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Re: earthviewer (was Re: whoa} >>>>> "K" == Kragen Sitaker <kragen@pobox.com> writes: K> Planning battle tactics; for this reason, the intelligence K> press reports, spy satellites have had 1-meter resolution for K> many years. The military already have these spy satellites; they are basically Hubble pointed the other way, so I doubt they will be a big enough customer of this service to justify a next-generation wireless network rollout for the rest of us. K> Finding an individual vehicle in a city might occasionally be K> possible with 1-m images and might occasionally also be worth K> the money. My car is only just over 1.5 meters across and maybe 3 meters long, so that means roughly six pixels total surface area. You might find a 16-wheeler this way, but how often do people misplace a 16-wheeler such that it is _that_ important to get old images of the terrain? Since they can't send up aircraft to update images in realtime every time, how is this different from just releasing the map on DVDs? Why wireless? I thought of the common problem of lost prize cattle, but there again, will there really be business-case for creating a hi-res map of wyoming on the fly instead of just doing what they do now and hiring a helicopter for a few hours? K> For small areas you have legitimate access to, it's probably K> cheaper to go there with a digital camera and a GPS and take K> some snapshots from ground level. Aerial photos might be K> cheaper for large areas, areas where you're not allowed --- or, K> perhaps, physically able --- to go, and cases where you don't K> have time to send a ground guy around the whole area. I can see lower-res being useful for Geologists, but considering their points of interest change only a few times every few million years, there's not much need to be wireless based on up-to-the-minute data. I expect most geologists travel with a laptop perfectly capable of DVD playback, and I also expect the most interesting geology is in regions where the wireless ain't going to go ;) I don't mean to nit-pick, it's just that I'm curious as to (a) the need for this product that justifies the extreme cost and (b) how we'd justify the ubiquitous next-generation wireless network that this product postulates when we /still/ can't find the killer app for 3G. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: whoa >>>>> "J" == James Rogers <jamesr@best.com> writes: J> ... They aren't selling the software, which is pretty pricy as J> it happens. They are using it to optimize next generation J> wireless canopies over metro areas and fiber networks on a J> large scale. There are an essentially infinite number of metro J> wireless configurations, some of which generate far more dead J> or marginal spots and others which are very expensive to J> operate (due to backhaul transit considerations) or both. This J> software can be used as a tool to optimize the canopy coverage J> and minimize the actual transit costs since the wireless is J> tied into fiber at multiple points. So you only need to map a handful of metropolitan areas? J> Or at least investors find this capability very sexy and J> compelling Ah ... now /that/ I will believe :) Don't mind me; I'm just getting even more cynical in my old age. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: earthviewer (was Re: whoa} On 9/8/02 8:09 PM, "Gary Lawrence Murphy" <garym@canada.com> wrote: > My car is only just over 1.5 meters across and maybe 3 meters long, so > that means roughly six pixels total surface area. You might find a > 16-wheeler this way, but how often do people misplace a 16-wheeler > such that it is _that_ important to get old images of the terrain? > Since they can't send up aircraft to update images in realtime every > time, how is this different from just releasing the map on DVDs? Why > wireless? It seems that several people are missing the point that this is NOT an image database. It is high-resolution topological data rendered in three dimensions. Images are overlayed on the topological data to help people navigate familiar terrain visually. In other words, it is not intended as a wannabe spy satellite. Rather it is a very accurate three dimensional model of the earth's surface. When a particular region in question is covered in a city, the buildings in the city are mapped as though they are part of the earth's surface. The part that makes the app killer is that you can map all sorts of data layers on top of their core topological data. Got it? -James Rogers jamesr@best.com

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... C On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Tom wrote: > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > --]doesn't look particularly difficult to do. > --] > --]Clearly this is not something what hets do, prostitution not taken into > --]account. > > So lets see, hets dont go to swing clubs, meat markets or the like at all? > Hmm. And being gay means hanging in the bath house being a cum dumpster > while you listen to the Devine Ms M belt one out for the boys? > > Ugh, with thinking like this who needs the bible belt? > > > > -- "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn

earthviewer apps Re: whoa Gary Lawrence Murphy cynicizes: > Hmmm, just as I thought. In other words, it has no practical uses > whatsoever ;) Tourism is the world's largest industry. Using this to preview your travels, or figure out where you are, would be very valuable. Online gaming continues to grow. Screw "Britannia", real-life Britain would be a fun world to wander/ conquer/explore virtually, in role-playing or real- time-strategy games. And of course, as James Rogers points out, it's an ideal display substrate for all sorts of other overlaid data. Maps are great, photrealistic 3-D maps of everywhere which can have many other static and dynamic datasets overlaid are spectacular. (Combining those last two thoughts: consider the static world map, in faded colors, with patches here-and-there covered by live webcams, stitched over the static info in bright colors... it'd be like the "fog of war" view in games like Warcraft, over the real world.) - Gordon

Re: earthviewer (was Re: whoa} >>>>> "J" == James Rogers <jamesr@best.com> writes: J> ... The part that makes the app killer is that you can map all J> sorts of data layers on top of their core topological data. J> Got it? Ah, ok ... so some sample applications come to mind, although none of them require wireless and would do with a DVD, but nonetheless ... - Forestry: Maps of the terrain are essential in predicting the spread of forest fires, esp if this is overlaid with the type of vegetation, recent waterfall &c - farming/conservation can use the high-resolution terrain to overlay water tables or watershed info. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: Recommended Viewing On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote: > who watched Lathe of Heaven? (A&E, 8 pm EDT) who has seen > the original? > By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that version much better. Much more thought provoking.

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote: > I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers? > are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more > AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of magnitude higher than average.

RE: Recommended Viewing Agreed, completely. I totally grokked the notion of unintened consequence with the original. -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of John Evdemon Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM To: Fork@xent.com Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote: > who watched Lathe of Heaven? (A&E, 8 pm EDT) who has seen > the original? > By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that version much better. Much more thought provoking.

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) ok i read back, thats not a typo, you mean three thousand lovers. where do you get your data? It seems very unlikely, but if you have supporting evidence i'd like to see it. Chris On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote: > > > I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays > > So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers? > > > are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more > > AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... > > The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your > brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex > industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of > magnitude higher than average. > > >

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Chris Haun wrote: > ok i read back, thats not a typo, you mean three thousand lovers. > where do you get your data? It seems very unlikely, but if you have > supporting evidence i'd like to see it. I haven't seen any official data on the web (the high-ranking hits are overrun by religious bigots), but there's some anecdotal evidence to be found in http://sunsite.berkeley.edu:2020/dynaweb/teiproj/oh/science/aidsnur2/@Generic__BookTextView/5406 (search for promiscuity). They mention 300 to 500 partners a year. (Anecdotally. This is not a statistic). They also mention that this was specific to gay males. Lesbians don't dig promiscuity in that degree.

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) EL> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote: >> I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays EL> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers? So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers? In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper. Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers? Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up. Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that would just be a lose. Just a quick assumption here. I'm not a math geek or anything, but assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover everyday for 8 years and some change. I don't know about you, but very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky) and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle something new into their weekends. You really are assumiing that the homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story) b) that bored/sex obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners. Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers. =BB >> are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more >> AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... EL> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your EL> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex EL> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of EL> magnitude higher than average. -- Best regards, bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net

Re[3]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) In addition, one bit of anecdotal evidence from a conversation in 1984! in San Fransisco is hardly enough to extrapolate 500 to 3k. This is the only quote I could find relating to promiscuity in homosexual men. "I think people feel a certain invulnerability, especially young people, like this disease doesn't affect me. The publicity about the disease was very much the kind where it was easy to say, "That isn't me. I'm not promiscuous." Promiscuity, especially, was a piece where people could easily say, "Well, I'm not. Promiscuous is more than I do." If you have 300 partners a year, you can think you're not promiscuous if you know somebody who has 500. So it's all relative, and it was easy to feel that that isn't me." You could find hets who have the same kind of partner volume. BFD. This kind of random generation of numbers that leads the nutty religious bigots (as you mentioned earlier). Grr. Bits damnit. Now, I must go brief. -BB EL>> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote: >>> I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays EL>> So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers? bmn> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers? bmn> In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper. bmn> Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the bmn> gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers? bmn> Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at bmn> least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up. bmn> Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that bmn> would just be a lose. bmn> Just a quick assumption here. I'm not a math geek or anything, but bmn> assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover bmn> everyday for 8 years and some change. I don't know about you, but bmn> very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky) bmn> and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle bmn> something new into their weekends. You really are assumiing that the bmn> homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas bmn> might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in bmn> say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite bmn> a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story) b) that bored/sex bmn> obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many bmn> partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners. bmn> Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers. bmn> =BB >>> are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more >>> AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... EL>> The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your EL>> brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex EL>> industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of EL>> magnitude higher than average. -- Best regards, bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) > So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers? > > In fact, thats a general question for FoRK proper. Uh, zero. I'm sort of offended at having to take this question seriously, like being black and having to actually explain that black people don't all sing and dance. I'd guess that gay men compared to straight men have a linearly greater number of sexual partners on the order of 1.5-2X. But then again, it not a monolithic or homogeneous community. Who knows? 3K is utter shite. - Lucas

Re: earthviewer apps Re: whoa On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Gordon Mohr wrote: --]Gary Lawrence Murphy cynicizes: --]> Hmmm, just as I thought. In other words, it has no practical uses --]> whatsoever ;) --] --]Online gaming continues to grow. Screw "Britannia", --]real-life Britain would be a fun world to wander/ --]conquer/explore virtually, in role-playing or real- --]time-strategy games. Andthus....Geocaching.....this would make a nice little "let me check this set of coord out before we trek into 10 feet of quicksand"

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote: > So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers? Just one. Not everybody does that. Most of them are now dead, anyway. > Do you know anyone, outside of meybee Wilt Chamberlin and a few of the > gang-bang porn queens who -have- had even 1.5k lovers? Yes. Notice that I've specifically excluded sex industry. That be cheating. > Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at > least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up. Ain't done no hypothesizing. Anecdotal evidence'R'Us. Couldn't you just Google, or something? > Otherwise we're liable to assume rampant unfounded homophobia and that > would just be a lose. Yeah, I'm a gay Jew Nazi Muslim who's also a lead character on Kaz's underworld. Can we go on with the programme now? > Just a quick assumption here. I'm not a math geek or anything, but > assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover > everyday for 8 years and some change. I don't know about you, but > very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky) Which was my point. Gurls don't do hyperpromiscuity as a life style. It's interesting that you're launching into a diatribe, and threaten using instant argument (just add hominem) instead of assuming I might be not just pulling this whole thing out my nether orifice. > and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle > something new into their weekends. You really are assumiing that the > homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas You ever been to San Francisco? > might qualify, but try finding that kind of homosexual population in > say, Tulsa, Oklahoma or Manchester, NH (Tho Manchester does have quite Yeah, I think it could be also difficult finding a gay bathhouse in Thule, Greenland. Or parts of central Africa. To think of it, both Oort and Kuiper belts are utterly devoid of gay people as well. Isn't this remarkable? > a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story) b) that bored/sex > obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many > partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners. This doesn't happen because it couldn't happen. No one would want to. Because you feel that way. Correct? > Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers. I didn't expect so much reflexive knee-jerking on this list.

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote: --]3K is utter shite. --] 3k is a number that probably sounds good to some closted homophobe with secret desires to be "belle of the balls". Twinks dinks and dorks, this thread sounds to me like someone needs a little luvin.

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Lucas Gonze wrote: > a linearly greater number of sexual partners on the order of 1.5-2X. But > then again, it not a monolithic or homogeneous community. Who knows? Did I claim "all gay people are hyperpromiscuous"? For what this is worth, I would claim they're considerably more promiscuous on the average than your average het. My utterly unscientific, unsubstatiated claim is that the typical male would *like* to be considerably more promiscous than your average female (ay, and here's the rub. pray don't forget the kleenex). Look up different reproduction strategies, due to basic hardware difference (sexual dimorphism). You'd do that too if it happened to you. Once you go past the first three of four pages of hysterical propaganda on Google you might actually run into real studies. Anyone game? I have to work (well, pretend to). > 3K is utter shite. This is getting better and better. You know 3K is utter shite how? You just feel the number can't be right, yes? Deep inside? I'm way overposting today, but I find this entire exchange hee-lay-rious.

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) Tom wrote: > 3k is a number that probably sounds good to some closted homophobe with > secret desires to be "belle of the balls". Twinks dinks and dorks, this > thread sounds to me like someone needs a little luvin. I dunno if I'd accuse everybody who believes the 3K number of needing a little luvin, but I completely believe that this myth has survived because there's a lot of people who need more lovin. Plus it fits in with a bunch of different archetypes. - Lucas

Re[3]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) EL> On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 bitbitch@magnesium.net wrote: >> So Eugen, how many of your homo friends have -had- 3k lovers? EL> Just one. Not everybody does that. Most of them are now dead, anyway. Point is, you're not likely to extrapolate much. I could probably find one hetero who had just as much sex. Does that mean we're all rampant hos? No. >> Eegads, if you're hypothesizing numbers like -that- Eugen, you at >> least owe it to FoRK to back that shit up. EL> Ain't done no hypothesizing. Anecdotal evidence'R'Us. Couldn't you just EL> Google, or something? Listen. If you pull numbers like that without a fact, the automagic assumption is yes, they were extracted out of your neither orifice. Point wasn't to conclude otherwise unless you had any relevant bits. Its not my job to do _your_ bit searching for you, but I figured I'd humor fork with this bit of finding: http://www.thebody.com/bp/apr01/research_notebook.html (Pointing ot averages of about 13 for every 3 months (for gay men), which totals to about 52 a year. 52 a year doesn't equal 3000. Or even 300. >> Just a quick assumption here. I'm not a math geek or anything, but >> assuming 1 lover every day, that would be like at least one lover >> everyday for 8 years and some change. I don't know about you, but >> very very few of us are -that- lucky (or even close to that lucky) EL> Which was my point. Gurls don't do hyperpromiscuity as a life style. It's EL> interesting that you're launching into a diatribe, and threaten using EL> instant argument (just add hominem) instead of assuming I might be not EL> just pulling this whole thing out my nether orifice. WTF do my shitty math skillz have to do with girls and hyperpromiscuity? I was speaking -generally- meaning that guys and girls probably have better things to do than boink everything they see. As above, I am assuming you're pulling things out of your ass, I just felt like calling you on it. BTW, there's nothing wrong with calling someone on a silly idea. Its allowed, and its generally not considered ad hominem, but the homophobia statement might be. >> and after awhile, even the sexaholics get bored and have to mingle >> something new into their weekends. You really are assumiing that the >> homosexual population is a) that large in a given area (The meccas EL> You ever been to San Francisco? Many times. Which is why I said 'assuming that large ... (The meccas dont count). SF is a mecca in this example. I obviously wasn't clear, tho one could assume I wasn't talking about Medina. >> a few nifty gaybars, but thats a different story) b) that bored/sex >> obsessed/recreationally free to pursue sex that often, with that many >> partners or that they'd even WANT that many partners. EL> This doesn't happen because it couldn't happen. No one would want to. EL> Because you feel that way. Correct? doesn't happen? true. Couldn't happen? who knows. It has nothing to do with how I 'feel' and everything to do with the fact that people do concern themselves with more than just sex (otherwise I think we'd see a helluva lot more of sex, and a helluva lot less of everything else). >> Qualify yourself, or at least lower your outrageous numbers. EL> I didn't expect so much reflexive knee-jerking on this list. Well my suggestion is, if you can't take the responses, don't post flamebait. -- Best regards, bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, CDale wrote: > > > I agree w/ ya Tom. That kind of thinking is SO idiotic. Sure, gays > > So how many of your hetero friends had >3 k lovers? None. How many of my gay friends have had > 3k lovers? None. > > > are promiscuous, and so are hets, but I betcha gays are more > > AIDSphobic than hets, generally speaking.... > > The virus load issue is orthogonal to the fact. Bzzt. Switch on your > brain, you both. I was mentioning that a subpopulation outside of the sex > industry is/used to be extremely promiscuous, about two orders of > magnitude higher than average. two orders of magnitude higher than average isn't 3k, I don't think. Why don't ya give us a url or something that told you all this stuff? Or did you just pull it out of your ass? (: C

Re[2]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) > This is getting better and better. You know 3K is utter shite how? I'm not going to be your spokesman, Eugen. Figure it out yourself. over and out.

Re: Re[3]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) Bitbitch writes: > Listen. If you pull numbers like that without a fact, the automagic > assumption is yes, they were extracted out of your neither orifice. > Point wasn't to conclude otherwise unless you had any relevant bits. > Its not my job to do _your_ bit searching for you, but I figured I'd > humor fork with this bit of finding: > > http://www.thebody.com/bp/apr01/research_notebook.html (Pointing ot > averages of about 13 for every 3 months (for gay men), which totals to > about 52 a year. 52 a year doesn't equal 3000. Or even 300. Er, that study would seem to lend credence to Eugen's estimations, rather than casting fresh doubts. 52 a year *does* exceed 300, in under 6 years' time. The average age of that study's participants was *39* -- meaning some participants may have had 20-25+ years of active sex life. At that age, and further ** HIV+ **, it seems reasonable to think that some the participants may have actually slowed their pace a bit. So while this study's summary info is incomplete, you could easily conclude that the *average* participant in this one study will have had over a thousand partners over a 40-50+ year active sex life, and so the even-more-active tails of the distribution could easily be in the 3000+ range. Of course this says very little, almost nothing, about the overall population behavior, gay or straight, and the relative prevalence of 3K+ individuals in either group. But it does strongly suggest that gay males with 3K+ partners exist in measurable numbers, so people should stop treating Eugen's anecdotal estimation as if it were sheer fantasy. BitBitch's own citation suggests otherwise. - Gordon

[CYBERIA] [Final CfP]: Int. J. on IT Standards Research --- begin forwarded text Priority: normal Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:56:49 +0000 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Comments: Authenticated sender is jakobs@i4mail.informatik.rwth-aachen.de From: Kai Jakobs <Kai.Jakobs@I4.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE> Subject: [CYBERIA] [Final CfP]: Int. J. on IT Standards Research To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Hello, Just a brief reminder that the deadline for submisisons for issue 2 of the 'International Journal of IT Standards & Standardization Research' (JITSR) is October 1. JITSR is a new, multi-disciplinary publication outlet for everyone who is doing research into IT standards and standardisation (from whichever perspective). So if you think you've got a paper that might fit - why not submit it for JITSR? And please do ask if you need any further information. Greetings from Aachen. Cheers, Kai. ----------------------------- Call for Papers for Issue 2 of the International Journal of IT Standards & Standardization Research This new journal aims to be a platform for presenting, and discussing, the broad variety of aspects that make up IT standards research. This includes, but is certainly not limited to, contributions from the disciplines of computer science, information systems, management, business, social sciences (especially science and technology studies), economics, engineering, political science, public policy, sociology, communication, and human factors/ usability. In particular, the journal wants to both support and promote multi-disciplinary research on IT standards; 'IT' should be understood in a very broad sense. Topics to be covered include, but are not limited to: - Technological innovation and standardisation - Standards for information infrastructures - Standardisation and economic development - Open Source and standardisation - Intellectual property rights - Economics of standardisation - Emerging roles of formal standards organisations and consortia - Conformity assessment - National, regional, international and corporate standards strategies - Standardisation and regulation - Standardisation as a form of the Public Sphere - Standardisation and public policy formation - Analyses of standards setting processes, products, and organisation - Case studies of standardisation - Impacts of market-driven standardisation and emerging players - The future of standardisation - Multinational and transnational perspectives and impacts - Commercial value of proprietary specifications - Descriptive & prescriptive theories of standardisation - Standards research and education activities - Tools and services supporting improved standardisation - User related issues - Risks of standardisation - Management of standards - History of Standards - Standards and technology transfer Authors are requested to submit their manuscripts as an e-mail attachment in RTF or PDF to the editor-in-chief at Kai.Jakobs@i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de. If this form of submission is not possible, please send one hardcopy of the manuscript together with a disk containing the electronic version of the manuscript in RTF or PDF to: Kai Jakobs, Technical University of Aachen, Computer Science Department, Informatik IV Ahornstr. 55, D-52074 Aachen, Germany. Manuscripts must be written in English on letter-size or A4 paper, one side only, double-spaced throughout, and include at least 1" (2.54 cm) of margin on all sides. The cover page should contain the paper title, and the name, affiliation, address, phone number, fax number, and e-mail address of each author. The second page should start with the paper title at the top and be immediately followed by the abstract. Except on the cover page, the authors' names and affiliations must NOT appear in the manuscript. The abstract of 100- 150 words should clearly summarise the objectives and content of the manuscript. Submitted manuscript should normally be 4000-6000 words long; longer ones will be considered but may be subject to editorial revision. Submission of a paper implies that its content is original and that it has not been published previously, and that it is not under consideration for publication elsewhere. Yet, significantly extended papers previously presented at conferences may be acceptable. For more information please see http://www-i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~jakobs/standards_journal/journal_home.html or visit the publisher's web site at http://www.idea-group.com/journals/details.asp?id=497 Important Dates for the Inaugural Issue: Submission Deadline for Issue 2: October 1, 2002 Notification of Acceptance: December 1, 2002 Camera-ready Paper Due: January 15, 2003 ________________________________________________________________ Kai Jakobs Technical University of Aachen Computer Science Department Informatik IV (Communication and Distributed Systems) Ahornstr. 55, D-52074 Aachen, Germany Tel.: +49-241-80-21405 Fax: +49-241-80-22220 Kai.Jakobs@i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de http://www-i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~jakobs/kai/kai_home.html ********************************************************************** For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request@listserv.aol.com ********************************************************************** --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Internet radio - example from a college station Just thought i'd pass this on, my favorite radio station in raleigh is going off the internet due to the new fees and restrictions associated with remaining online. this is from the station manager and describes the situation. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:13:17 -0400 From: Arielle <gm@wknc.org> Subject: RE: KNC Stream [1:51144:51751] This message was sent from: WKNC Chat. <http://wknc.org/forum/read.php?f=1&i=51751&t=51144> ---------------------------------------------------------------- It does, but it's not the cost that is causing us to shut it down. The cost is a "minimum $500 per year"... but that only accounts for 18 people streaming and playing like 13 or 14 songs an hour. But we could maybe manage the 2 cents per person, per 100 songs. The problem comes with the record keeping they mandate with webstreaming. Start and end times for every song (not too hard), artist (okay), title (okay), composers (a little harder), serial number (wtf??). I think there are a few more things they wanted, but honestly, programming this info in for every song that we play is ridiculous. This means we'd also have to get all the DJs to find this info and write it down any time they play a request, vinyl, or CDs not loaded into the computer. It's ridiculous and nearly impossible... We would need someone to sit in the studio 24/7 writing down all this info - which sometimes isn't available, like from earlier album that don't have serial numbers and barcodes. Then still if only the magic 18 people webstream our signal, the price would become quite exponential since we play on average 16 songs an hour, we'd be paying $22.11 everyday to stream to those 18 people. So really, it does have to do with the internet tax, but it is a few reasons together why we can't do it after their kill-date. :( ---------------------------------------------------------------- Sent using Phorum software version 3.2.6 <http://phorum.org>

Re: Re[3]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) Here are numbers that come from a study of a couple of thousand swedes, with no reference to sexual preference that I could find. The point would seem to be that (1) sexual activity follows a power curve, with a few people, a la Wilt Chamberlain, having an extaordinarily large number of sexual contacts, ev en in a short period of time and (2) a tendency for men to have more partners than women. I have no idea, being a statistical ignoramus, whether the fact that there seem to be more men than women at the extremely promiscuous end of the sex-partners-distribution curve means that you'd get even more extreme results in a group of men who chiefly have sex with other men. http://polymer.bu.edu/~amaral/Sex_partners/Content_sex.html <<For example, the mean number of partners since sexual initiation for women is approximately 7 and in a sample of less than 1500 Swedish women we find an individual with 100 partners. For men, the mean is approximately 15 and we find an individual with 800 partners, which is almost 50 times larger than the mean! So, somehow Don Juan was not such an extraordinary case but just one data point in a wide spectrum of behaviors that can be observed. >> As for gay men: There is indeed anecdotal evidence of cases of extreme promiscuity among gay men. You can read about it in Randy Schiltz's And the Band Played On. He writes about bathhouse culture pre-HIV; he also discusses how, in the gay politics of the time, there was a sub-culture of what you might call radical gay men who argued (and acted on the argument) that having many partners was an essential part of what being gay actually was. It was an explicitly political statement: monogamy is an artifact of straight culture. That view seems to have died, in more ways than one. Part of the point of Schiltz's book was to condemn the role that it and bathhouse culture played in spreading the AIDs epidemic that eventually killed Schiltz, among so many others. This doesn't let Eugen off the hook--but it is accurate to say that there was a cult of promiscuity that was particular to the gay community. Tom

Re: Internet radio - example from a college station Chris Haun wrote: > > We would need someone to sit in the studio 24/7 writing down all this info - > which sometimes isn't available, like from earlier album that don't have > serial numbers and barcodes. Then still if only the magic 18 people > webstream our signal, the price would become quite exponential since we play > on average 16 songs an hour, we'd be paying $22.11 everyday to stream to > those 18 people. So really, it does have to do with the internet tax, but it > is a few reasons together why we can't do it after their kill-date. :( Who is John Galt? (RoUS in the throes of reading Atlas Shrugged again) -- #ken P-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!"

Re: Re[3]: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) At 8:16 AM -0700 on 9/9/02, Gordon Mohr wrote: <Calculations elided...> > Of course this says very little, almost nothing, about the overall > population behavior, gay or straight, and the relative prevalence > of 3K+ individuals in either group. But it does strongly suggest > that gay males with 3K+ partners exist in measurable numbers, so > people should stop treating Eugen's anecdotal estimation as if it > were sheer fantasy. BitBitch's own citation suggests otherwise. That math stuff's, a, um, bitch, i'nit? ;-) Cheers, RAH [Who could care less who boinks whom, or for how much, though watching the Righteous Anger(tm) around here this morning *has* been amusing...] -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

RE: The Big Jump Why so fast? Normal terminal velocity is much slower. > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of > bitbitch@magnesium.net > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:36 AM > To: (Robert Harley) > Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org > Subject: Re: The Big Jump > > > > So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it? > > Freaking french people... > :-) > -BB > RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get in a > RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40 km > RH> altitude) and jump out. His fall should last 6.5 minutes and reach > RH> speeds of Mach 1.5. He hopes to open his parachute manually at the > RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the > RH> ground and still hasn't opened it. > > RH> R > > RH> ObQuote: > RH> "Veder�, si aver� si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di Franza." > RH> ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!") > RH> - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511 > > > > -- > Best regards, > bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net

RE: Recommended Viewing Isn't this the story where someone's "Dream" has the ability to change reality -- then you find the whole world is their dream? > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of Geege > Schuman > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:26 AM > To: John Evdemon > Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org > Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing > > Agreed, completely. I totally grokked the notion of unintened consequence > with the original. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of John > Evdemon > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM > To: Fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing > > > On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote: > > > who watched Lathe of Heaven? (A&E, 8 pm EDT) who has seen > > the original? > > > By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that > version much better. Much more thought provoking. > > >

Re: The Big Jump John Hall wrote: >Why so fast? Normal terminal velocity is much slower. > > Not at 40,000 m. I found this article (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,53928,00.html) : "The last person to try to break the highest free fall record died in the attempt. In 1965, New Jersey truck driver Nick Piantanida suffered catastrophic equipment failure when his facemask blew out at 57,000 feet. Lack of oxygen caused such severe brain damage that he went into a coma and died four months later." And in amongst the flash at http://www.legrandsaut.org/site_en/ you can discover that he will break the sound barrier at 35,000 m, presumably reaching top speed somewhere above 30,000. Owen > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of >>bitbitch@magnesium.net >>Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:36 AM >>To: (Robert Harley) >>Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org >>Subject: Re: The Big Jump >> >> >> >>So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it? >> >>Freaking french people... >> :-) >>-BB >>RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get >> >> >in a > > >>RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40 >> >> >km > > >>RH> altitude) and jump out. His fall should last 6.5 minutes and >> >> >reach > > >>RH> speeds of Mach 1.5. He hopes to open his parachute manually at >> >> >the > > >>RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the >>RH> ground and still hasn't opened it. >> >>RH> R >> >>RH> ObQuote: >>RH> "Veder�, si aver� si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di >> >> >Franza." > > >>RH> ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!") >>RH> - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511 >> >> >> >>-- >>Best regards, >> bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net >> >> > > > >

Re: The Big Jump On Mon, Sep 09, 2002 at 11:01:22AM -0700, John Hall wrote: > Why so fast? Normal terminal velocity is much slower. Terminal velocity can be calculated by $v_{T} = \sqrt{\frac{2mg}{CpA}}$ where C is an experimentally determined coefficient, p is the density of the air, and A is the area of the object. These calculations only work if the object is blunt and the airflow is turbulent, blah blah blah. Terminal velocity for a skydiver actually varies with how the diver holds themselves -- you go faster if you pull yourself into a cannonball. That is the "A", for the most part. All else being equal, the terminal velocity is inversely proportional to the square root of air density. Air density drops off pretty quickly, and I really should be doing something other than digging up the math for that. I think it involves calculus to integrate the amount of mass as the column of the atmosphere trails off. I grabbed the other stuff directly out of a book :). In '87 a guy named Gregory Robertson noticed a fellow parachutist Debbie Williams had been knocked unconscious. He shifted so that he was head down, hit about 200 mi/h, and caught up with her and pulled her chute with 10 seconds to spare. -- njl

RE: Recommended Viewing more accurately: someone's dream changes reality for everyone, and everyone's memory adjusts to perceive the new realities as a continuum, replete with new pasts and new memories. ever have dreams that "create" their own history to make their irrealities plausible and authentic feeling? ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all day? i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory processes, where you don't actually remember but you feel like you're remembering. ggggggggg -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of John Hall Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:03 PM To: FoRK Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing Isn't this the story where someone's "Dream" has the ability to change reality -- then you find the whole world is their dream? > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of Geege > Schuman > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:26 AM > To: John Evdemon > Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org > Subject: RE: Recommended Viewing > > Agreed, completely. I totally grokked the notion of unintened consequence > with the original. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of John > Evdemon > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:03 AM > To: Fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing > > > On 8 Sep 2002 at 22:15, Geege Schuman wrote: > > > who watched Lathe of Heaven? (A&E, 8 pm EDT) who has seen > > the original? > > > By "original" if you are referring to the old PBS version, I liked that > version much better. Much more thought provoking. > > >

Re: Recommended Viewing On Monday 09 September 2002 09:51 pm, Geege Schuman wrote > ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all > day?i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream > that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory > processes, where > you don't actually remember but you feel like you're > remembering. Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it. I've done some writing based on dreams, and there is a mysterious "mood" to that feeling that drives some creative stuff for me. I've never tried to write music in that state, but I will next time. Eirikur

Re: Recommended Viewing Any of your writing online anywhere? Would love to take a look. I was plagued with night terrors for years and tried to capture that feeling after waking up (if you want to call that waking up), but was never able to... Cindy On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Eirikur Hallgrimsson wrote: > On Monday 09 September 2002 09:51 pm, Geege Schuman wrote > > ever notice how the feelings evoked in some dreams stick with you all > > day?i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during the dream > > that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, triggered by memory > > processes, where > you don't actually remember but you feel like you're > > remembering. > > Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it. I've done some writing based > on dreams, and there is a mysterious "mood" to that feeling that drives > some creative stuff for me. I've never tried to write music in that > state, but I will next time. > > Eirikur > > > -- "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn

Re: Recommended Viewing >>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman <geege@barrera.org> writes: G> ... i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during G> the dream that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, G> triggered by memory processes, where you don't actually G> remember but you feel like you're remembering. That's very perceptive of you. Many people are not so willing to accept their personal reality as skewed by their neuro-physiology. A great many popular con games exist by exploiting the perceptions of these states. Another oft-exploited neuro-plausibility: The brain is a pretty darn fine analog associative computer, so it could be the neurochemical events during the dream have associated themselves with some inner or external cue to mentally _recreate_ the state-perception like the predictable tone on striking a bell. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: Recommended Viewing >>>>> "E" == Eirikur Hallgrimsson <eh@mad.scientist.com> writes: E> Absolutely, and I've wanted to recapture it. I don't know about this /particular/ mood, but I have used neuro-conditioning with aiding children in stressful life-circumstances. Basically, you somehow evoke the state you want, and when you get it, you do something odd, anything at all will do, but I used a gentle "vulcan grip" on their shoulder. Later, when faced with the uncomfortable situation, you can retrieve /part/ of that earlier more desireable state by giving them the pinch; it's not perfect (like you get with simpler brains) but it is an inescapable effect. This is probably the neuro-effect that leads to performance-enhancing superstitions such as Bob Dylan not performing without his favourite jean jacket: Because it provides the cue to a more relaxed mental state, he really does play better with it than without it. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

UAE/Ami*/Linux Laptop: Important details. Well, for one, it would free up the similar laptop I already got to just run Amithlon (or if that wasn't so fun, bsd) to run just OpenBSD! This is a near-term thing I could look forward to! However, an 'official' laptop seems unexciting to me with only the items mentioned. Most important are the particulars distinguishing the listed spec from a Dell 2650, preferably: 1- GeForce4 440 Go or newer, pleasingly modern GPU; the GeForce2Go (with 16MB video RAM; too little) I have is not so much too slow as inefficient; with factory settings it would actually crash from running too hot and too fast. (Accelerating the Ami* and possibly OpenUAE graphics is a necessity to meet for good speed in those environments, but an energy-efficient GPU is a good sideeffect and portability (read: battery lifetime) enabler.) 1.5- Great control over CPU state; by use of 'internet keys' wired to BIOS/bhipset routines directly or preferably a scroll wheel. Also, hibernate that works, please. 1.7- Bootable to USB 2.0 drives (e.g. larger external ones) in BIOS, please. 2- P4 Dells overheat. They have a big heatsink and a little fan to pull air through it, and if you don't elevate thelaptop off the desk or table or bed it's on, the fan will -stay- on. Not good for MTBS (mean time between service; unless you've got an angle on making money on service from Amigans.....) One excellent solution is to include a heatpipe which runs behind the AMLCD, thus using the backside of the display half as a radiator.; though it interferes with the case notion below. (yes, Aavid or such makes some as a standard part.) I prefer to include the heatpipe but employ the radiative mass in elevating the laptop (i.e. in the form of a catch-handle and second logo device behind the laptop, which generally provides stow and attachment for elevation legs (move them out farther to get to the next-higher ekevation, until the sides of the laptop are met.) This also happens to provide a little protection for USB 2 and 1394 cables that I tend to keep plugged in all the time (a bit longer port life? Please.) 3- A case color other than brown or black, and preferably (if the display module NRE is entirely permissive) the capability to -run with the backlight off.- Again, to save battery power, but also as a feature; maybe you remember the iBooks modified in this manner. The user has the privilege to pull out the backlight diffuser and fiberoptic lightpipe/CF assembly, with its backreflector, and the whole warrantee. This provides for excellent outdoor use, often with the diffuser reinserted to keep depth-of-field distractions minimised. What would I like? A1200 putty color, any translucency, in or over a rosewood-colored (in KDE color browser, I see chocolate, firebrick and a couple of 'indian red' that are great candidates) base. I would also like to be able to at least turn off the backlight without closing the lid, and to be -able- to fit an -external- light source such as a UV-filtered solar collector (and glare hood) to feed into the backlight. Not only does this make an excellent color environment but lets one work outdoors tolerably. The logo should be a coloration of a minimal surface, as the MAA is trying to get me to renew with: demos at http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/pbourke/geometry/ at first blush. We'll see what comes out of the contest and maybe you'll like the mapping MathCAD does of the logo to a minimal surface or manifold that reflects the openness of AmigaOS, Ami* and Amiga community. MAA.org has more references, I'm sure. 4- Obviously Elfin details., e,g, the backlight inlet. Other details: USB2.x preferred; FireWire would be needed if that's unavailable. Options like 802.11b or attabhable WiFi hub for ethernet port should round out the offering. An option for just-released .13 micron P4 (with mobile power features) could make more reviewers greenlight the series; much better power consumption, and almost certainly a higher a top clock come with that. CompactFlash, SmartMedia and MMC flash memory card interfaces would be very pleasant. I've mentioned booting to USB, and booting from CF would be a pleasant extigency also. To that end, a backup solution with compression using USB 2 storage or the multimode drive is always a nice bundle item; that or a chance to back out a patch under 3 OS..... Blue skies (and clear water and fresh air): Waterproof to 30 feet, 3 Ethernet ports plus onboard WiFi. Svelte; 3-line frontpanel LCD and bright red pager LED, builtin G4 cellphone functions, choice of side and frontpanel trim: Ivory-like stuff inscribed with M68k memory map and various OS 3.9 structures or textured fur that says 'This is Amiga Speaking' when stroked 'round. Decent keyboard, as in Toshiba or IBM laptops; perhaps an ergonomic fingerworks.com device (they work as keyboard and mouse) as the keyboard/trackpad. 2 Directional planar mics atop AMLCD; soundcard with multiple 18 bit A-D and noise reduction DSP that work in our (second-through-fourth, at least) favorite OS. Actual 7" bellows pulls out at nominal ventilation fan location for real void-comp (the test in Blade Runner) style cooling and extended bass; active cooling and airfiltering is available to adjust humidity at user seat and provide mineral water. HyperTransport ports.

Re: The Big Jump On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Ned Jackson Lovely wrote: > In '87 a guy named Gregory Robertson noticed a fellow parachutist Debbie > Williams had been knocked unconscious. He shifted so that he was head down, > hit about 200 mi/h, and caught up with her and pulled her chute with 10 seconds > to spare. IIRC it's ~180 km/s spreadeagled and ~210 km/h head-down.

RE: Recommended Viewing you meant "SURPRISINGLY perceptive," didn't you? :-) recent exceptionally vivid and strange dreams lead me to believe i'm sparking synapses that have lain dormant lo these many years. Lots of problem solving going on up there at night. -----Original Message----- From: garym@maya.dyndns.org [mailto:garym@maya.dyndns.org]On Behalf Of Gary Lawrence Murphy Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:16 PM To: Geege Schuman Cc: johnhall@evergo.net; FoRK Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing >>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman <geege@barrera.org> writes: G> ... i'm sure it's some neurochemical process initiated during G> the dream that is still cycling thru - like a deja vu, G> triggered by memory processes, where you don't actually G> remember but you feel like you're remembering. That's very perceptive of you. Many people are not so willing to accept their personal reality as skewed by their neuro-physiology. A great many popular con games exist by exploiting the perceptions of these states. Another oft-exploited neuro-plausibility: The brain is a pretty darn fine analog associative computer, so it could be the neurochemical events during the dream have associated themselves with some inner or external cue to mentally _recreate_ the state-perception like the predictable tone on striking a bell. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) Gordon Mohr: >It was clear you were talking about averages. But it should >be equally clear that that isn't what people mean when they >use the word "promiscuity". Sigh. This sprung out of a report linked by Cindy about the promiscuity of female monkeys with males other than the alpha male, i.e, specifically not the tail end of the distribution. "By mating with as many extra-group males as possible, female langurs ensure [etc.]" >OK, then. Consider a population of 1,000,000. 500,000 men each >pair off with 500,000 women. Then, 1 man, let's call him "Wilt", >also has sex with the other 499,999 women This has never happened. Its relevance is nil. >Averages are useful, sure -- but much more so if called by their >actual name, rather than conflated with another concept. So I chose not to type "on average" explicitly in my post, since this is FoRK and one tends to assume that people have a clue. There is no disagreement between us, except that I am more interested in typical behaviour and you in extreme. Actually, you probably just had a bad day and felt like jumping down my throat for the hell of it. EOT, AFAIC. R

Re: Recommended Viewing >>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman <geege@barrera.org> writes: G> you meant "SURPRISINGLY perceptive," didn't you? :-) Of course, dear. Especially without zazen training. Veritably Operational Thetan-like. G> recent exceptionally vivid and strange dreams lead me to G> believe i'm sparking synapses that have lain dormant lo these G> many years. Lots of problem solving going on up there at G> night. It's a myth that we don't use parts of our brain. We use it all, always. It's just that our culturally-induced focal-point causes most of us to most of the time ignore and waste 99.999% of it. "Lucid" is a measure of notch-filter bandwidth; all stations are broadcasting, but we only /choose/ Easy Rock 105. For example, don't look now but your shoes are full of feet. The sensation of toes the above statement evokes is not a "turning on" of circuits, it is a "tuning in". The next step, of course, is to "drop out" :) To paraphrase an old saw: Life is wasted on the living. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: Recommended Viewing On 10 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: --]It's a myth that we don't use parts of our brain. We use it all, --]always. It's just that our culturally-induced focal-point causes most --]of us to most of the time ignore and waste 99.999% of it. "Lucid" is --]a measure of notch-filter bandwidth; all stations are broadcasting, --]but we only /choose/ Easy Rock 105. --] --]For example, don't look now but your shoes are full of feet. Nice imagery. When the filters come down ( choose your method)it is very much the case. Not only are your shoes full of toes, but your toes are full of bones, blood , muscle and toejam. All these things are evident...unless you got your filters up. Life, the ultimate spam:)- -tom

Re: Tech's Major Decline I'm not sure which way to make the old bits call on this: [A] <http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2002-September/014448.html> was posted well after [B] <http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2002-August/014351.html> was in the archives, but then again, [B] didn't bother with any commentary (new bits). If you two can agree upon who was at fault, penance will be to explain how feedback phase is affected by time lags, and tie that in to the spontaneous generation of "business cycles" in the Beer Game. * -Dave * <http://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/SDG/beergame.html> see also: Explaining Capacity Overshoot and Price War: Misperceptions of Feedback in Competitive Growth Markets <http://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/B&B_Rev.html> in which the scenario 4 (margin oriented tit for tat) seems close to the strategy described in: "game theoretical gandhi / more laptops" <http://www.xent.com/aug00/0200.html>

NYTimes.com Article: Some Friends, Indeed, Do More Harm Than Good This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by khare@alumni.caltech.edu. Sure does explain FoRK :-) not yet abandoned, Rohit khare@alumni.caltech.edu Some Friends, Indeed, Do More Harm Than Good September 10, 2002 By MARY DUENWALD Friends are supposed to be good for you. In recent years, scientific research has suggested that people who have strong friendships experience less stress, they recover more quickly from heart attacks and they are likely to live longer than the friendless. They are even less susceptible to the common cold, studies show. But not all friends have such a salutary effect. Some lie, insult and betray. Some are overly needy. Some give too much advice. Psychologists and sociologists are now calling attention to the negative health effects of bad friends. "Friendship is often very painful," said Dr. Harriet Lerner, a psychologist and the author of "The Dance of Connection." "In a close, enduring friendship, jealousy, envy, anger and the entire range of difficult emotions will rear their heads. One has to decide whether the best thing is to consider it a phase in a long friendship or say this is bad for my health and I'm disbanding it." Another book, "When Friendship Hurts," by Dr. Jan Yager, a sociologist at the University of Connecticut at Stamford, advises deliberately leaving bad friends by the wayside. "There's this myth that friendships should last a lifetime," Dr. Yager said. "But sometimes it's better that they end." That social scientists would wait until now to spotlight the dangers of bad friends is understandable, considering that they have only recently paid close attention to friendship at all. Marriage and family relationships - between siblings or parents and children - have been seen as more important. Of course, troubled friendships are far less likely to lead to depression or suicide than troubled marriages are. And children are seldom seriously affected when friendships go bad. As a popular author of relationship advice books, Dr. Lerner said, "Never once have I had anyone write and say my best friend hits me." Dr. Beverley Fehr, a professor of psychology at the University of Winnipeg, noted that sociological changes, like a 50 percent divorce rate, have added weight to the role of friends in emotional and physical health. "Now that a marital relationship can't be counted on for stability the way it was in the past, and because people are less likely to be living with or near extended family members, people are shifting their focus to friendships as a way of building community and finding intimacy," said Dr. Fehr, the author of "Friendship Processes." Until the past couple of years, the research on friendship focused on its health benefits. "Now we're starting to look at it as a more full relationship," said Dr. Suzanna Rose, a professor of psychology at Florida International University in Miami. "Like marriage, friendship also has negative characteristics." The research is in its infancy. Psychologists have not yet measured the ill effects of bad friendship, Dr. Fehr said. So far they have only, through surveys and interviews, figured out that it is a significant problem. The early research, Dr. Fehr added, is showing that betrayal by a friend can be more devastating than experts had thought. How can a friend be bad? Most obviously, Dr. Rose said, by drawing a person into criminal or otherwise ill-advised pursuit. "When you think of people who were friends at Enron," she added, "you can see how friendship can support antisocial behavior." Betrayal also makes for a bad friendship. "When friends split up," said Dr. Keith E. Davis, a professor of psychology at the University of South Carolina, "it is often in cases where one has shared personal information or secrets that the other one wanted to be kept confidential." Another form of betrayal, Dr. Yager said, is when a friend suddenly turns cold, without ever explaining why. "It's more than just pulling away," she said. "The silent treatment is actually malicious." At least as devastating is an affair with the friend's romantic partner, as recently happened to one of Dr. Lerner's patients. "I would not encourage her to hang in there and work this one out," Dr. Lerner said. A third type of bad friendship involves someone who insults the other person, Dr. Yager said. One of the 180 people who responded to Dr. Yager's most recent survey on friendship described how, when she was 11, her best friend called her "a derogatory name." The woman, now 32, was so devastated that she feels she has been unable to be fully open with people ever since, Dr. Yager said. Emotional abuse may be less noticeable than verbal abuse, but it is "more insidious," Dr. Yager said. "Some people constantly set up their friends," she explained. "They'll have a party, not invite the friend, but make sure he or she finds out." Risk takers, betrayers and abusers are the most extreme kinds of bad friends, Dr. Yager said, but they are not the only ones. She identifies 21 different varieties. Occupying the second tier of badness are the liar, the person who is overly dependent, the friend who never listens, the person who meddles too much in a friend's life, the competitor and the loner, who prefers not to spend time with friends. Most common is the promise breaker. "This includes everyone from the person who says let's have a cup of coffee but something always comes up at the last minute to someone who promises to be there for you when you need them, but then isn't," Dr. Yager said. Some friendships go bad, as some romantic relationships do, when one of the people gradually or suddenly finds reasons to dislike the other one. "With couples, it can take 18 to 24 months for someone to discover there's something important they don't like about the other person," said Dr. Rose of Florida International. "One might find, for example, that in subtle ways the other person is a racist. In friendships, which are less intense, it may take even more time for one person to meet the other's dislike criteria." Whether a friendship is worth saving, Dr. Lerner said, "depends on how large the injury is." "Sometimes the mature thing is to lighten up and let something go," she added. "It's also an act of maturity sometimes to accept another person's limitations." Acceptance should come easier among friends than among spouses, Dr. Lerner said, because people have more than one friend and do not need a full range of emotional support from each one. But if the friendship has deteriorated to the point where one friend truly dislikes the other one or finds that the friendship is causing undue stress, the healthy response is to pull away, Dr. Yager said, to stop sharing the personal or intimate details of life, and start being too busy to get together, ever. "It takes two people to start and maintain a friendship, but only one to end it," Dr. Yager said. Friendship, because it is voluntary and unregulated, is far easier to dissolve than marriage. But it is also comparatively fragile, experts say. Ideally, the loss of a bad friendship should leave a person with more time and appreciation for good ones, Dr. Lerner said. "It is wise to pay attention to your friendships and have them in order while you're healthy and your life and work are going well," she said. "Because when a crisis hits, when someone you love dies, or you lose your job and your health insurance, when the universe gives you a crash course in vulnerability, you will discover how crucial and life-preserving good friendship is." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/10/health/psychology/10FRIE.html?ex=1032684795&ei=1&en=2a88a6d1b985c977 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

More on promiscuity and word choice Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Robert Harley writes: > >OK, then. Consider a population of 1,000,000. 500,000 men each > >pair off with 500,000 women. Then, 1 man, let's call him "Wilt", > >also has sex with the other 499,999 women > > This has never happened. Its relevance is nil. It was a extreme contrived example because you glosded over the point of the earlier 3-person example. But OK, Mr Math, let it be N men and women, for any N>2. They all pair off. Then, some number H, N>H>0, of men has sex with all the other N-1 women he hasn't yet had sex with. Pick any N and H that might be interesting. Any choice of values results in meaningful differences between the sexes' "promiscuity", as commonly understood. It should be more obvious with extreme choices of numbers, but it is also true for any choice of N and H, if unrealistic totals distract you. Further, and I was hoping this would be clear without saying so outright, this model actually approximates the cliche "common wisdom" about per-gender sexual behavior, if you reverse the male and female roles. Those stereotypes are: that more men than women seek multiple partners -- men being "more promiscuous" than women -- and that surplus of male interest is satisfied by a smaller number of hyperpromiscuous women (often derisively labelled "sluts"). > So I chose not to type "on average" explicitly in my post, since this > is FoRK and one tends to assume that people have a clue. > > There is no disagreement between us, except that I am more interested > in typical behaviour and you in extreme. Nope, now you've amended the meaning of your initial statement to make it more defensible. What I objected to was: Robert Harley: # >The assumption that females of all species tend to be less promiscuous # >than males simply does not fit the facts, Hrdy contended. # # Well, DUH!!! # # It is perfectly obvious that (heterosexual) promiscuity is exactly, # precisely identical between males and females. # # Of course the shapes of the distributions may differ. If you assumed people on FoRK had a clue, would you have needed to jump in with a patronizing "DUH!!"? If you were talking about fuzzy, typical behavior, would you have huffed and puffed with the words "perfectly obvious" and "exactly, precisely identical"? If your concern was with the "typical", why didn't you adopt the typical definition of "promiscuous", rather than a straw-man definition which allowed you to interject "DUH!!" and mock an anthrolopology professor's conclusions? > Actually, you probably just > had a bad day and felt like jumping down my throat for the hell of it. You are welcome to that theory! But here's an alternate theory: when you jump in with a patronizing and overblown pronouncement -- e.g. "DUH!!... perfectly obvious... exactly, precisely identical..." -- and that pronouncement is itself sloppy and erroneous, then others may get a kick out of popping your balloon. - Gordon

RE: Recommended Viewing dreams-are-like-radio analogy: i program my Jetta Monsoon for Planet 93.3, 80's 102.9, and NPR 89.9 but when i leave my local broadcast range i have to scan for new stations. dreaming is outside my local broadcast range. -----Original Message----- From: garym@maya.dyndns.org [mailto:garym@maya.dyndns.org]On Behalf Of Gary Lawrence Murphy Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:14 AM To: Geege Schuman Cc: johnhall@evergo.net; FoRK Subject: Re: Recommended Viewing >>>>> "G" == Geege Schuman <geege@barrera.org> writes: G> you meant "SURPRISINGLY perceptive," didn't you? :-) Of course, dear. Especially without zazen training. Veritably Operational Thetan-like. G> recent exceptionally vivid and strange dreams lead me to G> believe i'm sparking synapses that have lain dormant lo these G> many years. Lots of problem solving going on up there at G> night. It's a myth that we don't use parts of our brain. We use it all, always. It's just that our culturally-induced focal-point causes most of us to most of the time ignore and waste 99.999% of it. "Lucid" is a measure of notch-filter bandwidth; all stations are broadcasting, but we only /choose/ Easy Rock 105. For example, don't look now but your shoes are full of feet. The sensation of toes the above statement evokes is not a "turning on" of circuits, it is a "tuning in". The next step, of course, is to "drop out" :) To paraphrase an old saw: Life is wasted on the living. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Microsoft Buys XDegrees - Secure Access Company == http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/10862_1460701 Microsoft Tuesday said it has purchased a Mountain View, Calif.-based security company to better secure its core file services including its Windows platform and .NET initiative. The Redmond, Wash-based software giant has acquired the assets of XDegrees for an undisclosed amount of cash and is in the process of relocating the team of 12 or 14 engineers to the Microsoft campus. XDegrees' technology assigns URLs to Word files, video clips, and other digital documents for access across a peer-to-peer network XDegrees founder Michael Tanne was offered a job, but decided instead to play his hand in the Silicon Valley. ========== "XDegrees' technology assigns URLs to Word files, video clips, and other digital documents for access across a peer-to-peer network" - assigns URLs to Word files... and somebody /bought/ that? === http://www.xdegrees.com/pr_2001-11-12_1.html "The XDegrees System allows users to easily and consistently locate, access and manage information by assigning each document a unique link. Providing end-to-end security, the XDegrees System unifies authentication of all users, provides file-level access control and encrypts all stored and transferred files. Seamless integration with existing applications such as email clients and Microsoft Office products allows companies to rapidly deploy the XDegrees System and users to get up-and-running quickly." Whoa... high tech... === More bits here... http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2001/04/27/xdegrees.html "The essence of XDegrees consists of a naming system and a distributed database that allows peers to resolve resource names. XDegrees manages these services for customers on its own hosts, and sells its software to enterprises so they can define and run their own namespaces on in-house servers. You can search for a particular person (whatever device the person is currently using), for a particular device, for a file, or even for a web service. The software that resolves resource names is called XRNS (the eXtensible Resource Name System)."

Microsoft buys XDegress - more of a p2p/distributed data thing... I like this part - sounds like httpd on the client... http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2001/04/27/xdegrees.html "Once the Client Component is installed, a server can order a program to run on the client. Any CGI script, Java servlet, ASP component, etc. could be run on the client. This is like breaking the Web server into two parts. Originally, Web servers just understood HTTP and sent pages. Then the field started demanding more from the Web and the servers got loaded down with CGI and mod_perl and active pages and stuff. So now the Web server can choose to go back to simple serving and (where the application is appropriate) let the client do the other razzamatazz. This is superior to JavaScript in one important detail: the program doesn't have to reload when a new page is loaded, as JavaScript functions do. And because XDegrees uses Web-compatible technology, users can access XDegrees resources without installing any software, simply by using their browser." === "Scaling is the main question that comes to mind when somebody describes a new naming and searching system. CEO Michael Tanne claims to have figured out mathematically that the system can scale up to millions of users and billions of resources. Scaling is facilitated by the careful location of servers (XDegrees will colocate servers at key routing points, as Akamai does), and by directing clients to the nearest server as their default "home" server. Enterprise customers can use own servers to manage in-house applications." "Files can be cached on multiple systems randomly scattered around the Internet, as with Napster or Freenet. In fact, the caching in XDegrees is more sophisticated than it is on those systems: users with high bandwidth connections can download portions, or "stripes," of a file from several cached locations simultaneously. The XDegrees software then reassembles these stripes into the whole file and uses digital signatures to verify that the downloaded file is the same as the original. A key component of this digital signature is a digest of the file, which is stored as an HTTP header for the file."

Re: Microsoft buys XDegress - more of a p2p/distributed data thing... Mr. FoRK writes: > "Files can be cached on multiple systems randomly scattered around the > Internet, as with Napster or Freenet. In fact, the caching in XDegrees is > more sophisticated than it is on those systems: users with high bandwidth > connections can download portions, or "stripes," of a file from several > cached locations simultaneously. The XDegrees software then reassembles > these stripes into the whole file and uses digital signatures to verify that > the downloaded file is the same as the original. A key component of this > digital signature is a digest of the file, which is stored as an HTTP header > for the file." This "more sophisticated than [Napster or Freenet]" part seems to be the same behavior implemented in many other P2P CDNs, such as: - Kazaa - EDonkey/Overnet - BitTorrent - Gnutella (with HUGE extensions) - OnionNetworks WebRAID ...though the quality of the "digest" used by each system varies wildly. - Gordon

storage bits At 12:32 PM 12/28/00 -0600, Adam Rifkin wrote: >I repeat, IBM 76.8Gb ultra dma/100 hard drive at Fry's for $375... >"home of fast, friendly courteous service! (R)" > >I kid you not. That's a half a cent a Megabyte for storage. >Not El Cheapo storage but top of the line storage. less than two years later, we have 320 GB for the same price: http://www.shareholder.com/maxtor/news/20020909-89588.cfm Maxtor Driving Capacity-Centric Enterprise Apps With "Super-Sized" ATA Drives Maxtor Continues its Leadership in the Market it Pioneered with a New Category of High-Density ATA Drives MILPITAS, Calif., September 9, 2002- Maxtor Corporation (NYSE: MXO), a worldwide leader in hard disk drives and data storage solutions, today announced Maxtor MaXLineTM, its newest generation of ATA drives designed specifically for rapidly emerging enterprise storage applications including near-line, media storage and network storage. The MaXLine family features two critical differentiators: huge capacities up to 320 GB for corporate archiving and media recording; and unique manufacturing and quality for 24/7 operations with mean time to failure (MTTF) rates exceeding one million hours. The MaXLine family is designed to bring hard disk drives into "near-line" archive applications. By adding a layer of MaXLine drives to archive architectures, companies can instantly recover time-critical data including executive e-mail, transaction data and accounting data that may need to be recovered on demand. These new drives are designed to solve another enterprise problem with the storage of video, media and audio conference call files. Even compressed, these files take up tremendous amounts of high-cost server space. Priced starting around $299.95 to $399.95 MSRP, Maxtor's MaXLine family offers high capacity drives for enterprise applications at price points between traditional ATA and SCSI drives. For system OEMs and white box builders, MaXLine offers high-density, easy-to-integrate storage for use in entry-level and mid-size server environments. "The demand for instant recall of archived data is expanding as companies are meeting their obligations to quickly access executive e-mails, financial documents and transaction records," said Mike Dooley, senior director of marketing for the Desktop Products Group at Maxtor. "Users may not need to access information in these applications on a daily basis, but when they do need access, it must be instant. Recent advances in ATA technology and our manufacturing processes allow us to build upon our legacy of experience and provide our customers with a family of premium ATA hard drives that can be integrated into a variety of systems for these enterprise applications." The MaXLine family includes the 5400-RPM MaXLine II, designed for capacities up to 320 GB and the 7200-RPM MaXLine Plus II, designed for capacities up to 250 GB. At these capacities, MaXLine offers higher storage density than many tape and optical solutions. These drives have also been tested and are projected to meet enterprise reliability requirements, already exceeded by prior drives employing the same robust Maxtor designs, which exceed MTTF of over one million hours. These drives will also carry a three-year warranty. The MaXLine II and MaXLine Plus II feature the Maxtor Fast DriveTM UltraATA/133 interface for data transfer speeds up to 133 MB per second. The MaXLine II and MaXLine Plus II will be available with next-generation serial ATA interface for higher performance. At 150 MB per second maximum data transfer rate, serial ATA improves hard drive performance to keep pace with the rapidly increasing performance requirements of data intensive environments and enterprise applications. With a point-to-point connection architecture, and rich command set for managing hard drive activity and data flow along the interface, serial ATA advances the performance and efficiency of the drive to system interface. The interface's reduced pin count allows for simpler cabling which in turn allows better airflow within a system and further benefits the user with increased design flexibility and hot plug capability. "Maxtor's MaXLine family of drives provide a solution for storing data that has previously been too expensive to keep on disk," said Dave Reinsel, analyst at IDC. "The ATA drives offer a great value, low cost per GB and when integrated into storage systems and file servers offer a compelling cost-effective alternative to tape libraries and optical drives, which have been the traditional solutions used for near-line applications." Availability Limited qualification units of the parallel ATA versions of Maxtor MaXLine II and MaXLine Plus II are now available; with volume units available in the fourth quarter. Qualification units of the MaXLine II and MaXLine Plus II with serial ATA will be available later this month with volume shipments scheduled to begin in the first quarter of 2003. About Maxtor Maxtor Corporation (www.maxtor.com) is one of the world's leading suppliers of information storage solutions. The company has an expansive line of storage products for desktop computers, storage systems, high-performance servers and consumer electronics. Maxtor has a reputation as a proven market leader built by consistently providing high-quality products and service and support for its customers. Maxtor and its products can be found at www.maxtor.com or by calling toll-free (800) 2-MAXTOR. Maxtor is traded on the NYSE under the MXO symbol. Note: Maxtor, MaXLine and the Maxtor logo are registered trademarks of Maxtor Corporation. Fast Drive is a trademark of Maxtor Corporation. All other trademarks are properties of their respective owners. GB means 1 billion bytes. Total accessible capacity varies depending on operating environment. This announcement relating to Maxtor may contain forward-looking statements concerning future technology, products incorporating that technology, and Maxtor's execution. These statements are based on current expectations and are subject to risks and uncertainties which could materially affect the company's results, including, but not limited to, market demand for hard disk drives, the company's ability to execute future production ramps and utilize manufacturing assets efficiently, pricing, competition, and the significant uncertainty of market acceptance of new products. These and other risk factors are contained in documents that the company files with the SEC, including the Form 10-K for fiscal 2001 and its recent 10-Qs. Copyright � 2001, Maxtor Corporation �. Privacy Policy. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))

Re: storage bits >>>>> "U" == Udhay Shankar N <Udhay> writes: U> At 12:32 PM 12/28/00 -0600, Adam Rifkin wrote: >> I repeat, IBM 76.8Gb ultra dma/100 hard drive at Fry's for >> $375... "home of fast, friendly courteous service! (R)" U> less than two years later, we have 320 GB for the same price: So then why does my webhost _still_ only give me 200MB? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@teledyn.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Advantage through Community Software : http://www.teledyn.com "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)

Re: Snow September Haiku Freezing my ass off Air conditioning on high heats small apartment. Cindy, in Mississippie P.S. this one's for you, geege. On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Paul Chvostek wrote: > > I can tell I'm not the only one without air conditioning. ;-) > > Maybe I'll move to Canmore. <sigh> > > p > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 03:37:08PM -0400, Swerve wrote: > > > > moo hahahaha. > > > > i need a smoke. > > > > stop this heatwave. > > > > bring on winter. > > > > bring on fall. > > > > > > Swerve, shut up. > > > > bye. > > -- "I don't take no stocks in mathematics, anyway" --Huckleberry Finn

RE: Microsoft buys XDegress - more of a p2p/distributed data thing... XDegrees was at the WebDAV Interoperability Testing Event last year, so there may be some DAV under the hood there someplace. - Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of > Gordon Mohr > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:00 AM > To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org > Subject: Re: Microsoft buys XDegress - more of a p2p/distributed data > thing... > > > Mr. FoRK writes: > > "Files can be cached on multiple systems randomly scattered around the > > Internet, as with Napster or Freenet. In fact, the caching in > XDegrees is > > more sophisticated than it is on those systems: users with high > bandwidth > > connections can download portions, or "stripes," of a file from several > > cached locations simultaneously. The XDegrees software then reassembles > > these stripes into the whole file and uses digital signatures > to verify that > > the downloaded file is the same as the original. A key component of this > > digital signature is a digest of the file, which is stored as > an HTTP header > > for the file." > > This "more sophisticated than [Napster or Freenet]" part seems > to be the same behavior implemented in many other P2P CDNs, > such as: > > - Kazaa > - EDonkey/Overnet > - BitTorrent > - Gnutella (with HUGE extensions) > - OnionNetworks WebRAID > > ...though the quality of the "digest" used by each system varies > wildly. > > - Gordon >

Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson091102.asp September 11, 2002 8:00 a.m. The Wages of September 11 There is no going back. September 11 changed our world. Those who deny such a watershed event take a superficially short-term view, and seem to think all is as before simply because the sun still rises and sets. This is a colossal misjudgment. The collapse of the towers, the crashing into the Pentagon, and the murder of 3,000 Americans � all seen live in real time by millions the world over � tore off a scab and exposed deep wounds, which, if and when they heal, will leave ugly scars for decades. The killers dealt in icons � the choice of 911 as the date of death, targeting the manifest symbols of global capitalism and American military power, and centering their destruction on the largest Jewish city in the world. Yes, they got their symbols in spades, but they have no idea that their killing has instead become emblematic of changes that they could scarcely imagine. Islamic fundamentalism has proved not ascendant, but static, morally repugnant � and the worst plague upon the Arab world since the Crusades. By lurking in the shadows and killing incrementally through stealth, the vampirish terrorists garnered bribes and subsidies through threats and bombs; but pale and wrinkled in the daylight after 9/11, they prove only ghoulish not fearsome. The more the world knows of al Qaeda and bin Laden, the more it has found them both vile and yet banal � and so is confident and eager to eradicate them and all they stand for. It is one thing to kill innocents, quite another to take on the armed might of an aroused United States. Easily dodging a solo cruise missile in the vastness of Afghanistan may make good theater and bring about braggadocio; dealing with grim American and British commandos who have come 7,000 miles for your head prompts abject flight and an occasional cheap infomercial on the run. And the ultimate consequence of the attacks of September 11 will not merely be the destruction of al Qaeda, but also the complete repudiation of the Taliban, the Iranian mullocracy, the plague of the Pakistani madrassas, and any other would-be fundamentalist paradise on earth. Foreign relations will not be the same in our generation. Our coalition with Europe, we learn, was not a partnership, but more mere alphabetic nomenclature and the mutual back scratching of Euro-American globetrotters � a paper alliance without a mission nearly 15 years after the end of the Cold War. The truth is that Europe, out of noble purposes, for a decade has insidiously eroded its collective national sovereignty in order to craft an antidemocratic EU, a 80,000-person fuzzy bureaucracy whose executive power is as militarily weak as it is morally ambiguous in its reliance on often dubious international accords. This sad realization September 11 brutally exposed, and we all should cry for the beloved continent that has for the moment completely lost its moral bearings. Indeed, as the months progressed the problems inherent in "the European way" became all too apparent: pretentious utopian manifestos in lieu of military resoluteness, abstract moralizing to excuse dereliction of concrete ethical responsibility, and constant American ankle-biting even as Europe lives in a make-believe Shire while we keep back the forces of Mordor from its picturesque borders, with only a few brave Frodos and Bilbos tagging along. Nothing has proved more sobering to Americans than the skepticism of these blinkered European hobbits after September 11. America learned that "moderate" Arab countries are as dangerous as hostile Islamic nations. After September 11, being a Saudi, Egyptian, or Kuwaiti means nothing special to an American � at least not proof of being any more friendly or hostile than having Libyan, Syrian, or Lebanese citizenship. Indeed, our entire postwar policy of propping up autocracies on the triad of their anticommunism, oil, and arms purchases � like NATO � belongs to a pre-9/11 age of Soviet aggrandizement and petroleum monopolies. Now we learn that broadcasting state-sponsored hatred of Israel and the United States is just as deadly to our interests as scud missiles � and as likely to come from friends as enemies. Worst-case scenarios like Iran and Afghanistan offer more long-term hope than "stable regimes" like the Saudis; governments that hate us have populations that like us � and vice versa; the Saudi royal family, whom 5,000 American troops protect, and the Mubarak autocracy, which has snagged billions of American dollars, are as afraid of democratic reformers as they are Islamic fundamentalists. And with good reason: Islamic governments in Iran and under the Taliban were as hated by the masses as Arab secular reformers in exile in the West are praised and championed. The post-9/11 domestic calculus is just as confusing. Generals and the military brass call civilians who seek the liberation of Iraq "chicken hawks" and worse. Yet such traditional Vietnam-era invective I think rings hollow after September 11, and sounds more like McClellan's shrillness against his civilian overseers who precipitously wanted an odious slavery ended than resonant of Patton's audacity in charging after murderous Nazis. More Americans were destroyed at work in a single day than all those soldiers killed in enemy action since the evacuation of Vietnam nearly 30 years ago. Indeed, most troops who went through the ghastly inferno of Vietnam are now in or nearing retirement; and, thank God, there is no generation of Americans in the present military � other than a few thousand brave veterans of the Gulf, Mogadishu, and Panama � who have been in sustained and deadly shooting with heavy casualties. Because American soldiers and their equipment are as impressive as our own domestic security is lax, in this gruesome war it may well be more perilous to work high up in lower Manhattan, fly regularly on a jumbo jet, or handle mail at the Pentagon or CIA than be at sea on a sub or destroyer. Real concern for the sanctity of life may hinge on employing rather than rejecting force, inasmuch as our troops are as deadly and protected abroad as our women, children, aged, and civilians are impotent and vulnerable at home. It seems to me a more moral gamble to send hundreds of pilots into harm's way than allow a madman to further his plots to blow up or infect thousands in high-rises. Politics have been turned upside down. In the old days, cynical conservatives were forced to hold their noses and to practice a sometimes repellent Realpolitik. In the age of Russian expansionism, they were loathe to champion democracy when it might usher in a socialist Trojan Horse whose belly harbored totalitarians disguised as parliamentarians. Thus they were so often at loggerheads with na�ve and idealist leftists. No longer. The end of the specter of a deadly and aggressive Soviet Communism has revived democratic ideology as a force in diplomacy. Champions of freedom no longer sigh and back opportunistic rightist thugs who promise open economics, loot their treasuries, and keep out the Russians. Instead, even reactionaries are now more likely to push for democratic governments in the Middle East than are dour and skeptical leftists. The latter, if multiculturalists, often believe that democracy is a value-neutral Western construct, not necessarily a universal good; if pacifists, they claim nonintervention, not justice, as their first priority. The Right, not the Left, now is the greater proponent of global freedom, liberation, and idealism � with obvious domestic ramifications for any Republican president astute enough to tap that rich vein of popular support. All this and more are the wages of the disaster of September 11 and the subsequent terrible year � and yet it is likely that, for good or evil, we will see things even more incredible in the twelve months ahead.

A Living Memorial -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Say 'amen' somebody. What the WSJ said, appended below. The WTC, as constructed, was a confiscatory government boondoggle, expropriated from the original pre-construction property owners at the behest of a third-generation trust-fund-aristocrat for the "good" of the city, and owned by an "authority" looking for something else to do after it, and its coach-hounds in organized labor and organized crime, had killed what was the largest port in the world's richest nation. Now, of course, it's about to get worse. The sins of 40 years ago have been compounded at the hands of two kinds of literally irrational fanatics, first those in religion, and now those in government. As a result, a large part of 10 million square feet of once perfectly usable office space, devoted, at least ostensibly, to commerce, will be "granted" away in a potlatch that only government, and special-interest "communities", (or "stakeholders", or whatever the cryptosocialist psycho-rabble call themselves this week) can organize to such perfection. All this in probably the *only* city in the country that was founded by a *business*, explicitly for the purpose of *commerce*. Not religious fanaticism. Not colonial expansion in a monarch's name. *Commerce*. If they *really* wanted to make a point to the superstitious luddites who collapsed those buildings (using probably the only sharp objects on a plane full of government-disarmed passengers) the so-called "authority" should disband itself and sell its property off to the highest bidder and let the *market* -- the cure to all luddism, foreign and domestic, government and superstitious -- decide. If the new, *private* owner wants to sell, or give away, a space for a memorial, fine. They could sell tickets and donate the money to the families of the dead and injured. Probably great for marketing the property, at least during the lifetime of anyone who remembers the event. And, of course, if the new owner wants to build something twice as tall, or with twice as much space than the original 10 million square feet, splendid. Whatever the market will bear. In these days of increasingly ubiquitous trans-national geodesic internetworks, of strong financial cryptography, and of exponentially decreasing transaction costs in formerly monolithic industries, economics and freedom can, and will, prevail over both superstition and statism. It's probably too much to hope for an actual market in lower Manhattan mega-real-estate to prevail this early in the game, but it's going to happen sooner or later. And, whenever it does, *that* will be a fitting memorial to those who died at the World Trade Center. Cheers, RAH - ------- http://online.wsj.com/article_print/0,,SB1031705210159756235,00.html The Wall Street Journal September 11, 2002 REVIEW & OUTLOOK A Living Memorial As we write these words, we can look down from our offices into the six-story crater where the Twin Towers once stood. Like everyone else, we want that site to be rebuilt in a way that honors those who died a year ago. But we also think the best memorial to those who perished would be a living one. The site of the World Trade Center calls forth many emotions, especially today: anger, grief and respect for the many acts of heroism that took place there. But underlying it all is the memory of the enormous vitality that distinguished the towers before they were attacked and was a large reason they were targeted. The best expression of the spirit of New York and of those who died would be to once again see thousands of people from dozens of countries working, meeting, shopping, eating -- that is, engaged in the sort of productive work and play that used to take place there. Osama bin Laden should not be allowed to have turned it into a cemetery. But restoring this memory is not what the discussion in New York has been about. So far no one is talking seriously about the vigorous rebuilding of downtown Manhattan, which lost 100,000 jobs when the Trade Center fell. Instead the discussion centers on the size and scale of the memorial, and on satisfying every political interest now clamoring for a piece of the action. New York's political leadership, and its financial and media elites, are squandering a historic chance to rebuild a better, more prosperous city. This is in part the fault of the commission tasked with figuring out what to do with the site. In consultation with New York Governor George Pataki, who is thinking primarily about his own November re-election, the commission made the decision to focus first on the memorial. The Manhattan Institute's Steve Malanga argues that the commission would have been better off setting aside a limited space for the memorial, getting on with the rebuilding and then returning to the memorial. This is in essence what the Pentagon has so successfully done -- rebuild immediately and set aside two acres for an outdoor memorial, a design for which has yet to be decided. A big part of the problem in New York is that the city's anti-development activists know an opening when they see one. They want the World Trade Center site -- and even some surrounding areas - -- transformed into an enormous park. These political advocates have had plenty of practice at turning proposed development projects in New York into a nightmare of delay and litigation, and the World Trade Center site is now getting the same treatment. Worse, they are cynically using some bereaved family members to advance their own anti-development agenda in the name of "honoring" the dead. One family group even called a press conference to reject as disrespectful a proposed train line under the site. We are not experts in designing war memorials, but we're confident that a gigantic park in the heart of the world's financial center isn't the appropriate choice for those who died a year ago. The great cities of Europe and Japan, devastated in World War II, have all rebuilt, and with memorials that are integrated into modern urban life. Perhaps the most powerful is found in Rotterdam, the Dutch port city reduced to rubble by German bombing, where survivors erected a statue of a man with a hole where his heart used to be. In this country, the practice has been for the names of war dead to be inscribed on the walls of institutions with which they were affiliated. If you walk into Nassau Hall at Princeton University, you'll find the names of 644 alumni who died in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korea and Southeast Asia. No one thinks it disrespectful to the dead that the life of the university goes on around the walls containing their names. In New York now, it would help if political leaders looked beyond the emotional tug of the victims and their families to the city's future. Rudolph Giuliani, now that he's out office, wants the entire 16 acres devoted to the memorial. Governor Pataki has called for no structures on the "footprints," which, being in the center of the site, would severely curtail options. Mayor Michael Bloomberg initially raised his voice in favor of commercial development but was bloodied by the press and has since ducked for cover. Maybe things will be different after this anniversary is past. Maybe those responsible for the World Trade Center site will start thinking more about the next 50 or 100 years than the past 12 months. The best way to honor the dead is by reviving normal life and commerce. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPX9zD8PxH8jf3ohaEQI2aACgv7mtb5VKTpRj5MJQt1OyzyifzusAn273 fgNkOntna6+SmLO8TB4XYbC2 =09az -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Keillor voices up on what to do with the WTC site http://www.phc.mpr.org/posthost/index.shtml Dear Garrison, There are at least six plans about what to do with "Ground Zero" in New York. I believe a suitable memorial surrounded by a lovely park with benches, walkways, children's playgrounds, possibly some concessions such as a restaurant, small theater and a place for art works would be the best tribute to those who lost their lives. What do you think should done with the space? Joe Adams Hillsdale, New Jersey I dread the thought of a big memorial in Manhattan that's designed by committee and that's gone through public hearings and so forth ----- it's going to be cold and ugly and pretentious and the upshot will be one more public space that the public hates, of which there are plenty already. New York is a bustling commercial city and that's the beauty of it, it's a city of young ambitious dreamy people, like the folks who died in the towers, and it's not a memorializing city. Historic events occurred in New York that in any other city would be commemorated with interpretive centers and guides and historical museums and in New York there's barely a little plaque. That's a great thing, in my estimation. It's a hustling city, full of immigrants looking for their big chance, and compared to that spirit of entrepreneurship, a memorial plaza with a fountain and a statue of something seems dead to me. Look at Grant's Tomb. Who walks past it and thinks about President Grant? Nobody. People sit in the plaza by Grant's Tomb and think about lunch, about sex, about money, about all the things that New York is about. If you want to find Grant, read his memoirs. His monument seems odd in New York: it belongs in Washington, which is our memorial city. New York is for the young and lively.

Re: storage bits On 11 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > So then why does my webhost _still_ only give me 200MB? Because ~10 krpm server SCSII doesn't follow the curve. Most rackspace is ridiculously expensive/unit, so people don't use low end EIDE hardware there.

RE: Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review Hanson is always good. One of my sci-fi authors is planning on slipping the following line into one of their stories: "The worst strategic mistake since the 911 attacks". > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Stoddard > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:37 AM > To: Fork@Xent.Com > Subject: Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review > > > http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson091102.asp

From salon.com - Forbidden thoughts about 9/11 i though this was all rather interesting, first bit of 9/11 coverage that i've liked. http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/index.html Chris

TheThresher Is this old bits? It should be. I was browsing the local zine store here in Portland OR and found the second issue of The Thresher...very very sweet. Poltical socio articles on all manner of things from names you have come to love/despise over the years. If you have not already, tombobjoewhore says check it out. www.thethresher.com

Since we were on the subject... Gays, gay sex, gay marriage.....wooohooo its been a mano e mano week and thursady will be the mass market consumer period on it. The WWE's gay marriage cermemony is in the can, that is its been filmed last night for thursady nights Smackdown. Did they do it tastefully? Oh come on its the WWE for cripssake, of course they didnt. Did they use it ot promote an story line? Despite the WWE throwing away more good story lines in the last 2 years than a wood chuck who could chuck wood if the enviromentalists did not slap lawsuits on them, the sotrywrites seemed to have finaly hit on a big tie togther event for several story lines. But of course, no one here watches the WWE, and not even because you would rather watch old Divxs of the ECW, so this little bit is probably fallign on the old killsawfiles. SO I wont be bursting anyones thursdaynight plans if I smarkout and say that B and C waver near the final vows, the blame is falling on Ricco, thier "manager"*, for pushing them to carry out their "gay" act far too long and just when things look to be heating up with that story arc......the mask comes off the justice of the piece as he pronounces that they have gone 3 minutes, yes 3 minutes, too long.....Yep, its the Bisch and in come Rosey and Jamal to attempt a stomping on Stpehnie McMahon. Hopefully they did not get off a kick like they did on the first lesbain back on Mondays raw as that broke a rib. Of course the editing truck boys might change some none or all of this around, so if thursday nights tape play reveals them hitch and on thier way to a honeymoon, thats the luck o the smarkies. I doubt it will be edited much though from the way I heard it. So the bottomline is, they really were not gay all along, they were play acting and it got out of hand because Ricco made them, Steaphnie gets a face push while the Bisch gets a thursady night special 3 min heel push, thus furthing the story arc of the brand split. Rosey and Jamala get heat and B and C get a new Tag Team to play with. Ricco..who knows, maybe some heat time would be good for him as a single. All this of course at a time when the ratting are in the bottom of a 4 year valley of gloom, the last 2 years have been mostly squandered on borken story arc promises and bad acting, and to top it all off Mick is no longer ont he sceen so...bang bang...how can it be all good? Well, its back to my growing ECW divx collection where Tajiri was the shiz and Mick cut promos unrivaled by any of todays mic monkeys. * Todays managers are a far cry form the managers of the 80's/early 90's. Ricco is nota Paul Bearer or a Jimmy Heart at all but more like a buddy who goes to the ring with them and occasional interferes..ugh.

Bush blew take two http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63543-2002Sep10.html "MIAMI, Sept. 10 -- A two-gram rock of crack cocaine was found inside the shoe of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's 25-year-old daughter by workers at the central Florida rehabilitation center where she is undergoing court-ordered drug treatment, Orlando police said today. Noelle Bush was not arrested because witnesses would not give sworn statements, but the incident is under investigation, according to Orlando police spokesman Orlando Rolon." Wow, the witnesses would not nark of a Bush girl in an era where there are no mare restrictions on being held without a cause? Imagine that... -tom

RE: Bush blew take two yeshterday we f*cked up our gubernatorial election, too. results to be contested by reno. same six districts that were sued in 2000 still came up gimpy. i suggested to jeb via e-mail we hold a run-off pinata party. hoist up a papier mache donkey and a papier mache elephant. first one to batted open wins. -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:16 PM To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org Subject: Bush blew take two http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63543-2002Sep10.html "MIAMI, Sept. 10 -- A two-gram rock of crack cocaine was found inside the shoe of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's 25-year-old daughter by workers at the central Florida rehabilitation center where she is undergoing court-ordered drug treatment, Orlando police said today. Noelle Bush was not arrested because witnesses would not give sworn statements, but the incident is under investigation, according to Orlando police spokesman Orlando Rolon." Wow, the witnesses would not nark of a Bush girl in an era where there are no mare restrictions on being held without a cause? Imagine that... -tom

FW: Bush blew take two meant "gubernatorial PRIMARY." -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of Geege Schuman Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:32 PM To: Tom; fork@spamassassin.taint.org Subject: RE: Bush blew take two yeshterday we f*cked up our gubernatorial election, too. results to be contested by reno. same six districts that were sued in 2000 still came up gimpy. i suggested to jeb via e-mail we hold a run-off pinata party. hoist up a papier mache donkey and a papier mache elephant. first one to batted open wins. -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:16 PM To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org Subject: Bush blew take two http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63543-2002Sep10.html "MIAMI, Sept. 10 -- A two-gram rock of crack cocaine was found inside the shoe of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's 25-year-old daughter by workers at the central Florida rehabilitation center where she is undergoing court-ordered drug treatment, Orlando police said today. Noelle Bush was not arrested because witnesses would not give sworn statements, but the incident is under investigation, according to Orlando police spokesman Orlando Rolon." Wow, the witnesses would not nark of a Bush girl in an era where there are no mare restrictions on being held without a cause? Imagine that... -tom

Something for the person who has everything Interesting ebay item......(and no it wasnt me even though the spellingis oddly familar) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=1764085998

CBS News' interview w/Bush & reconstruction of his peregrinations "60 Minutes II" Bush Interview: (CBS)�No president since Abraham Lincoln has seen such horrific loss of life in a war on American soil. No president since James Madison, nearly 200 years ago, has seen the nation�s capital city successfully attacked. But, one year ago, President George W. Bush was thrown into the first great crisis of the 21st century. This is the president�s story of September 11th and the week America went to war. 60 Minutes II spent two hours with Mr. Bush, one, on Air Force One and another in the Oval Office last week. Even after a year, the president is still moved, sometimes to the point of tears, when he remembers Sept. 11. �I knew, the farther we get away from Sept.11, the more likely it is for some around the world to forget the mission, but not me,� Mr. Bush says during the Air Force One interview. �Not me. I made the pledge to myself and to people that I�m not going to forget what happened on Sept. 11. So long as I�m president, we will pursue the killers and bring them to justice. We owe that to those who have lost their lives.� The memories come back sharp and clear on Air Force One, where Pelley joined the president for a recent trip across country. 60 Minutes II wanted to talk to him there because that is where he spent the first hours after the attack. Not since Lyndon Johnson was sworn in on Air Force One has the airplane been so central to America in a crisis. For President Bush, Sept. 11 2001, started with the usual routine. Before dawn, the president was on his four-mile run. It was just before 6 a.m. and, at the same moment, another man was on the move: Mohammad Atta. Two hours later, as Mr. Bush drove to an elementary school, hijackers on four planes were murdering the flight crews and turning the airliners east. As the motorcade neared the school at 8:45 a.m., jet engines echoed in Manhattan. Atta plunged the 767 jumbo jet into World Trade Center Tower One. �I thought it was an accident,� says Mr. Bush. �I thought it was a pilot error. I thought that some foolish soul had gotten lost and - and made a terrible mistake.� Mr. Bush was told about the first plane just before sitting down with a class of second graders. He was watching a reading drill when, just after nine, United Flight 175 exploded into the second tower. There was the sudden realization that what had seemed like a terrible mistake was a coordinated attack. Back in the Florida classroom, press secretary Ari Fleischer got the news on his pager. The president�s chief-of-staff, Andy Card stepped in. �A second plane hit the second tower; America is under attack,� Card told the president When he said those words, what did he see in the President�s face? �I saw him coming to recognition of what I had said,� Card recalls. �I think he understood that he was going to have to take command as commander-in-chief, not just as president.� What was going through Bush�s mind when he heard the news? �We�re at war and somebody has dared attack us and we�re going to do something about it,� Mr. Bush recalls. �I realized I was in a unique setting to receive a message that somebody attacked us, and I was looking at these little children and all of the sudden we were at war. I can remember noticing the press pool and the press corps beginning to get the calls and seeing the look on their face. And it became evident that we were, you know, that the world had changed.� Mr. Bush walked into a classroom set up with a secure phone. He called the vice president, pulling the phone cord tight as he spun to see the attack on TV. Then he grabbed a legal pad and quickly wrote his first words to the nation. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is a difficult moment for America,� he said in the speech. �Today, we�ve had a national tragedy.� It was 9:30 a.m. As he spoke, Mr. Bush didn�t know that two more hijacked jets were streaking toward Washington. Vice Pesident Dick Cheney was in his office at the White House when a Secret Service agent ran in. �He said to me, �Sir, we have to leave immediately� and grabbed, put a hand on my belt, another hand on my shoulder and propelled me out the door of my office,� Cheney recalls. �I�m not sure how they do it, but they sort of levitate you down the hallway, you move very fast.� �There wasn�t a lot of time for chitchat, you know, with the vice president,� says Secret Service Director Brian Stafford, who was in his command center ordering the round-up of top officials and the First Family. He felt that he had only minutes to work with. �We knew there were unidentified planes tracking in our direction,� he says. Cheney was rushed deep under the White House into a bunker called the Presidential Emergency Operations Center. It was built for war, and this was it. On her way down, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice called Mr. Bush. �It was brief because I was being pushed to get off the phone and get out of the West Wing,� says Rice. �They were hurrying me off the phone with the president and I just said, he said, �I�m coming back� and we said �Mr. President that may not be wise.� I remember stopping briefly to call my family, my aunt and uncle in Alabama and say, �I�m fine. You have to tell everybody that I�m fine� but then settling into trying to deal with the enormity of that moment, and in the first few hours, I think the thing that was on everybody�s mind was how many more planes are coming.� The Capitol was evacuated. And for the first time ever, the Secret Service executed the emergency plan to ensure the presidential line of succession. Agents swept up the 15 officials who stood to become president if the others were killed. They wanted to move Vice President Cheney, fearing he was in danger even in the bunker. But Cheney says when he heard the other officials were safe, he decided to stay at the White House, no matter what. �It�s important to emphasize it's not personal, you don�t think of it in personal terms, you�ve got a professional job to do,� says Cheney. Cheney was joined by transportation secretary Norm Mineta who remembers hearing the FAA counting down the hijacked jets closing in on the capital. Says Mineta: �Someone came in and said �Mr. Vice president there�s a plane 50 miles out,� then he came in and said �Its now 10 miles out, we don�t know where it is exactly, but it�s coming in low and fast.�� It was American Flight 77. At 9:38 a.m., it exploded into the Pentagon, the first successful attack on Washington since the War of 1812. As the Pentagon burned, Mr. Bush�s limousine sped toward Air Force One in Florida. At that moment, United Flight 93 - the last hijacked plane - was taking dead aim at Washington. At the White House, the staff was in the West Wing cafeteria, watching on TV. Press Secretary Jennifer Millerwise was in the crowd when the order came to evacuate. �I no sooner walked outside when someone from the Secret Service yelled �Women drop your heels and run, drop your heels and run,� and suddenly the gates that never open except for authorized vehicles just opened and the whole White House just flooded out,� she recalls. In Florida, as Mr. Bush boarded Air Force One, he was overheard telling a Secret Service agent �Be sure to get the First Lady and my daughters protected.� At 9:57 a.m., Air Force One thundered down the runway, blasting smoke and dust in a full -hrust take off. Communications Director Dan Bartlett was on board. �It was like a rocket,� he remembers. �For a good ten minutes, the plane was going almost straight up.� At the same moment, 56 minutes after it was hit, World Trade Center Tower Two began to falter, then cascade in an incomprehensible avalanche of steel, concrete and human lives. �Someone said to me, �Look at that� I remember that, �Look at that� and I looked up and I saw and I just remember a cloud of dust and smoke and the horror of that moment,� recalls Rice of the TV newscast. She also felt something in her gut: �That we�ve lost a lot of Americans and that eventually we would get these people. I felt the anger. Of course I felt the anger.� Down in the bunker, Cheney was trying to figure out how many hijacked planes there were. Officials feared there could be as many as 11. As the planes track toward Washington, a discussion begins about whether to shoot them down. �I discussed it with the president,� Cheney recalls. ��Are we prepared to order our aircraft to shoot down these airliners that have been hijacked?� He said yes.� �It was my advice. It was his decision,� says Cheney. �That�s a sobering moment to order your own combat aircraft to shoot down your own civilian aircraft,� says Bush. �But it was an easy decision to make given the � given the fact that we had learned that a commercial aircraft was being used as a weapon. I say easy decision, it was, I didn�t hesitate, let me put it that way. I knew what had to be done.� The passengers on United Flight 93 also knew what had to be done. They fought for control and sacrificed themselves in a Pennsylvania meadow. The flight was 15 minutes from Washington. �Clearly, the terrorists were trying to take out as many symbols of government as they could: the Pentagon, perhaps the Capitol, perhaps the White House. These people saved us not only physically but they saved us psychologically and symbolically in a very important way, too,� says Rice. Meanwhile, Tower One was weakening. It had stood for an hour and 43 minutes. At 10:29 a.m., it buckled in a mirror image of the collapse of its twin. The image that went round the world reached the First Lady in a secure location somewhere in Washington. �I was horrified,� she says. �I thought, �Dear God, protect as many citizens as you can.� It was a nightmare.� By 10:30 a.m., America�s largest city was devastated, its military headquarters were burning. Air force One turned west along the Gulf Coast. �I can remember sitting right here in this office thinking about the consequences of what had taken place and realizing it was the defining moment in the history of the United States,� says President Bush. �I didn�t need any legal briefs, I didn�t need any consultations, I knew we were at war.� Mr. Bush says the first hours were frustrating. He watched the horrifying pictures, but the TV signal was breaking up. His calls to Cheney were cutting out. Mr. Bush says he pounded his desk shouting, �This is inexcusable; get me the vice president.� �I was trying to clear the fog of war, and there is a fog of war, says the president. "Information was just flying from all directions.� Chief of staff Card brought in the reports. There was word Camp David had been hit. A jet was thought to be targeting Mr. Bush�s ranch. �I remember hearing that the State Department might have been hit, or that the White House had a fire in it. So we were hearing lots of different information,� says Card. They also feared that Air Force One itself was a target. Cheney told the president there was a credible threat against the plane. Using the code name for Air Force One, Mr. Bush told an aide, �Angel is next.� The threat was passed to presidential pilot Colonel Mark Tillman. �It was serious before that but now it is -no longer is it a time to get the president home,� Tillman says. �We actually have to consider everything we say, everything we do could be intercepted, and we have to make sure that no one knows what our position is.� Tillman asked for an armed guard at his cockpit door while Secret Service agents double-checked the identity of everyone on board. The crew reviewed the emergency evacuation plan. Then came a warning from air traffic control � a suspect airliner was dead ahead. �Coming out of Sarasota there was one call that said there was an airliner off our nose that they did not have contact with,� Tillman remembers. Tillman took evasive action, pulling his plane high above normal traffic. They were on course for Washington, but by now no one thought that was a good idea, except the president. �I wanted to come back to Washington, but the circumstances were such that it was just impossible for the Secret Service or the national security team to clear the way for Air Force One to come back,� says Bush. So Air Force One set course for an underground command center in Nebraska. Back in Washington, the president�s closest advisor, Karen Hughes, heard about the threat to the plane and placed a call to Mr. Bush. �And the military operator came back to me and in a voice that, to me, sounded very shaken said, �Ma�am, I�m sorry, we can�t reach Air Force One.�� Hughes recalls. Hughes was out of the White House during the attacks. When she came back, it was a place she didn�t recognize. �There were either military, or maybe Secret Service, dressed all in black, holding machine guns as, as we drove up. And I never expected to see something like that in, in our nation's capital,� says Hughes. When she walked into the White House, no one was inside. �I knew it was a day that you didn't want to surprise anybody, and so I yelled, �Hello?� and two, again, kind of SWAT team members came running, running through the, the hall with, again, guns drawn, and then took me to, to the location where I met the vice president.� On Air Force One, Col. Tillman had a problem. He needed to hide the most visible plane in the world, a 747 longer than the White House itself. He didn�t want to use his radio, because the hijackers could be listening to air traffic control. So he called air traffic control on the telephone. �We actually didn't tell them our destination or what directions we were heading,� says Tillman. �We, we basically just talked to 'em and said, 'OK, fine, we have no clearance at this time, we are just going to fly across the United States.'� Controllers passed Air Force One from one sector to another, warning each other to keep the route secret. �OK, where�s he going?� one tower radioed to another. �Just watch him,� a second tower responded. �Don�t question him where�s he's going. Just work him and watch him, there�s no flight plan in and we�re not going to put anything in. Ok, sir?� Air Force One ordered a fighter escort, and air traffic control radioed back: �Air Force One, got two F-16s at about your 10 o�clock position.� �The staff, and the president and us, were filed out along the outside hallway of his presidential cabin there and looking out the windows,� says Bartlett. �And the president gives them a signal of salute, and the pilot kind of tips his wing, and fades off and backs into formation.� The men in the F-16s were Shane Brotherton and Randy Roberts, from the Texas Air National Guard. Their mission was so secret their commander wouldn�t tell them where they were going. �He just said, 'You�ll know when you see it,' and that was my first clue, I didn�t have any idea what we were going up until that point,� says Brotherton. He knew when he saw it. �We, we were trying to keep an 80-mile bubble, bubble around Air Force One, and we'd investigate anything that was within 80 miles,� says Roberts. Bush says he was not worried about the safety of the people on this aircraft, or for his own safety: �I looked out the airplane and saw two F-16s on each wing. It was going to have to be a pretty good pilot to get us.� We now know that the threat to Air Force One was part of the fog of war, a false alarm. But it had a powerful effect at the time. Some wondered, with the president out of sight, was he still running the government? He hadn�t appeared after the attack on Washington. Mr. Bush was clearly worried about it. At one point he was overheard saying, �The American people want to know where their dang president is.� The staff considered an address to the nation by phone but instead Mr. Bush ordered Air Force One to land somewhere within 30 minutes so he could appear on TV. At 11:45 a.m., they landed at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. �The resolve of our great nation is being tested. But make no mistake, we will show the world that we will pass this test. God bless,� Bush said to the nation from Barksdale. At Barksdale, the Secret Service believed the situation in Washington was still unsafe. So the plane continued on to Nebraska, to the command center where Mr. Bush would be secure and have all the communications gear he needed to run the government. Aboard Air Force One, Mr. Bush had a job for press secretary Fleischer. �The president asked me to make sure that I took down everything that was said. I think he wanted to make certain that a record existed,� says Fleischer Fleischer�s notes capture Mr. Bush�s language, plain and unguarded. To the vice president he said: �We�re at war, Dick, we�re going to find out who did this and kick their ass.� Another time, Mr. Bush said, �We�re not going to have any slap-on-the-wrist crap this time.� The President adds, �I can remember telling the Secretary of Defense, I said, �We�re going to find out who did this and then Mr. Secretary, you and Dick Myers,� who we just named as chairman of the joint chiefs, �are going to go get them.�� By 3 p.m., Air Force One touched down at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. Mr. Bush and his team were herded into a small brick hut that gave no hint of what they would find below. At the bottom of the stairs was the U.S. Strategic Command Underground Command Center. It was built to transmit a president�s order to go to nuclear war. But when Mr. Bush walked in, the battle staff was watching the skies over the United States. Many airplanes had still not landed. After a short briefing, Mr. Bush and Card were taken to a teleconference center which connected them to the White House, the Pentagon, the FBI and the CIA. Mr. Bush had a question for his CIA Director George Tenent. According to Rice, Bush asked Tenent who had done this. Rice recalls that Tenent answered: �Sir, I believe its al Qaeda. We�re doing the assessment but it looks like, it feels like, it smells like al Qaeda.� The evidence would build. FBI Director Robert Mueller says that an essential clue came from one of the hijacked planes before it crashed. A flight attendant on American Flight 11, Amy Sweeney, had the presence of mind to call her office as the plane was hijacked and give them the seat numbers of the hijackers. �That was the first piece of hard evidence. We could then go to the manifest, find out who was sitting in those seats and immediately conduct an investigation of those individuals, as opposed to taking all the passengers on the plane and going through a process of elimination,� says Mueller. In Nebraska, the White House staff was preparing for an address to the nation from the Air Force bunker, but by then the president had had enough. He decided to come back. �At one point, he said he didn�t want any tinhorn terrorist keeping him out of Washington,� Fleischer says. �That verbatim.� On board, he was already thinking of issuing an ultimatum to the world: �I had time to think and a couple of thoughts emerged. One was that you're guilty if you harbor a terrorist, because I knew these terrorists like al-Qaeda liked to prey on weak government and weak people. The other thought that came was the opportunity to fashion a vast coalition of countries that would either be with us or with the terrorists.� As Air Force One sped east, the last casualty of the attack on America collapsed, one of the nation�s worst days wore into evening. At the World Trade Center, 2,801 were killed; at the Pentagon, 184; and in Pennsylvania 40. Altogether, there were 3,025 dead. �Anybody who would attack America the way they did, anybody who would take innocent life the way they did, anybody who's so devious, is evil,� Bush said recently. Mr. Bush would soon see that evil face to face. After arriving in Washington, he boarded his helicopter and flew past the Pentagon on the way to the White House. Was there a time when he was afraid that there might not be a White House to return to? �I don�t remember thinking about whether or not the White House would have been obliterated," he recalls. "I think I might have thought they took their best shot, and now it was time for us to take our best shot.� Mr. Bush arrived back at the White House nine hours after the attacks. His next step was an address to the nation. Karen Hughes and her staff were already working on the speech. �He decided that the primary tone he wanted to strike that night was reassurance,� remembers Hughes. �We had to show resolve, we had to reassure people, we had to let them know that we would be OK.� Just off the Oval Office, Mr. Bush added the words that would become known as the Bush Doctrine - no distinction between terrorists and those who harbor them. The staff wanted to add a declaration of war but Mr. Bush didn�t think the American people wanted to hear it that night and he was emphatic about that. He prepared to say it from the same desk where Franklin Roosevelt first heard the news of Pearl Harbor. Now Bush was commander in chief. Eighty million Americans were watching. �Today our fellow citizens, our way of life, our very freedom came under attack in a series of deliberate and deadly terrorist acts,� he said from the Oval Office that night. The Oval Office speech came at the end of the bloodiest day in American history since the Civil War. Before he walked to the White House residence for the night, Mr. Bush dictated these words for the White House daily log: �The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today. We think it's Osama bin Laden.� (CBS)�When Sept. 12 dawned, President Bush was demanding a war plan. No one in the White House or the Pentagon could be sure of what the president would do. In office for just eight months, he�d never been tested as commander-in-chief. �I never asked them what they thought,� President Bush said of the Pentagon brass, �because I didn�t really � because I knew what I was gonna do. I knew exactly what had to be done, Scott. And that was to set a strategy to seek justice. Find out who did it, hunt them down and bring them to justice.� In the cabinet room, the president made clear what was next: �The deliberate and deadly attacks which were carried out yesterday against our country were more than acts of terror, they were acts of war,� he said. To the war cabinet, al Qaeda was no surprise. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice says the administration had been at work on a plan to strike bin Laden�s organization well before Sept. 11. �The president said, �You know I�m tired of swatting at flies, I need a strategy to eliminate these guys,�� Rice recalls. In one of the worst intelligence failures ever, the CIA and FBI didn�t pick up clues that an attack in the United States was imminent. Without a sense of urgency, the White House strategy the president had asked for came too late. Chief of Staff Andrew Card recalls that the plan Mr. Bush had asked for was �literally headed to the president�s desk, I think, on the eleventh, tenth or eleventh, of September.� On Sept. 12, the war cabinet was debating the full range of options - who to hit and how to hit them. There were some at the Pentagon who worried in the early hours that Mr. Bush would order up an immediate cruise missile strike, of the kind that had not deterred bin Laden in the past. �Well, there�s a lot of nervous Nellies at the Pentagon, anyway,� Mr. Bush tells Pelley. �A lot of people like to chatter, you know, more than they should. But no, I appreciate that very much. Secretary of Defense (Donald) Rumsfeld early on discussed the idea of making sure we had what we called �boots on the ground.� That if you�re gonna go to war, then you�ve gotta go to war with all your assets.� The president says he wanted to �fight and win a guerilla war with conventional means.� It was an innovative but risky idea being proposed by CIA Director George Tenent. Tenent wanted to combine American technology and intelligence with the brute force of Afghan fighters hostile to the Taliban government. Secretary of State Colin Powell, noting that the CIA had already developed a long relationship with the Afghan resistance, called it an unconventional solution to an unconventional problem. �As I like to describe it to my friends,� Powell says, �we had on the ground a Fourth World army riding horses and living in tents with some CIA and special forces with them and we had a First World air force, the best in the world. How do you connect it all?� The president gave them 48 hours to figure it out. Meanwhile, Mr. Bush went to the battlefield himself. Just the day before, he had called the Pentagon the �mightiest building in the world.� Now one-fifth of it was in ruins. The wreckage of American Flight 77 was being examined by Navy investigators. And before Mr. Bush left, he made a point of speaking personally with the team recovering the remains of the first casualties of war on his watch. The next day, Sept. 13, there was another warning of attack that the public never heard about. Threats had been were coming in constantly but this one sounded credible: a large truck bomb headed to the White House. The Secret Service wanted the president back in the bunker. �He wasn�t real receptive to that, to that recommendation,� remembers Brian Stafford, director of the Secret Service. �And he ordered a hamburger and said he was going to stay in the White House that evening and that�s what he did.� The next day, would be one of the longest and the most difficult for the president. On Friday, Sept. 14, Mr. Bush started the day with a cabinet meeting, but he wept when he walked in and was surprised by applause. �He sat down, slightly overcome, for a moment but he recaptured it,� says Powell who remembers being worried that the president might have trouble getting through his speech at the national memorial service later that morning. �And I just scribbled a little note to him,� Powell recalls, �and I said, �Mr. President, I�ve learned over the years when you are going to give a very emotional speech, watch out for certain words that will cause you to start to tear up.� He looked at me and he smiled and then at the next break in the conversation he said, �The Secretary of State told me not to break down at the memorial service,� and that broke the tension and everybody started laughing and I felt embarrassed.� First Lady Laura Bush was involved in planning the memorial service and she says she wanted it to be both dignified and comforting. �I wanted the Psalms and everything to be read to be comforting, because I think we were a country, that needed, everyone of us, needed comforting.� It also stirred the mourners� resolve, as Rice remember. �As we stood to sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic,� she says, �you could feel the entire congregation and I could certainly feel myself stiffen, the kind of spine, and this deep sadness was being replaced by resolve. �We all felt that we still had mourning to do for our countrymen who had been lost but that we also had a new purpose in not just avenging what had happened to them but making certain that the world was eventually going to be safe from this kind of attack ever again.� Next came a visit to ground zero. The president was not prepared for what he encountered there. �You couldn�t brief me, you couldn�t brief anybody on ground zero until you saw it," Mr. Bush says. �It was like � it was ghostly. Like you�re having a bad dream and you�re walking through the dream.� The president found the scene very powerful, particularly when the men and women at ground zero began to chant, �USA! USA!.� �There was a lot of bloodlust,� the president recalls. �People were, you know, pointing their big old hands at me saying, �Don�t you ever forget this, Mr. President. Don�t let us down.� The scene was very powerful. Very powerful.� When Mr. Bush tried to speak, the crowd kept shouting, �We can�t hear you.� The president responded, �I can hear you. I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.� Mr. Bush had been in New York just a few weeks before; he�d posed with the firemen who always stood by whenever the president�s helicopter landed there. Now, five of the men who stood with the president in the picture were dead � lost at ground zero. When the president arrived Sept. 14, Manhattan was papered with the faces of the lost. Families, unable to believe that so many had vanished in an instant, held onto the hope that their loved ones were just missing. It was a place where a child comforted a grieving mother. At a meeting the public never saw, the president spoke with several hundred of these families in a convention hall. �People said to me, �He�ll come out. Don�t worry, Mr. president, we�ll see him soon. I know my loved one, he will - he�ll find a place to survive underneath the rubble and we�ll get him out.� I, on the other hand had been briefed about the realities, and my job was to hug and cry, but I remember the whole time thinking, �This is incredibly sad because the loved ones won�t come out.�� One little boy handed the president a picture of his father in his firefighter uniform and as he signed it, Mr. Bush remembers, he told the boy, �Your daddy won�t believe that I was here, so you show him that autograph.� It was an effort �to provide a little hope,� the president recalls. �I still get emotional thinking about it because we�re dealing with people who loved their dads or loved their mom, or loved their�wives who loved their husbands. It was a tough time, you know, it was a tough time for all of us because we were a very emotional, and I was emotional at times. I felt, I felt the same now as I did then, which is sad. And I still feel sad for those who grieve for their families, but through my tears, I see opportunity.� The president was supposed to be with the families for about 30 minutes; he stayed for two and a half hours. It was there he met Arlene Howard. The body of her son, George, was among the first to be found at ground zero. �I called the police department,� Howard remembers, � and they said he hadn�t called in for roll call and to call back in an hour and I said, �No, I don�t need to call back.� If he hadn�t called in, I knew where he was.� George Howard had rescued children trapped in an elevator back in 1993 when the World Trade Center was bombed. He had been off duty that day, and he was off duty on Sept. 11, but couldn�t stay away. The police department gave his badge to his mother and she gave it to the president. �He (the president) he leaned over to talk to me,� Howard recalls. �And he extends his sympathy to me and that�s when I asked him I�d like to present George�s shield to him in honor of all the men and women who were killed over there.� By the end of that day, Mr. Bush flew to Camp David visibly drained. �He was physically exhausted, he was mentally exhausted, he was emotionally exhausted, he was spiritually exhausted,� recalls Card.. The next day � Saturday, Sept. 15 - Mr. Bush met members of his war cabinet at the presidential retreat for a last decisive meeting. �My message is for everybody who wears the uniform � get ready. The United States will do what it takes,� Mr. Bush told them. As Powell remembers it, �He was encouraging us to think boldly. He was listening to all ideas; he was not constrained to any one idea; he wanted to hear his advisors talk and argue and debate with each other.� President Bush was pleased with the progress that had been made. �On the other hand,� he says, �I wanted to clarify plans and I went around the room and I asked everybody what they thought ought to happen.� When he left that meeting on Saturday night, he still had not told the cabinet what he was planning. �I wanted to just think it through,� Mr. Bush remembers. �Any time you commit troops to harm�s way, a president must make sure that he fully understands all the consequences and ramifications. And I wanted to just spend some time on it alone. And did.� What were his reservations? Mr. Bush says, �Could we win? I didn�t want to be putting our troops in there unless I was certain we could win. And I was certain we could win.� Nine days after the attacks on America, before a joint session of Congress the president committed the nation to the war on terror. �Each of us will remember what happened that day and to whom it happened,� Mr. Bush told the Congress and the nation. �We�ll remember the moment the news came, where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever. And I will carry this. It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. It is my reminder of lives that ended and a task that does not end.� A year has passed since then, but the president says his job is still to remind Americans of what happened and of the war that is still being waged, a war he reminds himself of every day in the Oval Office, literally keeping score, one terrorist at a time. In his desk, the president says, �I have a classified document that might have some pictures on there, just to keep reminding me about who�s out there, where they might be� And as the terrorists are captures or killed? �I might make a little check there, yeah,� Mr. Bush admits. But there is no check by the name that must be on the top of that list � Osama bin Laden. (CBS)�A lot has happened in the year since Sept. 11. One year ago, the president was new on the job, with little experience in foreign policy. He had wanted to pull the military back from foreign entanglements. Now, on his orders, U.S. forces are engaged around the globe in a war he did not expect, in a world completely changed. In the Oval Office last week, CBS News Correspondent Scott Pelley asked the president about Iraq, about whether Americans are safe at home and about Osama bin Laden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott Pelley: You must be frustrated, maybe angry. After a year, we still don�t have Osama Bin Laden? President Bush: How do you know that? I don�t know whether Osama bin Laden is dead or alive. I don�t know that. He�s not leading a lot of parades. And he�s not nearly the hero that a lot of people thought he was. This is much bigger than one person anyway. This is � we�re slowly but surely dismantling and disrupting the al Qaeda network that, that hates America. And we will stay on task until we complete the task. I always knew this was a different kind of war, Scott. See, in the old days, you measure the size and the strength of the enemy by counting his tanks or his airplanes and his ships. This is an international manhunt. We�re after these people one at the time. They�re killers. Period. Pelley: But have you won the war before you find Osama bin Laden dead or alive? Mr. Bush: If he were dead, there�s somebody else to replace him. And we would find that person. But slowly but surely, we will dismantle the al Qaeda network. And those who sponsor them and those who harbor them. And at the same time, hopefully lay the seeds for, the conditions necessary so that people don�t feel like they�ve got to conduct terror to achieve objectives. Pelley: Do you look back on the Afghan campaign with any doubts? Certainly, we�ve overthrown the Taliban government. Certainly, al Qaeda has been scattered. But some of the Taliban leaders appear to have gotten away. And there have been many civilian casualties as well. Mr. Bush: Uh huh. Well, you know, I am sad that civilians lost their life. But I understand war. We did everything we can to � everything we could to protect people. When civilians did die, it was because of a mistake. Certainly not because of intention. We liberated a country for which I�m extremely proud. No, � I don�t second guess things. It�s � things never go perfect in a time of war. Pelley: Are you committed to ending the rule of Saddam Hussein? Mr. Bush: I�m committed to regime change. Pelley: There are those who have been vocal in their advice against war in Iraq. Some of our allies in the Gulf War, Saudi Arabia, Turkey for example. Even your father�s former national security advisor, Mr. Scowcroft has written about it in the paper. What is it in your estimation that they don�t understand about the Iraq question that you do appreciate? Mr. Bush: The policy of the government is regime change, Scott, hasn�t changed. I get all kinds of advice. I�m listening to the advice. I appreciate the consultations. And we�ll consult with a lot of people but our policy hasn�t changed. Pelley: On Air Force One you described the terrorists as evil. Mr. Bush: Yeah. Pelley: I don�t think anyone would disagree with that, but at the same time, many in the Arab world are angry at the United States for political reasons because of our policy in Israel or our troops in the oil region of the Middle East. Is there any change in foreign policy that you�re considering that might reduce Arab anger against the United States. Mr. Bush: Hmm. Well, I�m working for peace in the Middle East. I�m the first president that ever went to the United Nations and publicly declared the need to have a Palestinian state living side-by-side with Israel in peace. I�ve made it clear that in order for there to be peace the Palestinians have gotta to get some leadership that renounces terror and believes in peaces and quits using the Palestinian people as pawns. I've also made it clear to the other Arab nations in the region that they�ve got responsibilities. If you want peace they gotta work toward it. We�re more than willing to work for it, but they have to work for it as well. But all this business isn�t going to happen as long as a few are willing to blow up the hopes of many. So we all gotta work to fight off terror. Pelley: Arafat has to go? Mr. Bush: Either, he�s, he�s been a complete failure as far as I am concerned. Utter disappointment. Pelley: There has been some concern over the year about civil liberties. Mr. Bush: Yeah� Pelley: In fact, an appeals court recently was harsh about your administration�s decision to close certain deportation hearings. They said, quote, �A government operating in secrecy stands in opposition to the Constitution.� Where do you draw the line sir? Mr. Bush: I draw the line at the Constitution. We will protect America. But we will do so on, within the guidelines of the Constitution, confines of the Constitution, spirit of the Constitution. Pelley: Is there anything that the Justice Department has brought to you as an idea that you�ve thought, �No, that�s too far. I don�t wanna go�" Mr. Bush: Nah, not that that I remember. And I am pleased with the Justice Department. I think that Attorney General�s doing a fine job, by the way...and to the extent that our courts are willing to make sure that they review decisions we make, I think that�s fine. I mean, that�s good. It�s healthy. It�s part of America. Pelley: Franklin Roosevelt said that America should stand in defense of four freedoms. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from want and freedom from fear. Do we have that today Mr. President? Freedom from fear? Mr. Bush: I think more than we did, in retrospect. The fact that we are on alert, the fact that we understand the new circumstances makes us more free from fear than on that fateful day of September the 11th. We�ve got more work to do. Pelley: And Americans should not live their lives in fear? Mr. Bush: I don�t think so. No. I think Americans oughta know their government�s doing everything possible to help. And obviously if we get information that relates directly a particular attack we�ll deal with it. And if we get noise that deals with a general attack, we�ll alert people. There are a lot of good folks working hard to disrupt and deny and run down leads. And the American people need to go about their lives. It seems like they are.

dylsexics of the wrold, untie! > (and no it wasnt me even though the spellingis > oddly familar) Not that this is news to FoRKs, but: <http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000393.html> > ... randomising letters in the middle of words [has] little or no > effect on the ability of skilled readers to understand the text. This > is easy to denmtrasote. In a pubiltacion of New Scnieitst you could > ramdinose all the letetrs, keipeng the first two and last two the same, > and reibadailty would hadrly be aftcfeed. My ansaylis did not come > to much beucase the thoery at the time was for shape and senqeuce > retigcionon. Saberi's work sugsegts we may have some pofrweul palrlael > prsooscers at work. The resaon for this is suerly that idnetiyfing > coentnt by paarllel prseocsing speeds up regnicoiton. We only need > the first and last two letetrs to spot chganes in meniang. -Dave

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! Dave Long writes: > > (and no it wasnt me even though the spellingis > > oddly familar) > > Not that this is news to FoRKs, but: > > <http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000393.html> > > > ... randomising letters in the middle of words [has] little or no > > effect on the ability of skilled readers to understand the text. This > > is easy to denmtrasote. In a pubiltacion of New Scnieitst you could > > ramdinose all the letetrs, keipeng the first two and last two the same, > > and reibadailty would hadrly be aftcfeed. My ansaylis did not come > > to much beucase the thoery at the time was for shape and senqeuce > > retigcionon. Saberi's work sugsegts we may have some pofrweul palrlael > > prsooscers at work. The resaon for this is suerly that idnetiyfing > > coentnt by paarllel prseocsing speeds up regnicoiton. We only need > > the first and last two letetrs to spot chganes in meniang. Hmm, there's probably a patentable input-method for touch-tone keypads in there somewhere. - Gordon

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 12:22, Dave Long wrote: > <http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000393.html> > > > ... randomising letters in the middle of words [has] little or no > > effect on the ability of skilled readers to understand the text. This > > is easy to denmtrasote. In a pubiltacion of New Scnieitst you could > > ramdinose all the letetrs, keipeng the first two and last two the same, > > and reibadailty would hadrly be aftcfeed. My ansaylis did not come > > to much beucase the thoery at the time was for shape and senqeuce > > retigcionon. Saberi's work sugsegts we may have some pofrweul palrlael > > prsooscers at work. The resaon for this is suerly that idnetiyfing > > coentnt by paarllel prseocsing speeds up regnicoiton. We only need > > the first and last two letetrs to spot chganes in meniang. I'm working with an experimental text recognition/processing engine that exhibits similar characteristics. It can read right through misspellings like the above without any difficulty. And as the author above suggested, the pattern matching is inherently parallel internally. If the text recognition algorithm/architecture humans use is anything like the algorithm/structure we've been working with, the reason the first letter (and to a lesser extent, the last letter) is important is that without it the text pattern recognition problem is exponentially more difficult (from a theoretical standpoint anyway) and has to be resolved using deeper abstraction analysis. The middle letters are far less important and computationally much easier to resolve correctly. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! So much for carnivore ;) -- Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications - blog: http://www.auracom.com/~teledyn - biz: http://teledyn.com/ - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! On 12 Sep 2002, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: --] --]So much for carnivore ;) Yep, that ws the plan all alng with my typos, I am the only one to be consistently fighting the evls of da vore.

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Tom wrote: > Yep, that ws the plan all alng with my typos, I am the only one to be > consistently fighting the evls of da vore. Well, yeah, but there's an easier way. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=STARTTLS&spell=1 There's still MITM, but it requires a far higher capability, and is easier to detect once you go beyond the scamed interaction of two parties, since being manipulative in principle. If you run your own mailserver, or have a say in what your host does, make him adopt STARTTLS.

RE: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! > If the text recognition algorithm/architecture humans use is anything > like the algorithm/structure we've been working with, the reason the > first letter (and to a lesser extent, the last letter) is important is > that without it the text pattern recognition problem is exponentially > more difficult (from a theoretical standpoint anyway) and has to be > resolved using deeper abstraction analysis. The middle letters are far > less important and computationally much easier to resolve correctly. I think keeping the number of middle letters consistent with the correct spelling is important. Would be interesting to see if this same effect is applicable to written forms of other languages, maybe even Japanese romongi. Bill

Re: From salon.com - Forbidden thoughts about 9/11 --0-1051763016-1031874793=:3397 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am delurking to comment on the Salon article. I just wanted to say that I am grateful they choose not to publish my forbidden thought. I sent it in a couple of days before the 9/11 commeration. If I had just watched the sentimental network and cable shows on 9/11 my cynical thoughts would have remain unchanged. However, I watch the Frontline show "Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero" on PBS. That show tackled head on, with much more courage than I have seen elsewhere, the larger questions about good and evil, about art as an alternate religion (Karlheinz Stockhausen -- 9/11 was a great work of art), and especially the question about how religion has a darker side which when carried to fanatic extremes tends to negate the humanity of the non-believers. I am not a religious person but I stunned at the scope of this program. It talked about the Lutheran minister who spoke at Yankees Stadium on a podium with other religious leaders present who was charged with heresy by his own church for promoting the idea that all religions are equal (presumably the Lutherans have the one true path?). Thanks for listening, I just felt like I needed to put the word out about this program. My shallow comment on Salon and others like it (my boyfriend and I had sex while the towers collapsed) gives me pause about how some of us tend to harden ourselves to the suffering of others. Mike Chris Haun wrote:i though this was all rather interesting, first bit of 9/11 coverage that i've liked. http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/index.html Chris --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines --0-1051763016-1031874793=:3397 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P>I am delurking to comment on the Salon article. I just wanted to say that I am grateful they choose not to publish my forbidden thought. I sent it in a couple of days before the 9/11 commeration. If I had just watched the sentimental network and cable shows on 9/11 my cynical thoughts would have remain unchanged. However, I watch the Frontline show "Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero" on PBS. That show tackled head on, with much more courage than I have seen elsewhere, the larger questions about good and evil, about art as an alternate religion (Karlheinz Stockhausen -- 9/11 was a great work of art), and especially the question about how religion has a darker side which when carried to fanatic extremes tends to negate the humanity of the non-believers. <P>I am not a religious person but I stunned at the scope of this program. It talked about the Lutheran minister who spoke at Yankees Stadium on a podium with other religious leaders present who was charged with heresy by his own church for promoting the idea that all religions are equal (presumably the Lutherans have the one true path?). <P>Thanks for listening, I just felt like I needed to put the word out about this program. My shallow comment on Salon and others like it (my boyfriend and I had sex while the towers collapsed) gives me pause about how&nbsp;some&nbsp;of us&nbsp;tend to harden ourselves to the suffering of others. <P>Mike <P>&nbsp;<B><I>Chris Haun <CHRIS@NOSKILLZ.COM></I></B>wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">i though this was all rather interesting, first bit of 9/11 coverage that <BR>i've liked.<BR><BR>http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/index.html<BR><BR>Chris<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <b><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! News</a></b> - Today's headlines --0-1051763016-1031874793=:3397--

plate tectonics update When we were discussing Kuhn, I wrote: <http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2001-July/001854.html> > My understanding of the history of > plate tectonics is that the magnetic > reversal patterns encoded in seafloor > basalts were crucial supporting data > which suddenly became available only > after Navy declassification, so the > adoption curve may be skewed. Many of the essays in Oreskes' _Plate Tectonics_ seem to support this idea: Sandwell, "Plate Tectonics: A Martian View" > In this essay, I'll describe a few of the important confirmations of > plate tectonic theory provided by satellites and ships. These tools > were largely developed to support the Cold War effort, and many are > labeled geodetic since they are used to make precise measurements > of the size and shape of the earth and the spatial variations in the > pull of gravity. The tools of satellite geodesy are needed for all > aspects of global warfare; precise satellite tracking and gravity > field development are needed for precision satellite surveillance > as well as for targeting ballistic missiles; the global positioning > system is used in all aspects of modern warfare; radar altimetery is > used or aiming submarine-launched ballistic missiles as well as for > inertial navigation when submerged. > > The global seismic networks were developed, primarily, to monitor > underground nuclear tests. Marine magnetometers were developed, > primarily, for detection of submarines. Multibeam sea floor mapping > systems were developed, primarily, for surveying critical and > operational areas of the northern oceans. ... and the Navy was in no hurry to declassify any of these data, as any uneven coverage could have revealed the parts of the oceans they found most interesting. -Dave (What do our seismic networks say about the middle east? I hazily recall a story about LA reporters asking their local geophysicists about an early morning quake, to be told that, as far as could be figured, the "epicenter" was at a negative depth, travelling near mach speed, and presumably headed towards Edwards)

Re: dylsexics of the wrold, untie! > I think keeping the number of middle letters consistent with the correct > spelling is important. Aeftr tinryg it out on my lacol daciinorty, the worst I cloud find were teilprs, and of tehm the most cfinnosug seeemd to be: parental paternal prenatal as cenotxt wloud be mcuh more sacfgiiinnt with the rest, scuh as: bakers beakers breaks 98% of the 45k wdors were uinque. -Dave 1. romaji, or european languages which tend to end in vowels, would presumably work better with attention on the ending syllable (or at least consonant sound) 2. are typos a larger or smaller space? I had a whoromatic proggy that scattered transpositions at hazard where the hands alternated quickly; that would be a much smaller space -- but transposing/eliding spaces might make for a much larger one.

Re: The Big Jump The USAF had a program in the 1959-1960 in which successful free jumps were made from balloons at up to ~32 km (100,000 ft.). The relevance was astronauts and SR-71 bailouts. This would top that achievement comfortably. http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/postwwii/pe.htm Chuck On Monday, September 9, 2002, at 11:20 AM, Owen Byrne wrote: > John Hall wrote: > >> Why so fast? Normal terminal velocity is much slower. >> > Not at 40,000 m. I found this article > (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,53928,00.html) : > > "The last person to try to break the highest free fall record died in > the attempt. In 1965, New Jersey truck driver Nick Piantanida suffered > catastrophic equipment failure when his facemask blew out at 57,000 > feet. Lack of oxygen caused such severe brain damage that he went into > a coma and died four months later." > > And in amongst the flash at > http://www.legrandsaut.org/site_en/ > > you can discover that he will break the sound barrier at 35,000 m, > presumably reaching top speed somewhere above 30,000. > > Owen > >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of >>> bitbitch@magnesium.net >>> Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:36 AM >>> To: (Robert Harley) >>> Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org >>> Subject: Re: The Big Jump >>> >>> >>> >>> So uh, would this qualify for the Darwin awards if he doesn't make it? >>> >>> Freaking french people... >>> :-) >>> -BB >>> RH> Today a French officer called Michel Fournier is supposed to get >>> >> in a >> >>> RH> 350-metre tall helium balloon, ride it up to the edge of space (40 >>> >> km >> >>> RH> altitude) and jump out. His fall should last 6.5 minutes and >>> >> reach >> >>> RH> speeds of Mach 1.5. He hopes to open his parachute manually at >>> >> the >> >>> RH> end, although with an automatic backup if he is 7 seconds from the >>> RH> ground and still hasn't opened it. >>> >>> RH> R >>> >>> RH> ObQuote: >>> RH> "Veder�, si aver� si grossi li coglioni, come ha il re di >>> >> Franza." >> >>> RH> ("Let's see if I've got as much balls as the King of France!") >>> RH> - Pope Julius II, 2 January 1511 >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> bitbitch mailto:bitbitch@magnesium.net >>> >> >> >> > > >

introductions As I've had to resubscribe to fork and fork-noarchive, I guess I have to reintroduce myself. I'm formerly known as gbolcer at endtech dot com to the FoRK mailman program, formerly an overposter, and love soaking up bits through avid reading or scanning of almost every single list that's got informative to say. Hopefully all those overpost will get cleared out at somepoint and fork-archived. Greg

Slaughter in the Name of God An old Indian friend forwarded this to me a while ago. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A58173-2002Mar7&notFound=true Slaughter in the Name of God By Salman Rushdie Friday, March 8, 2002; Page A33 Washington Post The defining image of the week, for me, is of a small child's burned and blackened arm, its tiny fingers curled into a fist, protruding from the remains of a human bonfire in Ahmadabad, Gujarat, in India. The murder of children is something of an Indian specialty. The routine daily killings of unwanted girl babies . . . the massacre of innocents in Nellie, Assam, in the 1980s when village turned against neighboring village . . . the massacre of Sikh children in Delhi during the horrifying reprisal murders that followed Indira Gandhi's assassination: They bear witness to our particular gift, always most dazzlingly in evidence at times of religious unrest, for dousing our children in kerosene and setting them alight, or cutting their throats, or smothering them or just clubbing them to death with a good strong length of wood. I say "our" because I write as an Indian man, born and bred, who loves India deeply and knows that what one of us does today, any of us is potentially capable of doing tomorrow. If I take pride in India's strengths, then India's sins must be mine as well. Do I sound angry? Good. Ashamed and disgusted? I certainly hope so. Because, as India undergoes its worst bout of Hindu-Muslim bloodletting in more than a decade, many people have not been sounding anything like angry, ashamed or disgusted enough. Police chiefs have been excusing their men's unwillingness to defend the citizens of India, without regard to religion, by saying that these men have feelings too and are subject to the same sentiments as the nation in general. Meanwhile, India's political masters have been tut-tutting and offering the usual soothing lies about the situation being brought under control. (It has escaped nobody's notice that the ruling party, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), or Indian People's Party, and the Hindu extremists of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), or World Hindu Council, are sister organizations and offshoots of the same parent body.) Even some international commentators, such as Britain's Independent newspaper, urge us to "beware excess pessimism." The horrible truth about communal slaughter in India is that we're used to it. It happens every so often; then it dies down. That's how life is, folks. Most of the time India is the world's largest secular democracy; and if, once in a while, it lets off a little crazy religious steam, we mustn't let that distort the picture. Of course, there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992, when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque in Ayodhya, which they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic echoes of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists' hands. The VHP has evidently tired of what it sees as the equivocations and insufficient radicalism of India's BJP government. Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is more moderate than his party; he also heads a coalition government and has been obliged to abandon much of the BJP's more extreme Hindu nationalist rhetoric to hold the coalition together. But it isn't working anymore. In state elections across the country, the BJP is being trounced. This may have been the last straw for the VHP firebrands. Why put up with the government's betrayal of their fascistic agenda when that betrayal doesn't even result in electoral success? The electoral failure of the BJP is thus, in all probability, the spark that lit the fire. The VHP is determined to build a Hindu temple on the site of the demolished Ayodhya mosque -- that's where the Godhra dead were coming from -- and there are, reprehensibly, idiotically, tragically, Muslims in India equally determined to resist them. Vajpayee has insisted that the slow Indian courts must decide the rights and wrongs of the Ayodhya issue. The VHP is no longer prepared to wait. The distinguished Indian writer Mahasveta Devi, in a letter to India's president, K. R. Narayanan, blames the Gujarat government (led by a BJP hard-liner) as well as the central government for doing "too little too late." She pins the blame firmly on the "motivated, well-planned out and provocative actions" of the Hindu nationalists. But another writer, the Nobel laureate V. S. Naipaul, speaking in India just a week before the violence erupted, denounced India's Muslims en masse and praised the nationalist movement. The murderers of Godhra must indeed be denounced, and Mahasveta Devi in her letter demands "stern legal action" against them. But the VHP is determined to destroy that secular democracy in which India takes such public pride and which it does so little to protect; and by supporting them, Naipaul makes himself a fellow traveler of fascism and disgraces the Nobel award. The political discourse matters, and explains a good deal. But there's something beneath it, something we don't want to look in the face: namely, that in India, as elsewhere in our darkening world, religion is the poison in the blood. Where religion intervenes, mere innocence is no excuse. Yet we go on skating around this issue, speaking of religion in the fashionable language of "respect." What is there to respect in any of this, or in any of the crimes now being committed almost daily around the world in religion's dreaded name? How well, with what fatal results, religion erects totems, and how willing we are to kill for them! And when we've done it often enough, the deadening of affect that results makes it easier to do it again. So India's problem turns out to be the world's problem. What happened in India has happened in God's name. The problem's name is God. Salman Rushdie is a novelist and author of the forthcoming essay collection "Step Across This Line." � 2002 The Washington Post Company sdw -- sdw@lig.net http://sdw.st Stephen D. Williams 43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax Dec2001

RE: Slaughter in the Name of God What I understood was that the activists on the train refused to pay for the food and other items they acquired from the Muslim vendors -- then taunted them. That may not be true, but it would put things in a more interesting light. Taking food from a small vendor in India and not paying them is trying to starve them. It sounded consistent with the ideas and purpose of the train full of activists. I'm rarely an apologist for Muslims anywhere. Yet I find my sympathies with the Muslims in this case, even after they burned the train. > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of > Stephen D. Williams > The pity of it is that some > Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the > train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic echoes > of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the > partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists' hands.

Re: Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review The usual crud. Why do morons ranting and beating their chests in the National Review (or similar rags) merit FoRKing?

RE: Slaughter in the Name of God First, it was my understanding that they had the food before they refused to pay. I often have the goods in my possession before I settle the paycheck. Second, 'not being paid for a little food' is an awfully big deal in India. It isn't far from stealing the only food my children have so I'll have to watch them starve. The margin of survival is very, very, thin. So yes. In my particular reality distortion field 'not paying for a little food' in India is akin to a direct act of violence intended to cause suffering if not death on the victims family. That such an act triggers a violent response is, IMHO, hardly surprising. In other words, as far as I could tell the people on the train fired the first shot. With all of that said I still don't know if this happened or not. Nor do I know for sure that the margin of survival for those Muslim vendors was that thin. > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen D. Williams [mailto:swilliams@hpti.com] > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:54 AM > To: johnhall@evergo.net > Cc: fork@spamassassin.taint.org; lea@lig.net > Subject: Re: Slaughter in the Name of God > > Wow! It seems you are evaluating this with a large reality distortion > field. > > If the activists on the train refused to pay for food, then the vendors > shouldn't give it to them. And the local police force should be > arresting them. Etc. > > You have to be operating from a particularly primitive point of view, > which obviously was in operation with the participants here, to think > that religious differences or not being paid for a little food (or > taunting!) was even a remote justification for burning a train full of > people alive. > > sdw > > John Hall wrote: > > What I understood was that the activists on the train refused to pay for > > the food and other items they acquired from the Muslim vendors -- then > > taunted them. > > > > That may not be true, but it would put things in a more interesting > > light. Taking food from a small vendor in India and not paying them is > > trying to starve them. > > > > It sounded consistent with the ideas and purpose of the train full of > > activists. > > > > I'm rarely an apologist for Muslims anywhere. Yet I find my sympathies > > with the Muslims in this case, even after they burned the train. > > > > > > > >>From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com] On Behalf Of > >>Stephen D. Williams > > > > > >>The pity of it is that some > >>Muslims were ready to give it to them. Their murderous attack on the > >>train-load of VHP activists at Godhra (with its awful, atavistic > > > > echoes > > > >>of the killings of Hindus and Muslims by the train-load during the > >>partition riots of 1947) played right into the Hindu extremists' > > > > hands. > > sdw > -- > swilliams@hpti.com http://www.hpti.com > Stephen D. Williams, Senior Technical Director > >

Re: storage bits On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > It's efficient-end, not low end. At 1Million hour MTBF, 133MB/sec, > and pretty good buffering and speed, the only thing going for SCSI is > 15,000 RPM vs. 7200 and in a very small number of cases, slightly > better scatter-gather. (Actually, I think there might be a 15,000 RPM > IDE now.) It's not just krpm, the desktop HDs have a higher failure rate. But I agree, EIDE has high density, and EIDE hardware RAID can offer SCSI a sound beating for reliability, performance, and storage density/rack units for the money, if designed for it, and if people would actually start buying it. > The other issues are pretty much non-issues: using multiple drives and > controller contention (just use many IDE channels with extra PCI > cards, up to 10 in some systems), and long cable runs (just split There are not all that many hard drives inside an 1U enclosure. Airflow blockage (you have to fit in 2-3x the number of SCSI disks with EIDE) will soon be a thing of the past due to SATA. > storage between nodes). Dual-port SCSI is also a non-issue since it > is very expensive, doesn't work that well in practice because there > are numerous secondary failure modes for shared disk systems, and > because you still end up with a single point of failure. Since rack-space costs dominate, and our systems need more or less decent I/O we're going with 1U Dells with SCSI. The hard drive prices don't really make a visible difference, given the cost of the iron, and the rackspace/month. Plus, 1U Dells don't have any space left for lots of EIDE drives.

RE: introductions the doctor wears many hats, including but not limited to a rubber skullcap for playing water polo, a beret for making sparkling wines, and an oversized fedora to deflect his own cigar smoke, which he regularly blows up my ... <cough> geege -----Original Message----- From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of Jim Whitehead Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:08 PM To: FoRK Subject: RE: introductions > Aren't you Dr. Gregory A. Bolcer, Dutch Uncle of P2P? I thought he was Greg Bolcer, recovering XPilot & Doom junkie... - Jim

RE: Slaughter in the Name of God > From: Stephen D. Williams [mailto:swilliams@hpti.com] > > Just to further weaken the food transaction argument, I'll note that in > my neighborhood, the local McDonalds won't even hand you your drink in > the drive through until you fork over the cash. Maybe you never bought a hot dog from a street vendor. > And why is it that the margin of survival is so thin? Could it be that > all of these tribal rivalries are part of what's holding back wholesale > movement to the modern, first world patterns of constructive thinking? Well, yes. But it doesn't change the idea that the margin of survival probably IS that thin in this region. > I'm sure that both sides were ready to be the agressor. I'm not. I'm sure both sides were equally ready to be the aggressor provided they were in a predominant position of power. > Bush's reluctance to blast blind obeyance of religion as taught by your > local madrassa or KKK leader, apparently because he is fully involved > with the general effort to expand unfettered religiosity as the solution > to the world's ills, is disappointing. He has spoke against madrassa, > but what I heard sounded lame and carefully crafted to shield religion > in general from scrutiny. 1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters. 2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion. 3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural. > We all have > disagreements, but at some point it becomes a crime against humanity. I didn't say burning the train was a good thing. I said I understood it wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong.

Re: Slaughter in the Name of God John Hall wrote: >>From: Stephen D. Williams [mailto:swilliams@hpti.com] >> >> >>Bush's reluctance to blast blind obeyance of religion as taught by >> >your > > >>local madrassa or KKK leader, apparently because he is fully involved >>with the general effort to expand unfettered religiosity as the >> >> >solution > >>to the world's ills, is disappointing. He has spoke against madrassa, >>but what I heard sounded lame and carefully crafted to shield religion >>in general from scrutiny. >> >> > >1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters. > A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its past? Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc. B) "How it is currently being expressed" amounts to a tacit acknowledgement that the sophistication of the society involved and people's self-limiting reasonableness are important to avoid primitive expression. This leads to the point that religion and less sophisticated societies are a dangerous mix. It also tends to invoke the image of extremes that might occur without diligent maintenance of society. C) Many splinter Christianity religions have 'clean hands' but they also aren't 'found in the wild'. (By "primitive expression", I don't mean to slight any society, but that there is some chronic evidence of irrational mob actions and uncivilized behavior (killing infants, women to break religious blue laws, etc.). The US has only really been mostly free of "primitive expression" for 40-50 years, although large categories, including serious religious conflict, were settled quite a while ago.) D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently more or less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of friction generated by splitting society too much along religious lines. One Post article pointed out that the problem basically stemmed from the vertical integration of areas along religious lines all the way to schools, government, political party, etc. (Of course both cases have a heritage of British conquest, but who doesn't?) (I couldn't find the article I remember, but here are a couple of others:) http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A33761-2001Jul8&notFound=true http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A15956-2002Jul16&notFound=true 'Northern Ireland is a British province of green valleys and cloud-covered hills whose 1.6 million people are politically and religiously divided. About 54 percent of the population is Protestant, and most Protestants are unionists who want the province to remain part of Britain. The Roman Catholic minority is predominantly republican, or nationalist; they want to merge with the Republic of Ireland to the south. In 1968, Catholic leaders launched a civil rights drive modeled on the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s campaign in the American South. But violence quickly broke out, with ancient religious animosities fueling the political argument. Armed paramilitary groups sprung up on both sides. Police records and historians agree that the most lethal group by far was the IRA, fighting on the Catholic side with a goal of a united Ireland The provincial police force estimates that about 3,600 people were killed during the 30-year conflict known, with characteristic Northern Ireland understatement, as "The Troubles."' >2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion. > That's fine, as it would be an inappropriate concentration. It would be difficult to address the issues raised here in a clean way. I'd be happy with an acknowledgement that the connection is there. >3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural. > This is ok to a point, as long as it doesn't shy away from logical, objective analysis of when a society could be seriously improved in certain ways. >>We all have >>disagreements, but at some point it becomes a crime against humanity. >> >> > >I didn't say burning the train was a good thing. I said I understood it >wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong. > True, although I don't think you were as clear originally. :-) sdw

RE: Slaughter in the Name of God > From: Stephen D. Williams [mailto:sdw@lig.net] > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 7:42 PM > >1. Which religion and how it is currently being expressed matters. > > > A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its past? > Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc. Hence the qualifier 'current'. > B) "How it is currently being expressed" amounts to a tacit > acknowledgement that the sophistication of the society involved and > people's self-limiting reasonableness are important to avoid primitive > expression. This leads to the point that religion and less > sophisticated societies are a dangerous mix. It also tends to invoke > the image of extremes that might occur without diligent maintenance of > society. The tacit acknowledgement and self-limiting you speak of is not a given or a function of 'sophistication' but is primarily a feature of (current) Western Civilization. Of course, 'sophisticated' and 'Western Civilization' are essentially equivalent IMHO. But it need not be so. > D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently more or > less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of friction generated > by splitting society too much along religious lines. One Post article > pointed out that the problem basically stemmed from the vertical > integration of areas along religious lines all the way to schools, > government, political party, etc. (Of course both cases have a heritage > of British conquest, but who doesn't?) And sometimes the religious component is a fa�ade for an equally dangerous ethnic affiliation. Hindu extremism isn't about the Hindu religious theology as far as I can see. It is a peg to hang an ethnic identity and identity politics on. Muslim extremism appears to have a far greater connection to theology. > 'Northern Ireland is a British province of green valleys and > cloud-covered hills whose 1.6 million people are politically and > religiously divided. About 54 percent of the population is Protestant, > and most Protestants are unionists who want the province to remain part > of Britain. The Roman Catholic minority is predominantly republican, or > nationalist; they want to merge with the Republic of Ireland to the south. Yep, all because the Scots ate oats and starved their Irish out long ago, while the English preferred wheat and that doesn't grow so well in Ireland. That and the introduction of potatoes saved the Irish as Irish. > That's fine, as it would be an inappropriate concentration. It would be > difficult to address the issues raised here in a clean way. I'd be > happy with an acknowledgement that the connection is there. Oh, I think we are in a war with wide aspects of the Muslim religion. I know it is there, but it just might not be appropriate to admit it publicly. > >3. US Leadership remains reflexively multi-cultural. > > > This is ok to a point, as long as it doesn't shy away from logical, > objective analysis of when a society could be seriously improved in > certain ways. I didn't say this was a *good* thing. With the exception of ethnic restaurants, I can generally be counted on to oppose anything labeled 'multi-cultural'. > >I didn't say burning the train was a good thing. I said I understood it > >wasn't a spontaneous attack on people who had done no wrong. > > > > True, although I don't think you were as clear originally. :-) I'm sure I wasn't.

<nettime> The War Prayer --- begin forwarded text Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:57:27 -0700 To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net From: Phil Duncan <PDuncan@AggregateStudio.com> Subject: <nettime> The War Prayer Sender: nettime-l-request@bbs.thing.net Reply-To: Phil Duncan <PDuncan@AggregateStudio.com> The following prayer is from a story by Mark Twain, and was quoted by Lewis Laphan in the October issue of Harper's magazine. It occurs at the very end of an excellent article which I recommend to you. In the story, an old man enters a church where the congregation has been listening to an heroic sermon about "the glory to be won in battle by young patriots armed with the love of God." He usurps the pulpit and prays the following: "O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreads with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen." Twain wrote the story, "The War Prayer," in 1905 during the American occupation of the Philippines, but the story wasn't printed until 1923, thirteen years after his death, because the editors thought it "unsuitable" for publication at the time it was written. # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: storage bits On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Williams wrote: > To make what work? I already pointed out that a single drive is > comparable between IDE/SCSI. Alas, that's wrong. Both the drives are faster (10..15 krpm vs. ~7 krpm, faster seek), and the EIDE protocol is ridiculously dumb (queing; disconnect). > I think you're wrong with recent releases. I'll check this week. > There's also JFS and XFS. None of them are production quality. Right now only ext2 and ext3 qualify. It will take a good while (a year, or two) before we can trust anything else. > >SCSI has got advantages still, particular if it comes to off-shelf > >high-density racks. > > > Check out RaidZone.com. Have you looked inside a dual-CPU 1U Dell? Three drives are easy to get in. Anything else would require a redesign, and would in nontrivial thermal engineering issues. > A number of vendors are putting the Promise IDE hardware on the > motherboard. All that remains is the proper drive socket. I can't think of a single major vendor who sells 1U systems with hardware EIDE RAID. > Additionally, you can get hardware IDE raid as a pair of drive bays or > even an IDE-IDEx2 controller that can be screwed into a 1U chassis. I believe you that stuff can be found, if one is looking for it. However, I wouldn't put this into production unless I've had that system hanging in the local rack under simulated load for a half a year.

Re: introductions I'd like to claim the parenthood of desktop web services, but then there's a ton of people doing it now. What I am the parent of is, Jackson Alan Bolcer--I just realized that the birth announcement was something that didn't get sent through due to my general laziness of being kicked off of FoRK from our stupid DNS fiasco mixed with the post filtering. August 20th, 7lbs, 14oz, 8:30pm. Greg Geege Schuman wrote: > > Aren't you Dr. Gregory A. Bolcer, Dutch Uncle of P2P? > > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of > Gregory Alan Bolcer > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:21 AM > To: FoRK > Subject: introductions > > As I've had to resubscribe to fork and fork-noarchive, > I guess I have to reintroduce myself. I'm formerly > known as gbolcer at endtech dot com to the FoRK > mailman program, formerly an overposter, and love > soaking up bits through avid reading or scanning > of almost every single list that's got informative to say. > > Hopefully all those overpost will get cleared out at > somepoint and fork-archived. > > Greg

Re: RSA (repost) "Adam L. Beberg" wrote: > > So, who has done RSA implementation before? > Having a typo-I-cant-spot problem with my CRT... > > - Adam L. "Duncan" Beberg > http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ > beberg@mithral.com > > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork Done a ton of them, both with and without their stuff. With is definitely easier.[1] Greg [1] http://www.endeavors.com/PressReleases/rsa.htm Endeavors Technology and RSA Security Form Strategic Partnership to Enhance SSL Performance in Secure, Enterprise-Scalable P2P Computing Endeavors Technology and RSA Security combine their respective peer-to-peer Magi Enterprise Web collaboration and RSA BSAFE� software for SSL users to instantly extend security and improve performance of desktop and corporate data sharing, and Web interaction between workgroups inside and across corporations. Irvine (CA) and Cambridge (UK), September 12, 2002 - Secure web collaboration software leader Endeavors Technology, Inc. today announced a technology sharing and marketing agreement with RSA Security Inc. the most trusted name in e-security.� This strategic partnership is aimed at extending the security and improving the performance of the standard SSL security protocol used by every e-based desktop, laptop and server. Under the terms of the agreement, RSA Security's trusted security tools are embedded into Endeavors Technology's award-winning Magi Enterprise software product. The combined solution enables IT managers and users to simply extend security and encryption to every Magi-enabled device for the direct device-to-device sharing and interaction of corporate data and workflow between workgroups within and beyond the enterprise. Secure collaboration between desktops and corporate systems calls for enterprises to build complex and costly network infrastructures. This combination of technologies from the two companies eliminates both overheads, and also the need for specific security tools for each desktop application such as Microsoft Project. With Magi's secure RSA Security-based peer environment, collaboration can now be rapidly, easily and securely extended across all devices and company firewalls, and workgroups can interact with colleagues, partners and clients without concern in compromising corporate information. This brings true Internet scaling to corporations needing to interact highly securely with strong encryption and authentication across firewalls. "In these challenging times, there can be no compromise in safeguarding corporate data and knowledge," says Bernard Hulme, chairman and CEO of Endeavors Technology. "Embedding RSA Security encryption software into Magi products provides IT managers with added assurance, speed and cost savings, and a proven security net to accelerate the deployment of business-centric peer-to-peer computing" Endeavors Technology joins the RSA Secured� Partner Program. The program is designed to ensure complete interoperability between partner products and RSA Security's solutions including RSA SecurID� two-factor authentication, RSA ClearTrust� Web access management, RSA BSAFE� encryption and RSA Keon� digital certificate management. The strategic partnership paves the way for Magi Enterprise to bear the RSA Secured brand on product packaging and advertising, be listed in RSA Secured Partner Solutions directories, and have RSA Security's out-of-the-box, certified interoperability. It will also lead to joint marketing and promotional activities between the two firms, mutual field sales engagement opportunities on joint accounts, and 24x7 worldwide business continuity support. "Endeavors Technology is taking a leadership role by providing the highest-level of security in its enterprise products and streamlining the deployment process for IT managers," says Stuart Cohen, director of partner development at RSA Security. "By combining our products, enterprise customers have a solution that provides encryption and authentication across firewalls." About Magi Magi Enterprise 3.0, an award-winning web collaboration system, transforms today's Web into a highly secure inter- and intra-enterprise collaboration network. For the first time, enterprises can implement ad-hoc Virtual Private Networks for collaboration very rapidly and affordably without disrupting existing applications, networks or work practices. Magi Enterprise 3.0 does this by effectively transforming unsecured, "read-only" Web networks into two-way trusted and transparent collaboration environments, through the use of such features as cross-firewall connections, advanced data extraction, an intuitive graphical interface, and universal name spaces generating "follow me URLs" for mobile professionals. About RSA Security, Inc. RSA Security Inc., the most trusted name in e-security, helps organizations build secure, trusted foundations for e-business through its RSA SecurID two-factor authentication, RSA ClearTrust Web access management, RSA BSAFE encryption and RSA Keon digital certificate management product families. With approximately one billion RSA BSAFE-enabled applications in use worldwide, more than ten million RSA SecurID authentication users and almost 20 years of industry experience, RSA Security has the proven leadership and innovative technology to address the changing security needs of e-business and bring trust to the online economy. RSA Security can be reached at www.rsasecurity.com. About Endeavors Technology, Inc. Endeavors Technology, Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of mobile computing and network infrastructure vendor Tadpole Technology plc (www.tadpole.com), which has plants and offices in Irvine and Carlsbad (California), and Cambridge, Edinburgh, and Bristol (UK). For further information on Endeavors' P2P solutions, call 949-833-2800, email to p2p@endeavors.com, or visit the company's website www.endeavors.com. Copyright 2002 Endeavors Technology, Inc. Magi, and Magi Enterprise are registered trademarks of Endeavors Technology, Inc. RSA, BSAFE, ClearTrust, Keon, SecurID, RSA Secured and The Most Trusted Name in e-Security are registered trademarks or trademarks of RSA Security Inc. in the United States and/or other countries. All other products and services mentioned are trademarks of their respective companies. � 2002 Endeavors Technology, Inc., 19600 Fairchild, Suite 350, Irvine, CA 92612, phone 949-833-2800, fax 949-833-2881, email info@endeavors.com. All rights reserved; specifications and descriptions subject to change without notice.

Harvest Moon http://spineless.org/~mod/pix/octoberMoon.jpg -- #ken P-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!"

Re: Slaughter in the Name of God >>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams <sdw@lig.net> writes: S> A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its S> past? Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc. Rastafari. That is, if you concede that of the two founding branches, only the one founded by the Nyabingi were legit and the others were thinly-veneered anti-colonial hooligans. There is also Vietnamese Buddhism, unless you count setting fire to oneself as a "foul action". S> C) Many splinter Christianity religions have 'clean hands' but S> they also aren't 'found in the wild'. You'd have to explain "found in the wild". For example, I know of no violence perpetrated by the South Pacific "Cargo Cults" outside of a pretty darn /mean/ game of cricket. S> D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently S> more or less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of S> friction generated by splitting society too much along S> religious lines. One Post article pointed out that the problem S> basically stemmed from the vertical integration of areas along S> religious lines all the way to schools, government, political S> party, etc. (Of course both cases have a heritage of British S> conquest, but who doesn't?) When we launched the Native Net in 1989, one of the first things we noticed on networking aboriginal groups around the world is that the British Army, with the US Army as a proxy by extension, were the common thread. Where neither was present (physically or through influence) there /tended/ to be less violence. The issue in Ireland is complex, but rest assured that religious aspects are only a co-incidence of the invader/colonials being predominantly members of the Royal-headed Anglicans and the aboriginal population being predominantly members of the Pope-headed Catholics. The conflict itself has nothing to do with ideology or practice, since the Anglican Church is a near-identical clone of Catholicism. (now I bet that's going to attract some healthy debate ;) S> .. most Protestants are unionists who want the S> province to remain part of Britain. Mebst. Mebst. It's the other way around. Most Unionists are protestants. It's their _Unionism_ that is the source of the conflict, not their sacriments. S> ... Police records and historians agree that the most lethal S> group by far was the IRA, fighting on the Catholic side with a S> goal of a united Ireland And which side of the colonial fence do you suppose the Police and Historians sit? If the Russians had invaded the USA as feared in episodes such as the Bay of Pigs, would the Americans have organized to become a "lethal force", or would they have just said, "Oh well, there goes /that/ democracy!" and settle in under communist rule? Just wondering. >> 2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion. It is interesting to me that the Canadian media is trying to paint Chretien as some sort of buffoon for saying that 3rd-world poverty was a major contributor to 9-11. If they'd /watch/ his now-infamous interview, they'd see that it's still us-against-hooligans, but his point is that the hooligans would not be able to find friendly states so easily if those states were not so bled-dry by the west. The same is true of street-gangs: When people are disenfranchised, it's easier to offer them the Triad as a new family. You get cellphones, cars, a dry place to live. Triad, biker gangs, mafia, the IRA, Al Queda ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that escalation of violence is not a solution. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications - blog: http://www.auracom.com/~teledyn - biz: http://teledyn.com/ - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)

Re: Slaughter in the Name of God Gary Lawrence Murphy said: > >>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams <sdw@lig.net> writes: > S> A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its > S> past? Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc. > Rastafari. > That is, if you concede that of the two founding branches, only the > one founded by the Nyabingi were legit and the others were > thinly-veneered anti-colonial hooligans. > There is also Vietnamese Buddhism, unless you count setting fire to > oneself as a "foul action". What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW? They seem like an awfully nice bunch of chaps (and chapesses). > When we launched the Native Net in 1989, one of the first things we > noticed on networking aboriginal groups around the world is that the > British Army, with the US Army as a proxy by extension, were the > common thread. Where neither was present (physically or through > influence) there /tended/ to be less violence. > > The issue in Ireland is complex, but rest assured that religious > aspects are only a co-incidence of the invader/colonials being > predominantly members of the Royal-headed Anglicans and the aboriginal > population being predominantly members of the Pope-headed Catholics. > The conflict itself has nothing to do with ideology or practice, since > the Anglican Church is a near-identical clone of Catholicism. > > (now I bet that's going to attract some healthy debate ;) Man, I'm not going *there* again ;) I'll agree, though, that the ideology or practices of the religions have very little to do with the conflict. > The same is true of street-gangs: When people are disenfranchised, > it's easier to offer them the Triad as a new family. You get > cellphones, cars, a dry place to live. Triad, biker gangs, mafia, the > IRA, Al Queda ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long > as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that > escalation of violence is not a solution. Well said! --j.

Re: Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review Chuck Murcko wrote: > > The usual crud. Why do morons ranting and beating their chests in the > > National Review (or similar rags) merit FoRKing? > Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here. [...] It must be so great in the US. The rest of us live in caves and have no such thing as free speech. BTW, I wasn't aware that the 1st Amendment mandated that crap must be FoRKed. > You can just ignore it if you wish. I will, thanks. > But I must feel obligated to defend to the death your right to do so. �Je d�sapprouve ce que vous dites, mais je d�fendrai jusqu'� ma mort votre droit de le dire� - Arouet Le Jeune, dit �Voltaire� (1694-1778). R

Re: Slaughter in the Name of God On Tue, 2002-09-17 at 12:50, Justin Mason wrote: > What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW? They seem like an awfully nice bunch > of chaps (and chapesses). They were the ruling class of a feudal, farming society for quite some time; I believe there were more than a few issues there. Certainly, not everyone in Tibet is as excited about the Dalai Lama as Hollywood appears to be. [Not that the Chinese are much better rights-wise, but they've actually built roads and such, which led to the creation of merchant classes and the like that never existed under the Tibetans.] Luis

FW: Wanna buy a nuke? I have been told to take anything read in Pravda with a grain of salt... but this article certainly looks impressive when paired together with this other one from the associated press... Just the concept makes me shudder, imagining how easy it must be to smuggle these things around some parts of Europe right now. Hopefully, it's just my imagination. -- Michael Cummins Fort Lauderdale, FL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/09/13/36519.html 11:14 2002-09-13 200 SOVIET NUKES LOST IN UKRAINE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=518&ncid=518&e=51&u=/ap/200 20903/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_iraq_3 Ukraine-Iraq Arms Deals Alleged Tue Sep 3, 6:07 PM ET By TIM VICKERY, Associated Press Writer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Rohit Khare - I wish you the best of luck in your search. I found *my* Very Special Lady when I was intentionally looking elsewhere... you never know what lurks around every corner. Love certainly has its *own* agenda. --------------------------------------------------------------- Scanned for viruses by the advanced mail servers at advantageservices.net

Re: Hanson's Sept 11 message in the National Review On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 10:19:13AM -0700, Chuck Murcko wrote: > Probably because we have this pesky 1st Amendment thing here. Still, > lots of us in the States have developed a disturbing tendency to shout > down or (in recent years) shackle in legal BS opinions, thoughts, and > individual behaviors we don't agree with. > Except that parroting the party line doesn't really require much freedom of speech. Now if you had posted something from a left of center source, you would have been shouted down in flames, buried in ad hominem attacks, and probably get your name added to an FBI list. Besides the basic rule in the United States now is "I'll defend your rights to say anything you want, but if it isn't appropriately neoconish, well, don't expect to work": HHS Seeks Science Advice to Match Bush Views By Rick Weiss Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, September 17, 2002; Page A01 The Bush administration has begun a broad restructuring of the scientific advisory committees that guide federal policy in areas such as patients' rights and public health, eliminating some committees that were coming to conclusions at odds with the president's views and in other cases replacing members with handpicked choices. ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26554-2002Sep16.html Owen

Re: Slaughter in the Name of God >>>>> "J" == Justin Mason <jm@jmason.org> writes: J> What about Tibetan Buddhism BTW? They seem like an awfully J> nice bunch of chaps (and chapesses). Yes, them too. When wolves attack their sheep, they coral the wolf into a quarry and then throw rocks from the surrounding cliffs so that "no one will know who killed the wolf" In Samskar, before the Chinese arrived, there had not been a killing in over 2000 years, and the last recorded skirmish, over rights to a water hole, had happened several generations ago. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications - blog: http://www.auracom.com/~teledyn - biz: http://teledyn.com/ - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)