now even if you have to send a deposit get the local party to stump up the deposit and collect the money as soon as convenient from the people who are committed to going. [Helen:] Is that agreed with all of you here. [speaker005:] Sure mm. [Andy:] Since the local party's going to cover the shortfall anyway if there one. [Helen:] Okay. [Andy:] she'll be subletting rooms to people. Slum land for the Green Party [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Right is that erm. [Andy:] Okay presumably I should put something again in the newsletter about conference and this accommodation thing. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Bob:] Yeah it it means that you can point out that it makes it a lot simpler for someone to just pop over for a night and crash out on the floor. [Helen:] Are you coming to conference at all. [Andy:] No I won't be er my family situation can change so. [Helen:] Oh. [Andy:] Don't have to do things like erm. [Helen:] We can always run a little creche actually for nanny from Scarborough got a baby as well. Give over one of the rooms to people. [Andy:] When is it? [Helen:] It's er the first weekend in March.... [Neil:] Anyway shall we [Andy:] Okay shall we move on. Do you want to tell us all about the stall for for the energy conservation bill? [Bob:] Certainly. Yeah the stall was extremely successful. We kicked off at eleven and went on till three and there were I think six people stuffing er in the course of the day Bob Andy Mark and myself and Chris. A late showing from the man himself. And erm I was particularly pleased to get Chris along because he was extremely effective. Erm what we were doing was filling in these these postcards asking MPs to turn up on February the fourth to support the energy conservation bill when it has its er second reading in Parliament. And erm it was ex ex it was great having Chris along because erm he went out and grabbed everybody in the street, pulled them in onto the stall and er and got them got them to sign on the dotted line so to speak. Er he came along after the the Heworth Green er demonstration. Which he described incidentally as a bit of a damp. And they all they all ran away very soon after the press left. So so he came along and did some work for us. Apart from that erm the scores on the doors forty six postcards were sent out which doesn't sound perhaps like very many but is in fact quite a lot of work when you're having to find people who's who people's MPs are for them and so on. And we were we covered sixteen different MPs which is especially good news because Hugh Bailey normally supports the bill and as far as we know is likely to turn up and and vote for it. But getting out to MPs like erm John Prescott the energy spokesperson for the Labour Party and so on. [Helen:] And John Gummer. [Bob:] John Gummer right yeah. Lots of people who are marginal erm we don't know erm ourselves if if they're intending. So this might help tip the balance. And because in with it it's a national campaign. It's er it's all all to the good. And so it's keeping up the the good work that's of of lobbying MPs to such a degree that they they've got to back it which is what's brought it to its second reading as one of the most popular er private member's bills in history. Erm we received eleven pounds eighty seven in donations. Er the cost of stamps was eight pounds seventy four and therefore our profit [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Bob:] profit was [LAUGHTER] three pounds thirteen pence []. [Helen:] Not bad for somebody who thought it was going to [LAUGHTER] cost us money []. [Bob:] So people gave us money for the stamps that we put on and other people gave us donations. All round erm it was great. We had our presence. It's a very effective direct piece of lobbying and at a time when a lot of people who obviously weren't Green Party supporters behind the campaign. The cross party campaign for the for the bill which we've written. So. [Helen:] the only political party ever to have two pieces of legislation in the House of Commons without having any M Ps. [Andy:] I'd just like to second that it was a good day and also to point out as the er man who made the postcards we shouldn't get too excited about this as a money making scheme. Because most of that three pounds thirteen's probably been paid for out hundreds of sheets of cardboard. So. [Bob:] But considering considering we were we were [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] Didn't make a loss. [] [Bob:] I held ten fifteen pounds for the privilege. [Helen:] relation thing. [Bob:] Every time I do a stall I I quake in my boots up until I do it and then I feel great when we're doing it and afterwards realize that it's been productive and we we've had a good lot a good response from the public. So there we go. [Andy:] Helen do you want to tell us about the next stage? [Helen:] Yes. Seeing as we all filled in our postcards ages ago we can write some more letters this week. Or tomorrow. I can give you a list of people to to write to. First of all there's Robert Atkins M P. This is the man who erm replaced erm Mr Yeo [Bob:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yes. [] [Helen:] with his trousers down. Now I think erm Ron was a bit upset because he spent most of of Christmas sending Christmas cards and saying, Please please let this bill go through don't give it any. And he said, Oh alright then what's your wife like. Erm however No that's right. Erm Tim erm you know having desi have design? [LAUGHTER] resigned [] he was followed by Robert Atkins MP for South Riddle. Now Mr Atkins former job is as Minister in Northern Ireland so he's unlikely to know a lot about what was going on in the in the Commons at the end of last session which is a bit unfortunate. He's been hiding under a under an agreement. [Andy:] He should at least be a very effective man. [Helen:] Well it's important to get his support so that's one person that we can write to to erm seek support. That's Robert Atkins M P. [Bob:] What what [Helen:] Also [Bob:] is his actual title? Sorry to butt in. He's the Secretary of State for Energy or Minister for Energy [Helen:] Minister yes sure. [Andy:] Secretary of State for the Environment wasn't it? [Helen:] Minister for the Environment. [Ste (yes, Ste):] It's Gummer isn't it? [Helen:] No I'll come to that in a minute. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Oh. [Andy:] Gummer is the Secretary of State. [Helen:] Yes. And he's an expert on all this. John Gummer Secretary, oh he sent two postcards to you from his constituents. Erm Secretary of State for the Environment and Robert G Hughes who's the Environment Whip. But it's important that you get Robert G Hughes and not Robert Hughes who is Labour MP for Aberdeen. So [Bob:] Aberdeen North I take it? [Helen:] Yeah. So that's Robert G Hughes MP for Harr [Bob:] Do you know his his [Helen:] Harrow East. [Ste (yes, Ste):] He's Environment Whip. [Helen:] Yeah. There are more. [Andy:] Right I want [Helen:] But I think realistically that's probably enough work for all of us for the rest of the week. [Andy:] And John Gummer was [Helen:] Secretary of State for the Environment. [Andy:] Right. Because I've already written to Atkins cos that's in the newsletter. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] So he's Secretary of State. [Helen:] I'm asking the people round the table to write these extra couple of letters because we must be activists because we're here by definition. And so we're likely to I think if I put the whole list in the newsletter it might have put people off. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. [Helen:] Erm [Andy:] Yes is it all about this any more in the newsletter next newsletter? [Helen:] No because I think by the end well unless something dramatic happens on the fourth of February which is this Friday next Friday rather. If it does I'll be on to you straight on the phone. But otherwise I I don't expect to need any more work on this for this Friday. [Andy:] Yeah. But we ought to have something about having a second reading in it anyway [Helen:] Oh of course yes. [Andy:] because it's news. [Helen:] Yes indeed. Even if it's stop press. [Andy:] probably getting tight for Monday the seventh anyway. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Ste (yes, Ste):] Brilliant. [Neil:] On a point of information Helen what can happen on on this second reading if [Helen:] Right I can I I can tell you. Erm there'll be a whole a whole day's debate on the bill which is an achievement in itself. At the end of which a number of things can happen. Firstly the bill can go through on the nod with no note. This is possible with ballot laws is now ballot bill. But we can't rely on it. It's quite possible that some MPs will try and talk the bill out. That is try and ensure that when the House rises at two thirty P M the debate on the bill is still in progress. And if that happened the bill automatically falls unless we can move the closure of the debate. Now this means that the sponsor of the bill, Allan, brothers,pro proposes that the debate be closed and the bill be given a second reading. In this case we must not only win the vote but we must have a hundred MPs in the House to vote for the closure. With me so far? [Neil:] Mm. [Andy:] But not all of those hundred must vote for the must vote for the closure there must be a hundred people there to take part in the vote is that right? [Helen:] No. It is no good putting a closure vote by ninety nine to one or even ninety nine to nought. The objector cunningly doesn't vote. We must have a hundred MPs voting for the closure. [Neil:] All of it ah right okay. [Helen:] So we need a hundred present. Which is where on a Friday afternoon. But if if everybody else around the country has been lobbying as hard we have there's a good chance. After all there's three hundred and three hundred and however many was yes three hundred and sixty MPs who supported it. Three hundred and twenty seven put their name to an easy end. So out of those we should be able to manage a hundred surely. The other thing is if we're successful with Atkins if he's behind the bill the MPs are unlikely to talk it out. They'll accept it and put send it through on the nod if we can get his support. [Neil:] So he's crucial. Why is the Whip so important? Because surely he's just enforcing the Minister's policy. [Helen:] Erm yes. But these people get together. [Neil:] Right. [Helen:] I mean it's not as if Robert Atkins making all the decisions. Three hundred people say hang round the bar and say, conservation board I've had lots of letters, well so have I, we'll get get through them they might cause trouble. That that's the plan. [Neil:] Well go for democracy the decision being you know for the country being taken by three [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] Tories rather than [Helen:] Well that's right yes rather than one. Well they don't ask John Major of course. [LAUGHTER]. They can tell [LAUGHTER] John Major []. [Andy:] So why I'm I'm slightly puzzled as to why Robert Atkins is actually more important than John Selwyn Gummer? I mean [Ste (yes, Ste):] Because I'm because John Gummer's responsibilities extend a long way into things like housing and stuff as well don't they? Whereas Robert Atkins has more specific responsibility perhaps for getting this area. [Andy:] People of one [Ste (yes, Ste):] I don't know that's what I imagine. [Andy:] people of one of the environment and the other's Secretary of State for the Environment. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. [Andy:] Fair enough. It's just bizarre rules of procedure. [Ste (yes, Ste):] There are more Ministers of State that there are Secretaries of State. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] To be honest I think we should be grateful they don't have to have the court magician come in [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Wave their wand and recite the Lords Prayer. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Bob:] Fair enough. [clears throat] I assumed there would be a reason assume there was going to be a good reason. Erm so who else was on your list of people we ought to write to [Helen:] South East Cambridgeshire who's the Parl Parliamentary Secretary to John Gummer. [Andy:] Who's the sorry your and I can't [Helen:] Sorry. Erm [Andy:] Garry was Robert Atkins [Helen:] Parliamentary Private Secretary.... And... [Andy:] And [Helen:] And James Paice [spelling] P A I C E [] [Andy:] [spelling] P A I C E [] [Helen:] Yes. [Andy:] Of [Helen:] MP for South East Cambridgeshire... and he's P P S to John Gummer.... and these people are erm unpaid helpers to Ministers and Secretaries of State it says here. [Andy:] Unpaid. So [Helen:] They're they're the eyes and ears of their boss and they have to report any political pressure so we have to [LAUGHTER] find something for them [] to report basically. [Andy:] I I wrote to Atkins saying as Minister for the Environment er, Please support the energy conversation bill because it's dead good. Presumably I can also write to John Gummer saying is dead good. Am I right to write to the others saying I or should [Helen:] Oh yeah. [Andy:] I write to Gerry saying say, Please prod Robert Atkins and remind him that the energy conservation bill's dead good in case he's forgotten. [Helen:] Erm no I think the former I think the Parliamentary [Andy:] But I can write to him in his capacity as Robert Atkins' Parliamentary Private Secretary. [Helen:] Yes. [Andy:] Cos otherwise it looks like writing to random M Ps. [Helen:] I think you're sort of drawing drawing their attention to the public concern over that sort of phrase. [Ste (yes, Ste):] And widespread [clears throat] cross party support. [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [Neil:] Honest guv. [Helen:] wishy-washy statements for your audience. [Andy:] I presume getting letters out is more important than high quality prose here is it? [Helen:] Oh yes. Just a couple [Ste (yes, Ste):] Cos I mean [Helen:] of lines will do. [Ste (yes, Ste):] name name dropping the supporters I mean for to those Tories telling them that the that the association for county councils for example is a backer probably counts more than telling them that that [LAUGHTER] is a backer []. [Andy:] Yeah well I think particularly [Ste (yes, Ste):] or green particularly [Andy:] doing their own I just take the letters I've already written to other people change one sentence and change the er name on [Helen:] That's fine so [Andy:] comrade. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Printed off on my er employer's er computer and er put it in one of their envelopes and try to steal a stamp from them. [Ste (yes, Ste):] We're gonna get it all down Andy don't worry. [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] How wide is the Green Party's main bill associated with do you think? [Ste (yes, Ste):] Well in the main lobbyist has been Ron who's the who's our elected campaigns officers and he's quite literally been spending time treading the the hallowed halls of Westminster [Andy:] I mean in the media. [Ste (yes, Ste):] In the media I mean I haven't seen much about it in the media. Er [Helen:] Well when when it was first read by erm it was mentioned that it had been written by the Green Party by radio four and the Guardian and the Independent. And as far as I know that's the only coverage I've seen personally of it. [Andy:] Well I s I saw an article in erm the Green Alliance, a fairly shadowy organization, er mentioned in their newsletter. It was it was erm promoted by the association of conservation of energy. [Helen:] Mhm. [Andy:] So I rang them up. But that's yeah I haven't seen much. [Helen:] Yeah it's supported by the [Andy:] Well no they said they said prepared by er [Helen:] Oh right. [Bob:] What is the Green Alliance? [Andy:] I don't really know. I don't know who they get their money from but they. I mean they used to provide the advisor to various secretaries of state I think didn't they? [speaker005:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] I don't know who they are really. They send out this newsletter anyway. [Ste (yes, Ste):] But I mean the main the main I mean in it in certain quarters we've been down playing that aspect of it simply to get it through. [Andy:] Sure. [Ste (yes, Ste):] But er all of the main organizations that have you know World Wide and Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth and so on and Age Concern. They all know they were all told that it's it's all a bit above board. But in promoting it to MPs we've been drawing their attention to the kinds of organizations which in turn in their eyes just sort of represent that pyramid or structure of votes that. [Helen:] And of course when it goes through they already have our our as it were [Andy:] Yeah. [Helen:] With a bit of luck and careful handling. [Ste (yes, Ste):] And the MPs who who asked to put it forward including Alan they they had to you know they came to Ron to ask, Can we put your bill forward. [Helen:] They all know Ron anyway. [Ste (yes, Ste):] He's a very old hand in lobbying er which shows it's how it's we've got it this far. [Andy:] Mm. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Because he's known this labyrinth rubbish that they cling to. [Andy:] Okay shall we move on to billboards? [speaker005:] Mm. [Andy:] Before we get bogged down. [Helen:] I haven't received the samples, er oh sorry I I'll moving on to what we're talking about. The National Party are mounting a poster campaign for the elections. For both elections which hope hopefully covers the Euros and the er locals starting at the beginning er towards the end of the local election campaign to running through to the June. And they said erm if you would like to see the designs write and ask for a sample so we wrote and I haven't actually received any samples yet. But I have had a letter erm explaining where the billboards are in our area and how much they cost. It's a very badly written letter actually. For one thing it starts, [reading] Dear Mrs Knightingale [] which got my back up. Erm and then it goes on to say, [reading] Please find the enclosed the postal sites available in your area Miriam [] who's the Green Party person who's organizing it [reading] has provided the required areas and if you need any more details please don't hesitate to call me or my secretary. And under the sites may also availability at the time of booking. I look forward to hearing from you with your selections []. But introductory letter aside erm interesting. [Andy:] Can I just get clarification here? [Helen:] Yes. [Andy:] That letter almost sounds like we us around this table are expected to choose some of the sites. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] We didn't just write for information as to what National Parties [Helen:] Erm well I just wrote Miriam and said, I saw your article in Green Week can you send me further details. And this is what's happened so. [Andy:] What it transpires is local parties who are interested enough get what's [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] get to try and choose site. Right. [Helen:] Erm now then it gives us a erm a price here which I think is weekly. Because the availability columns are weekly so it makes sense that the price means weekly. Erm and it has a number of different types W and F. But if I run through the addresses I think it'll make sense because everybody will recognize where they are. Erm in York Holgate Road which is twelve pounds a week. Hundred and ten Fishergate which I think is the side of Jacksons that's fifteen pounds a week. Erm in fact there's two there. East Parade eighteen pounds a week. Tang Hall Lane eighteen pounds. Another one at Holgate Road fifteen erm York Road Acomb twenty. Walmgate twelve pounds and Hull Road twelve pounds. Er Fulford Road eighteen pounds. Presto Main Street Haxby eighteen pounds. Another couple at Acomb for twenty pounds and then they also give just a cost for Ripon and Scarborough. So I don't know about anybody else but that's cheaper than I expected it to be. [speaker005:] Yes absolutely. [Helen:] And the fact that they're several in Fulford that I'd say are very good sites. I always read them erm when I about Fulford. [Bob:] At Fulford Road or Fishergate would be the best one to go for. [Helen:] Yes. [Andy:] Are these the sort of the like to the end of bus stops? [Helen:] Well from what I can gather the cheaper one on Fishergate is a bus stop size one. There's one actually at the bus stop by the Police Station and there's another one on the corner of the erm just before you turn into Terrace there's there's a free standing one outside the shop there. And I think the eighteen pound one is probably the big one on the side of Jacksons building. Erm actually high up you know full size billboard. Which I'd say is less useful in fact than the little ones. I think the little ones might noticed. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Cos I mean I all whenever I'm going travelling into into York and they've changed that billboard I always look at it. [Andy:] Yeah. People in cars will notice the big one a lot better. [Helen:] Yeah that's true. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Which is our target audience [Andy:] Obviously yes. [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] wait at bus stops. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Right could be a policy decision this couldn't it? [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] Anyway I suppose before we decide we really need to know how much the National Party are going to charge us if anything for the actual posters and what the posters look like. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. [Andy:] And how many posters they what size and shape of posters they're doing which will affect which site of course. [Helen:] That's right. [Andy:] no good. [Helen:] So I'll give [Andy:] The erm type thing means what means little codes mean or does that give us any indication as to what these sites are? [Helen:] No there isn't a key unfortunately. [Andy:] Oh. [Ste (yes, Ste):] I'll tell you now if the poster says Labour isn't working I'm not having it. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Yeah what which is the nearest one to a Conservative Club? Cos there's a Conservative Club down in Fishergate isn't there [Ste (yes, Ste):] They actually own the one on the side of the Conservative building I thought. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Ste (yes, Ste):] Or they thought they did until it always says Conservative propaganda [LAUGHTER] on the sides so I think that's a gonna []. [Helen:] It's it's on a little table at the end which says rate card analysis and it had T V areas Yorkshire T V North East T V and then principle main secondary local corner shop other and totals [LAUGHTER] numbers in the middle [].... [LAUGHTER] Anybody got any suggestions on that? [] [Andy:] Will we pay the cost of the poster site? Is this your understand as well as the cost of the poster? [Helen:] I think so. Well I think what they suggest to me that we have to pay for the poster site. Whether or not the Green Party then supplies the posters I wouldn't like to say. [Andy:] Right so it's not just that the National Party want the people on the ground to choose the nice addresses. [Helen:] Well that's the [Neil:] I think it's clear that the money's coming from from the local parties. What they're ac what they're trying to do is coordinate enough local parties with the same poster that they can make a block booking I would have thought. [Bob:] This might be a good way of raising funds by asking people particularly for the Euros I think. Why don't you sponsor you know, members who don't normally come to meetings, to sponsor erm a site for [Helen:] Yeah. [Bob:] I think a lot of people would be willing to do that. Erm make a big splash in the newsletter, Please sponsor your your Green Party poster for the elections.... [Andy:] Doing this this is one erm campaign that as a small proportion of the poster sites is it? [Helen:] It looks that way yeah. [Andy:] There must be lots of other. [Helen:] I mean this they must have got my name through Miriam so they must already have worked out the they were working [Andy:] Right. Okay are you willing to go away and [Helen:] Yeah I think I need to talk to Miriam again don't I. Unfortunately I don't have a phone number I only have an address. But I'll write her a postcard to say, Yes it looks quite interesting when can we see the samples and can you tell us more about how the money works. [Andy:] Yeah and confirm that that isn't a daily price. [Helen:] I think that I'll have to confirm with the company. [Andy:] Yes. But it just just seems suspiciously cheap. That twelve [Neil:] Well I mean it's not the huge massive billboards. I mean if they're just sort of four foot things I mean it's not you know I think. [Andy:] Yeah perhaps. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Anyway that's really into this idea. [Andy:] Especially Bob's suggestion of calling for people to sponsor [speaker005:] Sponsor [Andy:] sponsor a poster. Erm should I at least be prepared to again stick something in the newsletter about. As you say it's the sort of thing that might appeal to people because then they can go and look at their poster. Be photographed next to it. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] What do you think? We could always do posting on the side of the Conservative building. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] Your direct your direct action at home. [Andy:] Yes well come and visit you in prison. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Right does that cover billboards? [Helen:] Yep. [Ste (yes, Ste):] no that was a good agenda item just got silly. [Helen:] [LAUGHTER] [Andy:] Okay. Who wanted to talk about affiliation stroke working with other groups? [Helen:] This is something we said we were going to discuss at a time in the future and I thought I'd stick it on and see how much time we'd got left. [Andy:] Right. Well we've got twenty five minutes at present shall we can you just wipe around a couple of other things and then we'll come back to that if time remains? [Helen:] Yes do. [Andy:] Okay. Right intro leaflet. Do I hear apathy? Or directions? [Helen:] Erm I think Neil might benefit from knowing what the intro leaflet is. [Andy:] Right well we call it an intro leaflet because we like misleading agenda items mostly. What we actually mean is a sort of mini manifesto introduction to the Green Party booklet sixteen pages or so. [Helen:] Oh yeah it's gone back to being a leaflet it was a booklet last week. [Andy:] Yes yeah. Yes so what we mean is an intro booklet sort of A five sixteen or so pages covering ten or fifteen sort of major Green Party policy areas. [Neil:] Mm. [Andy:] Er the idea was we'd be able to sell it to people or give it to people depending on whether they had any money or not I suppose by the Green Party. If we were really lucky we'd be able to go to conference and try and sell hundreds of them to other Green Parties who might want to do the same. So we a number of us went away with lists of topics that we were going to write erm two hundred and fifty or so words about. And we went away clutching bits of and similar document and things like that. Erm and so far well I'm certainly willing to confess that I took these away full of good intentions and have have so far carried around this torn up copy of the Greater London Green Party for months. [Neil:] Have they not done similar such publications knocking about the Green Party like catalogues for [Ste (yes, Ste):] Well we we had our own local manifesto before and the idea, well in in practical terms it was extremely detailed and erm each rewrite was was a very big exercise and just photocopying er it was an extremely large booklet. So we thought essentially really we're slimming down our own local manifesto. [Neil:] Right. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Where and actually sort of rather than saying this is our manifesto and you know our policy promises it's lacking excitement on our general policy. [Andy:] It's also generalizing beyond local council issues. [Helen:] Mm. [Andy:] Local manifesto tends to be tied to and attempting to remain more timeless that one or two [Helen:] Yeah more to sort of statements of principles rather than just a policy so it lasts a bit. And I wrote my section. I'd just like to make this perfectly clear that I did write a draft for work and leisure. And I even had added colours on this copy. [Andy:] Yeah and I hope they weren't too harsh. They were written while I was on a train and probably in a bad mood. [Helen:] I didn't didn't get the opportunity to explain to you the joke beside behind your writing don't use contractions in written material. Which is perfectly fair comment except that you've used a contraction. [Andy:] I knew I'd used [LAUGHTER] a contraction you know []. So [Helen:] It does say draft actually. [Andy:] Yeah I know. I use contractions in the newsletter some times which is deliberately honest. [Ste (yes, Ste):] It's like saying avoid cliches like the plague. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] I mean I I'd having been these comments and yes there are a couple of extra points put in there I think that that's fine. It's nice to get some of it done. What about the rest of you lads? [Andy:] Well as soon as I have a window in my diary which I'm not [Helen:] We'll let you off with the newsletter. [Andy:] contribution it is said. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Alright I'll I'll undertake to to come up with something for our next meeting. [Helen:] I mean all I I didn't I just did exactly what I was told. I put brought out a list of points. There's no grammar in there. There's contractions all over the place because erm and all sorts. I even used numbers instead of writing them out in full verse. So erm [Ste (yes, Ste):] You can minute me and I'll erm [Neil:] Did you use any semicolons? [Andy:] Probably put a split infinitive as well. [Helen:] Well I've got the checking erm. Right so Steve is undertaking to be the next brave soldier to [LAUGHTER] write something for [] [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] I don't know what I'm doing. [] The general [Helen:] We have to be very busy. I mean this this this item has actually been deferred two meetings and [Ste (yes, Ste):] Mm. [Andy:] Yeah. [Ste (yes, Ste):] We'll just been too busy. [Andy:] Then I'll try and get something if I get time but. Okay [Ste (yes, Ste):] Still I suppose the time's it's the actual the calendar's starting to tick for having this isn't it now. [Neil:] Yeah if we're actually ever gonna make use of it we will, joking aside, have to try and get something. [Helen:] Well after after the big box pile up I'm I'm free on the Green Party. And then the elections and then get our act together. [Andy:] I don't think we need to be too sorry at the reason we're not getting it written is we're far too busy lobbying MPs and making protests in the centre of town and things. So it's probably good rather [Ste (yes, Ste):] On balance. [Andy:] Right. Any other business? I've got a couple of things. Do we have nominations for conference reps and local election candidates? Because these will need to go in the selection ballot in the newsletter what I am going to write. [Helen:] Oh er you mean from people here? [Andy:] Well [Helen:] Yes? [Andy:] Or I mean the flood of phone calls that have no doubt saved the erm Green Party. [Helen:] Oh I'd I'd like to be a a delegate at conference but I can't be a candidate this year cos I'm captain of my and I think I'll be a bit busy anyway to be honest doing press work. It would be nice to have a break from doing it. [Andy:] Right. Anybody wish to be put forward as conference attender? [Bob:] The number is unlimited is it? [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] Yeah. We have three voting certificates but you can pass them around [Helen:] It's a shared job. [Andy:] Yeah. [Bob:] Oh might as well then. [Helen:] You just have to be approved by the that's all. [Bob:] Yeah I'll do that thing. [Andy:] Right so that's got three so far and [Helen:] I mean I think if you're not sure whether you want whether you'll be able to go I mean you can still you can still be a delegate then if you do go then you're able to vote so. [Andy:] So you'd like to be put down on the ballot to be approved do you? [Helen:] Doesn't mean you have to go. Just means that if you do go you [Andy:] Right I I that's fine yes I'll [Ste (yes, Ste):] You see it makes it easier for us as well because it means that if you do if you are there we can leave you in charge for ten minutes while [Andy:] Presumably Mark will run? [Helen:] Yeah I would think so. I'll tell him to give you a ring if it's [Andy:] Yeah right I'll put him down with a question mark. [Helen:] Oh it's nice to see people to see a good list of people who are going. [Andy:] And I could put myself down as in case I get there for a day or two.... [Ste (yes, Ste):] And for candidates erm yeah I'll I'll stand I'll have to bite the boys again. [Andy:] Yeah. Talking of standing did did we ever make any progress on Fishergate? [Helen:] We haven't got anybody. [Ste (yes, Ste):] John hasn't come back to us. [Helen:] No. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Erm John said he informed me he he'd stand for Monk again and he I told him to write write a. [Andy:] John 's Monk. Presumably in the selection ballot we don't have to [speaker005:] I think we do have [Ste (yes, Ste):] We can have su suggested [Andy:] But we don't [Ste (yes, Ste):] wards. [Andy:] But we don't definitely have to sign people. Er so you were Clifton. Which is erm Bill [Helen:] That's Clifton. [Andy:] That's Clifton. I I'm certainly interested I'm quite interested in Bishop Hill unless anybody else wants it. Erm again I mean I'm happy to give that if there's someone actually living in Bishop who wants it but erm I've got erm some someone who lives there wanted me to stand in. Good reason to er. Do you have any [Ste (yes, Ste):] Not at this time. [Andy:] I guess I can stand somewhere. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Well that's got the ball rolling. [Andy:] Erm... and if anybody runs into anybody else and can ask them or anything if there isn't actually an army of er sort of letters coming through your door saying yes yes make me a candidate. [Helen:] Just to remind everybody that we've decided that this year we weren't going to put pressure on people. Because it just took so much of our energy last time helping people fill in forms and everything. If people aren't comfortable enough to volunteer. I mean obviously if for example didn't ring up and say I want to sign your name your name tomorrow, I'd ring her up to see whether she'd lost her [LAUGHTER] mind or something []. Because you know she usually does. [Andy:] She's actually got er terrible flu. But I'm going round to see her next weekend. [Helen:] Yeah but you know what I mean. If it's somebody who we really expect to stand then by all means then chase them up. But I don't want to go around looking for candidates like we did last time. Because it's erm it just takes too much energy away. [Andy:] Right. [Helen:] And if we haven't got a full slate well I mean looking at that list we're doing quite well. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah. [Andy:] So would you be likely to speak to John saying again wouldn't like to pressure Jean again but think John would like to [Helen:] I'm sure John would. Erm I shall ring him and ask him make sure he's [Andy:] I'll try and ask. So have we taken a decision to target Bishopgate then? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Helen:] It's five for the next five years. It's quite a commitment. [Andy:] So we're looking for the ideal candidate. [Helen:] Yep. This is before anybody gets any ideas at all. [Ste (yes, Ste):] And the the reasons for it is because we're it's the sort of by far the most solid concentration of our our actual members and likely supporters. [Bob:] I used to live down there towards one part of that. [Helen:] Yeah. [Andy:] So it's all it's from that time on it's. [Helen:] I'd like to get that back again if we could. But we really need a candidate and there isn't anybody erm obvious who's in a position to do it unfortunately. [Bob:] Fishergate this year? [Helen:] Mm. Yes. [Andy:] Yes he does he lives in. [Bob:] That's in Fishergate isn't it? [Helen:] That's very true. Must be an experienced person. I don't know cold candidate. [Neil:] No. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah the main difficulty is in is in the time period because it's it's quite likely that I mean I'd we'd been we'd been hoping that the target candidate could put in a reasonable amount of personal commitment to to the campaign. Other and if it wasn't for for me doing a course next year which would probably preclude me from doing that, I'd be quite interested. But I haven't got I couldn't at this stage say I could do a tap next year. Even the year afterwards may be not. [Helen:] Well shall I ask Humphrey whether he's [Bob:] Worth sounding him out. [Andy:] Ask ask him if he'd like to do it. We'll come back to you if we can't find somebody who's got more time I guess.... Okay that sort of covers I think what I need to know for for election stuff. Because we've said we're gonna have a selection ballot. Right. Erm another thing I noted under any other business is green strategy document. This Government one. I mean this might not be a good time to chat about it. I it's just that I remember on Monday morning hearing on the radio that it was being talked about that afternoon and of course immediately forgot to go and get a copy of the next day's Guardian and read about it and all the other [Neil:] It's today's Guardian. [Andy:] It's today's Guardian. I've got it I've got it at home I can bring it in at the next meeting or whatever. [Ste (yes, Ste):] That would be good. [Andy:] Or drop it into their office. Possibly we could have later event if we'd read [Neil:] Especially [Andy:] about it we could you know five minutes. [Neil:] Well you know I mean you said that they did a couple of lines just to say something about [Ste (yes, Ste):] They both I mean they I think they've released four documents outlining the way in which they're going to meet their commitments and they one of their the Guardian gave devoted page six the whole of page six to this. Erm and one of the pieces was sort of comments from various interested parties and the Green Party got a couple of lines in there after the Lib Dems and before. [Andy:] I was still laughing too much from from some comment that the Government did one one of their four promises was to was to put pri public transport before [LAUGHTER] private roads. I nearly cracked up []. John Major saying that people will have to accept restrictions on on car usages and it's an amazing thing to come from a Tory. Yeah and I I asked the question not too much from the Green Party point of view as from a personal point view as I I would like to know what my Government is saying to do about these things. [Ste (yes, Ste):] I I'd no idea he he'd actually he'd actually said something like like that. [Helen:] He also said that there's no reason to give up the dream of economic growth but then there you go. [Neil:] Well nobody thinks that. [Andy:] They don't seem to be doing too well with the the energy of economic growth. [Helen:] No. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Helen:] Dream more I guess. [Neil:] No after all the party of economic growth and reduced taxation [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] Yes [] [Neil:] I know I've I've read the publicity material and [Bob:] I thought you were going to say you voted for them. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] [cough] I would have had something to say about that. [Bob:] That's not my party [Ste (yes, Ste):] They had Sir Jonathan on the radio the day of the message saying they're long on rhetoric and short of substance. [Andy:] That was the the overall comment I think that the documents were very very light on detail as you might I've was just I heard erm how Lord Jonathan has just been become become a pier or something. No it's erm his father died. It it's not a hereditary title I think but I think he can become a sir if he wants to. Yeah I just I guess I had hoped to be pleasantly surprised that it wasn't rhetoric [Helen:] The only coverage I've seen so far is erm is the news and ten of all things. That we were watching last night. And the encouraging thing was that they're all things that a few years ago in the Green Party sort things out they're all there. [Andy:] Absolutely. [Helen:] For all that the Government is making a bit of er er idiot of itself by not embracing the things that it needs to embrace the things it needs to do, at least it's saying that it won't do them. Which is the first step from the process isn't it? [Andy:] Did anyone see Panorama erm because er Panorama was was almost entirely [Helen:] I've got it taped. [Andy:] devoted to the question of of of road transport and its limitations and erm er although again I mean there was no particular mention to any party other than the Government, erm it it certainly seemed to be taking a very critical view of of road transport and it does seem to be spreading now. It doesn't seem to be er just a few sort of you know any more. [Helen:] Yeah. [Neil:] Certainly keeps them going on the grounds that eventually there will you know we'll be able to say and this is what we believed this long and you know this is what has been proved to be necessary. So it's [Andy:] We can already say that I mean there there obviously there's a lot of talk now about erm taxation towards towards resource taxes and those sorts of things which the Green Party were saying you know fifteen years ago or something. And now everyone's talking about it and it's in one way it makes you gnash your teeth that that we're not getting the credit yet [Ste (yes, Ste):] [LAUGHTER] yeah [] [Andy:] but in another way it's gotta be given I suppose. [Helen:] Mm. One last item for any other business erm I forgot about. There's a book that goes with names in this campaign. Erm a policy statement like roads to the future which is what reminded me of it. And the price has gone down it's only five pounds if [Ste (yes, Ste):] What from twenty five? [Helen:] Yes thirty thirty five. Erm and I was going to say we will get a a boiled down version from with our materials for the campaign. But I was going to suggest that we order a copy of the book. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Certainly. [Andy:] Okay we now have seven and a half minutes on affiliation other groups. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Personally I think we might er defer it because that [Helen:] Perhaps we could start with an informal chat on the topic and work up to [Andy:] Yeah can you give us sort of thirty second briefing on what we're supposed to be developing [Helen:] Right well it came up when War on Want wrote to us and asked us to affiliate and we had a brief chat about it and felt that there are many groups that we could affiliate to. War on Want almost certainly weren't at the top of the list. Erm and then I think it was Andy actually who said that erm affiliation is something we could do with considering. I mean any groups at all and if so which ones. That it would be useful for us to affiliate to. [Andy:] What are the implications of affiliating with somebody be questioned by that I don't know the answer to. [Neil:] It depends sometimes he gets the information sometimes it's basically just registering your your approval with them. [Bob:] I mean it depends on each organization doesn't it? Sort of two way two way thing you agree or don't agree between yourselves. [Andy:] I'm in some ways surprised the non-political groups want to affiliate with with the party. War on Want are er for a long time have been the only probably the only erm that put their neck on the block as far as social and environmental aspects of the party go. But you know I agree with you cos that as a charity. Yeah they seem to have a lot more to loose than we do. Yeah. [Neil:] There's been a lot of trouble lately a lot of problems haven't they. War on Want didn't they go bankrupt or something. [speaker005:] They did yeah. [Andy:] There is a possibility that War on Want should be considered as being relatively high on our list of people we would be willing to affiliate with. [Bob:] That's something that not bad at all they do as well so.... [Andy:] So is this was the national War on Want who contact us or the local contact? [Helen:] Erm it was a lady who came from Leek. [Andy:] Oh. [Neil:] Do we have any feedback from any other local parties or the National Party are they recommending it or they only putting out feelers to local parties and ask what what we feel about it? [Helen:] No.... [Andy:] associated with for example you're party. [Neil:] Oh that's just a mailshot deal. They quite likely the Green Party got a free mailshot and their communication returned or or even might have got some money from them you never know. [Bob:] I thought this sort of thing would be something the Green Party nationally should decide that whether in principle we ought to affiliate with. [Helen:] Yeah but the advice might not have gone amiss and [Andy:] Yes surprising that War on Want aren't asking the national party [Bob:] Yeah. [Andy:] and instead are mailshotting all the local parties. I think it may be it may be that they could perhaps get more money if the local parties affiliated separately but... [Bob:] What about our links formal or informal with other York branches of other [Helen:] Yeah I mean this is this is erm more the sort of thing that I I had in mind. [Bob:] Yeah. [Helen:] Erm I think I mean we ought to be doing more with the local Friends of the Earth and local Greenpeace I feel. In the past Greenpeace have always rejected us and er on the grounds that in fact we're a political party. And Friends of the Earth it's only relatively new it's only been going properly for what two years. [Andy:] And this could be [Helen:] Yeah. We are getting on very well with the student green movements. Both of which are also non-political so that's that's a good step forward. Erm [Ste (yes, Ste):] We've been concentrating a lot maintain the links with the with the university and the St James. Erm [clears throat] a lot of our members who were students in York stay on and and become you know active or in other parts of the country when they move on. It's very good good erm good thing for the party and they're usually quite starved of practical campaigning ideas and so we regularly try every at least every year to go and do a tour and erm we've been giving them we we're trying to rope them in on the various activities because they're crying out for [Andy:] Poor Steve walking into the meeting at St James and there were about twenty people in the room and you said, This is the [LAUGHTER] green meeting isn't it []? [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Ste (yes, Ste):] I can't believe it there's too many people. They're they're both by a fluke at the moment they're both very strong. They went into a quiet period a few years ago it was very quiet erm but er yes they're they're going strong. We have informal links or have had er our main contact has just left. I've been trying to liaise with the Save our Forests which is and forestry privatization and technically I'm on the committee. But my other commitments prevent me from turning up to their committee meetings now so erm I'm sort of stepping back on to I'm just on to their mailing list. But the orig the whole idea behind that was really to to keep the Green Party's finger on the pulse with that. Get people along get the information networked and also to to maintain a political presence amongst the people who are writing to to or potentially to vote for us. Erm because the the national policy is obviously to target the green movement erm as our natural constituency. Erm and the only way we're going to raise a profile with them is by is by making sure that whenever can we support their actions. [Neil:] Anybody seen this? [Andy:] Can I suggest that we wind up the meeting and er. [Ste (yes, Ste):] Yeah thanks for thanks for facilitating Andy that's great. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Has your group finished those sentences? [speaker002:] No. Erm. Yes. [speaker001:] Pat, has your group finished those sentences? [speaker002:] I've finished mine, but I don't know [speaker001:] Right. [LAUGHTER] Mark. [speaker002:] Yes, what, [speaker001:] Would you like to do number one. [speaker002:] Er, [LAUGHTER] I put in between the n and s on fisherman's. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er, E s, e and s of cottages. Yeah. Er, and one between searchlights t and s. [speaker001:] T and s of searchlights, the n, the n and the s of fisherman's, the e and the s of cottage's, and the t and the s of searchlight's. Put your hands up if you got it right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Let that me a lesson to you. Ben, number two. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] serves you right. Yeah, one between n and s of men's. [speaker001:] Shh. One between n and s of men's. [speaker002:] And between n and s of children's, and d and s in ward's. [speaker001:] Right. N and s and men's, n and s in children's and d and s in wards. Put your hands up if you got that right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh dear, it would erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] manage to confuse you utterly, [speaker002:] Yes, you did, so. [speaker001:] Erm, right. Would you like to do number three. [speaker002:] Erm, after the s in books, erm, after the s in libraries and after the s in librarians. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think it's definitely got to be after the s in books, as it sounds as if there's more than one of them. Libraries is obviously plural so it's got to go after the s. And librarians depends on whether you think there's one or more than one, and it's not clear, in the sense as you say. [speaker002:] Did you take hang on, could you do the same with fishermen's, could they not have an apostrophe after the s. [speaker001:] No. Fishermen [speaker002:] more than one. [speaker001:] Men is clearly plural, isn't it. [speaker002:] So So what about cottages. [speaker001:] Because when the word doesn't end in s, when the plural doesn't end in s, as it doesn't in men, women and children, and sheep. You er, put an apostrophe and then you put an s on. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker001:] It's when the plural word doesn't end in s. [speaker002:] What about cottages. [speaker001:] Cottages. Let's see [speaker002:] Put an apostrophe after the s, So e apostrophe [speaker001:] After the s. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] 'Cos there's more than one of them, isn't there. [speaker002:] That's what we did, that's what we did. [speaker001:] Oh, did I say that was wrong. [speaker002:] But you said that was wrong. [speaker001:] Oh, sorry, Number one it should be erm, [speaker002:] After the s. [speaker001:] Yes, after the s, this is obvious, more than one cottage, sorry [speaker002:] What about, what about the children's. What's that, plural isn't it. That's apostrophe s. Yes. [speaker001:] Yes, [speaker002:] Yeah, I'm with you. [speaker001:] yes, that's right. Yeah. Erm, right, who'd like to do the last one, Tracey. [speaker002:] Erm, both teachers, apostrophe between the r and the s of teachers. Yeah. apostrophe between the d and s of husband. I wouldn't agree. I wouldn't know. [LAUGHTER] I think it's [speaker001:] Go on what do you think. [speaker002:] I think er, it's apostrophe after the s of classes, after the s in teachers, and after, after the s in husbands and after the s in schools... 'cos they're all plural plural. Classes is isn't it. [speaker001:] Cla yes, classes yes, isdefinitely plural, isn't it, because the singular is [spelling] C L A S S [] [speaker002:] And it's e apostrophe. And it's more than one teacher, because it's [speaker001:] Helen, Helen hang on. Classes, is a plural word that ends in s, so you put the apostrophe after the s. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right Helen, plural word that ends in s. The apostrophe goes after. When the word, the words plural, that does not end in s, and there's just a minority of cases, then it's apostrophe followed by s. [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] Okay. Got it. [LAUGHTER] Right, classes is definitely plural, so it's definitely got to go after the s, and therefore it sounds as if teachers is going to be plural, doesn't it. [speaker002:] 'Cos there's more than one. [speaker001:] Sounds as if we're talking about more than one teacher. [speaker002:] more than one wife, anyway, can you. [speaker001:] Hopefully not. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well, hang on a second, we're not talking about putting an apostrophe on wives are we, for goodness sake. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Because they don't own anything. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So let's put an apostrophe on the s of teachers... and then husbands is clearly plural because the teachers were plural, and we th, we talking in plurals, so after the s in husbands. With school, erm, it depends on whether you're talking about, were they're both teachers in one school, in which case, if you understood that way, it's the apostrophe before the s, and if you understood it, er, teachers in several schools, then you'd have put to the apostrophe after s. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] I should think it sounds as if they're both teaching in the same school, myself, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I I would have put the apostrophe between the l and the s, but erm, I'd be prepared to, I'd be persuaded that it wasn't crystal clear. Okay. Now the two little things in boxes at the bottom, just reiterates what I've said. It's with an apostrophe is an abbreviation for it is, because you never, and I I think those three little rules there only apply only nouns have an apostrophe, pronouns never have an apostrophe and it's only nouns ending in s, have an apostrophe and it's only when they own the thing that follows, except when they, when they don't end with an s, but you know the exception of men's, women's, children's and sheep. Er, are, exceptions. Right, well I didn't expect it to take that long to the apostrophe. Erm, you must be honest about this, er, is anybody feel clearer about these, the apostrophe, than they did half an hour ago. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Would you be kind enough to just raise your hand in the air if you feel a little bit clearer. You can be honest and put your hand in the air if you feel more confused than ever. Stuart does. [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] But, I I don't really think I could make it any clearer, but you need to, perhaps take it home and go through it again, and think about it and see if you can understand it, you know, in the quiet of your own bedroom, plus is a very useful time to try and learn things. If you turn over. [speaker002:] it was heart searching [speaker001:] Turn over. This is just, I'm not going to through these exercises, this is an exercise on the apostrophe to show, not possession this time, but that letters have been left out of words. I think you know all this. You you you drop the letter and put the apostrophe where the letter would have been, had you not removed it. So, all that you need to think, to remember things like, don't, is that it's do not, and you've got to put the apostrophe in where the letter's been missed. So... if you follow that, it shouldn't, shouldn't cause you a problem. Erm, but the one thing to remember is when your writing a formal essay, in an exam situation, don't use the shortened form. The only time you're likely to be using it, is, if your writing an essay, where you going to use conversation, to make it realistic, people do abbreviate in a conversation, or if you're asked to write in an informal way. So those, the only, the only exceptions. So, generally avoid using contractions in an exam essay, unless you're asked to it in an informal way. Okay, that's the apostrophe. The next sheet is on commas. [speaker002:] [talk in background] [speaker001:] Commas... Right, are you ready for quick gallop through commas. Martin, are you ready Good, people use commas much too often, and some they don't use them at all. But especially when they put them at the end of a sentence where they should be putting a full stop. There are some, however, sorry, there are, comma, however, comma, please note, some situations where commas are necessary if you're going to write clearly. First they are used to show a pause, between parts of a sentence, which makes it for example, when you start off with a subordinate clause, after I'd cashed my Giro comma I went to the shops and bought some food, or, because of the derailment comma all the trains were running late. technical, to think of it technically, it's when your sentence starts with a subordinate clause. When it comes to the end of that subordinate clause, you need a comma to separate it from the main clause, which is then going to follow. Another use of the comma, is on either side of a word or phrase which could be left out of a sentence. For instance, my sister comma who works in a green grocers comma said she saw her with Kim last night. So, the fact that who works in the green grocers is just a bit of additional information, it's not necessary for the the main part of the sentence, you can take it out and it's not going to take, make any difference to the construction or the meaning of the sentence, it's a bit of additional information. Or, you will need comma, amongst other things comma, three bricks and a length of rope. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What you have to remember is [LAUGHTER] that you need a pair of commas and not just one. Some words are often used between commas like he comma, too comma, was embarrassed and this one in particularly, please, tomorrow comma, however comma, snows is expected, and don't try to use however as a conjunction, 'cos it isn't. And it will, if you, at the beginning of the sentence, however, it's got a comma after it, before you go on to the rest of the sentence. If you use it in the middle, it's got to have commas both sides of it. [speaker002:] Is it the same for therefore. [speaker001:] The same thing happens with therefore, and the same thing happens with nevertheless. You also use commas between items in a list. You bought three apples comma, a banana comma, a bicycle pump and a walking stick, and you don't need the comma... when you use and. So it's commas between the items on the list, except for the last two where you're using and. Okay. Got it. Now try the sentences... [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] and see if you can agree as a group, on where you're putting them, and don't be too influenced by people that might be wrong... [speaker002:] But I have been up all night comma, too tired, but I was really homesick. [speaker001:] really there's one after night, but you don't need after, one after tired, just carry straight on. [speaker002:] But it's a normal [speaker001:] James, it must be your turn to... [speaker002:] Since my operation I haven't looked back comma, although maybe because I can't move my leg. Ah. [speaker001:] And erm, number three. [speaker002:] As I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one which was in an hour's time. [speaker001:] Has anyone got a comma after one. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. I got, oh I sort of like to use two and then cross out the wrong one. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Going to write a little note to the examiner, aren't you. Please examiner, please whichever was right. I like that one. Erm, I think I'd be inclined to put a comma after one, the next one, because it's a bit of additional information [speaker002:] train, [speaker001:] the train in an hour's time. [speaker002:] no train [speaker001:] Oh yes, as I, as I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one comma, [speaker002:] Yeah, but wouldn't that make it possible to take that out, and then it wouldn't make sense, 'cos it would say, as I missed the train which went in an hour's time... if you put another comma, 'cos if you, if you put two commas you couldn't take it out. [speaker001:] Your main sentence,yo the main clause is, I decided to catch the next one. Additional information really, is, as I had missed the train comma, but it's, er, you've got to have a comma after train, because it's following that rule that was given in the top left hand corner, after I cashed my Giro... comma, because of the derailment comma, it's it's that rule, it's the application of that rule. [speaker002:] Well, I think you need one after [speaker001:] After subordinate [speaker002:] Do you need one after the next one, 'cos which sticks one, which [speaker001:] Well, without getting too technical about it, I think you ought to have a comma after one because in the erm,y you know, the erm, blurb they gave you on the left hand side, that would apply what you've learnt on the left hand side. [speaker002:] I see, right. [speaker001:] But, ask me another day, when I've got a bit more time. There is a, an occasion when you wouldn't have a comma in front of that relative pronoun. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It depends whether you can take the information, or whether the information is the essential part... and it's a bit of a fine line there, actually. [speaker002:] Yes, it is. [speaker001:] In number four, erm, I can't see anybody who hasn't done one, so erm, Martin, have the pleasure of doing this last one. [speaker002:] first comma, sitting never really understood which means [speaker001:] Right. Er, definitely after evidence, and definitely after Right. I'm not going to go through the erm, passage at the bottom, but I'd like you to have a go at it and will go over it on Friday. [talk in background] Hang on, I haven't finished yet. Turn over. [turning over pages] Today gallop very quickly through, people often use a comma instead of a full stop. Which is what a lot of still do, Martin included. You use a comma to show a pause in a sentence, but a full stop shows that a sentence has finished. How do you know if you're at the end of a sentence. It's what you've written a a complete idea in itself, and does it have a main verb. If the answer to both questions is yes, then it's a sentence, put a full stop. Okay, look at this one. James. Yesterday, I bought a new video comma, it was great. Is wrong, because the comma is between two sentences. Each, it's not a phrase, it's each clause is a sentence, because it's a complete idea. Yesterday I bought a video. End of idea. Second idea. It was great, and therefore you need a full stop between the two. It's... Stuart, instead of using a full stop between the two short sentences, you could use a conjunction to join them together, which would give you one sentence. Yesterday I bought a new video and it was great. Otherwise, you could use a pronoun as a joining word, so you could use a pronoun and use which. Yesterday I bought a new video which was great. Okay. Normally, you would use which to join sentences about things and who or which to join sentences about people. about conjunctions that you looked at on Friday. Okay. Some sentences, quick, quick, quick sort them out, please. Put the full stops in where Martin [speaker002:] Please return the cups to the counter full stop. [speaker001:] number four. [speaker002:] comma [speaker001:] yes, Helen, sorry, Helen. [speaker002:] There's no point in talking about it full stop. All we do, all we do is argue full stop. Can you put because. [speaker001:] Sorry. [speaker002:] Can you put because. Because all we do is argue. [speaker001:] Yes, it, if you're being simple about it. It just said put full stops where they are needed. Th th the the advancement on the exercise is to make them one sentence by using, yes, you could use a conjunction if you were going to make it into one sentence. Right then, last one, please. [speaker002:] Erm. [LAUGHTER] Working in the theatre isn't all fun full stop. A lot of it's hard work. [speaker001:] It's [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Instead of, instead of using a full stop, you could use a conjunction. There is another possibility that they haven't mentioned because the book hasn't come on to deal with it yet, but you should know what it is. [speaker002:] Is it the colon. [speaker001:] You could use the semicolon. But what you mustn't use is the comma. Alright. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Okay, we'll continue this [paper rustling] keep these sheets. Bring them to the next lesson. Thank you very much.

[speaker001:] Ladies and gentlemen, chairman er at eighteen minutes to two er my colleagues and I were in interview with the Liberal Democrat er Group er for this so called discussion. Er we left at er seventeen minutes to two erm having explained that er we have put a very respectable budget on the table er which was prudence as prudence personified er and that was something we felt the other two groups of the Liberal Democrats were the only ones there at the time er besides them do that we'd er I have to say to chairman that er the voted it is now being cobbled together er by the other two groups is eight hundred thousand pounds plus er in excess of the budget which the Conservative Group would want to see and just for the record, it's about the same sum of money that we've been saving on the fire cover in [LAUGHTER]. [Charles:] er which goodness erm, we believe that we are spending substantial sums of money in areas of traffic calming town and parks and and various other areas that have er been er touched upon er we do not think it would be prudent to [speaker001:] [sneeze]. [Charles:] spend over and above what we have already indicated and therefore we oppose the budget that has now been put forward by the other two groups. [speaker003:] Thank you. Mr. [speaker004:] Yes it would, it would not be properly to, to just make one comment and that is that the next five hundred thousand that the local is therefore two point six million from the reserve fund, that is substainable for two and a half years... it is not substainable beyond. [speaker001:] County Council Officer. [speaker003:] Well thank you let's call in er resolution number two that's on the er pre-paid ground. Can I have those who are in favour please.... [speaker001:] twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. [speaker003:] And those against? [speaker001:] one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. [speaker003:] And resolution number six, committee request a withdrawal of two point six million from the structural maintenance fund. All those in favour? [speaker001:] eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, eighteen [speaker003:] Those against... er we want to er item number three.... Er car boot sales, chairman have been passed. Thank you chairman. [speaker001:] Er car boot sales chairman have been erm increasing steadily in recent years and er in terms of number and er Hertfordshire are no longer the charitable events. People going with a few items from their attic. They've now frequented by an increasing proportion of traders in assumes in many cases a market type of status. They're part of the changing retail scene which ranges from the modern shopping centres at one end of the spectrum to squat shops, short term let shops and car boot sales at the other, for the other less source of er retailing, source of purchasing from a decreasing number of people erm trade in car boot sales are subject to the same controls as high street traders basically be product safety, erm, but as well as those problems we are increasingly coming across other problems in particularly counterfeit goods, goods like that on sale at car boot sales, quite attractive, wholly illegal and it won't be out for about six or nine months yet. But normally, but er the, they are for just that sort of product. Er Trading Standards Officers have been helping the police have made a large number of visits to sales in recent months targetting those where we know or suspect there will be concentration of counterfeiter goods and these stolen items we've been taking and seizing items, we've been making inspections and er we will also be distributing some leaflets to try and advise people of some of the risks and dangers that face them at this sort of event. The report, for the local authorities reports mentioned in the committee item is an attempt to give me the subject of car boot sales a fairly wide airing. An airing that had gone [cough] quite away beyond just trading standards issues to cover for example, things like fund control, matters are concerned with the district council and er environmental issues erm and I am able to anxious to get some views from authorities including the County Council so that it can form a debate and discussion with central government about possible wa, was forward. There are two specific issues of interest er I would like to refer to, first is resola resolution one, six small one. It is on the face of it a very simple amendment to a quite a small and in some sense insignificant piece of legislation that isn't, erm I hope members would agree that by changing that piece of legislation to say that if you're a trader you must display who you are and how people can get hold of you if the have a problem about products they buy from you, will not be too burdensome erm in these days of deregulation and so forth but on the other hand would help enforcements considerably and would also enable people to pursue their own remedies where they are dissatisfied with what they bought. I think generally speaking that would er formalise and er increase the er way in which markets and boot sales operated. The second point er chairman is that one particular solution adopted by a couple of County Councils the one in particular has been to have a local act requiring registration of car boot sales which gives enforcement officers a chance to know they're going to happen and it also requires display of names and addresses not suggesting it is not entirely suggest that is here but late last night we simply felt we want to talk about the possibility of a framework enabling this legislation which will allow that to happen on national basis oh, as a way of controlling this, this sort of activity. Erm in conclusion Chairman there's two, two comments are made, we have been receiving a, a number of complaints about car boot sales some unfortunately have been from consumers who've bought things and er have been er unhappy about what they've bought -often on the safety side. And increasingly complaints from businesses, complaints about unfair competition, erm the second point is that the, the report has been sent to vote upon now, but also to a number of er business and consumer organisations in the county a range of views is being expressed in response, as you'd expect, but in general terms most recognised there are particular trading, trend and pattern which needs to be addressed erm but most have all especially with the er display of this same as registration some form of registration must on the national basis would be erm a, a solution to this support. Thank you Chairman. [speaker003:] Miss. [speaker005:] I should like to propose that Labour resolution on this issue erm in order to address the problems caused by a car boot sales, we feel that a national scheme is needed requiring resis resu sorry registration in advance of an event by boot sale organisers and registration of individual traders at boot sales. So could be designed to allow this to make a profit by empting out their attic, without the requirement of registration once the insurers and professional traders was registered. The registration of traders in secondhand goods could then to keep records then of items bought and sold. This minimizing the risk of, the risk of stolen property being traded. Traffic congestion and parking problems caused by car boot sales could be reduced if the police were forewarned thus alleviating the considerable distress suffered by people living near to car boot sales sites. A registration scheme would allow scope for exchanging information between the the local authority and the police. Registration of events would also allow local authorities to refuse the use of the unsuitable sites or prevent the abuse of the current laws which allow boot sales on each site for a maximum of fourteen days per year. As er already mentioned some local authorities have already implemented such schemes by going to the expense of introducing private legislation through parliament. We would like to see the regulation of car boot sales implemented on a national basis, building on a current good practice. We cannot see how self regulation schemes could be expected to work as neither car boot sale organisers or the traders involved are part of any coherent organisation. Combined with the suggested resolution one and including our amendment of the addition of the word enforcement, these strategies would offer much greater protection to the consumer minimizing disturbance to residents and reducing unfair competition and I would like to recommend that these views be communicated to as the views of this county council, thank you. [speaker003:] Thank you Miss is your resolution for the. [speaker001:] I object er er yes I would like to, I would like to er second the resolutions, this, there is er, there is er a certainly a great deal of concern within the community both those er who live within reach of, of, of, of car boot sale erm er sites in particular the ones that are regular and also the people who attend them and get ripped off, that we need to do something about er bringing er the er, er at to add, add to law into range of, of the people who of, of people who er er of of people who er sell er of people who sell those goods at these at these functions. Er there's obviously concern about the one off and the er charitable events... er ha had had er er act actually, actually that I, I, I, I, think some of the comments of, of both Mr and that he and of er of the mover if there if there trans, if there trans, transmitted er er would actually largely deal with those er, er concerned so I'm, I'm very happy to second. [speaker003:] Mr. [speaker006:] Thank you Mr Chairman erm from the Conservative side we would erm be happy to accept the two labour er resolutions erm as, as on the paper as erm I, I would ask that er perhaps with a spirit of co-operation and I think we all agree on this subject. If members would accept the additional resolution which stands in my name erm which reads this is what we'd copied to all district councils and they would be made aware of the county council's views on the matter. Chairman erm I know from my own experience elsewhere that er car boot sales are a cause of great concern and I, I won't repeat what various other small local firms have said because I agree with all their comments. Erm the element of control side of it, is extremely frustrating and have have been hinted at by previous speakers to see what are in effect regular and truly massive retail operations going on without development control, without the development of any kind of highway controls which is a county council matter is fully my argue frustrating. I would also like to erm ask that erm that we do have everything we can to ensure that where this council has the possibility as erm landowner or property owner or whatever that we prevent or certainly discourage the use of such property for car boot sales and I had in mind sales that are taking place based on erm education property and in the case of Hatfield we were able to persuade the relevant authorities to er cause the car boot sale to cease but that particular car boot sale was causing great damage to the legitimate traders in both the Hatfield market and the Hatfield town centre. So there's an economic development argument to all of this as well and I do hope er county will be able to co-operate in that respect. I would ask you to accept the, the additional Conservative erm resolutions. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr, Mr. [speaker005:] Formally second. [speaker003:] Thank you Miss, Miss. [speaker007:] Oh I, I support that, what people have said, I just would like to now say a word though for people that actually run car boot sales. I mean that they're a valuable source of fund raising in the schools for example, erm and I would not, they are also a valuable source of fund raising people that need to raise money to buy their kids Christmas presents and so on, you know, I mean people, they're not all market traders or people shifting stolen goods at car boot sales. There are people who are genuinely trying to make money for themselves and their families at car boot sales, so I think, you know, I don't, I wouldn't like to see them stamped on altogether. I agree that it is useful to know who's actually running the stall in case you you've got knocked off. Since I've recently had my car radio stolen I'm quite in favour of them not being sold at the car boot sales perhaps somebody would like to returns it to me but erm, the, you know, I'm er you know they do need some restr, some legislation but I wouldn't want them to be legislated out of existence. The other thing is too that erm perhaps the police could en a bit more vigorously enforce the parking. If you go to see this football club to watch the football match, you are not allowed to park on the grass verge outside because the police don't let you but if you go to a car boot sale at the football club the next day the cars, the grass verge is littered with cars cos it's Sunday presumably and the police are not allowed to enforce on it so I do think that some of the traffic problems maybe need to be more carefully reinforced to stop this, you know, to stop the dealers you're not going tyo these places but you know I think you do need to, you do need to, to regulate them but please, you know, don't let's push them out altogether. [speaker003:] Thank you Miss, er Mr [Charles:] Chairman I'll try and be brief er I think the problem with the car boot sales is that they have been er hi-jacked commercially er it seems a good idea it's, it's another line another way of disposing of goods whether they're straight goods or whether they're they're er misappropriated goods or whatever. Er and I think that er that's part of the problem that we have. I must say erm I, I do wonder whether the district council might be enabled to say unless goods are sold from a car boot this is not a car boot sale er, therefore, we would put a ban on all commercial vans and vehicle entering these sites er that's not being articles described in the er in the er maybe that's something you could look at. I am concerned and I have mentioned briefly to Mr erm something which was er said to me by a local resident who've read the paper this morning that British Rail are gonna start using their car parks to hold er car boot sales. Erm this can only exasasberate er an already difficult situation chairman, I do wonder whether the, the people that British Rail are trying to attract to use the service and, and do bear in mind that this County Council recently voted ten thousand pounds in subsidies er to er towards British Rail to enable people to travel on a Sunday. Now what happens when you go to the station on a Sunday to park your car and find all the spaces are taken up by a car boot, er the whole think is a nonsense and er frankly somebody should tell British Rail so er I wonder if this is Chairman a shot across the bows of er rail privat privatisation and if it is I welcome it. Erm [speaker001:] [hiss]. [Charles:] and erm, but I I have to say that I, I do believe that we need to address more particularly er the transport a aspects of this and the planning aspects of it which, I think er are tending to get eased out of the er agenda, any way, if I may say er in respect of trading standards and the legal aspects of er the, the er produce that's being sold there. [speaker003:] Thank you er Mr. [speaker004:] I'll be brief chairman er first of all can I say we would accept the chairman, the conservative resolution; turning to Labour resolution number two we would ask that you take on board to grant a er sales run by schools and other legitimate charities. I don't know if that is acceptable to you, er, if, if that's the case then if we will then except.... [speaker003:] Right now we have Mr. [speaker008:] Erm thank you Mr Chairman, [clears throat] high up in the Cardiganshire coast near, on the trunk road between and where the population is the sparsest in Wales and certainly a. There are hundreds of people gathering every Sunday morning for a car boot sale [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker008:] they are very very popular indeed [speaker001:] not with us! [speaker008:] of course the same thing happens in Hatfield which is done within about a stones throw literally fifty yards of that field market and town centre and such like and it's very unpopular. Erm it is a social gathering and whether people get er, er get rooked er, they get done or whether they get a bargain or whatever happens, they, they seem to enjoy it, but nevertheless it's done according to whether you want to make money, the person owning the land wants to make a bit of money, there are a number of entrepeneurs who actually arrange and the middleman who actually goes round booking up the sites and so when you're talking about charity a charity will get it organised for you by an entre, entrepeneur and then there's the er the er the traders themselves, some of whom may be purely independent, some the, some may be obviously dealing with that ta erm that kind of aspect which is not exactly possibly legal. It's the planning aspect that's difficult, people er, jolly well [clears throat] well people do sell their bodies in the street, people do sing in the street, people make music in the street. I mean it's it's happened and I was ha I was so interested in the subject that I asked Mr for a copy of the report where it goes back in the history and of course it is the history of trading standards and, and so on. Nevertheless there ought to be some control somewhere and we're getting back to what I think Richard said was the original idea of some kind of development control that is a popular thing in order to be allowed, people ought to make money for the various charities and so on, we ought to try and prevent er certain unjust practices going on and so on. So that the social, the social idea in the towns and people can gather in a market place and do what they will without too much trouble, but nevertheless and immediately you try to restrict, we, we run into trouble, but we must protect the people and that's the purpose for the trading standards. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr. Mr. [speaker009:] Thank you Mr Chairman, I, I've got a certain amount of experience in the subject because we got quite a big one in our village. In actual fact the er farmer put the planning application in to hold this market every week really refused it outright saying it's a very sensitive area of Green belt and we didn't want two hundred er stalls there every Sunday on the car park coming out of the road and everything else. He won that actually on appeal because he said he needed to raise the funds for a project he'd got in mind and they allowed him twenty eight days in the first year, he now carries on fourteen days without planning permission every year, but give him credit he does run it very well, er and you cannot fault him, but we in our area do actually issue licences, you cannot have a car boot sale or market stall without a licence and I personally have run the charity markets in er the village high street and got a licence at the cost of a pound. On that licence you have to indicate when you're going to have erm this market, you have to indicate how many stalls, how many people you expect to attract, the times you're gonna be open and you have to give a months notice. Therefore if you issue a licence like this the local authorities can check up, market people can god own and make sure it's not getting out of hand and the local police know the sort of traffic to expect and therefore can control. So if we could use, insist on issuing licences, that would go a long way to sorting some of these of these problems out. Thank you. [speaker003:] Thank you, erm before we go to the vote er Mr will you accept that er the third line down from the second resolution er made for the national licensing of all registration scheme will cover the amendment you wanted to put on to the labour resolution. [speaker004:] I would actually like to insist on the resolution. [speaker003:] Miss are you willing to accept the amendment? [speaker007:] Could I say that we'd be willing perhaps that the Conservative amendment first of all, and then to turn to the amendment by the Liberal democrats erm I would like to suggest that schools or other charities, not just schools are exempt from any registration charge but will still notify the local authority in, in advance of an event, because events held at schools or by charities still create problems with traffic and parking and congestion [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker007:] the same way as they any profit making event. I hope that's acceptable [speaker001:] Can I say something? Yes that will go [speaker003:] So if we organize amendments and resolutions is everyone agreed [speaker001:] we agreed [speaker003:] Thank you very much,... er perhaps now, we'll move on to item four. tea now? Thank you. [speaker001:] Yes [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Right we'll now go for tea thank you,... can I call you to order please and make a start on item number four.... I hand you over to Mr [speaker007:] Thank you Chairman, last environment committee er, you asked for updates on the position of the service, these are the last years I have managed to inspect the reports the service. And before you, you have that update what I am trying to do is to list all of the recommendations we obtained in respect of the report and they are actually three -one, to three -twenty and then we put paragraph two on each of those recommendations to bring you up to date on what the service is doing. I don't intend to go through all of theos recommendations hopefully er a fairly time I'll having same questions on them. I do hope the members will recognise that the service has not be sitting on its laurels er between inspectors' reports but that we have been modelling on one quarterly to er correct any omissions with respect to boundary or to make the necessary improvements in the service erm as, as recommended by the inspect and supported by members. In paragraph four, page six, we do make a small point about the financial implications er on of course that has been resolved because of er the resolution carried forward in the budget debate and a note there about central training which I could er just, just explain slowly because I have had a number of questions about this. What that refers to is that we do have a contract with the fire service college and we are satisfied with the resources we are committing to training at the moment and should any more be necessary at any time we will bring that back to members. I don't at this moment, envisage that the need for any further resources in this area. Thank you Chairman. [speaker003:] Thank you, are there any questions? [speaker001:] Mr erm Chairman thank you, erm, para three, fourteen, the recommendation there was er, er the cause for some anxiety and concern. I wonder if the Chief Fire Officer can er add anything further on that. [Charles:] Yes sir, the, you'll recall that carrying out this re this particular review to finalise the er fire safety review and members have accepted the recommendations from that in which sought to ignore that although we have an limited number of specialists inspecting officers that we widened the remit of all employees in the Fire and Rescue Service so that all er operational fire fighters carried out some form of inspection, thereby producing a higher work output than before. We recognised through that review that to train all those people to do the work we would have to use the officers specialist inspectors and therefore those specialist inspectors would be carrying out less inspections during this year because they'd actually be carrying out some training. Therefore our overall results would be down, there would be a downward trend in that. We have er found that to be the case there is a downward trend, but I do make the point, and I did make the point to the inspectors notwithstanding that, all of our respecting officers bar those that were doing the training of course do produce a higher work output per individual than most of our peers up and down the country and we have statis statistical evidence to support that. The inspector was pleased to receive that, noting the fact that we had a, a drop in our work output but expected that, that would go up in the next year or two. [speaker003:] Mr. [speaker001:] Er Chairman, yes, if I may just make a couple of, of, of, of, of, comments on, on, on the report side, I, I very much welcome the report back which I think has clarified a number of areas in the inspector's report and what the services are actually, actually are doing about this one, I think er overall it's er it, it, it's, it's very, it's very er it's very er very useful to see er what has been done erm I, I, I, I, I've been assured by the Chief Officer er on item, item er, item three one at the top of page two, that the operational plans being devolved to individual sch will not apply to operational activity, they will be er to separate activity within the s er sch station, erm I did raise that because I was concerned about one station saying yes we will attend the fire and another one saying we won't, which obviously is not appropriate er but with that caveat I, I, I, very much welcome the report, I would like to move the proposals sch standing in, in, in, in, in my name that we commend the report as well as er er what's on the officer's erm er, er, er recomen er the re the recommended er resolution and that we send a copy of that, this [cough]. to her majesty's sch inspector so that er they could be aware of, of, of the action that the service er as has, has, has taken. I'd like to move that erm er that amendment together with the officer's original er resolution. [speaker003:] . [speaker005:] I take great pleasure in being able to second this amendment. Here in Hertfordshire we have a fire and rescue service, that we can quite rightly be as proud of as the fire fighters we surveyed are. I'm particularly please to see the that we've found ways of removing artificial obstacles to the recruitment of whole time and retained fire fighters and I look forward to seeing women amongst ten new fire fighters recommended in this report. [speaker001:] Here, here. [speaker005:] Most of the public don't often think about the Fire Service until they actually need it but I am sure they will welcome fire fighters, not only improved our confidence in the service but theirs as well. [speaker003:] Mr do you wish to. Right thank you Mr Chairman erm I welcome the report and erm it's good to see that er the observations of the inspector have been taken on board and professionally addressed, erm I've come to expect that, take that for granted from er Chief Officers. We have the finest peo band of men looking after our fire service so I have never had any doubt, I didn't really need this report to tell me, but it is nice to see it written down, to see just exactly what they're doing. I am particularly er pleased to see the I T provisions at three two and elsewhere in the report the training for the business plan has been given to the staff. I think that erm, erm I hope Mr will agree with me, we, we can go away well satisfied with what our what our, our Chief Officers, his staff have done and will welcome them,wel welcome the report. Mr Chairman I would like to move the resolution in standing in the Conservatives' name I would say that I would hope that erm the other side would er join with us in voting that through and certainly have no problem with the relevant resolution that Mr put forward. Is that formally seconded? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes Chairman I'd like to second that and just to erm say very briefly that er erm I, I very much welcome the report and the speed with which the Chief Officer is seen to have addressed most of the issues there are one or two bits that, that were of course were in fact posters, posters er be dealt with erm I have to say I still have some concern erm that the Chief Fire Officer and his team are so well supported on a very broad front on their decision making and their professionalism and yet on other matters of sound advice which has been given by er who are turned aside and just simply not given the proper consideration that they should have as in that er respect Chairman and I, I, I have some concern, erm it, it would not surprise me indeed if the, Her Majesty's Inspector of er er brigades, when he comes round himself, has some comment to make on that since I think he's expectations as well are almost as high as mine is. [speaker003:] Mr. [speaker001:] Mr Chairman may I sch speak to the Conservatives amendment and ask what is meant by B.... precisely Mr Chairman if I could answer that the, the, the [clears throat] once the inspector comes back to the Fire Service and reports again and he is due back in June, we will then look at the matters he raises at that time and he will look at the progress report er what, what has happened since his last inspection and then we will have the opportunity to look at what the Inspector has, has to say after his visits, not very far away er, their Chief Officer will go on with this programme [cough] implementing the recommendations made in the report that you have before you and er we we would like to see a report back which we will do anyway erm after the Inspector has visited and discussed it. [cough] But Chairman if I may [cough] I'm slightly concerned about this because it said that other matters erm we don't know what other matters until the inspector has been in, in June and has identified those other matters, presumably when we get the further inspector's report next Autumn or after June, it will address issues which may have been ones he has addressed this year and maybe not, er and we will have to look at that inspector's report when we receive it. But until we do I can't see that we can pass something which refers to something we know nothing about. [speaker003:] Mr. [Charles:] I am something else. If we say we'll wait until after the inspectors' reports again, and then we'll consider that, we do that any way -that's not necessary. What I was if any other matter comes into light before it comes in we don't do anything about it and that's why I would oppose that because of this because one it's not necessary to move something that we would look at it and sit back and after the inspector reports. What I'm against is the inference that we don't put any other matters erm that comes up on the subject if it arose prior to the to June. [speaker001:] I think there's a little bit of misapprehension Chairman on Mr, Mr er I don't think you can trust when we come to a, a Too right. a fire er policy and so on. There's nothing difficult about a whole stream of, of er comments were raised by the inspector Mr team are, have addressed a large number of them, have told us what they propose to do to deal with a number of er and, and I believe that there will be things left over when he's finished that, that he won't be able to resolve er perhaps er without the people that help the Committee er or some of us are always suggesting is that er those things that he is unsuccessful in resolving erm be identified and so that er when, when the er the Inspector makes his er his next report we can see just, just why that some of these other items there have weren't able to be addressed. It's as simple as that. Don't read too much into it, it's all innocent stuff of course. [speaker003:] Thank you Simon Mrs. Thank you Chairman I, I actually agreed with those not so much that erm I, I have problems with erm other matters, it is more extra to be examined and because it actually says that it has to be examined once, and will therefore be re-examined erm, erm I am sure if it should be examined they have to put exact what it means examine in and before and as you say er you will be the first to say. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] oh oh oh. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] I will proceed to take a, take the votes on the first the Labour motion. But I promise I. All those agreed? [speaker001:] Agreed, agreed. [speaker003:] Er then secondly with the Conservative resolution, I. [speaker001:] I wonder, Chairman, if we can take this as A and B? [speaker003:] Okay so well, take, take A then first [speaker001:] Agreed [speaker003:] Right B, page four [speaker001:] One, two, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. [speaker003:] And those against please [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, yeah eleven.... Come up with the goods we'll trust you. [speaker003:] How many votes I. [speaker001:] Three.... [LAUGHTER]. [speaker004:] I'd like to say Mr Chairman, can I ask how many members. Erm, this, this report erm on recycling. Erm is before you to confirm on er Council and I'd like to start by saying very briefly that there is as you know a government legal distinction between the er the operational side of waste disposal and the regulation side, and properly er issues on recycling have been referred er and decisions on that should be referred to the policy committee but er we work very closely with officer's before you hear us er request it. There are three issues that we wish to be discussed, they were about erm the recycling of compostable garden waste, waste building materials and dry packages and in the report we've addressed each of those in turn and said something about er [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker004:] that can be used for actually doing, doing the recycling on each of those, and and I would like to say that that this, this report had been erm prepared jointly by officers of the Transportation Department who were responsible for the operational side and wi and the officers and regulation side of, of the Authority Planning Environment Department and therefore the comments in the air have been shared between erm both sides er what I would like to say is that as well as the recycling activities which are carried out in our household waste facilities of glass, paper, waste -oil, etc., er there are we have in the last twelve months started two initiatives which I think will fall in into erm the, the first part -composting. One is in conjunction with East Herts and Essex Council [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker004:] Essex Council and contractors. we are at the moment er going through er an experiment compost an experimental site where this is going on er near Hertford and erm we are obviously interested to see how that goes before that may, or may not, be extended and the second thing is that there has been a green cone experiment going on in conjunction with Welwyn Hatfield District whereby erm householders [speaker008:] . [speaker004:] Sorry. [speaker008:] Hatfield town Council? [speaker004:] We've not, we haven't done any in conjunction with the District Council Officers Welwyn Hatfield District Council and, and no doubt the Town Council I'm sorry. Erm er whereby the green code has been allocated to some er some houses having, people are recycling through bottle, erm bottle waste. The building materials side is primarily issues held by the er, the private sector and issue of the waste by factories is something which is the subject of er new er regulations which are often advice which is expected shortly from the Department of Trade and Industry and and we are awaiting obviously for that to come out to see what should happen and therefore our advice to you is that we should contin continue to keep these issues under review through the waste er advisory matter the waste er Planning and Policy panel. Erm, er we talked to the departmental transportation departments er attended and it is I think fairly widely open to members of the county council so that, these issues can be pursued as and when they arise or choose to comes along. [speaker003:] Mr. [Charles:] Yes thank you Chairman of I, I think we all welcome this er this particular report and er yes I think raised the issue as she did. Erm can I draw your attention to er Mr 's closing remarks. Er this the issues contained in the report er contined to be er, er considered by the waste management policy panel which is meeting now on er, erm a regular basis and will in due time no doubt report to the environment committee on some of it's deliberations. Erm there is er a danger that we as a County Council might become er embroiled in doing erm er work concerning the possible [speaker001:] [cough]. [Charles:] which of course is rightly the, the domain of the District Council so I hope we won't get too involved in that. I have to say Chairman that I find that the suggested resolution of six is totally adequate to deal with and I, I have read er the motion proposed by through a couple of times, and you know, it's having a few frills here and there and some are, I, I, I find this one thing er more than adequate er to deal with the situation and er I would move that resolution formally. Thank you Chairman. [speaker003:] Miss. [speaker005:] I'd like to propose the Labour motion because I think that this actually, these issues are very important and in a moment I shall say why I think they are. Erm and I think the Labour motion actually ensures that the County Council takes a more active part in addressing these issues as soon as possible. But even more so than the proposed the resolution proposed by the officers. Erm I'm happy to accept the officer's recommendations on the issue of the. Erm on the issue of building materials I feel this is of particular importance to Hertfordshire residents living as they do on the gravel there. Erm I am trying to local plan, places much emphasis on the use of recycled materials to reduce the rate of gravel extraction in the county and the associated environmental damage. Building materials form a large proportion of the waste dumped by fly tippers. Usually small building contractors who cannot afford the prices charged by official at your tipping site which are run by comm commercial companies. The problem which is outlined in the officer's report on people wasting petrol to take small amounts of material to recycling banks would not apply to building materials, as the quantities in question would be lorry loads which would otherwise be taken to a landful site or fly tip. As a County Council we have a commitment to reduce the amount of waste produced in the County, the building waste which includes spoil and rubble, forms around fifty per cent of the total waste production. Far more than household waste which forms about twenty five per cent of the total and therefore I feel that we can make an enormous contribution to the improvement of our environment by the establishments of sites for the collection for the sorting and resale of the building materials. I do realize that there are problems in finding suitable sites and that possibly that costs would be involved in setting them up, but for the reasons I've outlined we should take the bull by the horns and make an effort to find sites and budget for the costs involved so the benefits can be felt as soon as possible. On to the matter of composting garden waste, then the waste disposal off to landfill from household rescue could be reduced by about twenty five per cent if garden waste was separate County Council refuse site and composted. As this is an item which people would to a household refuse, waste site already, the problem of generating does not apply to this waste either. Some County Councils, notably West Sussex, already operate successful schemes of composting waste and reselling it to the public and surely Hertfordshire could do the same. I welcome the initiative that have already been started within the County and I shall be going to look at the site which is being offered to us, er but I do feel that we should be progressing these matters as soon as possible. particular importance is two items of waste. Thank you. [speaker003:] Thank you Miss can I have your? [speaker001:] Chairman I would like to second and reserve my decision. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr, er Mr. [speaker005:] Mr Chairman I, I mentioned that whilst welcoming the report, erm our motion is to say is, is of a more general nature, we're looking at the, what is really has er greater standing for financial costs and other practical difficulties involved in increasing the proportion of waste erm who acts as that recycled in the County and apparent progress in meeting government recycling are not being too much and what needs a job and whilst we recognise that responsibility with this requires primarily with the District Council rather than County Council as their question of authority erm it's an area that we haven't had much erm, the, there hasn't been perhaps to the environment committee for some, some time now and I would like to s to actually look at this, look at this again because it is a fairly fast moving,ch changing area, so erm this really is then more of a general, general information and to look at it again. I do have some concerns with Rosie 's erm, er to vote, vote Labour resolution on active sites or suitable, suitable sites er for recycling. Is she, where, is she actually proposing that these should be located? in, in the countryside, in, in towns? because they're sens sensitivities o on that particular on the siting of that er particular activity and er we're seen it elsewhere, er, those of us who have been on this committee for some time will know the concern that there are about the location of waste recycling facilities and er as I say I would hate that we would have a list of sites across the county which would just start paying us money and quite frankly should never be started. [speaker003:] Mr. Thank you Mr Chairman. Erm I would, I too am concerned with Rosie 's proposition. I think that what what she is in danger of doing is cutting across what the District Council's doing, we, er and in East Hertfordshire we are running at a, a composting scheme in conjunction with the County at and I, I, I understand that looks to be very promising. I would be, unwilling to support the, the Labour motion because I think there is a limit to how detail out of detail, we as a County Council should get involved in this, this should be a District Council matter with the County Council giving, giving support which is what is happening now. I do support this, which is Michael 's resolution because we should be looking at the financial costs and er going into the practical aspects of this and let's, let's face it er there are many aspects which are financially unviable and we should be aware of exactly where we stand on that. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr. [speaker004:] . [speaker003:] Thank you Mr [speaker005:] [clears throat] Chairman erm I didn't want to talk about issues but it's just really about sort of erm, erm [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] because I think er Mr 's motion is erm, similar to er Rosie 's erm except that, I mean I think what we're actually saying is that we do actually have a number of waste planning sort of policy panel, er and this is something look, needs to be looked at in, in some detail, erm and if we just do it via a sort of straight report to the Environment Committee and I mean look at the sort of agenda we've got today er you know how much time can we spend on the details so I mean I hope the Liberal Democrats would accept that erm yes it will obviously come to the Environment Committee [clears throat] eventually er but that it actually should go to the Waste Planning to the Policy panel and other bits no doubt to the Waste Disposal sort of Sub Committee for this is the policy er committee of course. Erm but I hope you because the panel could actually look at this in, in some detail, erm not just one meeting if necessary, I mean, it could go over two or more er meetings and the other thing Michael was talking about, you know, where the big sites, where should they be. It is very difficult to find them. That that's why the last part of the Labour motion is saying, we wish it actually to begin to look and consider it and again it's something really which the the panel, erm or indeed the sub Committee if appropriate [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker005:] erm could actually do, so what we are saying here is it needs to be considered seriously in answer so you know we hope the Liberal Democrats will perhaps come in and support us on this or perhaps amend their motion and send this via the panel. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr er Mr [speaker001:] Erm yes, Mr Chairman I should like to apologise to Bob for interrupting him then because er the enthusiasm about the green code business of course has to do with the Hatfield community project and is not initiated by Welwyn Hatfield when in the use er Herts County Council Paul in the community project, but nevertheless the green cone idea is the individual person, it's not the District Council and it's not somebody else taking a taking green erm green type away for composting. It's people doing their own thing in their own gardens. [clears throat] er sale occurred when they went through the electrical register and asked people who lived in flats whether they wanted a green cone, they didn't even have a garden, let alone a window box but nevertheless erm I the green cone extends ought to be reported on, ought to be encouraged and such like because it is the individual person who is going to recycle using their own garden in their own small way as opposed to transporting the stuff maybe to a waste tip and such like where it has to be dealt with at a an expensive way and if a the best part of the expense of dealing with waste of course is actually to transport and transport throughout the roads and if you do it in your own gardens so much the better and I, I, I should like to er and taking part in the green cone experiment er further experiments like that whereby the individual person is encouraged to do it. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr er Miss. [speaker007:] Chairman I would like to pick up on this point about the identification of sites. I have experienced in my division where the County and the District identify the sites and were making some progress before the planning application was approved. Now the planning application is for Waste Regulation rests with this Authority and I would emphasise that to members here that wh if you're looking at the sites you must bear in mind that we are the waste Site Planning Application Authority and that you cannot go and make progress in any direction without it coming to Committee here and I would hope that officers would bear in mind the sensitivity which has already been mentioned in agenda today but members will find that these applications er are addressed in their own district, in their own divisions. Secondly Chairman I would like to draw the Councillors' attention to the fact that I'm this years representative on the South East Waste Regulation Advisory Committee and we have indeed got in hand a project which is to... look at the whole of the recycling and the priorities for the South East region and I would imagine that by the time our officers have reported back to this Authority that they will have an advantage of having access to that report. [speaker003:] Mr. [speaker001:] Chairman, I'm delighted to hear that er we are actually talking seriously about improving the recycling and the possibilities of the waste that's created by our society. Erm a few years ago when I and others were saying that another forum e, er we were being er, er we were being being, being told it was far too expensive and there was no market there and all the rest of it. We've actually got to address the issue of the waste of the resources of the planet and it seems to me that this report addresses that fairly substantially. Obviously we're only part of the function of waste disposal and possible recycling. The other side of the coin is the one that's, that's a, a, a that's, that's mentioned by Michael and that is the improvement in the proportion of the waste sch sch stream that can be recycled. I would hope that whatever the County would put in place would encourage the w the, the waste collection authorities currently the district er councils actually to offer at doorstep collection arrangements wo which I believe will substantially increase the amount of, of waste that could be recycled. There is evidence around the country particularly in, in, in, in Milton Keynes where that sort of arrangement applies and I think we as a County Council as the waste er as the Disposal Authority must make sure that we put in place arrangements which will encourage that sort of thing to happen. It, it, it, it, it's, it, it surprises me that the amount of waste er that the proportion of, of the waste is, is, is fifty percent being er, er, er being builders' rubble not to put too fine a point on it. Erm and I am also conscious of, of the amount of, of, of commercial er, er commercial er tipping and that, that, that, that, that goes on. We must ensure that any recycling point or any, any er disposal er points that we have and they may be er recycling points if, if, if, if this proposal is, is actually accepted. Are actually available at as widely as, as possible, they're not closed because they're full for example. As I have a real a real concern that as soon as that happens er, er the sch stuff is, is if often just dumped on the side of the road and I suspect that's more to do with commercial operators than, than to do with the private householders and it and it and it and it, it, it's it does seem er to me that er, er that, that issue needs er needs to be addressed as well. [speaker003:] Thank your Mr, Mr would you like to exercise your right to reply or, or. [speaker004:] I'll be very, very brief erm we cannot fall back the control of the country which even the highest rate of recycling that a number of them have already achieved the Government recycling target so now you've aimed er, I think it's something rich it more or less stands for er, I would see the role of the County is essentially is co-ordination between the various waste collection authorities through to the greater of the extense of [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker004:] of the expense are going to er [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker004:] recycling. [speaker003:] Before we go to the vote, Mr would you still want to organize your region or vote on separate or are they willing to amend it onto Labour's resolution. [speaker001:] Ladies and gentlemen we would like our erm motion voted on separately. We are not happy with the Labour resolution for reasons I indicated earlier. [cough]. .... [cough].... [speaker003:] So I am going to start by taking a vote on the Labour group resolution proposed by Mrs. So all those in favour? [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. [speaker003:] And those against? [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. [speaker003:] Well then we'll take the vote on the resolution proposed by Mr can I see those in favour? [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. [speaker003:] And those against? [speaker001:] nil [cough]. [speaker003:] and as we take the vote on Mr 's er resolution. See those for [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. [speaker003:] And those against? [speaker001:] ... nil. [speaker003:] We now move on to item number seven. Erm. [speaker001:] Three, two, three, two, three, two [cough].... [cough].... Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.... [speaker003:] Before you agree, there are three [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Too late, too late [speaker003:] there are representation which I do need to put forward, er we've already had the supplementary report outlining the subject on [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker003:] er but we subsequently had er comments from County Council er Royston Town Council and Council and I don't think it will affect your decision because they're all full, these courses, with one or two minor changes.... [speaker001:] Mr Chairman, I didn't get that last the last late one that most of what they're saying is, comes under the authority of. [speaker003:] That's correct. [speaker001:] Thank you.... Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. [speaker003:] Thank you.... We now move on to item number eight, accounts [speaker001:] Agreed.... Erm, just that, first of all the time for [cough]. of the thought for the economical development policy panel er that is what I had agreed of er, I will just draw your attention to suggested resolutions on page four of the second report in the series. [speaker003:] Thank you. [Charles:] Mr Chairman I'll try and be as brief as brief as possible the economic development strategy programme for nineteen ninety four, ninety five has been reduced in the light of the review of the activity concerned with the prosperity and consultation and with widely increased organisations and public agencies. I think we found as I say there are work demanding which is probably the nineteen nineties are an increasingly well educated, skilled and flexible workforce responsible for it's services policy and safety environment, the strategy in programmes for those page twenty one. Erm moving forward planners for completing in brief by consultant on a special programme, making your recommendations to the Policy Committee Hertfordshire Development Fund and providing an industrial and employment strategy in the structure plan for this kind. Erm we have had some success in this year and we have, hope that we will have similar success in the future. With the need to consider further process in Hertfordshire Development Fund as well as the by the strategy of ninety five, ninety six. Er and any process that will be the fund will be brought to the next meeting of the committee. Erm, erm the first, finally liked to add that erm my personal thanks to all those who have taken part on the panel I've found it immensely enriching and have been [speaker001:] [cough]. one of the best panels I've ever been on. Erm, I'd particular like to thank working with the officers, boys you make me sweat. The, erm, we've had erm covered an enormous amount of ground erm so erm and the other people I'd like to thank cos I think we have established an extremely good relationship with the Hertfordshire er and everybody comments throughout the country that what a good relationship Hertfordshire has. It's something to be enormously proud of and we are attempting to involve everyone er say in Hertfordshire er in this important area and Hertfordshire is I say, what it's all about. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr. [speaker005:] Thank you Chairman, could I erm move the er [clears throat] well it's a slight adaptation of the erm suggested erm [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker005:] on page four erm, by the, er near the beginning, so it reads that [reading] that [] er comma [reading] noting continuing high rates [] er sorry [reading] high erm levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire. Er the County Council demonstrates that in five years the Hertfordshire erm etc [], erm now I think Chairman we do have erm a pretty good strategy into the consultation rather better than the one for the erm current year which was started erm by the previous erm administration. I agree with Mike that the panel has been and er he is and will continue to do, erm I am sure, erm and, and that think certainly it will apply to, ought to be extended so that it won't need staff, er to be need during er nineteen ninety four erm and we wanted to, to note the continuing high levels of unemployment er on this side we believe [clears throat] the County Council should have an economic purpose strategy anyway, this should be a very important part of it's strategic there, the strategic planning role. Erm and so even if we had a full employment situation, we would still need an economic bonus strategy and I know the Conservatives won't agree with that, they were very reluctant the last administration to think about economic developments at all but, er eventually they realised the recession was quite er, quite serious. Well erm I know there's enough people around, the Prime Minister is trying to tell us that the recession is over and so is the Chancellor, well yes, unemployment has now gone under forty thousand within Hertfordshire, it's under forty thousand just. Er rather than being erm over er at forty thousand, for that we are, are pleased that the extra erm people is in work, but nevertheless we still have this very high level and we have a problem given the restructuring of the economy, I'd better shut up because my colleagues er Chris and Jane are going to talk about erm another closure intending closure and yet more redundancies again er, it happens in Hatfield. These things are still erm happening and we've still got some major problems. Er we think it, er should be, you know drawn to the public's attention, government's attention that we cannot tolerate within this county, this high level of unemployment that we've got, and we're gonna do our damndest as a County Council to do what we can I know there is in order to, to attack that particular problem. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr. Second of your er. [speaker008:] Er yes, erm thank you Mr Chairman. [clears throat] I noted Charles 's expression of disgust on the word unemployment, I believe tommorrow er the Government are going to introd er, are going to er produce new figures showing a drop in unemployment generally. Er I notice the government also talk about job seekers these days as opposed to people who are unemployed but for those who get up early in the morning or raise their head off the pillow as I do, see the business news on... half past six on er B B C 1. Er I was being told this morning... by not the Government that of the twenty million employed in this country, at least a quarter has been affected, has been affected by the disturbances in, in employment in recent years, so it doesn't matter you see whether your gun shot massage the figures. Whether they take people on a course [Charles:] rubbish, rubbish [speaker008:] whether they send people on a course, whether they send people on a course because they're long term unemployed and having finished the course then don't get a job but they are no longer long term unemployed. They start again as newly unemployed. That sort of thing and the number of people waiting to get on a course. It is a disturbing thing and Brian in this short amendment drew attention to the high levels of unemployment. There are people not working, there are people who have been trained, there are people who have worked and have been trained. trained and nevertheless it is a disturbing thing and the development of this County has to do, not only with businesses succeeding and also with people who are actually making those businesses work and the only way you can do it is by having people employed doing useful things. Useful things for the community and not wasting their talents doing futile things. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr Mr. [speaker006:] Just a small point on this amendment, er the forty thousand figure we should be aware could be a Conservative figure. Er with a small C, a large C as well erm it belongs to as well. Er I'd refer members to the report that the International Labour Organisation brought out a week before Christmas. Now the I L O's isn't some shabby left wing organisation. Erm if it is I wish the Ford Motor Company gave as much money to the Labour party as they do the I L O but one of the points they made there is that in their opinion the unemployment figure in Britain is approximately four to four and a half million people because of the way the figures are worked out and the goal post of working have been changed by successive Ministers of Employment since nineteen seventy nine. was the first. Er and since then we have come up with finding other ways to massage the figures downwards. We, I am sure, would all agree that the figure, whether it be forty thousand, sixty thousand, seventy thousand is far too high er and this is why it's important for this County to have an Economic Development Strategy.... [speaker003:] Thank you Mr. Do you wish to make a resolution? [speaker006:] Oh do you mean now or resolution in total or, or separately. [speaker001:] Chairman are being er witness to er a separate resolutions? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Erm apart from Mr Chairman sir. [speaker001:] Chairman Michael started off on a nice [cough] tripartisan note which er I think we on this side er did appreciate and it's true that this panel er has agreed a great deal, covered a lot of ground and er I think er avoided the sort of er, er controversy etc., etc., was which we're now caring now we are arranging in practical groups does mean the Labour groups has introduced a sound note er Brian started off by saying that the Conservatives er were not interested in an economic development strategy, er I must point out that and this activity derives from the local government managing act nineteen eighty nine, and by the present Government. Erm the Labour Party is absolutely furious that unemployment goes down in this country and they keep trying to say to the public that it's all hooey and, and, and, and the figures are distorted etc., etc., The fact is unemployment is going down, we are overcoming the recession, er faster than any other member of the er European Community or the European union as it's now concerned and, and these are the facts but having said all that, we on this side er certainly support a continuing strategy whether we'll er have to continue spending money at this level, er I don't know, hopefully er the, the recession will be overcome and the spending can be reduced, but the strategy we believe. In pursuance of the ninety nine Act er where we would we ought to continue to support. Thank you. [speaker003:] . Mr... Mr [speaker010:] Er I'm sorry, I wa I wasn't gonna come in on this but er I've heard rubbish from Mr and I'd like to ask a question. [speaker003:] No that's to do with item number nine, er sorry item seven. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] try to clear it up. [speaker010:] No you, this was a criteria and when George said that the figures are massaged erm Mr shouted out rubbish. [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker010:] I'm, I'm, I'm [speaker001:] He usually says rubbish that's what he says. [speaker010:] I was made redundant when I was fifty eight by Welwyn Garden City when er Welwyn Garden City that's er I was unemployed. Two years later when I was sixty and four months I was made redundant quite happy. Erm I've written umpteen letters and never got a job since. So I'm telling you Mr that I'm not unemployed because according to the Government figures I am not. Over sixty you do not get included in the statistics which makes it bloody stupid.... and they can put that on the recorder but I've been told for the last two and a half years by this government that I am not unemployed. Now if you have got any comments on that, tell my wife that and she'll teach you some Anglo Saxon. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker010:] And can I just comment on one point by Mr, he said about they've been using the local government erm housing Act. They resisted using that until last year, so let's get the facts straight. Thank you Mr Chairman. [speaker003:] Miss. [speaker007:] Just saying br, just saying briefly er Mr I, I had something I do find it most of the time we do find it very instructive and certainly the strength of the economic development strategy is about the partnership and all those partners contributing their particular field of interest and that's I think is. I just wanted to s erm congratulate er whoever it was and put together the curriculum er programme which secured the three quarters of a million pound for all those which will I, I think I can understand extremely competitive and I would like to erm give credit to there because that will be enormously for the business which will give proper jobs er which is er very useful to the environment and, and, and really just to record erm that, that particular er success. [speaker003:] Thank you so much, I wonder if now we can move on Mr [speaker001:] Well I was going to a ask through you Chairman er Bob if he really is concerned with and not interested in this re-generation why he put five hundred thousand pounds into the budget? With a lot of pressure on you, and in fact you intended to take it back again if you won the election. . . to make the point Mrs [clears throat] refers to all the work that's been done [cough]. and I would [cough]. from, from er the European Community or European Union erm, in fact Simon is sitting out there and I think this is the chap who've er really responsible for putting forward er, er on the County Council side the bid and er, er I think that our thanks ought to be extended. [speaker007:] I was actually in fact going to thank him. [speaker001:] . . [speaker003:] I wonder if we can therefore erm take the latest amendment to solution which is inserted after [quoting] that [] in line one, owing to the continuing high levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire. [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] Let's see all those in favour [speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, oh thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,six, fifteen Sir. [speaker003:] and those against? [speaker001:] . [speaker003:] those in favour of the Officer's Resolution as amended by the Resolution. [speaker001:] . Thank you. [speaker003:] I have now Mr to make his resolution. [speaker001:] Yes thank you Chairman the er we could er put this resolution in at this stage because of the urgency of the er the matter. On Friday who operate Hatfield Aerodrome er announced that they will cease trading and the Airport will cease to be operational. Er we now believe, we now know there's at date of this list and the Airport will close will be April of this year, so there is urgency needed there. Er urgent action necessary. The main concerns we have are er two or even threefold. Firstly, we, the loss of jobs, er themselves employ a hundred and forty two people, there are a further one hundred and eight people who are employed in er periphery items and other firms on the airfield itself making two hundred and fifty, but this figure has doubled because of the imminent closure in March of Aerodrome and the number of companies who were going to transfer from these, and I hope transfer from these to Hatfield. Erm there is a need for a small airfield Hertfordshire. Er we had on the er structure planning policy within the joint needs of Development er Committee, er a presentation from, now one of the points made there in what was a brief proposal or what have you er point was made [cough]. was that and I quote [quoting] we are here to create jobs [], now in keeping Hatfield air,air airfield open to some extent, we may be able to create jobs in that area. Hatfield has become a bl black spot because of the closure of, er the aerospace industry in the County has suffered gravely in the past few years and I think you will agree, the closure of at. Er at Hatfield and of course reduced working Aerospace at Hemel Hempstead. Now the reason we've asked them to talk to the government, government departments about this is to see what can be done. It could be that nothing can be done, but we ought to be seen to be taking action over this. It could be and I don't want to preempt any discussion that would take place, but it could be a solution er from the Hatfield site could be found in the same way as a solution was found by er Sunderland Council and er Cleveland County Council over the shipyards in er in Sunderland. Now what's happened, what would happen if we were to follow the same type of line there would be that the airfield would stay open as if needed a small commuter airfield. There is a need for a commuter airport to serve London. Er the communications from Hatfield, Hertford are first class into the centre of London er is an option that perhaps you can consider but the fact that we can also then look at the Sunderland example. The redevelopment of the er derelict factory site into smaller industrial units and making it er a form of want for a better phrase, enterprise zone where thanks to subsidies from the government and the E E C, we will look into making it rate free, reduced rents, etc., er increase capital allowances for companies going in there so you could attract the needed capital intensive industries that will meet the high tech need that we have the need to have to create high tech jobs. Of the forty thousand or whoever many thousand it is who are unemployed in Hertfordshire, a large number of people th those people are skilled. Usually skilled in the Engineering Industry. Er the new towns that Hertfordshire were built on were built on the banks of moving skilled engineers out of West London. Er and part industrial estate. Hemel Hempstead is a prime example, and also of Stevenage and Hatfield is also er, er a. So if we could look at those things and talk to the Government to see if it's possible, it maybe it isn't possible then that's a different argument but we should be seen to be doing something er to let this die on it's own will A, will deprive other people for odd jobs and in some cases I've met the representation two guys there who used their redundancy money for Airways to purchase er a small aircraft and are running a flying school. They had nowhere else to go because this is closed and as they've said you can't pay the mortgage on a single engine two seater aeroplane and you can't get rid of, to sell one of those things, there business in liquidation. We should see what we can do on this matter and expect another report back and then they actually can tell. Thank you. [speaker003:] . [speaker001:] Chairman before we. [speaker003:] Er er Mr. [speaker006:] Yes Mr Chairman erm I understand the motive behind this proposal resolution but I think the mover perhaps is unaware of what's actually going on and have to decide and so I would like to speak against this resolution and I think the constructive thing to do so we don't send the wrong messages would be to er I, I will move an amendment er and I will explain what I'm doing as I speak. This having early in the days this not be impossible to get it all typed up. Er if I may I'll speak and then I'll give you an amendment... which I think will be more constructive than the proposed resolution. The London aviation did indeed make a statement last er Friday that they will cease their operation in April nineteen ninety four. Sorry, and erm that in their statement er they indicated that the hundred and forty two employees would be redeployed elsewhere in where possible. Obviously some of them will not be able to seek er alternative employment. What disturbs me about the wording of this resolution it's quite clear that it 's it has not been discussed with the relevant officers here and yet it seeks to instruct those officers to prepare a report. Does Mr know that the County Council's officers are involved as part of a team led by the District Council to redevelop on a medium to long term basis the entire site. This has been referred to frequently and the panel meetings where I've been present erm the authority has agreed that Council and what it's doing is to using a review of the District Planning Procedure is going to list this entire process working in partnership with Hertfordshire's own Organisation, County Council, the department of transport, and other relevant erm national and local government Organisations as well as of course with and are the owners of the site. Therefore, I do think the wording of this implies a lack of er, er of research and and erm the implication [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker006:] of this, it says t a report detailing what assistance can be given to keeping the airfield open. Does Mr not know, er I think he does, because I've told him [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker006:] that a major consultation has been going on in one is reminded of the earlier discussion about er St Albans, twelve thousand questionnaires have been sent out and there [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] has been a magnificent response er something er something approaching two thousand have been received. Last night very late I was told that [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] the draft of the, it must be a twenty page Officer Report, that will be going next week to the Economic Development Council [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] of the District Council which happens to meet the same day as the County Council and the Economic Development Panel so if I can get a copy fast enough I will get one over here and that same week it will be formally preserved [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] to the Planning and Transportation Committee. That report is a detailed analysis of public reaction to the questionnaire. And I think it would be absolutely important [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] and vital that we don't and just as we said this morning said we wouldn't preempt and pre-judge the community of the St Albans District Council on the er on the transportation study. In the same way it is essential that we await the results of that questionnaire and that we discuss with the District Council the long term redevelopment of that airfield and so I think it would be more helpful in expressing our concern of course about the decision and version of it which I will admit came as a shock because my understanding was they would be there for two, three, or four years yet. Nevertheless a business decision has been made. I think it would be far more helpful if we had an amendment. Perhaps even if Mr and his colleague could agree to this that instead of instructing our officers, after consulting the relevant government departments [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] I would say that after consulting the [speaker001:] [cough]. [speaker006:] relevant partners, these are existing partners which includes county council and government departments to prepare a report detailing us what assistance can be given to the er, er redevelopment of the site with a long term opportun employment opportunities. Erm quite deliberately leave out the reference to keeping the airfield open because we don't, you don't yet know the results of the of the consultation with the public. I happen to know it but I think it would be wrong of me to disclose it tonight er this evening. I think you should wait for that and don't make any presumptions about the future of the runway. I have to advise the information to the economic development panel which indicates from our survey that the report carried out last year by Consultants that the airfield, the runway in Hatfield... makes only a very minor contribution to the economy of Hertfordshire. That information I have given to erm County Council Officers and therefore I think before you make any decisions you should erm [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker006:] examine that report and wait for the results of the erm public consultations. So what I am suggesting is that you don't accept this resolution and you accept a modified or amended version of it. [speaker003:] Thank you Mr can I have a seconder for your amendment, Alex [speaker001:] I'll second it for the time being. [speaker003:] Er Mr. [speaker004:] Well actually forget what to say well erm thank you Richard for erm putting forward a very touching case I am sure we all share the sympathy of the Hatfield further job loses, but there are major opportunities and we should not prejudge those opportunities as yet. [speaker003:] Yes Mrs [speaker007:] The, the Labour Party was seeking to actually to the value of the airfield. However, I don't, I mean I think it is very important that we actually re retain this actually at Harefield. That it's all very well to say to Consultants last year or some it, it won't even be very little value to the economy of Hertfordshire but the position changes with the closure of for example erm [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker007:] also the airfield has never not actually be marketed properly it could be marketed much better as, as, as it was to attract more, more executive business and more freight business, freight, airfreight is a greatly expanding business and there are lots of opportunities that this airfield would have in airfreight we've got erm buildings there we could have warehousing there to deal with airfreight. Heathrow has also put pressure on small jets that go to Heathrow by raising their landing fee charges, and that's more against. The City Airport is doing better but it's still not doing that well, there is a market for an airfield that would serve executive and freight business for North London and of course Hertfordshire, that airfield is needed. Elstree is not able to take all the aviation business that's been displaced for weeks that I know of and, and for Hatfield I've been notified by two people who are at present at Hatfield, one of whom is going to move to Stansted. Their jobs would be completely lost for Hertfordshire, you can't commute from Hatfield to Stansted and those people Hatfield [speaker001:] . [speaker007:] and working in Hatfield they will not be able to go to Stansted it, it, it all would finally

[speaker001:] if anything can be done to say one of must take those steps are needed to be taken up. [speaker002:] Thank you Miss, Mr. [speaker003:] Thank you Chairman I am interested from Charles who was saying recession, what recession, you were reminded of er an unfamous Tory jokes did when he came back from er, er crisis before saying [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] crisis what crisis in respect of this bloody. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. that's quite right [speaker003:] have I do, one part I th I, I think we should spiff up on, I've said that erm that er London er L B A were er did say that employees would be relocated in British Aerospace. The question is, don't mention a word of it, it says and I quote, every effort will be made to assist employees as they seek alternative employment. Well they all say that, don't they? Er every, every employer who has laid people off has mentioned making er strident efforts to er replace people alternative employment, some they already have but, in many cases of course they have not. The point that seems to be forgotten what Charles is that there was a meeting last month [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker003:] Now members of the Labour group of transport probably, it, it, it's the question over lossing airport came up there and one came up now. I think you may find that there'll be a different decision made. Er as to existing policy, we're elected to change policy, existing policies were to an extent rejected to a large extent rejected by the electorate here to, er so that the electorate should do. The point that this motion makes is to try to make action, the facilitating attitudes over there is gonna lead to five hundred people losing their jobs in April. Now if the Liberals wish to vote for five hundred people to lose their jobs because they're allowed to do all well and good and our press release afterwards will make sure the people are aware of this. Erm this is an effort to do something, the last, I am sure the sterling efforts have been undertaking by Welwyn and Hatfield District Council in this consortium, you know where's the beef, where is the evidence that somethings been done, this is merely asking to look along this line to see if anything can be done. We are not suggesting any solutions, we want information with that information then er, a judgement can then be made by this Committee and something can be done to accept those jobs and to create employment for an unemployment. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr. [speaker003:] Chairman, erm [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker003:] erm I am misses erm. [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker003:] in my earlier advance. One one of the many reasons why I don't want to accept this Labour resolution er, I would like to support my own member, is that er we have very, that there will be appoint a [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker003:] member of the involving members from Welwyn and Hatfield District and St Albans District and County Council [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker003:] at that appointed meeting with officers will be considering the outcome of the consultation process. Joint officer reports coming from County and District and that is another reason why I I actually urge this County Council not to accept that resolution. Could I also say that Mr as perhaps inadvertently misguided us, there's a hundred and forty two people work for L B A. I have seen the letters from the Chief Executive of L B A, Mr, to the Chief Executive of Hatfield in which he categorically states, people will be redeployed where possible within. [speaker004:] Has he made that statement in public?, because his public statement says does not [speaker003:] Mr Chairman I believe I have the floor and I would also say that contrary to what we've just been told there are people employed by what was called and three to four hundred people are employed, they're not effected other than fifteen people, fifteen people were not effected by this statement and there are some hundred and eighty people who still work for and connected with the project. So we talk of five hundred redundancies is totally wrong and I think erm in the circumstances calculated to give the wrong impression I hope I will urge that you do not accept the resolution and that we accept in. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Miss [speaker005:] Yeah, I've got a question, the meeting of the various District Councils and the County Council is it going to take place before or after the redundancies have taken place at Hatfield? [speaker004:] sorry, sorry I'm, sorry I missed that, which meeting, where?. [speaker005:] Right the meeting for the various District Councils and the County Council, is it going to take place before the redundancies occur on the first of April? [speaker004:] I should think there's a very high probability that it will because as I said to you earlier, the, yes. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Thank you, Mr. [speaker006:] I'll say one thing now about a question. As say that your answers from the people at that in fact certain jobs are safe and being redeployed. All I can say is that in a period of two years erm of five, in that time there was five sets of redundancies at erm Hatfield, there are two occasions we were told that they went through it and agree with the unions that there'd be no more for twelve months and one occasion there was another chap in three months, so if you believe anything that the P A E people there, you know, you really want to wear dark glasses but could I ask you a question, I understand that there is something going on at work with Richard at and my guess is, is, erm that sort of job which we are, there is some form of development plans going forward. Can I just say, what he's really saying between the lines is, are we really saying that these few hundred people might be a necessary sacrifice to produce a greying plan to redevelop?. Because that's where I think the difference between us comes. That there's an attempt here to trying to save as many of those jobs as possible and I don't take the insurances of the gone through the system now, but exactly true you're saying that it is. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr say for shall I put the er, Mr 's amendment to erm to the late resolution. [speaker003:] Yes ca can I just check with, with, with the movement that the resolution is as follows? Er does each Government pass in, in, er is passed? And at the end does these all words are to given to and insert the redevelopment site for long term employment. [speaker004:] Perfect. Thank you. [speaker002:] Well can I see all those in favour of Mr 's amendment to the Labour resolutions? [speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. [speaker002:] Can I see those against? [speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. [speaker002:] Can I see then all those in favour of the resolution as amended? [speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker007:] In order to I need to prepare my resolution. [speaker002:] second it?. [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. [speaker004:] Agreed. [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker002:] Okay now move on to item number nine-four. Mr. [speaker004:] Mr Chairman thank you for inviting me to speak and I think there's a preliminary for what to get a member of the Committee to propose the resolution and second it. Er Mr Chairman I beg to move that the member of that panel. [speaker002:] Thank you.... [speaker004:] I've said that Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman, it's a pleasure to report that the was marked by a maximum of co-operation and a minimum of it and, at the risk of offending people by er designs of the factory, people or groups of people. The first of them is the group... thank you to all of them for assisting the panel sometimes working on the computing. The second group, that most of them would of been since the report and each of them. The third thanks contain some risk, contains some risk of other on the part of the direction of law and administration, who is going to hear me behave rather like a Captain Hook and raising the crocodile. The crocodile in this case being Mr John. And I hate to take that particularly because if you are bored with this book [LAUGHTER]. which is the report, you can go and see the film. [LAUGHTER]. There're are complicated members of the terror act and it's not an entirely frivolous suggesting because if you have any doubts that the performance of this County Council in it's for duty to maintain the rights of way network to a standard appropriate for the traffic, then go and look even at a small part of John 's film. Mr Chairman I am going to be brief within the er triscale and resources we have available to us we may, I think, a reason of what an attempt to get back in current idiom, back to basics. Now don't take that too literally, certainly in sub zero temperatures and I think the first of December and to do so would I think er have er maybe with some risk of being in 's phrase stark raving bonkers but by that you may think I mean that I think we made a fair attempt to deal with the three principle issues which have caused so much annoyance to user groups, there's a backlog in modification orders. A very large number of obstructions and particularly season er seasonally obstructions and the visitors or should I say invisibility of many of the files in the network. In respect of the proposed problems, I think we have come forward with clear, simple and positive recommendations and therefore I would like to support the acceptance of all recommendations in this report and finally, though it's not my place not being a member of this Committee to comment on the budget you have agreed earlier. It is my understanding that the principle proposals at least in this report can be accommodated within the budget that you have agreed and therefore I suggest there is no barrier to the acceptance of the recommendations. Thank you Mr Chairman. [speaker002:] Thanks a lot.... Okay and I'll then move on to er Mrs 's resolution. If the, if only my with the er the resolution, I would like to compliment Mr with the handle of work and I think really it work and I need to find the problems in saying in what needs to be done, er County's work in this department. Erm we are making more money in favour to them and our resolution is to ensure that even a, a profile of work to be carried out, so that it's quite clear what's been done, the time scale, the er the amount of resources that is going to be needed. Not only so be the monitor progress in the work so we don't get ourselves bogged down as we have done before and not managing to carry out the work that's needed. We also going to identify at an early stage the financial resources that will be in next year in order to meet our obligation with identifying worthwhile all the time and then by a course of are reserved er to, to support Mrs. [speaker004:] Before we accept the motions sir can I just speak. [speaker002:] er Miss. [speaker001:] Er thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to say in general Mr I think that as a Committee we should welcome this report which does, it really does er has done a very thorough job and ha a a and provides us now with a s understandable framework and and time scale work when you've got target and when brought forward or shown to any member of the complex that that erm I think provisionally with the backlog of what is now ready to tackle the result onto our and commissioner is grant er, er grant, erm there will be, it will be like an enormous benefits not just in those areas that John has taken us to but in general atmosphere which kind of be very tense and competition and I think we'll be, be seeing the action in this token er within it will be er target time, erm real pro real progress will be this I think the feeling of that will going, come by will, will, will be a lot of ruling er in this area and maybe even start to er leave the question from er as a result and the signal to the users of our serv, of the services and erm would go out of here in a planned way and in answer to er fairly speedily and you know what or reduce the erm the aggro. I would also like to welcome the milestone approach. Erm there is publication that, these are be asked for be sent a copy to every mem member with it's er in a way a milestone initiative in in the middle of work. Erm and although they do er acknowledge it, it is it will be er, it will be seen helpful systematic way of er assessing where the Council is perhaps sort it out and then in fact we will prepare with other authorities. Erm and will save probably eighty, will, will in some areas er will, will job. Erm I mean looking at the, er the only solution, I feel erm another poor factor of this committee is probably er erm unnecessary and if I look at appendix four which lists the possibles, if I can find, erm it isn't actually necessary to have rules all like this, er next years erm, next years priority will be dealt with next year. We have er instructions and it is it says on your instructions [reading] until health care prosperity can be committed within the erm, within the erm department [] so that'll be taken care of in it's place. It's not possibly to be obvious to say you write an estimate of financial communication, but the first year against the should say this is brought up for review. So I mean do think that perhaps you still got a lot, a bit of unnecessary and indeed and we er will not. [speaker002:] Thank you Miss Mr. [speaker007:] So, I'll be brief erm we welcome the report, we think that there's a number of very valid points, we hope that funding has been agreed today er allow er the major parts of that go forward and now, we are commissioners route, further a funding group as for future years, so they will be accepting er the second Labour amendment. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr er Mr. [speaker004:] Er Chairman, er yes my understanding of rights of way issues was er, er significantly enhanced by receiving and reading this, this report. There are one or two areas where I remained confused but I'm pleased to hear from Mrs that we're going to get some more information on milestones and growth because I looked at appendix B and thought well, yes, that tells me something but not a great deal. Erm I would welcome er more information on, on that. I wonder if I could just raise an issue on item two three D on page four referring to horse riding because there is a concern about a, a lot of walkers, that horse riding on footpaths creates problems for them erm in, in terms of chewing up the path in, in such a way that they're difficult to walk on, people even wearing boots. Erm so I would hope that the further consideration of the issue of horse riding on, on rights of way obviously that relates to bridleways but the issue of the use of, of, of, of footpaths should be addressed and indeed where there are er bridleways one would hope that there was space to er make available room for horses and room for walkers because if there isn't room er there are a lot of considerable er difficulties where horses, particularly where horses are, are, are regularly being erm ridden in, in, in, in places where th where the walkers wish to go. I would hope that would able to be er taken on board. the I mean with refer to footpaths you are not allowed to ride a horse on a footpath. But they do. . But they do. on bridleways to horses and walkers and. [speaker002:] Thank you, Mrs. [speaker004:] Chairman while though it's being recorded perhaps I could take this opportunity to add mine. As er Chairman of the last countryside forum that met on the twenty ninth of April ninety three, it's the week before the County Council elections. We recorded in the minutes that rights of way resumes high priority in the next cycle that a report on the subject be for submission at his first meeting June ninety three. I would like to record my thanks to the members of all sites who have given such enthusiasm and interest to this problem, this topic and that the erm County Council is now resourcing rights of way in a way which we felt was necessary and I would thank our staff for their persistence, patience and their continuing efforts with great er verseatue we I am grateful Chairman. [speaker002:] Mr before we [speaker004:] Yes I was just going to respond to Mr because we did actually discuss horse riding er o on the bridleway network along the footpath and er well I do hope that what Mr has said felt that he had has considering condoning people riding horses on the footpath are breaking the law. Er but the one point that was I want some explanation Chairman. challenged, one point of personal explanation, that's exactly what I didn't say, I said we had to ensure that walkers were able to use the places they can walk where horses can are, are also using that er, er, er route as well. It it's obviously wrong that where they have had access, lawful or otherwise, that the that they shouldn't be interfering with the rights and the ability of the walkers to walk along that route. Yes I know what Chairman yes of course the bridleways and bridleway then you expect to find er the horse has been along That's right. but the point I'm trying to make is that the person who made the presentation er o o on er for, for the best of riders, I think he's rather missed the point because he was talking to you about the, including, more information on er within the T V P and we did discuss, er we did like to make it quite clear during our er discussions that riding of horses on the highway is a matter for the T V P, riding horses on bridleways is a matter that we will have to deal with in basic in time. The two really are quite simple. [speaker002:] Mrs could you start us now? [speaker005:] Well I would speak on the way that resolution number one er that's the report we brought back to the committee about timing and implementation. I do feel that this is necessary because we are allocating or just allocating our proposed budget er a substantial amount of extra resources through the rights of way which I am thoroughly in favour of but I do think we need to know how that money is going to be used and which of the items which are to appear in the report are going to be covered by that money and which is still going to need to be addressed next year when we have to book in time for it for next year. I also think that having to report back would assist with dealing with the many, many people who have complained about the state of our footpaths network but individual complaints and with user groups and we're off to see representatives out of County Council, they're not here today but they're off to hear it at our Committee meetings and I do think that having an officially report back to the Environment Committee would assist in meeting their requirements would be good P R. Thank you. [speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. Mr. [Tyler:] Yes, yes Chairman and I think only being apparently support the report is heresay. Some of this information cannot be presented er within the timescales that have been talked about er therefore we need, we need some more information on costs and so on. If that's the way that Labour I am surprised they get into such a mess. Can we have a bit of sense and order in what we are doing, er and not pursue. [speaker002:] Mrs Well can I [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker002:] that we're talking about the money that we are proposing to spend on footpaths [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker002:] in this budget that we've just passed and what we want to make sure is how that money is being spent. What they're able to do with that money this year and in that way we can make a reasonable assessment as to what has to be done next year and the years after and budget all, but we're talking about how they're going to spend the money that we've just earlier on voted for, for us so that we can see what is being done and also that the public can see because after all this all came up, the report to the ombudsman and the public will not be satisfied about our performance on that. It will be helpful for the public to see. We have allocated them that ran out of money this year and this is what is going to be spent on to improve the footpath network and in and say happily next year. Er so I think it's really vitally important that we do know, have basic what our money is going to be spent on this this year, not the year. [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. I do you want to say something Mr. [speaker004:] Okay Mr Chairman, er... the three principal items were the modification of this, which will assume some statutory funds and I think that was the largest errors of the growth in the budget. The way marking costs a very small amount indeed our previous was about two thousand pounds and I don't think it's worthwhile, this Committee in chasing two thousand pounds throughout the. The er dealing with obstructions was difficult to financially, but initially it's going to be er coaxed with er within the existing budget. I hope that submission [cough]. . [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I wonder if we could move now move over to the first which is on er the first main resolution of which amendment to the other resolution. [speaker004:] Hundred thousand pounds. [speaker002:] in favour of this? [speaker004:] over a hundred thousand pounds. . [speaker002:] Can I see those against? [speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Would you just like to count. That 's that gives us a problem. Er. [speaker002:] Could we have a little democrat please. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. . to be. . [cough]. . [cough]. . Mr about this. . I wondered, sorry can I just explain, interrupting if you have the time. Chairman er can't really use that refers directly to the Council. Now whether you actually wish this to go to the court Council I don't know. I just wonder whether the Chairman might ask for another verdict and then if that's tied it will have to go up before Council.. so we, so we can just take it explain Labour Chairman, chairman that isn't really fair, I mean the vote has actually been taken I mean I've no doubt there's a situation where we say, right, you know, it's a draw er, you know, this doesn't erm, that have a have. Erm you you accept the results the matter of prevention, guess it may be something which we wouldn't normally but I think in fact. [speaker002:] I, I wish to exercise my rights as Chairman to re-take this vote. [speaker004:] I was going to say er excuse me my hand up. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] I Chairman on that decision and we re-take the first vote on amendment nine. [speaker004:] Mr Chairman I I do not believe, Mr Chairman is it is it being said that every time a vote comes this way, if the Chairman doesn't like it, we can re-take it, I would challenge you on this [speaker002:] No this make things a lot easier, instead of taking it all up to the full council. [speaker004:] That's right. That is all Chairman . properly. . [speaker002:] I called for a re-vote and therefore I insist that we have a re-vote. [speaker004:] Mr Chairman, I don't think we can, it's illegal. I against the Chairman. [speaker002:] Can I see you all voting? [speaker004:] see my hand up last night. Nobody else did [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] I will therefore exercise my right on re-taking the vote. [speaker004:] Chairman I would like a word. Could we hear from the director of administration the of the year because I hadn't known things could be, it seems to me exactly what I had advised the Chairman because I could not believe that on the basis that you want this referred to the full Council. Erm I'm also, I'm bound to say er not the whole issue that I counted the votes for correctly as I was not expecting the outcome. [LAUGHTER]. but it certainly helps me to count them more . slowly than actually put up. I realise that it is my ability to change do get do not get any separately items will affect the rights of the third party. In a point of principle point of order Chairman which a group decision tendency to. That's the.... [speaker002:] Right I'm, I'm now going to take a vote on amendment one. [speaker004:] . One, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight nine, ten, thank you. That's ten. [speaker002:] And now can I see all those against? [speaker004:] ooh, ooh. five, six, seven, eight, [cough]. stroppy. . [speaker002:] taken. [speaker004:] well he missed a good few hands didn't he?... [speaker002:] take. [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] Hold the recommendation as amended by amendment one. [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] That's not. [speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. . Next time I'll ask for a vote Mr Chairman . Yes. [speaker002:] . [speaker004:] vote. . . [speaker002:] seventeen, the officers resolution. [speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. . [speaker002:] that motion. [speaker004:] Agreed. [speaker002:] Thank you. Those against? [speaker004:] . Sorry Mr Chairman... I didn't that I didn't hear the number read out. What numbers? [speaker002:] Fifty, fifteen. [speaker004:] Fifty nine. He said fifteen much. [LAUGHTER]. Okay Mr. [speaker002:] . [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] We are certainly going to make a resolution. Can I see all those in favour? [speaker004:] . . One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. [speaker002:] See all those against? [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] Thank you. We now move on to amendment number ten.. [speaker004:] [clears throat]. Thank you Chairman. [cough]. This report is, is about further consultation of and for restriction on provided by this society. It is the fourth in the series and I have to say it's fourth unsatisfactory er. Er so far the Department of Transport will go through those er or restriction guidelines. The first based on er a quota system which effectively is quoting copies, i.e. the noise rating of aircraft on quite a wide number of and the second system and more recent system is one which is based solidly upon er a number of. The information that the Departments have presented to us on which to er respond to the consultation hasn't even been very and indeed when we requested after the first round of consultation to know the existing number of lines on which they placed er their, their recommendations. Er they told us that the somewhere in the region of four and a half thousand night flights currently use Stansted Airport. In fact er they subsequently confirmed that the real truth of that was about half about two thousand er six hundred flights using, using Stansted, er, er, at the moment, erm the issue that, that leads us to is whether or not our transport should change er the er level of restrictions that they [cough]. Stansted and they chose not to. Er and Stansted in fact now appears to be completely out of proportion in terms of a number of night flights er it is expected to cater for compared to both Heathrow and Stansted. So I think turning to the er suggested resolutions, they're four main issues with and firstly that we are dissatisfied er with the method and needs consultation. Secondly that the proposed er quota level under both systems are both under quota system and [cough] and under required maximum system too high. It is better to to. Having said that er we would prefer a quota system for er Stansted because without it, we could have a large number of noisey flights into Stansted and, and also that er in terms of er both this and further consultations we would expect to see full information providing us from er, a to enable us to make a sensible conclusion. Here, here. [speaker002:] Thank you very much Mr. [speaker004:] Er yes, thank you Chairman. Erm first of all may I move the officers' erm recommendations on the paper if that's in order and I hope erm to save er to comment on the [cough] resolutions that er are to be raised by Labour and the Liberals. But first of all I'd like to congratulate the officers on the report er I'm sure that those people who have been reading the reports and officers of the County Council for some years er will have probably er, er it's been a long time since they've read one that's been expressed in such strong terms. Er and I think that is something that the Department of the Environment in particular on the Stansted Airport have deserved, so I fully support Terry in which this er report has been written. Er Mr has mentioned the point in the report so that there's no point in me reducing them, but we do [cough] listen to satisfaction. Erm I would like to take advantage of the things that I have actually done myself as a member of the Stansted Airport Consultative Committee and also as a member of Advisory Committee because I am Stansted representative and we meet from time to time and as apart from transport. After the last erm Stansted Airport Consultative Committee, three month's ago when we were presented with this press report that refers to four and a half thousand flights er over which period. I wrote a letter to Herts County Council, Essex County Council, East Herts and Uttlesbury. Er suggested that the officers have a joint meeting and get together and actually ask them what transport to be given the figures er for night flights so that they could and so on, and I know by the recent customer complaints and I believe members attended the meeting of those four Councils so that I think that discuss that. I therefore went into a meeting at in December and er we were presented with a report, we didn't receive it before the meeting, it was taken at the meeting and we said that we wouldn't discuss it if it related to night flights and again I wrote immediately back to the department of transport and I suggested that they should erm spend the report which I refer to, monthly figures of night flights so that the night flights could be monitored. And thirdly there's a meeting at Stansted Airport of the Committee tomorrow and I wrote and said so to the Committee and said could we discuss this with the Committee tomorrow and again I asked for information to be available to the public and particularly to local Councils so they could alter the situation. So that really means going on to the Labour resolutions and the Liberal resolutions . Er the only thing that I have not handed you is the Labour resolution which er twice mentions demands now although I'm supporting this strong report here, I think it's a mistake to demand things, it is, it doesn't put people in a very good frame of mind to coax them but and I would ask the er Miss who I think we're going to vote for this, whether she would consider changing to request, because I think we going to the situation where we make it known to the Department of Transport that we're a string of such like, we don't to upset them any more, I think that we requested that we answer is we would actually get a result in one. Thank you Chairman. [speaker002:] before we. [speaker004:] Thanks. Probably. .... [speaker002:] . [speaker004:] Yeah, we will accept requests. Right, looking at the history of this consultation of the Department of Transport losing one court case and the following left by history consultation requiring a considerable response for every day. It is hard to escape the conclusion that the Department of Transport's totally incompetent and has no concept whatsoever of the possible implications of its decisions. Stansted is by the Government to be a major airport of the future and you would therefore assume that the Government would be planning that development but it is now clear that Stansteds future is based on unknown or undisclosed information of genius arithmetic and a desire to listen only to the aviation industry. To represent Hertfordshire residents we must give notice to the Government that is surely serious,sli slitshot consultation is no way to supervise the development of these airports. If it is the case that the present proposals from like the earlier and are within the law then it is only who the law is inadequate. It is clearly wrong that the Government to make decisions based on such poor informations, such poor consultation. We must however [cough]. and we must insist that the Government either justifies or reports its position. [speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. [speaker004:] Erm can I just make one comment on, on that last contribution. Erm in fact the Department of Transport have reached the subsequently of, the, third of December and it confirms to us that they did place erm their, their erm flight management figures on, on level [cough]. one of [cough]. night flight movements for winter nineteen ninety two, ninety three that had reached the. Erm th there's just a comment I'd like to make that they have said that they would place it on that figure report on our. [speaker002:] . [speaker004:] for. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr.. [speaker004:] Just a question [speaker002:] Er if I may. [speaker004:] Erm tell me something Mr C, it looks very much as if the proposal er the resolution er of Jane and, and that which is proposed by sergeant basically covers the same issue with [speaker002:] are they? [speaker004:] not really cos, cos if they are I mean a lot of people are more for, er the thing of Simon er, er although we've, we've been expecting the er the withdraw of the work demands [cough] [speaker002:] a natural request erm th the Liberal Democrat one is much more workers and er, and er they mean the same thing, and I think I would er ask for this group er support er the second one rather than the first one.... [speaker004:] Thank you Chairman, could I I just point out to members that the working ground information on existing flight levels being made publicly available is already included in the little resolution, resolution little six on your original paper, ballot example.... [speaker002:] Er Mr would you like to your resolution. [speaker007:] . Can I may a couple of queries Mr Chairman? Erm I have said all erm conservation processes have been out it is know as a sham, because they have their numbers quite determing of course what this intention er that proper consultation so this time round. I mean that's how we get a how much [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker007:] perhaps Hertfordshire County Council average they actually got some information I'm sa, I'm sorry to say Mr 's got no have to state the position so far, not officer. So the reason that we put on erm at the simply is of Mrs and Mrs more accurately wants that this information is the publics and should be available to both the public and to local authorities. I am perfectly prepared to accept six set back, the thing to do would be to probably to separate the six, and six and a new seven. So we start a new seven er, er where the new information starts, and it's not simply an add on. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. How are you all. [speaker004:] We formally second it Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman this little job will save a bit of time I think we've had er an amendment set by the, the Labour group for work demands through requests er, we want er support er what Simon what Simon is making here so we er we're making here so we erm small [speaker002:] So I therefore I take it that all the to be agreed.. [speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. [speaker002:] thank you very much.... [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] Now to item for remark two, item. [speaker004:] . Thank you Chairman, erm, members will be aware that er a planning application has been submitted by at Heathrow Airport and of course it's got a big terminial at Heathrow. The planning application has been pulled in for, for final er consideration and er as joint planning authority the news of Hertfordshire County Council are being sought. Although it's not likely that the action will publicly required [cough]. will be held until nineteen ninety five. Under the Enquiry Rule Procedures we actually are required to submit a statement that was placed very early on in the process and indeed the work by it to see that a safe and greater. Erm following discussion at the Airport Policy panel, erm we submitted the whole weeks which you will see we set out in appendix er one of the report. Er this outlines the issues er which we consider should be agreed by the County Council er perhaps any, any but there's no comment on the we should say the quality terms... but also on the Airport Policy Plan be possible starts we might take on duty now or in particular if it was discussed and agreed and thus agreed er pace is set out in appendix two. Appendix two represents of the agreed that policy panel considered that we should submit to the public enquiry. I think I would just like to draw your attention to one or two erm... items in the report [cough] firstly the only application of his associated with er improvements to er passenger transport in the structure er, in hoping that the Authority's running into Central London and in terms of er traffic generation which is clearly going to be a, a significant issue in, in consideration of this particular enquiry. Erm the officers are suggesting that erm any paper comments and communications you make other than enquiry, should also emphasise that the need and desirability for these public passenger transport improvements to go ahead. Er the other issues, I think that, that we have identified relates to meeting er forecast passenger demand and the meeting about the role at Heathrow flight and the premiere international therefore for any country as he particularly in the. And also there is the issue of where the response er decision which you may have Heathrow terminal five, will in fact, in any future er discussions about er the further developments of Stansted Airport. Erm and that is one of the issues which I think we would need to comment on er at the last enquiry as the airport. However, erm this is the first chance I've had to speak today so I can't take all the blame of the er, of the, of the late start, erm I don't know whether it would make it any easier to the my colleagues on my right or my left erm to accept the Liberal resolution. If perhaps we regard it just as a, a technicality and an amendment of wording and where the statement of case prepared by the officers reads the development of a fifth terminal at Heathrow is supported in principal. All I want to do is just to replace the word supported by specifically opposed. Erm I think we can as a technicality [LAUGHTER] and I don't know if we want to agree to that straightaway in which case we get on to the next item. [LAUGHTER]. I see some shaking of heads around me, not to worry. Erm the policy panel that erm looked at this erm a week before Christmas was erm I hate to disagree with you with Peter we are not exactly unanimous in this views on terminal five and this is reflected in the erm, the Liberal Democrat resolution erm, past policy of this Council has always been to favour expansion at Heathrow rather than of Stansted and we are being asked today to confirm this stance at the forthcoming enquiry and well we're not faced with an either or situation. If terminal five doesn't get the go ahead, if it doesn't automatically mean that we're faced with expansion at Stansted erm this is one of the reasons [cough] why erm [cough]. we have our item five here [cough] about joining the airport policy consortium to making sure that members and officers views are er sort of, er officer and member representation and to make sure that Hertfordshire's views are heard on this policy consortium because as Peter quite rightly said, erm it's made up of members and officers of County and District Council's South of the river and yes although their com their main intention is opposing terminal five, regrettably yes they are considering expansion at Stansted er, er far more than an alternative. So I think erm Hertfordshire's voice should be heard and however, my resolution asks us to look at the possibility of opposing not only the building of terminal five but all further airport expansion in the South East be it at Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or Luton. . Erm Hatfield or Evesdon or . Denver and my own personal erm opposition to terminal five, living as I do in South West Herts is obviously covered by the fact that I do live within fifteen minutes drive of Heathrow or an hour and three quarters if you go by the M twenty five. Erm there are, however, and a number of other valid objections erm if I just mention them very briefly so as to save time. First of all the much talked about third runway proposed for Heathrow, this' ll have a much stronger case for being located there, if there's already a nice new terminal ready to cater for it. Erm there's an economic imbalance between the West and the East of our region and this imbalance will be exacerbated further if terminal five goes ahead. Erm the imbalance is reflected in, in many ways but in one way is in traffic using the M twenty five, for example the Western section of the M twenty five from the M three, M four, M forty to the M one over the, the Western end where I live has approximately a hundred and sixty thousand vehicles a day which is e twice as many as the North Eastern side. I'm not arguing that we should put more vehicles round the North Eastern side, I'm just thinking that this traffic use reflects the, the imbalance in the region. Erm Heathrow has a massive impact on local roads already, thirty six million passengers a year arrive by road and of course there's also the airport staff and freight implications. airports Authority in their own estimate is that terminal five will only add a further seventeen million road users each year by the year two thousand and fifteen. Erm this is th their estimate so it's obviously a Conservative one. Only another seventeen million road users in the Heathrow area. By Spring of this year our beloved M twenty five will already have been widened to four lanes from the M three to the M forty and in November the Department of Transport's plans for the three lane link roads between the section between the M four and M forty were displayed locally in Uxbridge and places like that. These link roads would give us the much publicised fourteen lane M twenty five and the building of Terminal five would increase the demand for it. Other road building plans and in the, in the South East, well in August the Department of Transport er published plans for a five hundred and eighty million pound new road linking Heathrow with the A three. Okay it's not going through Hertfordshire but if they've got half a billion to spend, I am sure it would be better spent, public transport is only one way. Terminal Five will increase the demand for this extra route but as well as the regional imbalance there's al there's also a national imbalance erm airport capacity in the South East has exc increased at the expense of the regional airports, Bristol, Southampton [cough]. East Midlands, Newcastle, all keen to increase capacity. Manchester airport has a planning application in already to increase it's capacity from twelve to thirty million passengers per annum by the year two thousand and five. Trouble is the Government doesn't have a strategic airport policy nationally and each airport planning application, it just looks at individually on it's own merits. This is a shame because half of the U K passengers arriving at Heathrow don't actually live in South East England. They don't want to go to South East England. They have to transfer either to another internal flight or to the roads and again tells us that eighty per cent of Heathrow's passengers arrive there by road. Erm these internal flights that they transfer to, Gatwick and Heathrow handle one hundred thousand domestic flights a year. Some are obviously [cough]. internal business shuttles but a lot of them are long haul passengers who couldn't get a direct flight to their nearest regional airport and with the nineteen ninety three directive liberalising the E C erm or European Union Airways, more and more passengers from the North and the Midlands are going to take a shuttle to Europe not to Heathrow, they are going to fly from Ringway or East Middlesbrough t to Europe and catch a long haul from Charles De Gaulle or Frankfurt and indeed Amsterdam which you probably know is now advertising itself as Britain's third airport. I would argue therefore that the development of regional airports, instead of terminal five of the other airports of the South East would curtail this trend by cutting by, sorry, by increasing the number of long haul flights serving the regions directly. It will cut down on dom a number of domestic flights and of short haul flights to and from our European competitors. It would also weaken the case, the building of third runway at Heathrow and lastly it would reduce the traffic on our already overcrowded road network in the South East and hopefully remove one of the arguments for widening the M twenty five to more than four, four lanes. I move. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Can I, who will second it?. [speaker007:] Yes Mr Chairman, can I second that resolution. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Er Mr. [Tyler:] Thank you Chairman, er I'll I'll be mostly brief, erm we should not be supporting anything that Mr has put on paper er this afternoon. Er, er we, we feel it's er, it's misguided er it, it journalizes it, er does a very large number of things erm to er this County Council's views on, on er airport policy and various other matters, erm it would be totally er would not wish to er to go along with that. Er the, the only good thing to come out of these proposals is that erm that he supports the erm the appearance of the public enquiry and the sale of erm that, that erm he suggests for example that we should try the airports policy consortium, well we dealt that five years ago when we realised that Surrey and it's surrounding areas were getting their own pressure group organised to make sure that Stansted got all of the flack got all the, got all the few other things as well. Er and so joining the erm would, would be like this County Council now feeling prior to, to the hunts and various other things in the County. Er taking a view the other week that er people would support County. Er for the Conservative group er we agreed with our colleagues from the other side er the need to install by very close integration on public transport with anything that goes on at Heathrow er I was [speaker004:] [cough]. [Tyler:] concerned the other day that the government had second thoughts on some of the proposals there and I hope that they will reconsider. Er and we came with a very strong view I thought certainly to conclusion and I did that er, that those things need strengthening and must be a in taking part of any further distraction er at Heathrow. Erm and so I, I believe that er the resolution in fact on the order paper will stand er and if we were to remove the first two lines er of Mr 's erm resolution that the County Council he represents if necessary that in a full, a full public enquiry into the fifth terminial at Heathrow, if we get that and graft on the rest of his words er to the resolution er on the Chairman er that will do two things er it reads er the quality of our Officers are suggesting and it picks up again a very important comments er that he makes er regarding post, er, er something that is public erm, er and that it, it meets media and the other improve that's something for the district office report. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Now Miss.... [speaker001:] Er thank you Chairman erm th that is one of the Liberal resolutions that we can get it is important at the sorry to give evidence of the alternative viewpoint and, and that is the case in, in opposing er for those who are opposing that er terminal five. I can, I have, I, I sort of are really quite dumbfounded by these er these sort of these motions, starting off with lets close down the whole of the South East England for all air travel in the future, I mean it's it's it's absolutely [speaker004:] . [speaker001:] state in the book policy er stable isn't an a stability is rural to the future generations, thank er thank relevant to the suit of each and I really don't think they would erm thank us for bringing about a demeaning for our premier, international premier this road. Erm to curtail it's competitive event er would be an absolute disaster shows that erm in simply because it is popular not just within the airlines but also the business er customers [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker001:] international customers [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker001:] and that is even in spite of people just erm to that now existing. If the Chief those to also want to improve passenger comfort but let me say in spite of all this er th th th the customer still favour and that is why we will be supporting the Labour resolution because it is about the state of it is about yes to keep our eyes and sort of providing a whole range of integrated public transport that goes along in parallel with that same. He didn't say, no, no, no, let's shut down our, let's shut down certain, in. That is er quite er to what should be happening. Erm, I think it, it, in the, obviously to, to support er, the, the that the building going ahead, erm will mean that the case at erm Stansted will be er containable to enabling passengers even if they are passengers erm it will be, will be absorb the public needs o of the area and the runners be erm arrived at after many, many er, er years Council planning erm does think that we can't contain that and er it would be possible to resist these rescued if we can remain at the figures that erm have been out at Stansted. But I think it's absolutely clear that if we have, if we have no sort of terminal erm perhaps it is yes to terminal two at Stansted and I do believe that we must talk and think and act competent er Mr has put various the case but, but we are entitled to we represent Hertfordshire people and we must keep more confident er and it's interests and I believe there is erm, if we don't do something, somebody else would be doing that, erm and it's and, and, and I hope that, that er the, will support and I believe that we will be doing erm so there's a lot more complex work to be done without erm congestion on the M twenty five, although we've got the work to put our case but at this very early stage be represented at the enquiry to put the evidence, to put the alternatives is absolutely. Erm I hope that we will be only supporting our report there of the report of the Liberal Democrats resolutions, otherwise we. [speaker002:] Mm well thank you we've got. [speaker004:] . I, I hate to contradict a lady but I does Mrs realise that she is voting against the construction of T five if you support my. Erm I'm, I'm touched by your but I don't think you meant that. [speaker001:] Which one is it?, I'm sorry [speaker004:] . . [speaker001:] oh [speaker004:] When the lady says no, she means yes. [LAUGHTER]. . [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Er Mr. [speaker004:] Er thank you Chairman for allowing me to speak as a non member, I am however, a er member of one of your representatives on the Luton Airport Consultative Committee. My concern is that there should be no delay in the planning of er the extension of airport facilities in the South East. Erm the reason for this is that Luton er is not an attractive proposition on a long term basis... but... it anti er and that, that is largely for an environmental point of view of the fact that it will also not provide an awful lot of additional capacity but it is a highly economic airport from the point of view of the number of er the cost required to expand it er further er passenger and facilities they already have designs for the extension of the facilities in that airport and I am concerned that er delays in the planning process for terminal three er or for any other alternatives in the South East or for making alternative arrangements elsewhere in the country. I might believe er it might be a very easy option er for those in power to put in the increased [cough]. capacity at Luton to buy themselves three years extra planning time and therefore very concerned that there should be no undue delay in the er authorities coming to the appropriate decisions on the planning. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr. [speaker005:] I thought I detected from that last speech Chairman that er Liberal Democrat group must help the enitre united in terms of what it. [speaker004:] I support, I support. [speaker005:] in relation to er adjustices erm we cannot support [clears throat] the Liberal Democrats er motions in relation to er, to T five, Mrs 's is, is right in saying our representatives of, of Hertfordshire who represent her own who represent erm Hertfordshire, we are also sort of citizens of the United Kingdom and not to afternoon we, er what ever it is now. Er we discussed er economic development [clears throat] with the Government, erm and whether we like it or not erm there has happened to grow up in er I think it's in West Hounslow, it is somewhere like that?, Hillingdon, erm Heathrow erm an international airport, er one of the leading international airports in the world of the big international airport. Erm in places Richmond Park in the economy er of in this country. Erm when talking about terminal five, we are actually talking specifically about [clears throat] better facilities er, increasing facilities for erm passengers. I know the jargon looks like passenger which will allow facilities er for our passengers. If you don't actually go ahead with something like sort of [speaker004:] [cough] [speaker005:] Heathrow is actually going to sort of lose ground in competition with other international airports and particularly within Europe. Now what will happen is erm, erm there are signs of which is happening abroad already, that people will go from the United States, other parts of the world, they will fly in and they will fly into Frankfurt and they will erm fly into other European erm airports and Heathrow relative to others will begin to lose it's position, and therefore from a national point of view, from an economic point of view, it is very important that Heathrow does sort of maintain er it's er position and nobody's denying that this may have some sort of, erm er important erm environmental erm dis dispendant and er if stick by them if you you're going to. The Dutch don't see that if your busy flight to you actually want to go to Amsterdam. We tend to see it from perhaps sort of Heathrow that you want to go in, into London because that's where, where the links are, by roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Piccadilly line. Erm would like transport, you could skip off, you could actually go to anywhere within Holland, er through, by road, that you can go by public transport and go by train and you can go by bus to virtually anywhere in the country. You don't have to go to Amsterdam first, but you come to Heathrow, a lot of people assume they have to go to right into London. Er, erm I'm, I'm gonna lose my, my colleagues Chris in a minute to say why we in fact think that our sort of does need to be amended before erm we actually put it. I mean I thought personally [clears throat] that erm appendix one which was the initial submission was rather better erm in connection with the exception of three appendix one, it's rather better than you know appendix two is sort of drafted in terms of, of, of, of. So Mr is actually going to er talk about that but I just wanted to go through a little sort of resolution, I mean if, if you looked at it, if you looked at number one, it says express this opposition to further expansion and then it goes on and lists Stansted and Luton, but this expansion goes now I mean Stansted is expanding erm daily. That expansion is absolute daily proof, I mean it doesn't really sort of make sense now what does it mean, number one, number er A one A, the needs a airports and travel. I would argue that in the past we should be doing much more to encourage people to go to and from erm regional airports and I, I think that is important, they do need to be expanded, but a lot of the evidence erm er there's stacks of evidence which is founded in sort of er exercise is er in fact that there's not a lot of unreprimand, I mean, I wished that there were. It would be much easier for us to actually say that the [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker005:] airports are, we shouldn't all be at Heathrow [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker005:] so, so that's, that's a difficult erm one, erm I'm not sure about sort of one thing as well, I mean a lot of people who, who come into the South East who virtually fly out. Erm you know are they going to the South East and run across country. All the other people come over to this country anyway. So they're actually coming from erm elsewhere in the world. The article in number two and there is absolute opposition to any expansion of Stansted does that mean from now?. I mean this is the language some of this is the language of extremes [speaker004:] Here, here. [speaker005:] and er we cannot support erm that kind of... [speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr. [speaker009:] If I can at this stage Chairman move er the motion of my name and Jane. Er I think that in many ways erm I understand what two men are saying, er to of the in as an extremist is things to a very large extent still you never know. Erm and much of the point he's making I think he's covering, if you look closely, the resolution that we put, I should at this stage say I do accept the er the Charles suggested to start with into the first two lines. Terminal five on its own is complete madness, to say we're just gonna put it there and forget about everything else would be absolute crass stupidity. Er we never expected from the Department of Transport and any minute book. The it must be part and only a part of an integrated transport system, not only for the South East but the Country as a whole. Now lip service has been paid to the length of transport policy in the South East, on off er donkey's years er in fact an organisation roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Picc was working towards one but we know what happened to that. The fact remains [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker009:] that unclear [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker009:] whether it's a large economic growth in Europe in places like Milan, Innsbruck er Barcelona, all have these systems where an extra terminal capacity is only part of the jigsaw that's had to be met. Now it may in our statement of case, and it must say that the points that er, er, it's not the shopping list that you put down there, the cross rail link is vitally important to the economy and money. The Kings Collins Cross terminal as it says here the Kings Cross er terminal for the cross channel route is also of vital importance and in fact it could be that with the development of a high speed, the high speed train services between not only London but also the North of England into the European local structure, that the need for [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker009:] terminal five doesn't exist, it could be, that could be the case, research has to be done to see what er, yeah it could be that air, air line capacity and air line will drop as a result of er forward thinking rail scheme and there is evidence from the Rhone to Seine Rider Scheme that's been undertaken by the French, German and Swiss governments of the a drop in demand for internal flights in those areas and because of the German equipment everything is there. Also we mentioned an environmentally sound road system and it's not only that we're, as are you over there against the fourteen or twenty eight lane or whatever busy lane it is on the M twenty five, because by putting all just increasing the road capacity is gonna lead to great loss from Kings Kingston on Thames and Ashtead and Shepherds Bush to Solihull. The whole of the West of London could re re-reduced to a complete, a complete crawl. The effects of the present structure of Heathrow but even if you see er, if you travel into from Heathrow on the M four to West Central London [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker009:] that there is, this grid lock situation I mentioned earlier on a larger scale has al already occurs er on the way in that er basically to Earls Court as I mentioned earlier it's in Shepherds Bush. Now if we can get a proper public transport system, a properly funded public transport system which will make, you can force people off the roads but you can also force them to persuade the approach with a properly funded er public transport system which is A priced within the peoples pockets and B er you can lead to views that will be er, er will be a great advantage for the area and the fifth terminal at Heathrow could fall par to this structure but if this new structure isn't there and if it isn't part of this adequately funded transport system then there is no point in, in building it was as I said earlier be, be madness. Another point to make a is that on no account should terminal five be used as an excuse for a third runway. Now I know said I was but I give the impression from that if you shake hands with them you should count your fingers afterwards [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker009:] erm they have not in the past proved themselves to be the most capable o of people to er to support these things so in conclusion I'd say that we must put this as part of a shopping list, the shopping list is on there er it is something to bring London and the South East of England which includes Hertfordshire and to make it an economic and viable area and look at the evidence of the other cities and I hope that er all of you will support the motion. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr Miss. [speaker005:] . [speaker004:] can I just make a couple of points. I'm, I'm rather disappointed that erm neither the Conservatives or the Labour Party are prepared to support a reasonable erm er reasonable plan because erm the, the Chairman is not certain plan which is represented by ourselves, Brian and Michael are routing very, very hard for a regional er airport whilst in fact that National Airport as passing along with a, a National Road er transportation strategy and everything else you can think of. So this So is County Council did not let er, Chairman, it is all for those in. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker005:] Er Chairman there was mention from the Conservative bench that were actually closing down the South East, well there's no suggestion of that. That's er just that it's bullshit. Er the housing issues mentioned was since I've according to the petition [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker005:] The population of that all property in houses are been built. Very few of those people work at Stansted Airport and I'd suspect that living in Stansted Airport wouldn't be an excuse for building new housing. Erm and so as far as extra traffic at Stansted Airport is concerned the big problem they've got is getting the airways to go there. Last year out of the three terminal out, three quarters of a million passengers. They're hoping to get it for this being an international airport. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. [speaker005:] Just, Just one point, point of order they are actually having great problems in getting the translantic flights over there.... [speaker002:] Mr would you like to take exercise your right to reply? [speaker007:] Yes thank you Chairman, erm I'll comment to what I want to do, speak to Alan. Er... the chance of rejecting everything on the table, well he's now taking it back and he accepts the point, the point about the Regional Policy and he accepts the point about a National Policy. We are actually putting the clock forward not back. We are starting with the press that the need for a National Airport's policy I cannot think of a number, a major or even a concentrate all these airfields and resources in one region. I mean that's grossly unfair in other regions. the same is that you don't match your airport passenger to your airport demand. We are now in the game of cutting back unnecessary changes [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker007:] We have already seventeen million extra journeys being generated into Harlow. How many of those are sustainable journeys? they're not. We are all the time, every time we encourage extra journeys we are encouraging extra C O 2 emissions the most part is found most important factors in increasing the security generation and all other forms of airborne pollution. And we're not considering any of it. Dealing with Jane's point with that, I hope she now understands we must. Now Brian when we talk about expansion we do not mean capacity that hasn't been provided that is not currently in, we accept the expansion has been already occurred in the South East of the [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker007:] all we are always talking about is extra capacity. The third runways into Heathrow, the extra terminals at Heathrow, the extra runways at either Stansted or Gatwick. It's those measures that we are questioning now. Now Chris made a very valid point, he said, putting terminal five on it's own is just crass stupidity and fortunately that is what it can happen. This government is not believing in integrated strategy, it never has done and it never will do and with the current the Government expansion plans it is becoming less and less likely. By the day away from us. So we are put forward indicated do we want terminal five on its own hallmarked. The answer to that surely is no. Now... the position is authority together with other local authorities in this area, to start with in this authority proposes that the Stansted expanse stay there on the environment purpose, we keep hearing you saying where Hertfordshire, Harlow. Unfortunately this is led to some rather less than glorious dealings including such actions with planning applications at Heathrow Airport by District Council. Now if you continue to rubbish under all that will happen is before long that Surrey County Council putting forward a planning application at Stansted. Er do we honestly want it?... Now the reason we suggested that we join the consortium with the emphasis sort of thing we look on this with the District of the County Council who are members and it is now a wider the pamphlets, merely those adjacent to the terminal airport. But in, let's Heathrow show without any more don't be surprised when they support extra capacity at Stansted to make Stansted. I'm concerned now, I understand the reason why we adopted the approach in our area. We can't go on doing this for ever so that we support Heathrow terminal five, they support the second runway at Stansted. The only of the government is that they waived it and the only other way is the A A who just see the pound notes coming in. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Er Mr. [speaker007:] Yes I'd just like to pick up one or two points. I think first of all Chairman, the point about the Airport's Policy Consortium that er it is relevant erm, er perhaps you realise the whole purpose of, the risk of debt of the Airport's Policy Consortium is to actually push er development from Heathrow to Stansted and I would say that it will happen, that's what they are trying to do. The suggestion that er we should join this er, I mean first of all I think that's if they would allow us to join it, and obviously we realise why they want to join this, rather to the Archbishop of Canterbury saying he would like to join er sit in his cabinet and, and, this, this that sort of level of discussion. Could I come back to the point about the twenty seven million passengers or some of I'm not exactly, but I know it's a lot, erm figure, it's large number figure, as a num an extra number of cars. Now the point is that, that, that is not as a result of the possibility of extending er terminal five. That isn't as in predicted number of additional car journeys or people wishing to go to Heathrow, so what is actually suggested by the Liberals is that the those additional people are going to arrive and be serviced by terminals which are out of date and they won't actually have the facilities th that are required. You cannot talk about regeneration of of an economy or or s sustained economy, er it is one added to agenda and we will have to prepare to let the economy just over the border at Heathrow fade away and give it to another country. Er so o,o only you have to follow the policy er which is sustainable for all the items that are on the agenda. as I say although, erm we've not been the government hasn't yet got an airport policy, it has got an airport policy and it's by the white paper er and so we can then say things that are not true. I do that it is time we updated the white paper. Er and take into consideration er Act since nineteen eighty five but it does exist er and also tend to agree that we do need a, a, er transport policy which actually takes er into consideration all er members of transport but the main point about this and Chris actually raises the point, er he referred to shopping it if we support the terminal five erm planning application but we say it hasn't been doing it, er on the consideration we get these other things which are on shopping list, then you are actually erm forcing the government that you have er, er and this integrated policy, the driving for in the long run. [speaker002:] Thank you Mr er Miss. [speaker004:] . [speaker005:] so. [speaker002:] Thank you, now that's all erm put sort of like these Liberal Democrat resolution first. [speaker004:] So do I have the right to say anything else or not er very, very briefly erm just one two points of criticism. Chris refers to an environmentally sensitive road system, what a lovely thought er [LAUGHTER]. I wish it would be possible, yeah never mind . Erm I could also support Chris's resolution if I thought it was realistic to hope for an adequately funded public transport system in, in the foreseeable future. Erm that's another lovely thought. However, I can on behalf of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, make Chris a solemn promise and this will feature in our next manifesto. Both of these, both of these, the environmentally sensitive road system and the adequately funded public transport system will be introduced as soon as this country elects a Liberal Democrat Government. [LAUGHTER]. . I've . but, I've, until that happens I regret that I canot support Chris's resolution. . [speaker002:] Thank you so er Mr. put the er Liberal Democrat resolutions quiet please, can I see those in favour. [speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. [speaker002:] Now those against. [speaker004:] One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight . ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. well we get two votes because you're the goodies. . [speaker002:] I think we must seek clarification Mr and your willing to take the resolution and drop the first two lines of your resolution. Take it. [speaker001:] Yes that would include integrated adequately funded trans public transport system as it did in the last. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] right can I see all those in favour please? [speaker004:] . three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, ooh. [speaker002:] Can I see those against? [speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, that did it. [speaker002:] Er before we go on to our that we have a break for ten minutes for those who wish to make phone calls er the only thing is the coffee is being suggested as well there is only facilities available in the members room. I would arrange for you. [speaker004:] Chairman couldn't we get finish? Can we press on now. [speaker002:] . [speaker004:] The point is Mr Chairman, some of us can't now get to other appointments we've got to make phone calls. That's right. We're so close to finishing We're not . . [speaker002:] there's a phone under the Chairman's desk. [speaker004:] . [LAUGHTER]. Chairman some of us have already slipped out and made those phone calls couldn't somebody else not do the same? Can we have a vote on this Chairman? Can we have a vote on this please then. . [speaker002:] I have actually phoned for takeaways for the entire group. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Can I, those, those, those who are in favour, we'll continue on in business [speaker004:] Well don't count on it being short then. [speaker002:] it's up to you. [speaker004:] Still. Chairman. [LAUGHTER]. Yes. . Yes. go round. . [speaker002:] Therefore if we go on to item number twelve. [speaker004:] . . . . . [speaker002:] Now Mr. [speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Erm this report i is a responsible request and as we consider er what the implications are mainly from the any privatisation of in which [speaker004:] [cough]. [speaker001:] I think the report er identifies two main issues, er one which revolves around whether or not when erm... part of which er would be required by, there still remains that will be safe enough. The current of three million to grow or rights of access er to the and experience to date has suggested that, that has been on a voluntary necessarily popular on, on a. And the second issue revolves around whether or not er ca there are any employment issues resulting from the transfer of identifies that in, in Hertfordshire particularly with very little er voluntary commission will that be er the employments in fact are likely to be minimal in, in the. The only other thing I would say is that we have in the report used the words, freedom to run and since writing the report we have been advised that er that is capa not capable or satisfactorily with legal terms and I would suggest that instead of the words, freedom to run we use the words, access management and permissive rights of way, to cover these. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] .... [speaker002:] Thank you Mr. [speaker004:] Is, is that euro speak Mr in other words freedom to Brussels... rather than to Rome? [LAUGHTER]. . Yes, I, the er the sale of policy commission land, I think is an extremely ill judged measure. Since the commission was set up in the First World War they in nineteen ninety five they said it would break even for the first time and agreed the last and thirties and forty come to maturity in which incomes are expected to double by twenty, twenty two. These trees were planted by the, from the public purse but they are likely to be harvested by private owners, so I'm not particularly be to happy about that. The government of course are getting capital receipt now, but sale we only expected to bring in some seven hundred million, it was thought the budget made for three or four days against the to be measure but there are only much more important arguments in the financial consideration in my opinion. Forestry commission estimate that fifty million people a year visit their forest, walking how people are and what have you. The forestry commission were once regarded as the covering the country with grand conifers but in the last twenty years they have been changing their ways, they now go half way to square yard their land. erm they need open areas to encourage others, they plant all the trees to encourage the growth of existing of all these trees in their areas. They encourage access by walks, picnic areas, car parks etc. They got an extra lot of teasing countryside management in conservation and this is why the countryside's three most active guardians, the association, the and the Council's protection of rural England are all strongly against breaking up of the forestry commission and selling off this land. . It is the concern of the people in Hertfordshire following the woods only about three miles away, they now and many Hertfordshire residents, I'm sure lots of people in this room use voluntary commission land where their, their on holiday. If this land comes into private ownership, it is very doubtful and dim the same amount of access and the same amount of conservation will be, er private conservation will be given and we won't have the control over it we have now. I must urge you to support our resolutions so that Herts County Council can join the many other Council and other organisation that are pressing the government to change it's mind. [speaker002:] Thank you. I'd like a solution to second that please...

[Chalk:] a very low base, and that is going to be used by the Home Secretary when, when he, he, he puts the cash limited budget together next year. We are going to suffer as an authority for many years to come, from that low budget. I actually put forward an amendment, to the police authority, whereby we take that er, million pounds o, of pensions, and by a certain amount of slight of hand, it be put back into county balances, and then re-allocated back to the police authority for this year, and that would have added an extra million to the base budget and it would not have cost this county council one extra penny. And that in fact was, produced a split vote in the police authority fifty fifty, and it, it was chucked out by the chairman's casting vote. That is absolutely correct. Erm, now as as this so called generous funding in fact, the police authority are facing a straight deficit of three hundred and twenty-eight thousand, they are facing a further deficit of four hundred and twenty-five thousand because they have only been given one and a half percent for pay, where all the information we have been given from the Home Office, you can shake your head as much as you like Chairman, it is in fact true, and in fact, in fact as reported in the Guardian,on, only the day before yesterday, yet again the police bill is to be, almost certainly four percent, not one and a half. That amounts to another four hundred and twenty-five thousand, the total shortfall is therefore seven hundred and fifty-three thousand, and that's without any projection costs. I mean they've gone out the window. Erm, Now erm yes or it's zero based budgeting. They, on the contrary, the police authority have a working party which had four very long and very detailed meetings and went through their budget line by line by line, and these are the figures they came up with. There was no argument about it, that, that, that was passed by the working party and main authority. So erm, don't let's have any of this nonsense about being, having privileged funding. Erm, the er, I refer to the er, freeze on police officers, in fact we need sixty-eight more. But we're not going to get them now, because this county council won't provi won't pay for them. I certainly support er Mr 's amendment, and totally reject what is here in this democrat, er, er, proposal. [Coleman:] Mrs. [speaker004:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. Er, Colonel is erm, doing a very good job over there in trying to make our flesh creep over the whole police situation, but I can tell by some of the remarks that have been erm, given from the body of the chamber that not everybody agrees with him. I would just like to answer one or two things, erm, erm, he, he, one of the things he's saying er, is that erm, oh dear I've forgotten what I was going to say now, and I [LAUGHTER] haven't got it written down, got it written down, can I go on to something else [] erm, the Home Secretary does seem to be in some disarray over the proposed bill. I'm glad to say it got a thorough sort of leathering in the Lords, and so I think it's rather premature for him to say that by fixing a budget we have belighted the whole police service in Wiltshire, for the next er, eight or whatever number of years he said, I think that certainly is rather premature. I have hopes that this bill will very much, will be very much amended, er, when it comes to the Commons. Erm, Mr mentioned about erm, the new provisions would cut down the paperwork, work and put more policemen on, police on the beat. But erm, the Chief Constable himself, and I have heard him say this, has no confidence that the paperwork will be reduced and that any er, more constables will be seen on the beat. I'm also very worried, and this has been mentioned erm, by Mr, that the er, the Home Secretary seems to regard the police constabulary as a mere crime busting organisation, whereas really, the preventative work, the crime prevention, the work in the schools and the community work is absolutely vital if we are ever to solve, erm, we're ever to stop, the er, if we're ever able to stop the rise in crime, and this really has to be done hand in hand, I feel with local councils, and I'm glad to say that there are some initiatives around, one of them in Mr 's own district, which is making erm, some very important steps towards that. Erm, one other thing that I want to make about erm, the victims, erm, I am very much er, involved with erm, victim support Wiltshire, and one of the problems with victim support Wiltshire is their work is increasing all the time because the crime rate goes up, and every time there is more crime there is more victims, but the, the Government has not yet said that they will put the money up that they erm, that they er, the grant up that they give to the victim support. If perhaps the Government were to fund victim support properly, Erm, Mr who was burgled and has never got over it might perhaps have had a visit and some counselling from a victim support worker, and that would be a very good thing. Thank you very much. [Coleman:] Mr. [Small:] Thank you Chairman. Colonel really can't have it all ways. Er, in his er, comment just now he er, referred to the enor, the enormous er, amount that it was costing this council to er, fund the special protection service. Erm, when I drew attention to this, one of the first things I did when I got elected to this council, erm, we get papers back which seem to suggest that in fact the Home Office are funding it at a level which, dare I say suggests that we might even make a small profit, er and I have in fact recently been approached by colleagues from Gloucestershire, asking us how we manage in that er, er exercise, because they're concerned about the high cost of er, protection for certain royal establishments in their county. And they're most interested on how we er, achieve this exercise. The fact of the matter is, that the police are getting more money, and they do need to er, manage their resources most carefully. And yes we did argue, I think there were fourteen meetings of the finance working party involving hours and hours of consideration and we were er, treated to four meetings lasting fourteen hours, fourteen hours, in total. We were treated to the long diatribes of detailed considerations about the cost of paper clips and God knows what else. The fact of the matter, at the same time, erm, as you yourself have said, Chairman, we are in a situation where we have four communication rooms coming down to two next year hopefully, I personally think it should come down to one, but lets recognise that they're costing the police authority one point six million pounds, they're tying up forty-one uniformed police officers, and something like fifty er, civilian officers on those exercises. So lets be quite clear that there is still a great deal of slack in the police budget,whi money that could be used to er, put policemen on the beat. Mention has been made to the paperwork, I think that it's worth reminding ourselves that a lot of the paperwork that has been generated, is a direct result of Conservative government introduced legislation, particularly cri criminal justice er, legislation, which requires a considerable amount of paperwork, erm, to be completed by officers, quite often in long, in longhand, and not making use of technology, where in fact they er, a great deal of time and effort could be con, er could be er, saved. Members, other members have referred to the crime prevention exercise, I'm very pleased that this council has actually grasped that nettle and is going to fund a crime prevention co-ordinator at some stage in the near future. I notice it's not coming out of the police authority budget, it's coming out of publi, er this, this er committee's budget. But, we, we really need to er, put the cart before the horse, or the horse before the cart as you may say, I mean, we are now being told by the leader of the Conservative group, that er, we're going to, we, we should be supporting the idea of amateur parish constables. I look to the day when the, to see what the tabloids make, when one of these individuals gets clobbered over the head er, in carrying out their duties. I think this is policing on the cheap, and it is something profoundly to be regretted. I would much rather see more emphasis placed on er, enhancing the special constabulary, er, because I think that is a, a far more er, productive initiative. I mean I am totally opposed to vigilantes on the street, and that's what I think a parish constable service er, runs the risk becoming. But at the end of the day, there simply is no point in punishing criminals if you can't catch them, and I think it is absolutely critical that we should be devoting our attention er, to policing that catches criminals and prevents crime, and I entirely support the, the points just made about the er, initiatives within the community particularly in the schools, because I think it is absolutely critical that we er, promote a society where crime should not pay. Sadly, in modern Conservative dominated Britain, crime pays. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] Thank you Chairman, I, I, I'm rather amazed actually, at Colonel 's er, comments because er, in Stratton St Margaret there has been a sixty-one percent increase in crime, and a four and a half percent detection, decrease in the detection and prosecution of crime, and I was absolutely amazed when he come out with the figure that there's going to be a seven hundred and fifty- three thousand pound shortfall in the police budget, when on the radio, in my car this morning, from a very reputable source of Wiltshire, there was a police officer on there this morning, saying how good they were in producing a freebee newspaper for distribution to every household in the county, to show the police offi, the Chief Constable's report this year. My question is to, that er, police officer or to the Chief Constable, or to anybody who can answer, how much is it gonna cost that, for that paper to be produced, and would it not be better spent in putting a police officer in Stratton St Margaret, where there hasn't been one on the beat for the last six months, to help us reduce the number of er, of crimes committed in Stratton. I would like an answer to that. How much is it gonna cost the police authority to produce this freebee newspaper? [Coleman:] Mr [speaker006:] Thank you Chairman, I despair sometimes when I listen to, to everybody trying to make points out of a discussion like this. I mean, what we're talking about is that throughout the whole of the world, there has been a tremendous increase in crime, whether it be in Britain, in France, in Germany or wherever. What we're also talking about, is elderly people being able to go out at night and not be too frightened to go out at night. And the only way round that situation, that may not even amount to crime when they're put in fear, it may amount to yobbos on the pavement, or people er, cycling on the pavement or just being their usual threatening loutish selves. At the end of the day, the only way to do something about that is to put more men on the streets. I mean increasingly we see that we're, we get more constables here more constables there, but they don't ever appear to be actually out on the streets, and until we can get more men on the streets with the deterrent effect that their appearance has, let alone anything else, we are not gonna get much further. Our, most of our rules and most of our laws are made by people who are frightened of losing their property, and not the sort of people who are frightened of being mugged at night. If they were the sort of people that were frightened to go out, up to the newspaper shop or something like that, our penalties and our, our priorities would be slightly different. And my plea is, apart from all the politics that's going on, and all your wrong and I'm right, etc, etc, etc, if we've got sixty-odd police constables available, then, somehow or other we ought to try and find the money to resource them. If that money has to come out of the existing budget, then we should, or the Chief Constable, or the Police Committee ought to look at the priorities again. But the number of police constables that we can have available, would make a big difference to the lives of the very ordinary people, and that's where we should be looking at first. [Coleman:] Thank you. Miss. [speaker002:] Thank you. Yes, well, I mean I'm very happy to be able to agree totally with that erm, people who make the laws aren't the people who suffer from the the physical, and matters might be a great deal better if erm, they paid a bit more attention, I do hope that he would agree however, erm, that police officers who are female also have a good effect on the streets, because he was acting as if erm, it was only the male person who were any use, and I'm sure that is not so. Erm... [sigh] peo, people can't have it all ways, there hasn't been any cut in the police service, in the police budget, I'm sorry, erm we have for many years funded the police in a very generous way. This county council has funded them more than social services erm, for, I don't have the figures in front of me today, but for a long time, erm, this is unlike the overwhelming majority of county councils, who spend more on social services than they do on the police. So as a proportion of our budget, they have been well funded by Wiltshire, and I don't think anybody could dispute that. It, it's possible that the, the, the manning per hectare in this very rural county is lower than in central London, I wouldn't be at all surprised. But erm, you know, it's, it's like erm, if you talk about erm, funding per head or funding for the, for the overall spaces, you know, if it's Mr, he always wants to be funded by the, the mile of roadblock for the population, because we have rather a lot of one to the other, and I think there may be a similar situation with the police. Erm, I don't see how anybody can possibly say that the police are not privileged. Every other committee, or part of this county council has, with the exception of probation service which we did today, social services and libraries which we did at budget revue, have been funded at last year's cash limit plus one and a half percent. The exception to this is the police, who have had by far the largest addition to that, they haven't lost money when they lost S S A, erm, we have been ge, extremely generous to them, far more than to any other committee this year, erm, and although we haven't given them money for, to pay awards because we don't know exactly what it is. We've never given money directly for pay awards anyway, because if you do that, that's what the claim always is, you know. There is sufficient money in balances to pay our share of that, if we need to do so, and I think making scare stories about it doesn't do anything towards what I hope we all want, which is an efficient, effective police force in this county, protecting us erm from crime, and helping to prevent as much crime as possible. I, I urge you to support 's motion. [Coleman:] Mr. [Small:] Thank you Chair. I think has summed up quite well there I think, which, what everyone's aims is, which is that we want an effective and efficient police force, which everyone has got confidence in to make sure that it protects citizens against crime in this country, and nothing could be, I don't think anybody who is erm, civilised in this county or this country would want anything different. But I think that there has been some interesting arguments put forward this morning about the act, there's more policemen, or sorry, should I say police officers available to Wiltshire. But if the Home Secretary feels that we can have more, er, er, police officers, why doesn't he give us the money so we can employ them. I mean it's as simple as that, and I Colonel 's comments, saying how hard done by Wiltshire police constabulary could be next year because we haven't set over the odds budget for this year so that the Home Secretary can take it on. If he, the Home Secretary feels that Wiltshire's so badly funded next year, if he's a caring and considerate Home Secretary, then he'll put more money into Wiltshire and provide more police officers for Wiltshire. It makes a change that the burden of more want is put on the central government instead of local authorities, because too often in the past, central government has said, in many issues, oh, we think you should have that, but the responsibility for paying for it comes from the local authority. But we're not going to give you any more money. So it'll be nice to see the tables turned, and Mr start, keep rather quiet about the number of extra policemen, sorry, police officers needed in this county, and other counties in the country, because he'll have to pay for it himself won't he? And that'll be a t turn up for the books for him. But what does amaze me, is the reason why this motion came forward in the first place. It was quite obvious Mr thought he had something up his sleeve to embarrass the Labour party and Liberal Democrat parties of this, this council. He thought, when this Lieutenant Colonel came back to him and said, oh my God the police budget's in problems, we've got em here, that they put something onto the council agenda. And he's had it slapped in his face, because this council has provided an adequate budget for the police authority, it has pr, treated it fairly and squarely like every other council committee, and made sure that the service they provide is adequate for the people of this county. It's funny that he flags at the interests of the party of crime. I think nowadays we all know, that the flagships of the conservative party, crime is no longer a thing they can fly high. We're on about taxation this week, well the- they're in trouble over that now. The party of low taxes, the party of high taxes they failed on that. I won't mention back to basics because I know that's really embarrassing for them [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Small:] [LAUGHTER] so we- not, we'll go over that very quickly as possible []. So we have had a failing government, we've had a failing Tory administration, and the people who are interested in looking after this county and all it's services within the budget set by central government, has made sure that we have got a good police force, which it will not receive cuts in it's services, cuts in it's er, it's, it's er, forces, and make sure that other services, like education, social services, libraries, highways and everything else will also be adequately funded in this county. [Coleman:] Right, well I'm going to reply to the debate, and then I hope we can move to a vote, ah, oh I didn't see your hand earlier Mr, I'm sorry. [Okinson:] Thank you Chairman. I think enough has been said regarding this today, in relation to this, I think we have supported our police force, we have a fine police force in this county. We're very supportive of it and have been. Unfortunately, as was earlier on, central government has led the attacks, it's led the attacks through Sheehey right the way through, and we were supportive of our police then, I think not only of this county, but of all counties, and all county police forces said the same, and we will support our police force, and certainly this budget recommends itself to that. If central government wishes to increase those expenditure levels when they go over, that is down to them. They've been trying to get the police on the cheap for too long, and blaming us, and now I think the tables are very reversed. [Coleman:] Thank you. As I say I think I'll sum up and have a vote, and then I intend to break for lunch on conclusion of this item. I think what I find most unfortunate, is the intellectual dishonesty of the Home Secretary. He's a very bright man, Michael Howard, but it's quite clear that he's much more concerned with grabbing the headlines and finding scapegoats, than with taking action through law that will actually improve the chance, both of preventing crime and of detecting crime, and then even more so, deterring people from re-offending, and it's most distressing to see that when research showed that a particular non-custodial method of punishment is effective in perhaps fifty or seventy or eighty percent of cases, whereas prison is not, he goes for prison, he goes for picking on squatters, he goes for picking on the defendants right to silence so that we can see more people like er, jailed when they were innocent. But I've left that sort of civil liberty out of this motion today, because we can't deal with all the, because we can't deal with everything all at once, but perhaps it can be tou touched at council, because we had Colonel, who also doesn't like to be confused with the facts, trying to tell us that next year the, or the year after next, budgets will be cash limited, but I've got news, they already are cash limited. They are trying to suggest that erm, somehow this year we're cutting the police budget, he seems to have forgotten that last year when he was chairman of the police authority, a three hundred thousand pound cut, a genuine cut was made in the police authority budget, budgets were cut to make up to make up to that three hundred thousand, at the discretion of the Chief Constable, and to the credit of Mrs, and her other colleagues in the police committee, virtually no attempt was made to make political capital at that time, instead of which now, when all we've seen is a request for the Chief Constable to defer proposed new spending, all of a sudden this is presented as a cut. Now reference was made to the police finance working party which met for a long period of time, and unfortunately made no progress whatsoever in zero base budgeting. There's obviously been a misunderstanding there, a lack of communication or whatever, but whereas some departments have got to grips with the issue, unfortunately police wor finance working party just stuck to the traditional way, rather reminiscent of Mr 's old budget working party days, which doesn't get to grips with the real needs and the real costs. Now Mr referred to a two percent clear up rate, I'm not quite certain what figure that is, I know in Wiltshire it's much better than that in the thirties and forties. But nationally the clear up rate has fallen under the Conservatives from forty-one percent to twenty six percent, and there is no excuse at all for a freeze on the number of police officers when we were promised an extra thousand. Ah, but you're going to be getting some extra police officers by taking them off er, paperwork, er you're gonna get two thousand three hundred I see in the press, well that as shown, that of course will be twenty three, but if anybody here thinks the Chief Constable's gonna produce twenty three new police officers through reductions in paperwork and through the other initiatives the Home Secretary has announced, well I don't believe them, and we shall have to wait and see. This council needs to take seriously crime prevention and crime detection and most of all fear of crime, and that's why it's become part of the policy committee's concern, and I think that's with the police committee's agreement, for years they've been trying to tell us to get involved in crime prevention, and from next year we're going to do that. Crime prevention is not just about retribution, about making the little buggers pay. It's about preventing crime, because people who are burgled would rather not have been burgled in the first place. [speaker002:] Hear, hear. [Coleman:] And of course the deterrents that we've had, over the years, when they they've been of the emotive and knee jerk sort, and I remember the short sharp shock for instance, under Whitelaw, they didn't work, because they weren't thought out, they were just to make them clap at the Tory party conference. To his credit, Lord Whitelaw having been forced to bring in the short sharp shock, dropped it when it was proved not to work. Everybody hopes that we've forgotten about that, but we haven't, and we're reminded of it because of the courage of Lord Whitelaw and his advanced age and ill health, getting on to the T V last week and saying the Home Secretary is wrong to nationalise the police. [speaker002:] Hear, hear. [Coleman:] In fact, Conservative opposition in the Lords is proving very important, and if Colonel is concerned about the future level of the police budget, why doesn't he do a bit more to stop this nationalisation of the police going through parliament at the moment, and I just want to quote the, the words of Conservative Chairman of the Sussex police authority, over the years from nineteen eighty-two to nineteen ninety-three, four of them, and the most senior of course, who led the Association of County Councils for the Conservatives. These ill judged proposals present a dangerous step towards a politicised national police force. They are irrelevant to the battle against crime, and the improved efficiency of the police service which we all support. I can't put it better than that. And finally, the criminal injuries compensation scheme, to cut the amounts paid to people who are victims of gang rape, to cut the amount paid to people who are victims of child abuse, that shows just how much the Home Secretary cares about the victims of crime, and his other measures show that he's far more concerned with his own career, with pleasing the Conservative party conference, and with trying to do anything, anything I mean he's brought in whatever it is, twenty-seven proposals, one or two of them are bound to work, if you throw enough stuff at the fan, some of it usually hits the target. But we've got to take the issue seriously. Mr is still moving a motion which refers to the party conference proposals which have now moved on to bills before the house. He might be more constructive if he cared to pick which items from that he agrees with, we might even find a measure of agreement on one or two of the issues, because they're not all rubbish. But I move my motion, and I ask for those in favour to please show... I'm so sorry, Mr 's amendment. Those in favour of Mr 's please show... Those against. That is lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show... those against... That is carried. adjourn for lunch and be back at two. [speaker002:] [break lunch] [Coleman:] Welcome back. Item... twenty-one, regional representation on the European Union Committee of the Regions. I er, move the motions set down in the order paper and, does anybody else wish to speak on this? Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] aye [Coleman:] Those against. [speaker002:] [shouting] [] [Coleman:] Oh, That is carried. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. I don't think it's, I don't think it's an essential office motion, otherwise Cornwall would have done it by now. Item twenty- two one budget review sub-committee minutes, I move to receive the minutes from the budget sub-committee those in favour say aye. [speaker002:] aye [Coleman:] And against... that is carried. Erm, twenty-two two the recommendations not yet dealt with, the first is the review of the County Farms estate, and I will move paragraph nine one, that is to say the recommendation of the property services sub-committee... [paper rustling] okay, here we are, which is a recommendation to this committee to adopt option one as set out in the submitted report namely to maintain the County Farms estate at around it's present size, and to manage it in accordance with the nineteen eighty-eight review of the estate. I will say in moving that, would I note that the property services, the property sub- committee I should say, is receiving a further report on recommendations on how to preserve the long-term viability of the estate, which I consider to be the right priority, erm, the long- term viability of the estate is essential for the value both as an estate and for the value of it er, to us should we need to dispose of any of it for development land in the future. Erm, Mr. [Small:] Thank you chair. I wish to move an amendment which is erm, that we defer any decision on this until the property, the director of property services has made his report to the property sub- committee on the erm, future, stroke to the organisation, which is th, the subject of his next report to property sub- committee. [Coleman:] Seconded. [Small:] Yeah, I think that we need to look into more depth the issue of the County Farms estate, we agreed from the start it was something that could not be rushed, and we had to, the principle question that needed to be answered was that was there a viability for County Farms or role for County Farms in the nineteen nineties. I think that that question has been answered, and I think the role of the estate has been answered in the report put by Mr. But since the initial motion was put forward by the policy and resources committee the question of local government review has become more prominent within the minds of this council and other councils across the country, and I think that issue needs to be addressed before we make as a cou, a council our final decision on the County Farms estate. [Coleman:] Can I just clarify then, how far do you imagine this being deferred, that is to say are you awaiting the outcome of the local government commission report [Small:] No, I do believe that Mr 's report is coming to the March property er, sub-committee and then it will be the subsequent meeting of the policy and resources committee which will be at the end of March. [speaker002:] [microphone moved] er, any debate discussion will be deferred until the report as described in nine one two has been reported to the property committee, this is a report to the next meeting recommendations on how to preserve the long-term viability of the estate. So what happens to the resolution that, woolly resolution that came from property at the bottom of the budget page four, resolved? To that's that's dropped, that's all deferred is it? [Coleman:] Right, I'm the chairman of the meeting, so I'll try and tell you what I understand Mr has moved. He's moved that this matter be deferred. He's made reference, in his mov motion, to a report coming to the next property services sub-committee, and I recognise that report as referred to in nine two of these minutes of budget review sub-committee. Erm, and I understand that to be the position. Any other report, erm, such as to request the director of property services fully to explore all options for the disposal of all or any part of the County Farms estate for the maximum financial benefit to the County Council, that sort of report for instance has not been requested by the property sub- committee nor by any other committee with erm, er, as I understand it. According to Mr 's motion. Right, Mr. [Chalk:] Yes Chairman, we we did have this debate in er budget review as I remember it. Erm, if we are asking Mr to look at the long-term viability and the ways of preserving that, those options may be other than option one which was what you moved, and I think it's rather premature to actually go down a road that says we preserve it in it's present form with some disposals, when, we are asking for a report for it's future viability, which may mean complete disposal, or may not, and I think, that, that's why I've seconded Mr 's amendment, because it's right we should wait for that that report to come to property, know the full facts, and then we can make a decision as to which option we want for the County Farms estate. So it's only a matter of two months and than I think we can make a long-term decision, not the short-term. I there is a worry of course, that, er County Farms if we happen to end up in three unitary authorities, could be said to be not a core activity of those three new authorities, especially the core of an urban one, and it may be that if we're not careful the County Farm estate can end up in the hands of the residuary body for sale, and I think what we're looking, asking Mr to do, is to find ways of, of moving it forward, without ha falling into that net, which may not be what we want. [Coleman:] Mr. [speaker008:] Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm just a little bit concerned that if we do delay it while discussions are going on about the unitary authorities and such like, we'll put restrictions on Mr running it as a commercial enterprise, and I think we have got to make sure that any long term deferral on this, we don't inhibit him rationalising selling off the odd cottage and this sort of thing, and the farmhouse as we go along, and amalgamating ones because I think it's, he's got to be able to run it as a commercial proposition during the course of deliberations. [Coleman:] Mr. [Okinson:] Yes, Chair, I'd be very sad if, if anything that was passed here meant that Mr wasn't fully exploring all avenues as described in the terms of resolution passed through budget revue. And I take this opportunity to say that, erm, I had, I moved this at budget revue, and my intention was to move erm, pretty much the wording that Mr moved at property, but I was unable to obtain that wording by the time of the meeting, so I put this forward, erm, knowing that it obviously was different words, but but with that same sense, that we do have to address some very real issues about County Farms and not to pussyfoot about it I think that er, any comparison between the County Farms and a commercial enterprise is a coincidence of terms, but I can't see how we can have forty million pounds worth of estate, as it's valued on the free market, to be making two hundred and ninety-one thousand pounds a year out of it, and think that that is commercial. I can't see how we've had a revue in nineteen eighty-eight which has recommended a very specific course of action, none of which appears to have been implemented, I don't see how we get a report which describes er, the intention of the county council as maintaining the ethos of the County Farms, whatever that is, as I, I don't recall any decisions like that, and certainly if we've made one, I'd be interested in being party to changing it, I think wha what we have to say is we've got a lot of land, are we using it to the best interest of the people of Wiltshire, and that is one thing it's addressing, not a, a way of preserving the County Estates as they are, not a way of keeping a hundred and twenty farmers and their families erm, as tenants of Wiltshire, I mean they're not gonna be out of jobs are they? I think there are many purposes that the County Farms should have, and we need to look at what is the best value financially, that we can obtain for the people of Wiltshire, so when everybody talks about they'd like their country schools maintained, they'd like this that or the other bought, they'd like Corsham station purchased, we could buy it easily if we sold a County Farm couldn't we? And the only thing that seems to stand in the way of doing anything commercially sensible with County Farms is that every time we deal with it, somebody says, ah, but it can only exist as an entity, let's keep it as that, let's pass it on to a trust, let's safeguard it, let's do this and that. Well I'd like to see a very open report, and that's why I Mr, and I'd like him to look at all the options, we're deferring this so that we can see what's possible, you know,, perhaps Hanson Trust would like to come along and offer us fifty million pounds for it, that'd be a fair deal wouldn't it, perhaps somebody else would do that. Perhaps erm, the Duchy of Cornwall would like to take back the land that we rent from them, in order that we can rent it on, lease, well we lease, I mean, same thing isn't it? Erm, we rent land from the Duchy of Cornwall, perhaps, er well you know long leasehold, we bought it this way, and we pay low rent. There are things around this, that I wonder what on earth we're doing and what is the best way forward and I would like to see that kind of report come back to us. And the reason I say it, and the reason I labour the point, is that I think amongst the problems that we've encountered particularly in budget review is to have chief officers and their staff producing reports in which they have a very clear vested interest. Not least in their own jobs. And I think it is a great pity, that this council is losing some of it's capacity to produce reports which are independent of the departments which are the most affected by them. I think the great sadness of the report coming forward on County Farms is that it's no doubt going to be produced by Mr, a further report, and erm, what, what can we say if he comes forward saying it's a wonderful institution and he wants to keep his job running it. Am I going to say oh, I think that's a very fair, free, independent thinking view. It may be it may not. I think that I would like those considerations borne in mind by Mr when he's doing his report, and I'd like us to have a very open view about what we do with the County Farms. [Coleman:] Well I'm going to disagree with Mr on a number of issues. He does seem to suggest, that if you're directly interested or if you have a direct interest in something you can't take an objective view, and I would say that actually, members have shown their ability to erm, to achieve something different from that, the way they wear different hats at different committees, Mr comes to mind where he will argue for the D S O's, at the D S O managing board, and for the client at Education Committee. And I actually think it is coming close to a professional slur on Mr to suggest that he can't take an independent view. And what leads me to that conclusion is the distortion that Mr brought in, in suggesting that the estate is worth forty million pounds. If you read the report at paragraph seventy, you'll see that it has an investment value in the region of eight million pounds, it's only worth forty million if you kill all the tenants overnight, which is rather drastic, vacant possession in other words. Now you might achieve vacant possession over a period of seven years. Vacant possession can't be er achieved er, er overnight, as you appreciate but if the Government's agricultural er land tenancy, hey don't keep interrupting. If the Government's agricultural land tenancy reform proposals go through, which I rather hope they do, it'll be a little while yet, we could well see a change in the security of tenure issue, which might make it easier to achieve er, vacancy and vacant possession. And it comes down to a basic difference of approach to this. Either you consider that the County Farms are playing a role set down by law and supported over the years of an, which no other authority and no other body in the country can provide, and which is a socially valuable role, and that is to provide the first step in farming, and clearly they do. Or you think that all they are is another piece of silver to flog off like Mrs Thatcher flogged off the nationalised industries. I don't consider, I don't consider that the severity of this county council's financial position justifies this, in the flog it off at all costs approach. Now, what Mr has moved is to defer the matter, and I'm in mind of to accept that. But I would make clear to Mr if he looks at the minutes of the budget review sub-committee, that the suggestion of the director of property services wastes his time fully exploring all options for the disposal of all or any part of the County Farms estate, for which he probably asks for a large amount of money, since it involves an enormous amount of wasted time, is not been agreed, it's a non-delegated item, it was a recommendation of this committee which has not been moved at this committee, and it was a most unfortunate and woolly form of words. What's been moved [speaker002:] Hear hear. [Coleman:] is to defer the matter pending the director of property services report which the property sub-committee properly called for at it's last meeting. I'm happy to accept that amendment, and I would put the motion, as amended, to the vote. Those in favour please show... those against... that is carried. [paper rustling] [speaker002:] Did you have a bad lunch chair? [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] I had a lovely lunch... I just thought I'd try and get my own way for once. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Chairman in your haste to get your own way for once, I mean, I had my hand up for about ten minutes and I thought that er, er our friend on your right had appraised you of that, because I think that you gave just as much a distorted view of what the real problem is, as perhaps Mr did, and I think that the way you railroaded that one through does you no credit at all. Yeah,Ch cha chair, it is possible for Mr by moving a, another small but you know, perhaps relatively insignificant motion on, on this same item, as we've not moved to the next one, and I will, I will happily second it, in order to enable him to speak to it, erm, to actually express the views, and very valuable ones, which he does hold. He is actually one of the few amongst us, who is probably quite expert on these matters. He would, he would be worth listening to, I think. Chairman, is that to be the case. Chair, chair point of order, you don't, point of order you, Mr doesn't need to move an an amendment or anything else, you can still accept debate on any item on the agenda until you've called the next agenda item, irrespective of the motion on the table. I know you do Chair, you know what you're doing but I'm saying it's a waste of time us having to move one. Chairman, what a let down this is gonna be. [LAUGHTER] You asked for it. For what it's worth, my opinion in property, and my opinion now, is that... we need to retain if we can, a viable unit for County Farms. In other words, a unit which comprises several farms which is big enough for us to move tenants about, and big enough for us to retain a management structure. What we don't or shouldn't do, is to regard every County Farm as a sacred cow. There are opportunities for development in the Swindon front garden, in the Chippenham front garden, the Devizes front garden, wherever, and it is my belief that since this county council originally purchased those farms, and have since maintained them, that if there is going to be a development windfall, then that should accrue to this county council and not to Thamesdown or whoever else it happens to be. The, the problem is, that nobody will ever take, and I suppose it's possible that I don't take, a balanced view of this. Everybody's in their own camp, and it, it, it's only when you come to consider, and I mean my group is nowhere near behind me on this, because we have farmers who, who again think that anything to do with County Farms is sacrosanct. But until you consider the amount of money tied up in County Farms, and the return it gives us, and the, the subsidy if you like of so few people, and you think that school can't have toilets and things like that, then these should all go into the decision making melting pot, and this council should not blind itself to the various options that there could be, and in those circumstances Mr I think should be allowed to explore the possibilities of the market. In as much as, if we are suddenly told, divest yourselves of County Farms, then we will be in a much better position to make a balanced decision, and to maximise return from those County Farms if we had that information available. I do not myself think, that Mr ever produces a biased report on anything, and I would think that, erm, on reflection Mr may think that he overstepped the mark there, er... I feel that we should, if we can, defer this in it's entirety, which also includes, the note at the bottom, that would allow Mr to go out and, and, and explore the possibilities. That's all he's gonna do, this council retains the final decision, and we wish to make that decision with the benefit of all the knowledge that is available. And if somehow or other the, the, the whole of that er, erm, number nine, including the can be deferred, and I believe it should be, then that is what I would wish to happen, I would wish Mr to continue to have the freedom to see what the options are for this county council. [Coleman:] Right, now there's one, we've made a decision to defer consideration of this report, but because both Mr and Mrs had indicated they wanted to speak before I took the vote, I'm prepared to take the speeches, but I don't know that there's very much of a motion that can legally be moved. Mr [speaker008:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, I moved the original motion, and the thinking at the time was, after a lot of discussion, that eight one as it appears on the agenda, to maintain the estate at around it's level was the correct decision. And then we added eight two, which asked the director to explore the long-term viability of the estate, now we made that, and I said so at the time, the answer to that could be either positive or negative. This left it to Mr, to come up with sufficient information to enable that decision to be made. Thank you. [Coleman:] Mrs I excluded you from the speech after you asked the question [speaker006:] Erm I hope two sentences, thank you Mr Chairman. One is, is really, I felt I should reply in support of Mr concerning some of Mr 's remarks. I don't know whether he's read the County Farms Estate report, but it was actually option two, was one of the proposals we had to consider, which was to [clears throat] was to dispose of about a third of the estate, reduce it from twelve thousand acres to nine thousand acres, which was actually rejected at erm, the property sub-committee by all parties, including Labour. Thank you Mr Chairman. [Coleman:] Right, next item... twenty two A, twenty two two B, commission application for additional funding. It's a recommendation from the budget review sub-committee at minute six. [paper rustling] Er, I move to note the decision of the budget review sub-committee. Miss oh, Mrs. [speaker002:] Thank you. I'd just like some clarification of what, what this resolution from budget review actually means. Does it mean that P and R today are actually supporting the establishment, establishment of those posts, and we are going to go and get the money, or what? Thank you. [Coleman:] I, I, that, that is the answer's in the negative, we're not setting up those posts or funding them today, but they've enabled us, they've prompted us to carry out a revue, I think, I wasn't present at budget review it. [speaker002:] Mr. [speaker009:] In moving these matters from commissioning in grant A erm, to this committee, erm, even if Social Services had had the money available, if they would have still been moved to this committee. The purpose of that, or the reasoning behind f behind that, was that, over the last few years erm, this type of expenditure has been charged not to Social Services but to the section one three seven account. Which the treasury is responsible for, and this committee is responsible for. Erm, so that the, the purpose of bringing some of these corporate activities back into Policy and Resources where they can perhaps determine how that erm, is going to be managed in the future. And it was the reasoning behind the erm, the resolution at budget review. There's just one point I'd make on erm, the first one, regarding the, th, Wiltshire and Thamesdown Racial Equality Council. Erm, the director's report under statutory responsibilities, does say that under Race Relations act, local authorities have a duty, erm, it's a little bit stronger than that actually in the act. It states it shall be the duty of local authorities, there i-, and on that point I, you know, in this area, I don't think that Wiltshire County Council has done, or spent a great deal of money in actually furthering those. [Coleman:] Thank you. Mr. [speaker004:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, seeing this here, does it mean that anybody that loses er, a vote in a sub-committee can then move it to the budget review to have a second go at winning it? [Coleman:] I honestly don't think that's what happened, but, Mr. [speaker008:] Chairman, I I note with surprise the attempt by Thamesdown C A B to get extra money, and I w I would wish guidance on how I could join Devizes C A B into the same er, situation. Would I need to, to er, ask for Devizes C A B to considered by the er, the Chief Executive in his report. Would that be sufficient? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] Right, let's have the Chief Executive. [speaker009:] Er, I think there may be a bit of confusion about this minute. My understanding is what the budget sub-committee, well what the Social Services er, committee were saying, was there are a number of grants which in their view are not peculiar or specific to Social Services but are of a corporate nature. Budget sub-committee said, we understand that, what we're asking, what we ask is that the er, director of finance and the Chief Executive look at it and come back with a report. That report would include such grants as we may feel are of a which are of more corporate nature, rather than specifically a service based one, and how we would recommend the council to deal with them. At the moment, it is not transferring, nor has anybody agreed to transfer the burden of those applications to the policy committee. [Coleman:] Well er, er lots of hands, one at a time, erm, [speaker002:] Sir, with due respect to all members, the officers will make an objective assessment when they report. They will not be pressurised as to what they should put on or should not put on. [speaker008:] Chairman, I, I, I, I object to that, because I think that that wasn't either the tone of my question or or the implication of my question. What I'm saying is, that if the Chief er Executive and the fin Chief Finance Officer whoever, is going to make a report, I don't wish him to confine his report to Thamesdown C A B money advice service, I wish him also to consider Devizes C A B money advice service and start regrading. I thought that was fairly straightforward, and didn't deserve the answer it got. [speaker009:] We are looking at or, we will be looking at all grants that are made by all committees, to decide which ones in our view should be recommended to you to be treated as a corporate kind of grant. [speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, to actually raise this issue. I mean, I think one, the first thing to be said is that one can assure members covering all the other C A B's was that they actually got their bids in full. If the Thamesdown one didn't, er, the officers for their own reasons have separated out this particular er, activity, erm, and I felt at the time that it was unreasonable to give a hundred percent funding to er, most C A B's but not to one. And I, like Mr ask that this issue should in fact be addressed, we should be looking at their total responsibilities, and I I support the action of the budget review in saying that er, we should be looking at this with a view to it being a corporate responsibility. Er, the I I also make the point, that er, my understanding is having now talked to a number of the other C A B's, that in fact they were looking to Thamesdown money advice centre because this money was actually to replace funds that previously had been er, available through the Allied Dunbar sponsorship scheme, and which has, which I gather was withdrawn er, at very short notice, and they were looking to Thamesdown to er provide that support and resource as a county resource, and I I therefore felt that it was right to bring it forward. But the important point here I think, is that this is a corporate, or may be a corporate res responsibility, and therefore my understanding is that the officers are going to look at those parts which may be looked at as a corporate responsibility, and I would therefore erm, assume that one would look at all the C A B services in that light. [Coleman:] Yes, thank you. Er, Mr. [speaker009:] Thank you Chairman. I would like, coming back to the erm, racial equality councils, taking into account statutory responsibilities, and I know that certain statutory responsibilities often have in very small print at the end of the act, subject to available resources. I'm not sure that that exists in this case. Erm, but reading it very carefully, and it says, local racial equality councils as well as being supported by the Commission for Racial Equality, and I think that is a very important as well as being supported, are also entitled to receive financial assistance from local authorities. It does appear however, the application made to us, is exclusively local authority support and not a part of an overall support that includes the commission for racial equality. I think that definitely need to be looked into, as does the er, requirement of this particular post within the act. Now that is the type of thing that I would like to see come back for legal opinions on that statutory responsibility, the level of it, and the reasons for it. [Coleman:] I think, the reference is a general reference, and the minute is a general minute. Erm, there are a number of issues, there are three separate issues there's the C A B issue, which I remember for years trying to get additional staff funded in the North Wiltshire C A B from from this council and we couldn't afford it then and we can't afford it now. And in the end the district council were able to afford a bit of funding towards staff, which broke a tradition that district councils tended only to fund premises, erm, and indeed the district council have done that as well in our case, recently by moving them to better premises. There's, there's the Racial Equality council issue, where erm, I mean I think there's er, I would like to look again at the degree to which compliance and contract compliance can be achieved through the county council's procedures which we looked at about four years ago, and I would see that at least as important as working and funding outside activities. But erm, in a sense both of those are subsidiary to the general erm, point of the recommendation of the motion of the debate, which is that, erm, since we're entreatingly trying to set corporate priorities and a corporate policy for this council, certain voluntary sector organisations such as C A B and C R, C R E's, clearly work in that sort of field, and clearly have the sort of objectives which fit, which may fit into our own corporate objectives. Erm, I'm, I don't know to what degree the specific er cases for development workers erm, and indeed the extra funding for Thamesdown fit into our corporate responsibilities, because we haven't phrased them yet, and we haven't seen the report. But I do think the specific point you make as to whether there's any prospect of the National Commission for Racial Equality putting any money towards the development worker that's wished, ought to be addressed by somebody at some point in the context of preparing the next report. Erm, was there somebody else had their hand up? No? Can I move that we mo go to, I'll put this to a vote then, those in favour of the recommendation from budget review please show... and the against... that's carried. [paper rustling]... Twenty three, twenty three one. The minutes of the Economic developments and Tourism sub-committee meeting tenth of January, I move that those are received. Those in favour please say aye... and the against... they're received. Number two the Rural Development Area for South West Wiltshire... [paper rustling] [cough] and I move the recommendations as shown at erm, one, two, three, four, five and six in minute fourteen of the minutes of. Those in favour please show... [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And the against... that is carried. Item twenty four [microphone moved] meeting held on the eleventh of January are received... those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And the against... that is carried. Twenty four two, the re- designation of the director of public protection, the Chief Executive to report. [speaker009:] Er, sir, er yesterday I received a letter from the Institute of Trading Standards Administration, and if I may I'll read a paragraph from it. [reading] My institute would wish for it's concern that having striven to establish the statutory qualification, the Diploma in Trading Standards, and consequently persuading employing authorities as officers holding that qualification use the title Trading Standards Officers now sees the potential of confusion []. The institute clearly does not wish to interfere with the er, council's rights er, to decide what it should call er people. Er, I don't know how members, er, may feel about it. I, I appreciate that one of the concerns was the use of the word director, er, and maybe it would er, help us all out of the problem, after all, you have decided to merge the two departments, and therefore calling them er, Chief Officer, using the two department's names seems to work against what your attempts have been, and therefore maybe Chief Public Protection Officer, rather than director. You have a Chief Fire Officer. [Coleman:] I know this caused an immense amount of debate at Personnel sub-committee, and I thought that Personnel sub-committee had come to a reasonable solution. I note that the, this Institute of Trading Standards Administration suggests a title such as Director of Consumer and Trades Services, Director of Health and Consumer Services, Head of Regulatory Services, and Department of, I don't want to, you can't call a person department. [speaker009:] I think it, I think it's a combined [Coleman:] Director of Trading and Consumer Protection. They're not trying to push, they are only trying to be helpful, but I think it is a material matter for the committee to consider. Mr. [Small:] I was just having a word with one of your colleagues here trying to take up what Mr 's point was and I think we've come up maybe with a compromise, is that we call him the County Public Protection Officer. And I will move that. Mr will be able to sleep silently in his bed. [Coleman:] Yes, the problem was, with the previous suggestion of Chief Public Protection Officer, director, appeared to have confused with the responsibilities of the Chief Fire Officer, but if we say County Public Protection Officer. Mr, oh well, we've already appointed him so at least we don't have to alter the outcome. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] [LAUGHTER] Erm, Mr []. [Chalk:] As always, it's something very small that has the longest discussion property, and it was at personnel. Erm, I don't like long titles, and er, and erm, and I am wary also of the public protection words because I think they do infer, as, as was stated quite clearly at personnel, they do infer that the Chief Fire Officer's somewhere in there as well, and he isn't. Erm, surely we can find something, director of consumer protection or director of consumer [tape ends] [Coleman:] Miss [speaker002:] Well, I, I, I find that one difficult. Firstly because I understand there's some problem with the word director, which I don't understand, but everybody says, well I don't understand, but well, maybe some officer will explain that to me when I finish speaking. But if if you just say consumer protection, you're not covering the public health side of it awfully well. Erm, [sigh] that seems to me... Yeah, well an awful lot of this, this sort of waste disposal regulatory work and so on is, is very distantly removed from most consumers, and they would be rather surprised if they knew you were doing it. Well only, er thank you Mr Chairman, just very briefly to second the, the objections to the word director. I mean we have all had representations about this particular word of director, er, er, it implies the n er, the er, certain superiority of that service over another under public protection. Erm, Yes,. Erm, have we, did personnel receive anything from erm, the erm, from er, the Chief er Public Health Officer? I mean has there been any, because there may be some argument in having a quick go at it at public protection, and hearing from the new department what they'd like their chief officer to be called. Sir, er I und [Coleman:] Mr [speaker010:] I understand that one of the problems is the word consumer which is not er er, particularly liked in some quarters. Erm, and therefore you're thrown back at er finding something else, this sort of vague compromise of director of this that or this that and the other, er, er, appeared, and er it seems to me A long winded, er but also, it indicates something against what you've already tried to do, which is to merge the two together. Now I appreciate that some people seem to object to the words public protection, erm... I'm not certain why bearing in mind you have a public protection committee. [Coleman:] oh, come on. No, I, I'm. Still remember that we're debating Mr 's amendment which is director of consumer protection. Mr. [Small:] Chair, I think, er I think anyone can say that, that Mr, as the County Public Protection Officer isn't going to be in charge of the fire service. It's obvious the Chief Fire Officer will be in charge of the fire service, and I don't see there's any problem between the two. The public protection committee deals with the th, the consumer affairs, public health, trading standards and it therefore, the person who's in charge of those three departments should have the, the thing as public protection. The the fire service is separate but it reports to the public protection committee. I think it's quite obvious and quite distinct. [Coleman:] Mr [speaker002:] Sir I'm beginning to wish I'd never resurrected this matter. [LAUGHTER] But, there was concern about the title of the director of public protection. To answer the question of Mrs, I have spoken to Mr, he is Mr, and he has already explained, would like a short title, and would like to keep away from the previous department's tasks of trading standards and public health for obvious reasons. Erm, if members don't like the word consumer then I think they would have to use public, er it does cover, I I think the title County Public Protection Officer would er, er satisfy Mr and I don't think it would upset the Chief Fire Officer. [Coleman:] Right, those in fav... any more speakers [speaker002:] [whispering] mustn't forget. [] [Coleman:] Those in favour of Mr 's amendment, which is director of consumer protection please show... [speaker002:] One, two, three, four... [Coleman:] And those against. That is lost. Those in favour of Mr 's motion, county public protec er nearly, Mr. [Chalk:] I assume, Chairman, director is the right word, because we've used it amongst all the other, we've got the director of library services, we've got the director of property services and what have you. I believe it should be director of public protection. [Coleman:] Right, those in favour of Mr 's amendment seconded. Mr 's amendment is director of public protection, those in favour of that please show..., those against... Erm, we come to Mr 's motion, director [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] County public protection officer, those in favour please show... those against... Item twenty-five, the minutes of the property sub-committee held on the thirteenth of January. Erm, first of all I move that we receive the minutes. Those in favour of receiving the minutes please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And those against... that is carried. Er, twenty-five two A, the capital disposal of surplus property, Mr [speaker008:] [pages being turned] Thank you Mr Chairman, this was erm, a comment on the minutes at twelve two. Could we convey the thanks of the members of this committee to the property services and the chief executive's department, for their efforts in effecting sales and gaining large scale capital receipts for the county. Thank you. [Coleman:] Yes, I'd certainly second that, and I think you can see from the figures that er a great deal of work was done, and a great deal was achieved. The erm, with that addition I will move the recommendation in paragraph three of minute twelve of the property sub-committee's minutes, [reading] to make representation to the association of county council urging the Government to reconsider it's policy in not allowing local authorities permanently to make use of the full amount of capital realised from sales of assets. [] Mr. [Chalk:] Thank you Chairman. You moved that, that, that local authorities should be able to make use of the full amount of capital from it's receipts. Of course we do. You don't sell a house and keep the mortgage, we have debts. We have probably less debts maybe than some of the other authorities in Wiltshire, and Thamesdown has a far greater debt than ours. But it is only right, it's public money, that if we are owing money, that we should have to use some of the er money from realisation of assets, to repay the debt. If we were then to get to a position like Dorset County Council, who have no debts, they of course can spend a hundred percent of the money they realise from assets. And I get rather tired of the constant accusations that councils can't spend, they're not allow, they, they have to, they lose fifty percent of receipts, they don't lose them, they go to the benefit of the chargepay er tax, council tax payers of this county, in reducing the debt and reducing the debt burden of interest, er interest on the budget. And I'm quite happy with the present situation. [Coleman:] Miss [speaker002:] Well I think what Mr is really saying is that the Conservative round Dorset, in er, the first sort of, I don't know, six decades of this cen this century were rather more sensible than the Conservatives who ran Wiltshire at the same time, because they made sure they acquired some assets they could flog for development, and put themselves in this happy position, which the ones in Wiltshire had obviously failed to do. Erm, I'm quite sure that we ought to be able to spend this money, and I think it's it's very sensible and it would help a great deal with the problems that we have. And I think for Mr to pretend that the Government has nothing to do with our problems, is unfortunately becoming more and more threadbare as an excuse. [Coleman:] Right erm, oh Mr. [speaker006:] Chairman, er I don't often disagree with er Mr in front of me there, but I have been consistent in my approach over the years, er, wherever I've had the had the opportunity to speak at political meetings and ministers have been present. I have consistently said why don't they allow er, councils to spend the receipts from council houses on building new houses, and I've never been impressed with the replies nor the reasons. Er, and in this instance I have consistently erm, asked that we, we do all we can, to allow us to spend our capital receipts, and the fact that we had the holiday last year was er, er, of of great benefit to this this council, erm, there are er times when we should er perhaps be putting money into reserves or paying off debt, but this council should be allowed to make those decisions rather [speaker002:] Hear hear [speaker006:] rather than the appropriate minister, so, in this instance, and I I I can't support er on this issue. [Coleman:] I think, I think I would, having moved the recommendation would seek to clarify what we're asking the Government to reconsider, erm, because we're not saying what they should come up with as a new policy, but I think we could add the words, for capital investment, at the end of the motion, recognising that at one level of government, central government it has been the practice in the past, er when they had some capital they could sell in the form of British Telecom shares and er, indeed other nationalised industries, er not to use the er the results erm, er release this [clears throat] realised by that capital disposal for capital investment, instead to use it for revenue purposes, which was in the long term somewhat unfortunate. But it comes down to, first of all, whether it's sensible to borrow against assets, and all of us do if we're lucky enough to own our own homes we tend to have borrowed either our first mortgage or sometimes a second against it, and we make our own judgement, and I see there are some suggestions on how the Government spotted this with regard to schools in suggesting that perhaps schools could raise money by mortgaging their school buildings, of course [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] It doesn't sound quite so good when you put it at that sort of level, cause it puts a school at risk, but of course there's no reason why a county council shouldn't borrow considerably more than this council does, looked at on accounting principle, unless I'm wrong, and Mr I'm going to call in a minute, will correct me if I am. But it seems to me we've got more than enough assets to cover the borrowings we've got at the moment and indeed many more besides. It should be a matter of judgement for local authorities to what degrees they are indebted, because they do have to pay the interest, by and large from the er, from the money they raise on erm, on on council tenants, and and from other income. But er having added to the debate and added those words to the motion, I'll call Mr. [Okinson:] Yes Chair, I think Mr was quoting Michael Portillo wasn't he in about the er, when you sell a house you don't not pay off the mortgage, and of course what most people do is buy another house, sorry who was it? Oh alright. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Okinson:] When you, when you sell a house you pay off the mortgage of course, what most people do is, when they've sold their house and paid off the mortgage, they take out another mortgage and, and buy another house, because they need one to live in. Erm, what of course people like Mr Portillo do, is, sell other people's houses, pay off the mortgage and throw them out on the street. But, the reality is In Westminster, in Westminster city council, how many thousands of people thrown on the street, moved out but, yes. But of course, the Government already controls the capital borrowing that we can make. They control our borrowing limits. We've had a very restricted capital programme, which your group Mr, particularly Mr were complaining about earlier in this meeting, which restricts the amount of road- building we can do. Now if the Government wish to restrict the capital borrowing that we can make, which they do anyway, why do they need to restrict, also, what we do with the results of any spending, why don't they allow us to spend it perhaps, on the roads, that Mr would like to see built? [Coleman:] Mr [speaker010:] Thank you Mr Chairman. I don't know whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with Mr. But I think it is a point. I think if we go down not having a responsible position to our debts, repaying our debts in the long term, erm, we are going to be restricted on what we can borrow with the capital, because no government is going to, you know, my party or your party, is going to let us go on building debts, and more debts by giving us permission to borrow money and more money and more money. And it does worry me because, if we're going to go into unitory authorities whose going to take over these debts, if we're going to build them up? And what you said about mortgaging a school, how can a school mortgage it's school premises if we've already mortgaged it, with our eighty-five million borrowing, we've already got half the schools in this county on a mortgage anyway. So, you know, they're taking a second mortgage, not a first mortgage, because we've already mortgaged it. I would back Mr 's opinion, and I think we ought to take a responsible position towards paying off our debts. And if it means fifty percent of whatever we get in capital receipts going to pay off our debts, it's a worthwhile attitude, and I think we ought to take our debts responsible. We shouldn't just think we're not going to be here in two years time, it's somebody else's problem, they'll take over our debts. [Coleman:] I'll put it to the vote, those in fa, sorry, so sorry [speaker009:] Yes, I er, at the risk of getting unpopular with other people that live in Swindon today. Erm, let's cover one or two things, because about a year ago, in two articles in the local use, sorry who was it? allowed to sell the accumulated fund from council house sales, on building new houses, and two weeks later the deputy leader of the council, argued that he needed that money invested because the council couldn't exist without the interest on it. Now that's a case of having your cake and eating it, isn't it? And actually, when we come back to the paper in front of us, I would like to get one other thing clear. It's perfectly true that the front garden policy on the assets has been stated by Thamesdown Borough Council they don't want to sell it. That is Thamesdown Borough Council who don't own it. Er, and this came up several years ago, when this council went into conversation with the Goddard Estate, and the Goddard Estate wishing to dispose of our assets. At that particular moment of time, as the leader of the Labour group here, I had a discussion with the leader of the Labour group on Thamesdown Borough Council, with the political officer down there, and I was asked to resist any attempt to sell off the garden of Swindon, because once Thamesdown became a unitary authority, it would want that to sell for itself to get it's capital. Now that has never been denied by the leader of that council, although he keeps on, it is not Thamesdown's policy. You know it's a hypocrisy anything that comes from that side. [speaker002:] Point of order, Chairman, point of order, can I, can I Chairman, point of order, this is not Thamesdown council. Point of order, point of order, can Mr give any written evidence that the leader or Thamesdown Borough Council, in a meeting with him as leader of the Labour group on this council, that he made that statement? If he cannot, then I suggest Mr keeps quiet, because people could accuse him of lying for the sake of lying's sake. [Coleman:] Now I think it's, I think erm, the best question to ask in these circumstances is who benefits? And erm, it s it seems to be an entirely er rational position for any public politician, for instance, Mrs Thatcher before the seventy-nine election, denying that she had any plans to double V A T, or Mr Major denying some of the plans for raising taxes that we've come up with, or indeed denying plans to privatise the forestry commission. Well he did [LAUGHTER] That is not the matter before us. The matter before us is whether to recommend, whether to make representations to the A C C as shown in minute three, with the words for capital investment added at the end. Those in favour please show... and the against... [speaker002:] Yes. [Coleman:] Thank you. That is carried. [paper rustling] Twenty-five two v, minute fourteen of property sub-committee disposal of assets in the borough of Thamesdown. We are recommen, I will move that we amend the County Council's policy of consultation with the borough and district councils, by increasing the three week period referred to in the report, under er paragraph six, to six weeks. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those in fav, well Mr [speaker006:] Chairman, this is not what we, er, agreed before, and it seems to me that there's been some re-thinking on this, and I hesitate to say that once again, er, members are trying to face all ways because they don't want to upset somebody, but the policy that we've had in the past, had total support at property, and it is, it is a policy that has worked. And we've had, had instances of why that policy didn't work, and I'm only sorry that those people who supported it before are finding it impossible to support it now. [Coleman:] Mr, I'm moving exactly what I moved at property sub- committee. To increase from three weeks to six weeks, and I believe it's important to respond to district and borough councils when we're trying to co-operate with them. Not to do what they want, because we're certainly not giving the sort of assurance that's requested in the borough council's motion, and we're certainly not giving special treatment to the borough. But we are responding by saying, well, we will give you six weeks to respond when we notify. If this committee agrees with that amendment. I take the point that you're suggesting that another group may have re- considered it's position. No I think Mr I'll decide when the [speaker002:] Can I, can I say something? I think three weeks has worked quite well, we've had no troubles with it. They've had plenty of reason to, to mar put up a marker in the three weeks and we've spent the next three or four weeks after that discussing it. And therefore why should we change it? And it has worked, so let's leave it alone, if it doesn, if it's not broken why mend it? [Coleman:] Miss. [speaker002:] Well, if it's not broken, why on earth should six weeks be such a problem? You know, I mean, if if [LAUGHTER] I don't see why giving a little more time for consultation should cause any problems of any kind. [Coleman:] Those in favour of, of my motion please show... those against... that is carried. Twenty-five two c, old rectory, minute seventeen, [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those in, I'll move the recommendation of seventeen paragraph one. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those against... that is carried. Twenty-five two d, members allowances for meetings of the South-West county farms authority, recommended to approve attendance travelling and subsistence, Mr group, and travelling and subsistence only when he takes duties on behalf of that group. Mr. [Chalk:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, we we talked about this sort of issue earlier on, in in relationship to the, to the R A D. Erm, I'm not quite sure of the strong importance of that organisation to the council, but I am sure that this erm, committee was set up by a number of south west authorities who are trying to look at the future of county farms. And I think that er, Mr was chosen because of his extensive knowledge of the subject. And I think if, and I know it was agreed at group leaders meeting, that if we could find a way that Mr could be paid these erm, allowances, it would be important to allow him to pursue the work which is being done on that committee, and I would hope that we might all agree to the recommendation, and that is when he's on the steering group, it's attendance erm, full attendance and er travelling, but on the others, travelling and subsistence. I think it's difficult to actually find that it's attendance on the sub-group. But I mean that, it is expensive to keep going to London and places like that, I think he should be reimbursed for it. [Coleman:] I thought that's what I moved actually, that he [Chalk:] I didn't move it, I'm agreeing with what you did Chairman. [Coleman:] All right, thank you. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And against... that is carried. [paper rustling] [microphone unclear] [speaker002:] If somebody gets on that list, do they get substitution from personnel, or do they. [Coleman:] See the reference to regular members of the personnel sub-committee. It does require that, unlike other committees, the er officers need to be clear who our regular members of personnel sub actually are. [speaker002:] . Chair, can I ju give the, I'm sorry I thought you'd already passed the motion, the Labour group names are, and. [Coleman:] Yeah well, we got halfway through the vote. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those against... that is carried. [speaker002:] Mr. [Coleman:] Twenty-seven, which is on your main agenda paper, I move to appoint Mrs erm, as shown to the Trust. Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And the against... carried. Twenty-eight, the report of the county archivist move [speaker002:] Could I just say sir, this is the re report which is, is made er each year to this committee, to inform the committee of of the work, and I hope members are pleased with the er wide range and volume work which has been carried out, and note in particular the involvement of this service with the public, and the er pleasure of the public and those have made donations, the fact that over eight thousand people have visited, and the number of people who've erm received lectures and have benefitted from that. And I hope that members appreciate as I say, the range and scale of work, which is that, you will also have seen that they've been able to open now one evening a week, and for a very small service with a budget of about three hundred and fifty thousand pounds, erm they are doing sterling work. I hope members will add their endorsements to what is in the conclusion there, erm, for the work of the staff who've achieved this. Members will see at paragraph eight, how the dep er office compares with the national average, we are well, well below that, and I think this is a very good service indeed er, county council, which is not just value for money, that that's too glib, but actually provides an excellent service,with within those limited constraints. [Coleman:] Mr. [Chalk:] Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm always worried when we get to item twenty-eight at this time of the year, and somebody rushes through and doesn't actually say anything about this. Well, I'm pleased to hear you have. I think too often, the county archivist and the records office are forgotten and left to do their very worthwhile work over there without very much appreciation of what they do from members. It it's a part of the county council I've always taken a considerable interest in, and I support them in all their efforts. It's an excellent report. It shows how well we are conducting the service, in what is an old bedding factory, after all, and if you've been to Winchester lately, you will have seen a six million pound record office, with with modern architecture in a prominent position in Winchester, er, which I'm sure they're conducting a service, but I'll bet you that pound for pound we're giving a far better service in Wiltshire, with our dedicated staff, who've been there a long time. And I would, over the last few years, I've I've suggested that members visit and see the work of the county record office. It was a great disappointment to me that when having set it up with an invitation couple or three years ago, about three members turned up, and I think that was very regrettable. The work is most fascinating, the the records they hold are quite er large and erm, I'm pleased to say that on their request, the Conservative group have have given the records of our group meetings since nineteen sixty to nineteen eighty-six to to the, erm, record office, and before anyone rushes over, there is a, a, a slight before they're released to the public. But that will be after the demise of the Wiltshire County Council. I wouldn't want to embarrass those that are here now, with anything that's in there. But er, also i I'm currently compl er getting together the records of my old company that go back to eighteen seventy-nine, and I've been instrumental in getting one or two of the governing bodies to get their records in. They do an excellent job, members should take a little more interest and go and see what they do. [Coleman:] Yes, I'm not certain whether Liberal group records go back beyond nineteen eighty-one, but erm, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Coleman:] I I und unders I I'm not certain that they were particularly group organised, but er, certainly I shall be looking forward to deposit a [LAUGHTER] large number of files there from our group. Just to get them out of the house []. Mrs. [speaker006:] Thank you very much. Erm, I would like to propose, I'm not sure correct form, that we minute this council's support and appreciation for the work of the county archivist, rather than just note the report. Well only just to really, actually all Mr Mr has er said, and just one other bit of information, the time when the Chairman of the council extended the invitation to sixth formers, looking for alternative entertainment for the sixth formers of school, after they sat through a full council, I took them over to the er archivists er department, and we saw the paper restor, sorry, shouldn't say paper restorer, manuscript restorer at work, and these sixth formers, already knew of the existence, one of them asked to see the records of parish, because he knew they were there, and I mean, I think this is wonderful, that the sixth formers already, er children are being taught about the ar the records, and they will want to be sure that we kept them, and I think it's our moral duty to keep er, the records of the past for future generations. I hope you'll support my, whatever you call it, proposal to minute our appreciation. Thank you. [Coleman:] Mr. Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I would like to second Mrs 's motion. Away from the county council I am, myself, very interested in, in industrial archaeology, local history and particularly the history of of Wiltshire parishes, particular reference to west Wiltshire. So I did really enjoy reading this report, a well written report, and for me well received, and I offer my congratulations for it. Erm, I haven't yet visited the archivist department, but they can expect me, [speaker002:] ooh. [Coleman:] [LAUGHTER] They can expect me as er as I say [] but probably, for me, one of the more interesting papers on the whole agenda today. Thank you very much for it. Mr. [Small:] Thank you Chair. Erm, I think that this erm, part of the agenda is most interesting because I think it's other departments which also report back to the policy resources, which really, we as a erm, council don't get much chance to see it's doing. I remember when my mum and dad were on this committee, actually the this records department is part of the Libraries' erm, committee's responsibility, records sub used to be there, and used to regularly meet and that used to deal with it. Erm, I've endorsed the comments that've been made I think the er congratulations, and can I say I've got a sneaking feeling originally, this paper was put on the agenda to embarrass me so that the records department can get the new shelves I originally blocked. But I have passed it now. [Coleman:] Mr [speaker009:] Thank you. Erm, the report is extremely valuable, the work of the archive service is extremely valuable. It's not only about archives and the past. We are today, creating history and those documents will go into the archives. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] It is a creative process, not a past process and something which is just stored away and lost and kept for the future. It is something creative, it's about today, it's about tomorrow, because those patterns go forward to tomorrow. It is an extremely valuable service, and one which tends to get left behind. But it is one of our most valuable, and we should do everything that we can to support it. [Coleman:] Right, Mr. [Okinson:] Thank you Chairman. Yes, like many of the others, I happen to be one of the ones who did go up there and take a look at it, erm, at the time, and I hope that the motion as er, not only to the county archivist but all the staff over there for the very hard work and diligent work of which they put in. I saw, and I have had in actual fact, recourse to actually use that service over there, and it's rather interesting if one can t to say that er in the particular village which I er represent, they actually came up, when I asked a certain question, they gave me a, a, far more than what I actually asked for at the time, but found out who the first village constable was, and I think myself that er, that service over there, it deserves every praise it gets heaped on it. Thank you sir. [Coleman:] Mrs. [Small:] Th thank you very much. I very much echo all that's been said, and I'm very pleased to hear what Mr Mr sa said. I very clearly remember being at the records panel when I er er first arrived, and seeing erm Mr reaction when it was a a member of the party to my right which re, said well, as we have financial problems and as, as we have these documents, why can't they be photocopied and we'll sell sell them off. And there was a shiver through the meeting. Erm, but the point that I really wanted to make slightly mischievous, but the point I really want to make is that I am very concerned indeed about the future of the, of this service er in the re-organisation of the councils, and I really feel this is something we need to keep very much in mind in short to ensure that this valuable record is er is maintained. [speaker002:] Hear, hear. [Coleman:] Thank you, Mr. [Small:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, I too endorse the er views expressed by other members, but I think it's also worth commenting on the work that, and contribution that's made of voluntary, by by volunteers to the work of the archivist, which is referred to in the report. I'm sure many members will have been sorry to have noted the erm, the thefts of materials and one hopes that security cameras has now in fact been er installed, and if not, why not? Erm, and I think it's also perhaps right that we should note with pleasure the comment made in the third paragraph on the second page, about the work of Mr and Mr, er, I think that does rec er, give some recognition to erm, er the role that the archivist's are playing in the wider community, and I think that is extremely er commendable and I think we should send our congratulations from this committee er, and our support for what they're doing. [Coleman:] Mr. [speaker008:] Er, thank you Mr Chairman. Erm, I fully support all the comments about the archive system, I have a membership ticket here, and I was a member of that system long before I came here. I would fully support all of the good work that is done and I would wish it to continue. Thank you. [Coleman:] Right, so the motion is to note the report and to express our appreciation and support for the work of the county archivist. Yes? [speaker002:] And his staff. [Coleman:] And his staff. Those in favour please show. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And the against. That is carried. Item twenty-nine, A D C conference on community safety. I move to take no action on this matter. [speaker002:] Aye, aye. [Coleman:] Those in favour, any against?... [paper rustling] Right, now main agenda, where we're being informed of a planning and environment committee's concern at the conversion of county council owned residential accommodation to other uses, and I did suggest a briefing, but I don't think anybody. Erm, I will move to note the concern of the planning and environment committee, and to ask the officers to ensure that when planning applications are submitted, for the conversion of county council owned residential accommodation to other uses, that, the matter be not determined until the policy and resources committee has been consulted. [speaker002:] Second. [Coleman:] In other words we get consulted so we get a chance to comment on the planning application when it's made. [speaker002:] Can I just comment I think on the process, what happens is, is that in fact the application is made by the director of property services, we don't now have a first resolution or a second resolution. I think it would be when the committee comes to the director of property services and says, we would like this to happen, that's when we'd have to come to you before the application Only, to say that I I I would be opposed because I believe you should delegate to committees to run their affairs and their resources in the way they want to. And in this sort of instance, I mean Tidworth, with the, with bringing in of North Tidworth it's important that we do have extra accommodation, the police are doing it within their, within their remit. I, I can't see why we've got to have all this sort of thing, coming back to policy. But obviously Mr is about to tell me why. [Small:] With pleasure. Too often now, in the last four years in planning committee, time and time again, we get applications from departments, and most of them coming from the police authority, for changing residential accommodation to other uses. We believe it is morally wrong to be taking away residential accommodation, when there are so many people homeless in our society, and we should do something about it. And time and time again the planning officers, and Mr said, this is not the right form to do it, we are a planning authority and it is a decision that has to be taken by the service committee. Over the last four years we have consistently moaned, we have passed resolutions at planning, asking committees to consider, and nothing has been done. And that is why we are now taking this direct route of saying, that policy and resources, as the policy making body of this council, should have some input to make sure that we in the planning committee are not the situation on a planning application when instead we deal with the moral issue of turning away people who need homes. [speaker002:] Yeah actually, I'd be interested if someone sitting on the planning committee, or perhaps a director erm, yeah or perhaps you could tell me, er, why why if the planning committee members are so concerned about this, did they grant the planning permission? [Coleman:] Right, erm, Mr can answer that one. [Chalk:] Well when, when you are looking at a planning application, Mr Chairman, you can only look at planning matters. Er, the matter which I am sure all of us in this committee are concerned with, is the principle involved, and the principle behind the letting. That is something the planning committee can't look at. Er, and I think that the way, that the way that er erm, er Councillor has mo,th th the proposal that Councillor er, has moved is a sensible way around. You will note er, that the erm, planning and environment committee were concerned at the conversion of county owned residential accommodation, and we decided to inform the policy and resources committee of our concern. This is the right way around, and erm, Councillor 's motion addresses that particular question. [Coleman:] Mr. [speaker009:] Yes Chairman. I I w would like to point out, whether or not we are going to continue to delegate degrees of authority to our service committees, or whether we're going to over-rule that and say, oh no, only P and R ultimately full council will be able to take any decisions. Now recently a colleague of mine er, that comes from an area where I grew up, and heaven forbid, that I heard the news that Esher has become Liberal, but [speaker002:] Oh, Labour [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] but the particular council which is Elmbridge District Council, started off after last year's victory by the Liberal Democrats, by moving to one full council meeting a week, lasting about six hours once a week. The chairman then went to the extent of scrapping every committee, and having three full council meetings a week, on the grounds that every member should consider every issue. Now is this a suggestion the thin end of the wedge, that we now start taking away the authority of our service committees to decide what they want to do, and have to pass it back up the line for decisions to be made, because quite frankly, I don't want to come down here five days a week, ten hours a day for full council meetings. [Coleman:] Well, I I was hoping we could, we could avoid discussing the activities of too many District and London Borough Councils for that matter, such as Westminster today, erm, but erm, there are certainly some very fine London Borough Councils. I, I don't think we're taking away the Planning and Environment Committee's delegated powers, we're merely trying to ensure the policy and resources committee is consulted on proposals for conversion of residential accommodation, for the, oh I will say the moral reasons that Mr outlined, I wouldn't really disagree with what he said. Mrs Miss. [speaker002:] Yes, I mean it, erm, Mr is quite right, and I'm very surprised at the length of time, I'm not sure if he's still in on planning, but he's certainly been on and off it a lot, erm, hasn't worked it out yet. Erm, this is part of the legacy of the unspeakable, who changed the presumption to be in favour of development. Erm, and therefore, that Planning Committee erm, basically has to vote in favour of development, unless there are over-riding planning reasons why they should not. And unfortunately concern about homeless is not a planning issue. It is not considered relevant, however important it is in normal human terms, in planning terms it is non-existent. Therefore, the only committee which can over-ride it, is this one. But it's not taking away the erm, power of the planning committee on any other matter whatsoever. I don't see any problem with this as a former chairman of planning, and I don't think any other one would. [Coleman:] Right, those in favour of motion please show... and the against... that is carried. Item thirty-one, er [very quiet, papers being rustled near microphone] Mr [Small:] [cough] Excuse me Chair. Thank you. [cough] Try that again. [LAUGHTER] Thank you chair, can I just say er, I think that the motion outlines in it's first two erm paragraphs the actual benefits of having a direct service organisation to this county. It says, that not only does it save it's money when it comes to when we're putting in the tender bids, but actually the profits it makes goes back into the County Council, it has a two- prong saving of averages to this council, and we've known and seen in the years that it's been running that money has come back into county council balances, which means that we can have more money to spend on other services. I think that, and I know that members from the D S O board, many members [cough] excuse me, er agreed that there seems a need to be a more positive approach taken to save the schools and other organisations within the county council network, when considering erm, the uses of the D S O, the advantages that that has not only on the county council, but them as an individual school, college or whatever. I know the colleges are out now. Erm, for them, because it means that the county council, when they are making a profit, D S O makes a profit has more money to spend on education, which will improve the standard of our schools in this county. And therefore the schools should remember this when looking into going for other options, which may mean there's very little difference between them and the D S O, and the fact that th that the profits made by the D S O will be lost if they haven't got that contract, and I think that's a very important point that they should take on, and I think a lot of schools miss out on that particular idea. I know one other thing that is important, is the fact that a marketing document, the need for a marketing document, which can go to non erm schools, I think erm, brought this up, the need to promote the value of the D S O overall. The last part of the resolution is it's actually taking up the area, where at the present time we haven't got a D S O. It seems stupid that you go into a school and you can clean, clean their classrooms, cut their grass and look after their, do their grounds maintenance, cook the kids' dinners, but you can't do any minor repairs, you've got to call in another organisation. Now there may be a legitimate reason why the D S O does not see there is a role to be carried out. And that is why we're asking for officers to form a report on whether or not a small building maintenance team should be set up to be able to carry out that work. I think it should go to the D S O board to be able to look into, and then come back to policy and resources. I think that is a, there is a need to look into this, it is an area where we haven't looked into at the moment, and when you consider the valuable work that our staff in the D S O organisation does, and the profit it makes for this county council, and the savings it makes for the county council, it would be sensible for us to also look into building maintenance as well. [Coleman:] Thank you. Erm, I think, oh there are several speakers, Mr 's next. [speaker006:] Chairman I shall leave it to others on this site to make the case if they wish er, against the recommendations. My concern is on the first page, the grammatical errors in the [speaker002:] Cor [speaker006:] I, er I mean it sticks out like a sore thumb, and one would have expected that this paper came from education. But if people [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] if people can't recognise possessive pronoun in that the it's is short for it is, er, somebody ought to check it because it, it lets the whole thing down. [Coleman:] Yes Mr, I made that very point. Mr. [Chalk:] Thank you Mr Chairman. [clears throat] Like you I am a member of the managing board for the D S O. Erm, and erm, like you I'm sure that erm, you would like to repeat your words, that you said then about heralding this report and it's successes and reminding the members and th of the public, and members of this county council the real benefits [clears throat] from maintaining erm, our D S O and from the erm the way in which it has been managed and the way in which the amalgamation is working there. I really do feel that erm it's a success that should be, it should be, we should make the most of it, we should public it, publicise it, erm, wherever we can. Whether it be in schools, town halls, public libraries or whatever. [clears throat] And I would support all what Mr said in that. In regards to of this motion, I don't really have a great deal of trouble with that at all. Erm it's only just asking us to have a look at an idea which has banded to us once or twice, erm, we can have a look to see if erm, we can erm, have an in-house building maintenance, to develop the amalgama the amalgamation a little bit further than what we have already, erm, it won't harm harm us to have a look, so I've got no real trouble with that at all. Thank you. [Coleman:] Thank you, Mr. [Chalk:] Thank you Chairman. Erm, my fear of this report is that we are actually erm, it shows to me a certain level of complacency. And, and I I think we're in danger of being complacent over the D S O. Now I have over many years been involved with the D S O, and er, and I I support their efforts. But, times are moving on, local government review is just round the corner, and erm, we see that grant maintained schools of course are coming along. They're not actually erm, using the D S O, and I've just been involved in the I've just been involved in the selection of caterers for erm, South Wilts Grammar School, and I've got to say, and I've told Mr this, because he criticised me, Concept Catering weren't in the le in the frame. Their presentation was appalling, their attitude wasn't much better, and the presentation from the other companies was superb, one in particular, erm, came and really gave a good presentation. That isn't only that school. Most schools that have gone grant maintained have declined to use the D S O. Now my concern is, erm that we're not actually, when we come and compare with the outside world, we're not actually giving the service that we may think we are. Er, and that's of some concern, because I don't want to see the D S O diminish in that way. In th, and this is not a school who's decided to set it face against the county council, and it's services. And Mr will know, that in fact we've employed quite a few of his services and other services of the county council. We went in with an open mind, but I have to be honest, the presentation was so abysmal, that there was no way that we could in fact continue with them, and we have the same problem with the cleaning contract. In another school, which is er, locally managed, we are I think about the only school in the county who have decided to employ our own caretaker and our own cleaners, and, and in fact the latitude that gives us, has really allowed us to do a lot more in that school, erm with the staff and the staff are happier. So, those may be exceptions, but don't lets run away with how marvellous everything in it is. We have lost contracts, the D er, the grounds maintenance section have lost two major contracts in Wiltshire to other companies. Those other companies, one of them Thamesdown, I see Mr smiling away up there, because Thamesdown won the one up there, and broke his one in the one in the south. There were troubles to start with, but you ask any of the schools in the south whether they want Direct Services back, and most of them will say, thank you we'll keep, we're very pleased with them. So let, let's just, there'll always be arguments over this, I know. Lets lets not be too euphoric about it. On the building maintenance side, it has been looked at several times in the past. I think the time has probably passed now, all the schools have got their own budgets, they've got their own builders who are giving them a good service, and I doubt whether this is the time to resurrect that, especially with local government review not far off, and the future of a county-wide D S O in some doubt, when it comes to local government review. [Coleman:] I think I ought to just come in there because, erm, I don't know to what degree it's appropriate to discuss erm, the er, some of the background details to the letting of contracts in public, but perhaps it's alright. Because I can agree to some degree with what Mr has said. I've been and watched and contributed to some degree, erm or at least in listening to the reports of governors at the school, erm, in the allocation of some of their contracts, which of course include some being let under L M S and some being let under G M S, with regard to building and cleaning, they were very disappointed with the presentation that the D S O gave, and even though the D S O was eight thousand pounds less than the competing bidder, O C S, they gave the contract to O C S, and a report has had to be made to the district auditor to give their reasons. Now it is totally true, that the start of that O C S contract was a disaster, and it is also true that several months on, the pay of the cleaners is still not being correctly done, and concerns are being raised in the governors, it's a four years contract, being an L M S contract, and under G M S they are submitting one year contracts. On the other side of the coin, the grounds maintenance service is very highly rated at and we have this interesting shared contr cu campus with Sheldon, where I think the District Council D S O is cutting Sheldon's grass, and the County Council D S O have been cutting and you'll be able to walk along the divide and see which looks better I suppose, after a bit. But I certainly think that with regard to Concept Catering, the merger did not come s, could almost, didn't come soon enough, because we needed to turn Concept Catering, from a school meals organisation into a catering organisation, and give it stronger management and a better lead and a better appreciation of what it means to be customer oriented. And now, particularly the point about making D S O's customer oriented, I have stressed again and again, both privately to Mr and Mr, and also at the D S O managing board, and I think public session. Er, so, there is undoubtedly a lot of work still to be done in making the D S O competitive, as for building maintenance work, I'm not certain we've ever considered having a building maintenance D S O. We may have looked at it in the days before D S Os, but that's er, a long time ago, and it's certainly worth having a look. Er, Mr. [speaker010:] Thank you Mr Chairman. As you've said before, you know I'm a privatisation man, er, and I think that comes down to number three, if we privatised the lot and pushed them further out, if they felt there was a need to do building maintenance they could do it. It's only while they stay so in-house as a D S O, that we have to be so careful about what we do and what we don't. And I think we have got to let them compete competitively with the private sector, we've got to push them further out. And that is why, as Mr said, I think they ought to be allowed to produce some sort of advertising pamphlet, and get their act together, because if they're going to go and compete out there they've got to be prepared for it, and we've got to allow them to give a decent presentation, at least have a decent glossy brochure to push round, so at least they can say what they do, because they will never compete when they are privatised unless they get it. [Coleman:] Mr. [Small:] Thank you Chairman. I have to admit to being somewhat encouraged by er some of the comments that have been made here. I mean, I do think we need to er recognise that tremendous efforts are being put in by the individuals employed by the D S Os, but I do think that we need to recognise also, that there is a lot lacking in the, particularly the marketing of the services. Er, I'm involved with a school at the moment that in fact has just put Concept Catering out. Erm, and the reports that I've had back from the governors was that Concept Catering was so, so absolutely certain that they were the only people who could do it, that when they were faced with competition, they hadn't got the faintest idea how to respond to it. And er, the competing package, which incidentally I have to tell you were the D S Os own staff who decided to do their own management buyout, er, of the service. They have cut the price, er of meals charged to the children, they've er made some adjustments o c, to the menus offered, which was what the parents wanted, and as a result they've actually increased the take-up of school meals by something like sixty percent. And that's the D S O's own staff buying out th the service from under under Concept Catering. So I do think that the, I don't think it actually does necessarily come down to glossy brochures, but I think it is a management attitude erm, in terms of mark developing a very much more pro-active marketing approach to going out and competing aggressively in the market place for the contracts. I'm absolutely certain that once you've got the people there, once you've got the contracts in place, the er, the people employed will deliver a high quality service. But unfortunately, they are not getting the opportunity because of er some of the management failings means that they're not actually getting the contracts to which they're entitled. [Coleman:] Mr. [speaker004:] Very briefly Chair, to say I think nothing's perfect, as I said, I mean there are areas that still need to be improved, and I think our, the image and in a sense our marketing section does need to be improved, and I think no-one would deny that. But the figures are quite clear that there are benefits of having in-house erm erm, fields that can compete against the private sector for county council work, and the fear, and the reason why they were set up in the first place, to make sure that you couldn't have outside erm, er or private organisations setting up cartels to basically screw the local government down, and charge whatever price they want and con us through and through. With local, with in-house teams it means that we are protected from that ever happening, and I hope that our in-house teams will continue to go on and on from strength to strength, valuable resource to the county council. And can I just say, a governing body that I am on, I've just recently gone on to, employs private cleaning contractors, it didn't want the D S O, and ever since that contract has come in, they have been in terrible, terrible trouble. [Coleman:] Right, those in favour of the motion circulated please show... those against... that is carried. Item thirty- two [paper rustling]... [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] And the against... I will move that that is approved for purposes of members travelling and subsistence those in favour please say aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Coleman:] Those against... that is carried. recommendation of one two three on the letter [Chalk:] Ca can I query the accuracy first of all, of that report? As I understand, it is not I think what I voted for in number three, that specifically the county secretary and solicitor should inform a member of authority. I don't think we said who should inform them. I don't think we actually said who was going to inform the member authorities. We actually said we should, we, the body corporate should, erm, I have some, I if, if it should be the county secretary, I believe it should be in consultation with the county supplies officer. That's the only point I'm taki making. [Coleman:] I understood, [Chalk:] I think it should be in consultation with the county supplies officer, because I think it is important that that he also has ownership of that letter which goes to the fellow p our fellow members at resource. [speaker002:] Yes, I mean I would like to support what Mr is saying. In fact erm, what we agreed yesterday was one on this paper, two and three followed from it, erm, but were not actually moved, at the working party, because it was me who did the moving. Erm, and er, they are necessary but they are not actually what we agreed. So I think we have to do them, but I think it is very important that we do not erm, er talk to the, or communicate with the other member authorities in a way that looks as if this is Wiltshire saying, well we want to find a way of flogging off this asset without worrying about what happens to the future of the service. Erm, it's very important that we find a joint way forward to make sure that whatever the future of local government is in this county, there is an effi effective and efficient purchasing erm, er service me who did the moving. Erm, and. [Coleman:] Mr [Small:] Thank you Chair. Can I just move a slight amendment to the erm, Well then I will move one and I will move Mr 's wording for three, and on two basically delete that the money should come from the identified savings made in the Chief Executive's department. It has the same effect Chair. [speaker002:] I have to say that when Mr was there, he didn't mention one single word about a supplementary revenue estimate, did he? He didn't mention what it would cost, and we actually said, we hope by today he would Chairman come back with how much the the consultant would be. I'm agreeably surprised to see it's three thousand, I hope we're getting the quality of advice that is necessary for such a large organisation. Erm, I think it's important that we find, wherever that three thousand comes from, it's important we find it. This is a critical issue, because local government review is coming up fast. The other members of the consortium are worried about what's going to happen, and if we do if we do leave it to later on Chairman, the, we have every danger that the consortium will not be a core activity of the new authorities, it will end up in the residual body, and be, and just be sold. And I think what we're doing here, is is getting ahead of that, and trying to look to the future of the consortium. It's important we do it. If there are savings, identified savings in the Chief Executives department, I'm sure that that from those to this should be the way forward, but er, I'm happy to second what Mr said, erm, with th and that is in three with the addition of in consultation with the county supplies officer. [Coleman:] Right, that's the motion passed by Mr seconded by Mr. [speaker002:] Thank you Chair, as the chair of that meeting yesterday, I was wondering if I was at the same committee as this m these minutes came from, because when I read the minutes two and three, I certainly didn't remember us passing those. So first of all I would call in today the accuracy of the minutes, because as far as the revenue, supplementary revenue estimate was concerned, no figure was mentioned. In fact Mr did then say, where do we think we're going to get the money from? My comment was, I'm certain that by tomorrow afternoon, Mr you will have found somewhere from your little niche, that you will find the money for it. And that was the comment that was made. No question was asked, of how you raise the supplementary estimate for this, and You would find the money, and that was left to that. And through request to the county solicitor, it was again Mr quite rightly said, it was said we would, and we as a corporate body, i e the county council, and the C P D. And I would go along with the the er proposition. [Coleman:] Mr. [Okinson:] Chair, I'm just going to join Mr in in objecting to the supplementary estimate. I don't think there's any need for it, and there are substantial erm underspendings in the Chief Executives department already, if he wishes to spend it out of that. I would suggest even that since there is a surplus in C P D, [clears throat] of over a million pounds, that er, they are perfectly capable of funding their own studies. But, perhaps the intention is that er, they don't fund it, that it's funded by the county council, but certainly I don't think this committee should be approving a supplementary estimate. I don't think it's necessary in any circumstance. [Coleman:] Mr [speaker002:] Were you moving a? Basically, I did s, well if you want a technically but I've said it comes out of the er, identified savings of the Chief Executive's department as already ma er made. [Coleman:] [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Okay, a course on presentation skills. How many have been on a on a training course before? I know has so several of you have already been on a training course so you'll know the sort of er way in which we work and the way things happen. erm let me just let me just ask you first of all what [sigh] is the value for you and for the company of of developing skills on presentations. What's the value? [Tony:] Respective clients [speaker001:] Indeed, indeed so that's what you might use, yep... What's the value, I mean what does it do what does it do for the company first of all? [Jeff:] Promotes it [speaker001:] Promotes it, so it's about image isn't it? It's about because the company after all is you it's a group of people and so er it's about putting over the right image so quality presentation to a client the image. What's the value to you as individuals?... [Mike:] More confidence [speaker001:] It gives you more confidence, yeah, what's it do for you within the company? [Bob:] Pushes your standing up [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] oh that's what I thought yeah yeah yes [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] well I mean you're right in a way Bob [] those people who seem to get on within a company some of them are people who seem to be able to say the right words at the right time don't they? They seem to be able to put their point of view over. They they're able to by by the way they present themselves they're able to demonstrate their value within the organisation and as Bob says hopefully then it increases your status. Yeah although the tape's on I'll still say [LAUGHTER] I'll still say I mean there are people within the company as within any company I'm sure who you when you get to know their technical ability or lack thereof you think well how have they managed to get where they have but they just seem to be able they seem to have this ability to be able to be in the right place at the right time. Well yes but also say the right words at the right time yeah? yep. So being able to present effectively and put your point of view across is very important within within the company context for the company in order to to project the right image and also to pro project your own right image. To show your value, to demonstrate your worth for the organisation.... Now as you probably know this is a level nine course it's a it's a course on which a platform is erected for other courses as Gordon said then the the introduction to management you have to make a short presentation don't you but it doesn't concentrate just on this. This concentrates on it but builds builds the platform on which other courses on advanced presentation skills and negotiation skills team presentation skills are all founded and so you're able to er continue through er the courses. [cough] Now we we just mentioned Tarmac's Tarmac's objectives let's just go through them er after the course you should be able to make clear logical and well organised case presentations, fine. er you should be able to display more confidence, I mean that's what Mike suggested it gives you more confidence to be able to do this. To make more effective preparation for speaking, to maintain a higher standard of discussion at all times and to display a more positive reaction to questions. Okay so those are the objectives that Tarmac have. Now I hope that by tomorrow afternoon you're able to say yes all those objectives have been met but it may well be and I'm sure it is that you as individuals have other objectives, you have other issues that you want to address er or put more emphasis on during these two days. So what I'd like you to do if you just turn to page one sort of a couple of pages in the first one that's numbered. You'll have the opportunity to write down your objectives. You see towards the bottom er we pose a few questions there, I'm going to ask you in a few minutes to introduce yourselves and to say what what sort of presentations you make at the moment. Now don't think in terms of presentations just as standing up in front of an audience. It may well be that you don't actually do that, it may be that you have one to one meetings with people or group meetings er which could be when you have to put across your point of view. Those could be classed as presentations. So when was the last time you made a presentation and then what I'd like you to do and there are three lines there you may only have one you may have two, three, four objectives [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] just spend a couple of minutes now and jot down what it is you would like to get out of this course by tomorrow afternoon what you would like to say you've achieved on this course.... Just just er pop those down. Right, erh what I'd like to do then is er I say could you just introduce yourself or what you're working on at the moment where you work and then the sort of presentations that you make er and then give us one of your objectives so that by the time we've got right round the room we'll er hopefully have everybody. Tony would you start us off? [Tony:] erm I work for [speaker001:] Alright [Tony:] erm which is quite management at [speaker001:] right [Tony:] erm I suppose one of the er things I'd like to er get out of this would be a bit more [speaker001:] Okay so putting all the that positive [Tony:] Yeah sort of ums and ahs [speaker001:] Oh right okay okay so I mean are are you saying that's about confidence? Is it or? [speaker006:] Well maybe, maybe, maybe thinking ahead too much [speaker001:] er right, okay okay so better preparation so that when you make the presentation it's more effective, yeah? [Tony:] Yeah I mean you're trying to think ahead, you're umming and ahing... [speaker001:] So effective preparation [Tony:] yeah [speaker001:] effective preparation so that you so that when you you stand up here you're more confident you're more [Tony:] yeah [speaker001:] Good, do you do you make present any sort of presentations? [Tony:] Well I meet clients quite a bit erm the last one I actually made was last week [speaker001:] Oh really [speaker006:] To Tarmac financial directors directors [speaker001:] How do you how do you feel it went? [speaker006:] It went pretty well actually, the feedback I got from my immediate boss fairly pleased with it was pleased with it [speaker001:] Good [Tony:] Obviously [speaker001:] Right yeah, good okay good. So effective preparation. Mike. [Mike:] I'm a senior with South West I management course I cover site planning right the way through. erm been in the game now for something like forty years. Started as an apprentice and worked my way through to management. Erm this course or mainly my presentations are written [speaker001:] Okay [Mike:] er we in fact have a tender [speaker001:] Mm [Mike:] frequent the main discussion er was in fact erm internally with our director [speaker001:] right [Mike:] information or what have you [speaker001:] right [Mike:] and also to our site teams cover successfully the job and explain to them how the teams were built up [speaker001:] right, okay [Mike:] the main thing I suppose. This was dropped on me out of the blue, I must admit this course [speaker001:] Was it, okay? Right [Mike:] erm would be more confidence in presentation [speaker001:] Okay... How to deal with [Mike:] How to project and verbally [speaker001:] How to give how to give an image of confidence [Mike:] yes [speaker001:] Okay [Mike:] Verbally not written, written [speaker001:] Yes sure, yeah [Mike:] written [speaker001:] yes yes absolutely, oh yes this this course is entirely about verbal presentation [Mike:] yep [speaker001:] great thanks. Jeff [Jeff:] erm my name is and I work for my objective of this really is to reappraise my presentation skills. I did this course erm about ten years ago [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] so this is very much a refresher course [speaker001:] okay so you're you're wanting some some feedback [Jeff:] yes [speaker001:] er right... Was that with with Jeremy? [Jeff:] yes [speaker001:] yeah fine, okay great thanks. Sarah. [Sarah:] I work my main aim on this course is to gain confidence [speaker001:] right [Sarah:] I don't do many presentations mainly because I work in a small team [speaker001:] right, right so it's about confidence Great thanks. Bob [Bob:] Senior Midland area and I've been working on a job in Coventry which is basically work er what I hope to get mainly out of this course is an increased level of personal confidence so I can overcome basic nervousness when speaking. [speaker001:] how to handle the nerves, I'll say right now and half of you may want to walk out of the room. I don't have a magic wand I do not have a magic wand that you know take three deep breaths turn round twice and your nerves will disappear yep. [LAUGHTER] So if that's what wanting [] we've got problems straightaway erm but certainly we will discuss what to do about that yes and to recognise them and to understand why, yes, fine but I don't have a magic wand. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'd I'd be a millionaire if I did wouldn't I? Rob []. [Rob:] Senior Engineer for Midlands area I'm er presently on seventeen million pound office development the job's completion erm my presentations are basically from site labour to erm professional engineers and architects [speaker001:] yep [Rob:] on a one to one basis or or to small meetings [speaker001:] Mm [Rob:] What I hope to gain on the course is to be able to speak more confidently and to get over the nerves. [speaker001:] right, great thanks. Gordon [Gordon:] Senior Engineer for Midlands region, currently been working on the developments which is design built and development gangs of which [speaker001:] yep [Gordon:] erm I have er one to one dealing with subcontractors engineers the architects and site meetings not a great preparation but there is [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gordon:] more or less every day to day [speaker001:] right [Gordon:] erm I hope to get out of this more personal confidence and more talk more clearly [speaker001:] So it's to be clear in what you're saying to be able to explain yourself clearly so it's about clarity [Gordon:] right... [speaker001:] The need to make it clear so that people understand without having to sort of keep coming back and asking again and again, yep, great, thanks. John [speaker006:] I'm I'm the senior south west I currently work schemes my main aim on the course is er to gain more confidence [speaker001:] right okay what sort of. Do you make presentations now? [John:] meetings [speaker001:] yep so it's it's about meetings? [John:] yep [speaker001:] great, thanks, Tom [speaker006:] erm, my name's from Edinburgh a couple of jobs one which is the sort of presentations I do tends to be one to one the hardest one for me as I say meetings with quite a lot of people there [speaker001:] right [speaker006:] erm, I think I want to try and improve my presentation [speaker001:] right, so it's the actual presentation skills themselves [speaker006:] that's right... [speaker001:] and what we actually do when we're standing up so that it becomes more effective yeah? Great. my name's I'm from Tarmac Construction Plant at depot I'm office manager and I'm also in charge of the stores hiring all the plant and equipment for all the sites in our area right [speaker006:] I also as many stores as possible [speaker001:] of course [speaker006:] erm I don't make presentations as such but erm I do have one to one discussions with on the sites on what plant they need and stores [speaker001:] right, yep basically I hope to be more effective in talking to as I can right, so it's about persuasion isn't it? yeah right,... Mike [speaker006:] I'm I'm a site agent for Tarmac Construction at erm I attend quite a few erm presentations really, tender interviews often going to the clients management meetings, site meetings and then like a lot of you the one to one situation. [speaker001:] sure [Bob:] apart from most of those [speaker001:] right [Bob:] erm I'd like to be able to present something in front of me which prompts me a bit better than I do at the moment I tend to get lost in what's in front of me. [speaker001:] right, right so that's that's partly to do with you your preparation isn't it but it's if I put the word script [Bob:] yeah [speaker001:] we'll I know what we mean yep... how do you prepare what what you physically have in front of you so that you're able to put the point over effectively yeah right yep great, Dave [Tony:] morning, I'm I'm a Site Agent for Tarmac Refurb based in Birmingham [speaker001:] yes [Tony:] erm, the bulk of my presentations are obviously site based, site meetings, meetings meetings. I have been involved in meetings [speaker001:] right [Tony:] for a variety of different contracts er my last presentation was a site meeting last Thursday [speaker001:] right [speaker006:] last week and er what I want to get out of course is obviously increased confidence and skill at sort of maintaining the aims of the meeting or the presentation [speaker001:] so it's getting your point across and achieving your objective [Tony:] keeping the meetings as precise because I tend to my meetings wandering and [speaker001:] Ah, okay now that's that's [Tony:] keeping to the theme of the meeting [speaker001:] yes, okay now that's about meetings as such isn't it which is a which is almost another subject but I know what you mean it's about timing in a way yes, that's what you're saying? We're not gonna get into anything about chairmanship of meetings on this course, there is a meeting's course [LAUGHTER] that does that so I don't want to promise you something that I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be able to deliver I know what you mean certainly in terms of timing of your presentation keeping t time with your presentation we'll be looking at that and help you achieve that. So can we can we keep it to that? [Tony:] yep, fine [speaker001:] okay, I ju as I say i don't want to promise you something that that I know I'm not going to be able to achieve in these two days because that's not yep... certainly if you want to talk about that you know as a separate thing outside the time then then we'll be able to help you do that, okay? [Tony:] Okay yep [speaker001:] As I say I don't want to [LAUGHTER] promise you something and and then and [] then at the end you say well hang on we didn't look at that because that's not within the agenda of of these two days. Okay, so what we're looking at over these two days and what in order for you to be able to say yes we've achieved the objectives er by tomorrow is how to use that time that we have to prepare to to the most er efficient and effective so that e the preparation you know when you've prepared it that yes when I stand up to speak I'm gonna be able to put these points over effectively and make the presentation memorable. Confidence and in a way that attaches to also nerves, how to be able to stand up and appear confident, appear that you know what you're talking about and you are you can confidently put your message across.... Some feedback now Jeff said okay he's done this course before and he's looking for feedback to to see the level of his competence at this point, but everybody er I'm sure you will agree by the end of tomorrow will have got feedback. Feedback on how effective you are and how your effectiveness has increased over the two days. Because when all said and done if at the end of two days you don't feel that you're any better at making a presentation then when you started then why have you been here for two days. So certainly in terms of feedback erm and how to deal with these nerves. What to... understand to understand what they're about. To make sure that we're able to put our point across clearly so that we speak in a clear way so that people don't have any er doubts as to what you actually mean. When we've prepared how do we then effectively present. What are the skills we need to stand up and be able to present effectively? How to put a point over persuasively. Persuasion is about changing people's minds. So how to put over a point that supports the point of view that you have when you want to change something. What to do in terms of scripts, what do we physically have here that we're going to read from or not read from as the case may be. Erm and how we can speak to time and how we can control that time and make sure that even with interruptions which is what in a way what a meeting is about a discussion, that we're able to stick to the time that we've allocated for the particular meeting or presentation that we've got. So if by the end of tomorrow we can say yes we've achieved all that have have we got a course? Yep okay. These these are a measure aren't they they're a measure of the quality of what we're going to do over the next two days and therefore I will come back to these tomorrow afternoon I will check through them and if everybody can say yes yes I'm satisfied with that then we've achieved what we set out to achieve today. Okay Now as those of you who have been on a course will know er on a training course one thing I particularly ask you and we all do is to be open minded. We're here for two days and I'm going to present to what to some of you will be some new ideas some new concepts that you've perhaps never come across before. So I ask you to be open minded they may seem a little bit off the wall to start with, but everything that we do is done for a purpose to achieve er what we're wanting to achieve and what I do want to achieve is by the end of tomorrow is to have given you a system. Now you might think presentation and a system do they go together? What I'll do is give you a system whereby even at the drop of a hat you will be able to put together a few words and speak with clarity, speak coherently and be able to put your point of view across. You know the situations where you're in a I don't know a meeting in some presentation and somebody wants you to give a vote of thanks have you ever had that, I had that Birmingham University one time. I'm a member of the Institution of Electrical Engineers and er because I'm by background an electronics engineer and I was at a meeting there where a chap was giving a talk on design express lifts you know at Northampton and the Chairman stood up and introduced doctor whoever he was sat down turned round to me in the second row and said could you give a vote of thanks at the end. So I'm hoping that this system that I give you will allow you to do that, anybody been a best man at a wedding? What do you say at a wedding. Oh dear me so I'm hoping that the system that I give you will allow you to deal with all those situations as well as make a longer presentation where you do have some preparation time. So be opened minded. I take on board these ideas for these two days. At the end of two days you say well fine but it's not for me I can't do anything about that when you walk out the room but I hope my objective is to convince you that here is something that like lots of other people in time I can it's a very very useful system... Try it out when you leave here, try it out in the meetings and the presentations that you have to make I encourage you to do that, to try it out in your day to day working and for those people who have either already been on this course or are coming on this course after you that you meet encourage them to do the same, because there's nothing like encouragement and feedback from each other to be able to use these new ideas. And of course if you've got any questions in the two days I'm not just going to er at you all the time you know it's participation is this so any questions that you have any comments you want to make please feel free to make them at any time it's not going to throw me. You have a set of notes here now I'm not gonna start at page one and work right through to page whatever it is erm they are there for you to take away for you to make notes during these two days er and for you to take away so that they're they're for revision and er there are as Bob's just discovering pages where a I'll ask you to make make specific notes er that I'll supply to you as we go along. Okay then [cough] let me just by way of er introduction er to the concepts and the content of what we're going to do over the next two days let me just put a very small fraction of a picture up here. I don't know if anybody's seen this before. Anybody want to stake a month's salary on what this is a picture of? [speaker006:] A church [speaker001:] A church, possibly yeah. I think as I as I reveal a bit more you'll get it.... [speaker006:] Tower Bridge Tower Bridge, right absolutely, yeah gives it away doesn't it? Now a daft question in a way but how do we know it's Tower Bridge? seen it before [speaker001:] You've seen it before yeah that's right you you recognise it from the shape and and er because you've either seen pictures of it before or you've been there. Anybody like to guess roughly when this was drawn, fifties, sixties, forties, seventies?... Seventies you think, sixties [Tony:] fifties to sixties [speaker001:] Possibly something like that, yeah. How do we how do we guess that? Mike I mean [Mike:] Because knowing London and knowing Tower Bridge those buildings over the far side aren't there any more [speaker001:] Right absolutely, so it's about the horizon isn't it? So we we we recognise by the horizon possibly when when this was drawn. If you went and stood in the same place now then obviously it would look different in that sense, wouldn't it so the background if you like would be different wouldn't it with high rise and maybe a different. So the horizon the background would be would be different, but what would be the same? [speaker006:] the bridge [speaker001:] The bridge itself wouldn't it? The two towers and the bridge itself would be the same, and in a way that that's what we can look at an analogy to do with er presentation skills. We've got two towers two things that are fundamental and don't change. They're the same now as they were in the fifties when making presentations and that's about the skills you need when you stand up to speak and the skills you need in the preparation phase so the two towers of presentation skills are about the preparation and the presentation itself. The design and the delivery. The background changes and in a way the background is about things like the visual aids, flipcharts and er the use of video and er even these peripherals you can put on a on a overhead projector now that plug into a computer. I don't know if anybody's ever seen those but you can actually have a computer at the side and a thing that sits on there and you can change and up on the screen it will appear what's on the screen on the computer. Things like that. So those are all if you like the background, the things that do change but the fundamentals that stay the same are the design and the delivery and although we'll look a little bit although we've er I have to say with the numbers we've got here today it will only be a little bit about things like question and visual aids and because of the time factor if you think about it if we've twelve people to make four presentations or we've eight people to make four presentations time is a little bit different and with with twelve we don't perhaps have the luxury of time that we would with eight people which is what the course was originally designed for. So but nevertheless we will look at a little bit at those peripheral things, but we're going to concentrate mainly on the design and on the delivery of a presentation so that's what we want to what we want to look at over the next two days.... But of course if we're going to do that we need somewhere to start and where we're going to start is that I'm going to ask you to each to make a presentation, a very short presentation. So what I'd like you to do if you haven't got some paper there's stacks of paper here and what I'd like you to do is grab a piece of paper and write down what I'm going to tell you. Okay... I'm going to ask each of you to speak for three minutes so you might like to jot that down. A three minute presentation Okay. Okay here we go then. Well the first question I want to ask you is how do you feel you got on in those presentations. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Got it over and done with [speaker001:] Got it over and done with yes, yes somebody somebody dried up did they nobody sort of er I wish it was true [LAUGHTER] Well okay. The the first question is this is this thing about nerves isn't it because that's the first feeling you have when you got up get up here is and as said I'm dry already and I haven't even been up there and done it yet the voice is dry and you know then you feel a bit shaky and all that sort of thing and why do we why do we feel nervous? a fool of ourselves Sorry [speaker006:] in case we make a fool of ourselves [speaker001:] Well that's right it's that fear isn't it of of [speaker006:] getting it wrong lack of confidence [speaker001:] getting it wrong, it's a lack yes that's right that's right it's it's probably a slightly unusual situation as well isn't it here you this isn't something you do every single day is to stand up. Quite so it's about feeling you're going to make a fool of yourself, I mean what's the feeling when you come in and you sit down first thing in the morning you look all round at the other eleven people You don't want to stand out That's right you want to blend in but what's the real feeling what's the thought in your head? They're all cleverer than you are Everybody's better than than yeah, are we I mean you know you've seen you've seen twelve presentations well you've seen eleven presentations plus you've done your own now there is that fear isn't there. Everybody's bound to be better than I am, yes. There's some sort of standard that we think we ought to have in order to do this thing right and we're we're below everybody else, yes. Isn't that true, is that [speaker006:] yes [speaker001:] the real feeling and we feel we've got to come up to some sort of a standard. Now when somebody else stood up here if somebody had totally dried up or been so nervous they couldn't do it what would you have felt. [speaker006:] Sorry for them [speaker001:] Absolutely, we all want want each other to do well don't we? And it's it's true in any presentation there's nothing more uncomfortable is there than somebody in the middle of a presentation that you're watching struggling that's right you really feel sorry for them. So standing up here there aren't eleven twelve people ready to shoot you down are there. They all want you to do well. That's right they're all with me, yeah that's right because you know that you've just been there or you're going to be there yourself. But this this nervous thing is a very primitive instinct and I'm just coming up to a word I never can pronounce so you're going to have to help me with this one. This is where I get nervous because I know I've come into a word I know I can't pronounce. In the br at the back of the brain there is the pi pituitary thank you pituitary gland biology [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] well done, I never can get that word out I stumble with it every time and that gets a signal from the brain that says this is a difficult situation this is something I'm not used to this is some I it's very primitive it's it's from the days in the jungle or whatever er a fear of fright over absolute it's fight or flight, and that's why you start breathing quicker because the blood wants more oxygen because it's ready to run or to fight because the muscles, it is it's true it's absolutely true and this shaking is the limbs are ready to spring into action one way or another and this gland injects adrenalin [speaker006:] [blowing nose] [speaker001:] or sorry it sends a signal to the adrenal glands which sit on the top of the kidneys yeah, and pumps adrenalin into the blood which again is something that makes you ready and that's what all these things about about a dry throat a wonky voice a shaking limbs is all about a very primitive instinct of fight or flight. Now trying to think of a situation where you might come up here and have no nerves whatsoever. I mean I know it's difficult When nobody else is here Sorry When nobody else is here When nobody else is here but I mean one definition of that is that you're asleep yeah. If there's no sort of arousal of any sort yep. Let's just plot a graph... When we stand up here we're wanting to perform right we're wanting to do an activity... we have some level of anxiety. Now we've just said there needs to be some level somewhere if you're right down this end of the curve here you're either asleep or dead so there's some peak performance at some level of anxiety or arousal and as the anxiety increases the performance drops off. Okay. But you have to have some level of arousal has to be something pumping round you round your blood your brain has to be working in some way to be able to perform. So we have some peak okay at which we are performing. Right down this other end of the curve the level of anxiety is so high that performance is zero, that's when you freeze. I mean there was a classic case a couple of years ago of a lady who was pushing a baby in a pram across a zebra crossing and as she was half way across out of the corner of her eye she saw a truck thundering towards her which was quite clearly wasn't going to stop and that you know a sort of fairly anxious situation, and she froze. She could not move. She absolutely could not move because her level of arousal was so high she had no performance her performance being walking in that case Well but I mean that's an example and as I say at this end where you've no arousal you're either asleep or dead, there's no sort of performance performance of any sort and we talk about having those butterflies in the stomach don't we? We talk about the butterflies and that that's to do with this this effect of the the adrenalin in the system. Now the professional presenter is the one who can get them to fly in formation. It's it's not about being able to get rid of them totally and we agree that we need some sort of level of arousal it's being able to perform despite them to use that arousal to put into an effective presentation, and that's what this two days is about is getting those butterflies for you to fly in formation. To be able to actually present effectively whilst still having those butterflies whilst still having that that slightly anxious feeling. I get it, I get it every time I come into one of these but I I hope that I've got it in got them in formation. Now the purpose of therefore of this training course and any any training course is to do this... is to be able to handle the arousal and increase your level of performance and even get the peak to move that way so for any level of arousal you're getting better performance but you're also able to handle a bit more butterflies a bit more of the nerves in order to perform effectively, and apart from a training course like this how do you achieve that? [speaker006:] Experience [speaker001:] Experience, which is based on [Sarah:] Practice [speaker001:] practice, doing it yep. So when I said to Bob this morning was it Bob, I said don't I don't have a magic wand that's gonna get rid of them but what I hope I'm gonna give you over these two days is a system whereby you can use that and can support you so you're able to effectively present despite having the nerves and be able to put over your point of view effectively, yeah? How do you feel about that yeah okay. [Mike:] Yeah [speaker001:] Everybody everybody happy well I you just sort of went like that and I wasn't quite sure whether you was sort [Mike:] it was an early morning [speaker001:] Oh sorry [LAUGHTER] so that's that's what it's what it's about so what we want to do then over these next two days is to develop the skills of design and delivery and will allow us to do that allow us to improve our performance despite the fact that we do have the nerves and by practice by doing it by putting yourself in the situation where you have to make a presentation and almost as one chap said one time sitting there actually with your sitting there remembering he said actually volunteer to make presentations to the other people there. [LAUGHTER] But it's it's about about doing that and about being able to practice and use these skills and techniques so that we can improve performance. So let's let's look at what we can do then. Well okay this morning what I'd like to do in the half hour or so that we've got before lunch is to talk about the skills we need when we actually come up here to deliver then this afternoon we'll look at that feedback from the video and what you did and then we'll move on to the skills of design, the preparation skills. So when we come up here to make a presentation let's put aside at the moment the content of what we actually say what do we what do we need to think about? What are the areas that we need to think about, the skills that we need to develop? [speaker006:] The way you look [speaker001:] The way you look, your appearance in a way is what you're saying, yeah [Sarah:] Your stance [speaker001:] Your stance, the way you stand that's right, those sorts of things [Tony:] Body language [speaker001:] Body language, yes we'll talk a little bit about body language and take that just a little bit further [speaker006:] The people who you're delivering to delivering the presentation to and whether they understand [speaker001:] Right okay, whether they understand yes so how you get the contact with them, yes. How you maintain their interest and how you get feedback from them. Okay let's let's put those sorts of ideas, you turn to page three in the notes you'll see there's a proforma there Okay, so we're going to concentrate on the left hand side for the moment.... The delivery skills thing. Okay now we talked about things like as Tony said body language er we talked about things like er contact with the audience but what fundamentally are we doing when we stand up here? [speaker006:] Talking [speaker001:] Talking right. So what's that about? Well I mean what's er what do we have to think about [speaker006:] Communication [speaker001:] Yeah, communication in general possibly about breathing about the way we use the voice yes, and of course the words we actually use Accent Accent possibly yeah. Well we'll talk about that because Joanne you and I er have accents don't we? Yeah [LAUGHTER] That are not the standard English shall we say something like that. So let's think of all first of all then about the voice. Now there's a word I'm going to use right now which is a technical term in a way and that is is er the technical term for the study of language and how we speak the word what we say and how we say it. It goes under the lovely title of paralinguistics Para yeah that's right yeah. Paralinguistics is is the study of the words we say and how we say them.... So quite obviously the how we say things is all to do with the voice isn't it?... Now I've got four letter Ps to do with the voice er and what I want to do is is think about the comparison of aspects of the voice when we have a normal one to one conversation and compare that with the same aspects when we're making a presentation standing in front of a group. First of all power. The power of the voice.... How do we need to adjust the power when we're making a presentation? [speaker006:] To the size of the audience [speaker001:] To the size absolutely, to the size of the audience so if we say a one to one we've got a certain level of conversational power if you say so with a group like this it has to be Just raised slightly doesn't it yes and obviously if you've got fifty people and you don't have a microphone or anything then it becomes even more so. You get much above about fifty people you perhaps do need a some technical assistance with the power. So the power needs to be just slightly slightly raised okay. Now another P, anybody think of other Ps to do with the voice. [speaker006:] Pitch [speaker001:] Pitch, that's that's yes.... Now pitch is to do with er technically to do with the frequency isn't it the the high or low pitch like on a piano from high notes to low notes? What do we need to ensure in terms of pitch when we're speaking to a group of people? [speaker006:] Variety [speaker001:] Sorry [speaker006:] Variety [speaker001:] Variety that's right there has to be variety because because if you talk in a monotone all the time then it all becomes rather boring doesn't it? So there's got to be variations in the pitch. Power, pitch, there's one I want to squeeze in between but I mean it doesn't matter. [speaker006:] Pace [speaker001:] pace, pace, yeah. In a way projection is sort of with power. Pace that's right you've been cheating and looking on looking on the next page [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] That's right. The pace okay. The speed at which we speak okay. yeah [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Power and pace and pitch and pause. Yes okay. let's just go back to the pace then. How does the pace want to be compared with normal con one to one conversation perhaps? [speaker006:] slightly slower [speaker001:] Slightly slower just so that the words come over a bit clearer yes, so so people can actually take in what you say okay. Now the pause, how about the pause? [speaker006:] To get attention [speaker001:] You do don't you [speaker006:] it gives emphasis it attracts people's attention [speaker001:] sorry [Sarah:] Pregnant pause [speaker001:] Pregnant pau that's right a pregnant pause isn't it? I mean [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But it's perhaps one of the most difficult things when you start out doing presentations isn't it. Because you get that silence in the room and mmm you want to fill it [LAUGHTER] so but you're right the use of the pause effective and particularly with a variation in pitch that gives that emphasis the two combined together can be very very effective. Okay so the power the pace the pitch and the pause all to do with voice and slight variations on those compared with normal one to one conversation [cough] Okay. So that's about the voice itself now under paralinguistics also comes that the concept of words.... Words are are I mean what are words? A simple thing to say but what are words? [Bob:] Expression [speaker001:] Yes er but what do they express then Sorry [Bob:] Feelings [speaker001:] could express feelings yes. [speaker006:] Facts thoughts [speaker001:] Facts feelings yes thoughts absolutely there there there a code aren't they? I mean if you speak three different languages you could use three different words to put the same sort of thought of a picture dog, chien, hound there's probably an Italian and a and that but if you speak the languages then different words different codes if you like are for the same idea. So that's what words are about. Now brr any anybody here like me from Yorkshire? No you're from slightly further north. You're from Yorkshire? [John:] Sometime ago [speaker001:] Sometime ago right so you may catch this, and you're from slightly further north than that I think? Right okay. Anybody from the Liverpool area? No no okay. If I said to John and Joanne erm that I saw a boy running up the ginnel no you understand? You do you do? Yeah I know what you said but I dunno what a ginnel is. Okay a snicket I don't know what a snicket is either No No Yes But I know what you're saying Alright yeah, okay you see the point that that it's it's words what the heck's he talking [speaker006:] No no I know exactly [speaker001:] Oh you did, yeah it's it's er no but I mean in terms of the actual word you don't know what it is [speaker006:] No [speaker001:] er it's it's about geography isn't it? er coming from different areas of the country. Right let me just explain then just just for the sake of completeness. erm in the days when they had terraced houses back to back terraced houses erm well anywhere in the country I guess but but where I come from it was fine for the people who lived with their doors on the on the road but the people who lived at the other side of the block they couldn't get from the road so every so often down the down the terrace they had a little alley way an entry I think you'd probably call it in Scotland, don't they? We talking about this and I was saying about coming from construction I says I've says I've to go up the cut like Oh the cut yeah [speaker006:] Where I call the cut, and he's going the cut what cut that's the canal I says [LAUGHTER] up the cut between [] the two the two buildings she said no that's the alley [speaker001:] That's the alley, yeah, or the ginnel or the snicket you know or in Liverpool they call it a jigger Or the cut Yeah so you see the point, if you're making a presentation and you use words like that based on where you come from the geography you know your regional variations then it's a bit it's a bit difficult for er effective communication isn't it? So we have think about making sure that we use or if we use a word and people don't understand it Explain it Explain it, absolutely... Now so that's about words based on geographical variations or regional variations within the country er er something to be avoided but what about in the industry you're in. [speaker006:] Jargon [speaker001:] Jargon. Absolutely yeah. Now [LAUGHTER] there's a word that covers that and that the the choice of words based on on getting it right for the audience particularly in terms of jargon is what is called wordsmith. Cho choosing words in if if you think of a parallel with blacksmith, a blacksmith takes base metal and sort of bends it and shapes it to the appropriate shape. Choosing the right words for the audience particularly based on jargon is what's called wordsmith.... Now somebody said they got involved in prequalification meetings, yeah. Mike who might you have as an audience in a prequalification er hang on er prequalification everybody understand prequalification? Let's make sure we didn't use any term that everybody understands yeah. [Bob:] understand what [speaker001:] Right exactly because you might you might have the client or a representative of the client as well as architects and people who would so you have to be careful don't you in terms of using the right words. So your presentation would be [speaker006:] simplified [speaker001:] Simplified that's right. Where the jargon might arise would be perhaps in response to questions from an architect for instance yes. Technical yeah the technical people but you have to ensure don't you that with with your audience that you understand who they are but if you don't then you have to keep it to a common denominator. Yeah and that's about wordsmith, choosing the right words for the for the appropriate to the audience and of course jargon the industry jargon erm is the thing you've got to watch. Okay so that's about paralinguistics about the way we use the voice in a presentation and the way we chose the words so that we have effective communication with our audience. Okay. Now was it Tony who said about body language yep? [Tony:] Yep [speaker001:] Now, body language if we move on to that. If you read books on body language then erm that says erm I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about yes, I'm not being truthful and that means that that I'm really not being really very sincere or again I'm unsure. But what could it also mean? itchy ear You've got an itchy ear or an itchy chin absolutely yeah. That it exactly that. So body language if you read a lot of the books on body language it takes one single action and it interprets it based on that. Now if we take it just one step further, there was a lady well there still is a lady called and she did some research, what she was trying to look at was the the sort of body language if you like the actions that people er use and associate that to their personality and she looked particularly at people who were open positive communicators truthful I suppose but people who were open communicators and looked at the sort of things they did and also at people who perhaps weren't quite so honest and open and truthful. And she didn't take individual actions what she took was what she called clusters. Clusters of actions so she looked at things like the use of the hands the use of the feet the use of the eyes erm and what she called the centre line. The body's centre line and she equated that and what she said was in terms of the hands that people who were open and positive communicators used on average more symmetrical open palm gestures than individual or closed palm gestures non-symmetrical. And if you look at there are certain er types of people in history who use very non-symmetrical hand gestures who perhaps you might say were not the most open communicators in the world [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] and if you take a film of of erm Hitler and er people of that ilk in the second world war and you analyse almost frame by frame you'll see that and count the number of non-symmetrical hand gestures you will find that they're quite high as a percentage. Now I'm not saying that we stand here and all we do is that because when you want to emphasise a point then sometimes a a single non-symmetrical a single hand gesture is more appropriate. But on average you will find er and you look at people in the pub you look in the bar tonight at the people having conversations and see how many symmetrical hand gestures there are. It's quite interesting. What I'm talking about here are not things that are unnatural but things that er will come naturally as you relax into your presentation. [speaker006:] Are you suggesting that [speaker001:] Absolutely, and you will find when we look on the video the number of people who held up a piece of paper if you hold things up and I'm holding this now because I'm about to write but if if you stand here and hold a piece of paper then it's very difficult to make symmetrical palm gestures, open palm gestures. So that is one thing as I develop this theme you'll you'll see. So of course the next question comes well well how do you manage to put it down, I guess?... hands we'll come on to that.... Okay? Now another thing as I said that she looked at in terms of clusters was the centre line. Now ladies and gentlemen we all know that there are certain parts of the body that it is quite natural that we like to protect [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Such as a direct free kick. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] erm and and ladies perhaps would tend to do the same sort of thing. Now what that does of course is close off the centre line and what found was that people who were positive communicators as they spoke to somebody they presented the centre line to them. Now if I'm presenting my centre line to Tony and speaking to him that feels fine yeah, but if I talk to you Dave over my shoulder like that I mean how does that feel? Talk to you and tell you something you know [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] It feels as though I don't care [speaker006:] [cough] [Tony:] lack of interest [speaker001:] lack of interest that's right. So presenting the centre line and okay we're going to come on to the eye contact as well in a moment, presenting the centre line with eye contact means that it feels much more positive for the audience in terms of the delivery. So the centre line is an is an important aspect of... Now if you're holding your notes yeah I I mean that's not a very open sort of centre line is it because I've got this as a barrier. In a way this standing behind [knocking] and it's unfortunate we have to have something as big as this table er and if I stand behind it then you know Gordon's not getting my full centre line yep. So standing behind a barrier is another thing. The third aspect the third aspect that er noticed was movement of the feet whilst in this sort of a situation. In any communication and Mike used that term and this is what this is about in communication there is a gap it doesn't matter whether it's you know writing a letter making a phone call or just standing this sort of distance away. There's a gap over which these words have to flow. Yes, there's a gap in this communication. Now if I stood here all the time for two days and presented to you just standing here do your eyes move have to move if you're watching me all the time your eyes are fixed aren't they in one position? Yeah and the problem is that that because you have to look in one position it means that that the whole thing becomes boring and and your interest starts to drift. But if I'm moving around slightly like this and you're having to follow with your eyes as I'm making my presentation it brings variety to it brings that bit of variety like you said earlier that it brings some interest to it. So just just small movements of the feet I'm not talking well there's a classic one I had when I was at college we had a lecturer imagine a big lecture theatre you know two hundred people and there was there was a board and he presented his lecture like this, plenty of foot movement but he presented his lecture like and he just walked up and down. Well I mean what do you end up doing if somebody makes a presentation like that. [speaker006:] Give up watching [speaker001:] You either give up watching or you keep a score don't you, yeah? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] How many times he's gonna walk in the next minute you know let's time. You don't listen to what he's saying because you know just it just becomes so it takes your attention away. But but small movement a little bit of movement around and some people did as we'll see when we look at the video this afternoon, but some people you know grew roots er it becomes that way. Again it's part of the nervousness yeah I'm gonna put me notes down there and I'm not gonna hold them I you know I don't want to be anywhere away from them so it's all tied up with the preparation as well. But some movement of the feet er is important to keep variety.... So that's what er worked on connection between the cluster of movements and sort of advanced body language if you like and the personality so someone who is perceived as using ja symmetrical palm gestures and open centre line and some movement in the feet is seen more as a as a positive communicator, a more open communicator, and it enhances the quality of the presentation. Now there was one other thing that was mentioned. The third aspect was contact with the audience, yeah. Audience contact. Why is it important to have audience contact in your presentation? [speaker006:] Just to make sure that they think that you're talking to them [speaker001:] Absolutely, so they feel involved don't they? They feel involved as part of the presentation. That helps the audience feel involved but what does it do for you as a presenter? What can it do? [speaker006:] helps you get your point across [speaker001:] Yes indeed it also gives you some [speaker006:] Gauge the reaction [speaker001:] yeah gauge the reaction some feedback. Gauge people's reaction you know as I said to you earlier are you with that Mike because of all I had contact and I thought I saw you [Bob:] [LAUGHTER] I dropped off [speaker001:] And you dropped off, well that that is the other important thing isn't it because part of the feedback is you know am I interesting everybody you know? Are they with me on this or am I boring the pants off them yeah? And you may then want to adjust the presentation. So audience contact.... What's the what's the primary method of of getting contact with the audience? Well the method [speaker006:] Eyes looking at them [speaker001:] Yeah using the eyes, yeah, okay.... Both to to to feel to make them feel involved and to er gauge the reaction gauge how things are going so you can er get some feedback on how you're doing. Okay [Mike:] You need to keep their interest don't you? [speaker001:] Oh absolutely, yes, I mean I mean [Mike:] the effect [speaker001:] Sure erm no amount of audience contact will compensate for a boring subject. Yeah, oh yes I erm erm I'm not saying that and that's when we come on to the the design and the content that we put in. Yeah, you're absolutely right [LAUGHTER] very important point yeah no amount of eye contact is going to compensate for something that that doesn't hold their interest. Okay. What else then what other methods do we have besides having eye contact what else might we do to involve the audience to make them feel involved? [speaker006:] Questions [speaker001:] Yes, absolutely so questions er a very definite way of involving the audience and again it gives a measure of feedback doesn't it because if you get the right answer you know that they are with you and you know they are understanding what you have to say. But obviously if there's some hesitation over it then perhaps you just need to step back a stage in what you're saying and er er go over it again to for clarity, and Tony what's another way of involving the audience? [Tony:] Well you've got to get them to participate but I suppose you would do if you question them [speaker001:] Well yes I guess you would. Jeff what's another way that you might make the audience feel that they're involved? Mike Well yes okay that's a possibility and that's something that we'll come on to tomorrow. But in terms of audience contact, Sarah [speaker006:] Jokes [speaker001:] Well yeah yeah a bit of humour a bit of humour [Sarah:] Smile at them [speaker001:] Smile at them well yeah okay. Bob, another way of involving the audience making them feel part of it [Bob:] Ask them to relate their experiences [speaker001:] Yes okay but that in a way comes under questions doesn't it yes. Ask them yes Look directly at them Well yeah that's eye contact [LAUGHTER] Well well done thank you [speaker006:] I got it with the fourth one [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah that's right that's right you were just waiting for me to say Tom weren't you yes yes that's fine. And some of you some of you did that this morning although you may not have realised it er but you said well well like Rob said and er just just making people feel part of it by by using their names and that's exactly the purpose of having these plaques in front and why I asked you to to use erm to put your name on them is so that we can do that. So that we can use people's names as part of the presentation and yeah yeah you know he actually noticed what I said and that sort of thing. So they feel really part of er part of it. [LAUGHTER] Sometimes I've er [] Okay so it seems like it seems like a terrific amount to think about while you're standing here doesn't it as well as thinking about what you're actually the content of what you're actually going to say. But a lot of these things come quite naturally er I hope we'll see on when we look at the video that really I don't think anybody had a major problem with the voice er and the words as well when you're talking about two million pounds so in terms of the voice I don't believe anybody has any major problems. There may be one or two when we might just say well perhaps just a little bit more volume but it's not perhaps just er slacken off on the pace a little bit. So I don't think in terms of paralinguistics anybody here has a major problem. But when we come to look at the cluster and the and the audience contact then then you know we may see something a little bit different, Okay but er those are the important aspects things like things like whoops the use of the hands you know several people put their hands in their pockets or put them behind their back or something like that. Now that is you know what do you do with these things I mean they're a nuisance when it comes to making a presentation. The secret I find and you may over the next day or day and a half to a couple of days you may well see me just do that occasionally I'll just throw my hands back down to me side. If they get in if they start getting in the way the best thing to do is just let them relax to the side and try and forget about them, I know it's difficult to forget about them but just to the conscious effort with the hands is just to put them at the side. Then as you start to make the point you'll find your hands will come up naturally and bend from the elbows it sounds crazy to say but if if you suddenly go coo I've got everything in me pocket but [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Just do that that, that's what I find is the best thing to do and then carry on with what you have to say and then the gestures become quite natural because all of this this is is not I'm not trying to six pairs of opposites and then expanded by Okay now that that's fine but how do you move on and where do you move on to in order to get that structured thought pattern? If you're going to come and stand and present something to somebody there's got to be a reason for it? Yes, there must be be a reason and as I'm sure, I mean like like the objective, and then what you can do at this stage in the design process is once you've got the objective then you select those themes or ideas from your what you've done just now to support that objective, so that when you come up my objective is to convince you or my objective is to inform you then the information that you're going to give out supports that objective. So one thing that was mentioned this morning was somebody wanted to be able to be more persuasive in order to put a point of view across. If you can clearly state what your objective is what you're trying to persuade the audience to then everything you say supports that and you stand a better chance of being persuasive. Yes? It seems fairly obvious, so what do we do? Well we've got to select a number of themes to support a given objective. How many themes do we select? So what you've got there is a mass of you've got six twelve words on the first circle and then you've got twenty four words on the outer circle are you gonna dump all that information on to the audience to try and persuade them of your objective? There's only so much that anybody's brain can handle at any one time so let's just do a little experiment because there was a chap called George Miller an American psychologist who worked on this idea of what is the capacity of the brain, how many bits of information can the brain hold on to at any given time. If you turn to page eight [paper rustling] what's that John? [John:] I'm useless at this, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] I know what's coming. [speaker001:] You you know what's coming. George Miller called this the span of conception. The capacity of the brain to conceive or hold on to any information. You'll see there we've got three boxed a six number a ten number and a twelve number. What I'm gonna do is just speak out a six digit number. What I want you to do is try and hold on to it in your brain then when I've finished write it down in the appropriate box and see if you can hold on to it long enough to do that. So the first number, listen to this the first number and try and hold on to it. Three eight one five six two. Just write that down..... Okay? Let's try and ten digit number then. Listen to ten digits try to hold on to them and then write them down. Seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six.... [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I've gone wrong Okay, try a twelve digit, just for the experiment. Try and hold on to twelve numbers, here we go. Listen to these. Nine, O, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven..... Now that's it's interesting what Joanne said that you you lost it in the middle somewhere, yeah? I mean er let's just read them just see how you got on. Three, eight, one, five, six, two. Okay, Seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I've got the mixed up Yeah and nine, O, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven say that one again nine, O, five, [LAUGHTER] one, six, two, four, seven, three [], eight, two, seven. Nearly got it. So but I mean where was it. Was it generally in the middle or at one end or [speaker006:] The first, the first two numbers [speaker001:] yeah okay After the first five numbers That's it because what you well you either hold on to the first five or six and then you lose the rest or sometimes you remember the beginning and the end and you lose the bit in the middle, ah. It's like that game that they used to play on Crackerjack for those of you old enough to remember Crackerjack [speaker006:] Crackerjack Crackerjack [speaker001:] pencils, yeah, erm that's. a cabbage. There was a game wasn't there that they played [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Cabbage So long as you got the question wrong you got a cabbage if you got it right you got a prize Right that's right and that's what the brain's like, you've got to try and hold on to Cabbages all these cabbages yeah. You've got to try and hold on to so much information that something eventually has to drop. Because some people do get the ten and some people can get to twelve but guess how they do it. They chunk it up into pairs or groups of three or something like that so four groups of three or two groups of six or whatever, because what Miller actually found was the span of conception was and is... seven plus or minus two. People can hold on to seven plus or minus two bits of information and the plus or minus two he called the local factors which are you know whether it's warm out whether you feel warm or cold or whether or what time of day it is have you just had a heavy lunch whatever it might be. Something that effects even the time of the year all sorts of things. So the maximum is nine that people can hold on to and the thing about nine of course is... it splits up into three threes and that's why I say some people will group a twelve number into four threes or something like that or three fours because they're all well within this span of conception. So as it says at the bottom of page eight there's a golden rule for presenting is use three themes. Okay? So the number of themes you use to support your objective is three and then for each of those themes you divide it into three subthemes. Remember what I did there I got three themes and for each one I got three subthemes so that what you put over to them to the audience are those three themes. They're able to hold on to that for the duration of the talk and be able to understand them as concepts and therefore it helps to put over the ideas. So we'll have a coffee break and then what I want you to do when you come back is I'll give you an objective for the talk that you're going to give based on that you've just done and then I want you to select three themes and three sub-themes that will support the objective that you'll then be able to use. Okay? Right [speaker006:] Start again [speaker001:] yes. the Aldershot method it goes under the nice little saying tell them what you're going to tell them then tell them and then tell them what you've told them. Now you think about News at Ten, bong, you get the headlines yeah and you get the headlines, and so it prepares you it emotionally prepares you for what's coming. Give you headlines and then they start and they go they expand on each headline, don't they? And then at the end they give you the headlines again, they summarise it. Absolutely, and it does because it a it what Dave says it's an emotional whole and you start off and you come back to where you started. It's a whole a complete, and so it it emotionally prepares with the headlines, tell them what you're gonna tell them then you tell them it and then it satisfies them by coming back to where you started. So in other words it's about an introduction... an expansion and an end... Now as I've said tomorrow I'll fill in a bit more detail on those so if you leave some some gaps there between those three sections. So an introduction [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Do you remember what I said about the the er structured thought pattern you've now got in front of you, let me go to mine which is all blank. [LAUGHTER] The introduction is good afternoon ladies and gentlemen my name is I'd like to talk to you about flying and I hope to persuade you to come along on Saturday and take part in some flying. And I'm going to talk to you about three things about the safety of flying, about the cost aspects of flying and the enjoyment that you're going to get out of it when you take part. And that's my introduction, I've told you what I'm gonna tell you. And then expand on it, and so I go into each of these and I go to the and I say a few words about each of these particular themes. I won't go all through that again. And when I've expanded and I've told you then I then come back to my ending and I say, okay so what I've done I've told you about three aspects of flying, about the safety of it,ab about the costs involved in taking part in flying and about the enjoyment you're gonna get out of flying and I hope that I've persuaded you that you will come along on Saturday to take part, and that's the ending. So it's use the red obviously the title and the red's for your introduction to say what you're going to say then say it by using your greens and then say what you've said by going back to the red and coming back to your objective. Now coming back to the objective I say it leaves you on a high note then rather than the and that's all I'm gonna say tell them what you're gonna tell them then tell them then tell them what you've told them. Okay? So that in a nutshell is is what it's about. [cough] So you've all got your structured thought pattern now, yeah? [speaker006:] yeah [speaker001:] Right, erm three minutes again so you can spot your timing now, it's under a minute on each of those red things because you've got your introduction and your ending as well, okay? So three minutes, set the clock again as you did before and er one other thing I'd like you to do is as you come up is do something that athletes do huh and that is to er give an affirmation. Now you may see athletes you know when you see the Olympics there's the the lady with er erm [speaker006:] javelin [speaker001:] javelin, thank you, there's the lady with the javelin [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] then you see or somebody you know looking at the long jump and they're muttering away to themselves. Well there're not normally saying will you get out the way before I throw this thing or I'll stab you with it. What they're actually doing is they're affirming to themselves they're verbalising the performance improvement or the performance they're going to give. Remember I asked you this morning to just just after lunch to jot down what it was that you need to improve on just as you're setting the clock just say something like by the end of this talk I'd like you to congratulate me on having moved around a bit more having not put me hands in me pockets, whatever it might be. Yeah so just an aff an affirmation of of what you intended. Okay morning everybody [speaker006:] morning [speaker001:] let's a what are we going to be doing today then as Dave's already observed because he's seen my notes it's going to be a very full day er so we need to crack on. What I'd like to do first of all is just to summarise wha what we did yesterday. Just very quickly summarise that and what I'd like you to do is take notes in the new form that we've got now with er a thought pattern so if you, morning okay [speaker006:] excuse me [speaker001:] Okay we've only barely started if you take a a fresh piece of paper then, a fresh sheet of paper and and er the orientation that you now know we need to do if we're going to do if we're going to do a thought pattern [speaker006:] this morning [speaker001:] Tom, we're jus just gonna summarise what we did yesterday by means of a a thought pattern. so if in the middle of the page you write day one... let's just summarise er what we did yesterday. Well it was twenty three hours I was going to say twenty four hours ago, but twenty three hours. We started off with er some introductions... and er the introductions, you introduced yourself... and we discussed the the objectives that the company have and also the objectives that you have for the course.... The objectives give us a way of er measuring at the end of the course whether the course has achieved for you what you wanted from we'll come back as I said to those this afternoon and and just review them to see that you got out of the course what you. Okay having done that we discussed what the content of the course was going to be and then I asked you to make a first presentation.... Pres presentation one... and it was to last three minutes... and the subject was what would I do if I won two million pounds... and we recorded that er on the C C T V for later playback. [cough] Having done that we then talked about the problem that we all have on these sorts of occasions which is the problem of nerves... and we talked about the symptoms of dry voice and the shaking limbs the the wonky voice... and the reasons why we have er these nerves... and we also talked about the causes of the the primitive instinct of fight or flight er how we get get our body ready to handle this unusual situation.... And we we discussed the the difference between anxiety and arousal and how we can turn our anxiety into arousal to ensure performance and I plotted a little graph if you remember.... Of performance against arousal levels and we agreed that the the purpose of training like this and also putting these principles into practice is to be able to handle more and more arousal er more and more nerves [LAUGHTER] and still and still be able to perform in a confident manner.... We then talked about the first of those two towers of Tower Bridge if you remember which was... about the skills that we need for er delivery. What are the skills that we need when we stand up in front of people to actually deliver what we have to say [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] and there were three aspects we looked at I wonder why it was three? I wonder why it was three? Erm three aspects, first of all there was that little word I gave you er to describe pa paralinguistics Thank you [LAUGHTER] the voice and and the words that we said paralinguistic is correct. The study of the voice what we say and how we say it [cough] I then introduced you to if you like advanced body language and based on the work that Marion North did and rather than take an individual movement of the body we took a cluster... and how many aspects where there to cluster I wonder [LAUGHTER] there were three weren't there. Hands, feet centre [] level. Okay so paralinguistics, the cluster and the other one was the need for audience contact.... the way we get feedback from the audience the way we ensure that we involve the audience as well through the use of the eyes the names er and asking questions.... And then we had the moment that a lot of you er weren't looking forward to which was playing the video back, yes.... and this gave you an opportunity to see yourself to see others... and to take part in some coaching... something that we did again yesterday and we shall be doing again today [cough] We then talked about the the design aspect first of all we talked about er the way the brain is involved in this communication and some of the aspects of the brain.... So the brain we talked about the two hemispheres the left and the right hemisphere... [cough] the fact that the left is very much involved in a a linear way... whereas the right is involved in spatial way, anybody remember the relative contribution of the two halves? yeah ten for the left and ninety for the right... and the reason we talked about this and the way that's involved in communication is that we said well if there's a lot more power or a lot more contribution to the design of what we're doing of a spatial nature and that is how the the audience's brain work more powerfully in the spatial nature let's present what we have let's design it and then deliver it as close to a spatial nature as we can okay. That was the purpose of talking about about the brain and the two the two aspects of it. And of course the left brain is very much involved in the words the right brain with the ideas, so that's the creative side. Okay then we used this er in a way that we're using it right now to er produce our design for what we were going to say through thought patterns. Now nice abbreviation for thought patterns is thop [spelling] T H O P []... when we talk about thought patterns or thops... a method of gathering ideas a meth a method of getting things down on paper so we don't lose them but not in a linear way in a spatial way a right brain activity. And what we did we created a framework first of all with six pairs of opposites... pairs of opposites [cough] and er if you remember this happened in a fairly slow and methodical way very much a left brain activity saying well okay is this a valid pair of opposites to do with that. So that was that was a very much a left brain activity. We then moved on and expanded... we expanded we brought with with a minimum of two words to do with each of those twelve words that we generated and we did this in a much faster way a much more creative way a right brain activity. When I say a right brain of course it doesn't mean that the left brain's just shut down completely but it's predominantly a a right brain activity it's the the creative part.... [cough] and then we use this method to then go a stage further to prepare for the second presentation.... [cough] So I gave you a topic sport or a hobby or an interest that you had and you produced a thought pattern for that just as we'd done in the practice one with the subject of water, but then we moved on a stage further to get what are called a structured thought pattern.... Structured thought which had as its main attributes three themes of course before you had that you had to have a clear objective which helped you to choose what those three themes were, and why why did we choose three as a based on yeah yeah, yes verbally yes if we're writing we'd actually be six but it was it was the span of conception wasn't it the capacity of the brain... The span of conception says that if you deliver your presentation in groups of three in three themes and three subthemes then the audience is able to hold on to that and the way in which we set up the delivery or the way in which we delivered the structured thought pattern was through method [speaker006:] Aldershot [speaker001:] Aldershot method yeah... [cough]... which goes under the little the little rhyme words can anybody remember that's it that's it as Dave described it it's an emotional whole it's it's er satisfying er to the listener.... it's complete in itself and er people by human nature like things to be complete or whole it is it is emotionally satisfying. So basically that was er... an introduction... an expansion and an ending. The Aldershot method.... Got through quite a bit yesterday didn't we? [cough] Quite a bit there er when you lay it out like that in a pattern a thought pattern which shows just how much er we did actually get through er from where you started at ten in the morning or just after with the presentation right through to the second presentation. There were a lot a lot involved there er and some of you actually found that that there was quite a lot that you really had to almost worry about and think about and and er yesterday for the first time of doing it with this this new method it does take quite a bit of thinking about and as we agreed practice is is what's what's important.. Incidentally everything I'm I'm doing here whoops everything I'm doing here with you all the two days here is in thought patterns. So it does get used ha ha in a practical way. It would be very strange if I stood here saying don't use a linear script use thought patterns and yet I was reading everything off a linear script wouldn't it? You sort of wouldn't really believe that er I was serious about it. Okay right what I'd like you to then select red on your pen. Now in a way what you could say what we have here is a trunk of a tree and the branches and then the leaves and the fruit at different levels on this. What I'd like you to do is put put a rectangle round three words, it doesn't matter where they are on on the whole thought pattern, three words that are the highlights what were the three things that were the highlights or the most important thing for you yesterday. For instance I might go erm that one... that one and er that one. Okay just a rectangle round three three er things that were the highlights for you yesterday the most important things that er came through to you yesterday.... So... he knows what's coming [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] the eyes don't ya. Some a lot of you said yesterday that you don't always get in this formal situation having to stand up in front of people. But what if you have sort of meetings one to one or even even in three or fours. So you know when you get in a meeting sometimes you've got a point of view on an agenda item and you think how where am I gonna get support for for my point of view on the meeting? Or you know you're in a meeting and the chairman what's your opinion John on this where you what do you think about this? A good way of doing it is the Aldershot method, how to your put your point across very very clearly but also succinctly you know short and to the point. So if somebody said to me what what were the highlights for you yesterday, Aldershot method tell them what you tell them just list them. So what are the three important things for me yesterday were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact so I told them what I'm gonna tell them. Now I tell them why if you're gonna tell somebody why why your opinion is something the word because is bound to come into the sentence soon. So I've said I've listed them well the important points for me were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the [cough] need for audience content. The Aldershot method was particularly important for me because I realised that it's something we use every day or we see every day er and it emotionally prepares the audience the listener for what I'm going to say. Tell them what you're going to tell them before you tell them, and then summarise it at the end and tell them what you told them. It's emotionally satisfying it's a very important method to get a point across. The need for arousal thought well should I be absolutely calm when I'm giving a presentation but I never am so is it right and now understanding that you need a certain level of arousal to be able to perform at all is is satisfying for me because at least I understand the situation now and able to work with it rather than against it. And audience content when you're making a presentation I feel that's very important because you need to have feedback as to how well things are going. If you don't look people in the eye if you don't involve them then they're not with you and if the audience aren't with you then the presentation doesn't. So for me the three points were the Aldershot method er the importance of understanding arousal and the need for audience contact. Do you see the Aldershot method there you list then expand on each one saying why and then just summarise by listing again. Yep. So can we try that just to from a seated position not from from up the front. The best thing to do because having said that then I might say Mike what's your opinion what was important to you and and pass it on? So obviously if Mike's been chosen once or he's done it he doesn't want somebody asking him again. So just jot down at the side of the page the other eleven names in the room okay everybody's Tony, Mike, Jeff, Sarah, Bob, Rob, Gordon, John, Tom, Joanne, Mike Dave. Just jot the other people's names down and then obviously when they've been they've said their piece just strike their name through so you don't go and. Tony, Mike, Jeff, Sarah, Bob, Rob, Gordon, John, Tom, Joanne, Mike, Dave. You should have eleven names down there [LAUGHTER] Are you alright can you see where have you got to Rob [] [speaker006:] Rob yeah Gordon, Rob, Gordon... John Joanne Mike and Dave [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] okay right let's the meeting. So you've you've got your three points so remember the er the Aldershot just list what they are then expand briefly on them then list them again and then invite somebody else to to give their er their opinions. Okay? Morning everybody erm the three points that were important for me yesterday were the Aldershot method the the arousal curve and the need for audience contact. I particularly found the Aldershot method important because what it gives you is a clear structure to what you have to say when you stand up if you're going to introduce by saying what you're going to say before you expand and then at the end summarise and bring it all back to a nice conclusion. It actually gives you a framework on which to to base any any few words or any talk that you you have to give. Arousal curve well understanding the need for arousal for me helped because I now understand that having nerves while you're speaking is not unnatural it isn't something that you're able to get rid of but you need to be able to work with it and practice to improve performance. And the need for audience contact I found particularly important because if you get feedback from the audience looking them in the eye involving them then you're able to know how your talk is progressing and whether you need to modify it in any way to be able to maintain the audience's interest. So in summary the three points for me were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact. Bob what did you find yesterday? [Bob:] The cluster I found particularly er important and so like yourself the Aldershot method and structured thought patterns er the cluster was important er because as you say when people have got nerves they need to get some basic guidelines for overcoming the problem er we all tend to put our hands in our pockets and stand rooted to the spot and all the rest of it but there are ways of overcoming it, it's just a matter of practice erm the Aldershot method is er obviously a very effective method erm if you get into the habit of doing it in threes er erm you see every day you use the news at ten news at ten analogy obviously [speaker006:] [cough] [Bob:] obviously identifiable it's a very effective one and also the structured thought patterns idea er before you go into something to actually sit down and prepare something er your thoughts in a developing from there er it's a very simple thing to do but very effective. Those are the three things the Aldershot sorry the cluster the Aldershot method and structured thought patterns yesterday [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] You were looking at me I knew you were going to say that [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] Again the three things that came out for me yesterday were the structured thought patterns obviously the arousal and the need for audience contact. I found the erm structured thought patterns and the span of conception is very interesting in the fact that you do things in threes and obviously that gives a certain logic net to everything that you do and the way that you prepare your presentation. The arousal I've always thought that er that you shouldn't be nervous but you always are but obviously as you're nervous when you do a whole host of things and nerves as you become more skilled at it go away er and I'd assume that like most things that the nerves will totally disappear and was somewhat surprised to find out that you're always aroused [speaker001:] that's right [Tony:] when when you do that, and obviously the need to gauge the erm presentation against audience contact to see that they're involved and they're obviously understanding what you're saying and pick them up and grab them. So for me the three things were the structured thought patterns plus the arousal and the need for audience contact. What did you think Sarah? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Sarah:] I found the three most important things for me yesterday were the span of conception the clusters and the whole subject of nerves. The span of conception useful to gather that three is the best number and dividing it up into threes and threes again was simplest and effective way of setting it up. Clusters and nerves well again I always felt that nerves were supposed to go away when you got good at things, now I'm pleased to discover that isn't true. I also found that the clusters was useful for we all said guidelines [speaker006:] [cough] [Sarah:] what to do when you stand up there like an idiot so to sum up that the three most important things the span of conception nerves and clusters. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] erm from yesterday er I think meself personally I'm very methodical sort of person and I felt what was most important the revelations meself was thought patterns and the use of most structured structured in a presentation and also the importance I couldn't believe how that using them made such a difference actually to yourself when you're standing there and the audience participation erm thought patterns well I've always used that was just a revelation I mean I've never [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] thought it could be so easy to put me thoughts on a piece of paper could help me so much I think that's what I thought patterns structured [Tony:] Well yesterday the three things that I felt that were most useful to me was one the delivery two the coaching and the thought patterns. Erm thought patterns being actually understanding laying it out and seeing the way it works which obviously structured thought patterns but it's the basis of and grasping erm actually delivering it your delivery erm of it using the cluster but the coaching was invaluable, it was constructive criticism we all know what was wrong and it it just helped yesterday for someone not to be coaching just to help you through it erm and I think all those three things became invaluable really mean because most of those leads on to the other ones structured erm so the sort of thought patterns the coaching and the was very good [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Well, things that I learnt yesterday was erm Aldershot method the structured thought patterns and the coaching erm the Aldershot method is tremendous I liked that a lot for expansion editing summarising and first class and I will use it from now on. Erm the Aldershot method works or appears to work very well with structured thoughts the two merge together very well and erm again that's the putting down on paper I didn't believe that had actually talk at all and yet it works and as you read it things come into the brain and when you combined all that with the coaching and you can see what you're doing wrong the rest of it. Again that's excellent but it's also also to see yourself video [LAUGHTER] erm and realise that no you don't sound quite as bad as you think you might. So the three things that really got me yesterday was the Aldershot method the structured thoughts and the coaching they all went together very well and Rob let's see what he thinks [Rob:] Well the three things that er were most significant for me yesterday were the cluster the thought patterns and the Aldershot method. Erm the cluster makes you realise how you presented things to people what you can improve them having things in your hand that it it just makes you erm more nervous because you're fumbling about what makes me more nervous you're fumbling about with something trying to to do something that you don't really need to do. Erm moving around er feet movement I didn't quite master that yesterday but it it's something that er I know that will come with time and er it'll it'll all come together. The thought patterns like Joanne and others the the concept of putting a little circle down and one word in it and expanding that out and being able to stand around and talk erm for three minutes or ten minutes or whatever for a significant amount of time erm that that was also a revelation to me. And along along with that erm the Aldershot method erm an introduction and expansion and an ending all on the same subject erm makes it a nice concise er little parcel erm for you to talk through. So the end the three things for me yesterday cluster, thought patterns and the Aldershot method [Bob:] Thank you very much [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Well for me exactly the same as Bob sorry Robert, the Aldershot method plus er the thought processes. The Aldershot method because er it it sort of explained to me the most effect way of getting across whatever you want to say so that made me a feel a bit happier about that. It also made me think that perhaps I had more control over the whole presentation generally which is my biggest concern so get up there and just do some and therefore it's going to go on to the confidence side of it. The cluster erm I was always very aware of this bit so it made me you know aware that there are things you can do and watching everybody just seemed just the answer inside you. It didn't look er odd it looked okay so that would make me a bit more confident I think a bit less self conscious. But the most important thing I thought was the thought process I mean just just saying this while you were just going on I just jotted down in the same way you could come off with three ideas that around and I felt that was that was ideal. It keeps the your your presentation and it stops those pregnant er pauses you know suddenly you realise Christ I've forgotten lost the thing. So for me Aldershot method, cluster but most important was the thought patterns. Gordon [clears throat] Er yes there the three things I got out of erm yesterday's course was the thought patterns the Aldershot method and the delivery. The thought patterns allow me to erm put down what I wanted to talk about, expand on it and at the same time break it down into areas and on the other and spend some time on each area. The Aldershot method erm because it showing you how you broke that subject down allows you to erm introduce it expand on it and summarise at the end. Er the delivery part it was more the cluster but the overall delivery allowed me to prepare how I was going to be standing er how to get the audience in contact with me the eye the eye contact and also the way I spoke. So to summarise the thought patterns the Aldershot method Jeff [Jeff:] The three things that came out of yesterday for meself were the the Aldershot method the delivery. The Aldershot principally because it gave a structure to what I had to say at least went up there fairly confident of what I had. The delivery because it gave me what I had to think about when I was up there language body language and then the playbacks I could look at the two things that Mike just highlighted as one and two. The Aldershot method the structure of what I said and the way the delivery had come across. The feedback gave me a review of those questions. So out of yesterday it was how to put the structure together as the delivery of how it came across and what the audience's reaction was to it. [Mike:] Morning ladies and gentlemen [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] carry on Mike and then to John [Mike:] good morning ladies and gentlemen the three main items I got out of yesterday was the er structured thought patterns the cluster and the playback [speaker006:] [sneeze] the structured thought patterns I found that the most important because when I was up at the table on the second presentation I was able to have my thoughts relating to the layout already and with in fact just the single element of the subject shown on my paper I could immediately focus on that and in fact give the details of that right the way through. On the cluster erm not having in fact had any erm work on this type of thing before I didn't realise that holding a paper could close you down and in fact without moving my feet I wasn't getting movement I was just static and with no use of the hands you were to express yourself sufficiently. With the playback that in fact erm as has said it showed me what in fact I was doing right and wrong, erm I've been on television before once when I was running the London marathon but this time it was actually me and me alone in a work element and I could in fact see what I was doing and why I was doing it and understand in fact the corrections from the morning to in fact the afternoon presentation when I came back for the second one. So the main elements for me were the thought process the cluster and the playback. Now let's [speaker001:] John [Mike:] John [speaker006:] Erm the three things I I er got most out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns, playback and the audience contact. The structured the structured thought patterns gave me [clears throat] an actual er organisation to my talk be it only just a few words on a piece of paper it was simple yet er gave the organisation to the actual talk while you stood up in front of an audience. er the audience contact when you were actually stood up in the front and you're there on your own just getting a little bit of feedback from the audience itself er does help and then the playback which erm I think it helped a lot to see how you faired particularly on that fir first attempt what areas you had to concentrate on to rectify your problems. So in summary the three main things I got out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns the playback and the audience contact. [speaker001:] Great thank you all very much indeed. So I hope you see, that this Aldershot method which several people have mentioned is is a very effective way of structuring what you do here it can also be used very simply in in a meeting just to be able to put your point across simply but effectively. So that's another situation and as we'll talk about and I hinted at yesterday er the dreaded vote of thanks situation and the the er giving of the gold watch and er and the being a best man at a wedding or even a bride or groom at a wedding [LAUGHTER] er again is a is a way of helping this [] Aldershot method is a way of helping you to to get your thoughts together and put them across effectively. So what else are we going to do today then. Two things I want to just touch on er fairly briefly er because of the time factor but I do want to touch on before you get into continuing with your er development for your third presentation. Er the questions of how to handle questions and also the use of visual aids. Let's do them the other way round let's talk first of all about the visual aids. Why do we why do we use visual aids like the overhead projector and the flip chart why do we use the things at all? [speaker006:] About ninety per cent [speaker001:] It is it is in a way isn't it well very much so not just in a way it's very much because we have what's that saying we say a picture is paints a thousand words yeah? If we can put something pictorially it saves probably half an hour's explanation doesn't it if you don't have that so very much er the use of the right brain getting the point across visually er gets it across er much more quickly. So that's one one benefit of using a visual aid is to is to put a point over er much more quickly. What others? [Sarah:] going back to the same point again [speaker001:] You could indeed, you could indeed it it reinforces a point doesn't it, so I mean I so went back a few times with the flipchart yesterday with things that we need to re reinforce yes? Jeff you've a lot of experience of doing lecturing what what does it do for you as a presenter? [Jeff:] I've used it to erm to develop the lecture. I let the audience draw their own thought patterns [speaker001:] yep [Jeff:] That produces something that then moves on to discussions [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] I call it no notes at all [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] and they write the lecture for me [speaker001:] they write yeah [Jeff:] they write the lecture as it takes place [speaker001:] yeah yes [speaker006:] good preparation [speaker001:] Well no there's actually there's a lot of preparation in that isn't there [Jeff:] Well what I do it on is planning [speaker001:] Oh yes [Jeff:] and er control of sub contractors then you get a mixed group from Tarmac er different companies and their conception of what planning is and conception of what controlling sub contractor is [speaker001:] yeah [Jeff:] is totally different so I did the first lecture with what my idea of to find myself talking to a a contract housing guy whose biggest order was two thousand pounds [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] so I've have them produce the lecture and then we've gone on from like doing [speaker001:] yep [Jeff:] exactly the thing [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] pick out three things and we'll talk about them [speaker001:] Mm, mm [Jeff:] and that's how I use visual aids [speaker001:] so it can actually be a stimulus can't it? [Jeff:] so I then find myself doing nothing else but walking around so I go and ask [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] So it forces me [speaker001:] yes [Jeff:] out into the audience [speaker001:] Well that's what you hinted at yesterday as well didn't it? I mean if if you're here even now you've got your notes down rather than in your hand and and you stand and read but you don't use that or you don't use that then there is that tendency isn't there to? [Jeff:] So the focus of attention switches from people looking at me [speaker001:] yeah, to the visual aid yes [Jeff:] to this to actually looking at what they're producing [speaker001:] right, yes, and that's an important factor that that if you feel everybody's looking at you it is important [Jeff:] attention [speaker001:] it does it moves attention away just takes takes the little bit of the tension off you so you can do that as well. So it's it appeals to the right brain that visual aspect it can take attention it can actually make the presenter move around... when it switches attention what does that do for the audience then? [speaker006:] wakes them up [speaker001:] er absolutely, yeah it keeps the interest going doesn't it? So it's it's an interest thing as well it keeps the interest it changes the emphasis switches the attention makes a break doesn't it it just changes er er a natural break that happens and it changes attention. So there's there's lots of reasons to illustrate the point then and another thing of course it does is if it's one you use on here it helps you remember you don't have to have that written down because it's there already produced if it's a pre-prepared acetate as we call as we call it. So and it can break up a long session it can it can maintain interest. So two two methods I'm going to talk about really is is the overhead and the flipchart. You may have caught me doing this some of you may have have noticed that I try to force meself not to and it's something to remember. If I'm writing something up here and I talk to you while I'm writing up here then what does it do? [speaker006:] It loses impact [speaker001:] It loses impact doesn't it because a the power of the voice is hit against there, b it's very rude to talk while I've got me back to you as well so people yes lose interest. So while you're writing on the board have one of those pauses. Now again it's oh there's silence in the room but while you're writing what what are the audience doing if you're not speaking? [speaker006:] Watching [speaker001:] Absolutely they're reading it with you so they're with you so you're you're holding their interest even though you're not actually saying anything, yeah, and again you may you may have noticed well another thing is once you've once you're written put the pen down and the easiest thing in the world to have a but if you want to make a point and you probably noticed once I once I put the red lines around the red boxes round there and I gave you the first demonstration of the Aldershot method I stood here okay. Now if I want to write something I can just turn like that and I'm not turning me back away. Okay if you're left handed then then I guess you're probably gonna feel more comfortable that way round erm but while you're using this and while you're making a point about what you've written just just stand to the side of it I usually put me hand up have done there just make the points to be made, yes. So that's that's the way to use that is not to talk to it but to have a silence while you're writing er and then to stand at the side while you making the points that are that are associated with what you've written up.... [cough] I would recommend for any talk that you give that you don't use more than two types of visual aid. I know we used the video but that was for a very specific reason but if you know have you ever been to one of those lectures where there's there's overheads going on here and then they go and they write on there and they you have some slides and then you have a video and then you know it's like being at Wimbledon. er if you stick to just just two as a maximum er ah an overhead and a flipchart or maybe a video and an overhead then it actually doesn't it really helps not to confuse the audience.... That's actually all I want to say about the flipchart unless anybody's any other comments I mean Jeff's you've obviously got a lot of experience in a do you feel there's any anything further than that I know I've covered it very briefly. [Jeff:] Well the only one that comes back to me is you've got the ability to review [speaker001:] that's right, that's right you can you can yep, good it has that creative element about it doesn't it because as you say if you get them to produce it get the audience to help produce it then again it's involvement and the whole thing is is erm more spontaneous than than pre-prepared. I mean if if I'd done that this morning and I'd written it all up before you came in and then said well what we've done is this and then we did that and then we did that but as as it was generated as we discussed then then you were with me I hope at the way it went [speaker006:] It's quite important though to do it fairly neatly [speaker001:] Oh indeed indeed and I'm not the neatest writer in the world I will say and erm [speaker006:] I wasn't [speaker001:] No I know you weren't getting at me [speaker006:] I know I [speaker001:] That's right [Jeff:] the first time I get up well you see I cheat I have it lightly pencilled in [speaker001:] Well that's [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You can do that [speaker006:] that's because that's [cough] you want to start suddenly you find yourself either [speaker001:] I have I tell you I've done that before now and then that one ends up right down in the bottom corner [speaker006:] and it's it's [speaker001:] It just it just takes the edge off it so it is a good tip actually it's just if you've time beforehand is just even as you were saying producing a thought pattern like this even just doing the first level just in pencil. I've actually seen erm er been in a workshop as a participant where a chap who was excellent at this had what he did was while while the participants were doing some sort of an exercise he was actually making these tiny notes up in the top corner for himself so that when he when he came to the next sort of section that he wanted he'd he'd got he'd got the odd notes just up there in the corner. So again that's something you can do but yes good tips thank you Jeff [speaker006:] [cough] [speaker001:] just doing it in pencil lightly in pencil beforehand [speaker006:] Rolf Harris does that [speaker001:] Yeah he does doesn't he yeah that's right [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Jeff:] I don't do it on that, I do it on a big blackboard [speaker001:] that's right, that's right yeah there is that but [Jeff:] well the way I do it is I I try and avoid the lecture lecturer [speaker001:] yes, [Jeff:] because I assume the audience knows as much about control and sub contractors as I do [speaker001:] right [Jeff:] but the idea is to to get their ideas so that you can tell somebody else how you do it on your side then you can tell somebody else [speaker001:] yeah the need, I need to change information yeah [Jeff:] it brings out some interesting ideas [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I bet it does [] [Jeff:] and I the flipchart [speaker001:] yeah [Jeff:] and that's that's the only way it's amazing we ever get any sort of [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] right let me just then talk very briefly about this fella. Now we're fortunate with with this that if I turn it on it's very quiet but if any of you had and I'm sure Jeff you've probably seen it where you get some older machines and the fan in there rattles like mad and there's nothing worse than having that thing rattling all all the day. So the first point is if you're going to show something show it, let everybody deal with it let everybody look at it then when you've finished with that turn it off because you want the centre of attention to come back to you, presumably. Even if you've got a series of slides I recommend that you turn it off between each one so that you know the audience don't see the things being put into position or moved about because that can be a bit distracting so er it does mean that you'd obviously need to know where the on off switch is and and this is a nice one because it's it's right there. Now, this this material that we use technically called acetate and the nice thing about is that you can write on with if you get acetate pens so you can freehand to produce sketches, diagrams etcetera. Obviously you can have photocopies or laser prints copied on to this material, but I have here some pens and a box of blank acetates which you will have the opportunity later to use if you so wish. Now we've got a variety of colours there. We've got two four six eight colour, okay. If you want to make a point if something's you want to make more emphasis than others then there is a hierarchy to these colours on this transmitted light. Okay this is light being transmitted through these colours and up on to the screen. So I have a list here now it isn't in the notes so you might just want to make a note of this. The hierarchy of colours [speaker006:] What's the theory behind that? [speaker001:] It's it's the brain right brain response to colour and it's the response through the eye to the colour. Some things have more they have more emphasis and they appear more important than others. You'll be interested in some of these colours I I find the order of these quite interesting. So the hierarchy of colour, I'm going to just kneel down there I hope you can all see. Right at the top of the colours I have here are is purple, I often wonder whether that is the reason why royalty is asso or purple is associated with the royalty, purple robes etcetera. I don't know interesting. Interesting question. But of the colours we've got here in this list purple is the one that has the most impact, followed by blue

[speaker001:] At to page nineteen my Lord of the transcript... passage that begins [reading] my reading of this judgment [] down to the bottom of that paragraph at letter G, so from B to G on page nineteen my Lord... [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Now my Lord, er Lord Justice er agreed with er Lord Justice that's at twenty A, Lord Justice also agreed but er added er some further er thoughts on the er on the issue er his conclusion er is summarized of page twenty two, paragraph G of the er transcript... [speaker002:] yes, yes [speaker001:] now my Lord, your Lordship would of seen from the case and now from the continental television case, both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal, that where a reference is to be made the court that is marking the reference, if, what is sort to be done is either to challenge a British statute or in the case of er, er the red hot Dutch case, of course with the statute, er something which er it involves a ministerial decision, but in either of those instances the court has got to decide in the interim whether or not the statute or measure should remain in force and there is the priority of public policy as indicated in er Lord er speech referred to both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal in continental television in er maintaining the law in force and a, a bonus has to be faced by the person seeking discipline from the law to show us a sufficiently strong case to justify the er, er, the suspension of the law in the interim. My Lord... in making my main submissions to your Lordship, erm, I submitted and this is position that there is no distinction between public and private acts, in the British Rail Board both the act and the central fund byelaw should be taken as valid in the interim... if your Lordship is minded to make a reference, unless strong evidence of invalidity is, so your Lordship if you make a reference it needs to form a view as to the strength of the [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] of the erm of the defendant's case [speaker002:] well how would that how would that fit into the present context?, erm, we're assuming here that I haven't decided the er... European points or some of them in your favour [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] or, or alternatively because I haven't, I have made this clear throughout, I come to the conclusion that the, the questions as posed erm or posed in any court which any one has yet suggested really can't, can't be answered or, or there are reasons for not answering at this stage whatever it may be [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] in other words anything except a wholly favourable answer to your clients [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] in effect, yes, well then erm just looking ahead in those circumstances erm, er... on, on the face of those issues er where do we go from there then? [speaker001:] well my Lord er you know the Society is in your Lordships hands in terms of seeking to move matters forward, the Society is erm very anxious indeed and the reason your Lordship knows that the hiatus in recovery from central funds should be overcome, our primary case er is that er we can demonstrate to your Lordship that the European law defences on the preliminary issues should be answered in the Society's favour [speaker002:] well yeah, yes, [speaker001:] but should you have, should you have doubts about that my Lord then er what we urged your Lordship to do would be in your judgment er to include a consideration of the strength of the case er your Lordship is seized of the matter now, if your Lordship er considers that there are issues of law which require clarification from the European court of justice and in competition cases all the European court candid on references is to give guidance on questions of law, your Lordship identifies questions of law which need to be i which need to be resolved and you think that it is the most appropriate course to refer a question, then we would ask that your Lordship consider in the interim the position of the, the Lloyds Act clauses there are sort to be challenged by the defences because it will be [speaker002:] yeah, yeah, well I, I see all that, then, what, what is it literally that you'd ask me to do, would you take out an application for judgement on order fourteen, would you be expecting me to give judgment or, or, what other courses do you expect, be expecting hoping would take? [speaker001:] well my Lord one, one approach would be for er your Lordship to consider the matter in respect of er order fourteen A, er in terms of er the validity in the interim of the er Lloyds Act and the central fund byelaw... and that is a matter that your Lordship could, could deal with on the basis of a, an oral application.... [speaker002:] Yes, erm [speaker001:] In short of having before your Lordship a very complicated er array of procedural options, er the, the view that has been taken by, my lead was the most appropriate er course was to come and argue the issue substantially and then in the light of what your Lordship rules thereafter to see the best way forward in terms of further procedural applications to your Lordship.... [speaker002:] Er is what you're saying, what, what you're saying apply equally erm spitting rather, if I sort information from it, I'm not quite sure what sort information I could seek from a commission, got any suggestions in that [speaker001:] well my Lord you could seek, you can certainly seek information from the commission er concerning the state of the proceedings erm that the commission is looking at in respect of the [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] er complaints that have been submitted, you can ask them er, erm for factual or legal information in accordance with er paragraphs er thir thirty seven to thirty nine of the guidelines which are in and er page eleven thirty eight to eleven thirty nine.... [speaker002:] mm... could we have the, do either of you have the experience of how long, how long this might take [speaker001:] my Lord, it's a relatively new procedure [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and erm, but the Commission, I'm, I'm sure if your Lordship asked for expedition, would seek to deal with the matter expeditiously [speaker002:] yeah [speaker003:] My Lord in saying doing it in another case which is an arbitration [speaker002:] mm [speaker003:] and the Commission, expedite this matter for the best part of twelve months already [speaker002:] yeah, mm [speaker003:] it's the delay that we are concerned about my Lord [speaker002:] well I can understand that, yes... well I, I, I, just say wasn't going to rule on this and I'm not in, not er convinced at the moment it would be appropriate to rule on it er as part of the er, in any judgment I gave, but it seemed to me quite important on reflection to, to hear the way what you were putting it [speaker001:] my Lord there are two other grounds [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] that I would also put it on in relation to your, to, to, to, to, to your Lordship and to considering the matter in interim, your Lordship has er, erm, er heard er the information that had been put forward er by the society, you have seen the er information about the position the commission has taken, your Lordship knows that the commission was informed about both the act and all the relevant byelaws in the present case, the precursored, the central fund byelaw was informally proved by the commission... Mrs... has sworn on affidavit that the society has never been given any indication that the matters in issue in the European Law Defence are contrary to competition rules... and your Lordship also has the answer by the commission to the European parliament... which is exhibited to Mrs affidavit and which I took your Lordship to earlier and of which judicial note can be taken by virtual section three, two of the European communities act, so my Lord we say that there is already a body of information which provides a basis if one has to consider what should be done in the interim of saying that in the interim the application of the act and the application for byelaws should be maintained, the third element my Lord is the intimate link between the recoveries of money for the central fund, er under the byelaw and the implementation of the United Kingdom's operations under directive seventy three, two, three, nine, we've been over this before my Lord erm, my Lord is, is aware of the intimate link er between the er recovery of monies to central fund, the maintenance solvency and the paying of policy holders. If I may my Lord there is an issue that was raised in my learned friends reply er which er was a new point er and where I do take issue with him and this concerns the issue of the relevance of the directive here... [whispering] [] the, the issue relating to er whether or not the er Lloyd's Act and the society have got any relevance in respect of the directive, his submission as I understood it, was that under article one, eight, nine the directive only addressed itself to states, to the British Government and that therefore the reliance on the directive by the society and in relation to the Lloyds Act was er a misconceived er reliance. My Lord I'd like to pass up to your Lordship a passage from er a leading text book written by Doctor Derek Q C and Alan dealing with European community law... [speaker002:] mm, mm... [speaker001:] and my Lord the... my Lord you'll see at the bottom of page sixty nine, this is the latest edition just published this summer my Lord, erm at the bottom of page sixty nine you have an extract from the European community treaty which er defines a directive and you will see my Lord says in terms that it leaves to the national authorities the choice of forms the methods, and then if my Lord could read the passage er under that on page seventy... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] my Lord the I rely on, on this passage and your Lordship has also got the full section dealing with er the nature of the directive er from er the er from the and book, I rely on this as er as indicating both the text of the, of the treaty itself and this passage from the learned authors as indicating that it is within the power of the United Kingdom... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] to choose the form and methods by which directive seventy three, two, three, nine should be given effect... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] and my Lord in relation the provisions of the Lloyd's Act and the er byelaws that are linked into solvency and the maintenance of er, er adequate fund and the payment of policy holders, in my submission constitute the implementation of that directive and those obligations er in, er relation to the society and that is perfectly compatible with community law er it is er the states er have variety of ways in which they can give effect er to community obligations. [speaker002:] but you're saying in, in, in short, are you, that erm, that in the present instance erm the obligation was put on the United Kingdom government which has sort, it may have succeeded or not as the case maybe, discharge the obligation by in effect erm subject to the subsidiary provisions which you've both make reference and leaving it to to er regulate these matters [speaker001:] that's right my Lord [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] one has er, and Parliament of course did that within [speaker002:] yes I follow, I follow that one [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] does you, you might I suppose have another point on article five might you not? [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] erm in namely that to the er, the duties put upon me [speaker001:] my Lord there's a case which I want to bring your Lordships attention to in relate in relation to article five and this is the [whispering] [] my Lord there is a further case that I want to bring to your Lordships attention [speaker002:] well, well tell me what er, it's [speaker001:] it's it's the case [speaker002:] from what, what proposition are you going to cite it? [speaker001:] erm, this is a, a case which er deals with er the issue of the suspension of a measure based upon community law, whether a national court, when a measure has been based upon community law has power to suspend it, now my Lord the er issue in was erm involved er the er decision of er the German government er to give effect to er a community regulation in the sugar sector which er required er that levies should be er obtained from sugar companies, so it was a very direct er implementation of community law erm in that sense different to the matter before your Lordship, but we rely on it by analogy and in, in this case my Lord er you will see it's in the supplementary bundle of authorities, the extra bundle because, before your Lordship, in that case your Lordship will see er between paragraphs fifteen and thirty three er the er European court indicating that where a measure that has been based upon a community er, er law is challenged before a national court that the national court er should er only er engage in the er, er suspension of such a measure, erm if there is serious doubt er this is erm my Lord er at er paragraph twenty three of the case er and we say that er if you look at the criterions they are not dissimilar from those that have been adopted by the House of Lords as a matter of English law in the case [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] we say that it is [speaker002:] it sounds very much the same, the same line, I mean it'd be very odd if any court came to a conclusion that one put on a fanciful grounds erm suspend or ignore any, any er particular part of European law [speaker001:] well that's right my Lord [speaker002:] erm [speaker001:] it's a serious matter [speaker002:] yes but er [speaker001:] and er and we say here that er in respect of directive seventy three, two, three, nine, contrary to what my learned friend has said, we say the passages in the V D S case [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] that I've already drawn your Lordships attention to say that erm the policy holders protection can be given effect to and er that er that er it does not have er the broad construction all encompassing construction that eighty five three is the only route that my learned friend has submitted [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] we also rely on the fact that the case that I've drawn to your Lordships attention yesterday, is this was the case in the supplementary bundle where your Lordship will recall that er on the issue of export credit guarantee [speaker002:] yes, answer your point Mr it does, er, er this particular point, if you take the directive as I understand [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] your suspicions, tell me if I've got it wrong, erm, it is that er... erm... are concerned through the chain of command that you've identified, let's say the United Kingdom in effect will be leaving it to to er, erm to deal with virtually all er aspects of solvency and protection of policy holders erm the subject to let us specifically prescribed by the er nineteen eighty two Insurance Act [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] erm that's one path one could look, er down, the, the other part one could look down to one not is article five erm [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] which is er, an obligation imposed on national course among others, erm... we need to read it to ourselves [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] and your... point in this context, it, as I say the context in which I've asked you to address me, I suppose you would say, erm... given the matters are arguable or whatever the test is under those issues, er, nevertheless if you allow... the case that's been put up, erm, either by way of defence or by way of set up or by way of counter claim to impede the collection of funds, erm, then er you are not... then you are erm, erm taking a measure which could could, jeopardize the of the objectives of this treaty, er whereas I image you will say, or you might say, I don't know, erm, provided this doesn't impede the collection of central funds erm, in the meantime, if er the defendants wish to pursue their counterclaim to trial then er, there's nothing to prevent them from doing so [speaker001:] my Lord our immediate concern is precisely the one you've identified, the collection of monies from central [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] fund, er and we say that er, er we hope your Lordship will be with us on the main issues, but if your not, we say there are very powerful reasons of English and community law including er the obligation on the court under article five, to ensure that the, er the, the trials some two years hence lasting some five weeks with all the expert evidence, my learned friend says will be necessary, should not in the interim have the effect of er frustrating er the operation of er apparently valid provisions in the United Kingdom statutes and the Lloyds Acts and byelaws, which er, are themselves measures that have been adopted so as to pursue the policy [speaker002:] well, yeah, yeah, sorry to have to stop you again, but I think, with great respect one could, I think this point shorter, I'm only putting it back to make sure [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] I understand it, is that erm, even given that this case is arguable, erm... alright let it be argued out, but if, if er, before it is argued out you're not entitled to collect money from a simple fund, you are frustrating the objectives of the directive [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] and that is erm, erm... the way I suggest it to you, that would be directly contrary to article five [speaker001:] yes my Lord... [speaker002:] nothing to stop the defendants if they er wish to do so pursuing, preparing their counterclaim, erm, but the one thing it cannot do, even if the English law for example set- off would otherwise permit it, er is to, would, would be to prevent the, the collection of funds, because if the English law was set off and did do that, that would be running contrary to the directive [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] and erm something which this court er presumably now doesn't have any jurisdiction to do otherwise it would be breach of article five [speaker001:] er, yes my Lord, there's the prior point that we er, we would submit as indicated in the skeleton of the eleventh of November that on its true construction, erm the central fund byelaw, article ten in particular er gives rise to a payment of a specified sum, ascertain sum, payable forthwith on demand, it's rather like the example your Lordship gave of the Barclaycard or the cheque, if my learned friend is right [speaker002:] well maybe that would be to English [speaker001:] that's right, [speaker002:] [cough] that would be to English law questions which we're certain of interest today [speaker001:] no, no my Lord [speaker002:] er on whether or not, erm... thi this erm European community defence could amount to a set-off er in the face of erm rule ten, the central of fund byelaw [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] very interesting question to address [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] as a matter of pure English law, at the moment I have no idea what the answer is [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] erm... what I was putting to you was, do you, do you say that even if it would as a matter of pure English law, it is overridden by community law erm, er, er at least er, at least for the time being [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] because er, if it wasn't, then there would be a frustration of directive seventy three, two, three, nine [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] yeah, follow that, er in so far as it's, it's a counterclaim of course, erm, but then er... er unlike a, a set off, with the set off was established as a matter of English law, that, as far as the counterclaim is concerned, the course as I understand the rules is a very large measure of discretion, as to whether or not it er, it stays the claim on, or, erm, erm simply say no they'd be a judgment claim, immediate enforcement, and of, the counterclaim go off to trial [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] my Lord I [speaker002:] Tie the, I was just trying to tie the submission back to the, to the situation in which we are presently in [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] my Lord I think it's also helpful to add that in the case erm, er your Lordship will find at er, maybe helpful if you could very briefly look at that judgment my Lord [speaker002:] that's erm [speaker001:] this is in the supplementary er, the, the small file [speaker002:] that's your that is your blue bundle? [speaker001:] it is my blue bundle my Lord [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] er and [speaker003:] tab [speaker001:] my Lord I'm afraid I don't, I don't have a tab on my note [speaker003:] what's it for? yes [speaker001:] tab seven, four my Lord... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] and my Lord er in relation to this judgment er you've got the courts setting out the principal at page er one stroke five, forty, paragraph fourteen of the judgment... that's the principal of suspension... and it's then got it's conditions for suspension on the next page, paragraph twenty two [speaker002:] I haven't actually got the, got page, it's rather a long case [speaker001:] it is a long case my Lord... [speaker002:] where?, where? [speaker003:] five forty [speaker001:] five forty [speaker003:] paragraph [speaker001:] erm paragraph fourteen... this is the principal of suspension... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] then overleaf my Lord you've got the conditions of suspension being indicated by the Court Justice... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] and my Lord you'll of noticed that in paragraph erm er thirty er they talk about the importance of taking the community interest into account and have proper guarantees and in this instance overleaf on page five, forty four, er they talk about the financial risk to the community, this of course was in the agricultural [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] sector, a different sector, we're only relying on it by analogy they talk about the position of requiring the applicant by guarantee such as the deposit of money or other security, and my Lord our submission is, is very simple, er that, er the, the measure that are seeking to recover under are linked into solvency and the payment of policy holders, there's a community interest there in the directive, but if, er for any reason your Lordship feels there's a, a matter that needs to go on and further to, to, to a lengthy trial, that in the interim what would be compatible with the community object would be to ensure that the monies are recovered into settlement fund er so that the solvency and payment policy holders can continue [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] but as we stress this is a subsidiary argument that we point [speaker002:] yes, those are, those are the three grounds then on which you [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] let's put it accurately, erm, it would be as presently advised submitting to me in effect events which [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] possible then [speaker001:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] yes, well is there any more you want to say on that, is er, er, er, subject to Mr as you say of course, erm I just simply wanted to know erm so that I can have a, a, a look, erm at what on one view, erm might be the, the case, it might clear be the conclusion that you er incorrect in or partially incorrect or I was unable to answer all the questions er at this stage [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] yes I think then [speaker001:] my Lord I I do have some other observations on matters with Mr but it maybe more economical and effective on the new issues to wait until after Mr has addressed you and to deal with them at one point [speaker002:] I would of thought so Mr yes, yes, erm, alright well Mr Mr erm... this is a rather odd exercise in a way and as you know my first thoughts were they were better to leave it to see what, how the, how the judgment came out of it, but erm, erm, I do regard the matter as er, as a, as a whole as of very considerable importance both to both sides of this case and erm, it did seem to me on considering it, er, from recovering from the dentist that er, an, an outline of erm [speaker001:] oh yes [speaker002:] what parties might erm be minded to [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] contend and submit [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] er in certain events might be helpful [speaker001:] my Lord yes [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] oh my Lord I think there are [speaker002:] I think I'm not I think bound ny anything you have said this afternoon, it's just, if you're able to indication or you, if you want to keep your powder dry you're perfectly entitled to do so [speaker001:] my Lord I'm happy to give an indication and [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] with the caveat that, in the light of your Lordship's judgement we, we may wish to and change, erm first of all with regards to the commission, your Lord, your Lordships taken to [speaker004:] Delimitis erm Delimitis was the case of one which the commissions noticed was grounded erm, your Lordship of course has the right to seek information to the commission to seek erm information as to the status of the proceedings, whether the commission have any market reports which maybe useful and so on [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] your Lordship can't ask for information which maybe confidential to some other party for example what happened to the sugar case [speaker002:] no, no I can't I can't answer, the answer to the questions either can I [speaker001:] my Lord I don't think you can [speaker002:] sadly no [speaker001:] I, but, but er, but,b b but fortunately that's your Lordships task [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] er in a way [speaker001:] erm does it [speaker002:] so in, in a way, I mean I'm really almost be in this case be limited to simply saying can you give any idea when you're likely to, be able to produce anything other [speaker001:] and, and they may very well my Lord, say well we have been watching with great interest what your Lordship has been doing [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] if I [speaker001:] and when [speaker002:] if I was them that's what precisely I'd do too, yeah [speaker001:] my Lordship may wish to go back to the dentist [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] erm and they may say [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] and they have that right to say well it's in the national court we're going to leave it there, erm, well so, so I think we would be reluctant to see it go to the commission erm Delimitis does say in the paragraph after what, after fifty three it says well your alternatives is to send it off to Luxembourg [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and that maybe something your Lordship may wish to consider, I'm a little bit baffled as to why my learned friend has gone for cases on interim measures, we're not seeking interim relief, we haven't sorted interim injunction, erm to suspend the validity of any particular measure that was the basis of all of his case [speaker002:] well that maybe true, but I think it's working off an analogy on that, turning it the other way round and saying well erm if, if I got to the stage of erm, well possibly even seeking some information from the commission, well certainly if I gave you a conclusion for example, that it should be referred, erm and I think again even if I came to the conclusion that I should neither want, er there's no point in seeking information from the Commission, nor should I refer it, or at least refer to the stage erm what his clients would be saying should be done in the interim and what he says in effect, for the reason he's outlined is, er that we should proceed on the basis of erm the validity of the act erm and of the byelaws [speaker001:] mm, but my Lord that can I take that [speaker002:] and, and then following through the suggestion I've put to him, erm, erm on one scenario at least to, it could even you, erm perfectly erm able to pursue your counterclaim [speaker001:] mm, mm [speaker002:] but not to use it by way of fending off calls for central fund money [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] that again is the same expression as, that is Mr bottom line [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] er he wants money coming in to the central fund er if has in two years time to face a, a trial, these allegations so be it, but meanwhile he wants the money to come in to the central fund for the reason he's outlined [speaker001:] well let me take, take that stage by stage [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] first of all if there's a reference, no question of validity arises, what would happen is proceedings are stayed, subject to turns that your Lordship may direct or order and then [speaker002:] is that, is that [speaker001:] that's what happens [speaker002:] well is it is what happens is it what's bound to happen? [speaker001:] no my Lord no, my Lord that is what prima facie happens, I mean my Lordship [speaker002:] well is it the case or I mean, or, or, obviously I stayed it, erm [speaker001:] well there was nothing left which wouldn't [speaker002:] there was no point in doing anything else, no [speaker001:] no my Lord that's right, but, but, that doesn't mean to say that if your Lordship didn't stayed there would be any, if your Lordship did or didn't stayed or any part of it doesn't compute a validity of section fourteen until one's got a judgment saying, it's bad for example, I mean that's what we're arguing about until such and the [speaker002:] well that's, that's right, you're quite right Mr that's why I then, I then put Mr points in the context of where we've got to [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] because er, if he, if he didn't get a clean win on these [speaker001:] my Lord [speaker002:] points if he didn't I think that's only the time a problem arises [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] erm... that the question then arises are you, are you er able put the matter up as a, as a defence as a set off or as a counterclaim with a stay of execution on the claim [speaker001:] my Lord erm... first of all if your Lordship stayed the counterclaim your Lordship would be staying the claim under article eighty five and your Lordship would be denying the direct effect of article eighty five and of course [speaker002:] no, no, no, no no, no stay, no stay of the counterclaim [speaker001:] well my Lord, yes the stay of the counterclaim as a set off, that would then be denying article eighty five as a shield... well of course it wouldn't undermine the defences based upon article eighty five per se, the other ways, I mean the set off is simply one way in which the defence arises, it arises in three other ways as your Lordship seems to have an opinion, security or set off is simply one of the ways the defence, but it's not the only defence, so to simply state that part of the defence would not get the, would not mean that the article eighty five defence erm, er, evaporated in any way shape or form, the whole defence would have to be stayed so that there was none, no defence left, a defence on article eighty five [speaker002:] there are incidentally I think bits of, even there is a duty of care isn't there which, there's duties floating around in your defence somewhere [speaker001:] er yes and co yes my Lord there is of course a great deal more in respective [speaker002:] although I suspect there's, there's what you're gonna stand on [speaker001:] they, er, they may well my Lord [speaker002:] mm which have to be, er, er I'd heard it's round about January sometime is that right? [speaker001:] February the twenty eighth [speaker002:] is it? [speaker001:] February the twenty eighth, end of February, yeah, my Lord so of course erm staying the counterclaim as a set off wouldn't really progress much further because after eighty five, I mean that's simply a subsidiary way in which the defence arises, article eighty five arises primarily because we say underlying the arrangements are void and you're enforcing something, which is void and you can't do it, that's not a set off claim, but your Lordship I mean, my Lord that's why that doesn't really get them any further, my Lord they've always had outstanding, which they've never pursued er for order fourteen so they can always ti try as they said they will for the other erm, erm preemptive attacks upon us [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] erm strike out, interim payment, order fourteen er itself, there's always still available to them, erm that the other side of the coin is if they get their money and of course they're going to be threatening bankruptcy for some four thousand odd Names, I mean that's, that's equally devastating to individuals, erm my Lord, one would be into a type of argument on balance of convenience if we were at this stage, one would be considering the bankruptcy of the names, whether they have the funds to pay, even if judgment is given against them because vast majority don't and what would be the point of giving judgment, this order fourteen cases saying one shouldn't do it in those circumstances, what if the names are right, will they get the money back, will they get a cross undertaking damages and pre er, er and to what extent do now have the funds, to what extent will it actually effect their business in the light of of [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] the state of the premium trust funds, these are the sorts of consideration one would need to take into account, er a no doubt they would, they'd need to be argued fully at a, at a later stage, but the only question here is, if your Lordship refers and there's going to be some delay, well, erm, I was trying to think of an analogous case er and the case which went to the European court at the beginning of last year had consequences which were potentially far more profound than this case is, it was the Case concerned the application of equal pay principles to pensions [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and er if it was applied retroactively the er estimates which were put for the European court [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] was that it would er have implications in the United Kingdom amounted to some sixty billion and the attorney general came to Luxembourg to tell the court about the dire consequences, er your Lordship raised consequences in the context of an arguments under article five [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] erm, my Lord, in relation to that erm and er is an example, the European court itself and only the European court has the power to limit the direct effect of the provision, they can say well it has direct effect in these circumstances prospectively, but not retroactively and only the European court, that court alone has that power, all other courts, national courts must, my Lord this is your duty under article five I would submit to enforce article eighty five and three F [speaker002:] yeah, er, well I follow that but the argument would go, er the article [speaker001:] my Lord [speaker002:] that nobody was, nobody was in the business of not enforcing those, erm, but the only way I could erm... fulfil, the obligations arising out of the treaty and abstain from measures that jeopardize the attainments of the objectives of the treaty, er was to allow the monies to be collected by er leaving you free to pursue your counterclaim, because then if you're right, erm then you would achieve everything you are entitled to achieve, by your counterclaim, that would achieve the objectives of article eighty five, erm whereas the collection of the money would achieve the objectives of the directive [speaker001:] my Lord, [speaker002:] that was the suggestion I put to er Mr, Mr erm [speaker001:] my Lord, my Lord, two answers then adopted you're wrong they eloquently adopted them as my Lord, erm first of all article eighty five is direct my Lordship has heard all about that, to do that would be rendering excessively difficult the enforcement of the directly effective provision and your Lordship has no jurisdiction to do that [speaker002:] erm [speaker001:] because we would not be able to raise it as a shield in that one respect, now if your Lordship tried and then said well alright we stay the counterclaim is a set off, then what would your Lordship be intending to do about the remaining defences to say we're not allowed defend our claim er at all on the basis of article eighty five will that be [speaker002:] that you say remaining def what remaining defences? [speaker001:] well the, er I mean my Lord, if your Lordship [speaker002:] I mean if you've got other non and we're assuming [speaker001:] set aside [speaker002:] we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that you haven't, I mean it's gotta be, you've got other defences altogether er and indeed terms of which I haven't made my mind up yet, but with judgement and your duty of care erm may themselves solve this particular problem [speaker001:] er my Lord yes [speaker002:] I quite agree, but if they, if those exists well then there's a, erm... well, I suppose again Mr might actually then adopt even further my article five suggestion say that you're not allowed to, to run those because they'd be contrary to the directive, but er we'd have to wait and see [speaker001:] that would be to completely undermine the effect of article eighty five, we simply wouldn't be able to raise our shield at all, we would have a counterclaim but at which point since we had no of what erm, for example as one of it's principal defences, defences, erm we would say we've made the plaintiffs case very much easier, they've now got all our money, we're bankrupt, we can't pursue our claim because we've got no money to pursue it with... in article eighty five would of been completely undermined because we would not of had a realistic opportunity to raise article eighty five as a defence and your Lordship to do that would of had to not only set aside the counterclaim as a set off, but also to set aside the entire eighty five defence to stayed it or to have set it aside [speaker002:] but of course we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that er, that erm, your... that is a matter of Eng English law, the matters of which you make complaint are a defence or set off [speaker001:] my Lord we there is [speaker002:] er but if there're not [speaker001:] My Lord we've assumed as a matter of English law that I think the counterclaim can arise as a set off, but the other matters are a matter of community law [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] not English law [speaker002:] yes... [speaker001:] my Lord, er, er, in, in my submission the, the, the highest really could put their case is that if the matter were referred your Lordship simply didn't stay proceedings or permitted them for example to apply for interim payment or permitted them to take some procedural steps to pursue their action so that they weren't unduly delayed should they succeed at the end of the day... and that would be a major concession because it would run against a normal rule cos on a reference the entire proceedings are stayed, that's not a case just saying even if that is done, er that anybody is saying that particular measure is or is good is not good or may not be forced in the interim [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] because validity of the section fourteen is the question for ultimate trial, we're not seeking interim relief against that, we haven't done that [cough] my Lord that in our submission is the highest and the best that they could achieve erm properly erm which was to avoid a stay on a reference and they could then continue with the proceedings rather than be put off for a, a very, you know what maybe a year and a half, er if the court dealt with it in the normal way, or perhaps even a little bit longer, erm, but to actually go to further than that and to deny the defendant the right to put up a, a proper E E C defence, my Lord in my submission would be erm without the jurisdiction of the court.... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] My Lord erm just to sweep up one or two of the other, very briefly the points my learned friend has just raised, erm... I, I think it follows that our provisional position at the moment is that we think that reference is probably more satisfactory than simply going to the commission, what went, if your Lordship went to the commission and then found that they were unsatisfactory or didn't really take matters further, for one of the reasons it might very well not, is because the original complaint put to the commission was not framed in the same way as the defence and counterclaim are now framed, er there's been a very considerable amount of refinement, both parties would no doubt wish to put submissions into the commission as to how the answer should be put or to provide information so the commission can answer them and so on and so forth and it may not be any quicker doing it that way [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] than going to the court, erm for [speaker002:] the only attraction of that is would be if you could both be able to tell me that if I erm, wrote them a letter, or you wrote them a letter on my behalf erm and they say of yes they are going to deal with this erm next Friday or something [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] it would be quite good idea to wait till next Friday, but the, the chances of that seem to be totally remote [speaker001:] my Lord I would think that [speaker002:] now [speaker001:] probably not even that high [speaker002:] apart from anything else er, er, er your complaint has been rather overtaken by events and, and both parties would no doubt wish to... to or may well wish to take further, er, but I think you'll both agree that prospects of er let say getting any meaningful answer out of the commission by Christmas are remote. [speaker001:] Well my Lord the position as er your Lordship is aware from the letter exhibited to Mrs affidavit is the commission were informed in neutral terms [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] about this hearing [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] they've had a copy of the order, we have heard no reply from them so [speaker002:] no... [speaker003:] My Lord very briefly just sweeping up one or two points, my Lord I don't think I need to because as I say we're not challenging the law, erm I don't think that's the right context in which these, these problem arise [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] er my Lord simply directives under one art article one, eight, nine, erm I can, very simply say in relation to the Lloyds Act and to the bye laws they were adopted ten years after the directive, there can't therefore be an implementation, they, they, the the implementation is fully set out in the Insurance Companies Act nineteen eighty two and it quite clear now because the Secretary of S [speaker002:] well I'm not sure I'm not sure they can't implementation I mean, we're, we're supposed to erm implement erm, equal, pension, rights for men and women [speaker003:] mm [speaker002:] we're not actually going to finish doing that until twenty twenty which will be er... nearly forty years on really [speaker003:] look, look, may I put it this way, we're in the directive of being able to point to something which permits the Secretary of State to delegate the function, that what's it for [speaker002:] well I do think I have, I have those points, erm, I don't want to stop you Mr er, and I do repeat I'm going to, I'm going to rule on these matters and both parties have er, erm, will have certainly have full liberty to come back and, and deal with them, I just wanted to know in outline the present parties er to the future of these proceedings er, er the one thing that has come clear through er your submission Mr is that you're not er in any way enamoured of the idea that there should be some scheme whereby your clients erm pay their central fund and demands and er, er, and erm maintain their counterclaim here after [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] my Lord indeed I hope that has come across very clearly [] [speaker002:] yes well I'd be rather surprised if you acceded to the idea, erm, yeah, can Mr help us on that this position? [speaker003:] my Lord I can I'm sitting early tomorrow because a witness is being cross examined by Mr got to go off to so tomorrow he simply could not er, he si simply could not be released but er with your clerk er we've been able to speak to Mr [speaker002:] mm [speaker003:] we've been slightly more amenable but invite to your club temerity to ask your Lordship rather me, but as I'm on my feet, er ask your Lordship whether you could sit at all early on Friday as to help Mr er, I, I was little concerned to hear Mr say that he was going to wait for Mr he had responded because that would of course then extend more into Friday, it may be more sensible if Mr could have [speaker002:] well you would if, I think it's unsatisfactory er to get to ask Mr to deal with Mr [speaker003:] yes my Lord [speaker002:] and then Mr I think necessarily may be saying something the same as or, along the same lines as Mr and then Mr have er yet another go, I think it, that's in which case I'm not very satisfactory because er it means that Mr has got to reassemble his final remarks erm, twice [speaker003:] my Lord in which case I think,ev even with Mr putting in his notice will, it's bound to take an hour [speaker002:] yes [speaker003:] erm may I suggest Mr if your Lordship would care to sit at ten o'clock and then think he'll get at eleven fifteen, but really in [speaker002:] erm... [speaker004:] [whispering] under very great stress he's, already lost one judge because this [] [speaker002:] well I think erm, the short answer is that I can't erm, erm provide the parties with any time on Friday, er, the case, this case has already some what over run it's estimate, which has put pressure on the commercial judge as it is, there's gonna be even more pressure on Friday, erm, I'm afraid to say the, that the complexities of this case as such that I cannot erm begin to think that even if we started at ten we would erm, necessarily finish within the hour, I have difficulties starting at ten o'clock anyway, I think we'll simply have to erm, put the matter off, off until Monday morning I, Mr can't attend I really don't think that I can erm put it off er any longer than that [speaker003:] er my Lord he'll obviously have to make enquiries as to whether he can ask his next case to, to start [speaker002:] mm, erm... because I've got to provide some, some answer before Christmas even if it, even if the answer is that I can't provide an answer [speaker003:] yes [speaker002:] erm, er and I'm have to take some time over this, so I think erm in the circumstances the better thing to do would be to adjourn this case till Monday morning and hope that Mr can so arrange his affairs to address me at half past ten on that day, er with Mr and with erm, whatever rights he has to erm deal with matters of this, come up a fresh in reply and to finish off, I'm gonna leave it like that, a very much, and as I say as far, as far as tomorrow's concerned that's er not a difficulty with erm, either Mr informs me which is unlikely or I can, at least get a, make a start, er on the other aspects of the judgement, alright then half past ten on Monday morning [speaker005:] court rise...

[speaker001:] To another vital topic session. As you know I've er been holding a number of er small meetings with staff er and one of the questions I've been asking is whether or not there has been a need for the building presentation that we've done for a couple of years er and generally there was the view expressed that yes it was desirable but perhaps in a different format. Er and maybe later in the year when we've got all the details of the firm's financial results for the full year ie after the end of April. So wh what's requested was a a sort of interim report er and so here goes. On major business issues affecting the office, in the July or thereabouts er the Partners prepared their business plan and this is the business plan for the. It's a rolling dynamic plan it's not just an annual plan and it's updated hopefully on a fairly regular basis. We also have a a budgeting process er for the er for the firm's year and we're right in the throes of that right now for next year for ninety four, ninety five... but it won't be any surprise to you that the recession er hit the office like any other business or the businesses that you go and see, er quite significantly, er the businesses that we've been looking after, they've stopped investing, they've stopped looking at I T issues and have become very cautious and they've basically taken stock as to where their position is. So it wasn't surprising against that backdrop that we had a fair special work er that corporate activity was pretty flat, er that the price situation was highly competitive, er and of the main part of our practice that was really succeeding was insolvency and corporate care side of our practice. But now, I think, there are signs that er things are beginning to pick up, certainly we're being told things are beginning to pick up and I think probably as an office generally, we're experiencing that upturn, although er every time we get some special job in, suddenly we think we are at the end of a recession and perhaps, you know, it's the next job that really we ought to be looking to. So we were faced with this very competitive market situation and as I say prices and we are really being squeezed on the price front and it was very difficult to get any form of increase in the er in the fees that we were being charged, that we were charging. So the net earnings of the of the office, coming back to nineteen ninety, ninety one, er were fifteen million, they've dropped to fourteen point four million in ninety one, ninety two and hopefully this year, they've steadied at that and maybe will increase a small amount to fourteen point six million. Now against this backdrop we, as a national firm, er have set out our stall to be the leading business that's our our mission stake. So how we're going to actually interpret that and er act on that here in Manchester and we set out our against er er to achieve that on the simple basis of quality and you've heard enough about quality over the last two years to not be too surprised that that's what we've said was going to give us the cutting edge and perhaps put us in the leading position here in Manchester. So we said wanted to be absolutely certain of the quality of the service that we delivered was absolutely second to none. The quality of our clients perhaps could be improved, we don't have very many large plc clients here in Manchester, the competition, er P W's and K P N G have a better or bigger let me say that, bigger er P L C client base than than we do. The quality of our people have to be second to none and so our only asset would again be sensible to ensure that the best people, that we recruited the best people and we retained the best people [cough] and we wanted to be profitable, wanted to be lean and mean, hungry and er any profitable organisation is going to be a better organisation as a result of improved profitability and we then finally wanted to improve the quality of our image out there in the market place, we were seen and at least that was I think the Department, certainly my perception we were seen er as being a sort of gentle giant out there. There was nothing really special about that distinguishes us, distinguished us from the pack. So those are our er quality initiatives that we want to er to take and so we set ourselves really basically three broad objectives. Further changes were required to the to the office and to the practice generally er we wanted to maximise on the er er o on the benefits that were going to be derived and the qualities and the skills that we have already got in place er and we wanted to move towards market leadership. But in those general objectives, we then set ourselves the top ten, top ten objectives and how we are going to actually action those objectives er to er move forward and if they were achieved, we thought if we achieved those ten objectives and that's going to take time and as I say it's a dynamic plan, it's going to take two, three years to achieve and if we achieve those objectives then we will have achieved our own rule er our overall mission. So I wanted to raise the profile er of the Manchester office er and er in the north western community. The situation as we saw it was that there were no obvious leading firms er there were firms that had a particularly they were leaders in a particular niche markets for example "s being very aggressive, they were certainly nationally leading on insolvency and they were getting a lot of a lot of beneficial er publicity from that, locally we saw them er as erm th they were very good in the tax field and certainly in the consultancy field, having one of their major consultancy based in by the airport. we saw as probably being fairly strong in the corporate finance field. we saw as being very strong again in tax er and certainly in the er, in the major fields, these fields. So how we, so there was no obvious leader and how are we gonna pull ourselves ah ahead, well we have to improve our media coverage and we've done quite a lot on that, John's been very successful in getting quite a lot of media coverage both for individuals within the firm and for the the firm as a whole. Er we're going to continue our focus sponsorship on and corporate hospitality er we're going to set up er a chairman and chief executives' club which we er, we have now done being and that it's the chief executives' club, it's their club, we facilitated, have er four or so er lunches er a year and a launch lunch for example we have as a keynote speaker. Er and that's been quite successful, about twenty five or thirty chief executives, chairman come to that lunch er each each quarter or so er we hosted about six of us and it's a tremendous opportunity to get to know and be known er in the business community. Continuing with our high profile er lunches, there was another objective, objective, overall objective of raising the profile of the office and finally, within that heading our action point was that er we would look at partner representation on various various bodies, not only partner representation, senior staff representation on various bodies. It's important again that we were seen around in the business community. Seen around er in the city. Er for example Claire 's on the er board as you know non Executive Director on er I've just er become honorary treasurer of the I'm, not quite sure whether that's a plus or a minus at this point in time er and also volunteered to be Chairman of an Airport Supporters" Group so please don't tell anybody where I live [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] on that. come and sit down the front here to. [speaker002:] [cough]. [speaker001:] O K so that was the first objective, next objective [speaker002:] [cough]. [speaker001:] win more quality plc clients. That [cough] it's quite a long time to achieve. We audit ten of the forty main requirements in Manchester but as I said earlier taking P G's and P W's as being er predominant in the larger plc markets. So we have to er set out our stall there to form, first of all identify those target P L C's which we really did want to get close to. Probably we felt they were the sort of client that we wanted or that there was already er a connection that we had er or there was a particular service that we thought we could offer and penetrate them in that way. Didn't have a great long list, perhaps only about six or ten major P L C's. Formed in teams, this task it was then to er across the practice areas whose task it was to get into those clients, get to know them, get to know their industry, get to know the people and find ways in which we could actually penetrate them and er open doors and that was going to take a long time and it is taking a long time. Er the second initiative was to form industry groups, er textiles, retail, er automotive erm chemicals and plastics, none of those industry groups will be surprising to you since those are all the predominant industry groups in the region but again forming groups, three, four, five people again across practice areas to get to know about that particular industry group so that they can focus on er er companies that are operating in that group er put on seminars er and have small workshops, they would attract those sort of people, those sort of businesses in and in that way penetrate the er companies. That's starting to take er effect and is actually beginning to er, to pay off. It will only be small at the outset for example one might get the opportunity to go in and on or might get the opportunity to go and advise on P R P or something and it's not suddenly going to result in an invitation er to.... Er on the public sector side this was quite specific, the child's and the public sector er group er were also going to develop an internal audit product for the public sector but they a huge market in fact and we saw er great opportunities for us to develop that side of the er the business and coming very much under the wing quality public er public company clients, very large clients, great potention for us.... Next objective,... all well and good focusing on the and the and the people like that but let's er also er make sure that we don't forget er not focus on the middle market. The the details of companies in the north west, there are a huge number of medium sized P L C's, once you've chopped off the the top ten, and it's headed by believe it or not and it's registered office happens to be up there at. Once you've chopped off the top ten, there are mass mi middle, medium sized P L C's, the nine million to fifty million turnover er company and they're looked after by some by major firms, some more often than not by the second tier firms, so we can see very much and we can penetrate those er that middle market situation, then [clears throat] these are the companies in the future that will er will probably be the big P L C's and also these it will be easier to get into these organisations er with the services that we have to look through to offer. To that end, again we will probably be stronger in that area but t to that end we formed a group of partners who were going to specifically target er that that market place er we drew from the triple A practice and tax practice and M C S. Looking at the products and the reviews to get into that first those those clients. Er we set up on a regional basis er er Robert talked to you a couple of months ago about the initiatives that he's taking from our and that again is a very much of a cross practice initiative er which is drawing on all the skills that we've got within the with within the office penetrate the middle market sector and we are going to er specifically use er our grounds expertise and er computer audit expertise as a product which we saw would be attractive to these er these sort of companies. One of erm questions which I was asked to address on this occasion was er in connection with the obtaining of new work was why erm don't we er give financial incentives to er if they are successful in bringing in new work. Erm I don't have any problem with er with giving people financial incentive, I do have a problem with the concept of er giving people a finesty or a commission or something like that if we're successful in obtaining in obtaining new work, that is not an fashion view, that is not how a professional office of a professional organisation works. If anybody is successful in bringing in new work into the office, clearly that reflects in their achievements and their objectives, merely that reflects in their assessment so far as er their managers and are concerned and clearly that will will be reflected in their pay, so that will be the way that er we would normally tackle and that would be the way I I was prepared to tackle it.... Coming now from, down to more specific ways of winning new work, due diligence was an initiative which we wanted to er tackle but not only in this office across the country and across the northern region.... We have a tremendous skill base at doing good due diligence work when all said and done due diligence work is really just a focussed audit approach and if we've good auditors, we should jolly well and good er new diligence er provides and we to react to new diligence opportunities rather than seek out new diligence opportunities. Partners and staff are well known in the City,w providers of due diligence work with the major capitalists, with the bankers er with with the merchant bankers and so on and of course our plans for providing us with due diligence work. was going out of this area to the providers of er of capital, for opportunities within this area we can go to London for example be many bankers there who will be being approached by companies within the northern region, north west region asking them for money to support them in their [clears throat] in their ventures. Er so that was a market place that we really weren't tapping from this region, they have been tapping into London. There was great scope we saw for matching marketing, the due diligence product outside er Manchester area er that has been particularly successful we are going to have, well all of you are probably aware of of a significant increase in the in the of due dili due diligence work er very encouraging that er most of it I think I'm right in saying has come, certainly the bigger ones have come from out with the region er and have been introduced to us from bankers er in London, er initially we've had er a lot of support from our er colleagues in London who've effected the introductions in the first place, precisely how the partnership virtually work. Er as a result of the success we've now got to go back and revisit it, I mean Ian you know has been leading in from from this office er and that it's the person contact which counts for so much. So we've now got to go back and revisit it, he's full up er, we've got to look at his client, client load er and we've got to find other ways in which we can actually service the due diligence work, still using him very much as the marketing focus to er the initiative and continue the the growth. Diligence, next one specific er to the [clears throat] er to the tax practice was the need to sort to establish er a a pensions er capability A B C capability, er Leeds office has had an A B C capability for er I think it's erm six or seven years, something in that order. The number of people involved in the sort of work there was er something like twelve to twelve and fifteen people er added up er responsible for A B C. So it didn't make any sense to us to think well if Leeds have got a million pound practice there, why have we got nothing here. It's the same sort of cities commercial centre er let's explore the opportunities, there must be a market place out there er and market place across the north of England must be vast when you think about all the pension funds that are connected to the er to the public companies. Er so we [speaker002:] [cough]. [speaker001:] set out our stock, set out our stall er to er er get a capability here erm, we've already er got er er er we've started a process a and we're going to start recruiting actual area capability in the not too distant future. Er that's going to take some time er to start penetrating again er companies that er will provide us with the er with the work opportunities. That's quite specific to the tax bracket but the source of work in Leeds has been very much from er corporate finance and from the insolvency practice, whilst that is er obviously a way forward for us in the initial stages. We also see great opportunity get into pension funds to help people manage their pension funds and set up pension funds er for clients and and other targets.... Then we move on from the getting of work, the erm doing of work to ensuring that the operations are not in going back to our quality, that the actual profit that we are producing and delivering is er of the top top quality. When you have erm we we've decided that it was important that, I mean it seems very fashionable, that we measure client satisfaction. All of us go and take our cars in to be serviced and what have you and nearly always get a sh piece of paper comes back and please will you tick them box on a Richter scale of nought to ten er and they are all the time trying to improve er customer satisfaction. Er this is alright we've done it informally in the past, you know I've talked to many clients some of which I handle some of which I don't and always the question is er are we giving erm a service that we can improve on, if you look dealing with er are there any points you'd like to raise with me, all these sort of questions but it's all very unstructured er and sometimes it's er er results in us having an action plan emerging, sometimes not. Erm so we decided that it was important to try and find some more formalised way of testing what er the market satisfaction was and the service we are providing. That's proved to be quite difficult because the firm as a whole is trying it out but it for example with M C S it can be related to a particular task, to a particular erm assignment, so it's assignment related. They can settle down more easily in those circumstances but the questionnaire is saying, please will you fill in the answer the following questions and let us have it back. Where they repairing client, where there is hopefully an extremely good relationship, we felt that that was a bit dangerous to be sending out a form to the Chief Executive of saying what er do you think of the service. Might not like the [LAUGHTER] answers [] perhaps that why we are a little nervous about this. Er and so we are looking at ways in which we can actually erm develop this and the firm as a whole is doing that as well and er we are to a certain extent that initiative. We've also er recently been talking to erm a lecturer of the University who is doing a project, a research project, and would like to er offer his services to us in in that er in that project, so we at the early stages but nonetheless I think it is er very important that we do er test the market place and find out what both think of us, so that we with a prime and only objective of improving a service [speaker002:] [cough]. [speaker001:] so we mustn't feel hurt, I'd probably feel hurt we mustn't be er adversely react if we don't like the answers that we get. Watch this space.... To improve the quality of our work, these are erm, when I say though the current position is the technical quality is variable, these this assessment comes from internal reviews which are carried out and we have annual quality control reviews in all parts of the of the practice and the answers that have been come back coming back from those quality control reviews have and they're pretty strict reviews it seems, strictly in accordance with the book, strictly in accordance with all the reg rules and regulations and, so if one has deviated from those and it's hardly surprising how very high standards B S five seven five O would have, be quite easy to obtain in most of our practice areas, so it's hardly surprising that there will be occasions when we don't actually er come up with ten out of ten on a on an assignment. There's no excuse for that and if we're er having as one of our major platforms of our business initiative's quality, then er the quality must be right one hundred per cent all the time er so I was somewhat bothered that we were an an disappointed I suppose that we didn't get high ratings in the quality control reviews which were carried out, so to that end we were make make sure the next time we came round with a better score er so er we are looking at what's called hot reviews which is looking at er an audit for example before it's finalised by somebody completely independent of the job carrying out a technical review of the way in which tha that audit has been conducted er we are looking at it after the jobs been finished and probably in the slack season in the summer get people to actually review as if they were doing a dry quality control review of the job er prior to us getting an external review er carried out. Go through those reviews, go through those files to see whether or not they, if the job's been conducted properly. Er I think also helps a lot in this process er and that's that's particularly er relevant of the audit practice almost starting to be reduced into the tax practice as well. So people have been forced to look at the way in which they are doing the work in er conjunction with er the manual for whatever other book of rules they have I wished they'd do they carry out their work. So that figure's also er er it's helped a lot. Erm the other part of course of quality control is making sure that partners and staff er to speak on quality er er it is ess essential that we attend the necessary courses to keep us up to date, it is essential er that the er that we get our C P units, it is essential that staff are not withdrawn from er training courses er when there's a pressing client there er so that we should er ensure that everybody gets the necessary training to achieve this objective.... That moves neatly on to making sure that we... have the right people to do the job. Erm plans for the succession er and development of senior people and some of the plans this is going back to July er were in place then, most of the plans are in place now erm has probably most of you know are retiring in in October er their jobs have now all been allocated and are in the process of being transferred to the partners. Er that will er be achieved certainly after the end of er this season. Er we want to er develop a training programme for part of selling skills training programme for partners and senior senior managers, senior er members of staff. Partners have already er had that training er during the er during the summer months er it was carried out by er an outside consultant and most of us subjected ourselves to the se selling course, I think most of us derived some benefit from it. We also learnt quite a lot as to how we should do it next time, so when we now to it for senior managers erm come April May time er and hopefully that er training will be improved on the benefit going through. That is obviously something which we've just got to keep topping up but it was recognised by the fathers that will there was we needed to be helped [clears throat] to train to to sell and so we needed that training er to get us get us going so to speak, there were no natural salesmen amongst departments. Erm we also wanted to implement a plan er and this is an ongoing er situation of admitting er young blood to the partnership over a period of of erm five years or so, again that's a rolling programme [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] but the age profile of the partnership in this office is a bit on the aged side er and it should be er younger, it would certainly be healthier if it was a bit younger.... specific points in the development of people, whilst that we recognise that the partners in practice was going to go into a quiet spell er something but we would run the risk if that happened on losing the expertise, the skill base that we've got there and the undoubted qualities of the people within, we had to find a way in which we could use that skill base and other practice er of the practice and in fact that's been quite successfully achieved in in recent months er with due diligence work for example er with legal support work is another example, when people in the insolvency practice have been very active on special science weeks ago tree. That was good, that's been very very good...

[Andrew:] . [speaker002:] Okay so it's more of a long term [Andrew:] A long term solution... [speaker002:] benefit Yeah. So and our company tends to look at things more on the short term. Any other reasons for not training [Andrew:] time factor [speaker002:] Time [speaker003:] You may not have the support of people around you because [cough] [speaker004:] saying you've gotta train somebody on the list for instance, you've got to have a specialist to come in and do that so it's not something you do yourself. necessarily be able to to meet your requirement. [speaker002:] So it's not always having the resources [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] when you need it. [speaker004:] I think as well though often say one thing don't they like they spend all this money on training [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and they have all these like really good ideas Head Office and area office and everything like it counts for very little unless you've got the support of the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and all too often erm people are taking off departments to do training but then it's the same old thing of well it's the needs of the business [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and you've got to get back down on the shop do it. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] So, you know, there's no point in having all these systems set up if you haven't got the support at the branch level for it. [speaker002:] No. No I agree totally. Erm [LAUGHTER]. There is coming out with the same old thing again. One thing about leadership through team work is that it puts a much greater emphasis on training for the purposes of delegation and the word that they use to describe that piece is empowerment. [speaker004:] It's just that you see so much of it, not just like staff like training managers and everything, they're told to stick up and stick up for their training and at the end of the day it's oh well, it's the needs of the business and all that but aga the company this this [speaker003:] [cough]. [speaker004:] x amount of money to be a trainee [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and then they can expect them at the end of like x amount of time to be able to take over a department, then when it falls apart they're gonna be the one to take it. [speaker002:] So it comes back to the short erm thing again [speaker004:] Yeah [speaker002:] and the short term goal. I think with with the trainee managers being particular, a new system of coming in whereby it will be it will be more difficult to abuse trainee managers. [speaker004:] But how? [speaker002:] Because they're going to have to, at the end of their period of whether it's a year or eighteen months, they will hopefully be qualified for a national vocational qualification level three and in order to gain that they have to be assessed constantly throughout their eighteen months, there's no kind of [speaker004:] That's still not gonna, that's still not gonna take us away from, you know, sorry there's nobody on produce today, you're gonna sorry training is out of the window today and maybe, maybe the department manager on produce, I dunno goes sick or something and he has to take over there for two or three weeks and it's well don't worry you know you'll get back on to the training [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] when Steve comes back. I dunno maybe I'm just cynical. [speaker005:] national vocation I I really think that it's worse because they've not, whereas when I was a trainee you had your six weeks on produce, your six weeks on whatever in the branch of that now and they didn't have that, they haven't got any training plan, so they've got nothing to say well career, branch branch need here and I need to be here and I need to be here. And they're just left to get on to these fifteen projects whenever. [speaker002:] They should have been supplied with the programme by the area office. [speaker004:] Well they've, they've told me they've got to go a, a tutor it's another branch manager at a different branch. [speaker002:] They've got to what? [speaker005:] have a tutor and they've [speaker004:] he works out the. [speaker002:] . Wh wi what should be happening is that each each trainee manager within each branch has an assessor within the branch who will be one of the deputy managers, they also have a mentor within the branch. Erm and eventually all the depart all of the training assessors. So be held to go to another branch [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] They shouldn't be. I think the difficulty at the moment, because with that it's a trial, only a certain amount of people have been trained in those roles and trainees are moved around a lot [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker004:] reception. [speaker002:] At the end of the day that trainee will not get his N V Q and what's going to happen is that branch managers be penalized if that happens. [Andrew:] will they be penalized [speaker004:] yeah that's true but how, how are they gonna be penalised. [Andrew:] in their appraisals [speaker002:] Because it's a national thing I mean it's something the company is hoping to go forward with the time it's a government initiative, if we are offering trainee managers when they join us an, an N V Q and they don't get it... at the end of their training. One we're gonna have problems retaining staff and two we're not meeting erm [Andrew:] I mean can they prosecute them? [speaker002:] No you won't I mean there won't be criminal prosecution or anything like that. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] but erm, you know, they'll get a lot of trouble and there's a register, there's a natural register of assessors and if an assessor is not seen to be doing his job he'll get struck off basically and that will cause major problems then [Andrew:] So w what are they going to do branch managers just slap his wrists in his appraisal and then [speaker003:] More or less [speaker004:] Well as i said earlier today [Andrew:] . [speaker002:] Appraisals are being changed are being rewritten basically so that yourself and branch managers are much more accountable for training development [Andrew:] Yeah but what's going to happen to the branch manager? Nothing [Paula:] What sanctions are gonna be taken? [Andrew:] Exactly I mean what are they gonna do [speaker002:] Well [Andrew:] for a year or something. [speaker002:] I would have thought the threat that you're not going to get on because you've had a crap appraisal would be fairly significant... and I think that most branch managers [speaker004:] is is one trainee manager important enough to affect his whole appraisal? [speaker002:] No it's not it's not it's not going to be the trainee manager, it's not gonna just be the trainee, it's going to be everybody all of the management team within the branch. becomes a m much major, more major part of his appraisal then, I mean branch managers tend to be fairly ambitious people, they're not going to want to be let down on that... I don't think. Anyway that's something to speculate on. Any other reasons for not showing... do you think? [speaker005:] Some people don't train other people to do their jobs because they want to keep their jobs for themselves otherwise they start to lose their control. [speaker004:] Alright so fear of loss of control. [speaker002:] Do you think that's justified [Paula:] No bad reason not training. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] So I think you know the more you train people, that really gives you greater power doesn't it?... Also what about the fear that somebody's gonna not gonna do it as well as you? Anybody come across that? Yeah Andrew. [Andrew:] Yes [speaker004:] Sometimes give it away and say right I'll teach you how to do this, when they keep coming back and saying what wh you're running out of time and you think give it you can it's quite common. [speaker002:] It goes back to the short term thing, you fear that they don't do it as well.... [speaker003:] [cough]. [speaker002:] I remember when I was a trainee manager erm I was never allowed to do the ever. I practically never looked at the. Basically because the produce manager who was training me was so scared of me making a cock up, he never never left my side when I was. [speaker004:] I've got a trainee manager at the moment and I've been trying to he's just making such a balls up [LAUGHTER] it's easier not to. That's how you feel anyway. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But nobod nobody's ever gonna w learn anything are they? [speaker002:] months. [LAUGHTER]. [Andrew:] this to a and you're totally in charge of it you won't really get to grips and get. I can see your point. [Alex:] lovely. [Andrew:] I see you then [speaker004:] Yeah, [Andrew:] at the end [speaker002:] Yeah but but at the end of the day how's that person gonna learn. I mean. [speaker004:] sitting there and watching me [speaker002:] Yeah I mean sitting there together possibly [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] for a greater length of time [Andrew:] and having a go services. [speaker002:] Just say no you're doing that I'm doing it. [Alex:] most times keep interfering all the time [speaker003:] [cough]. [speaker004:] Mm. [Andrew:] Are a bit sort of. Right now we a lot more problem. [speaker004:] Mm. It's a risk basically [Andrew:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Training people is a risk. [Andrew:] at the end of the day. [speaker004:] Yeah. [Paula:] When I was a trainee my deputy fresh foods went it with me, and like he'd sit there and he'd say right this is how you do it at first and then he'd let me do some and well I'd do them and he'd say why have you done that and I'd tell him and then he'd let me do it [speaker003:] Mm. [Paula:] and check it afterwards. [speaker003:] Mm. [Paula:] and that worked really well. [speaker002:] So that's one way you think that people learnt,how how else do you think people benefit from learning? [Paula:] Well phrase that one [Andrew:] by mistakes [speaker002:] How do how do people learn? [Andrew:] By their mistakes [speaker002:] by making mistakes by somebody sitting down and explaining things to them [speaker004:] showing you physically how to do it to. [speaker002:] sitting with that's what they call it, isn't it?. [Andrew:] Then showing them the results of what they've actually done. [speaker002:] Mm yeah Okay. So it's a very much a two way communication spending time with them. [Andrew:] [cough]. [speaker002:] That explanation comes into it a great deal really. Erm can I have a volunteer please. Not gonna set fire to you. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Okay. Right Alex I have something I needed to tell you. I am in fact not from retail training. I am an alien from the planet Zog Okay [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] and I need you to tell me how to light a match. I'm an alien remember. [Alex:] Can you understand it? Can you understand my language? [speaker002:] I speak plain English. [Alex:] Right, take that box... put in flat in your hand... [speaker002:] You are not allowed to touch me or the box. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [Alex:] quite easy. Take your two fingers like that,... no the other hand [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [Alex:] box, difficult [speaker002:] Carry on. [Alex:] pick it up [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [Alex:] with your hand. Put it in the palm of your hand.... Two fingers this hand, gently... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Hold the box. [Alex:] Hold the box.... Step in the box [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER]. [Alex:] S strike it... on the edge. On the edge, on the top. Do the other end the match. Turn the match round... right, do it again. Thank you. Again... again... [speaker002:] Right, thank you very much. Sorry for giving you a hard time there. Okay what did we learn from that? [Alex:] I can speak zog. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Yeah apart from the fact that th about that. What did we learn from that? [speaker004:] . [speaker002:] Yeah. What did Alex assume with me there? [Andrew:] That you understood. That you understood [speaker002:] Yeah, that I understood [Andrew:] What I wanted you to do straight away. The actions [speaker002:] So we talked about the edge. We talked about pick it up. You assumed I would know to pick it up to like that and I grabbed it like that. Okay has anybody ever assumed things with people that they've been training? [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] What have you assumed wrongly? [Andrew:] That they would pick up things as quickly or as quick as you have picked them up. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Paula:] That they learn like you do. [Andrew:] That they would, they would clone you, so if you think to er you were trained on something, you think well we should know that because I knew that. I mean that's probably a big mistake we all make. [speaker002:] Right, so interpretate in different ways don't they? [Andrew:] Yeah. [speaker002:] People have got different levels, different speeds if you like. What else? [Paula:] The jargon when somebody's new you presume they know the word plinth [speaker002:] Yeah. Another example of that, when a colleague of mine joined as a Trainee Manager, she was being shown round the branch by the Section and as they went, they were walking along she said oh this is the room and Susie thought, what's it, a buff and she said that's racking and Susie said what's the overs racking. She said it's where we keep the B line overs. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Which didn't help very much. I mean did anybody similar experiences [speaker003:] yeah [Andrew:] When you join the company there's so many J S words, I mean you just, you just, I mean half of it goes over your head, I mean it's get that go get that out of the buffer room. where the hell is that? [speaker002:] Yeah. I think that's something we've got to be careful of. So it's jargon, it's assuming people will pick things up as quickly as we have and it's not recognising that people have different interpretations. I'm going ask you to do an exercise now and split you into groups of three.... If you just sit, stay where you are thank you. table, you three. One of you in each group, who, put your hand up if you're good at making a paper aeroplane. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker002:] One person in each group. One person in each group. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Right your training. You're the trainers. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] We also need one person in each group who's crap at making paper aeroplanes. [Alex:] . [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] the other person is going to be the observer. Right. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Now. You've got fifteen minutes in which the trainer has got to teach the person who's making paper aeroplanes how to make them, alright, and tell them [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] I want the observer to note the training methods used what basically went on and at the end of the day I will see the person who's been in training make a paper aeroplane and I will judge these on two criterias [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Firstly, on how far it flies and secondly on its aesthetic value. [Alex:] First can I just ask, as, as somebody who's building a paper aeroplane you got assumption whatsoever, so am I supposed to say I don't know the first thing about making a paper aeroplane, you you told me. [speaker002:] That's something you have to explore for yourself. [Alex:] Right, [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] So if you just use one sheet of A four does. You can go out on the landing if you want to [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Training method you could use is er [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Yeah you can go out in the hall or go in the syndicate room [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Fold it down [speaker003:] . Yes. [speaker002:] Do the same thing again. [speaker003:] . Like that. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Okay right [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] like that yeah. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Well actually we're gonna [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] That's not very nice is it? [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] do it on my own [speaker004:] I've gotta try excellent [Andrew:] beautiful. [speaker003:] . [cough]. . take it away. . [LAUGHTER]. [Andrew:] Are you waiting for this. [speaker004:] No we've got, you've got until twenty five past. [speaker003:] . [Andrew:] I think we're all ready [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] If you're all ready go and get the other group. [speaker003:] . [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker004:] Oh T Tony down there. [Tony:] . [Andrew:] Spitfires... [speaker003:] . [Andrew:] . [speaker004:] Yeah I know. [Andrew:] . [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Would have gone first . [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Group one [speaker004:] Have we got to make one in front of you? [speaker002:] No, no, you don't have to make one, using your aeroplane your prototype erm would you like to come and have a test flight. Okay who's the trainee? [Andrew:] You are. [speaker003:] . . [speaker002:] Right Okay. Thank you. Group number two [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Erm Okay erm thank you [speaker003:] . [speaker004:] This is a work of art this [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Thank you, next one [speaker003:] . [speaker004:] Wally [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Okay well the one that went the furthest was [Andrew:] that one went further [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Okay well I think in aesthetic terms... they're both awful. [speaker003:] . [speaker004:] This one's a little bit of ornamentation. [speaker002:] You've cracked it. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] I think it is going to have to be a draw attractive but it didn't fly very far... probably the aim of the game. [Alex:] The ones that flew are all designed with a serial number. [speaker004:] the same I do believe [Alex:] . [speaker003:] Their design's the same, their design's the same. [speaker002:] Just to finish then, trainers, who was the trainer from this group? [speaker004:] He was. [speaker003:] I was the trainee, you were the trainer, weren't you. . No I was trainee you you were teaching. [speaker002:] You were teaching. Who was teaching who. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Alex you were. The observers, what happened, tell me, what what happened. [speaker003:] The first thing explained exactly what the process was going to be [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Then he actually made a paper aeroplane so that she had an example in front of her that she can look at to see what she is aiming for. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker003:] Erm and then what he did was, he they went through it together and he showed her what to do and she followed him and and as she did things right he praised her and gave her feedback and said she'd done it correctly and then then when there were things didn't understand she questioned him and then he clarified her. [speaker002:] Mm. It worked well. Okay thank you. What about the rest? Next next observer. [speaker003:] made an aeroplane very quickly first which I think was his big mistake because he then tried to explain to how to make it and kept wanting to touch her aeroplane [LAUGHTER] and you've basically I think the mistake you made basically was . He he didn't make one at the same time as, you know, to actually show the folds and that . [speaker002:] to get both. [speaker003:] exactly half way through to changing design, so it was nothing like . [speaker002:] Okay. What about the next erm. [Andrew:] to say. They made one together [speaker002:] Yeah. [Andrew:] and followed all the instructions, and, she wasn't sure she asked and then make one on her own and then. [speaker002:] Right thank you. [Andrew:] . [speaker002:] Next. [speaker003:] We made one together, one each in step by step so... we showed 'em what to do and then if you weren't sure you asked or if he wasn't doing it right so they did it together technical erm situation. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] bit complicated [] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] How about the next group, next observer [speaker003:] Yeah, they did it together erm step by step erm it was Okay she questioned if she didn't know what we were saying erm wasn't that specific but then she made one herself following his instructions. [speaker002:] Okay thank you and what about the last group. [Tony:] Yeah that was good, similar sort of thing really, showing sort of thing by example. [speaker002:] Mm. [Tony:] Made one at the same time together. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Tony:] Erm erm they just went through it like that and then he gave her instructions on how to fly it as well, how to throw it [speaker002:] Right. [Tony:] and erm practice at actually making it. [speaker002:] Okay so there's lots of showing somebody, actually demonstrating how something is made then doing it together step by step and as you say follow up with going through the whole stage not just making the plane but actually demonstrating how it works. Alright, I mean you said there that people tended to ask questions if they didn't understand. Did any of you actually say at the beginning, if you have any questions while I'm going along, please ask? [speaker003:] no [speaker002:] mean you're all quite an observant bunch here [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] So you all took the initiative to ask questions as you go along without necessarily being invited to. Some people won't do that. Some people would feel silly if they're asking questions [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] did that right I think that that's a good point to remember when you're training somebody. [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] What are the general points from that.. [speaker003:] Praise. [speaker002:] Praise? Did did praise you? [speaker003:] he did when I wasn't acting thick. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker002:] So he was making you feel as if you were getting somewhere [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker002:] Finally, then [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] if I can just have your attention for a moment There are various steps when you're training somebody they go through a number of steps. The first one is what we call unconscious incompetence. In that when somebody has just joined into the store for instance, joins the company, they don't know what they don't know. Okay so that's unconscious incompetence. The next stage is when they get to conscious incompetence. Okay so they, they know what's expected of them but they would without having had the practice or the experience [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] are still at an incompetent stage, they still are unable to carry out the job.... Thirdly, people reach a stage of what we conscious competence in that they're very aware of what they're doing and they're doing it correctly but they're still at that stage where they're fairly new and they're very conscious of what they're doing. Lastly, which is something we all reach eventually, hopefully, is what we call unconscious competence, when you know how to do something so well that you do it un without thinking, it's like driving. Teaching somebody to drive when you've driven yourself for a number of years is really hard. Thinking about the various stages you go through and then once you've reached the level of department managers at, on a lot of issues you tend to be at this stage but it's important to remember that a number of your staff may be down here somewhere.... What I'd like you to do just for the last ten minutes is to think of a member of staff you have who has a training need and think about how you will go about training them and the methods that you will use. Okay to try and improve their performance. So if you could just you've got. If you could just jot down a few ideas that. [speaker003:] Can I use this trainee manager? [speaker002:] Yes, yes Erm one once you've done that if you could give in diaries for the day and then your time is your own. There are handouts at the back the ones on that side are the ones from this afternoon there are some if you want a result of the really really good for train good handouts there so I would recommend you have a look. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] So there's the [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] . [Andrew:] because. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [Andrew:] . [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. . . . . . . . . . [speaker002:] . If you have any [speaker003:] . . . . . . . [speaker002:] Who were the winning group by the way? [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Who won, which group was the winning group. [speaker003:] . . [speaker002:] Which group won the aeroplane? [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] Oh right, who was the two groups then? You, was it you? [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] It's a bit out of order [LAUGHTER]. . So where's the black ones?. [LAUGHTER]. . [speaker002:] have we got all of that one? [speaker003:] . paint brush pot. [cough]. . [LAUGHTER]. . I'll see you tomorrow morning, got to do a shift. Yeah. . [speaker002:] Right I'll the erm. [speaker003:] .

[speaker001:] Systems developing in the N H S. The programme went on to produce the evidence, the minister Come on carry on, carry on The programme went on to produce such evidence including a two tier system for radiotherapy treatment where patients were Hear, hear. treated not Has the minister indicated Madam Speaker, this is my point of order, whether or not he intends to come before the house to acknowledge the reality of the two tier system and to admit he has been misleading the house. [Betty:] Order,or or or order, order, the honourable lady would not expect me to comment on something that has been on television, er in something that I I have no er I I didn't even see last night, it's up to the minister whether he wishes to come and make a statement it is really... not at all a point of order for me. Mr Riddock. [Riddock:] Thank you. Can you just confirm... that it's never been the practice to have an oral statement in this house on er prescription charges, neither under this Conservative government nor indeed under the pre previous Labour government who were always deeply embarrassed by increasing prescription charges. [Betty:] If the honourable gentleman looks at the official report tomorrow, he will see that the h leader of the house has dealt with that point. Yes Mr Winnick. [Winnick:] Speaker you are aware of course of the severe weather which affects most of the country and what I want to ask you Madam Speaker is simply this. In view of the agonizing difficulties faced by so many elderly people on very low incomes, is there any way this house, this week, can ask the minister to make a statement whether the cold weather payments could be made and all the red tape regulations removed... because... those payments are not made unless there are seven days of freezing weather and it does seem to me, the welfare of your old should have first priority. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Betty:] The honourable gentlemen is asking me for procedural advice across floor of the house, which he knows that I do not volunteer. Yes, Miss Mead. [Mead:] Further to the first point of order, is it an order for the press to hear about the proposed rise in prescription charges... before this house and wouldn't it have not been better if the Secretary of State to come and made a statement and we could have questioned her about it. [Betty:] I did deal with that matter er originally and I believe that the the state, the er answer to the question was available precisely at three thirty today. Yes Mr C was it Mr Gilfore, yes. [Gilfore:] Madam speaker. I I've just received a fax of a letter sent to the... leader of Liverpool City Council,coun er councillor Harry Rimmer by the right honourable member for Sutton Coldfield, in which he invites him... to join an organisation called team two thousand er and as part of this invitation he's invited to attend functions and briefings at Westminster, er at which cabinet m er ministers... ministers e cabinet members ministers members of parliament, will be present. My point of order is... is it i is it er in order Madam Speaker for ministers of the crown to abuse an office like this by inviting people here for party fund raising purposes. [Betty:] Er, the the the er... er the... fax in the first instance has been sent by a back bench member of this house who is not a minister, but I may tell the honourable gentleman that I get all sorts of things from mail shots inviting me to all er manner of functions, all of which find their way into the waste paper basket. Erm... [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Madam Speaker, arising out of question time today, the leader of the house... the leader of the house told the house that the Prime Minister has made a further statement on the back to basics policy, now since this has er we are told er permeated the whole of government policy since the prime minister's speech to the party conference last October, isn't it time... er that the Prime Minister was asked not to give statements to correspondents and at er press conferences, but made a statement to this... house about the back to basics policy and at the very least, placed a copy of his speech and his thinkings on the back to basics policy in the library. Hear, hear. [Betty:] Prime Minister is normally here a couple of times a week to answer questions maybe the honourable gentleman will catch my eye one time very soon, he can put that to the... Prime Minister himself. Yes, Mr Wilson. [Wilson:] I, on a point of order Madam Speaker, I understand that a major announcement in connection with rail privatisation is being made at this moment by way of written answer and press conference erm... the statement will reveal a huge increase in access charges for railway operators and ultimately therefore huge increases in costs for tax payers and passengers. Madam Speaker, this announcement is now almost a year delayed... the firm of Coopers and Lybrand have been paid one point six million pounds to come up with this ass access charging fiasco, surely this house in entitled to the, as entitled as the press to a full statement of the government's intentions so that they can be answered by. [Betty:] O o o o order, the honourable gentleman will recall that er in an earlier point of order I've already ruled on that matter. It is for ministers to determine themselves, whether they answer by means of a written question or whether they make an oral statement. That it is over something over which I have no control. I I've already made a ruling on that, on that point. I think we must now... move on, er yes Mr. [speaker001:] Speaker, is there some sanction that the chair can take against honourable members of this house... persistently raising bogus points of order. [Betty:] Er er that that o o order, order, it's a very good question er but I fear not that it is up to individual members themselves to exercise some restraint and to... and to u order, order, and to use the procedures of this house properly and correctly and not to abuse them. Yes Mr Cryer. [Banks:] Er Madam Speaker,... I understand the position you ma you the point you make about er... ministers det er determining whether they're going to make a statement by an oral statement or by... a written parliament question, but surely the speaker does have power... if he or she so determines... to summon er a minister here and particularly... if there's pressure in parliament to require a minister to come here and make a statement, that must be right. Otherwise how could speaker Lentor tell the King that the speaker on that's on that occasion could only be instructed by parliament. Surely ministers are inferior to parliament, not superior to a speaker. [Betty:] O order, order, as the honourable gentleman is fully aware, is fully aware, the speaker of this house has no authority whatsoever in demanding that ministers come here and make statements. It is for ministers themselves to decide whether they do that, the speaker has no authority in in determining that. Yeah mis Mr Banks. [Cryer:] Madam Speaker we understand that er the Tory whips are busily arranging marriages for certain of their members opposite. Would it be in order if such marriages are arranged for them to be co-joined er downstairs in St. Stephens crypt? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Betty:] that is barely... barely a point of order for me. I think on that note... we might now pass on er to er presentation of bills. Ray Mickey. [Mickey:] Referendum Scotland bill. [Betty:] Second reading what day? [speaker001:] Eleventh of March. [Betty:] Friday the eleventh of March.... Mr Harry Cohen. [speaker001:] Marriage amendment bill. [Betty:] Second reading, what day? [speaker001:] Friday the eleventh of March. [Betty:] Friday the eleventh of March.... rule motion, Mr Harry Barnes. I beg to move that lead beginning... did beg given to bring in a bill to extend and improve methods of electoral registration and to allow disabled people to gain access to polling stations. My bill falls into two parts, one which deals with the need for a full franchise... it is sometimes mistakenly believed that we already have a full franchise in this country, but whereas legislation was passed... in the past in order to extend the franchise, in recent years we have let matters slip considerably on the methods that are used for registration and no longer can we claim to have that full franchise. The second part of the bill is to provide er access for disabled people and others... to polling stations. For even if we achieve the objective of a full franchise... then the purpose of that full franchise will not work for disabled people if they don't have full access to polling stations, they only then have the alternative of using postal or proxy votes and not exercising their franchise in the same way that able-bodied people er will do and their full right are part of the measure that I'm seeking the house to agree that I should... pursue. What's wrong with the current methods of electoral registration?... Well, there are millions of people who are missing from electoral registers, who are people who are entitled to be registered and the problem is probably the greatest among those who are known as attainers and are qualifying for registration at eighteen for the first time in their lives, the numbers of attainers er qualifying has reduced percentage wise, year by year, especially since the introduction of the poll tax and has not been rectified by the measures that remove the poll tax. In... official figures it is shown that... only ninety five percent of people who are eligible to be registered in England and Wales appear upon electoral registers. In London the figure is only eighty eight point four percent... but even the ninety five percent figure and the eighty eight four percent figures are artificially inflated because those elements include people who have died and not have not been removed from the register, people who have emigrated, people who have otherwise moved to other parts of the country and who it is unreasonable to expect will all be seeking to make use of postal or proxy vote... facilities. There's a great deal of double counting that takes place, it might be that some honourable members in this house actually appear upon two registers, one in London and one within the area in which they reside, normally within their constituency... and many people are merely carried over from past registers, without any serious canvassing taking place to find out whether they are the people to be on the registers or whether someone else should be put in their place. We also have a mobile... disenchanted society in which people do get on their bikes, move around from bedsitter to bedsitter with growing elements of homelessness and there are serious problems about registration. The office of census, populations and surveys estimates that three point four million people in England and Wales alone are missing from electoral registers. Probably four million people in the United Kingdom and a million alone in greater London. The method we use is outdated. We have a qualifying date for registration of October the tenth and the registers come into operation... on February the sixteenth, registers are coming into operation... tomorrow.... They last for a year, so by the qualifying date has been acted upon, registers are sixteen months old by they are finished with. The Hansard society has shown that a register, an average register, is likely to be sixteen percent out by the end of the its life. Now my bill will seek to tackle this serious problem by introducing a rolling register that would allow addition and deletions of names as poo people move. It would provide for extra authority and resources for electoral returning officers. So that housing movement information, details of deaths that are registered, information from statutory undertakings. Ex exchanges er with... information from other electoral returning officers and regular canvassing take place. All these to be subject to strict confidentiality rules so that the information is to be used for electoral returning purposes... only. Registers will roll... until elections are announced and then when elections are announced it will be the closing date for that particular election and polling cards will immediately be issued with massive publicity around them so that people who don't get polling cards, discover that they're not on registers and will still have time because they've qualified by the qualifying date to get themselves entered onto registers within a week of the election... taking place. Afterwards the registers will continue to roll. There will still be required annual registration but this will be more of a check upon the existing state of the rolling register and will supply extra information that can be acted upon by the electoral returning officer. When it comes to access to polling stations... this will require accessibility audits to be undertaken by electoral returning officers. Full consultations with relevant voluntary organisations representing disabled people. Bodies such as Links and the Spastic Society which produce quite a substantial report at the last election to illustrate what the problems were... then there will be established designated polling stations in which there will be various characteristics required such as wheelchair access, unaided wheelchair access, although the problem of accessibility is for more people than those people who are in wheelchairs and many people who are not registered disabled and are mainly old and infirm, should have the opportunity to exercise their franchise readily and easily. Designated accessible polling stations, er will themselves have to cover fifty percent or so of a constituency initially... and people will be allowed to have access to a designated station if their own station is one that has not qualified at that time, although the aim will be a hundred percent designated er polling stations with full access. Now the... point about this measure... is how will the Secretary of State... for home affairs, respond to this proposal because this is a re-run, this ten minute ruled bill, of the bill that I introduced last year under the private members bill procedure in which the... er junior minister that is currently at the despatch box, said that he accepted the principals of seeking to achieve full registration but felt that the measure itself was premature, premature in that the Home Office were investigating... er numbers and matters concerned with the electoral registration and electoral provision, arising from experience at the last general election but I think it was beginning to be accepted that the poll tax had had a serious impact upon the electoral register although there were many other er elements that provided great difficulty. What we now need to ask is... has the time arrived er for this measure to begin to be acceptable by the Home Office, it would be nice if there was a just a little indication er as I'm er proceeding through er this measure from the minister at the despatch box, that the time was now right for this er particular proposal er which was not anything that was voted against... er on second reading but merely failed to overcome the hurdle of getting a closure when by seventy eight votes to nil er it was carried except that carrying was not sufficient in order arrive at a closure so that the measure could move in the committee. Now it would... maybe not be appropriate if there was to be an alternative government bill that would deal with these type of matters er in front of us and please to say that when I read out the list of sponsors, it'll be shown there are people from all parties, or all parties in Britain in this house, who are true democrats. [speaker001:] The the question is that honourable member to bring in his bill say aye. Aye. they ayes 'ave it, the ayes 'ave it. Who will confirm bring in the bill? [Betty:] Mr Robert McLellan... Mrs Margaret Ewing... Doctor Norman Godman... Mr Dafydd Wigley... Mr Richard Sheppard, Mr David Crimble, Alice Mahon, Mr David Alton, Mr Bill Mickey and myself. [speaker001:] Can't be bad can it? Representation of the people amendment bill. Seconded in what day? Friday May the twentieth. the twentieth, thank you. Now come to motions one and three representation of the people... Mr. Mr speaker I beg to move that the draft European parliamentary constituency's England order... nineteen ninety four erm the draft European parliamentary constituency's Wales order nineteen ninety four which were laid before the house on the twentieth of January... together with the draft European parliamentary election changes to the franchise and qualification of representatives regulations nineteen ninety four... which were laid on the second of February, be approved. First I shall deal with the two constituencies orders... [clears throat] which establish new boundaries for the European parliamentary constituencies. These two orders give effect to the recommendations contained in the reports of the European parliamentary constituencies committee for England and the similar er er parliamentary constituencies committees for Wales... respectively. The two committees were set up... under the provisions of the European parliamentary elections act nineteen ninety three, to carry out the task of determining the European parliamentary constituencies... into which England and Wales... should initially be divided to give effect to the increase, the section one of that act, made to the number of constituencies. I I'm very grateful to the minister but I want to ask him a straightforward question. There is the suggestion that France may not promulgate the additional seats. If that was so, and we today have passed these orders, would it require new primary legislation to reinstate the old boundaries er which would be necessary if I understand, France refuses to advance the additional seats which were agreed as part of the Maastricht negotiations. The honourable gentleman said that was a straight question, I shall give him a straight answer, er no it wouldn't, er... if I can... return to the line of er explanation I was giving Mr Deputy Speaker. If I may remind the house of the background to this. Agreement was reached at the European council at Edinburgh in December nineteen ninety two that the European parliament should be enlarged by allocating additional seats to some member states. [clears throat] The primary reason for this was the... large increase er in the population of Germany arising out of the reunification of country. Eighteen extra seats have therefore been allocated to Germany to take account of the increased electric there. The United Kingdom received six extra seats under the agreement, of these six, five have been allocated to England and one to Wales, which the government, in a moment, which the government believes is the fairest distribution on an arithmetical basis. I give way. Would my honourable friend be able to explain why it was that in the run up to negotiations with respect to the question of increase in the number of seats er, the German government made it quite clear that they were not interested or didn't want to have the additional number of seats and then subsequently, for reasons that have never been fully explained, we then found that er they had an additional eighteen. Could my honourable friend explain how that came about? Well, no I can't give er my honourable friends the ins and outs of the negotiations. Suffice as it's to say that the... negotiations did provide for extra seats for Germany in account of the additional population that accrued to Germany from the reunification of East and West Germany and er... er at the same time the opportunity was taken to allot some extra seats to some other countries er which erm bore in mind... er more closely than before, the respective differences in population sizes of the various countries that make up the community, er the two special committees that I referred to Mr Deputy Speaker, were set up in July nineteen ninety three. They followed as far as possible in the time available, the practices and procedures... of the permanent parliamentary boundary commission, indeed... of the six members of the committees, five were members of the parliamentary boundary commissions and they were appointed to the committees after consultation with the opposition parties. The committees had to work to a very tight timetable. They published provisional recommendations last September and allowed one month for representations and counter proposals to be made. Copies of all the counter proposals and representations were then placed on local deposit in council offices... and a further period allowed for representations to be made about them. The committees made their final recommendations to my right honourable and learned friend... just before Christmas. [clears throat] In making those recommendations they made clear they took into account the recommend the representations made and views expressed to them whilst complying with the statutory requirement that they should aim to recommend the European parliamentary constituencies with as nearly as possible equal electorates. Although I recognise that they may not have pleased everybody, an aim which I think the house would agree, would be impossible to achieve, I believe they have carried out their task in an objective and impartial way. The orders therefore... give effect without modification to their recommendations and I hope the house will approve them. Er may I turn now to the regulations before the house. it's just I did want clarification on that point and I didn't quite understand the answer. If the French do not proceed erm as they are indicating, what happens then to the status of our own constituencies. Do we have the constituencies as were before the additional six seats or do we continue with the constituencies with the additional seats. We we we're empowered er by these orders to set up the new constituencies, er they do not actually come into effect to enable the elections to be held upon them er until all the countries of the E E C have agreed the changes that are necessary to accommodate the new numbers that er they will be having, er so the act, the ninety three act, has a commencement hour within it. The commencement power er will not... be put into effect by the Home Secretary until he knows that the other countries have accommodated themselves to the new arrangements. Er, if they don't, the commencement... will not take place and we will continue on the existing boundaries, that would, and I'll give way to my honourable friend in a moment, that of course would create massive inconvenience, I see no er real reason why the other states er which have yet to ratify should not do so er but my honourable friend I think wanted to intervene with a further thought on this point so I give way to her. No, all I was... curious to know was, er the commencement yes, but I mean w could you take it right up to the sort of... the tapes until the day before the elections, or what would be the limit on that? Yes we could do so it would be a matter of judgement for the er er for the Home Secretary how far to take it and he would have to balance the likelihood of er other countries all ratifying and the inconvenience to those taking part in the election here er if er there is some uncertainty to the end and maybe having to revert to the current constituencies, er I hope... and expect that these matters will be settled in the next few weeks. I think the er the Home Secretary will be becoming increasingly concerned er if there isn't a a conclusion by mid April but I think maybe er honourable friends on... both sides of the house may want to onto when the last date should be. But there is no late date set into the legislation, only that... ratification when it is required means that from the first of the following month then the elections on the new constituency boundaries may take place under the new er European rules so that a decision is of course for an election in June er is in fact needed by the first of May. Very difficult after that. minister's well aware, this is causing considerable concern amongst the small percent of the population in Southend-on-Sea who are interested in European elections because the proposal is that instead of the links with Chelmsford, as we are at present, we're going to be linked with Thurrock, which of course is something different. Now what my constituents who are interested would like to know is, what actually does President Mitterrand want? What price are we going to have to pay the French to get this through, really don't know and I wonder if the minister could say, what exactly does do the French actually want before they agree to this? I think that er that is a question better directed towards the French, possibly my colleagues in the foreign office but my understanding is that the French assembly have indeed er approved ratification er but the French government i is declining er to append the appropriate signatures to it er er until agreement over the erm the parliament building at at Strasbourg is completed erm but my honourable friend I think in true... parliamentary form, asks questions to which he already feels he knows pretty well what the answer is and I suspect that my answer squares with what he knows already. I give way to the honourable gentlemen. on that point er would the er minister indicate whether or not the British government supports the attitude of the French government because of course the British government at the time of the Edinburgh summit were wholly in favour of the agreement to require the European parliament to meet both in Brussels and in Strasbourg and therefore I assume that there's an identity of interest between the British government and the French government on this question since the French government are maintaining their... er opposition to the er six extra seats simply because they want to see a new parliament building constructed in Strasbourg, is that a position that the British government supports? Er what the gov the British government would like to see is a resolution of these matters er our precise position er and attitude and er erm the assistance we can give in reaching conclusions is much more a matter er for ministers of the foreign office rather than myself so the honourable gentleman er invites me to tread in areas that don't belong to me and do not actually belong to these orders that are before us, no they're not, they're not really relevant to whether we approve or not the orders that are before us, er I'll give way in a moment but the honourable gentleman er for I believe wanted to intervene. Isn't there a precedent for all this muddle?... and opt out clause. Reced er the precedent for the situation that we are in now, yes indeed there is one and it was when er the Labour government was last in power in nineteen seventy eight, when we had er... er er to er set up the European constituencies we had a limited time to do it in and all the countries in Europe had to agree to bring forward the same kind of agreement and put it into effect at the same time. So I am telling the honourable gentleman yes indeed there there is a precedent. Er, I give way to my... er? getting more and more intrigued by this and I'd like to you a question to which I genuinely don't know the answer. I thought I heard him say that there was some discretion in this matter, if the French don't go ahead there is some discretion on the part of the British government, I thought it was automatic... that if the French don't ratify then we won't be able to ratify. Er the, the original question I had is whether if they don't go ahead er whether we would have to have new primary legislation to revert to the current Euro constituencies and I said no we wouldn't because there is a commencement date, there is a commencement date that er the er er Home Secretary would not put into effect until he was er quite certain that all the countries were on the start line and the the and and the new and the new constituencies er could actually come properly into effect and the six extra members would be elected. What I said was there was some discretion was in the hands of the Home Secretary when he brought forward that commencement date and what he would have in mind is of course the er er not merely what happens er er i er erm in the er er our colleague countries in the community on their... commencing er their changes, er but also in the kind of time we would actually need, political parties would need, candidates would need, to run an efficient election campaign here. Obviously we do not want to be in two minds up to the last day and he wouldn't do that but there is quite a a period of discretion where the time gets shorter and er he would have to make a judgement. I suspect that time would come somewhere in April. Yes. Erm... my honourable friend will remember that er under er part two of the Maastricht treaty erm titled to citizenship er article eight er not only are citizens of the union erm given certain powers but they're given rights conferred by the treaty which should be subject to the duties imposed thereby. Then, it states that every citizen of the union erm residing in a member state shall have the right to vote and to stand as a candidate at municipal elections in the member state in which he resides under the same conditions as nationals of that state and that the right shall, not may, but shall be exercised... er before the thirty first of December nineteen ninety four by the council acting unanimously on the proposal from the commission and after consulting the European parliament... which arrangements may provide the derogations where warranted by problems specific to a member state. Now my honourable friend was er indicating that perhaps some solution would need to be found to dealing with the problem of the intransigent French. Now all I'm suggesting to him is that there is here apparently a requirement laid down by the treaty which can't be aggregated by any one individual member state which could actually only be enforced by reference to a court of justice and what I'd like to ask is in the light of this very deep seated concern by the French about Strasbourg er and the European parliament building and the knowledge that this is of such importance to the er... of er voting and of representation in the community of the European elections. Is there an intention by our government through some means or another, to get this matter brought before the court so that we can have the matter er sorted out where it belongs. Hear, hear. Er I I think my honourable friend, if I followed him er is confusing two things, er because erm er what... we, he was beginning by talking about... er are what we will come to in the regulations er which is the right of citizens of other er member countries to vote in the country of which they're not a citizen to vote. Er, but that doesn't er erm er enable anybody to take any legal process against France or the French government er for not ratifying er those arrangements which would lead to six additional members elected from this country and indeed six from France. They're quite separate. But I will be getting on to these regulations now. Because erm... the er the purpose of these regulations which er my old friend has just eluded to and I s I I and I have myself, is to extend to the citizens of other member states of the European union who are resident here, the right to vote and to stand as a candidate in the elections to the European parliament. Our current legislation relating to elections restricts the right to vote and to be to British and other commonwealth citizens and citizens of the Irish republic. But the treaty on European union signed at Maastricht gave voting and candidacy rights to citizens of the union who live in a member state without being a national of that state. Article eight B two of the treaty related to elections to the European parliament which is the subject of the draft regulations presented here. The draft regulations extend these electoral rights... to citizens of the other member states of the European union... who are resident here by making a number of technical amendments to existing legislation. The overall aim of these draft regulations is therefore very simple... but the regulations themselves are somewhat long and complex as those who've tried to read them will have noticed. The reason for this length and complexity is that er electoral legislation very rightly goes into often minute details of prescription and practice. This level of prescription is valuable in safeguarding electoral procedures from ambiguity but it does mean that even simple changes require complicated amendments to a great many... legislative minutiae. This accounts for the complexity of the document before the house. The general principal of article eight B two of the Maastricht treaty is that non-national residents in member state should be treated for electoral purposes in the same way as the nationals of that state. The draft regulations seek to achieve that equality of treatment in practice and we are not introducing of our own accord any requirements on citizens of other member states which we do not require of our own citizens. To register to vote for example, a union citizen must have been resident in Great Britain on the qualifying date of the tenth of October or fifteenth of September for Northern Ireland in exactly the same way as British or other commonwealth citizens... and citizens of other member states who wish to be candidates of the elections for the European parliament must conform to the same nomination procedures as candidates have hitherto. But we're placing one or two small differences to procedure on union citizens directly stemming from the provisions of the E E C directive implementing in article eight B two. In mentioning the directive er can I er pause very briefly er Mr Deputy Speaker to apologise to the house that this document was not made available at the draft stage er an unfortunate combination of human error and several failures of communications meant that the select committee was deprived of the opportunity to consider the directive at its draft stage, er I've noticed the select committee's report which has been put in the vote office in the usual way and acknowledge the government did not meet its scrutiny obligations with regard to this document in the normal means. I can only repeat here, the apologies which have been made outside the house.... As I said, the draft regulations impose on union citizens a few minor procedural changes from those we require of our own citizens. The main difference from our normal arrangements is that union citizens will have to apply to register to vote and will have to do so to their local electoral registration officer by the twenty ninth of March. We will not be placing a duty on electoral registration officers to seek out non-British or Irish citizens for registration. A further small difference is that we will be requiring intending voters and candidates to supply information about their electoral rights in their home member state. Member states will be exchanging information on non-national electors and candidates on the basis of the information provided with the aim of preventing double voting or candidacy and to enforce concurrently disqualifications imposed by a home member state. This requirement stems from the directive... who apply the provisions of the treaty and is designed to meet the concerns of some other member states. As I've said, these regulations are apparently complex but merely affect a simple extension of rights to vote and candidacy in conformity with our treaty obligations and I hope that the house will approve these too. Question is as on the order paper, Mr Graham Allett. [Riddock:] Er Mr Deputy Speaker I'm glad er at last after some further delay that members of this house have the opportunity to discuss the important matter of the boundaries on which the European elections will be fought on June the ninth and the extension to the vote to E C citizens in the U K for those elections. [cough]... Er, the European project goes on and for many of the newer generations in this place, it's not longer an article of faith er but a part of the political landscape that has to be dealt with on merit and it's all the more ludicrous therefore Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Conservatives' internal divisions over Maastricht have led to a situation where candidates for the ever more important European elections are only now being selected in certain seats, just fourteen weeks before the election. Given the size of the European constituencies, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for some candidates to become widely known and for an informed choice to be made. As we argued throughout the proceedings of the European parliamentary elections bill, the Conservatives are entirely responsible for the fact that this process of drawing up the new European boundaries had to be compressed into such a short time. They are also responsible for the fact that the boundaries were drawn up, not by the independent boundary commission, but by the new European parliamentary constituencies committee. It took from the Edinburgh summit in December nineteen ninety two, when the current Prime Minister first announced the government's intention to legislate on this issue, until the thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three before the European parliamentary elections bill had its first reading. Now we all know that the reason for this inordinate six month delay was that the government couldn't be sure of carrying a vote on anything European in the face of hostility from its Maastricht rebels, those the Prime Minister famously dubbed the illegitimate ones. I understand that it is possible, even at this late stage, that the review itself could be overturned by the refusal of France to agree the new allocation of seats and we've already had an exchange on that, Mr Deputy Speaker, which indicates that whatever we decide today might actually be overthrown and overturned completely by the inability of the French to ratify their part of the arrangement, er the minister referred to it as a massive inconvenience, I suggest that if we have to resort to going back to the old boundaries to fight these elections and indeed the problems that that will cause for the selection of candidates as well, that that will be one of the greatest understatements that even this house has heard. I think colleagues on this side will seek to press the minister even further on the latest developments in France and indeed what influence we can have to make sure that if we pass these orders today, they do become the basis of the European elections.... Mr Deputy Speaker we on this side of the house believed then, as the bill went through committee and still believe today, that there was time had the government been more efficient in the organisation of its parliamentary business, for proper public inquiries to have been held. As we know, the organisation of business er isn't their strong point at the moment, whether its been run ragged by their own rebels or... clumsily breaking down the usual channels, seems our non-cooperation policy is merely an extension of the one that's been working so effectively inside the Conservative party under the present Prime Minister. Amidst all that confusion, I think it is important that the procedures used in this parliamentary review should never be deployed as a precedent for future boundary revision, for either Strasbourg or Westminster. We must be clear [clears throat] that this... occasion must be the exception and not the rule. On this side of the house... we believe that if people are to have confidence in our democratic system then they need to be sure that the electoral boundaries on which our system operates, are beyond reproach. I stated when the bill came before the house that I did not believe that the Home Secretary intended to fiddle the boundaries, some felt I was being a little generous to the Home Secretary, but in his case er we should always be prepared to understand a little more and condemn a little less. It was always our contention that justice should not only be done but that justice should be seen to be done by the due process of the public inquiry.... This process was one... that we'd enjoyed the public inquiry process for over fifty years [clears throat] and it would be most helpful if the minister at some point in his er later remarks perhaps could take this opportunity to tell the house that the Conservatives do not intend to side step the public inquiry stage of any future boundary proposals, European or... I'd be glad to give up. [speaker001:] boundary changes that we would like to have the full panoply of... o o of inquiry a as the honourable gentleman knows, the the timetable was short here and what we had to do was to follow the model, er that had been provided by the last Labour government in seventy eight when it had a similarly tight timetable, took a similarly er er period, similarly short period of time er for the reviews and where erm the normal enquiries had to be dispensed with. They were not, they were not dispensed with, well one could look back in seventy eight and say retrospectively how that process could have been started considerably earlier, er the honourable gentleman knows perfectly well that er as the Maastricht bill was winding its way through here it wasn't really practical to to run this but indeed the processes were started before the governing legislation was on the statute book and I quite understand why honourable gentlemen opposite wish to make their party points, particularly those... particularly those who were not in the house in seventy eight which er doesn't I think apply to the honourable gentleman from... from Birmingham, when he knows perfectly well that the same kind of machinery is used now was used then and it was used as fairly and as honestly and as completely impartially as the time allowed. I'm more concerned about erm future possibilities, not least the possibility that the, if we fight the next European election under first past the post system then of course there will need to be a further set of boundary changes in the very near future arising from the parliamentary boundary commission proposals and I hope... that again that the minister will take the change in [clears throat] in his remarks a little later, to assure the house that this was, because of the time constraints and there are reasons for that that I'll come to, but because of the time constraints that this was in fact just a one off proposal... because its sad that party political considerations that the minister has eluded to, the difficulties that Conservative party had over the Maastricht bill, caused our boundary procedures to be tampered with at all in the U K. At the same time... as we're seeing er a welcome expansion of democratic forms in the rest of the world in... erm Eastern and central... er Europe, in South Africa for instance we see the erosion of these forms in the United Kingdom. We, in this country and indeed in this house, can be very deeply complacent when indeed we should be ever vigilant about our democracy and the very precious forms that it takes of which one was the er public inquiry stage of the erm boundary commission procedures. Public inquires... certainly. been rather unfair to the Conservative party over their attitudes to Maastricht. Would you accept as a Euro enthusiast, that the opinion poll published by the commission three weeks ago, showed that the Labour party in their tepid support for Maastricht, were wholly out of line with the average Labour voter and in fact it shows quite clearly the majority of people in Britain, not only were opposed to Maastricht, they were also opposed to the idea that the E C was a good idea at all. . I feel er something of a stranger walking in on the Maastricht reunion er annual dinner er at the er... I have to say that erm I er wouldn't wish to cross swords with the honourable gentleman on the detail of the Maastricht bill but certainly... but certainly I 'ave to say that for many people and maybe even some people on this own side who may be prepared to admit it, the... false divide between Euro sceptics and Euro fanatics is one that doesn't appeal to the new generations of members and I suspect on both sides of the house, we are in our considered view in Europe and we need to make the best of it and treat Europe on its merits rather than re-live the battles of the er late seventies and early eighties. The... public inquiry process within the boundary er commission procedures is... certainly not er a declaration, it has a very important function. In the previous round of European parliamentary proposals there were ten European boundary enquiries and five of these overturned provisional recommendations as a result of listening to people at public inquiry. Now the Home Secretary admitted in the committee stage on the floor of the house that to have had the public inquiry stage would have added seven weeks to the boundary process. This Mr Deputy Speaker, could easily have been accommodation had the bill been brought to the house just seven weeks earlier than it actually was brought to the house, seven weeks weren't the problem. The problem was the wasted thirty two weeks between the Edinburgh summit and the introduction of the bill, a delay caused entirely... for party political reasons, the Conservative splits over Europe in general and over Maastricht in particular. I'll be pleased to give way. I, don't go, he knows the answer to this question maybe the Home Office will be able to provide with it. How many E C nationals are presently registered then to vote in this forthcoming election? At the moment there are no... at the moment there are no nationals registered and I'll I will come to this later, er potentially I understand there are some four hundred thousand who could register. Erm, Mr Deputy Speaker, we on this side of the house look forward with confidence to the nineteen ninety four European elections whatever boundaries they take place on. In nineteen eighty nine, at the last European elections, Labour took forty five seats to the Conservatives thirty two and we are looking forward to the elections in June when the party opposite, ridden by divisions and disagreements, will suffer further loses and Labour, we hope, will make further gains. We all know that there's a fundamental divide within the Conservative party which no amount of packaging can camouflage, although the packing last time round perhaps er wasn't quite as good as it could have been. Maybe this time they'll be a rather more serious effort in the European elections given that the er potential for influencing the outcome of the next leadership contest also lies in the balance there. In Europe itself the Conservative M E Ps are led by Sir Christopher Prout... Sir Christopher Prout is the vice president of the European Peoples Party... and they sit... the... the... the... a debate may no doubt take place later on whether he's the vice chairman or vice president. My information, until corrected, is that he is the vice president of the European Peoples Party and... it's a rather ambivalent relationship the er Conservatives have with the European peoples party. They sit with the European peoples party in parliament. They speak on the European peoples party membership of committees, that is the only way in which they can find a voice in committees and they take their share of European peoples party's funding from the European... peoples party. Now... there seems to be a very close relationship between... the European peoples party and the Conservative party, if only on that circumstantial basis. Now the European peoples party manifesto... calls for a single currency,... a central bank,... the incorporation of the social chapter... a common immigration policy... and a constitution for the whole of Europe. All of which have been greeted by... members opposite with great acclaim. Things obviously very close to the hearts of members on the benches opposite. I can only wonder if it will bear very much relationship to the manifesto finally produced by the Conservative party before the next European election. I'm very grateful to the honoured, honourable gentleman. I'm certain that he would not like to finish his speech bef before mentioning the relationship of the Labour party with the socialist parties in Europe... and their own manifesto. Oh what a clever boy. And... I certainly wouldn't dream of finishing my speech without er some substantial mentions of the er very close relationship that we are proud to tell people about.... Very close relationship... between. Order. Before the honourable gentleman goes any further it would be advantage really to get back to the boundaries... Mr Graham G. [Winnick:] I'll... resist the temptation er Mr Deputy Speaker to to follow members opposite in er what could have been a very interesting line of debate. [speaker001:] Erm, has the honourable gentleman noted that er on the ninth of February, it's only a few days ago, the European parliament itself erm through its rapporteur Mr Fernand Herman er the Christian Democrats, but also of course with er socialists from the... er European parliament, endorsed a constitution er which contains even worse things than the European peoples party's manifesto. Is he and his party, going to repudiate these. Order, my just recent remarks it would apply to the honourable gentleman, just in reply to the honourable gentleman on the front bench, Mr Graham Allett. [Riddock:] Erm I think the bad news for the honourable member from Stafford is that er Messier Herman is in fact a member of the European peoples party and no doubt no the honourable member... with great respect, said that he was a Christian democrat and he's also a member of the European Peoples party and therefore I hope that the honourable member for Stafford will take that up with his Conservative colleagues, who are very closely connected to the European peoples party, because I hopefully have made clear earlier in my remarks. I'd be very glad to give way to the honourable lady. [speaker001:] is the honourable member aware that whereas all the Conservatives voted against the Herman report, the Labour party, the socialists er er out there on the that side, voted for it. [Riddock:] I'm very grateful for that point of information from the honourable lady. [speaker001:] Er Mr Deputy Speaker it's also... quite important that I make clear the Labour party's position in respect to the article which calls for uniform electoral procedures to be set up for elections to the European parliament. Members of this house will recall that this matter was raised er in relation to an amendment er at committee stage... and we argued during the committee stage of the bill that it was not feasible for an entirely new electoral system to be set up for the European elections in June nineteen ninety four... and that it was er silly to apply a different system for the additional six seats to that applying to the other eighty one. However we also made it clear that as one part of Labour's wider democratic agenda, that we were sympathetic to looking at a plurality of electoral systems and that this might include legislating for a regional list system of proportional representation for future European elections. As I stated in the house during the debate on the seventh of er July, the plant commission established by the Labour party to look into electoral systems proposed as one of its many recommendations, a system of proportional representation, the regional list system for the European parliament. Its report said, such a system could be introduced by an incoming Labour government for the nineteen ninety nine elections at the earliest. That report was sent to our national executive committee and on May the nineteenth the leader of the Labour party stated and I quote, the plant committee concludes that different elected bodies can be chosen by different electoral systems, that is the view which I share and I support the proposals made both for a reformed second chamber and the European parliament. The proposal on the European parliament sensibly recommends cons consistency of voting for the one election that we share with other members of the European community. Mr Deputy Speaker that strong sympathy expressed at the time of the last debate on these matters was approved overwhelmingly by the Labour party conference last October and I state that for the record less there be any misunderstanding about our position on the issue of voting systems. Hear, hear. It also illustrates the fact that the Conservative government are yet again... lagging behind even the right wing and Christian democratic parties in Europe and are utterly isolated in their unwillingness to contemplate electoral change of any kind. Mr Deputy Speaker the European parliamentary constituency committees... have now made their recommendations. We on this side of the house, have a number of specific dis disagreements about the er way in which specific boundaries have been drawn... in addition members will remember our strong call for an additional Scottish seat. Nevertheless we are generally satisfied that both committees, that's the English and the Welsh committees, have done a thorough job and on behalf of my colleagues I would certainly like to pay tribute to those who served on those committees who I believe discharged their responsibilities with great professionalism in circumstances made unnecessarily difficult by ministerial dithering and delay. Mr Deputy Speaker we live in dark days for our democracy. Days of executive decree,... Henry the eighth clauses and bills being agreed without proper parliamentary debate. I suppose in that context we should be grateful that ministers have not used the power that they have... to modify the recommendations of the boundary committees. It is a sad day when we are grateful for not being abused in this house, but it's about all we have to be thankful for until this wretched system is altered, root and branch. Hear, hear, hear. If I can... move onto the... final of the orders, the erm enfranchisement of E C citizens resident in the U K.... We on this side of the house welcome the change which allows E C citizens resident in the U K... to vote in the European elections. These regulations which will give effect at the European council directive of December the sixth... will of course alter the long standing position in the U K whereby only British and Commonwealth citizens and citizens of the Republic of Ireland are entitled to vote in European parliamentary elections. It is a sensible and desirable change... welcome on this side of the house... and I understand, and the minister may correct me if I'm wrong, but the order relating to local government elections and E C citizens er will be before the house before the end of nineteen ninety four. We on this side of the house... believe that this extension of the franchise to E C citizens resident in Britain... is a clear affirmation of our practical commitment to greater European cooperation... and rights that apply to all European citizens. Consequently we've been greatly concerned by the government's delay in bringing forward this legislation which was adopted in draft on the twenty third of June nineteen ninety three and became a council directive on the sixth of December nineteen ninety three. It's indicative of this government's approach to all matters European. That every obligation of the Maastricht treaty appears to be discharged grudgingly... and after unnecessary delay. Often the wheels appear to grind exceeding slow, particularly where democratic change is concerned. It was in nineteen seventy seven that the European parliament... first passed a resolution on voting rights in European elections. I hope that many of those pioneers of that time... feel a sense of satisfaction this evening, seeing this bill and these orders going through. It may interest them... that within the last few months the European parliament has agreed to press for a bill of rights for the citizens of Europe and for a written constitution for Europe. Who knows how quickly that may come to fruition. The principals underlying this change are relatively straightforward, as the minister's already er eluded, article eight of the treaty on European union passed last year, entitled citizenship of the union, guarantees the right to move and reside freely within the territory of member states. I'd be pleased to give way. Thank you honourable gentleman. Isn't it also true that the... European union or community or whatever you like to call it, is also intending to introduce a compulsory identity card in the form of a smart card carrying details of the citizen's health, but which would have ample room to put all sorts of other things on. There are no proposals... there are no prop. A list of recommendations. When he introduced the report in the house, my right honourable friend, the member for Kingston upon Thames made is clear that he accepted them all and that the government was committed to carrying them out. In a subsequent debate on the report on the sixth of November nineteen ninety two, I spelt out in some detail how the government intended to fulfil that commitment and one of the regulations before the house today represents the culmination of our actions to give effect to one of Sir Thomas er Bingham's recommendations that the existing right in section forty seven of the banking act nineteen eighty seven, for auditors to report relevant information to the bank of England should become a statutory duty.... As honourable members will recall, Sir Thomas was persuaded to this view... by in part a conclusion of the treasurer and civil service select committee, that although the existing permissive nature of section forty seven had worked well it seems desirable in his words, to tighten the wording of the act so that there can be no doubt, either from the point of view of the auditor, his client or the regulator, as to the auditor's duty to report. In announcing the government's intention I also made it clear that my right honourable friend had decided that a similar duty should be introduced for auditors of building societies and financial service companies and that my right honourable friend the president of the board of trade would want the approach extended er to the, this approach extended to the auditors of insurance companies. Hence the four statutory instruments which are before us today. In his speech er in that debate the honourable member for Edinburgh central and the... bench er in his place today, er welcomed the government's acceptance of Sir Thomas' and the select committee's recommendation and agreed er that it was in his words, important that the statutory duty of auditors ought to be clear so that er to use his colourful phrase, if whistles are to be blown they're to be blown without doubt. Well since that debate the government has taken the decision to introduce the duty into a fifth regulated sector... friendly societies and a negative resolution order under the friendly societies act nineteen ninety two is also is also prop be N reasons for taking action across this wide front Madam Deputy Speaker, first and most important, the relevant provisions in the various acts are very similar and if we are to bolster the arrangements in relation to banks then we should do the same for other sectors entrusted with the public's investments. All with ensuring their daily risks. It would be difficult for me or for any other minister to have to defend leaving things unchanged in these other areas if the affect of having done so was subsequently to lead to a case of fraud in an investment firm, building society or insurance company which the existence of the duty would have helped to prevent. I most grateful to the minister for giving way and it's good to see the government er at last acknowledging the justice of the amendments to do exactly what we're proposing now that we put in... to most of the committees like the... building societies c c c b b bill a and like the banking bill when they were discussing the nineteen eighties but Lord Justice Bingham also recommended er and I quote, the determination of the correct relationship between client, auditor and supervisor raises an issue of policy more appropriate for decision making by parliament than by the bank and the accounting profession. Why in the view of that clear recommendation that parliament should decide these matters, has he left the regulation of that duty to the auditing practices board, a non-statutory body? Well the honourable gentleman for Great Brimsea is quite right to say that these matters... er had some consideration given to them during the passage of the... the legislation er but it is also true to say that er er th in the Bingham report there was a broad acceptance that the present s system of supervision of banks should continue. Now with regard to auditors in particular, er he will know because he's had some correspondence with me er on this particular subject, it is the view of the government that the er recognised professional body, the Institute of Chartered Accounts in England and Wales, is best placed as a professional body, to supervise er this sector er an argument can be mounted and no doubt he may seek to use this debate to do just that, to say that er this should be the subject of some direct er rule from Whitehall. But that is neither the history nor the practice of our professional system, not just er for accountants but for the legal system as well and I think it has stood the test of time, er he will know that there has been er there is a procedure for the joint disciplinaries scheme er which enables the er institute to investigate whether there has been compliance by member firms with the standards promulgated er with er er by the er er auditing practices board and that seems to me to be the er right way forward. But no doubt we can return to these matters if the honourable gentleman raises them further in the course of the debate. Er, madam deputy speaker erm er... having determined the scope of the duty, er the government er published a consultation document at the beginning of March at last year. This made it clear that it was not the governments objective to alter fundamentally the red relationship between auditor and client, nor were we looking to increase the costs of audit. Our object was the same as Sir Thomas Bingham's, namely to clarify and strengthen the position of the auditor, not to change it. So the government held back from imposing a duty on auditors to seek out fraud, malpractice and wrong doing. This would have meant straying too far from the auditor's traditional role. The responses we received to the consultation document were considered carefully and my officials discussed the issues raised with the auditing practices board and with other interested parties in the regulated sectors. Some comments could be dealt with readily by changes to the draft statutory instruments but others were not so easy to resolve as they raise more fundamental questions and in these cases my officials were able to explore with the auditing practices board, whether issues could be more easily addressed in the statement of auditing standards... which is being developed to accompany the legislation than in the statutory instruments themselves. I'd like if I may, to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the er helpful, cooperative attitude that the auditing practices board displayed in what were often long and very complex discussions and to thank them for the clear and helpful statement with which they shortly er plan to issue er to er accompany these order and to bring them into practical effect. for the convenience of the house I'd be most grateful if he could tell us, is this board a quango that he's referred to? Is it one of the new quangos or is it a S F R A, a self financing regulatory authority that has powers to issues and regulations and charge people for the job that it then does. I think the house would like to know whether it's a S F R A or quango? [LAUGHTER] I I I'm... well I'm not entirely familiar with such jargon, I think it falls within the latter rather than the former definition. It is not that case that er er the auditing practices board is a body set up by the statute. But it is certainly er a body which is er recognised as responsible and indeed in er tax law and in various other ways er its promulgations and the standards that it sets are are generally regarded as acceptable but these matters of course are kept under review.... Er Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the... difficulties addressed during the consultation exercise was that neither the term auditor, nor the phrase in his capacity as auditor, were defined in the banking statutory instrument or in the banking act itself and the government's mindful of the need to clarify who it is who will be placed under a duty by the statutory instruments and in which circumstances the duty will apply and while this is ultimately a question for the courts, we take the view that the duty clearly covers any auditor of a bank appointed under U K company law. That is any auditor of an authorised institution incorporated in the U K. It also covers auditors of authorised institutions whose place of incorporation is outside the... European community and who's initial authorisation has been granted by another regulator, even though such auditors may be appointed under a foreign law. The government also takes the view that the duty applies to U K accountants acting as agents of the appointed foreign auditors. As for the circumstances in which an auditor might come under a duty to report, the banking act as well as the financial services act and the insurance companies act, uses, use the phrase in his capacity as auditor, here again we have no powers to clarify this on the face of the regulations. If any greater certainty could be given... then it could be done only by an unacceptable narrowing of the duty to restrict it to a part of the auditors responsibilities and we're also concerned that to do so could have potentially wide ranging implications for the scope of auditor's functions more generally. It may however be... helpful madam speaker, er Madam Deputy Speaker, if I seek to clarify er when an individual auditor is operating in his capacity as such and whether a partner in an auditing practice who is not involved in audin er in auditing the regulated institutions is deemed nevertheless to be operating in his capacity as auditor. In our view it's reasonable to expect an individual who is conducting an audit, to consider information relevant to an audit which is obtained in the course of other work for the same client. It seems realistic to expect the auditor to take such information into account in his review of the audit... and the person acting as auditor also needs to be aware of other non-audit work on his client that partners in his firm may be doing such as for example tax work and they in turn should consider whether any information that may arise from their work is relevant to the conduct of the audit and where it is, they should also consider whether it is relevant to the duty to report to the regulator, the partner carrying out the audit should also if possible, discuss it with his client. In the case of information relating to er say client A which is... obtained by the auditor while auditing client B, the auditor ought as a matter of sound practice normally to use the information to make further enquiries for the purpose of the audit of A. These interpretations have been set out more fully in the statement of auditing standards and the professional guidance issued by the auditing practices board that will accompany this legislation... and as matters of courtesy to the house er Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask that a copy of that be placed in the library. Once this extensive consultation process was over the government circulated amended versions of the draft statutory instruments for a second more limited round... before setting them in their final form. In producing these drafts we bore firmly in mind the fact that if this duty on auditors is to be effective then it's vital that the auditors can continue to rely on the trust of their clients. So we've tried to set the duty at a level... which makes it clear to those who seek to commit financial crime that they're more likely to be caught but which does not impose additional reporting burdens or costs on those who conduct their business honestly and that is a most important balance to strike. Hear, hear. I I'm very grateful to the minister for... [LAUGHTER] his patience [] but... er on the other hand it could be argued that it's no use having a duty to report fraud unless you also have a duty to detect fraud. The auditing profession er argues, and I must say the audit practice board's er... er proposals are very, for very passive auditing, the audit profession argues that it's difficult to detect fraud but on the other hand er the local government er act er local government finance act of nineteen eighty two requires local authority auditors to have er er er a duty to search for unlawful acts and report on them. Now if that's good for the local authority goose, why isn't it good for the banking gander when so much more money is involved. Well the honourable gentleman as always makes er more than a debating point, I think he makes a... serious point which er deserves to be answered, erm it is not, if I can put it this way, the intention of these orders... er to turn auditors into... er snoopers or narks... er and to do so I think runs some very serious risks, not only of reducing and undermining the relationship between auditors and their clients, not only of imposing very substantial additional cost burdens on auditors which will have to be borne by companies and ultimately their clients, but also there... has an example he's given I think to be some difference, put it no more than that between public money and private money, even though I acknowledge that were talking here... about the trusteeship in some cases of of er d er public deposits and funds. So I think there are difficulties and I might er just finally add that were we to go along the lines he mentioned, we would of course need primary er legislation because we couldn't introduce in orders under the relevant legislation this, so it would have to be a matter for another day, were we to er consider that seriously, but it is not the intention of the government. to all er o o on both sides, erm... there's one point he made which is terrible important which is that the... costs of this statutory instrument and all the guidelines and rules and regulations and orders that flow from it, will not impact onto small b business because that was the key to the deregulation bill and I wonder whether the deregulation unit has looked at this and whether it is satisfied it's not gonna be an additional cost onto the running of small enterprise. Well my, my honourable friend is is a prime champion of small businesses in this house and he raises a very important point er, the answer is yes it has been considered er by er er those concerned with deregulation. In fact my honourable friend, the parliamentary under secretary of state for the department of trade and industry who's responsible for deregulation is also the sponsoring minister for one of these orders, namely the one on the insurance companies, and secondly our intention is that the cost here should be negligible, or nil... er in that they don't go beyond er what is already required or or possible by way of a right to report, here we're imposing a duty to report. That itself shouldn't er impose er any greater cost on auditors, but it should, and this is the crucial point I think, it should bolster the ability of auditors... to insist that their client companies er... are forthcoming and open and where necessary correct if they can... er problems which might otherwise bring their authorised status er into question and therefore it is a welcome enhancement of the law, it toughens up the law without imp imposing the costs about which he's rightly concerned. Madam... deputy speaker, before I sit down I should... also just mention that there is a a European dimension to this issue... as in November nineteen ninety two the... Vice President of the E C commission, Sir Leon Britton, sketched out some general proposals for community legislation in response to the B C C I affair. These proposals were subsequently turned into a commissioned proposal for a directive. One element of which would be to require member states to impose a duty on auditors of financial undertakings, to report breaches of laws or regulations or other adverse circumstances to supervisors. As the house will know, following discussions in Brussels, political agreement has been reached in the council on the amendment draft directive which, if implemented in its present form, would impose on auditors a slightly wider duty to report than that contained in the regulations we're currently debating. However the proposed European directive has a number of further hurdles to be negotiated before it can be finalised and even when it is it's unlikely to be implemented before nineteen ninety six. Even though some minor changes may subsequently be necessary in order to conform with the directive, the government doesn't want to risk a further period of delay before bringing these necessary measures into effect. Given the widespread support on both sides of the house... for Sir Thomas' recommendations, the government believes that we should now act promptly to pass these changes into law. Can I conclude Madam Deputy Speaker, once again, by expressing my gratitude to the auditing practices board and the many other professional bodies who've been involved in considering this legislation. We believe that these measures will greatly strengthen and clarify the position of the auditor and represent an important step forward in the fight against financial wrong doing. I commend them to the house. [Mead:] The question is in the terms set out on the order paper. Mr Alistair Darling. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Gilfore:] Madam Deputy Speaker. As the minister said these orders impose a new statutory duty on auditors and as he quite rightly reminded us, it is something that er we... welcomed when we held the debate on the Bingham report in November nineteen ninety two, some fifteen months ago, er, I think it is fair to say that whilst we welcomed that recommendation from Bingham, we didn't say that was all that was required and it is certainly our view that whilst these orders are very welcome, they are only a start in the battle against detecting fraud and other crimes of dishonesty.... Action was promised as the minister said, in October nineteen ninety two by the former chancellor when the Bingham report was published, but I believe that these proposals are under the bear minimum requested by Bingham... and they hardly live... up er to the er minister's announcement at the beginning of his speech. Indeed they were only introduced after much discussion and some opposition from the auditing industry. Now whilst the minister quite understandable pays tribute er to those who spent some considerable time and effort in getting the practice notes right and responding to the government's proposals, it is fair to say that there are many, not just in the auditing industry, but those who represent the companies who are audited who have expressed a number of concerns, a minister has mentioned some, the relations with the client for example. Indeed that is something that bears closer examination because there are many people who believe that the relationship between a client and an auditor can be too close and that there ought to be a respectable distance between them. There is the question of professional indemnity which I shall return to shortly because I think it might be helpful if the minister were to say something about that. But Madam Deputy Speaker, these order don't pay any attention to a number of matters in what I would regard as the public interest and whilst the minister as I say, has quite rightly paid tribute to professional organisations involved in this process, we must never forget that we're here to represent the public interest and not just... er er specific professional interests that may be relevant in each case and indeed in the light of what has happened in this field of enforcement er over the last two years, the minister must be aware that the public are requiring higher standards of commercial probity. I believe the government should have conducted a proper and wide review into the role and duty of auditors, not just in the area covered by these orders, but also throughout the whole of industry. I understand the various accou er professional bodies in the accountancy industry are in fact doing that but I think the government should also do that because it is not just the probity of financial institutions we are concerned about, it is also er the auditing of other commercial concerns... and it seems to be that in this case the public interest has taken second place to the government's wish to do as little as possible, yet again the minister said in the debate that if we were to do anything further in response to a question put by my honourable friend the member for Grimsby, it would need legislation, primary legislation. So what. That's what this house is here for, it is here to introduce primary legislation if we need it and in my view we do need it in this area and it is it's high time the government recognised that and should not be afraid t t t to take action simply because primary legislation is required. The government has for example, nothing to say about a central enforcement body which is part and parcel of what I believe should be a proper and focused attack against crimes of dishonesty er in in er financial institutions in this country. The government has said nothing about the need to end the fiction of self regulation and to replace it with an efficient and effective and cheaper direct regulation. But Madam Speaker there are a number of questions specifically related to these orders that we need to address. The first one is what exactly the duty is so far as the auditor is concerned. I notice that the phraseology adopted in each of the orders is different. If we look at the insurance order and the one relating to building societies, it is quite clear there that the auditor has to be acting in his capacity o er as auditor. Now the minister er er when in his speech earlier, er made the point that he thought that the proper interpretation in respect of all of these orders was a fairly wide one. If that is the case... why is it that the order relating to insurance and building society er building societies, specifically makes the point that the auditor must be working erm in his capacity as such... whereas the orders on banking and financial services er it may be implicit the er the auditor is working er in his or her capacity as such er but it is not explicitly stated because the phraseology is different. But of course the minister in his speech earlier went far wider than that... er he seemed to imply that it wasn't just er th er duty on the accountant er acting in capa his capacity as an auditor but er the the accountant would have the same duty if acting as an accountant, tax advisor or indeed in any other capacity. Now that is to paint a far wider duty than I had been er er er thought and indeed er those who follow these matters have suggested that's rather wider than the than the er secondary legislation here before us actually provides for. Clearly it will be of crucial importance in any er court proceedings because the court will have to decide whether or not an auditor was in breech of his or her duty having regard to what is on the face of the statute. Now I know erm... following a fairly recent er er er case in the house of lords that the courts are er entitled to rely on what ministers say in debate but perhaps the minister could er spell out a little bit more clearly the apparent discrepancy between what he said in his speech and what is on the face of these orders and indeed why it is that the orders in r relation to banking and financial services, adopts a different phraseology er to that used in the orders relating to insurance and building societies. I know it could be something to do with regime er banks of course are supervised by the Bank of England at the moment and er the financial services er regime is supervised by the S I B and it could be that is the reason why it is not explicitly stated er that the accountant has to be acting in his capacity as erm... as auditor. But I do think the minister er should er b be quite clear about that point er because er it may be of crucial importance, not just to the industry, er but also to the public interest who will want to know what the position is so far as er er these matters are concerned. And indeed er the Association of er Chartered er... er the Chartered Association of Certified Accountants wrote to me recently er... asking exactly what the position is and I quote from the letter, they say firms of accountants are quite likely to be engaged by the same client to perform services other than a statutory audit and then they go on to list financial planning and so on. Now if the minister is right and a partner in the firm or indeed an assistant in the firm a acting as a tax advisor or financial planner, might come across something er tha that er if er he were acting as auditor he would be bound to report. Now as I understand it the minister's position is that he be bound to refer that matter to the partner responsible for audit and that partner er would then be put on notice that er he ought to report it to the relevant authority. Now if that is correct perhaps a minister could say so and clear in explicit terms... er because it is very, very important because increasingly er a number of firms act in er in er in in both capacities and indeed for the large firms I think many of us are aware of the difficulty that's now arising and there are only half a dozen very large accountancy firms that are capable of providing accounting and auditing services in this country and indeed most of them are beneficiaries of this government's largesse in awarding public service contracts er to a surprising degree and so the government will be well aware of the problem. [speaker001:] to my honourable friend because not only are these er large er particularly the big six er... centres of accountancy power pretty well uncontrolled, they dominate the institutions that are meant to regulate them... er but when it comes to international... er affairs they don't exchange information with each other. When the senate came to enquire... er into the audit performance of Price Waterhouse... er the British partners of Price Waterhouse claimed that they were an entirely separate organisation, have no obligation to give information to the er t to the senate and nothing was effectively passed on, er so an enquiry was conducted there without our partners, er Price Waterhouse's partners in this country, cooperating in any way. What my, my honourable friend raises a very interesting point because er when I we studied er the law relating to partnerships one of the basic er er principals was the personal relationship between partners and I'm bound to say that when one looks at the headed notepaper of these big multi national accountancy firms sometimes the names of which cover most of the letter and there's very little room in fact left er for the message. Er one wonders how on earth they speak to each other, or if indeed they even know who each other is or where their offices are and there isn't that personal relationship that one might expect to find in the normal concept of a legal firm and indeed er without... clearly we go to off the point somewhat to have a discussion as to whether or not er a partnership is a suitable legal entity for these people to trade under. It does raise a very important matter because in the B C C I inquiry, it was quite obvious er that parts of Price Waterhouse weren't fully aware of what other parts of Pri Price Waterhouse were doing and indeed worse than that and in fairness to Price Waterhouse, some of the regulators in different parts of the world didn't know what each other w w were doing and the only people that did know what was happening were the principals behind B C C I who exploited that situation.... So clearly that is something that er er e i i is a matter for the accountancy profession in some way er but of course we've got the problem as well then that er er Price Waterhouse operating in the United States presumably er comes within the jurisdiction of Price Wate the accountancy profession in the United States and it is something that the government is going to have address itself to. It is already accepted in money laundering for example, that er the f fraud is an international crime and it would be interesting to hear er what steps the minister is proposing to take to have a look at the problem that undoubtedly was er raised in the B C C I report. But... before I leave this particular part of my criticism er perhaps er in case the minister er er doesn't accept what I'm saying I could quote er the words of the right honourable gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade er who writing before he was a President er in his book where there's a will he said accountancy firms ought I believe, the debarred from doing any other work for a company for which they act as auditors and in a number of other countries there are laws... which circumscribe auditors in this way and prevent to prevent any possible conflict of interest. This discipline should be extended across the publicly quoted private sector. Now that was certainly the views of the President of the Board of Trade before er he er returned to the cabinet er at another time and I'm not sure if he's departed from these views but I think they're worthy of some weight. I understand there are problems er but as a general principle it does seem to me that it's something that needs to be looked at... and the minister has said that a lot of these matters will be dealt with by a statement of practice and er he was asked by the honourable gentleman, the member for South Hams I think, er er er what the status of er these people were. Well er to me it doesn't matter s er that much, what I'm concerned about is that this is a matter of public interest, it shouldn't just be a matter of professional interest and it's for these reasons I think the government should take a rather more lively interest er than perhaps it does. There's a whole question of rotation of auditors. That is something that has been canvassed on many, many occasions. Is it wise to have the same firm of auditors year in, year out er all of us are familiar with the er the last item on the annual general meeting, a motion to propose the re-election of the auditors, er I wonder whether or not that's something that ought to be looked at. I understand the exquence, the expense question but there's also the question of transparency and efficiency because firms ought to look at audit as a useful discipline, it's not a question of snoopers or narks, as the minister said, er audit is an essential function for the efficiency of the firm as well as for the protection of the public.... The... next point that I wanted to turn to is who the duty of care is owed owed to, er as I understand it the present law is quite clear. The auditors owe a duty of care to the shore share holders collectively, not to individual share holders or what are called stake holders, employees for example, er nor do auditors have a general duty so far as the public interest is concerned. I believe that's something that needs to be looked at and if the government were prepared to embark on a review of auditing er generally then that is something that I think there is some useful point in pursuing further... er it's interesting that er er erm when Bingham examined this point at paragraph three er point three nine in his report er he has a long paragraph er discussing these matters and er he says that er he... at the end of the day he doesn't come to a concluded view er although he does er acknowledge the fact that there are many people er depositors or example, share holders and employees who might have an interest in a particular company. Then in paragraph three forty he goes on to s to point out that the law er er which was then recently established was that auditors due owe a duty of care to their client company and the whole body of share holders but not to individual share holders and not to non share holding depositors. Now he was talking in the context of er of of a, er but it is something that I think the government does need to look at because given the nature of multi-national companies or even the nature of public companies and private companies in this country where there is a public interest, not just in efficiency but also in probity. That it's time perhaps that we should look at the role of bankers and see whether or not they should have a wider duty than at present. I and we er don't have a concluded view on the matter but it is something that I think that we need to look at. I also think that there is substantial merit in the point that was put in intervention by my honourable friend the member for Grimbsy, on the duty of auditors. He drew attention to the fact that in terms of the local government act, er local government finance act of nineteen er eighty two, that auditors have a far wider duty... than is proposed in these orders before us, because the duty is to detect fraud. Now to my mind that is not a question of being a snooper, a nark or even being a policeman, er it is er er indeed if we look at section fifteen of the local government finance act of nineteen eighty two er it it's quite interesting to see the the words used because the auditor is under a duty, amongst other things, to see that the accounts are prepared in accordance with regulations er made under the act er to see that proper practices that have been followed and to see that the body of accounts that have been audited have made proper arrangements f for securing economy, efficiency and effectiveness. Now that's something that erm... particularly that last point, that audit committees that are established in most efficient companies want to look at and I come back to the point that audit ought to be looked at as something that assists companies in efficiency as well as a mechanism for detecting fraud and yet the government doesn't appear to be examining that. It seems to be saying this is entirely a matter for the profession. I would have thought that it is in the government's interest to promote efficiency, it's certainly in the government's interest to maintain the public interest with regard er to fraud or other wrong doing er but it's something that the government ought to look at and again it seems to me that it ought to be a matter that er could be looked at if there was a proper inquiry. I note that in these orders Madam Speaker, there is a reference to er information or er material that may of significance. It will be interesting to know how the wha how the minister proposes to define er materials er material significance, er who will issue guidance on that point er will it be the professional associations, is it something that the government is going to turn it's mind to and what is, what does it actually mean er for example if the auditor was looking at the Maxwell accounts er what what is a matter of material er er er significance, er for example would it be materially significant that just about every one er er who you spoke to at the time thought that Maxwell was a crook although interestingly that wasn't er apparently the view of the regulator or that are directly responsible for these matters, er but even before Maxwell was exposed for the the crook that he was... er many, many people knew from him that his conduct, er the way his conducted himself, the D T I itself of course had said that he was a... a a manifestly unsuitable person er to be in charge of a company. Is that is that an example of what er might be er information that would be of material significance. It would be helpful I think if the government er would say something about that. Madam Deputy Speaker there is course another matter of er of er broader significance and that is that er whilst these orders er er er cover erm certain financial institutions, they don't erm they don't cover others, they don't cover Lloyds of London in so far as I could see, erm I'd half expected to see the honourable member for Gloucester West er in his place to pursue his campaign that apparently he er he he is not able to be here and indeed er others who sit on the benches opposite who lost a large sum of money in Lloyds, er but they might have had something to say about it as it does seem odd that Lloyds has not been covered, no doubt the minister would tell us that needs primary legislation and I I'm quite sure this government would move heaven and earth not to introduce another Lloyds bill er because of er the problems that that would no doubt attract. But perhaps the minister could tell us er why they're not covered and indeed I understand that in particular er non-U K banks with branches in the in the in this country er are not covered either. I may be wrong about that erm but perhaps the minister could address himself specifically to that point and also to the question of pension schemes, perhaps er covered under some other legislation but I think these are matters that are of erm of of of some concern. Er, as I said the government has already accepted when we introduced the legislation last year in the criminal justice act on money laundering, that there are far wider er interests and fidrer fi far wider implications than there have been ever before and I think the government needs to do a little bit more to show that it is aware of international implications and the sheer scale of what we're dealing with... and er I touched earlier on the question of indemnity, er perhaps the minister could specifically address that point. I notice that er section a hundred and nine of the financial services act nineteen eighty six er quite explicitly provides an indemnity. What is the position with regard to auditors in this case er what is the indemnity. I assume that if they can bring themselves within the terms of erm... of these orders then they will er be indemnified. The question that arises though is if they can bring themselves only within er the er words used by the minister, will they be protected? Now er I'm thinking in in the case of er perhaps a young accountant advising on financial management who finds something odd and perhaps he reports it direct to the authorities, will he be covered or will he have to go through some procedure in order to bring himself within the protection? It is an important matter because clearly if er if the matter er if the suspicion er turns out to have been reasonable but not to bear t further examination then an accountant er could find themselves in great difficulty er both with regard to pecuniary difficulty and also professional difficulty and it's something the minister needs to look at. I think there are two substantial points that er the house ought to address itself to in conclusion. Firstly, and I return to this point which I have mentioned again and again in debates such as this and that's the the question of the lack of there being a central agency er in existence to see to the enforcement of these matters. It's been brought to my attention on a number of occasions by reputable bodies such as the stock exchange, that because of the multiplicity of regulations, er because of the complex nature of the legislation concerned and the er er the the comparatively large number of regulatory or supervisory bodies er that there is no er an and because of the fact that there are so many differences and standards and so on, that there is a need for a central enforcement body to bring together whatever evidence is available er so that these matters can be prosecuted, if I use that that general term. Now... yes. I think that, if I may say so, is a mistaken view... because... because of the proliferation of rules and regulations he's probably right, another quango or another body is needed. What I think we're saying on this side of the house, I don't know if we're saying it loud enough or it's going to have effect, is that we must reduce the number of rules and regulations, you don't actually need the body... which the honourable member's talking about. You don't want another body because of the number of rules and regulations, you want to reduce the number of rules and regulations, you don't need another body. Well... I agree with the honourable gentleman to this extent and that as he knows er we would scrap the self regulatory system and make the S I B responsible for er regulating er er the industry and in time merge it with a banking er regulatory body, er so that would answer that point er and I think that the S I B er could also be responsible for the enforcement of these matters. Again, an extra quango wouldn't be needed and er he's probably aware of that there is a develo er there is a group of er of er various regulators who erm who operate under the acronym finn [spelling] F I double N N [] and which is referred to er in the fact that I think the chancellor made some announcement about it. Er, I think it would be far better to have a streamlined regulatory system which would make the much cheaper and more efficient and I'm glad that the honourable gentleman seems to be agreeing and perhaps he could try and persuade his honourable mefem member on the front bench that legislation, primary legislation is needed, I'm glad to hear he's working on it erm on on the second on the second point he made about the number of regulations, I'm not sure I would agree with him that the best way of resolving this problem is to have less regulations er... er though I would agree with the general er thrust of what he might be saying and that is that if the regulatory system was to concentrate on promoting higher professional standards and have less emphasis on rules and regulations then I think that would help. But when we're dealing as we are in this case, with fraud, then clearly there has to be regulations, there has to be er primary legislation er so that was the point I'm making but as I say, it's not just me, it's the stock exchange, the S I B, all of them believe that we need a single enforcement body to look at these matters and I do wish perhaps the minister does but the government must acc eople and a number of ople obviously with a number of traumas and a number of di exploit the different rules and regulations and to get through them because they know they are never going to be caught and the little chance of being prosecuted and even if they are prosecuted er then the chances of being convicted are remote and even if they are convicted I'm afraid that the judicial shi system shows er that the worst they can expect is a few hours mowing the grass in front of an old folks home or perhaps a few months er in the country residence, albeit owned by Her Majesty. It is something that the government needs to look at and indeed it goes hand in hand er with the need to overall the whole regulatory system er which is something that I've referred to often enough before er and I have no hesitation in repeating it again. Madam er deputy speaker, there is a feeling abroad in the country that an audit certificate is rather like an M O T certificate, it's good for the minute that it was granted but it is perfectly useless thereafter. I think that feeling has got to be dispelled and it's for these points that the, for these reasons the government needs to turn its attention a little bit more er to the issues that I that I have raised and I would refer in conclusion Madam de deputy speaker, the minister to the Bank of England's er memorandum submitted to the treasury and civil service er select committee in its report published on eighth of December last year when at page a hundred and eighty five they draw attention to the European directives that the minister himself referred to. I understand it's run into some difficulty but I urge the minister to press the commission to get a move on because this this is a problem that doesn't just affect this country, it is certainly a problem that affects the whole of Europe and the European union in particular but also the the er the whole of the world and it's something that needs international action. We er er erm... in this country have a very bitter experience with B C C I, it wasn't just the knock it took to the regulatory system but I need hardly remind this house there are thousands of people who lost everything they had and that and there are many people who lost everything they had and feel that this house has not taken their concern seriously and it's something the minister must show that the government is willing to pursue these matters, even if it means introducing primary legislation. Madam Deputy Speaker I re read in the newspapers today that there has been s some criticism er that the matters such as this have been taken on the floor of the house. I think it's important these matters are taken on the floor of the house because they are very, very serious. Perhaps this debate won't be as lively and er as controversial as the one that er we arranged to have on the question of insider dealing but it is an important matter because auditing as I said, is not just as assistance to companies but it is a reassurance to the general public and the public at the moment are in need of grave reassurance that the insur that the er the financial services industry as well as industry generally, is being properly looked after and for these reasons er although we support er the orders before er the house tonight, we have no hesitation at all in ensuring that they are debated properly than not something that should simply go through on the nod. Hear, hear. [Mead:] Mr Anthony [Wilson:] Madam Deputy Speaker. I I think erm... a a as you've kindly called me... er I think I will try and make this debate a little more lively erm... but I'm not sure about being controversial er because here I was last week, I was making a speech about the significance of er the deregulation of contracting out bill... and er I said then... that the bill is so important because it is the first major attempt by government to slay the red tape dragon. The maxim that man learns nothing from history is often proved... true that the bill I said shows the government learning from history.... Er, I went on to say throughout the ages the government has repealed legislation, there's nothing new about repealing legislation... it is repealed either because it is proved unworkable or because it's simply outlived its shelf life.... I went on to say in the new world in which we live legislation has grown like topsy and thus requires more drastic pruning. Those in the house who are gardeners know that shrubs grow irregularly and to keep trees and shrubs in fine condition, pruning is essential. Madam Deputy Speaker, nineteen eighty nine... there were five times more pages of legislation than in nineteen seventy nine. Brussels churned out five volumes of legislation before we joined the European community. It now churns out thirty seven volumes... each year. However the cause is not simply too many Eurocrats in Brussels, directors of the commission are often sensible and come in general terms to Britain suggesting a simple way of dealing with the problem. Trouble is once a directive hits Whitehall bevies of officials are stirred into action, taking time and effort to interpret and rewrite the directive. Madam Deputy Speaker, throughout my speech last week I got approval er from the front bench, I got approving nods from my colleagues and winks and a hear hears whenever I said anything... about deregulation. We have the president of the board of trade and industry making a stirring speech and saying that four hundred and forty proposals as a result of the booklet called cutting red tape were either being implemented or under active consideration... and he talked about the explanatory guide... to the bill, the new scrutiny committee that might be set up in each house, he spoke about the business task forces that had made over six hundred recommendations... the debate I thought heralded... was er er I thought the debate heralded er er a new age... where over zealous officialdom would be a thing of the past. Where Whitehall mandolins would be sat on... especially those who were involved in over interpreting general directives from Brussels... and this side of the house has been jostling for position I am told, in order to get on the standing committee which is about to start upstairs. The aim of that bill is to cut back on rules and regulations, to reduce the number of statutory instruments which in nineteen ninety two reached a record level of three thousand three hundred and fifty nine, yes three thousand three hundred and fifty nine statutory instruments and here we are debating banks. [Mead:] the honourary member continues er are we being treated to a rerun of the speech made recently because I think it would be more appropriate if the honourable member discussed the orders tonight, otherwise there will be a bit a pruning from the chair. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Wilson:] Madam Deputy Speaker, erm there'll be no need for any pruning from the chair... because I had just mentioned the word banks at the very point... that you madam speaker, got up and I can assure that er pruning would not be in order. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Wilson:] here was that er we're debating banks and banking regulations... building soc soc society orders, auditors regulations and financial services rules. Madam Deputy Speaker I didn't mention... those... at all in the speech I gave last week which was so warmly received by the house.... Here are all my colleagues rushing upstairs with great enthusiasm, diving into the committee room, anxious to get on to curb the ever growing number of rules and regulations and whilst they're upstairs merrily getting on with it, here we are downstairs passing more... things which we say we don't want to do. [speaker001:] Will the honourable member give way? [Wilson:] Yes. [speaker001:] in favour er in his pursuit of er deregulation in scrapping all regulations er er about fraud, attempts to stop fraud, controls on fraud and is like this, is deregulation going to be a fraudsters fun day? [Wilson:] where is the problem. Every regulation that this house pass is always a good reason for it. You'll find whether it be anything with safety, hygiene... or security and fraud, there will always be quite rightly a pressure group or an interest group that will push for that rule or regulation. So I'm not a for a moment suggesting that some rules and regulations aren't needed and I think that er the trouble is that every rule and regulation that is passed in this house, there's always an excuse for it and there's usually a very good reason for it, but that is the problem that the government faces and it's quite fairly er a problem the treasury face when they introduce these statutory instruments because er no one can disagree that fraud must be stamped out, all I'm actually saying is that unfortunately upstairs we have a deregulation bill... going ahead at all pace with hundreds of clauses and hundreds of new rules... to try and red hundreds of new clauses to reduce the number of rules and here we are downstairs on the floor we have... passing for very good reason perhaps, more rules and regulations and there are four more tonight... and I believe that every government department Madam... deputy speaker, has a minister... specially appointed to keep an eye on deregulation and I just wondered although er my honourable friend on the front bench mentioned that er the even the D T I minister responsible for deregulation has looked at these, I wonder if there is a minister in the treasury, they've actually put a minister in the treasury responsible for deregulation or is the ministry actually above deregulation because I think... that er I got the impression that the... that every ministry would have a deregulation minister and I think it would be rather useful to know who the deregulation minister is in the treasury. I I I I know er it's been looked at by the D T I but has it been looked at by the treasury itself? You see Madam Deputy Speaker, deregulation... unless we're very careful, could just become another layer of bureaucracy with a whole new sub culture of civil servants being consulted as to whether something should be deregulated or not. Gloriously obliv oblivious of what's going on next door, it could be a huge substructure, deregulation the new in thing. There'll be a new quango, there'll be a new S F R A, there'll be a government ministers er er and a lot of ci civil servants, we already have the deregulation unit. My concern Madam Deputy Speaker is whether we're all being hoodwinked into believing that deregulation bill is opening a new chapter in our legislative history when in fact it's no more than perhaps a weasel word describing one thing but er er another thing is happening. I'm sure the minister... does have a very good reason as to why these four statutory instruments are needed and I'm sure both sides of the house recognise that they're needed. But I've been on an immense number of statutory instruments upstairs... er and everybody says they're greatly needed, they usually say they're greatly needed because they want to go out in three or four minutes and ten thirty comes and ten thirty five they're out. Er, I mean, deregulation... a bill er is not perhaps gonna affect the numbers of statutory instruments going through the house and I think that er the city would continue without the statutory instrument, er I think the country would continue, it would go on if we'd hadn't passed these regulations and in essence are these four new statutory instruments really going to... help run the country more effectively... er are we imposing duties on auditors... er and regulators er with the securities er er tied up with the investment board, another quango, er do we need all this? And then of course the insurance regulations have a compliance cost assessment. Have the other statutory instruments have a compliance cost assessment? And the most interesting thing is that er the consultees found it difficult... to assess the extent of any additional cost arising from deregulation so... you had a regulation... you had a compliance cost assessment... and you had employed people, consulted as to whether in fact that statutory instrument was gonna cost any more. I wonder how much that cost. So I do think it's an industry which is very dangerous now and which could well get out of hand. I think Madam Speaker we seem to live in... gobbledygook land. We seem to be able to argue vigorously and passionately about anything... and equally passionately on reflection that we didn't really need the rule and regulation in the first place. As a nation we are now obsessed to the point of paralysis... with rules and regulations. It's surprising one can move without some rule impeding on one's freedom, so concerned is the state on on the issues of welfare, hygiene, security and safety matters. [Mead:] Order... er the honourable gentleman seems to have forgotten my previous warning, we're not discussing all manner of rules and regulations, we have four statutory instruments and he must address himself to those. [Wilson:] I do hear what you say but these four regulations... are in the framework of the whole government policy towards rules and regulations. One can't actually separate them, although you will try to, from all the other rules and regulations we are passing all over the place. What I am trying to do is to, is to question... the wisdom of introducing more rules and regulations and every time I try and raise this issue, whether it be in standing committee or on the floor of the house, quite understandably the chairman or the... speaker, deputy speaker in your case, raises the point... that in fact I'm going outside the rules and regulations and the result is... you can never challenge the whole principle because every time one tries to challenge it one gets up and that's the disease I'm afraid we've now er facing in this country. But Madam Deputy Speaker I will appear. [Mead:] May I remind the honourable member that there is no reason why he should not tear to pieces these four statutory instruments if that's what he wishes, but that is what he must do... not deal with all the others. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Wilson:] I am grateful for that direction. In fact in my own way, though I'm not as clear as some honourable members, I was actually doing that erm but er er I was pointing out that these were better than most although all of them could we could have perhaps done without. Madam Deputy Speaker I was gonna give a very illustrative example... of what I'm talking about but perhaps I will allow the house to have that example on another occasion because I actually would prefer not to be er er er prevented from giving you the most vivid story of what I'm talking about. But clearly this isn't the right place er er... but I'm never sh. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Wilson:] I'm never sure Madam actually when is the right place is but it's certainly not now, erm Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm just wondering... er the statutory instruments we're passing tonight... er and I did raise this point to the minister about the drain on the private sector every time a rule and regulation is passed. I think it was reassuring to learn that er these er er these rules and regulations will not impact on private enterprise. Because it would be bad news for the country if we are witnessing another fight between the private sector and the state and I hope that we're not going to see in the whole rules and regulation industry, versus er the public... a sort of repeat of the Moriarty, Sherlock Holmes final fight er with never knowing who in fact er wins as the battle of o of continues. Madam Deputy Speaker I only wanted to make a short intervention er er on this point and I think I will return to it from time to time because it is a perennial, annual problem of every time the minister introduces a a rule and regulation we can understand it's extremely useful and how can one... say that er regulations about fraud are not useful, it's just the culture of our country has been besieged by these rules and regulations and I'm surprised that anybody can actually make any profit or do any business simply because of the weight of officialdom and the weight of rules and regulations which prevents them from getting above er the the surface. I I think that that's really the message which I'm quite sure er the the economic secretary has got er and I do apologise if I have laboured the point but I will be doing so until we can have a situation where we don't go on passing more rules and regulations but in fact all the legislation coming to the house is purely repealing legislation so we don't actually need any fresh legislation, we just repeal what in fact er we have introduced er because it is... it is er not helpful to the prosperity of this country. [Mead:] Mr Austin Mitchell. [Banks:] won't attempt to follow the honourable rerun er of his speech last week on deregulation bill. Except to note that now that the right honourable member for Chesterfield is publishing his former speeches as a video, it is rather a cheap operation to come and repeat them in the chamber er rather than putting them out er for public consumption there are places... where he could repeat the kind of speeches just given, unfortunately the government is closing most of them down at the moment and putting the cut the inhabitants out in the community er but it had no relevance to the er the subject we're dealing with today. Talking of reruns Madam er deputy speaker, er I almost feel I'm involved in a series of reruns with the er with the minister himself because er in a series of bills er committees in the eighties, standing committees... on the building societies bill, on the banking bill, on the financial services... er bill, as they all were, er he was speaking at that time er in favour of more effective regulation, backing the votes of this side... er for kind, the kind of policies it's introducing today. They were speaking in favour of it, now here he comes along er and er we we're I I find myself, regrettable I think because er er his er [LAUGHTER] a minister very well informed in these areas with er... who made in those committees a very powerful and effective contribution, [LAUGHTER] now we find ourselves [] on the er opposite side but I have to say now that we are on opposite side that what is introducing today er is really er too little er and far too er too too late. It's inadequate... er and it [LAUGHTER] it creates the impression [] in my mind, the very possibility that the government is actually is in favour of fraud because they're doing to little, far too little er and these regulations are far too little er to actually stop it down. Is it that the fraudsters are the only section of society that is going to vote for the Conservatives er at the at the at the next election because certainly er the reputation of the city of London er is going down all the time because of the squalid frauds that are being perpetrated there a and the government is lagging behind er in catching up and in providing an effective regulatory framework er that's that's going to deal er with them. This Madam Deputy Speaker, is no way to regulate for for a major issue. We've had no inquiry. These er er orders today aren't based on a thorough inquiry er into how audits on the the financial institutions are conducted, what's wrong with them, what goes wrong, not even a thorough er inquiry into what happened in the B C C I case, er we can't legislate, we can't legi or [LAUGHTER] regulate I put it [] without er er er a thorough inquiry and yet here we have er orders brought in er without inquiry. The the the they're not fitted in to any framework of stronger structures to back er the proposals put before us er er t today. We have a confused and overlapping structure er er, the honourable member might be interested in just how confused it is er and how it can be simplified by er going along with the proposals we're putting forward on this side of the er er the house because there's so many overlapping authorities it's just not clear who's actually responsible for enforcement and compliance. I mean if you take the regulatory we did it with today... that it consists of the Bank of England, the Securities and Investment Board, twenty four organisations of the S I B S, siblings you might call them er under it, the Building Societies Commission, the police, the serious fraud office, the Department of Trade and Industry, the London Stock Exchange, the Inland Revenue, five recognised supervisory bodies, all those dealing with er auditors and the others, it's chaos er and nobody knows who is responsible for what and in that chaos you get overlapping decisions er er and conflicting regulations, everybody tries to ensure themselves by regulating too much er er and it's a situation which drastically needs simplification, but we don't have any proposals... for strengthening and making that work er er frame work more effective, to back up er this er simple proposal today. All we have is the government time from time to time tweaking up the regulations as its er as its er it it it its doing here. You cannot rely on them deputy speaker if the government is doing er in these orders er on auditors to be er the effective and certainly not the only er police force of financial institutions. They can't relied on as a guarantee of public interest and propriety as a counter against fraud because their powers, their role, their functions, the way they carry on their business is inadequate to deal with that particular area. [speaker001:] honourable member... what he's really saying as I understand it Madam Speaker is there's too much bureaucracy and the bureaucracy is going to prevent anybody acting because they're all overlapping, they're all paid out of presumably the public purse as well, there's a there's a enormous number of public off officials that is preventing... er a a clear direct,exes executive arm. Is that what he's saying? [Banks:] Yes there are far too many overlapping institutions that self regulation hasn't worked, it ha has no... adequate on the annualt we welcomed 21 effective against fraud by replacing it by an independent... statutory statutory based regulator which has the power to strike and strike hard rather than everything er by the the the plethora of regulations we now deal with in the financial... er in the financial sector and in the respect of what's proposed today, you can't rely er on auditors to be the effective police force that they've been required to be by these er regulations. We don't even have an effective definition of who the auditors er are are are responsible to. What the government is proposing... er is the bare minimum and because it's so minimal you have to ask are they really serious er about dealing with the the kind of fraud that er lead er to this attempt to close the er stable door er after the er the the horse has has bolted. I I turn that that the point I made about the... the the lack of inquiry because er [clears throat] er in effect we know very little about what went wrong... with B C C I and particularly what went wrong with the audit er of B C C I because we haven't had an inquiry er into this country and to what went wrong in that instance. That instance is the justification... er for these orders [LAUGHTER] but we don't know [] er exactly what happened, the government hasn't seen fit to institute an inquiry which will tell us. We need the information... the last Labour government er when they were banking er banking crisis in the early er in the early seventies, instituted a series of inquiries, there was an inquiry into London and counties, there was one into London and capital, a series of inquiries which were published, the information was there, we knew what had gone wrong and we knew therefore how to deal with it. In this instance there's nothing... er and... er justice Bingham er did say specifically that he wasn't pursuing er the matter of er audit, it wasn't his responsibility er the government should certainly have repaired that omission by pursuing it themselves, by inquiring... er into er what went wrong. Ministers say well the serious fraud office is looking into it but that hasn't precluded inquiries er in other cases like London United Investments and Maxwell er so there should be an inquiry er into the audit of B C C I so we know exactly what went wrong. [LAUGHTER] I indeed er in the er [] companies act in nineteen eighty nine the minister himself er argued... that for any system to be effective there had to be a distance between regulators and regulations but the only people who have done any inquiry into B C C I which is the Institute er it itself is the mafia regulating the mafia [LAUGHTER] [] auditors trying to regulate er the the auditors. There isn't that degree of distance which the minister himself asked for er in the committee er on which we both sat er in er nineteen eighty nine. The only inquiry has been the American one and that was handicapped because the British er er partners of er Price Waterhouse didn't pass on to either that inquiry or to the American partners of Price Waterhouse, the information they had about what had gone wrong with B C C I so that inquiry itself... was inadequate but it is the only one and what that found er was appalling... er indeed they were pretty critical about British audit regulation, about the auditors performance. It says B C C I's accountants failed to protect B C C I's innocent depositors er and creditors from the consequences of poor practice.

[speaker001:] There are no proposals either in er draught directive form or before this house on that matter as far as I know and certainly er if that were to be the proposal it would be objected to strenuously on this side of the house. Article eight B two provides that citizens of the union shall have the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European parliament. At present there are considerable disparities between the way in which the right to vote and the right to stand as a candidate are treated in various member states. On the right to vote for example, the U K grants this right to all U K citizens who've been out of the country for less than twenty years, while Germany extends voting rights to all German nationals residing in another member country of the council of Europe and those who've lived in non-member country for... less than ten years. Certain member states, Denmark, The Netherlands and Portugal grant such voting rights only to those expatriate nationals who are living in another E C member state. There are also differences between the states on the ability to stand as a candidate... and the measure that we are debating this evening will ensure that in respective elections to the European parliament... there is a greater degree of harmonisation. gentleman came to this house it seemed to be that he challenged the establishment and many of us welcomes that view it seemed to give a breath of fresh air, but now it seems to me that he's become entirely institutionalised, can he explain that to the house? Absolutely, I plead guilty, erm... the honourable member is er... certainly found me out there. I'm totally institutionalised and no doubt erm you'll see the truth of that if and when, if and when the Jocklyn report comes before this house.... These proposals also include additional checks on nationality to prevent multiple candidature and voting. Community voters... living outside their home country are required to meet the same qualifying rules of residence as any other national within that state. That is a reasonable principle that we support. Regulation four is right to create an offence of standing as a candidate in more than one member state at the same election. It is also right that there should be in new rule eight five, a declaration on the part of prospective E C candidates that contains details of nationality, address and last constituency in the home member state and evidence that the individual is not standing as a candidate in another member state. We also support the element of flexibility within the arrangements whereby community citizens have the option of whether to vote... in their country of residence or in the home country via a postal ballot. So while there is much to support er we do none the less Mr Deputy Speaker, need to draw attention to the Conservatives half heartedness in one particular area and that is registration and the registration of voters. We note the transitional arrangements that apply to the U K should enable the electoral registers to include as many E C citizens as possible. Regulation eight authorises electoral registration officers to register relevant citizens of the union as European parliamentary electors... and regulation nine requires the officer to publish a register of relevant citizens of the union entitled to vote. However... delay has meant that the ordinary electoral register is already published so regulation eighteen substitutes publication date of May the ninth for the European community citizens register. Hence applications must be in... by nine weeks time, nine weeks hence at the very least. In order words by April the twenty second. I give way gladly to the minister. you understand that the honourable gentleman wants to establish that the government has been extraordinarily dilatory, that er there is a massive delay, there is problem for... electoral registration officers because... that the regulations, the regulations depend upon a directive. The directive... was agreed and promulgated in December ninety three. We have been two months in producing this very complicated set of regulations. I don't think that's slow, I think that's moving with very considerable speed. Here, here. Er... indeed the directive was promulgated as the minister said but I don't think it was a bolt out of the blue, it was of course something that we around for some considerable time before that and of course that excuse hardly applies... to the delay in establishing the European parliamentary constituency committees, er as the minister er will know very well, it was merely a matter of seven weeks, er the excuse being that had they had another seven weeks... they could have had the public inquiry stage, the reality of course was that there was plenty of time to do this in good time and in good order and without the confusion that exists now er around the candidatures and the boundaries of the existing European boundaries.... On the question of registration of electors, clearly it is very important that if we now have less than nine weeks from this evening for those possibly four hundred thousand people to seek registration then the it is essential that the minister and the department er... engage in a serious advertising campaign to ensure that people can exercise the rights that are due to them and I would like the minister perhaps in his later remarks, to expand on what, if any, measure the government intends to take to publicise the fact of E C voting rights to those four hundred thousand or so... er European citizens of voting age resident in this country. Needless to say er Mr Deputy Speaker, other European countries are taking the job more seriously. There's a advertisement er for example in a recent issue of the Guardian, if my er Dutch was erm... a little better I'd quote it into the record but erm... I'm afraid it's, it doesn't make very much sense to me at the moment. But nonetheless the literal translation I understand is that people who are Dutch citizens in this country should contact the er ambassador at thirty eight Hyde Park Gate and seek the relevant forms in order to register for the election and vote in the U K and I hope our friends er in... in the Binnenhoff have taken that a little more seriously than appears to have been the case in in the Home Office. Similar exercises have been undertaken by other er governments... and there's a tremendous contrast with the way those governments have actually sought to do this, with our own government, erm no publicity whatsoever has appeared yet and again I offer the minister the chance to tell us at some later point, what the government is prepared to do to exert itself on this matter and... to tell us indeed whether it wants people to register... erm it isn't particularly clear whether in fact this is part of er some idea that the government has that people shouldn't register and I think that the minister needs to be very clear about this so that people get the message outside, because nine and a half million people didn't vote, even in the last general election. So could I therefore ask the minister to, on another matter, to ensure that later in his remarks would he agree to the proposal that the right to a postal vote should be highly publicised in this country, perhaps by putting the... R P F nine A form in the newspapers well before the closing date of May the twentieth. Not least because of our course many people will be away... er during the Summer on their holidays and some indeed may well be... involved in the D-day celebrations. It's self evident Mr Deputy Speaker that this government is utterly unconcerned to carry out an obligation to which is bound by a treaty, freely entered into and the minister must answer the question of how he squares this inactivity with regulation nine three which obliges registration officers to take reasonable steps to obtain information about who should be eligible to appear on the electoral role. The government should declare a willingness this evening to put some energy or resources into maximising electoral turn out among E C voters. The importance of ensuring a high turnout amongst E C nationals surely warrants something more than the complacency and drift that has come to characterise this government's whole policy towards the European community. Tonight... Mr Deputy Speaker, the Conservatives have gone through the motions. Law and treaty demand that boundaries be withdrawn er be redrawn and E C citizens given the vote. These orders fulfil that bear minimum and it will be left to others to do that job well. Here, here. [speaker002:] Mr Michael Spicer. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker I have to confess to you it is a matter of some indifference to me as to how many M E Ps were elect elect to the... European parliament, er if eighty one is to be the new magic number well so be it. Though I suppose one has to make a passing... one has to make a passing er reference to the... information which has come out in the other house erm and be publicised this weekend in the press but er... er at one million almost one million a slug, M E Ps don't come cheap, er I suppose one however would want to make allowances for the fact that they have three parliamentary buildings, that they have to go on trips and that er... they have to pay er er I suppose... German rates for their bureaucracy so there clearly are... exceptional factors and indeed I wouldn't want to make too much of that. What I really want to ask before the house, very, very briefly indeed is the... question of er what are they going to do when they get there and er thus look at the question of the cost effectiveness, well... I see it. [speaker002:] Order... in this very short debate it might be advantageous if I would just draw to the attention of the house this scope of the debate... the scope of the debate, debate should be confirmed to the desir desirability of the proposed boundary for European parliamentary constituencies and by introducing the changes to the franchise and qualifications of representatives for European parliament elections in the manner specified. If honourable members would in fact stick to the... debate in that particular way and in fact er er it would be of great advantage of the house... it is a short debate er and... and going off the the main scope of the debate in fact leaves less time for other people to speak. Mr Michael Spicer. [Spicer:] Of course I accept that ruling entirely Mr Deputy Speaker but the point I was trying to make, I am going to give the speech very briefly indeed I do assure you, is that if you're trying to assess the numbers er and the correctness of the numbers that are being er er going to vote for and indeed the boundaries associated with those numbers, it's a perfectly I would have thought, fair question to ask oneself as they go off... er from us as to what they are going off in to... er and I I do assure you Mr Deputy Speake, I don't plan to speak more than two minutes, two to three minutes on this matter, I do hope that you will allow me just to... make a very brief point on this. Because otherwise it's almost impos. [speaker002:] Order, I am not in, I am not allowing anything outside the scope of the debate Mr Michael Spicer. [Spicer:] Can I ask you then Mr Deputy Speaker, on a point of order as to whether or not it's... in order for us to discuss the cost effectiveness of er of a member of the European parliament and the a and the costs associated. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] The simple answer to that is no, it is not in order. Mr Michael Spicer. [Spicer:] If we're not allowed to discuss the costs er associated with er electing a greater number of M E Ps to the er European parliament er and the boundaries associated with it, I have nothing further to say. [speaker001:] Very good [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mr Matthew Taylor. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Taylor:] The er... the er it has to be said on this side I suspect that the brevity of that speech was quite welcome, only because er I think er a number of us weren't altogether sure how how much time we would, we would get in this er debate after the front bench speaks, speeches. But the... I want to make essentially er two points, one relating... er to the overall boundary review and one relating... er an argument relating to my own area. If the proposals for electoral reform across the European union had occurred, this debate would not be taking place, boundaries would not be... the relevant issue and a common electoral system would mean that the citizens of the European community could be properly represented as a whole. I believe it's not acceptable in any democratic institution to have one area... er represented in an unfair and undemocratic way, in a way that distorts er the er parliament er itself and under article one three eight, paragraph three of the E C treaty a common electoral system is a requirement. It's. [speaker002:] Point of order Mr Bernard Jenkins. [Jenkins:] Erm in view of your last ruling er Mr Deputy Speaker, is it in order to discuss different voting systems, are we not discussing those eligible to vote and the parliamentary constituencies? [speaker002:] The honourable gentleman of the chair. Mr Matthew Taylor. [Taylor:] Er... I th I think if the honourable member pays attention he will appreciate that the boundaries are the nub of the issue in terms of er electoral systems and the... common electoral system to which this country is a signatory in agreeing that that should be where we are... er headed, is a principle which I believe that this er commission should have been asked to address, it should have been what was happening er at this time in the history of the European parliament, should have happened long ago but sadly it's a principle which both Labour and Conservative governments in the past have preferred to ignore... frankly for their own electoral benefit. Whatever arguments are being used to block the introduction of a fair electoral system... in U K Westminster elections can surely not follow the blocking reform... er of our electoral procedure for Europe. The... proposals... demanding a common fair electoral system have been passed by the European parliament. The proposals rest on the table of the council of ministers and it's common knowledge that this government er has er shown the greatest reluctance to see any movement er forward. I believe it's a necessary reform, it's a pity that the government have not taken the opportunity of change in the number of seats... to bring some measure of proportionality to the British European elections. Even if the government did not wish to take this opportunity for a full reform to a fair voting system, the extra six seats offered the chance of creating a more proportional system by creating a so called additional member top up to ensure under represented views gained their rightful place in Europe. We could have created a fairer system without incidentally, the problems that have been referred to in earlier debates of trying to redraw boundaries at such short notice er before the European elections. The problems of candidates getting a place and all the rest of it. However... given that even this partial form has been rejected, hats cannot, in the broad sense, be expected therefore to support these proposals. But I also want to address a narrower point in greater detail in relation to my own county of Cornwall. I don't know it may be that I'll be the only member er that talks in terms of a specific Euro seat er in any detail but it does matter in our area and we have a long history of arguing that case. The European parliamentary elections act of nineteen seventy eight states that the electorate of any European parliamentary constituency in Great Britain should be as near to the electoral quota as is reasonably practicable, having regard where appropriate to special... geographical considerations. The relative importance given to the second half of this statement is crucial to the argument for a Cornish seat. There's strong evidence that Cornwall fulfils the requirements of those special geographic considerations. The committee proposals for a Cornwall and West Plymouth European parliamentary constituency provoked an enormous response opposing the link with Plymouth er as it has done on each occasion that the constituency's been reviewed. The late David Penhaligon... argued for a separate constituency in nineteen seventy eight and I argued the case in select committee in nineteen eighty eight and the most important fact about these responses is the sheer weight of numbers from democratically elected bodies in Cornwall. Those include the county council... all six Cornish district councils, the Cornwall association of town and parish councils and forty eight individual Cornish town and parish councils. Councils run by all groupings and more importantly on the whole er by none at all er through independent councillors at parish level and they have responded with that united voice, declaring their support for a separate Cornish constituency and it might er bear remarking as I think members on all sides of this house are aware, getting that kind of agreement between councils at different tiers and in different areas of the county is pretty remarkable in itself. The responses are all the more impressive when you consider the short period for consultation on the proposals. The case for a Cornish constituency has also been supported by the business community and leading academics. Peter Fitzgerald, one of the largest manufacturing employers in the county and chairman of the Cornwall economic forum, has emphasised the importance to local business of Cornwall having its own M E P. The institute of Cornish studies, the University of Exeter, even Cambridge University... made strong cases er for a separate Cornwall constituency and many individuals of course took their views up er personally er to the commission. Now I should explain why I believe that Cornwall is a special case and why so many local people argued in these terms. There are five grounds. First er the precedent that exists for concessions on the electoral quota, the separate cultural identity, the special geographic situation, the economic needs of Cornwall and finally the concerns of Plymouth itself. Firstly the criteria for the mean electorate size for a European parliamentary constituency has previously been used as a justification for ignoring the case for Cornwall, yet concessions have been made in other areas establishing such constituencies that do not meet the size requirement an that's because it is accepted that European parliamentary constituencies should be created along the lines of natural communities, communities... of identity and communities of interest. Cornwall has a very strong identity as a separate community and the present arrangement which links Cornwall with West Plymouth, I believe benefits neither area. Although the English review is being conducted independently from the rest of the U K it's relevant to examine the overall picture. Northern Ireland returns a representative for every three hundred and eight four thousand electors. Even on the mainland there are marked variations. For the proposed West Wales seat I understand the electorate is only about four hundred thousand. The fi just in fact just exactly four hundred thousand. The figure for the Highlands and Islands is an electorate of just three hundred and ten thousand. In other words Cornwall's electorate, three hundred and seventy two thousand, is actually more than the Highlands and the Islands and virtually the same as for Northern Ireland seats and for the West Wales seat. If you look in other parts of Europe... Luxembourg and the Republic of Ireland for example, the figures are as low as thirty six thousand and a hundred and sixty one thousand electors per member er respectively so the precise sizes of the constituencies is not the most material er issue in this case. The European parliament has a wide range of electorate per member and the electoral quota would not be extraordinary were Cornwall to get its own seat. It is... i i... I I we have a... wide range of changes that would flow out from that so you couldn't just take a change to Cornwall which would then create an oversized Devon seat, I quite accept that and we've argued from the first that this would have to be part of the review as a whole. You couldn't take Cornwall simply... alone. It is expected moreover that Cornwall with a rapidly growing population, one of the most grow rapidly growing in the country will not in any case remain much under quota er for very long. It is estimated indeed that the population will grow to the level of five hundred thousand... relatively rapidly. So given that the electoral quota argument is not final, contrary to er what the commission implies and what seems to have been the brief given to the commission, the, we come on to the other points. Cornwall has in a separate identity with its own history, traditions, custom and language. Attributes for it er firmly rooted in a Celtic past that frankly bears more relation to Wales and Scotland than it does... er to the past er in Devon. There would have been objections if areas of Scotland or Wales had been linked with parts of England for convenience er of this review, but it seems Cornwall once again as a distinct and separate identity, continues to be ignored. The European union recognises that special regard must be taken... er in respect of areas with strong regional identities. Indeed the European parliamentary resolution is specific on that point and I believe the boundary commission has failed to take the opportunity to exercise that requirement. Thirdly... it's disappointing that the committee have ignored the well defined geographical boundary of Cornwall, along the river Tamar. It is still a very substantial physical and psychological barrier between Plymouth and Cornwall. Tamar bridge is the only road vehicle crossing for... twenty three miles from Rainhead northward to Gunnislake Bridge and Cornwall is almost as island, with natural boundaries fixed by the coastline and the river Tamar. It's effectively isolated from the rest of the country and it's often forgotten in conversation when people say well I was at Bristol, in your part of the world er at the weekend. It's actually forgotten of course that Bristol is ne nearer London er than it is er to Cornwall. Indeed for some... the distance between their home and Plymouth is longer than the journey from London to Bristol. My fourth point is probably the single most important reason why Cornwall should be treated as a special case... and it's not an emotional reason. It's the failure er to address the economic geography of the county. Plymouth and Cornwall has totally different economic identities and European entanglement between them, I believe is mutually economically detrimental. The economy of Cornwall is still heavily reliant on traditional industries such as fishing, farming, tourism and mining for its income. Plymouth on the other hand... relies mainly on the fact that it's a m urban conurbation with a growing and diversified industrial and commercial base. The two economies distinctive and incompatible needs have been recognised in a development that has occurred since the committee met. Europe's regional economic development programme has been designated objective to status to Plymouth. This is targeted as areas fighting industrial decline. Cornwall on the other hand, has been a, has got the appropriate objective status aimed at developing rural areas, that demonstrates the difference between the two. I'm not opposed to links when they're relevant, I've in fact argued and encouraged them and defended them where they've taken place and I believe that they were important but I don't believe in them taking place where they're irrelevant... and er where they er are unhelpful. Cornwall has one of the worst black spots in the country for unemployment, poverty and further economic difficulties, has one of the lowest gross domestic products in Europe. The central statistical office er show regional G T P figures for Cornwall in nineteen ninety one that put Cornwall so badly off er that our G D P is in fact just er seventy three percent of the national average, whilst Devon's figures are eighty seven percent and I might add in terms of the different progress of the two, in nineteen eighty nine... Cornwall's G D P was seventy five point six percent so it's actually fallen back whereas Plymouth's was eighty five point five percent and... you've actually seen it grow. So we've actually been moving in opposite directions er in the er in the two areas. The economic performance of the two are divergent, they have a different set of problems and the linking of part of Plymouth with Cornwall creates a wholly artificial unit unrelated to geographical, social or economic reality. Indeed the creation of a split in the city of Plymouth itself, makes that divide even more stark because it's even more clearly not in the interests of Plymouth, as Plymouth city council... have been keen er to point out. The Plymouth interest, that final point, is I believe as clear as Cornwall's and the natural links in South Devon would provide the basis for a seat in which it could be... better represented. Cornwall needs a voice of its own, to argue its case for regional funding, to improve infrastructure, to reduce unemployment and to encourage industry. Funds need to be directed at improving Cornish roads, communications and rail links. The Liberal Democrats are opposed to the basis of this review at national level we believe an opportunity has been missed or perhaps I should say ducked... for the common, fair electoral system for which this country is supposedly a signatory. But if the chance for a fair electoral system is lost at least we should have played to what strength there is in a single member system and properly recognised the individual communities of the U K. That chance has been missed without review and on that grounds I don't believe this review should go through. [speaker002:] Richard Shepherd. [Shepherd:] Thank you sir erm... in that the government and the opposition front bench want to move this measure erm... fulfilling their commitments to the Maastricht treaty, I accept the methodology and the precedent that the government cites, I think that's appropriate, erm I just wanted to very briefly say that this is of course a vote no longer like the generality of the population voting for the membership of a golf club in which we have... varying degrees of er interest. We are now trying to affirm citizenship through the vote and therefore... the nature in which we distribute these seats and the affirmation that we give through the vote will not relate in fact to any of the sentiments I believe as pronounced by the opposition front bench. Both the Liberal Democrats spokesman and the opposition front bench... ally themselves to an out of reach of er lunacy that is not shared by the generality of the population outside. I understand sir that at the last erm election European matters only thirty one percent of the population could find their ways to voting stations. That may be of course because they were denied the Liberal Democrats panacea for everything namely erm proportional representation. There is profound and deep argument of course that that is no more representative or true of democracy than a single member constituency. It is a legitimate debate and of course the parroting of it as the only way forward is inappropriate to serious people trying to discuss that. One understands the route as to why the erm Liberal Democrats wish to pursue that. One cannot understand the route why that's so that the Labour party wishes erm to advantage that. But what I am saying in context, no this has a deal to do with the co boundaries, as you know erm the honourable member well knows, the essence of this this is wholly inappropriate in terms of erm trying to latest citizenship through an arrangement of six additional boundaries into a erm union and a political state and I think that that is the profound objection that this side of the house has expressed over a long period of time now, is a reflection of the public mood in the country in respect of this election and the way the boundaries er are are erm apportioned and all I say in conclusion is... that this is an evidence further of the irrelevance of this house in reflecting and attesting to public opinion outside. [speaker001:] Well Mr er Deputy Speaker I er... don't wish to er follow the honourable member of one of my er neighbours but I actually think it's really part of... grown up politics to ensure that the political opinion of a nation is adequately represented in the forums of that nation whether it be in this place or in the European er parliament and to that extent I make no bones about it that erm I wish that we were debating a different electoral system and Mr Deputy Speaker going back to the minister's introduction... erm it is a fact, I didn't wish to intervene because I didn't, it's a short debate and I didn't want to take up... er extra time, but it is a fact is it not that... our electoral system unique across Europe... means that our deadline as opposed to what the French are going to do is different to all the other member states. See all the other member states of er European er community Mr Deputy Speaker,... use proportional representation either on national lists or on large regional lists. It is very easy... if you like the day before literally as the minister said, the day before for them to make their change as to where the cut off point comes. It doesn't affect the value of anybody's vote in those countries at all. That cannot be the case... in a single member constituency arrangement. It will have to be for us at least twenty one days, that's the absolute rock bottom minimum I would have thought therefore the French I suspect have us over a barrel and we would have to cough up for the... enormous expenditure of an extra building at Strasbourg which is not needed erm as I understand it er that er view I savoured... I don't erm have the details of that. But Mr Deputy Speaker I sincerely hope these are the last erm... boundary changes we have to debate. I mean it has been referred to that we might have to do them again, I sincerely hope we don't have to go through this process again. In fact I suspect on June the ninth even the wipe out of the Conservative party in the European elections may make even those members that side think... that in order to say their own skins in the future... they will actually have to start to think about a fairer electoral system and indeed there will be a unified system on the way... forced by Europe on this house... if we do not take it upon ourselves to do so and it will be our own fault that we've shirked our responsibilities in my view to actually take it on board. As my honourable friend said from the front bench, the Labour party is absolutely firmly committed now both by the voices of the leadership and the votes and the resolutions at our party conference that we are in favour of a proportional representation system for the European parliament and I hope... that when the elections come... Mr Deputy Speaker, and people will be arguing about why they're voting for Europe on June the ninth in one boundary as opposed to another and why they've got erm... erm different rules for this election of course as indeed for the last European election because the registration will be different, allowing all kinds of erm... how can I put it foreigners in inverted commas, to vote in our elections in this country because it is the European elections that we will actually put the point across that er for the future there will be different arrangements made indeed. The second point I want to er make Mr Deputy Speaker... wholly relating to this erm... er clutch of er orders of which er eighteen plus the er the schedule which the minister didn't have time to go through in great detail, is the thrust of why I put the amendment down... erm in fact that this order should not be er erm... approved indeed until the citizens of Gibraltar have been... and able to be represented in the European parliament. Now I know that's not selected and I don't make any... complaint about that erm far from it er I would not complain ever against the chair but I did introduce erm... well I don't and I wouldn't but I erm introduced the erm first reading of a bill on this matter yesterday. M Mr Deputy Speaker, you will have seen if you read these er... orders in front of us today running to at least er I reckon about ten thousand words, but by and large, all and sundry are going to be bote, er going to be out of vote on June the ninth, citizens of the European union and the minister has actually said on one or two occasions, all citizens of the union, well it is not true... that all citizens of the union will be able to vote on er June the ninth. I'll grantcha... if you're a citizen of the union living in South America, the West Indies or the Pacific and you happen to be a member of the French... colonies, you'll have a vote in the European parliament in the elections. But if you happen to be a citizen of the union... a citizen of the European union, a member of the only mainland European colony... belonging to this country namely Gibraltar, you don't have a vote. Now I don't think that's right, fair or democratic and if we've shied away from it for years handling this issue and now we're in the position where this house has total responsibility... for the thirty thousand citizens in total of Gibralt it's not the electorate, the total population, thirty thousand and we continued to deny them vote yet they are citizens of the European union under our own legislation and accepted as such by the European parliament and it is wholly wrong Mr Deputy Speaker that the boundaries that we're discussing in this bill were not drawn so that and it could easily have been done,... that we could have incorporated the twenty odd thousand European union citizens of Gibraltar who do wish to be part of Spain and won't be for fifty years or more until it's been a democracy that long, but to give them the right to vote. To give them the right to vote by absorbing them into one of the English constituencies and it could have easily been done. I accept completely what the honourable member for erm Truro... Truro actually said in his speech just er that he just made, absolutely right that the cultural and the geographical identity of people matters so far as the European parliament is concerned and in respect of our responsibility, the responsibility of this house to citizens of Gibraltar. It's wrong, Mr Deputy Speaker, if they're living in this country erm on a semi-permanent basis and happen to have been here last October they'll have a vote... so will any everybody else who's a citizen of the European union, so will peers of the realm who happen to be living... elsewhere whether they're in this country or outside this country under these regulations and previous regulations, have a vote in the European elections and I think it's wholly wrong that erm... citizens of other European countries... namely France because that's the one and it's... remarkable is it not that France is the one that's gonna be the cause of this whole edifice collapsing if we don't submit to their extra demands but citizens of France... who are citizens living in their colonies, as I've said in South America, the West Indies and the Pacific, will have a vote in the European elections on June the ninth and yet we have got citizens for whom we are responsible for in this house, we cannot shirk it onto anyone else, we deny them the responsibility and I think it's about time the house addressed this matter. [speaker002:] Mr Teddy Taylor. [Taylor:] Mr Deputy Speaker. I just wanted to say three brief things about the boundaries, before doing so I think I may have to declare... a personal interest. I have to tell the house I have in fact... put my name forward to be considered... as a candidate to stand... to stand for Conservative party in the new constituency of South Essex. It's just possible Mr Deputy Speaker, it's just possible I may not be selected for all kinds of reasons but if I was selected it might at least give the people of that lovely part of the world the chance of having... the referendum they never had over Maastricht because of the shameful way in which the Labour party was not willing to allow the people to have their say on that vital issue. The three issues I want to put forward to the minister are, number one... does this matter?... My honourable friend the member for has rightly said that only thirty one percent of the people bother to vote and so why be bothering with new things at all. In logic we would say to ourselves... because the Germans are getting more seats, because East Germany is being added to the union, why on earth should Britain get more as well and it seems very difficult to explain why we should have extra seats at all. The other factor we should also bear in mind is the great majority of the people are not only not interested, they're basically hostile the whole business... and I think that members may not have really noticed if they looked at the European newspaper, the highest ever figure, fifty three percent of all the people of Britain are now totally and completely opposed to the whole business of the E C, they don't think it's a good idea. So why should we have new boundaries.... There is of course a special interest in South Essex where the people are concerned that while the government wanted to give... aid to South Essex because of its unemployment, this was unfortunately stopped by commissioner Mr and also of course by commissioner Mr Milan solely on their decisions and this is a fact that all the papers... assisted area status was put forward by the government for South Essex. It was also of course, we were put forward for objective two, this was turned down by these two commissioners simply because they sliced off two percent of the application. So there is a special interest of course in South Essex. But the viewpoint I would like to ask the minister, it's a very important one is, can you give us any more assurance... about whether this is actually going to happen? Has he been in touch with the French government? It's very important indeed that people for example in Southend on Sea... should know where they're going. If this new regulation comes through they'll be part of a new seat but if in fact they don't have this regulation come into effect they'll belong to another s and when you've had in fact in Southend say... the lowest recorded percentage voting of any constituency in England at the last Euro elections I think it's terrible important we should in fact explain to people whether this is likely to happen. I think that people are getting very concerned indeed over how the French government are basically disrupting so many worthwhile things for silly reasons. We had the G A T talks held up for a lengthy period simply because the French wanted even more cash for agriculture... and of course they got it and it's rather silly when we're spending two hundred and fifty million pounds a week on dumping and destroying food. We agreed to give more money to the French for agriculture. But in the case of these boundaries. Of course certainly. [speaker001:] On that very point sir I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving way but would he not agree with me that actually the failure of G A T at the end was that by which Caribbean bananas failed to be protected. Mr Deputy Speaker I I wouldn't be in order to go into this but I don't agree at all, as the honourable gentleman's well aware, that filthy protectionism of the C A P forces up prices of food for the average family in Britain by twenty eight pounds a week. [speaker002:] I must insist we get back to the boundaries, I've repeatedly had to do so this afternoon I would have thought it that the message would have got over to me honourable members before now. Sir Teddy Taylor. [Taylor:] Absolutely right Mr Deputy Speaker and I just wish that members wouldn't raise these irrelevant points. What I do say to the honourable gentleman is... his argument is rubbish, bad for the third world, bad for the people of Europe and outside Mr Deputy Speaker I'd be glad to give him his answer although quite rightly to say I can't give it here. But this particular case Mr Deputy Speaker what we want to know from the minister is... on these new boundaries what do we actually have to do? My understanding is that the European parliament has got so many buildings now including a great new building at... Brussels built at huge cost, enormous cost and a new building they want to build at Strasbourg. They're now paying rentals of twenty four million pounds a year. Now quite frankly Mr Deputy Speaker, if we want these new constituencies, including South Essex, it seems we're going to have to say to the French they can have lots and lots of money to build lots and lots of new buildings for this rather ridiculous parliament and quite honestly Mr Deputy Speaker, members tonight in voting on the new boundaries will really have to decide what we want to do. Are we simply to chuck out these extra six constituencies and say no to the French, we're not going to agree to extra silly expenditure or are we in fact going to cave in as we've done so often. I think members should bear in mind the costs of caving in to French blackmail. We did it over G A T at great expense to the people of this country and of Europe, great damage to the third world. It seems if we agree to these new constituents coming through, we'll only do it by having additional buildings which are utterly wasteful and quite honestly Mr Deputy Speaker, I think you'll your constituents a very distressed indeed about the waste, the fraud and the mismanagement of the E C, of course Sir. [speaker001:] I'm most grateful to the honourable gentleman er of course these buildings are all related to the orders were discussing in order that M E Ps can be elected in the first place and is it not interesting to note that if agreement can't be reached as indeed is the position of the moment er in u what is called the European union over where actually the parliament is going to sit. One would have thought the agreement could be reached easily on that matter. What on earth is the possibility of reaching agreement on much more substantial matters? A aren't we supposed to believe this European union is won, that it's all unanimous on the rest of it, there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that, even when it comes to where... the M E Ps should actually sit. How right you are Mr Deputy Speaker, of course I couldn't go into this because it's out of order but on the other hand I would simply say to the honourable gentleman if he looks at the basic policies, the basic flaw of the E C is it can't solve problems and all these new M E Ps we're thinking of sending over... I think we should bear in mind the problem, they're going over to something... where problems can't be solved. The ideal example of course the C A P, we've had reform after reform but nothing happens. The final point Mr Deputy Speaker and of course the honourable gentleman knows this is absolutely right, expenditure at an all time high, mountains at an all time high and also of course the gap between consumer prices and world prices the highest ever recorded. As the Secretary of State for foreign affairs said to me, twenty eight pounds a week extra per family, including the honourable gentleman's constituents. [speaker002:] really it's er testing my patience now I'm afraid. I must insist the honour honourable gentleman and interventions too... should be in accordance with the with the debate and wi o o on the boundaries, so Teddy Taylor. [Taylor:] Mr Deputy Speaker how right you are Mr Deputy Speaker, I've been trying very hard methodically to stick these regulations, unfortunately when you get members ask you direct questions... if one doesn't get any kind of answer it gives the impression you're ignoring them. What I can say to the honourable gentleman who I know always attends these European debates with great regularity, I'll be only too glad to speak to him outside as well as the honourable gentleman to try and clarify these matters. The final point I want to make Mr Deputy Speaker which I think is very, very important indeed, bearing in mind that fact that so few people bothered to vote in these is... is there any possibility that before these regulations come into effect... we can have at the same time, a little pamphlet put out saying exactly what these additional M E Ps and the existing ones actually can do. I think quite honestly in the progress of democracy, people sometimes gain the impression that the European parliament can do things it can't do. I know a lot of people who study it carefully take the view if it closed down tomorrow nobody would notice apart from the taxi drivers in Strasbourg. But the kind of things people write about now will say... can we do anything about the export of live cattle? The answer's no. Can we stop the Euro plug? Of course not it's going through majority vote in the European council. So therefore Mr Deputy Speaker in conclusion, what I'd say to the minister is, number one do we really need this order at all? because why should we have extra seats just because Germany are getting more. Secondly are we going to cave in to French blackmail again and what will it cost us, and thirdly if we're going to have even more people going to Strasbourg or to Brussels or to anywhere else, isn't it about time we tried to save the people of Britain who are getting more and more worried and concerned and perplexed about E C, particularly in places like Harrow where they take a special interest in public affairs. What they want to know is what are they actually going to do? Would it make any difference if there wasn't a European parliament at all? [speaker002:] Sir Geoffrey Holn. [Holn:] Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm delighted to once again have the opportunity of following the honourable member for Southend in a debate about European matters. I wish him well in his er efforts to become a candidate in the forthcoming European elections. I'm also looking forward to seeing a copy of the election manifesto on which he fights... those elections and er er how it will be possible for the Conservative party to er put forward a manifesto that he is comfortable with and also a manifest that the honourable member for say Old Bexley and Sidcup is similarly comfortable with but er no doubt that's a matter for the Conservative party. The great advantage of having a fixed date er for these European elections on the ninth of June, a date that's been well known for a considerable time now, should be the certainty for the electorate, that they know not only the date of that election but the geographical boundary er of the constituency in which they live er the candidates that they can choose from and of course in relation to European elections, the number of er members of the European parliament that there will be representing the United Kingdom. But even if we agree this order tonight... none of those issues will actually be clearly resolved... er, there is a temptation and I regret that the honourable member for Southend succumbed to this, there's a temptation to blem blame the French and the French government for this present state of uncertainty. Er, but that assertion needs to be examined just a little more closely because the British government are not without blame in relation to this matter, er... the issues er affecting these forthcoming elections should have been resolved at the Edinburgh summit during the presidency of the British government. They should have been resolved in December nineteen ninety two because it was decided at that summit that there would be eighteen extra seats for er the then er united Germany. That there would be an extra six seats for France, Italy and the United Kingdom. But in addition the British government went along with the er demand by the French government that they should recognise Strasbourg as a meeting place for the European parliament in perpetuity. The British government agreed to that and it's that matter that now causes the present difficulties and uncertainties. John Major came back from the Edinburgh summit and he told this house that he was entirely happy with the his negotiation. That he was entirely happy with the results of that summit. But in so doing the Prime Minister overlooked two crucial aspects of what was decided at that summit. Firstly he overlooked the fact that the European parliament had consistently voted for Brussels as a meeting place. That the European parliament in fact led by Conservative members of the European parliament very often on this issue... had argued strongly that Brussels should be a single meeting place for the European parliament. There are members of the European parliament who s s support Strasbourg as a meeting place clearly, but the majority do not, the majority want to meet in a single city... and in so doing the majority have accepted that there should be a new European parliament building in Brussels and that European parliament building now operates. It operates however on a very limited basis in the course of nineteen ninety four it's likely that there will only be eight half day meetings of the full European parliament in Brussels. So the second factor that the Prime Minister overlooked is that the existing chamber in Strasbourg is simply not large enough to accommodate the... extra numbers of Euro MPs who will be elected to the European parliament, not so much as a result of the Edinburgh agreement, but in fact as a result of the... er enlargement that is in prospect. Again something that the... government have strongly supported. Now, given that the government's support of the idea of Strasbourg as being a permanent place of meeting for the European parliament. It's proper that we should be asking in the context of these proposals for... boundary changes, affected as they are by the decision of the er... first of all the French national assembly and now the French government to... make life difficult for the other member states as far as the... ratification of these proposals are concerned, it's right that we should be asking what is the position of the British government in relation to these matters. I I asked the er the minister earlier about this question and I appreciate his difficulties being a home office minister rather than a foreign office minister and I quite understand his reluctance to er... stray too far from his departmental portfolio but the reality is that the British government agreed that the European parliament should continue to meet in Strasbourg but we've heard nothing from the minister as to where the money should come from er in order to make that commitment a reality because I'm sure that every member opposite would say that the uncertainty about the present boundaries is not the er responsibility of the British government, that it's a matter for the French government to sort out which boundaries er will be in place in the United Kingdom by June the ninth, the date of the European elections, but the reality is that the British government have gone along with the arrangement for having Strasbourg recognised as a er seat for the European parliament. But they've gone along with it without recognising that there will be a cost and members opposite have consistently criticised the European parliament for having a number of buildings from which to operate. They're right to criticise the European parliament for that. That's no making of the European parliament, the European parliament will be delighted to hold its meetings in the new building in Brussels. Er but the truth of the matter is that the British government would not. [speaker002:] interesting but when are we gonna hear something about the boundaries. Mr Geoffrey Holn. [Holn:] I I'm grateful Mr Deputy Speaker and I I will certainly er stay in order but... the British electorate coming up to June the ninth and the European er elections will not know even if we pass these particular proposals tonight er in which constituencies they will be voting and if I may give an illustration as the honourable member for Truro did er er as far as his European constituency is concerned er the European constituency of Derbyshire Ashfield will d be divided into three different directions as the result of this particular order in council if we pass it tonight. There will be a a a series of new constituencies created across the East Midlands. The electorate will expect to know who the candidates are... in those er er particular constituencies. Indeed the political parties preparing for those elections are in the process of selecting the candidates... er there will in fact be an extra constituency in the East Midlands as a result of this particular order in council er and indeed the political parties at some stage will have to select new candidates for the six extra seats across the united kingdom. That process is under way and the processes of political parties in choosing candidates are an important part of our democratic process. If that is the case that each of the political parties, as I assume is the case for... er the Conservative party, I know it to be the case of the Labour party I assume the same is true for the Liberal Democrats and other parties represented in this house, that they undertake the very considerable organisational er er process of selecting candidates only to find a few weeks before June the ninth, that as a result of the difficulties that I've described as far as the French government attitude towards these elections is concerned, that er in fact we have to revert to the existing arrangements and that we cannot have these new er... boundaries in place. That will cause astonishing confusion to the electorate. It will something which... the government will seek er to blame on the French and therefore Mr Deputy Speaker I do think it important that the record is set straight er as far as the French government are concerned. The British government er not only went along with this agreement at the time of the Edinburgh summit, they positively endorsed this arrangement er as being something that they er strongly supported and urged upon other member states in the European community er and that I think is a relevant matter with respect er Mr Deputy Speaker, I I appreciate that er there are other issues relating to these er er constituencies that are of... greater concern perhaps to er honourable and right honourable members but this question of... who actually is to pay for any new building in the European parliament is something that I believe the government cannot avoid. I appreciate the minister's difficulty representing the Home Office with no... specific responsibility for these matters as far as er er Europe is concerned er but nevertheless this is a matter that does affect the electorate and one that I think the house should take er notice of. I'm grateful Mr Deputy Speaker. [speaker002:] Morgan. [Morgan:] Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Erm I'm er rising to take the opportunity to sum up the debate er for those of us on this side of the house and to say that on this side of the house we do... welcome these orders actually coming through, delayed though they are and er besmirched though they are by the usual examples of government incompetence in failing to send them to the scrutiny committee in the proper manner to allow the usual processes to take place but wi that's par for the course these days. I want to welcome obviously particularly er the order relating to Wales because it confers on Wales er one additional seat, giving us... five altogether because of the rise in the Welsh population over the last ten years and that er although Wales was under represented under the previous erm... er... you know distribution of seats which gave us only four... we will be slightly over represented when we have five because you simply can't have four and a half seats, it's got to be one or the other but since the Welsh population is continuing to rise very rapidly then it is likely that that will be put right. I mean the Welsh population in percentage terms is now rising more rapidly than that of England and therefore by the year two thousand and one when the next review would take place er we er will certainly fully occupy if you like, that fifth seat in terms of the average size because Welsh Euro constituencies were during the past ten years, very slightly larger on average than those in England and so er... we are moving from under representation to slight over representation for a temporary period er simply because er you know Wales is regarded as indivisible for this purpose and that's why we welcomed this debate. I give way... briefly to the honourable member. [speaker001:] I'm grateful to the honourable member and listening very carefully to this argument. Obviously the integrity of Wales is very important to him otherwise he would p p presumably be prepared to accept that part of England could have gone with one of the new seats. Would he care to address the fact that because these orders are being taken separately for Wales and England it is not possible to make the quota applicable in the same way in the same... parts of the United Kingdom. Wales is being given a quite different quota... to England and because Cornwall is being included in England for this purpose we are being unfairly treated by Wales' being generously treated. Would the honourable member care to... comment on that inequality? [Morgan:] I I obviously Cornwall is a special case which we obviously as our Celtic cousins it is the only non-Anglo Saxon county in England and as a result we feel a very, very strong... erm er almost a kind of Uncle erm Nephew relationship to Cornwall, whereas the Cornish are certainly not Welsh but they're certainly not Anglo Saxon English either. We have a great deal of sympathy er but whereas I don't think some of the ideas that have been floated tonight for a Cornwall and Gibraltar... West seat er or erm any kind of link up between Cornwall and any tail end of a Welsh seat we don't think is practical and I think he's gotta solve this problem er within the confines of Cornwall being regarded as part of England if not Anglo Saxon. That's not a problem that I can actually deal with er but Wales certainly er you know takes the sort of interest in Europe that we have seen from most of the Conservative speakers er in trying to sum up this debate you have to refer to them er of not being able to show, there's a definite sort of anti European theme coming through from most of the speakers from the back benches who've chosen to take part in this debate tonight from the other side and it's difficulty to avoid summing up the debate without some reference to the points that they have made which is in complete contrast to the attitude that we have erm in Wales er towards Europe and that we are. [speaker001:] Poor practices at the bank which the auditors were aware of for years, a crashing indictment er of the auditors. It did, if you look at that report er th th that the curry curry gold or whatever, curry report erm... i i i it shows that B C C I actually provided loads of financial benefits to some of the auditors... er these benefits included loans to two Price Waterhouse partnerships in the Caribbean er in addition it said there were serious questions concerning the acceptance of payment and possibly housing from B C C I and its affiliates by Price Waterhouse partners er the in Grand Caymans er and possible acceptance of sexual favours. The report is more interesting than by the member for South East Derbyshire... er [LAUGHTER] not that there's [] much sex in it but if er er i it's more interesting er sexual favours... provided by B C C I officials to certain persons affiliated er with... the firm. Now... this is an appalling situation, er th the B C C I's books were certified by the auditors as a true and fair record from December nineteenth er December thirty first nineteen er eighty seven forward a and that meant that people had confidence in B C C I, here we're told that the auditors are giving it er a certificate of a a true and fair record er encouraging therefore people to in t to to invest and yet prior to nineteen eighty nine Price Waterhouse knew of gross irregularities er in B C C I's handling of loads, particularly the load to C C A H which was the holding company for First American er bank shares. All this was known to the auditors, they didn't spill the beans. Now why have we not had an inquiry which will bring out what happened in the case of B C C I so we can base proper and effective regulation er on that er in i in in in in inquiry. The government feels it can rely on er auditors to protect the interests of share holders and the creditors and the other stake holders but... I have to tell the minister that that reliance which is now er strengthened by the regulations b by the er the order today has always proved er inadequate in the er in in the past er because poor auditing practices always get covered up, there's no way for anybody to know how bad or how good er the audit is as long as a company... er survives and we haven't developed in this country, the proper institutional framework to regulate auditors er effectively and to actually make them er er accountable. Now and er... I have to point out to minister this side of the house er actually proposed much stronger provisions on er detection of fraud er in at the... the building societies act and the financial services act... er in in... er er er of eighty six... er we have these orders er brought in far too late because the government is continuing to place reliance on an industry and a framework which has a history er of of failure. They can't beat the auditors on effective replacement for... regulation. In the United States quite rightly, state inspectors visit and monitor banks er and that's the only effective way we're going to know what's er w what's going on. There should be such a requirement in Britain, instead of just relying that we are about these orders... er on the... o o on the... er auditors er them... that that that the the themselves.... Er... er [sigh]... er I mentioned er in an earlier interjection the fact that Price Waterhouse in this country er wouldn't give evidence and didn't provide information to Price Waterhouse partners er... er i i in the United States er er the government I think, can only er deal with this by some effective regulation er of auditing er and by some er er effective er independent regulate. There needs to be er a banking commission to take these functions away from a Bank of England performed so poorly er and was shown to have done by the er b by the Bingham report. My own preference is for er... er er er a securities next change commission, an independent commission as in the United States with a banking commission underneath it er an accountancy er commission underneath it, but an effective framework of independent regulators to whom... the auditors can report er when they er wh wh when they found... the they find fraud. My honourable friend from the front benches made the point about the gaps... in er these regulations, they don't cover Lloyds, they don't cover pension schemes, pension funds... they don't cover banks which are domiciled er in the... er in in the United States but er we also have the point which I made in the... interjection to the minister that unless there's a duty to detect fraud er er as well as report it, it's really doubtful if the auditors can perform... er the function. We pointed out them from this side of the house er the local... government's finance act does impose both duties. Now the audit industry was in favour of that at the time because it saw itself as able to get its fingers into local authority audit so they were prepared to accept that they could do it then, it's only now... er [LAUGHTER] when it's proposed [] on what's been their traditional prerogatives, they er er they audit of banks and private sector er er companies that they balk at the proposition and say ooh it's horrendous we can't do it. Well... I have to tell the minister that the firms are advertising for detection services all the time, K P M G... Peter Marwick... advertising this, they will er investigate financial frauds and rectify and recover from them... that requires specialised accounting skills, K P M G forensic accounting offers... experience in the techniques of fraudsters and the procedures er they may have followed. Awareness of the indicators, the possible irregularities, the resources needed for a fast and accurate investigation, experience of the quality of evidence required to support a successful case and the expertise to assembly and present that evidence. We can assist in tracing funds and unravelling the most complex international cases. They can provide all that for a fee... why can't they provide it as a compulsory necessary part er of the service, [LAUGHTER] it wouldn't be [] more expensive the minister claimed, if you do a proper audit it can't be more expensive. Proper audit er is the... effective way er to detect fraud and that needs to be at the... at the er the re requirement er er that we impose er on... and I, as I pointed out er... at the moment the auditors themselves are not being effectively er regulated. Lord Justice er Bingham did say... that the relationship between the client, the auditor and the supervisor er is an issue of policy which is more appropriate for decision by parliament... than the accounting profession and yet er we're still subjecting that to control er by the auditing practices board, not a statutory body er er and it's already told us that it's going to impose passive requirement on auditors er in this very difficult area. Now passive requirements on auditors are just not adequate for the detection of fraud. The draught standard they've put forward states... the duty to make a report direct to a regulator does not impose upon auditors a duty to carry out specific work, no specific work, don't do anything... just go along. That's ludicrous, unless you do the work... you can't make the report. No auditing practices in addition to those carried out in the normal case of auditing the financial statements are carried out. Auditors are not responsible for reporting... on irregulated entities overall compliance with rules with which it is required to comply, that's unlike local government, nor are they required to conduct there work in such a way that there is reasonable certainty that they will discover breaches. [LAUGHTER] They're not... actually required er to go out [] er looking for things, just sit there... be passive er a and it'll all come pouring in, that seems to be the er the. Fraud doesn't work that way, you don't get the fraudsters rushing in and saying here's the evidence Mr auditor, get me. It's all well concealed and unless the auditor has an obligation to actually hunt this down, the kind of white hunter er er of the British economy er [LAUGHTER] then [] er it won't be detected and the passive approach to audit such as the er audit practices board is recommending is simply a recipe for further disasters er and further audit failures. Couple of final points... er Madam Deputy Speaker, er the government should surely have clarified responsibility of auditors. Who are they actually responsible to? To whom do they owe a duty of care? It's no good just saying you can report fraud er to er t t to the regulator, they should also be responsible to the shareholders, the stake holders, everybody involved... er in er er er a company er and in fact er they aren't... they have really responsibility to no one except the directors er... who appoint them, the company share holders are given very little information, the choice of auditors er is firmly in the director's director's hands, the depositors, the consumers, the employees er have no say er in the appointment of er auditors and more important the recent legal cases for instance and the Al Saudi Bank er er and Berg... er sons er and company also... decided that er auditors don't owe a duty of care er to individual shareholders, potential investors, the current or potential creditors er even though that information is supposed to be there to help markets understand what is happening to that committee and the government showed no indication that it wants to reverse these judgements, it should reverse them, there should be specific responsibilities attached to... er auditors to give them a duty of care... er so that we get the information er and... er spend more widely and the share holders and the stake holders know what's going on er er er as well as er... the bank... or the financial... er institution er itself. Now [LAUGHTER] my honourable friend has already quoted er the presence the,o of the department of trade in this er... er pointing out in er... his book er where there's a will there's a corpse er... er that er there shouldn't be a conflict of interest because accountancy firms shouldn't do other work. That should be a paramount objective er in financial institutions because D T I inquiries have indicated er that the work is less adequate er when er they're relying er on... when a man is checking his own figures or those of a colleague, that was er... er in... at the roadships erm re report. There's a who er er a whole series of other reports, Bernhope and Fauder for instance, critical of er audit reports er report in in that context and I have to say to the minister er that none of the auditors criticised by D T I reports over the years have actually be disbarred from er from practice. Now what kind of a sanction is that er to make the auditors actually do the job properly. We need an effective independent regulator, not the mafia regulating mafia and saying it's quite understandable boy, we'll let you off this time which is what happens now er with the Institute of Chartered Accountants er as a recognised supervisory body er in this er in this particular field. We have to have... er an effective control er and discipline er of auditors. The Secretary of State er told me... er that the has been no occasion where criticism from a companies auditors by... my department's inspectors in reports published since June nineteen seventy nine... has led to an audit partner being excluded from membership of a professional accountancy... body, er and no auditor criticised in D T I inspector's reports has been debarred from auditing as a result of information... er in that report. So... bearing in mind the government itself has never iss er initiated any criminal action against auditors criticised in D T I reports, there are no effective sanctions. Now for all those reasons madame speaker, this... these orders er er today are inadequate, too little, too late, we can't vote against them, much as the... the member who preceded me seemed inclined to vote against them and I wish that he had the g er the guts of 'is cu the courage of his convictions er he should vote against them, er we on this side are far more responsible... er than that because to vote against them er might be an indication that we're as much in frau in favour of fraud as members on the other side of the house, er we're not in favour of fraud, we welcome any progress to detection of fraud, even progress that we asked for... five... eight years ago when the relevant legislation was passed. For that reason we have to welcome er the er th th the orders, but they're just not good enough. Here, here. [Betty:] Mr John Greenway. [speaker001:] Er well Madam Deputy Speaker I think erm... that the last half an hour shown that er the quality of debate in this house... er remains extremely high and that even when you have an issue which on the face of it looks to be as dry as dust... er that er there are some honourable members who will pick an argument er when perhaps er on the face of it there ought not to be much of an argument er I can't erm I can't say that erm I agreed with much of what erm the honourable member for Great Grimsby said... er he seemed to imply... er quite early on his er speech that most of the City of London er was collapsing in a sea of sleaze and er... er other other goings on which are extremely... er to be regretted but erm I think we ought to er remind him... er that erm, you know, all all of these four orders er followed the Bingham inquiry into er what happened at B C C I which was not a British bank, was an international bank based erm overseas and I think I'm right in saying this and I'm sure my... honourable friend the minister will confirm when he winds up... er this is the first er such difficulty er that we've experienced for a great length of time. Er, now... the the point I really want to refer to is erm just what role an auditor ought to play er in the er insurance and financial service industry in looking at particular firms, erm... I have several interests which the honourable member for Edinburgh central knows about, er the one that I think is relevant er to tonight is that I am an elected member of the insurance brokers registration council and the way that erm... the way that we regulate insurance brokers erm is laid down by statute but it does actually demonstrate the advantage, the benefit... of erm of having a statutory requirement for audit and for er a proper oversight of what then... follows in terms of the way that the regulator reacts to what the auditor... may say. The purpose of... of these four orders, which I must say I greatly welcome, it is one of the, the most beneficial things to come out of the B C C I er disaster er and er i if I can say in in effectively in answer to to everything the honourable gentleman for Great Grimsby said and he and I have debated on many occasions, if fact usually on the television not on the floor of the house, but er... an an an an because of it for not quite so long either, er but erm th the point I would make to his is that really what he was saying was th that what went wrong with B C C I is that Price Waterhouse knew there was fraud and didn't say so and that wha what Lord Justice Bingham pointed out was that there is a clear conflict of interest between the interest of the client who they work for and the public interest and that what needed, what was needed was some amendment to the banking act to clarify that and that is precisely what... er this order actually does and you can't really er Madam Deputy Speaker, expect anyone to really seriously criticise the government when in actual fact not only have they... come up with the regulation to deal with that but they've also gone further and said we will apply this to financial services and to building societies and to insurance companies as well, just to be absolutely sure. Now I would be the first to admit that I I'm not a judge as accountant, I'm an insurance broker er and erm I don't understand er and I'm not aware of all of the rules and regulations that affect accountants er and affect the way audits are carried out,b but I must say... I was a bit surprised t to hear during the debate, er that that was really what the problem was, the problem with B C C I was this conflict of interest, that fraud was known and it was not declared er and er I think that these er... these regulations should now make that considerably er more clear. The point I I simply wanted to to make which is why I I sat through the debate, erm is the honourable member for Edinburgh Central er in his er speech er which I I must say I did expect, called for stronger regulations, er we had the argument the other week about whether there should be statutory regulations or whether we should make er the er self regulation system that we have with financial services industries work. Erm, I take the view that we ought to try and make the existing arrangements work and we are fast approaching a very key point er in that process erm I understand that on Thursday, er securities and investments board, the board will consider... the er P I A, proposed P I A prospectus and that er within a week or so we shall all be able to to read it and to look at it... erm and the key point, which really is... arises out of what we're discussing tonight, the key point is what regulatory framework should the P I A place on intermediaries and on er life assurance companies, pension funds, financial advisors generally er in order to ensure that the public interest is protected and that if there are potential frauds erm such as the Levitt case... er that we talked about earlier and I think the honourable member in... sort of by implication in terms of er community service, er punishments that he referred to, er had also that in mind, er just what should we do to ensure that if there is malpractice and fraud, it's picked up very, very quickly. Certainly this... order on financial services, helps because it makes absolutely clear that if an auditor sees malpractice and potential fraud he has an obligation and a duty to report it straight away to the regul regulator, but that will help the process. But there will as I my honourable friend knows, there will be quite an argument when we see the prospectus and I haven't had the priv the privilege of seeing it erm although I've had the opportunity to discuss... er its contents with th with the er chairman of the P I A er er and the Chief Executive.... Er it is important I think, that we don't er have too many regulations, that's why I have some sympathy for what my honourable friend, the member for South Hamms, was saying, that we don't er regulate to the point where firms just go out of business and give up, that it's too expensive and it's too burdensome. But that we get a balance right between the amount of regulations an and the cost of it but that it is in a sense, effective and and the plea I would make to my honourable friend when he considers this P I A prospectus and what should be done and wh to what extent the government feels it should support it, is that what we actually want is not a specific requirement that says you've got to have this much, that much capital erm and so on, but that there is... a function, there is a regular audit trail, there is a a regular, annual look at the figures, the accounts of all these intermediaries, er and firms where the difficulty has been... er in the past. Because I I I've said this to him before on on the floor of the house, that is what we are required to do... in the insurance brokers registration council for all insurance broking firms, that is what parliament required in the insurance brokers registration act and it is not an onerous requirement on firms, it is not excessively expensive... so it would meet I believe, any cost compliance test er that erm the er... the D T I might wish to... to insist be carried out. What it does is it means that there is a proper look each year... at the finances of each individual firm... er and er if there are things which are wrong, they are reported straight away and that really I think is the lesser of all of this with B C C I, er that er where things... are not all they should be that they are dealt with and they are reported quickly and these orders,... Madam Deputy Speaker, go a long way to helping to ensure that and for that reason I believe the house should warmly welcome them. [Betty:] Mr Anthony Nelson. [speaker002:] Madam deputy speaker.... This has been a curiously old fashioned debate in some ways with... one hou side of the house calling for more regulation and the other side of the house calling for less regulation and my honourable mem, my honourable friend the member for South Hamms er did say eloquently again this evening. I can say to my honourable friend, the member for Rydale who takes such a close interest and is so... well informed... er on these matters, er I'm very grateful to him for the welcome he's given for the... orders here, he's absolutely right to say that we have gone beyond... er what restrictive called for by Bingham, we have extended it to other sectors in the financial... we welcomed the honourable gentleman from Edinburgh Central that these er orders are in some way... timid, they are what was called for by the treasury... select committee, they are what was proposed er by Bingham and we have er introduced them er here tonight. I say to my honourable friend as far as the P I A's concerned he will have an early opportunity er to consider... er the prospectus on that which is indeed being published er and I take very seriously the point he makes about adequate monitoring procedures and the need for an audit trail. I think that is a central criterion to attach the effectiveness of... self regulating organisations if the the methodical nature of their monitoring er a and the way that that is done and I hope all concerned will consider these matters carefully. My honourable friend the member for... er South Hamms, Madam Deputy Speaker, er gave I thought a a an amusing but perceptive speech about the growth of deregulation, indeed some were saying that deregulation... er is in fact the fastest growing part of bureaucracy... in Whitehall and there have been calls to deregulate the deregulators er, he is of course quite right that Parkinson's theory... can extend in this area and one can find that deregulation acquires a life and momentum erm of its own. But the underlying purpose, that of reducing unnecessary bureaucracy, stripping away the red tape which hinders enterprise and good... er governance in this country, is something that the government is... very committed to and we intend to promulgate that doctrine throughout all the areas and that of course is being taken forward in legislation. As far as er the honourable gentleman for Edinburgh Central is concerned, he said there was a case for a... wider inquiry into the auditing o of companies, well that is not something specifically called for er by Bingham although I... acknowledge that a case can be made for that but I think we want to be extremely careful before extending that... in the way that he and the honourable member for Great Grimsby proposed... beyond the direct er responsibility to the members or the owners of the company. It must be right for auditors to audit and for regulators to regulate and I do not think that it helps the argument for there to be an overlap in responsibilities and in some way, as I say, to turn auditors into... snoopers and narks er er and make more supine one's er regulators. So I I I don't think that there's a case for er widening the er widened inquiry into the auditing of companies. He said there was a case for extending the duty of care of auditors beyond members but this... again was something that Bingham didn't necessary find... er necessary as a result of his inquiry into B C C I. He asked about what material significance meant. That of course is very much set out in the guidelines of the... er sta er statement on auditing er standards. He asked about Lloyds, he is quite right that that is not covered er by these orders but it is the case that it is a condition of the appointment of ordered, er of auditors... into syndicates er that they shall report, they have a duty er to report er where these situations arise. Er, Mr Deputy Speaker I don't have time to deal with the other points but if I've missed anything in particular I will write to honourable members concerned. Can I just finally say that the whole import of the orders is to ensure that they look at the criteria of authorisation, they are concerned with the authorisation of firms which take public deposits and investments and when that is brought into question, when there is evidence to suggest that those criteria are not being adequately med it must be right to impose a non costly duty on the auditors to bring that about, that is what these orders do tonight, I think they're an extremely welcome addition to the stable of measures of regulation and they will improve materially depositor protection. Motion number four the question is the motion on the order paper, say aye. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The leader of the house will put amendments five to seven... informally. Question is the motions on the order papers, say Aye. [speaker001:] Aye [speaker002:] no, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We then move to motion number eight... Mr secretary Redwood to move it. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker I beg to move that the local government finance report Wales nineteen ninety four to ninety five... House of Commons paper number one six eight, which was laid before this house on the thirty first of January, be approved. This report sets out my decisions on the local government revenue settlement for nineteen ninety four five. I understand it will be convenient to discuss at the same time the next motion on the order paper... that the local government finance amendment report Wales nineteen ninety three, ninety four, House of er in i in in in in inquiry. The government feels this house on the thirty, thirty first of January... be approved. This latter one puts right a mistake in the description of the basis... for distributing the distributable amount for ninety three four which was approved by the house on the eighth of February nineteen ninety three. I can assure the house that the amendment in this document does not affect the money authorities should received. Mr Deputy Speaker, I announced my provisional settlement proposals to the house on the thirtieth of November last. I have given careful consideration to the representations I have received on the level of settlement and the views that the local authority associations in coming to my final decisions. I believe that my provisional proposals remain appropriate. I propose to set... total standard spending for nineteen ninety four, ninety five at two thousand seven hundred and four point eight million pounds. This includes the sum of eighty six million for care in the community, it is an increase of four point two percent or over one hundred million pounds extra cash compared with nineteen ninety three, ninety four. [speaker001:] I thank the Secretary of State for giving way, he he did say that erm... er the figures in these report were... in a sense provisional at the end of last year, erm but that he feels... erm, with the passing of time, nothing has happened to change his view. Would he tell us then... what he believes the impact of the... er pay settlements... will have on the spending he's allowed local authorities because it seems to me there must either be a cut in staff... er and a cut in services if they're gonna keep within the the money that he made available... at the time when he wasn't aware of these settlements. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker I I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for posing the central question and I hope in the course of my remarks I will... satisfy the house, if not all Labour members, that the settlement proposals are at is all to the good and delivered by councils throughout Wales and that they offer enough money er to avoid sacking essential staff, certainly the offer enough money to avoid sacking any teacher... who is needed in the classroom. I don't want to see that happen, I trust members of the house don't wish to see it happen. It is up to local authorities, but I believe the extra grant, the extra spending permission, means that a good quality education can be delivered to children in Wales er without it in any way being jeopardised by these proposals and I would illustrate later on in my speech that local government does have considerable flexibility... to spend wisely and well and it has resources at its disposal to do a good job. I give way. [speaker001:] Secretary of State for giving way, but when he made his proni provisional announcement on the er on the total S S A for Wales, was he aware... that the er the various er salary review bodies would be bringing in a er a recommendation which was almost twice the current rate of inflation? [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker, no I did not know the exact amount of the recommendation but I of course assumed there was likely to be some... pay increase and I have made an increase in grant which I am just about to explain to the house which will go some way to meet the requirements of local authorities and there are other... assets and resources they have er which I will illustrate later on in my speech. I propose to provide two thousand four hundred and nineteen point two million pounds in central government support towards this spending, an increase of three point three percent on nineteen ninety three, ninety four. So honourable members opposite will see that that is a good rate of increase compared with the current rate of inflation. The support package will comprise seventeen hundred and forty point one million pounds in revenue support grant. Four hundred and sixty four million in distributable, non-domestic rates and two hundred and fifteen point one million pounds in other revenue grants. Over eighty nine pounds in every one hundred pounds of Welsh local authority expenditure on revenue account will be funded by central government support. This generous level means that Welsh council tax payers benefit from substantially lowered levels of tax than their English counterparts. Welsh tax payers should continue to benefit from relatively low levels of tax next year, assuming sensible budgeting decisions. The revenue settlement is matched by the substantial local government capital settlement for ninety four five which I announced on the thirtieth of November. This totals five hundred and three million pounds in capital grants and crediting approvals, a four percent increase on nineteen ninety three, ninety four. It means welcome permissions to improve capital stock in housing, education and other crucial local government service areas. The Welsh non-domestic rate poundage or the business rate, for nineteen ninety four, ninety five, will increase by one point eight percent in line with inflation to forty four point eight pence. This modest increase, coupled with transitional arrangements announced in the budget, will be of considerable benefit to business. About twenty thousand business rate payers who face the largest increases following the nineteen ninety revaluation, will benefit by five point three million pounds from the transitional changes. This Mr Deputy Speaker, is a decent settlement for local government in Wales. It gives local authorities an additional one hundred million pounds to spend when the low level of inflation is helping them keep down the cost of providing their services. The eighty six million pounds I am providing for care in the community is an increase of almost fifty million pounds on nineteen build on the introduction of the service in ninety three, ninety four year. Since the nineteen ninety to ninety one settlement, revenue resources for local authorities have increased by almost five hundred and thirty million pounds or twenty seven percent.... My provisional settlement proposals were met by some criticisms that they could lead to substantial increases in council tax levels, increases as high as fifteen percent were suggested. Most local authorities have yet to set their budgets but I am glad to report to the house the press reports indicate a far more modest level of increase. Clwyd county council and Cardiff city council are reported to be proposing a reduction in their council taxes. South Glamorgan county council and the Vale of Glamorgan borough council are reported to be planning increases limited to three percent or below. Mr Deputy Speaker it shows it can be done and I hope others will look after the interests of their tax payers as well.... On December the fourteenth I announced my provisional capping criteria. I will give careful consideration to local authority budgets and make my capping decisions in the light of all the information available to me when I've received it. I should like i if I may Mr Deputy Speaker, to commend Welsh billing authorities for their better than expected performance in collecting the council tax. They estimate an overall surplus on collection funds, of seventeen point six million as at the thirty first of March nineteen ninety four. This translates... into an average eighteen pounds reduction in council tax for a band E dwelling which could be passed on to council tax payers in their ninety four, ninety five bills or of course allows them more flexibility in their general financial planning. Local councillors have considerable flexibility in their budgeting. Sums of money I am describing tonight are large, revenue and capital spending combined, of over three thousand million pounds is many times the amount spent by quangos in Wales outside the health service and the grant represents a large share of my total budget for Wales and I hope members opposite are not suggesting I should cut spending on health, that is a vital service which I thought they supported as well. Flexibility is increased by the payment of rate support grant and distributable non-domestic rates as a block grant. It is then for local authorities to decide how to spend the money their given in line with their priorities and their local needs. Council can raise income through fees and charges, they have balances which they can choose to spend or retain,... they have assets which they can use for their service provision or they can sell to raise capital. They have large administrations which they should always be looking to make more effective and in an area like education, there are surplus faces to be removed, energy to be used more efficiently and services to be contracted out if this can provide better value for local tax payers. [speaker001:] I apologise for interrupting him. I wonder, he's no doubt aware of the quite serious problems facing the South Wales police and the funding of the local authorities of the police. Is there any hope that he as Secretary of State along with the Home Office minister, might get round a table with South Wales police to sort the problems out because on the ground the seriousness is about the growing... problems of crime and law and in fact the lack of in fact, policeman on the beat. So I hope he will be able to accept this... offer or request on behalf of many, many constituents of mine and I'm sure of others too. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker I'm just about to come on the... South Wales police but I will answer the point... directly, er I and my honourable friend the parliamentary secretary are always willing to discuss with local government, matters relating to local government finance and we have done so over the months leading up to this settlement and my honourable and right honourable friends in the Home Office are always willing to discuss matters on the police er where they are important and warrant a ministerial meeting and that again has happened recently with the Home Office min minister discussing this very issue. The last thing I want to see is local authorities skimping on the police. The budget problems of the South Wales police have been much in the news. Recently published audit commission profiles show that the South Wales police expenditure per head of population is above average for comparable forces and more police are on duty than for similar forces. I trust that local authorities and the police authorities will make sensible decisions about future services. I think most of the issues that have been raised tonight already, are ones for the police authority and I hope they will get on with their job. Where necessary police stations should be kept open and enough policemen should be made available for beat duties and for detection work, I give way. [speaker001:] Wherever blame might lie as regards the situation with the South Wales constabulary... at the present time, surely it would be madness to merge Gwent police force with the South Wales police force at this unfortunate time because Gwent has a very, very good record and we want it to stay like that. [Spicer:] Er Mr Deputy Speaker I I will make sure that the Home Office sees the transcript of this debate and I have... noted the report the honour the matter the honourable gentleman has raised. Mr Deputy Speaker... the last thing also that I wish to see is local authorities. [speaker001:] I'm most grateful to my right honourable friend er for giving way. Would he not agree er that the fact that erm... the Home Office plan to give... allow for seven million pounds extra er for the police budget in W in Wales whereas in actual fact local government has chosen er to to give only two point two million er through the police budget er is a disgrace and reflects very badly on the running of the police authority and on the chairmanship of that committee. Mr Deputy Speaker my honourable friend is right that the allocation of budgets is a matter for the local authority and that is a matter for public debate er in the council chamber. Thank you. of state therefore explain why in England it's prof possible to get a straight answer from the Secretary of State with the figures of the S S A for the last five years, for this year and for next year and it's not possible to get that for Wales either from the Home Secretary or from the honourable gentl right honourable gentleman. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker, as the honourable members knows, our S S A calculations are on... slightly different basis from England as we set out in this report and we do believe that local authorities should have the maximum flexibility to make their own decisions and it is therefore a matter for local debate. Whether they value their police service enough or not and whether it needs more money or not to do a good job or whether the authorities should take a look at how it is being run. But Mr Deputy Speaker I. [speaker001:] I I take it that honourable gentle right honourable gentleman is making an implicit criticism of his colleague the Secretary of State of the environment... er, er and the Home Secretary who has responsibility can produce figures for England. He cannot produce them for Wales, why is that? It's surely because the right honourable gentleman is not providing the money to Welsh local authorities. Here, here. [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker,tha that was a fatuous point. I've already answered the underlying question, I do believe that they should have the maximum discretion and then they should be answerable for their decisions to their local electors who want a good police service and want a good education service and there is money there for them to do it... if that is their wish. For the last thing I wish to see... alongside skimping on the police is local authorities reducing the number of teachers where they are needed to teach pupils. Because I am delighted to report that education standards in Wales have been rising over the last few years following the introduction of the national curriculum and our other reforms. But as I said in a speech recently, we have a lot further to go, more progress to make and that is very much at the top of my agenda of, the agenda of my right honourable friend the education minister. Local authorities in Wales have reduced the level of rent arrears by over ten percent between nineteen ninety, ninety one and ninety two ninety three but there is more progress to be made. Since nineteen eighty seven the number of vacant local authority dwellings has also fallen and these are the cuts I do want, cuts in the number of empty houses, cuts in the rent arrears, cuts in the tax arrears so that the money is there to spend on the services... that people want. I am pleased to report that care in the community has in general, been successfully introduced. It is a good example of a major service being given to local government so that local rather than national democracy can determine the details of its future and how it flies in the face of the criticisms of the party opposite, that we're always taking important things away from local government. Here is one of the fastest growing services in the public sector over the decade to come and we've entrusted local government with it. I give way. [speaker001:] I'm very grateful, I'm very grateful to the Secretary of State.... Could he just make sure though... that in his plans by defining community care and by by that I mean social care as opposed to health care, in a certain way. What he might be doing is to actually seek to increase the proportion of our very vulnerable population into the means testing category and that what he's got to watch is that he doesn't end up in a position... whereby defining health care in one way and social care very carefully. Health care will then be denied its proper role and that is clearly seen in the discharge of elderly people into the community and a point he knows well because he's heard it from me before, without the necessary disabled facilities being in place for those elderly people and it is his department that decided to put the disabled facilities grant in the basic credit allowance to compete against over local authority priorities in that section. Why doesn't he put it back into the special credit allowance? [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker, members opposite speak with forked tongues. They first of all say they want local government to be more responsible, to be more trusted, to have more freedom, I then give them that freedom and then they complain that I'm not telling local government what to do and I don't intend to lay down every detail of what they should do. I, like the honourable member, happen to believe the point he's made is right, that this should be a high priority, the money is there for local government to do it, I've explicitly recognised the needs of the disabled in my settlement for next year by increasing it substantially and I hope local government will respond and do the decent thing. I want to see elderly people looked after well and if they can be looked after at home all well and good but of course they need the facilities. I give. [speaker001:] I I'm very grateful to the Secretary of State, erm is he aware that... increasingly over this winter there have been examples of... homes for the elderly and particularly nursing homes in the private sector... without casting a valued judgement on the role of the private sector, er homes that are finding difficulty in the filling the beds because of policy that is being pursued in care in the community. Does he realise that some of these homes er are perhaps have only half their beds full which means that there are vulnerable people there, uncertain as to whether their home, their only home is going to remain er in existence. Can he give some assurances that there will be coherent planning to make sure that there are no vulnerable people er affected in this way, in the transition over to care in the community? [Spicer:] Mr Deputy Speaker that's exactly what the authorities are asked to make sure about and of course they must have sensible plans so that there are always beds and facilities for those who need them, but in a way it's a success of care in the community that that more elderly people are being looked after in their own homes and so we've arrested the very rapid growth in permanent residential places which was occurring before the policy was introduced... er, as we now see, despite some gloomy forewarning, local authorities have in general managed well in the first year of their responsibilities, they've examined thousands of cases and many people have been helped to make decisions about their own futures. Many are able to continue living as they wish in their own homes. This has meant a fall in the demand for residential care which had been increasing rapidly in previous years and it is the duty of the relevant authorities to plan future provision er so that everything will work smoothly for those most in need. I trust local authorities will respond positively to this settlement. I believe in good local government. I believe that councils have an important role to play. I am disturbed if I learn of cases of alleges impropriety or irregularity in their financial performance or in their accounting. I trust all parties in this house will unite, not only in believing in local government but in agreeing that local government should set and maintain the highest possible standards of conduct... when spending the very substantial sums of money parliament votes to it. This settlement Mr Deputy Speaker, is a large settlement. It is a good settlement in an area of low inflation. It gives local government in Wales the money it needs to provide high quality services and to get on with the job. It need not lead to high tax increases, nor to the redundancy of crucial workers. Well run councils will flourish as a result of this settlement and I offer them every encouragement to do so. Mr Deputy Speaker I commend it to the house. [Betty:] Question is the motion on the order paper, Mr Ron Davies. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Taylor:] Thank you very much Mr Deputy Speaker. I think we've seen a a new model Secretary of State this evening. He er came to the despatch box and he talked about... conciliation. He said that he had taken into account the views of local authorities put to him since he met them last year, he might have taken in to account of course, we didn't accept any of the er... er observations. He commended er local authorities, he commended Labour controlled local authorities... for their collection rate of the... council tax and for... their collection rate of rents. He actually praised the value of democratic local government and he compared that... with his own quango state.... It really is er a new model Secretary of State although the fact of the matter is Mr Deputy Speaker, that er... his reality of course is quite different from his and the reality is that this is... a poor settlement for local government in Wales and it's been roundly condemned, not least by the county councils, who is the largest... employers in Wales will have to face the... considerable burden imposed on them by the government's acceptance of the public sector er review body recommendations but without the additional cash to meet those awards and what this settlement er does represent Mr Deputy Speaker is a further step along the road that we've been travelling since nineteen seventy nine. The financing of local government is er again circumscribed, local government's ability to respond to the needs of the community it serves as it and its electors deem appropriate is being curtailed yet again and of course local government is losing its independence to central government and this centralising tendency which this settlement further represents is one of the most pernicious and corrosive characteristics of the modern Conservative party. It won't be lost on anyone concerned with the application of this settlement... that despite the Secretary of State's earlier remarks as the democratically controlled public sector, represented by local government, faces further cuts. The undemocratic sector represented by the one hundred and eleven Welsh quangos... has seen budget increases. In the case of the major bodies the D B R W, the W G A and the C B D C of over eight percent. I don't think either, given the succession of scandals and the aura of sleaze hanging over the Secretary of State's quango sector... that anyone would deny that in terms of value for money and financial probity, direct democratic control is a far better watchdog than the financial control systems of the Welsh office. [speaker001:] Here, here. [Taylor:] The total standard spending... of two thousand seven hundred and five million pounds is one hundred and five million pounds above the settlement for the current financial year. The Secretary of State has argued that this is nearly a four percent increase. In the stricter sense it is nearly a four percent increase... but that statistic itself is absolutely meaningless. In the current financial year... budgets... what authorities would have spend in delivering services, not what the Welsh office consider they should spend, were two thousand six hundred and eighty eight million pounds and against that... the next years settlement which we're debating tonight, represents only a point six percent increase. Even that is not itself a true reflection of reality. The current settlement, as the Secretary of State indicated, includes provision for community care... to the tune of eight six million pounds. That itself is some forty million pounds below the association of Welsh counties assessment of what is actually needed to meet the needs of the community and it is in any event not available for general spending. So if that figure is removed from the spending total the current increase is only two point three percent above the settlement for nineteen ninety three, ninety four... and being twenty eight million pounds, or one percent, below... the current years budgets actually represents a four percent real terms reduction... and that is a measure of the cuts which the government this year wishes to force on local government. Under any circumstances this would be difficult enough but this year Welsh local government has to suffer the commu the cumulative burden of previous years cuts. It also has to struggle with the social and economic consequences of the recession vested on the country by central government and of course it is expected this year to meet the costs of what is an unwanted and will be a costly and unsatisfactory reorganisation of local government. Predictably, while the government with one hand is distorting their expenditure and creating unnecessary expense, it is with the other reducing the discretion available to councils to raise their own resources. The capping limits, unfair and arbitrary as they are, are again imposing a straight jacket. All Welsh counties for instance are limited to increasing their budgets of one point seven... on point seven five percent over nineteen ninety three, ninety four... are as the cities of Cardiff and Swansea and the borough of Newport... and it is this cap of one point seven percent as my honourable friend for Cardiff South and Penarth has pointed out, which is at the route of the funding problems of the South Wales police authority area. At the same time... yes I I'll happily give way to the honourable gentleman. [speaker001:] Specific point of the South Wales police authority's difficulties, would he not say that at least they're partly due to the police authority believing that it was going to be er underspending in the current year and being out in its calculations by about two million pounds, wouldn't you think that that was at least a factor? [Taylor:] Well I I think that the honourable gentleman really must accept that er... coming from a party which is er in office in er in the Welsh office and has er... two hundred million, two hundred and eight million pounds I think unaccounted for last year, it really ill becomes him... er to lecture, to lecture anybody. The fact of the matter is that er... the fact of the matter is that there has been... er a c cumulative problem of er of expenditure in the South Wales police authority area stemming back to nineteen eighty eight and they have faced an under funding of thirty eight million pounds since that time. They've had er enormous difficulties and er the honourable gentleman will er know that the... South Wales police authority committee, its officers and its Chief Constable have er visited parliament er to put their case to members representing the South Wales police authority area and indeed to er Earl Ferrers the minister er responsible for the police and they certainly haven't had any er criticism made of them by his own government and if er he believes that there is a criticism I would suggest that he takes... a leaf out of the book of his er, his right honourable friend the Secretary of State and refers the matter so that it can be properly audited and er I think the honourable gentleman knows that when that is done he will see that there is no blame attached whatsoever to the members or the officers of the police authority. But I will give way if he wants to develop his point further. [speaker001:] Is the honourable gentleman unaware that the district auditor... has in fact indicated that there is a total lack of accountability or any sort of proper financial control in the police authority. Is he as the shadow spokesman for Wales, unaware of that? [Taylor:] The er the honourable gentleman might well have seen a copy of the er... the provisional report which has been prepared but that provisional report is er the same basis as the report er which was presented to er Westminster city council er and then we weren't talking er a difficulty of er two million pounds created, created as a direct result of government under funding of the police authority there,... we were talking about the expropriation of millions of pounds to line the pockets and to further the political interests of his party and I did notice the honourable gentleman er... vociferous in his condemnation of Westminster city council or any of the other tory controlled city councils. But of course, of course is if there is any evidence whatsoever er of financial mismanagement in the police authority it is a matter which has to be properly investigated. It has to be the subject of a proper report er by the er audit commission, but the district auditor and if they find that there has been er... er wrong doing, if they find that there has been any er wilful neglect or if they find there has been any er unacceptable er maladministration then I will certainly join with the er the Secretary of State in condemning that. But I of course have the advantage of being one who condemns that degree of maladministration whether it applies in the democratic sector or in the quango sector and unfortunately, unfortunately despite all the corruption, I I'll give way to the honourable gentleman if I could just er finish the point I'm making, unfortunately despite all the corruption and all the mismanagement and all the fraud for which the Secretary of State is personally responsible as Secretary of State.

[speaker001:] Order, order. Questions for the Secretary of State for employment. Cheryl Gillan. [Gillan:] Number one Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] Madam Speaker we estimate that British employers spend... er approximately twenty thousand million pounds a year on training. The last recorded figure in nineteen eighty seven was eighteen thousand million pounds. [Betty:] Miss Gillan. [Gillan:] Thank you Madam Speaker. I thank my right honourable friend for that reply. Would he agree with me that one of the major contributing factors to our rapid recovery from recession in advance of all the other European communities. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Very good point. [Gillan:] Has been that British industry has continued to maintain its investment in training. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. I agree with my honourable friend... er one of the... er satisfactory features of the C B I er survey last week, one of the many, was that eighty four percent of firms er in the U K intend to increase or maintain their spending on training and of course she's absolutely right, they will be the firms that will benefit most from that investment in training as we continue through recovery into growth in the longer term. [Betty:] Barry Jones. [Jones:] But the right honourable gentleman will recollect that in aerospace... in steel... and in textiles there are now no large apprenticeship schools. When in his own ministerial memory he may remember that there were. What action is he taking to specifically gain... er activities that will ensure there will be apprenticeship schools. From him we have... too many press releases and not enough action. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. It would destroy jobs, er all I would say to the honourable gentleman is that he will have noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer er used one of the announcements in his budget statement on the thirtieth of November last year er to announce that we shall be introducing a modern apprenticeship scheme. Hear, hear. Which will be available for school leavers next year and that the Chancellor has allocated... in the department of employment budget, for training credits and the new modern apprenticeship er over a billion pounds er which will be utilised to introduce those apprenticeships. What I very much hope is that industry will now respond by coming forward, particularly this year with trail blazing apprenticeship schemes that will ensure that we have got the most relevant structures in place for those modern apprenticeships next year. [Betty:] Oliver Heal. [Heal:] Would my right honourable friend care to pay tribute to the work of the training and enterprise councils in... helping women particularly who want to get back into work by providing child care facilities er and would he also like to comment on the threshold scheme in Northampton which he visited last week which is an example of partnership between the public sector, the private sector, the TECs er promoting this sort of work. [speaker001:] I'm very grateful to my honourable friend. I do indeed pay tribute... to over one thousand two hundred top business and community leaders who serve on our eighty two training and enterprise councils and who indeed is quite right in... er earmarking, do a... tremendous amount of work on equal opportunities. The child care initiative launched by my predecessor involving expenditure of over forty million pounds over the period is giving training and enterprise councils the opportunity to come forward with some very imaginative and innovative schemes. One of those I saw in Northampton was extremely impressive and is founded as my honourable friend says, on positive partnership. [Betty:] Tony Loyd. [Lloyd:] Madam Speaker. What what actually would shift the Secretary of State from his, his mood of complacency. Between nineteen ninety... and nineteen ninety two over a million skilled workers were put out of work in this economy, nearly half a million semi skilled workers lost their jobs. The number of people trained in industry dropped by three hundred thousand and the Secretary of State tells the house that this is a success. This isn't the opposition talking the country down, it's the government doing the country down. [speaker001:] Well I'm sorry that the opposition is continuing to talk the country down. We... we have in fact er had a very impressive record on competitiveness. We now in manufacturing where there's been a decline in employment since the nineteen sixties, we now have four million workers in manufacturing producing more than seven million produced fifteen years ago. That's a tribute to the British work force and don't let the honourable gentleman forget that we now have one point four million more in work, in the U K than we had ten years ago. Let him start talking up our achievements rather than pointing to an agenda which his party has already signed up to which would destroy millions of jobs through statutory works councils, statutory minimum wage and statutory compulsory working week. That's a recipe for disaster. [Betty:] James [James:] Question number two Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] Er Madam Speaker the United Kingdom has sixty nine percent... of its working age population in work and it is rising. Germany has sixty five percent and it is falling and France sixty percent and now also falling. [Betty:] Mr Palsey [Palsey:] May I thank my honourable friend for that extremely helpful reply and for the encouraging figures which he has given to the house this afternoon. [speaker001:] Very encouraging. [Palsey:] Clearly it happens to er underline the fact that the United Kingdom economy is in much better shape when compared to the economies of our principal European competitors. Would er my honourable friend agree with me that one of the reasons why we've come out of the recession so well is the fact that we don't have a social contract and. [speaker001:] Hear, hear [Palsey:] Would he agree with me that the social contract, the absence of a social contract... certainly hasn't damaged er rates of take home pay. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Er... Madam Speaker I entirely agree, I entirely agree with my ho honourable friend er the absence of the social chapter in Britain accounts in part for our higher levels of employment and the reforms which we carried out in the eighties and the figures speak for themselves, as do the er people who speak for industry for example when Black and Decker announced their intention to bring their operations er fully into Britain out of Germany, a company spokesman said anyone familiar with this sit situation in Germany will grasp that because of costs it is become very difficult to do business there. If members opposite had their way it would be very difficult to do business here. [Betty:] Bill Campbell-Savers. [Savers:] Would... would the minister... answer a question on a matter of concern to businessmen in the county of Cumbria? After the tax increases in the budget of this year o on April which are in to be introduced in April the first. Does the minister believe that they have... implications for the economy of the United Kingdom? Does he think they will lead to further unemployment and does he think they'll have enough... the effect of increasing unemployment in my part of the United Kingdom? [speaker001:] Madam Speaker I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor's proposals to er reduce the burden of national insurance contributions will have a very beneficial effect er on employment a and on businesses but er if members opposite and er the honourable gentleman er says what he thinks clearly, if members opposite are arguing that higher public expenditure and higher taxation will have an impact on employment then he's absolutely right. That is why on this side we resist the proposals which come from members opposite to add to public expenditure every day of the week. [Betty:] Julian Brazier. [Brazier:] Would my... right honourable friend, sorry would honourable friend agree that the way you build jobs in an economy is through having successful businesses. Businesses like Chartered Papermill where one of our honourable friends will be opening a new plant... er shortly where they have... have won awards for quality, for training and for exports, national and regional during the last three years. That is the way that we build jobs surely, not through bureaucratic regulations. [speaker001:] Er Madam Speaker... I entirely agree with my honourable friend, regulation and bureaucracy are the enemy of employment and that is why the Prime Minister has ensured that every government department is looking at regulations and bureaucracy to reduce the burden and that is why in the forthcoming European elections on this side of the house we'll be arguing for less bureaucracy and less regulation, not more which destroys jobs. [Betty:] Michael. [speaker001:] Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, this is a job summit and I intend to talk about jobs. I'm very grateful to the minister for being brief though of course he passed on no information of any worth. The five hundred and forty three thousand less people in employment in Britain than there was a year ago and four hundred and fifty one less in employment than in nineteen seventy nine. Surely it's time to talk to the United States about how they succeed by having a minimum wage in most states and giving trade union rights to people that we deny the same firms employees in this country. When the honourable gentleman said I gave no information I said I intended to talk about jobs and in this country we believe, we believe that er there are three things very important a at this forthcoming summit. First of all the importance of a stable economic framework. Secondly the importance of a flexible Labour market and thirdly the removal of barriers to enterprise. Finally I'll just say this to him, I agree that we have a great deal of things to learn from the United States, not in the way he suggests but it is a fact that er over the economic cycle of O E C D between seventy nine and eighty nine... er America the United States saw growth of twenty six percent which created eighteen and half million jobs in their free enterprise economy. The European community on the other hand... also saw a growth of output of over twenty percent, twenty three point seven percent but that gave rise not to eighteen million but to only six million additional jobs and I just say to the honourable gentleman the lesson for Europe is to go further down the route that I have suggested of further deregulation and less bureaucracy and a stable economic framework, than to go down the route that he is advocating in his short address and question to me. I believe the way ahead lies with more free enterprise. [Betty:] Sir Peter Horton. Er would my... would my right honourable friend confirm... that in the United States... there are no government training schemes of any kind. Is it not extraordinary therefore that in the United States where there is the most rapid growth of technology and of productivity, there are no government training schemes and does this not make a nonsense of the opposition's repeated claim that government training schemes are the way forward? [speaker001:] What I w what I will say to my honourable, my right honourable friend is that er when I recently visited the United States I did find that the, on which our training and enterprise councils have been based, have provided a very valuable experience for us in learning the lessons that he had indicated of ensuring that the private sector is fully involved in decisions over training and I believe that the figure I gave to my honourable friend early today, combined with over two billion that my department spends on training, forms a very effective public private sector partnership. [Betty:] Sir John Prescott. [Gillan:] Will the Secretary of State make clear to the summit that after fourteen years of this government we have seen unemployment treble to three million unemployed. That we have three million full time employer ployees replaced by three million part time and self employed with the worst trained and education labour force of any attending the summit. Will he also ask the Americans how, as he claims, they've created eighteen million jobs with a minimum wage provision... and also make clear how much Britain is paying in family credit support to maintain low paid subsidised wages by the tax payer in this country? [speaker001:] Still the honourable gentleman talks down Britain. I think he has to... I think he has to think very seriously before he starts to decry the achievements of this nation. For instance I have given one which is in the last ten years we have nearly one and half million more people in work than we had ten years ago. That is a signal achievement. If I also say to him that the lesson we learn from the United States is not to go down the route that he and his party have signed up to in signing up to a socialist manifesto for the European elections. He is proposing, which is the last thing you would find the United States, statutory works councils, statutory minimum wage, compulsory working week, it's about time he dropped those proposals which would cost millions of jobs. [Betty:] Alan Howarth. [Jones:] At the summit will my right honourable friend enquire about the progress in the employment of disabled people and the advantages to the American economy in consequence of the Americans with disabilities act. Will he accept that in the United States of America, the land of free enterprise, it was concluded that voluntary arrangements would never sufficiently overcome discrimination against employment and will he respond positively to the view of the employers forum on disability and the law society as well as three hundred and eleven honourable members of this house who have signed E D M number two that the time has now come for legislation to ban discrimination against in er disabled people in respect of employment in this country. [speaker001:] Well I I know my honourable friend feels very strongly on this subject. What I would hope that we could achieve in this country is more through erm opportunities for disabled people, greater opportunities for disabled people... to gain access into work and as my honourable friend knows, we have put forward some proposals we're presently considering the position following the representations that have been made to us after the... er new access to work scheme was announced and I hope to make an announcement on that aspect shortly. But I just say to my honourable friend I don't think er compulsion er is the route with that we should follow. I believe we must give increasing opportunities to disabled people to get into work. [Betty:] Mr Derek [Heal:] Number five ma'am... er Madam Speaker examples include the introduction of it new integrated regional offices and the creation of a single regeneration budget from April the first of this year. [Betty:] Er Mr Enright. [Lloyd:] Grateful to the minister for that reply but would he not agree with me that where local authorities... erm local chambers of commerce and trades councils er and his own department of employment, are already working well together with good small initiatives, to put upon them English Estates, TECs, British coal enterprise er is in fact to do precisely what he does not... advocate to make a mushrooming of bureaucracy... and will he not undertake to evaluate these initiative to see if they really... do work or whether they're just providing jobs for the boys. [speaker001:] Er Madam Speaker, I I agree with er the honourable gentleman that it's extremely important that the various agencies do play a part in working together to ensure effective action with minimum bureaucracy and I know that the honourable gentleman has been anxious to ensure that that happens in his own constituency and his own area where he is dealing with the problems of high unemployment er and the fall out from the closures of pits in his area and if the honourable gentleman has any specific er er measures which he would like us to look at then I'd be very happy to consider those. [Betty:] Philip Oppenheim. [James:] Er but is my honourable aware... that employment prospects in Amber valley were devastated by pit closures... mainly in the nineteen seventies but that now the area, but that now the area has some of the lowest unemployment in Europe, certainly lower than in Germany and the reason is mainly due to the success of new manufacturing businesses. Doesn't this, doesn't this illustrate that the best way to create sustainable jobs in the long term is not subsidising unsustainable old industries but by allowing better conditions for enterprise, better labour relations in themselves to attract new jobs to the area. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Madam Speaker I entirely agree with er... my honourable friend. The way to secure future prosperity is by embracing change not resisting it and as my honourable friend er indicates, by using our skills to best effect and competitively in a global market place were we to embrace the policies of members opposite in the European community we would shut the job, the door to the jobs which will come from that inward investment because we have opted out of the social chapter we do indeed have the opportunity that comes from being, if I may qui may quote er President Delors a pa a paradise for inward investment. [Betty:] Mr Kevin Baron. [Palsey:] Could I say to the minister and bring him back to the real world... about regeneration.... The government are about to announce er at Templebury in Rotherham a three point seven five million pounds project which I a actually support er made by English Estates... that project is estimated to create a hundred and seventy five jobs. Last year out of the two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine that were lost in the Rotherham borough from coal, engineering and steel there were two hundred and sixty jobs lost at Templebury steel plant in November. This year seventy five jobs lost at last week and there's four hundred job losses that are currently being negotia negotiated in United Engineering Steels in Sheffield and Rotherham. That regeneration project is a flea on a dog's back into the jobs that have been lost in that... area at the moment. When are we going to meet the needs of those areas for jobs and not have these things where we're getting less than twenty percent job replacement through g regeneration. [speaker001:] Well Madam Speaker, we'll start making progress when members opposite realise that jobs come from companies being competitive, from private enterprise being able to sell goods and services competitively and it is members opposite who believe that the state can provide employment on this of the house we believe that government agencies can assist the market to operate effectively and real jobs will come from free enterprise which members opposite stand against. Madam Speaker... I wonder if the minister is aware that in the economically declining fishing port of Brixham in South Devon the second largest fishing port in the West Country... that the employment service agency want to build... a new building on a prime site in the centre of Brixham... in order to put both the payout office and the job creation office in the same building and they're prepared to pay over the odds with government money and push out private enterprise who want to build that site. Isn't it a far better use of public money to create training and job creation rather than to buy a prime site with public money? Er, Madam Speaker I'm very much aware of the case that the... my honourable friend has er mentioned because he has written to me er about it and I have looked into the circumstances er of it and I understand that the employment service have made no final decision on that particular site and I'd be happy to respond to my honourable friend er once I've had a chance to discuss it further with the Chief Executive of the employment service whose responsibility it is but if I could just say to my honourable friend the principle of integrating er the work of the job centre and the payment of benefits on one site is a good one which is for the convenience of er people who make use of the job centres er and er as er er the honourable er gentleman, the member for Workington is indicating from a sedentary position, was a recommendation which was supported by the public accounts er committee and I believe and I believe that it er makes sense to proceed on a value for money basis with this policy but I will certainly look at the particular example in my honourable friend's constituency with interest. [Betty:] Kate. [Savers:] Number seven. [speaker001:] Er, there is of course er no such tech.... However if the honourable member is referring to her own tech, which is called South Thames tech... then the department's regional director... is currently negotiating the level of resources for ninety four, five with the tech and of course also with other London techs. [Betty:] Kate. [Savers:] Yes thank you I'd like to thank the minister for her reply... some of us in South London will still call it the site of East London Tech no matter what the minister wants to call it. But could I say to the minister that she will be aware that the South Thames tech actually is the first tech to get involved in kids club network and that one of the very useful things that has happened in my constituency is the setting up the first kids after school club in in in Vauxhall. Would the minister like to... say, like to welcome that initiative but also to ensure that the money which the South Thames tech are going to be able to put into that will be able to continue and not only continue in that one but to allow the increase of this after school provision so that those many women in my constituency and who, the many women in South London who are unemployed, will have the opportunity to get back to work and get back to training with that very necessary provision for child care. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Can I say first of all to the honourable lady that yes of course I welcome er the particular initiatives er and indeed I have visited it as I think she will know, er and I'm very pleased to congratulate all those concerned in setting it up. We have of course made it clear that those techs who were piloting... er the out of school childcare initiative... er will continue er to be funded er along with all other techs from ninety four, five and although of course I cannot preempt the tech's judgement and take a view on that particular scheme, er I can say that funding will continue for techs for that purpose. [Betty:] Mr Ian Taylor. [Brazier:] Would my honourable friend er recognise that just up the River Thames from er the South Thames tech is the Surrey tech which is doing and excellent job with local industry in re-skilling particularly younger people and this partnership with industry, not just dependent on what the government does, but what industry itself does to try and help people get back into jobs with the new challenges that are coming from the difficulties that are presented by... higher calibre needed particularly for school leavers and other and will he w would she welcome the Surrey tech's initiative? [speaker001:] Er yes I have pleasure indeed in worre er in welcoming the er Surrey tech's initiative er and indeed similar initiatives er in other techs up and down the country. I'm delighted to welcome er the various initiatives that result from partnerships between industry and government er and in particular the investors in people which encourages training and skilling er on a life long basis and I have pleasure in confirming that that is not confined to the private sector and that today ACAS became the first civil service er body to receive the full award of Investors in People. [Betty:] Mr David Winneck. [speaker001:] Number eight The Prime Minister and I had such a meeting on the twentieth of December. [Betty:] Er, Mr Winneck. [speaker001:] But is the Secretary of State aware that the campaign against the ban on union membership at G C H Q remains as strong as ever and will continue until victory is secured. There was no justification for the ban in the first place... and is the Secretary of State not concerned that the International Labour Organisation has expressed much concern over the continuing ban and it may well be that in view of the fact that the government is not willing to compromise in any way the I L O may well decide to formally rebuke and reprimand the government. If that is the case you'll be the first ever case of a Western government being so reprimanded. Madam Speaker there are a number of points in that supplementary question, let me deal first of all with... on G C H Q we've done exactly what the I L O requested us to do, we've had er discussions with the civil service unions to see if a solution could be found. No one ever imagined for a moment that it would be easy to find a solution which would satisfy both sides, but as far as the government is concerned the dialogue remains open. I'm confident that we have nothing to fear from an examination of our industrial relations policies, er at the I L O. We believe we can demonstrate that these polici er policies comply with all the I L O conventions that we have ratified. [Betty:] Michael Allison. Would my right honourable friend confirm... that the former director of G C H Q, Sir Brian Tovey, stated that during the imposition of martial law... in Warsaw and during the Soviet anva invasion of Afghanistan... some ten thousand hours of cover were lost... at G C H Q. And will he not confirm that is a perfectly good reason for the ban on external... er interference by trade unions in the activities of G C H Q and will he also... assure the house that the existing trade assoc the staff association works perfectly well and there is no reason whatever for an external trade union to interfere in G C H Q's affairs. [speaker001:] Well I can, I can confirm what my honourable friend says. Namely that between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty one, ten thousand working days were lost at G C H Q and we just cannot run the risk of anything like that ever happening again.... So far as my honourable friend er is concerned he is right erm and we indeed suggested that the staff federation should be affiliated to the council of civil service trade unions to enable staff who belong to the federation to gain access to the facilities available to unions affiliated to the C C S U. Sadly, sadly the civil service unions did not feel able to accept this proposal. [Betty:] Anne [Gillan:] But isn't it er true according the reports in the financial times, that the government at this moment is planning to withdraw Britain from the I L O. Precisely because the I L O has censured Britain... a censure that is normally a sanction that is normally applied to countries like Haiti and North Korea. Isn't it a fact that this government is becoming isolated, not only in Europe but throughout the world for its anti worker and its anti union policies. [speaker001:] There is no truth that er ministers intend to withdraw from the I L O or to seek... an opportunity to do so and despite T U C criticism, as I said earlier, we believe that our policies comply with all the I L O conventions which we've ratified... and as my honourable friends have pointed out, our overriding objective is to ensure the maintenance of continuous operations at G C H Q which is vital to the protection of national security. However... the Prime Minister has made it clear that the government is ready to discuss any further proposals that the uish union may wish to put forward that are consistent with our overriding objective of safeguarding national security. [Betty:] Graham. [Jones:] speak. Would my right honourable friend not agree that because of their irresponsible behaviour in disrupting G C H Q's vital work in the early nineteen eighties the trade unions only have themselves to blame for this ban. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more with my honourable friend. It is very important indeed to ensure that the staff of G C H Q are not subject to potential conflicts of interest... and as I said earlier the Prime Minister and I listened for some considerable time... to the s to er to the points put forward by the trade unions to see whether or not that overriding er... national objective could be maintained but we were not convinced, we were not convinced that erm... the trade unions could overcome those potential conflicts of interest and it behoves ill the party opposite... to try and put a different gloss on the fact that we in this country thanks to our legislation, have put harmony in place of strife and [shouting] we are not prepared to allow the opposition to put that major achievement at risk. [] No... number nine Madam Speaker. Figures from the labour force survey showed that in the banking, finance, insurance and business services in greater London, the number in employment since nineteen eighty nine has risen by seven thousand. What message has the minister to give to the five hundred and five employees of Barclays Bank in London whose new year began with receipt of a redundancy notice... at the very moment when the bank's new chief executive was having his pay doubled to seven hundred and thirty seven thousand pounds a year. What comment has the minister to make on this example of corporate ethics or does she like the Prime Minister believe it's no matter for her? is the matter for the honourable gentleman is giving his constituents hope what he appears completely unable to do. You will... the house will note, the house will note Madam Speaker that the phraseology of the honourable gentleman's original question was how many jobs have been lost, in fact jobs had risen and he didn't even have the grace to welcome that. Perhaps he would like Hear, hear. to tell his constituents that with London's share of world trade in financial services is increasing and is now at twenty seven percent... that the financial services sector round the U K four point three billion, that those employees that he refers to are in fact in an industry which even if it is redistributing employment it's nevertheless growing. Can I say to the honourable gentleman, why doesn't he give encouragement to Britain's performance in the financial services sector? Why don't the whole lot of them? Would my honourable friend, is my honourable friend aware that employment in London and the South East has actually risen by over two hundred in the ten years from March nineteen eighty three and will she confirm that some of the hundred and fifty thousand places in the new apprenticeship scheme will be available in London? Yes I have pleasure in confirming that and I also have pleasure in confirming... that another good sign for young people, apart from the creation of modern apprenticeships, is also the way that the numbers waiting more than eight weeks for a Y T place has now declined from over three thousand to just over three hundred. That there are now a large number of techs in the country with no young people waiting, modern apprenticeships are going to help that process even further and why aren't modern apprenticeships being welcomed?... I take it that the honourable gentlemen are in fact cheering the government, thank you very much. [Betty:] Tony Banks. [Heal:] Is the, is the minister, is the minister aware that Barclays have laid off or declared seven thousand redundancies. National Westminster has announced four thousand redundancies and yet you still have to wait ages in the queue at the bank, why is that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Hear, hear Perhaps the honourable member should do a competitiveness survey and go somewhere else for his queue, I don't know but what I can tell the honourable gentleman is... that even though there were losses in the banking industry for the last year... there have been strongly offsetting rises in insurance and business services. It's generally good news in the financial sector. That is the message which the honourable gentleman might be telling both those in the queue and the cashiers. [Betty:] Sir David. [Lloyd:] Question number ten Madam Speaker... number ten. [Betty:] Ten. [speaker001:] David Conolly. Er er Madam Speaker er non-wage costs never get into employees wage packets but do make it more expensive for employers to provide a job. On average for every one hundred pounds in wages an employer in Britain must pay... twenty pounds extra, in Germany thirty pounds and in France and Italy forty pounds. [Betty:] Mr Conolly. [James:] Does my honourable friend agree that one of the reasons this country is so successful at attracting inward investment is because of those lower non-wage labour costs? Does he also agree that the imposition of the social chapter, which both parties opposite would like to force on this country, would not only destroy our competitive advantage but more importantly would destroy jobs? [speaker001:] Hear, hear. I entirely agree with er my honourable friend, er not only er is the lower non-wage cost a reason for inward investment being attracted to Britain but it's also why together with our general economic policy, why workers in Britain enjoy in real terms, some of the best take home pay packets in Europe. [Betty:] Alex Carlisle. [Palsey:] Given the favourable non-wage labour cost which the minister told us about a moment ago, how does he justify the enormous discrepancy in wages between England and Wales as an average and areas like South Wales and Northumberland where average weekly earnings are up to sixty five pounds less... than the average... and will he explain to us why the government is not tackling huge wage differentials in this country? [speaker001:] Well I have to say I'm amazed at the honourable gentleman asking that question. If he had his way, and we signed up for the social chapter, those extra costs would have to be met out of those pay packets and there'd be even less for people to take in wages so the honourable gentleman shouldn't be complaining about low pay when he wants to add to the costs of employment along with the rest of his party. [Betty:] Michael Bates. [Savers:] Does my honourable friend agree with Klaus Stratzenburg who is a supervisor with Black and Decker in Lindburg in Germany who when asked to comment as to why he felt that Black and Decker were closing their plant in Germany to move it to Spennymore in County Durham, said it's simple... industry must be flexible, the social chapter isn't. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Er Madam Speaker... I... I entirely agree with the sentiments which have been expressed by Black and Decker and I have to say to members opposite that when companies like Mercedes are starting to source outside of Germany, with companies like Volkswagen are starting to look er outside Europe and Peugeot and others, alarm bells should be ringing for those members who are genuinely concerned about jobs because there is no doubt that the social chapter is driving people out of work and the longer that members opposite adhere to it er then the... the greater will be the... er the possibility o of er people er in Europe er embracing policies which will make those countries in Europe less competitive and less able to provide employment. [Betty:] John Prescott. [Gillan:] Can the minis can the minister of state in view of his many visits to America, say whether he agrees with the Secretary of State's earlier statement that American does not have a minimum wage legislation? [speaker001:] Er I think er if the honourable gentleman checks the record he will find that my right honourable friend said that America did not have a national statutory minimum wage but I'm most... I'm most grateful to the honourable gentleman for reminding us of the international comparisons because he will know that the country in Europe which has embraced his policy of a statutory minimum wage is Spain and Spain has twice the level of unemployment of the European average and twice the level in this country. [Betty:] Anthony [Brazier:] In recognising the crucial importance of lower non-wage costs in Britain compared to Europe. Is my honourable friend aware of the fact that, a German wheel maker has transferred all its heavy wheel making operations to my constituency and also the carpet companies in my constituency are now going to Germany to buy up their now redundant carpet making machinery precisely because German companies can't compete in the kind of regime that they are have imposed upon them. [speaker001:] Er I I'm most er grateful to my honourable friend... for giving yet another example of how the social chapter has exported jobs out of the eleven into Britain. That's good news for Britain as long as we ensure that we never, ever sign up to the social chapter with its job destroying er job destroying characteristics. [Betty:] Michael. [speaker001:] Number eleven Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker. The full range of modern apprenticeships will be offered to sixteen and seventeen year olds... in September nineteen ninety five... and there will be some prototypes starting at the er later this year. [clears throat] I note the minister didn't give er the numbers of apprenticeships and there's possibly a reason for that. The minister will be aware that in the last year of the Labour government, there was an hundred and fifty thousand apprenticeships in manufacturing alone... whilst in manufacturing in nineteen ninety one there was only fifty one thousand apprenticeships. Clearly the minister's response is inefficient, it's it's quite inadequate and what is required is a much more positive stance from the minister, and can the minister tell us... whether or not he will be, he will be giving the opportunity to mature entrants to the apprenticeship scheme so that people that have been thrown on the scrap heap over this last fifteen years will have an opportunity and can he tell us whether or not he's had discussions with British Coal enterprise... to allow miners that have been made redundant to come into the new apprenticeship scheme so that they will have new skills which will help them to get new jobs. Hear, hear. The honourable gentleman knows that the new modern apprenticeship scheme that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on the thirtieth of November, is of course designed to encourage more young people to train up to N V Q level three and to encourage even more young people to train to even higher levels. Of course during the er... during the course of this year we will be considering prototypes which will enable those young people to reach that high level of qualification... but he will be aware that under the national training and education target there are some of those targets which are directly related to the points that he has raised and the important priority for this government is to ensure not only that we have young people training to an even higher level... but through programmes like investors in people, that we encourage every member of the work force and those... er who are primarily unemployed at the present time, to train to even higher levels of qualifications. [Betty:] Questions to the Prime Minister... er Mr the the Reverend Martin Smith. Number one Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] I've been asked to reply my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is in Moscow for a series of meetings... including meetings with President Yeltsin and Prime Minister. [Betty:] Reverend Martin Smith. Madam Speaker has the... lord president of the council noticed the response of... Mr Reynolds and to Miss Mary Harney's... question... what representations has he... had been made to United States over Gerry Adams' visit. The response was that we do not get involved in trying i in... to get foreign administrations to... try to tell them what decisions they should make. Would he ask his right honourable friend to press the Prime Minister to exercise the same restraint over the United Kingdom particularly Northern Ireland. [speaker001:] Well as the honourable gentleman will know, the issue over visa was of course a decision for the U S authorities though our own advice as the house knows, er was clear. So far as the main thrust of the honourable gentleman's question is concerned er he will know that we believe it to be right... and indeed in the interests of all the people in Northern Ireland that the British and Irish government should work closely together. As he knows the talks process brings together the two governments and the main constitutional parties in working together to find an accommodation, and I think that is right. [Betty:] Mr Stephen [Gillan:] Er would my right honourable friend... agree with me that the appearance of Jerry Adams on the... Walden programme proved beyond any doubt that whatever Sinn Fein say... Sinn Fein have rejected the er Downing Street declaration. Would he not join me in urging Sinn Fein to reconsider their position on this... and would he also agree with me and confirm to this house that this government will never do what Mr Adams requests and that is become a persuader of the people of Northern Ireland to join a united Ireland and will he, will he recognise from me that many on these benches remain committed to the union of Northern Ireland and Great Britain. [speaker001:] My my honourable friend will know that my right honourable friend has me on may occasions made clear the British government's position in relation to the question of persuasion. As to the rest of his question then of course I and I suspect and perhaps I know that everybody in the house would urge Sinn Fein er to consider very seriously a positive response to the joint declaration. [Betty:] Mrs Margaret Beckett. [Jones:] As ministers are still proclaiming that back to basics is the lode star guiding government policy while the Prime Minister's dodging all questions about it. Doesn't this show yet again that back to basics is making this government a laughing stock? [speaker001:] Hear, hear. My er... the right hon the right honourable lady I'm er... I don't know whether I'm sorry to say or not, it's a bit out of date, my right honourable friend has just today... given a clear explanation of the back to basics theme. And he has er... and he has once again once again made it clear, he has once again made it clear that that is particularly important in such areas as standards in education, law and order and the provision of public services. And it applies also to the range of our increasingly successful economic and business policies. [Betty:] Mrs Beckett. [Jones:] I notice that yet again the Lord President's list and presumably the Prime Ministers... doesn't include the standard of telling the truth about tax. [speaker001:] Hear, hear [Jones:] Why is the government... why is the government... refusing to come clean... about the size of the further tax increases that British families will face in nineteen ninety five? [speaker001:] Madam Speaker, what er... I and my right honourable friend will go on emphasising is the contribution which our tax policies are making to the economic strength and the improved standards of living of this country. [Betty:] Mrs Beckett. [Jones:] But as the Lord President must be aware... my honourable friend, the Shadow Chief Secretary, has questions tabled to this government about the extra taxes people will pay in nineteen ninety five to which an answer is not being provided. The government must have the figures, we know the government has the figures and the people of Britain will have to pay that extra tax so why haven't they got the guts to tell them how much they'll have to pay. [speaker001:] My right honourable and honourable friends have answered many questions and will continue to answer the questions... that the honourable the right honourable lady's friends ask. But what we want to know from the right honourable lady... what we want to know from the right honourable lady is when they will come clean about the public spending policies that will put taxes in this country up. Hear, hear. [Betty:] Michael Chersby. [Heal:] Is my... is my right honourable friend aware that yesterday the Chairman of the board of inland revenue told the private accounts committee that some five hundred and fifty million pounds of unclaimed tax still remains to be picked up by tax payers who've been affected by the er... the change in the tax regime in the last couple of years where for example women are now assessed independently. Is he further aware... that that amounts to about eight hundred and eighty thousand pounds per parliamentary constituency. Will the government do everything possible to ensure that the inland revenue makes this widely known to every tax payer in the country? [speaker001:] The, the government and I'm sure that er the inland revenue are always anxious to make sure that tax payers are properly informed of their rights er and receive their correct entitlement and I have no doubt that every effort will be made to achieve what my honourable friend seeks. [Betty:] Gary Wynn-Jones. [Lloyd:] Number two Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. [Betty:] Mr Wynn-Jones. [Lloyd:] Madam Speaker in view of the fact that the... real value of pensions has gone down for many years now following the break. Following the break... following the break... following the break with the link with earnings and the fact that value of pensions in the U K is out of line with virtually every other comparable European country... an in view of the fact, and in view of the fact that the compensation package... for V A T for pensioners will not compensate them in full as was promised,... and in view of the fact that we've had extremely cold weather for the last week. Will the government now introduce a special heating allowance for pensions? [speaker001:] Hear, hear. Madam Speaker I r... the er honourable gentleman must have a rather er curious source for his statistics because what has actually happened is not merely that the government have protected the real value of the state retirement pension but the combination of our policies both in social security, in the pensions field and in the economic world have led to a position in which pensioners average real incomes have risen more than forty percent since this government took office. [Betty:] Lady. [speaker001:] Number three Madam Speaker. Hear, hear. I refer my honourable friends to the reply I gave some moments ago. honourable friends join me in condemning the non-sensible advice given by liberty to truanting school children that they should defy police and isn't it absolutely typical that the party opposite tend to support them. Hear, hear. I would certainly join my honourable friend in condemning the advice which has been reported in the... paper today er the government's efforts to improve the campaign against truancy and the to succeed in getting errant pupils back to school which is where they should be, I believe is and should be widely supported. For liberty to be opposing it in the way that they are shows that they don't remotely understand the best interests of our children or our schools. [Betty:] Mr Davidson. [James:] Er would the leader of the house then express his concern... that at the end of the March when the tory party conference comes to Plymouth, there's a hundred and thirty five children are going to miss a day and a half of their schooling because of that conference. [speaker001:] I I do not suppose they will be playing truant. [Betty:] Mr John [Palsey:] Number four Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] I refer my honourable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago. [Betty:] Mr Wittingdale. [Savers:] Has my right honourable friend had time to study the recent annual survey of grant maintained schools which shows that since becoming grant maintained, schools have been able to recruit more teachers, improve their results and offer better facilities for their pupils. Does he not therefore find it extraordinary that the Labour and Liberal parties remain committed to the abolition of grant maintained schools... and that in local government they are waging a relentless campaign against G M schools, as typified by the behaviour of Essex County Council. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. My honourable friend is certainly right that the latest survey confirms the benefit of grant maintained status. Those schools are achieving improved academic results, better staying on rates and lower pupil teacher ratios. They are popular with parents and it's no surprise that well over a thousand schools have voted in favour of such status. As to my honourable friend's confi concerns about Essex and of course his constituency... borders mine. He will be as pleased as I to know that in Essex there are now sixty three secondary and fifty five primary schools operating with grant maintained status. That represents sixty percent of secondary schools and seventeen percent of primary schools and despite the er endeavour to which he refers of Essex county council, I can tell him that the latest school to decide to hold a ballot on such status is Notley High School, Braintree. [Betty:] Mr Brian Davies. [Brazier:] Number six Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. [Betty:] Brian Davies. [Brazier:] Madam Speaker, when my... constituents complain about high fuel bills and watch the bosses of privatised utilities coining money... am I to say to them that as far as the Prime Me Minister is concerned it's nothing to do with him? [speaker001:] Hear, hear. The er honourable gentleman's question appears to be founded on a rather... curious premise, er what has... what has happened... what has happened to electricity prices is that have fallen six percent in real terms over the last two financial years and if he wants to know another interesting statistics I can tell him. That in nineteen seventy nine the electricity companies, then nationalised, lost the equivalent in today's prices of four hundred and sixty five million pounds. In nineteen ninety two, ninety three they paid four hundred and twenty million pounds to the exchequer in corporation tax. Hear, hear. [Betty:] Mr John [speaker001:] Would my right, would my right honourable friend agree that the use of American... and French and British planes... to bomb the hills around Sarajevo may not necessarily produce lasting peace in Bosnia and would he further agree that if the idea is to achieve a demilitarised zone, policed effectively around Sarajevo then the best chances of so doing are by ensuring that Russian soldier... in United Nations uniforms, in integrated units with British and French forces so help in the policing of that zone. Mada Madam Speaker my honourable friend knows well that the purpose er of what has been said and what is being considered about air strikes er is to is is to bring about er the er cessation of the sort of bombardment that we have seen in Sarajevo and I think everybody will want to see that effort successfully er completed. [Betty:] Mr George Number seven Madam Speaker [speaker001:] Hear, hear I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. Will the leader of the house confirm that the government is announcing today by means of written answer, an increase of fifty pence in the prescription charges. Why is there no oral statement in this house? Is it is it because having taxed the disabled and taxed the divorce the government are aff afraid to face to the music and make an announcement that they are increasing tax on the sick. It er, first of all I can confirm that an announcement is being made today... er secondly... secondly... secondly I can confirm that it is not usual for such announcements to be made by way of oral statement. Thirdly I can tell him that eighty percent of prescribed items are now free of charge compared with sixty percent in nineteen seventy nine. Fourthly, fourthly I can tell him that prescription charges will raise nearly three hundred million pounds in the forthcoming year. Fifthly I can tell him that that will pay for over two hundred thousand cataracts operations... or over seventy thousand hip operations... and sixthly I will ask him to tell me where he would find the money. [Betty:] Nigel Evans. [Gillan:] Number eight Madam Speaker. [speaker001:] I refer my honourable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago. [Betty:] Mr Evans. [Gillan:] Has my right honourable friend had an opportunity to see the report from three I s, investors in industry, in which they have surveyed five hundred of the companies in which they invest and the confidence factor of those businesses is higher now than it's ever been since they started the surveys in nineteen eighty eight. Isn't this further evidence that this government has the right policies for British business and the British people. [speaker001:] My honourable friend is absolutely right. This survey shows that firms in both the North and South of the country report greater improvement than in the previous survey and have become more optimistic about their own prospects. The fact is that the whole of British business in now increasingly confident about the economy and about this government's policies for business. [Betty:] Time's up. Mr Blunkett. [Jones:] Point of order, Madam Speaker I seek your ruling on the fact that the Secretary of State for health... has declined to make a statement to the house on the increase of fifty P in prescription charges.... But that the... the leader of the house effectively made a statement in Prime Minister's questions on the same issue, misleading the house into believing... that the government were actually applying this money to patient care rather than to meeting their own political incompetence. Isn't it a disgrace Madam Speaker, that the government should duck the opportunity to make a clear statement... on a sixty, on an increase which is the sixteenth since they made the promise in nineteen seventy nine that they would not increase prescription charges. [Betty:] Ministers of course always determine for themselves... whether they answer by means of a written question or whether they come to the despatch box and make a statement. This is something over which I I as speaker, have no control whatsoever. Yes, Mrs O'Mahon, Mrs Mahon. [Heal:] Er Madam Speaker, I'm seriously concerned about... a minister misleading the house and I seek your general guidance... on a matter. Last night on the world in action programme the minister for health, the member for Peterborough, categorically denied that there was no two tier system and he said... I have no evidence of a two tier system developing in the N H S. [speaker001:] Very anxious to promote the Wales in Europe scheme because it's been very important to us, including the links that er we have been able to build up with other regions of Europe in Catalonia,, Lombardy and Battenberkaburg above all er which our our sort of strong erm er neighbours which can... teach us a lot about industry and these are the areas that we will want to link up with by having this extra seat in the European parliament, er and obviously... I mean there are sorts of areas where we have some sympathy with the occasional point that is made by the anti-Europe speakers on the other side. There ar there is... er an excessive proliferation of European bodies with the European parliament and now the new committee of the regions and then you also have the economic and social committee. In the end something's gotta be done to sort out that excessive pru proliferation. But we er are welcoming the fact that there is a recognition of the rising population of Wales er in giving us this er this additional seat er primarily the additional population has not come in industrial South Wales which er... er which er people think of perhaps as the most typically Welsh area, it's actually in two counties of Clwyd and Dyfed that are... erm growing most rapidly because of lifestyle migration, retirement migration erm into those two areas and that is why the additional seat, if you can put it that way, er takes from all the other four of course, is is the mid and West Wales seat... which has been compared by the honourable member for Cornwall er tonight and it has only got a population of four hundred and one thousand but on the other hand of course it is such an extensive seat because the population sparsity... in that area is much, much worse than even in Cornwall and therefore it is going to stretch from South of Milford Haven to the Llanrwst area really within... probably twenty miles of the North Wales coast, it's a who it's the whole of two counties plus one additional very badly populated constituency... erm in in the county of Gwynedd, an awkward constituency but one that we are certainly looking forward... fighting and winning to give us the five out of five er now that er the boundaries are going through tonight and obviously it's all in line really er to look at the other, the third order of course, the question of the registration of overseas voters in the nineteen ninety two election overseas voters had their first opportunity to participate in Westminster elections. The Conservatives in Wales have actually taken this principal much further they don't only allow... overseas voters to participate in Welsh elections, they actually encourage them to become chairmen of our quangos as well as we've got David Robeddow chairman of Conservatives abroad... in Monte Carlo... i if the panel out. [Lloyd:] About quangos whatsoever, I want to something about the boundaries of the European parliament. Mr Morgan. [James:] Er I mean the er... it's er, course there are three orders that we are looking at tonight, it includes the er the third order er in relation not to boundaries but to the registration of overseas er voters to enable them to vote er in this, in this er election within U K constituencies and therefore that's why the position that Mr David Robeddow as the chairman of Conservatives abroad er in Monte Carlo is relevant, er but also bec because of course the purpose of the European parliament for the first time as it will go through under these new boundaries, now is that they will be able to remedy some of that democratic deficit. They will be able to have a voice in choosing the chairman of the European commission... which is like a Euro quango in a way so I do see a parallel which I want to put to you that we are remedying the democratic deficit in Europe with that giant Euro quango in the same way that we would like to... remedy the democratic deficit with respect to the proliferation of quangos in Wales. [Lloyd:] A all very interesting indeed but for le let's now talk about the boundaries in the open business. Mr Roderick Morgan. [James:] Right.... [clears throat] The other point that I [Lloyd:] Order, order... order. I think we've had quite sufficient of that, let's get back to the European boundaries, Mr Roderick Morgan. [James:] Sir,i it was a terrible brief point about clad in jodhpurs, riding boots and hacking jacket but all the point that I was going to make that I've heard about riding roughshod over Europe but... Mr Deputy Speaker this is ridiculous, I... the er... the honourable [Lloyd:] The honourable gentleman trying my patience now... please get back to the boundaries of the. Point of order, Mr Bill Cash. [Palsey:] Mr Deputy Speaker, er i you will have observed that the two front benches have spoken at incredible length... and you have had to reprimand them, or certainly the opposition for er going away from the subject matter and do you not... er believe that it would have been far better to allow some back benchers to get. [speaker001:] Hear, hear [Lloyd:] I have no control over the length of speeches, but I am perfectly able to control the debate. Mr Roderick Morgan. [James:] I I'm grateful I I I'm winding up that we on this side... we do believe that these additional six seats are very important because we believe that the European parliament elections are going to be very important and fighting them on these new boundaries with the minimum of delay in spite of the delay that had been caused by the government'incompetence, we regard as very important, we regard this debate tonight as very important to approve these orders because we cannot so far work out whether the government will be fighting the er the whole campaign on the basis of back to basics while the E P P will be doing it on the basis of some other manifesto, vorsprung durch technik or whatever it might be, and they'll be trying to merge those into two slogans of o of er vorsprung durch basics or or whatever it might be and this... we do not know at all whether the government want to be part of Europe and whether their back benchers are gonna be willing to cooperate with the European peoples party or they take the money from the European peoples party but they don't want to participate with them in the manifesto. On this side we have an agreement in fighting the eighty seven seats and it certainly in terms of Wales, we are going to win all five of them. [speaker001:] Hear, hear. [Lloyd:] Sir Peter Loyd. [Savers:] Erm,... Mr Deputy Speaker I'm sorry my honourable friends have not been able to get into this debate as I would have... like to have heard them. I myself am going to take only a very few minutes that are left to me to comment on some of the points that were raised in the debate. Erm, could I... could I first of all start with some of the remarks made by the honourable member for Nottingham North. I was grateful to him for his tribute to the members of the two boundary committees, they did do an excellent job, they did it as he implied,... slightly less un generously to the government er in a considerably shorter time than they and we would have liked but they did it very well and they did it very fairly. Er, we have been... in er organising these new seats, about the same time as the Labour government took in nineteen seventy eight, er I said that when I intervened upon him and I say it again it's worth paying on the records, exactly the same pressures have been on us as were as on them. But of course er the timetable... er for the constituency changes er now and the problems that we're facing are nothing to do with er any action in the... compass of the government here, it is because France has yet to ratify, one hopes they will. On the regulations about candidates and voters er from E E C countries... of course erm er that is a complicated er set of regulations. The er directive of December nineteen ninety three did have details that we were not expecting and looking for so there was a great deal of new work to take on board. Er, the honourable gentleman wondered whether we would ever have a truncated view again, certainly not under the ninety three legislation because that was a once off as a careful reading of the act will show, er but er we will erm and his honourable friend, the member for Perry Barns hoped er that er we would have no more reviews of European boundaries, I know because he was talking at P R but we will certainly have... one new review of er er Euro constituency boundaries because as soon as the parliamentary boundaries are completed... er we will have to go into a new review on that basis of all the European seats and of course the full enquiries will be held in the normal way for them. I give way to the honourable gentleman. [speaker001:] Briefly, I thank the minister for giving way. If the French do not ratify these proposals as may appear likely now er how late can the minister leave it before he informs the people that they must fight the European elections on the old boundaries and not the new? [Savers:] I I I've already said that I don't accept that er the French are unlikely to ratify... er I think rather the contrary but that remains finally for them... er and not for me. Obviously I think the er the final time comes some time in April otherwise I think there would be, and I use the term again... too much inconvenience, massive inconvenience for those fighting the election here... er. [speaker001:] Would my honourable friend give way, brief, very brief. [Savers:] Yes [speaker001:] I'm most grateful, erm, would he take the opportunity to repudiate the comments made by the honourable member for Perry Barr that we will not have erm an alien voting system inflicted upon this country, forced upon this country as he said... erm by the institutions of the European community. Can I reiterate what he he actually said in a meeting with Calum er Carole Degucht er last year er he said I do y... the honourable, my honourable friend said I do not see that uniformity means adopting a system of proportional representation and I've yet to see a good case as to the merits of different states adopting the same procedure. We will continue to veto any proposals that do not match our culture in this country. Er er what the honourable gentleman, my honourable friend reads out is certainly my view er we will erm of course engage in any discussions on this subject that come up i in the council of ministers but it would take quite a lot of convincing I think to myself and my colleagues, that any other form of election would be an improvement on first past the post, erm and er the ar, no I won't give way cos I have about... four minutes left and er I do want to make a couple of other points. If there is any, any time left the honourable gentleman shall have it, erm the honourable gentleman, the member for Nottingham North did say that he d wasn't looking to proportional representation for these elections, I think he was absolutely right, I hope that piece of good sense which he displayed then will be one that wi he will invest his thoughts in when it comes, we come back to these questions later. I'm sorry my honourable friend, the member for South Worcestershire, was unable to make all the points that he he he wanted to do as I would have been interested to hear them. But can I refer to the honourable member for Truro... er again he talked about P R, he thought that it would somehow, if we move that the there for this election it would save some time. It most certainly wouldn't. Which system we would have to decide, who draws up the list... er would the list be a U K one, a regional one or would it be one in the separate countries that go to make up the U K. A huge amount of discussion there, not a chance missed at all, er he wanted a separate seat for for Cornwall. Well so many other... counties would like a... a pt a a seat which is coterminous with them, I know Norfolk would, but the rule is that constituencies should have as far as possible, equal numbers of electors. The er commission, the committees were able to take in special geographic considerations... er but er they don't actually apply to Cornwall. The problem with Cornwall being a seat on its own is that its population is too small. There was no brief given to the committee a he suggested, all the criteria that they should take into account were ones that were included in the act. The Highlands and Islands which he referred to... er is er er a different matter because their geographic considerations which don't apply to Cornwall, do apply. Er, my honourable friend, the member for Aldrich Brownills,he talked about P R, I've mentioned that so he will excuse me if I don't go over his remarks. The honourable member for Perry Barn I've again referred to what, part of what he said er but Gibraltar I have considerable amount of of sympathy with the remarks that he made. It's not something that I can deal with in these orders er I'm afraid that er there was a decision within the community which was then er made part of the nineteen seventy six E C direct elections act. There is no way that we can change those without the agreement of all the other members of the community er but I know that it's something that er my colleagues at the foreign office are extremely concerned with. I sympathise with what the honourable gentleman says and certainly the feelings that are bi er of the er erm citizens of Gibraltar. My honourable friend, the member for Southend East, says does all this matter. Well in the sense that I suppose whether it matters whether there are six hundred and fifty one members of the house rather six hundred and forty or six hundred and fifty five, no it doesn't. But what the change does do is to reflect, rather more accurately than the previous arrangements, the various sizes of the electorates in the European countries and that is the logic and the sense behind it. He asks have I been in touch with the French government. No but I'm flattered that he's, he seems to be implying that my doing so might help, but that is a matter that er er doesn't lie with the Home Office and I really aren't able to intervene. He wants to know what the job of a Euro MP is, well he is applying for a Euro seat, I do wish him the best of luck and when he's been there Hear, hear when he's been there a little while perhaps he can come with all the authority of a Euro MP and tell us the answer to his own question... er, the honourable member for Ashfield er referred back to the positioning of the European parliament er where it should meet, there are three sites. Er, the position of the British government is this, that it regrets... er the inconvenience... and the expense, er it would like to see a very sensible resolution but it knows that there will only be a resolution as I know the honourable gentleman knows by unanimity and it does not expect to see that unanimity in the future though it will work for it. Finally if I can refer to the honourable member for Cardiff West, who wound up. Er, I'm glad that he's pleased that Wales got an extra seat, it has got an extra. [Lloyd:] unclear... the question is an a motion one. The question as on the order paper, say aye. [speaker001:] Aye. [Lloyd:] The no. [speaker001:] No. [Lloyd:] clear the lobbies.